Katie Couric: Is Objectivity Dead?

Trevor and Eugene sit down with author and journalist Katie Couric, who has spent decades at the center of American news, for a wide-ranging conversation about how journalism has evolved. From her early days in traditional broadcast media to her role in today’s digital landscape, Couric has seen the shift from a handful of trusted voices delivering the news to a fragmented, fast-moving media environment where competing narratives often shape how stories are understood. From the evolution of political identity to the influence of social media, the three explore how the way we consume news has changed, and what it might take to rebuild a shared sense of truth in a world that increasingly resists one.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:04Speaker 00

  Who is doing the news in South Africa?

• 0:07Trevor Noah?

  So in South Africa, there's the South African Broadcasting Corporation, which is similar to the BBC, right? In that it's state-funded. Modeled after the BBC. Yeah, it's modeled after the BBC. And then it's state-funded. People pay a fee, you know, for having a TV. It's like a nominal fee. And that basically goes to funding it and their reporting. Then we have a few independent stations as well. But none of them have a clear...

• 0:32Speaker 00

  Ideological bent?

• 0:33Trevor Noah?

  No, no, no. That would be, I think most people agree, that would be crazy. Like, we wouldn't, we just...

• 0:38Speaker 00

  Like, there's not the Pro-Apartheid Network?

• 0:43Trevor Noah?

  Oh, my goodness, Katie. Can you imagine? The Pro-Apartheid Network? Oh, my goodness, what a great idea.

• 0:51Speaker 00

  The PAN? Hi, we're, welcome to PAN.

• 0:59Speaker 02

  Oh, wow, my replacement.

• 1:01Speaker 03

  Oh, wow. What a fantastic premise.

• 1:09Trevor Noah?

  This is What Now? with Trevor Noah.

• 1:16Trevor Noah?

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• 1:51Trevor Noah?

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• 2:36Trevor Noah?

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• 3:20Trevor Noah?

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• 3:58Speaker 00

  Oh, this is gonna be fun.

• 3:59Trevor Noah?

  Yesterday, we wore, both wore cardigans.

• 4:03Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 4:03Trevor Noah?

  What a fashion disaster. It was terrible.

• 4:05Speaker 00

  Was it?

• 4:05Trevor Noah?

  Well, it wasn't a disaster, it was more, it looked too coordinated. Hundred percent a disaster.

• 4:10Speaker 00

  Very Mr. Rogers.

• 4:11Trevor Noah?

  Yes, yes, double Mr. Rogers. No, so I was like, no, it will never happen again. So today I had a backup plan. I was like, if he's wearing brown, I'm covered. Oh, you're gonna switch it out, okay.

• 4:24Speaker 00

  I really like that jacket.

• 4:25Trevor Noah?

  I don't know why you-

• 4:25Speaker 00

  Well, you both do kinda have a similar thing going.

• 4:28Trevor Noah?

  I'm, he's trying to avoid me and I'm trying, I'm trying to fully, fully line up with him.

• 4:33Speaker 00

  Is that good?

• 4:34Trevor Noah?

  I'm trying to make sure that our, our friendship is fully aligned. That's what I'm looking for. I don't want him to be able to escape me.

• 4:42Trevor Noah?

  I want people to be like, are you guys twins? That's how closely aligned I want our dress sense to be.

• 4:47Speaker 00

  How often do you record your podcast?

• 4:49Trevor Noah?

  Whenever.

• 4:50Speaker 00

  Whenever?

• 4:51Trevor Noah?

  Yeah.

• 4:51Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 4:51Trevor Noah?

  Whenever is whenever. So, you know, we'll fly in from South Africa and then we'll do a bunch of episodes and we'll come in. But then sometimes we're doing them, you know, like one spaced out and then it's, but it's whenever.

• 5:02Speaker 00

  You don't feel that you need to have a specific cadence for, like, to, when people expect it?

• 5:07Trevor Noah?

  No, no. What's, what's your cadence now in life? What do you?

• 5:10Speaker 00

  Well, we do sort of a tranche of them, if you will, you know.

• 5:15Trevor Noah?

  Tranche, I like that word.

• 5:16Speaker 00

  We have sort of, you know, a, when does, a season, but then-

• 5:21Trevor Noah?

  Yeah.

• 5:22Speaker 00

  We're not really doing seasons as much because I'm really responding mostly to news-

• 5:27Trevor Noah?

  Right.

• 5:27Speaker 00

  -as it happens. So, you know, it's funny, you guys, cause I, every platform, I do different stuff.

• 5:34Trevor Noah?

  Yeah, I've seen that, yeah.

• 5:36Speaker 00

  You know, you have to be kinda multi-platform. So, like, tomorrow I'm doing a Substack show.

• 5:41Trevor Noah?

  Wow.

• 5:42Speaker 00

  Yeah, which I do once a week. And then I do the podcast slash videocast and then-

• 5:49Speaker 00

  You know, um, yeah, I think that's primary. Then we have a newsletter. And sometimes I do just kind of straight to camera reports on Instagram. You know, like I explain what the SAFE Act really is.

• 6:03Trevor Noah?

  Mm hmm, mm hmm. Um. I think I saw one of those about, I feel like it was about Iran or something.

• 6:09Speaker 00

  It might have been about the Pentagon.

• 6:11Trevor Noah?

  Yes, maybe, maybe, yeah, yeah.

• 6:12Speaker 00

  And what they're doing and how they're trying to keep journalists out of the Pentagon.

• 6:16Trevor Noah?

  Yep.

• 6:17Speaker 00

  There's so much misinformation, so I just, I just try to kind of give the facts and like the timeline of what happened at the Pentagon and why they were kicking some outlets out and bringing other outlets in. And, um, you know, just, I think there's so much information assaulting people every minute that sometimes I just try to say, hey, this is what the SAFE Act does, or this is why they're looking at redistricting in Virginia.

• 6:46Trevor Noah?

  Yeah.

• 6:47Speaker 00

  Let me give you a little bit of the backstory so you understand. Because I think it's, it's really hard to process everything, don't you think?

• 6:54Trevor Noah?

  There's too, there's too much of everything, everywhere, all the time. I, I, I, I always think to myself, we think that we should judge people because they're uninformed. And I think we should actually process it a completely different way. I think people have too much information.

• 7:11Speaker 00

  I agree.

• 7:12Trevor Noah?

  And a lot of that, you, you, you, you just aren't able to parse the information. Is it good? Is it bad? Where does it come from? Where should it come from? Like back in the day, I mean, you, you.

• 7:20Speaker 02

  How long is?

• 7:21Trevor Noah?

  What?

• 7:22Speaker 02

  Because these things happen all the time, Katie. He'll say statements as if he was there during George Washington era.

• 7:27Speaker 00

  (laughing).

• 7:28Speaker 02

  And he would say, back in the day, so it's my job to save you from the, how, how long is back in the day? Give us a timeline of.

• 7:35Trevor Noah?

  Actually, we, we have one of.

• 7:37Speaker 00

  I, I am the, I am the physical manifestation of back in the day. Yes, it is, it is me, Eugene. Uh, that, that will be my new chiron, Katie Couric, back in the day.

• 7:53Speaker 00

  Because that's me.

• 7:55Trevor Noah?

  No, but you were, you saw, I mean, I would argue that you came from like, like a golden age of news in the United States. When we think to a time of news, you are from that era. And then you rose to become one of the superstars of that era. And then, I don't want to sound too, you know, pessimistic about it, but I almost feel like you, you also seen it sort of come to an end in some ways.

• 8:21Speaker 00

  Oh, yeah, definitely. I think, well, you know, I guess, I think most people might look back on the era of Walter Cronkite.

• 8:31Trevor Noah?

  Yes.

• 8:31Speaker 00

  You know, back that long ago as the golden era of TV news. Of course, it was an era, era when, you know, most of the newscasters and reporters were white men, right? And not diverse at all. But there were just a handful, a very small group of authoritative figures.

• 8:53Trevor Noah?

  Right.

• 8:53Speaker 00

  Who you went to and you believed.

• 8:55Trevor Noah?

  The trusted people.

• 8:56Speaker 00

  Trusted people.

• 8:57Trevor Noah?

  In inverted commas, yeah.

• 8:58Speaker 00

  And, and, and it's interesting. I was thinking the other day about Walter Cronkite, when he said, talked about Vietnam, honestly, and talked about how it wasn't a winnable war, whatever he said specifically. And LBJ said, if we've lost Walter Cronkite, we've lost America.

• 9:16Trevor Noah?

  Wow.

• 9:17Speaker 00

  And, you know, I think that, I was actually thinking about that because there was a modern day example, which now I can't remember. But it just, these people had such, there was so much trust in these figures. And similarly, with a handful of newspapers, with the Washington Post, which I read every morning growing up. Actually, my dad read it and I watched him at the breakfast table. But, you know.

• 9:42Trevor Noah?

  Yeah, that's, that's how part of life was.

• 9:44Speaker 00

  It was, it was believed and trusted. And then, of course, you had this evolution. You had 24 hour news networks, you had cable, you had then the bifurcation of liberal cable versus conservative. You had Fox News, Philip Boy.

• 10:01Trevor Noah?

  That's what you guys have over here. Yeah, we don't have that.

• 10:03Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, we don't have it. It's just news is just news. You guys have these kind of people's news and these other people's news.

• 10:09Speaker 00

  And how do you, who is doing the news in South Africa?

• 10:13Trevor Noah?

  So in South Africa, there's the South African Broadcasting Corporation, which is similar to the BBC, right, in that it's state-funded.

• 10:20Speaker 02

  Modeled after the BBC.

• 10:21Trevor Noah?

  Yeah, it's modeled off the BBC and then it's state-funded. People pay a fee, you know, for having a TV. It's like a nominal fee and that basically goes to funding it and their reporting. Then we have a few independent stations as well, but none of them have a clear.

• 10:37Speaker 00

  Ideological bent?

• 10:38Trevor Noah?

  No, no, no, that would be, I think most people agree, that would be crazy. Like, we wouldn't, we wouldn't, we just.

• 10:44Speaker 00

  Like there's not the Pro-Apartheid Network?

• 10:46Trevor Noah?

  Oh, my goodness, Katie. Can you imagine? The Pro-Apartheid Network. Oh, my goodness, what a great idea.

• 10:57Speaker 00

  The PAN? Hi, we're, welcome to PAN.

• 11:01Speaker 02

  You are my replacement.

• 11:06Trevor Noah?

  What a fantastic premise.

• 11:09Speaker 00

  But I do, I do have a question. So is there criticism from the, the population?

• 11:16Trevor Noah?

  Definitely.

• 11:17Speaker 00

  That feels, or segment of the population that feels that the news as it's presented in South Africa is biased?

• 11:25Trevor Noah?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 11:26Speaker 00

  And, and, and how big is the outcry and what is the response by the, by the publications or the networks?

• 11:34Trevor Noah?

  What would you say?

• 11:35Speaker 00

  Or the network, I guess, singular.

• 11:37Speaker 02

  So in South Africa, the debate will always be after democracy, will always be with a white party ruling South Africa ever again. So there's a party called the Democratic Alliance, which is, leadership is white, but obviously they've always been opposing the ANC, which is majority black. So sometimes news readers and some other news channels would favor stories that the DA are doing. But just because they're in the news, they'd look like they're being favored, right? Doesn't make sense?

• 12:05Speaker 00

  Right, yes, yes.

• 12:06Speaker 02

  Then the people on Twitter, obviously because they follow the same politicians and they get to see what they're doing. When the news comes on once a day about that specific politician, it looks like it suits the agenda of the politician.

• 12:16Speaker 00

  Right.

• 12:17Speaker 02

  But we were having this discussion the other day, we were saying.

• 12:20Trevor Noah?

  The newsmakers are now trying to make their own news. If something sells, they'll go with it. If people are talking about it, if they see it on social media, they'll obviously go for it. But if the other party is doing nothing on social media, there's nothing to talk about. Does it make sense?

• 12:34Speaker 00

  Yeah, so, so are you saying that politicians are now bypassing news altogether and just speaking directly?

• 12:41Trevor Noah?

  In many ways they are, yeah.

• 12:42Speaker 00

  And co-opting whatever message seems to be.

• 12:45Trevor Noah?

  Exactly.

• 12:45Speaker 00

  Um, you know, trending, if you will, at any moment in time. But is it, how, how divisive is it, uh, in terms of?

• 12:53Trevor Noah?

  It's not like, no, it's not like the US. No, no, no, it's nowhere close to the US. No. Nowhere close.

• 12:57Speaker 00

  And why do you think that is?

• 13:00Trevor Noah?

  Again, I think it's just because. It, it.

• 13:03Speaker 00

  Is it leadership?

• 13:04Trevor Noah?

  In most countries I've been to, people have some form of criticism for the news, right? So when I'm in England, people complain about the BBC. The BBC will even send out, um, regular sort of polls and questionnaires to its, to its audience. Do you feel like we're not covering this enough? Do you feel like we should be covering this more, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera? And people will complain about the BBC in everything. How did they handle the Epstein files and Prince Andrew? And how did they handle Israel, Palestine? And how have they handled? People will complain about that. In most places I've been to, people complain about the news in some way, shape or form. In the US, what's different is. Your news presents different realities.

• 13:45Speaker 00

  Right.

• 13:45Trevor Noah?

  That's something that I don't see in most places. Where it's like completely, I've flipped between channels sometimes just to see.

• 13:54Speaker 00

  Me too, I do that often.

• 13:55Trevor Noah?

  It's pretty wild how it's like, either one, one's news, news station is covering it and the other one isn't completely.

• 14:03Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 14:03Trevor Noah?

  Or they are presenting completely different stories about the same thing. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And not even perspectives. Perspectives would almost be like. Um, the Artemis rocket has has taken off. It is flying around the earth. Why are we wasting money on this? This is the greatest thing for mankind. Those are perspectives.

• 14:22Speaker 00

  Right.

• 14:23Trevor Noah?

  The one in America is like, it's like, uh, the rocket has taken off. There's no rockets.

• 14:28Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 14:28Trevor Noah?

  Wait, what?

• 14:29Speaker 00

  This didn't even happen.

• 14:30Trevor Noah?

  Yes.

• 14:31Speaker 00

  Right?

• 14:31Trevor Noah?

  Yeah.

• 14:31Speaker 00

  This didn't happen. This is not true. Or, as you said, you know, Trevor, basically just ignoring it altogether.

• 14:39Trevor Noah?

  Completely, yeah.

• 14:40Speaker 00

  Completely ignoring it. It's it's wild. I was thinking about the Walter Cronkite thing the other day because of Tucker Carlson. And I was thinking, is Donald Trump saying to himself, if I've lost Tucker Carlson, I've lost America? But I think he's not, because Tucker Carlson, as powerful a voice that that he has, I think, you know, is just a tiny slice of MAGA world.

• 15:09Trevor Noah?

  You think he's a tiny slice?

• 15:11Speaker 00

  Well, I don't know. When I think about, I have to look at his viewers. But I don't think he is, I don't think, I don't know. I I guess the the time will tell whether he and other defectors, right? Like Megyn Kelly and all these other people. I'm not sure if Donald Trump enthusiasts will follow their lead. I don't know. What do you guys think?

• 15:35Trevor Noah?

  So there's a strange phenomenon that I've noticed in and around Trump world, and it's that

• 15:43Trevor Noah?

  there's a, there's sort of a separation between Trump and his actions. And I still don't fully understand how to process it. But I've noticed many people who are Trump supporters will criticize Trump's actions. But then somewhere in their sentences, they'll say, but I like Trump.

• 16:01Speaker 00

  Or, but he's better than the other guy.

• 16:04Trevor Noah?

  Yeah, or but but but in some way, they'll they'll basically.

• 16:06Speaker 00

  Personalize it.

• 16:07Trevor Noah?

  Yeah, and they'll.

• 16:08Speaker 00

  That's why they call it the cult of personality, right? They don't call it the cult of policy.

• 16:12Trevor Noah?

  This is true. Right? Yeah, but what they'll do, interestingly, is they will, they'll almost excuse him from his actions.

• 16:23Trevor Noah?

  And when he does something that they do not like, okay, so let's use an example, a concrete example. When Donald Trump posted a picture of himself, like an AI-generated image of him as Jesus healing the sick, or healing people. When his base was like really, really, really angry about that, understandably, they were like, how, what are you doing? This is blasphemy. The amount of people in the comments of his post saying, take this down, this is not you, um, I love everything you do, this is, this is not, something must have gone wrong here, Mr. President, please, someone has your phone.

• 16:59Speaker 02

  People were defending that action.

• 17:01Speaker 00

  They weren't defending it, they were advising him.

• 17:05Speaker 02

  Not to do that.

• 17:05Speaker 00

  And they were incredulous that he had done that, and they were convinced that he had made a mistake.

• 17:10Trevor Noah?

  Yes, that's what I mean.

• 17:11Speaker 00

  That it wasn't intentional.

• 17:12Trevor Noah?

  But they had separated his mistake from him, which I find very interesting. Do you, do you get what I'm saying? Same thing goes with Iran. People go, this president said he's not gonna go to war. I voted for him because he said he's not gonna be dropping bombs on other countries. I voted for him because he said the price of gas was gonna come down. And then you're like, so what does that mean for you? And they go, well, clearly, he, he, he's being influenced by the wrong people and, and, you know, this is not what he wants.

• 17:40Speaker 00

  Or they'll say, he got rid of a terrible regime, and he was the only person who had the balls to do it.

• 17:51Trevor Noah?

  Oh, yes.

• 17:51Speaker 00

  And we're not gonna be in a long, protracted conflict, and, uh, what he did, I, I, I think there's this macho undercurrent too, you know, this, this display of raw power.

• 18:05Trevor Noah?

  Strong man.

• 18:06Speaker 00

  That, that people are attracted to as well. And while they may have, have doubts about the action and are not necessarily thinking about the geopolitical ramifications.

• 18:17Trevor Noah?

  Yeah.

• 18:18Speaker 00

  There's something about sort of the brute force, the Pete Hegseth, you know, the ethos of the military, that the US is once again proving who's in charge.

• 18:28Trevor Noah?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 18:29Speaker 00

  That is, I think, very sort of subconsciously or consciously appealing to some of these folks as well.

• 18:36Trevor Noah?

  It, it, it's definitely that. And, and on top of all of it.

• 18:42Trevor Noah?

  I blame part of it on the sort of sportsification of politics in America. In that, in America, politics has become the way sports is. In that you have a team. Mm hmm. You stick to that team forever. You, and again, please correct me if I'm wrong here, but I distinctly remember watching American television and watching American people, regular people get interviewed about their lives, about everything. I would commonly hear people say the phrase, you know, well, my mom was a Republican, my dad was a Democrat. Oh, my dad was a Democrat, my mom was a Republican, but they'd like say it all the time. People would talk about how their families, and then they wouldn't even say was, they would say voted. Mm hmm.

• 19:25Trevor Noah?

  You know, they go like, my dad voted Republican in the last election. And people would say that on the news, I'd watch interviews, they'd be like, well, I voted Democrat last time, but I'm not happy with things, so I'm gonna vote Republican this time because I'm not. But it was an action as opposed to an identity. Yeah.

• 19:39Speaker 00

  Right, and I was gonna say, I think that is so spot on, that it has become so tribal. And you're, we're talking about why people sort of stick with Trump no matter what. I think changing or pivoting or reconsidering is an assault to their whole identity.

• 20:01Trevor Noah?

  I think to all of us, to be honest.

• 20:02Speaker 00

  I, I think so too.

• 20:03Trevor Noah?

  Like, I, I'll say for myself, if there is something that I have tied my identity to, and that thing falls in some way, my first instinct is to defend it Mm hmm. as opposed to now questioning my worldview and beliefs. Do you know what I mean?

• 20:21Speaker 00

  Oh, totally, I think it's deeply psychological, I think it's primal.

• 20:25Trevor Noah?

  Yeah.

• 20:26Speaker 00

  And very visceral, that, I mean, I find myself that way too. Because if, you know, although I try to check myself, you know, my feed is full of people who agree with me, basically. I try to look at other points of view as well. But my, you know, talk about confirmation bias. On the other hand, this isn't like Mitt Romney and Barack Obama.

• 20:54Trevor Noah?

  No.

• 20:54Speaker 00

  You know, it is, it is not. It is, it is not normal. And so whenever I feel like, gosh, am I rooting against Trump? Does that mean I'm rooting against America? And, and I, I question myself and I question my emotional response to some of the things that happen.

• 21:14Trevor Noah?

  Yeah.

• 21:15Speaker 00

  But I also think this person is dangerous, corrupt. And, uh, you know, it's very difficult for me. And then I'm like, I need to note when he does something positive, right? Like even mentally, I need to be more receptive. Oh, this was a good thing, right?

• 21:39Trevor Noah?

  Right.

• 21:40Speaker 00

  And I think it's hard for many of us who have been inundated with the bad things that he's been doing. The bad choices, the lack of, um, respect for the rule of law and the constitution. The, the self-enrichment of him and his family. I mean, the list goes on and on. The cheering when Robert Mueller dies, you know, just the, so many distasteful things. That, that, that it's hard to kind of even have that little crack to say, oh, that was probably a good idea, a good policy. And maybe that's, that's helpful. Whether it's like, you know, sort of in the first term, the criminal justice reform stuff.

• 22:23Trevor Noah?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, right.

• 22:24Speaker 00

  Right? You know, which arguably was a good thing.

• 22:26Trevor Noah?

  Yeah.

• 22:27Speaker 00

  You know, getting rid of, uh, what minimum, maximum or whatever. And, and people who are being incarcerated. When Kim Kardashian got involved and, you know, you think, well, that's a positive thing.

• 22:39Trevor Noah?

  Yes.

• 22:40Speaker 00

  But the negative stuff, so it's like a tsunami of negative stuff. It's hard to kind of cut, you know, come up and, and, and gasp for air and say, oh, that's good. And then you're like sucked under again.

• 22:53Trevor Noah?

  Right, right.

• 22:54Speaker 00

  By the bad stuff.

• 22:55Trevor Noah?

  I, I'm, I'm surprised that you even experienced that because I've always assumed incorrectly that journalists pull, you know, their inspiration and ideas from a, from a, from a different spiritual realm. Does that make sense? Like I always assume that we, the people who are reading the news are just reading the news. And then journalists are sort of on this ephemeral plane where news is, is merely like a di- a different idea to you. But it, but it's interesting that you are in it. So I'd love to know, how do you then? Or do you even think of putting on different hats as like a a person, a citizen, and then a journalist? How do you, is it even possible to do that?

• 23:40Trevor Noah?

  Or do you always have to remind yourself that you have all hats on at the same time?

• 23:46Speaker 00

  I mean, I think that I have become a citizen journalist.

• 23:50Trevor Noah?

  Oh, interesting.

• 23:51Speaker 00

  I'm a citizen first now and a journalist second because I feel like it is such a perilous time and such a dangerous time that I am paying attention in a different way. And I think, you know, as I said, it's not just policy differences that we're evaluating here. It's not just saying, you know, if you feel morally repulsed by the way ICE was behaving in Minneapolis as a citizen, that deeply offended me.

• 24:32Speaker 00

  And I am not gonna, both sides, like, this is what they're doing? This is how the people of Minneapolis are reacting?

• 24:41Trevor Noah?

  Yeah.

• 24:41Speaker 00

  I mean, I think, looking back on it, even ICE defenders would admit, I would hope many, that it was out of control.

• 24:50Trevor Noah?

  Yeah.

• 24:50Speaker 00

  Things were completely out of control in Minneapolis earlier this year. And so I am also someone who, I feel, has earned the privilege of, at times, experiencing moral outrage at what I'm seeing. And I am not encumbered by, you know, a corporate overlord saying, "You can't say that. You can't do that."

• 25:21Trevor Noah?

  Was that common in your previous job? Like, give me an understanding of what it's like. People often use, you know, phrases like "the mainstream media" and "they don't want you to..." What is your honest assessment or even experience of working in an environment where you are under a corporation and they, how much do they decide what you are or aren't gonna do?

• 25:47Speaker 00

  Well, I think everything, well, first of all, I think there was a lot of separation between sort of the companies and the news divisions. You know, you saw General Electric owned NBC, GE, when I was there.

• 26:00Trevor Noah?

  Yeah.

• 26:01Speaker 00

  And, you know, there were times where if there was a story about GE, we would either not report it or say it's the parent company of NBC.

• 26:12Trevor Noah?

  Okay, okay.

• 26:13Speaker 00

  And, but, but for the most part, these corporations kept out, there was very clear, a very clear line between the corporation and the news division. And they didn't, they didn't mix.

• 26:26Trevor Noah?

  Mm-hmm.

• 26:27Speaker 00

  And now, obviously, there are quid pro quos happening in corporate media and news divisions. So it is a completely different ball of wax. It's like apples and oranges. I can't say like, this is how we did it back in the day because everything has changed.

• 26:46Trevor Noah?

  Oh.

• 26:46Speaker 00

  Trump is basically controlling these huge multimillion dollar consolidation conglomerates, whatever you want to call it, mergers. And they can't merge without the FCC and his administration giving them approval. So they're basically bowing down and saying, we're gonna give you 16 million dollars to, because the Kamala Harris interview was edited in a way that you didn't like, which was complete unadulterated bullshit. That case had no merit.

• 27:26Speaker 00

  But they gave him 16 million dollars, similarly, ABC, with George Stephanopoulos, 15 million dollars because he said sexual assault, I think, instead of, or I think he said rape instead of sexual assault or whatever.

• 27:39Trevor Noah?

  Right, right.

• 27:40Speaker 00

  And normally, I think back in the day, Katie Couric, back in the day, we, we would probably issue an on-air apology, correction.

• 27:49Trevor Noah?

  Correction, yeah.

• 27:50Speaker 00

  But... I don't think anytime I worked at a network would they pay somebody because they were afraid of the ramifications if they didn't.

• 28:02Trevor Noah?

  You would you would feel like it would be like a badge of honor, in fact, you know, I like.

• 28:06Speaker 00

  A badge of honor to what?

• 28:08Trevor Noah?

  To be like sued by a person in the administration, in any administration. I always felt like journalists who came up against like the government, I always felt that that was a badge of honor. We saw it in South Africa. The journalists who were arrested by the apartheid government, it was a badge of honor. You know, the journalists who were in war zones, who were arrested by, you know, rebel factions or the governments that people were trying to overthrow, it was a badge of honor. It always used to be this badge of honor where it's like, oh, we're now going to stand our ground and show you.

• 28:42Speaker 00

  They're speaking truth to power.

• 28:43Trevor Noah?

  Exactly.

• 28:44Speaker 00

  On the other hand, I think, you know, if journalists make mistakes, right?

• 28:47Trevor Noah?

  Oh, yeah, that's different. Yes, yes, yes.

• 28:50Speaker 00

  Or report it, then then I think that's how the how the system works, right? And so I don't think you can say sort of carte blanche that or or generalize that it's a badge of honor all the time, but, you know, it's totally different now, the way they're using their power to suppress stories, to change how the framework of stories or, you know, how a story is positioned. I was talking to a friend the other day about when CBS News did a 16 second reader on January 6, and they were basically saying Hakeem Jeffries said this, Donald Trump said that.

• 29:34Trevor Noah?

  Yeah.

• 29:35Speaker 00

  Now, if there's no universal understanding that January 6 was an insurrection, that people were killed, police officers, and yes, one protester, but that it was an attempt to overturn an election.

• 29:50Trevor Noah?

  Right.

• 29:51Speaker 00

  And and disrupt the peaceful transfer of power.

• 29:54Trevor Noah?

  And hang Mike Pence.

• 29:55Speaker 00

  And hang Mike Pence.

• 29:56Trevor Noah?

  And never forget that. Because they had a sign, they were like, we're coming to hang Mike Pence.

• 29:59Speaker 00

  And throw the election in Donald Trump's favor, then they're just, they're not being truthful.

• 30:06Trevor Noah?

  Yeah.

• 30:07Speaker 00

  That is factually incorrect.

• 30:08Speaker 02

  I think the conflict for anyone doesn't live in America is America has always gone into other countries to try and defend their democracies. And if people voted for this dispensation, aren't there mechanisms in the same constitution to call anything that they don't like from the same dispensation?

• 30:24Speaker 00

  Yes. What? I kind of understood that question.

• 30:30Speaker 02

  So if it's a democratic state

• 30:31Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 30:32Speaker 02

  that is voted in by its citizens, surely there must be a mechanism within the constitution of the same state that can stop things that the people who voted don't like. Do you get what I mean?

• 30:43Trevor Noah?

  It's a yes and no. That's the weird thing, right?

• 30:46Speaker 00

  Yeah, I mean.

• 30:47Trevor Noah?

  The first, the first thing about elections.

• 30:48Speaker 00

  Certifying the election, right? And that's what was happening on Capitol Hill. When this whole riot broke out. So I think you're right, there are steps that will ensure, right, a free and fair election. The question is, if those steps aren't followed by the frigging president of the United States, where does that leave you?

• 31:12Trevor Noah?

  But it's also weird, you know, to your question is like, one of the strange things about democracy is that you are buying something you do not yet have and you've never tested and you've never really owned.

• 31:27Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 31:28Trevor Noah?

  And you're, you're paying for it upfront. So in many ways, I think like, voting is similar to buying a house. You walk in, they show you around, and then you're like, all right, I'll take it for the next however many years of my life. This is for me. And then only when you sleep in it for a week, do you go, I think this shit is haunted. Do you know what I mean?

• 31:48Speaker 00

  Or.

• 31:49Trevor Noah?

  You know?

• 31:50Speaker 02

  Could have just rented.

• 31:51Trevor Noah?

  Yeah, you're like, what, what just happened here? But I think that happens in democracy. We, we take that for granted as a system. It's, it's, it's maybe the best one we know right now. But I do think it's a little bit strange that we go, okay, Eugene, tell me your pitch. Uh, Trevor, I promise you pizza every Friday. All right, I'll, I'll vote for this guy.

• 32:07Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 32:08Trevor Noah?

  And then Eugene comes in and then he's like, I don't like pizza.

• 32:12Trevor Noah?

  It's weird because I voted for you based on like, I do think it is strange that there is no mechanism to hold politicians accountable for the thing they said they were going to do.

• 32:25Speaker 00

  What is that? They're called elections.

• 32:26Trevor Noah?

  No, but that's, no, no, no.

• 32:27Speaker 00

  They're called the next election.

• 32:28Trevor Noah?

  Yeah, but you see, that's too late. That's too late. Okay, now, let's, let's use this analogy somewhere else. Imagine if you went to a car dealership and you said, I want to buy this SUV for my family. They go, yeah, great. It's a seven-seater SUV for you and your family. You go, you sign it, you take it, you drive out of the lot. When you get home, there's two seats. And you're like, what, what, what just happened? And then you phone the dealership and you're like, you said seven seats. And they're like, yeah, we just realized seven seats wasn't going to work, so we switched it to a two-seater and um, you can switch it out in your next lease.

• 32:59Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 33:00Trevor Noah?

  I select to own this car.

• 33:02Speaker 00

  There should be a better business bureau for the government.

• 33:05Speaker 02

  I, I think there should be a better replacement for democracy.

• 33:08Trevor Noah?

  I think there could be.

• 33:09Speaker 00

  No.

• 33:10Trevor Noah?

  Yes, I think so.

• 33:10Speaker 00

  A better replacement for democracy?

• 33:12Trevor Noah?

  For the way we run it, I think there could be.

• 33:13Speaker 00

  Okay, what?

• 33:14Speaker 02

  Because people assume, well, I'll speak for my country. People assume, first of all, in our country, people had to explain to people, which they didn't know in this age of information, that we actually don't vote for the president. We vote for a party. And the party elects people, puts them in parliament. Parliamentarians in their different parties elect a president.

• 33:34Trevor Noah?

  Yeah.

• 33:34Speaker 02

  So we don't choose who the president is. So that's the first part. But what we've done is, I think if democracy was real, we would have to be able to choose in real time all the time. You can't choose once.

• 33:45Trevor Noah?

  See, this is why you're my guy.

• 33:46Speaker 02

  You can't choose once every four years.

• 33:48Speaker 00

  So you, what you, so every day, an election?

• 33:51Trevor Noah?

  This is why we wear the same clothes. This is why we dress the same.

• 33:57Speaker 02

  Polymarketed. So here's the thing. If you vote for a president, you vote for a party, the party elects a representative, the representative. Themselves in parliament elect the president. That person who's the president now elects people that he likes and trusts.

• 34:13Trevor Noah?

  Yeah.

• 34:14Speaker 02

  And then they go on to elect people that they like and trust.

• 34:17Trevor Noah?

  Right.

• 34:17Speaker 02

  In different cabinet positions, in different ministries. So basically, what you've done is you've empowered an institution to create its own sub-institution.

• 34:26Trevor Noah?

  Yes.

• 34:26Speaker 02

  And everyone puts people that they trust over and over and over. Local municipality suffers because people are always looking at the bigger picture, which is the present of the country. And no matter how many times when people are dissatisfied with service delivery, when the president says, but I don't control anything in municipal level.

• 34:43Trevor Noah?

  Yeah.

• 34:43Speaker 02

  No one will believe them because people assume, because you are on the ballot paper, we voted for you, right?

• 34:49Trevor Noah?

  Yeah.

• 34:49Speaker 02

  And also, these mechanisms of little local elections and municipal elections and by-elections, they're never as advertised as the big Super Bowl of elections.

• 34:58Trevor Noah?

  No, they're not. I mean, even here, people don't vote on that level in the same way.

• 35:02Speaker 02

  Yeah, so I think people should be able to select the president, not from just the party, just select the individual, and then also have a say in the individuals that that individual selects.

• 35:13Trevor Noah?

  So I, okay, can I pitch you my idea on this?

• 35:16Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 35:17Trevor Noah?

  I actually think the biggest issue

• 35:20Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 35:20Trevor Noah?

  with politics is individuals.

• 35:24Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 35:24Trevor Noah?

  Let me try and explain this. When somebody goes up and starts a campaign, we know nothing about them. We do not know their ability or inability to do things, for the most part.

• 35:33Speaker 02

  Worse, we don't know their friends.

• 35:36Trevor Noah?

  This is true.

• 35:36Speaker 02

  That they're gonna elect.

• 35:37Trevor Noah?

  We don't know. This is true.

• 35:38Speaker 02

  They will elect their friends.

• 35:40Trevor Noah?

  Yeah, yeah, they'll put people in.

• 35:41Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 35:41Speaker 00

  Or where they're getting their money to run the campaign.

• 35:43Trevor Noah?

  There we go. You see? All of this.

• 35:45Speaker 02

  Oh, no, when I came back in the day.

• 35:49Trevor Noah?

  So, so I think, I think, sometimes when I'm trying to solve a problem, I try and go back to the original idea of what we were trying to solve, right? Why do we have representatives? Hmm. I would argue the reason we have representatives in every system is because it was not feasible for all of us to be contributing or discussing how to do a thing. So we said, hey, we we live at this table. We are the table people. Uh, everyone at other tables also has decisions to make. Hmm. So why don't we send someone from this table? So Katie, you go represent us, please, at the National Table Convention. And tell us what other people from tables are thinking, but let them know that we like certain kinds of tables, please. That made sense. Hmm.

• 36:33Trevor Noah?

  It made sense at a time when there was no internet. It made sense at a time when information couldn't just travel instantly. I think it makes a lot of sense. Yeah, when means of production were controlled by limited few. Completely, completely. We now live in a world where I think we use all this great technology for, in my opinion, like trashy things. And online betting. Yeah, we have online, we have like online sports betting. Yeah. Instant like decisions and you can, to do what? To to bet on a game and then go broke and then, you know, your family is destitute and young men are like homeless and what? We have it for what? Voting on like a singing competition. Hmm. Send us your votes now. That's instant. Hmm. We've got amazing technology, but we use it for like the most gimmicky thing.

• 37:18Trevor Noah?

  Oh, put your opinion online. Imagine if, I know this sounds crazy, but imagine if people could à la carte vote digitally about things that a country is doing. Yes. Instead of having it be one day to pick one person who's going to make all the decisions. For years.

• 37:34Speaker 00

  But having said that, you know, to really explore and analyze an issue takes tons of time. The American people, and I don't know what the situation is in South Africa, it it takes a lot of time, energy and focus to really understand deeply all these issues. Ostensibly, these people are there to really learn, evaluate, have staff people look at things. Now, ideally, right?

• 38:05Speaker 00

  The average American doesn't, who's trying to earn a living, you know, be productive in the world, take care of his or her family.

• 38:13Trevor Noah?

  Right.

• 38:14Speaker 00

  Isn't necessarily going to have the expertise in a certain area, I think. To, I mean, I think they can get involved, they can call their member of Congress, et cetera. But do you believe that that would really work? That every, you know, if, let's say there's an issue of, are you saying, for example, like funding DHS? That we should have a national vote, like American Idol? And people should say how they feel?

• 38:39Trevor Noah?

  So, so, so I, I love that you, that you brought that up because I think it, it's, it captures two elements of politics that I think have broken down. One is the etymology of politics itself, right? From the Greek, poly, for the people, politik, it's like, it is literally the thing for the people of the people. If we, the people, cannot understand the thing, it is wrong, is, is my opinion. Why have you made it so convoluted?

• 39:03Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 39:04Trevor Noah?

  It is easier to understand than you make it. And I think politicians have created a world where they've made it like, uh, look, you, you guys cannot understand this.

• 39:12Speaker 02

  But hey.

• 39:13Trevor Noah?

  Let us do it for you. It's so complicated.

• 39:16Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 39:16Trevor Noah?

  Your tiny little brain cannot understand this.

• 39:19Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 39:19Trevor Noah?

  Just give us your tax and then we will do it for you.

• 39:21Speaker 02

  We'll take care of it.

• 39:22Speaker 00

  The politician just became Indian.

• 39:24Trevor Noah?

  Oh, no, no, no, this is a, just a, a lord, a lord of something.

• 39:28Speaker 02

  But this should, this should be part of what every politician runs on and every citizen should insist on. Administrators should never be touched. So if you think of, in South Africa, for example, the Ministry of Home Affairs.

• 39:40Trevor Noah?

  Yes, yes, you see, I'm like, I'm loving this.

• 39:42Speaker 02

  If a minister comes in, he must not touch.

• 39:44Trevor Noah?

  You see, I'm loving this.

• 39:45Speaker 02

  The general manager, he must not touch the departmental heads. Because these appointments that are because of friendship are the ones that destroy the institution.

• 39:53Trevor Noah?

  Exactly. This guy, do you get?

• 39:55Speaker 02

  Now you're a political figure, appoint, political appointee.

• 39:57Trevor Noah?

  Yes.

• 39:58Speaker 02

  Destroying what the administrator has done for years and years and years and things have been working. And then we let that happen because we assume that they know what they're doing. But this person, just six months ago, was in a political party rally.

• 40:10Trevor Noah?

  Yes.

• 40:10Speaker 02

  And now he walks into Home Affairs and Department of Immigration. And Department of Finance and Department of Health and elects people that he thinks know what he's gonna be doing. And political deployments have never worked.

• 40:21Trevor Noah?

  So this is, so this is what I, this is what I mean by, I agree with you. That most of us do not understand the intricacies of, of the things going on in a bill or the issues, except most of us. But I would, I would argue that most of us also include many of these politicians.

• 40:34Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 40:34Trevor Noah?

  The reason I say this, because if you talk to, as you have, senators, congresspeople, et cetera. First of all, they have a whole barrage of staff. Who processes it for them and then gives them footnotes. And those people, if they're influenced by the right person, choose which footnotes to give or not give. And you've seen it in these hearings sometimes where like, someone will ask a senator themselves, they'll be like, do you know what's in the bill? And then the senator will be like, well, I mean, I, I know what the bill, and then they're like, do you know what's in the bill?

• 41:04Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 41:05Trevor Noah?

  And then it's like, well, I, look, I don't know every single thing. Did you know that in your bill about bridges, there's also a thing here about schools? And then like how pigs should be shipped. What? Pigs. Yeah, yeah, there's a thing about pigs. It's a bridge. Yeah, yeah, this is infrastructure, but there's a thing about pigs.

• 41:22Speaker 02

  You know what it is? We assume that everyone who dispenses medicine is a pharmacist. So when we elect officials, we assume that they know what they're doing.

• 41:30Trevor Noah?

  Yes, that's what I mean.

• 41:32Speaker 02

  We as, we want them to dispense democracy on our behalf. And they keep telling us, you guys are too young to know what this thing is, eh? Let me drive it for you and I'll let you know.

• 41:40Trevor Noah?

  It could be another way, Katie.

• 41:42Speaker 02

  There could be.

• 41:43Speaker 00

  So guys, what are you proposing here?

• 41:46Speaker 02

  We thought you'd never ask.

• 41:49Trevor Noah?

  No, you know what's funny? This is how I'll even, I'll, I'll say it.

• 41:52Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 41:52Trevor Noah?

  Look at what you're doing in your life now. If, if I had come to you three decades ago and said, Katie Couric. I think you can run your own media organization that chooses its own stories.

• 42:05Speaker 02

  From the comfort of your own home.

• 42:06Trevor Noah?

  Yeah, and just, and not even have a time that you actually put something out.

• 42:11Speaker 00

  Right.

• 42:11Trevor Noah?

  There will be no fixed time slots, there will be no time length.

• 42:14Speaker 02

  There will be no overload.

• 42:15Trevor Noah?

  Do you think you would have looked at me and been like, yeah, this sounds feasible?

• 42:19Speaker 00

  No. I would have said you're nuts.

• 42:21Trevor Noah?

  Thank you. That's, that's what I mean. So, and when I look at what you've done today, it's exactly that. It's, it's citizen, you know, citizen journalism where you, you've taken, taken all your expertise, all your experience, all your, everything that you've gained over your lifetime, your connections, your respect, your everything.

• 42:40Speaker 02

  Your knowledge.

• 42:41Trevor Noah?

  And you've created something that is very necessary. And we're seeing many organizations that are doing this. You know, like one of my favorites, like on YouTube, like A More Perfect Union.

• 42:50Speaker 00

  Oh, yes.

• 42:50Trevor Noah?

  Some of the journalism they're doing is like, you're like, wow, why isn't this just everywhere?

• 42:55Speaker 00

  Why is this everywhere? Yes. Or Midas Touch, uh, you know, is doing some great work and Courier News, uh, as well. It's funny because my friend's daughter is, is like the head of all digital content for more, A More Perfect Union.

• 43:10Trevor Noah?

  Oh, okay. Yeah, kudos to them.

• 43:12Speaker 00

  And so it's, it's really interesting.

• 43:15Trevor Noah?

  But that idea seemed crazy. The idea that a, a person could make an album in their bedroom and then send it out to the entire world and the world could choose how to listen to it seemed like a crazy concept, you know? And then look at someone like Billie Eilish.

• 43:29Speaker 00

  But, but, but, but how?

• 43:30Trevor Noah?

  I think for voting, we could do it. And I think we have all the tools now.

• 43:34Speaker 00

  All right. Well, let's talk about that. I mean, I'm just going to challenge both of you. So how would that work practically?

• 43:39Trevor Noah?

  Please leave me out of it.

• 43:39Speaker 00

  Huh? No, it was you. It was you with the grip, the big idea.

• 43:44Trevor Noah?

  I don't want to be challenged.

• 43:45Speaker 00

  So, so I, I, I would love to hear more specifically how this would work pragmatically.

• 43:50Trevor Noah?

  Okay. Here's how I pitch it right now. This is, this is still in beta. This would be the idea, but there's a few things we have to address. So number one is there's a deluge of information, right? And there's a breakdown in how people understand that information. I do think AI has given us a tool that we've never had before in that AI can tell you exactly, it can translate it for you, for you.

• 44:13Trevor Noah?

  Regardless of your aptitude, regardless of your proficiency in a language, AI can help you understand.

• 44:20Speaker 02

  The way you'd understand.

• 44:21Trevor Noah?

  The way you need to understand it, alright? So that's the first thing, I think, is we've now got a tool that can take large amounts of information, synthesize them for you, alright? So that's, that's the first part. The second one is, we already possess digital technology that requires verification and authentication. So people are trading like Bitcoin and all these things, you've got to have your ID in there, you've got to have facial recognition on banking apps. Two-step verification. So there's a measure of security.

• 44:51Speaker 02

  Biometrics.

• 44:52Trevor Noah?

  That is often more intense than voting security right now. So it's like, okay, so there's a way to verify that this is Katie Couric who's making this decision. So that's, I would argue, handled already and, and can keep getting stronger. And then the last one is the instant nature of it. Instead of having bills that are built on other bills, that are built on other bills, that are built that, in my opinion, mean lots of things don't go anywhere. You could just have an à la carte system where people in their cities, in their states, et cetera, are voting on bite-sized ideas, which is how we already consume information. Then you just go, hey, would you like more or less funding for the parks than this? Here's how we're breaking the spending, here's how we're doing this, here's.

• 45:34Trevor Noah?

  I do think there's a way we could simplify the information without diminishing any of its fidelity.

• 45:41Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 45:42Trevor Noah?

  And get people to make decisions as opposed to saying you can make no decision, you can just pick a person and then that's it.

• 45:50Speaker 00

  But there's a lot of things that go into running a country, right?

• 45:54Trevor Noah?

  Yes.

• 45:54Speaker 00

  So are you suggesting that every issue, every decision, every spending cut or increase is voted on by the citizenry?

• 46:04Trevor Noah?

  No, but I do think there's a large part of it. I think we, right now, we're at like zero, is what I argue, alright? Maybe not zero, to be fair, because I guess people vote on, what do you, what do you call those in America?

• 46:14Speaker 00

  The referendum?

• 46:15Trevor Noah?

  Yeah, and also there's the other ones where people go, um.

• 46:20Speaker 00

  Ballot initiatives?

• 46:21Trevor Noah?

  Yes, thank you, ballot initiatives, right? So it's not zero, to be fair, but it's, it's very few. I'm not saying it could, it would be a hundred, because I love bureaucrats. I'm gonna go on record to say, as like Eugene said, my friend over here. You know why? Because bureaucrats make the world move. And we've been conditioned to like hate bureaucracy and hate. No, they're the people who make sure that the bridges are gonna work and make sure that the engineers' numbers match up and they and they make sure that the roads are built and they make sure that the that the drug companies are actually testing and they're looking at the studies and the.

• 46:58Speaker 00

  I think some bureaucrats, I mean, I think bureaucracy has gotten a bad name. And I think there are public servants who do exactly that, serve the public.

• 47:10Trevor Noah?

  Yeah.

• 47:11Speaker 00

  But there's also bureaucracy connotes a certain kind of.

• 47:15Trevor Noah?

  Bloat.

• 47:16Speaker 00

  Bloat, right? And and I think Democrats and Republicans agree that the government had gotten too big and could have been more efficient.

• 47:26Trevor Noah?

  Way more, yes.

• 47:27Speaker 00

  And and and of course, Elon Musk took a literal chainsaw to it where it needed, you know, an X-acto knife, right? And so I think that I agree with you.

• 47:39Trevor Noah?

  His one was weird, though.

• 47:41Speaker 00

  But but, you know, I think we're in this binary world. You can't say bureaucracy is good, bureaucracy is bad.

• 47:46Trevor Noah?

  No, that's why I'm agreeing with you. That's why I'm agreeing. I'm just, you know what's funny about the Elon Musk thing? He took a chainsaw to it. I've never seen somebody take a chainsaw and then somehow cut everything down, but also miss all the trees. Because he didn't save anything. He saved like no money, but everything was destroyed at the same time. You're like, what were you doing with this chainsaw, Elon Musk? Like, no, but to your point, that's what I'm agreeing with. I'm saying, I'm saying, I think there can be a balance.

• 48:16Speaker 02

  He missed everything.

• 48:16Trevor Noah?

  He didn't miss everything. I think there can be a balance where we just find a world where we are a little more involved and politicians are held a little bit more accountable along the way, as opposed to making it like, oh, I guess I'll wait four years to, you know?

• 48:33Speaker 00

  I think that people, I think that Election Day should be a national holiday.

• 48:38Trevor Noah?

  Yeah, I'm loving this, Katie.

• 48:39Speaker 00

  And I think people should be fined if they don't vote.

• 48:43Trevor Noah?

  Wow, wait, wait, let me think of this. Wait, let me think on this. The second one first, let me think on it.

• 48:48Speaker 02

  National holiday.

• 48:49Trevor Noah?

  I'm in, I'm in.

• 48:50Speaker 02

  Fine.

• 48:51Trevor Noah?

  Okay. I'm in, Katie, I'm in.

• 48:52Speaker 00

  Wait, now, I would, I wish I knew at the to- uh, top of my head, does Australia, some country, somebody finds?

• 48:58Trevor Noah?

  You have to, you, in Australia, you have to vote.

• 49:00Speaker 00

  You have to vote, it's mandatory, right? And what happens if you don't?

• 49:04Trevor Noah?

  I do think there's, you get penalized in some way, that's why people vote for like Darth Vader and stuff there. Quite, quite common, you get penalized, I think you get fined.

• 49:12Speaker 02

  Okay, so penalized come from the word penalty?

• 49:15Trevor Noah?

  Yes.

• 49:16Speaker 02

  So you get, okay.

• 49:18Trevor Noah?

  Yes. That's exactly what it is.

• 49:21Speaker 00

  But don't you think, I just feel like-

• 49:22Speaker 02

  Why don't you say penalized? Cause you could have said penalized.

• 49:26Trevor Noah?

  Uh, because I think it's penal, I don't even think it comes from penalty, I think it might come from penal something else.

• 49:32Speaker 02

  Yeah, but penal colonies were penalty colonies. Penitentiary colonies.

• 49:37Trevor Noah?

  Pe- pe- pe- Peloton, Peloton.

• 49:40Speaker 02

  No, wait, no.

• 49:41Trevor Noah?

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• 51:53Trevor Noah?

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• 52:36Trevor Noah?

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• 52:58Speaker 02

  So here's my thing about voting. First of all, I think it's politicians that start.

• 53:04Trevor Noah?

  But wait, can we agree we're in? By the way, you've got our votes.

• 53:06Speaker 02

  Yeah, we're in.

• 53:07Trevor Noah?

  National holiday.

• 53:07Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 53:08Trevor Noah?

  We're completely in.

• 53:08Speaker 02

  And penalty?

• 53:10Trevor Noah?

  Well, I'm in, I'm in on this.

• 53:11Speaker 02

  If you don't go vote.

• 53:12Trevor Noah?

  Yeah, because it's a holiday.

• 53:13Speaker 02

  If you don't exercise your democratic responsibility, not right. Because I think at some point it becomes a responsibility instead of a right.

• 53:18Trevor Noah?

  Okay.

• 53:19Speaker 02

  So here's my thing. I think politicians are the reasons why, or the reason why normal citizens hate bureaucrats. Because they've used words like red tape and bloated. Um, they've, they've used those words to excuse them not being efficient. So they've said, I would love to do this, but yeah, there's so much red tape. But if I put someone that I know who can cut through the red tape, then for four years, someone is putting someone that cuts through the red tape. And as soon as they get there, they don't cut through the red tape because maybe there's no red tape. That's how things work. If you've ordered a thousand buses from Malaysia, it takes one year to make the buses, ship them over here for six months.

• 53:58Trevor Noah?

  Everyone, yeah, everyone. I mean, Trump came and saying that, gonna drain the swamp. I'm gonna drain it. You gotta drain the swamp.

• 54:04Speaker 02

  Who doesn't want the buses to come?

• 54:05Trevor Noah?

  We gotta drain it. And then you go there and you're like, what, what did you drain? I, I mean, turns out it's not a swamp, it's a bathtub. You can't drain the bathtub because we got a bath, we got a bath. That's what it is.

• 54:20Speaker 02

  You know what? You need to be penalized for doing that. Excellent so well. So the second part is, I think there should be categories of who can vote and how many times can they vote.

• 54:34Trevor Noah?

  Whoa, what?

• 54:35Speaker 02

  I'll give you, I'll give you an example.

• 54:36Speaker 00

  What, you live in Chicago?

• 54:37Speaker 02

  Because here, here's my thing. There's banks who, who have more security than governments when it comes to voting.

• 54:43Trevor Noah?

  Okay.

• 54:44Speaker 02

  And there's also buildings that are run more efficiently than governments.

• 54:47Trevor Noah?

  Okay.

• 54:48Speaker 02

  So we can combine those two, we go, people in some buildings who have kids can vote if the place needs to be kid friendly or not. But if you don't have kids or you don't have a dog, I mean, sit this one out.

• 54:59Trevor Noah?

  Oh, this is an interesting idea.

• 55:01Speaker 02

  So we must go.

• 55:01Trevor Noah?

  You're going like granular with the voting.

• 55:03Speaker 02

  Yeah, so if we go, Katie, how many kids do you have? And you go, I've got three kids, they go to school here, he has their age. And then we go, okay, in the voting ballot paper, you get more of a say because you are creating a future for your kids.

• 55:16Trevor Noah?

  Oh, this is an interesting idea. What do you think about that, Katie?

• 55:18Speaker 00

  I don't think that's a good idea.

• 55:19Speaker 02

  Why?

• 55:20Trevor Noah?

  Why not?

• 55:21Speaker 00

  I mean. You're saying that people with kids should have more than one vote?

• 55:26Trevor Noah?

  The same way people with kids get to board the plane first.

• 55:29Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 55:30Trevor Noah?

  So, no, I'd like to know your thoughts on that.

• 55:32Speaker 02

  People with dogs get preferential treatment in the buildings and the parks.

• 55:36Trevor Noah?

  I want to hear what Katie's.

• 55:37Speaker 02

  I don't own a dog, but when I see a dog lover rolling with their dog in a dog park, I'm like, I understand. You wanted this to happen and this is benefiting you, but I, if I was left to vote for your comfort and your dog's comfort, I can tell you now, you and your dog wouldn't be here.

• 55:53Trevor Noah?

  But no, this is an interesting, what do you, what do you think of that?

• 55:55Speaker 00

  I don't think, I don't know. I've never really thought about it and I just don't think it's practical.

• 56:03Speaker 02

  How?

• 56:04Trevor Noah?

  Okay.

• 56:04Speaker 02

  Katie's gonna tell us how.

• 56:06Speaker 00

  You tell me how. All right. So what do you do? A census and are you, you're saying that people?

• 56:11Speaker 02

  When you're registering to vote, obviously the government already knows from the birth certificates of your children, how many children you have.

• 56:17Trevor Noah?

  Can I tell you something? It sounds like a crazy idea. When you said it, I thought it's crazy. When you explain it, there's a, there's a little bit of sense to it in that like.

• 56:28Speaker 00

  It also feeds into Project 2025 where they want more people to have more kids. That, that they feel like that people should be procreating in a much faster rate.

• 56:38Trevor Noah?

  Can I tell you, can we just pause, can we take a tangent on that?

• 56:41Speaker 00

  So what if people say, okay, I'm going to have more kids because I want to have more votes? Is that a good reason to have children?

• 56:48Speaker 02

  No, they would never.

• 56:49Trevor Noah?

  It's not a good reason, but your body's not going to cooperate. Like, good luck, good luck just making kids.

• 56:55Speaker 02

  And no partners as well.

• 56:58Speaker 02

  Yeah, you're in trouble already.

• 56:59Trevor Noah?

  I mean, like, the weird thing about the human body is everyone can say like, I'm gonna have more kids, but your body might be like, no, you're not.

• 57:06Speaker 02

  To your agenda.

• 57:07Trevor Noah?

  You know, it's just a weird.

• 57:09Speaker 00

  I think it's a, it's not a good idea.

• 57:11Trevor Noah?

  Okay.

• 57:12Speaker 00

  And I can't really, really get into all the reasons why, because I have to really think about this.

• 57:17Speaker 02

  But do, would you live in an apartment building that's not kid friendly when you have kids?

• 57:23Speaker 00

  No.

• 57:24Speaker 02

  This, this building says, we don't wanna hear children playing, we don't wanna hear them laughing, we don't wanna hear anything.

• 57:29Speaker 00

  No, I wouldn't.

• 57:30Speaker 02

  You wouldn't live there, right?

• 57:31Speaker 00

  Mm-mm.

• 57:31Speaker 02

  But why do we do that with a country? Why would you do that with a state? That doesn't allow us to express ourselves and our needs and the things that we care about on a granular level, but on a gigantic scale.

• 57:43Speaker 00

  Well, I think you do by voting for people who you think have policies that are gonna be better for your children.

• 57:49Speaker 02

  But we've discovered that they don't even know how the Department of Health works.

• 57:53Trevor Noah?

  It is true.

• 57:54Speaker 02

  They've told us, they're like, I'm a politician.

• 57:56Trevor Noah?

  Okay, how about this, I'll pitch this to you, before we get to our crazy ideas, can I pitch something?

• 58:00Speaker 02

  We haven't gotten there yet.

• 58:01Trevor Noah?

  No, no, no, because we are, no, I'm saying before.

• 58:03Speaker 02

  Oh, the crazy ideas are me.

• 58:03Trevor Noah?

  We haven't won Katie over.

• 58:04Speaker 02

  Okay, okay, yeah.

• 58:05Trevor Noah?

  All right?

• 58:06Speaker 02

  And also Katie's coffee has run out, that's why I think she's so skeptical.

• 58:10Speaker 00

  I'm good, I'm good.

• 58:11Trevor Noah?

  Let's, let's, let's, okay, how about, how about this?

• 58:13Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 58:14Trevor Noah?

  Could I pitch to you, how would you feel if I said? Nobody should be allowed to run a, an area of the government that they don't possess an expertise in? How do you feel about that?

• 58:28Speaker 00

  Good.

• 58:29Trevor Noah?

  Okay, okay, so you would agree, like, cause I, I think it's strange that somebody who has no experience in the field of medicine or science can go and run the fields of medicine and science.

• 58:41Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 58:41Trevor Noah?

  Okay, okay, okay, no, so you're with you there.

• 58:43Speaker 00

  Of course.

• 58:44Speaker 02

  And then here, here's another one, here's another cap.

• 58:45Speaker 00

  What's that have to do with being able to vote more because you have kids?

• 58:49Trevor Noah?

  No, no, I'm just trying to see where we can bring you.

• 58:50Speaker 02

  We're giving.

• 58:51Speaker 00

  Of course, you know I, you know I think that.

• 58:54Trevor Noah?

  I'm trying to like, I'm trying to see.

• 58:55Speaker 00

  Okay, oh, are you, are you, okay, you're building your argument, okay, go on.

• 58:59Trevor Noah?

  No, no, no, I'm just trying to see where, where we get.

• 59:02Speaker 02

  Here, here, here's my other one, here's my other one to add, because now we're going, we're not going extreme, actually, we're going.

• 59:07Trevor Noah?

  These are mediocre.

• 59:08Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 59:08Trevor Noah?

  We're trying to win this voter, a voter of one.

• 59:10Speaker 00

  Okay.

• 59:11Speaker 02

  Every politician that runs to run a certain department must run it, ne?

• 59:17Trevor Noah?

  Yeah.

• 59:17Speaker 02

  Their campaign.

• 59:18Trevor Noah?

  Yeah.

• 59:18Speaker 02

  Together with an elected bureaucrat from that department.

• 59:22Trevor Noah?

  I'm not mad at this.

• 59:23Speaker 02

  So they're like, Department of Health, yes, and then there's Steve, who's been at the Department of Health for a long time.

• 59:29Trevor Noah?

  I like this.

• 59:29Speaker 02

  And then he endorses me, cause Steve thinks. Should I come in here, there's things that I could do at Capital City that he can't do. But there's things that he can do inside there that I can't do. So his running mate is a bureaucrat.

• 59:41Speaker 00

  But what if, what if the, the person who's coming in to power

• 59:46Speaker 02

  Mm-hmm.

• 59:46Speaker 00

  has, has meaningful and important reforms to institute? You get the bureaucrat who is basically adhering to the status quo and saying, this is the way we've always done it. When the person coming in might say, we need to change this, this needs to be done differently.

• 1:00:04Trevor Noah?

  This is a good point.

• 1:00:05Speaker 02

  Yeah, but they'll.

• 1:00:05Trevor Noah?

  How do you respond, Eugene?

• 1:00:06Speaker 02

  They'll need to convince the bureaucrat why, as an outsider, they think that would work when the bureaucrat has been there for twenty years.

• 1:00:12Trevor Noah?

  I don't know, I'm feeling it's getting gummed up now.

• 1:00:14Speaker 02

  Where?

• 1:00:15Trevor Noah?

  Because now they have to convince a bureaucrat. Now I'm a little bit with Katie on this one.

• 1:00:19Speaker 02

  Okay. If, if I've been there for twenty years.

• 1:00:23Trevor Noah?

  Yes.

• 1:00:23Speaker 02

  And I'm telling you, that's how we do a podcast. This is how it's been done. The podcast has been going out.

• 1:00:26Trevor Noah?

  Yeah.

• 1:00:27Speaker 02

  In fact, the fact that you exist as a politician to wanna try and run this department.

• 1:00:31Trevor Noah?

  Yes.

• 1:00:31Speaker 02

  Means that this thing works.

• 1:00:32Trevor Noah?

  Yes.

• 1:00:33Speaker 02

  And then you come and you go, no, my constituency says it could be better here than here. You see, now we're getting to my voters again. But we're not gonna go there. Then the person says, okay, I think if you change this studio and if you change this location, if you change this microphone. Then the person who's a bureaucrat that goes, no, if you change that, this is what would happen.

• 1:00:50Trevor Noah?

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:00:50Speaker 02

  If you don't change this, this is what would happen.

• 1:00:52Speaker 00

  But you're saying, give them equal authority, right?

• 1:00:55Speaker 02

  Because they are running together.

• 1:00:56Trevor Noah?

  I don't know, now I'm with Katie.

• 1:00:58Speaker 00

  I'm sorry.

• 1:00:59Speaker 02

  So you want the politician to be in charge?

• 1:01:01Speaker 00

  I don't know, I mean, is it, you're, you're saying that the politician has to have expertise. So in other words, the person who's running the CDC has to have expertise

• 1:01:11Trevor Noah?

  Yes.

• 1:01:11Speaker 00

  in health, public health.

• 1:01:13Trevor Noah?

  Public health.

• 1:01:13Speaker 00

  And, and etc.

• 1:01:15Trevor Noah?

  Some sort of, yes.

• 1:01:16Speaker 00

  So i- if that's the case, that person to me should have the authority to, and hopefully you have decent people who are intelligent and knowledgeable

• 1:01:25Trevor Noah?

  Hundred percent.

• 1:01:26Speaker 00

  and take information

• 1:01:27Trevor Noah?

  Yeah.

• 1:01:27Speaker 00

  from the people who are already there, but that person has to be in charge. Because I'm just a fr- yeah, I just don't like your plan. I'm sorry, Eugene.

• 1:01:35Trevor Noah?

  Sorry, Eugene, you failed. Can I ask you, can I ask you a question? When you, um.

• 1:01:39Speaker 02

  Katie, I'm with you.

• 1:01:41Trevor Noah?

  I'm assuming over the years you've developed countless sources and and you know, people who are insiders and just people who have like told you things about so this could be an incorrect assumption, but I'm assuming this because of your time in journalism. Have you heard from people inside what we call the administration and and have any of them signaled to you that like they're sort of not sure or they you know, how do they even manage that incongruency between what they think should be and what is?

• 1:02:10Speaker 00

  I haven't heard that many people who are currently inside the administration because I think first of all, they are uber paranoid about leaks there.

• 1:02:20Trevor Noah?

  Oh, wow.

• 1:02:21Speaker 00

  And you know, whether you're working at the Pentagon or wherever, I think that and and also, I think if you're covering something, you have to be at the Pentagon to really have these inside sources.

• 1:02:33Trevor Noah?

  Right.

• 1:02:34Speaker 00

  That's why reporters have different beats, right? So they develop sources and have expertise in that area.

• 1:02:39Trevor Noah?

  Wait, so.

• 1:02:40Speaker 00

  But I do know a lot of people who have left the administration.

• 1:02:43Trevor Noah?

  Yeah.

• 1:02:44Speaker 00

  Who have been fired from the administration, who then are speaking out. For example, I interviewed a senior level FBI agent who talked about kind of what she had seen happening in the FBI, the sort of the wholesale firing of people with expertise, for example, in the Iranian terror threat, right? Cash Patel just gets rid of this whole unit or because some of these agents were investigating some of the perpetrators of January 6th, they got fired. So people like that are much more open to obviously talking.

• 1:03:19Trevor Noah?

  Okay, because now they've left.

• 1:03:20Speaker 00

  About what's happening in inside the administration. I I think most people who are unhappy have left or are are too afraid to talk about why they're unhappy. You know, Liz Oyer was fired as the chief pardon attorney at DOJ. Now she has this very, very vibrant social media presence and she's talking about what's going on in the DOJ. I'm sure she has sources that some people left who she worked with.

• 1:03:48Trevor Noah?

  Yeah.

• 1:03:49Speaker 00

  But I think it's very difficult. At least for me and maybe White House correspondents who are actually on site and can develop these sources. But I think most of the people in in the administration anyway.

• 1:04:01Trevor Noah?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 1:04:02Speaker 00

  Not necessarily in the federal government. I'm sure there are a lot of people, but they're terrified too. You know, you speak out and you get shit canned.

• 1:04:09Trevor Noah?

  Right, right.

• 1:04:11Speaker 00

  So I I don't really have a lot of people inside this administration. Who would be able to talk on the record about or you know, even off the record about their displeasure. Of how things are being done.

• 1:04:25Trevor Noah?

  I've always been fascinated about how the beats work. So if somebody is, when they say someone is.

• 1:04:32Speaker 00

  Capitol Hill correspondent, whatever.

• 1:04:34Trevor Noah?

  Pentagon, where you at the White House. What does that exactly mean? Because I don't assume as a journalist, you get to like walk around the White House freely and investigate things.

• 1:04:43Speaker 00

  Well, you used to be able to, well, I'll ta- ta- talk about the Pentagon for a second. Because I was the deputy Pentagon correspondent at NBC, only for a year before I uh became uh. National correspondent on the Today Show and then co-anchor of the Today Show. But. Basically, when you're a deputy or any Pentagon correspondent, whether it's for the Atlantic or the Washington Post or NBC News. You develop sources, you walk around the E-ring, which is the big perimeter.

• 1:05:10Trevor Noah?

  Sorry, so slow down because you're saying it and I I don't understand any of it. What does develop sources mean?

• 1:05:15Speaker 00

  Well, you talk to people, you know, you introduce yourself to people, you talk to people. Uh, from different, uh, you know, arms of the, you know, from the Navy, Air Force, Marines.

• 1:05:28Trevor Noah?

  So you just go around and you're like, hi, I'm Katie Couric, I'm a reporter and nice to know you.

• 1:05:32Speaker 00

  Well, yeah, or I remember getting a tip from somebody, you know, my first week at the Pentagon.

• 1:05:38Trevor Noah?

  No way.

• 1:05:38Speaker 00

  Uh, and said, hey, this is happening. Are you interested?

• 1:05:42Trevor Noah?

  What was the story? Do you remember?

• 1:05:45Speaker 00

  Yeah, it was about a guy who had secrets and it ended up.

• 1:05:54Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah, I think his name was, anyway, he's being accused of being a spy.

• 1:06:00Trevor Noah?

  Oh, wow.

• 1:06:01Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:06:02Trevor Noah?

  And that person tipped you.

• 1:06:04Speaker 00

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:06:04Trevor Noah?

  So, help me understand this. Why do they do that as opposed to, you would assume if you work at the Pentagon, and you know that somebody's a spy, you would just go to your, like, your superiors and be like, "Hey, this person's a spy."

• 1:06:19Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:06:20Trevor Noah?

  Why would they come to you?

• 1:06:20Speaker 00

  I think the person was already being investigated.

• 1:06:23Trevor Noah?

  Okay, okay, okay.

• 1:06:24Speaker 00

  And I think they thought it was a good story, that it was worth being in the public domain.

• 1:06:30Trevor Noah?

  Okay.

• 1:06:30Speaker 00

  And that it was worth reporting on. I mean, I think people have various motivations, right?

• 1:06:36Trevor Noah?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 1:06:37Speaker 00

  For telling a reporter something. It could be for their own self-aggrandizement, it could be making them feel powerful, could be because they truly believe that, in the public, in the public's right to know.

• 1:06:48Trevor Noah?

  Yeah.

• 1:06:49Speaker 00

  Um, but anyway, so you would walk around, you would talk to people, you would meet people, you would meet them, you know, getting an egg sandwich in the morning, I mean, all kinds of ways, right?

• 1:06:58Trevor Noah?

  That's fascinating.

• 1:06:59Speaker 00

  And, um, and you would walk around. I would just walk around that Pentagon, like, do circles around what they called the E-ring.

• 1:07:07Trevor Noah?

  Just 10,000 steps.

• 1:07:08Speaker 00

  And I would talk to people, and, um, introduce myself, and, and now they have limited your ability to walk around the Pentagon without an escort. There's certain parts of the Pentagon you can't walk around. They, you, you know all the different restrictions they've tried to place on reporters at the Pentagon. They first of all kicked out, you know, they got rid of people's workspace.

• 1:07:32Trevor Noah?

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:07:32Speaker 00

  They made the New York Times and, I think, NBC News and another publication leave, uh, because we used to have desks and offices. So you'd report from the Pentagon. Like, we had a soundproof booth, and they'd come to us. Um, and so they kicked some of them out. They did more administration-friendly news organizations, invited them in. Then they said you had to sign an agreement saying, before you reported on a story, even if it wasn't classified information, you had to clear it with the Pentagon.

• 1:08:04Trevor Noah?

  Oh, wow.

• 1:08:05Speaker 00

  With the, with the Pentagon people. And, um, yeah. And then, and then a judge said, "You can't do any of this." And now they're still trying to put the Pentagon reporters outside the Pentagon proper. They're trying to annex the reporters. And keep them out of the building. I mean, they're just trying to make it very, very difficult. Now, reporters, to their credit, from the New York Times and all the legitimate news organizations, haven't let it stop them. But one Pentagon correspondent told me that one of her sources is afraid to meet her at a restaurant, right? Or is afraid to be seen talking to her at all, you know, which isn't surprising.

• 1:08:48Speaker 00

  But it's just very, it's much more difficult and has a chilling effect on what people are are going to feel comfortable talking to reporters about, right?

• 1:08:58Trevor Noah?

  Right.

• 1:08:58Speaker 00

  They're going to be so scared. And I think that Pete Hexeth has really made it clear that he will not tolerate any leaking. And, but that's when you get information about things that are going on that perhaps shouldn't be going on, that warrant the public's attention. So they're doing, it's really upsetting. They're really trying to to muzzle reporters and tie their hands behind their backs and make their jobs very difficult. And it's just not right.

• 1:09:32Speaker 02

  I sometimes, like how you're explaining now makes sense of what I always think. I sometimes feel sorry for hardcore journalists who are invested in telling people the news because of how much information just gets lost in between, right? So if you think about in South Africa right now, what they're trying to do is they're trying to pass a law that incentivizes a whistleblower. So if a whistleblower comes out in a department and says 16 billion rand was stolen, they, when the, when the person gets convicted, the person gets a share of the money recovered.

• 1:10:02Trevor Noah?

  Whoa, what?

• 1:10:03Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 1:10:04Trevor Noah?

  I didn't know this.

• 1:10:04Speaker 02

  Yes. So they first get protection while the case is being investigated. And then afterwards, they get a cut, a percentage of what was recovered. So I think of the news and I think of the era of maybe like CNN during Desert Storm. You'd find these journalists in there telling the news. They were the source of the news. They were reporting live from there. So I can imagine someone who has a a source who works at the Pentagon, whoever gets this information. Gets the story out, but they go on social media and there's so much disinformation about the same subject that they fought so hard for.

• 1:10:39Trevor Noah?

  Yeah.

• 1:10:39Speaker 02

  All the meetings they had, the life, their livelihood that they're risking sometimes as a journalist to print the story that is true. And there's potential ramifications for a lot of people.

• 1:10:48Speaker 00

  Well, I still, I mean, there is still incredible journalism happening. You know, I think about ProPublica, you know, a nonprofit.

• 1:10:55Trevor Noah?

  Yeah.

• 1:10:56Speaker 00

  News organization and they were the ones who figured out how many of the people who were being arrested and detained by ICE were not guilty of committing serious crimes.

• 1:11:10Trevor Noah?

  Oh, yes.

• 1:11:10Speaker 00

  And it was something like eighty-five percent.

• 1:11:12Trevor Noah?

  Right.

• 1:11:13Speaker 00

  Right? And others, and, and so, and then you have like the New York Times or the Atlantic or I, or the New Yorker, it was, New Yorker and the New York Times keeping track of how the Trump family has enriched themselves to the tune of over four billion dollars and counting. This was a few months ago, so I'm sure it's much higher. Um, so, you know, I think that you're right. Everything becomes diluted in this media landscape where everyone has a voice and an opinion and pretends to be a journalist. But I still believe that for well-informed people, and I think media literacy is more important than ever.

• 1:11:56Speaker 00

  I think that we have to have people who understand how to, how to consume information and to judge information and the accuracy. But, um, I think that, that those stories do break through. And then what happens is, you know, for all the bellyaching about mainstream media, whatever that is now, you know, it's these big organizations, news organizations, some of them, who are, ha, are, are invested in news gathering. They're reporting on stories. And then those stories are then, uh, ingested by other people and explained to their social media followers.

• 1:12:40Trevor Noah?

  Yeah.

• 1:12:40Speaker 00

  You know, so a lot of these single sort of social media opinion givers and reporters are taking.

• 1:12:50Speaker 00

  The the reporting, the core of the reporting done by these news organizations. And basically, I don't want to say plagiarizing, but they're basically reporting what these other people

• 1:13:01Trevor Noah?

  Oh, yes, yes, yes.

• 1:13:02Speaker 00

  have been working so hard to report.

• 1:13:04Trevor Noah?

  Yep.

• 1:13:04Speaker 00

  So in a way, it has a ripple effect. And so these news organizations are doing a great service and even amplifying it, even if they're putting it in their own words, is a positive thing because it is the result of oftentimes weeks, if not months, of reporting, if that makes sense.

• 1:13:25Trevor Noah?

  No, it makes complete sense.

• 1:13:26Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:13:28Trevor Noah?

  I wondered like how you grapple with as a journalist, when to put free speech or the freedom of the press above or below what you may perceive as the interests of the country. Because this has always fascinated me, like, you know, America will be conducting a military exercise or something. And then I'll see in the newspaper, they'll go, well, the military plans to da, da, da, and they plan to blah, blah, blah. Then I'm like, do other countries not read newspapers? Because it seems weird that you can, you can say, you can report.

• 1:14:04Speaker 02

  What is going to happen?

• 1:14:05Trevor Noah?

  Yeah, like, like, I'll read in the newspaper that they've just discovered that the military is planning to do X, Y, Z.

• 1:14:13Speaker 02

  Well, that's what happened in South Africa. There was a military operation, joint military operation that was ran with the US Army and the South African Army and the president didn't know about it.

• 1:14:22Trevor Noah?

  And then someone reports it came out?

• 1:14:23Speaker 02

  Yeah, it was reported in the news.

• 1:14:25Trevor Noah?

  Yes.

• 1:14:25Speaker 02

  Then he had to call the general info and inquiry. Imagine how weird that was.

• 1:14:29Trevor Noah?

  But, but this is what I mean.

• 1:14:29Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:14:30Trevor Noah?

  This is, this is what I'm saying.

• 1:14:31Speaker 02

  He found out in real time with the rest of us.

• 1:14:33Trevor Noah?

  Yes, but what I'm saying is as a journalist.

• 1:14:36Speaker 00

  I think there are national security considerations that I think you pay attention to. If there, if, if, uh, I'm trying to think if there was an example like that when I was at the Pentagon. You know, Panama, for example. I think. I do think that you do weigh sort of national security considerations with the public's right to know. You know, and I think it's a case by case situation. So I think that a lot of, I don't know, now in the current landscape, who knows, right? But I think most legitimate journalists in a certain situation wouldn't necessarily preempt a military action.

• 1:15:20Speaker 00

  I'm trying to think of examples and and report on them prior to them taking place, but they might. I have to, I have to really think about that and look back on different cases.

• 1:15:30Trevor Noah?

  It's such a strange one because I I don't know if people, so, OK, like an example, let's use a hypothetical. Nicolas Maduro, the US military going in and getting him and then bringing him to the US.

• 1:15:42Speaker 02

  That's what we call it now?

• 1:15:43Trevor Noah?

  What do you, what do you, what do you want to call it?

• 1:15:44Speaker 02

  What do you mean getting him like they're giving him a lift?

• 1:15:46Trevor Noah?

  They they got him.

• 1:15:47Speaker 02

  He wasn't in a sleepover. He was not like.

• 1:15:49Trevor Noah?

  Yeah, I mean, I would hope. I hope you wouldn't say got him for a sleepover. Yeah, no, that would be picked him up. Got him means like got him, you get what I'm saying? That's why you say got him versus picked him. If I said like, hey, what happened to my friend Eugene the other day? I'd be like, oh, yeah, I picked him up. I'd never be like, I got him.

• 1:16:06Speaker 02

  Oh, but you could also say, I'm going to get Eugene later, so I can meet you at three.

• 1:16:11Trevor Noah?

  I'm going to get Eugene. Yeah, yeah, this is true. I guess it depends on like the inflection.

• 1:16:15Speaker 00

  Maybe say snatched.

• 1:16:16Trevor Noah?

  Snatched.

• 1:16:17Speaker 02

  Yeah, if Eugene doesn't want to come to your house.

• 1:16:19Trevor Noah?

  Snatched him.

• 1:16:19Speaker 02

  What word would you use?

• 1:16:20Trevor Noah?

  OK, I'm going to use snatched then. They went and snatched him.

• 1:16:25Trevor Noah?

  They went and snatched him.

• 1:16:29Trevor Noah?

  That type of story. Or even, let's say, Iran.

• 1:16:36Trevor Noah?

  When you look at how the public, and obviously it's not all of the public, but when you look at how like the American people have responded post some of these things. Maybe Venezuela people weren't as attached, so they're like, we don't understand what's happening. We don't understand why we're doing this. But then like with Iran, the American public seems to be against this en masse. Most of the people in America are going, we don't want this and we did not want this. I wonder if a journalist had known.

• 1:17:01Speaker 00

  Especially when it's a billion dollars a day, right?

• 1:17:03Trevor Noah?

  Is that what it is now? A billion dollars a day? Oh, man, that's a lot of Ozempic people could be buying. People are like, there's no money for healthcare, but there's money, man.

• 1:17:15Trevor Noah?

  If someone could have reported that, because somebody knew something ahead of time. I wonder if that type of reporting.

• 1:17:23Trevor Noah?

  Which seems to go against the sort of interests of the administration.

• 1:17:29Trevor Noah?

  Go in the interests of the country, because if, if, if the country knew beforehand, and then the country goes, we heard this is going to happen, we don't like it, there's a good chance it wouldn't happen.

• 1:17:37Speaker 00

  Well, I think it was pretty clear that something was going to happen in Iran, you know, with all the ships that had been deployed and all that, right? And you think about the lead up to the war in Iraq, right? The whole argument that the Bush administration was making about weapons of mass destruction in Iraq that turned out to be wrong. And I think the reporting on that was pretty strong, right? But it was strange because that was sort of post nine eleven. And there was a tendency, certainly for Afghanistan, but later for Iraq, to not question sort of the administration as vociferously as they should have been in the run up to the war in Iraq.

• 1:18:17Trevor Noah?

  Yeah.

• 1:18:17Speaker 00

  And the White House correspondents and a lot of journalists were roundly criticized for not questioning what was happening more. But they were definitely reporting on it. And I think, yeah, I, I, I, I'm going to go back and look at sort of how military operations, if anyone scooped a military operation, if it had a negative, a, a negative impact on the execution of that operation.

• 1:18:42Trevor Noah?

  That would be fascinating to know.

• 1:18:43Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah, I'm sure there are a lot of cases. I'm, yeah, I can't think of any now.

• 1:18:49Trevor Noah?

  We'll be right back after the short break.

• 1:18:54Trevor Noah?

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• 1:19:39Trevor Noah?

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• 1:20:23Trevor Noah?

  Terms apply. Cancel anytime.

• 1:20:27Speaker 04

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• 1:21:42Trevor Noah?

  How do you, or how have you, I should say, because I think you've done a really good job of it. How have you managed to be Katie Couric, the person, and Katie Couric, the journalist, for as long as you have? And sort of maintained, especially on the journalistic side, the prestige of that role, and not lost it because people know who you are? You know, you've spoken about your family, you've spoken about loss, you've spoken about death in your life, you've shared so many things as a human being. And yet, at the same time, I don't know how to explain it. It's almost like it hasn't celebrityfied your journalism, if that makes sense.

• 1:22:23Speaker 02

  Hasn't tainted it.

• 1:22:24Trevor Noah?

  Yeah, yeah, because you know, sometimes, sometimes, some news people or some journalists start to become the stories in some ways.

• 1:22:35Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:22:36Trevor Noah?

  I wonder how you've, have you purposefully looked to strike that balance? And how have you done that?

• 1:22:42Speaker 00

  Not really. I mean, I sort of don't feel like I am two different people. And at times, I think I have become the story, right? In a way, I used my husband's death to become a cancer advocate, right? And so that is when my personal plight and my journalism have intersected, right? In terms of trying to inform the public about colon cancer and colon cancer screenings.

• 1:23:10Trevor Noah?

  I mean, they still call that the Couric effect, right?

• 1:23:14Speaker 00

  Well, the fact that, yeah, colon cancer screenings increased 20% after I did a colonoscopy on The Today Show. I know, it was crazy.

• 1:23:21Trevor Noah?

  Sorry for your loss, by the way.

• 1:23:22Speaker 00

  Thank you, I appreciate that. But, I don't know, that's kind of, I don't even know how to answer that question. I am a person and I'm a journalist, and, listen, I try to do the best I can in both roles, right?

• 1:23:42Speaker 00

  Yeah, I don't really see a delineation between, yeah, of course, I have my personal life that I don't necessarily share with everyone. And then I have my, my professional desire to keep people informed, but I don't know, that's a, I've never been asked that question. I don't really know how to answer it.

• 1:24:03Trevor Noah?

  How do you take a break from being informed?

• 1:24:05Speaker 00

  It's hard, you know?

• 1:24:07Trevor Noah?

  Selfishly.

• 1:24:08Speaker 00

  It's really hard because the, the volume and velocity of stuff coming to you, if you kind of check out for a day.

• 1:24:19Trevor Noah?

  You miss a war.

• 1:24:19Speaker 00

  I feel like, oh, my God.

• 1:24:21Trevor Noah?

  You miss a war.

• 1:24:21Speaker 00

  I feel like I don't know what's going on.

• 1:24:24Trevor Noah?

  You lose a billion dollars a day.

• 1:24:25Speaker 00

  Right? And, and you're like, oh, my God, wait, what? And there's so much to keep up with and, you know, and I was just rereading a couple of stories, you know, preparing for our conversation. And I was like, I have to really understand why the CDC kept this report about the COVID vaccine from being made public. I know they did it. I saw the headline, but I don't know enough about why they did it.

• 1:24:52Trevor Noah?

  And what did they say?

• 1:24:53Speaker 00

  And, well, I just went.

• 1:24:54Trevor Noah?

  Cause I also read that, but all I thought was that they were just like, we don't think that this is valid or.

• 1:24:58Speaker 00

  They, they questioned the methodology.

• 1:25:00Trevor Noah?

  That's what I mean, yeah.

• 1:25:00Speaker 00

  Which was, you know, that this morbidity mortality weekly report, which must be really a fun read, that is published by the CDC and has never changed how they go about analyzing information. They, they, because, well, they kept it, they blocked it because it didn't fit with their narrative because it showed the COVID vaccine decreased emergency room visits by 55% and hospitalizations by 50%. And this is a CDC and, you know, Department of, you know, RFK Jr.'s.

• 1:25:43Speaker 00

  What is his, it's, um, what is RFK in charge of, you guys?

• 1:25:47Trevor Noah?

  It was the Health Secretary.

• 1:25:48Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah. Health and Human Services.

• 1:25:50Trevor Noah?

  Health and Human Services, yes.

• 1:25:51Speaker 00

  Health and Human Services, sorry.

• 1:25:53Trevor Noah?

  The Department of Health.

• 1:25:53Speaker 00

  I'm getting my acronym.

• 1:25:54Trevor Noah?

  Yeah, no, we call it the Department of Health.

• 1:25:56Speaker 00

  Health and Human Services.

• 1:25:57Trevor Noah?

  Yeah.

• 1:25:57Speaker 00

  You know, they are clearly anti-vaccine.

• 1:26:00Trevor Noah?

  Right.

• 1:26:01Speaker 00

  Anti-COVID vaccine, so they are suppressing a report that showed the positive impact of the COVID vaccine.

• 1:26:08Trevor Noah?

  Trump's vaccine, may I add, I don't know why my man gets no credit for that vaccine. He put Operation Warp Speed into effect. You remember this?

• 1:26:17Speaker 00

  Yes, and in fact, somebody was talking the other day on Capitol Hill.

• 1:26:20Trevor Noah?

  And he was pushing it hard.

• 1:26:22Speaker 00

  One of his proudest accomplishments, right?

• 1:26:24Trevor Noah?

  It was one of his proudest, and he should be proud of it.

• 1:26:26Speaker 00

  And, and now, you know, obviously, it doesn't fit the narrative, so.

• 1:26:31Speaker 02

  Now he's stepping back from the responsibility of it?

• 1:26:33Trevor Noah?

  No, not even, it's like, what happened was weird. Trump was responsible for, like, he was at the, the head of spearheading this COVID-19 vaccine in record time. Not just the rollout, but the.

• 1:26:43Speaker 02

  Acceptance of it.

• 1:26:44Trevor Noah?

  Uh, getting the entire scientific community to research a thing, to put into place a system that normally would take up to a decade or something.

• 1:26:53Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:26:53Trevor Noah?

  And saying, how do we run certain processes concurrently to make sure that we can get this out as quickly as possible, so the world can come back to life? It was a fantastic thing.

• 1:27:01Speaker 00

  It's a fantastic thing.

• 1:27:02Trevor Noah?

  Trump was also proud of it, by the way.

• 1:27:03Speaker 00

  Saved so many lives, and of course, mRNA, uh, vaccines and this whole approach is actually responsible for this new immunotherapy that they think has a lot of promise for pancreatic cancer. So, not only was the COVID, COVID vaccine a positive, it also led to a lot of other vaccines for other serious illnesses and a new kind of, um, you know, ther- therapeutic approach, so. But in this world where black is white and white is black and up is down and down is up.

• 1:27:36Trevor Noah?

  It didn't fit with, it didn't fit with. What the base and the narrative were going with. Hmm. And so what was strange was, Trump said it at one of his rallies, I remember. He said, he's like, the COVID vaccine, it was my vaccine, I did it, I did. And the crowd was like, Boo is like, a lot of people, they don't like that, they don't like it. So I don't talk about, I don't talk about. But he was like, yo, I did that thing, it's not Biden's vaccine, it's my vaccine. But because the people, his people didn't like it.

• 1:28:02Speaker 00

  Right.

• 1:28:02Trevor Noah?

  He was like, alright, fine, but it is mine, but I, fine, nobody wants to talk about it.

• 1:28:07Speaker 00

  I'm not gonna talk about it anymore.

• 1:28:08Trevor Noah?

  Yeah, but okay, I see what you mean.

• 1:28:09Speaker 00

  Science is so infuriating, especially someone like me who's done, tried to devote so much time to cancer research, to raising money, to support science. And this, this idea that, that, you know, people don't believe the scientific community. And the way that Anthony Fauci has been demonized is just, in my view, a disgrace.

• 1:28:35Trevor Noah?

  Yeah, I think, I think it's a, you know, it's one of those things where hindsight is 2020. So I remember when we had Dr. Fauci on the show. And I asked him this question or a version of it, it's like, how much do you feel responsibility to inform people of what's happening? Because at the time, the thing I said as well about like the CDC and all of it was, they were giving mixed messages. You know, so first they told us, don't wear masks, please do not wear masks, masks are not for you, don't wear the mask, don't wear the masks. And then all of a sudden they were like, everyone get a mask. And we're like, what the hell just happened here? And it was like, uh, this many feet away from other people, uh, no, no feet, uh, do indoor, no, uh. And then when you realize they were trying to like manage people.

• 1:29:17Trevor Noah?

  I was, that was like the only criticism I had was I went, regardless of your intentions, and I think parents see this a lot. Sometimes you think you're gonna lie to your kid for a good reason.

• 1:29:29Speaker 00

  Right.

• 1:29:30Trevor Noah?

  And your kid will appreciate it.

• 1:29:31Speaker 00

  I think they should have been more transparent, that this is a new virus, we are learning about it every day. We're learning about transmission, we're learning about how deadly it is. We are learning and we are really doing this as we go.

• 1:29:48Trevor Noah?

  We didn't did that.

• 1:29:49Speaker 00

  Yeah, and I think that that would have perhaps made people less critical of kind of, oh, wait, now this, now that, actually, on the other hand, well, we've reevaluated this. And I think that science, you know, there's an art to science too, and it's cumulative. And you you don't necessarily have all the answers immediately. And I think the scientific and medical community did an incredible job of taking this pandemic and trying to understand it, but I think there was something lost in communicating. What they were learning to the general public.

• 1:30:29Trevor Noah?

  Yeah, it's a, it's, it's, it's a shame.

• 1:30:32Speaker 00

  It warrants the kind of.

• 1:30:35Trevor Noah?

  Oh, no, like the world ending, it's like, it's, it's extreme. It's but it's also, again, it goes back to the sports of it all. If you ask sports fans what should happen to somebody who's made a bad tackle, depends on the team. Someone will be like, ah, come on, that happens, get a, walk it off. Others times like, no, kick him out of the game. Eject that person and ban them even. That was the the most flagrant. So I think.

• 1:31:00Speaker 00

  The tribalism is just out of control.

• 1:31:03Trevor Noah?

  How Americans in particular, I find, discuss any issue.

• 1:31:09Trevor Noah?

  This is something I've always wondered, even in journalism. When did that thing, not that you immediately know, but why do they put Republican or Democrat before somebody's name in an article? Like, why, why does American news report things like that? Or they'll even say a win for Democrats as um, childcare law passes. Then I'm like, but why don't they just say childcare law has passed?

• 1:31:32Speaker 02

  Win for the people.

• 1:31:33Trevor Noah?

  Yeah, I've always wondered that, like, why, why do they, in my opinion?

• 1:31:38Speaker 00

  I guess in a two-party system, you, you, I, I guess maybe it's a way of of figuring out people's priorities and getting back to elections, you know, what they care about and what they choose to focus on and move the needle on, right?

• 1:31:55Speaker 02

  What promise seems delivered and by who?

• 1:31:57Trevor Noah?

  Yeah, but, but what I mean, okay, so it would be different if it, if the headline said.

• 1:32:04Trevor Noah?

  Democrats promised childcare law. It has now been passed. I know this is not a sexy headline, right? But that is what happened. But if they go in a win for Democrats, childcare law passed. To me, it makes it seem like the Republicans have lost. And the Democrats have won. And the childcare law doesn't have anything to do with the children in the law. It just has to do with who passed it.

• 1:32:29Speaker 00

  I mean, I don't know where you saw that headline.

• 1:32:31Trevor Noah?

  Oh, no, no. This is, this is, this is a headline I'm per, but I could pull them. There's, there's always like in a windfall in a, you know? And then, and then the other one is just when people speak. So they'll go, um, Republican Katie Couric passes law on or says that we need to have fewer this. And sometimes I think if you could remove that R or D before the issue. I think people would approach it with a more neutral and honest opinion.

• 1:32:58Speaker 00

  Perhaps.

• 1:32:59Trevor Noah?

  You know? Did you ever see that, that quiz that the New York Times that you, you didn't see this? But you, you'd love this, though. You'd love this.

• 1:33:05Speaker 02

  How do you know I didn't see the quiz?

• 1:33:06Trevor Noah?

  Ah, Brian, you don't read. I know this. So.

• 1:33:11Trevor Noah?

  No, so it was, it was in the New York Times. They put out a quiz. It was around like when Hillary, Bernie, everyone was running. So I think I got 2016, somewhere there. And the quiz was, you just choose your issues. We'll tell you who you should vote for.

• 1:33:29Speaker 02

  Oh, wow.

• 1:33:30Trevor Noah?

  And I remember in the building, we did this in, in the office. And everyone ran this quiz, right? And I was working at the Daily Show at the time. And so, you know, some people are liberal, some people conservative, some, everyone. But everyone had their idea. They were so confident. They're like, oh, I, I know I'm gonna get Hillary. I know this for sure. Oh, I'm definitely gonna get this person. I'm definitely gonna get that person. It was literally that. You just, do you think America spends? A, too much money on the military. B, not enough money. C, just the right amount. D, well, you know what I mean? They did that for every issue. And at the end, they would go, this is the candidate who aligns with you. The amount of panic and angst in the building when people got their results. And it, it even went viral at the time.

• 1:34:14Trevor Noah?

  But I remember people going, this can't be right. I'm not a Bernie voter. And you're like, no, no, no. But everything you want, he wants.

• 1:34:21Speaker 02

  The candidate.

• 1:34:23Trevor Noah?

  And that's when I realized, half of the time. We are not looking at the issue. We are looking at the person we associate the issue with. And then we are making the decision based on that.

• 1:34:34Speaker 02

  But circle back to my earlier proposition of how elections should be running.

• 1:34:41Trevor Noah?

  This is not election time. We're not going back to this.

• 1:34:42Speaker 02

  You're voting on the issue.

• 1:34:44Trevor Noah?

  No, no, no, no, I agree with. But what I'm saying is, do you get what I mean?

• 1:34:46Speaker 02

  Don't agree. Uh, Katie, please, you are journalist. You know this tactic. He's printing a retraction.

• 1:34:52Trevor Noah?

  I'm not printing a retraction.

• 1:34:52Speaker 02

  In a small font.

• 1:34:53Trevor Noah?

  No, no, no. I said I agree with, I said I agree with issue based.

• 1:34:55Speaker 02

  But you said quickly, you passed.

• 1:34:56Trevor Noah?

  No, no, but I originally agreed with issue based. No, I, I had already agreed with it.

• 1:35:00Speaker 02

  Okay, sure.

• 1:35:00Trevor Noah?

  The thing I didn't agree with you on was the bureaucrat buddy coming to elections.

• 1:35:04Speaker 02

  Like a bureaucrat buddy?

• 1:35:05Trevor Noah?

  Yeah, bureaucrat buddy I didn't agree with. Yeah, that I didn't agree with.

• 1:35:10Trevor Noah?

  Do you, but do you understand what I'm saying? It's like, I, I wonder.

• 1:35:14Trevor Noah?

  Maybe responsibility is the wrong word. But there's one part of journalism that is finding out the facts and the information and what is going on.

• 1:35:23Speaker 02

  And verifying them.

• 1:35:24Trevor Noah?

  There's another part that is framing it. How is it put to people?

• 1:35:28Speaker 02

  Packaging it.

• 1:35:29Trevor Noah?

  Yes. And I, I, that's the thing I sometimes, I just find myself wondering, because I didn't grow up like that.

• 1:35:36Trevor Noah?

  Is like, why is it necessary to have that person's political affiliation? When they were just saying or doing something? Because then I think it, it limits a person's ability to just go, I like or don't like that.

• 1:35:49Speaker 00

  Or to say a Republican can actually have a good policy.

• 1:35:52Trevor Noah?

  That's what I mean. That's exactly what I mean.

• 1:35:54Speaker 00

  Can actually, that's a good idea.

• 1:35:56Trevor Noah?

  Yeah.

• 1:35:56Speaker 00

  Well, hopefully, these things are bipartisan. I mean, I, I'd like to go back and see the headlines that you have in mind. I mean, I think that people just, I don't know, you know, it's just very, very traditional and very, um. I think has the way it's been done with Republicans and Democrats and.

• 1:36:20Speaker 00

  I don't know. I don't, I don't see a problem with that.

• 1:36:24Trevor Noah?

  You don't?

• 1:36:24Speaker 00

  Uh-uh.

• 1:36:25Trevor Noah?

  Huh. You know, when I, when I realized how powerful it can be was when um we did a piece on how there was a, there's a town, I forget where this was, but basically someone was running for mayor in a city. And in the city, and I think there's a few places like this, you're not allowed to say whether you're Republican or Democrat when you're running for mayor. You just run.

• 1:36:50Speaker 02

  Really?

• 1:36:51Trevor Noah?

  Yeah. And this place has like one of the highest rates of people voting across party lines, because they don't know which party the person's from. So they just go, who's running? Eugene. Eugene wants clean water. Eugene thinks there should be more cows, there should be fewer windmills.

• 1:37:09Speaker 02

  Parents should get more, more, more votes.

• 1:37:11Trevor Noah?

  Parents should have more votes.

• 1:37:12Speaker 02

  People should vote on each other instead of individuals.

• 1:37:14Trevor Noah?

  Exactly. And then they go like, okay, we've also got Katie Couric. Katie wants more journalism, more desks at the Pentagon, more egg sandwiches, and

• 1:37:21Speaker 02

  More deep throats.

• 1:37:22Trevor Noah?

  And she wants more um colonoscopies, and this is her platform that she's running on.

• 1:37:27Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 1:37:28Trevor Noah?

  The people, the people vote.

• 1:37:30Speaker 02

  Trevor wants?

• 1:37:32Trevor Noah?

  Good times.

• 1:37:32Speaker 00

  So you're saying the obsession with two parties is polarizing in and of itself?

• 1:37:38Trevor Noah?

  No, I'm saying, I'm saying the identity of it first, I believe, limits people's ability. If I met you and the first thing you said to me was, hi, Republican Katie Couric, no matter what, my brain has now put you in a certain space. Even if you said, hi, Democrat Katie Couric, I'd be like, okay, my brain has put you in a space. Hello, Liverpool supporter, Trevor Noah. Your brain already goes, if you're a Manchester United supporter, you're like, I don't know about this guy. For me, the joy is you meet people, you talk, you discuss things, you experience life, and then at some point, somebody goes, you're an Eagles fan? Aw, man, I'm a Chiefs fan. I didn't know you were an Eagles fan the whole time. Okay, okay. That's, that's what I think it robs people of, honestly, in my opinion.

• 1:38:23Speaker 00

  No, I understand what you're saying. There was a Heineken commercial a few years ago about people putting together a bar. Did you ever see this?

• 1:38:30Trevor Noah?

  Building things together.

• 1:38:31Speaker 00

  Yeah. And nobody knew anything about anyone's background.

• 1:38:37Speaker 00

  And there was trans person there.

• 1:38:38Trevor Noah?

  Yes.

• 1:38:39Speaker 00

  There were just kind of a whole kind of.

• 1:38:42Trevor Noah?

  It was a complete gamut.

• 1:38:43Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:38:43Trevor Noah?

  It ran, yeah.

• 1:38:45Speaker 00

  And it basically, I think this is sort of the point you're making to to kind of get rid of your preconceived notions and to be more open minded for different perspectives. By the time they finished doing the bar, they all kind of had done something together. They had talked to each other, they'd gotten to know each other. And it removed all these kind of, you know, very specific, you know, preconceptions.

• 1:39:12Trevor Noah?

  Yeah.

• 1:39:12Speaker 00

  About each other. So I think if that's what you're saying, I understand. I mean, I don't know about removing the D and the R, if that's gonna be the solution.

• 1:39:23Trevor Noah?

  Oh, not solution, I just like, like, it's like I'm pitching an amendment is where I go. Cause to, cause to your point, what you know what I loved about that commercial in particular? Was they brought people in, they knew they had very extreme views about certain issues.

• 1:39:37Speaker 00

  Right.

• 1:39:38Trevor Noah?

  They made them work on something together. They would work and they would struggle and they built something together. And then afterwards, they'd get them to say why the other person was so good and why they worked well together. And they'd be like, oh, man, you know, Eugene really builds well and Katie is such a wonderful teammate. And they had all these effusive things. And they said, all right, now we want to show you a video. And they gave you like a video.

• 1:39:58Speaker 00

  And the person described who they were.

• 1:40:01Trevor Noah?

  Yes, and then it was like, hello Eugene, here's a video and it was Katie Couric.

• 1:40:04Speaker 00

  You should watch it, actually.

• 1:40:05Trevor Noah?

  It's amazing, it's amazing. And then you get the video and it's like, I'm Katie Couric. Man, if there's one thing I hate, it's South Africans. Short South Africans who are comedians with glasses. I hate them with all my heart.

• 1:40:18Speaker 00

  Me too. Or more like, I am a woman, I believe in a woman's right to choose.

• 1:40:25Trevor Noah?

  Yes, yeah, yeah.

• 1:40:26Speaker 00

  I believe in this, I believe in LGBTQ rights, I believe in this. And it just, it just kind of, all these differences evaporated and it was, it was very interesting.

• 1:40:41Trevor Noah?

  It was beautiful because people said.

• 1:40:43Speaker 00

  People saw each other as humans, not as.

• 1:40:47Trevor Noah?

  There you go.

• 1:40:48Speaker 00

  Ideologues.

• 1:40:50Trevor Noah?

  I sometimes, do you think that that's also part of the role of journalism is to make everyone in a society see the other people in that society?

• 1:40:59Speaker 00

  Yeah, but I think it's really hard now because I think when you're, there's so much fragmentation and you want to get an audience, there's a real, um, there's an advantage to appealing to people who feel strongly, one way or another. And it's, it's less of, let's talk about the nuances of this story. It's more, as my friend Kara Swisher says, like engagement through enragement. How do you get people, especially social media and these platforms, obviously, are all, it's all about the attention economy, how long you're going to stay on the platform,

• 1:41:43Speaker 00

  how much you're going to engage on the platform. And so I think that there's not, there's not an emphasis on kind of a conversation where two people could show a different point of view. I mean, I guess Abby Phillip does that in some ways on her CNN show. But it's, that show frustrates me too sometimes because, well, like last night, or I saw a clip, or maybe it was last night, that they were talking about all the very incendiary things that President Trump has said. And this one Republican kept insisting that he was really changing the dialogue, but

• 1:42:27Speaker 00

  he would not, or changing kind of the temperature, lowering the temperature of, of debate or whatever he was saying. And yet he would not concede that some of the things that Trump has said are wrong, wrong. You know, you know, you don't cheer when Robert Mueller dies. You know, a true patriot, you know, and so many things. I mean, we could list chapter and verse, all the things, the incendiary and just honestly, you know, disgusting things that, that Trump has said and done. And he would not, he would not just say, you know what, that was wrong, he shouldn't do that.

• 1:43:10Speaker 00

  It's sort of like, he didn't want to give an inch.

• 1:43:13Trevor Noah?

  No, but there's no reward in that, I find now.

• 1:43:15Speaker 00

  Well, that's what I'm saying.

• 1:43:16Trevor Noah?

  Yeah, in society, oh, okay, I hear you, yeah, there's no reward.

• 1:43:19Speaker 00

  He is describing, he is on a team, to get back to your sort of team point, and he does not want to do anything that will make people doubt his loyalty to that team.

• 1:43:29Trevor Noah?

  I would even argue.

• 1:43:30Speaker 00

  So, the environment just isn't receptive to kind of this give and take. It's everyone is sort of, has picked their side, right?

• 1:43:39Trevor Noah?

  Yeah, but I would even argue in that instance, I would levy some of the blame on the producers of the show, because I would go, you know full well that you're not bringing somebody here to have a meaningful discussion. You're bringing somebody to play a part.

• 1:43:55Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:43:56Trevor Noah?

  Against somebody who's playing a part.

• 1:43:57Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:43:58Trevor Noah?

  Because when I watch those shows.

• 1:43:59Speaker 00

  It's disgusting.

• 1:44:00Trevor Noah?

  Yeah, the people are very much, you can say whatever, and it'd be like, "Oh, Donald Trump choked a puppy." Well, let me, I mean, who likes puppies? Come on, let's talk. And you're like, you don't think that. But because your job here is to be the pro-Trump or Republican person, and your job is to be the pro-Democrat, pro... I almost go like, I'm like, oh, we haven't, we actually haven't created a show about discourse and dialogue. We've created the theater of it.

• 1:44:25Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:44:25Trevor Noah?

  That makes both sides feel seen, and it feels like a way to like, try and grab both sides, but it doesn't feel like a meaningful way to actually have a discussion.

• 1:44:33Speaker 00

  Yeah, I agree. And I guess the question is, again, I think just because I've covered so many administrations,

• 1:44:43Speaker 00

  do we normalize some of the things the Trump administration is doing by giving it weight in an argument, right? And are these policy differences? Or is it something more dangerous?

• 1:45:02Trevor Noah?

  Right.

• 1:45:04Speaker 00

  And the question is, do you legitimize that?

• 1:45:09Speaker 00

  By having that conversation, I don't know.

• 1:45:12Trevor Noah?

  Yeah, if you apply the normal way of doing things to an abnormal thing, are you now making the abnormal normal?

• 1:45:21Speaker 02

  Very normal.

• 1:45:21Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:45:22Trevor Noah?

  Essentially is what you're saying. So when, I mean, we find you at a point in your journey, you know, it feels like one of your many evolutions. What is your, what is your dream? What is your like? If you, if you look at what you're doing now in life, where you're trying to go with it, what do you hope it becomes? And what do you hope it fills in society?

• 1:45:45Speaker 00

  I mean, I don't hope it becomes anything. I hope that I can continue to give voice to people who have the wisdom and the experience and the understanding and the knowledge to share what we're all witnessing together and to give it a perspective that I think is right. You know, I ask the questions. I don't always have the answers. But if I want to talk to somebody who I think does, who can give an honest appraisal of what's going on,

• 1:46:25Speaker 00

  and that's what I want to help share with the world. If that's helpful to people, if that, if, if they're the way they see the world. I mean, obviously, I'm giving them a platform. So there has to be some kind of level of me kind of feeling like their views are worth

• 1:46:47Trevor Noah?

  Yeah.

• 1:46:47Speaker 00

  exposing and airing and, and putting out there for the public. But, but that's what I hope to continue to do. I think, you know, I gave a speech last night. I got an award and I was talking about how science, about thank you, science is refuted, how, you know, the constitution is being ignored.

• 1:47:08Trevor Noah?

  Yeah.

• 1:47:09Speaker 00

  How expertise is being derided. So all those things I want to give voice to. And that's, that's all.

• 1:47:20Speaker 00

  I want to be of service to democracy in any way I can.

• 1:47:24Trevor Noah?

  Yeah.

• 1:47:24Speaker 00

  Um, and to the values that I hold dear. You know, scientific discovery and advancement. Uh, the rule of law, you know, um, uh, expertise. You know, I was reviewing, uh, this book by Tom Nichols. I think it was written in 2017. It was called The Death of Expertise. And why people don't trust people who have a deep well of, of knowledge in a certain area. Because everyone is an expert now. Everyone has an opinion. And then I think the democratization of media means that everyone thinks everyone's opinion holds the same weight.

• 1:48:07Trevor Noah?

  Yeah.

• 1:48:07Speaker 00

  But it doesn't. There's so many opinions without portfolio out there. I want to talk to the, about the COVID vaccine with a scientist who has studied it. You know, and who, who will really truly understand the impact of it. Not somebody who's trying to kind of perpetrate a narrative.

• 1:48:26Trevor Noah?

  Yeah.

• 1:48:26Speaker 00

  About the, you know, the vaccines are unsafe. You know, nothing is a hundred percent safe, by the way. And I think that that needs to be transparent too, to the American public. But, um, you know, so, so trying to use my ability to elicit questions and to ask questions that I think most people have. And to be able to turn to somebody who really understands an issue, who understands like the role of NATO in the 20th century and, you know, post-World War II and what it has done and what is it, it has meant. While acknowledging that perhaps some countries haven't paid enough, right?

• 1:49:09Trevor Noah?

  Right.

• 1:49:10Speaker 00

  Into NATO, uh, but, but kind of understanding the framework. I want to talk to a historian who can talk about that.

• 1:49:18Trevor Noah?

  Right.

• 1:49:18Speaker 00

  Um, not somebody who just says NATO sucks and they're not paying their fair share. Right?

• 1:49:25Trevor Noah?

  It's the nuance. It's the nuance and the complication. And I think, yeah, your, your, your, um, your endeavor is valid because I think it does something. One of the first things you said in, in explaining this is you said.

• 1:49:42Trevor Noah?

  I paraphrase you, but basically you said something to the effect of, I want to report on the world and the realities that we are all experiencing. I think that is one of the most important things we take for granted is just giving people a view of a reality that we do share. I always say, let's argue about reality, but let's not dispute it. We can argue all we want.

• 1:50:08Speaker 02

  Science, yeah.

• 1:50:09Trevor Noah?

  Yeah, but let's not dispute reality itself.

• 1:50:11Speaker 00

  And also, you know, it's messy.

• 1:50:15Trevor Noah?

  Yeah, it is messy.

• 1:50:16Speaker 00

  There's no clear cut answer on some of these things, you know. My daughter often talks about the ability to think dialectically, yes, and. And I think we've lost our ability to do that. Yes, two things may be true at the same time. You know, uh, the regime in Iran was terrible. And, um, you know, was able to survive for too long. A brutal theocracy, right? That was doing all kinds of terrible things to its people and to the region and potentially to the world, right? You can say that.

• 1:50:52Speaker 00

  Was it right to do this now? And what were, what was the rationale, right? So I think that also.

• 1:51:00Trevor Noah?

  And the way, and the way it's been done.

• 1:51:02Speaker 00

  And I think this tribalism has made people really wary of dealing in the gray areas. And, and the complexities of situations. Yeah, scared to be wrong and yeah, I think you're right.

• 1:51:17Trevor Noah?

  Scared to be wrong and messy, I think. Messy, messy is the big one.

• 1:51:20Speaker 02

  Yeah, because I, I think being scared to be wrong foils debate from the onset. If you, if you run the risk of being wrong, you will never allow your opinion to be challenged, number one. But I think what this conversation has helped me realize is the importance of journalists. Cause I think a lot of people who consume short bites of media on social media do not understand that their favorite influencer that tells them the news got that news from a journalist.

• 1:51:44Trevor Noah?

  Yeah.

• 1:51:44Speaker 02

  Who verified the sources, who wrote the story, who broadcast the story and someone takes it and runs with it. So we still need.

• 1:51:51Trevor Noah?

  Then we should have a deep appreciation for hardworking journalists like such as yourself and other people that you know in the industry.

• 1:51:55Speaker 00

  Well, yes, definitely. I'm so glad you said that because I'm I'm working on a documentary or trying to develop a documentary about the evolution of the news business. Because, you know, I got into this business in nineteen seventy nine.

• 1:52:10Trevor Noah?

  Right.

• 1:52:10Speaker 00

  And how it's changed.

• 1:52:11Trevor Noah?

  Back in the day, Katie.

• 1:52:12Speaker 00

  And and we should call it back in the day.

• 1:52:15Trevor Noah?

  It is called back in the day.

• 1:52:15Speaker 00

  And and and sort of what it means and and and and how important it is to have a common understanding of truth in a democracy.

• 1:52:26Trevor Noah?

  Yeah, that's the thing.

• 1:52:28Speaker 00

  Right? And we have lost that. You know, people call it truth decay.

• 1:52:32Trevor Noah?

  Yeah.

• 1:52:32Speaker 00

  And, you know, what that means in terms of keeping a democracy strong.

• 1:52:40Trevor Noah?

  Yeah. It's it's one of the it's part of an immune system is the way I think of it. Right?

• 1:52:47Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:52:47Trevor Noah?

  A body is a messy thing. Its systems are strangely messy, but they all work in in a direction. So like, sometimes you feel bad. Like you feel sick because your body is fighting to make you unsick, but you feel bad because of your own body. Does that make sense?

• 1:53:03Speaker 00

  Yes, your immune system, right?

• 1:53:05Trevor Noah?

  But it's weird if you.

• 1:53:05Speaker 00

  Oh, wait, wait. No, a virus gets in there.

• 1:53:08Trevor Noah?

  Yeah, but the immune system is the thing that we're experiencing, actually, is like your body is making you feel bad.

• 1:53:13Speaker 02

  Or the reaction.

• 1:53:13Trevor Noah?

  Yes, the reaction. Yes.

• 1:53:15Speaker 02

  We're experiencing the reaction.

• 1:53:16Trevor Noah?

  That's what I mean. And that's what I mean by the messiness of it all is like sometimes I think we take for granted that the correct way or the the best way we've figured out for things to work is the messy way is like the journalism will reveal messy truths about your country and your people and outsiders and insiders. And if you if it's good journalism, it will force you to grapple with those truths.

• 1:53:38Speaker 00

  Right.

• 1:53:39Trevor Noah?

  You know, like like you're saying.

• 1:53:40Speaker 00

  And I think I think unfortunately, I think all of us have gotten intellectually lazy where we immediately go to.

• 1:53:45Trevor Noah?

  Yeah, damn, I love that intellectually lazy. Yeah.

• 1:53:49Speaker 00

  Uh, you know, our side of the argument.

• 1:53:51Trevor Noah?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:53:52Speaker 00

  And it's not like, well, wait, what? You know, maybe this should have happened differently.

• 1:53:59Trevor Noah?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:54:00Speaker 00

  Or maybe that person has a point. You don't have to agree with them on everything. But our ability to kind of. Look at something critically and dialectically, I think, has been lost in this very binary, black and white, in, you know, world we live in, good, bad. I mean, again, I find it gets complicated when you're talking about a president who does the things this president does.

• 1:54:29Trevor Noah?

  Yeah.

• 1:54:30Speaker 00

  You know?

• 1:54:30Trevor Noah?

  Yeah.

• 1:54:30Speaker 00

  Because I do think, you know, it's, it's been said, it's not left, right, it's right, wrong, right? And it is very difficult to kind of do those, you know, moral equivalencies when you feel like one-sided ledger is really wrong, if that makes sense.

• 1:54:53Trevor Noah?

  Yeah, absolutely.

• 1:54:54Speaker 00

  You know?

• 1:54:54Trevor Noah?

  Yeah.

• 1:54:55Speaker 00

  So that, to me, is the, the real, the real challenge, you know? It's, it's not two different perspectives on policy. Like, how do you solve the homeless problem?

• 1:55:09Trevor Noah?

  Yes, exactly.

• 1:55:09Speaker 00

  Right? It is a way of doing business that feels wrong and unjust.

• 1:55:19Trevor Noah?

  Yeah.

• 1:55:20Speaker 00

  You know, building of what, $400 million ballroom that is going to eclipse the White House without going through the proper, you know, process of getting permission and/or loading the people.

• 1:55:36Trevor Noah?

  Oh, it's law for everyone except me.

• 1:55:38Speaker 00

  Right.

• 1:55:38Trevor Noah?

  You know?

• 1:55:39Speaker 00

  And so I think that's, that's where it's, it's become really difficult and challenging, I think, for a journalist.

• 1:55:52Trevor Noah?

  Thankfully, difficult and challenging is sort of what you've specialized in. I think it's what many, towards Eugene's saying, great journalists have specialized in. Difficult and challenging was, you know, covering a Gulf War, difficult and challenging was, you know, tracking a drug smuggling ring, difficult and challenging is finding a source, informing people, trying to make it palatable or even digestible for a public. Um, genuinely, all I can say is I think myself and many other people, we're grateful to people like you. Because we don't realize how much of our knowledge is based on, as Eugene said, the work of other people. And then what we do is we turn around and we go, I don't, I don't need that.

• 1:56:37Trevor Noah?

  I don't, I don't need the news and I don't read the news because, you know, I actually heard this thing the other day about how, and I'm like, yeah, where do you, where do you think you heard it from? Where do you think that person heard it from? Yeah. People just make it like it comes out of thin air. I actually saw a thing that said, it's like, yeah, the same journalists that you will vilify, the same ones. Yeah. Are the ones who put out the news about how something that was reported a while ago has now changed. It's the same place. Like, I've always found it funny that people will go, the New York Times said this, the New York Times put out a story now, saying that something they reported on ten, fifteen years ago was like wrong, not a correction, but they're saying like, hey, actually, we've just discovered this.

• 1:57:17Trevor Noah?

  And then people go, see, the New York Times put out this thing where they, they, they found out that this many years ago, they, they were wrong. I'm like, yeah, but where did you hear this from the New York Times? So you should be grateful that the thing exists. Still exists. In its imperfect state because it is still providing a service.

• 1:57:34Speaker 00

  But I also think people have to take the responsibility of being informed seriously.

• 1:57:40Trevor Noah?

  Ah, we want to be lazy, Katie. Why are you doing this to us?

• 1:57:43Speaker 00

  And if they, you know, like some, I was talking to some people in Virginia about the redistricting vote.

• 1:57:49Trevor Noah?

  Yeah.

• 1:57:50Speaker 00

  And, uh, one of the people were saying, somebody I was talking to said, you know, people felt like it was morally wrong. Gerrymandering is wrong. But I said, did they understand that this started in Texas? By, uh, you know, a mid, mid census year.

• 1:58:10Speaker 00

  Request by the President of the United States to redistrict in Texas so there would be more Republican seats.

• 1:58:17Speaker 02

  Hmm.

• 1:58:17Speaker 00

  Do they understand that was the genesis of all this? And then it happened in California and then North Carolina and then Missouri and now Virginia. And if people don't pay attention and don't understand, they it's they have to be informed. And they needed to understand, well, Virginia is doing this because it started in Texas. And if the Democrats hadn't responded in California and Virginia, then the chances then it would be very lopsided for the midterm elections.

• 1:58:50Speaker 02

  Yeah, it becomes an unending, yeah.

• 1:58:51Speaker 00

  But but it's sort of like, and did you know that in 2018, the Democrats proposed legislation, I think it was 2018, to end gerrymandering, period?

• 1:59:00Speaker 02

  Yeah, full stop.

• 1:59:01Speaker 00

  And no Republicans voted for it. So I just, I think people just need to to have the background and educate themselves before they have an opinion.

• 1:59:11Speaker 02

  I think the assault on journalism is probably more on the journalism profession itself because it's not made as sexy and as essential. You know, people talk about policemen.

• 1:59:25Speaker 00

  Well, that's because everyone thinks they are one.

• 1:59:26Speaker 02

  Teach, yes, exactly. So I think maybe the battlefield, where else would see a journalist reporting in the battlefield, I think the new battlefield is exactly where the plagiarism is happening and the misinformation is happening on social media. I think now the journalist needs to hold that phone in front of their face as they held a microphone during the Gulf War.

• 1:59:44Trevor Noah?

  Oh, interesting.

• 1:59:45Speaker 02

  And say, in this battlefield, this is the truth and this is not the truth. Because right now, I think we've just left it all up to people who have nice phones and nice lighting and too much time on their hands to tell the stories. I think the journalists need to go in. So that's why I'm happy when I see big publications, those social media accounts.

• 2:00:02Trevor Noah?

  Well, I was actually about to ask, is there a reason that you decided to go?

• 2:00:05Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:00:06Trevor Noah?

  Because you you have gone to exactly to what Eugene said, you've done that.

• 2:00:08Speaker 02

  New battlefield, yeah.

• 2:00:09Trevor Noah?

  You've gone to where the people are.

• 2:00:11Speaker 00

  Well, that's, I mean, it was pretty obvious. It didn't take a brain surgeon to see where the puck was going.

• 2:00:16Speaker 02

  Excuse me, Katie?

• 2:00:17Speaker 00

  No, not you. It didn't take a- Brain surgeon, though, people in my profession to see that that linear television news was declining.

• 2:00:27Trevor Noah?

  Right.

• 2:00:27Speaker 00

  That people were getting increasingly getting their news and information online. And that you had to then and and people, I think, in legacy media organizations were kind of caught flat footed because they had a vested interest in maintaining the status quo. You know, they talk about analog dollars and digital pennies. And, you know, this is where they were making the money. They didn't want to cannibalize their product. But as, you know, their their viewers got older and older. And everyone else was was looking at their phones for information. Now they're finally catching up and you're seeing, you know, network and local even reporters,

• 2:01:10Speaker 00

  even though so many local newspapers, like 2,500, 2,500 have closed since, I think, 2004. But you're seeing them adapt to these new platforms where people are getting their information. And by the way, I listen on Instagram to somebody from the New York Times, even if it's a it's a reporter, an opinion person. I listen to somebody from ABC News online. I I still pay attention and consider the source of the information. And that's what I mean about media literacy. You know, people need to understand there are certain standards from different news outlets and organizations that are adhered to, you know, where information is vetted and sourced

• 2:01:55Speaker 00

  and edited and, you know, verified.

• 2:01:57Trevor Noah?

  There's accountability.

• 2:01:58Speaker 00

  Yeah, and I think that it's been very hard with this flood of people just kind of giving information. Influencers, it's like, I'm sorry, where did you get that information? Why are you saying this? Where did this come from? But people can't, it's hard to discern who is legitimate and who's not when there's this sea of people all kind of talking to you on your phone.

• 2:02:22Trevor Noah?

  Yeah. No, well, I mean, like I say, it's one, it's literally, it's one step at a time. It's one challenge at a time. I love how much vigor you have for it, by the way. Because like a lot of people would be like, I've done my time, I'm done. But you still have like the.

• 2:02:36Speaker 00

  I love it.

• 2:02:37Trevor Noah?

  That's what I mean.

• 2:02:38Speaker 00

  I love, you know why? It's selfish because I love learning about the world. I love understanding. So when I'm talking to somebody about a subject, if I'm talking to a former military person about the challenges of the war in Iran and drone warfare.

• 2:02:56Trevor Noah?

  Right, right.

• 2:02:57Speaker 00

  And what's changed, like, I wanna, I wanna learn that. You know, so I feel like selfishly, I'm learning something every day. And if I then can help by my ignorance or my desire to, to become more knowledgeable, can then help someone else be like, oh, wow, I didn't know that. That's interesting or whatever. I feel like I'm, I, I'm serving myself and hopefully other people at the same time, if that makes sense.

• 2:03:28Trevor Noah?

  That makes complete sense. That's when you know you've, you've reached your ultimate purpose.

• 2:03:32Speaker 00

  I mean, I'm.

• 2:03:32Trevor Noah?

  When it serves you first.

• 2:03:33Speaker 00

  Don't you, I, I, in the same speech last night, I said, I became a journalist because I love to write and I'm very nosy. And I am sort of insatiably curious and I, it's hard because I feel frustrated. I think about, God, all this stuff I don't know and understand. But if I can carve out a little bit every day and learn something new or understand something more deeply, that's, that's so great.

• 2:03:59Trevor Noah?

  It's the greatest gift.

• 2:04:00Speaker 00

  Isn't it? I mean, and I think people, people need to, to be open to new information and knowledge. And it's just, and then when you have an, an opinion about something, you know, and I, like, some of the stuff that we've talked about, I don't know, right? And I, and I have to go and study something before I have an opinion.

• 2:04:24Trevor Noah?

  Yeah.

• 2:04:25Speaker 00

  And talk to legitimate experts and really learn about something.

• 2:04:29Trevor Noah?

  You will never work as a podcaster, Katie. You can't, you can't go study the things. We just need opinions now, Katie.

• 2:04:34Speaker 00

  But do you know what I mean?

• 2:04:35Trevor Noah?

  No research required, Katie. Verbal clickbait. This is podcasting, Katie. Someone asks you a question, you go, this is the answer. This is podcasting, Katie. Trying to be informed here. What are you trying to do? Take Eugene's job?

• 2:04:50Speaker 00

  But right, I mean, I don't want to give an opinion like when when you were asking me about national security versus the public's right to know.

• 2:04:59Trevor Noah?

  I saw you do that, yeah, I saw.

• 2:05:00Speaker 00

  Well, I would like to go back and really identify incidents where that happened or didn't happen, so I could talk more intelligently about it.

• 2:05:11Trevor Noah?

  Can I tell you, that is probably one of the greatest learnings we've had on this show over time, is that the people who oftentimes have the most expertise and the people who are oftentimes the most well versed in any particular discipline also operate with higher levels of doubt than everyone else. It's a it's a it's a powerful and beautiful humility to see doctors, scientists, journalists, but I mean, at the top of their game going, I don't know, I need to, yeah, I'm not sure about that, let me, I actually don't know on, and you you go like, wow, oh, this this

• 2:05:51Trevor Noah?

  is, in a strange way, it's like going, an expert is somebody who knows so much that they know how little they know.

• 2:05:59Speaker 00

  Yeah. Right.

• 2:06:00Trevor Noah?

  Do you know what I mean, they they truly like, they go, yeah, I don't, and then the rest of us are genuinely like, ah, I'm an expert in this, it's like, what do you what do you know? I mean, I've watched a few videos, I've seen a few things, I know, but that that thing there is a gift that I hope you don't ever take for granted.

• 2:06:15Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 2:06:15Trevor Noah?

  That doubt, because in your position, I'm on life, I was in your position, I would be like, yo, let me, I had to tell you everything about the news, I know everything about everything, you can't tell me nothing, but for Katie Couric to go, I don't know, let me go and read up on this, let me go and, even for me, just in that moment, it inspired me to be like, oh, yeah, don't forget that you can always go back and read, you can always go back and learn, and you can always admit that you just don't know.

• 2:06:39Speaker 00

  I mean, I think that I've been doing this long enough and I'm old enough to have the confidence, you know, I'm sure there was a time where I would have just like been blah, blah, blah, you know, and even now, I think, oh, gosh, am I going to sound dumb or uninformed or uneducated about a certain thing, like, what would David Sanger, the national security correspondent for the New York Times, say about this? What examples would he give? But I'd rather admit that I don't know than to say something that's wrong.

• 2:07:10Speaker 02

  All great debates are fueled by the risk of being wrong. That's what I think.

• 2:07:14Trevor Noah?

  You're a real one.

• 2:07:15Speaker 02

  You've just proved it, Katie.

• 2:07:16Speaker 00

  I don't know.

• 2:07:17Trevor Noah?

  No, you have. You're a real one. Thank you for joining us.

• 2:07:19Speaker 00

  No, this was really fun.

• 2:07:20Trevor Noah?

  This was amazing.

• 2:07:21Speaker 00

  Gene, so nice to meet you. Really enjoyed talking to you in your new turquoise Zara jacket.

• 2:07:29Speaker 00

  And this was very interesting, you know, you guys raised a lot of issues, asked a lot of questions, proposed a lot of interesting ideas.

• 2:07:40Trevor Noah?

  Interesting.

• 2:07:41Speaker 00

  Challenged sort of the status quo and the way things are done and made me think a lot. So, thank you.

• 2:07:48Trevor Noah?

  Thank you, Katie Kirk. This was genuinely a joy. Thank you so much.

• 2:07:51Speaker 00

  Thank you.

• 2:07:53Trevor Noah?

  What Now with Trevor Noah is produced by Day Zero Productions in partnership with Sirius XM. The show is executive produced by Trevor Noah, Sanaz Yamin, and Jess Hackel. Rebecca Chain is our producer. Our development researcher is Marcia Robiu. Music mixing and mastering by Hannes Brown. Random other stuff by Ryan Hardouf. Thank you so much for listening. Join me next week for another episode of What Now.

• 2:08:40Speaker 06

  What's up, sports fans? I'm Rachel Damita, here to tell you about my show Courtside Club. If you love hoops and hot takes, then you're in the right place. Want to hear about Katelyn Clark's unstoppable rise in the WNBA? How stars like Wemby and Luka Doncic are dominating the NBA? Or maybe you just want the tea on this week's most viral sports moments. Don't worry, we'll keep you updated on all of it. So grab your popcorn and come hang with us. Courtside. You can listen to Courtside Club wherever you get your podcasts. Oui et ah.

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