3 PROVEN Strategies to Winning Every Negotiation (Command the Room!)

Today Lewis speaks with three experts to unlock the secrets of mastering negotiations, earning respect and trust, and sparking positive conversations. First, former FBI negotiator Chris Voss shares his insights on winning every negotiation with strategic tactics. Next, former Secret Service agent Evy Pompouras teaches listeners how to gain respect and trust from anyone with confidence and integrity. Finally, viral trial lawyer Jefferson Fisher provides valuable tips on how to spark positive relationships through conversation mastery. You won't want to miss these invaluable insights that can revolutionize the way you communicate, connect, and negotiate more effectively! In this episode you will learnHow to use tactical empathy and mirroring techniques to win negotiations. The importance of body language and verbal cues in gaining trust and respect. Strategies for turning adversarial conversations into collaborative discussions. Tips for maintaining composure and confidence in high-pressure situations. Techniques for fostering positive relationships through effective communication. For more information go to www.lewishowes.com/1588IT’S MY BIRTHDAY! 41 years for me, 41 gifts for you – register to win a $250 Amazon gift card by clicking this LINKFor more Greatness text PODCAST to +1 (614) 350-3960Full episodes featured today:Chris Voss – https://lewishowes.com/podcast/the-art-of-negotiating-in-business-and-life-with-former-fbi-agent-chris-voss-podcast/Evy Pompouras – https://link.chtbl.com/1270-podJefferson Fisher – https://link.chtbl.com/1473-pod Get more from Lewis! Get my New York Times Bestselling book, Make Money Easy! Get The Greatness Mindset audiobook on SpotifyText Lewis AIYouTubeInstagramWebsiteTiktokFacebookX

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Lewis Howes?

  Welcome to this special masterclass. We've brought some of the top experts in the world to help you unlock the power of your life through this specific theme today. It's going to be powerful, so let's go ahead and dive in.

• 0:13Speaker 01

  Secret to gaining the upper hand in negotiations is giving the other side the illusion of control. Now, I'm coming at you as a very control-oriented negotiator. As soon as you don't struggle with me over control, you actually begin to gain an advantage. Negotiators who want to talk all the time, they feel out of control when they're not talking. So you want to get them to the point where they don't talk, but they don't talk because they're relaxed, not because they're trying to seize control. And the nicer you are, the more movable you could be. You don't have to give up that much assertion. You just, you don't want to be that mean. And a lot of times, you won't tell me stuff if I ask. Hostage negotiators trigger information without asking questions.

• 0:54Speaker 01

  The nicer you are, the more movable you could be. The style of being, you can be very aggressive without, or very assertive without being aggressive. You don't have to give up that much assertion. You just, you don't want to be that mean. You don't want to be that hard on people.

• 1:06Lewis Howes?

  For example, what do you mean? Like how?

• 1:08Speaker 01

  Well, you know, there's, there's, we're in LA.

• 1:11Lewis Howes?

  Yes.

• 1:12Speaker 01

  There's a great guy here in town. His name is Tom Girardi, voted top trial attorney in California, several years in a row by the Bar Association. He gets a voted top trial attorney so many times that when they put it on the front page, they say, again. So he comes in and he's a guest of my class at USC. And he stepped in, I know he's a top trial attorney, but I don't know his style. I figure he's going to be an attack dog. Cause I spent so much time in New York, you know, I'm used to attack dog attorneys. And Tom walks into the class and he says, you know, the key to negotiations is being nice and gentle. Now, what Tom does by being nice is get you to drop your

• 1:49Speaker 01

  guard. And Tom is an immovable, unrelenting opponent. And that's why he's so successful. And he's ridiculously nice about it. Like he smiles and he chats with people. And he always talks about how we'll collaborate with each other in the future. He's, you get into an argument with him and immediately he'll bend it. Where he's talking with you about how you and I are going to be successful together 10 years from now. Or in the future, which is the same thing a hostage negotiator does. Like if you're barricading the bank, I'm going to say, my first goal is to get you out of there alive. Well, I picked a point in the future that we can collaborate on. Tom Girardi does this instinctively.

• 2:35Speaker 01

  And he's just super nice about it. I mean, like you, either you go to cooperate with him because you like him so much. He's never gonna let up on you. Or more than likely, you're gonna say something accidentally. And, and he gets people saying stuff accidentally and he, and then he could, and then he doesn't jump on you if you say something accidentally. He lets you say so many things accidentally.

• 2:58Lewis Howes?

  What do you mean accidentally?

• 2:59Speaker 01

  Well, like, you know, he loves to get people on, on uncovered emails that they never should have written. Like, if you, if you send Tom an email saying, Tom, let's go have lunch together. He will not email you back saying, okay. Cause he doesn't put anything in emails because that's a downfall of almost every single lawsuit. Somebody who's done something wrong is gonna put it in an email. And Tom knows if he's nice to the other side long enough, he's gonna figure out where those emails are.

• 3:28Speaker 01

  So, and that's what people do all the time. You know, lawsuits are uncovered. People get into trouble with what they put in emails when. When they, when they say, hey, they send an email to somebody else, they say, hey, you know, we, you know, we shouldn't be doing this. And a person sends an email back saying like, yeah, it's okay. No, we're never gonna find out.

• 3:45Lewis Howes?

  Oh, my gosh.

• 3:46Speaker 01

  In today's day and age, people put stuff in emails. And so Tom knows he's just relentlessly nice, relentless. And the most charming guy you ever met in your life. So you don't have to be aggressive. Secret to gaining the upper hand in negotiations is giving the other side the illusion of control. Now, I'm coming at you as a very control oriented negotiation. As soon as you don't struggle with me over control, you actually begin to gain an advantage.

• 4:13Lewis Howes?

  Cause then you feel like you're in control. You don't have to try to gain it anymore.

• 4:17Speaker 01

  Right, right. I'm more than likely gonna start dropping my, if I'm a control freak guy, if I wanna talk all the time, I'm a control freak guy.

• 4:25Speaker 01

  Control freak, uh, negotiators who wanna talk all the time, they feel out of control when they're not talking. So you wanna get them to the point where they don't talk, but they don't talk because they're relaxed, not because they're trying to seize control. So you did, you, you did a real nice job with that. Now, the, the only thing, one, another thing that we teach is see, you're not gonna give me a car. And you're trying to make it sound like you were going to.

• 4:50Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 4:52Speaker 01

  I teach how to say no.

• 4:56Speaker 01

  And then you want to feel other ways of saying, because the real answer to that, just like at the very beginning of my book, you're supposed to look, look at me and say, how am I supposed to do that?

• 5:05Lewis Howes?

  Hmm, so, points it back to a question.

• 5:08Speaker 01

  Right. A how question.

• 5:10Lewis Howes?

  An open-ended question.

• 5:11Speaker 01

  Well, not just open it, how.

• 5:13Lewis Howes?

  Okay.

• 5:13Speaker 01

  How is the key to life?

• 5:16Speaker 01

  Yes is nothing without how.

• 5:19Speaker 01

  So you know, and, and you could also start talking about how without talking about yes.

• 5:24Lewis Howes?

  Hmm, so just say, what I even say.

• 5:26Speaker 01

  You could say, how would I do that?

• 5:28Lewis Howes?

  Would I say, I'd love to get you what you need, how would I do that?

• 5:31Speaker 01

  Just how would I do that?

• 5:32Lewis Howes?

  How would I do that? So give them the control to figure out the solution.

• 5:34Speaker 01

  Right, right, right. How am I supposed to get you the car in that timeframe? Because that's what you're trying to express. There actually is a time problem here.

• 5:43Lewis Howes?

  Right. In 60 seconds, how am I supposed to get you a car?

• 5:46Speaker 01

  Right, right. That, that's different than we can get a car, we just need 60 more seconds.

• 5:51Lewis Howes?

  Right, we need more time, yeah, yeah.

• 5:53Speaker 01

  Right, because, because now I think, now I think you're ducking me.

• 5:57Lewis Howes?

  Okay.

• 5:57Speaker 01

  But if you instead you say like, how much, you know, of course the cars are out here right away, but first of all, I gotta, I gotta tell everybody what we're gonna do. I don't need anybody to get surprised. Let's talk through the details of how this is gonna get done. In the meantime, what got you here in the first place? You know, how, how, how do you find yourself into this kind of a situation? How do I make sure I get you out of there alive? The succession of how questions. How am I supposed to promise to get you a car? If I don't know that she's gonna come out alive? You take what you want

• 6:37Speaker 01

  and make it the path to what I want.

• 6:41Speaker 01

  You know, how am I supposed to get you in here? If it doesn't benefit me also?

• 6:46Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 6:47Speaker 01

  So, as, as soon as in any negotiation, what I want is now a means of getting what you want, then that changes the dynamic right away.

• 6:58Lewis Howes?

  So, so how do you deal in a negotiation with the kind of person who has to win, who has to get everything they want? They're very controlling, alpha.

• 7:05Speaker 01

  Right.

• 7:06Lewis Howes?

  And it's their way or no way.

• 7:09Speaker 01

  Well, getting everything they want is actually third on their list. First of all, being in control is number one on their list, and that's emotionally satisfying. The second thing is the alpha type, which is, we refer to that as the assertive. The one thing that's more important to them than actually getting what they want is being respected and making sure that you know everything about what they're coming from.

• 7:39Speaker 01

  So, and it's a classic guy who's working for his boss and said, you know what, my boss didn't do what I wanted him to do, but he heard me out, or she heard me out. I can live with the direction that we're going, as long as I know that my boss knows my opinion. And so that the assertive type of negotiator, it's really more important to them that they felt that they conducted themselves respected, respectably, that you respected them, and that you knew what they were coming from. And once they know those things, they'll actually soften up on what they want.

• 8:13Lewis Howes?

  If they feel disrespected, they'll probably be more frustrated and angry and

• 8:16Speaker 01

  Right.

• 8:16Lewis Howes?

  demanding.

• 8:17Speaker 01

  Right, right, right, right.

• 8:18Lewis Howes?

  So you have to respect.

• 8:19Speaker 01

  Because when they're very demanding, what they're really saying to you subtly is, I want you to know how important this is to me.

• 8:25Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 8:26Speaker 01

  I want you to know how important I am.

• 8:29Lewis Howes?

  So how do you meet that person? Just come to them with respect or with calm or?

• 8:34Speaker 01

  You could say, look, you're impressive. You're phenomenal.

• 8:37Lewis Howes?

  You've thought it's all out, this is very...

• 8:40Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, clearly you know where you're coming from, you know what you want.

• 8:45Speaker 01

  I'm lucky to be talking to you at all.

• 8:47Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 8:48Speaker 01

  I mean, if were I to sit down with Donald Trump, I would in fact be lucky to be in the same room with him. That'd be the first thing I'd say to him. I'd say,

• 8:56Lewis Howes?

  Stroke his ego.

• 8:57Speaker 01

  You're an American icon.

• 8:58Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 8:59Speaker 01

  You know, you're the symbol of American business, certainly in New York City. Yeah, you know, stroking their ego is not a bad thing. And, you know, it's a version of empathy. Because that's how they see themselves. And, you know, the emotional recognition, like emotional currency is not going to solve every deal.

• 9:21Speaker 01

  I just don't wanna try to solve any deal with money when I could have solved it with emotional currency. I'm saving my money.

• 9:27Lewis Howes?

  With emotional empathy, currency, intelligence.

• 9:30Speaker 01

  Right, right. My money's too important to me to waste it when I could buy something with satisfaction.

• 9:36Lewis Howes?

  Hmm.

• 9:37Speaker 01

  So, yeah.

• 9:38Lewis Howes?

  I like that.

• 9:38Speaker 01

  I'm enormously tight with my now.

• 9:41Lewis Howes?

  And so many people, or especially men in business deals, I feel like there's a lot of alpha men who are trying to get what they want. And so somehow they'll, they'll lose money because they're not able to have empathy, or they're not able to, whatever. They're not able to drop their ego.

• 9:56Speaker 01

  Yeah, a lot, a lot of, a lot of money's left on the, on the, on the table over stuff like that.

• 10:00Lewis Howes?

  Hmm.

• 10:01Speaker 01

  Or what they value themselves on. Like, price is the most, price is the most emotional term in a negotiation because you value yourself based on price. But if I can get you to value yourself in another way, it puts you on a magazine cover.

• 10:17Lewis Howes?

  Hmm. Stroke the ego in some other way.

• 10:19Speaker 01

  It used to be you get Donald Trump in any magazine you wanted to if you put him on a cover. You know, imagine the amount of time, and that used to be his deal. If you wanted to do an article on Donald Trump, the deal was he made the cover. And, and then he would knock himself out for the people doing the articles.

• 10:36Lewis Howes?

  Oh, yeah.

• 10:36Speaker 01

  On access.

• 10:38Lewis Howes?

  Anything.

• 10:38Speaker 01

  Answering questions. Imagine how valuable his time was. They got a cover to the magazine anyway. I gotta put somebody on it.

• 10:45Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 10:46Speaker 01

  You know, now they're trading something that costs them nothing.

• 10:49Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 10:49Speaker 01

  And he's giving them dynamic interviews.

• 10:52Lewis Howes?

  And he's promoting them hard and he's sharing them with everyone. He's framing it everywhere and.

• 10:56Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 10:57Lewis Howes?

  Interesting.

• 10:58Speaker 01

  So you, you know, you're buying Donald Trump with emotional recognition.

• 11:02Lewis Howes?

  Uh, so what are the characteristics that make a great negotiator? In your field and also how do those translate into the business and relationship world? Just in general, outside of.

• 11:14Speaker 01

  Well, let the other side go first.

• 11:18Speaker 01

  You know, most people have are so so they're burning with their argument. Here's why you should make this deal. And they've got that memorized and and they're not going to listen to a word you say till they get it out. So trying to talk to them is really like trying to talk to a paranoid schizophrenic.

• 11:35Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 11:35Speaker 01

  Because they're rehearsing their speech in their head and their logic. And so they they just you just can't get through to them.

• 11:41Lewis Howes?

  Hmm.

• 11:42Speaker 01

  So you let them go, you let them go first and um a another guy Ned Colletti, a former GM of the Dodgers. Friend of mine here in town, phenomenal negotiator. He's lectured at my class at USC also. You know, and Ned always likes to let the other side go first. You know, he did the Barry Bonds deal. He's done a ton of deals across the board. And Ned says, well, you know, in a two hour phone call, there's going to be 90 seconds of solid gold. Where my the person I'm talking to, based on changes that they made in their tone of voice and the adjectives that they used. I mean, he's got an instinct for it. He couldn't he couldn't identify. He's just always say there's 90 seconds of solid gold. And I'd say, what is that?

• 12:25Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 12:25Speaker 01

  And we we talk it through. He says, well, yeah, it's going to be a change in the tone of voice. It's going to be a different kind of adjective. So Ned wants you to go first because he wants to know what's going to take to make the deal.

• 12:35Lewis Howes?

  What they want.

• 12:36Speaker 01

  Right. Yeah, what they what they're burning for or how they characterize what they have.

• 12:42Lewis Howes?

  Or what they're not saying too, maybe.

• 12:43Speaker 01

  Exactly right. What someone has failed to say is often a lot more important than what they have said. Which is why I give it a little if thought in advance, all right, what they're going to what are they going to say if they if they've got this? So I I actually like to look for more of what they haven't said. What's glaringly missing. And that's going to take, I'm going to need you to walk through it a couple of times before that jumps out at me.

• 13:08Lewis Howes?

  Hmm, okay, okay. Um, who are the most difficult people to work with then? Would you say it's the alpha people or would you say it's the uncertain people? Or what type of people are hard to work in negotiation with?

• 13:19Speaker 01

  You know, you're talking about a little bit of a tight match that has a has a tendency. It's a little bit based on how bad I want to make the deal. Like, I don't like liars.

• 13:29Lewis Howes?

  Hmm.

• 13:29Speaker 01

  Or I don't like the most difficult people to work with in the long run. Or people who haven't thought anything through, which is as bad as a liar, only their hearts not in the wrong place.

• 13:40Lewis Howes?

  They don't know what they want.

• 13:42Speaker 01

  Right.

• 13:42Lewis Howes?

  Specifically.

• 13:42Speaker 01

  Or they don't know how they're gonna, they don't know how they're gonna get this done, which is, again, we go over and over again, I go over and over again, yes is nothing without how. Like, and the person who thinks like, yes is gonna make a deal, well, yes is not gonna make a deal, cuz you gotta have how.

• 13:57Lewis Howes?

  Hmm.

• 13:58Speaker 01

  How are we gonna put this together? And someone that doesn't think things through, a lot of times, they're actually kinda dysfunctional on their own side. So they'll make promises they can't keep, and they have no idea they can't keep those promises.

• 14:10Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 14:11Speaker 01

  And so, when they take your deal, you think you've done a deal with them, they take it back to their company, and their company goes like, no, we're not doing this, it's a stupid idea, we can't do this.

• 14:20Lewis Howes?

  Sure.

• 14:21Speaker 01

  And that happens a lot. I think in, in a private sector, I've heard from a number of companies, that fully fifty percent of the deals that they make that don't go through get killed internally. Because somebody cut a deal for them, and they took it back to the company, and the company says, no, that, that violates our terms and conditions.

• 14:38Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 14:38Speaker 01

  We can't deliver on that basis. So you're dealing with someone who just has no, doesn't have a clue as to what's going on on their side.

• 14:45Lewis Howes?

  Sure.

• 14:46Speaker 01

  A lot of people like that.

• 14:47Lewis Howes?

  When you're making a business deal, what do you recommend as the amount of time to consider the deal before saying, yes, let's do it? Like, here's the deal points, here's what you want, here's what I want, okay, should we sign it right away, should we give it twenty-four hours, should we take it to our team, should it be a week? You know, what's like, kind of a standard, you think?

• 15:06Speaker 01

  Um, unless you've got something in line a- ahead of time, um, the company name is the Black Swan Group, cuz we believe there's black swans in every negotiation, which is something you didn't know, that as soon as you found out, it's gonna change all the parameters.

• 15:19Lewis Howes?

  The deal. Gotcha.

• 15:21Speaker 01

  So you sit down at the table to find out the unknowns.

• 15:23Lewis Howes?

  Huh.

• 15:25Speaker 01

  And you, it's impossible to research all the unknowns. Plus, a lot of the unknowns, I'll find them a lot faster if I just ask you. And I could research for two weeks, something that I may be able to get you to tell me about in ten minutes.

• 15:39Lewis Howes?

  For example, what do you mean, something you'd want to ask?

• 15:41Speaker 01

  Um, I'm do, I'm, uh, speaking to a long, for a long time client. And they have another firm that I've been affiliated with, coming, doing a different block. When I found out they were doing that block, I could subtly reach back through my network to find out what the, the competing slash partnership firm of mine is. What they're charging, or I could just flat out.

• 16:04Lewis Howes?

  Ask them.

• 16:04Speaker 01

  Well, I need to get the information, a lot of information you gotta get by not asking, you gotta trigger it. You know, the, the phrase, ask good questions, it's really get good information. And a lot of times you won't tell me stuff if I ask. But if I act like I already know, or if I, there are other ways hostage negotiators trigger information without asking questions.

• 16:32Speaker 02

  When people feel too comfortable with you, they will challenge you more.

• 16:37Lewis Howes?

  In what ways?

• 16:38Speaker 02

  They will test you more, they will push back more. The more comfortable people feel with you. Think of it, the people that know you the best in life, they push you back, they push back the most, they'll call you out the most. And sometimes not, not, not in a healthy way, in an unpleasant way. But if you're, there's something powerful with keeping some things about you to you. You don't have to be an open book. I know this goes against a lot, you know, a lot of be vulnerable, be vulnerable. I'm not telling you to be a jerk, and I'm not telling you to conceal everything about you. But what I'm telling you is, you need to have a filter. Nobody needs to know, people don't need to know everything about you.

• 17:14Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 17:15Speaker 02

  Keep that stuff to yourself.

• 17:17Lewis Howes?

  When you were doing your interviews or interrogations,

• 17:22Lewis Howes?

  would you ever, or did you ever become too vulnerable? As a, I guess, strategy to try to get the other person to open up and share their vulnerabilities and kind of reveal that they did the thing they did?

• 17:35Speaker 02

  I think what I just did is I empathized the most.

• 17:38Lewis Howes?

  Okay.

• 17:38Speaker 02

  Because in truth, can I?

• 17:41Lewis Howes?

  I can see how you feel about this, I had an experience, you know, I had a.

• 17:44Speaker 02

  Well, if it's a criminal investigation, hold it not, oh, you killed her, well, I could see why.

• 17:49Lewis Howes?

  Why I felt this in my life, or whatever it may be.

• 17:51Speaker 02

  No, no, because that would be disingenuous. So I'll give you an example.

• 17:57Speaker 02

  There's a difference between pretending, I understand and understanding empathy is. I've. I've been there with you. So when you, when I came in, I said, Louis, you know, I'm really sorry about your dad. Right?

• 18:10Lewis Howes?

  Yes.

• 18:10Speaker 02

  So I've also lost my dad.

• 18:12Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 18:12Speaker 02

  So if I, if I said to you, Louis, I'm sorry about your dad, I understand how that feels. Can I say that to you? Do I understand?

• 18:19Lewis Howes?

  Hmm.

• 18:20Speaker 02

  If, because my, I lost my dad.

• 18:22Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 18:22Speaker 02

  You would say she lost her father too, so she understands. Now, if I never lost my father.

• 18:28Lewis Howes?

  You couldn't say that.

• 18:29Speaker 02

  And I said that to you, you kind of be like, you don't really know.

• 18:32Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 18:33Speaker 02

  You still have your dad.

• 18:34Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 18:34Speaker 02

  So. When you empathize with someone in a scenario where let's say you had just lost your dad and I didn't. I would try to empathize. That must be very difficult. I'm sorry to hear that. Now.

• 18:45Lewis Howes?

  But not relating it to yourself.

• 18:46Speaker 02

  Not relating to myself. So the only way you can relate it to yourself and it be genuine. Is. If you experienced the exact same thing the other person did. So in this scenario, yes. You lost your dad. I lost my dad.

• 19:00Lewis Howes?

  Yes.

• 19:00Speaker 02

  So then you would feel genuine. So it would be the same thing when you speak to people.

• 19:05Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 19:06Speaker 02

  So it's, it's how you, how you say it. So if you, if you're not experienced the exact same thing. The best thing to do is say, I'm sorry to hear that. That must be so difficult. I can't imagine.

• 19:16Lewis Howes?

  Hmm.

• 19:17Speaker 02

  I'm here for you if you need anything. You would do something along those lines. Instead of saying, I know how you feel. And we're trying to then. And this is what you don't want to do. Cause when you first told me, actually, I didn't say to you, I lost my dad.

• 19:29Lewis Howes?

  Mm hmm.

• 19:30Speaker 02

  Because I would take away from what I was sharing with you. I made it now about me. Oh, you lost your dad? Let me tell you about my dad. My dad died too. He died of cancer and all this stuff and.

• 19:39Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 19:39Speaker 02

  I'll go into that story. It takes away. So it's your story, your narrative, and I'm gonna let you just talk to me about it.

• 19:47Lewis Howes?

  Mm hmm.

• 19:47Speaker 02

  And then if later mine comes up, fine.

• 19:49Lewis Howes?

  Sure, sure.

• 19:50Speaker 02

  So you don't wanna make it about you. This is that me, me, me, me syndrome. When people are speaking to you, allow them to own their story. Don't feel that you have to be, oh yeah, I do the same thing. Oh yeah, this. They don't, one, they don't typically care.

• 20:04Lewis Howes?

  Mm hmm.

• 20:05Speaker 02

  Unless you've been through the exact same thing and you feel that by bringing that up. That person needs that. Fine.

• 20:12Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 20:13Speaker 02

  But don't do it.

• 20:13Lewis Howes?

  You don't even need to, yeah.

• 20:14Speaker 02

  If you don't need to, don't bring it in. Don't, don't bring in the noise.

• 20:18Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 20:18Speaker 02

  Let that person's story be their story. Cause what you're doing is you're bringing in your own stuff and.

• 20:23Lewis Howes?

  Give them that moment, yeah.

• 20:24Speaker 02

  Let them have that moment.

• 20:26Lewis Howes?

  I want to go back to something you you mentioned briefly that I thought would be interesting for people. When you're asking someone, when you want to get information out of someone, boyfriend, girlfriend, whatever, interrogating a criminal, whatever it might be, is it more Employee, yes. Is it more effective to ask direct question? Did you do this? Or you did this? Or is it better to ask an open-ended question and see what happens next?

• 20:55Speaker 02

  So, direct questions are not good, and this is why. Most people do this, they go in for the kill, so to speak, and they get garbage. You get nothing.

• 21:02Lewis Howes?

  What do people say?

• 21:03Speaker 02

  Yeah, they shut you down. Nobody, and especially if it's a sensitive topic, they're not gonna want to tell you. It's like, did you do it? Yeah, hey, I did. Let me tell you, sit down. You want to let people adjust. It's almost like you put their feet in the water, in the pool. You, you, your feet, when you go into the ocean, you acclimate to the water. Some people dive in, yes.

• 21:24Lewis Howes?

  Sometimes I jump in, because it's too cold to just go in.

• 21:27Speaker 02

  But for the most part, the idea is you acclimate, and then by the time you get in, you're, you're the same temperature. When you speak to people, then that's the way to do it. And you don't have to get the information in that moment. You want to work on people over time. So you want to get admissions, which is pieces of information. If we make it about a crime per se, right? Rather than going, well, did you do this? Did you do this to this person? Did you rape this person? Kill this person?

• 21:54Lewis Howes?

  Steal this thing.

• 21:55Speaker 02

  Steal this thing. And I would never say steal. Sounds ugly.

• 21:59Lewis Howes?

  You take this.

• 22:00Speaker 02

  Did you take this? Rape sounds ugly too. I would never say rape or, or, or kill. I would say, did you, did you hurt this person? Did you, you know, lose yourself? I would use different terms.

• 22:10Lewis Howes?

  Interesting.

• 22:11Speaker 02

  Sounds nicer. Even if somebody lies. Hey, man, you're lying to me. Ooh. Louis is like, no. Louis, you're not, there's something you're missing. There's something you didn't tell me. I feel there's a part of the story I'm missing here. I want you to be comfortable enough to tell me.

• 22:25Lewis Howes?

  So you would say that?

• 22:26Speaker 02

  Yeah. Sounds different. So, that's one. Think about the words coming out of your mouth. What do I sound like? And then more importantly, what do they hear when I speak? Not to what, not what do I think I'm saying? Cause everyone's like, oh, I just said this. What did I say? Doesn't matter what you think you said. What matters is what they hear.

• 22:46Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 22:46Speaker 02

  When you speak. Based off of their viewpoint, their biases, their DNA, their genetic makeup, their, their drama, their trauma, all their stuff. Cause they bring that in. When they communicate.

• 22:59Lewis Howes?

  Mm hmm.

• 22:59Speaker 02

  So you have to keep that in mind.

• 23:01Lewis Howes?

  Are you also thinking about? Are you trying to learn about the background of the person before you have a connection or a conversation with them? And get as much information on them before? Where they're from, who they are, you know?

• 23:14Speaker 02

  Depends what you want.

• 23:15Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 23:15Speaker 02

  What is your goal? Like, what are you looking to get? And obviously sometimes time's a factor if you're hiring somebody. I think. When you do, here's some tips. When you're doing your job interviews or you're, you're bringing people on or you're working with people. You wanna sit them down. You don't wanna sit like the way we are here. With a table between you and the person. You want an open space. So you've got like two sofas. Sit down. That's openness. This is a, a barrier.

• 23:41Lewis Howes?

  Uh huh.

• 23:41Speaker 02

  It's just, it causes a break between us. There's also formality with the table. And I feel like I'm being interviewed.

• 23:47Lewis Howes?

  More professional than as opposed to relaxed.

• 23:49Speaker 02

  And the thing is this, if you wanna know. Who you're hiring, let's say, or who you're dealing with. Or who you're bringing into your space. You want openness and you want them to speak to you in an open way.

• 24:00Lewis Howes?

  Freely.

• 24:00Speaker 02

  So you can get all the information. Tell me about yourself. How did you grow up? You know, where are you from? No kidding. What's about this? What, what about that? Now you get them and then you flow into the other questions. But if people feel like they're being interviewed, that they're gonna bring them.

• 24:15Lewis Howes?

  Mm hmm.

• 24:15Speaker 02

  Bring that. So you wanna get people to feel comfortable and you wanna have that openness. Also, when you have a table. It cuts off the lower body.

• 24:22Lewis Howes?

  You can't see their. Triggers.

• 24:24Speaker 02

  There's, there's tells.

• 24:26Lewis Howes?

  Uh huh.

• 24:26Speaker 02

  There's tells.

• 24:27Lewis Howes?

  If you cross their legs, they're fidgety.

• 24:28Speaker 02

  They're fidgety. Maybe you ask me a question about. Abby, did you ever get fired from a job? And then I cross my legs as soon as you ask me that question. You're not gonna say anything. You're gonna take a mental note. Oh. Abby just crossed her legs right when I asked her that question. Why? I need to, I need to sort myself.

• 24:48Speaker 02

  I need to, I need to pay attention to that.

• 24:51Lewis Howes?

  Yes.

• 24:52Speaker 02

  Right? So that you want to just take notice. The whole goal is to be curious. And so if we can give it a term, maybe you need to Lewis house yourself.

• 25:02Lewis Howes?

  There you go.

• 25:02Speaker 02

  Yeah. When people come in, you are super curious about.

• 25:08Lewis Howes?

  Is there another line of communication that you use? Maybe even unknowingly that you use consistently that seems to just help you enroll people in more of what you want?

• 25:21Jefferson Fisher?

  So I do, I absolutely use the what's the chance?

• 25:25Lewis Howes?

  Really?

• 25:26Jefferson Fisher?

  Yeah, so I will use that when it feels like a like a stalemate between the other attorney. And look, what's the chance that your client's going to be able to do X, Y, and Z? Also, I will try to separate the attorney from the client. Same way I do with like the reception clerk versus the hotel. I, I, I make sure that I acknowledge them as the person because I acknowledge their struggle of what they're going through.

• 25:58Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 25:58Jefferson Fisher?

  And so if I talk to the attorney of, look, I can only imagine, you know, all the updates you're, you're having to do or all the work you're putting through. I, I know that this is how you're doing the best thing you can for your client. I mean, between me and you, what, what, what's the chance that we can do X, Y, and Z? Or if I were to do, or if I were to say, or if my client were, if I were to encourage my client to do this, is that something that I should do?

• 26:26Jefferson Fisher?

  And it gives them something to think about.

• 26:28Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 26:29Jefferson Fisher?

  The same way like at a, let's say at a hotel or something like that. I, I can only imagine you just been, how, how long's your shift?

• 26:35Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 26:35Jefferson Fisher?

  Yeah, seven hours. And I'm like, gosh, yeah, that's gonna be, and so you just, yeah, you kind of create that connection with them that says, I'm talking to you individually as a person rather than seeing you as the whole. Then, because that's who they are.

• 26:47Lewis Howes?

  Yeah, exactly. That's powerful. I want to go back to the, uh, the panic attacks for a moment.

• 26:55Lewis Howes?

  Does it sound like you, you really studied and researched a lot on how you could manage and, and? And have a better relationship with the anxiety or the stress that you were having for those eight days. Have you had more panic attacks since the moment?

• 27:09Jefferson Fisher?

  They've gotten less and less and less.

• 27:10Lewis Howes?

  Less and less, like five, 10 minutes at a time or something?

• 27:13Jefferson Fisher?

  Yeah, so, uh, well, I haven't had, I probably haven't had a panic attack. I've gotten very close probably in the last like three weeks, but what it is, is like a sense of boiling water. Like I can feel the water boiling and then I'm, and I can feel it in my body. Like I can feel it in my fingers of.

• 27:31Lewis Howes?

  A tingly.

• 27:32Jefferson Fisher?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. Or I'm typically never somebody to shake my leg. But if all of a sudden my leg is shaking, then I'm like, okay, something's up. And then all like, that'll tell me right away of, all right, what, what are we doing? What's going on? Be able to kind of check in with myself and, and how that's been, but it's, it's progressed much better. Yeah, it, it really has. Therapy helps.

• 27:55Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 27:56Jefferson Fisher?

  And I, in the, that was really the source was not feeling alone in this kind of ecosystem that I didn't ask for. Like that, this is never my goal of like, if I can only get so many.

• 28:10Lewis Howes?

  Followers.

• 28:10Jefferson Fisher?

  Yeah, it was like, uh, let's just go, I don't know, I got a few minutes, like I'll talk to my phone.

• 28:15Lewis Howes?

  Yeah. What is the, what is the relationship been like with your wife and your kids since experiencing the rise of your audience, but also the stress and panic that you've experienced over the last six months? How has your wife shown up for you? And, and how has it made you relate to your family differently?

• 28:40Jefferson Fisher?

  Well, having kids has made me much more just empathetic as a, as a person. And I'll tell you that it's, it is a way that we relate to each other is when I see them start to get really emotional. I can see myself in it. My son looks a lot like me. And so I can, it's very much this kind of weird inner child like dialogue. Like I'm telling them things that I wish I could have. Oh, man. I would have been told, you know, hey, man, it's okay to cry. Wow. Let it out, let it out. I was never told that. But I went, I'm not gonna make that mistake.

• 29:19Jefferson Fisher?

  And so my son is extremely waterworks all the time, and I love it. I mean, he's emotional in movies. I love it. And I was, and so I had to, to see that where I go, no, no, no, I've, I've had that mistake of trying to put on this. Jefferson's got it all together. This mask. Yeah, yeah, this, I got it all, I got it all together. It's, it's, you are, just let it out, man. So it's all good. It's all good. And he will, he'll just cry, say, I can't help it. And I'll say, you don't need to. He's good, man. You're good. He's, he's very, both of my kids are extremely empathetic with, with movies.

• 29:59Jefferson Fisher?

  I, I shared something before of, this was like not that long ago, and my son says, how your day was that? It was good, buddy. It was, it was, it was good. And he was like, what, what'd you do? I was like, well, it was, it was just good. It was a good day. It was fine. Truthfully, it was not good. Like, it was, it was a really horrible. It was a rough day. It was a rough day. I was tired. And later on that evening, he came up to me again, and he said, so why'd you tell me your day was good when it wasn't? Wow. I said, what? He said, you didn't, he said, you said it was good, but it didn't, you didn't say it like it was good.

• 30:39Jefferson Fisher?

  I was like, how did you, how'd you know? He's like, you said it like it wasn't good. You said it like it was bad. They feel everything. Yes. And I was like, how are you this young? And like, he had already sensed it. He told me he was good. He wasn't. Wow. And so that, that kind of aspect of it, when you say, how's my wife showing up for me? She's allowed me to have the time to kind of explore, hey, you need to make sure you're taking care of yourself. And she's awesome at supporting anything that I'm after. And we support both of our careers. She has a full-time career. I was her doing her thing in, in, in school and school, though. And I have my, my legal career and.

• 31:19Jefferson Fisher?

  In terms of the social media stuff, it doesn't affect anything like you could you could call it finstagram like nobody at my house. It doesn't exist at my house. It's just your dad, mom, kids, mayhem. That's all that's all it is. Now, she's very supportive of it and they know that every once in a while dad will make a video.

• 31:41Lewis Howes?

  Sure.

• 31:42Jefferson Fisher?

  So because they want to make videos.

• 31:44Lewis Howes?

  I'm curious with your upbringing, which sounds like you had a great upbringing, but also things that maybe you wish you would have had or experienced in certain ways from parents or life. And with what you're experiencing now from, you know, building your career, getting married at a young age in today's society and and now having this kind of following and presence.

• 32:08Lewis Howes?

  What are three lessons? If you could only teach three lessons to your kids right now, what would those three lessons be that you wish you would have known growing up or that you did now and you want them to know?

• 32:21Jefferson Fisher?

  One would be always be authentic to who you are personally. Don't ever try to be anybody else than than who you are. I can tell you that. Anytime I felt like I've needed to be somebody else, it was the wrong call. Every time that I tried to be either more or less than just exactly who I am. You know, I see it as just a floor in an elevator. Doesn't mean it's a better floor or not. It's just you need to be exactly where you're meant to be. Two is it's okay to to feel like there are it's okay to make mistakes. I grew up in a house where it was very

• 33:04Jefferson Fisher?

  it was a lot of it. I'll admit let's put on myself expectations of being the best at everything you could be at whatever it was. I just enjoyed it. And but the understanding that they don't have to put that pressure on on themselves. And number three is be kind to everybody. Kindness kindness and never.

• 33:27Jefferson Fisher?

  It never changes. People value it now. They always, they always have.

• 33:33Lewis Howes?

  We could talk for hours, man, but I want to wrap things up here in a few minutes. Jefferson underscore Fisher on Instagram.

• 33:40Jefferson Fisher?

  Yeah.

• 33:42Lewis Howes?

  Also, all over social media, you can find you. I'll have everything linked up there.

• 33:46Jefferson Fisher?

  Oh, cool. Thanks.

• 33:46Lewis Howes?

  You've got a, you've got a book you're working on that we'll probably have you back on in the future when that comes out. But I want people to follow you on Instagram, TikTok, Facebook, all the places. Hopefully we'll get you on YouTube soon.

• 33:57Jefferson Fisher?

  Yeah.

• 33:57Lewis Howes?

  And um. You do a daily video, man. Your video, I mean, almost every day it seems like it's like every day you're giving wisdom. You're given inspiration from daily lessons in law and your experience in life and.

• 34:10Jefferson Fisher?

  Right.

• 34:10Lewis Howes?

  It's really inspiring to see you create from a place of generosity, from a place of service. So I want to acknowledge you for the consistency. And I also want to acknowledge you for opening up about the panics that you've expressed.

• 34:25Jefferson Fisher?

  That was hard.

• 34:26Lewis Howes?

  And being vulnerable with your community and saying, hey, listen, guys, this is something I've never experienced and. You know, I love having this community, but also I feel this sense of pressure and this overwhelm that I've never experienced in my life and. And I think it's powerful to be talking about it because what we keep hidden and we hide. Continues to manifest and hurt us.

• 34:46Jefferson Fisher?

  You got it.

• 34:47Lewis Howes?

  And stress us. So the fact that you're talking about it is probably allowing you to release some.

• 34:52Jefferson Fisher?

  It really is.

• 34:53Lewis Howes?

  And relax some.

• 34:54Jefferson Fisher?

  Yeah.

• 34:54Lewis Howes?

  I'm not saying it's going to solve every issue you have mentally or emotionally, but it's allowing you to set yourself free. So I acknowledge you for not having it all put together. Not saying the perfect thing every time and allowing yourself to express how you feel. Which sounds like is what your body needs.

• 35:11Jefferson Fisher?

  Yeah, thank you very much. That's very well put.

• 35:14Lewis Howes?

  Yeah. So I acknowledge you for that. Um, it's interesting. There's a question I ask a lot of people. I've got two final questions for you, but before I ask those, there's a question I ask a lot of people on here. Who. Rise to success or audience growth quickly within a period of time of seeming overnight or months or a year, right? Where they get this big audience. Let me ask this question. I'm just curious because I want people to listen and hear the response. So if you could go back before you posted your first Instagram video, year and a half ago, or whenever it was, or when you did it and you didn't have that many followers.

• 35:58Jefferson Fisher?

  Mm hmm.

• 35:58Lewis Howes?

  If you could go back and ask yourself on a scale of one to 10, how much inner peace and self-love you had for yourself, 10 being a very high level in a humble way, one being zero peace, all chaos and stress inside of you.

• 36:19Jefferson Fisher?

  Mm hmm.

• 36:19Lewis Howes?

  Where were you on a scale of one to 10 before the rise of social media success? 10 being very peaceful internally and calm and confident and less stress and one being chaos.

• 36:33Jefferson Fisher?

  I would probably say I was a, I was a solid eight. There was a sense of, you sure you want to put yourself on the phone and in your car? You know, friends are going to see this, right?

• 36:43Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 36:43Jefferson Fisher?

  Like, I'm not worried about strangers. You worry about your friends.

• 36:46Lewis Howes?

  Sure.

• 36:46Jefferson Fisher?

  You know, it's, it's easy. You could have all these followers who you really care about. Sometimes they, wait, my, my friend saw this and they didn't.

• 36:54Lewis Howes?

  They don't like it. What do they think about me? Yeah, yeah.

• 36:56Jefferson Fisher?

  Yeah, then it's much easier to get in your head about the people that are in your circle.

• 36:59Lewis Howes?

  Sure.

• 37:00Jefferson Fisher?

  Than the people that are outside.

• 37:01Lewis Howes?

  So you're a solid eight.

• 37:02Jefferson Fisher?

  Yeah.

• 37:03Lewis Howes?

  Before you started doing all this.

• 37:04Jefferson Fisher?

  Yeah.

• 37:05Lewis Howes?

  And then where would you say you currently are, you know, for the last few months consistently?

• 37:10Jefferson Fisher?

  Yeah, how, how I've been, I, I would say I'm a nine right now.

• 37:14Lewis Howes?

  So you have more peace and more self-love. Really?

• 37:17Jefferson Fisher?

  Yeah, well, it had it not been for what I went through at the beginning of this year, with the anxiety, because it's made me, it's really made me hug myself in a way.

• 37:28Lewis Howes?

  Oh, interesting.

• 37:29Jefferson Fisher?

  And, and to, because I would, I would get myself in a place of.

• 37:36Jefferson Fisher?

  I've always been pretty good at, okay, I'll do a video and they'll either like it or they won't. I guess, you know, you just go into the house and you live life. But it is a different aspect here of I very much feel that I am cultivating a community of like-minded people that I mean, I posted that video of explaining about my anxiety. That was a very difficult video for me to even get out. It's a very difficult video for me to even watch. But the like outpouring of love that came from that was just now it feels like I have a lot more, it's weird. I feel more connected to them in a way than than I did before.

• 38:19Lewis Howes?

  Well, vulnerability breeds connection. So

• 38:21Jefferson Fisher?

  Yeah.

• 38:21Lewis Howes?

  You were opening in a different way.

• 38:23Jefferson Fisher?

  Yeah.

• 38:24Lewis Howes?

  Where were you on that scale, you know, in the beginning of the year when you were experiencing that month of panic?

• 38:30Jefferson Fisher?

  I was a two, man. Yeah, it was not, it was not good from, from when it first started.

• 38:35Lewis Howes?

  Sure.

• 38:36Jefferson Fisher?

  To about the time right before the panic attack. Yeah, I had fallen far.

• 38:41Lewis Howes?

  This is, you know, and this is what I want people to, to understand because there's a lot of people that want to have more success, more followers, more financial opportunities, more things coming their way. And I don't know anyone, maybe one person was happier and more peaceful.

• 39:00Lewis Howes?

  A year or two after the, the big success came quickly.

• 39:03Jefferson Fisher?

  Right.

• 39:04Lewis Howes?

  They were always a couple below what they were right before the press came, the opportunities came. Cause they hadn't learned yet how to manage and navigate it. It sounds like you're learning now how to navigate it where you feel peaceful, confident, calm.

• 39:19Jefferson Fisher?

  But had I not, I'd be right there with them.

• 39:21Lewis Howes?

  And just trying to keep your head above water, right? And it, and it always shocks me. I guess it shouldn't shock me anymore now. But most of us are not prepared emotionally or psychologically for Audience growth that quickly for financial growth that quickly, although we think we want certain things.

• 39:41Jefferson Fisher?

  Yeah.

• 39:42Lewis Howes?

  But we may not be emotionally, mentally, physically ready.

• 39:45Jefferson Fisher?

  Right.

• 39:46Lewis Howes?

  For this psychological pressure, which is what it sounds like you had this pressure of this now of this audience, I have to make sure I deliver and don't, don't.

• 39:54Jefferson Fisher?

  Yeah.

• 39:55Lewis Howes?

  Give them the wrong information. What if, what if, what if I let them down?

• 39:57Jefferson Fisher?

  Right. Yeah.

• 39:58Lewis Howes?

  This pressure, which you can't really get away from unless you stop posting.

• 40:02Jefferson Fisher?

  Yeah, unless you just stop. Yeah. I, I, this was not something I sought out to do. It was like, I'm gonna be an influencer doggone. No, I was like, I'm just gonna make a video and let's see.

• 40:11Lewis Howes?

  Trying to help a few people.

• 40:12Jefferson Fisher?

  Yeah, yeah. Let's, let's try. What do I like talking about? And that was the thing was I did it because I like talking about it. And if they like listening, I guess so listen. And then I asked people to follow me at the end of it. Turns out they did. And then it was just like a whole different, uh, whole different ballgame where all of a sudden you look around and go, wait, now if I can, if I compare this to the, the size of my current city in my town that I'm.

• 40:37Lewis Howes?

  This is like 50 times the size of that. Yeah.

• 40:39Jefferson Fisher?

  Oh, it's not even, yeah, not even close.

• 40:41Lewis Howes?

  Right, right.

• 40:42Jefferson Fisher?

  It's a, that becomes, and then I had a buddy of mine who was like, oh, you know, you have X amount of followers. That's like X amount of state, like Dallas Cowboy Stadium or something. And I was like.

• 40:56Lewis Howes?

  Why would you tell me that?

• 40:57Jefferson Fisher?

  It was the first thing that kind of came out.

• 40:59Lewis Howes?

  Sure, sure.

• 40:59Jefferson Fisher?

  But it's like you said, absolutely. You, I was not emotionally prepared on, on that level for that amount of eyes, that amount of pressure. And it wasn't until that my body literally shut down.

• 41:15Lewis Howes?

  Wow.

• 41:16Jefferson Fisher?

  That said, now we gotta, we gotta wake up and make sure you're taking care of yourself because that, that two you were at was quickly starting to go into the negative.

• 41:25Lewis Howes?

  Exactly. And that's where real bad stuff happens.

• 41:27Jefferson Fisher?

  Big time. Yeah.

• 41:28Lewis Howes?

  If you don't address it. So I acknowledge you, man, for, for doing the work and for continually doing it because it's healing's a journey.

• 41:35Jefferson Fisher?

  Yeah.

• 41:35Lewis Howes?

  And so I'm, I'm glad you're on that journey. I feel free to reach out anytime you want some support or just to chat.

• 41:40Jefferson Fisher?

  Absolutely. Absolutely. No, it's meant so much that you've, that you've been here, but.

• 41:44Lewis Howes?

  For sure.

• 41:44Jefferson Fisher?

  That, that means a lot to me.

• 41:45Lewis Howes?

  For sure, man. This is a question I ask everyone towards the end called the three truths. So imagine you get to live as long as you want, but it's your last day on earth. You get to accomplish all the dreams and experiences you wanna have. But for whatever reason, all of your material, your content, your videos, the books you make, all these things, they have to go to the next place with you, or they're no longer in this world.

• 42:08Jefferson Fisher?

  Yeah.

• 42:08Lewis Howes?

  This conversation is gone. But it's your last day on earth and you get to leave behind three truths, three lessons you would share with the world, and this is all we have to remember your wisdom by. What would be those three truths or lessons for you?

• 42:24Jefferson Fisher?

  Number one is the best piece of advice I received from my grandfather, who was an old East Texas attorney. He said, boy, you can't look back and plan a straight row.

• 42:35Jefferson Fisher?

  That's always stuck with me, meaning encouraging people to be in the moment and the present. If you look at what you're doing, rather than looking for the next worry, your head's always going to be in the right place. Number two is you treat people however you want to be treated. Just that very basic golden rule that we've all heard, but sometimes it's the things we've heard the most that we really have soaked up the least. And too many times that I've, you know, we skip over it. And number three would be that at any time that you can, show person kindness because you'll

• 43:17Jefferson Fisher?

  never regret it. There's so many things that I feel like generationally in our existence that we just got wrong. It wasn't our fault. We just weren't ready. Like we thought medicine was something different versus what we think medicine is now, or you look at how we handle punishment or entertainment versus now, but kindness is, it's not affected from inflation or recession or it doesn't depreciate. A little kindness can invaluable.

• 43:51Lewis Howes?

  I love it. That was a great truth, man. Final question, Jefferson, what's your definition of greatness?

• 43:57Jefferson Fisher?

  Greatness is being able to show up for who you are in every level and every stage that you're meant to be in a way that spreads joy.

• 44:07Lewis Howes?

  If someone wants to get a better price on something. So that was, I think, the, first off, before I ask that question, that was the second, I think, mistake. Was there another big mistake people make in negotiation? The price, extreme price anchoring, using too much leverage to try to club someone? Was there another big one?

• 44:21Chris Voss?

  What a lot of people do that's actually taught out there a lot, which is really bad, is continue to ask for stuff after you made a deal. Like, ask for free stuff.

• 44:31Lewis Howes?

  That's the worst, right? We made a good deal, here's a win-win, and now you're asking for extra. And more, and more. It's gonna make, leave a sour taste in someone's mouth.

• 44:39Chris Voss?

  That's every time. And that's taught out there regularly.

• 44:43Lewis Howes?

  Really?

• 44:44Chris Voss?

  It was, you know, there was a negotiation guru from the 80s, and I can't remember what he called it, but he gave the example, you go out and you get a custom-made suit. And you've made the deal for the suit, and one of the guys measuring you. You say, "So how many free ties do I get with that?" And he said, "That's a great way to get free things, free little things, after they made the deal."

• 45:08Lewis Howes?

  Throw in a pocket square, throw in a couple ties, throw in a couple legs.

• 45:11Chris Voss?

  Whatever, whatever it is, you know, what, and what that does is make the person you did it to hate you. Which, they're gonna resent it, and if they have the opportunity to fail to comply with any term, they will do that. Now unfortunately, that's taught really extensively, and it's done in business all the time. People call it scope creep, feature creep.

• 45:34Lewis Howes?

  Interesting.

• 45:34Chris Voss?

  Like, it drives every single business person crazy, because they don't know how to deal with it. Now, the black swan method, you know, you might say, if you were good at how questions, you might say, "How can I give you your free ties and continue to wanna do business with you?" You know, "How can I be a great tailor for you if you ask me for free stuff and it cuts my margin?"

• 46:02Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 46:03Chris Voss?

  You know, make their pro, what they ask for the obstacle to what they want. Either what you want is a path, or if what they want is bad, it's the obstacle. You know, "How can I serve the needs of your family?" If you're cutting into my profit margins.

• 46:21Speaker 01

  Hmm.

• 46:22Chris Voss?

  You know, there's gotta be a way to wake somebody up to it. Cause a lot of people have been taught that. They don't know any better. Like if I'd have stuck to that training that I learned from this guy back in the 1980s. I'd have thought it was okay, cause I'm getting free ties all over the place.

• 46:35Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 46:36Chris Voss?

  Like a lot of people, um, if they, if they don't know any better. How do you wake them up? So that if they only knew they'd change.

• 46:46Speaker 01

  Hmm.

• 46:46Chris Voss?

  Now, there's some people that are doing it on purpose. If you do something like that to me, cause you didn't know any better. Let me see if I can wake you up. If I can wake you up, awesome. We got a great long-term relationship. If I can't wake you up, I now know.

• 47:00Speaker 01

  Hmm.

• 47:02Chris Voss?

  And I'm probably like, okay, cool. This is the last deal I make with this guy.

• 47:05Speaker 01

  One and done, yeah.

• 47:06Chris Voss?

  This is a one and done. I'm out.

• 47:08Speaker 01

  Hmm.

• 47:08Chris Voss?

  But I need to know if, if you just did it by accident. I got a job negotiation, recently brought somebody onto my company.

• 47:17Chris Voss?

  Thought we had the deal settled.

• 47:19Speaker 01

  And the new employee.

• 47:20Chris Voss?

  New employee.

• 47:21Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 47:21Chris Voss?

  Cause, uh, employment contracts like any other. And this person brings up a bunch of other stuff after. We've laid out the terms. We've written the offer letter. We sent the offer letter. Offer letter doesn't get. Signed. Silence. Not a good sign.

• 47:40Speaker 01

  Hmm.

• 47:41Chris Voss?

  My director of operations, who knows no more, into questions. She's just pressing an email. Have you given up on? Signing the offer letter?

• 47:51Speaker 01

  Hmm.

• 47:52Chris Voss?

  Immediately comes back. With a bunch of, you know, not ridiculous. Uh, benefits.

• 48:00Speaker 01

  Hmm. More asks.

• 48:02Chris Voss?

  More asks.

• 48:02Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 48:03Chris Voss?

  Which are not on a plate. Some of them, I'm like, wow, that was interesting. I never thought of that one. No, we can't do that. Not in a million years. This is stuff I aspire to.

• 48:13Speaker 01

  But not you now.

• 48:14Chris Voss?

  We can't do it now, but no, this is, I like this one. It's just not in the package now. But. My director of operations is like, I never had somebody come back. And I'm like, okay. First I gotta do is I gotta find out, did this person just not know any better? So I engaged in the conversation and I said, all right, so however this goes, I want you to understand two things. First of all, I'm glad it came up now as opposed to six months from now.

• 48:38Speaker 01

  Hmm.

• 48:40Chris Voss?

  But secondly, this is a bad habit to bring stuff up after the deal has been cut. So I'm guessing you just didn't know any better and you were uncomfortable bringing it up.

• 48:52Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 48:52Chris Voss?

  But if you come on board first, you got to understand, we don't do this to people. And you got to learn, we work all the little stuff out before we think we have an agreement instead of going for little stuff after the agreement.

• 49:05Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 49:06Chris Voss?

  And this person was like, hey, you know, I didn't know. And my intention is to help build the company and I appreciate you let me know. And I understand where you're coming from.

• 49:17Lewis Howes?

  They were genuine about it.

• 49:18Chris Voss?

  They were very genuine. I needed to know that.

• 49:19Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 49:20Chris Voss?

  Like was, is, was she, was this person advised to do this?

• 49:24Lewis Howes?

  Mm hmm.

• 49:25Chris Voss?

  Did they do it by accident? Or did they do that because this is going to be the predictor of future behavior?

• 49:31Lewis Howes?

  Mm hmm.

• 49:32Chris Voss?

  Which now we have a real problem.

• 49:34Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 49:34Chris Voss?

  Because if this is a habit that you're born with, you are not going to last and you can't represent me.

• 49:41Lewis Howes?

  No.

• 49:41Chris Voss?

  Cause the people that work on my team are also my ambassadors.

• 49:44Lewis Howes?

  Mm hmm.

• 49:45Chris Voss?

  I got to find out what's going on it is. And I go back and we talk it through and we settle everything out. And I got a list of things to aspire to for employee benefits. Because these are great things.

• 49:59Lewis Howes?

  Sure. So to finish that up, one of the worst things you can do is ask for more and more and more and more things after the negotiation has been agreed on.

• 50:09Chris Voss?

  Right.

• 50:10Lewis Howes?

  Do that before the final agreement is what I'm hearing you say.

• 50:13Chris Voss?

  Yep.

• 50:13Lewis Howes?

  Yes. If someone's looking to.

• 50:15Chris Voss?

  Nice paraphrase by the way.

• 50:17Lewis Howes?

  You want to make sure I capture that. If someone is looking to buy, wanting to buy something, acquire something, whether they're buying a business, a car, a house, um, some potential expensive item, a jewelry, something of, of more value than a thousand dollars.

• 50:35Lewis Howes?

  And they they might be able to negotiate a lower price. You mentioned the extreme price anchoring. How that is a mistake, right? There's a house for a million dollars. I'll give you 200 grand for it.

• 50:49Chris Voss?

  Right.

• 50:49Lewis Howes?

  That's that's but you want to get a better deal.

• 50:52Chris Voss?

  Right.

• 50:52Lewis Howes?

  Maybe it's a Rolex, maybe it's a car, maybe it's a house, maybe you want to acquire business, whatever it is. Something of higher value, a ring, an engagement ring, you're gonna marry someone.

• 51:01Chris Voss?

  Right, right, right. Let them make their profit off somebody else.

• 51:04Lewis Howes?

  Yeah. What should be the lower percentage on a a higher item of value? How, what should the initial offer be? You want to get a better deal. So you don't want to pay a million dollars for a home, but you really want the home. You don't want to pay 3,000 for the diamond ring, the engagement ring, but you really want that ring.

• 51:25Chris Voss?

  Right.

• 51:26Lewis Howes?

  How low of a percentage should you go to anchor? In order for you to feel like, oh, I got a great deal and I got the thing I wanted. And they didn't get screwed over. You know what I mean?

• 51:39Chris Voss?

  Well, depending upon the context, I mean, like 30, 30% is a good rule of thumb.

• 51:43Lewis Howes?

  To start out.

• 51:44Chris Voss?

  Well, for for a target, like if you if you and and very, very context driven.

• 51:48Lewis Howes?

  Sure.

• 51:50Chris Voss?

  Like, for example, I'm in Macy's one time and um figured out this jacket. Girl I'm with really likes it. She searches this thing extensively. She finds like a thread out of place.

• 52:00Lewis Howes?

  Hmm.

• 52:01Chris Voss?

  And she goes like, watch me get 10% off on this jacket. And I'm like.

• 52:06Lewis Howes?

  It's a red.

• 52:09Chris Voss?

  I can get 30% by being nice.

• 52:11Lewis Howes?

  No way.

• 52:14Lewis Howes?

  Tell me more.

• 52:15Chris Voss?

  Well, I like in in every transaction, you know, I look at it as an there's an aggravation tax. Now, the person that you're dealing with is already built in the aggravation tax because of all the aggravating people that have come through the door ahead of them. So there's an aggravation penalty, there's an annoyance tax, there's an aggravation tax that's already there on a price. Now, if you're not aggravating, you don't need to pay the aggravation tax.

• 52:40Lewis Howes?

  Interesting.

• 52:40Chris Voss?

  Let somebody else pay that aggravation tax.

• 52:43Lewis Howes?

  And you benefit from them actually paying that that tax.

• 52:46Chris Voss?

  Yeah, let's some let's somebody else pay it.

• 52:50Chris Voss?

  If I'm not aggravating, why should I pay the aggravating tax? So, you know, this young lady, she'd gotten 10% off on a regular basis. I will be demanding.

• 53:01Chris Voss?

  Ten, ten percent is the annoyance tax when there's another twenty percent to be gained. Hmm, interesting. Like you don't, so many people don't realize how much money they're leaving on the table. Really? Like massive amounts of money.

• 53:16Chris Voss?

  On, on any given, the difference between ten percent off and thirty percent off. Right. Like they got a way to give you a better deal. Mm-hmm. If they feel like it. So how do you get them to feel like it? Well, so, yeah, great, there you go, exactly. Again, the approach, very similar to the hotel thing. You know, there's, there's, there's a strategy where we sort of bundle the skills in a black swan method. We call it the accusations audit. The accusations audit. Accusations audit. Let me do an audit of all the names you would call me.

• 53:53Chris Voss?

  If I'm gonna do this. Uh-huh, you say this? You say it to yourself. Okay, not to the- Cause I need to come up with a list. Ah. So, again, it's like, look. You get annoying people coming through here all day long, every day, want something for nothing. I'm gonna look like just, like another one of these annoying jerks. That's really demanding and would be the wrong way. And don't appreciate how hard it is for you to work in this jewelry store, this car dealership, this wherever you are. You are knocking yourself out in a tough sales job. Mm-hmm. You're trying to feed your family, people are coming here trying to take food out of your mouth. Cause how do they see it? Mm-hmm. You know, it's not about you. And it's not about, it's really not sympathy. You know, the difference between sympathy and empathy.

• 54:37Chris Voss?

  You know, I feel your pain. Right. Like I've been there too. You know, like I'm a regular guy like you. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like, don't give me that regular guy stuff.

• 54:47Chris Voss?

  So, but you, you look at people like me, who want something for nothing, who come walking in all the time. You know, you look at us as, as wanting discounts and, you know, and you're trying to feed your family. Now, suddenly, this person is like, oh, wow.

• 55:02Lewis Howes?

  They get it.

• 55:02Chris Voss?

  This is not the other annoying jerk that came in here. Now, they're starting to open up. And then, you know, you talked before about being playful. Being playful about this can be a really big deal.

• 55:13Lewis Howes?

  I've gotten so many things for free for being playful, or upgrades, or discounts, just by, let me just say a friendly joke, or just something funny.

• 55:21Chris Voss?

  Right.

• 55:22Lewis Howes?

  You know, let me just be goofy and dance in front of them and be like, what is this guy doing, you know?

• 55:26Chris Voss?

  Yeah. You've just got, you don't gotta pay the aggravation tax.

• 55:29Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 55:30Chris Voss?

  And then, plus. See, Sean says you're 31% smarter in a positive frame of mind. Not only have you put the person in a better mood, you now got them thinking about options. What can they do? What, you know, how can they help you? What can they get away with? How can they shortcut the TSA line? How can they, um, what's the code for the employee discount? Like, I, you know, in the same place where I'm trying to get this 30% or so off, and I'm joking around with this guy.

• 55:59Lewis Howes?

  Sure.

• 55:59Chris Voss?

  You know, and, and one of the things, getting to see as a human being, I'm like, well, I'm Chris. Is there a Chris discount? What kind of Chris discount is this? And they laugh at that. And so, and I'm still not getting enough of a discount. And finally, I go like, look. Give me the employee discount. And I've been joking around, and I smile when I say this. This guy goes like, if I give you the employee discount, I gotta pay for this thing myself. And I go, I'll pay it back! And I'm laughing, and he laughs. And so, he looks at the machine, and I says, wait right here. And he walks around, and I see him. And I walks up to a person, and I perceive to be the manager. And he's whispering in the manager's ear. And I see this manager standing, going like, no, no.

• 56:39Lewis Howes?

  No, really?

• 56:40Chris Voss?

  No. And he comes walking back, and another employee intercepts him, whispers in his ear, and I see his eyes light up. And he walks over, and he plugs in a discount for me. And we get the 30% off.

• 56:52Lewis Howes?

  Wow.

• 56:52Chris Voss?

  But I was joking with him. I was showing I knew what it looked like from his perspective. I'm getting myself out of this aggravation tax thing. You know, let somebody else pay the demanding, aggressive, annoying...

• 57:11Chris Voss?

  Tax. You go in there and you brighten somebody else's day up.

• 57:19Chris Voss?

  You leave the world a better place. You get some practicing. Cause you want that confidence for the big negotiation.

• 57:27Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 57:28Chris Voss?

  And all these things work for you and you are, you end up feeling better about the day yourself.

• 57:33Lewis Howes?

  Yes, you had a fun interaction and you got a discount.

• 57:36Chris Voss?

  Exactly.

• 57:39Lewis Howes?

  What are the social cues or psychological behaviors? Body language, responses that people have before you take the polygraph test to know whether or not they're actually telling the truth.

• 57:56Speaker 02

  Everybody would assume that the polygraph was the, the lie detector. Like you just ask the question, come on in, have a seat Louis, let's hook you up. Did you steal when you were a kid? You know, did you steal that gum or did you steal that? And then it just tells me everything. And it doesn't really work that way. Like typically the, the lie detector is the person. So you sit across from a person, you have a conversation. And as we're discussing something, let's say you're applying to the US Secret Service, we'll make you a recruit.

• 58:25Lewis Howes?

  Okay, give it to me.

• 58:26Speaker 02

  And so we're asking you all these questions about your education, your background, um, drugs, whatever it is. And let's say we get to, I say to you, Louis, did you ever steal anything? And so now I look at, are there any shifts, are any changes? Do you change the direction?

• 58:44Lewis Howes?

  No.

• 58:46Speaker 02

  People are usually not that obvious, you know, they're, but you can see, you can see something, you can feel it. It's also feeling people, I think that gets dismissed quite a bit. That it's not just see here, you know, it's like, it's also you can feel another human being. You can, and it's intuitive and you should, we should allow that and listen to that more rather than shut that down. But it would be, you know, if I would ask you that, I would hear the way you responded. Did you respond similarly to all the other questions the same way? Is your, you know, and let's say if I said Louis, did you ever, you know, I asked you all these other historical questions and you're like, no, no, no. And then I say Louis, did you, have you ever stolen anything? Absolutely not.

• 59:32Speaker 02

  So now, something like that, as small as that, I may mark that. I was like, okay, he said no, no, no for everything else, but here he said absolutely not.

• 59:41Lewis Howes?

  Interesting.

• 59:42Speaker 02

  Why is it a bit more emphatic?

• 59:44Lewis Howes?

  He cares more about either protecting something or that it actually isn't the truth.

• 59:48Speaker 02

  Maybe.

• 59:48Lewis Howes?

  He doesn't want that to be out.

• 59:49Speaker 02

  But I will no- notice that it's different. That you did something different, even if you, no. It could be a very subtle thing, or you might not give me anything. There are some people, and I've had those people where it's just like.

• 1:00:03Lewis Howes?

  Poker face all the way through.

• 1:00:05Speaker 02

  Some people, but they'll, I don't want to say they're professional liars, but some people, you know, would come in, especially if it was a criminal case, and they're guarding their, the truth really hard, and you have to try to figure out what that is, or some people come in and it's, I swear to God, God, God knows, I would never do such a thing.

• 1:00:25Lewis Howes?

  On my mom, on my grave.

• 1:00:26Speaker 02

  Those are usually red flags, unless it's a culture or a person who typically does it. If so, they, if they always say, I swear to God, I swear to my mom, then it would be like, look, this is part of this person's natural language, or maybe in their culture, they refer to God quite a bit. But if it's not, and then you start doing that, then again, that's a red flag. So that's what you're really looking for, rather than we have some of these cookie cutter things. It's like, everybody does this, everybody does that. Now, are these things I'm talking about indicators? They, they are, but you may do them and I may not. I may do something else.

• 1:01:04Lewis Howes?

  What do you do when you lie?

• 1:01:05Speaker 02

  Oh, I do when I lie.

• 1:01:07Lewis Howes?

  We all lie at something, right?

• 1:01:09Speaker 02

  We do, I do, I do.

• 1:01:10Lewis Howes?

  Small or big?

• 1:01:11Speaker 02

  My husband's like, did you, you know, have a donut this morning? No.

• 1:01:16Lewis Howes?

  What do you lie about the most? Professional or personal? And what in each, each category?

• 1:01:23Speaker 02

  Maybe like if I'm mad. Cause I have a, I have a pretty, I have a pretty bad temper. So it's like, oh no, I'm fine. You know, and I'll, because sometimes I'll know, I'm like, you know, I have a temper. And sometimes I know I'm being irrational. And I don't want to open up a whole conversation. So I'll just be like, no, I'm, I'm, I'm okay. I'll, I'll leave it. Cause I'll know it's me. Trying to think, what do I, I lie about? Maybe work, if it's a project I don't. Wanna do, but usually that's what you have agents and managers for, cause they do it for you.

• 1:01:53Lewis Howes?

  Sure.

• 1:01:54Speaker 02

  They shut it down for you. Um, I'm trying to think. I mean, we all lie, but I try to keep it like, usually for me, it's like, cause I'm like a, you know, I like. Donuts and I like things, cookies. I just like things. So my husband's like a health fanatic. So he'll be like, how'd you eat today? You know, I was like, oh, it was, it was okay. I was, I was pretty solid, you know? Oh, okay. So he'll know what I'm trying to say.

• 1:02:18Lewis Howes?

  Is there, is there such a thing as person being radically honest all the time?

• 1:02:23Speaker 02

  No, I don't, I've not, I've not come across that. But I think. Here's the thing, it's okay to lie because. Have you ever been very, very, very honest, maybe with? A person and then felt afterward, you know? I don't, you feel a bit exposed and you feel like, you know, I wish I didn't share this much with this person. Afterward, you kind of have that remorse. Because we feel like it's a, it's a protection mechanism. I don't want to tell you everything about me. I don't want to be an open book. And so. I may, and it may not be a lie. So by omission. So in a meeting, if somebody's pitching me a project or I'm talking, talking about something. I don't like it, or I don't like the direction it's going.

• 1:03:06Speaker 02

  I may not say, I don't like this. I may say, thank you, you know, let me think about that. Meanwhile, I want to, I want to say, no way. I'm not doing it. That's terrible. So that, that technically would be a lie. I'm like, you know what? Thank you. It let me think about that.

• 1:03:18Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 1:03:19Speaker 02

  But I know. I can't respond the first way. Shuts people down. That's why I, I feel like. We hear people say, say no, you know, being able to say no to people. More so because a lot of us have.

• 1:03:32Lewis Howes?

  To protect your time, your space, your energy.

• 1:03:34Speaker 02

  Yes. And that's wonderful. But don't say no. Find other ways to say no. No is ugly, no is mean, no is hurtful. So I can say, "Thank you so much, I'll let you know. I'm not really sure if I'm able to, let me think on that." Find alternative ways to let people down.

• 1:03:53Lewis Howes?

  Why is that?

• 1:03:54Speaker 02

  To preserve the relationship.

• 1:03:56Lewis Howes?

  Because when you say no to someone, even if it's a friend, they might take it personally.

• 1:03:59Speaker 02

  It stings. Right? Why are you saying no to me? Why do you have to say like that? You can say, you can reject people in a thoughtful way, in a professional way. It just, it depends. Like, do you care about their relationship? And if you do, your no, your hard no can hurt people's feelings. People become sensitive because you're rejecting them. And so I'm gonna think of a different way to say no that's not gonna impact you as much. It's really using language thoughtfully. So for example, you brought up lying. I love that. And you said, "You know, when I was a kid, I lied." So I would never say to you,

• 1:04:35Speaker 02

  "Louis, you're a liar." Or, "Louis, no, Louis, you're lying to me." I would say, "Louis, I know you're not being truthful with me." "Louis, you're holding something back from me." Sounds different. So it's the same way with language. We don't, we throw our words out and we don't realize that they land on someone. And so then we scratch our heads, heads, wondering, "Why did this conversation not go well? It's this person's the problem." When we don't have the ability to think about, "How did I deliver this?" So if it's a business relationship that's important to you, but you wanna say no to this, you wanna think of a great way to say no. So we wanna think about, how do we let people down without hurting their identity? Going back to identity.

• 1:05:21Lewis Howes?

  Was there ever a time when you were interviewing or interrogating someone and you didn't believe them, ever? But they were telling 100% the truth?

• 1:05:31Speaker 02

  Oh my God, you just reminded me of this case.

• 1:05:34Lewis Howes?

  You're just like, I know this person's lying to me, but at the end of the day, everything he said was pretty true or almost a hundred percent true.

• 1:05:40Speaker 02

  This was, I've never, I had, it was such a simple case and it was even, it was not even for a lot of money. It was an ATM scam. This man was going to ATMs and he was taking, stealing money. Somebody would go in, use their credit card, he'd come from behind, take money. Very simple. On the ATM.

• 1:05:58Lewis Howes?

  Like put him up with like a gun or something?

• 1:05:59Speaker 02

  No, no, no, no, just follow them in. There's these little skimmers that they put on top of the machines when you scan your card, that it would pick up your information as well and then you could go. There's all these different scams. So, but when you go to the ATM, there's a camera there. It's got your full picture. So, I have a picture of this guy, my perpetrator. It's a picture of him. I see him, his face, he's wearing a hat. He's wearing a New York Knicks hat. And I was like, here's my guy. Alright, you know, I've got it, all I gotta do is lay the picture on. So he shows up for his interview, wearing the same New York Knicks hat. So I start speaking to him, I don't take out my evidence, right? Cause I'm, I'm saving that, cause I'm, that's my, that's my.

• 1:06:41Lewis Howes?

  You knew this was a slam dunk?

• 1:06:42Speaker 02

  This is slam dunk. I was like, and he didn't even steal a lot, five hundred dollars, it was something.

• 1:06:46Lewis Howes?

  Small.

• 1:06:47Speaker 02

  I don't know how it landed in my lap, but it did. And sir, you took the money. No, no miss, I swear to God, I would never do that. Sir, we have this. So I'm doing this with him for like fifteen minutes. And this was a mistake on my part.

• 1:07:00Lewis Howes?

  We have evidence, we have proof, we have.

• 1:07:01Speaker 02

  You know.

• 1:07:02Lewis Howes?

  Video footage of you.

• 1:07:03Speaker 02

  I'm giving him everything, no, never me, never me. And I pull out, I'm, I think I'm being slick, and I pull out my photo of him. Boom, right on the table.

• 1:07:14Speaker 02

  Who's that, sir?

• 1:07:16Speaker 02

  Right, and I'm sitting there, I'm all smug, I'm like, I got this guy. And he takes it. And he looks at it, he's like.

• 1:07:24Speaker 02

  Looks like me. Yeah, he looks like me. He's not me.

• 1:07:30Speaker 02

  I was like, "What? That's you." He's like, "It looks like me. That's not me." "Same hat, New York Knicks hat."

• 1:07:38Lewis Howes?

  You're wearing the hat right now.

• 1:07:40Speaker 02

  Yeah, no. And I was a creative interview and I remember it was for money. It was not for a lot of money. In fact, when it came to financial crimes, crimes that had to do with money, it was actually harder to get people to confess to those.

• 1:07:55Lewis Howes?

  Why?

• 1:07:55Speaker 02

  Less guilt.

• 1:07:57Lewis Howes?

  Less guilt. They didn't hurt someone physically.

• 1:07:59Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 1:08:00Lewis Howes?

  They might have hurt them financially.

• 1:08:02Speaker 02

  Yes. I'm at home, I'm sitting behind my computer, I'm in my fuzzy slippers.

• 1:08:06Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 1:08:06Speaker 02

  Or even if I'm doing it at the ATM, I'm not stealing from you, I'm stealing from the bank.

• 1:08:11Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 1:08:12Speaker 02

  But it's different when I walk by you and actually put my hand in your pocket. It's different when I go into your home and I assault you.

• 1:08:19Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 1:08:20Speaker 02

  So there's, there's that level of guilt. But when it's money, and especially if you steal it from an institution,

• 1:08:26Lewis Howes?

  Yeah, who cares?

• 1:08:26Speaker 02

  Zero guilt. Those were the hardest to get. But yeah, that was my guy. I will never forget it. That's why I started laughing.

• 1:08:32Lewis Howes?

  Was it him or was it not him?

• 1:08:32Speaker 02

  It was him. We arrested him anyway, because we had the proof. But it's always great to get, it's always helpful to have a confession, because it really just kind of seals everything. You've got the evidence, you've got this, the person said it.

• 1:08:46Lewis Howes?

  But he never agreed to it?

• 1:08:47Speaker 02

  No, no, no.

• 1:08:47Lewis Howes?

  He said, "Looks like me, but it's not me."

• 1:08:49Speaker 02

  No, same New York Knicks hat. "Yeah, I don't know, I guess he's from New York. Who doesn't like the Knicks? He just, nothing." And you could see his face. "Looks like me." I got nothing from him.

• 1:08:59Lewis Howes?

  Really?

• 1:08:59Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:08:59Lewis Howes?

  So he never actually told the truth, but it was in fact him?

• 1:09:03Speaker 02

  It was him. I mean, we had evidence, we had prints and all that stuff. But yeah, no, he, you know, to the end, "No, not me."

• 1:09:09Lewis Howes?

  Could you tell, like?

• 1:09:11Speaker 02

  I couldn't tell.

• 1:09:11Lewis Howes?

  You couldn't tell he was lying or not?

• 1:09:13Speaker 02

  I couldn't tell. No, he was so believable. Um, but I knew going in that he was my guy.

• 1:09:18Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 1:09:19Speaker 02

  So that's why I was like, "I know it's him," but it was just like, shh, stoic. And there's a moment, I'm like, "Isn't that him?" Right? They're so good. You're like, "Am I seeing this right?" Turn the photo on, I'm like, "No, no, it's him, it's him, it's him. No, no, this is you." So some people are that good. Some people are that good. They will, some people, and I think this is, look, this was also somebody who committed a lot of crimes. And...

• 1:09:43Lewis Howes?

  He was used to it. He knew how to get out of it.

• 1:09:45Speaker 02

  So certain people who are... Who lie a lot usually become better at it. Or they, or they don't feel bad. It becomes, become better at masking it. You obviously have a great conscience and so it bothered you and so all your tells were shown. You couldn't conceal it.

• 1:10:02Lewis Howes?

  Yeah, it's like your heart is pumping, like your chest is tight, your throat is clenching, you're like, ah.

• 1:10:08Speaker 02

  It bothered you.

• 1:10:08Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 1:10:09Speaker 02

  Which is a healthy thing. It's actually a healthy thing when it bothers you. We tend to see in people who are, who have sociopathic tendencies or antisocial tendencies. Those people don't tend to be bothered. And so they can lie and can be quite calm about it. Uh, because they don't feel that guilt. The majority of people will feel guilt, so the majority of people will feel the way you feel. Because you know it's wrong, you feel it. Whereas those individuals with those tendencies, they don't care.

• 1:10:43Lewis Howes?

  What about, um, a situation that you lied your way through, where someone believed you? Is there a situation like that in the last three to five years where you lied about something you're not proud of maybe, or?

• 1:10:58Speaker 02

  Oh, sure.

• 1:10:59Lewis Howes?

  That people believed you and more than just, oh, I'm having a good day, lie?

• 1:11:06Speaker 02

  You know what I did? I could probably confess to this, this was so long ago. I went and got, it was back in the day, I got a money order from, um.

• 1:11:14Lewis Howes?

  Western Union?

• 1:11:15Speaker 02

  The post office.

• 1:11:16Lewis Howes?

  Post office.

• 1:11:17Speaker 02

  And, you know, I was like young, I was a kid, I wasn't making a lot of money, I was in college. And so I asked for a money order for like $3.99. I pay, I get it. And then as I'm leaving, I see $4.99 and I'm like, oh.

• 1:11:30Lewis Howes?

  Hundred bucks?

• 1:11:30Speaker 02

  Hundred bucks. And I took it. And to this day, I remember it, it bothered me.

• 1:11:35Lewis Howes?

  Really?

• 1:11:35Speaker 02

  Yeah. It bothered me.

• 1:11:37Lewis Howes?

  Did it bother that you didn't tell the truth right then and say, hey, you guys gave me the money?

• 1:11:41Speaker 02

  No, I took the money.

• 1:11:42Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 1:11:42Speaker 02

  I took the money.

• 1:11:43Lewis Howes?

  Did it bother you that you lied about it?

• 1:11:44Speaker 02

  It's not your limitations, I think I'm okay. I'm fine. I took the money. It bothered me afterward because I knew it was, um, I knew it was wrong. I will tell you this one story, we went.

• 1:11:55Lewis Howes?

  Did that come up in the Secret Service interview? Did you ever steal something like money when you were younger?

• 1:11:59Speaker 02

  You know what I did lie about and did come up in my Secret Service interview? I'll tell you that. I, when I applied for the job, when I went to.

• 1:12:10Speaker 02

  Um, when I went to college, my parents, and I love my family. They weren't very supportive. They weren't very supportive of my decisions. My dad was a bit difficult. Like, they didn't really want me to go. And so when you apply for college, you need their paperwork, their tax paperwork. I needed aid. They couldn't afford it.

• 1:12:25Lewis Howes?

  Right, right.

• 1:12:26Speaker 02

  And so my dad was so upset with me, he wouldn't give me his tax paperwork.

• 1:12:31Lewis Howes?

  To go to college?

• 1:12:32Speaker 02

  Yeah. They didn't agree with my decisions because I was going to private school that um, they could not afford. And I was like, I'll figure it out on my own. But either way, and so I lied. When I went to the school, I said, I can't get this tax paperwork. You know, the main person was there is like, well, you think you can't get aid? And so I went back to the school later on and I said, I'm not living at home. I'm alone. Can I get aid? I can't get access to this tax paperwork. And then I got aid. So I flat out, I, yup, I lied. And I spilled the beans in my polygraph. I was like.

• 1:13:07Lewis Howes?

  You told them this is what happened.

• 1:13:09Speaker 02

  I said, I lied to get financial aid.

• 1:13:12Lewis Howes?

  Oh.

• 1:13:12Speaker 02

  I could, because I couldn't qualify for aid. And so I was like, you know, they didn't care that. I was like, look, my dad, my mom, they won't give me their tax paperwork. They're so upset with me. They don't agree with my decision to go to this school, to do this. And they're like, no, unless you don't have your parents in your life. And I was just like, ding! I was like, I'm going to college.

• 1:13:31Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 1:13:32Speaker 02

  And I lied, but in my polygraph, I was like, I have to tell you something. Actually, I said it before they hooked me up. And I said, look, I did, I lied about this. I did this, you know, like, why did you do it? I was like, I wanted to go to college. I couldn't get money to go to school. So I was okay. I got the job.

• 1:13:46Lewis Howes?

  Wow. How many things did you tell, did you confess to before you took the polygraph?

• 1:13:51Speaker 02

  That was my biggest thing.

• 1:13:52Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 1:13:53Speaker 02

  That was my thing. Drugs, like, I didn't, I never had, despite growing up in New York, I never had any issues. I. I always stayed away from it, I think, because I saw so much around it, of that around me. And the more people kind of put it in my face, the more I was kind of like, I'm not doing that. But probably it would have been the opposite. If nobody did it, I'd be the one to be like, oh, I'm gonna try this.

• 1:14:16Speaker 02

  I think that was the biggest thing. It weighed the heaviest with me because I was like, I did this bad thing. I lied on my financial aid paperwork to get aid. I'm hoping the statute of limitations is expired on that as well. I paid back all my loans. I paid back all my loans.

• 1:14:32Lewis Howes?

  When you're, when you're in an interrogation or an interview, or you're on a first date, or you're at a job interview in your career, or any type of first interview with any situation, what's the best way to build command, authority, and credibility?

• 1:14:51Speaker 02

  Yeah. So you can do very simple things, like when you greet someone, hi, how are you? Come on in. Why don't you use the bathroom before we get started? So I'm not asking you, would you like to use the bathroom? I'm telling you, why don't you go use the bathroom? Why don't you have something to drink? What can I bring you? Right? So I'm, I'm in this subtle way. I'm telling you to go to the bathroom and you're gonna go. Because of the way I said, why don't you go to the bathroom? No, no, go before we get started. You just said authority. Why don't you have something to drink? Oh, no, I'm good. No, have something to drink.

• 1:15:24Lewis Howes?

  We're gonna be here for a little bit.

• 1:15:27Speaker 02

  So now I'm, I'm planting these little seeds telling you I'm in control. I'm not telling you, but I'm doing it subtly. Have a seat there. You know, you can show me where to sit. Or on the flip side, you could also practice something called autonomy, where you let somebody choose their own seat. And that's a different tactic. So there's two tactics.

• 1:15:49Lewis Howes?

  Where would you like to sit?

• 1:15:50Speaker 02

  Where would you like to sit? So you may use that on me if you want to talk about a topic that I don't want to talk about. And so autonomy makes me feel like I have a choice. You let me choose where I'm gonna sit because you're gonna let me have it later. You're gonna try to push me on something later.

• 1:16:07Lewis Howes?

  I gave you something now, the law of reciprocity means you give me something later.

• 1:16:10Speaker 02

  Exactly. But also autonomy, though, it's not, it's actually also not reciprocity. It's actually more of I feel in control. Because we don't like to feel like we're not in control. So if you want to talk about something where I'm really uncomfortable, I don't feel like I'm in control. I will give you control elsewhere. So I will give you control in picking where you want to meet. I will give you control in what time. I will give you control in where you want to sit. Little things like that you can do where that person has autonomy to choose. We can do it, we can do it here. We can talk about this or we can talk about this. Which would you prefer?

• 1:16:49Lewis Howes?

  I hope you enjoyed today's episode and it inspired you on your journey towards greatness. Make sure to check out the show notes in the description for a full rundown of today's episode with all the important links. And if you want weekly exclusive bonus episodes with me personally, as well as ad free listening, then make sure to subscribe to our Greatness Plus channel exclusively on Apple Podcasts. Share this with a friend on social media and leave us a review on Apple Podcasts as well. Let me know what you enjoyed about this episode in that review. I really love hearing feedback from you and it helps us figure out how we can support and serve you moving forward. And I want to remind you, if no one has told you lately that you are loved, you are worthy and you matter.

• 1:17:33Lewis Howes?

  And now it's time to go out there and do something great.