Dungeons, Dragons, and Demonic Delu-lu w/ Sarah Marshall

Laci welcomes back journalist, writer, and podcaster Sarah Marshall (You’re Wrong About, The Devil You Know). They unpack one of the wildest hoaxes of the Satanic Panic era— the claim that Dungeons & Dragons was a literal gateway to hell. CON-gregation, stay blessed — not possessed! Also, catch Laci's TV Show Scam Goddess, now on Freeform and Hulu! Keep the scams coming and snitch on your friends by emailing us at [email protected]. CW: @43:24 Mention of Unliving. Follow on Instagram: Scam Goddess Pod: @scamgoddesspod Laci Mosley: @divalaci Sarah Marshall’s You’re Wrong About Pod : @yourewrongaboutpod Research by Kathryn Doyle SOURCES https://medium.com/belover/in-the-1980s-a-woman-spread-a-hoax-that-dungeons-dragons-is-satanic-cb8da5614132 https://app.podscribe.com/episode/140508838?transcriptVersionReqId=46eb5796-f194-4b89-80a5-c951cbe7b00f https://gametree.me/blog/how-many-people-can-play-dnd/ https://www.reddit.com/r/boardgames/comments/qvnhcp/dd_veterans_of_the_80s_and_90s_what_reaction_did/ https://reason.com/2018/04/07/the-radical-freedom-of-dungeon/ http://www.believermag.com/issues/200609/?read=article_lafarge /http://www.wired.com/gaming/virtualworlds/news/2008/03/ff_gygax?currentPage=all https://www.saturdayeveningpost.com/2019/09/disappearances-dragons-the-james-dallas-egbert-iii-story/ https://www.kismetrose.com/antirpg/PullingObituary091997.html https://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-26328105

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

  Cash flow crunch? OnDeck's small business line of credit gives your business immediate access to funds, up to $200,000, right when you need it. Cover seasonal dips, manage payroll, restock inventory, or tackle unexpected expenses without missing a beat. With flexible draws, transparent pricing, and control over repayment, get funded quickly and confidently. Apply today at ondeck.com. Funds could be available as soon as tomorrow. Depending on certain loan attributes, your business loan may be issued by OnDeck or Celtic Bank. OnDeck does not lend in North Dakota. All loans and amounts subject to lender approval.

• 0:30Speaker 01

  Hey folks, it's Matt Altmaix. And Joel Larsgaard from the How To Money Podcast. If you travel for work like I do, you know that every trip is an opportunity to get more from the miles that you are already earning. Whether you are heading to your next client meeting or catching a flight home, those miles can go a long way. And for a limited time, new Delta SkyMiles Business Card members can earn 200,000 bonus miles, the highest miles offered this year, with a Delta SkyMiles Reserve Business American Express Card. Apply today at delta.com/podcast. Offer ends November 4th. Minimum spending requirements and terms apply.

• 1:05Speaker 02

  Making plans with asthma can be awful. It always goes from, "That sounds fun," to, "In this weather, what if my asthma acts up?" I got tired of saying no, so my doctor suggested Dupixent. I'm Rachel, and I'm sponsored by Regeneron in Santa Fe to share my story with real patients like me.

• 1:19Speaker 03

  Dupixent, Dupilumab, is an add-on prescription maintenance treatment for adults and children six years and up with moderate to severe eosinophilic or oral steroid-dependent asthma that's not controlled with current asthma medicines. Dupixent is not for sudden breathing problems.

• 1:31Speaker 02

  Dupixent helps people breathe better in as little as two weeks. And now, I don't even think twice about saying yes to plans more, rain or shine.

• 1:38Speaker 03

  Severe allergic reactions, including skin reactions, can occur. Get help right away for face, mouth, tongue, or throat swelling, wheezing, or trouble breathing. Tell your doctor right away of signs of inflamed blood vessels like rash, chest pain, worsening shortness of breath, brown or dark-colored urine, tingling or numbness in limbs. Tell your doctor of new or worsening skin symptoms, joint aches and pain, or a parasitic infection. Don't change or stop other treatments without talking to your doctor.

• 1:58Speaker 02

  Do more with less asthma. Ask your asthma specialist about Dupixent by name. Visit dupixent.com or call 1-844-DUPIXENT.

• 2:05Speaker 04

  Your Saturday's packed, and overthinking skincare isn't on the agenda. Simple can still be effective, because going overboard with active ingredients can weaken the skin's moisture barrier. New Aqua4 Hydrating Daily Lotion is gentle enough for all skin types, including sensitive skin. It's lightweight and fast absorbing on skin. Even though your Saturday is packed, your skin's moisture barrier is supported. Grab Aquaphor Hydrating Daily Lotion at your nearest retailer. There's before, and then there's Aquaphor.

• 2:55Laci Mosley?

  What's poppin', congregation? It's your girl, Lacey Mosley, AKA Scam Goddess, back for the podcast all about robbery, fraud, and those who practice it. Yes, it is a comedy show. Just like to remind you guys sometimes, because y'all be seeing me on TV doing true crime, and then when I'm the unserious lady, y'all get a little mad. Y'all get in those comments and do those Apple reviews. If you want to do some activism today, give a black woman five stars. And then you can feel good about yourself. Talk about it at dinner parties. So today, I'm super what? Yes, excited, thrilled, elated to have one of the most fantastic guests that we've ever had on the show back again. She's a journalist, a writer, a podcaster, and she's the host of, I know y'all know this

• 3:38Laci Mosley?

  podcast, you're wrong about, a podcast where she reconsiders an event, person, or phenomenon that's been miscast in the public imagination. Oh, I've learned so many things. And most recently, she just dropped an eight-part series where she dives in and explores the tangled web of the satanic panic, taking you everywhere from Victoria, B.C. to rural Kentucky on the podcast, The Devil You Know with Sarah Marshall. That's the podcast, The Devil You Know. Congregation, please welcome back this genius gal, Sarah Marshall, to the show. Hi, Sarah.

• 4:14Speaker 06

  Hi, I'm so happy to be here. I also have a little cold, so I'm gonna be making some unholy sounds over here. And it's just me, it's not demons.

• 4:23Laci Mosley?

  It's not demons? I feel like that's what they say before, it's demons. It's like, it's not demons.

• 4:28Speaker 06

  I mean, sometimes when you do one of these shows, you know, you bring something back from the other side.

• 4:35Laci Mosley?

  Yeah, they might be pulling up on you.

• 4:37Speaker 06

  Not, not really in this case.

• 4:38Laci Mosley?

  No, no, no.

• 4:39Speaker 06

  If you see something behind me that looks like one of those stop motion guys from Ghost, that's the demons.

• 4:44Laci Mosley?

  I am gonna pay attention because you were talking about their story and they might wanna have comments. They might have rebuttals. But I'm also a little tired too because I'm shooting right now in Ireland. This is the last week here, y'all. I'm about to be back in the ghetto, AKA America. But, you know.

• 5:04Speaker 06

  We're still going on without you as best we can. It's not great, though.

• 5:07Laci Mosley?

  Oh, goodness gracious. It's so, we so down bad. The government is scamming us so hard on every angle in front. That was the one thing I didn't realize about Ireland was like, I got to take off two stressors. People being racist to me and the stress of being an American floated off my back. And I was like, oh, but yeah, I'm coming back. I'm coming back to the hood. But Sarah, we always ask on this show, what is your relationship with scams? Do you love them? Do you hate them? Is there any particular scam right now that you're really interested in? It could literally be anything.

• 5:39Speaker 06

  Well, first of all, thank you for coming back to this scary country. And B, I forget what I've said in the past, but I would say right now, I'm, I love, I love a harmless scam. And I feel like scams are called scams often by the people who, who write the laws. And so what qualifies as a scam is very different based on who's in charge. But I think this is like not, I don't think this counts as a scam. But I was watching something recently about Lawn Chair Larry. You know, the guy who I think in, in the early eighties, somewhere in the eighties, connected a bunch of weather balloons to a lawn chair and then flew up into airspace.

• 6:21Speaker 06

  I don't think that's a scam exactly, but I think that the, well, speaking of problems in flight traffic control.

• 6:27Laci Mosley?

  Oh, Lord, geez.

• 6:28Speaker 06

  That's, you know, someone using some simple technology to end up in a place that they weren't supposed to be. I don't know. It's well, and then let me make a clumsy satanic panic connection, if I may, which is that one of the really compelling things about the satanic panic is that these were, you know, we had a lot of cases with basically no actual evidence, certainly no physical evidence, but that many of which still made it to trial and some of which made it, you know, to ruining actual lives via either, you know, securing a conviction or just, you know, you can end up stuck in the legal process in a way that even if you're acquitted later, it's still pretty much ruined your life.

• 7:07Laci Mosley?

  It's always gonna mark you. And if you had to go to prison while you waited or jail while you waited, you know, like that whole situation is gonna traumatize you. Like, you're not gonna come out the same. Our jails aren't about rehabilitation. They, it's slavery.

• 7:19Speaker 06

  Right. Yeah. You're gonna make some nice picnic tables for the people of the rest areas and at best. And I guess I'm gonna, I'm gonna try and maybe say this at the start and then see at the end if you buy it, that the satanic panic is one of the greatest scams in American legal history because it involved basically exploiting the weaknesses in our legal system, among other things, by just kind of throwing the idea of the devil around. And a lot of those weaknesses, we haven't really attempted to patch up since they were revealed by these cases. And so I think, you know, the satanic panic is, is not one

• 8:00Speaker 06

  of the fun scams of history, but it is, I do think it is one and was one even for people who, who believed it. Cause then there's a question of certainly if you're in an MLM, are you both a scammer and a scammy? And does that work with conspiracy theories too, where you're kind of selling a story at a certain point? So yeah, those are the muddled thoughts of this lady.

• 8:21Laci Mosley?

  And I mean, satanic panic being a scam definitely registers with me. And the way the scam works so well is because there's such great branding. Because if we were called like the devil, like the word devil is just chef's kiss. Mwah. It's just scary. It's like, because if we called him like the boogeyman or Mr. Fire Monster, we, he wouldn't be as serious to us. But the devil, that just sounds-

• 8:43Speaker 06

  Even Krampus. Yeah.

• 8:45Laci Mosley?

  Yeah. Crap is, crap is don't hit. Crap is don't hit like that.

• 8:48Speaker 06

  No. Well, and also, it's like, and I, I don't believe in the devil at all. Like, I was raised very secularly. And so I kind of, I'm like, I would believe in God way before I would believe in the devil. And so I guess it's always felt very academic to me. But as a, as a concept, like if it's, if you give me a devil's food cake, or a horror movie with devil in the title, or just-

• 9:11Laci Mosley?

  Devil dag.

• 9:12Speaker 06

  Yeah, a devil dag. That's so much better than a regular hard boiled egg. It is just good branding.

• 9:17Laci Mosley?

  It's extremely good branding. And I, I do agree with you. I don't believe in the devil. I do hold some belief in God because I'm a betting man. And what's har- what's the harm in believing? Now, the Bible, that book that the man wrote, the book that the man wrote, I'm a little skeptical. But, but you know, like, why not believe in a higher power? And if I get up there, you know, I was with Krishna, I was with God, I was with, you know, or if you want to call him Allah, I'm do Allah. Like, I'm just trying to be in the club, you know? So, I'm doing whatever. And if it's not, then what harm was it? Because I didn't use it to harm people, which is what America loves to do.

• 9:56Speaker 06

  Right. We see everything as like, how can this be made into a weapon? We'll figure it out. Just give us a minute.

• 10:02Laci Mosley?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. We'll figure it out. Chewing gum? No, no, no, no. Give me enough of it. I can choke somebody to death. Like, what are we doing?

• 10:08Speaker 06

  Yeah, Lady MacGyver or something here. Yeah.

• 10:10Laci Mosley?

  I mean, I think one of the bigger scams, and I try not to get too political on this podcast, but at the time that we're recording this, like, the government shutdown is about to end. And one of the biggest scams to me is that Democrats, like, old corporate Democrats who have, who's, like, big corporations have their hands in their pockets, just like they have them in Republican pockets. We're seeing them sell us out and try to sell us hope and change. And it's like, baby, we out here, we see these prices, we watching these videos of ICE wreaking havoc, and they were paid during the government shutdown because they're essential. Also, why can't they wear gator masks? Like, can we be for real? If you gonna be a trash, let me see your whole face, Mr. Trash Man.

• 10:50Speaker 06

  Right.

• 10:51Laci Mosley?

  It's a scam. I'm tired of being, getting lip service from the people that I voted for. And I really just think, and this might get me put on a list, but this is what I'm saying. I'm not saying we use it. But I'm just saying, like, what if we wheeled in a few guillotines? Just in front of like Congress and the White House? Just for display to be like, remember, you work for the people.

• 11:15Speaker 06

  I love this as an art piece, too. What if, what if just a nice museum, very close to all these government buildings, just has a big exhibit called The Lost Art of the Guillotine?

• 11:28Laci Mosley?

  Yeah, it's purely artistic. Now, there is a guy who comes and sharpens it on Thursdays, but it is chest there as a history piece.

• 11:38Speaker 06

  So guess as you're voting, maybe you can hear him sharpening his blade. And you're like, maybe we don't cut that one. I mean, speaking of fear of scams, right? This idea of like, well, what if, what if we give a free lunch to a kid who doesn't really need it? It's like, well, I'm OK with that.

• 11:54Laci Mosley?

  I'm fine with that.

• 11:55Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 11:56Laci Mosley?

  You think about how much we spend in the military. You think about how much we give away to other countries who are like, we have vested interests in. And it's like, I'm tired of America telling me that we don't have McDonald's money. We definitely have healthcare money. And they're like, no, we broke, we broke, we broke. I'm like, I thought that we, what do you mean?

• 12:15Speaker 06

  Right, America's like your white collar dad who goes out, like, spends all his money on Ponzi schemes and then calls you extravagant for wanting, you know, something off the, something not on the dollar menu. And it's like, if you hadn't been getting scammed all day, you might just be able to buy the full price nuggets.

• 12:32Laci Mosley?

  And I just want people to remember that it's our money. Like, it's your money at the end of the day, girl. Like, the government is supposed to be here to just like, make infrastructure, help like organize the money so we have the healthcare and the food and the support that the community needs. And everybody, oh, I hate that scam of just aspirational billionaires who are in a social class that will never be able to climb up out of it. And it hurts me, but I don't want to get too deep into that because I will cry.

• 12:59Speaker 06

  If we start crying, we'll never stop. And then it'll become, you know, a whole bronte kind of a thing. We gotta get a soldier on.

• 13:05Laci Mosley?

  Exactly. And so we are gonna soldier on. And today, the historic hoodwink ties into Sarah's most current podcast. This spotlights the satanic panic over the game of Dungeons and Dragons. Which is funny to me, it's Dungeons and Dragons. I don't know why I took that S off, because normally I add a S because I'm black, but...

• 13:25Speaker 06

  I like it. You're doing, that's your royalty-free version, just one dungeon.

• 13:29Laci Mosley?

  Right. So they don't sue us. Don't sue us, Mr. Dungeon. I feel like nerds who play, yeah, I'm gonna call y'all nerds. I'm a nerd too, okay? I, if you know my lore, you know I'm a nerd. But nerds being something that was labeled satanic to me is very funny. Because these guys are literally doing make them ups.

• 13:49Speaker 06

  They cannot catch a break.

• 13:51Laci Mosley?

  Right. Like, leave them alone. First they corny, and now they the devil. And I think Dungeons and Dragons is cool. I just think it's a little too elaborate for me to learn. But I do support everybody who does it. I love the show on Dropout TV with Lou Wilson, where they do it, you know what I mean? So, as a part of a decade-long mass hysteria of satanic panic, one famous 1980s hoax claims that the game Dungeons and Dragons was an actual portal to hell and could curse the players.

• 14:18Speaker 06

  Which sounds so much cooler than what it is.

• 14:24Laci Mosley?

  Honestly, I kinda wanna play portal to hell. I don't know why. I feel like that's my flight back to America. That's portal to hell for me.

• 14:32Speaker 06

  Don't throw the dice. It's gonna, there's no good options. The only winning move is not to play.

• 14:38Laci Mosley?

  Well, my producer just said, "Leave them fantastical improv nerds alone." And I agree. I agree. They are fantastical. And they all do improv. I've done improv with everybody on that show.

• 14:47Speaker 06

  Yeah, that makes sense, doesn't it?

• 14:49Laci Mosley?

  Sweetie, because they have imagination.

• 14:52Speaker 06

  Right. The most dangerous thing you can have, apparently.

• 14:55Laci Mosley?

  Truly. That, hope, education. Yeah, you, you the devil. Throw it in the river. Like, mhm.

• 15:05Speaker 00

  Cash flow crunch? OnDeck's small business line of credit gives your business immediate access to funds, up to $200,000, right when you need it. Cover seasonal dips, manage payroll, restock inventory, or tackle unexpected expenses without missing a beat. With flexible draws, transparent pricing, and control over repayment, get funded quickly and confidently. Apply today at ondeck.com. Funds could be available as soon as tomorrow. Depending on certain loan attributes, your business loan may be issued by OnDeck or Celtic Bank. OnDeck does not lend in North Dakota. All loans and amounts subject to lender approval.

• 15:36Speaker 07

  Hi, I'm Jenna Ushkowitz. You might know me from Glee. This is At the Table, the food allergy podcast, a show about food, connection, and what it really looks like to live with food allergies. Each episode, we hear stories from real people like Daniel.

• 15:51Speaker 08

  People would always think I was lactose intolerant, so I just kind of shortened my explanation to I'm deathly allergic, in a big way that defined a lot of my childhood.

• 16:02Speaker 07

  And while there are challenges, there are moments that remind you you're not alone.

• 16:07Speaker 09

  One of the best guys that I dated, he made a point to memorize all my food allergies.

• 16:13Speaker 07

  So join us and hear their stories and more, because living with food allergies isn't just about what you can't eat, it's about still having your seat at the table. Brought to you by Genentech and Novartis. Listen to At the Table, the food allergy podcast, on America's number one podcast network, iHeart. Follow At the Table and start listening on the free iHeart radio app today.

• 16:33Speaker 10

  Some days, it's the little things you look forward to most. And with Pepperidge Farm's thoughtfully crafted cookies, there's always something worth savoring. Maybe it's a Milano, made with premium chocolate between two delicate biscuits. A Sausalito, baked with rich milk chocolate chunks and macadamia nuts. Or the simple buttery goodness of a chestman. So pour the coffee, find a comfy chair, and take a moment to treat yourself to a cookie. Or two. Pepperidge Farm, have a little taste.

• 17:06Laci Mosley?

  And so from the Salem witch trials, oh my gosh. And we're right to throwing them in the river. From the Salem witch trials to today, Americans have always been ready to blame anything and everything on the devil. I like Bizzy.

• 17:22Speaker 06

  That is a good one.

• 17:23Laci Mosley?

  I feel like that's what his homies call him. That's his mama nickname, Bizzy.

• 17:26Speaker 06

  Yeah, aww. That's pretty cute.

• 17:29Laci Mosley?

  Bizzy sounds endearing, that's too.

• 17:30Speaker 06

  Yeah, cuz he couldn't say it when he was little. So that's what they call him.

• 17:34Laci Mosley?

  Exactly. So we love throwing his name out there, right? Especially if it lets us target women or people we just don't like for whatever reason. And I know you can talk, with Titanic Panic and your podcast, your series, I know that that that seems to be like a theme.

• 17:49Speaker 06

  For sure, yeah. Unfortunately.

• 17:52Laci Mosley?

  So if you're an unmarried woman in Massachusetts in the 1600s, ooh, sounds like devil stuff to me. Why you didn't want a man, happy lady who probably would live longer?

• 18:04Speaker 06

  I also, when you make soup, do you ever make soup and just think like, this is a whole witch thing right here? Like, I've got a cauldron.

• 18:10Laci Mosley?

  Cauldron.

• 18:11Speaker 06

  I've got a broom maybe somewhere nearby, like, this is the whole thing.

• 18:14Laci Mosley?

  Yeah, that's the only way I make my soup is with the broom in between my legs.

• 18:19Laci Mosley?

  It make it taste better.

• 18:20Speaker 06

  Well, it takes a while. Yeah.

• 18:21Laci Mosley?

  It does, you gotta entertain yourself.

• 18:23Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 18:23Laci Mosley?

  And I mean, like, look, if you don't want any more kids, because you know, kids aren't the easiest thing for women to have. You don't lose teeth or nipples or...

• 18:33Speaker 06

  No, you don't nearly or definitely die.

• 18:35Laci Mosley?

  Yeah. You'll definitely nearly die, especially in this time period. You definitely, like, it's the whole reason we have birthdays is because we were excited that the kids stayed alive.

• 18:44Speaker 06

  God, yeah. This is also maybe a very millennial thing, but I remember, it's, well, it's also kind of Dungeons and Dragons appropriate. I remember watching, um, god, whatever the last Star Wars prequel was, was that Revenge of the Sith? Cuz that came out when I was like a junior in high school and that they had spoilers for Revenge of the Sith. And that they... They but you know, well, I guess spoilers for whatever. It's like established in the first.

• 19:09Laci Mosley?

  Yeah, no, it's not a spoiler. It's.

• 19:11Speaker 06

  But but Natalie Portman dies. And at the time, I was like, what hack screenwriting is this? That someone with like, the amazing Star Wars technology of a galaxy far, far away that we have like, maternal mortality is an issue in this place. And now I'm like, well, shit, I thought that maybe we were more done with this than we are. I think I grew up thinking that dying in childbirth was like a very pioneer times thing to do.

• 19:39Laci Mosley?

  Right.

• 19:39Speaker 06

  No, we're dropping like flies right now.

• 19:41Laci Mosley?

  No, we're still definitely, especially black women, that mortality rate is super high. So shout out to y'all. Shout out to the doulas. Shout out to the good doctors. But because, yeah, like, it's just so funny to me that some of the things that we enjoy as children are, or not enjoy as children, but are like indoctrinated into our society are surrounded around things that were actually horrific at the time. Like, I'm so glad I was born in this time period. I mean, it could be better. I would rather be born in the future. But I will say, like, cedar trees can kill me. So my ass wasn't making it in the 1600s. If they have no albuterol or no steroid shots, your girl was dead.

• 20:17Speaker 06

  Yeah. Which is very humbling. And I'm just near sighted enough that I would have tumbled into a ravine. So.

• 20:24Laci Mosley?

  Yeah, we will both have embarrassing deaths. So I'm glad that we're not there because like, if they at my funeral and they're like, how she died? A tree killed her. Like.

• 20:32Speaker 06

  Yeah. Whereas now we get to have maybe the embarrassing deaths of today, like getting hit by a drone at a baseball game or something.

• 20:39Laci Mosley?

  You know what? I hate that that sentence has never been said before, but makes so much sense.

• 20:45Laci Mosley?

  It seems likely. I didn't blink an eye.

• 20:48Speaker 11

  Did you ladies hear about the lady that passed away on Haunted Mansion at Disneyland in October?

• 20:54Speaker 06

  Okay, it's very, maybe I make sure that my first thought is like, oh, she's so lucky. She gets to, her ghost gets to live with all the Haunted Mansion ghosts. I'm a child.

• 21:04Speaker 11

  That's what they say. There's 999 friendly ghosts, but there's always room for one more. Just thought you guys would get a kick from that.

• 21:11Speaker 06

  I love that.

• 21:11Laci Mosley?

  I love that.

• 21:12Speaker 06

  I also love the story that like, one of the imagineers who worked on it, I think they used her face as like, the crystal ball. And at the end, it's her voice saying, hurry back. And there was like a. Disney Imagineers documentary about how her daughter like goes on the ride to hear her now passed mom saying hurry back.

• 21:33Laci Mosley?

  That's really sweet.

• 21:35Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 21:36Laci Mosley?

  That's the kind of like commercialism that I'm like.

• 21:39Speaker 06

  Exactly.

• 21:40Laci Mosley?

  I love it.

• 21:40Speaker 06

  It's like be evil, but be sixties Disney evil, where you give the people a really, really, really great attraction to distract them from your evil.

• 21:49Laci Mosley?

  Yes, they used to evil like less. They didn't evil as hard. I don't know why.

• 21:53Speaker 06

  Right.

• 21:54Laci Mosley?

  Really like.

• 21:54Speaker 06

  It was like a side thing.

• 21:55Laci Mosley?

  Yeah, it was like we evil on the weekends. And now it's like we evil full time, every day, all day.

• 22:02Speaker 06

  Well, it's cheaper. Evil is actually the most profitable business aside from cosmetics. So, yeah.

• 22:07Laci Mosley?

  It's also the best way to extend your life. I've said this a billion times on this podcast. Y'all know when I get around 50, I'mma turn evil so I can live longer. I'mma sleep better. Empathy really fucks up your sleep. It ups your cortisol because you're stressed out because you care about people. I can't be doing that shit at 50. I'm doing all the good stuff I can right now for the community and for, for the country and for my friends and family. And then at 50, evil time.

• 22:30Speaker 06

  Yep. Blow out the candles, full Dexter. That's what you gotta do.

• 22:33Laci Mosley?

  Yes. Not even Dexter because I'm not trying to get bad people. I'm getting all y'all. Okay?

• 22:40Laci Mosley?

  Good, bad. Don't, don't bring a baby around me. They getting punched.

• 22:44Speaker 06

  I'm gonna set a Google calendar reminder.

• 22:46Laci Mosley?

  Yes.

• 22:46Speaker 06

  Because this says.

• 22:47Laci Mosley?

  July 4th, I don't know what year.

• 22:48Speaker 06

  Help Lacey or get out of her way. Yeah.

• 22:51Laci Mosley?

  Yes. So to the Puritans, men and women were equal in the eyes of God, but not in the eyes of the devil. The devil preferred, who do you think the devil preferred out of men and women?

• 23:04Speaker 06

  Oh, my God. I just know he must like women because we're corrupt and we like shiny things.

• 23:09Laci Mosley?

  Mm-hmm. Now, the men acted like the devil. They're like, no, no, no, it's y'all. You, the devil in the blue dress about a lady. You know what I mean? It's like, you're a husky. You're, you're a temptress.

• 23:20Speaker 06

  It's like, remember that time you had made me eat that apple? It's like, remember that time you just ate an apple without asking any follow-up questions about what I was feeding you? Seems like a men problem.

• 23:31Laci Mosley?

  But you know, we have to blame the women. There has to be somebody at fault and it cannot be them. So the point is that we in the US are uniquely susceptible to seeing Lucifer around every corner, probably because.

• 23:44Laci Mosley?

  Lucifer's in our government. Like, trying to act like it's a boogeyman. I'm like, no, I see the guy right now. It's Lindsey Graham. Like, what are we talking about?

• 23:52Speaker 06

  He's the boringest devil.

• 23:53Laci Mosley?

  Shout out to his scam where when he gets asked hard questions, he's now just falling. I think that's hilarious.

• 24:03Laci Mosley?

  Honestly, gonna incorporate it in my life.

• 24:06Speaker 06

  It's very classic eighth grade girl, you know, presentation, I didn't prepare for kind of a thing. Because now he's got another 24 hours. He can turn this thing around.

• 24:14Laci Mosley?

  Maybe I was inspired by him because I did fake faint in the Berlin airport. Maybe I got it from Lindsey Graham.

• 24:20Laci Mosley?

  You know? So we're making our way.

• 24:23Speaker 06

  I guess no, you fainted better.

• 24:23Laci Mosley?

  Yeah. I did, I did, I did. I didn't wave when I got up either. That was strange. But, like, we don't care if you're all right. Everybody's probably like, yes.

• 24:33Speaker 06

  It's like, don't worry, everybody. I'm gonna live a long, fulfilling life.

• 24:37Laci Mosley?

  Because he's evil. And he looks like a turtle and he got the lifespan of a turtle to match. Like, it's over. So your new podcast series, The Devil You Know, it dives deep into all these like satanic panic things of the 80s and how the fear of the devil was weaponized. And worshippers really popped off in America. Like, they really loved this. Suddenly, there were like self-appointed experts on Satanism, on cults, on satanic cults, even on ritual abuse, popping up on your TV and on the news. Obviously, the television is like pumping out this fear. They could tell you how to find evidence of Satanism in daily life or at a crime scene.

• 25:19Laci Mosley?

  And they turned around and trained more experts. So part of the scam that's marking me right now is that once this fear is being drummed up, right? Then you have people coming in as experts. And I feel like if you're in any job where you had to have COVID advisors, if you're not a COVID advisor during the height of COVID with somebody who was on your job to make sure that everybody was following the safety procedures, this was never a job before COVID.

• 25:45Speaker 06

  Right.

• 25:45Laci Mosley?

  So people just took like a little online course and they just came in and started doing bullshit. Like, and this was, it feels like with satanic panic, like, oh, I'm an expert now. How are you an expert? This wasn't a thing. You just popped up and now you're an expert?

• 25:59Speaker 06

  You know what I would compare it to also is the kind of like wellness scams of today, right? Where like if someone is like, I'm a registered dietitian. You're like, oh, that's like a real job with school and a governing body. And if someone, you know, especially on social media is like, I'm a nutritionist. It's like, well, that could mean anything. That's kind of, you know, more of a term that just means I, maybe I really have an education and maybe I like to go to Costco and fear monger about the rotisserie chicken, which is a very cruel thing to do.

• 26:31Laci Mosley?

  Right. Maybe I just know off the top of my head, an apple is 70 calories. Like,

• 26:36Speaker 06

  Right. Or maybe I'm just vibing and telling people things to avoid perfectly reasonable things.

• 26:42Laci Mosley?

  And it's always when they call us up an expert or specialist or like just certain things that I'm like, who gave you that title?

• 26:50Speaker 06

  Right. Cause I mean, I've, you know, I've been coming on shows to promote the devil, you know, and I've been introduced very kindly by people sometimes as a say panic panic expert. And I'm like, you know what? I'm not an expert. I'm just like an enthusiast. Like I've thought about it a lot and I find it very interesting. And I've like put more time into it than anyone ever asked me to. But I think expertise is like, anyone who self appoints themselves an expert maybe is compensating for something.

• 27:19Laci Mosley?

  And I mean, you didn't self appoint yourself. And I mean, honestly, Sarah, the way that you researched, the only way that you could be more of an expert in my eyes is if you just met the devil himself and y'all had to sit down.

• 27:32Speaker 06

  I mean, the fact that he hasn't shown up yet, like if, like, I hope it's maybe somehow, some way persuasive to someone who like is holding on to fear of the devil that I could spend like about the last 15 years at this point, speaking disrespectfully of the devil. And he just doesn't care, you know? Like he has not shown up. I think he's

• 27:55Laci Mosley?

  You reach out to him for comment and he's not responding.

• 27:59Speaker 06

  Yeah, I haven't gotten any one star reviews from the devil. I think that like, if he's out there, he's really minding his business and trying to, you know, make up for any misdeeds in the past.

• 28:10Laci Mosley?

  The devil is just a scapegoat. Like, the devil made me do it, you know?

• 28:14Speaker 06

  Exactly.

• 28:14Laci Mosley?

  They really popularized the scapegoat and now everybody's like, yeah, no, the devil made him do it. He's cool. The devil made him do that and now he good again. But the devil was doing it.

• 28:23Speaker 06

  And it's like, maybe people just wanna do bad things sometimes and we can deal with what it is about them that happens like that.

• 28:31Laci Mosley?

  Why can't you be like the little kid in the video that I love and I still quote, who, when he was arrested for taking his grandma's car and going on a joyride, he was like, "We was smoking cigarettes."

• 28:44Laci Mosley?

  They were like, "Why did you do this?" And he was like, "I just wanna do hood shit with my friends." And I was like, he didn't say the devil made me do it. He was like, "I wanted to do this with my friends."

• 28:53Speaker 06

  When you're a kid, some things can seem really, really, really fun. Like how when I was like six, I somehow reached my arm up into a pad dispenser and got one out because I just thought there was candy in there and there was not. It was so boring.

• 29:06Laci Mosley?

  You're like, "What y'all got locked up in here?" And it was just...

• 29:08Speaker 06

  Yeah, I just had to know.

• 29:09Laci Mosley?

  Yeah, so, social workers and therapists were told to look for the devil in their clients' memories. And teachers, parents, and children were told that the secret satanic panic messages were hidden in heavy metal songs, comic books, and games. So, all the things that kids liked in the 80s.

• 29:28Speaker 06

  All the good stuff, yeah. And also, and not even necessarily just the kind of thing that you would maybe from the outside imagine getting identified this way. Like, Chelsea Weber Smith over on American Hysteria did some really great satanic panic coverage over the years and I think fairly early on talked about also the kind of panic around toys. And I mean, there is at least one self-proclaimed expert who was saying that Rainbow Bright was part of the satanic agenda because she was like... I don't know, promoting paganism or something. Not sure how.

• 30:03Laci Mosley?

  How is life?

• 30:04Speaker 06

  Accusing all the good stuff. I don't know, because she's wearing too many colors. She's gay.

• 30:09Laci Mosley?

  Yeah, right. Like, what were they trying to do? Also, this is a direct, like, opposition to capitalism. So I'm shocked that they were choosing brands that were so popular. It's like,

• 30:19Speaker 06

  That's a good point.

• 30:20Laci Mosley?

  I want to know, I'm listening to Satanic, because I need to know, like, who's behind this? And what was the goal? Because whenever I see some shenanigans, some nonsense, like, there's always somebody behind it. The Tea Party, the QAnon people waiting on JFK to come back. You know, there's always someone who's pulling the strings and there's a specific reason that they're doing it. And it's never something that's not nefarious. It's never something that doesn't have to do with money.

• 30:46Speaker 06

  I think in this case, it was lucrative for a lot of people. Because like, as you were saying, you know, if you were a cop who, you know, decide, goes to a training, and this would be like a weekend training, you know, at the most, and

• 30:59Laci Mosley?

  Yeah.

• 30:59Speaker 06

  Based on that, it's like, well, I'm an expert. And by the way, like, this is still a problem in terms of how loosely

• 31:07Speaker 06

  structured the system for becoming an expert witnesses. There's a great article by Pam Kaloff where she became a blood spatter expert witness. Just like, as a journalist, but just by taking, I think, just a several days long course and, you know, doing like, a very light amount of training, you know, it's, um, so there, depending on the state, depending on the area, depending on the field, there are areas of forensic science where you can technically, according to whatever governing body exists, become an expert witness without really having to learn that much at all. And then he can just, you know, get up at a trial and say, yes, the prosecution's theory is correct, or yes, the defense's theory is correct, because I'm an expert and I say so.

• 31:50Speaker 06

  And that's one of the holes, I think, that still exists in our, our legal system. But it was,

• 31:55Laci Mosley?

  It's a huge hole.

• 31:56Speaker 06

  This was also a good way to make money. Yeah.

• 31:58Laci Mosley?

  Because blood spatter patterns, like, when they're doing it, like, it's not like they can kill a living human being and see how it, like, different ways and see how the blood spatters. So it's all guessing.

• 32:08Speaker 06

  Or, you know, they really shouldn't.

• 32:10Laci Mosley?

  Yeah, no, but it's all guessing with like fake people. So it's like, mm.

• 32:15Speaker 06

  Right. And like cops kill a lot of people, but never under experimental or, you know, kind of lab circumstances. So they're not learning anything from it, really.

• 32:23Laci Mosley?

  Not in a vacuum, no.

• 32:24Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 32:25Laci Mosley?

  So according to some of these fake experts like we were just talking about, daycare workers were infiltrating preschools as part of organized satanic cults so they could gain access to children for depraved rituals. Now, daycare has always been expensive and hard.

• 32:44Laci Mosley?

  Why are they trying to get rid of Ms. Kathy? She's doing the best she can.

• 32:46Speaker 06

  Right. I mean, and I think it's, I think there was a lot of anxiety toward daycare providers at the time because there's this idea of, well, women are escaping the home and going back to work. And daycare is one of the things that's enabling them to do it. And so I think there was an undercurrent of like, this can't be right. It's facilitating women, you know, being worldly.

• 33:07Laci Mosley?

  Working.

• 33:08Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 33:08Laci Mosley?

  The women in the daycare and the women dropping the kids off in the daycare are getting independence.

• 33:13Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 33:14Laci Mosley?

  I've kind of pondered about this recently, especially with the regression that's happening in America and how they're trying to get women barefoot and pregnant again.

• 33:21Speaker 06

  Yeah, it does feel like that.

• 33:22Laci Mosley?

  By taking away reproductive rights and doing everything they can to like, you know, affirmative action, which mostly benefited white women, like all of these things to get us back in the home. And I was like, I guess it is cheaper if the woman is just at home. Like you don't have to pay for daycare. They'll cook, they'll clean, there'll be a maid and a, and a sex lady for you and all of these things. And I think they're mad that they lost that and that they can't be pieces of shit because we'll just fucking leave. And they're like, no, no, no, no, your whole financial like life needs to be dependent on me so that I can be a fuck ass bitch and you can't leave because you can't have no credit card.

• 34:02Speaker 06

  Right.

• 34:03Laci Mosley?

  They're like, remember we didn't let women have credit cards? We need to go back to that.

• 34:06Speaker 06

  Right. And it's like, remember when the divorce rate was lower because women

• 34:10Laci Mosley?

  Couldn't?

• 34:11Speaker 06

  Couldn't escape. And also it's like, why, why barefoot and pregnant? Who took her shoes away?

• 34:17Laci Mosley?

  She can't be running.

• 34:18Speaker 06

  Walk out the door?

• 34:21Laci Mosley?

  I take all her shoes when I leave for work. She can't be running nowhere. She gets shoes when I'm home.

• 34:27Speaker 06

  Oh, my God.

• 34:29Laci Mosley?

  But so that definitely feels like what you're saying, that type of manipulation. And this panic caused real harm, obviously. Innocent people were accused of abuse based on "repressed memories," in quotes, which would later be debunked by a scam largely discredited by memory researchers due to the significant risk of creating false memories, especially within the therapeutic context. So like if a therapist suggests a story to a child, it's easy to see how that could be a problem. There is no such thing as a repressed memory. It's just a story that's been suggested to you enough times that you start to believe that it's true.

• 35:07Speaker 06

  This is a really interesting part of the scam to me because I think that so much of it was based on, you know, just selling something that we would all really like to have, especially based on how things have been going. And so the idea of recovered memory therapy, which started to be used on adult women, almost entirely women in the 80s.

• 35:24Laci Mosley?

  Of course.

• 35:25Speaker 06

  Yeah, of course.

• 35:26Laci Mosley?

  That's the medical stuff they want to give to us. It's like, let's tell you lies.

• 35:30Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 35:31Laci Mosley?

  Not let's work on your body.

• 35:32Speaker 06

  Let's throw some experimental drugs at you and just see what happens. You know, why the heck not? And in this case, the idea is that, well, when something traumatic happens to you, your body, your brain specifically, puts it away in a special kind of lockbox. And then when you're old enough and ready, probably in your 30s, when you can afford therapy, which is an amazing idea and also a scary idea, right? Because I think that the way that we forget actually protects us from quite a lot. But it's also, you know, in this context, of course, where in the legal system, nobody really trusts women's memories when it comes especially to sexual assault or to child abuse. You have this promise offered by the therapeutic world of,

• 36:15Speaker 06

  actually, we now know that your memories can be retrieved with perfect documentary recall. Like you can know everything that happened to you. And one of the things that I, and that, you know, and that was untrue. But it was something that experts were telling people and telling their patients. And so if I'm told... Something by someone in a position of authority, like my first impulse is to believe them, you know, especially if they're my provider.

• 36:40Laci Mosley?

  I call it clipboard theory.

• 36:42Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 36:42Laci Mosley?

  Like, somebody has a clipboard, I'm like, I gotta listen to them, because where'd they get that little piece of wood with the clipie on it? They, they must be in charge.

• 36:50Speaker 06

  But what if you carried your own clipboard in there and you're also wearing a high-vis vest, you know, and then nobody would know what to do with like those clashing signifiers? But, but then, you know, something I find really heartbreaking about the whole thing is that there was a period where you would, as a woman, very likely, you know, depending on the therapist that you had gotten, just kind of through the luck of the draw, there was a good chance that you might go in and say, you know, I want to work on my depression, I want to work on this or that, I want to, you know, I do remember being abused in my past, and I want to work on that trauma. And your therapist would be like, well, actually, the most relevant thing to your life is the thing that you don't remember. And I know that you have stuff you don't remember, and we're gonna get it. And if you're suggestible like I am, you would stay.

• 37:35Laci Mosley?

  Um, I feel like these satanic panic expert therapists are probably just giving these women and children the plot to Rosemary's Baby, and being like, yeah, yeah, you don't remember that, but it happened to you. Like, what?

• 37:47Speaker 06

  Right. Well, and then there's the thing where you have so many people who are seeming to recall the same thing, that one of the defenses is, well, why would they all be remembering the same thing if it didn't happen? But you could also say, why are these memories so consistent and so in line with the literature and the things that you were trying to get them to say? Like, the unanimity of it. Like, if you ask a bunch of different kinds of patients from different parts of the country about non-satanic sexual abuse, they'll have different stories about different circumstances. And that, to me, supports the idea that, you know, if, if you have someone who tells you a story that you didn't basically ask them to tell you, then that's the story that I want to hear.

• 38:33Speaker 12

  Cash flow crunch? OnDeck's small business line of credit gives your business immediate access to funds, up to $200,000, right when you need it. Cover seasonal dips, manage payroll, restock inventory, or tackle unexpected expenses without missing a beat. With flexible draws, transparent pricing, and control over repayment, get funded quickly and confidently. Apply today at ondeck.com. Funds could be available as soon as tomorrow. Depending on certain loan attributes, your business loan may be issued by OnDeck or Celtic Bank. OnDeck does not lend in North Dakota. All loans and amounts subject to lender approval.

• 39:04Speaker 07

  Hi, I'm Jenna Oshkowitz. You might know me from Glee. This is At the Table, the food allergy podcast, a show about food, connection, and what it really looks like to live with food allergies. Each episode, we hear stories from real people like Daniel.

• 39:18Speaker 08

  People would always think I was lactose intolerant, so I just kind of shortened my explanation to I'm deathly allergic in a big way that defined a lot of my childhood.

• 39:29Speaker 07

  And while there are challenges, there are moments that remind you you're not alone.

• 39:34Speaker 09

  One of the best guys that I dated, he made a point to memorize all my food allergies.

• 39:40Speaker 07

  So join us and hear their stories and more, because living with food allergies isn't just about what you can't eat. It's about still having your seat at the table. Brought to you by Genentech and Novartis. Listen to At the Table, the food allergy podcast, on America's number one podcast network, iHeart. Follow At the Table and start listening on the free iHeart Radio app today.

• 40:01Speaker 10

  Some days, it's the little things you look forward to most. And with Pepperidge Farm's thoughtfully crafted cookies, there's always something worth savoring. Maybe it's a Milano, made with premium chocolate between two delicate biscuits. A Sausalito, baked with rich milk chocolate chunks and macadamia nuts. Or the simple, buttery goodness of a chestman. So pour the coffee, find a comfy chair, and take a moment to treat yourself to a cookie. Or two. Pepperidge Farm. Have a little taste.

• 40:34Laci Mosley?

  Sarah really does a great job in her podcast of breaking all of this down and all of these details and with her research. And I am unserious, so I am gonna get to some sillier victims of the satanic panic. And that's the game Dungeons and Dragons. So I'm sure you've heard of it by now, but if you haven't, D and D is a fantasy role playing game that was invented in the 70s. To play it, you and four to five of your nerdier friends roll a 20-sided die and create a tactical fantasy realm, playing characters that you've designed. So it's like Lord of the Rings, but everybody is making it up as they go along and the dungeon master or game master keeps track of where everyone is and what's happening. Games can

• 41:18Laci Mosley?

  basically last forever if you want them to, and some people do want that. They not trying to go home. And D and D has been taking over podcasting and Madison Square Garden for some reason. Most importantly, it was the basis for the 2023 Chris Pine movie where a very small Bradley Cooper had a romantic relationship with a very large Michelle Rodriguez. But 40 years ago, America's parents decided to freak out over kids pretending to be elves and drawing things on graph paper because that was scary.

• 41:51Speaker 06

  The fear of graph paper is so sad. You gotta just face it.

• 41:56Laci Mosley?

  Like, I don't think the devil been to a craft supply store. Although he might be a hobby lobby. I don't lie, so.

• 42:02Speaker 06

  Well, yeah, he's gotta get those artifacts of himself.

• 42:05Laci Mosley?

  In 1979, a college student and D and D player named James Dallas Egbert III, that's a lot of names. I feel like you up to something.

• 42:15Speaker 06

  I know. That many names, it's a struggle, yeah.

• 42:18Laci Mosley?

  Like, why did your parents keep naming you? Like, I feel like the nurse was like, and, oh, and more, more names?

• 42:23Speaker 06

  You gotta call it, yeah.

• 42:25Laci Mosley?

  We running out of room on the line. We are running out of room on the line, though.

• 42:31Laci Mosley?

  So he vanished from Michigan State University. Egbert was considered a child prodigy, talented with technology at a young age. And the 16-year-old Egbert enrolled in Michigan State University as a computer science major. He was a fan of science fiction and fantasy and was also possibly struggling to come to terms with his sexuality, which is relatable. So when Egbert disappeared, his parents hired a private investigator and the P I offered some interesting theories to the media. Who ran with it? Sensational stories in the news described him as a boy genius who supposedly disappeared and died in the steam tunnels under his university while role-playing a real-life version of Dungeons and Dragons.

• 43:13Laci Mosley?

  Now, what kind of P I do you have that's just making up shit? I thought you were supposed to come with pictures. You're supposed to have a long lens, do a stakeout and eat bad food in the car. What do you mean?

• 43:26Speaker 06

  He was having some fun. I remember, I think I listened to the audiobook of this private investigator's memoir at the start of the pandemic. And there's this like dramatic section where he's going into the steam tunnels. It's all very exciting. And it's like, I guess he wanted a detective ideally who disregards the truth and makes up like a fun thing for himself to do for his book.

• 43:48Laci Mosley?

  How you gonna be a detective if you just doing bits? Bro, they asked you to like actually locate this person and then you were like acting like a psychic like, well, I think.

• 43:57Speaker 06

  Yeah, it is very Sylvia Brown behavior.

• 44:01Laci Mosley?

  Right, be serious, sir. We paid you to find our son. You're like, well, I think, hold on, y'all sit down, sit down for this. What?

• 44:09Speaker 06

  I gotta go have a little adventure. I gotta go poke around and endanger myself. Yeah.

• 44:14Laci Mosley?

  But to his credit, the P I did eventually find Egbert alive and in New Orleans, having run away from academic and parental pressures. But at that point, the D and D angle had already gone from myth to fact and it was too late. At least in this situation, he ran away and was found. And it's not like he staged his own kidnapping because I will never get over that black lady that we actually looked for. And she staged that over a man.

• 44:41Speaker 06

  Was that the woman who said that she saw a toddler on the side of the freeway? Yeah, I love that story.

• 44:47Laci Mosley?

  And I'm beefing with her. I have a whole stand-up joke about it because I was upset like, girl, you gotta move to Mexico and pretend you miss it forever. Don't talk to your family. You're embarrassing us. Like, we were looking for you. You're the first black. I love that she counted on the racism, though. She was like, they don't ever look for black girls. I can definitely do this stunt and nobody will know.

• 45:05Speaker 06

  They're gonna have an excuse to not look now. Yeah. I guess love that she was like, there's, there's a toddler on the side of the highway. And it's like, yeah, it's very reasonable that not a single other car would have noticed that. She did. She maybe got too creative.

• 45:20Laci Mosley?

  Too creative. I mean, she did leave her wig there, which I thought was a nice touch. She did leave her phone, but I'm like, you should have like, at least pricked your finger and put some blood somewhere. So we could really get into the lore. But I don't want to talk about how I could have improved it for her. But, but, but yeah, at least he just ran away.

• 45:38Speaker 06

  But look at Sherry Popini, you know, she did a real shoddy job and nobody figured it out for like years, you know?

• 45:43Laci Mosley?

  That's true.

• 45:44Speaker 06

  Still a double standard. Anyway.

• 45:48Laci Mosley?

  So Egbert's personal story was quite sad, but the fake story about his D and D disappearance boosted the popularity of the game, which had been a cult phenomenon up until that point. And now it started to get mainstream attention. I love that everyone was like, oh, the, the devil's in this game. And they're like, the devil? Wait, where can we buy it?

• 46:07Speaker 06

  I mean, would we still be selling wiggy boards if horror movies hadn't been relying on them for like 50 years? I don't know. It's pretty boring if you're not scared.

• 46:18Laci Mosley?

  You're right, because it's everybody in the group just pulling the board to spell things they want to spell. We know what's going on, but it does give you that occult vibe because of the movies. It's the same way that we were all shocked that the Louvre got, the Louvre got robbed because we were like, no, you gotta go through lasers. And you gotta be Ocean's Eleven and George Clute. And then it turns out they got 75% like cameras and shoddy security and they're underpaid and overworked. And actually, you could just walk up in that bitch with a chainsaw and get what you want. Like, the propaganda works.

• 46:50Speaker 06

  It's all about confidence. It does make sense to me that Casino would have better security than one of the greatest museums in the world. Because it just fits.

• 46:58Laci Mosley?

  Yeah, because they're just hoping that everybody's gonna come there and act right. The Casino is for shady people. Like, there's some people who just go to have fun. People who frequent casinos, they're always in some mess.

• 47:08Speaker 06

  So we should have mobsters in charge of the Louvre, obviously. Yeah.

• 47:12Laci Mosley?

  People in the Louvre just want to make TikToks and take photos of that one tiny picture. So Tom Hanks is gonna get involved.

• 47:20Speaker 06

  Yes. Oh, I love the Tom Hanks cameo.

• 47:23Laci Mosley?

  So while Rosemary's Baby in 1968 and The Exorcist in 1973 brought Satan into the limelight and gave him his moment on the big screen, an equally important film captured the specific fear of Dungeons and Dragons in 1982. Sarah, you're smiling. You know what this film is?

• 47:42Speaker 06

  Yes, it's called Mazes and Monsters.

• 47:45Laci Mosley?

  Ding ding ding ding ding.

• 47:46Speaker 06

  And it's pretty fun.

• 47:50Laci Mosley?

  So it's inspired by Edgar's disappearance and it's written about three days. Mazes and Monsters involves a group of college students who take their role playing game to the nearby caverns. One player is suffering from mental illness and begins to believe that he's his character. The book was adapted into a CBS Movie of the Week starring Tom Hanks in his first dramatic leading role. Okay, well, Satanic Panic, maybe I'm kinda happy with you now because you gave us Tom Hanks and then hilariously gave us Chet Hanks, Waguon, my Jamaican king. I don't know, I'm back on the side of Satanic Panic.

• 48:26Speaker 06

  Right. It's hard to, it's hard to know. Yeah.

• 48:29Laci Mosley?

  We needed Tom.

• 48:30Speaker 06

  And it's nice to see Tom Hanks just like acting his head off in this thing, you know, he really is selling it.

• 48:36Laci Mosley?

  Oh, let's look at this, let's look at a clip of the film right here. We'll put this on the Instagram. Let's see Tom acting his head off.

• 48:45Speaker 13

  Going to join the great hall. You can't. It's a trap.

• 48:50Speaker 13

  I have spells. I'm going to fly. You don't have enough points. I am the maze controller.

• 48:58Laci Mosley?

  Tom was eating whoever that other actor.

• 49:00Speaker 06

  I love that Robbie Benson looking kid.

• 49:02Laci Mosley?

  You can't, you can't fly. I have other spells. I am the maze controller. I don't know what happened to that guy, but.

• 49:08Speaker 06

  I appreciate that approach, you know, because you can't be like, it's, it's not real. It's an illusion. You have to be like, you don't have enough points in the game, you silly goose.

• 49:17Laci Mosley?

  No, I do, but I just feel like the delivery was like, I mean, we got Tom Hanks up against you. Like, Tom was eating him up, but.

• 49:23Speaker 06

  Yes, exactly. The acting is, you know, this is also one of those TV movies of the time where they're like, we're definitely not Canadian, eh? And they are, and that's just fun.

• 49:33Laci Mosley?

  That's what it's giving, and I love that scam. And right, we're cooking with gas now because we got a whole movie about how Dungeons and Dragons is definitely like the devil's k-hole. And in terms of fear mongering, a woman pulls up. And her name is Patricia Pulling, and she is gonna light a match. So, constant warning here, there is a mention of suicide, and we will put that in the footnotes as well. Patricia's teenage son Irving committed suicide in 1982. That's really hard to go through, and it's a type of grief that almost no one else can understand. And shout out to Regina King for being such an icon going through that with her son. I don't know why that made me think of that, but I just love Regina King.

• 50:17Laci Mosley?

  But in Patricia's case, she really aimed her heartbreak at one scapegoat source that never wavered for the rest of her life. This is where she channeled all of her energy. And you can probably guess what it is. Dungeons and Dragons.

• 50:31Speaker 06

  Yeah. I mean, it is easier than the gun lobby, I guess, to take on.

• 50:36Laci Mosley?

  Yeah, which, the gun lobby is very strong.

• 50:39Speaker 06

  It's one of the, I think one of the weaknesses in American life is that we want to let our policy be written by people who are actively grieving, and that's not really good for anybody.

• 50:50Laci Mosley?

  Yeah, but they're the only people at the time that have leverage because that's the visibility. And that's why I hate the influencer culture of our society. It's like, but, so here we have her saying that her son is a big fan of D and D, and instead of considering Irving's struggle to fit in at school, his, or his easy access to her husband's handgun, like you said, at home, Pat decided to blame the game Dungeons and Dragons.

• 51:17Speaker 14

  We went into the kitchen, and there on the table were what we thought were just regular composition books with schoolwork in it, and much of the Dungeons and Dragons material, along with this curse he had received in the game that day that he died.

• 51:34Laci Mosley?

  So she thought, because somebody told him to draw four, that's why... He left us? Like, make it make sense.

• 51:42Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 51:42Laci Mosley?

  But at the same time, I understand she's grieving. I understand this is a devastating loss for a mother especially. I mean, parents especially, so I, I empathize with her. But I want to know who got in her ear and was like, no, no, no, it was definitely because of the Dungeons and Dragons. So she filed a wrongful death lawsuit, which I'm sure you know, against her son's high school principal, holding him responsible for what she claimed was a D and D curse placed upon her son's character shortly before his death. She also sued the D and D game publishers. Now, baby, suing D and D game publishers, that makes sense to me because they probably got some coin. The high school principal, what did you think you were gonna get out of that?

• 52:19Speaker 06

  I did not know that she sued the principal. That's wild. Yeah.

• 52:22Laci Mosley?

  And so after all her lawsuits were dismissed, Patricia founded the advocacy group Bothered About Dungeons and Dragon, AKA BAD, B-A-D-D. I was about to say, why would you call it bothered about?

• 52:36Speaker 06

  Right.

• 52:37Laci Mosley?

  But she just wanted bad to be delayed.

• 52:39Speaker 06

  Don't you wonder if like Mothers Against Drunk Driving was calling her and was like, hey, it seems like you're taking our acronym kind of?

• 52:47Laci Mosley?

  Yeah. She was like, no, I'm bad. Y'all mad?

• 52:51Laci Mosley?

  It's different. It's different. So her advocacy materials said that the game used demonology, that's a new word, witchcraft, voodoo, and other intense things like murder, sexual assault, blasphemy, suicide, assassination, insanity, sex perversion, homosexuality, prostitution, satanic type rituals, gambling, barbarism, cannibalism, sadism, desecration, demon summoning, necromancy, divination, and other teachings. Um, she threw in every bad word you could.

• 53:23Speaker 06

  Yeah, if only the kids were necromancing.

• 53:25Laci Mosley?

  Yeah, for sure necromancing. Uh, uh, wait, what, what else? Stabbing, punching babies? Uh, what else can I say that's bad? Um, kicking ducks.

• 53:34Speaker 06

  Not cutting up their soda rings. Yeah.

• 53:36Laci Mosley?

  Not, definitely not cutting up their soda rings. That's a part of the game.

• 53:39Speaker 06

  They're getting far too much sodium. Yeah.

• 53:42Laci Mosley?

  Yes. They're like, Willie ain't getting free. He getting killed by soda rings from Dungeons and Dragons. What? She threw in every buzzword. Conservative Christian media outlets repeated this information without fact checking it because why would they do that?

• 53:56Speaker 06

  Because that's not their thing.

• 53:57Laci Mosley?

  Nobody fact checked the Bible. Why would they? They're like, that's not what we do.

• 54:01Speaker 06

  Yeah, there's some weird stuff in there.

• 54:02Laci Mosley?

  Yeah, but they're like, no, no, no, it's all good. So Patricia even obtained a private investigator's license for herself. She became a consultant to law enforcement and was an expert witness in several gaming-related lawsuits, all of which also lost in court. Because what is y'all talking about? And why? What lawyer is letting you? She must have been raising funds because I'm like, aren't you going broke paying for all these fake sham trials?

• 54:26Speaker 06

  Well, and also I feel like if you become an expert in Dungeons and Dragons, you would have to play it at least once and then realize that.

• 54:33Laci Mosley?

  It's not bad.

• 54:34Speaker 06

  And look, I love Dungeons and Dragons. I support the right of anyone who wants to play it. But also, it is so boring. Like so much time passes before anything happens. And I feel like the point of it really is to be with your friends and to have a thing that you do and to have a campaign that goes on for maybe years or decades. But it feels like, like if you were to play it, you would be like, oh, this is like, not the portal to hell that I always promised. This is, we're still definitely just sitting around someone's dining room table right now.

• 55:05Laci Mosley?

  Right, and if it is the portal to hell, it's the scenic route. Like, wow, it's taking us a while. I thought portals were quick. We've been here for three hours.

• 55:14Speaker 06

  We've been playing for eight years. We haven't gotten to the holy water, but we have hopes, yeah.

• 55:20Laci Mosley?

  And I mean, even though she was wrong, you have to admire her persistence. And I feel like that's just like grief, like love is persevering. And so she was trying to do this for her son. And I obviously got hyped up by a bunch of other lunatics. But in her case, I really think like she was really trying to do something for her son. At least that's what I hope. I don't know the lady.

• 55:40Speaker 06

  Well, and I think that a lot of, yeah, people who are on their own grief journey, like we can't. We can't expect them to tell us all what to fear. You know, they're figuring it out for themselves and so to use someone that way. It just feels very opportunistic.

• 55:55Laci Mosley?

  Extremely, extremely. So she kept going, baby. She co-authored the book, The Devil's Web. Who is stalking your children for Satan? Honestly, not gonna lie, great title. If I saw it in the airport, I'm picking that shit up, okay? I got a six hour flight. Oh, I could, I could knock that book out. She was known nationally as an expert on the occult. Again, with the expert title. Where did she get it? We don't know. And so she testified in a capital murder, like, excuse me. Multiple capital murder. I can't even get it out because it's so ridiculous. Multiple capital murder trials. And appeared on TV, including, well, this is not shocking to me. The Oprah Winfrey Show.

• 56:40Laci Mosley?

  We've seen how many grifters were platformed and legitimized on Oprah Winfrey's show. Not the odds, who just told us that all of America is gonna lose 393 pounds because of his health initiative. So I don't know where my bones are gonna be because I don't got that many. But, okay. She platformed Yana Van Zant, which is my favorite one, a therapist. I'm putting heavy air quotes, who like makes people sing their rap lyrics to pictures of Harriet Tubman. Honestly, cynical.

• 57:12Laci Mosley?

  Dr. Phil, who just yells at people to try to help them, but he's not trying to help them at all. Like, I won't forget ever in my life, the episode where he had somebody on who was addicted to crack cocaine. And he was like, just stop doing crack. And I'm like, I don't know if that's gonna heal them, sir. But you are very unserious. So of course Oprah Winfrey had this lady out because this is what Oprah Winfrey Show did.

• 57:33Speaker 06

  Yeah. And you know, five shows a week. You gotta, you gotta pack them with guests.

• 57:37Laci Mosley?

  Yeah, you're right. At that point Oprah was like, look, I'm trying to be discerning, but we gotta get these ratings.

• 57:43Speaker 06

  Yeah. Well, I also, I feel like Oprah kind of. Like, I don't know what, like, in the late 90s, early 2000s, she kinda underwent this makeover of like, being more about kind of vague spirituality and positivity and favorite things. And that was the Oprah I grew up with. And so there's this interesting thing where you see what she was on. It's like seeing your mom in the 80s where you're like, oh, you were having a lot of alleged Satanists on before you got into all the Steinbeck and everything.

• 58:10Laci Mosley?

  And I mean, that's why white women love Oprah so much. And I'm not gonna lie, it's not just white women. My mom loves Oprah. My mom has been, was at the Oprah show several times. There used to be an Oprah room in our house, which included a cardboard cutout that she got from a local bookstore, because they were about to get rid of it, of Oprah. And she had a poster of Oprah framed, and it just said, "Read," and it was Oprah with a book open.

• 58:35Speaker 06

  Just follow, her eyeballs follow you around the room, commanding you to read.

• 58:39Laci Mosley?

  Literally. We called it the Oprah room. It was a guest room, and there was just Oprah stuff in there. So, I mean, and I have mixed feelings about Oprah, but she still is iconic and always will be. So, the mom of Edgar was also on Geraldo, 60 Minutes, and Larry King Live to talk about teens involved in satanic worship. Larry King's been on TV, he is, like, as soon as they made TV, he was like, "Let me get on that bitch." Y'all, y'all figured it out, plug it in, I'm gonna get on there.

• 59:10Speaker 06

  He walked over from the radio side or something.

• 59:12Laci Mosley?

  Literally. Like, is he alive?

• 59:16Speaker 06

  I think he died a few years ago, but it was like, he, he seemed to be 80 for my entire life.

• 59:21Laci Mosley?

  Yeah, he's like Morgan Freeman to me. Like, I've never seen him young.

• 59:24Speaker 06

  But I'm saying that now, and I'm like, is he dead? I don't know.

• 59:26Laci Mosley?

  I don't know. It doesn't feel like-

• 59:28Speaker 06

  He'll always be with us.

• 59:29Laci Mosley?

  I feel like he'll always be with us. Shout out to Larry King. So, we're back to Edgar's mom. She also spoke on more than 200 radio shows and was the subject of local and national news articles. In one print interview with the Richmond News Leader, Patricia said, in her expert opinion, that about 8% of the population of Richmond were probably Satanists. I don't know where she pulled 8 from, probably out of her ass. But also, at this point, I realized that she's probably getting delulu. Because think about it, you're on Oprah, you're on Geraldo. You're on Larry King. You have all these national articles. Now all this stuff is starting to come to you. Like it's getting to your head and you're like, I want to keep this fame and popularity up. So I really got to just start saying anything.

• 1:00:07Speaker 06

  Eight percent of Richmond is like, to be clear, that's like thousands and thousands of people who are supposed to be closeted Satanists. Yeah, I do feel like there would be this, this phenomenon where like, if it becomes your job to say kind of outrageous things, then you would be getting all this positive reinforcement for doing that and it would maybe escalate.

• 1:00:29Laci Mosley?

  I feel like she should have gone a little higher with the fake number though. I'm thinking like 23%.

• 1:00:35Speaker 06

  What percentage?

• 1:00:35Laci Mosley?

  You know, it's not quite 25. It's not a fourth, but.

• 1:00:39Speaker 06

  Right. It sounds unreal than if it were 25.

• 1:00:41Laci Mosley?

  Cause eight, I'm like, I'm not stoking no fears with that. Or maybe not even using that way of math, maybe like one in every six.

• 1:00:49Speaker 06

  Yeah. Yeah. Also, nobody cares about Richmond. She needed to pick a, you know, she said Dallas, people would have.

• 1:00:55Laci Mosley?

  Yeah.

• 1:00:56Speaker 06

  People would have freaked out.

• 1:00:57Laci Mosley?

  Dallas. Yeah. She had to go very religious, but also large city. Yeah. Florida, Florida, everybody in Florida will believe anything. So Florida would have been great.

• 1:01:09Speaker 06

  I mean, as somebody said today.

• 1:01:11Laci Mosley?

  Not everybody, y'all.

• 1:01:11Speaker 06

  If someone said today that 50% of people in Portland, Oregon, where I live are Satanists, that I mean, people would believe them, but that I think they would believe them on the basis of like, well, they look at tarot and they, uh.

• 1:01:23Laci Mosley?

  Yeah.

• 1:01:24Speaker 06

  I don't know. They have crystals.

• 1:01:26Laci Mosley?

  They have the most strip clubs per capita.

• 1:01:27Speaker 06

  We have the most strip clubs per capita. So there goes Satan. And it's like, well, that's a very loosely defined Satanism that. What are, what are we talking really?

• 1:01:35Laci Mosley?

  Yeah, but there's women and Satan loves to use them and they're at the booty club.

• 1:01:38Speaker 06

  There are a lot of hot girls in Portland. Yeah. Clearly satanic.

• 1:01:42Laci Mosley?

  Devilish. Yes. I love Portland. Uh, but yes, so by 1991, people start to calm down, kinda. The American Association of Suicology, the US Centers for Disease Control and Health and Welfare Canada, all concluded that there was no causal link between fantasy gaming and suicide and that we all needed to cool off. So she rode this wave.

• 1:02:07Speaker 06

  But what if we stop funding these agencies and then they can stop telling us that we're freaking out for no reason? And then we can keep freaking out for no reason. That's apparently what we're doing now.

• 1:02:16Laci Mosley?

  You know, everybody's doing their own research these days, which is. Fun.

• 1:02:21Speaker 06

  Oh, my god.

• 1:02:21Laci Mosley?

  Y'all ain't wanna do research papers when you were required to do them in school. You tell me you really doing your own research?

• 1:02:26Speaker 06

  Right. I love nothing more than doing research, but it doesn't count if you refuse to listen to half of the available information because you're afraid you'll learn something.

• 1:02:35Laci Mosley?

  Right. I'm like, I know MLA format, hate to see you coming, cuz you.

• 1:02:41Laci Mosley?

  Y'all, y'all.

• 1:02:42Speaker 06

  Oh, I kinda miss MLA format.

• 1:02:44Laci Mosley?

  Oh, I mean, these days, they don't even like write with the pencils that much anymore. I feel so old. I'm like, I'm not writing essays with pencils and then passing it to somebody so they could give you a peer review and then rewriting it.

• 1:02:57Speaker 06

  I know.

• 1:02:58Laci Mosley?

  No?

• 1:02:59Speaker 06

  You know what's great, though, is that like this boring thing that we had to do in middle school that never seemed like it was a real life skill at the time, at least to me, where they're like, alright, write a five paragraph essay in the next hour, where you'd be like, ugh, okay, I'll do it. And now the ability to do that is like having been to, I don't know, Shaolin Monk Academy or something, in terms of how far away it seems.

• 1:03:22Laci Mosley?

  Right. It's like we were all at like Harry Potter or something, and now we got all types of skills. I mean, fuck Nicki Rella, she's a turd.

• 1:03:29Speaker 06

  We had teachers who were mean to us, and we learned how to magically produce a whole page of writing.

• 1:03:35Laci Mosley?

  It's a special skill that I now covet. I mean, I've never used a protractor since, but you know, at one point in my life, a triangle hated to see me coming.

• 1:03:47Laci Mosley?

  So that brings us to the end of this episode, and I'm so glad that I had you for this because there's so much satanic panic scamming, and I know that that's something that.

• 1:03:57Speaker 06

  Always.

• 1:03:57Laci Mosley?

  I will call you an expert because I don't think you're a scammer at all. I know you maybe are gonna be cautious with that word, but I know the way that you think and I know the way that you research, so I'm gonna say expert.

• 1:04:08Speaker 06

  I will let you call me an expert.

• 1:04:10Laci Mosley?

  Thank you.

• 1:04:10Speaker 06

  Yeah, I'll be a guest expert on Scam Goddess Land and nowhere else. Yeah, and I'm so happy to get to talk to you about it today, cuz I feel like this is one. One chapter of it that is so compelling. And if people are listening.

• 1:04:25Laci Mosley?

  So much more.

• 1:04:25Speaker 06

  Yeah, if people want to read more, do that.

• 1:04:29Laci Mosley?

  The devil you know, your podcast, like, that's where you can get eight episodes of a deep dive of all of this wild stuff that was legitimately happening in the eighties. So.

• 1:04:40Speaker 06

  Yeah, and it really, and I guess keeps getting weirder. And we have also eight regular episodes and eight bonus episodes where we have kind of extended conversations with some, I will call them experts, some fabulous experts who we got to talk to, including an expert on the gaylor theorizing world, which, you know, I don't think is going anywhere. And yeah, it's been, it's been such a joy to put together and to get to just share the weirdness. And also, I think maybe what I hope people take from it is that people got scammed all the time throughout history. And if we're around, you know, and not falling for the fear, then it's our job to take care of each other because the fear does some scary things.

• 1:05:25Laci Mosley?

  That's beautiful, especially in the times that we're in. Like, that's a really beautiful sentiment. And I love to be nosy, so I can learn a bunch of stuff, but I can also carry that thread throughout my life because we're still living in those times. History just does repeat itself.

• 1:05:40Speaker 06

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:05:41Laci Mosley?

  I always ask at the end of the show, Sarah, where would you like to be found? Any socials, anything you want to plug?

• 1:05:46Speaker 06

  Thank you. Yeah, you can, so you can listen to my new show, The Devil You Know. It's out from CBC Podcasts. And you can also listen to my show, You're Wrong About. And you can find that show on Instagram at I Think You're Wrong About Pod. And also just find me in the cool breeze of a winter's day. Find me in a face in the clouds. I'm always with you.

• 1:06:11Laci Mosley?

  That was beautiful.

• 1:06:12Speaker 06

  And if you're afraid of the devil, then I will tell him to keep away from you.

• 1:06:18Laci Mosley?

  Lay off.

• 1:06:19Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 1:06:21Speaker 06

  And also, I've done a couple of episodes of the show in the past that I had such a good time doing, and I would want people to find me there, too.

• 1:06:28Laci Mosley?

  Yes. Okay, so thank you so much for coming. I really appreciate it. It's always nice to talk to you. It's been too long.

• 1:06:33Speaker 06

  It's great to talk to you, too. I know. It's been 200 years. Yeah.

• 1:06:37Laci Mosley?

  And it feels like 200 years the way the time is moving right now. But as always, y'all, if you want to see the photos and the videos that we talked about and listened to on the podcast today, you can go to Scam Goddess Pod on Instagram. Follow the page, like the page, and make your baby an Instagram account, and then also follow with that. And make your dog an Instagram account, and also follow with that. And stream it for your baby at naptime, okay? I'm greedy. And you can follow me at D I V A L A C I for all of my shenanigans. I'm wrapping up the second season of Going Dutch, so it'll be on Fox and Hulu very soon. You can watch my show, Scam Goddess, on Hulu. And yeah, you can get my book, Scam Goddess, wherever books are sold, including audiobooks. That's all

• 1:07:21Laci Mosley?

  I have to plug. But I want to say I love you guys. Thank you so much for being here, Sarah. This is a fantastic episode, as per usual. You never disappoint.

• 1:07:28Speaker 06

  Thank you so much.

• 1:07:29Laci Mosley?

  So, clack it. And congregation, I want y'all to get out there, and I want y'all to stay, mm, I want y'all to stay panicking.

• 1:07:40Laci Mosley?

  Not panic attacks, but like, right now, we do need to be in heightened alert. So, like, just panic a little bit.

• 1:07:46Speaker 06

  Cut some soda rings.

• 1:07:46Laci Mosley?

  Sometimes. Yeah, cut, yeah, I want y'all to stay cutting up soda rings. Okay? We can't let Willie go out like that. And Sheldon, the turtle, the sea turtle, okay? Think about him. All right. Bye-bye.

• 1:08:03Laci Mosley?

  Scam Goddess stars and is hosted by me, Lacey Mosley, AKA Scam Goddess. Our producer is Jessica Cisneros, and our audio engineer is Rich Garcia. Research for the show is conducted by Kate Doyle. Stay scheming.

• 1:08:19Speaker 12

  OnDeck is built to back small businesses like yours. Whether you're buying equipment, expanding your team, or bridging cash flow gaps, OnDeck's loans up to $400,000 help make it happen fast. Rated A+ by the Better Business Bureau and earning thousands of five-star TrustPilot reviews, OnDeck delivers funding you can count on. Apply in minutes at ondeck.com. Depending on certain loan attributes, your business loan may be issued by OnDeck or Celtic Bank. OnDeck does not lend in North Dakota. All loans and amounts subject to lender approval.

• 1:08:48Speaker 15

  She's been thinking about this sleepover all week, but I think about her food allergies all the time. Fortunately, her doctor prescribed Zolair, omalizumab. It's proven to significantly reduce allergic reactions if a food allergy accident happens.

• 1:09:01Speaker 16

  Zolair 150mg is a prescription medication used to treat food allergy in people one year of age and older to reduce allergic reactions due to accidental exposure to one or more foods. While taking Zolair, you should continue to avoid all foods to which you are allergic. Don't use if you are allergic to Zolair. Zolair may cause a severe, life-threatening allergic reaction called anaphylaxis. Tell your doctor if you ever had anaphylaxis. Get help right away if you have trouble breathing or if you have swelling of your throat or tongue. Zolair should not be used for the emergency treatment of allergic reactions, including anaphylaxis. Zolair is for maintenance use to reduce allergic reactions, including anaphylaxis, while avoiding food allergens. Serious side effects such as cancer, fever, muscle aches and rash, parasitic infection, or heart and circulation problems have been reported. Please see zolair.com for full prescribing information. Ask an allergist about Zolair.

• 1:09:44Speaker 16

  This is an advertisement for Zolair paid for by Genentech and Novartis.

• 1:09:49Speaker 10

  Some days, it's the little things you look forward to most. And with Pepperidge Farm's thoughtfully crafted cookies, there's always something worth savoring. Maybe it's a Milano, made with premium chocolate between two delicate biscuits. A Sausalito, baked with rich milk chocolate chunks and macadamia nuts. Or the simple, buttery goodness of a chessman. So pour the coffee, find a comfy chair, and take a moment to treat yourself to a cookie. Or two. Pepperidge Farm. Have a little taste.