The Holderness Family Gets Real About Perimenopause

In this episode of unPAUSED, Dr. Mary Claire Haver sits down with Kim and Penn Holderness, the husband and wife content creators behind the widely popular Holderness Family, bestselling authors, and winners of The Amazing Race Season 33. Together they built an audience of millions by finding the humor in real life, and in this conversation they turn that same lens on perimenopause, ADHD, marriage, and the particular chaos of midlife. Kim opens up about the perimenopausal symptoms that arrived before she had any name for them: the anxiety that made everything feel like being chased by a bear, the panic attacks triggered by nothing she could identify, and the growing sense that something was fundamentally wrong with her. She describes walking out of her doctor's office with no treatment after being told her symptoms were normal, the financial reality of having to seek out a functional medicine doctor to finally get the estrogen and progesterone support she needed, and the combination of hormonal and psychiatric care that eventually helped her feel like herself again. She also speaks with real honesty about her postpartum anxiety, perimenopause and depression, and her OCD diagnosis, and how all of it left her desperate for a voice that would simply say: this is hard. Guest links: The Holderness Family https://theholdernessfamily.com/ The Holderness Family https://www.instagram.com/theholdernessfamily/reels/ (Instagram) The Holderness Family - Music https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCl2axinLKd00nMBW6RTASag (YouTube) The Holderness Family - Comedy https://www.youtube.com/@holdernessfamilylaughs (YouTube) The Holderness Family https://www.facebook.com/TheHoldernessfamily/ (Facebook) The Holderness Family https://theholdernessfamily.substack.com/ (Substack) The Holderness Family https://theholdernessfamily.com/ (TikTok) Laugh Lines with Kim & Penn Holderness https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/laugh-lines-with-kim-penn-holderness/id1378725018 (Apple Podcasts) PC’s Playbook Podcast https://www.youtube.com/@PCsPlaybook (YouTube) Books: “ADHD Is Awesome,” https://theholdernessfamily.com/adhd-is-awesome/ by Penn and Kim Holderness “Everybody Fights,” https://theholdernessfamily.com/book/ by Penn and Kim Holderness https://thepauselife.com/blogs/the-unpaused-podcast/the-holderness-family-gets-real-about-perimenopause

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  This episode contains references to child loss and death. Some listeners may find it distressing. Please listen with care and step away if you need to.

• 0:10Speaker 01

  He is the world's most sensitive, understanding husband ever. He's like, don't need to explain it. We're good. Just go lay down and go for a walk, whatever you need to do. So everything like felt like I was being chased by a bear. And I really thought something was wrong with me. So that started before any of the physical stuff started.

• 0:28Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  Yeah.

• 0:29Speaker 01

  And I was relieved to hear that, like, oh, that that happens in perimenopause. I just thought I was going crazy.

• 0:36Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  So when did you hear that, though? Like, when did someone say, hey?

• 0:40Speaker 01

  You told me on the internet, which is like, gonna make me cry. Yeah, I mean, even the postpartum depression stuff, like, there, there weren't women talking about it. They were talking about like, how wonderful it was to have like a newborn baby. And I was like, I can't even walk downstairs without like, fear of tripping. And it was, it was so hard. And then perimenopause hit and I just thought I was going crazy. I'm like, man, I'm so sorry you married me.

• 1:15Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  The views and opinions expressed on UnPaused are those of the talent and guests alone, and are provided for informational and entertainment purposes only. No part of this podcast or any related materials are intended to be a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis, or treatment. There are some people who feel special to you even before you ever meet them in real life. I know it sounds strange, but if you've spent years laughing with them, learning from them, and seeing your own life reflected back at you in their content, well, that connection is real. And Kim and Penn Holderness are absolutely those people for me. This husband and wife content creator team have had me and pretty much all of their followers

• 1:58Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  laughing for years with their parodies, skits, and blogs that tap right into the realities of family, relationships, and life.

• 2:07Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  They are bestselling authors, award-winning podcast hosts, and they were the winners of season 33 of The Amazing Race. Through the miracle of parasocial relationships, I felt like I knew them long before we ever met. And then about a year and a half ago, we finally met in person at the South by Southwest Film Festival. Then, right after that, I promptly left my phone in an Uber, which honestly just tracks for me. Penn somehow managed to figure out how to track it down, contact the driver, and get it delivered back to me. I'm not sure I could have done that by myself. He said it was because ADHD is a superpower, because apparently, leaving your phone behind all the time comes with

• 2:47Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  a skill set in person. They were exactly who they are on camera: warm, sharp, funny, real, no performance, no polish beyond authenticity. Then, we discovered something else that made the night even more surreal. We both had books publishing on the exact same day. And for those of you who have never published a book, when two books come out on the same day in the same category, that usually means competition. The same lists, same ranking, same pressure. Kim and Penn with ADHD is awesome, and me with the new menopause. And yet, there was never even a whisper of rivalry. We cheered each other on from the very beginning. When the New York Times Bestseller List was announced, I was on vacation and intentionally

• 3:31Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  limiting my social media. But then, Kim texted me with the news. We had taken the top two spots on the list together. I honestly could not have written a better ending to a story if I even tried. I was screaming from the rooftops for all of us. Over the last few years, I've watched them navigate midlife, peri-menopause, ADHD, and marriage, and we're going to dive into all of that. So today's conversation with them feels like a long time coming. It feels personal, it feels joyful, and it feels deeply aligned with what UnPaused is all about. I'm Dr. Mary Claire Haver, a board-certified obstetrician-gynecologist and certified menopause practitioner. I'm also an adjunct professor of obstetrics and

• 4:13Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  gynecology at the University of Texas Medical Branch. Welcome to UnPaused, the podcast where we cut through the silence and talk about what it really takes for women to thrive in the second half of life.

• 4:30Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

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• 5:11Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

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• 5:43Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  Welcome to UnPaused. So excited to have you guys here, but in case anyone who is listening has been under a rock and doesn't know exactly who you guys are. I kind of went through your high points in the intro, but what is your origin story?

• 5:59Speaker 01

  We met in a bar where all normal people meet. No, we were actually television news reporters in the same market in Orlando and we worked at competing stations. And so we worked the night, so we did like 11 o'clock live shots. And then TV news business, local news, it's very incestuous. So like, we would all like collapse our, you know, live shots. And then we'd all meet out at a bar somewhere.

• 6:23Speaker 02

  On like a Tuesday.

• 6:24Speaker 01

  On a Tuesday. So I thought his name was Ben for like the two, first two weeks I knew him. And then I saw him do the worm at a nightclub and I was like,

• 6:34Speaker 02

  Pretty typical story.

• 6:35Speaker 01

  Back off ladies, that man is mine.

• 6:37Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  So was it love at first sight? Or, or this might be a mistake, but I need to do this.

• 6:41Speaker 01

  For me, it was love at first sight, but then he had a girlfriend and then I had a date, like three guys named Steve in a row. And so we, it took us a little while, but once we like decided it was, it was pretty quickly. I think we were engaged within like nine months and then married nine months after that. So it went kind of fast.

• 6:58Speaker 02

  Yeah, we started out friends, um, which I just thought would be like a smart way to get to know her better.

• 7:05Speaker 02

  I wanted to be, but she was on her tramp page that she was describing with the, with the three consecutive Steves. And so, you know, I, I was a sounding board for some of that and I was dating people too.

• 7:16Speaker 01

  This is a menopause podcast and he just said tramp page. Okay.

• 7:21Speaker 02

  The one who taught me that word.

• 7:22Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 7:22Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  I am going to have to steal that.

• 7:25Speaker 01

  So, you know, ladies, you gotta kiss a few frogs and then.

• 7:29Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  And that's okay.

• 7:31Speaker 01

  So, but once we started dating, it was very obvious that it was it. And then we, the rest is history.

• 7:36Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  So you fall in love, get married, or you still working as TV reporters at your respective station?

• 7:43Speaker 01

  I took a job as a correspondent at Inside Edition and so we moved to New York.

• 7:48Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  Oh, wow.

• 7:49Speaker 01

  And then he was working for ABC Sports, ESPN. And so we lived there. Our daughter was born in New York and then we ran out of money and space. So he took a job in North Carolina. So that's where we are today.

• 8:01Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  So when did all of the internet stuff start?

• 8:03Speaker 01

  We had two small kids and he took some convincing, but then we did it. And then we did this Christmas Jammies video, just sort of announced to our local, like our friends, our family, like, yeah, I thought that maybe like my Aunt Linda would like share it on Facebook and we'd get a few phone calls about it. It was a slow news week, which like remember those. And I think every, like the Today Show, Good Morning America, CNN, like everybody ran that video. It got 17 million views in a week. And so that sort of changed everything.

• 8:32Speaker 02

  We tried to use that video as the opportunity to, hey, let's reach out to other companies. And we can help produce and do what the amazing people in this room are doing to edit and shoot. And like, cause we really were interested in that part and the blowback kept being like, great. So when are you going to come in and you're. Christmas jammies and we're like, no, it's not what we're going to do. It was very early in the influencer years and there wasn't really like a handbook on how to do it. Most of the people who were doing it were that we talked to. It was like bloggers who really let people intimately into their lives and showed their children like all the time. And the fights they got in and those were most of the people we got exposed to. And that wasn't something that either of us were interested in.

• 9:14Speaker 02

  I mean, yes, our children were in these videos early, but we wanted to give them like agency and choice, which we didn't for the first one. We didn't realize it was going to be this big of a deal.

• 9:23Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  You're just like making a family video that went viral.

• 9:25Speaker 02

  And I'll go ahead and answer the question like, we're still worried that we're going to screw our kids up. And we probably already have.

• 9:31Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  And they'll let you know.

• 9:32Speaker 02

  But that wasn't the kind of content we wanted to put out there. So it took a while to figure it out.

• 9:38Speaker 01

  We talk very openly that we did not know what we were doing. We put our kids on the internet before they had the ability to consent. Any criticism of that from them or anybody else is very fair. We have asked our kids and it is open. I'm like, we will delete any video, the Christmas jammies, any video you want. And we're logged in, hit delete like we, and they are like, no, it can stand. I do think it's tough to be a kid in high school and have your teacher say, oh my gosh, I saw your parents' video like in front of the whole class. And that's happened a couple of times. So I think that's, that was not their favorite. So, but they also know it comes with a lot of good.

• 10:21Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  So your videos I love because for multiple reasons. And I love that you're really leaning into the menopause, perimenopause space with the videos and your experiences. They don't feel like comedy about people. They feel like comedy with people. You know, like you're not making fun of the experience. You're like actually talking about the experience in a different way. What's that been like for you guys?

• 10:44Speaker 01

  Well, I think that just in general are sort of.

• 10:50Speaker 01

  Family motto or business motto is giving people permission to laugh. So that's at the core of what we do. And also, we never punch down. And if we're going to make fun of something, it's going, we're going to make fun of ourselves. But also with the perimenopause and menopause stuff, it's hard because I don't want women to look at these characters I'm playing, maybe, or what we're doing and be like, oh, they're not capable of doing anything because they have brain fog. Because women are capable of a lot. And I don't want to weaponize menopause and make it seem so terrible.

• 11:29Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  You're not at all. It's just relatable.

• 11:31Speaker 01

  It's just, but there's like a fine line. We've deleted videos that we've edited because I'm like, God, this makes women seem like they're just incapable of handling life because menopause is so bad. And we still have to handle life.

• 11:44Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  Yeah.

• 11:45Speaker 01

  You know, so it's kind of like a, a, a needle we're threading there.

• 11:47Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  What are you seeing in the comments, like on those videos?

• 11:50Speaker 02

  For the most part is thank you for helping me feel seen and understood. And do you have a camera in our house? And then the second most common thing is my doctor bleeped this up. Like those, right? That would be number two. And, and that was like really eye opening to me because I'd heard you say it. I'd heard her say it. But then hearing it from the general population, and we didn't even mention a doctor in the video.

• 12:12Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  Yeah.

• 12:13Speaker 02

  But that's like one of the main comments. Between that and meeting all of your great friends in Austin, that was very eye opening about like a real deficit in the world when it comes to healthcare.

• 12:23Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  So on this podcast, we've had a ton of clinicians, a ton, mostly clinicians. We had two males so far. You're the third.

• 12:31Speaker 02

  Let's go.

• 12:33Speaker 02

  And I'm a doctor.

• 12:34Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  Yeah.

• 12:35Speaker 02

  That's why I have this square on my blazer.

• 12:38Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  Okay, so my, on Instagram, we all look at our demographics, right? That's our bread and butter. And on Instagram, I am 98.5% female.

• 12:46Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 12:46Speaker 01

  Okay. Okay.

• 12:47Speaker 02

  And you don't want that. You don't want an echo chamber.

• 12:49Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  No.

• 12:50Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 12:50Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  But nice because the podcast we just started. Shameless plug is 40% male.

• 12:56Speaker 02

  Oh, wow.

• 12:57Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  So we got dudes listening. So like you're talking to, you know, what about y'all? Like, what is your breakdown on your demographics?

• 13:04Speaker 02

  We're not quite 98.4. That's amazing.

• 13:06Speaker 01

  I think we are like 85% women.

• 13:08Speaker 02

  We are on, on our main platforms. YouTube, it's a little bit different. And like every platform has its own like favored gender.

• 13:15Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  Yeah.

• 13:16Speaker 02

  It's so funny though, like there's a reason why we're 85% female. Do you want to know?

• 13:22Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  Tell me.

• 13:23Speaker 02

  Okay. Well, first of all, Kim is amazing and she's the star and I'm totally okay with that. But second of all, men don't know how to do social media in general. I'm just going to be stereotypical to the 40% here. If you guys like, if men like our videos, like if my friends like our videos, they'll text me, dude, your video was really funny. Thanks. Did you?

• 13:43Speaker 01

  Did you hit that little heart button?

• 13:44Speaker 02

  Do anything else? Comment? No. I'm not going to let people know that I watch videos like, okay. So that's how we, as a business, spread and grow into the algorithm.

• 13:55Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  Yeah.

• 13:56Speaker 02

  When we made male friendly content, I'd get lots of text messages from my buddies, but it wouldn't do well because it wasn't making the algorithm because no one was commenting.

• 14:05Speaker 01

  We were on vacation with like some of our best friends. We had a video we had pre-shot and it came out that day and our friend, he goes, yeah, that's really funny. I took his phone and I hit the heart button. He goes, are people going to see that I liked that? I'm like, they are, Chris. They are. I'm like, because you liked it? He goes, I have to hit a heart button. Like it wasn't masculine enough or something?

• 14:24Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  I mean, should we have like a little brew button? Or like a, or a dude button?

• 14:28Speaker 01

  Or like a, like a, like a. Like a big like muscle, like make you feel like a big, strong man. Like a rucksack.

• 14:37Speaker 02

  But the truth is like, when it comes to our business, on the engagement side, men don't feel compelled or even comfortable sometimes doing that. We talk about all kinds of stuff. Usually it's relationships. Most of the time when men come up to us in airports and stuff, they say, even if, I think there's some of them are lying. Rather than saying, man, I love your videos. They're like, man, my wife really loves your videos. This one, this one, this one, and this one. I'm like, it sounds like you know about our videos too.

• 15:05Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  My husband is obsessed with you guys in a, in a very healthy way. He talks about videos I've never seen. I love

• 15:11Speaker 02

  Oh, there we do.

• 15:12Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  And it's like the bro videos that you do.

• 15:13Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 15:14Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  With the other guys.

• 15:14Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 15:15Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  You know, like the algorithm is serving him completely different content than me. Like the spontaneous stuff is like your bro videos.

• 15:22Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 15:22Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  That he loves.

• 15:23Speaker 01

  He has a, yeah, he has a crew of bros. He gets to hang out with online.

• 15:26Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  So when you decided to do some menopause focused content, perimenopause focused content, because you're doing your actual real lives, like, were you worried? Were you scared? Were you like worried about pushback or?

• 15:37Speaker 01

  It's interesting because we had an agent at one point. I was turning 40 and we started doing a lot of like, I'm 40 content. This was almost 10 years ago. And this agent said, you really shouldn't be telling people how old you are. Because if, if, you know, part of what we do, just to be completely transparent is like, we partner with brands and that, you know, brands are really turned off by that. So we got new agents because what am I going to do?

• 16:06Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  Bye.

• 16:07Speaker 01

  Like hide the fact that I'm aging. We did have a discussion and because it is, it is very sensitive and people get uncomfortable when women freaking age. And we just decided our channel, we focus on what's happening in our lives and we try to make it funny. What was ruling our house at the time was my perimenopause. And bless his heart, he came up with a name for her, Perry. And he's like, Perry's here, huh? Like, and so he even like wrote those sketches.

• 16:39Speaker 02

  No, I got, I wrote the first skit and I.

• 16:41Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  Was that therapy for you?

• 16:42Speaker 02

  So here's what I, it was connection to me. So it was, I'm like, honey, some of this stuff is funny. And she's like, yes, I know. I'm like, well, listen, I'm going to create this character. It's not you.

• 16:53Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  It's not you.

• 16:54Speaker 02

  It's Perry. So Perry's not you. And she's like, I love it. Let's do it. So I wrote it in very few notes from the, from the first draft. Kim is so, so, so good at poking fun of herself. She's the most self-aware woman I've ever met. I said, I think that was like, one of the things I said in our vows. Like, I mean, I knew this very early on. She is a wonderful woman who looks at herself occasionally as a hot mess and is super aware, sometimes even real time when she's. When she's acting irrationally, she'll say, yeah, I'm acting irrationally right now. And it is, it's great. And I've tried to be more about, more like that myself.

• 17:32Speaker 02

  So in these videos, like letting there be Kim that we all know, and also this other part of Kim that has to do with everything that's perimenopause.

• 17:44Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  And may or may not have been terrorizing your household.

• 17:46Speaker 01

  Right. And like, let's face it, it was Kim.

• 17:48Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 17:48Speaker 01

  Like that was Kim.

• 17:49Speaker 02

  But we, before we even put it out, we laughed at it and we felt connected. I wasn't fed up by it, but I was confused.

• 17:56Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  Yeah.

• 17:56Speaker 02

  About some things that were going on.

• 17:58Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  Yeah, well, let's talk about that because I think we have a very large audience that is not a woman, you know, listening to this podcast, which is new for what I put out there. And I know every guy out there who's, has a wife who's starting or in the middle of this is like hanging on. So now you're the subject expert. Okay. What was it like? Like you guys are in your 30s, living your best life, two kids, you're doing all this, you know, building this life together. And what, what, what was changing?

• 18:27Speaker 02

  The first things I noticed was there were moments that I think in the past she would process in real time and move on from. And I think she was just having a difficult time processing some of those things. And a lot of them weren't really even things that were going on in her body. It was empathy she was feeling for other people or for the world around her.

• 18:49Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  Cause perimenopause begins in the brain.

• 18:51Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 18:52Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  And that resilience change, that mental health, that, you know, processing change. So yeah, I love the way you put that, the way she was processing things was, was different. How did you, did you notice that? Cause you don't, when we're in it, you know, you're not observing it. You're in it.

• 19:09Speaker 01

  You have to be able to zoom out. And so it.

• 19:12Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  I couldn't for a long time.

• 19:14Speaker 01

  Well.

• 19:14Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  He was wrong.

• 19:16Speaker 01

  Well, I, I knew that for a long time, here's, here's like my emotional capacity and my, my, my cup. And I could handle everything that was being poured into this. All of a sudden, my cup felt so small. It felt like I was like, there was a fire hose being poured into like my capacity to deal with anything. I mean, I was like driving down the street shaking. I remember I was like in a Whole Foods and I was shopping and I was like grabbing the spaghetti sauce. And for whatever reason, like that tri- spaghetti sauce, right? Like marinara, like nothing. I put it down, I called Penn, I'm like, I'm coming home, I'm leaving my grocery cart in aisle three. And he's like, okay, got it. And I'm like, I don't know what's wrong with me.

• 19:57Speaker 01

  And I've had panic attacks before, but I was like, this was usually around triggered by something. This was freaking marinara. And he, he is the world's most sensitive, understanding husband ever. He's like, don't need to explain it, we're good. Just go lay down and go for a walk, whatever you need to do. So everything like felt like I was being chased by a bear. And I really thought something was wrong with me. So that started before any of the physical stuff started.

• 20:23Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  Yeah.

• 20:24Speaker 01

  And I was relieved to hear that, like, oh, that, that happens in perimenopause. I just thought I was going crazy.

• 20:31Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  So when did you hear that though? Like, when did someone say, hey?

• 20:35Speaker 01

  You told me on the internet, which is like, gonna make me cry.

• 20:41Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, even the postpartum depression stuff, like there, there weren't women talking about it. They were talking about like, how wonderful it was to have like a newborn baby. And I was like, I can't even walk down the stairs without like fear of tripping. And it was, it was so hard. And then perimenopause hit and I just thought I was going crazy. I'm like, Penn, I'm so sorry you married me. Like, and you deserved like somebody who's like happy and can handle life. And I'm so sorry. And I was like apologizing to my kids. I was like, you're, you have a mom that like can't deal. And then I went to my doctor, bless her heart. She's like, yeah, this is normal.

• 21:21Speaker 01

  And, but I walked out with nothing.

• 21:23Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  You know, normal means common, not.

• 21:25Speaker 01

  Not, you should deal with this. So because I have a husband who like, sorry.

• 21:32Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  Don't.

• 21:34Speaker 01

  I'm trying to like get them back into my eyes. My mouth scared doesn't run. Like, thank you.

• 21:39Speaker 02

  I would have given you this, but it's totally fake. I just like, I just reached for it and was like, well, shit.

• 21:47Speaker 02

  This must be a cheap blazer.

• 21:51Speaker 02

  What's the point of it? Sorry, like back to you. It's not about me.

• 21:56Speaker 01

  Well, because we, you know, have the access, I booked an appointment with like a functional.

• 22:04Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  Right, anybody, please.

• 22:06Speaker 01

  Like a, and so we could pay for that. And that pissed me off too, because I was like, our family, like, he's like, absolutely do what you need to do, pay for what you need to pay for, but not everybody can do that. And so now it's being talked about, people, people are getting it covered by insurance, but like, four or five years ago, and then she, this sweet angel of a doctor gave me progesterone. And I was like, like, I was like, I didn't feel like stabbing people all the time. There was more to it. Couple of years later, yeah, a couple of years later, I ended up, she recommended I go talk to a psychiatrist. We unpacked some stuff. I am on like a wonderful combination of medicine there. I'm loving life. Everything is great.

• 22:49Speaker 01

  But without that, I just look at women walking around this world that are being told this is normal and walking out of the doctor's office with a pat on the back.

• 22:58Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  The most likely time for a woman to commit suicide is between 45 and 55.

• 23:02Speaker 01

  That feels right. Like, that feels awful.

• 23:05Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  There's a reason.

• 23:06Speaker 01

  But I have to say, like, I was, have the happiest marriage. I have healthy kids. I have a wonderful life. And I'm like, I want out of here. Like, I can't, I can't.

• 23:18Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  I hear it. It happened to me. I hear it not to that degree. But I, I've heard this in patient, I have a good life.

• 23:26Speaker 01

  Everything's great.

• 23:26Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  I built this life. I built the life of my dreams and I'm not okay.

• 23:31Speaker 01

  Yeah. And so I'm, I'm here because of some good pharmaceuticals and a loving husband.

• 23:37Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  Sponsored by Pfizer.

• 23:38Speaker 01

  Sponsored by whoever wants to sponsor it, right? Whatever I'm taking. And I got on my journey and it got to the point where we were able to see the funny in it. And that is sort of what we do, is that we get to look around at our lives and say, like, is that funny? And when you zoom out and you're out of crisis, and I was out of crisis at that point, I'm like, it is kind of funny what we're going through here. And, and anybody my age is probably going through this in their marriage, because it becomes a family issue at that point.

• 24:18Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  So tell me your side of this.

• 24:20Speaker 02

  She did not conceal any of this, I don't believe. I think that we, I think that, I think we talked about it. Pretty openly. I think part of me was trying to help her diagnose because there's, you know, there is a lot of like questionable, like what's going on. So just medically, you'd had some pretty intense menstruations throughout most of your life to the point that you thought you might have endometriosis, where now it's endomitosis or whatever.

• 24:48Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  Adenomysis.

• 24:48Speaker 01

  I have adenomyosis.

• 24:50Speaker 02

  And so.

• 24:51Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  The endometriosis is the evil twin. Yeah.

• 24:53Speaker 02

  Right. So I had been trained with some, some moments that you even said.

• 24:58Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  Shit's going down.

• 24:59Speaker 02

  This is happening right now. This is really heavy. Like I'm feeling.

• 25:01Speaker 01

  To the point where he's like, it was Shark Week. Like.

• 25:04Speaker 02

  I know when Shark Week was, like, I get that. I will say that, like, as this is all happening,

• 25:12Speaker 02

  you know, like, as, as a man who wants to feel connected and to feel intimacy, like, that's gonna ebb when this happens. And so I felt like I could be useful and helpful, but also lonely because I can't super relate to what she's doing. And I've got to give her more space than I'd like to. I think that's like stuff that it's all past and gotten a lot easier. And I've learned that like intimacy means something different from when you're 20 and it's just boom, boom, boom all the time. So.

• 25:37Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  That's exactly how we did it, guys.

• 25:39Speaker 02

  Yeah. But like, all of that was hard. And I like, actually feel for men who say the same thing, because I think that there's shame that comes with it. And that limits communication and intimacy. And there's also just like fear, like, is this what it is, what she is, what we are.

• 25:56Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  What would be your advice? I mean, there's guys listening going, okay, bro, you know, you're the only dude talking about this on the internet. So let's, you know.

• 26:03Speaker 02

  I think finding new connection points, like, this is a really good opportunity to do that. I think that our Disney prince.

• 26:12Speaker 02

  Nature of wanting to like sweep someone off their feet and be the solution. This is going to be the time that you learn that that's not what you do. This is where you listen and you empathize and and you're there for her in ways that you're not normally there for people. And like, that's really strengthened our relationship. I think me learning that. Also, I got a really good piece of advice. We had this guy on who does like, he's a guy who's on TikTok talking to other husbands about perimenopause.

• 26:40Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  Oh, I think I know who that is.

• 26:42Speaker 02

  He's amazing.

• 26:42Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 26:43Speaker 02

  So he said something about intimacy. I'm not just talking about sex, like intimacy and connection that like, it really only works when the woman is relaxed. For guys, we could be skydiving.

• 26:56Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  Yeah.

• 26:57Speaker 02

  And it's

• 26:57Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  That's a good point.

• 26:58Speaker 02

  And everything's going to work. But like, imagine all the things that's going on in their body and understand how impossibly difficult it is to just be relaxed. And so that was like a really cool piece of advice to me as well, because I was feeling that.

• 27:11Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  Do you feel like this was the hardest season of your marriage?

• 27:14Speaker 01

  I do believe for Penn, his, his love language is physical touch. And when I was in my feelings, I did not want to be touched at all. And so he, I had to communicate to him, this has had nothing to do with my love for you. I love you so much. I'm because he wants, when he sees me in panic, in crisis, he wants to. And there are moments, I love that. There are moments I want like, just like wrap me up and hug me.

• 27:39Speaker 02

  But you're usually like three to six feet.

• 27:41Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 27:42Speaker 02

  You're like COVID. You like that sort of amount of

• 27:44Speaker 01

  I want you here, but I don't want you touching me.

• 27:48Speaker 02

  Right, exactly.

• 27:48Speaker 01

  And once he sort of realized that that's the, that's the way I could operate. I will say our relationship is deeper and better. I think we're closer now than we have been. But yeah, there were some bumps in the road because it's hard not to take it personally. Right? Because you do go from like, having like a very nice, regular sex life to, you know what? I just can't be touched right now. Or any sort of, not, not just like having sex, but any sort of that, that intimate feeling when you have true connection with your partner. Because sometimes I just needed to be alone. And I think he got it quickly and he learned not to take it personally.

• 28:33Speaker 01

  But yeah, it's hard not to take it personally.

• 28:35Speaker 02

  So here's the toughest part. Like, she's been incredibly communicative about it. And I, I believe her. Like, I don't think, like, the first instinct you get when something like this happens is, it's me, right? Every guy, they get that. And then, and the next instinct, which you don't want is, is it somebody else? Like, is there something else that would make her happy?

• 28:53Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  Right.

• 28:53Speaker 02

  Does she maybe want to be with women? Like, you know, that's-

• 28:56Speaker 01

  I mean, sometimes.

• 28:57Speaker 02

  Right.

• 28:58Speaker 01

  I've been on that side of TikTok.

• 28:59Speaker 02

  Women are awesome. And so, like, I'm completely at peace with trust and totally understand that she's saying what she believes. But then my subconscious has no control over that. So I have, like, crazy dreams, like, from time to time, and I can't do anything about that. But for men, that, I would guess, is the biggest challenge.

• 29:18Speaker 01

  And there are a lot of men out there, and Penn hears from them, that do not believe whatever is happening here.

• 29:25Speaker 02

  Yeah, that's a whole different thing.

• 29:26Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  And that's, that's a divorce waiting to happen.

• 29:28Speaker 01

  And, and like, that's a different podcast. But he, there are some men that have walked up to me like, "Yeah, that menopause stuff, right? Like, she's full of it." Some stuff like that. And Penn is a good ally, ladies, because he will say, "Actually," and he'll, he'll, he'll throw some science at them. So-

• 29:44Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  Do you feel like you're on the other side now?

• 29:46Speaker 01

  Of what?

• 29:49Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  I guess we're never gonna get to the other side. So, like, I didn't know I was going through perimenopause when I was going through it. Like, we learned how to, how to pronounce it in medical school and residency, and like, it's a transition. I'm still having periods. I don't know. But like, I couldn't stand for him to hold my hand. I was aggravated with everything. And it was an inflection point in a lot of things. Our parents were starting to get old and, and need us more. Kids were becoming teenagers. Like, like, you're like many of us in this stage, there was all of this other stuff. And then, my resilience wall was coming down. You know, my brother was dying. And I do feel like, now, now we're totally empty nested. Okay? And he's retired from his job. He's now helping me in our, but you know, I just feel like we're lifers now.

• 30:32Speaker 01

  Right.

• 30:32Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  You know, but it was in that peri-menopause time and figuring it all out that I felt like that was the furthest apart we were in those times where I was like, are we gonna make it?

• 30:42Speaker 01

  Got it.

• 30:43Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  Like, am I better off not in this relationship? That did bubble up a few times.

• 30:47Speaker 01

  I do believe we are on the other side of whatever that was. I still very much am aware of what's happening. I'm very peri right now, like a very peri-menopausal. I am medically really like tapping my foot, waiting for actual menopause because I'm hoping that.

• 31:06Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  It's coming. I promise.

• 31:08Speaker 02

  So you guys want it to come?

• 31:11Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  It's, it's like.

• 31:12Speaker 02

  What happens?

• 31:13Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  Clinician, it's treating a woman in peri-menopause.

• 31:16Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 31:16Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  It's like pinning the tail on a moving donkey.

• 31:19Speaker 02

  Right.

• 31:19Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  And you know, you get that tail on the donkey goes over here and then you gotta switch this and whatever. Like, once they're post-menopausal, it is so much easier for me as a doctor.

• 31:27Speaker 02

  Is there like, do you, how do you know? Is there a?

• 31:30Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  A blood test, like, you know, medically.

• 31:33Speaker 02

  The can goes off outside your vagina.

• 31:35Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  Yeah.

• 31:37Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  The close for business sign goes up.

• 31:39Speaker 02

  And that's good.

• 31:40Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  So as far as what's going on hormonally, you flatline and that's like easier to resuscitate than, so blood test and listening to symptoms, but you know, the brain stuff calms down a lot. So my patients who like their main complaint was the mental health or cognitive stuff. That is much easier to kind of manage in post-menopausal and then the bleeding stops, you know? And so the.

• 32:05Speaker 02

  Okay. So it's just your period, stop getting your period.

• 32:08Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  Right.

• 32:08Speaker 02

  That's the.

• 32:09Speaker 01

  That's the.

• 32:10Speaker 02

  And that coincides with subsiding some of these wonderful traits than like, love you, but things that you don't like very much.

• 32:18Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  Oh, yeah.

• 32:18Speaker 01

  Right.

• 32:19Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  For to go. And so, you know, once we kind of put out the fire, the management and stuff, you know, once women are post-menopausal, we're focusing on the next 30 years. Like at that point, her whole focus shifts to keep me out of a nursing home, you know, like.

• 32:31Speaker 02

  The longevity stuff.

• 32:32Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  I got, yeah, but I don't want to break. I don't want to lose my independence. So like, and I know I have a window of opportunity here to set myself up for success for the next 30 years. So that's like the funnest part of my job. The most difficult part is helping her manage peri-menopause.

• 32:46Speaker 02

  Got it.

• 32:47Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  Which wasn't even a thing. Like, that was not a thing. We couldn't treat a menopausal patient till she was a year past her last period. So we just let her, like, wing it.

• 32:55Speaker 01

  I feel so sorry for my mom and people in my mom's generation because they were told to get off estrogen and freaking deal with it.

• 33:03Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  My mother was sedated. Like, I remember the butasol pills, you know, that I had to go get when she was having a moment of crisis. And so, you know, I'd go get her little pills of butasol and like, go bring them to her. And, you know, it was probably a placebo effect because like, she'd take one and immediately, everything was better. So, you know, I was in medical school and that memory bubbled up because we were in pharmacology. And I was like, what?

• 33:27Speaker 01

  What was she taking?

• 33:28Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  This is something they gave for seizures. Like, yeah, butalbital. It is a cousin of phenobarbital.

• 33:36Speaker 01

  I mean, and if, and if I weren't on all the medicine I'm on right now, I would say, give it to me.

• 33:41Speaker 02

  Is there like a connection between like, how strong someone's menopausal symptoms are with like, how, like, how much empathy they're, like, how much empathy they're feeling in the world around them? Like, how much?

• 33:59Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  You know, no one's looked at that. What we know is if you had a really rough postpartum, like, if you had postpartum depression, postpartum, you know, anxiety, any of that stuff, you are a ringer for having a rougher menopause. The healthier you are, now, I hate to say this because I have triathletes, you know, who just get gobsmacked through the menopause transition. But it tends to be the healthier your diet, the more you exercise, the more your, you know, symptoms will be worse. But I mean, you know what? Throw that out the window. It is what it is. But I don't think anyone yet is looking at, if you're a more empathetic person, then all of a sudden, your resilience, they pull out the carpet from under your feet, like, if you're gonna suffer worse.

• 34:44Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 34:45Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  Menopause, then we have estrogen receptors, progesterone, antihistosterone receptors everywhere in our body. So someone's top priorities might be her joint pain. She is not functional, you know, but her mental health is fine. You know, it is such a- Cornucopia of like how this might hit you. So what I've learned through just taking care of menopause now is like, what are your goals?

• 35:03Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 35:04Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  For you, it was mental health, it sounds like.

• 35:06Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 35:06Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  You know, like, you know, you're an athlete, you're, you're.

• 35:09Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 35:10Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  That's not an issue for you.

• 35:11Speaker 01

  Like physically, I mean, besides wild periods, there's not.

• 35:14Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  Yeah, for some, it's like, I can't be bleeding through a meeting.

• 35:17Speaker 01

  Right.

• 35:18Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  You know, and changing a diaper. Yeah. You know, with the bleeding I'm having or anemia.

• 35:22Speaker 01

  Yeah, like, I'm totally fine.

• 35:24Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  Fifteen percent of us won't have hot flashes. So, you know, just your thermo regulatory center is fine in the brain. But, you know, we see across, historically across the menopause transition, we double the amount of women who need an SSRI. And what we're learning now is we probably should start them early, soon and often on estrogen, progesterone, whatever combination to stabilize mental health. And they may need something, an SSRI, SNRI, you know, one of the antidepressant, anti-anxiety meds still, but we probably were over treating with some of these meds. When really what they needed was estrogen.

• 35:58Speaker 01

  Right.

• 35:59Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  You know, or, or some, some hormone support.

• 36:02Speaker 01

  I believe it. I had really wild, um, postpartum anxiety, depression, and then that's when I first got diagnosed with OCD. I'm probably glad I didn't know that a wild postpartum experience would have made, because I think I would have been anxious about.

• 36:17Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  About that.

• 36:17Speaker 01

  So.

• 36:18Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  Well, we've ripped the Band-Aid off and now we're telling the world.

• 36:20Speaker 01

  Sorry. Sorry, guys.

• 36:23Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  Talk to me some more about that because I had remembered in medicine back when I, this was when the Andrea Yates thing happened and, and it was, it was right by where we were training. So she was in Clear Lake, 20 miles from Galveston.

• 36:37Speaker 01

  Do you remember this?

• 36:38Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  Andrea Yates drowned her children. She had postpartum hallucinations and she heard voices telling her to drown her children. Anyway, so like, it was that or you were fine. I was not taught anything in between. We had screening, like, we didn't want to miss the woman who was going to hallucinate and like destroy her family. You know, so we were screening for like the most severe symptoms. Really, it was like, you will be okay, this will pass, you know?

• 37:03Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 37:03Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  So I remember having intrusive thoughts with. My oldest of her drowning. She's in a, in a carrier. She can't like swim, you know, like there's no.

• 37:13Speaker 01

  Near a pool. She's fine.

• 37:15Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  Yeah.

• 37:15Speaker 01

  I remember being like at my six week appointment, I was asked like, are you, or do you have visions of hurting your children? And like, oh God, no. Like that wasn't it.

• 37:25Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  That's how we were screaming. Are you thinking about hurting yourself or someone else? Okay. No, check, move on.

• 37:30Speaker 01

  Move on. And it was actually our pediatrician. I think it was like our, my, like a 12 week appointment or something with my son and Penn was there. And I was having trouble nursing and I wasn't sleeping and like, there's just so much going on. And the doctor came in with like a can of formula and it was like, you need to take care of yourself. You are there and, and looked at him like she needs to get some help. Cause I was just like, he wasn't gaining weight. And then, and it was this whole, and I was just could not handle it. And the doctor asked, how are you doing? And I, he was there because I couldn't drive because I was so afraid. I had visions of semi truck hitting our car.

• 38:09Speaker 01

  I couldn't walk downstairs, holding him because I would like sit on my butt and scoot down because I would never hurt my, I had visions of the opposite. So it wasn't until the pediatrician flagged it.

• 38:20Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 38:20Speaker 01

  And then he drove me to a psychiatrist.

• 38:23Speaker 02

  Should there be a better way to ask that question in the screening?

• 38:27Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  Yeah. I mean, it's probably better now, but you know, the way we were, this happened, we had no screening before.

• 38:35Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 38:36Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  We knew about postpartum depression, but like, uh, you know, and it's so shameful. Like, like the patients were so reluctant. I remember like people bringing in their, like a husband coming with the wife and like, she's not okay.

• 38:50Speaker 01

  But you didn't want to be the Andrea Yates. You, you didn't want to be thought of like I could hurt my kid.

• 38:55Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  Cause you know, they should be crazy. Right. Of medicine.

• 38:58Speaker 01

  And that's like when mommy bloggers were like a thing and it was like 2008, 2009. And I was desperately seeking a voice that was saying like, this is really hard.

• 39:08Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 39:09Speaker 01

  And I think women were afraid to say it was hard because they didn't want to be thinking like, oh, I'm going to go hurt my kid.

• 39:13Speaker 02

  And it sounds, it sounds unnatural. It sounds incriminating.

• 39:16Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  Right.

• 39:16Speaker 02

  Right, especially if you ask it that way. It maybe something like, were you really surprised to get this thought that you quickly pushed away? But it's not what you really believe in.

• 39:25Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  Yeah.

• 39:26Speaker 02

  That's probably a more accurate thing. Or the best of the doctor was like, you know, I had this thought when I was because again, empathy is this way.

• 39:36Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  Like making you feel normalized it.

• 39:38Speaker 02

  Empathy is how this movement is growing.

• 39:40Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  Yeah.

• 39:41Speaker 02

  It's you guys sharing your stories and feeling not broken, not alone. And like, there's a way to get out of it.

• 39:48Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  I think that's the internet, good and bad, as we've all learned. It's allowed the sharing of experiences that were kept hidden before and people going, oh, that's me. Yeah. You know, I feel seen.

• 40:00Speaker 01

  Right.

• 40:09Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  So you got diagnosed with ADHD?

• 40:12Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 40:12Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  As an adult?

• 40:13Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 40:14Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  Not as a kid?

• 40:14Speaker 02

  I was 21.

• 40:16Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  How? College?

• 40:17Speaker 02

  How? Do you want to know what happened?

• 40:18Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  Yeah.

• 40:19Speaker 02

  So I, first of all, I was on academic probation twice in college.

• 40:22Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  On purpose?

• 40:24Speaker 01

  He had an awesome time in college.

• 40:26Speaker 02

  I had the ability to go to classes more than I actually did, but no, I mean, my, um, my Ritalin was my mom. Growing up, but way before anyone knew what ADHD even was, she helped regulate my emotions. And she helped me get my homework done. She like knew that I was smart, but that I needed some self-starting skills, which she tried to instill in me. And then when that didn't happen, she just kind of said, here, come on, I'm going to hold your hand and do this with you. And so I was getting some bad grades in college, uh, but I still was having an awesome time. I was at my grandmother's funeral, uh, my in between my junior and senior year. And she was like, the first time I had no grandparents on one side of my family. So there was this big beach trip that our family took for two weeks.

• 41:09Speaker 02

  And it was the most important week of the year for two weeks of the year for me, because I really felt at home. And I think everyone had ADHD there, probably we all got a long grade. And so the family was having this talk about what we were going to do next in this room in Tarburn, North Carolina. And I started daydreaming about all the great times we'd had and like, what are we going to do now? And all of a sudden my Aunt Zell, she says, Penn, I'm sorry. None of us can concentrate because you're chewing on a used fly swatter.

• 41:36Speaker 02

  So I picked up a fly swatter in east, there's a lot of flies in eastern Carolina in the summer. And I, while I was thinking, I put it in my mouth and I started chewing on it with no idea that I was doing it whatsoever. But it was like, whatever, that was a fidget for me, right? And that was gross. And everyone laughed. I did not laugh. I felt like I went from, you know, you're a space cadet, you're an adorable space cadet to, is there something fundamentally wrong with me? So I drove myself to a doctor and he diagnosed me very quickly.

• 42:07Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  And did you even know that was a thing?

• 42:08Speaker 02

  Yes, I had heard of it before.

• 42:11Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  Okay. Did you feel like an alien?

• 42:13Speaker 02

  Before or after?

• 42:15Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  I guess both.

• 42:15Speaker 02

  I felt like an alien most of my childhood.

• 42:17Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  Okay.

• 42:18Speaker 02

  I mean, I would chew on my shirt to the point that there was a saliva circle that went all the way around here. I had a lot of like acquaintances, but not a lot of close friends because I did not know how to let people finish their story without jumping in. I had wild creativity and understanding of music that most of my friends didn't have. But when I was asked to take piano in a recital and sit and look at music, I couldn't read the music and didn't want to read the music. I just wanted to hear the sounds and just reproduce them. So like, in some ways, good alien, but in a lot of ways, just kind of bad alien. The most important thing was I cried all the time. Like if something didn't go my way,

• 43:02Speaker 02

  it flooded me emotionally. And it went on way, way later than most kids. Like it happened to me in high school sometimes. So that was probably in the playground society that I lived in, probably the most alien that I felt.

• 43:14Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  And then after you got the diagnosis, you felt you had a, you had a name?

• 43:17Speaker 02

  Yeah, but no one explained the emotional side of ADHD in the 90s. And I think they're just barely doing it now.

• 43:23Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  I just felt like it was like, all in reference to how you were doing scholastically.

• 43:27Speaker 01

  Right.

• 43:27Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  You know?

• 43:28Speaker 01

  That was the measure of-

• 43:29Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  It's not how you see the world, or this was, we need you to do well in school.

• 43:33Speaker 02

  That's why I did it. And I, they gave me drugs. I took them. They gave me something called Dexedrine, which apparently is like-

• 43:40Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  A diet.

• 43:40Speaker 02

  Meth. Yeah. So I was on meth my senior year and I got better grades.

• 43:46Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  This is amazing.

• 43:47Speaker 02

  They gave me no behavioral interventions or systems or anything. Understandably, like this was, it was a medical model. They looked at a problem and they tried to fix it. And so it actually took- Quite a while to to realize A that I the the medicine personally was stunting my creativity and all the music that I heard in my head, I didn't hear it anymore. And then much later, after I'd found a job that actually worked for ADHD, which is, if you're watching us on any device, like it's most of us have ADHD. Because it just is conducive, but much later, a lot like a, you know, a woman who starts

• 44:29Speaker 02

  getting overtaxed with a family and a job, like stuff started falling through the cracks for me in my mid 40s. And that's when we started working on the book.

• 44:38Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  How's the book going and you guys have a new book, right?

• 44:41Speaker 02

  We do, the book is growing great. It continues to just sell. People are interested in it and we didn't expect.

• 44:47Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  And the book is?

• 44:48Speaker 02

  Oh, it's called, sorry, it's called ADHD is Awesome.

• 44:51Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  And we have a children's book and we have a new children's book this year, too.

• 44:54Speaker 02

  I know, we're writing a bunch of books about ADHD, which wasn't the direction we thought we were going to go in, but much like you, we thought we had like a hopeful, positive message around it. And ADHD and menopause have so much in common. They've been, and I'm not even talking clinically, like they're, they both need to be de-stigmatized.

• 45:11Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  Yep.

• 45:11Speaker 02

  They're both under diagnosed. They're in a lot of times not perfectly understood by healthcare and by doctors.

• 45:17Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  Yeah.

• 45:18Speaker 02

  Right? There's, there's deniers out there who say it's not a thing, you're just complaining. And then on top of that, apparently menopause gives you ADHD.

• 45:26Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  Makes you feel like.

• 45:27Speaker 02

  Or makes you feel like you've got, you've got ADHD.

• 45:29Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  Is the term we're using now.

• 45:31Speaker 02

  Yeah, sorry.

• 45:31Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  So, you know, your, your resilience drops, your coping skills drop, your whatever. And you, you know, it's a spectrum, right? I'm on the other end of it where I can hyper focus and shut the whole world out. And that's great when you're a doctor and studying for medical school is horrible when you have children who are like, Mom, Mom, Mom, Mom. And you're so focused on what you're doing, but it's exploding right now, the conversation around.

• 45:58Speaker 01

  Changes in cognition and attention and focus in the menopause transition. And so what have you guys seen on your social media?

• 46:06Speaker 02

  I mean, it's really complicated because women are under diagnosed with ADHD like more way more so.

• 46:13Speaker 01

  It took like my kids both have it. Right.

• 46:16Speaker 02

  And it's because y'all are tougher than us. You're better at internalizing your difficulties. So when you're a kid, the time that it's most often diagnosed, it's masked.

• 46:26Speaker 01

  Well behaved.

• 46:26Speaker 02

  It's masked because.

• 46:27Speaker 01

  They were pleasantly staring out the window, not causing any distractions.

• 46:31Speaker 02

  We're allowed and we're doing karate in the middle of church. And so like we get diagnosed and then for women, they become, uh, they become women. They become moms. They have to do, so like they have to do signup genius. And that's like the low key.

• 46:47Speaker 01

  Cryptonite.

• 46:48Speaker 02

  Cryptonite for ADHD. And for some reason, like every time I'm on signup genius, I'm the only dude who's on there. But I think those executive functioning challenges really happen when you become a working parent or even a parent, right? And so then they're getting diagnosed at a later age.

• 47:04Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 47:04Speaker 02

  Kind of close to perimenopause. I think those waters are muddied for us. We've like that, that book was written largely for parents who have kids with ADHD and for maybe teenagers or 21 year olds, young adults who've been diagnosed. And so the parents are reading it and going.

• 47:21Speaker 01

  Whoa.

• 47:22Speaker 02

  Wait a second.

• 47:23Speaker 01

  So many people, we have, we had a girlfriend and she's 50. She read it just because she was like being supportive of us. And she's like, holy shit, Penn, I think I have ADHD. And she went and she did the full diagnosis with the psychiatrist. She did everything. She goes, my childhood makes so much more sense. And a lot of women are being diagnosed when their kids get diagnosed because they're filling out the questionnaire going, holy crap, that's me. That's not normal. And I think it's. Such a relief for women just to have a name for it.

• 47:55Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  Yeah.

• 47:55Speaker 01

  Right. And you could be gentler on like your nine year old self, right? Like, looking back, we love being part of the conversation on, on ADHD. And finally, finally, there are studies being done on women and girls now.

• 48:09Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  Yeah.

• 48:09Speaker 01

  Because all the other ADHD studies, it was mostly male participants.

• 48:14Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  This is all of medicine.

• 48:15Speaker 01

  All of medicine.

• 48:16Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  Unless you're pregnant. So.

• 48:18Speaker 02

  Our neck of the woods, Duke University, they have a women's center for ADHD.

• 48:22Speaker 01

  And so they're.

• 48:22Speaker 02

  So awesome. Yeah.

• 48:23Speaker 01

  But you know what? Medical studies, the good ones, take a long time. So we would love to get a megaphone and talk more about women with ADHD. But the, the studies are, are just lagging. What we do know is that genetically, women are just as likely to have ADHD. But they're chronically under diagnosed and we've been, you know, we get to go to these book signings and we meet, we met so many people and the moms that come and hug Penn for their kids to be seen. But they have tears in their eyes because they just got diagnosed. But then they'll put the audiobook on, the husbands will listen to it and just be gentler. And I think once there's like an understanding, because when, when there's the mom who's ADHD

• 49:07Speaker 01

  and the house is sort of like falling apart, it's really easy to like blame her. You know, and if there's an explanation for it and if there's systems that could be put in place.

• 49:19Speaker 02

  Listen, like when, when you give a kid or an adult or anybody, whatever the condition is, an understanding of what's going on in their brain, like they immediately are more likely to want to get to work and try to make it less than an excuse to like, try to, try to make the world around them.

• 49:37Speaker 01

  Oh, I.

• 49:38Speaker 02

  Bend to its will.

• 49:39Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  I loved your book because as a parent, as a doctor, I was one of the, not naysayers, but.

• 49:47Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  You know, I really felt like people who would medicate their children, this was a cop out. You just need to love them through this, you know, and then I tried to love my daughter so hard through it and got tutors and a lot of screaming at the table. We went over this question 75 times. You still got it wrong, you know, whatever. And then finally, a couple of her teachers were like, you should go get her tested, you know, and my older daughter had had some dysgraphia and, you know, we had gotten her all the stuff. But my youngest had these, this core group of friends she's still best, best friends with. It's the most beautiful relationship and they were all straight A, perfect, perfect, perfect grades, all the things. And my daughter was always on the struggle bus, you know?

• 50:30Speaker 01

  That's so hard.

• 50:31Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  And she was growing up with this thought of, I'm not smart.

• 50:35Speaker 01

  Oh.

• 50:37Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  And we took her to the pediatrician and she said, let's get her tested and I think you're going to be able to give her a gift.

• 50:46Speaker 02

  That's a really great way to put it.

• 50:48Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  And I burst into tears because all of my prejudice and bias and everything I felt about this diagnosis and, and me as a failure as a parent, and I didn't love her enough and I didn't provide the right structure or whatever she needed, you know, this, she's like, let's give her a gift.

• 51:07Speaker 01

  How'd it turn out?

• 51:08Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  She's fabulous. She's perfect. Her grades shot up immediately, which, you know, that's again, another problem parental thing of like, if my kids are making good grades, I'm a good mom.

• 51:19Speaker 01

  It doesn't equal well being, right?

• 51:20Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  Yeah. And then my older daughter was diagnosed much later. She coped and had skills, you know, whatever until the MCAT. That was her breaking point of, I need some help here because I can't, all these systems I had in place aren't working to, for me to get through this next level. And then of course, she's been on meds through med school and doing great, you know, everything, everything is fine. But like, God, you know, in reading your book, I sobbed because. I wish I would have had that as a parent, you know, when they were little and I didn't get it and I didn't understand, even though I was a doctor and I wasn't a pediatrician, but you know, it just would have been so much easier for my kids and I would have brought them in sooner and just been a better resource for them.

• 52:04Speaker 01

  And I mean, listen, we're not against medication at all. Medicine's been great, but there's a lot of things that are just don't require medicine.

• 52:11Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  That you can't medicate.

• 52:12Speaker 01

  Yeah. And in our school system, it's like hard to get extra time. Our kid has ADHD and he has a learning plan. Extra time is like really hard to get. But I'm like, wait, if they, if, if he can get a hundred on the test if he has extra time, like, why does it, what, what, what, what job is he going to have to recite all of like pre calculus in like 30 minutes as opposed to 45? Anyway.

• 52:34Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  It's, yeah, that whole timing thing is.

• 52:36Speaker 01

  It's wild.

• 52:37Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  It's wild. Amazing.

• 52:41Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  Now it's time for the Midi Pause. I'm Dr. Mary Claire Haver, host of the podcast UnPaused, bringing you a word from Midi Health. Today, we're facing the truth. Aging is inevitable, but how you age, that's completely in your hands. This stage of life is not an end. It's an evolution. And with the right strategies, you can reclaim control over your body, your mind, and your future. I call it my menopause toolkit, and it starts with six foundational pillars. Nutrition focused on anti-inflammatory foods, protein, and fiber. Movement, especially strength training and daily activity. Protecting your sleep, because it is the backbone of

• 53:23Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  your hormonal and cognitive health. Working with a knowledgeable provider on personalized pharmacology. Managing stress through mindfulness, gratitude, and embracing progress over perfection. And finally, community, because no one of us should be doing this alone. That's exactly what Midi Health is built around. Care for women that focuses on maximizing health span and helping you with your menopause toolkit. Living longer, more active lives, not just longer ones. Midi offers personalized care that leverages evidence-based interventions tailored to your life. It's never too early or too late. Wherever you are in your journey, Midi Health will meet you there with the solutions you need.

• 54:07Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  Women come to Midi to address the symptoms they experience every day. Midi partners with you to find the right treatment, whether that's HRT or a non-hormonal solution, giving special attention to the four areas that matter most as we age: hormone optimization, specialized nutrition, resistance training, and targeted therapies. Progress starts with a personal plan. That's why the Midi approach centers on a holistic combination of solutions, from medications to lifestyle changes, with a care plan built for your body and your needs. By doing so, Midi Health is setting a new standard for healthcare. As the nation's fastest-growing women's telehealth company, Midi provides accessible, insurance-covered services designed by medical experts.

• 54:52Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  Building on its leadership in perimenopause and menopause, Midi fills the critical health gaps women face at every age and life stage. If you want a clinician in your corner who truly understands what your body and brain need right now, that's exactly what Midi is built for. Go to joinmidi.com. Join M-I-D-I dot com and connect with one of their clinicians today.

• 55:17Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  Now you are half empty nesters?

• 55:19Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 55:20Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  How's that going?

• 55:24Speaker 01

  You had texted me a few times, giving me a heads up. I was not prepared for how sad I was gonna be. You told me. But like, until you live it, so my, my daughter's off to college, my son's at home, I think the lack of estrogen in the house, I felt like, it's just like, I'm just very aware of how much testosterone there is in my house right now. I'm obsessed with my son, I love my son so much, but when she left, I was very unprepared for help. Sad I was gonna be. And it's just cruel that this happens during perimenopause.

• 55:53Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  Yeah, that's a lot going on at the same time.

• 55:56Speaker 01

  It's a lot going on at the same time.

• 55:58Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  How do you keep your relationship from turning into a shared Google Calendar since you're working together so much?

• 56:04Speaker 01

  Oh, that is such a funny question.

• 56:06Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  Like, who makes the decisions on what you're gonna do? I know you have managers and all that now, but.

• 56:10Speaker 02

  We're more like the making the content. So that's been really useful. Still, the question is a good one because it's it's hard to be off sometimes. Like even when everyone's done, you go to work unemployed every single day because whatever it is that you put out is out. And then whatever is next is it's it's not like a six month lead time like a movie. It's one or two days. Like, what's next? And so for that reason, we've talked about this, like the challenges of going to dinner and like not talking about work.

• 56:43Speaker 01

  I think we were a lot better about it. I think we are still married because we have Emery, Sam and Desmond who work with us and they take a lot of the just the the work part of it out so we can stay married.

• 56:56Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 56:56Speaker 01

  Because and when it was just the two of us, it was that was really hard and it was all we talked about. So now we challenge ourselves. Like we go out to dinner and we don't talk about like work. But now our next challenge is to go out to dinner and not talk about work.

• 57:11Speaker 02

  Or the kids.

• 57:12Speaker 01

  Or kids.

• 57:12Speaker 02

  Yeah, that's.

• 57:13Speaker 01

  And so.

• 57:13Speaker 02

  What are we gonna talk about?

• 57:14Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  And it gets kind of. Yeah, like, what?

• 57:15Speaker 01

  I literally bought conversation cards.

• 57:19Speaker 02

  No, those are great.

• 57:19Speaker 01

  It was great because I asked a couple of questions and it got off of I'm like, we've been married long enough that I need conversation cards. But it was.

• 57:27Speaker 02

  It's like conversation Viagra.

• 57:33Speaker 02

  No, seriously, like it's.

• 57:34Speaker 01

  It got things going.

• 57:35Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 57:36Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  Oh, my God.

• 57:37Speaker 01

  Yeah, it was. Yeah. And it was, it keeps it keeps the dinners from spiraling into like, okay, but then he has a basketball game and we get back, but then we have to leave town on Saturday.

• 57:45Speaker 02

  This last night.

• 57:46Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 57:47Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  Okay, this is gonna end. Like, he's 16.

• 57:50Speaker 01

  I know.

• 57:51Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  And then what are you gonna talk about?

• 57:52Speaker 02

  I mean, so the big things you talk about at dinner are work, kids, extended family, just like other people.

• 57:59Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  Parents are parents.

• 58:00Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 58:00Speaker 02

  Whatever. I get like, if she asks me, I can talk about space and science fiction for six straight hours, but that's a one sided conversation.

• 58:10Speaker 01

  Yeah, I actually pulled out my camera because we were having a dinner. It was like, no works, no kids. And then I asked him about-

• 58:16Speaker 02

  Sure, I'll talk about Quantum Entanglement.

• 58:18Speaker 01

  He's the book he's reading. And I just, he is talking for so long, he didn't even realize I'd taken out my phone and hit record because he was just, if you need filler on a podcast, he can come on and talk about space for a really long time. So, but I try to be interested in it because he's interested in it, but I'm-

• 58:36Speaker 02

  I know, I know. So, but it's a good question. But honestly, when she got the conversation things, even like the book of questions, I think everyone who ever like went to a camp where they were like trying to hook up with a girl at a Christian camp, but you wanted to ask him a question, like you probably have like, wait, that was too much information. There's this thing called the book of questions that would like, is a really good way to get to know people better.

• 58:57Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  How many girls you hook up? I was unsuccessful all the time. You guys have got to make your own set of conversation cards for middle aged, like over the hump.

• 59:05Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 59:05Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  You know?

• 59:06Speaker 02

  That's a good idea. We're gonna call it Conversation Viagra.

• 59:09Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  I need commission on this. Conversation Viagra. Like, you know, for those of us who make it over the hump.

• 59:13Speaker 01

  Make it over the hump. I mean-

• 59:14Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  And then what are we going to talk about for the next 30 years?

• 59:16Speaker 01

  Honestly, I'm very excited.

• 59:18Speaker 02

  We're gonna do this.

• 59:19Speaker 01

  I know. I'm obsessed with my son. I'm going, you're gonna have to like peel me off the floor when he goes to college. But I am looking forward to that time in life.

• 59:27Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  All right. Thank you so much for coming on UnPaused.

• 59:29Speaker 01

  Well, I'm very thankful for you and all the work you're doing. I, and I'm just, it makes me so sad that my mom didn't have a you, you know, way back when. So, thanks for what you're doing. And thanks for having us here.

• 59:39Speaker 02

  And I'm glad to see you haven't lost your phone.

• 59:41Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  Thank you, my hero.

• 59:43Speaker 01

  Yeah, he's good like that. Well, thanks for having us. All right.

• 59:47Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  You can find more information about Kim and Penn's books, podcasts, and social channels at theholdernessfamily.com. You can find full episodes of UnPaused on YouTube at DrMaryFlair. I'd love to hear from you about this topic and anything else that's on your mind. You can find me on Instagram at Dr. Mary Claire and get honest and accurate information on health, fitness, and navigating midlife at thepauselife.com. My new book, The New Perimenopause, is available now everywhere you buy books. If you're loving this podcast, I have an important request. Please take a moment to follow UnPaused on your favorite podcast app. Following and listening is what pushes this information to more women who need it.

• 1:00:32Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  So if this podcast has helped you feel seen, understood, or supported, hit follow right now so you never miss an episode. Thank you for being here with me. Let's keep going, UnPaused. UnPaused is presented in conjunction with Pod People. I'm your host, Dr. Mary Claire Haver. The views and opinions expressed on UnPaused are those of the talent and guests alone and are provided for informational and entertainment purposes only. No part of this podcast or any related materials are intended to be a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis, or treatment.