#2496 - Julia Mossbridge

Julia Mossbridge, PhD, is a cognitive neuroscientist, author, and educator. She is the founder and president of American Electrodynamics, the co-founder and chief science officer of Applied Love Labs, and a senior advisor for American DeepTech. Her latest book, “Have a Nice Disclosure!,” is available now.www.youtube.com/@JuliaMossbridgewww.applied.lovewww.juliamossbridge.com Perplexity: Download the app or ask Perplexity anything at https://pplx.ai/rogan. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:01Speaker 00

  The Joe Rogan Experience. Training my day, Joe Rogan Podcast by night, all day.

• 0:12Joe Rogan?

  Hello, Julia.

• 0:13Speaker 02

  Hello, Joe.

• 0:14Joe Rogan?

  Pleasure to meet you.

• 0:15Speaker 02

  Yeah, I'm very excited.

• 0:17Joe Rogan?

  So you said you had questions for me?

• 0:19Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 0:19Joe Rogan?

  We can start with your questions.

• 0:20Speaker 02

  Excellent.

• 0:21Joe Rogan?

  First of all, tell everybody what you do.

• 0:23Speaker 02

  Okay, let me just change the angle of this.

• 0:25Joe Rogan?

  Just so folks just tuning in right now are like, who is this young lady?

• 0:29Speaker 02

  Thank you.

• 0:30Joe Rogan?

  What do you do?

• 0:31Speaker 02

  I'm a year younger than you.

• 0:32Joe Rogan?

  There you go, then you're young.

• 0:34Speaker 02

  Nice. What do I do? I was trained as a scientist, cognitive neuroscience and computer science, and did some AI stuff, did some stuff with the human brain in terms of trying to understand how time works in the human brain. And then I got really interested in how funky time works in the human brain, like precognition, which is, of course, predicting future events in ways that we don't normally think about.

• 1:03Joe Rogan?

  That's how I found out about it.

• 1:04Speaker 02

  That's you, is the Popular Mechanics article.

• 1:05Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, I believe so.

• 1:06Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:07Joe Rogan?

  And then a bunch of other stuff that I looked at.

• 1:08Speaker 02

  And then a bunch of other stuff, yeah.

• 1:10Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:11Speaker 02

  And then I got interested in just the idea of what we call exceptional human performance. So I actually don't think it's that exceptional. I think people have these capacities and they've been dampened down, and they're in us, and they can be developed, and some people have them just sort of naturally. I'm a person who has some of them just naturally, not all of them, but there are people all over who have these different gifts, and how does that work? And so that became a question that was interesting to me.

• 1:36Joe Rogan?

  Well, it's always interesting when this question is asked by an actual scientist. So you approach it by, let's try to gather data, let's try to find out what we can actually show. Because so many people have feelings that there's something else. Like you have intuition, you have some sort of pre-knowledge of events and some feeling of something, you're thinking of someone and they call you, is that real? You know, that kind of stuff has always puzzled people. So it's always fascinating when someone like yourself actually spends a lot of time studying it and trying to gather data and trying to show what's real and what's not and what you can actually show.

• 2:17Speaker 02

  I agree, it's fascinating. I'm not sure it matters. So, I mean, my experience has been that sort of regardless of how much time I spend studying it and how much I see it and how much I can test different controls to make sure it's not this, that, or the other thing, and that it really is getting information from the future, or it really is telepathy, people still kind of don't, in the science world, tend to just ignore it. Or it actually is actively suppressed. I mean, there's some papers that I've published that just won't get listed in Google Scholar, even though they're in peer-reviewed journals with other articles that do get listed in Google Scholar. So there's, it's frustrating, and who cares, because it's just an academic complaining. But I'm also not an academic.

• 3:02Speaker 02

  I also want to build things. I'm into making stuff. So I got my PhD at these tier-one research institutions, like Northwestern, got my masters at UCA San Francisco, I did my postdoc at Northwestern, so fancy-dancy institutions. So I learned a lot about how to think and how to write and how to do these kind of experiments. And I know what I'm seeing, and I keep seeing it. And other people who study the same stuff keep seeing it. But it is, it is inside of me, or there's something inside of me that wants to create things with this. Okay, so this is happening. People have these capacities. You know, they're actually useful. What can we do with them? And it turns out, you can do a lot

• 3:46Speaker 02

  with them if you feel like you are allowed to have them, if it doesn't feel like it's verboten, if it doesn't feel like shameful, which is part of the cultural piece.

• 3:55Joe Rogan?

  Or foolish.

• 3:56Speaker 02

  Or foolish, which is part of the questions I wanted to ask you.

• 3:58Joe Rogan?

  Okay.

• 3:59Speaker 02

  So, what I notice when you talk with people is you're, you seem like a tough guy, but you're really sensitive, like you're an incredible, obviously, an incredible listener. And you learn all these things, and you're putting together, just this is my impression, you're putting together a, kind of a map of the world, like a map of knowledge of the world, through all these different people's eyes. And my question for you is, how do you see culture shifting? Because I think you're really sensitive to it, and I think you're kind of like one of these signal fish that are at the...

• 4:39Speaker 02

  You notice what's happening in the environment and you're gonna guide a school of fish accordingly. So, do you think that the culture is shifting towards sort of better use of these, I guess, exceptional or these natural capacities that we already have? Or do you think that we're shifting away from it and we're gonna run away in fear?

• 5:05Joe Rogan?

  Hmm, that's a good question. Okay, so I think that because of conversations like the ones that you've had and the ones that I've had, the ones that are available online, I think people get a much deeper understanding of so many different topics and so many different things than has ever been available through whatever you want to call the mainstream media. And when you have these inherent prejudices in higher learning, whether it's people that don't want to be foolish, so they don't want to entertain certain notions, or they don't want to accept certain things because it goes against things that they've taught

• 5:49Joe Rogan?

  and things they wrote about, we have a problem of ego. And ego becoming a wall to gathering more information or getting a better detailed map of the landscape. And I think there's way more people that are pondering these ideas and having these conversations and thinking about these things than has ever been before. And I think that's one of the really beautiful things about the internet. The internet has made much more information available and many more people are thinking about these things in ways that,

• 6:30Joe Rogan?

  you know, if you were in an environment where your career depended upon you following certain lines and certain narratives, you wouldn't pursue that because that would be detrimental to your own personal interest. Like if you wanted to get ahead in academia, all of a sudden you're talking about psychics and premonition and, you know, people are like, "Oh, Julia's a fucking loon." Like, why, you know, but you're courageous and you see value in these things. And because you can come on here and talk about it, instead of just addressing a class or selling a book that's gonna reach a few thousand people. We can have a conversation where 10 million people are gonna listen. And so then those 10 million people are gonna go to work.

• 7:15Joe Rogan?

  And they're gonna tell their friends at work like, hey, this is, you know, you know how that feeling that you get where sometimes you know something's gonna happen and it happens like that might be real. And then there was this lady, she was on the Joe Rogan podcast and she was talking. And so that opens up people to this idea that you don't have to worry about being a fool. Because that's what a lot of people worried about. It was a big hurdle talking about aliens, UFOs. Like all my life, all my life, I've always been fascinated by UFOs and aliens. But I don't mind being a fool. Like I, I was fascinated by Bigfoot forever. Kind of abandoned that for the most part. But I like weird stuff. I'm interested in it.

• 8:00Joe Rogan?

  And I don't, I'm not a person that needs to be taken seriously. It's not my job. I'm literally a comedian. Like you can make fun of me, I'll make fun of me, it's fine. I don't, it doesn't, my, my future doesn't rely on people taking me seriously. So I think having that ability to have conversations about all kinds of different things is really changed the way the entire world is discussing just reality. Like every, everything about reality. From quantum computing to alien life, to international politics, to the way human beings misrepresent each other purposely for their own gains.

• 8:44Joe Rogan?

  Like, what is all this? Like, and why, why has it taken so long to have so many discussions about this? So I think that's, if I have a purpose in this world, it's like I'm an antenna for that. Part of living a healthier lifestyle means being extra careful of what you put into your body. AG1 Pro gets that. Their formula was carefully crafted with vitamins, probiotics, and superfoods your body needs, plus enhanced support for your workout and recovery, including creatine. In fact, AG1- AG1 Pro contains 5 grams of Creavitalis, high-quality, German-made creatine monohydrate, and that matters. This Creavitalis is made in Germany

• 9:28Joe Rogan?

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• 10:13Joe Rogan?

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• 10:56Joe Rogan?

  including a bottle of omega-3 fish oil and vitamin D tossed in with your first subscription order of AG1 Next Gen or AG1 Pro, backed by a 90-day money-back guarantee. That's drinkag1.com/joe. This episode is brought to you by Squarespace. If you're thinking about building a website, you should try Squarespace. I know because I use it. That's right. joe rogan.com is powered by Squarespace. It has all the Features that you need to create a standout website like an AI enhanced website builder, SEO optimization tools and seamless checkouts with mobile pay links.

• 11:39Joe Rogan?

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• 11:51Speaker 02

  Yeah, I'm just clapping because it's such a great purpose because, you know, the reason I fell in love with science was it's about discovery. It's about not knowing. It's about being foolish. I had this, I was just thinking today, I had this amazing high school biology teacher who had us go outside and he gave us these little note cards and he said, on one side of the note card, I want you to write a question about your environment. Look around, you know, the plants or whatever, pick something, the dirt, whatever, and write a question you think Einstein would ask about this. And then he said, okay, now flip it over and I want you to write a question that like a two-year-old would ask if a two-year-old could, you know, write. And my favorite side was the two-year-old. And at the end, he said, now Einstein was more like the two-year-old.

• 12:37Speaker 02

  He said Einstein was full of wonder and confusion and uncertainty and he just asked questions and imagined things. And that's how I want you all to learn to be. And I was just like, yes.

• 12:50Joe Rogan?

  That's a good teacher.

• 12:50Speaker 02

  That's amazing teacher. And, and so then I, when I went to graduate school and I went in the world of academia and I was like, there's all this pressure to, you know, you write your grant after you've done about three quarters of the work so that as soon as you get the grant, then you can publish the papers that go with the grant. So you're not really discovering anything. You're kind of talking about, here's what I already know, but I'm acting like I haven't looked at it yet or. And there's pressure to follow, as you said, follow the line of thinking. For both funding and for your career.

• 13:23Joe Rogan?

  Hmm.

• 13:24Speaker 02

  And, you know, I was told very nicely by wonderful people who wanted to support me that if I took the stuff about psychic stuff off my resume, I would have a perfectly good resume for academia. And I was like, are you crazy? This is the stuff that's actually interesting? Why would I want to take it off? But that's what took me away from academia and made me realize I had to put one foot in building things. I could leave a foot in academia, but I had to, I had to build shit because academia is so slow. They can learn something and then 10 years later, they're like, do you think it's true? And then 20 years later, they're like, maybe we can make something with it. And it's like, yeah. But at the same time, you have to be careful. You don't get to just say, well, I just know people are psychic and therefore, you know.

• 14:07Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 14:08Speaker 02

  Screw it. So, um, so yeah, there's this dance. There's this dance there. But when you were saying this thing about the people are afraid to be foolish.

• 14:19Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 14:19Speaker 02

  I wonder how much it helps me to come from a family of very foolish, eccentric people.

• 14:27Joe Rogan?

  I'm sure it helps a lot.

• 14:28Speaker 02

  Because I'm not afraid to be foolish. In fact, I just know that I am.

• 14:31Joe Rogan?

  Well, I think intelligent, kind people don't mind talking to people that says, occasionally say foolish things.

• 14:41Speaker 02

  Well.

• 14:41Joe Rogan?

  Or things that could be perceived as foolish because they're willing to take chances and look at these obscure topics and strange phenomenon and just, and not, not worry about the stigma that's attached to these subjects that keeps supposedly intelligent or serious people, people that want to be considered as serious people.

• 15:02Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah.

• 15:03Joe Rogan?

  From discussing.

• 15:04Speaker 02

  Well, like when you said the thing about Bigfoot.

• 15:07Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 15:07Speaker 02

  And, and I laughed a little bit. That was, that was like a reflex laugh from academia.

• 15:12Joe Rogan?

  Well, it's a fun one. Bigfoot's a fun one.

• 15:15Speaker 02

  It is, and I have friends who study Bigfoot and other cryptids and, and in a, in a scholarly way.

• 15:21Joe Rogan?

  Mm hmm.

• 15:21Speaker 02

  And I had to learn not to laugh. Like, it's like we have our little discomfort and then we laugh because, oh, I want, I want to be taken seriously and stuff, but. You know, interestingly, the UFO whole world got accepted into the mainstream land of things that possibly exist before the psychic world, but the psychic world has been studied like by the intelligence community, et cetera, since openly, since like the 50s.

• 15:48Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 15:48Speaker 02

  Whereas the UFO world was supposed to be, oh, we don't care about that, and then only recently has come to the fore. So it's really interesting to see this balance. They're both related, and they're both have their own processes of disclosure. But it's just interesting, culturally, it's interesting to see this instinct to be right, as you called it. And I feel like that's, I was, there's the PBS convention is in town right now, in the hotel where I'm staying. And I, and I gotta say, I think that's still largely a very left-leaning organization. And I was raised up in a really left-leaning household. But the thing that really pisses me off about the left is this wanting to be smart and

• 16:33Speaker 02

  proving that you're smart. And the thing that pisses me off about the right is wanting to be right. And I feel like both of those things fail.

• 16:42Joe Rogan?

  Yes.

• 16:42Speaker 02

  I mean, neither of them allows us to just discover, okay, what's next? Like, how can we actually, how can we actually solve the problems that are going on, instead of just wanting our team to win?

• 16:52Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 16:53Speaker 02

  And so it's interesting to me how the cultural change with science also relates to our politics.

• 17:00Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, I grew up in a very left-leaning household as well. My parents are still very left. And I think that there is a real problem with ideologies where, especially in this country, we're so polarized, we have a right and a left. And I think most people are kind of in the middle somewhere, you know, and I'm certainly in the middle. I'm probably like middle-left. That's where I kind of see myself. But if you like read about me, I'm like far-right somehow or another, which is very weird.

• 17:29Speaker 02

  I know, it's interesting. I'm now independent. I'm officially independent, because I'm like, screw it.

• 17:34Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 17:34Speaker 02

  I don't, I do think most people are in the center. And I think we need to get clarity on that you get to, you get to say something that's different from what either side is saying.

• 17:45Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, the problem with either side is you have to accept, if you're gonna accept, if you're gonna join one of their team, I had a bit about it in my last comedy special, that if you're gonna join their team, you have to believe all the things.

• 17:59Speaker 02

  Right, and you have to kind of display them, perform, like you're performing.

• 18:03Joe Rogan?

  Very good point.

• 18:04Speaker 02

  Right, you have to, you have to say all the right words, and if you say the wrong words, you're cancelled, and that happens on both sides.

• 18:09Joe Rogan?

  100%, and you know, the right was always complaining about the left doing it, but now the right's doing it. They're cancelling each other about all kinds of stupid things. And it's just a, it is, it's, you know, Marc Andreessen's talked about this, that they display all of the behavior that you get from cults. It's the same thing.

• 18:27Speaker 02

  Totally.

• 18:28Joe Rogan?

  Excommunication, yeah, extreme following of doctrine with no deviation whatsoever. Everyone's very performative, that they are more in line with the doctrine than you are. Ew.

• 18:42Speaker 02

  Yeah, and by the way, academia is a lot like that.

• 18:45Joe Rogan?

  Oh, it's very much like that. That's very disturbing.

• 18:48Speaker 02

  It is disturbing, because these people, you're supposed to be open-minded, because how are you gonna get to tru, I mean, the idea is to get to truth, right?

• 18:54Joe Rogan?

  Yes.

• 18:55Speaker 02

  How are you gonna get to truth if, if you've decided, well, that person's asking this question, that's an inappropriate question?

• 19:01Joe Rogan?

  Yes. Yeah, and it's also, there's this thing about people being gatekeepers of information. So like, if you're an expert in a very particular subject, and someone disagrees with that, people are like, I am a PhD in this subject, and let me tell you about this, and I know what's going on.

• 19:17Speaker 02

  Like that.

• 19:17Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 19:18Speaker 02

  It's so irritating, and actually, that bothers me when I go on shows and people say, oh, but you're a scientist and you study this, and it's like, yeah, but could we not revere me for that reason? Could we instead ask the question, like, does she do good work? Does she have interesting thoughts? You know, does this seem reasonable? Does it seem like she's after the, you know, moving towards the good? Those are really the standards, regardless of your degree. And so, it worries me that we put so much reverence in scientists or whatever, or experts, and I also see that there can be this problem where you go, oh, experts are all full of shit, and then, you know, you have to get like, brain surgery, and you're like, I would like a really good neurosurgeon. So, there's kind of both.

• 20:00Joe Rogan?

  Oh, 100% there's both. I think the problem is human ego. And the problem is that even people that have like deeply studied subjects, the wanting the reverence and wanting people to defer to you wholly with no questions whatsoever, like as if you have the entire database on whatever this thing, this thing is settled, this is settled science, we know everything about it. And that doesn't seem to be the case very often. There's very few things that seem to be completely settled. And it's much more interesting to me when I talk to someone that their perspective is, I'm a person that has spent an inordinate amount of time going over this stuff, and this is

• 20:42Joe Rogan?

  what I know. I might not know all of it, but this is, this is what we know, and this is why we think this is what it is, and this is... So, instead of like, having this ego, and I see it, oh god, I see it from so many, it's a very male thing too, it's a very male ego thing, to be like, the, you know, the dominant force of the narrative, you know, that they're the enforcer of the narrative, and, you know, very dismissive and very rude, and saying, you know, just insulting things about anybody that deviates from it, instead of just saying, this is why I think this is the case, and this is what we've learned

• 21:26Joe Rogan?

  over the years, and this is... But having humility, when you're dealing with, especially when you're dealing with something like cognitive, like anything involving consciousness, anything involving the human mind, it's so complex. There's so much going on, and it's so biologically variable. There's so many different people that have different ways of thinking, and their mind works differently. One of the more illuminating things about doing this podcast is... Having so many different people in here and so many different conversations, so many unique and fascinating people, but they're all different.

• 22:03Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, you're like, you're like tasting from all the different flavors of humanity. And, and it's a delight to listen to, but I, I sort of wanna know what it's like to be in your brain as you start to soak, it's like you're a sponge and you're soaking in all these points of view. So the model that you're building, I just, I wonder a lot about what it's like to be different people. And I imagine the model that you're building of the world is really well informed. Hey, Jamie, could you turn down my?

• 22:28Joe Rogan?

  Oh, you could do it. There's a little thing right there.

• 22:30Speaker 02

  Oh.

• 22:31Joe Rogan?

  Yeah. We're like professionals.

• 22:34Speaker 02

  That's like your whole show. But yeah, I, I think the model that you're building could be put to some really powerful use. So I'm here to convince you to run for president.

• 22:46Joe Rogan?

  Oh, God. Trying to get me killed, Julia? How dare you? No, I'm not interested in any job, in any government whatsoever.

• 22:54Speaker 02

  I'm, I'm

• 22:55Joe Rogan?

  I like doing this.

• 22:56Speaker 02

  Okay, I get it. But what you said about it's a really male thing, I think it's better said to say, it's a really insecure male thing.

• 23:05Joe Rogan?

  Yes.

• 23:06Speaker 02

  Or insecure, it's an insecurity thing that happens more probably to men because there's such a standard of you're supposed to be alpha. Everyone's supposed to be alpha.

• 23:13Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 23:14Speaker 02

  And for women, there's not that standard, you're not, you know?

• 23:16Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 23:17Speaker 02

  And so there's more insecurity because everyone can't be alpha. And what the heck is alpha? And so I feel like I, I, I have a desire for someone who has a sense of their own, like is secure in their own masculinity and their own femininity, which I think you have both. I hope you don't mind me calling you out on that. I know that you have this reputation of being like total guy, guy, but you have this, I mean, because you're a deep listener, that's already a feminine trait. And so

• 23:50Joe Rogan?

  Is it really?

• 23:51Speaker 02

  Yeah. Oh, yeah.

• 23:52Joe Rogan?

  Okay.

• 23:53Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 23:54Joe Rogan?

  I didn't know that. I never thought of listening as being masculine or feminine.

• 23:58Speaker 02

  Listening is a deeply feminine trait because you have to be relatively humble to want to listen.

• 24:03Joe Rogan?

  And humility is a feminine trait?

• 24:04Speaker 02

  Yeah. No, it's just I don't, I don't think of it as a feminine trait.

• 24:08Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, I don't think listening is a feminine trait.

• 24:10Speaker 02

  Yeah, maybe I'm wrong.

• 24:12Joe Rogan?

  I think it's a kind

• 24:13Speaker 02

  Women are generally better listeners. I mean, that's

• 24:15Joe Rogan?

  Really?

• 24:16Speaker 02

  Yeah. It depends on if you're in a relationship with them or not.

• 24:18Joe Rogan?

  Depends on who you're talking to.

• 24:22Joe Rogan?

  I don't know if that's true. I don't know if that's true.

• 24:25Speaker 02

  Let me see where I'm gonna get in that.

• 24:26Joe Rogan?

  I think curious people, genuinely curious people are better listeners. That's what I think. And I don't think women or men are genuinely more curious.

• 24:35Speaker 02

  You're right. And I think that there's a thing, if you're always trying to prove that you're alpha, and I think men are more susceptible to that.

• 24:44Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 24:45Speaker 02

  Where you could not be a good listener, because you want to make sure you say the right thing.

• 24:49Joe Rogan?

  That's an insecurity thing.

• 24:50Speaker 02

  And then I think there's more insecurity among men because of those standards that are ridiculous. And so maybe that's what I'm talking about. But you're definitely right. I can definitely think of men and women who are both crappy listeners and good listeners. So it's about the insecurity. It's about the emotional maturity.

• 25:06Joe Rogan?

  I think it's also a learned thing that, you know, people have this desire to show everyone how intelligent they are and how dominant they are in any particular subject. And it's one of the most infuriating things about having conversations where people aren't really talking to you, they're just trying to win whatever little verbal game you're playing. They're trying to one-up you and they're trying to...

• 25:29Speaker 02

  I've seen that.

• 25:30Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, it's gross.

• 25:32Speaker 02

  And also just, like, it makes you want to leave.

• 25:35Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, it's not fun. It's not a fun conversation. Like, I love talking to people way smarter than me.

• 25:40Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 25:40Joe Rogan?

  It's fun. Like, I don't need, like, I can't be the smartest person. I'm friends with Elon. I'm definitely not the smartest person, and I know that. I'm friends with a lot of people that are fucking way smarter than me. So I'm just curious. And I think the world would be a lot better place if more people were curious. And if you embraced it and not, and just squashed that insecurity that makes you want to, like, puff your chest up and...

• 26:07Speaker 02

  See, I don't think you could squash it. Like, I get, I also think the world would be a better place if more people were curious. But I think the solution is, I don't think any, squashing anything works. Like, I think, I think you have to work through it.

• 26:21Joe Rogan?

  Mm, that's a better way to say it.

• 26:23Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 26:24Joe Rogan?

  Than squashing it, right?

• 26:25Speaker 02

  Squashing it just means it's gonna come up later as garbage.

• 26:27Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, that's, yeah, no, you said it better, yeah. It's really just addressing why you're insecure. And for a lot of men, um, there's, there's just physical insecurity. And the physical insecurity is a real problem. But some of my favorite people are martial artists. And one of the reasons why is because they're the least insecure. Everyone's insecure in some way. But martial artists are dealing with that insecurity literally on a daily basis. So like, say jujitsu, for instance. If you're training jujitsu, if you go from white belt to black belt, you have to get humiliated thousands of times. There's no ifs, ands, or buts about it. There's, if you're a white belt and you train with a black belt, you're gonna get humiliated.

• 27:12Joe Rogan?

  Or dominated. You're gonna lose. You have no chance. And so by learning over and over and over and over again that you're not really special, and it's really just about the time you put in and then about getting better, and having the ability to objectively assess your position, who you are in this, this room of people that are trying to strangle each other, who you are in the world itself. And I think a lot of people don't ever address that. And so they run around trying to posture and pretend they're something they're not. Pretend they're smarter than they are. They're more of an expert, a subject. They're the one who should talk. You should listen. You know, there's a lot of that.

• 27:53Joe Rogan?

  Whenever people say, "Just shut up and listen," I'm like, that's not, I'm not going to do that. And I don't want to talk to anybody that wants to. And I don't ever want anybody to do that if I'm talking.

• 28:03Speaker 02

  Well, yeah, because then you're not having a conversation. That person doesn't exist.

• 28:06Joe Rogan?

  Exactly.

• 28:07Speaker 02

  You've just decided that person doesn't exist, or they don't matter.

• 28:09Joe Rogan?

  You just, you've asserted dominance in the dumbest way possible, which is intellectual.

• 28:14Speaker 02

  Yeah. Yes. That is the dumbest way possible.

• 28:18Joe Rogan?

  Sure.

• 28:19Speaker 02

  And, and the funny thing is culturally, we kind of think that it's the smartest way possible.

• 28:23Joe Rogan?

  But it's just a bunch of fools.

• 28:25Speaker 02

  Well, yeah, yeah, yeah, and so what?

• 28:27Joe Rogan?

  Fools with a lot of information.

• 28:28Speaker 02

  Okay, but let's talk about what, what a better world would be. So in a better world... In a better world, if you're gonna assert dominance, you would, like the martial art, what I love about martial art is, first of all, it's all mental, almost all mental. And then, second, it's very similar to what happens when you go through and get your PhD, right? You get beaten down, and you realize you're not the smartest person in the room, and you're hanging out with all these other super smart people. And then, you've gotta learn to be like, okay, that's not what matters. So that's the good part of going nuts with school. But, but there's this false information. It reminds me of when I was at UCSF and I went to go see this talk by this famous scientist.

• 29:12Speaker 02

  I think he won an Nobel Prize. I forget his name. But he was an asshole. And he gave his brilliant talk, but I couldn't pay attention to it because he was an asshole. He was being rude to people who asked questions. He was just dickish. I mean, I don't know how else to say it, just like arrogant. Yeah. And I walked out, and someone said to me, one of my mentors said to me, you know, you have to learn to separate the personality from the information that they're, that they're giving. And I said, you know, no, I don't. Like, he's giving me all the information and his personality. Right. Right? I don't need to learn to listen to that. I need to learn to say, unlike all of you all, I need to learn to say, I'm not gonna

• 29:56Speaker 02

  hang out with people and put myself in the presence of people who are rude like that. That's more important than their amazing intellect. And I, somehow, somehow, we got to a place culturally where we think you can be really mean, or dismissive, or rude, and arrogant, and that's fine because you're winning. And I feel like a better world would acknowledge that what's more important is...

• 30:27Speaker 02

  Love, which is this connection where you actually acknowledge there's someone else there, even if you like think they're an asshole, but still.

• 30:35Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 30:36Speaker 02

  You know, like I wasn't practicing love, I wasn't accepting him, who he was, but I was in a place where the environment wanted me to just ignore sort of the information I was getting about who this guy was and just say, no, all that matters is his intelligence.

• 30:51Joe Rogan?

  Yeah. Well, sometimes you can learn a lot from people that are gross.

• 30:57Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 30:57Joe Rogan?

  You know, and it's valuable to be able to put their personality aside and listen to the actual information, but still.

• 31:05Speaker 02

  In that moment, though, I wasn't.

• 31:06Joe Rogan?

  You don't want to, yeah.

• 31:07Speaker 02

  Well, in that moment, in that moment, I was like 24 and I was a woman in a field where there are a lot of guys and I was feeling like I have to have boundaries, you know? I have to learn to have boundaries. And then later, when I'm, you know, like now, I'm post-menopausal and you know how post-menopausal women are, we have much more confidence.

• 31:31Joe Rogan?

  We're not playing that game anymore.

• 31:33Speaker 02

  Yeah, no, right, exactly. It's just like now, I'm like, I can listen to, you know, some asshole, listen to what he's saying, but at the time, it's like, no, like, I have to stand up for something that I think is important.

• 31:43Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 31:44Speaker 02

  You know, I, I'm not saying I'm better than, I'm saying I had that experience that made me see that there was this level of like sort of import placed on the intellect. And that had always been the case. My family had always placed all this level of import on the intellect and I just kind of walked out of that.

• 32:04Joe Rogan?

  Well, it has to be balanced. Like, I think putting all of the emphasis on the intellect itself and ignoring the personality is kind of like, the messenger's important, like the message is important, but the, the messenger sucks, that, that, you know, if, if someone was yelling out the most amazing information in the world, but they were singing it like a Slayer song, I don't know, it's a bad example, but you know what I mean? Like, you know those death metal bands where they just scream?

• 32:35Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 32:36Joe Rogan?

  And you're like, oh geez, I gotta get out of here. It's not my thing, right? But it could be like the most interesting information, but the messenger sucks.

• 32:43Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 32:44Joe Rogan?

  It's not fun to listen to. It's not exciting.

• 32:46Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 32:46Joe Rogan?

  Or the messenger's arrogant, or the messenger's rude, or. It ruins the message.

• 32:52Speaker 02

  Yeah, you need both.

• 32:52Joe Rogan?

  Human beings need to communicate and in order to communicate, we need to, we need to establish that we're just two people, you know, and if you have some information that I don't have, I want to hear it. I don't want to like, oh, she's saying too many smart things. I want to say something smart to show I'm smarter than her. Well, hold on there. You know, there's a lot of that and that's a lot of that in academia because that is their entire identity.

• 33:15Speaker 02

  It's a chess game.

• 33:17Joe Rogan?

  Yes.

• 33:17Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 33:18Joe Rogan?

  But it's a chess game with pieces that are stunted, like they're not allowed to freely move.

• 33:22Speaker 02

  No kidding. Yeah, it is a cult. I mean, that's the cult part.

• 33:25Joe Rogan?

  Yes.

• 33:26Speaker 02

  That's where you leave and people feel sorry for you. And you're like, I have my freedom. I'm so excited. And they're like, I'm so sorry for you.

• 33:33Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, it's, it's social hierarchies. It's gross.

• 33:35Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 33:36Joe Rogan?

  And, you know, I mean, I think that's going to exist whenever there's ego, whenever there's these, the human dynamics of these bizarre creatures that we are, where they're territorial apes with weapons, you know, they're like, we're weird and we're always establishing some kind of dominance, whether it's intellectual dominance or wealth dominance or social hierarchy dominance. Like people love that stuff. They love it.

• 34:05Speaker 02

  Is it, do we, or so I?

• 34:07Joe Rogan?

  They love to play it. They love to pretend.

• 34:09Speaker 02

  We love to pretend it, but do, I mean, do we really?

• 34:13Joe Rogan?

  Well, that's why people name drop. That's why people want to have the fanciest cars and the nicest watches.

• 34:18Speaker 02

  I know, but is that really making them happy?

• 34:21Joe Rogan?

  No, it's not.

• 34:22Speaker 02

  So I don't know that people love it. I think people do it because they think it's going to make them happy, but I don't think they love it.

• 34:27Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, there's something to that. There's, there's probably something that some sociopaths feel if they show up with a million dollar watch and a million dollar car and they, you know, pull up in front of a giant house that's bigger than anybody's like, wow, look at me, I did it. But I think, yeah.

• 34:42Speaker 02

  But that's rare. I think that's rare.

• 34:44Joe Rogan?

  Yeah. I think it's not lasting either. And then there's also a bunch of people that are on fucking pills. They don't even know what they're like. Just running around in the fog of pharmaceutical cloud.

• 34:54Speaker 02

  But that's the way they're dealing with it. So it's like, like, I guess if we see it as like, there's this big problem, which is that, I call this the human problem. No one knows how to be with themselves or others in any kind of harmony. Like.

• 35:07Joe Rogan?

  Right. Harmony. That's a good word.

• 35:09Speaker 02

  We don't know how to get to harmony.

• 35:10Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 35:11Speaker 02

  Right? And so one way is for drugs and one way is prayer and one way is. The big car and the dominance in one way is, you know, being addicted to your phone. I mean, you know, none of them work.

• 35:26Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 35:27Speaker 02

  But all of, I mean, that's not true. I think prayer works. But, but I think the only one that works is love, and I think that's what prayer is about. But earnest prayer. But we have to try. I mean, we're built to try to get to harmony, apparently, because we keep trying. And so part of me wants to say, I'm of two minds. Part of me just says, like, we're trying the best we can, and we have all these faults. And then there's a part of me that says, and we can do better.

• 35:56Joe Rogan?

  Well, we definitely can, and I think that's one of the reasons why people hunger for conversations. Because we're all trying to figure out how to do better.

• 36:02Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 36:03Joe Rogan?

  The, the human mind is one of the most extraordinary things that's ever been studied. And yet there's no guidebook on how to use it.

• 36:10Speaker 02

  Because we still don't know. Do you know how much we don't know? We know about as much about the human mind now as we knew in 1991, when I first went to graduate school. I mean, in neuroscience. I mean, the brain, we know a lot more about the brain. We still don't know that much about it. We're still missing some basic pieces of like, things like, what's the neural code? How do these neurons actually communicate? How do we actually learn? How do we actually represent things in memory? But, but we know more. But in terms of the mind, wow, we're just beginning. I mean, I guess I'm differentiating the brain and the mind. Like, the brain is this, like, physical chunk of stuff that's related to the mind. But the mind is what we are doing.

• 36:52Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 36:53Speaker 02

  Well, the thinking, feeling, emoting, wondering, all that stuff is mind stuff. And that's super mysterious.

• 37:03Joe Rogan?

  And super difficult to manage for almost everybody.

• 37:06Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 37:06Joe Rogan?

  And again, no guidebook.

• 37:08Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 37:08Joe Rogan?

  You're, you're giving the most complex instrument known to man, which is the human mind.

• 37:13Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 37:13Joe Rogan?

  And everybody's like, figure it out. And you're like, fuck, maybe I'll become a Mooney. Maybe I'll go into Scientology. What do I do? I have to do something. I have to do something. Someone else knows. I know. I'm the one who knows. Follow that guy. You know, it's like, that's what we do.

• 37:28Speaker 02

  Do these 10 things and you'll be okay.

• 37:30Joe Rogan?

  Yes, that's how cults get started.

• 37:31Speaker 02

  I'll do those 10 things because we're so nervous. We can't figure it out.

• 37:34Joe Rogan?

  Exactly.

• 37:35Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah. Have you ever seen a baby be born?

• 37:38Joe Rogan?

  Sure, yeah.

• 37:39Speaker 02

  Yeah, so, so have I, my own. But also, I was a doula for a couple of friends who were having babies and...

• 37:47Joe Rogan?

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• 38:32Speaker 03

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• 38:58Speaker 04

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• 39:09Speaker 00

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• 39:30Speaker 04

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• 39:56Speaker 05

  Ask your doctor about Caplyta. Learn more at caplyta.com or call 888-222-1112.

• 40:01Speaker 02

  You know, everyone should just see a baby be born.

• 40:05Joe Rogan?

  It's very psychedelic.

• 40:07Speaker 02

  It's psychedelic and it's also, it just, it puts you in that liminal space where it's like you've seen beyond the veil, you've seen the border land between life and death. And it feels to me like that experience, which is much more rare for people to have now, most people can, can avoid seeing a baby being born.

• 40:28Speaker 02

  But that experience is, and also seeing someone die, that experience, I think, helps train us in, it is the instruction book for the human mind. I don't know why I'm saying that. I, I look at you, you know, you're wrinkling your brow and I'm like, also, why am I saying that?

• 40:44Joe Rogan?

  No, I'm not only wrinkling my brow because I'm listening.

• 40:46Speaker 02

  I never.

• 40:46Joe Rogan?

  I have the face of someone who's always upset, but it's not true.

• 40:52Speaker 02

  No, I, I don't know why I said that, like I've never had that thought before, but it occurred, I guess I was looking at this little, like you've got this little like idol thing on you.

• 40:59Joe Rogan?

  Oh, that is a death whistle. That's an Aztec death whistle. Don't do it. Last time we did it, the pandemic started. Yeah, we got rid of it close enough.

• 41:07Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 41:08Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, and with the hantavirus thing going on, don't blow it.

• 41:12Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 41:12Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, it's, it's a meme online because my friend Brian Callen was in the podcast studio and he blew this Aztec death whistle, like literally, it was like a week before the fucking pandemic. It was way too close. It was way too close. And the meme was Brian Callen kicking off the pandemic with the Aztec death whistle.

• 41:29Speaker 02

  Okay, well, I didn't blow it. I saved everybody.

• 41:33Joe Rogan?

  Do you know what Aztec death whistles are?

• 41:35Speaker 02

  I imagine it's really scary.

• 41:37Joe Rogan?

  It sounds horrible and they would play them at night while their enemy was like camped at night. And so they would haunt them so they couldn't sleep. They would stand on the mountain tops and make that noise. And it's very high pitched and it carries.

• 41:53Speaker 02

  Like a crying baby.

• 41:55Joe Rogan?

  Well, no, it's very, it's like demons. It sounds like demons.

• 41:58Speaker 02

  Like people screaming.

• 41:59Joe Rogan?

  And you just think, this is the last day of my life. Here's what it sounds like.

• 42:02Speaker 06

  Aztec soldiers will blow while charging into battle and during human sacrifices. But how does a whistle make that horrifying sound? When air is blown into the tube, the airflow splits into a big and small chamber, each making a different voice you're about to hear.

• 42:19Speaker 06

  Click here to see me try the world's loudest.

• 42:21Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 42:21Speaker 02

  Did that guy survive this video?

• 42:24Joe Rogan?

  I don't know. He might not even be real. In this world, that might be AI.

• 42:27Speaker 02

  Well, that's true. So no wonder I was thinking about like the veil between life and death because I was looking at that thing and there's something that is like a reset. You know, when you, um, when you see a baby be born or you see someone die.

• 42:43Joe Rogan?

  Hmm.

• 42:43Speaker 02

  It's like a, um, it's like you get to what matters and it's, and it's not whatever the dominance thing and it's not the insecurity thing and it's not the, it's not any of that.

• 42:58Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 42:59Speaker 02

  You know? So I think that's the instruction book. And so we're sort of given these little resets that allow us to get in touch with what really matters, but the more we get away from them, you know, in the modern world, um, maybe the fewer instructions we have. I don't know. Never had that thought before.

• 43:18Joe Rogan?

  Yeah. Um, I, I think it would benefit almost everyone to do something that takes you out of your own thoughts. And, um, I think that physically difficult things are the very best at that. Like yoga is one of the very best things at that because it's very physically difficult to do. It, it requires a lot of willpower and concentration while you're doing it. You're balancing yourself, you're sweating, you're straining. And because it's so difficult, you can't think of anything else other than it while you're doing it.

• 43:54Joe Rogan?

  And I think that cleans your mind out and that it purges you of all this weirdness that's inside of you that is constantly battling with everything around you and allows you to just be.

• 44:09Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 44:09Joe Rogan?

  Just exist.

• 44:10Speaker 02

  Yeah. Yoga, I mean childbirth is very physical. Dying is very physical.

• 44:15Joe Rogan?

  Yeah. But the thing is you can't voluntarily do that every day.

• 44:18Speaker 02

  No, you can't. You can't. But, but I do sort of think like childbirth for women who, who go through it or are lucky enough to go through it, um, is kind of like bootcamp for men. I mean, it really, it really.

• 44:31Speaker 02

  Pushes you to your limit and then puts you in an altered state where.

• 44:37Joe Rogan?

  Oh, for sure. You just had a human come out of your body.

• 44:39Speaker 02

  No.

• 44:40Joe Rogan?

  And now it's alive and you love it more than anything.

• 44:42Speaker 02

  Yeah, and it brings this like incredible, I'm looking at this UFO guy behind you. It brings this incredible self transcendent experience of like, whoa.

• 44:50Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 44:50Speaker 02

  This is not about me, you know, and so, yeah, same with people who play team sports. I was never one of them, but I hear that that experience happens.

• 45:00Joe Rogan?

  Yes.

• 45:00Speaker 02

  Or like when you're practicing a musical instrument.

• 45:03Joe Rogan?

  I think anything difficult.

• 45:04Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 45:04Joe Rogan?

  I think when I was talking about martial arts, you could, martial arts will help you in that regard. But I think kind of anything that's hard to do gets you out of your head.

• 45:14Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 45:14Joe Rogan?

  And helps you.

• 45:15Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 45:15Joe Rogan?

  And just getting an understanding that whatever you're doing in life, if you concentrate on it and focus on it and you'll get better at it. And that gives you confidence and an understanding of kind of how the world works. And then you could also apply that to being a person, you know, like you're not the same person you were when you were 20 years old, right? Why? Because you're better at being a person because you've lived a lot, you've had a lot of experiences, you made a lot of mistakes and you're constantly, constantly practicing and learning, you know? And I think other things that you can do, other than just being a person, will enhance your ability to be a person.

• 45:54Speaker 02

  Yeah, being a person who is applying yourself to something.

• 45:57Joe Rogan?

  Yes, my martial arts instructor had this thing that he told me when I was very young. He said that martial arts are a vehicle for developing your human potential.

• 46:05Speaker 02

  Mm hmm.

• 46:06Joe Rogan?

  And that.

• 46:07Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 46:08Joe Rogan?

  But I think, but I think that could be guitar playing, that could be tennis.

• 46:11Speaker 02

  When I used to teach from my viewing, we used to call it a mental martial art. It's anything that's hard on which you have to concentrate that puts you in that space of flow. And the flow means that, you know, you know, that Holly Chicks at Mahali idea. I don't know if I pronounced his name right, but this idea of timelessness and you're just sort of having to surf whatever's happening.

• 46:35Joe Rogan?

  Mm hmm.

• 46:36Speaker 02

  And that could happen, it could happen in any field, right? Whatever. Whenever you have to apply your whole self to something, then what's a, it's so ironic because you apply your whole self to something and then what that allows to happen is that you become selfless, like you're almost like a tube.

• 46:54Joe Rogan?

  Right, you're not thinking about you anymore, you're thinking about the thing.

• 46:57Speaker 02

  Yeah, and there's neuroscience to back that up, right?

• 47:00Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, yeah, I think anything difficult, there that I feel that when I practice archery, I feel that when I play pool, I feel that when I work out, anything difficult where you you lose yourself, but in doing that, you're like you can, you have a better understanding of yourself, which is

• 47:18Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 47:19Joe Rogan?

  Odd.

• 47:20Speaker 02

  Yeah, and it's almost like you come into consciousness more.

• 47:23Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, I'm really fascinated by the remote viewing and I want to get to that, but I want to start with like, how did you begin studying this stuff? So you're involved in neuroscience, you're, you know, you're trying to pick which lane you're gonna really pursue all your interests in, how did you get involved in this idea of premonition and psychic ability and that there's a real something there?

• 47:49Speaker 02

  Yeah, I um, I sort of hid it from my, I hid my agenda from myself.

• 47:56Joe Rogan?

  Really?

• 47:57Speaker 02

  So, I discovered, you know, later in life, yeah, because when I was a kid, my first precognitive dream that I remember was when I was seven, and it was very clear. I dreamt that my friend, I knew which friend, Eshane, would, what would happen, she would lose her watch, where would it happen, on the playground, and then the next day that happened, it was very specific, you know, it wasn't like you don't have to be metaphorical about it, what does it mean, it meant that Eshane lost her watch on the playground the next day.

• 48:29Joe Rogan?

  Right, right.

• 48:30Speaker 02

  And so

• 48:31Joe Rogan?

  Did you tell your parents?

• 48:32Speaker 02

  Yeah, and they said, my mom, so my, so my, so my very eccentric

• 48:38Speaker 02

  Family would always talk about dreams at the breakfast table. My mom is a therapist and a learning disability specialist. My dad was a physicist. My sister's an artist. And we would all talk about dreams. And so I would, I'd mention this. And my dad, the physicist, says, well, that's a coincidence. And my mom, the therapist, says, you should get a dream journal and write them down. And so I did that. And.

• 49:03Joe Rogan?

  Your dad just dismissed it as a coincidence?

• 49:05Speaker 02

  You know, he, he has come around.

• 49:08Joe Rogan?

  That's a very specific coincidence.

• 49:10Speaker 02

  It's three, three factors. And I always like to say, if you have two or more factors, it's likely precognizant.

• 49:16Joe Rogan?

  But just the one. Lost the watch. And then she loses her watch.

• 49:19Speaker 02

  But she did just get her watch. She, we were seven years old. She got her watch from her father. You know, I could, you could predict that of someone who's good at figuring out what kids do is that they might lose the watch. Right? So that could be a coincidence. You have to think about all the possible things that could happen to a seven year old and the watch that they just got. Losing it is up there.

• 49:37Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, but you thought about it the day before she lost it.

• 49:39Speaker 02

  I dreamt it the day before she lost it.

• 49:41Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 49:42Speaker 02

  Yeah. So he did dismiss it as a coincidence, but we also had ball lightning and like weird orbs in our house. And he also dismissed that as not actually having happened.

• 49:51Joe Rogan?

  Wait, you had ball lightning in your house?

• 49:53Speaker 02

  Yeah, we were in this old farmhouse in Libertyville, Illinois, where I grew up. And we lived with my grandparents there. And, and ball lightning came inside the house and my mother stood up for it. My mother said, Ed, my, my dad's name, you know, didn't she see that lightning zipping around the house last night? Lightning. And my dad said, that couldn't have happened.

• 50:19Joe Rogan?

  Did he see it?

• 50:20Speaker 02

  Of course he saw it.

• 50:21Joe Rogan?

  But he just wanted to dismiss it?

• 50:22Speaker 02

  But he didn't have an explanation for it.

• 50:24Joe Rogan?

  What does your dad do?

• 50:25Speaker 02

  He was a theoretical physicist when, for his dissertation, he was at University of Chicago. He, he discovered or, or, or showed somehow the electron layer on the moon, that there's this like atmosphere of electrons on the moon. And um.

• 50:37Joe Rogan?

  How could he say that that couldn't happen?

• 50:40Speaker 02

  So the one of the reasons, so people are so complex with the reasons they go into particular fields. My experience with physicists, my dad included, is they tend to go into this field of physics because the whole job of physics is to simplify everything into a few equations. Right? Let's like, there's the funny, there's the, I don't know if it's funny, but there's the standard physics joke of like, alright, let's figure out the volume of a cow. You know, let's, let's just estimate it, it's a sphere. You know? And so it's like, you cut off the legs and the, and the head and the tail, and all of a sudden you're just calculating a sphere, which doesn't give you the volume of the cow. And so I think there's a desire to simplify everything, and I think there's a desire to control things.

• 51:24Speaker 02

  And many, many, many physicists have OCD and have control issues. My dad had severe, severe OCD. And so in his, in his mind, it couldn't have happened because it would, all those circuits would fry. Cause he didn't know how to explain it. And my mother just stood up for it and said, well, it did happen and you saw it and I saw it. And it hit the edge of my room and then went out and there was still like the brown mark where it was burned in the corner of the room. So like, we had plenty of evidence.

• 51:56Speaker 02

  So there was stuff going on and there was a, there was this push-pull with my mom who just believed in the primacy, I guess, of, or the importance of experience, like we saw it. And the pull from my dad who believed in, if you didn't understand, if you didn't have a theory for something, it couldn't exist. And so I was living in that. So what I did was, I kept a dream journal, sort of the rest of my life, I still write every morning my dreams, and started to notice that I was really good at precognitive dreaming. And it would happen again and again and again. And I would have experience, we can get into later, the weird school stuff, but experiences

• 52:41Speaker 02

  at school that reminded me that I had this capacity. And um.

• 52:47Speaker 02

  Then I hid it from myself when I realized I wanted to go to graduate school and actually be a scientist. So, by which I mean, I just sort of said, "Well, all of that stuff's crap," even though I was still having those experiences. I had to kind of split off. This is a thing that you have to do if you think, "Okay, I have to ride the academic train," right? And the academic train says, like, "I'm gonna do hard science. I'm gonna go to the best neuroscience school. I'm gonna..."

• 53:13Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 53:14Speaker 02

  And then, by the time I was in my late twenties, and I was in my second graduate school, getting my PhD at Northwestern, I started to remember. And the reason I started, and it's not like I had really forgotten, but it's like it just wasn't allowed to be real. I started to study timing in the auditory system, because I was into understanding how the auditory system managed things in time. And then I started to ask myself, "Why am I so interested in time? Why am I so interested in the nature of time and how it works?" And then, boom, "Oh, right, because I keep having these precognitive dreams. There's obviously something we don't understand about how time works, because these are so consistent and clear."

• 53:56Speaker 02

  And at that point, you know, I knew that was happening, because I knew I wasn't making it up. I could look at my journal and I could see it. So that's when I started saying, "All right, you know, I'm old enough to choose my own path, and I'm gonna start asking these questions."

• 54:10Joe Rogan?

  And when you started asking them and trying to apply it in, using the scientific method, how did you first attempt to do that?

• 54:20Speaker 02

  Well, I called, I was, I'm kind of fearless when it comes to cold-calling people, especially scientists, because very few people call scientists. So I called up Dean Radin. I had read some of his work from the Institute of Neuropsych Sciences. I called him up and I said, "Hi, my name's Julia, and I was thinking of going into this field, and I think precognition is real." And he was like, "Oh, okay." And I remember where I was sitting when I called him. And he said, "The thing you have to do is get your PhD in a field that is not this. So finish your PhD, and then, as a postdoc, start to investigate it." So I did. I finished my PhD while I was studying all this other stuff and understanding the field.

• 55:05Speaker 02

  And then, as soon as I got into my postdoc years, I found a sympathetic advisor at Northwestern in the cognitive neuroscience program. And...

• 55:15Speaker 02

  And just said, I want to start studying this stuff. So I, at the same time, I had one foot in more mainstream stuff about timing and the auditory and the visual system. And then the other foot was in this purely, basically psychic stuff, trying to understand it. And I made an experiment. There's a foundation called the Beall Foundation in Portugal, and I wrote, I wrote an application to them, and they funded my postdoc so I could study the sense of being stared at with like closed-circuit TV monitors. And I could study how the skin physiology, you know, skin conductance or sweat changes when, just before you get a response right on a random, like psychic task. And so that, that's kind of precognition or pre-sentiment.

• 56:00Speaker 02

  And then I just pulled from, I got really interested in pre-sentiment because I saw that it was real. And I also saw there was a big gender difference that was fascinating to me, which is that before men got their first trial correct, and this is just a guessing game, so that, you know, it's randomly selected, their skin conductance would go crazy, like they just won the lottery. And when they're, before they didn't get it correct or they were incorrect, it would just kind of like peter along. So they were anticipating at a very high level what the future was going to bring, whether they were going to win or not. Whereas women practically, but not totally, showed the opposite. But their skin, but regardless of what happened, whether it was correct or incorrect, they were much lower than men.

• 56:44Speaker 02

  So men were really excited about the future correct thing. At least their physiology showed that. So I got fascinated by that and pulled together a bunch of, worked with a couple other people at different institutions and pulled together 26 studies over the past, or the prior, I guess, 40 years, that looked at this kind of physiological change that predicts essentially a random future event, and just analyzed it.

• 57:12Joe Rogan?

  Do you have a theory as to why men have that response and women don't?

• 57:17Speaker 02

  You know, I kind of think it's cultural. You were talking about the importance of winning. And I think...

• 57:27Speaker 02

  I mean, we know that gambling addicts are twice as likely, maybe three times as likely to be men as women.

• 57:33Joe Rogan?

  Hmm, really?

• 57:34Speaker 02

  Yeah. And the importance of winning, I don't know if it's biological or cultural, but in any case, the importance of being alpha, or the importance of winning, I think, it's a big deal. It's a big deal to the, to men.

• 57:50Joe Rogan?

  Do you think that goes back to tribal war?

• 57:53Speaker 02

  I think it goes, like, back to, like, chimpanzees.

• 57:57Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, which do tribal war.

• 57:59Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 58:00Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, I mean, it kind of makes sense that the importance in winning is literally survival or death.

• 58:05Speaker 02

  You will get kicked out of your little chimpanzee colony.

• 58:07Joe Rogan?

  Not only that, the ability to predict things that are going to happen would probably keep you alive.

• 58:13Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 58:14Joe Rogan?

  Like, if you were running into an ambush, and you're like, I don't like this, or something is wrong, something's off, or now's the time to go, like, I feel it.

• 58:23Speaker 02

  Mm-hmm.

• 58:24Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 58:25Speaker 02

  Yeah, so those combined. But, you know, there's other tasks that aren't about winning, that are just about, is, you know, are you gonna see a picture that's scary versus a picture that's neutral, where women and men both show the effect. But in this particular task, it was just, like, very clear. And then I replicated it in heartbeat. So that first one was in skin conductance, and then I looked at heart rhythms. And I replicated that same thing, where men are like, oh, yeah, here we go. And women are like, da, da, da, da. It doesn't, if something doesn't matter so much to you in the future, I don't think it matters so much to you in anticipating it.

• 58:59Joe Rogan?

  Hmm. Now, here's the question about this stuff. Do you think that this is an emerging phenomenon in human consciousness? Or do you think it's something that has atrophied, that was available before language? So...

• 59:16Speaker 02

  Well, it's very clearly available, I mean, before language.

• 59:19Joe Rogan?

  Okay, that's what I think. I've been thinking that a lot lately. And one of the things that I've been thinking is... One of the things that we've noticed, like I think phones and the internet and the computers are an amazing thing. You can acquire so much information, you can learn about things, you can encounter new people. There's so much stuff that's great about the internet. The bad thing is, a lot of people have a much shorter attention span now because of social media. And then, now they're demonstrating that through use of large language models, a lot of people are actually getting dumber.

• 59:54Speaker 02

  Yes, I've noticed it already.

• 59:56Joe Rogan?

  Yeah. Well, it's, they've studied it, and they, especially children, they're, they're actually less capable of solving problems themselves, because they always turn to a computer and have the computer solve a problem. And, the more I think about that, the more I look at that, I go, well, what is language? Language is a technology. And language is a technology that allows you to say things with your mouth, and I know what you're thinking. Maybe before that existed, we had an understanding of what we were thinking. You know, maybe there's like, some sort of a weird psychic connection, that we all believe that people have with each other, in some way or form. And some of it's, you could demonstrate, some of it, you know?

• 1:00:39Joe Rogan?

  But, most of it is just intuition and feeling. And I always wonder, like, is this atrophied? Like, before we could talk, when we were just these bipedal hominids with, you know, larger brains than all the other mammals, and these weird abilities to be curious and figure out things and develop tools, like, what was, what was consciousness like before language? Before written language? You didn't have a word for dog and tree, and like, what was it that was going on in your head? If you don't, like, you think in your head. I think in my head, in a voice.

• 1:01:12Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:01:13Joe Rogan?

  You know, and they say some people don't have an internal voice.

• 1:01:15Speaker 02

  I don't have that.

• 1:01:16Joe Rogan?

  You don't have an internal voice?

• 1:01:17Speaker 02

  I have pictures.

• 1:01:18Joe Rogan?

  Ooh, that's interesting.

• 1:01:19Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:01:20Joe Rogan?

  Really?

• 1:01:21Speaker 02

  Yeah. I sometimes wonder about that, if that's why I can, I can do the remote viewing stuff.

• 1:01:25Joe Rogan?

  Only pictures?

• 1:01:27Speaker 02

  Feelings?

• 1:01:29Joe Rogan?

  Oh, I have a whole dude in my brain.

• 1:01:31Speaker 02

  Yeah, I've heard that most people have that.

• 1:01:33Joe Rogan?

  No, I don't think it's most people.

• 1:01:34Speaker 02

  Really?

• 1:01:35Joe Rogan?

  I think it's kind of, well...

• 1:01:36Speaker 02

  Is it your voice, like?

• 1:01:38Joe Rogan?

  Oh, it's not me, no. I mean, it might be me. No, no, no, no.

• 1:01:42Speaker 02

  Is it a guy?

• 1:01:43Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, it's like a general.

• 1:01:45Speaker 02

  Oh.

• 1:01:46Joe Rogan?

  It's like someone's going, "Shut the fuck up, like, go to work, do this, what are you talking about? Why are you being such a bitch?"

• 1:01:52Speaker 02

  So he's kind of a jerk?

• 1:01:53Joe Rogan?

  No, no, no, no, no, he's right, always.

• 1:01:57Joe Rogan?

  My inner voice is never wrong. My inner self-correcting voice is always correct. It's always right. It's always like, it's, uh... I mean, if you wanted to get really crazy, you would say it's like a guardian angel in your brain that's staring you, steering you in the right direction. But if I've done something wrong in my life, made a mistake in my life, said something I shouldn't have said, that voice berates me.

• 1:02:23Speaker 02

  Wow, so that seems hard.

• 1:02:24Joe Rogan?

  No, it's good, it's great.

• 1:02:26Speaker 02

  I mean, like...

• 1:02:26Joe Rogan?

  No, you gotta get over it.

• 1:02:28Speaker 02

  Well, but isn't there...

• 1:02:29Joe Rogan?

  But that's how you learn.

• 1:02:30Speaker 02

  Well, I mean, let's talk about that.

• 1:02:34Joe Rogan?

  Okay.

• 1:02:36Speaker 02

  Because when people go through hard things, one way to learn is like berating.

• 1:02:40Joe Rogan?

  Uh-huh.

• 1:02:42Speaker 02

  But that's kind of like not as sustainable as forgiving yourself and deciding that you can, figuring out how you can do better. I mean, is berating really the best?

• 1:02:52Joe Rogan?

  I think you have to feel pain from mistakes.

• 1:02:55Speaker 02

  But don't you already feel the pain?

• 1:02:57Joe Rogan?

  No, you gotta really feel it.

• 1:02:59Speaker 02

  Do you feel like the only way?

• 1:03:00Joe Rogan?

  I don't like making mistakes twice. And the best way to not make a mistake twice is have the first one suck so bad that you never want to go through that again.

• 1:03:07Speaker 02

  For sure.

• 1:03:08Joe Rogan?

  And if it doesn't really suck, make it suck in your head.

• 1:03:10Speaker 02

  But does it already... Does it? I feel like it already sucks without a guy telling you that it sucks.

• 1:03:16Joe Rogan?

  Well, it's not necess... I mean, I'm kind of exaggerating. It's not just that, but it's like, it's not even like you're... It's not pejoratives, it's not, you know, insults, "You're a fucking loser." It's like, "You fucked up, you did this, you were supposed to do that, you were supposed to get something done, you didn't get it done, you were supposed to do this, but you fucked it up, like, don't fuck it up again, this is what you did wrong, don't do that again."

• 1:03:42Speaker 02

  I get it.

• 1:03:42Joe Rogan?

  "This is what you could have done right."

• 1:03:44Speaker 02

  It's like your conscience.

• 1:03:45Joe Rogan?

  It is like a conscience, but it's very strong. It's very loud.

• 1:03:50Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:03:50Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, and I have to learn how to sometimes ignore it and just calm, otherwise I won't sleep.

• 1:03:56Speaker 02

  Right, it's gonna be too harsh.

• 1:03:58Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, but it doesn't, like, I don't hate myself or anything like that. It's not that. But it's just like, honest.

• 1:04:05Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:04:05Joe Rogan?

  It's just an honest assessment of everything that I've ever done, ever. Yeah.

• 1:04:11Speaker 02

  That sounds, that's like instant karma.

• 1:04:13Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, in a way, yeah, but it works. It works. And I think it made me, makes me a better person. I'm better than I would have been if I didn't have that self-correcting mechanism.

• 1:04:24Speaker 02

  There's this poem by this mystic, and I forget her name, but at the end of it, she says, um, "At the end of the day, I always bring to my mind all the people that I was kind to, and then I can fall asleep." And so if you know, that's another way to do it, right? If you know that at the end of the day, you have to look in the face

• 1:04:46Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:04:47Speaker 02

  of all the people that you were kind to, so you can fall asleep, then that kind of makes your day.

• 1:04:52Joe Rogan?

  That, yeah, no, definitely. And I think, I always tell people that being kind and being generous is kind of selfish.

• 1:05:00Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:05:01Joe Rogan?

  Because

• 1:05:01Speaker 02

  Because exactly that.

• 1:05:02Joe Rogan?

  Because you feel better.

• 1:05:03Speaker 02

  Yeah, you do.

• 1:05:03Joe Rogan?

  You feel better about yourself, you feel better about life, you feel better about everything. It's actually a good thing to do, to be kind and generous. And that, that's like, counter, like, you shouldn't think that way. No, you should just be kind and generous. I, I agree. But also, you benefit from it, and I think the more people understand that you benefit, the more people are likely to behave in that way, and it'd be better for everybody.

• 1:05:26Speaker 02

  So, back to the language thing. So this actually, to me, relates to the language thing. If you develop language, um, you are more aware of, of what you're thinking in a certain sense, if you think linguistically. But you also In a way, sort of dampen down, as you say, and I agree with you that there's this, there's a trade off there. You dampen down the sort of instant knowledge of how people around you are feeling.

• 1:05:53Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:05:54Speaker 02

  Like that telepathy thing. So I keep looking at this skull, right? And so what we know, I don't think, but I don't think we've lost it. So you had this idea that we've lost that psychic stuff. I think it's absolutely there, and I think it's neuroscientifically defensible that it's there, but that language actually suppresses it. So

• 1:06:12Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, atrophies it.

• 1:06:14Speaker 02

  It doesn't atrophy it. It's like you can actually use, so, okay, so there's this cool result from this guy in Baycrest, his name's Maurice Freeman, and he's a neurologist there up in Canada, and he noticed in his stroke patients that if they had lesions here, so their stroke kind of messed up this area here, left frontal orbital area of the brain, in the cortex, that they seemed to be more psychic, like he didn't know how to explain it. So he did an actual experiment where he tried to get people to move with their minds an arrow on a computer screen. So there was no mouse, there was no way to

• 1:06:57Speaker 02

  move it. They just had to look at the arrow and say, move to the left, or move to the right, and wish it to happen, and using their intention, right? So the people who had the strokes there were able to do it statistically significantly. People who had the strokes over here were not able to do it.

• 1:07:14Joe Rogan?

  So can I pause you here?

• 1:07:15Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 1:07:16Joe Rogan?

  What was actually moving the cursor?

• 1:07:17Speaker 02

  So he had a random number generator hooked up to the drug.

• 1:07:20Joe Rogan?

  Okay.

• 1:07:21Speaker 02

  So the cursor was kind of like shaking.

• 1:07:22Joe Rogan?

  Mm hmm.

• 1:07:23Speaker 02

  And the random number generator would make it deviate to the left or to the right. So the person was effectively changing the random number generator.

• 1:07:29Joe Rogan?

  How often?

• 1:07:30Speaker 02

  Enough so that it was statistically significant.

• 1:07:33Joe Rogan?

  What is statistically significant?

• 1:07:34Speaker 02

  So what you would do is, sure, you would have a control. So you have the try period where you say to the person, try to move it to the left, try to move it to the right. And then you have the control period where you say, you know, read a book, like you're not trying. And you compare the amount, the distance and the amount of time it's spent in the intended direction to the reading a book time. And if it's, you can, you know, there's statistical tests you can use to determine whether it was spending time in the intended direction more often when it was intended.

• 1:08:04Joe Rogan?

  But how much more often?

• 1:08:08Speaker 02

  A number that's statistically significant. So I guess, so it's like, imagine-

• 1:08:11Joe Rogan?

  Like 5%, 10%?

• 1:08:13Speaker 02

  Oh, I forget what the actual quantitative number-

• 1:08:15Joe Rogan?

  But that would be interesting to know-

• 1:08:17Speaker 02

  I totally would. I just forget.

• 1:08:18Joe Rogan?

  And whether or not it would change with different humans.

• 1:08:21Speaker 02

  I, I agree. But then he, then he replicated it. Instead of looking at stroke patients, he looked at, uh, used, uh, transcranial magnetic stimulation, which turns down activity. So he put that over here. So he's putting that over the left area.

• 1:08:36Joe Rogan?

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:08:36Speaker 02

  And to turn that down. And again, there were people, these are not people who've had strokes, just regular people, you and I, they were able to do this with their minds. So it's just sitting there. What was, his explanation is that the front, um, uh, left orbital frontal area is, we know that it inhibits the right, uh, frontal area, and we know that the right orbital frontal inhibits the left. And his explanation is this stuff is going on in the right hemisphere, or at least is dominated by that. And, um, when you suppress it, it, you're not as psychic, and when you release the suppression, you are more psychic. And it's just right under the surface. It's right there. And so, when

• 1:09:18Speaker 02

  I, when I work with non-speaking autistic kids, it's, um, it feels to me like that's a pretty good explanation of what's going on. They're not activating this part as much. I, I, not that I've proven this, I'm, this is a hypothesis. And, and, and it's not, I'm not the only one with a hypothesis, but they're not activating this part as much. We know that because this is where speech is, over here, right? These areas, uh, in the left. And so therefore, this area can be a little bit more free. So the psychic stuff is coming out.

• 1:09:49Joe Rogan?

  Huh. Well, that's one of the weird things that they've demonstrated about certain psychedelics like psilocybin. You would think that it just like turns on your mind and all the synapses are firing. No.

• 1:10:00Speaker 02

  Dampens.

• 1:10:01Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:10:02Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:10:02Joe Rogan?

  Which is very weird.

• 1:10:04Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:10:04Joe Rogan?

  Because it makes you think, like, what are we doing with the mind?

• 1:10:07Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:10:07Joe Rogan?

  Or the brain, I should say, not the mind.

• 1:10:09Speaker 02

  Well, and the brain is related to the mind-

• 1:10:11Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:10:12Speaker 02

  -in ways we don't understand. And then it's sometimes not related to the mind, right? Like in the psilocybin results. You're having all these experiences, but the brain is dampened.

• 1:10:20Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:10:21Speaker 02

  What's going on? And there's the filter theory of consciousness says, well, consciousness is kind of like out there, almost like a radio signal, and your brain's kind of filtering

• 1:10:30Joe Rogan?

  it. Yes.

• 1:10:31Speaker 02

  So that then you have this simple like, oh, pick up the cup and say the words and, you know, you can kind of live your life without realizing that person over there is having this experience and that's going on. And then in the future, this will happen. So that makes sense to me that it's like our conscious minds in order to just deal with daily life have to be kind of stupid.

• 1:10:51Joe Rogan?

  Hmm.

• 1:10:52Speaker 02

  And then.

• 1:10:53Joe Rogan?

  Right, because otherwise you'd be overwhelmed by all the data and possibilities.

• 1:10:57Speaker 02

  It's so much.

• 1:10:58Joe Rogan?

  You're in the universe and.

• 1:10:59Speaker 02

  It's so much data.

• 1:11:00Joe Rogan?

  Multi-cellular creatures all around you and subatomic particles.

• 1:11:04Speaker 02

  Well, yeah. And then, and that's, and when we're working with, I work with a whole team that works with non-speaking autistic kids like in telepathy tapes. And when we're working with them, like they get distracted by that stuff. Like they'll say, like, you know, I'm distracted. When I say say, I mean, they're, you know, typing on a letterboard or a keyboard. You know, there's spirits in the room or, you know, I'm, I'm thinking about what you did earlier today that I didn't know about, but I do know about because I'm telepathic, you know? And so it's like a lot of information that makes it pretty hard to be in the here and now.

• 1:11:36Joe Rogan?

  Has, have any of those non-verbal autistic kids ever wrote something down where they couldn't possibly have known it?

• 1:11:44Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:11:45Joe Rogan?

  Like what?

• 1:11:46Speaker 02

  Oh, I can give you many examples. In fact, um, do you want to, I have a video of that.

• 1:11:50Joe Rogan?

  Oh, sure. Okay.

• 1:11:51Speaker 02

  I have to walk you through the video.

• 1:11:53Joe Rogan?

  Okay.

• 1:11:53Speaker 02

  Yeah. Do you have that over there? I don't know. I gave you like 18 things. Oh, I, you give me a second, sorry. Okay. So the, so let me explain the context.

• 1:12:04Joe Rogan?

  Okay.

• 1:12:05Speaker 02

  So, um, uh, I met my research team partially through people I had already worked with and partially folks who, Kai Dickens, creator of the telepathy tapes, introduced me to.

• 1:12:18Joe Rogan?

  I had her on.

• 1:12:18Speaker 02

  Yeah, I know. It was a great show.

• 1:12:20Joe Rogan?

  Very interesting.

• 1:12:21Speaker 02

  And so I, I wanted to ask that question. Can we use rigorous methods to have folks write down, non-speakers or spellers, whatever we want to call them. I think non-speakers or spellers are preferred. Non-verbal kind of implies that they don't have language at all. But the, the reality is they don't, they may speak, but they don't speak to communicate. They use letterboards or.

• 1:12:43Joe Rogan?

  Got it.

• 1:12:44Speaker 02

  Or keyboards. I wanted to understand, like, they're doing all these tests where they're repeating numbers and letters, and that's interesting, but it doesn't really, to me, I mean, the whole world of testing people for psychic abilities, it's not very interesting. And if we presume that these students are actually pretty smart, it's got to be boring for them. And so I thought, well, let's give them an opportunity to really show their stuff. And so I set up this whole rigorous trial set, and even the non-speakers came on board and actually told us what they would like to see, the stimuli be, we want videos, we want music, we want words in the videos that are sung. I mean, they just told us all these

• 1:13:29Speaker 02

  things that they wanted. And by, again, using the letter boards. And we said, okay, we can do all that, but the catch is, the person who's sending the information is going to be in another room, maybe like 30 yards away with a closed door. And you can work with your communication partner, but she is not going to know what the target is, and she's going to have no idea what the target could be, because she's never going to see any of the target videos that we'll use. And so we were preparing for this, and we were getting our software ready. We were preparing for the formal trials that would be filmed for the documentary. And so we were doing that on Zoom. We weren't yet in person. But

• 1:14:11Speaker 02

  the non-speaker that I'm about to tell you about was with his communication partner, Maria Welch, who's a speech and language pathologist. And he was, you know, getting ready to do the trial. We were explaining it to him. And I was in Virginia. Maria and the student were in Illinois. And then Jeff Tarrant, another co-investigator, another neuroscientist, was in Oregon. And so the person who was going to send the video, in other words, just intend to send the video like in a telepathy experiment, was going to be Jeff. The non-speaker chose Jeff. And then

• 1:14:54Speaker 02

  We did it. We turned off our cameras. We were on Zoom. We turned off our cameras. We turned off our microphones. Jeff sent the video. Maria and the student started, I don't know, intending to receive it. And then the student said he was ready. He spelled that he was ready. And then Maria asked the question that I thought I had put in the Zoom chat for her because we didn't have our software set up. So I had to send her a question in the Zoom chat. And the way we traditionally did it at that time was I asked multiple choice. Is it a this, this, this, or this? But the thing is, by mistake, I sent that to Jeff because I had a private chat with him going. So I didn't realize that she didn't have the questions.

• 1:15:37Speaker 02

  Meanwhile, the student starts to spell on the letterboard. He says, "I'm ready." He says, "It's a beautiful sky." And she had not seen the questions. It was a beautiful sky. Of all the videos in the world that he picked to describe that way, it was a video of the tops of trees and then above them, like northern lights that had been colored by an artist to look even more cool. And then there's like a time lapse. And he said, "It's art of a beautiful sky." And that was a really great description. And statistically, there's almost no way to calculate how statistically likely that is because it could have been any video in the world. And we didn't even give him the multiple choice.

• 1:16:22Speaker 02

  Whoa. Yeah. So actually, that's not the video I'm going to show you. I just realized that I wanted to answer the question more directly. The video I want to show you, if you can find it, is one of what we call a telepathy train, where the students, and this happened more than once, when we were physically in town, in Chicago as a team, where this one student comes in and says something, leaves, and the next student comes in with their mom. And they check in. You know, Maria always asks them, "Would you like to check in?" And then they refer to the thing the last student was talking about. And it happened in a really compelling way in this video because there was also a discussion that the first student who comes in,

• 1:17:07Speaker 02

  which I believe I'm calling participant four, just for anonymity. So participant four comes in and asks, says he wants to go on a double date with participant five and his girlfriend.

• 1:17:18Speaker 02

  And then, and then he says, "Tell his mom." And then when participant five comes in, he says, "Tell my mom I want to go on a double date with participant four and his girlfriend." So they clearly had already discussed this telepathically, because they're not speakers, they're not talking to each other. Their parents haven't talked to each other about this. The parents don't know each other. And so, so that happened. And then they also passed on this, I mean, so this stuff kept happening. They also passed on this idea of slamming a beach ball on the ground in order to identify each of the videos, because they wanted to get the telepathy signals right,

• 1:18:01Speaker 02

  but they were missing them, you know, on the formal trials. So they discussed between themselves, apparently, telepathically. If you slam a beach ball on the ground before we do the trial, then we'll focus on it in time, and we'll go to the right timeline to talk about this is, this is what they write down, to, to get to the video in our minds. And so that's the video that I wanted to show you, if it's here.

• 1:18:23Speaker 06

  Okay.

• 1:18:24Speaker 02

  Because I don't include the double date stuff in it, because it's too private and they say too many names of other students.

• 1:18:30Speaker 06

  The page I have, it says, "Here's a link," but there's no link that I can find unless it's a different link.

• 1:18:35Speaker 02

  Oh, you know what? If you go, go back to what you just saw. And then say, "I worked with my team to get out this response right away." It includes a link to this video as well.

• 1:18:45Speaker 06

  Yeah, I had that open.

• 1:18:46Speaker 02

  Yeah. So that's the, on the enable, right. Then if you go down.

• 1:18:53Speaker 06

  I didn't see a video.

• 1:18:55Speaker 02

  Go up. Go down, you're going too fast here.

• 1:18:59Speaker 06

  Sorry, I'm just going to the top and then...

• 1:19:00Speaker 02

  Yeah, so that's my mom and my other mom. All right, scroll all the way down.

• 1:19:08Speaker 02

  You got it. Keep going. This is all about the science stuff. Okay, now stop right there. Slow down. And then now go a little bit more down.

• 1:19:19Speaker 02

  Oh, no, okay, go up.

• 1:19:22Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:19:23Speaker 06

  Video of the debrief?

• 1:19:24Speaker 02

  You got it.

• 1:19:28Joe Rogan?

  This is it?

• 1:19:29Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:19:29Joe Rogan?

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• 1:20:13Joe Rogan?

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• 1:21:29Speaker 02

  And that's Jeff and me on the right, and that's Maria. Maybe someone else has questions to ask.

• 1:21:34Speaker 05

  I was wondering if that was the best way to present the video so that the timing doesn't become a factor, like, maybe he saw a video at a different time. But how could we make this one stand out, so you know that's the one we're talking about?

• 1:21:49Speaker 02

  Yeah, great, that's kind of what I was gonna ask.

• 1:21:53Speaker 02

  And that's Natalia on the very left.

• 1:22:07Joe Rogan?

  And so he's typing something into a keyboard right now?

• 1:22:10Speaker 02

  He's typing into the keyboard.

• 1:22:12Speaker 07

  Cesslin.

• 1:22:14Speaker 02

  It's got electronic voice. And the electronic voice is hard to hear, so she'll repeat it, and then I also have a little slide that shows what he said.

• 1:22:23Joe Rogan?

  What did the voice say?

• 1:22:25Speaker 02

  Slam.

• 1:22:26Speaker 07

  Slam.

• 1:22:27Joe Rogan?

  Slam.

• 1:22:30Speaker 07

  Hey.

• 1:22:40Speaker 07

  Ball.

• 1:22:43Joe Rogan?

  Slam a ball?

• 1:22:45Speaker 02

  This is where he's giving us this idea. To slam a ball on the ground, to get him to the right timeline in telepathy trials. It was his idea, it never occurred to us.

• 1:22:56Speaker 07

  Before that.

• 1:22:57Speaker 02

  That's before.

• 1:22:59Speaker 05

  Picked up the F, I don't know why. Before.

• 1:23:09Speaker 02

  By the way, Maria has a big crush on you.

• 1:23:14Speaker 02

  She knows you're married, but she told me not to tell you.

• 1:23:19Joe Rogan?

  Tara said thanks.

• 1:23:25Speaker 05

  Okay. Who should, where, or which person would be helpful to do that before the video?

• 1:23:38Joe Rogan?

  Okay, so this is the transcript of it. Slam a ball before sending, that's what he's saying.

• 1:23:43Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:23:43Joe Rogan?

  Natalia says, "Who should do that before the video is sent?"

• 1:23:47Speaker 02

  He says sender.

• 1:23:49Joe Rogan?

  "What kind of ball? Slam a beach ball." "Why would you draw your, why would that draw your attention to this timeline?" He says, "Because I could see and hear it when looking in the future." "Does it matter how many times she slams it?" He says, "Before each video once."

• 1:24:05Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:24:05Joe Rogan?

  So the slamming of the ball allowed him to look into the future, is what he was saying?

• 1:24:10Speaker 02

  He was hoping that would work, because he had just failed a telepathy trial, and he said, "I was on a different timeline." And we said, "So how can we get you on this timeline?" And he said, he made up this idea of slamming a beach ball. And what we found fascinating about it was, you know, that's an original idea that none of us thought about. But then we also found it fascinating because of what you'll see next, which is the next person who comes in, who of course hadn't heard any of this. This is another participant, participant five, and Natalia's...

• 1:24:44Joe Rogan?

  Participant four arrives at participant five, leaves. He has to go on a double date with participant five and his girlfriend. Something participant five asked about participant four already. He also brings up something participant five mentioned about how to make the telepathy work better.

• 1:25:13Joe Rogan?

  What is that voice?

• 1:25:14Speaker 02

  That's him. He, um, he's able to type and do this sort of sing-song talking at the same time.

• 1:25:22Speaker 05

  It would be good to try the beach ball as well.

• 1:25:25Speaker 02

  Now, did you see how Natalia just does that little shrug?

• 1:25:29Joe Rogan?

  It would be good to try the beach ball slam. So now, he didn't hear that other conversation at all? He wasn't in the room?

• 1:25:35Speaker 02

  His mom-

• 1:25:35Joe Rogan?

  Where was he?

• 1:25:36Speaker 02

  So he was at home with his mom. So he came in after we had a 20-minute break between the-

• 1:25:40Joe Rogan?

  So he wasn't anywhere near the building? No, there's no way he could have known?

• 1:25:44Speaker 02

  That's why Natalia gave that shrug, like, see? She and Maria see this all the time, where students will all be talking about the same thing.

• 1:25:54Joe Rogan?

  So he just comes in and says the beach ball slam would be a good idea?

• 1:25:57Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:25:57Joe Rogan?

  So he somehow or another-

• 1:25:59Speaker 02

  It's as if he was in that conversation.

• 1:26:01Joe Rogan?

  Whoa.

• 1:26:01Speaker 02

  Yeah, and this, this is, it is, it is like they are all in the same conversation. And it is so, it's hard to think about what it would be like, but it's becoming more and more clear to me that it would be very difficult to just be in this conversation where the words are coming out of our mouths, if you also are just having all these conversations with other people.

• 1:26:26Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 1:26:26Speaker 02

  I mean, it's like an incredible focus. And so the work that he has to do to type, and then he's also using his sing-song voice, and he's clearly having some kind of conversation in his head. It's incredible focus that they're actually having to do, and many of them have dyspraxia, so their bodies, it's hard for them to control their bodies, which is part of the speech issue. And so, I just think they're all gifted, I mean, at this point.

• 1:26:52Joe Rogan?

  Right. Well, there's that thing that they kept talking about in the telepathy tapes where they all meet-

• 1:26:58Speaker 02

  On the hill.

• 1:26:58Joe Rogan?

  Psychically, on the hill, yeah.

• 1:27:00Speaker 02

  Yeah. Yeah, so I had this-

• 1:27:02Joe Rogan?

  And they all talk about it independently? Like, it's not something that has been taught to them? Like, "Do you meet on the hill?" "Oh, yeah, I do." No, they've, they've talked about it independently, which is very weird.

• 1:27:11Speaker 02

  Right, and one way so I-

• 1:27:13Joe Rogan?

  Odd concept.

• 1:27:13Speaker 02

  Well, I, I turn on my scientist hat when I think about that, and I think, "Okay, well, they could have heard it on the telepathy tapes, and then they started talking about it." But that's not how it seemed to have worked.

• 1:27:25Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 1:27:25Speaker 02

  But I, I have my own experience of that particular student. I forget whether I called him participant four or participant five at the end. He and I became, I had a good understanding of his mind, and we had some good conversations. And I had a dream one night where-

• 1:27:43Speaker 02

  He came to me and all he did was show me this like, it was like a, it was like a sun where you could see the sunspots and it was just slowly turning and it was beautiful and he just gave it to me. And then the next day I was working with him over Zoom and so I asked Maria, I said, can I ask him a question? You know, and she said, sure. And I said, you know, last night you gave me something, you gave me a shape. What was the shape? Because I didn't, I hadn't told Maria about the dream or anyone else. It was just my dream that I wrote in my journal. And I was thinking he would say ball or sphere and that would either be a good guess or it would be telepathy. But he goes, I can't, I still can't get over

• 1:28:26Speaker 02

  this. I sent you a pre-revolutionary orb with four stars on it slowly rotating.

• 1:28:38Joe Rogan?

  What is a pre-revolutionary orb?

• 1:28:40Speaker 02

  I don't fucking know, but I don't know.

• 1:28:42Joe Rogan?

  With four stars on it?

• 1:28:44Speaker 02

  With four stars on it slowly rotating.

• 1:28:46Joe Rogan?

  But that's not exactly what you saw in the dream.

• 1:28:48Speaker 02

  Well, there were these sunspots. So see, he's, see, there's a poetic license that they have. I, I would say that's 80% correct. So it was slowly rotating and there were these sunspots that I were calling, I was calling sunspots, he was calling stars. And it was definitely an orb. What does pre-revolutionary mean? I don't know. They talk about, and I talk about in my book, The Love Revolution, this idea that we're moving towards a time when we can actually use love in our lives to communicate and to connect people. But maybe that's what he means. And then, so that's one instance. So I sort of go, okay, that was interesting. And it kind of blew my mind that he used that language. He's

• 1:29:33Speaker 02

  very, he's just gifted at interesting language. And then this other non-speaker who worked with Natalia, who was the young woman you saw in the last, who also works with a lot of spellers, just decided to start reading my mind, like we did, he started.

• 1:29:52Speaker 02

  I asked Natalia, I said, can we just do an experiment where I'll be doing something? And I'll know what I'm doing at that time. And you just ask one of your students to read my mind. And then no one else will know what I'm doing. And she won't know what I'm doing. And so what I was doing was doing this remote viewing for a friend. And so I knew exactly what I was doing during that time and what I was thinking. But what I was thinking about was, remember that comet, Three Eye Atlas?

• 1:30:18Joe Rogan?

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:30:19Speaker 02

  So I was thinking, I was kind of obsessively thinking about Three Eye Atlas. Like, what is it? What's the deal? You know? It was during that exact time.

• 1:30:25Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 1:30:25Speaker 02

  In December last year. And he comes back with some stuff I don't understand. Like poetic license, I call it poetic license, or just it's wrong, that I don't understand where it came from. And then he says, oh, and Three Eye Atlas. And he talks about this owl that I saw in a video when I was doing the remote viewing. And I was like, so Natalia didn't even know what Three Eye Atlas was. She had to look it up. And the parent didn't know what Three Eye Atlas was. And he spelled it Three-E-Y-E Atlas.

• 1:30:57Joe Rogan?

  Ah, wow.

• 1:30:59Speaker 02

  So it was phonetic. Yeah. And then later, a couple of weeks ago, I get a text from Natalia that the same student, who apparently has now felt perfectly fine reading my mind, tapped into my mind when I was thinking about a medication that my stepmom was taking. And he used her name, which Natalia didn't know, and told me that she would be okay on the medication that would help her. And then told Natalia to text me, and so she did.

• 1:31:25Joe Rogan?

  The Three Eye Atlas in writing it as E-Y-E is very strange.

• 1:31:31Speaker 02

  Well, and that's-

• 1:31:32Joe Rogan?

  That's hard, that's, because that's not how it's written anywhere.

• 1:31:35Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:31:36Joe Rogan?

  Right? So the fact that he wrote it I-E-Y-E means he was hearing you.

• 1:31:40Speaker 02

  It's how, it's how you would hear it.

• 1:31:42Joe Rogan?

  What the hell?

• 1:31:43Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:31:44Joe Rogan?

  How weird.

• 1:31:44Speaker 02

  So there's no way I can explain. Also, he came up with my son's name, which Natalia didn't know. So that could have been from her. But still, he read her mind.

• 1:31:52Joe Rogan?

  Did you ask him more about this pre-revolutionary orb with four stars? Did you, like, why did you give me that? What does that mean?

• 1:32:00Speaker 02

  I wish I did. One thing I know with this particular participant is that he's so gifted. And his family asks him a lot, like, about- To do mediumship stuff, like, what does grandpa think about this, or whatever? And in fact-

• 1:32:15Joe Rogan?

  Grandpa's dead?

• 1:32:16Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, and to him, there's not a lot of difference. And so, and so, yeah. And, and they also, like, the grandmother had a, had a lung transplant, and they asked who the donor was, and he identified a probable donor who lived in the area who had died that day. They, they won't know for a year if it was the actual donor, because it takes time to learn who the donor is, but they're pretty sure that it probably is. But, so-

• 1:32:43Joe Rogan?

  Boy, if they, if it turns out that he's right, and you can't find out for another year-

• 1:32:48Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:32:49Joe Rogan?

  Or they won't release the information-

• 1:32:50Speaker 02

  Well, you know, yeah, my husband had a double lung transplant. It just takes a while. Everyone has to agree that they want to release the information. But, um, in any case, he's just really good at this, like, he's very skilled. And I didn't want him to feel like he was a show pony, and I wanted to get on with his lesson. And so I didn't want to ask other questions. I feel like, hmm, you know, he'll probably just show up in my dream and tell me at some point.

• 1:33:14Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, but do you think that he even would think of himself as a show pony? Like, wouldn't it just be communication?

• 1:33:21Speaker 02

  He doesn't, but I didn't, also, I wanted, like, I feel like-

• 1:33:25Joe Rogan?

  I would want to know. Why'd you give me a son?

• 1:33:27Speaker 02

  Of course, I wanted to know, but also I was-

• 1:33:29Joe Rogan?

  What's pre-revolutionary? What do you mean?

• 1:33:31Speaker 02

  I, I agree. I mean, he, he's the kid who, I mean, there, there are some, we work with six kids, they're all gifted and amazing, but he's one that showed up in telepathy tape, says, do you remember, I don't know if you remember this story, it's so wonderful. His teacher said Maria, what she does is, like, they'll read a paragraph about a topic, and then he'll ask, you know, the students, like, okay, let's, you know, talk about the topic, just like in school, but he has to spell out his answers. And so I think the topic was, um, like, Gothic art. And so, um, excuse me, I'm gonna have a drink of water. So the topic of the paragraph was Gothic art, and she says, so, you know, what was the purpose of Gothic art?

• 1:34:16Speaker 02

  And he said, oh, it, it aphorizes the masses. And she says, I don't think that's a word. And then she thinks, well, I better look it up, because he says it's a word. And so she looked it up, and it was only a word that was used in the 1600s.

• 1:34:36Speaker 02

  And so, and it means like it appeases them. So he wrote out, it means it calmed them down. And, and she said, well, how do you know about the word? It's, it was only used in the 1600s, he said, or the 1400s or something. And he writes out, oh, I was talking with a magistrate from that time period. So like, what, you know, what do you do with that?

• 1:35:03Joe Rogan?

  What do you do with that?

• 1:35:05Speaker 02

  Except for maybe state that there's something going on we don't understand, and it deserves more study, and these students shouldn't be dismissed.

• 1:35:15Joe Rogan?

  Now, is he, I don't know if you've even asked this, but is he communicating with people in a different timeline? Or is he communicating with disembodied souls that no longer live in that timeline, but still contain consciousness?

• 1:35:33Speaker 02

  So my experience of him and several other people who are non-speakers is that there's really not a lot of distinct, like, it's hard for them to know if someone's alive or dead, because they're not spending too much time in the physical, right? They're not spending too much time. We spend all this time in the physical, and that's what seems to be real and important to us. But to them, it's like, when I brought up that someone he mentioned, he said, oh, I was just talking to the JP, who was another non-speaker. And I said, oh, were you sad when JP died? And he said, oh, I didn't know he was dead. Because...

• 1:36:09Joe Rogan?

  Because you were just talking to him.

• 1:36:11Speaker 02

  He was just talking to him. And it does seem to be on this timeline, because there's information that they say, well, again, this is their experience. But their experience is that they get contemporary information. Like JP saw his mother do this, and he's happy that she's doing that, and that happened two years after he died, so.

• 1:36:31Joe Rogan?

  Wow. So JP was relaying information about his mom two years after he died?

• 1:36:40Speaker 02

  He gets around.

• 1:36:47Joe Rogan?

  God, it's so weird.

• 1:36:49Speaker 02

  Oh, and that was, that was the student's, it's so hard not to say his name, but that, that was the student's story about it. But like, as we know from people who study mediumship, like the Windbridge Institute or the Windbridge Research Center and places like that that study mediumship, there's this big argument about their experiences. They're talking to dead people. Are they actually just tapping into some kind of informational substrate that underlies everything? Or are those the same thing?

• 1:37:14Joe Rogan?

  Hmm, right. After a year away, Canelo Alvarez is back in the ring October 31st, facing undefeated Christian Mobily live on The Zone, and DraftKings Sportsbook has you covered for the fight. With DraftKings Sportsbook, your number one sportsbook for live betting, you can stay connected as the action unfolds and makes your picks in real time. Whether you're locked in for the main event or watching the full card with friends, DraftKings Sportsbook gives you another way to follow the fights you already care about. Download the DraftKings Sportsbook app and use the code ROGEN. New DraftKings Sportsbook customers can spend five and get 200 in total bonuses within 21 days. That's code ROGEN. In partnership with DraftKings, the crown is yours.

• 1:37:58Joe Rogan?

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• 1:38:39Joe Rogan?

  them, but traded the glory of the gridiron for the brutal reality of combat, where the stakes were life and death. Directed by Peter Berg, the guy behind Friday Night Lights, and starring Nicholas Galatzin, Bill Skarsgård, Ray Nicholson, and Tom Francis. The Mosquito Bowl, in theaters October 30th. Yeah. Right. So we, we're trying to differentiate so we could exist in this consciousness, in this form, in this reality. And we think that this is it. This is it. This lockdown, this is the box. And it's not.

• 1:39:14Speaker 02

  It's apparently, it looks like it's not.

• 1:39:18Joe Rogan?

  It seems like it's not to them. So then the question is, what is it about being non-speaking? That allows them to have access to this?

• 1:39:28Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:39:29Joe Rogan?

  Is it? You know, is it like one of those things where, you know, people that can't see, apparently they can hear much better?

• 1:39:37Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:39:37Joe Rogan?

  You hear about that?

• 1:39:38Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, sure, sure. Um, you know, there was this cool article recently came out in the New York Times about these singing mice. So Cold Spring Harbor researchers are studying these mice that sing at a frequency that we can hear, humans can hear. All mice vocalize at ultrasonic frequencies. Uh, but when they're close to each other, but when they're far away from each other, these singing mice will do this. Singing, and I guess they call it singing because it sounds like singing to us. It's really communication, of course. But they wait, they take turns. You know, I'll sing and then you sing, I'll sing and then you sing, just like you would in a conversation.

• 1:40:18Speaker 02

  And they looked at what the difference was between regular laboratory mice who don't do this and these singing mice. Because they were thinking, these ones have speech and these ones just do this other thing. And there was very little difference. They saw like some more fibers, but that's it.

• 1:40:33Joe Rogan?

  So when you say singing mice, what do they do?

• 1:40:36Speaker 02

  Like.

• 1:40:37Joe Rogan?

  Jamie, Jamie.

• 1:40:37Speaker 02

  Okay, play this.

• 1:40:39Joe Rogan?

  Here we go.

• 1:40:43Joe Rogan?

  I don't hear anything.

• 1:40:48Joe Rogan?

  Do you hear it? Yeah, you want to hear that chirping? You need that chirping, watch the, with the, with the audio wave here, it'll pop up here.

• 1:40:55Speaker 02

  Look at the spectrum on the wall.

• 1:40:57Joe Rogan?

  It's like it starts right at the four second mark. That. God, I barely hear that. I need to turn my thing up. I'll try to get. Oh, oh, my thing's really low. Oh, yeah, now I hear it. Okay, that's a, okay, my, my volume's really low. That's what I mean. So that's singing mice, they just make a little chirp chirp.

• 1:41:20Speaker 02

  Yeah, and so the reason I'm bringing that up is because if we can understand what gives mice the capacity to have this kind of communication and other, other mice the capacity that, that they don't have it, maybe we can understand non-speaking autism versus, you know, sort of speaking autism or people who can, are neurotypical. But it turns out that the difference just is in degree. In other words, just a few more fiber tracks. And so, that's why I keep saying, I don't think it's about something that's atrophied. It's just like a slight difference allows us to speak. Most people have that ability to speak. People who don't are, I think, very much like that. You get to be in contact with this information that is generally sorted out if you're using

• 1:42:05Speaker 02

  language more actively.

• 1:42:07Joe Rogan?

  Hmm.

• 1:42:08Speaker 02

  Like, you're, like, I almost think that, that babies are probably telepathic. I think that, I'm wondering if that's how we learn language. I keep thinking, like, we have so few exposures compared to an LLM. We have very few exposures of, like, you know, death whistle. Like, how many times do you hear that before you have to learn it? If you're a baby, I have to, like, know that when you say apple, you're talking about the thing in your hand and not the 8,000 other things that are going on.

• 1:42:35Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 1:42:35Speaker 02

  And I don't hear it that many times before I get that that's what an apple is.

• 1:42:38Joe Rogan?

  Can you imagine if you could just go back and be a baby again before you learned language? Just to, just like, just to exist and understand what thinking is like?

• 1:42:49Speaker 02

  Well, I think, and then you wouldn't be able to understand it, because everything would be like William James said, like, blooming, buzzing confusion.

• 1:42:54Joe Rogan?

  Right, but it would probably be, if you could just, I mean, if, if you could access that memory to a time where you didn't understand language, but could you even do that?

• 1:43:04Speaker 02

  I don't know.

• 1:43:05Joe Rogan?

  The thing is, like, the problem is, you're, you already understand language, so how would you even be able to access?

• 1:43:09Speaker 02

  It's like those movie fantasies where you go back in time and you have all the wisdom you have now, but you get to experience being a kid again.

• 1:43:15Joe Rogan?

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:43:15Speaker 02

  Like, that's the fantasy. That would be amazing.

• 1:43:17Joe Rogan?

  That's a coward's dream.

• 1:43:20Speaker 02

  But isn't it nice sometimes to be a coward?

• 1:43:22Joe Rogan?

  No.

• 1:43:23Speaker 02

  No.

• 1:43:23Joe Rogan?

  That's a coward's dream. Because it's like, no one wants to make the mistakes that they made in high school. Boy, if I could go back now, I'd be the king of the school. Like,

• 1:43:32Joe Rogan?

  no, you'd be a cheater. You'd be playing video games on god mode.

• 1:43:35Speaker 02

  I mean, that's how I made it through trauma as a, as a kid. That's how I made it through abuse. I mean, like, that time travel therapy is a thing.

• 1:43:44Joe Rogan?

  So going back and like reliving your life as an adult who knows better and has information.

• 1:43:50Speaker 02

  It really helps people.

• 1:43:51Joe Rogan?

  Interesting.

• 1:43:52Speaker 02

  Because you can love yourself from the future.

• 1:43:54Joe Rogan?

  I think you're talking about a different thing, right? You're talking about abuse and getting over abuse. What I'm talking about is just general sucking at life. Like, boy, if I could go back and do it again, I'd be so much better.

• 1:44:06Speaker 02

  Oh, I understand. That's different. Now, this isn't going back and doing it again. This is almost like the opposite. This is like, you're still there, back experiencing it, making the bad choice or abuse or whatever it is. But then your wiser self, who's survived and gets that it was a bad choice or who gets that it was abusive, you go back in time mentally and you see yourself. So you're still there doing it, but you're like a second character is introduced?

• 1:44:29Joe Rogan?

  Yes.

• 1:44:30Speaker 02

  In the timeline. You see yourself and you go, you know what? You're gonna learn from this. Things are gonna get better. You are loved. It's gonna be okay. And that works regardless of whether it's a bad choice or whether it's abuse. It's like, you're doing the best you can, no matter what.

• 1:44:48Joe Rogan?

  Right. That, that seems to make sense. Like, you're a human being that understands language back then. If you go back to being a baby.

• 1:44:57Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:44:58Joe Rogan?

  Then you don't know language, but then people would be talking. So what would you hear? What would the sound?

• 1:45:03Speaker 02

  I think you'd feel things telepathically.

• 1:45:06Joe Rogan?

  Right. You would probably feel their intention or feel where they're coming from.

• 1:45:09Speaker 02

  Feel their vibes. It's like you know, like, you know how babies and even dogs will like, someone will give off vibes and they'll just be like, meh, nope.

• 1:45:16Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:45:17Speaker 02

  You know?

• 1:45:17Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 1:45:18Speaker 02

  I think it's like that.

• 1:45:19Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, dogs are really good at that. Some dogs, not my dog. I have a golden retriever. Everybody's the best.

• 1:45:24Speaker 02

  Everyone's awesome.

• 1:45:25Joe Rogan?

  Everybody's amazing.

• 1:45:26Speaker 02

  Oh, no wonder you can have like a general in your brain. You have a golden retriever who will love you forever.

• 1:45:31Joe Rogan?

  Oh, he's the best. He loves, everybody's his best friend. Like, if he was in the room, he would just go from you, get pet by you, go over to Jamie, get pet by Jamie, come over to me.

• 1:45:39Speaker 02

  Oh.

• 1:45:40Joe Rogan?

  He would just make the rounds.

• 1:45:41Speaker 02

  You should bring him.

• 1:45:42Joe Rogan?

  I do sometimes. He's on the floor. It's a carpet.

• 1:45:44Speaker 02

  Oh.

• 1:45:45Joe Rogan?

  See right there? That's Marshall.

• 1:45:47Speaker 02

  Oh, he's wonderful. Golden retrievers are the best emotional support animals.

• 1:45:52Joe Rogan?

  Oh, they're so sweet.

• 1:45:52Speaker 02

  They just love people.

• 1:45:53Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, they love everybody. Yeah, I have a little dog too, a little King Charles Cavalier Spaniel.

• 1:45:59Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:45:59Joe Rogan?

  And all he does is like attack Marshall, like bite his face. And Marshall's so tolerant. He just lays there. This dog's licking his ear, licking his eyeballs, licking his face, and just kissing him and biting him. And he just never gets upset, never growls, never, never says, get off me, just deals with it.

• 1:46:18Speaker 02

  I love that.

• 1:46:19Joe Rogan?

  Oh, he's the sweetest.

• 1:46:20Speaker 02

  Yeah, I want a dog.

• 1:46:21Joe Rogan?

  They're the best.

• 1:46:22Speaker 02

  I know.

• 1:46:23Joe Rogan?

  I love them. I had a weird dream about my little dog. My little dog was so little that I could hold him in my hand. He's not that little. He's pretty little, he's like that big. But he was so little that I could hold him in my hand, and he was running into traffic. And so I had to run into traffic and risk dying to grab this dog and pick him up and hold on to him and somehow or another not get hit by a car.

• 1:46:44Speaker 02

  Oh, wow.

• 1:46:45Joe Rogan?

  It was a very strange dream.

• 1:46:46Speaker 02

  Was this recent?

• 1:46:47Joe Rogan?

  Mm-hmm, yeah.

• 1:46:48Speaker 02

  Wow.

• 1:46:49Joe Rogan?

  Hey, but he didn't even look like him. He looked like a chihuahua, but I knew it was Charlie.

• 1:46:53Speaker 02

  Huh. Isn't that funny how in dreams you just know it's someone, even it could be someone else?

• 1:46:57Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, I knew it was Charlie, but it didn't look like Charlie, because he was so tiny. He was like a mouse. Like, literally, I was holding him in my hand like a, like a little baby mouse.

• 1:47:05Speaker 02

  You know, that reminds me of that, that dream quality of, of someone being someone, like having the essence of them, but not looking like them.

• 1:47:13Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:47:13Speaker 02

  Reminds me also of something I've noticed in the non-speakers, where they're not very good at labeling animals. Like, like, like camels and kangaroos might be the same. And it's like, it's like the physical form.

• 1:47:27Joe Rogan?

  Is not what's important.

• 1:47:28Speaker 02

  It's just not what's important.

• 1:47:29Joe Rogan?

  It's the essence.

• 1:47:30Speaker 02

  It's like the feeling.

• 1:47:31Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:47:31Speaker 02

  On the inside. It's, to me, it's like proof of a soul or something. I don't, I really think we ought to start studying souls scientifically, because if we can show that... And this is, I didn't think we were gonna talk about this, but, ah, wow, I'm sure that happens a lot, but, but if we could start understanding what a soul is.

• 1:47:52Joe Rogan?

  Right, how would you quantify it?

• 1:47:53Speaker 02

  Yeah, I don't know, right, I mean, I think, I think.

• 1:47:56Joe Rogan?

  Maybe it's one of those things that you just can't.

• 1:47:58Speaker 02

  Maybe.

• 1:47:59Joe Rogan?

  You can't study.

• 1:48:00Speaker 02

  But if you understand, I guess, I'm always coming back to the informational substrate, because that's like, my favorite concept, but if you understand that underneath, if this is true, I sort of think this is true, that underneath all of what we call physical reality, so spacetime, matter, energy, is this informational substrate that it's almost, like, has all the information from the beginning of the universe to the end of the universe, like, all of it, including like, what you're thinking, feeling, et cetera, at this moment, or other moments, and if you could, I guess, insert information into it and read information

• 1:48:39Speaker 02

  from it, then I think, maybe that means you're, have a soul, maybe that's what a soul is, is that which, you know, inserts information into that informational substrate, so you change things in the world, and reads things from it, you perceive things in the world, and maybe if you can do both of those things, it means that's what a soul is?

• 1:49:05Joe Rogan?

  What makes you think that there's an informational substrate that contains all the information from the beginning of time to the end of time?

• 1:49:13Speaker 02

  Yes, very good question, um, it's just a feeling I have.

• 1:49:19Joe Rogan?

  I'm not saying you're wrong.

• 1:49:23Speaker 02

  I'm not saying I'm wrong either, but I'm not saying I'm right, it's aesthetically pleasing to me to, to, oh, okay, it does seem like people, whether they're non-speakers or people who are particularly gifted at remote viewing or whatever, can go to different times in spacetime, or different places in space, different times in time, and get information that seems like in this physical world, you shouldn't be able to get, right, I mean, that's what I've been studying, and I've shown that that's the case, at a great, at a, at a rate greater than chance, especially if people are in a place of self-transcendence or feeling love, and so, that suggests that there's this sort of link about what we call

• 1:50:09Speaker 02

  God, or love, or universal love, or this ineffable force, I don't know what to call it, universal love, I'll call it. It suggests that there's a link between sort of what happens in the universe, and what we experience, and what we do, and what we intend, and this universal love force. So I wanna, as a scientist, I'm like, how do you make a physics of love? So I wanna think about it as something that I can think of, as what I could do physics or math on. And that would, the way that comes out is like this informational soup or something that has all that information there, and then it is, we play with it throughout our lives.

• 1:50:53Joe Rogan?

  Right, but how would it have all the information from now to the end?

• 1:50:58Speaker 02

  Because time doesn't work in this linear way that we're used to experiencing, right? Like, that's what precognition is showing us. If you can get information about future events that are rate of chance, and I can do that, and other people can do that, and, and actually, most people can do that, according to the statistics, and they're just not conscious of it, you know, if your physiology is changing, then that means that sort of information can leak backwards from the future.

• 1:51:25Joe Rogan?

  Right, but can it leak backwards an infinite amount of time? Like, could it link backwards all the way to the end of the universe where it dies of heat death?

• 1:51:34Speaker 02

  And so Jamie's bringing up this-

• 1:51:36Joe Rogan?

  Oh, the Akashic Records here, right. I was gonna bring that up, yeah. It's a modern esoteric term, the idea of a cosmic library that stores every event, thought, feeling, and intention that has ever occurred, often said to be accessible through psychic or mystical means. That's, that has ever occurred, but what about forever in time, in the future, the potential future, yeah. So in theosophy and anthroposophy?

• 1:52:02Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:52:03Joe Rogan?

  What is that word?

• 1:52:04Speaker 02

  Anthroposophy.

• 1:52:05Joe Rogan?

  What does that word?

• 1:52:06Speaker 02

  What does it mean?

• 1:52:07Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, what does that mean?

• 1:52:08Speaker 02

  I don't know, I don't get whether anthroposophy, there's all these anthroposophists, and they're related to the Waldorf people, but I don't totally understand it.

• 1:52:14Joe Rogan?

  It's perplexity, our AI sponsor, trying to flex.

• 1:52:17Speaker 02

  Oh, okay, cool.

• 1:52:18Joe Rogan?

  That's what it's doing, it's flexing on us, showing us how smart it is. They're described as non-physical compendium of all universal events, thoughts, words, emotions, and intents, spanning past, present, and potential future.

• 1:52:31Joe Rogan?

  So potential future meaning forever. So the idea that we're somehow or another, when these people are able to sense something that's going to happen, or know about an image that's going to be displayed, that this small leap in the future of a few seconds, or a minute, or whatever it is, it's also accessible forever. It's like there's no distance that's...

• 1:52:58Speaker 02

  Ty, if you just think about time as a landscape, imagine time as a landscape. There's a mountain, there's a waterfall, there's a tree. And we're used to just walking in, in single file, in one direction in the landscape. But if you fly a plane above, you could say, oh, I see on the other side of the mountain, there's this waterfall. And so flying the plane above is like doing any of these mystical practices, like with the Akashic records, or doing remote viewing, or accessing that information, accessing the landscape in a different way. Not through this linear, sort of, physical dimension or reality, or whatever we want to call it, but through some other, like, maybe you go to a different dimension. I don't know how to think about it mathematically, maybe you go to a different dimension.

• 1:53:43Joe Rogan?

  The thing about memory and consciousness, and just the idea of future and time at all, everything is made out of matter, right? We are made out of atoms.

• 1:53:54Speaker 02

  Ideas aren't made out of matter.

• 1:53:56Joe Rogan?

  Not, no, but I'm gonna get to that. So the idea is that if we are made out of atoms, well, that means subatomic particles exist inside of us. Subatomic particles are made out of magic. Like, what they do is, they exist in superposition, they're moving, and they're still at the same time. They, they can be quantumly connected to other particles that are nowhere near... So why wouldn't we think consciousness that exists supposedly, at least, if not exists, is tuned in by our own minds? It's somehow another that's probably connected in some weird spooky action at a distance way.

• 1:54:37Speaker 02

  Well, it's not even weird. As you said, it's exactly what we're made of.

• 1:54:41Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 1:54:42Speaker 02

  So we call it weird because we're trapped in this.

• 1:54:45Joe Rogan?

  Monkey mind.

• 1:54:45Speaker 02

  We're trapped in this like linear.

• 1:54:47Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:54:48Speaker 02

  Oh, it works like this. Oh, the ball will always go in this direction. We're trapped in that, but we are made of quantum particles, as you said, quantum wave particles. And even, by the way, at the larger level than the subatomic particles, you have chemicals in our body that are actually, you know, in quantum coherence or superposition.

• 1:55:08Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:55:09Speaker 02

  And so, and in birds and in leaves. I mean, that's how photosynthesis works. So don't get me started on quantum computing because I get a little pissed off about this because, okay, I know we were talking about consciousness. Should I?

• 1:55:25Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:55:26Speaker 02

  Okay. All right. I'll just go on my little train. My heartbeat is going wild.

• 1:55:30Joe Rogan?

  Is it?

• 1:55:31Speaker 02

  Yeah, because this is really something that is really important to me for some reason that I don't understand.

• 1:55:37Joe Rogan?

  Quantum computing is?

• 1:55:39Speaker 02

  Our mistake, our current mistake with quantum computing, what I believe to be the current mistake, misunderstanding. So a leaf is using essentially quantum computing to do photosynthesis in a way that we don't, that we can't replicate right now. I mean, at room temperature, above room temperature, if it's out in the sun, right? It's keeping these chemicals in superposition. It is able to trap energy from photons better than anything that we have.

• 1:56:19Speaker 02

  It's doing quantum computing without a lot of expense. So when we go and we decide that we want, we want to be the first in quantum computing and we're going to invest all this money in like supercooling systems and very difficult to understand error correction methods and all these things, working on trapping single particles at the subatomic level, and that's how we're going to have to do it to make it, to force it into these patterns, like, come on, we're doing something wrong. Like, a leaf can do it outside in the sun and does it all the time.

• 1:56:58Speaker 02

  We're doing something wrong. So I started thinking that way like 12 years ago. And got really passionate about photons and how photons are kind of like this, almost like a link. This is another thing that I'm going to say, you're going to be like, why do you think this? But regardless, it came into my mind that photons are kind of like a link between mind and matter. Like, they're not really, like you said, they're made of magic. They're not really matter. They don't have any mass. You know, and they're actually, they're bosonic particles. So there's two types of particles. One is a fermionic, named after Enrico Fermi. And those are things we're used to,

• 1:57:40Speaker 02

  like protons, neutrons, electrons. And then there's bosonic particles, which are things that generally, I think that none of them have any mass. And they're very different. Like, the Higgs boson is one, photons is another example. Photons are another example. I think there's a version of helium that's also bosonic. But what makes it bosonic is it could be in the same place at the same time as another bosonic particle, and then another one, and another one, and another one. So like, they kind of don't exist in physical reality. It's like, we have this idea that two electrons can't be in the same place at the same time, and they can't. But these can. And so it's almost like they're interacting in another dimension

• 1:58:25Speaker 02

  that's less physical. And it seems just interesting to me that we think a lot about what a photon would feel. And I just, I just keep thinking that there's some connection between what we call mind and what we call brain that has to do with photons. So anyway, I got obsessed with photons. And I started thinking about the double slit experiment. Does your audience know what that is?

• 1:58:54Joe Rogan?

  Probably, but a refresher would probably be good for everybody.

• 1:58:57Speaker 02

  Okay, yeah. So when I first told my husband about the double slit experiment, he's an artist. He's like, "Double slit."

• 1:59:09Speaker 02

  I'm like, that never occurred to me. Because I'm like, I'm ready to explain it to him. And then he's like, couldn't get off that. But anyway, it was pretty.

• 1:59:16Joe Rogan?

  Beavs and butt heads.

• 1:59:17Speaker 02

  Yeah. You're so double slit. So imagine there's like a flashlight at one end of a tube. And then there's like a photon detector at the other end of the tube. And in between the flashlight and the photon detector are two slits. And they could be in cardboard or metal or whatever. So there's two slits here. And they're very skinny. And the reason I say they're skinny is because they're so skinny that if you turn down the light enough, only one photon is going to get through. And it's going to have to choose between this slit or that slit. And the weird thing is, if you do this over time, you'll see the pattern at the photon detector at the other end of the tube. It'll look like an interference pattern. What does that mean? Oh, look at you.

• 2:00:02Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, here it is.

• 2:00:03Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:00:03Joe Rogan?

  So the electron beam gun, electrons goes through the double slit. And at the end of it, you get this very bizarre pattern.

• 2:00:10Speaker 02

  Yeah, and this pattern. And so I was talking about photons. But yeah, you can do it with electrons. You can do it with larger particles. But, and that doesn't matter. But if you hear that one double slit up there is really good. That's a good one. Yes. So there's two pieces of it that are weird. The first bullet up there that you can't see on the screen, but is going to say that when you send a single particle, one at a time, it has to choose between the slits. But it still interferes, it seems to interfere with itself in space. It's like it goes through both slits. One particle goes in two places at once. It's called non-local in space. It's non-local.

• 2:00:55Speaker 02

  In other words, it's not behaving like we're used to. It's not behaving like a billiard ball. It's going, one thing is going through two slits. So I kept looking at this and saying, well, it might be non-local in space. But if it, it could be non-local in time. And by that, I mean that if you put electron or a photon in there, it could be interfering from the future, like with another electron or another photon that happens in the future. And there's actually an experiment you can do to test that. And I wanted to do the experiment. So first of all, did you understand what I just said?

• 2:01:33Joe Rogan?

  Mm hmm.

• 2:01:33Speaker 02

  Okay. So the way you could test that is, look, if the photon that's gonna, if the photon, I'm just saying, now I'm gonna pretend I'm a photon. I don't really like thinking of photons traveling because I don't think they really travel. But anyway, I'm gonna pretend I'm a photon. I just got shot out of this flashlight or this lightbulb. I'm traveling towards this light and I interfere with another photon that wasn't just shot out of the lightbulb. It's going to be shot out of the lightbulb in the future, but it's just sort of hanging out there because it's floating around in time.

• 2:02:08Joe Rogan?

  Is the actual light able to do one photon at a time?

• 2:02:12Speaker 02

  Yeah, if you turn it down enough, it is.

• 2:02:15Joe Rogan?

  How could you measure whether it's one photon?

• 2:02:17Speaker 02

  You calculate, you can just calculate the expected amount of light that should come through with the detector.

• 2:02:23Joe Rogan?

  And is that accurate down to a single photon?

• 2:02:27Speaker 02

  Yeah, you can calculate based on the speed of light and the emission and where the detector is.

• 2:02:33Joe Rogan?

  Okay.

• 2:02:33Speaker 02

  How much, yeah. So you can turn it down to that level. And I think it's, this experiment's like almost, I think it's 100 years old. So they were able to do that way back then. And so imagine this photon gets shot out of this flashlight. It interferes with another photon, just like it from the future. Just imagine that's possible. If that's true, then in experiments where you have a lot of photons available to interact from the future, like in other words, the light is on for a long time, the interference pattern should show a different sort of pattern than if.

• 2:03:15Speaker 02

  You don't have very many photons in the future, so the light's not going to be on a long time. So the experiment I wanted to do, and that I did, was, look, just randomly determine how long this experiment's going to last. How long are you going to leave this light on into the future? And then look at the very first period of time, like, look at the first 30 seconds. And after 30 seconds, you randomly choose, are you going to turn this light off? Or are you going to leave it on for another two minutes? In the first 30 seconds, can you determine what the choice is going to be based on the pattern? If you can, that means this thing is interfering in time. And it turns out, you could.

• 2:03:53Speaker 02

  So I ended up replicating that, and replicating that, and replicating that. And then a friend at UC Berkeley, who teaches the advanced physics lab there, said, "I want to set up my own equipment, do the exact same experiment. I'm going to run it over a year, and I'm going to see if I get the same result." So he sent me his data. He walked away. I analyzed the data, and I figured out the equation that relates the amount of future time after the decision to the detection pattern before the decision. And so that's the kind of result that I think is going to actually shift quantum computing, because you're working at room temperature with groups of photons

• 2:04:39Speaker 02

  rather than trying to trap them. And you're treating them more like a giant unit, this unit in time, rather than this unit in space. And so actually, could I name drop my new company?

• 2:04:52Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, what was the results of his data?

• 2:04:54Speaker 02

  Oh, that the same result happened? I mean...

• 2:04:58Joe Rogan?

  So it really was that somehow or another, the photons were able to predict the future?

• 2:05:03Speaker 02

  Yeah. Well, if you think of a box... Okay, so think of a really deep well. Let's think of a well with water on the bottom. You cannot see... You can't, like, look over the edge. It's so deep, you don't know how deep it is. So you might drop something in it, and then you listen for the ding, and you can have a sense of how deep it is. It's a little like this. You can't know in...

• 2:05:27Speaker 02

  Sort of with our eyes, how long that experiment's gonna last. But you're getting a little reverberation from the future in the photons. It's like they're telling on themselves. Like, we've got a lot of future photons to interfere with, so we're gonna behave in this way. Or, we don't have so many future photons to interfere with. We're gonna behave in this other way.

• 2:05:46Joe Rogan?

  One of the things that people are very familiar about, that know about the double slit experiment, is the idea of the observer, and how the observer changes reality.

• 2:05:56Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:05:58Joe Rogan?

  What do you think is going on there?

• 2:06:01Speaker 02

  The word "change" is super telling. Because when you think of, you were asking about timelines before.

• 2:06:09Speaker 02

  So, uh, uh...

• 2:06:11Joe Rogan?

  It affects-

• 2:06:11Speaker 02

  Hey, can you pull, can you pull up like a picture of timelines? And, and, and retro, like a picture of retro causality? Can you look at retro causality and put up a picture? I wanna, wanna say something about the word "change." Because-

• 2:06:23Joe Rogan?

  Okay.

• 2:06:23Speaker 02

  We have this idea of, um, it was supposed to be like this, whatever it is. It was supposed to be like, uh, that's a kind of a complicated one.

• 2:06:37Speaker 02

  Oh, gosh, there's all these complicated ones. There's, like, that path diagram.

• 2:06:46Speaker 02

  Boom, boom, boom.

• 2:06:49Speaker 02

  No, that's, why are they all so complicated? Let's do this now.

• 2:06:53Joe Rogan?

  Well, what is it about them that's so complicated?

• 2:06:56Speaker 02

  Well, because people don't really know how it works, and so they make all these different pictures of it. Okay, I'm just, let's ignore that. I'm just gonna make a picture in our heads.

• 2:07:03Joe Rogan?

  Okay, okay.

• 2:07:04Speaker 02

  Imagine a figure eight. So, we normally think of things just going like this. Figure eight goes, oh, I go back, like that. I get the information here, and I bring it back. Exactly. And so, it's more like time is doing that, or events are doing that, right? So, I guess, um, what was your original question, though? I got obsessed with pictures of, of timelines, change.

• 2:07:25Joe Rogan?

  Observer.

• 2:07:25Speaker 02

  Yeah. So the thing about changing something is if it was all, if it was, I like to use the word influence, because if it was already always going to happen, you didn't change anything. It's not like you're on a different timeline. It's that the future influenced the past.

• 2:07:47Joe Rogan?

  Right, but the observer influences reality in the results of the tests. So if you do an experiment.

• 2:07:55Speaker 02

  Yeah, no, I, because let me explain that effect. And then, so with the double slit experiment, the result is if you, that indicates this, if you put a little detector by one of the slits, because you say, I'm going to trap one of those, I'm going to trap a photon or electron, I'm going to figure out which slit it's going through. So you put a detector at one of the two slits. If it, if you get a bing, it means it went through that. If you don't get a bing, it went through the other one, right? What happens is the actual outcome now looks different. You don't get the same interference pattern. You get a single slit interference pattern, as if it didn't, it wasn't non-local in space or time. It didn't interfere with itself, and it just kind of like went through like a billiard ball.

• 2:08:36Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 2:08:37Speaker 02

  And so that's where the observer effect comes in. There's this idea that you have observed, you've tried to trap the photon during its flight. So that's the other reason why I think that mind and photons are related, is because there's something about the knowledge, I almost, again, think of it informationally, but it's like, you just gained knowledge about this system, as our knowledge mechanisms of our mind. You've just gained knowledge, and it has now changed. It's almost like the photons are part of mind, so of course, mind is affecting mind.

• 2:09:14Joe Rogan?

  And so, mind observing the photon changes the path of the photon?

• 2:09:19Speaker 02

  It changes mind.

• 2:09:20Joe Rogan?

  Changes the behavior of the photon, changes what we see as a result.

• 2:09:25Speaker 02

  It's like, like affects like. So if photons are like mind, and mind interacts with mind, now both minds are different. You have gained this knowledge, the photon has gone into this different place.

• 2:09:39Joe Rogan?

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• 2:10:24Joe Rogan?

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• 2:11:09Joe Rogan?

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• 2:11:48Joe Rogan?

  It's the problem with it. It's so weird and so weird to think of that observing something changes it, that it makes people start to consider, okay, like, if that's the case, how much of observing the known universe?

• 2:12:08Joe Rogan?

  Is a part of it existing?

• 2:12:11Speaker 02

  All of it. It's like this figure eight. That's the thing is that that's just a great example, it seems to me, of mind observing mind. Your mind and my mind will never be the same after observing each other, just like with every other person we meet, right? We're constantly changing. We're like influencing. We're constantly influencing each other.

• 2:12:30Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 2:12:31Speaker 02

  And it is like this figure eight thing, carrying it back.

• 2:12:36Speaker 02

  So I don't think there's any difference. It's just that photons behave more like our minds, so they're showing it to us.

• 2:12:46Speaker 02

  But electrons and, you know, anything that's doing the quantum thing.

• 2:12:49Joe Rogan?

  And so, why do you think that we have a bad understanding of quantum computing?

• 2:12:56Speaker 02

  Oh, I mean, no, I shouldn't.

• 2:12:57Joe Rogan?

  This is how we started this.

• 2:12:58Speaker 02

  Yeah, not that we have a bad understanding of quantum. We have a great understanding of what we are currently considering quantum computing.

• 2:13:05Joe Rogan?

  Or maybe this is the way we're talking about it.

• 2:13:08Speaker 02

  It's the approach. No, it's the approach. It's this approach of we're gonna trap a single

• 2:13:15Speaker 02

  particle slash wave. We're gonna trap a single photon. We're gonna trap a single ion. We're going to have it behave in ways repeatedly according to these commands, these gates that they, these gating functions that they do.

• 2:13:33Speaker 02

  And we understand that. The problem is, it seems to me, it's forcing something that shouldn't behave that way, that doesn't naturally behave that way, to behave that way. It's like we're trying to imitate classical computers with quantum computers. And it, and we're not taking into account these group classical level properties that clearly a leaf uses when it's doing photosynthesis. It has to. It's not building a super cooling system and, you know, trapping ions. It's functioning in this really wet physiological environment, and it's doing just fine with quantum computation. So it's more like... The approach needs to become more naturalistic.

• 2:14:17Speaker 02

  And I think it needs to take into account these non-local, temporally non-local phenomena like the one I discovered.

• 2:14:23Joe Rogan?

  Well, aren't they considering that, at least partially, at least it's being discussed, that this many-worlds interpretation of the results of quantum computing, that something's happening that you can't account for in the known universe. Something's happening with the scale of the equations that it's able to solve in the time span in which it's able to solve. It's not possible that the same sort of process is going on that would occur if it was happening right here and right now. That it seems that it's gathering the computing power.

• 2:14:54Speaker 02

  Yeah, that's great. That's the whole point of quantum computing, is to capture that. And, yes, it could be multiple universes, it could also be retrocausality. And people, some people don't like the retrocausality answer. I think that's actually more likely.

• 2:15:07Joe Rogan?

  So the retrocausality thing would be that all time is happening in this figure-eight loop, and then somehow or another, this quantum computer is able to tap into that and have this infinite access to all potential future and past information?

• 2:15:22Speaker 02

  Right. And then I just think it's easier to do quantum computing if you take into account, excuse me, if you take into account this retrocausality piece and these group properties of particles at room temperature that can tell us about the future.

• 2:15:42Joe Rogan?

  So, the idea that this, does that include a many-worlds interpretation of the universe? Does that, is that also there? And is it possible that not only do you get the time of all time available instantaneously, because it is a part of a loop, and somehow or another, a quantum computer is able to tap into that, but not just this timeline and this loop in this universe, but multiple universes, infinite in fact, that all of their time is also available?

• 2:16:19Speaker 02

  You know, maybe. The thing is, sorry, I'm just gonna have to drink more water.

• 2:16:24Joe Rogan?

  No, that's okay. There's water there in the glass, too, if you want some. Want some, this coffee?

• 2:16:28Speaker 02

  I get so excited about this stuff. The thing is...

• 2:16:31Joe Rogan?

  Good, great.

• 2:16:32Speaker 02

  The thing is, you don't need both. And so it could be both. I was just thinking this morning about how it could be both. It could be both. You could have these loops with the information, retrocausally bringing it back. And you could have multiple universes of those loops.

• 2:16:49Joe Rogan?

  Infinite loops.

• 2:16:50Speaker 02

  But they're kind of, it's kind of like saying, like, you know how physicists really like to be, to simplify things? It's kind of like saying, we could do whatever we want. We could paint a picture of a fairy who also does something. You know, and then there's a gnome over here that does something. But if you don't need those things, you throw them out, right? And so it's like, usually either people talk about multiple universes or retrocausality, but not both, because they're solving the same problem.

• 2:17:19Joe Rogan?

  Hmm. But it is possible that even with our little monkey minds trying to understand retrocausality, that we're not taking into account the possibility that retrocausality might exist in infinite timelines.

• 2:17:34Speaker 02

  Yep. Certainly. Certainly, the universe works in ways that we don't understand.

• 2:17:40Joe Rogan?

  And the deeper we look, the more confused we get.

• 2:17:42Speaker 02

  Yeah. And also, you find yourself looking right into mind. I really do think there's something to, the more you look into physics, the more you look into mind. I mean, all the physicists from, did you ever read that book, How the Hippies Saved Physics?

• 2:17:58Joe Rogan?

  No.

• 2:17:59Speaker 02

  Ah, sweet. Yeah. Sweet, good book about like the seventies and Esalen and physicists.

• 2:18:04Joe Rogan?

  Oh, okay.

• 2:18:05Speaker 02

  Realizing like-

• 2:18:06Joe Rogan?

  That's the real hippies. That's where the acid was flowing.

• 2:18:09Speaker 02

  Yeah, they're all tripping. And they had this experience of like, if we really understood quantum mechanics, we would just get it that it's mind looking into mind.

• 2:18:17Joe Rogan?

  Hmm. How do you think that aligns with this whole extraterrestrial thing?

• 2:18:26Speaker 02

  You're pointing at my book?

• 2:18:27Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:18:28Speaker 02

  Yeah. So this cover, my husband did the art.

• 2:18:30Joe Rogan?

  Have a nice disclosure?

• 2:18:31Speaker 02

  Yeah. It's like a little quirky, like, alien face engaging. It took him five minutes. I love it. Yeah, so this book is not about aliens, and some people get disappointed. It has an alien on the cover because people think of disclosure with aliens right now.

• 2:18:50Joe Rogan?

  Mm-hmm.

• 2:18:51Speaker 02

  But it's really about what you know, what we can find out by going into our inner space.

• 2:18:59Speaker 02

  Like what we can find out by tapping into our own wisdom and our own experience and not waiting for some authority figure to say, hey, this is what's true. And now we will reveal the great secret. Because honestly, when that happens, which could be literally tomorrow.

• 2:19:15Joe Rogan?

  Might be today.

• 2:19:17Speaker 02

  It might be today with the release of the files.

• 2:19:19Joe Rogan?

  I don't know what they're gonna tell us.

• 2:19:20Speaker 02

  Yeah, I think there's gonna be a lot of redacted stuff and flood the zone with shit.

• 2:19:24Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:19:25Speaker 02

  But, uh, but when that happens, it does, it's not gonna matter. Because when someone tells you something and they say it's true, it doesn't matter until you experience it. You know, it doesn't matter until it matters to you.

• 2:19:40Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 2:19:41Speaker 02

  And so.

• 2:19:42Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, that's a good point.

• 2:19:43Speaker 02

  And so I think that disclosure, if you wanna have a nice disclosure, it's really about learning what matters to you and disclosing all your own weird shit to yourself. You know, all the weird thoughts, like you're talking about that guy in your head. All those weird thoughts that we have and the weird experiences we've had in our lifetimes that we sort of vary. We say that, like the thing about the ball lightning, like I still forget that and I've talked about it several times. We sort of say, well, that's not normal, that's not usual, so maybe it didn't happen somehow, but it did, you know? Or people who have experienced seeing UAP or UFOs, or people who are psionic assets,

• 2:20:25Speaker 02

  or people like me who have psychic experiences all the time. It's, and how I suppressed it so that I could go in to get my PhD and then it came up as a flower later. I think that the movement has to switch, like we need a Copernican revolution where we're not looking for some authority figure to tell us what's true.

• 2:20:47Joe Rogan?

  I would, I would agree with that, but I also think it really helps if someone who knows more than you, who's honest, can tell you what's true. What I was kind of getting into, I agree with that, but what I was kind of getting into is this idea of retrocausality. If all timeline exists in the future, these things that people keep experiencing, which if you just extrapolated from what we understand about evolution, from ancient hominids to current human beings to what do you think we're gonna look like? Well, that's what I think we're gonna look like. There's very frail things that don't need muscles.

• 2:21:24Speaker 02

  Big heads.

• 2:21:24Joe Rogan?

  Very big heads.

• 2:21:25Speaker 02

  Kind of like weird arms.

• 2:21:26Joe Rogan?

  And communicate telepathically. And it seems like, and they don't have any gender. Seems like that's the direction that the human species is moving. And like, so if you thought of this whole idea of time going in this figure eight loop, then you would consider, oh, is that us?

• 2:21:43Speaker 02

  Yeah. Well, so that hypothesis is one of the many hypotheses, but I think that's a really good one, at least for the grays.

• 2:21:53Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:21:53Speaker 02

  At least for what people describe as the grays. I think there, people have described other kind of beings or creatures.

• 2:22:00Joe Rogan?

  Mm-hmm.

• 2:22:01Speaker 02

  And there's this, there's this guy, Michael Masters, who studies that.

• 2:22:05Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, I've had him on.

• 2:22:06Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah.

• 2:22:06Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:22:07Speaker 02

  And so we, if someone, the thing is, okay, so what if someone says that's the truth? It's still like, it's the same problem I have when I tell people like, look, all of us can basically get information from the future. And so can photons. Like, it doesn't matter until it matters. It doesn't matter until you make something. It doesn't, and that's, it doesn't matter until you make something. Like, you show that something works that uses this principle, then people believe it. It's like general relativity, lots of people don't know what it is, but we have GPS. You know, so we kind of have to say that's real.

• 2:22:48Speaker 02

  But someone saying something and making something with it are two different things. And so I'm very impressed with what people like Anna Brady Estevas, who used to be at the National Science Foundation, is doing. She made this company called, I guess, I don't know much about money companies. It's like a fund, some kind of fund, investment fund, called American Deep Tech. And she's like, I'm gonna reverse engineer UFOs. Because that's making something from these principles.

• 2:23:22Joe Rogan?

  Well, there's a lot of people that believe that's already being done.

• 2:23:24Speaker 02

  Well, yeah, but she wants to do it in the private sector outside of, you know, the big contracting companies.

• 2:23:31Joe Rogan?

  How's she attempting to reverse engineer a UFO?

• 2:23:33Speaker 02

  Well, she's not. She's building a fund that's trying to invest in different companies that are using these kind of principles like alternative propulsion, or, you know, informational time travel, or these kind of principles, spacetime metric. And so, she's one of many people who recognize that we have to get sort of out of the top five contracting companies who are holding all the knowledge about this stuff. We have to build things and just go forward.

• 2:24:02Joe Rogan?

  Hmm.

• 2:24:04Speaker 02

  I know.

• 2:24:06Speaker 02

  What are you thinking?

• 2:24:07Joe Rogan?

  Well, I mean, if this retrocausality idea about aliens in the future does exist, one of the weirder things is the back engineering part. Because part of the back engineering, there's, do you know who Diana Pasulka is?

• 2:24:24Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah.

• 2:24:24Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, so her work is very interesting.

• 2:24:26Speaker 02

  You've had her on the show.

• 2:24:27Joe Rogan?

  Yes, very interesting.

• 2:24:28Speaker 02

  And I love her new book, too.

• 2:24:30Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, her books are great. One of the things that she talked about, though, was that the idea that these things are donations.

• 2:24:36Speaker 02

  Yes, yeah. Jacques Vallée talks about that.

• 2:24:38Joe Rogan?

  Yes, yeah. And so does Gary Nolan. So it's this weird, the people that have examined the physical characteristics of them, they're very strange. Like, when they've gotten these little samples.

• 2:24:51Speaker 02

  Little bits, like weird metals that we don't have, yeah.

• 2:24:53Joe Rogan?

  Atomically layered, you know, somehow or another printed, and this very strange alloys that would cost billions of dollars to make, and they found this crash in 1976, like, it doesn't make any sense.

• 2:25:05Speaker 02

  No, they seem like little, to me, they seem like little acupuncture points, like, in the history of humanity. Like, little, just little acupuncture, like, oh, let's put a needle there, maybe they could have an iPhone. Maybe they could figure out how to cure cancer. You know, maybe they could figure out how to do faster than, like, travel. So it does feel like, yeah, little acupuncture, and it can be done with artifacts, like, people find. And I'm, you know, reading Diana Pasulka's book, American Cosmic. She talks about finding these artifacts and how she's, like, not even sure she believes in them, and I totally get it, I think I would feel the same way. But then, there's this other side to it that's not artifactual, it's about consciousness. It's about some kind of...

• 2:25:50Speaker 02

  Mystical awareness, you can also do acupuncture that way, right? You could put into someone's mind, like, I'm not sure how I had the idea as a cognitive neuroscientist to do this experiment with photons. I think you could put into someone's mind, information that will be helpful to the future. And I think that happens to people all over, inventors all over.

• 2:26:13Joe Rogan?

  That's the muse.

• 2:26:14Speaker 02

  Yeah, and the muse could come from the future, right?

• 2:26:18Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:26:18Speaker 02

  That's, Eric Wargo talks about that.

• 2:26:21Joe Rogan?

  I've thought about that with ideas that, it's almost like ideas are a life form. And this is the thought that I had. Like, if you think about everything that exists today that human beings have created, all that stuff came from an idea. Like, the idea then manifests itself in physical form, and we want to take credit for it. We want to say, oh, I made that, you know, steam engine. And you did, right? But how the fuck did you do that? Like, where did the idea come from? Because ideas, anybody that's really honest about their ideas will tell you, like, boy, I don't even know if that's my idea, it just came out of the ether. Every great thought that I've ever had, every great joke that I've ever written, all that stuff just came out of space, came out of some weird place.

• 2:27:03Joe Rogan?

  And I've always thought of that, like, what if ideas are a different type of life form? And it's a life form that manifests itself through us in physical space? And that's Marshall McLuhan's thought in a book from 1960s. He said, "Human beings are the sex organs of the machine world."

• 2:27:24Joe Rogan?

  Isn't that amazing?

• 2:27:24Speaker 02

  That's amazing.

• 2:27:25Joe Rogan?

  Isn't that an amazing quote?

• 2:27:26Speaker 02

  It came into my head, so I love that idea. I always thought of science as like a living being, like it has its desire, and if you don't do the experiment, someone else is going to do the experiment.

• 2:27:36Joe Rogan?

  Right, and it possesses you.

• 2:27:37Speaker 02

  And songwriters talk about that, too. If you don't write the song, someone else is going to write the song. And, you know, the image I had in my head, because I think in images, was of, do you remember those Play-Doh heads that would have holes in them, and you would turn the crank and the Play-Doh would come up?

• 2:27:52Joe Rogan?

  Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 2:27:53Speaker 02

  Shaving haircut?

• 2:27:53Joe Rogan?

  Give them haircuts, that's right, yeah.

• 2:27:55Speaker 02

  That's what came into my head, like, it's just coming out of whatever hole is unblocked, and it just has its own momentum. And then, like, what if one of those little holes said, oh, look what I did, I grew this hair? And it's like, well, okay.

• 2:28:07Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, right? I know. That's what it's like. I mean, most people that I've talked to that are singers, songwriters, authors in particular, they'll tell you that these ideas just sort of come out of nowhere and you've just got to be there to receive them.

• 2:28:22Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:28:22Joe Rogan?

  Pressfield wrote a great book about it called The War of Art. Steven Pressfield?

• 2:28:26Speaker 02

  No, I don't know.

• 2:28:27Joe Rogan?

  He wrote The Legend of Bagger Vance and he's a screenwriter and just a brilliant guy. But his book, The War of Art, is really like a masterpiece because I have a stack of them and I give them to comedians. I just read this because it talks about the muse and it talks about treating it as if it's like a real deity that you are summoning and you do the work, you show up every day, you like have this intention to do this and if you do that, it will be real. And it is like these are things that come from somewhere else into your head.

• 2:29:00Speaker 02

  Well, especially in comedy because you have to be in the moment. You're not thinking, I mean, even if you write your whole show ahead of time, right? Mike Birbiglia talks about this on Working It Out, right? Even if you write your whole show ahead of time, if you're not in the moment, the timing is going to be off.

• 2:29:14Joe Rogan?

  Not only that, it's not just the timings off, the audience knows.

• 2:29:18Speaker 02

  Yeah, they can tell.

• 2:29:18Joe Rogan?

  You could say things exactly correctly with the right timing.

• 2:29:22Speaker 02

  Yep.

• 2:29:22Joe Rogan?

  But they're animals. They smell it. Like if you're thinking about your laundry or something else, like they know.

• 2:29:28Speaker 02

  Right.

• 2:29:29Joe Rogan?

  Like they know if you're really thinking about a thing. It's hypnosis.

• 2:29:32Speaker 02

  Yeah, or it's like telepathy. They could, I, when I was, this morning, I'm like, oh God, I just have to take a nap because I'm thinking too much about what I'm going to say on Joe Rogan's show, you know? And that's just the worst when you're thinking about what you're gonna say.

• 2:29:46Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:29:47Speaker 02

  Because then if you say it, everyone could just tell like, oh whatever.

• 2:29:49Joe Rogan?

  Well, you're thinking about a result.

• 2:29:50Speaker 02

  It's like you're reading a line.

• 2:29:52Joe Rogan?

  You're thinking about a result instead of thinking about the process.

• 2:29:54Speaker 02

  Yeah, or you're just not in the process.

• 2:29:56Joe Rogan?

  Right, right, right.

• 2:29:57Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah. Which is so funny, because we're sitting here talking about retrocausality and these figure eight things and the multiple worlds, and then we're talking about how important it is to be in the now, which kind of like doesn't exist physically, but sure exists psychologically. Like, it's all that exists.

• 2:30:10Joe Rogan?

  And we were also talking before about ego, and I think that's a part of the problem with the way people can create or not create, is that you gotta learn how to get out of your own way. And everybody talks about that. Writers always talk about that, like, you have to just get out of your own way. And that's really what's going on with this wrestling match with the mind.

• 2:30:29Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 2:30:30Joe Rogan?

  It's like, we're trying to like, just be clear. And I think that's where probably some of this non-verbal, these non-speaking people, that's where they have this advantage.

• 2:30:41Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 2:30:41Joe Rogan?

  They're not, they don't have the same perception of themselves, the way we do, I bet.

• 2:30:46Speaker 02

  Um, not, not at all.

• 2:30:49Joe Rogan?

  So they're free, in that regard, that they don't have that monkey on their back, so to speak.

• 2:30:53Speaker 02

  Well, but then they have another monkey on their back, which is they live in this culture in which people think they're idiots, because we read each other's bodies, and we say, there's something wrong with the way you're moving your body, you can't talk, you're making these sounds. And so, you're free in your mind, but you're not free in your body.

• 2:31:08Joe Rogan?

  And we're giving off negativity, oh, what's wrong with this guy, and then they feel that.

• 2:31:11Speaker 02

  And they hear it.

• 2:31:12Joe Rogan?

  Right, right, right.

• 2:31:12Speaker 02

  And so, when we were filming for Kai's documentary, we all got together with the sound people and the camera people before our first known speaker came in for their trial. And we said, when, you know, they're telepathic, so we're gonna do a little prayer right now, that we can all be in a proper, positive state when they come in. And our first student came in and said, it was really great walking through the hall and feeling that good.

• 2:31:37Joe Rogan?

  Hmm.

• 2:31:38Speaker 02

  And, and, you know, not like we told them we did that, but it was just validation that that was there. And the getting out of your own way, like, God, I think that's less of a problem for these students.

• 2:31:49Joe Rogan?

  Is that a part of the book?

• 2:31:50Speaker 02

  Well, the reason I'm looking, I guess, at the book, is that the first two chapters popped out of me. I didn't know I was writing a book until I was on the second chapter.

• 2:31:58Joe Rogan?

  I would think you were writing.

• 2:32:00Speaker 02

  I'm like, I'm writing words on a page. It was this weird story about a guy who hears the walls start talking, and he's like, what's going on? And, and it's in, and it's in the second person, like, I'm saying, you, this is happening to you. And like, why am I, I've never written like that before? And the second chapter, I'm like, I think I'm writing a book, and I don't know what this is about. And- By the third chapter, I'm finally like, what the fuck? I mean, what is going on? And so it was a discovery process. So the whole first half of the book is this discovery process of like, what am I trying to communicate? And I had to get everything out of the way in terms of all like the scholarly stuff, like, well, I better not say that. Nope, didn't get to, nope, just had to say the things that were coming up.

• 2:32:41Speaker 02

  Had to do it all, just exactly as it was, like I was writing a song, you know? And then what it kind of did was work on me, like, like it had its own process that I didn't think it was gonna have. Like, I thought it would work on other people. I don't know what I thought. I just had to write the words. And then I just, I guess in the back of my mind, I'm like, it's gonna make people feel their own inner space in a way that's gonna be unique to them. And then it turns out, I ended up feeling my own inner space in a way that was unique to me. And then I had to write about that. So I ended up talking about this, this gifted and talented program I was in and all the receipts I had from that and what the heck was going on with that. It's funny to me how sometimes I'll swear, sometimes I'll say heck.

• 2:33:26Speaker 02

  But I don't know why, I was like, why? Like sometimes I say, what the fuck? And sometimes I'll be like, gosh, darn it. Don't know what the difference is.

• 2:33:35Joe Rogan?

  Oh, I think about that all the time.

• 2:33:36Speaker 02

  Yeah, but anyway, it's a weird, weird book. But what it did was open up for a lot of people who were in these weird gifted and talented programs, opened up a lot of memories. And I ended up starting a support group for people who had these experiences and kind of don't know what to do with them and still feel the surveillance and the sort of, the feeling of being studied throughout your whole life. And not knowing if your gifts are your own or if they were taught to you in some kind of way that you've forgotten. And so anyway, I don't know why I brought that up. I guess about the, I guess about the getting out of your own way thing. I had to write all that down. It's the best book I've ever written.

• 2:34:19Speaker 02

  I've written other books, they're good. But this one is everything I wanted to say, nothing I didn't want to say. And I got it all out there. And I have a security clearance and I was afraid that it would get taken away from me if I said all these things.

• 2:34:35Joe Rogan?

  Because you talked about remote viewing?

• 2:34:37Speaker 02

  No, because I talked about the intelligence community potentially being involved in...

• 2:34:43Joe Rogan?

  Gifted programs?

• 2:34:45Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:34:45Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, well, of course they are. I would imagine they are.

• 2:34:48Speaker 02

  I would imagine...

• 2:34:48Joe Rogan?

  I mean, imagine they were trying to get talent in any way they can, especially if they actually invested time and energy, and we know they have, in remote viewing and things along those lines.

• 2:34:56Speaker 02

  Yeah, but the problem is, they were doing these... I mean, of course, I'm impressed with and know many good people in the intelligence community, and at the time that they were doing these programs and giving students these weird drinks and doing some kind of mechanism to remove memory of certain things, they were not asking for parental consent. So, yes, looking for talent, understood. Yes, trying to look for psychic... I mean, the intelligence community has always been interested in psychic capacities. Not asking for parental consent, bad.

• 2:35:32Joe Rogan?

  And so they were giving you guys drinks? Do you know what was in it?

• 2:35:36Speaker 02

  No. I remember a pink drink that was chalky. It's the same kind of drink everyone talks about.

• 2:35:43Joe Rogan?

  And then what was the effect of that pink drink?

• 2:35:45Speaker 02

  I don't know. So, here's the... There's two memory lapses that are very consistent. One was in seventh grade when I was explicitly told I was in a gifted program, other than my earlier years when I just had these pullouts and things. So, in seventh grade, I'm in what's called the SOAR program. This was in like 80, 81. This is before GATE, Gifted Intelligent Education. I think it's just a predecessor to GATE. And I was pulled out every week, I think about every week, to go see a counselor. But the counselor was really two people, and a man and a woman.

• 2:36:24Speaker 02

  Maybe it was sometimes just her, but I think it was both of them. And they would see me in the small rooms, but all I remember is walking. I remember walking down the hallway to the room, dreading that, opening the door. I know which door it was, I can picture it, shutting the door. There's stuff over the window. And then I black out like every time. And, and I don't mean like I'm 57 years old and I don't remember what happened in the seventh grade. What I mean is when I would then leave, I remember going back to class and not remembering what happened in the room.

• 2:36:58Joe Rogan?

  Wow.

• 2:37:00Speaker 02

  So there's some kind of, and this is not, I mean, this is not different from what many other people will report in that program. So I think some amnesiac, either, either the drink was the amnesiac or the drink is something else. And they did hypnosis to make us forget or whatever. The other time was when I was adult, I was adult-ish, I was 20-ish. And I took some time off of college to go hang out in Palo Alto. Cause I had a boyfriend out there, I previously had a boyfriend out there and I was kind of into the Stanford world. I wasn't at Stanford, but I was just into hanging out there and I needed a job.

• 2:37:44Speaker 02

  And so I, it was the time when word processing was like, you could get paid to be a word processor.

• 2:37:53Speaker 02

  And I understood computers and I was like, I'll be a word processor. So I either got, I either saw an ad in the newspaper at Lockheed Martin or my dad told me, I know someone you should talk to at Lockheed Martin for a job. I end up at Lockheed Martin for an interview in the morning. They hire me on the spot. Then I remember sitting and talking to the guy during the interview. Just, I could see the parking lot behind him. I see the desk behind me, I'm vaguely sensing in memory some kind of weird equipment. But again, no memory of that. Then I remember the end of the day. When I'm typing on a computer, my hands are shaking and I'm crying.

• 2:38:37Speaker 02

  I don't remember what happened between the morning and the night in that moment. I don't remember. And I feel like I'm typing up a resignation letter. But in my memory, it could have just been the thing I was typing up, like word processing. But I hand it to the boss and I go, I can't work here. And he said, oh, I thought you would have a great future at Lockheed Martin. I'm like, why would you say that to a 20 year old who you know is going back to college in like three months? What a weird thing to say to a word processor who you just hired on that day. And then I left. So I don't know what to say about those instances.

• 2:39:18Speaker 02

  My memory is usually pretty photographic and my auditory memory is excellent.

• 2:39:23Joe Rogan?

  So do you think that the people at Lockheed Martin somehow or another had record of you being a part of this other program?

• 2:39:30Speaker 02

  I figure.

• 2:39:31Joe Rogan?

  And that's one of the reasons why they hired you?

• 2:39:33Speaker 02

  I figure. Or my dad knew that and maybe the memory of him telling me was a real memory. I mean, so he was working for Department of Energy when I was a kid. And I recently had a support group meeting like two days ago with the folks who were in these programs. And someone asked the question, who here had parents who worked for either the public school system or federal government? And everyone raised their hand and then I said, who here didn't? Like, let's just make sure and no one didn't. And so.

• 2:40:04Joe Rogan?

  Wow.

• 2:40:06Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:40:07Joe Rogan?

  So the federal government is mining people's children so he's exceptional so that they can use them for whatever they're trying to accomplish.

• 2:40:15Speaker 02

  Well, or their contractors. And maybe it's like, excuse me. I get burpy when I talk about stuff that's hard. You know, maybe like I wanted to work for the federal government and I got a job offer and everything, went through their security clearance process and the Doge happened. But I was recruited four days after I filed a FOIA to try to get information about that program. And then a couple of days later, I'm more burpy. A couple of days later.

• 2:40:52Speaker 02

  After I passed the first interview, I got a note from the FOIA people saying, are you sure you want us to continue this FOIA request? Four days later, I mean, that's not, that's fast for FOIA. Like, FOIA is not super rapid. And then I said, no, I guess maybe not, because I was thinking maybe the people who were gonna hire me maybe didn't want me to have an outstanding FOIA request. So I said, maybe not. And then three minutes later, I got a call from the recruiter saying, okay, you've passed to the next level.

• 2:41:23Joe Rogan?

  Oh, wow.

• 2:41:25Speaker 02

  Yeah. So I think that there's, I know, so I don't mean to sound, so the thing that I think was wrong, unethical, was not giving students things to ingest and doing experiments that remove their memory without consent of parents and the students, right?

• 2:41:43Joe Rogan?

  And this is universal amongst all the other students? They all said that they lost memory?

• 2:41:47Speaker 02

  Men, not universal, nothing's universal. Some actually remember horrible abuse that I can't repeat here. But many of them don't have amnesiac periods.

• 2:41:58Joe Rogan?

  And was the same with all of them? Was it a similar result that they were trying to achieve? Was it some sort of exceptional powers that these children had, or exceptional ability, exceptional cognitive ability? Like, what was it?

• 2:42:14Speaker 02

  It looks like they were looking for exceptional cognitive ability and leadership ability, creative ability, and psychic ability. But, no, so that's, so, I mean, I just wanna say, like, that's not nefarious to want those things.

• 2:42:29Joe Rogan?

  But it is from children.

• 2:42:30Speaker 02

  Right. And so this is the thing, that is just like, okay.

• 2:42:33Joe Rogan?

  It's just taking children and making, doing experiments on them. It's like, you're fucking weirding them out. They're supposed to be playing with their friends and having fun and living a normal life. You've all of a sudden changed all of that by introducing them to scientific experiments and making them drink fucking Pepto Bismol or whatever they're giving you.

• 2:42:50Speaker 02

  Some amnesiac.

• 2:42:51Joe Rogan?

  Whatever, pink.

• 2:42:52Speaker 02

  Or some radioactive thing. I don't know. So I had this dream.

• 2:42:54Joe Rogan?

  Radioactive.

• 2:42:55Speaker 02

  Well, so the reason I-

• 2:42:56Joe Rogan?

  X-Men type shit.

• 2:42:57Speaker 02

  Sorry. Well, right. And so the reason I bring that up is I had this, so I know already that I'm gifted at dreaming telepathically and precognitively, right?

• 2:43:08Speaker 02

  So I know that's true. And then I have this dream. After I moved to Washington DC and I'm starting to think about working for the federal government, I have this dream, I don't have a job yet, or even a job offer. But this car is following me in the dream. It's a red convertible. And there's a guy in the convertible and it has a little FBI badge on it, on the car. And I'm like, why are you following me? So I just speed up and he keeps following me. And he says, hey, we like how spunky you are, but call the office. And I go, call the office? I don't have a job. And he goes, call the office? He's very adamant. And so I'm pissed and I crawl up on the hood of the car and I look at him, you know, as he's driving, as one does in one's dream.

• 2:43:53Speaker 02

  I'm very aggressive. And I said, give me the phone number. So he gives me the phone number and I immediately wake up, I write it down. It's the only time it's ever happened to me in a dream that a phone number actually corresponds to a phone number of a government agency. So I look it up, corresponds to a government agency that monitors radiation exposure. And the first document I find online is this document about these tests of radiation exposure in humans that started in the seventies. And they're like, look, we can't do these tests on animals. We have to do them on humans. It didn't say like, let's give people radiation. Or it didn't say, let's give people things that soak up radiation and help heal them. It didn't say either of those things. It just said, we have to do this on humans.

• 2:44:37Speaker 02

  It was from the Nuclear Defense Agency. And so that made me start asking questions about whether this has to do with trying to understand the effect of radioactivity. And so I looked into a bunch of history and I found out that my mom's, my mom grew up really poor. Both her parents worked at a uranium mining facility in Denver. And of course, her mother was a secretary, but her father was a miner. And he would come home with, you know, uranium dust on his boots. And so there's, there's intergenerational exposure, right? So if you're, if you're a parent, if your mother especially, because you know, the, the eggs are,

• 2:45:20Speaker 02

  she was like seven or so, but the, if the eggs are in you your whole life as a woman, right? And so if they get mutated, I could see now, oh, I would potentially be studied. And my sister as well. So then I started looking at all these places where these programs developed. The very first SOAR program was in the seventies and started in Aiken, South Carolina. I found a bunch of newspaper articles about it. SOAR at the time stood for, get this, Students on Active Research. Like, let's just call it what it is, out loud, publicly.

• 2:45:58Joe Rogan?

  That's crazy.

• 2:45:59Speaker 02

  Yeah. So by the time it got to me up in Illinois, it was called Scholarly Opportunities in the Academic Realm.

• 2:46:07Joe Rogan?

  Active research is too creepy for people?

• 2:46:09Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah, my baby.

• 2:46:09Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:46:10Speaker 02

  But anyway, Aiken, South Carolina is right next to the Savannah River Nuclear Facility that processed plutonium. And so, and then there were a bunch of people who were in the SOAR program in Nevada, which is obviously a nuclear test site. And then I talked to a friend who knows a bunch of special forces guys, but he grew up in a place where they had these weird radioactivity, like, actual containers, like, in their school, like, storage bins in their school, which is just weird. And he was in one of these programs and his friend was in one of these programs. And so I think there might be something related to that. And I don't know how all this stuff ties in, but the story, I'm, again, this is just speculation

• 2:46:53Speaker 02

  and based on the receipts that I found and putting things together, could all be wrong. And some of the, my good friends in the intelligence community think it's pretty nuts. But regardless.

• 2:47:04Speaker 02

  I would want to understand the effects of radiation on the human mind. Maybe it could make positive things happen, like the X-Men.

• 2:47:12Joe Rogan?

  At low level.

• 2:47:12Speaker 02

  At low levels.

• 2:47:13Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 2:47:14Speaker 02

  Right? I mean, I'm, as a cognitive neuroscientist, I get it. But you just have to ask for consent. You have to talk about the risks. You have to be clear about it. And you don't, it's clear that there's a file that kind of follows you, right? When you're in these programs.

• 2:47:28Joe Rogan?

  Well, it's also very clear that if you look at the history of MKUltra, their whole motive operandi was just do everything you want to do. Don't ask for permission.

• 2:47:37Speaker 02

  Well, yeah.

• 2:47:37Joe Rogan?

  Just do it to people. Operation Midnight Climax, all those crazy things that they were doing.

• 2:47:41Speaker 02

  But they shut it down. They were doing it to a lot of intelligence community officers. They said, okay, don't do that anymore. So let's do it to prisoners. Okay, don't do that anymore. Let's do it to children. Who's gonna, who's gonna, it's the 70s. Who's gonna say anything?

• 2:47:54Joe Rogan?

  I bet foster kids.

• 2:47:55Speaker 02

  Well, yeah, and people like me, whose families were breaking up and also, you know, you're in the public school and you're, you know, your parents are trying to hold their shit together.

• 2:48:05Joe Rogan?

  Mm-hmm.

• 2:48:06Speaker 02

  So they don't know what's going on. So, yeah, it's unethical, probably illegal. And I understand that it may be for good reasons. I mean, I think all those things are true.

• 2:48:18Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 2:48:19Speaker 02

  And I think it's interesting that if you talk to kids who went to the gifted programs in the DC area, in that same generation, they say none of this stuff happened to them. Which is a red flag. It's like, you wouldn't want to do it to the, the executives are living in the DC area, right? The executives in the intelligence community and in those, in those contractors. So you wouldn't want to do it to those kids, because those are the kids of the executives.

• 2:48:45Joe Rogan?

  Ew.

• 2:48:47Speaker 02

  I know.

• 2:48:48Joe Rogan?

  Ew.

• 2:48:49Speaker 02

  I know.

• 2:48:50Joe Rogan?

  But, I mean, isn't that always the case? Like, that's also why those are the ones that don't get drafted?

• 2:48:55Speaker 02

  Yeah. No, it's the privilege, yeah.

• 2:48:57Joe Rogan?

  Yeah. It's creepy.

• 2:48:59Speaker 02

  Yeah, I know. It can go down a really bad rabbit hole, but I, that's what made me want to, all this kind of difficulty in my early childhood, brought some clarity and also, I guess, probably my, my psychic abilities or my precognitive abilities, as an, as an adult, has brought some clarity around what really matters? And what we can do to make the world a better place? And, and how we can heal all that, because every single person in that equation was doing the best they could, even if they were making shitty choices, you know? Like someone, I could imagine the counselor who knows what's going on, whatever they're doing to me in that room.

• 2:49:41Speaker 02

  I can imagine she, you know, felt like, okay, I have to do this for the country.

• 2:49:47Joe Rogan?

  To get results, to find out.

• 2:49:47Speaker 02

  Yeah, we need to do this for the country and we need to do this for humanity, you know? And so, there's a lot of forgiveness. Like every once in a while, I'll just send love back in time.

• 2:49:58Joe Rogan?

  Well, that's a very balanced view. Now I understand why, what you were talking about, like your youthful experience, that you would wanna live it over again, so you could forgive people and get over the trauma of it. Now I understand.

• 2:50:11Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:50:11Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:50:12Speaker 02

  Yeah, well, that's why I'm wearing this shirt, because I started on-

• 2:50:14Joe Rogan?

  Applied Love Labs.

• 2:50:16Speaker 02

  Yeah, I started that nonprofit in 2019 and what we do is we apply love, weaving it through time. And like technology and events and curricula. So, I would love to show off one of our coolest things. Can you go to timemachine.love? We built a time machine.

• 2:50:37Joe Rogan?

  Whoa.

• 2:50:39Speaker 02

  So, we actually use this with, with some native tribes and with some, there it is.

• 2:50:45Joe Rogan?

  Enter your time machine.

• 2:50:47Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:50:47Joe Rogan?

  So, what is this?

• 2:50:48Speaker 02

  So, this is, it's like a journaling, an audio journaling app, that essentially prompts you to give messages to yourself. And it says, it's going into your time machine, and then later, it comes out and you hear yourself and it has a-

• 2:51:03Joe Rogan?

  In the future.

• 2:51:05Speaker 02

  It has a bizarre impact because what happens is we're not used to hear, we're used to getting little messages from ourselves, like written.

• 2:51:13Joe Rogan?

  But not your actual self talking to yourself.

• 2:51:15Speaker 02

  Yeah, and it changes people. And it seems to be a real favorite of veterans and people who've experienced addiction and abuse and any kind of situation where they could say like, I'm gonna be here tomorrow and this is, these are the choices I'd like to make, you know? And I'd like to love myself and I'd like to feel love for other people. So we've used it at Cook County Jail with a group of people there who really found it powerful. And with a couple of native tribes who would like to change it a little bit and make it fit their culture a little better. But still, it looks like unconditional love itself. Like from the math, if you look at the statistics of the results of this experiment we did,

• 2:52:00Speaker 02

  it looks like unconditional love itself caused a huge shift, along with someone's time perspective, in which they started to include more, like started to love themselves over time more, like it's like a big bubble that extends over time.

• 2:52:15Joe Rogan?

  That makes sense.

• 2:52:16Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:52:17Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, makes sense.

• 2:52:18Speaker 02

  It totally makes sense. And it's how I handled, I sort of wanted to make that up because that's how I handled my childhood abuse.

• 2:52:28Speaker 02

  Was I-

• 2:52:28Joe Rogan?

  Can I get your book again?

• 2:52:29Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah.

• 2:52:29Joe Rogan?

  I feel like we just scratched the surface here. We've already killed three hours, but I feel like you and I could do-

• 2:52:33Speaker 02

  It's been three hours? No.

• 2:52:35Joe Rogan?

  Close to it, yeah. I feel like you and I could do a bunch of these, so let's do another one.

• 2:52:40Speaker 02

  I would love that.

• 2:52:41Joe Rogan?

  Definitely, because I feel like, we didn't even talk about remote viewing.

• 2:52:44Speaker 02

  Oh, let's just do a whole show on that. Because I was a teacher of it and then I'm an experimenter and then I have a team.

• 2:52:50Joe Rogan?

  Next, you come in, for sure.

• 2:52:51Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 2:52:51Joe Rogan?

  We'll do that.

• 2:52:52Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:52:52Joe Rogan?

  Thank you very much, this was a lot of fun. I really enjoyed it.

• 2:52:54Speaker 02

  Joe, excellent.

• 2:52:56Joe Rogan?

  And the book is called Have a Nice Disclosure, Julia Mossbridge, PhD, right there. Go get it. Did you do audiobook?

• 2:53:03Speaker 02

  I did.

• 2:53:04Joe Rogan?

  Did you read it?

• 2:53:04Speaker 02

  I gave you a free copy, it's me.

• 2:53:06Joe Rogan?

  Yes.

• 2:53:07Speaker 02

  I don't like audiobooks where it's not the person.

• 2:53:08Joe Rogan?

  I agree.

• 2:53:09Speaker 02

  It's like so stupid and like publishing companies will tell you, no, you have to have this actor do it. And I'm like, no, because you can hear when you listen if it's that person.

• 2:53:18Joe Rogan?

  Exactly.

• 2:53:19Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:53:19Joe Rogan?

  I agree, I'm glad you did it.

• 2:53:20Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:53:21Joe Rogan?

  All right, I'll listen to it.

• 2:53:22Speaker 02

  Cool.

• 2:53:22Joe Rogan?

  Thank you. Bye, everybody.

• 2:53:23Speaker 02

  Bye.

• 2:53:38Joe Rogan?

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