2 Chefs And A Lie 2026 With NPR’s Rachel Martin

We’re back with our annual game show: Two Chefs And A Lie! This year our contestant is Rachel Martin, host of the NPR podcast Wild Card and an old friend of Dan’s. The game goes like this: Rachel talks with three guests.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Dan Pashman?

  As someone who has been lucky enough to go to Napa Valley, I can tell you, it's everything people say it is. Beautiful scenery, quaint, beautiful towns, and phenomenal food and drink everywhere you go. I don't even know that much about wine, but I know that every glass of wine I had in Napa Valley was excellent. I mean, there's no bad glass of wine and no bad meal. Choose between hundreds of wineries, tasting rooms, and chef-led restaurants from a low-key lunch on a vineyard terrace to a full tasting menu paired by the winemaker. Plan your trip at visitnapavalley.com.

• 0:32Dan Pashman?

  I grew up on Land O' Lakes cheese. I still remember going to the supermarket deli counter with my mom and her ordering Land O' Lakes American cheese. And now, Land O' Lakes cheese and butter are a huge part of my home. There are so many easy weeknight recipes using Land O' Lakes cheese and butter that bring delicious restaurant taste right to your table. From chicken parm to weeknight shrimp pad Thai, Land O' Lakes has plenty of quick dishes that'll have the whole dinner table talking. Visit landolakes.com/reцепes/collection for easy weeknight dinners.

• 1:04Speaker 01

  Sirius XM Podcasts.

• 1:12Dan Pashman?

  It's an indication of how much I wanted you to be on this episode, Rachel, that I agreed to an 11 a.m. taping. This is my least favorite time of day.

• 1:20Speaker 01

  Is that right? Tell me more about that. Why?

• 1:23Dan Pashman?

  Well, it cuts into my lunch. All right.

• 1:25Speaker 01

  You're right. We are taping this in the middle of every mainstream opportunity for lunching.

• 1:31Dan Pashman?

  That's right, because we're gonna at least go till 12:30.

• 1:33Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:34Dan Pashman?

  And...

• 1:34Speaker 01

  And that's apparently too late for you.

• 1:36Dan Pashman?

  Well, I get hungry. I don't know, I'm not a big breakfast eater, so usually the first meal I eat of the day is around noon.

• 1:42Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:42Dan Pashman?

  I gotta have a snack before the taping, and then I can't really eat till at least 1.

• 1:46Speaker 01

  And then your whole day's off.

• 1:48Dan Pashman?

  Let me tell you something.

• 1:48Speaker 01

  Because then, like, maybe you've eaten lunch too late, and now you're gonna have a really late dinner, and then you're not gonna sleep well.

• 1:53Dan Pashman?

  Yes, only for you, Rachel.

• 1:55Speaker 01

  Sorry, man.

• 1:56Dan Pashman?

  And maybe like Michelle Obama.

• 1:58Speaker 01

  We're the same.

• 1:59Dan Pashman?

  Yeah.

• 2:00Speaker 01

  We're definitely the same.

• 2:00Dan Pashman?

  You two are on the same level.

• 2:01Speaker 01

  Yeah, totally.

• 2:08Dan Pashman?

  This is The Sporkful. It's not for foodies, it's for eaters. I'm Dan Pashman. Each week on our show, we obsess about food to learn more about people. And if it's summertime on The Sporkful, that means it's time to play our annual game show, Two Chefs at a Life.

• 2:27Dan Pashman?

  Now, let's go ahead and meet our contestants. We've been friends for nearly 20 years, ever since we worked together at NPR way back when. You've heard her hosting All Things Considered and Morning Edition. Now, she's the host of the excellent podcast Wild Card. Please welcome Rachel Martin.

• 2:44Speaker 01

  I mean, does it matter that I never hosted All Things Considered?

• 2:48Dan Pashman?

  You hosted Weekend All Things Considered?

• 2:50Speaker 01

  No. No.

• 2:51Dan Pashman?

  What was the thing that I was on with you?

• 2:52Speaker 01

  Weekend Edition Sunday.

• 2:54Dan Pashman?

  What was the thing that I was on with you?

• 2:56Speaker 01

  Weekend Edition Sunday.

• 2:57Dan Pashman?

  You never once hosted ATC?

• 2:59Speaker 01

  I mean, I filled in.

• 3:00Dan Pashman?

  All right, well, then, fine then. I'm not redoing the intro.

• 3:05Speaker 01

  Let's count it!

• 3:06Dan Pashman?

  All right, all right.

• 3:07Speaker 01

  We're counting it.

• 3:07Dan Pashman?

  I'm giving you credit for it.

• 3:08Speaker 01

  I love it.

• 3:09Dan Pashman?

  So, we go way back, Rachel. We became friends when we worked together at NPR. You are now hosting this podcast, Wild Card, which is described as part-interview, part-existential game show. I love it so much. For folks who haven't heard it, though, like, what's your elevator pitch? How would you describe it to people beyond that log line?

• 3:26Speaker 01

  Let's be honest, it's a celebrity interview show, but we just tried to rip up the script for how those things usually go.

• 3:32Dan Pashman?

  But it usually goes into a lot more depth than the typical celebrity interview show. Yes, your show does.

• 3:38Speaker 01

  Yeah, for sure. By design. Because we decided that we were just gonna ask the questions we most wanted to ask. And the best way to do that was to put them on cards, like, really deep questions that force people who have been interviewed a whole lot in their careers to get off their talking points and to stop deploying the same anecdotes that they always deploy. And so, they're really deep existential questions about how much fear is in your life and what have you learned about love over time? And what do you think happens when we die? So, it's big stuff.

• 4:13Dan Pashman?

  Yeah, and the game show component is that you tell people, pick a card, one, two, or three, and whatever card they pick, that's the question.

• 4:20Speaker 01

  The cards control the conversation. I mean, I sort of do, but the cards, it's like a choose your own adventure kind of thing. And each one really is different. So it's really surprising, which is also what I just selfishly wanted in my own life, like to be surprised by conversations.

• 4:34Dan Pashman?

  Right.

• 4:34Speaker 01

  And these go all over the place.

• 4:37Dan Pashman?

  They do, and that's the beauty of it. That's the beauty of it. And I think you shine in it as the host, so I hope everyone will check out.

• 4:41Speaker 01

  Thanks, man.

• 4:42Dan Pashman?

  Now, Rachel, we picked you for this partly because you host what is effectively a game show, and this is a game show, but it's sort of this porkful. You have been interviewing people for many decades, including what you, I'm sure you've interviewed sitting members of Congress, cabinet members. Have you interviewed a president?

• 4:58Speaker 01

  I interviewed Hamid Karzai, who was the president of Afghanistan at the time.

• 5:03Dan Pashman?

  I'll count it. I'll count it. Okay.

• 5:04Speaker 01

  And Joe Biden, but he was a candidate at the time.

• 5:07Dan Pashman?

  Okay, so you've interviewed some big, important people.

• 5:09Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 5:10Dan Pashman?

  And so you have interviewing skills. You are experienced at pulling details out of people, and we're going to call upon those skills today.

• 5:17Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 5:17Dan Pashman?

  You have this look on your face like, what have I gotten myself into?

• 5:19Speaker 01

  I don't even know.

• 5:20Dan Pashman?

  Here's how this game works. It's like two truths and a lie, but it's two chefs and a lie. We're going to have three people on Zoom. They're all coming to us today from Austin. You're going to meet one at a time. They're each going to share a brief intro about themselves, and then you're going to get to ask each of them five questions, only five.

• 5:36Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 5:37Dan Pashman?

  Then you have to guess which one is not the real chef, which one is the liar.

• 5:43Speaker 01

  I love it.

• 5:43Dan Pashman?

  And now, while you are our on-air contestant, I want to remind our listeners, you're all encouraged to play at home. See if you can spot the liar. Couple more quick details I want to cover. The guests we're going to talk to are joining us by Zoom, but their cameras are off. You will not be getting any more information than our listeners are getting. Of course, no Google, no AI, no performance-enhancing use of technology. And finally, I do want to note that while I am the emcee of this game, I do not know who the liar is.

• 6:08Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 6:08Dan Pashman?

  So that's what we're doing here, Rachel. Before we get to our first chef, what are your thoughts? What's the strat, as the kids would say?

• 6:15Speaker 01

  Well, I'm going to tell you. That I fancy myself, someone who is, is pretty good at understanding human nature. Does that feel braggy? Maybe it is. I don't know. I've spent a lot of time talking with people.

• 6:31Dan Pashman?

  Right.

• 6:31Speaker 01

  And you start to learn about people. And I've talked to a lot of politicians in my time. And so I can sort of tell when someone's fudging the truth. I'm just saying, I'm gonna listen very, very carefully. I'm very hardcore.

• 6:50Dan Pashman?

  All right, Rachel, you've heard the rules. You've laid out your strat. It's time to play Two Chefs and a Lie.

• 7:03Dan Pashman?

  Let's meet our first chef in Austin. It's Vera. Hello, Vera.

• 7:09Speaker 02

  Oh, hello.

• 7:10Dan Pashman?

  So Vera, tell us a little bit about yourself.

• 7:13Speaker 02

  So I'm a chef based in north part of Austin, in Georgetown. I own and operate a couple of restaurants, actually four now. And this has been a passion project that has turned into a good, you know, supporting my life, you know, with it. And along the way, I'm having fun. I'm studying wine. I just passed my certified SAAM test. So I'm, I'm just enjoying the ride here, man, and making a living out of it.

• 7:43Dan Pashman?

  SAAM is a sommelier, Rachel.

• 7:45Speaker 01

  Oh. She just made up a crazy word that I don't think is real. Turns out it is.

• 7:55Dan Pashman?

  All right. So you've heard Vera's intro, Rachel. You now get five questions.

• 7:59Speaker 01

  I get five questions. Okay, Vera.

• 8:04Speaker 01

  Tell me about the difficulty of opening your first restaurant. What was the biggest challenge?

• 8:12Speaker 02

  The biggest challenge, you know, I went in with not knowing what the restaurant world is, was at the time. I don't come from a restaurant background. I actually come from. A finance and engineering background. I went in thinking this is, this is something I really love and I'm really passionate about it. So I came from a very different attitude that it's like not knowing what could go wrong. Kind of saved me because I wasn't, I wasn't trained. Or I didn't work in a restaurant so far, like my naiveness actually helped me open a restaurant.

• 8:51Speaker 02

  But then later on in two years gone in, I was like, oh, I didn't know about that. So it's almost like I learned. Uh, like on the job and that probably was my biggest challenge.

• 9:03Speaker 01

  Mm hmm. And can you describe? The most obscure menu item on, let's say your second restaurant.

• 9:16Speaker 02

  I mean, I don't go out trying to find obscure menu items to put it in my restaurant. Um, cause you know, restaurant has to have a theme. So I, I wouldn't say like I'm, I'm going to put something like I would see on bizarre food.

• 9:32Speaker 01

  Mm hmm. Okay, let's change it. Just do, let's change the question to your favorite, your favorite menu item from your second restaurant.

• 9:39Dan Pashman?

  I'll allow this change in the question.

• 9:41Speaker 01

  Oh, thanks.

• 9:42Dan Pashman?

  We'll call this question two B.

• 9:44Speaker 01

  Thank you.

• 9:44Speaker 02

  Two B, okay. Um, and you said what's your favorite? Is that what you asked me?

• 9:49Speaker 01

  Favorite menu item, second restaurant.

• 9:51Speaker 02

  Second restaurant, favorite menu item. You know, it has to be scallops. Hokkaido scallops from Japan, fresh scallops with a little bit of a romesco sauce. And you know cauliflower with salsa matcha. I think that's my favorite because it combines two, three. Different culture into one dish and it's ends up really delicious.

• 10:15Speaker 01

  What differentiates a Hokkaido scallop from other scallops besides its origin?

• 10:23Dan Pashman?

  This is question three.

• 10:24Speaker 02

  Uh, the taste, the size, um, you know, the texture, it's a, it's a lot creamier. Um, sweeter, it's medium size. You know, it could be bigger if it's U ten, but.

• 10:40Speaker 02

  They're not the small scallops.

• 10:43Speaker 01

  Okay, I want you to tell me the life story as you know it of the manager of your newest restaurant.

• 10:51Dan Pashman?

  Oh.

• 10:53Speaker 02

  Life story, oh, perfect. Um, very young girl, she is um for the restaurant industry, I think she's twenty six, twenty seven. Born in Puerto Rico. Uh, her father is an actual, actually, they own an art gallery in uh Puerto Rico. And she, she comes from a very artistic background, um, and I think she brings that into the job where everything is, you know, she makes sure that everything is nice and pretty. So I can see that artistic side in her. Uh, not so much of a restaurant management background, a traditional way. And I think that brings a really great dynamic, you know, so.

• 11:35Speaker 02

  Um, I love working with her, she's always giving me a different perspective. And it's almost like I'm also learning from her, you know, her, her background in um, operating or helping her dad at art gallery.

• 11:50Speaker 01

  Hmm.

• 11:51Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 11:51Speaker 01

  Okay. Last question.

• 11:53Dan Pashman?

  Question for you, one more question, Rachel.

• 11:54Speaker 01

  Okay. Um, tell me about your biggest failure.

• 12:00Speaker 02

  Um, in the restaurant industry or, okay. In the restaurant industry, well, give me a minute, let me just think through that. Biggest failure.

• 12:10Speaker 01

  Failure.

• 12:11Speaker 02

  Hmm.

• 12:15Speaker 02

  Yes, I will tell you that, I, I own a wine bar in small town, Belton, Texas, and um, I didn't get along with the landlord. And I did not read uh all the details in my uh lease. So when it came to end, I was supposed to give him, I don't remember, ninety day written notice, which I did, but I'd never send it as certified mail. And that kind of backfired me because we had an agreement that my rent could not go up. You know, whatever. I don't remember the exact detail at the time. But me not paying attention to those little, well, it wasn't a little detail.

• 13:00Speaker 02

  Um, you know, I ended up shutting down my very first wine bar because of the lease discrepancy. That was big. That was very big because since then I've opened a multiple concept. I've sold two concept, but I've not actually closed any of my restaurant. And that was very big setback for me because, you know, I felt that I failed. I should have done, you know, something different. So, yeah.

• 13:30Speaker 01

  Very interesting, Vera.

• 13:33Dan Pashman?

  All right, Vera, thank you so much, Vera. We're gonna keep you on, on, on hold.

• 13:40Dan Pashman?

  Now, Rachel, before we move on, let's just like take a step back, take stock. There was a good amount of restaurant lingo in there.

• 13:48Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 13:48Dan Pashman?

  She called a sommelier a saum. She referred to scallops as U-ten, which I believe is like that there's ten scallops per pound, which means that they're a big scallop.

• 13:58Speaker 01

  Oh, interesting. That just wa- that just washed right over me, actually.

• 14:01Dan Pashman?

  Right. I made a note of that, but those are also the kinds of things that a person could like

• 14:05Speaker 01

  Look up.

• 14:05Dan Pashman?

  Google ahead of time and be like, I'm gonna drop some of this lingo to make it seem like I'm a real chef.

• 14:11Speaker 01

  Totally. The, the saum reference, I immediately put it in that bucket of like, oh, this is a thing she looked up to make her sound credible as part of her intro.

• 14:21Dan Pashman?

  Right.

• 14:22Speaker 01

  There were other ways that she told her story that I found to be revealing.

• 14:29Dan Pashman?

  Okay, but we're not gonna say yet what you think they revealed because like our chefs, Rachel, you are playing your cards close to the vest.

• 14:36Speaker 01

  That's right.

• 14:37Dan Pashman?

  You are not divulging your strategy at this time. So we're gonna take a quick break. When we come back, we'll meet our next two chefs. Then Rachel, you and our listeners at home have to decide who are the chefs and who is the liar. Stick around.

• 15:00Speaker 02

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• 15:05Dan Pashman?

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• 15:46Dan Pashman?

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• 16:30Dan Pashman?

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• 17:13Dan Pashman?

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• 17:45Dan Pashman?

  Welcome back to The Sporkful. I'm Dan Pashman, and I have an exciting update on an episode that we did a couple of months ago in Boston. Now, you may recall that one of my guests there was Matt Shearer, aka Reporter Matt, and he specializes in telling stories about Massachusetts that are quirky but also with a lot of heart. And at that live show, I gave Reporter Matt an assignment. So I went to school at Tufts, just outside Boston. That's where I first started drinking coffee, at the Dunkin' on Boston Ave in Medford.

• 18:11Speaker 03

  Amazing.

• 18:12Dan Pashman?

  And for a long time, there was a guy who worked there, whose name tag read Mr. Fresh.

• 18:18Speaker 03

  Oh, okay.

• 18:19Dan Pashman?

  So my initial assignment to you was find Mr. Fresh.

• 18:24Speaker 03

  I think I can.

• 18:24Dan Pashman?

  I want to know where he is. I want to know if he's okay.

• 18:27Speaker 03

  I think I know the GM of that Dunkin' you're talking about.

• 18:29Dan Pashman?

  Really? This was the late 90s?

• 18:30Speaker 03

  This GM I'm talking has been there for 40 years.

• 18:33Dan Pashman?

  Oh, my God. This is phenomenal.

• 18:34Speaker 03

  I think I may have a connection.

• 18:35Dan Pashman?

  Now, I am pleased to tell you that Reporter Matt found Mr. Fresh. He found Mr. Fresh. He made a video about it on Instagram. I'm in the video, too. It's on my Instagram grid. Check it out, and make sure you're following me on Instagram, at The Sporkful.

• 18:58Dan Pashman?

  All right, let's return to our game show, Two Chefs and a Live. My guest, once again, is Rachel Martin, host of the NPR podcast Wild Card. Rachel, are you ready for chef number two?

• 19:10Speaker 01

  I'm ready for chef number two. I'm still trying to figure out where that voice comes from in your body. Like, is it from your stomach? Is it coming out of your nose? I don't know. It's like, otherworldly.

• 19:19Dan Pashman?

  Very diaphragm. It's like, yeah. But then there's also, like, my face has to contort itself. I think probably something's happening in my throat and mouth that is, like, reverberating sound in weird ways. Who knows?

• 19:30Speaker 01

  I think it's a count as exercise. I think you've done your workout. Okay.

• 19:34Dan Pashman?

  All right.

• 19:34Speaker 01

  I'm ready.

• 19:35Dan Pashman?

  Once again, all of our chefs are joining us from Austin, Texas. And right now, we have chef number two. It is Chris. Hello, Chris.

• 19:42Speaker 04

  Hey, how's it going?

• 19:43Dan Pashman?

  It's going well. Say hello to my friend Rachel.

• 19:45Speaker 04

  Hi, Rachel. Nice to meet you.

• 19:47Speaker 01

  Hi, nice to meet you too.

• 19:48Dan Pashman?

  All right, Chris, give us your intro.

• 19:51Speaker 04

  So I have a ramen shop here in Austin, Texas that does a Japanese-Mexican fusion project.

• 19:58Speaker 01

  I already have so many questions.

• 19:59Dan Pashman?

  That's it? That's the total of the intro?

• 20:02Speaker 04

  Sure, why not? Let's go from there.

• 20:03Dan Pashman?

  All right, okay. All right, that's not a whole lot to go on. Rachel, you have five questions.

• 20:09Speaker 01

  Oh, yes. Okay, so the first one is, why Japanese-Mexican?

• 20:14Speaker 04

  So I had the inverse immigrant experience of many people here. I actually moved to Mexico when I was very young, and I learned English at home and Spanish at school. When I moved back to the States around 18, I ended up landing in Japanese kitchens. So it's kind of the marriage of the culture that I grew up with and then the professional discipline that I have just carried with me.

• 20:34Speaker 01

  Oh, this is very challenging because I have follow-up questions, Dan, and I can't ask them, can I?

• 20:38Dan Pashman?

  No, I don't think so. No, I mean, I mean, look, you can.

• 20:41Speaker 01

  And let's say count it as another question.

• 20:43Dan Pashman?

  Those will count. I mean, you know, when you start talking about multipart questions, those are a gray area in this game and also like...

• 20:49Speaker 01

  Chris has his own strategy, though, it's clear. Like, he's not overly talkative, Chris.

• 20:56Speaker 04

  Well, maybe a lot of people already know me, so I have to play it close to the vest.

• 21:01Speaker 01

  Interesting. Okay, that was not a question, by the way. That was just, I said a thing and he responded.

• 21:06Speaker 04

  That was a statement.

• 21:07Dan Pashman?

  Not a question, not a question. But all right, Rachel, question number two.

• 21:11Speaker 01

  Question number two. How'd you learn to cook?

• 21:16Speaker 04

  I grew up in the industry. My father is a chef. He's been so for far longer than I was ever alive. He originally had a bed and breakfast up in Maine, near Acadian National Park. And then eventually, he opened a restaurant down in Mexico as well. So I've just grown up on kitchen counters my whole life. I was bussing tables and then cutting vegetables and eventually just got into it as a full career. And I actually went to ACC Culinary here in Austin.

• 21:44Speaker 01

  So I lived in Japan for a couple of years, and I had a favorite ramen shop. What are the ingredients of the classic Japanese ramen?

• 21:55Speaker 04

  Well, that's a pretty wide question because there are a bunch of different styles of ramen. So let's go off of the one that most people here in America know, which is tonkotsu. And that's like a creamy pork-based broth.

• 22:08Speaker 04

  You have the broth itself, which is pork bone-based. You then have a tare, which translates to seasoning. That could be soy, miso, or salt. You then have an aromatic oil, and that would be like sesame oil or, you know, pork fat infused with green onions and ginger. Those are the three liquid components. From there, you have a noodle, you have your chashu, your protein, and all of your different allium or vegetable toppings and such.

• 22:34Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 22:35Dan Pashman?

  That's three questions down, Rachel. Two to go.

• 22:37Speaker 01

  Oh, is that three? Dang it. Okay. I feel a lot of pressure because there's so many other questions I have. All right, I'm just gonna say, I'm just gonna ask the questions that come into my mind. You said you ended up in a Japanese restaurant in America? Who hired you? And what's that person's story?

• 22:59Speaker 04

  So my very first kitchen job was actually at the Chipotle on Riverside here in Austin. And that obviously was a college, you know, starter job. And when I felt like I had outgrown it, I started applying to all sorts of kitchens, not necessarily Japanese. But the first one to accept me was a Japanese kitchen called Kome over on Airport Boulevard. And the Chef de Cuisine, the CDC at the time, was a man named Vince Guerra. And he actually became my professional mentor for the last three or four years, leading up to my own professional endeavors of owning my own business. But he taught me about discipline, structure. He's very much a general in the kitchen, and he taught me so much about how to lead

• 23:43Speaker 04

  others firmly but with respect. He's also an incredibly talented chef who's bounced around almost every Japanese restaurant I can think of in this town.

• 23:52Dan Pashman?

  All right, Rachel, last question. Lot of pressure on this choice.

• 23:56Speaker 01

  Oh, my God. Okay, my last question is, explain how cooking and owning a restaurant makes your life meaningful.

• 24:08Speaker 04

  Well, having grown up around food my entire life, it's always been a love language. And growing up specifically in a mom and pop shop type situation was at times very stressful. But food was always the one thing that kind of brought us together around the table. And, you know, now in my adult life, food is still something that brings me joy. And, you know, I'm really thankful and blessed to say that, you know, when you love what you do, you don't really feel like you work a day in your life. And as tolling and taxing as owning a business can be, I wouldn't trade it for anything in the world. I have so much fun sharing food and knowledge of food with the people around me and learning

• 24:52Speaker 04

  from those around me as well. And it's truly, you know, the thing that brings me the most joy in life. It is a huge, huge part of who I am.

• 25:03Speaker 01

  Okay. Thanks, Chris.

• 25:05Speaker 04

  Absolutely, thank you.

• 25:06Dan Pashman?

  Thank you, thank you so much, Chris.

• 25:11Dan Pashman?

  Rachel, we've got one more to go. We don't need to divulge your whole strategy here, but like, what are, give me one or two things that, that stand out from that conversation with Chris that might be pushing in one direction or another.

• 25:24Speaker 01

  My sister worked in restaurants for many, many years. I have other friends who own restaurants. It is really hard work, even when you love it. It's really hard. And he said something sort of counter to that, and so I am thinking about it.

• 25:44Dan Pashman?

  Interesting. All right. As you noted, he kept his answers short.

• 25:49Speaker 01

  He did.

• 25:50Dan Pashman?

  On one hand, maybe it's because he's afraid if he talks too much, he'll get caught in a lie.

• 25:55Speaker 01

  That's right.

• 25:56Dan Pashman?

  On the other hand, maybe he just came in with a strategy of like, I'm gonna... Trick Rachel, I'm gonna, I'm gonna act like I have something to hide.

• 26:05Speaker 01

  Oh, well now you're blowing my mind, Dan Pashman.

• 26:08Dan Pashman?

  Yeah, look, I mean, you could, you could read it either way.

• 26:11Speaker 01

  Do these people get prizes? Is there like an incentive? Like, I need to know how invested they are in winning.

• 26:16Dan Pashman?

  I think they're usually pretty invested. They might even be conspiring with each other.

• 26:20Speaker 01

  Oh, my God, that would be dirty.

• 26:23Speaker 01

  What if I get it wrong? I'm gonna be so embarrassed.

• 26:26Dan Pashman?

  You, you might. I look, I, in the early days of this game, I was the contestant and I would guess. Um, and I got it wrong. The first two or three years in a row, I got it wrong.

• 26:35Speaker 01

  Really?

• 26:36Dan Pashman?

  Yeah, and then I finally got it once or twice, and then we said, oh, let's mix it up. We'll have other people come in here. And last year, Rachel, we had Rachel Hampton, host of Normal Gossip on, and she also did not get it.

• 26:46Speaker 01

  Oh, good. Well, I'm in good company, and her name's Rachel.

• 26:48Dan Pashman?

  Yeah, that's absolutely right. Okay, time to meet our last chef in Austin. Let's bring on Yuki.

• 26:54Speaker 05

  Hi.

• 26:55Dan Pashman?

  Hi, how are you?

• 26:56Speaker 05

  Doing well. How are you doing today?

• 26:57Dan Pashman?

  Good. Say hi to my friend Rachel.

• 26:59Speaker 05

  Hi, Rachel. How are you doing?

• 27:00Speaker 01

  Hi, Yuki. I'm doing well. So nice to meet you.

• 27:03Speaker 05

  All right, nice to meet you too.

• 27:04Dan Pashman?

  All right, Yuki, let's hear your intro.

• 27:06Speaker 05

  All right, my name's Yuki. I'm the owner of Emmy, a Japanese restaurant located here in Austin.

• 27:11Speaker 01

  Another Japanese reference.

• 27:15Dan Pashman?

  Okay.

• 27:16Speaker 01

  Interesting.

• 27:17Dan Pashman?

  All right, Rachel, you have five questions.

• 27:20Speaker 01

  Yuki.

• 27:21Speaker 05

  Yes.

• 27:22Speaker 01

  What is natto?

• 27:24Speaker 05

  Natto is fermented soybean that has a very specific, uh, germ, bacteria, that was actually discovered on accident. If you want more details, uh, there's a farmer who was storing his soybeans, uh, somewhere, you know, on site in his farm. And, uh, he noticed that they took on a strange stickiness and strange smell, and he tried it. And, um, it was good, and it didn't kill him. And so we continue to make more Nato and all Nato that exists in the world today is comes from that original strain of that germ of Nato that has not been replicated or found anywhere else.

• 28:03Speaker 01

  Huh.

• 28:04Dan Pashman?

  That's fascinating, if it's true.

• 28:06Speaker 01

  If it's true.

• 28:08Dan Pashman?

  I liked your use of the classic interviewing technique, Rachel, of just not saying anything when the guest pauses awkwardly to get them to keep talking.

• 28:15Speaker 01

  Because I'm so afraid that you're gonna tell me that whatever I say is the equivalent of another question.

• 28:20Dan Pashman?

  I understand.

• 28:21Speaker 01

  So Yuki, I was...

• 28:22Dan Pashman?

  That was a good strat, though. Okay.

• 28:24Speaker 01

  I meant to agree, like, say more, and you just did it for me, which is great.

• 28:26Dan Pashman?

  Right. Okay, so that's one question down.

• 28:28Speaker 01

  Right. Okay, so second question. Can you tell me the story of your biggest restaurant failure? Or your biggest professional failure?

• 28:40Speaker 05

  My biggest professional failure? Let's see. When I first started training to become a chef, it was under Kohei Masense, who was the executive chef at Minato, a sushi restaurant here in Austin. And I've known Kohei Masense for quite a long time, but I was relatively new to his kitchen. And there was a particularly cold morning. He wasn't working in the kitchen, and we weren't really doing a whole lot of open flame stuff yet. So it was freezing, and I was all bundled up. And I just could not, I only had half a brain to think about what I was doing because the other half was just frozen. And I made so many mistakes in front of him.

• 29:23Speaker 05

  Like, I left a rice kama open, left drawers out, left out a cutting board, didn't clean a knife. And he sent me home, like, within about two hours. So that was pretty embarrassing. Things were fine after that, but it was, yeah, very embarrassing, and that kind of stuck with me for a while.

• 29:41Dan Pashman?

  And you haven't left a drawer open since?

• 29:44Speaker 05

  No.

• 29:46Dan Pashman?

  All right, that's two down, is that right? Am I keeping track correctly?

• 29:49Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's two down.

• 29:50Dan Pashman?

  Two down, okay.

• 29:50Speaker 01

  Okay, my next one, Yuki, you said, so you worked in the sushi restaurant. There is one piece of sushi that sushi chefs consider, like, that's how they get judged, is by how you make this one piece of sushi. What is it?

• 30:11Speaker 05

  Um, well, I don't head the sushi operations at Emmy, so I'm so sorry to my chef Ken if I get this wrong. But if I had to, oh, boy. I would say otoro, which is, um, yeah, the fatty bluefin. I'd say that's probably one of the more pricey, more quality items. And if you don't get that right, then your best item is not really worth much.

• 30:42Speaker 01

  Uh huh. I gotta say, your Japanese accent is on point.

• 30:47Speaker 05

  Thank you, I am fluent.

• 30:48Speaker 01

  Oh.

• 30:49Speaker 05

  As is necessary.

• 30:50Speaker 01

  So good.

• 30:51Speaker 05

  Oh, arigato.

• 30:52Speaker 01

  Jozu desu ne.

• 30:54Speaker 05

  Tooti no koso.

• 30:56Speaker 01

  Oh, God, he really can't speak Japanese. That's the extent of mine.

• 31:00Dan Pashman?

  Rachel's out of material.

• 31:02Speaker 01

  That's it, the end.

• 31:03Dan Pashman?

  Yeah.

• 31:04Speaker 01

  Okay, number four. Were your parents supportive of your restaurant pursuit?

• 31:11Speaker 05

  Uh, yeah, I think so, definitely my mother. She's one who taught me to cook at a very young age. And then I've been working in food service for pretty much my whole life. I did have a brief stint as an accountant. And I was working at a public accounting firm in Atlanta, and then an internal auditor when I moved back here to Austin. And I think they probably hoped I'd keep, um, keep in the corporate accounting world just because that's more stable, pays better, you know, less stressful in general. But, um, because I wanted to specifically get into making Japanese food, I think my mom found, um, you know, some comfort in that me carrying on the culture and legacy there.

• 31:52Speaker 01

  Okay, my last question. I know you're not going to be able to tick all of them off, but usually, I think in a restaurant, the back of the house has like a checklist of things to do before you shut down. What's on your checklist?

• 32:07Speaker 05

  Well, prep work for the next day, if we're including that on the checklist, restocking everything, all our, you know, little, what do you call it? Yeah, just prep vegetables, ramekins, we call it koake. It's when we just take things that come in bulk and then separate into smaller, more manageable things that we can store individually.

• 32:30Speaker 01

  Uh huh.

• 32:31Speaker 05

  Of course, cleaning, cleaning the kammas that we use to cook the rice, very important, wiping them dry. Yeah, wiping all surfaces down, including the sink, completely dry. Make sure everything's hung up and put away in its right place so that when we come in, we can just get right to it.

• 32:48Speaker 01

  Okay, Yuki.

• 32:49Dan Pashman?

  All right.

• 32:50Speaker 01

  Dozo arigatou gozaimashita.

• 32:52Speaker 05

  Arigatou gozaimasu. Thank you very much, Rachel. Thank you, Dan.

• 32:55Dan Pashman?

  Thank you, Yuki. Please return to our virtual waiting room. And Rachel, Yuki, you know, you complimented his accent. Obviously, he speaks Japanese, but that doesn't necessarily mean that he runs a Japanese restaurant. He may just be Japanese American and he grew up speaking Japanese. He may even have spent time in Japan. Maybe he has family or friends there.

• 33:16Speaker 01

  The Natto story was very good.

• 33:18Dan Pashman?

  That was very convincing. That was very convincing. But then the last one, he kind of hesitated when it came to the checklist of the...

• 33:24Speaker 01

  I just feel like those things are more specific.

• 33:26Dan Pashman?

  Yeah. Well, listen, I think, I think that, you know...

• 33:30Speaker 01

  Has the time come?

• 33:31Dan Pashman?

  There are strong cases to be made in either direction. We're gonna take one more quick break. When we come back, Rachel will make her choice and the liar will be revealed. Stick around.

• 33:48Speaker 06

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• 34:38Speaker 07

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• 34:48Speaker 07

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• 34:53Dan Pashman?

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• 35:17Dan Pashman?

  We're just about to get back to the show, but I want to let you know real quick that one spot just opened up in my Italy trip this October. We had a last minute cancellation. We always have solo travelers on these trips. It's a very friendly group. They always have a blast. So come eat pasta in Rome and Puglia. If you want to scoop up that last spot, go to culinarybackstreets.com/sporful. All right.

• 35:46Dan Pashman?

  Welcome back to the Sporful's annual game show, Two Chefs and a Lot.

• 35:53Dan Pashman?

  Rachel Martin. We're just about at that time. We had three chefs who joined us. First, we had Vera, who claims to have four restaurants. She used some terminology like U-10 scallops and saum for sommelier, and she referenced romesco, which sounds impressive to me.

• 36:13Speaker 01

  Very fancy.

• 36:14Dan Pashman?

  She also had a long pause when asked to talk about her biggest failure. She had to think about that one. Then there was Chris, who has a Japanese Mexican ramen place. His answers were kind of short, which could mean that he's lying or it could mean that he's trying to throw you off. And then finally, Rachel, we had Yuki, who has a Japanese restaurant, knew a whole lot about the history of Nato, but also hesitated a bit when asked to talk about the details of running a kitchen and what's on the list at the end of a night. So now that you've heard from them all, unpack your strategy for me.

• 36:51Speaker 01

  I think specificity equals truth most of the time. And like obscure specifics. And of course, you can prepare all this in advance. But like Vera's story, yeah, she had a pause before her biggest failure. Like it took her a second to conjure that. But then the story included a reference to certified male. That is so random. That is, that is so weird. Like if I'm trying to like make up a story on the spot of my biggest failure, I just don't know if I could conjure the detail certified male. Like it just felt that I was like, that is interesting.

• 37:32Dan Pashman?

  Okay.

• 37:33Speaker 01

  Um, so.

• 37:34Dan Pashman?

  So in general, you were looking for specifics, but you said, you said specifics, you know, specificity, it tells you a lot, but it doesn't necessarily tell you everything.

• 37:42Speaker 01

  A lot of what I do in interviewing people is also listen to the performance of their storytelling, right? Like just how true does it feel? Like, do you feel like they're really inhabiting their words? Are, are the specifics that they sharing, do they feel like something that they've memorized? And a pause is a normal thing. And we take pauses all the time. Like I just took one just now. And so if you're overly prepared and you're prepared with all these specifics, then that might, that might signal something.

• 38:17Dan Pashman?

  Almost if, if the specifics are coming too fast.

• 38:20Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 38:20Dan Pashman?

  Too easily. It almost seems like it's scripted.

• 38:23Speaker 01

  Yes, yes.

• 38:24Dan Pashman?

  Interesting. Oh, another part of your strategy that stood out from prior years when we played this game is that you also asked some, some kind of big, sweeping, deep questions. I, I love the question about like, tell me your manager at your fourth restaurant's life story. Like that, that was good.

• 38:42Speaker 01

  Thanks, Dan.

• 38:45Dan Pashman?

  I'm not sure if it unlocked the truth about this game.

• 38:48Speaker 01

  I don't know how generative was because you could just like super impose the identity of a friend onto that answer.

• 38:54Dan Pashman?

  Sort of like deep existential, as you would as the host of Wild Card, you ask some deep existential questions. So, so don't tell me yet, Rachel, but have you made your choice? Okay. Okay, we're now going to have a brief musical interlude to allow our listeners to make their final decisions.

• 39:28Dan Pashman?

  All right, time is up. The choices have been made. Rachel, who do you think the liar is?

• 39:36Speaker 01

  I think the liar is Yuki.

• 39:43Dan Pashman?

  Ooh. That's not what I was, that was not what I, so, so go on. Explain your logic.

• 39:51Speaker 01

  Well, I could be totally wrong on this.

• 39:54Dan Pashman?

  That's all right.

• 39:55Speaker 01

  I really will be embarrassed. But I, I think that sushi chefs measure themselves by the tamago, which is the sweetened egg that is placed on the little thing of rice. Like, that is, and it's counterintuitive because it's not fish. But for some reason, this was like drilled into my brain when I lived in Japan. And I'm not a connoisseur of Japanese cuisine or chef. But I feel like that would be a basic thing that you would know. I will be highly embarrassed if that's totally not true. And I made this decision based on that. But there were other tells, there were other tells.

• 40:32Dan Pashman?

  Other tells, yes.

• 40:33Speaker 01

  Um, I thought his natto story came too quickly. Like, that's an example of, it was just, I don't know. And he just like knew the history of it in a way that I honestly don't know that, that a chef would necessarily know. It's, it's someone who maybe looked it up. I don't know. Um, what else, what else did I write down here?

• 40:56Dan Pashman?

  Rachel's consulting her reporter's notebook.

• 40:59Speaker 01

  I'm consulting my reporters. Oh, I wrote down that his failure was unconvincing.

• 41:05Dan Pashman?

  Hmm.

• 41:06Speaker 01

  Um, in a whole professional career as a restaurant owner. Like, again, I just know, the failures are fiery and dramatic and you have a lot. There's so much failure.

• 41:19Dan Pashman?

  It's not like, oh, I left my cutting board out.

• 41:21Speaker 01

  No, it's not.

• 41:22Dan Pashman?

  It was in front of this very famous chef and I can get that might be embarrassing. It didn't feel like a big enough failure in an industry when there's- Where there's, no matter how great you are, there's a lot of failure.

• 41:33Speaker 01

  Yeah, and chefs are usually very forthcoming about those big stories. You know, because they have part of their whole thing if they're being, they want people to know that, how hard it was to get where they are.

• 41:43Dan Pashman?

  Right.

• 41:44Speaker 01

  And so I feel like that wasn't very convincing.

• 41:47Dan Pashman?

  Okay, all right, well, so Rachel picks Yuki. All right, the Zoom camera is on, we can now see our three quote unquote chefs in Austin. Would the liar please reveal yourself?

• 42:02Speaker 05

  Hi, my name's Yuki D. Soza, I'm a comedian.

• 42:04Dan Pashman?

  Oh, Rachel got it, ding ding ding ding ding ding ding.

• 42:08Speaker 01

  Because I was gonna feel so bad for calling you a liar if you weren't actually a liar.

• 42:13Speaker 05

  I'm not a very good liar, you got me.

• 42:15Dan Pashman?

  You were good, I actually, you know, I was gonna, my money was on Chris.

• 42:21Speaker 01

  No, but you know what, you then said, I was like, Chris, what up? You're not even talking, and then you're the one who said, what if that was the strat? To not talk, and then that kind of got in my head.

• 42:31Dan Pashman?

  Okay, but I just felt, you know, you know why I was leaning Chris? I wrote down in my notes, first of all, he talked about food as a love language, which is a cliche. And he also said, when you love what you do, you don't work a day in your life, which is another cliche. Two cliches from Chris, which look, maybe.

• 42:47Speaker 01

  That is true.

• 42:48Speaker 02

  That is true.

• 42:49Dan Pashman?

  A lot of cliches are true, but still, like, you know, it felt a little bit like on the nose.

• 42:54Speaker 01

  Also, I just, as I said earlier, it's just so hard that the idea that it never feels like work, I was just like, Chris.

• 43:02Speaker 04

  Oh, I'm physically exhausted 24/7, I just still like it.

• 43:05Dan Pashman?

  Okay, all right, all right, all right. So, right, I think we, I think we were easily convinced by Vera, but the other two were on the fence.

• 43:13Speaker 01

  Interesting.

• 43:14Dan Pashman?

  So, so let's hear briefly from all three of our, of our guests. So, Yuki, you're a comedian, you're, do you do improv as well?

• 43:21Speaker 05

  Yes, I do improv, there's a small wrinkle, I do my day job, I work part-time in a Japanese grocery store. So, I know my Japanese groceries.

• 43:29Dan Pashman?

  All right, that's, that's fair, though, I think you're still eligible to be our liar.

• 43:33Speaker 05

  Knowing about the history of not doing.

• 43:35Speaker 01

  Oh, that's how you know.

• 43:37Dan Pashman?

  Oh, God, God, okay, very good.

• 43:39Speaker 01

  That's great, that was very detailed and specific.

• 43:41Dan Pashman?

  Yuki, where can people see you perform?

• 43:43Speaker 05

  They can see me perform at Fallout Theater. They can find my Instagram at the underscore Yookster. That's Y O O K S T E R.

• 43:52Dan Pashman?

  All right. And Vera, what are the names of your four restaurants?

• 43:55Speaker 02

  Yeah. So I own La Revue, Woodfire Kitchen. I have two locations. I own Soviet. It's a French inspired steakhouse. And I also own Three West Ale House and Grill. So I do a little bit of all kind of cuisine.

• 44:12Dan Pashman?

  And all those are in the Austin area?

• 44:14Speaker 02

  Yes, they're north of Austin. Two of them in Georgetown and two in Temple, Texas. Awesome.

• 44:19Dan Pashman?

  Okay. And Chris, what's the name and location of your restaurant?

• 44:22Speaker 04

  So I own Ramen del Barrio. And that is in North Austin, near the Q2 Stadium.

• 44:28Dan Pashman?

  It sounds like North Austin's the place to be.

• 44:30Speaker 02

  The place to eat.

• 44:30Dan Pashman?

  That's where all the good food is.

• 44:31Speaker 04

  Much cheaper rent than downtown.

• 44:33Dan Pashman?

  Okay, all right.

• 44:34Speaker 02

  Less crowded.

• 44:36Dan Pashman?

  All right. Vera, Chris and Yuki, thank you all so much for joining us for this edition of Two Chefs Set Alive.

• 44:46Dan Pashman?

  So Rachel, first time out of the gate and you nailed it. How do you feel?

• 44:50Speaker 01

  I feel very proud of myself. I'm not gonna lie. I will not lie.

• 44:55Dan Pashman?

  Consider that when we started this game, you you looked at me and said, I have no idea what this is. I have no idea what's going on.

• 45:01Speaker 01

  I had no idea, but I also set the expectations high. I was like, I'm really good at like human nature and I can deduce when someone's pulling my leg.

• 45:09Dan Pashman?

  And you did. And you did. All right, well, Rachel Martin hosts the excellent podcast Wild Car from NPR. It's one of my very favorite podcasts. Please listen to it if you don't listen already. If you've listened already, keep listening to it. Rachel Martin, always a blast. Thanks so much.

• 45:25Speaker 01

  Oh, my God, this was so, so fun. Thank you for having me.

• 45:30Dan Pashman?

  Next week on the show, perfect for summer, we've got an ice cream truck extravaganza. We'll tell the story of the ice cream truck kingpins of post-war Southern California. And I'll hang out with a guy who drives a local ice cream truck where I live. Plus, I'll pitch him on some Sunday ideas of my own. That's next week. While you wait for that one, check out last week's episode with food writer Jason Diamond, in which we ask, is it possible to go on GLP? Ones and still love food? That one's up now, check it out. And hey, did you know you can listen to The Sporkful on the SiriusXM app? Yes, the SiriusXM app, it has all your favorite podcasts, plus over 200 ad-free music channels curated by genre and era, plus live sports coverage. Does your podcasting app have that? And there's interviews with A-list stars and so much more.

• 46:12Dan Pashman?

  It's everything you want in a podcast app and music app all rolled into one. And right now, Sporkful listeners can get three months free of the SiriusXM app by going to siriusxm.com/sporkful.

• 46:26Dan Pashman?

  This episode was produced by me, along with managing producer-

• 46:29Speaker 07

  Emma Morgenstern.

• 46:29Dan Pashman?

  And senior producer-

• 46:30Speaker 06

  Andres O'Hara.

• 46:31Dan Pashman?

  It was edited by-

• 46:32Speaker 07

  Camille Stanley.

• 46:33Dan Pashman?

  Our technical director is- Jared O'Connell. Music help from Black Label Music. Miss Sporkful is a production of SiriusXM Podcasts. Our executive producer is Camille Stanley. Until next time, I'm Dan Pash.

• 46:43Speaker 06

  And I'm Jason Griselle from Houston, Texas, reminding you to eat more, eat better, and eat more better.

• 47:01Dan Pashman?

  Hey, it's Dan here. Thank you so much, first of all, for tuning into The Sporkful every week. We really appreciate it. And I want to let you know, if you want to hear new episodes ad-free, subscribe to SiriusXM Podcasts Plus on Apple Podcasts, or visit siriusxm.com/podcastsplus to listen with Spotify or another app of your choice. Thanks.