The Triumph of ‘The Odyssey,’ and the Christopher Nolan Movie Rankings

Movies are back! On today’s show, Sean and Amanda are joined by Chris Ryan to bask in the glorious commercial and cultural success of Christopher Nolan’s ‘The Odyssey.’ Before diving in, they react to myriad movie news headlines, including the first trailer for ‘Avengers: Doomsday,’ the Paramount and Warner Bros. merger being paused, some fall film festival updates, and much more. Then, they sort through the dominant opening weekend box office performance of ‘The Odyssey’ and break down the film at length by discussing some of CR’s main takeaways. Finally, they embark on the overwhelming challenge of ranking every movie from Nolan’s filmography. (0:00) Intro (0:54) Summer movie mailbag (1:52) ‘Avengers: Doomsday’ trailer reaction (10:50) Paramount-Warner Bros. merger has been paused (12:40) Fall film festival updates (17:55) Ryan Coogler’s ‘X-Files’ reboot pilot shot on 65mm film (19:15) Edward Berger making the next ‘Bourne’ movie with Matt Damon (22:20) Rachel Cusk is writing a novel about Natalie Portman (24:30) ‘The Odyssey’ smashes its opening weekend, and CR’s takeaways (1:13:14) Our relationship to Christopher Nolan in 2026 (1:22:32) The Christopher Nolan movie rankings Hosts: Sean Fennessey and Amanda Dobbins Guest: Chris Ryan Producer: Jack Sanders Production Support: Lucas Cavanagh It’s on Prime. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

  I'm pro football Hall of Famer Brian Dawkins, and I lived for a long time with something I did not know the name of: major depressive disorder. I carried sadness and anger because I thought I could handle it alone, but I couldn't. Now I want to make sure others know that that support is out there. If you're experiencing similar symptoms, talk to a healthcare professional. Visit mddallies.com to watch my story.

• 0:25Speaker 01

  Paid partnership with Johnson & Johnson. Brian Dawkins has not prescribed Caplyta lumateperone.

• 0:37Speaker 02

  I needed more from my antidepressant, so my doctor added Caplyta lumateperone, proven to provide greater relief from depression symptoms than an antidepressant alone, building on my progress without starting over. Caplyta is for adults with major depressive disorder when used with an antidepressant and is available by prescription only. Individual results may vary. In clinical trials, weight gain was not common.

• 0:57Speaker 01

  Elderly dementia patients have increased risk of death or stroke. Caplyta is not approved for dementia-related psychosis. Call your doctor about new or sudden mood changes, behaviors, or suicidal thoughts right away. Antidepressants may increase these risks. Report fever, confusion, stiff muscles, which may be life-threatening, or uncontrolled muscle movements, which may be permanent. High cholesterol and weight gain may occur, as can high blood sugar, which may be fatal. Monitoring is recommended. Common side effects are sleepiness, dizziness, nausea, dry mouth, feeling tired, and diarrhea. These aren't all the side effects.

• 1:24Speaker 02

  Ask your doctor about Caplyta. Learn more at caplyta.com or call 888-252-4824.

• 1:46Sean Fennessey?

  I'm Sean Fennessey.

• 1:46Amanda Dobbins?

  I'm Amanda Dobbins.

• 1:47Sean Fennessey?

  And this is The Big Picture, a conversation show about The Odyssey. CR is here to share his thoughts on Christopher Nolan's extraordinary film sensation, and then he will help us rank the entire Nolan filmography. But first, talk about some movie news right after this.

• 2:04Sean Fennessey?

  This episode of The Big Picture is presented by Amazon Prime. One of the best things about streaming is that you never just pick a title, you pick a feeling. And Prime makes that easy. With great entertainment and fast shipping that brings the moment to life, Prime helps you experience the feeling you're craving, shows you can't wait for, and deliveries you don't wait for, one click away. From streaming to fast shipping, it's on Prime.

• 2:24Sean Fennessey?

  Okay, CR, you knew today was going to be an important day.

• 2:28Speaker 05

  That's why I wore my A's hat, because the A is for mentalias. You know what I mean?

• 2:32Sean Fennessey?

  I don't know what that means. I'm gonna do a quick programming reminder, though, for the listeners before we turn it over to your big feelings.

• 2:38Amanda Dobbins?

  Is this a reminder or an announcement?

• 2:39Sean Fennessey?

  It's an announcement that will serve as a reminder for people who watch it twice on social media. That reminder is we're doing a mailbag later this week. We want to hear your crazy theories on The Odyssey, the box office, the summer movie slate so far. Spider-Man? Spider-Man is coming out soon.

• 2:54Speaker 05

  BND.

• 2:55Sean Fennessey?

  Yeah. BND.

• 2:56Amanda Dobbins?

  Brand new day, sure.

• 2:57Sean Fennessey?

  Brand new day. Well, where should people send their questions?

• 3:00Amanda Dobbins?

  [email protected]. I'd like to amend very briefly what he said. We want to hear your crazy theories within reason, and we'd like them to be phrased in the form of a question.

• 3:15Amanda Dobbins?

  Long essays will not be read on thebigpicture.com.

• 3:19Sean Fennessey?

  Okay, thank you, Amanda. All right. Doomsday. This is why you're here, actually.

• 3:26Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 3:26Sean Fennessey?

  The gods knew, Athena knew, that they would release The Avengers Doomsday trailer, and it is here now. I'll preface this by saying, the exact trailer that was released, Amanda and I watched four months ago in a giant coliseum in Las Vegas.

• 3:39Amanda Dobbins?

  Twice.

• 3:40Speaker 05

  You've been sitting on this.

• 3:41Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah, I think we've said a lot of rude things in reference to it over the last four months. Or three, whatever.

• 3:48Speaker 05

  I said this, so I don't want to repeat myself, but I do want to bounce some things off of you. I don't want to repeat myself from The Watch Podcast, which is another show I do.

• 3:55Sean Fennessey?

  What? You're on another podcast?

• 3:59Speaker 05

  Do you think they meant to release this on the Monday after The Odyssey?

• 4:08Speaker 05

  You think they were like, "There's a lot of energy in theaters now? Let's get in on it when we can."

• 4:13Sean Fennessey?

  Yeah, we're tongue-tied.

• 4:14Amanda Dobbins?

  I have been mystified by every single step of what is going on here. I mean, and you could say that about everything having to do with The Avengers since the, you know, the first one, which I thought was rather charming. But from the moment that we were in Vegas, where there were a large number of fans. I have never been to Comic-Con, which starts this weekend, and which is, I think, the reason that they programmed this trailer. But there was what I imagined to be a Comic-Con vibe in the room at CinemaCon, which is historically a trade show for people who own movie theaters. And longtime CinemaCon goers all observed that this was a little weird. Sean and I did not respond to it in the room.

• 4:59Speaker 05

  You think they were plants?

• 5:00Amanda Dobbins?

  I'm just saying that the energy was different.

• 5:03Sean Fennessey?

  It was more that they had invited a lot of influencers and a lot of friendly voices towards the Marvel product. And those people responded in kind in the room and were cheering. And I'm sure that this morning, there were some people who absolutely love Marvel who were cheering. However, the reaction is definitely different than it was three years ago, five years ago, nine years ago for movies like this, just online, just online. And maybe you can say that's not real, but when we saw it, we were like, "Ooh, this is kind of sad."

• 5:28Speaker 05

  Have they done a teaser?

• 5:30Amanda Dobbins?

  Didn't they play it twice?

• 5:31Sean Fennessey?

  They did.

• 5:31Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah, because Robert Downey Jr. was there in some sort of sparkle suit and was kind of like fake working the crowd, like, "Do you want to see it again?" And then all the influencers were like, "Yeah." And then I wanted to leave for my flight, but... Have they done a teaser for this? Did I forget?

• 5:47Sean Fennessey?

  There were four individual teasers that came at the end of last year, where they showed sort of separate characters reflecting on wherever their lives are going. I mean, in this trailer, we see a large number of characters that people are very familiar with, a kind of collision of the most recent phase of Marvel storytelling, the more classic phases, one through three Avengers characters, and then a lot of the Fox characters, especially X-Men characters, all of whom will be meeting up to battle Doctor Doom, who is going to be portrayed by Robert Downey Jr.

• 6:15Speaker 05

  They went with The Voice. They went with Count Chocula.

• 6:18Sean Fennessey?

  They are doing some sort of West German 1979 accent. You know, Werner Herzog is Doctor Doom. And, you know, that's cool. I guess if Downey's giving a performance, that's better than just running back, "Tony Stark is Doctor Doom." But the movie itself, the reports on the ground have been not strong about the state of the script throughout the shooting process.

• 6:42Sean Fennessey?

  Marvel feels cooked. I don't know what to say. It just feels completely cooked.

• 6:46Speaker 05

  I would just say that, like, I'm joking about the Odyssey thing, but I'm not, because most people went and saw The Odyssey this weekend, and then they wake up and they watch this on their phone or on their computer or whatever. And they're probably like, "That's not a movie." This isn't, this doesn't look like what we're capable of as people with cameras. Like, this looks like you guys shot this in the back of a Lowe's and turned the lights off and...

• 7:13Sean Fennessey?

  Like Backrooms?

• 7:14Speaker 05

  Yeah. But like, honestly, dude, you know what? Backrooms makes this look like shit. You know what I mean? Visual imagination of this entire project needs to be rethought and remixed and redone. And we can keep doing Kevin Feige really likes La Strada and like all that shit. And maybe I'll be proved wrong, or maybe like this is actually the lowest of expectations at this point. I don't really have a problem with necessarily the group of people that they like presented as stakeholders in this movie, like Namor and, you know, Yelena and Shuri. Like, it's bracing, because I think we're used to seeing The Hulk and Captain America, who get like a brief moment with Thor and all these guys.

• 7:57Speaker 05

  But man, it just doesn't look, literally look good.

• 8:01Sean Fennessey?

  You weren't bought in on the Gambit versus Shang-Chi showdown that no one ever asked for?

• 8:05Speaker 05

  I really like Channing Tatum. The Gambit thing is actually kind of sad to me.

• 8:08Sean Fennessey?

  It's a little corny. Yeah, it's a little corny.

• 8:10Speaker 05

  It is kind of sad.

• 8:11Amanda Dobbins?

  I was thinking very gleefully this morning about The Odyssey's position in relationship to Comic-Con, which will be this weekend, and how we already had our own Comic-Con, and it was this weekend with people at 2:00 a.m., you know, bartering on the streets for their tickets to 70mm IMAX, which, you know, is its own thing. But the fan culture, the enthusiasm, the nerding out totally moved to The Odyssey in a way that I'm thrilled about.

• 8:41Speaker 05

  Is there like three translations or in the top 10 of Amazon right now? Or something like that?

• 8:45Sean Fennessey?

  I think there's just a very simple explanation for the very apparent vibe shift, which is that the first Avengers film, which was, what, 2012? I mean, that's almost 15 years ago now. So everybody who was really young and excited about those movies at that time is just older and presumably has matured beyond that being the center of their life culturally. And so if that's the case, then I think The Avengers Doomsday is going to be very successful financially. I think, I don't think it's going to be massive. And that's the, that will be the most interesting thing. Like, if this is less than a billion-dollar movie or less than a $1.5 billion movie, maybe we'll make that the benchmark. That's fascinating because this is as big a movie as they can make. The problem that I had with it that I think I said at the time when we first saw it was more like,

• 9:30Sean Fennessey?

  what is the story? Like, what was so wonderful to me about Infinity War and Endgame was the incredible buildup over a decade of storytelling. We've never seen Doctor Doom.

• 9:43Speaker 05

  I think that they're just in a lot of trouble with the multiversal storytelling. The Bendis version of Secret Wars, like, all this stuff with, like, Earth 616, like, is really cool in comic book form, as evidenced by Amanda's facial expression right now.

• 9:58Amanda Dobbins?

  I was honestly just trying to remember if we've seen Galactus yet. Are you gonna say Galactus? Is that Secret Wars?

• 10:04Sean Fennessey?

  I think it sounds like he's been vanquished. He was in Fantastic Four.

• 10:06Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 10:07Amanda Dobbins?

  Oh, I forgot that.

• 10:08Sean Fennessey?

  You completely forgot about that.

• 10:09Amanda Dobbins?

  I saw that film.

• 10:10Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 10:12Sean Fennessey?

  Invisible Woman, like, knocked him down because she put her hands out in the air. Remember when that happened? That was how the-

• 10:18Amanda Dobbins?

  We didn't see him eating any planets, right? That's what he does. Or universes, galaxies.

• 10:22Sean Fennessey?

  He eats planets.

• 10:23Speaker 05

  He eats planets.

• 10:24Sean Fennessey?

  Yeah.

• 10:24Speaker 05

  The Silver Surfer is his harbinger.

• 10:27Sean Fennessey?

  That's right.

• 10:27Amanda Dobbins?

  Why are you so mad at me for engaging with your content?

• 10:31Speaker 05

  No, I just think-

• 10:32Amanda Dobbins?

  You talked about Galactus once on The Watch, like, five years ago, and I heard you, and I listened, and I remembered.

• 10:40Sean Fennessey?

  Why didn't you stand up for Julia Garner as Silver Surfer, the way that you set up for all of Nolan's work casting?

• 10:44Speaker 05

  I don't know where I was during the entire Fantastic Four thing. Was I in Europe? Like, what happened? I feel like I missed, like, I didn't talk about it. I think Andy talked about it with Lindelof on our show. Like, I don't, I never got to comment.

• 10:55Sean Fennessey?

  You must have been on vacation. That was a classic thing where-

• 10:57Amanda Dobbins?

  Late summer.

• 10:58Sean Fennessey?

  I, when we saw that movie, I was like, mm, it's over. Like, I know, and they, they really want this to work, and they tried a couple of different things, and, you know, those super fans screamed at us after the first week of release, and then the movie just disappeared. It's like that movie never happened. Nobody cares about that movie. They don't care about the characters, like, and those characters are pretty critical to a big movie like this because you're supposed to get invested in the way that you're saying with this new crew.

• 11:19Speaker 05

  There may be another trailer for this movie that comes out that everybody's like, oh, that's the one. Like, this, now I'm excited, but this feels like this movie will have to be the Infinity War to Secret Wars Endgame, right? Like, and that there will be a setup and a payoff, but I really liked Infinity War because Infinity War had, like, this kind of, like, moment of shock and awe to it.

• 11:41Sean Fennessey?

  Yeah. And I don't know if- Incredible ending.

• 11:43Speaker 05

  I don't know if Namor in Distress is gonna do the same thing that Infinity War did, but, but, you know.

• 11:50Sean Fennessey?

  We shall see.

• 11:51Amanda Dobbins?

  And also, it's still dated for the same day as Dune 3. What is going on?

• 11:57Sean Fennessey?

  It seems like they're just sticking to it.

• 11:58Amanda Dobbins?

  My tip line is open. If anybody wants to just call me secretly and explain what's going on, I don't understand.

• 12:04Sean Fennessey?

  They have Infinity Vision. This will be releasing in Infinity Vision. Will you be seeing it in Infinity Vision?

• 12:10Speaker 05

  I'll see it in whichever way Christopher Nolan tells me I should be watching it.

• 12:14Sean Fennessey?

  I don't think he'll be commenting on Dune 3.

• 12:15Speaker 05

  I don't think so. You can't see the top of Eggman on his head.

• 12:20Sean Fennessey?

  Okay, I mean, maybe we're varying the lead by talking about this next, but just before we started recording, there was an announcement that a judge was pausing the Paramount Warner Brothers merger, and a temporary restraining order was instilled for 14 days by the 12 states that are attempting to block this merger.

• 12:40Sean Fennessey?

  What do you think this means? Do you think that this means that there is a chance that Rob Bonta and the rest of the states that are attempting to block it are gonna have any success?

• 12:48Amanda Dobbins?

  No, my district appellate Supreme Court knowledge is fairly rusty, but I assume there's an appeals process in this. And I, as I understand it, appeals processes ultimately end up at the Supreme Court, and as we all know, that's going very well in the United States.

• 13:02Sean Fennessey?

  What's going on there?

• 13:03Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah, they're just, it's, it's good work, you know?

• 13:05Sean Fennessey?

  Who's your favorite Supreme Court Justice, Chris? Not all time currently.

• 13:11Sean Fennessey?

  Gorsuch?

• 13:12Speaker 05

  Well, he's interesting.

• 13:16Speaker 05

  His, because, like, his whole thing with, like, Native Americans is really, like, it's a curveball.

• 13:21Sean Fennessey?

  He stands on business with one issue. Yeah.

• 13:24Speaker 05

  I would say that I have learned not to get my hopes up over the last couple of years. I would also say that I don't even know at this point what's best for Hollywood. You know, like, is a Warner Brothers where, like, David Zaslove has taken, like, multiple payouts over the last nine months, gonna be able to function without Paramount at this point? Would Netflix need to come back in and save it, like?

• 13:46Sean Fennessey?

  I definitely think it would just go back on the board and somebody else would buy it. That would be my guess. I don't think this means this is not gonna happen, though, and I think you're right, that if it starts going up the ladder, this is just a pause. This isn't even a rejection.

• 13:57Speaker 05

  Yeah, it's like 14 days for everybody to get, like, their, their documents in order.

• 14:00Amanda Dobbins?

  It's a cool off.

• 14:01Sean Fennessey?

  It's a cool off, yeah.

• 14:02Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 14:03Sean Fennessey?

  Does seem to be delaying the inevitable.

• 14:04Amanda Dobbins?

  Write the email, but don't send it till tomorrow.

• 14:07Sean Fennessey?

  It's a dangerous move.

• 14:10Sean Fennessey?

  Okay, a few more items of news. Lots of festival stuff still coming down the transom here. So Danny Boyle, the film that was announced to be the opening film of the Venice Film Festival, which you were very excited about last week, was acquired by Netflix. You said what?

• 14:22Amanda Dobbins?

  I say Alberto knows where his bread is buttered.

• 14:25Sean Fennessey?

  Yes, truly, truly.

• 14:26Speaker 05

  Who's Alberto?

• 14:26Amanda Dobbins?

  He runs the Venice Film Festival, and they are historically, they, unlike Cannes, accept Netflix festivals, and Netflix uses Venice very frequently as a launching pad for its glitzier, awards-driven films.

• 14:39Speaker 05

  Alberto is kind of your Galactus.

• 14:40Amanda Dobbins?

  Sure, exactly.

• 14:42Sean Fennessey?

  When will you go to the Venice Film Festival?

• 14:44Speaker 05

  I don't know. I don't really know if that's in my future, you know? I'm more of a boots-on-the-ground guy domestically, but like, when I go to Europe, it's time off.

• 14:52Amanda Dobbins?

  But you said, until Toronto, anyway, that you enjoy traveling with me. And also, we have a travel business to get off the ground. I don't know if you remember this.

• 15:00Sean Fennessey?

  Is this something that was discussed?

• 15:01Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah, he's in charge of the history and the tours, and I'm doing the logistics and the planning.

• 15:07Speaker 05

  She does curation and, like, you know, what's-

• 15:08Amanda Dobbins?

  You don't remember this on the walk home from Chinese food?

• 15:11Sean Fennessey?

  I think I was very drunk.

• 15:12Speaker 05

  I'm able to really, like, distill, here's what you need to know about Toronto, into like a paragraph.

• 15:17Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah.

• 15:18Sean Fennessey?

  I was too busy marveling at the Rivoli. That was what I was doing while you guys were on that walk. I just wanted to mention, I give Netflix a pretty hard time when it comes to their film slate on this show, but I did take a look at the movies that I think are meant to come out this year from the studio, and it's a pretty cool list, and it dovetails a bit with some of this festival conversation, but Cliff Booth, obviously. Brad Bird's long in the making Ray Gun, which is an animated film.

• 15:40Speaker 05

  You have this written down as Bard Bird, which I think would have changed his whole life.

• 15:44Sean Fennessey?

  That's Travis Scott's film, yeah. La Bola Negra, which I saw at Cannes, which is one of the big awards contenders this year. Lee Chong Dong's Possible Love, which it sounds like will be at Venice this year, in addition to premiering at other film festivals.

• 15:56Speaker 05

  Yeah, what's up?

• 15:57Sean Fennessey?

  Your beloved Ben Affleck's Animals. It sounds like it's happening this year. Roman Gobres's Sacrifice, which was picked up out of TIFF last year. Greg Quedar's new movie, Saturn Return. He's the guy who made Sing Sing.

• 16:08Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 16:09Sean Fennessey?

  Here Comes the Flood, we've talked about a few times, the Pattinson-Denzel movie.

• 16:12Speaker 05

  Bobby and Denzel.

• 16:13Sean Fennessey?

  Yeah, Lena Dunham's Good Sex. Peter Berg's The Mosquito Bowl, which is a sports drama. Your boy Pete Berg.

• 16:19Speaker 05

  What is it about?

• 16:20Sean Fennessey?

  I think it's a football game. Yeah. And you're, also your boy Janis Metz, Peterson's Unabomber biopic.

• 16:28Speaker 05

  Is my boy Janis Metz or Unabomber?

• 16:30Amanda Dobbins?

  I mean-

• 16:31Sean Fennessey?

  Well, what do you think? Could be both. I mean, those are all-

• 16:36Amanda Dobbins?

  Those are the points we're made.

• 16:37Sean Fennessey?

  Janis Metz-Peterson, you know, who directed a lot of episodes of Andor.

• 16:41Sean Fennessey?

  That's a, that's a, yeah, a pretty sturdy slate from the studio, is what I'll say. TIFF announcements, very quickly, I mentioned Possible Love, I Play Rocky, We Were Right, will be world premiering there. Chris Rock's Misty Green, that's his new movie. Is a director, world premiering there.

• 16:55Speaker 05

  What's the, what's the word on that one? What's the?

• 16:58Sean Fennessey?

  I don't know, it's an 824 film.

• 16:59Speaker 05

  Okay.

• 16:59Sean Fennessey?

  That's all, that's all I really know about it. CR, Takashi Miike's Bad Lieutenant Tokyo, world premiering. Lauren Miller Rogan's Babies, which has a star-studded cast, including her husband Seth Rogen. Your Mother, Your Mother, Your Mother, the new Marjorie Lee movie. Anton Corbin's A Talent for Murder, which is based on the place Switzerland that I've actually seen staged about Patricia Highsmith late in her life, which stars Helen Mirren.

• 17:20Amanda Dobbins?

  And the opportunity. Was she quite mean? I'm Swiss, did you know?

• 17:23Sean Fennessey?

  Well, I am.

• 17:25Speaker 05

  Patricia Highsmith was quite mean towards the end of her life.

• 17:28Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah, and very bad politics. You don't wanna get into that.

• 17:31Sean Fennessey?

  Play is about that.

• 17:31Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah. Thanks so much for telling us. Much like Switzerland.

• 17:37Sean Fennessey?

  How dare you? How dare you? Non-world premieres of the debut, Look Back, Elsinore, Long Winter, a few other films that we'll end up talking about when we discuss the Venice lineup, which is coming on Thursday.

• 17:48Amanda Dobbins?

  That's right.

• 17:49Sean Fennessey?

  Some movies are missing so far. Doesn't mean that they won't be announced, but Sense and Sensibility, The Uprising, Wildwood, Clara and the Sun. We've heard nothing of Wild Horse 9.

• 18:01Speaker 05

  See the trailer.

• 18:02Amanda Dobbins?

  I mean-

• 18:03Sean Fennessey?

  Just festival-wise. Okay, we gotta track this stuff on this show.

• 18:05Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah.

• 18:06Sean Fennessey?

  Behemoth?

• 18:06Speaker 05

  Behemoth!

• 18:08Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah.

• 18:09Speaker 05

  You guys have to hit the exclamation point. So you can either say Behemoth exclamation point, or you have to-

• 18:15Amanda Dobbins?

  I have to yell Behemoth?

• 18:16Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 18:17Amanda Dobbins?

  They can show me the movie.

• 18:21Sean Fennessey?

  I feel-

• 18:22Speaker 05

  I don't know her, Tony. She just shows up here every once in a while.

• 18:26Amanda Dobbins?

  Tony, I love you and I want to hear your beautiful dialogue. And also, does Pedro Pascal speak in movies?

• 18:34Sean Fennessey?

  Yeah, uh, I think Behemoth is gonna be a telluride and I'm pretty damn excited about that. We'll see, we'll see what happens. Um, A Place in Hell, the Christmas movie starring Michelle Williams and Daisy Edgar Jones.

• 18:44Speaker 05

  The Chloe Dumont movie, right?

• 18:45Sean Fennessey?

  Chloe Dumont, yes. Um, and, and Animals.

• 18:48Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah.

• 18:48Sean Fennessey?

  We have not heard tell of yet of-

• 18:50Amanda Dobbins?

  Wherefore art thou Ben?

• 18:51Speaker 05

  Is Matt Damon in that?

• 18:53Amanda Dobbins?

  No.

• 18:54Speaker 05

  Because he's just producing it?

• 18:55Amanda Dobbins?

  Just Ben, yeah.

• 18:57Speaker 05

  And Kerry Washington's in that?

• 18:58Amanda Dobbins?

  She is.

• 18:58Speaker 05

  Goddamn, let's go.

• 19:00Sean Fennessey?

  Should be interesting.

• 19:00Speaker 05

  It's about like a mayor, right?

• 19:02Sean Fennessey?

  Keep going.

• 19:03Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah.

• 19:03Speaker 05

  I think it's about like a kidnapping, but it looks-

• 19:05Amanda Dobbins?

  It is.

• 19:05Speaker 05

  It sounded cool.

• 19:06Amanda Dobbins?

  And Ben Affleck plays the mayor.

• 19:08Speaker 05

  But I thought the instigators sounded cool, you know, like-

• 19:11Sean Fennessey?

  The film The Instigator?

• 19:12Speaker 05

  Yeah, like when you, when you read about one of the artist equity movies-

• 19:15Sean Fennessey?

  The Matt Damon, Casey Affleck movie?

• 19:17Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 19:17Sean Fennessey?

  Okay.

• 19:18Speaker 05

  Was, is it called The Instigators, right?

• 19:19Sean Fennessey?

  Yes, it is, yeah.

• 19:19Speaker 05

  Right.

• 19:20Sean Fennessey?

  You said The Instigator and I was like, what is The Instigator? Um, so yeah, Venice lineup on Thursday. Here's a cool one. Ryan Coogler shot his pilot for the X-Files reboot that he's been working on.

• 19:30Speaker 05

  On 65 millimeter.

• 19:32Sean Fennessey?

  He shot it on 65 millimeter, which sounds very cool and very expensive. And that also suggests that the film was, this show was shot to be shown on film in a theater and that apparently he is pushing the studio to make that so. However, the, the show has not been picked up yet for official release.

• 19:49Speaker 05

  I mean-

• 19:50Sean Fennessey?

  So is this just a Ryan Coogler movie starring Himish Patel and Danielle DeWiler?

• 19:54Speaker 05

  If that's what winds up happening, then that's enough, but I, I, this is Disney, right?

• 20:00Sean Fennessey?

  I think so.

• 20:01Speaker 05

  You, you guys gotta get, get, get on board with a winner. I mean, like, come on, put this movie out and then put the show up and be like excited about it.

• 20:09Sean Fennessey?

  Yeah, I, it just, it's a little strange because presumably the entire run of the series won't be shot on film. That would be very expensive and difficult to accomplish. So just this one, I don't know.

• 20:19Amanda Dobbins?

  But also, you know, Coogler gets to do what he wants, as he should, so-

• 20:24Sean Fennessey?

  Yeah, he does. And shot by Autumn Durrell Darkapaw, who was the Oscar-winning cinematographer of Sinners. So fascinating thing. Be curious to see if it actually becomes a show.

• 20:34Speaker 05

  This is like astonishing and then like episode six is like shot in Vancouver.

• 20:38Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah.

• 20:38Speaker 05

  And then where's this alien?

• 20:39Amanda Dobbins?

  And you're like live blogging it once again. You're just like, okay.

• 20:43Sean Fennessey?

  That's a great point. Um, Chris, I'm glad you're here for this news too.

• 20:47Amanda Dobbins?

  Okay.

• 20:47Sean Fennessey?

  Amanda, no disrespect to you, but this is, this is, this is CR space.

• 20:50Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 20:51Sean Fennessey?

  Edward Berger, Matt Damon confirmed that he and Edward Berger have been working hard on a, on a Bourne, a newborn film. Not a reboot, not a new trilogy or anything, just another movie that he wants to make sense in the Bourne story. How do you feel about that?

• 21:07Speaker 05

  The final Jason Bourne movie was quite poor. The titular Jason Bourne. Obviously, I'm very vocal about my love for The Bourne Legacy. The other rumor that kind of is pairing with this is the one about Zendaya possibly being looked at to take over the franchise at some point. And the idea of what, I don't know if these are two separate strands of development and whether or not the obvious next logical move would be Damon going to save a younger spy and then bring them along in this Jason Bourne world. But Edward Berger is about as good of a choice as you could possibly make for this. And if he's not gonna do Bond, he might as well do this. That's my take.

• 21:48Amanda Dobbins?

  Agree. You've just completely erased me from my love of The Bourne franchise and the country house and the hair cutting.

• 21:56Speaker 05

  Oh my god, the hair cutting.

• 21:57Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah, come on.

• 21:58Speaker 05

  That's so hot.

• 21:58Sean Fennessey?

  Is that your favorite one, the first one?

• 22:00Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah.

• 22:01Sean Fennessey?

  Yeah.

• 22:01Amanda Dobbins?

  He, yeah. And the second one has more, has Joan Allen, which we know is important to you.

• 22:06Speaker 05

  Uh, and has-

• 22:08Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah.

• 22:08Speaker 05

  Some great Thailand stuff.

• 22:10Amanda Dobbins?

  Sure.

• 22:10Sean Fennessey?

  Second one was Supremacy?

• 22:12Speaker 05

  Yeah, and then Ultimatum is three, which is a little bit wonky, right?

• 22:15Sean Fennessey?

  Supremacy is pretty sick.

• 22:17Speaker 05

  Ends in Moscow, right?

• 22:18Sean Fennessey?

  Yeah, one and two are good.

• 22:18Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah.

• 22:19Sean Fennessey?

  Um, it's weird because there have now been four of these movies? Four, five, five of these movies, right?

• 22:26Speaker 05

  Three, Jason Bourne and Bourne Legacy and a show. That's strong.

• 22:30Sean Fennessey?

  Five movies and a show is a lot for this story. Um, is Bourne Robert Ludlum?

• 22:37Speaker 05

  It is.

• 22:38Sean Fennessey?

  What's your take on Ludlum?

• 22:39Speaker 05

  I honestly have not read any Ludlum. No.

• 22:42Sean Fennessey?

  Shocking. You know, Amanda is no longer reading male writers. I don't know if you've read, I don't know if you've read that.

• 22:47Amanda Dobbins?

  That's not a, that's not a no longer thing.

• 22:48Sean Fennessey?

  She made, she made an announcement that she'd read enough men for her lifetime.

• 22:51Amanda Dobbins?

  I, that's, that's, that was just a statement of, of what has been happening, a reflection of unplanned choices.

• 22:59Sean Fennessey?

  Who will be the next man's story you read?

• 23:01Speaker 05

  I'll tell you what it's gonna be because there's been a lot of talk about birthdays coming up.

• 23:04Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah.

• 23:04Speaker 05

  And, you know, I turned 49, so it's not that big, but for 50-

• 23:08Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah.

• 23:08Speaker 05

  What I think I'm gonna do is have many men that I know gather. And Amanda is the only person in the audience, so we'll have like, you know, maybe the Disney Concert Hall. And all the men get on stage and we each read a story from John Cheever's collected short stories because it combines men and short stories, which are two of my favorite things.

• 23:30Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah.

• 23:31Speaker 05

  And-

• 23:31Amanda Dobbins?

  Listen, as long as it's not short stories-

• 23:33Speaker 05

  MJ Lenderman will play interstitial music.

• 23:35Amanda Dobbins?

  I'm like MJ Lenderman!

• 23:40Amanda Dobbins?

  Okay?

• 23:41Sean Fennessey?

  Wife Propeller is kind of a great name for a Cheever story now that I think about it.

• 23:45Speaker 05

  They're all called Wife Propeller.

• 23:49Sean Fennessey?

  Okay. Speaking of, speaking of the female voice in fiction, why don't you break this one down for us?

• 23:55Amanda Dobbins?

  Chris and I were already talking about this. This was also covered on The Watch. Rachel Cusk's next novel is apparently a, a thinly veiled book about Natalie Portman.

• 24:06Sean Fennessey?

  And what is it sourced from?

• 24:08Amanda Dobbins?

  From her life.

• 24:08Speaker 05

  But, but- They're friends.

• 24:10Sean Fennessey?

  So they're friends and did she seek permission?

• 24:12Amanda Dobbins?

  Well, she didn't tell us that. Uh, we don't know. This broke yesterday. This broke over the weekend.

• 24:18Sean Fennessey?

  You make it sound like it's like a new, a Ron deal. The news broke on Sunday afternoon, a Rachel Cusk novel.

• 24:25Amanda Dobbins?

  I had more text conversations about Rachel Cusk's, Rachel Cusk, Rachel Cusk and I am Team Rachel Cusk.

• 24:32Sean Fennessey?

  That's my novel about Rachel Cusk.

• 24:33Amanda Dobbins?

  Um, her book about Natalie Portman than I did about The Odyssey. So I, listen, the streets that care about this are alive and I just, I have, I, it is real. People have read it. It is, it's happening.

• 24:45Sean Fennessey?

  You're not a big Portman gal.

• 24:46Amanda Dobbins?

  Well, that's true, you know?

• 24:48Sean Fennessey?

  I love her, Long Island forever. Long Island forever, man.

• 24:52Amanda Dobbins?

  I, I'm interested, I thought she was great in May-December.

• 24:55Sean Fennessey?

  Mm-hmm.

• 24:55Amanda Dobbins?

  I'm interested to see what this novel, uh-

• 24:58Speaker 05

  Yeah, and how it comes out. Like, how did she participate? Did she know she was participating?

• 25:03Amanda Dobbins?

  Right.

• 25:03Speaker 05

  Do you say to Rachel Cusk, "Write an autofiction novel about me and it's okay if it's unflattering"? Like-

• 25:09Sean Fennessey?

  Let me pitch you an idea.

• 25:10Speaker 05

  Uh-huh.

• 25:11Sean Fennessey?

  You thinly veiled novel of Bill Simmons. Who says no?

• 25:15Speaker 05

  No, I do, I say no. First of all, I don't think I can write a novel. I'm supposed to write something that's like 5,000 words coming up and I'm like, I don't know if I got it in me.

• 25:22Amanda Dobbins?

  Wow.

• 25:23Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 25:23Sean Fennessey?

  What is it?

• 25:24Speaker 05

  Uh, liner notes for some friends who are, who are putting their workout on a box set.

• 25:29Amanda Dobbins?

  Oh, that's so nice.

• 25:30Speaker 05

  Um, but like, I was just like, that's daunting.

• 25:32Amanda Dobbins?

  And they gave you the word count of 5,000?

• 25:35Speaker 05

  They were like, we have to fill out like this booklet, you know, like we have to, you know?

• 25:38Amanda Dobbins?

  You can't figure, fill it out with drawings?

• 25:40Speaker 05

  I asked about that. I was like, can we just do a really long app, maybe? Uh, regardless, I, I will not do that. I would never write a thinly veiled novel about Bill Simmons.

• 25:50Sean Fennessey?

  Okay, who would you like to write a thinly veiled novel about?

• 25:53Amanda Dobbins?

  You.

• 25:53Sean Fennessey?

  Yeah.

• 25:54Speaker 05

  Who would you, who would you write a thinly veiled novel about?

• 25:56Sean Fennessey?

  Chris Nolan, pretty clearly. Speaking of, let's make a transition to The Odyssey. The Odyssey is a massive, massive, massive success.

• 26:08Speaker 05

  Fucking bat flip.

• 26:09Sean Fennessey?

  Just an incredible success.

• 26:10Amanda Dobbins?

  We did it.

• 26:11Sean Fennessey?

  Uh, $264.1 million worldwide gross. It made $140 million overseas. It made $125 million in America over the weekend, in North America, I should say. This is the biggest debut since The Dark Knight Rises, when Chris saw it four times in two days. Um, it's the third largest opening of the year, though. The two other films that opened in front of it this year are Toy Story 5 and the Super Mario Brothers Galaxy movie. This is a three-hour, R-rated movie that absolutely dominated not just the film conversation, but I think a more, much more general conversation around the country, even around the world. Save the World Cup final match. I think this is just about the biggest thing.

• 26:52Speaker 05

  They went hand in hand of being like, we have two really exciting things to consume and talk about and think about and get mad about and get happy about.

• 27:00Sean Fennessey?

  I saw a, a tweet this morning that tickets for The Odyssey at the BFI IMAX in London are fully sold out from now until September 10th. That, so this is, there's a long runway here for this movie, give or take a Spider-Man movie, to dominate movies for the next six weeks, which is totally fascinating.

• 27:17Speaker 05

  Seeing it again tomorrow. And my wife was like, "Why? You just saw it?" And I was like, "I just wanna have the experience of seeing this this way as many times as I want or can." Because, you know, it'll be like five years or whatever until it gets back into a re-release and this is really special. I mean, regardless of whether or not every part of the movie works for you, I think the experience of seeing it the way it's meant to be seen is really cool if you can, uh, manage to do it.

• 27:42Sean Fennessey?

  What do you, what do you think about the reaction to it thus far?

• 27:45Amanda Dobbins?

  Aside from people behaving badly online, which is always the way, and we don't have to acknowledge it, um, it's really exciting. And I, you know, I said earlier about the Comic-Con of it all and it feeling like this, you know, the fan culture and the, um, the gentle insanity around a cultural product has, you know, been moved to something much closer to, to high art, in my opinion, than anything that's been released in the Marvel franchise in the last 15 years. And that's really exciting. Um, you know, I think, I think it's incredibly cool that Chris Nolan has turned nerding out about, um, film stocks and, uh-

• 28:28Amanda Dobbins?

  Projection to be a pop cultural thing. I, I, I think if you can't see the entirety of the helmet, it's fine.

• 28:35Sean Fennessey?

  Me too.

• 28:36Amanda Dobbins?

  You know, like you guys are, you guys are gonna be okay, you know?

• 28:39Sean Fennessey?

  I agree.

• 28:40Amanda Dobbins?

  Maybe we should just like borrow some helmets and wear them once and then you can see them. But it, what that indicates is that he has turned it into both a cultural phenomenon and as your tweets and all the box office indicates, like a, a box office, a financial phenomenon, which then means that the corporations that make movies will pay attention because they think that it's another way to make money. And like real movies filmed on film in real places, um, being a financially lucrative enterprise is just all you could want in life.

• 29:17Sean Fennessey?

  Yeah.

• 29:17Amanda Dobbins?

  Because that's the kind of movies I want to see.

• 29:19Sean Fennessey?

  Yeah, I, I completely agree. Echo all your sentiments.

• 29:22Speaker 05

  I love all the like apocryphal but fun anecdotes of people refusing to leave, you know, like they're at Lincoln Center and they're just like, you're gonna have to call the cops. I want to watch it again, you know?

• 29:33Sean Fennessey?

  It's funny. So my wife Eileen acquired a 6 a.m. ticket this morning, on Monday morning, to see it on 70 and IMAX at CityWalk. And she kind of like sat in the app and was refreshing to like try to find a ticket because she wanted to see it in this format. But you know, truth be told, Eileen doesn't care about the format and she's not gonna really be able to tell the significant difference in terms of watching it. So she just changed her mind and then on Friday just grabbed an 11 a.m. ticket to go see it in a Dolby room in Burbank.

• 30:00Speaker 05

  Cause she liked it?

• 30:01Sean Fennessey?

  And she loved it. And it's like, it's gonna play in any movie theater, you know? It might not be exactly the experience that you want to have in the exact perfect way that you want to have it as intended by the director, but this has been true of movies for years.

• 30:12Speaker 05

  You know what actually broke me of this fever in some ways was Tenet. Like you guys watched Tenet in a smokey haze at a drive-in. I watched it on, I think on a computer the first time I watched it. It fucking rocks. We just screened it in Toronto. It rocks. And like these movies will play everywhere, no matter like, even if you're like, I want to be able to see the, the full height of these, uh, of these characters. Like you're, you're gonna be okay.

• 30:39Amanda Dobbins?

  Eileen also said something interesting Saturday about the experience of hunting for the 6 a.m. CityWalk ticket and sitting in the app. And she said, at some point, I was just looking for the adrenaline of actually getting this thing that everybody wanted. It was sort of, whether it's like a Lububu or a ticket to the 70 millimeter IMAX at CityWalk.

• 31:00Amanda Dobbins?

  And I was just like, wow, that is, that's, that's awesome. That's an amazing feat of marketing. And I think that normally we, I would be cynical about that in terms of it making corporations money. But in this case, if it incentivizes more people to want to see film and to, and movies to, and movie studios to make film, then like, good job, everybody. So it's, it's uncanny.

• 31:22Sean Fennessey?

  The thing I love about it, that is sort of related to the point that you're making about films like this being successful and going into the culture is, so Eileen went to that screening on 11 a.m. on Friday and they gave up posters. So she came home with an Odyssey poster. And then of course, when my daughter got home from camp, we showed her the poster and it's the, the image of the Lycistronians facing down Odysseus's fleet. And Alice was just like, what is that? And then that took us back to the Delair's Book of Greek Myths that Amanda got her for her birthday, whatever, a year or two ago. And now we just spent the whole weekend reading the Greek myths.

• 31:57Speaker 05

  Mythboxing.

• 31:57Sean Fennessey?

  And listening to myth podcasts together. And now she's all into it and she wants to hear about Artemis and Athena and she wants, so I'm like, this is kind of cool that this went back into the culture this way. Like this can, this can now, and when you start reading those myths again, I'm reminded of like, well, everything is based on this. Every story is based on these stories. And all of these names, you know, the way that many screenwriters tend to use the names of the gods and the figures from those stories to represent like corporations over, over time, like how they all are kind of these, um, kind of reclamation of power over history. And it's just because this guy was like, I'm gonna make this a movie. This, this should be a movie. It should be a movie at this scale. And now we can return to understanding what stories can represent. So I, I find that

• 32:39Sean Fennessey?

  to be a wonderful kind of after effect. But see, are, you know, I, I don't, I don't know, have you gone on the record at length about your feelings about the movie yet?

• 32:47Speaker 05

  Uh, no, I mean, I talked with you a little bit about it on Bill's show last week, but it had yet to be like officially released. So we were pretty circumspect with talking about any specifics from the film. I'll just say also, one of the cool things, just as I'm getting into it, has been, uh, I think people understand when all the cast members who are doing their promotional duties and like they are so on book about like, this is what we did to make this movie. This is like what it meant to us to make this movie. And this is like how much everybody kind of gave to this movie. It's rare that like people, people will say that about like making a Harlan Coben show. It's rare that you're like, oh yeah, I can tell. You know, I can, I can watch Matt Damon age, you know?

• 33:32Sean Fennessey?

  Yes.

• 33:32Speaker 05

  If you're inside the horse and you're like, it was these guys, it was filling with water and Nolan and Hoyt are in there with them. It feels that way.

• 33:42Sean Fennessey?

  It does.

• 33:42Speaker 05

  And he is the, he is really like the only game in town when it comes to like, it's gonna, it's gonna feel the way it feels for these characters. You're gonna feel like you were on this beach. You were gonna feel like you were on this mountain. You're gonna feel like the Cyclops is that tall. And it's a, it's a gift that I, I don't even know how many filmmakers really have it, but it is a really astonishing thing to see and especially the way it's, it's sort of projected on IMAX 70.

• 34:08Sean Fennessey?

  There's a really compelling making of, uh, featurette that is available on Peacock right now that you can watch called The Making of the Odyssey. Um, and it, you know, there's a lot of interviews with all the cast members and it, it's, you know, it was clearly made during the production of the film.

• 34:22Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 34:22Sean Fennessey?

  Matt Damon looks tired.

• 34:23Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah.

• 34:23Sean Fennessey?

  He looks very, very tired in his interviews and he's giving it his all and he's, he's been on the major charm offensive of all time, the last six months, especially this month.

• 34:32Speaker 05

  The best is like the, the juxtaposition of him with Pattinson, who spent the entire time in a castle eating, you know, and he's just like, you guys seemed so tired when you got here. You know, it's like, I was at the hotel bar by myself.

• 34:45Sean Fennessey?

  It's very true. Uh, okay. Chris, maybe Amanda and I can ping pong off of you as you go through some of your takeaways. But what are the things that you wanted to talk about?

• 34:53Speaker 05

  First of all, I thought your podcast like last week was fantastic.

• 34:56Sean Fennessey?

  Thank you.

• 34:56Speaker 05

  And one of the things that, you know, obviously leapt out at me was when Amanda was talking about how Inception begins and the idea of, you know, this recurring energy that shows up throughout Nolan's, uh, body of work, but also like these themes that show up throughout his body of work. And the Odyssey being not only like this incredible adaptation of one of the central stories of Western civilization, but also like a skeleton key that unlocks this director that I think different people have different hurdles to get over at different points in his filmography. So maybe you're not a Batman guy or a comic book person, or maybe you find some of the temporal games he plays with storytelling to be a bit frustrating. Tenet may be inscrutable to you. Inception may seem silly or whatever.

• 35:41Speaker 05

  But I think this movie can play as like the first movie and the last movie in a Nolan retrospective and the entire thing makes real, real sense that in a way that even though with Oppenheimer having like incredible awards run and some of his films being regarded in the way that they are, I think now it's like, okay, like this 25 years of this guy, let's really look at what he wants to say about being a person, how we tell stories and how we see things on screen in a way that I think is like pretty amazing. And I, I was trying to think of like any comp, like in a director's career where like at this point, we talked about this a little bit on Wednesday, where like their 10th, 11th

• 36:22Speaker 05

  movie, and they make a movie that then makes all the rest of their work kind of come into focus in a different way.

• 36:29Sean Fennessey?

  I, I think it's probably Kurosawa is the only one, because I think he's the only filmmaker who has deftly managed the scale and scope of his storytelling with the hyper personal.

• 36:41Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 36:41Sean Fennessey?

  And, you know, Ron is, was an inspiration for this movie and this, the idea of a great king coming back to power. But it's a short list.

• 36:50Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 36:50Sean Fennessey?

  I mean, it's a short, and I think the, like the names that we reach for, like Kubrick or Hitchcock or, you know, even Cecil B. DeMille or Spielberg, like that, they're not an even match, I find, with kind of what Nolan is interested in. And I don't, you keep seeing the personal. I was wondering how you feel about this too, because I find Nolan's films to be a little impersonal, but I find them to be like very much about consequences on the world at large. You know, like he's very good to me about, these were the stakes and if you, if we fail, everything goes belly up.

• 37:21Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah.

• 37:22Sean Fennessey?

  Um, I, what do you think?

• 37:23Amanda Dobbins?

  Well, I mean, they are great men movies, which we have, you know, talked about and in my case, occasionally ridiculed. And I was thinking about this morning, let's see, this morning I rewatched Interstellar and part of Prestige and

• 37:39Amanda Dobbins?

  And I can't remember what else, but this idea that he is taking on the state, the fate of the world through one person is, I think, both the scale that you're talking about and the personal. And it is, I do sense an identification if with the main characters or the person who is trying to keep everything together, whether it's to save the world or to get back to the family or all of the above. So in that sense, they do feel personal, or at least, you know, identified to me. But I don't find that I'm reading them for biographical clues necessarily of, oh, this is this person supposed to be,

• 38:22Amanda Dobbins?

  you know, your producing partner. And I, you know, I do think that they all have something to do with the act of making movies. And how could they not, when you spend your life doing this? And they are all about storytelling and taking on like great works and often like commanding a large group of people. But I don't read them as, you know, pure stand in for like, this is just about me and how hard it is to make a movie. I don't, I don't think they're even as close as, like, I would say a Spielberg movie is to both biography for sure, but also what is it to be a filmmaker?

• 38:57Speaker 05

  Yeah. And I guess he doesn't really have the like hallmarks of child of divorce, or I was making films when I was eight, you know, in my backyard. So this has always been my lens through which I view life.

• 39:09Sean Fennessey?

  He hasn't like allowed himself to be narrativized in that way.

• 39:12Speaker 05

  I drink tea and I'm a good dad. And like, these are the things that interest me. But I thought it was interesting when you read interviews with some of the cast members and Lupita Nyong'o and John Leguizamo spoke about like, this incredibly vulnerable conversation that they had when they did their like vibes interview with Nolan, when he's like, okay, I'm going to bring you, we're going to hang out for a couple of hours, talk, then you can read the script and then we'll kind of go from there. And they both talked about like, you know, obviously, like this personal connection that he has to the story, but beyond that, like his anxieties and all these things that he expressed to them. And I think you can start to see that obviously come out in the kinds of stories

• 39:53Speaker 05

  he's interested in, but also the way his, maybe his feelings have changed from, say, Interstellar, where you see a group of people coming together to save the world because science can do that, to what he has to say about the world, maybe with Oppenheimer and, and the Odyssey, and whether or not he feels a little bit darker about like our prospects in the future.

• 40:18Sean Fennessey?

  I definitely think he does. I do think since The Dark Knight, maybe even before that, but probably since The Dark Knight, he has always been a little bit more of like an elevated political literate filmmaker, where he's kind of drawing like historical allusions, you know, like using A Tale of Two Cities to do Dark Knight rises, you know, stuff like that.

• 40:40Speaker 05

  You could critique him for ducking the smoke of saying what he means with his chest and being like.

• 40:45Sean Fennessey?

  That's the thing is, he won't ever put his finger on it and say, this is what I meant by this. And maybe that's kind of what annoys.

• 40:50Speaker 05

  Is Batman activating all cell phones as surveillance devices about, you know, like FISA? I don't know. But like, you know, it's, I think in this film specifically, there are some, sometimes even heavy handed, like, hey, this is about what's happening today, you know, that I thought was really actually like, I think, pretty provocative, pretty, pretty amazing to, to, to take that swing as brave as anything he does visually is like some of the, some of the inversions that he makes on what we traditionally understand as this story.

• 41:24Sean Fennessey?

  Well, one of the things that I think is kind of an inversion of what he used to do is I found that he used to explain plot in a lot of his kind of long soliloquies from characters. And now he explains theme. And there is like a pretty big difference there. The whole explication at the very end of the Odyssey before the final showdown, that conversation, I guess, between Odysseus and Penelope, is him kind of being like, here's why I made this movie. And here's what I think this story is really about to me. And that's really interesting to me. It might be a little bit too direct and on the nose for your most sophisticated film goer, but I found it to be very effective. And I didn't mind it becoming, I didn't mind the theme becoming literalized. I think

• 42:07Sean Fennessey?

  I, because I saw it as this kind of attempt to fuse these two people who've been apart for a long time. And it was him essentially explaining to this person that he's been apart from, spoilers for the Odyssey, by the way, that I had to be away this long because this is something that I did, and this is something I'm responsible for. And because I'm responsible for it, I participated in the end of a kind of civilization. And in order to kind of get back, I need to get this off my chest. And I also am happy to explain to the audience, like, what this filmmaker means by this movie. Do you know what I'm saying when I say that?

• 42:39Amanda Dobbins?

  Yes. I mean, a couple of things there. He's able to do that in the Odyssey because unlike most of his other movies, he doesn't have to spend that much time explaining the plot of the Odyssey, because we all know. And it is also, it's very basic, right? It is just this person needs to get home. And then the emphasis on why he can't get home or where he's been or what he's experienced, you know, can be shifted according to the adaptation. So I think you're right. And I, and it does mean then that he has more room to be literal about the themes. But that speech is paired with an absolutely incredible set piece. And it's the second time you see the sacking of Troy from a totally different

• 43:21Amanda Dobbins?

  perspective. And I think there still is the grand visual element that I felt was really accomplished in sort of, it wasn't just that they were setting things on fire and dudes were fighting each other. It was very moving. And I felt communicated those themes through the actions. So for me, I'm kind of like, if you just want to make room for showing that like revisionist Troy scene with some obvious, not even that obvious, like, I do think that that and the siren speech are two cases where he is writing the themes and what he feels in pretty explicit voiceover in The Voice of Odysseus. But the writing's really good, which is not what we always say about Christopher Nolan dialogue.

• 44:06Sean Fennessey?

  But it's also, it's preceded by a moment that you would explain to a person. If you haven't seen your wife in 20 years, of course, you would tell her what happened. If you experienced something that no one else on that ship experienced by hearing the song, of course, someone would say, what did it sound like? So to me, that's like a great way to set up that expositional style that he usually writes through.

• 44:26Speaker 05

  Yes. There's also, it's interesting to hear you pair the like, the writing with this sort of grandio, the grandiosity of the visual set pieces that he's able to produce. Because I found myself more often than not with Nolan, thinking about the movies and what they had to say, rather than remembering what they looked like. And obviously, there are these incredibly Hall of Fame sequences in his filmography, like the black hole in Interstellar and, you know, Oppenheimer's Trinity Test. And you can go on and on. Every movie has something where you're like, what the fuck did he just pull off? But that's not what I think about Tenet. What I think about Tenet is like, I'll either try and

• 45:08Speaker 05

  solve it, or I'll try and figure out why he made the movie the way he did and what the movie is about actually. And I kind of feel that way about the Odyssey. The things that I've been thinking about while I was blown away by so much of it are all like the turn with the sea people and what that's about. Because that's a Nolan authorial addition to the, to the canonical text. And

• 45:34Sean Fennessey?

  What do you think it's about?

• 45:35Speaker 05

  I mean, I think it's honestly about, I mean, on a, on a superficial and perhaps like headline grabbing way, I think it's somewhat a commentary about the tendency for right wing movements to villainize like mysterious foreigners from coming onto their shores, when in fact, the real poison lies within them. And I don't know if you would agree with that, but I don't think it's an accident that like, there is like a huge faction of like the English right wing that calls people arriving across like the Channel boat people. And now we have to stop the boats and that we need to like militarize the borders of England. And obviously Nolan has English roots. We hear that a lot here, you know, like it's.

• 46:20Sean Fennessey?

  And there's two different moments in the movie. The one when they first take that first island and they pillage that town. And there's the man who's speaking in a foreign language on his knees, being held by Hemish Patel's character. And he's trying to explain to them like, no, no, we're, we're Greek soldiers from Ithaca, you know, we're not sea people.

• 46:39Speaker 05

  But it's also, this is the cool thing about his storytelling style, which I think some people sometimes find a bit clever. And some, this time I felt worked beautifully is, I can't wait to see this movie again, thinking about that very scene. It reads entirely differently when you know the end of the film and what happened to Troy. Hemish Patel seems almost more threatening coming up on the, on the shore and being like.

• 47:03Sean Fennessey?

  They're the marauders.

• 47:04Speaker 05

  Yeah, of course. And also like, the interactions between Odysseus and his crew read differently when you know that these people just sacked and destroyed a city and did probably much, much worse.

• 47:14Sean Fennessey?

  This is what we talked about with casting Damon, where it's like with Damon, so inherently likeable. They're like, but, you know, Odysseus is kind of a bastard, you know, like he does a lot of things in the story of the Odyssey that is, you know, regrettable at best, you know?

• 47:28Amanda Dobbins?

  Right. But, and Nolan adds the regret, you know? And, and that's not to say that some of these themes are not in the text. Like the, so the Greek word for Zeus's law is xenia, which is also where you get xenophobia. So it's like very basic in the, this, this fear of strangers and how do you treat someone else? Yeah. And all they taught me in school was xenia over and over and over again. And I only put it together like last week. But, um, so, so there is at least the societal idea within Homer's text, or at least the translations I've read. But, but that Odysseus even comes to the realization that he did something wrong, that we were the people from the sea, that we have created this other

• 48:11Amanda Dobbins?

  world. That is, that is entirely Nolan's addition.

• 48:15Sean Fennessey?

  Yeah. We were talking on, on Bill's show about he's kind of like the Tony Soprano, the originating Tony Soprano, or Walter White or something, the flawed protagonist. But he does give him. He gives him more sympathy, really, by the end of this movie. You know, you, you, this movie kind of gives you a satisfying ending of this guy not only returns home to his wife, but he sails on and is free to pursue, I don't know.

• 48:39Amanda Dobbins?

  Civilization rising again.

• 48:40Sean Fennessey?

  Or, or at least relaxation in Boca Raton, you know, like whatever it is he's going to.

• 48:44Amanda Dobbins?

  You know, honoring his men.

• 48:45Sean Fennessey?

  Honoring his men, a healthy retirement, yes. Which is of course not how his story ends. For those of you who want to read further in the Greek myths, some interesting fates for Odysseus as well. We can talk about that in a, when the Odyssey 2 comes out. What other things, Chris? What else jumped out to you?

• 49:02Speaker 05

  Uh, I loved the, it being a story told as stories being told. So Odysseus is working through his memory with Calypso on and off that Lotus, you know?

• 49:13Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah.

• 49:14Sean Fennessey?

  Yeah. The first promethazine.

• 49:16Speaker 05

  Yeah, exactly. Metaleus telling Telemachus about his father, you know, like this idea that many of the things that we're seeing are actually being told to a character by another character or about a character who's not present. I would love to go back and analyze the reliability of narrators at various moments, but it definitely, I, I, I think it made also a lot of sense of like why he cast the people he cast in this movie. Because when you think about Legua Zamo and Berthold, they have a kind of oratory skill that's like, hey, man, come over here. I'm going to tell you about this thing that happened in our neighborhood and it's awesome. And if you were ever going to confess everything to anyone, it would probably be Charlize Theron on a beach, you know?

• 50:00Speaker 05

  And she prepared like a beautiful squid dish, you know? Still don't know why he left that beach.

• 50:07Sean Fennessey?

  So you would, you would spend seven years on that beach?

• 50:10Speaker 05

  And also just beyond the stories, like how much of what happens in the movie is because of people's fears, you know, and that they articulate. So Cersei talking about like, he's like, did my men attack you? And she was like, not yet, you know? And the kind of paranoia that's starting to develop in the kingdom and then these islands and everything that's happening in Ithaca being like, we gotta do something because something bad is going to happen and we can't just keep looming here, you know? Like, we have to create a new seat of power because otherwise, like whether it's the sea people or the suitors, it's going to break soon. And this, this place won't function without that. So just the idea of not doing a, here's the, one of the most notable heroes in all of

• 50:54Speaker 05

  history, let's just follow him. Like, let's not complicate this. Let's, let's John Ford him and watch him.

• 51:00Sean Fennessey?

  It's funny though, because the movie does complicate the story so much. Because of the way that it's structured through time and, and pairing it opposite Telemachus' journey through trying to find out the truth of his father. So even though, as you, I think you're completely right that this is such a simple story that doesn't need overexplication, but it keeps becoming this story of storytelling because he, he has once again like shattered a pocket watch on the floor. Like that's my, the image I think of whenever I think of a Christopher Nolan movie.

• 51:25Speaker 05

  The top is still spinning.

• 51:26Sean Fennessey?

  Exactly, yeah.

• 51:27Amanda Dobbins?

  I just meant that people are familiar with, you know, the basic storytelling points as opposed to, you know, Interstellar having to explain all of physics like five times and then being like, but actually in this universe, this is how the physics work. The other thing is that, but that fracture and the stories within stories and people telling these is also in, is in the text. And so much of what we learn is from either, you know, a traveler's tale or Odysseus, you know, posing as someone else or telling randos who actually did let him into his home. So I, I was just still stunned going back and rereading the Emily Wilson translation after seeing this movie of just how Nolan, the original is, which like, you know, and

• 52:11Amanda Dobbins?

  he's a very smart and accomplished director, so maybe he knew that. It's like, not an accident that he picked this, but a lot of it's really there.

• 52:18Speaker 05

  Yeah. I don't know if this is real, but did you see over the weekend that Emily Wilson was like, I have some notes about this movie?

• 52:23Sean Fennessey?

  It was real, yeah. It was real. She did, uh, I thought.

• 52:27Speaker 05

  She was like, settle down with the dog stuff.

• 52:29Sean Fennessey?

  Right. Argus, there were some issues with Argus, uh, which was, I think she basically described it as just like a cheap ploy for audiences. And everybody loves a dog in a movie.

• 52:37Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah.

• 52:38Sean Fennessey?

  What were her other notes? Her, her notes were interesting to me and seemingly fair, although she strikes me as a wildly unsympathetic storyteller in general. Like she, there's like a kind of directness in her translation that I find very fascinating. And, you know, he, he, he softens the text a little bit, even though this is one of the most saddest stories ever told. It, it does feel.

• 53:02Amanda Dobbins?

  I don't think her Odysseus is very sympathetic.

• 53:05Sean Fennessey?

  Agreed.

• 53:06Amanda Dobbins?

  Um, and I, and I, you know, again, that's, that's her interpretation of the text and I can't read the original, but there is, there is a lot more reading into his motivations and just feeling in Christopher Nolan's than, than there is in hers.

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• 54:45Speaker 05

  I wanted to ask you guys, you know, one of the, I mean, first of all, some of the memes coming out of this movie are just top-notch. Between that and Argentina, like, you know, going like this, you know, like, it's just been an incredible weekend of content, but I thought one of the most fascinating debates, like legitimately, like it's rare that this happens, but a conversation that was taking place online that I thought was really cool was, to what extent modern audiences would be able to comprehend some of what now would be an anachronistic kind of behavior on the part of any of the characters? So, um, I, you know, like, did you guys talk?

• 55:26Sean Fennessey?

  The idea of a woman having agency?

• 55:27Speaker 05

  No, but you guys talked about like the Cyclops scene being different than it is in the text, because in the text, there's obviously either, there's the I am nobody or no man thing.

• 55:37Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 55:38Speaker 05

  But it's also like, he just can't fucking resist being like, I'm, I'm Laertes, his kid, by the way. He does a real like, like, uh, Ben, Ben Affleck in the town, like, 155 Bunker Hill, come by anytime, you know?

• 55:51Sean Fennessey?

  But there is some bravado in Odysseus. I mean, as a, as a warrior and as a, as a, like a schematic thinker, he's always kind of like plotting a scheme that will make him seem even smarter than everyone else.

• 56:01Speaker 05

  Yes.

• 56:02Sean Fennessey?

  But he likes to tempt the fates, you know? He likes to poke, poke the Cyclops, literally.

• 56:07Speaker 05

  And I think that there is like, where the line of how Nolan writes the character versus where Damon plays the character and everything that we bring to a Damon performance versus what maybe is in the script text, like, this rendition of, of the sirens, you're like, you cocky asshole, you think you're the only one who can hear the song?

• 56:26Amanda Dobbins?

  It's so good. And even just like the glimmer of mischief on Damon's face as he's like, tie me up.

• 56:31Speaker 05

  No, no, no, just don't let me go. Yeah, we'll be good. Yeah. And it's like, yeah, you know, you're like, this is, this is the guy being like, this shit is easy for me, you know?

• 56:40Sean Fennessey?

  The thing that struck me on the second watch was how, um, a lot of the culture war stuff was actually right and it was like wonderfully right. Like every choice that Nolan made in that respect, where he was like, I will cast Elliot Page as the bravest person in this film. I will put Lupita front and center and I will scar her face and she still will be the most beautiful person in this film. Like the fact that he is, I don't know if he's making a statement, but he's, there's.

• 57:10Speaker 05

  I will have Chapel Roon before.

• 57:11Sean Fennessey?

  So much Chapel Roon going in my house this weekend. I already told Amanda.

• 57:16Amanda Dobbins?

  Chapel Roon and James Blake on the remix with Travis Scott.

• 57:22Sean Fennessey?

  You could see it. I will make Travis Scott the bard, you know?

• 57:26Amanda Dobbins?

  I will give Travis Scott the first line in the Odyssey.

• 57:28Sean Fennessey?

  Exactly. I mean, these are all, they're kind of like troll jobs, but they're also full of intent, you know?

• 57:34Speaker 05

  Your choices.

• 57:35Sean Fennessey?

  He made choices. And there's something wonderful about that. And the, I think that the other thing I enjoyed this weekend was, sure, there were some bad actors online, but most people were like, damn, that movie was good.

• 57:45Amanda Dobbins?

  Or, or they were big mad about the helmets, you know?

• 57:49Sean Fennessey?

  Also bullshit, you know? Like, it's a movie. Come up with a new idea, make something look different.

• 57:53Amanda Dobbins?

  No, no, no, I meant that they couldn't see them, not that there was, listen, yeah, of course, that they didn't, they didn't have the exact clothes, you know?

• 58:00Sean Fennessey?

  Yeah. But Agamemnon, you know, he had that shit on. That's what they say about Agamemnon.

• 58:07Speaker 05

  I'll throw out a couple of like. Notes of like dissent about the movie.

• 58:14Sean Fennessey?

  Please do.

• 58:14Speaker 05

  Okay, I am not sure that he is a great action director.

• 58:19Sean Fennessey?

  Mm hmm.

• 58:20Speaker 05

  Um, I, I was, I left, I found the John Wick scene with the suitors a bit.

• 58:25Sean Fennessey?

  Mm hmm.

• 58:26Speaker 05

  Um, a bit silly. I don't know if that's how it how, I can't remember if like, it's like, Dad, wait. And then it's like, pick up the sword.

• 58:34Sean Fennessey?

  Get the shield.

• 58:35Speaker 05

  Get the beers.

• 58:36Sean Fennessey?

  Get the shield.

• 58:37Speaker 05

  Uh, I mean, it's great. It's a great dramatic scene for that Pattinson character, but I've, all these sort of like faceless suitors getting got by him. And, uh, I think that might've been where like the IMAX camera ironically, it doesn't work well.

• 58:52Sean Fennessey?

  Mm hmm.

• 58:52Speaker 05

  In these kinds of close up battle scenes.

• 58:54Amanda Dobbins?

  Especially after you've been outside and it's such large spaces for the whole thing.

• 58:59Speaker 05

  And it just didn't feel as well thought through as every other sequence in the movie felt.

• 59:03Sean Fennessey?

  I, I really liked it, but I do think it is an inevitable letdown after the lead up to Penelope's challenge, which I think is like, please, is, is the most predictable thing. And if you've read it, you know it, but still it's like, the plucking of the bow was, it's just, it's such a satisfying movie moment.

• 59:21Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 59:21Sean Fennessey?

  And.

• 59:22Speaker 05

  That was like the college basketball coach. He was like, let's go. It was just awesome.

• 59:29Sean Fennessey?

  So, so because you get paid off on that moment.

• 59:32Speaker 05

  Fight that was commensurate with plucking the bow, you know?

• 59:35Sean Fennessey?

  Yeah.

• 59:36Speaker 05

  It's like suplexing guys.

• 59:38Sean Fennessey?

  I think you asked the right question, which is like, is there actually limitation to what you can accomplish with this machinery that you're carrying around? Because you can't be as elegant when you're carrying a gigantic camera and trying to shoot action this way. So I don't know. He's had some thrilling sequences in the past. I mean, the bank robbery in Dark Knight, the hallway fight in Inception. He's shot incredible action sequences before, but I do think that the mechanics of the way that he makes movies now maybe complicates this a little bit.

• 1:00:05Speaker 05

  I think I also have to be honest and say that sometimes what happens is Nolan will gesture at great violence, but not show it.

• 1:00:13Sean Fennessey?

  No blood, never blood.

• 1:00:14Speaker 05

  And I think that that's like appropriate in the case of say, um, the, well, who Athena is being represented as in the movie, in the movie, the Zendaya character's death. Obviously, you're not going to behead Zendaya in this movie and have everybody just be like, oh, okay.

• 1:00:31Sean Fennessey?

  Yeah. Ty West's The Odyssey.

• 1:00:32Speaker 05

  Yeah. But like, there is, well, Kurosawa would do it.

• 1:00:35Sean Fennessey?

  He would. He would do it.

• 1:00:36Amanda Dobbins?

  Um, he did it a little bit, a little bit more in Oppenheimer, just in the, like the shot of the skin peeling off. But that's, but that was like as far as he was willing to go.

• 1:00:45Speaker 05

  It's a good example of like.

• 1:00:46Sean Fennessey?

  Portrayed by his daughter.

• 1:00:47Speaker 05

  Is he, is he averting his eyes? Or is he making a concession to the idea that a mass audience is going to see this and they do not want to watch arterial blood spraying all over the place?

• 1:00:59Sean Fennessey?

  I don't think it's that. This is, we're in the time of obsession, you know, like people like Gore. I don't think it's the, I think, I think he's a dimwitted British filmmaker. You know, I think he is like, I don't show everything, basically. That's what it boils down. There's like a kind of class component to it. Not class, wealth class, just like.

• 1:01:13Speaker 05

  And I don't want this movie to be casualties of war, but like they take the beach and he's just like, and we did terrible things. And I'm like, well, you get to have a little bit both ways when you don't show the terrible things.

• 1:01:22Sean Fennessey?

  I mean, think of Dunkirk versus Saving Private Ryan, you know, like in Dunkirk, bodies are being blown off the beaches, but you never see a limb fly in the same way. A limb doesn't land on somebody's head and then leak out blood onto somebody's face. So, so it's, it's a different style of filmmaking.

• 1:01:35Speaker 05

  Basically, like my reason I brought that up is because the last fight scene, the Odysseus versus the suitors winds up feeling very Batman-y to me.

• 1:01:42Sean Fennessey?

  Mm hmm.

• 1:01:43Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah.

• 1:01:45Sean Fennessey?

  You don't like that?

• 1:01:46Speaker 05

  I, I think I've had my fill.

• 1:01:48Sean Fennessey?

  More of a Superman guy?

• 1:01:49Speaker 05

  I think it just looked more like the raid two.

• 1:01:53Sean Fennessey?

  You think they should bring Gareth Evans in just for Nolan's fight scenes?

• 1:01:56Speaker 05

  So it's funny you should mention that because at this, people are probably at this point are like, shut the fuck up. But I wouldn't be mad if he gets all of this stuff right. You know, he's like, I got my script. I got all this stuff. And then at the last second, he was like, Peter Morgan, would you like to just take a pass?

• 1:02:11Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah, sure.

• 1:02:12Speaker 05

  And just like spruce the dialogue up a little bit. Like he's got a lot of weight to carry through a lot of narrative, you know, everybody's got to basically, ah, Agamemnon is using this as a pretext because of the trade routes that he wants to save and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And it's so fast, but dude, just play a solo every once in a while. Like get on the sax, let somebody say something kind of, like the, the, I think the height of beauty in this movie is the Odysseus's description of what the siren song sounded like.

• 1:02:43Amanda Dobbins?

  I, I mean, absolutely transcendent. Yeah.

• 1:02:45Speaker 05

  But I would just.

• 1:02:47Amanda Dobbins?

  But I didn't, I didn't expect that from a Nolan movie. I was just like, whoa, what's happening?

• 1:02:51Sean Fennessey?

  I agree. I found it incredibly moving.

• 1:02:53Speaker 05

  I, I find myself more often than not in Nolan movies extracting cool dialogue out of what might be fortune cookies, like.

• 1:03:01Amanda Dobbins?

  Well, sure. And doing it in a Bane voice.

• 1:03:03Speaker 05

  You're waiting on a train. You don't know where it's going to take you. And you're like, fuck yeah, dude, that's good. You know, like, but it's, maybe it's nonsense, you know, and maybe Bane is complete nonsense, you know?

• 1:03:12Sean Fennessey?

  I mean, this kind of ties into my general feelings about him now, which is I just think he's a much more mature filmmaker and a much more mature writer. And I think the things he's interested in are bigger and deeper than the kind of cool ideas that he was very famed for in the early stage of his career.

• 1:03:23Speaker 05

  PTA, why don't you take a pass on Killer of Flower Moon? You know what I mean? Like when it, it's just like.

• 1:03:28Sean Fennessey?

  Well, maybe he does. He's, I mean, he said that he called his brother Jonathan to talk to him about this.

• 1:03:32Speaker 05

  That's not the guy I wanted to talk to.

• 1:03:33Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah, ever.

• 1:03:35Sean Fennessey?

  He did talk about that though, and how he brought some things to it. And apparently Jonathan is the one who is even more into the, the myths and the histories. Uh, I believe Delos was the name of the corporation in Westworld.

• 1:03:44Speaker 05

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:03:45Sean Fennessey?

  Which is of course a critical part of the Greek myths. Uh, so yeah, I, I, look, nobody's been more critical than me of this exact thing.

• 1:03:54Speaker 05

  This is more.

• 1:03:54Amanda Dobbins?

  Listen, I just like, let's get Peter Morgan back in the paint, you know?

• 1:03:58Speaker 05

  We could do.

• 1:03:58Amanda Dobbins?

  I'm open to it.

• 1:03:59Sean Fennessey?

  What's he doing right now?

• 1:04:00Amanda Dobbins?

  I, they're making a prequel, I think.

• 1:04:02Sean Fennessey?

  Are they really?

• 1:04:02Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah, like of the, of, for the crown, but you know.

• 1:04:06Sean Fennessey?

  Didn't they make that? The King's Speech?

• 1:04:07Amanda Dobbins?

  No, that's, yeah. Also that happens in season one of The Crown, but that's fine.

• 1:04:13Sean Fennessey?

  It's too bad.

• 1:04:13Amanda Dobbins?

  Not the actual speech, but yeah, this would be post Victoria, pre Elizabeth.

• 1:04:19Speaker 05

  There's a couple of other notes.

• 1:04:20Sean Fennessey?

  Who was that? King, King Jim?

• 1:04:21Amanda Dobbins?

  It was George and Edward. There was an Edward and a George, I think.

• 1:04:24Sean Fennessey?

  King Ronald?

• 1:04:25Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah.

• 1:04:25Sean Fennessey?

  Was he ever a guy?

• 1:04:26Amanda Dobbins?

  That's him. Yeah.

• 1:04:27Sean Fennessey?

  King Jimothy?

• 1:04:29Speaker 05

  Don't, don't act like that's stolen valor on your part. You didn't know Jimothy was before this podcast.

• 1:04:34Sean Fennessey?

  Sell every joke I make, you're not on the show anymore.

• 1:04:36Amanda Dobbins?

  Have they checked Jimothy? What's going on with him?

• 1:04:39Speaker 05

  Uh, we're probably going to enter a Flaco situation with Jimothy where there's now like people going to Seattle to like protect Jimothy, but also document him.

• 1:04:48Sean Fennessey?

  But what if it's like a milkshake duck Jimothy situation where Jimothy actually is bad?

• 1:04:52Amanda Dobbins?

  I just watched a video of him moving. I only looked at pictures.

• 1:04:56Speaker 05

  Jimothy is a deformed raccoon that people are very.

• 1:05:00Sean Fennessey?

  Deformed? Is that the preferred nomi?

• 1:05:02Speaker 05

  Like a spinal condition.

• 1:05:04Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah.

• 1:05:04Sean Fennessey?

  Based on what? What? What do you mean what? Are you a raccoonologist? What are you talking about?

• 1:05:09Amanda Dobbins?

  Wait, was the first reference to Jimothy on this podcast or was it before?

• 1:05:12Sean Fennessey?

  No, it wasn't. I'm sorry.

• 1:05:13Amanda Dobbins?

  We only learned about Jimothy before recording while tossing.

• 1:05:21Sean Fennessey?

  We were doing so well making such a serious episode.

• 1:05:24Speaker 05

  Uh, I have a couple of more notes of not concern, but just like.

• 1:05:28Amanda Dobbins?

  You brought it up.

• 1:05:29Speaker 05

  Topics.

• 1:05:29Sean Fennessey?

  It did.

• 1:05:31Speaker 05

  The Jen Lame cutting style, which is honestly probably the most significant director editor partnership Nolan and Jen Lame since Corsese and Schumacher. I mean, you could, you could argue.

• 1:05:43Sean Fennessey?

  Um, yeah. I mean, Soderbergh and Mary Bernard, which is, which is who is him.

• 1:05:50Speaker 05

  And also his director photographer, Peter Andrews, which is him.

• 1:05:54Sean Fennessey?

  Yeah. Joel and Ethan Cohen and Roderick James. So who is them?

• 1:05:57Speaker 05

  The feeling you get knowing, like watching movies that she didn't cut versus movies that she did cut.

• 1:06:03Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah.

• 1:06:03Speaker 05

  It's like an evolution in his style that I think is very significant.

• 1:06:06Sean Fennessey?

  I would say, literally Quentin and Sally Menke is very similar. Like, whoa, I'm not, and, and another filmmaker who really messes with time, and especially in those early movies where he's like, where are we in the story? Oh, we're here. And that feeling of like, when you get to the end, for me, the last couple of Oppenheimer movies where you're like, wow, this fully paid off. Like that, that really, really satisfied feeling of every choice that you made led to something. And it wasn't just the tease of a bigger idea. It was about completing an idea. So I, I'm with you on that.

• 1:06:37Speaker 05

  And I love it. I, in my mind, was thinking about some of the sequences in the movie and if they had been given more room to breathe, or if they had had more of a buildup. And you know, this is where you get into like, that movie would be four hours. This movie, maybe this movie could have been a trilogy, you know, like.

• 1:06:54Sean Fennessey?

  We kind of tipped it, tipped towards that last week as well.

• 1:06:57Speaker 05

  Sirens, uh, Solon, Solon Krytus, like, uh, Lycra gonians especially, which I think is kind of like almost devoid of context in the, the movie. It's like another bad island they go to.

• 1:07:09Sean Fennessey?

  It is.

• 1:07:09Speaker 05

  Some of that I'm sure is just like, I have a runtime because my IMAX projectors can't show more than three hours. Is that the deal or what is it? Like?

• 1:07:17Sean Fennessey?

  No, no. I'm, I'm, I think it was more just like, how do we make this, um, legible for the audiences? Basically, you know?

• 1:07:24Speaker 05

  Be that as it may, there's a couple of sequences that I was like, in, I would have liked to have like built up to this, had it and then celebrated it for a minute, you know, like, and taken a breath. Just not you?

• 1:07:35Sean Fennessey?

  No, just, I'm, I'll ask you both this question. I'm not necessarily advocating for this, but if he had announced that he was doing this as an Infinity War endgame thing, where it was part one and part two, and it was two, two and a half hour movies.

• 1:07:48Sean Fennessey?

  Liked it? Not liked? Would you have balked at it without even seeing them?

• 1:07:52Amanda Dobbins?

  I always think constraints are good, you know? And I mean, and I think that's part of the reason that the, the Jen Lame metronome, that he, it is so helpful to him. So I think once you expand it to five hours, like, you know, I'm sure there would be a lot more spectacle, but I think that's also room for a lot more dialogue that isn't as polished, just the siren scene.

• 1:08:11Speaker 05

  Sure.

• 1:08:11Amanda Dobbins?

  You know, like part of, I think what is so powerful about both of those sequences is that like it happens and you've been waiting your whole life to know what the sound of the sirens really is. And, you know, it's everything that you can't have anymore. And then it's out. And you're just like, damn.

• 1:08:26Speaker 05

  Uh, my last takeaway is the Haiti scene is like one of the sickest things I've ever seen.

• 1:08:30Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah.

• 1:08:31Speaker 05

  It's just so awesome.

• 1:08:32Amanda Dobbins?

  You been to Iceland?

• 1:08:33Speaker 05

  No.

• 1:08:34Sean Fennessey?

  No. We, we.

• 1:08:36Speaker 05

  Shout out to James Raymar.

• 1:08:38Sean Fennessey?

  Uh, yeah. I mean, he was, uh, he was in Oppenheimer. This is another person that he is recurring with. He keeps recurring with all of these actors. You know, could've been Tom Berenger, alas. Um, I love that scene. To me.

• 1:08:53Sean Fennessey?

  That might be the best work that Ludwig Gerson does in the movie. That we were listening to that in the car with my daughter over the weekend. And it's so atonal and strange and experimental and so different from the bronze gongs and the the sort of the harmony and musicality of the woodwind instruments on the score that like, it feels like Trent Reznor made it. Like, it's very strange.

• 1:09:17Speaker 05

  Are you prepared for the possibility that your daughter is gonna be in like, fourth grade and is like, I like John Dillman and Ornette Coleman?

• 1:09:24Sean Fennessey?

  No, no, cuz like, she's still into all the basic kid stuff.

• 1:09:27Speaker 05

  Okay.

• 1:09:27Sean Fennessey?

  You know, she's like, I need to watch Tangled, you know? Like, that's the best movie ever made. So she's normal, but she's getting some, some undergirding of taste.

• 1:09:36Speaker 05

  I love it.

• 1:09:36Sean Fennessey?

  That's what we're going for.

• 1:09:37Speaker 05

  Those were, those were my huge, big takeaways. Those were my big takeaways.

• 1:09:41Sean Fennessey?

  Anything that you've thought about since, uh, since we last spoke?

• 1:09:46Amanda Dobbins?

  I've thought about the characterization of Odysseus cuz I did go back and, and do more Emily Wilson. And I think it's interesting to me than I think in any other Nolan movie I would have given and have given the, the extra sympathy and the great manning-ness of a character who texturally, you know, gets up to some questionable stuff. It totally works for me. And I, I don't know whether that's just because I get swept up in, in everything else that's going on. I don't know whether that's because I think he does more with the other characters in the story to kinda, to balance it out. And

• 1:10:28Amanda Dobbins?

  he's, you know, Odysseus is not totally heroic. Maybe it's just that it's Matt Damon. When we talk about the other Nolan movies, I think casting really goes a long way in terms of whether I respond or I don't. So, um, I think that's interesting. I also just, it's big year for puppets. And I'm, shout out puppets.

• 1:10:47Sean Fennessey?

  Could Ryan Gosling have done this part?

• 1:10:49Amanda Dobbins?

  Hmm, no.

• 1:10:50Sean Fennessey?

  Could Ben Affleck have done it?

• 1:10:53Amanda Dobbins?

  Different movie, but yes.

• 1:10:54Speaker 05

  It would have been a much different movie.

• 1:10:56Sean Fennessey?

  Can he do period? He has, but can he?

• 1:11:01Amanda Dobbins?

  Uh, he could do, I think he could do this, but it would be different.

• 1:11:05Sean Fennessey?

  Leonardo DiCaprio.

• 1:11:07Speaker 05

  I had this conversation with Bill yesterday.

• 1:11:10Sean Fennessey?

  He baited you right into it. And again, then created a bunch of fake categories to rate whether or not he was better.

• 1:11:14Speaker 05

  He was like, tomorrow we're gonna talk about Damon versus Leo. And I thought we were gonna be like, did, is Bill gonna debut Leo should have been Odysseus? And instead, it was kind of like, let's look at the entire body of work and I guess who wins. Uh, I was thinking more along the lines of like, um, Fassbender?

• 1:11:33Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah, that's a, that's a very different movie. That's, that's no feelings at all.

• 1:11:38Sean Fennessey?

  He codes rage and discontent.

• 1:11:41Amanda Dobbins?

  That's Don't Come Home, big guy.

• 1:11:42Sean Fennessey?

  That's right. Um, and the two that I-

• 1:11:44Amanda Dobbins?

  Well, yeah, that's true.

• 1:11:46Sean Fennessey?

  Go to Amanda's house. Yeah.

• 1:11:48Speaker 05

  The door's always open.

• 1:11:49Sean Fennessey?

  Swing by Calypso's beach. Um, uh, the two that are the most interesting to me in the context, actually, the three that are most interesting to me in the context of the Nolanography is Killian Murphy, who I think is inherently sympathetic and quite sad as a performer. Tom Hardy, who is violent and rageful and mumbly.

• 1:12:11Speaker 05

  But you'd be out there on the ocean and he'd decide he had a different voice for this part of the movie.

• 1:12:16Sean Fennessey?

  Yeah, that would be very strange. And the one to me that is really, really, really interesting is Christian Bale. And is this a better movie? It's a different movie. Is it a better movie with Christian Bale? It's a ridiculous question to ask, but we're podcasting. I'm fascinated by it because he has the physical presence. He has the age. He could play young and play old. He can play a warrior. He can play a very intelligent trickster figure. Like, he, and he just frankly is like, maybe one of the two or three best actors of his generation, pretty widely accepted.

• 1:12:47Speaker 05

  I, I don't know that this, I, I love what wound up happening with the vernacular of this movie and, and people speaking in this colloquial American and saying, 10 years on this fucking beach. And, and, you know, the way that Himesh Patel and him interact, feeling like a war movie that was made two years ago about Desert Storm or Vietnam. And it's, there's no difference. Bale, God, he would have been good. But it would have been different.

• 1:13:18Amanda Dobbins?

  I don't think it would be hopeful in any way, in addition to, there would be less sympathy, though I think Christian Bale can bring a little. But I, I think that Nolan gets away with 90% of the ending up to the last two lines because you, you believe in Damon and his essential goodness. And, and you really believe that that person would come back and feel regret and shame and have introspection. And I think Bale would have all of those things, but I don't know whether he would turn it into even the possibility of civilization rising again.

• 1:13:52Sean Fennessey?

  Yeah, he's not as inherently a romantic figure. Um, it's just an interesting thing cuz he's, you know, he's gotten great performances at a lot of leading men over the years. And it's so funny to me that he chose the first Damon leading part in his, one of his movies to be this guy.

• 1:14:08Speaker 05

  Yeah, I think it's been interesting to hear the reactions to some of the central performances. I think especially Holland, who I guess is, is very good to unremarkable to me in this movie, but that's exactly what he's supposed to be. So-

• 1:14:26Sean Fennessey?

  I think if he had been allowed to speak in his native accent, I wouldn't have blanched at it as much. But to me, I was just like-

• 1:14:31Amanda Dobbins?

  The, the R's are hard for him.

• 1:14:32Sean Fennessey?

  Yeah.

• 1:14:33Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah.

• 1:14:33Sean Fennessey?

  I just, I, I was a little just thrown off every time he was speaking.

• 1:14:36Amanda Dobbins?

  It is true. There is, when he comes back and he enters the hall again, it doesn't have to speak, but he just looks like, you know, the golden boy returned home. And I feel everything I'm supposed to feel of his casting in that moment. And then he speaks in his American accent again.

• 1:14:50Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 1:14:51Sean Fennessey?

  Do you think he could take Logan Marshall Green one on one?

• 1:14:54Speaker 05

  I think there's a real reason why they, they saddled Logan Marshall Green with Spurs. First of all, also, can I just say, my favorite two, the Terror Twins, Logan Marshall Green and Mia Goth. Would love to party with them.

• 1:15:05Sean Fennessey?

  You know who else I really enjoyed who we didn't mention on the first episode is Corey Hawkins?

• 1:15:08Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 1:15:09Sean Fennessey?

  Who is, you know, playing sidekick to, to Antonus. And also, just a lot of actors who really command the screen in this movie in such a great way. There's been a lot of talk of Leguizamo, who I think is amazing. And I think probably is gonna get an Oscar campaign for him because he's somebody who's never really been recognized before and has done a lot of things like this where you're like, oh, John Leguizamo's in that? And you're like, oh, of course. John Leguizamo, he feasts on roles like this.

• 1:15:32Speaker 05

  I also really liked the guy who's kinda like third on the boat next to Odysseus and Himesh Patel.

• 1:15:38Sean Fennessey?

  Yeah, what's that guy's name?

• 1:15:39Speaker 05

  Who's the one who in Tenet, he feeds John David Washington, he's torturing John David Washington.

• 1:15:44Sean Fennessey?

  He plays the Ukrainian, yeah.

• 1:15:45Speaker 05

  Trains are coming. And he's been in a million things, but is a great heavy.

• 1:15:48Sean Fennessey?

  Okay, so we're talking about Andrew Howard.

• 1:15:50Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 1:15:50Sean Fennessey?

  Who, uh, plays, is it, is it Politis? Politis?

• 1:15:55Amanda Dobbins?

  I don't remember everybody's name.

• 1:15:56Sean Fennessey?

  How do you pronounce the name? You know, I don't know. I don't speak Greek. Um, and who was, in fact, the driver in Tenet.

• 1:16:02Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 1:16:02Sean Fennessey?

  And-

• 1:16:03Speaker 05

  Feels like he's been in 104 Guy Ritchie movies, perhaps has been in none. I don't know.

• 1:16:08Sean Fennessey?

  Yeah, he's great. Uh, okay, let's talk just a little bit more about Nolan before ranking these movies. So I've been talking about how I see him differently the last few movies. And I have a different relationship to his movies. Has your relationship changed?

• 1:16:23Amanda Dobbins?

  Probably, I think because he's moved away from the, the Jonathan sci-fi. And we have more movies in the, you know, in a row, in the back half of his, of his career that are not just mind bent, total mind bending. They have mind bending elements, but they are more in the real world and more real actors doing real things. And I respond to that. Um, but probably not in terms of my assessment of like, his competence or even what he does that I respond positively or negatively to. I think I have been pretty consistent in what works and what does not work.

• 1:17:01Sean Fennessey?

  What about for you?

• 1:17:01Speaker 05

  I'm a fan. So it's like, I, I don't think I, if you would ask me in 2008 with Dark Knight, I think I probably thought of him as like, the best in class when it comes to IP adaptation stuff. And there is like a weird sliding door where Man of Steel is like this giant hit, this Zack Snyder Superman movie, and Nolan is overseeing like a DC cinematic universe. And that might change the course of modern movie history.

• 1:17:30Sean Fennessey?

  I don't know if he ever would have done that. And I mean, that's honestly a strike against Nolan, that his decision for the Superman movie was to choose Zack Snyder.

• 1:17:37Speaker 05

  Sure.

• 1:17:37Sean Fennessey?

  That's not cool. Like, that movie sucks. So, um, I think that movie's evil. So, yeah, I, uh-

• 1:17:45Speaker 05

  That's funny.

• 1:17:46Sean Fennessey?

  Do you not agree?

• 1:17:47Speaker 05

  Uh, I haven't watched it in a very long time, but I'm not gonna get mad at him for executive producing.

• 1:17:52Sean Fennessey?

  I'm not mad. I'm just saying it's a strike against him. Don't put in the newspaper that I'm mad.

• 1:17:58Speaker 05

  I would say that there's something bittersweet about this because he has told everyone now that he is gonna take three years off, that this movie took everything out of him. And selfishly, I want more. Like, I want the best filmmakers to be prolific. And I know how hard this is, although I, I'm still trying to wrap my mind around doing this in Oppenheimer in the course of three years. Like-

• 1:18:22Sean Fennessey?

  It's pretty crazy.

• 1:18:23Speaker 05

  But I, this definitely feels like an end of a phase, an end of an era for him.

• 1:18:29Sean Fennessey?

  I've been wondering that. Do you think that's true?

• 1:18:32Amanda Dobbins?

  I mean, what else could be bigger? What else can you do at this point? Where has he not filmed?

• 1:18:38Sean Fennessey?

  The joke on, online this weekend was, uh, Moby Dick. That that is, there have been adaptations of Moby Dick, but none that really rise to the-

• 1:18:45Speaker 05

  I think he wants to take a break from the water.

• 1:18:47Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah.

• 1:18:47Sean Fennessey?

  I wouldn't blame him. I mean, Moby Dick is kind of half unadaptable because so much of it is about like, you know, um, sailing strategies around that time. But there's few, few people who can take on movies of this magnitude. What I'm kinda hoping for personally is that there is a generation of directors who see a movie like this and want to attempt it and can convince studios to attempt it. That we don't just reserve a movie like this to the two or three living people who we know can make a movie like this. And that there are a few more chances taken. Cuz so much of the like, CGI rot that we've gotten over the years with movies is cuz people don't trust people to make stuff like this practically.

• 1:19:29Speaker 05

  And I get it cuz like, some of my favorite movies are things like Lost City of Z or Babylon, where you're like, you, if you were a studio head, you could be like, I fucking tried. You can't blame me. Nobody went to see this, you know?

• 1:19:42Sean Fennessey?

  It's true.

• 1:19:43Speaker 05

  And it's-

• 1:19:44Sean Fennessey?

  They're not easy to make and they're not easy to pull off.

• 1:19:45Amanda Dobbins?

  And, yeah, they don't, I mean, and they don't always work. Even our, in our epic movie drafts, we, that we had a lot of the greatest movies ever made. And then we're just like rooting around in the bargain bin for a third biblical epic that anyone wants to talk about.

• 1:19:57Sean Fennessey?

  Very true.

• 1:19:57Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 1:19:58Sean Fennessey?

  You know, you mentioned some of the, those forebears. Like, do you think in 50 years or 100 years, he will be studied as one of the great critical filmmakers in the, in the evolution of the art form? This is assuming there are still movies at that, at that time.

• 1:20:16Amanda Dobbins?

  Certainly, at least from a sociological and, you know, and technical point of view. That the IMAX camera of it all alone and what that has kind of introduced in terms of everyone getting freaky with their Vista Vision and being like XYZ, you know, I think will at least be worth like one day on a syllabus, right? But the films themselves, also the role that he played in the superhero movement, which is, you know, part of 21st century cinema at this point. And box office wise, I think Oscars wise at this point, I think he already has more Oscars than Hitchcock and Kubrick. He does. Yeah, so. Damn.

• 1:21:00Sean Fennessey?

  Well, Hitchcock has zero competitive and Kubrick has one for visual effects.

• 1:21:05Speaker 05

  I think you have to look at it in a larger context than just like, he's a great director and he's in his prime. He's also, I think, like a lung for the movie business. And is like, his, his sort of stepping into the void after COVID to like bring theatrical experiences back and his last few films.

• 1:21:24Sean Fennessey?

  He held the fucking line on that. And like, I personally will forever be grateful to him for being that person who was just like, this movie's going in fucking theaters, so I don't care.

• 1:21:33Speaker 05

  Yeah. And I think imagining a future for movies that doesn't feel like, forgive me, like, but what if it was more AI? Or what if it was like, we've rendered this world inside of a new cool software engine? Like imagining a way to keep being like, there's a person, this is the real world, I'm going to shoot it and it's going to feel, make you feel something, I think is like a really invaluable contribution, maybe even a bigger one than, than any one film that he's made.

• 1:22:01Sean Fennessey?

  Just as a counterpoint to the question earlier, is it possible that this is the end of an era, not just for him, but for movies? That this actually will be the last movie that is like that because of the incursion of this new technology that more and more people are signing up to participate with?

• 1:22:15Amanda Dobbins?

  I mean, that's Ben Damon's talking point, right? That he said, you know, I, I took this as my last chance, maybe just because of where he is in his career and he's not going to do physical stuff at this level probably forever. Though, you know, I believe and we've made a lot of advancements in, you know, body hacking.

• 1:22:33Sean Fennessey?

  Sure.

• 1:22:34Amanda Dobbins?

  And he went gluten free, he said.

• 1:22:35Sean Fennessey?

  Did he?

• 1:22:36Amanda Dobbins?

  So, yeah, he said that on the New York Times Cooking interview.

• 1:22:38Sean Fennessey?

  Couldn't be made. He did a New York Times Cooking interview?

• 1:22:40Amanda Dobbins?

  With Tom Holland, they made pizza. Yeah, the Pizza Kitchen, yeah.

• 1:22:43Sean Fennessey?

  I think that's us corny, but whatever. Come make pizza with me, you know, this is a movie podcast.

• 1:22:47Amanda Dobbins?

  What would you put on your pizza?

• 1:22:49Sean Fennessey?

  I didn't ask him to come on, by the way. What would I put on my pizza?

• 1:22:52Amanda Dobbins?

  Right, yeah.

• 1:22:53Sean Fennessey?

  Gosh.

• 1:22:54Amanda Dobbins?

  You don't make the pizza, Eileen does, so.

• 1:22:56Sean Fennessey?

  Eileen makes the pizza.

• 1:22:57Speaker 05

  High protein cottage cheese.

• 1:22:58Sean Fennessey?

  You don't like mushrooms?

• 1:22:59Amanda Dobbins?

  Don't tell him about that.

• 1:23:01Speaker 05

  I like mushrooms.

• 1:23:02Sean Fennessey?

  Mushrooms on pizza is good.

• 1:23:03Amanda Dobbins?

  You left all the mushrooms on that pasta.

• 1:23:05Sean Fennessey?

  Bacon on there sometimes, you know, some fajitas.

• 1:23:08Amanda Dobbins?

  Like you ate the pasta out of the mushrooms, okay?

• 1:23:10Speaker 05

  But that was just like, it's like any kind of bolognese, like, there's just the bolognese to pasta ratio is often off. I don't want to just eat a bowl of ground beef at the end of my pasta dinner. And so the same went for this mushroom bolognese that I had. I had lovely mushrooms with the rigatoni.

• 1:23:26Sean Fennessey?

  We are recording this.

• 1:23:27Speaker 05

  I just feel like I've gotten put on blast for this mushroom thing.

• 1:23:32Amanda Dobbins?

  Anyway, so I think, you know, Damon has said this, I took this in part because this was the last time I would ever get to do this. And that is a referendum on his career, but also the way that movies are made now. I'm just hopeful that the bonanza that is this movie and, and the bonanza in comparison with whatever sad Avengers shit is going on.

• 1:23:53Sean Fennessey?

  Dude, part three, though, is, is similar to this.

• 1:23:56Amanda Dobbins?

  Totally, sure.

• 1:23:57Sean Fennessey?

  It's similar. It has a lot more visual effects work because it's science fiction, but shot in real places on real landscapes in a way that feels like it's part of some natural world, right?

• 1:24:06Speaker 05

  It's like, maybe what it like, maybe we won't be able to tell what this movie means for 15 years and we can reconvene then, you know?

• 1:24:16Sean Fennessey?

  The three of us?

• 1:24:17Speaker 05

  Yeah, and just be like, did we see a wave of filmmakers?

• 1:24:20Sean Fennessey?

  Would you want to do that?

• 1:24:21Speaker 05

  Sure. Well, I'll be.

• 1:24:23Amanda Dobbins?

  You'll be 64.

• 1:24:24Speaker 05

  I'll be right. Yeah, you can give me a gold watch and you can say, thanks for the pod.

• 1:24:28Sean Fennessey?

  See ours last app, yeah. Will you retire?

• 1:24:30Speaker 05

  I want to see where Bill goes. I want to see how Bill does senior, his, his.

• 1:24:36Sean Fennessey?

  Because you'll follow him anywhere or because you just want to know that, how to chart the path?

• 1:24:39Speaker 05

  What's the appetite for an old version, like a really old version of me being like, ah, you know, this, this Succession reboot didn't work for me. I'm 74.

• 1:24:50Sean Fennessey?

  What's the absolute oldest age you want to be while recording a podcast?

• 1:24:55Amanda Dobbins?

  Is there video?

• 1:24:56Sean Fennessey?

  There is video.

• 1:24:58Amanda Dobbins?

  Okay.

• 1:24:59Sean Fennessey?

  They're not going to take video away at this point. I don't think that's on the table.

• 1:25:01Speaker 05

  But you could be like the Charlotte Rampling of video podcasts.

• 1:25:04Amanda Dobbins?

  That's the nicest thing you've ever said to me. Thank you.

• 1:25:07Sean Fennessey?

  What do you mean?

• 1:25:08Speaker 05

  Just like, just showing.

• 1:25:09Sean Fennessey?

  Smoking hot at 70?

• 1:25:11Amanda Dobbins?

  Being like, nothing else here makes sense, but I still look good. Uh, sure, yeah. If I can look like Charlotte Rampling, then, you know, age has no limit.

• 1:25:19Sean Fennessey?

  Good to know.

• 1:25:21Speaker 05

  What about you, man?

• 1:25:22Sean Fennessey?

  This is it. This is the last episode for me. I'm done. I just wanted to get to the Odyssey and now I'm done. Um, you want to rank the movies?

• 1:25:29Speaker 05

  Sure.

• 1:25:30Sean Fennessey?

  Now, I suggested, should there be two separate rankings here?

• 1:25:34Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah.

• 1:25:35Speaker 05

  Which is what?

• 1:25:36Sean Fennessey?

  Should, should there be my weird scale and then you guys? But Amanda says she wants to have some.

• 1:25:41Amanda Dobbins?

  But I also think that this is, we're not, you know, at odds. This is a collective.

• 1:25:47Speaker 05

  Yeah, this is, we're doing this as we are advocating or are we doing three separate rankings?

• 1:25:53Amanda Dobbins?

  No, we're doing it together.

• 1:25:54Speaker 05

  Okay, great. So I don't have to have like my preordained list.

• 1:25:56Amanda Dobbins?

  No, no, no, we're doing it together. And he, what he wanted to do is that we would team up because we have similar tastes and then he'd do his.

• 1:26:02Sean Fennessey?

  We have some pretty clear divergions in terms of, I'm not going to trash anything. I don't think anything here is worth trashing. Um, I think this is a very interesting filmography. I think there are ups and downs, mostly ups.

• 1:26:15Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah.

• 1:26:16Sean Fennessey?

  Both financially, critically, all those things. You know, I think most people will look at Following and Insomnia as 13 and 12 in some order.

• 1:26:28Speaker 05

  Are there any Insomniac heads out there?

• 1:26:30Amanda Dobbins?

  I rewatched most of it last night.

• 1:26:33Speaker 05

  Okay.

• 1:26:34Amanda Dobbins?

  Honestly, I had a pretty good time.

• 1:26:35Speaker 05

  It's pretty good.

• 1:26:36Amanda Dobbins?

  It's pretty good. I mean, it's, you know, if you're going to put it at the lowest, it's because it is not a screenplay by Nolan and it is like the least Nolan-y.

• 1:26:44Sean Fennessey?

  It's such a studio job.

• 1:26:46Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah, you can't use it as a text to explain every other movie, but like the action sequences are pretty good when the log chase.

• 1:26:53Sean Fennessey?

  Very good Robin Williams performance, yeah. I, I think it's pretty good. I mean, I remember seeing this in theaters because I love Memento and I was like, okay, cool, we got one of these guys and he, he is not what I thought he was, like he has turned into something I never would have imagined after watching that movie. After watching Insomnia, I was like, okay, so he's going to be like James Foley or something, you know, like really good kind of genre, like down and dirty.

• 1:27:13Speaker 05

  James Mangold.

• 1:27:14Sean Fennessey?

  Yeah, yeah. And he has obviously elevated beyond that.

• 1:27:16Speaker 05

  It's so wild because like, if you watch, like, you know, if you're in that era and you're going up, up until 2010, if you'd been like, next Christopher Nolan is going to do James Bond, or he's going to revive Indiana Jones, or we're going to give him this, I kind of would have believed you. Like, it wasn't like now I'm like, you know, like, I have like literally no concept of what he would, he could make next, but there was a safe pair of hands-ness to him back then.

• 1:27:41Sean Fennessey?

  Yeah. I think it was just that I was like, okay, he's a, he's a noir crime director because Following, Memento and Insomnia are all just crime movies in different ways. One's a serial killer movie, you know, one's a, a con man movie, one's a murdering, a memory murder movie, but I, it's weird because like, Following is very remedial, it's got a really great idea, it's made for a very small amount of money, clearly over a long period of time as of like a de facto student film, but there's, there are a lot of jokes about this now, but like, it's all in there.

• 1:28:13Amanda Dobbins?

  Right.

• 1:28:14Sean Fennessey?

  Like all the stuff that interests him and the way that he plays with time and the way that he removes or conceals information and then shows it to you in a shocking way. There's a man named Cobb in the film. There's a Batman sticker on one of the doors, like all the stuff is in there, you know, breaking and entering, slipping away, a blonde, poorly written female character. Um, all of his.

• 1:28:38Amanda Dobbins?

  Stand in, men who look and speak like Christopher Nolan.

• 1:28:41Sean Fennessey?

  Very much. Um, so all of it suited men, by the way. Um, so it's all kind of in there. It's pretty nifty as a first micro budgeted feature.

• 1:28:49Speaker 05

  Would you still put it at 16?

• 1:28:50Sean Fennessey?

  Well, I guess it's, it's more like, is Insomnia just a better movie even if, if Following is a more critical film for him? What do you, so how do you, how do you see it?

• 1:29:01Speaker 05

  I, I think I just enjoy watching Al Pacino, so I would, I would have Insomnia higher than The Following. I think Pacino, Robin Williams are, are kind of like, and that's where he starts to like, really start to move into like, I can kind of identify something in someone that people like and I'm going to, I'm going to emphasize it.

• 1:29:19Sean Fennessey?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. What do you think?

• 1:29:21Amanda Dobbins?

  I really like more Tierney, so we can put Following at 13.

• 1:29:27Sean Fennessey?

  Following 13, Insomnia 12.

• 1:29:28Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah.

• 1:29:29Sean Fennessey?

  I tell you what, if I was asked to sit down right now, I personally would rather watch Insomnia than Batman Begins. I know that's crazy. I'm not saying it's better, but just in terms of like what kind of movie watching experience I want to have, maybe that's because there are two other Batman movies I would much rather watch.

• 1:29:45Speaker 05

  It is nuts how much more I watch Dark Knight and Dark Knight Rises and I just rarely am ever firing up Batman Begins. And part of it is because of the origin myth of Bruce Wayne stuff where I'm just like, I just feel like I've experienced this so many times.

• 1:29:58Amanda Dobbins?

  But did you feel that way in 2005?

• 1:30:00Speaker 05

  You know what, what I thought in 2005 was.

• 1:30:05Speaker 05

  In some ways, what I thought with Oppenheimer or with Odyssey was just like, he's moving a little too fast. Like, there's not, it goes from going to find Ra's al Ghul to back to Gotham to, you know, like, it's very fleet of foot. But yeah, like, I am not a huge Batman Begins guy.

• 1:30:25Amanda Dobbins?

  I was and remain absolutely terrified by the Scarecrow in a way that I think like is speaks well of the movie. That is an achievement that I basically don't want to watch it because I just can't see that on screen.

• 1:30:36Sean Fennessey?

  It's a good call. He's a good villain.

• 1:30:38Amanda Dobbins?

  So, so that recommends it. And I think I would probably rather watch any of the Batman movies more than the really hardcore sci-fi stuff, but that's, that's just Amanda.

• 1:30:51Sean Fennessey?

  Yeah, that's the issue is I have Inception somewhat low. You have Interstellar somewhat low.

• 1:30:58Sean Fennessey?

  I'd, I would rather watch Inception and Stellar, even if they're not my favorites over Batman Begins. It's why I'm kind of throwing it out there this early.

• 1:31:05Speaker 05

  I think you could put it at 11.

• 1:31:06Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah, I don't have a problem with it.

• 1:31:08Sean Fennessey?

  It's not bad. I think that's not, I don't mean to communicate that it's bad.

• 1:31:12Speaker 05

  It doesn't have, it doesn't have a villain the way that the other two do. And I think the counterweight of having Liam Neeson's good.

• 1:31:20Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah.

• 1:31:21Speaker 05

  But it doesn't have Joker or Bane.

• 1:31:23Amanda Dobbins?

  I mean, it has a rare Katie Holmes performance from this era.

• 1:31:26Sean Fennessey?

  What do you think of that, Rachel?

• 1:31:28Amanda Dobbins?

  Well, I, I think it was better for everyone when Maggie Gyllenhaal showed up. Maybe not better for Katie Holmes, but she's, she's a street style star now, so.

• 1:31:37Sean Fennessey?

  Is that what she is?

• 1:31:38Speaker 05

  Katie Holmes?

• 1:31:39Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah, I mean, she's also, you know, making and directing films and, and I think. No, I don't think the new one with Joshua Jackson has been released yet.

• 1:31:48Sean Fennessey?

  Wow.

• 1:31:49Amanda Dobbins?

  But I'll see it.

• 1:31:51Speaker 05

  What is the choice that Bruce, that Batman has to make at the end of Dark Knight? Is it, you can either, either Rachel blows up?

• 1:32:00Sean Fennessey?

  Save Rachel or Harvey Dent.

• 1:32:01Speaker 05

  All right.

• 1:32:03Sean Fennessey?

  And explain to me again what happens. He chooses Harvey Dent, but he thinks he's choosing Rachel? And Joker flipped it on him?

• 1:32:10Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 1:32:11Amanda Dobbins?

  I don't know, it was spoiled for me.

• 1:32:13Sean Fennessey?

  Yeah.

• 1:32:13Speaker 05

  By, by us just now?

• 1:32:15Amanda Dobbins?

  No, no, no, no.

• 1:32:15Sean Fennessey?

  Where's Rachel?

• 1:32:18Speaker 05

  Okay, Batman Begins at 11. What do you got at 10?

• 1:32:21Sean Fennessey?

  Well, this is where it gets a little hard. I think this is, to me, this is where it gets a little hard. Are you guys gonna say that you think Memento belongs here?

• 1:32:31Amanda Dobbins?

  No.

• 1:32:32Speaker 05

  Are you gonna say that you think Inception belongs here?

• 1:32:35Sean Fennessey?

  If it were my list, Inception comes in around here.

• 1:32:41Speaker 05

  I think Inception's a superior film than Memento.

• 1:32:43Amanda Dobbins?

  I do as well.

• 1:32:44Sean Fennessey?

  I completely understand. Again, this is why I offered the opportunity to have separate lists.

• 1:32:49Amanda Dobbins?

  Well, listen, we're talking about it together. So if Inception is a no, would you like to offer something else? Would you like us to offer a counter?

• 1:32:57Sean Fennessey?

  Sure.

• 1:32:57Amanda Dobbins?

  Why have, why have I taken the role of like, couples therapist?

• 1:33:01Sean Fennessey?

  Yeah, that's exactly. Yeah, you want to do it together. Broker this piece between Chris and I.

• 1:33:05Amanda Dobbins?

  I just want to heal. I want this guy back, you know?

• 1:33:08Speaker 05

  What do you mean?

• 1:33:08Amanda Dobbins?

  From Toronto, you know, just from a van ride.

• 1:33:11Speaker 05

  We've been having such a good time today. We think, I greeted you, we've been talking cuss.

• 1:33:16Amanda Dobbins?

  I just want to make sure that it's okay.

• 1:33:18Sean Fennessey?

  Chicken?

• 1:33:19Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah.

• 1:33:19Sean Fennessey?

  Remembering the good times? Third item.

• 1:33:22Speaker 05

  I have a solution here for us.

• 1:33:23Amanda Dobbins?

  Okay.

• 1:33:24Speaker 05

  So we're trying to decide, like, does this, does Inception go at 10?

• 1:33:27Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah.

• 1:33:28Speaker 05

  Does Memento go at 10? What if we put Dark Knight Rises at 10?

• 1:33:31Amanda Dobbins?

  Oh, okay.

• 1:33:32Sean Fennessey?

  I think that's right.

• 1:33:33Amanda Dobbins?

  That's big of you.

• 1:33:34Sean Fennessey?

  Now, Dark Knight Rises.

• 1:33:35Amanda Dobbins?

  But that, you know.

• 1:33:36Sean Fennessey?

  You're the number one defender.

• 1:33:37Speaker 05

  No, I am, I am a Bane apologist. I think Dark Knight Rises is often quite silly.

• 1:33:43Sean Fennessey?

  Yeah, it is. It is. It's actually kind of amazing how bad it is at times relative to where he's at in his career at this time.

• 1:33:51Amanda Dobbins?

  But it's like a really good number 10. I think number 10 is the right place to put it. And then we can say, but, but honestly, it goes hard when it goes hard.

• 1:33:59Speaker 05

  It basically saves us from having to be like hurt anybody's feelings because I don't, I love Bane as much as anybody else in his character universe.

• 1:34:08Sean Fennessey?

  Okay.

• 1:34:09Speaker 05

  But the movie itself is, in fact, sometimes kind of bad, I think.

• 1:34:15Sean Fennessey?

  It's kind of weird. I mean, it's.

• 1:34:16Speaker 05

  It's also so long.

• 1:34:18Sean Fennessey?

  And this came out after Interstellar. Isn't that so strange?

• 1:34:22Amanda Dobbins?

  It did?

• 1:34:23Sean Fennessey?

  Yeah. No, it didn't. Dark Knight Rises is 2012, Interstellar is 2014.

• 1:34:27Speaker 05

  It came out after Inception.

• 1:34:28Sean Fennessey?

  Sorry, after Inception.

• 1:34:29Speaker 05

  He made Inception in between Dark Knight and Dark Knight Rises.

• 1:34:30Sean Fennessey?

  Thank you. You know, it's kind of fascinating to think that a movie that has as much plot incoherence as Dark Knight Rises is from the same filmmaker as Interstellar, who's like, visually commanding the screen in such a profound way. Um, okay, I'm good with that. I have to be like a little bit of a jellyfish now. Like, you guys have to kind of tell me where you want to go.

• 1:34:50Amanda Dobbins?

  Okay.

• 1:34:51Sean Fennessey?

  From, from nine through six.

• 1:34:52Amanda Dobbins?

  Is that what you imagine a jellyfish experience is like?

• 1:34:55Sean Fennessey?

  Well, don't get too close to me or I'll sting you, but otherwise, um, I want you to have, we can have a safe distance. A brokered piece.

• 1:35:05Speaker 05

  Okay.

• 1:35:05Amanda Dobbins?

  Your understanding of the ocean is always evolving.

• 1:35:08Sean Fennessey?

  I'm from Long Island. I've always been, I've been surrounded by the ocean my entire life.

• 1:35:12Amanda Dobbins?

  And you refuse to visit it.

• 1:35:13Sean Fennessey?

  I love the ocean. I hate the sand. This is a longstanding take. If we can remove the sand from the beach.

• 1:35:19Amanda Dobbins?

  I have said this to him every single time and he's like, did you know?

• 1:35:22Sean Fennessey?

  I haven't been.

• 1:35:23Amanda Dobbins?

  No one would take us on a yacht in Cannes next year.

• 1:35:25Sean Fennessey?

  It's a real Anakin Skywalker, I hate sand situation. I just don't like sand.

• 1:35:29Amanda Dobbins?

  Okay.

• 1:35:29Sean Fennessey?

  I don't like what it does. You know, I don't love the sun, but I get it.

• 1:35:33Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah, it's constitutional.

• 1:35:35Sean Fennessey?

  I get it.

• 1:35:35Amanda Dobbins?

  We could get you some hats.

• 1:35:36Sean Fennessey?

  If we could have an overcast hot day in the ocean, that's the best.

• 1:35:39Speaker 05

  An overcast hot day in the ocean?

• 1:35:42Sean Fennessey?

  Yeah.

• 1:35:43Speaker 05

  That's what like they have when the worst of the worst is happening in the Odyssey.

• 1:35:48Amanda Dobbins?

  And this is the man who wants to put Inception at number nine. Okay.

• 1:35:53Sean Fennessey?

  You gotta have a strong point of view on things. That's, that's how we get through life.

• 1:35:56Speaker 05

  Have you revisited, when was the last time you watched Inception?

• 1:35:58Sean Fennessey?

  I watched it during COVID.

• 1:36:00Amanda Dobbins?

  That's not that recent anymore.

• 1:36:02Sean Fennessey?

  That's true. 21, maybe? You can like check my logs. Um.

• 1:36:06Speaker 05

  I'll pass.

• 1:36:07Amanda Dobbins?

  Never say that to me again. Literally, or.

• 1:36:12Speaker 05

  I have to admit.

• 1:36:14Sean Fennessey?

  If I had a diary, would you read my diary?

• 1:36:16Amanda Dobbins?

  No.

• 1:36:17Speaker 05

  Yes.

• 1:36:17Amanda Dobbins?

  No.

• 1:36:19Speaker 05

  My texting with you is probably deep.

• 1:36:21Amanda Dobbins?

  Until I write the novel about you and then I will use it as, you know.

• 1:36:24Speaker 05

  That's right. I probably text you 8% less now because I used to be like, did you see this? And now I know I could just look at your letterbox, but that seems so impersonal.

• 1:36:34Sean Fennessey?

  I think, you know what? Just come on over to my house. Ask me a question face to face like a man.

• 1:36:38Speaker 05

  Come to your house at 11:45 PM and be like, have you seen the horror movie The Passenger?

• 1:36:44Sean Fennessey?

  I think that movie's just called Passenger.

• 1:36:46Speaker 05

  Passenger, sorry.

• 1:36:47Sean Fennessey?

  I think The Passenger is an Antonio Emane movie. I didn't see Passenger. Was it any good?

• 1:36:50Speaker 05

  There's some good stuff in it.

• 1:36:51Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah.

• 1:36:52Sean Fennessey?

  Classic.

• 1:36:55Speaker 05

  Okay, look.

• 1:36:56Amanda Dobbins?

  Are you always giving stars?

• 1:36:57Speaker 05

  No, I only do hearts or no hearts.

• 1:36:59Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah, that's what I thought. Well, you just threw out a star rating there, so.

• 1:37:02Speaker 05

  I know, that's like the general like review of people are giving it on Letterboxd.

• 1:37:06Amanda Dobbins?

  Okay.

• 1:37:06Speaker 05

  Look, I think Inception is better than Memento. It's fine if you don't. Do you think his Inception is better than The Prestige? Because The Prestige is a cult of Nolan fandom that I appreciate from afar, but do not subscribe to.

• 1:37:20Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah, I appreciate it until those people try to say that it's better than Inception. It's like, Prestige is very good. It also just has a lot of your stuff, you know, it has Hugh Jackman and Magic. So those are just two things that really speak to you.

• 1:37:34Sean Fennessey?

  ScarJo.

• 1:37:34Amanda Dobbins?

  Right. You know, again, we're getting to some black licorice issues for me. Prestige is really good, but don't be the guy that's like Nolan eh, but you know what's really good? The Prestige. I've heard and I'm okay.

• 1:37:46Speaker 05

  Any Nolan list?

• 1:37:47Sean Fennessey?

  Bowie as Nikola Tesla? I mean, come on.

• 1:37:51Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 1:37:52Sean Fennessey?

  It's in the, it's, that's in the film. It's in the text.

• 1:37:56Speaker 05

  Heinz Ward, who's in Dark Knight Rises. I mean, we could just go through.

• 1:38:00Sean Fennessey?

  Heinz Ward is a piece of shit. Fuck him.

• 1:38:02Speaker 05

  Oh, that's very AMC beef.

• 1:38:03Sean Fennessey?

  Yeah. God damn it. Stole what could have been a beautiful.

• 1:38:07Speaker 05

  Is that what they call those?

• 1:38:09Sean Fennessey?

  Yeah, it is.

• 1:38:09Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 1:38:10Sean Fennessey?

  Yeah.

• 1:38:10Speaker 05

  Got to bring those back.

• 1:38:12Sean Fennessey?

  You think that'd be good for the NFL? Start severely injuring men on, on the field? Uh, I think the pro forma move here would be to do some combination of that, to do Memento nine, The Prestige at eight, and then run through the, figure out the classics from there.

• 1:38:26Speaker 05

  I love that.

• 1:38:27Sean Fennessey?

  Now, that's not what I want, but I will do it for the sake of getting through this podcast.

• 1:38:32Amanda Dobbins?

  I'm okay with it.

• 1:38:33Speaker 05

  I think that this is a filmmaker that for, because he's so popular and because he has been popular for a very long time, and because he has raised now two generations of filmmaker, film goers, you're just gonna get a lot of variance in what people value. Like, the Batman trilogy is amazing. Dark Knight trilogy is incredible. It's not a huge, it's not a grower for me. Like, I, I think, like, I like it and I admire it, but it's not gonna like pierce the, I'm not gonna have Dark Knight in my top four. People might, you know?

• 1:39:04Sean Fennessey?

  I do. I think I do.

• 1:39:06Amanda Dobbins?

  I think I do.

• 1:39:06Sean Fennessey?

  It's interesting that he keeps stacking movies that I'm putting over The Dark Knight now as time goes on, which is really exciting. I think The Dark Knight, it's not quite an innovation, but it's a, what I like about it is that it's him taking great tools from older movies and applying it to a new, like a kind of movie that is very popular at the time and, and making those pieces fit together.

• 1:39:25Speaker 05

  Can I make a very strange suggestion, suggestion?

• 1:39:27Sean Fennessey?

  Yes.

• 1:39:28Speaker 05

  Is that while we're doing this list from the bottom up, should we now reverse and go from the top down? Is it, is it better for us to now, from the second half of the list, should actually be like, let's, let's have the number one conversation?

• 1:39:42Sean Fennessey?

  I'm, I'm.

• 1:39:43Speaker 05

  Should we do our own temple?

• 1:39:44Sean Fennessey?

  I'm giving you guys a lot of room to move to me because to me, I think Oppenheimer and The Odyssey are his best movies. I think they're his best films. So, you know, I'm not sure, I, most people, I don't think feel that way. And sure, there, maybe there's some recency bias, but I've talked a little bit about the things that he's doing now that I am connecting to more.

• 1:40:03Speaker 05

  May I ask you a follow up?

• 1:40:05Sean Fennessey?

  I would love it if you did.

• 1:40:06Speaker 05

  Is Dunkirk in the top three?

• 1:40:08Sean Fennessey?

  No.

• 1:40:08Amanda Dobbins?

  Okay, I'm with him on Dunkirk.

• 1:40:10Speaker 05

  Dunkirk's number one for me.

• 1:40:13Amanda Dobbins?

  Dunkirk is top three for me. And I think we all, you know, know how I feel about the third hour of Oppenheimer and Interstellar. So we're gonna have to start making some real.

• 1:40:26Amanda Dobbins?

  Some, some group choices.

• 1:40:28Sean Fennessey?

  Interstellar, I think is very good. Um, it's, but it's never been a personal favorite of mine. There's, there's some of the sickest craft you'll ever see in a movie in Interstellar, but um, I find the plot to be very sentimental.

• 1:40:39Speaker 05

  I.

• 1:40:39Amanda Dobbins?

  And it goes on and on and on.

• 1:40:42Speaker 05

  Beautiful, beautiful passage of Interstellar. If you put it at seven, I think it's okay.

• 1:40:45Amanda Dobbins?

  But I also, the, the McConaughey of it, when I was, because I, I rewatched it again to try to give it a fair shot. And I know it means a lot to a lot of people, especially people younger than us, you know, who kind of, who saw it at the right moment in that career. McConaughey is doing too much for me. Uh, and it like tips it over too far into the sentimentality that you were referencing.

• 1:41:06Sean Fennessey?

  Yeah.

• 1:41:07Amanda Dobbins?

  And.

• 1:41:08Sean Fennessey?

  That's the movie to me that is more though, about my life spent making movies without my family. And then as the, as we go on and those themes recur, it's more like, well, my family can come with me now to any movie I make.

• 1:41:18Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah.

• 1:41:18Sean Fennessey?

  Cause I'm Chris Nolan.

• 1:41:19Amanda Dobbins?

  Right.

• 1:41:20Sean Fennessey?

  But that's almost like him remembering making The Dark Knight or The Prestige or something.

• 1:41:24Amanda Dobbins?

  Uh huh.

• 1:41:24Sean Fennessey?

  Um, and being away from a newborn. Uh.

• 1:41:28Speaker 05

  You want to put Interstellar at seven?

• 1:41:29Sean Fennessey?

  It's so hard, cause like you guys are gonna have to give me more if we're putting stuff, you know, like Memento and Interstellar to me are, are better than Inception. You know, they're, they're.

• 1:41:40Speaker 05

  So let's do, uh, which one do you like more Memento or Interstellar?

• 1:41:47Sean Fennessey?

  I like Memento, but I don't think that's, that's not the common feeling.

• 1:41:50Speaker 05

  Interstellar, Inception, Memento. Is, is that too high for Memento for you? Cause that would put Memento at five.

• 1:41:57Sean Fennessey?

  Yeah, that's gonna be too high for her.

• 1:41:58Amanda Dobbins?

  No, I like Memento. I, it's the best of the, the Jonathan.

• 1:42:02Sean Fennessey?

  To me, Memento is like a 1940's Warner Brothers movie in reverse. Like it's a really, really sharp crime movie.

• 1:42:07Amanda Dobbins?

  I'm, I'm pro Memento. Memento is, you know, the subhead of The Prestige of people being like, yeah, yeah, remember before Nolan, you know, sold out and he made Memento? I get it.

• 1:42:16Speaker 05

  This is my version of coming to meet you halfway. You know what I mean?

• 1:42:19Sean Fennessey?

  Okay. Well, okay, we'll, we'll follow along with your move. So you, number one for you would be Dunkirk. You, when you say top three, like literally, what would it be? If you were making your own individual list? Cause I'll roll with you guys on this, if, if it's that high for you.

• 1:42:32Amanda Dobbins?

  I think, I don't know whether I have Dark Knight or Odyssey at number one, but I would go with number one because, and I, and then.

• 1:42:43Amanda Dobbins?

  Let's see. So I, I mean, my top four is Odyssey, Dunkirk, Tenet and Dark Knight. And I know that Oppenheimer has to be in the top four because blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. So, um, that's, that's fine.

• 1:42:56Sean Fennessey?

  Would you put Odyssey, uh, Oppenheimer in your top four? If you wouldn't, then we're gonna end up putting it at something like four or five, because then it's, then it'll be just me.

• 1:43:03Speaker 05

  I go Dunkirk, Inception.

• 1:43:05Amanda Dobbins?

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:43:06Speaker 05

  Odyssey.

• 1:43:11Speaker 05

  Tenet, Dark Knight, Oppenheimer, I think.

• 1:43:15Amanda Dobbins?

  I think I also have Inception. I would tie Inception and Oppenheimer.

• 1:43:22Amanda Dobbins?

  He's so mad.

• 1:43:23Sean Fennessey?

  I'm not mad, this is just a chaotic act.

• 1:43:25Amanda Dobbins?

  Okay.

• 1:43:25Speaker 05

  I mean, this is, this is a very hard.

• 1:43:27Amanda Dobbins?

  I don't even know where I am with myself. Right now, I know that I'm not helping. Um, I know I've brought the spirit of discussion and then I'm just discussing into, normally I have to be the decision maker, you know? Normally I have not.

• 1:43:39Sean Fennessey?

  In your life, you mean?

• 1:43:40Amanda Dobbins?

  In my life, yeah. And I have to be very clear.

• 1:43:42Speaker 05

  We are working on behalf of Dom Cobb, but then I think also Sean and I are working on behalf of, of men like Robert Downey Jr. who.

• 1:43:50Sean Fennessey?

  I think, I think my rankings right now are from the, from one to five are Oppenheimer one, Dark Knight two, Odyssey three.

• 1:44:00Speaker 05

  Dunkirk.

• 1:44:01Sean Fennessey?

  Memento four and Tenet five.

• 1:44:03Speaker 05

  Dunkirk is six.

• 1:44:04Sean Fennessey?

  And Dunkirk is six. Because Dunkirk, I, I just always thought that the structure was a little too cute for its own sake, because it doesn't really match chronologically.

• 1:44:13Amanda Dobbins?

  You think it's cute that all those men were stranded on the shore?

• 1:44:16Sean Fennessey?

  I didn't say the, the events on the beaches of Dunkirk were cute.

• 1:44:19Amanda Dobbins?

  You think it's cute when they were just practicing for the Trojan horse?

• 1:44:22Speaker 05

  When Barry Keegan gets kicked down the stairs?

• 1:44:24Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah.

• 1:44:25Sean Fennessey?

  No, I didn't say that.

• 1:44:25Amanda Dobbins?

  And they're like, Peter.

• 1:44:29Sean Fennessey?

  Uh.

• 1:44:32Sean Fennessey?

  You guys, you guys hash it out. You guys figure it out. Where do you want to go?

• 1:44:35Amanda Dobbins?

  So you're, Dunkirk's your number one and yours is number six? And I'm in the, well, we're, we're nowhere.

• 1:44:39Speaker 05

  So I guess if we act, then we meet where Amanda is.

• 1:44:42Amanda Dobbins?

  This is like the third hour of Oppenheimer.

• 1:44:44Speaker 05

  No, no, no.

• 1:44:44Amanda Dobbins?

  They're all sitting around the table being like, you can't have the bomb.

• 1:44:48Sean Fennessey?

  Like I can give you Dunkirk at two, but I can't give it at one.

• 1:44:50Speaker 05

  Number one is the Odyssey or Oppenheimer? And your number one is the Odyssey?

• 1:44:53Sean Fennessey?

  And the Odyssey could be number one in six months.

• 1:44:55Amanda Dobbins?

  Or I could do Dark Knight. Or I could do.

• 1:44:58Speaker 05

  Dark Knight is not his best movie.

• 1:44:59Amanda Dobbins?

  Okay, all right, okay, that's fine. The first hour and a half is. And also, so here's the thing, the first an hour and a half of Dark Knight, electric. First two hours of Oppenheimer, transcendent. Trinity test? Check. Like absolutely. And then it keeps going. And then all the men are around rooms and they're just like, you know, having flashbacks to two seconds ago, being like, does the treaty say this?

• 1:45:20Sean Fennessey?

  Watch the last 10 minutes of Oppenheimer this morning.

• 1:45:22Amanda Dobbins?

  Sure, yeah. It's up on his face and he's like, what did I do?

• 1:45:25Sean Fennessey?

  Yeah.

• 1:45:25Amanda Dobbins?

  My genius.

• 1:45:26Sean Fennessey?

  When Alden Arrows is like, boom, gotcha to Downey.

• 1:45:28Amanda Dobbins?

  And then some senator named John F. Kennedy.

• 1:45:31Sean Fennessey?

  Not that part, no, no, no. And he's explaining to Downey that of course he, those two men were not having a conversation about him, they were having a conversation about more important things. And then we cut to the Tom, Conti, Killian Murphy scene, which is an amazing way to end a movie. And my, my big hangups on a bunch of these movies is like, these endings don't work. The endings of the last two movies worked so well to me.

• 1:45:48Amanda Dobbins?

  I remember when, remember when Rami Malek had a clipboard?

• 1:45:51Speaker 05

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:45:53Sean Fennessey?

  Yeah. He was, he was working on, on that project with, with the other scientists in Chicago.

• 1:45:58Amanda Dobbins?

  And then he was there in the room being like, it was you, Mr. President, or whatever. I don't know what was happening.

• 1:46:03Speaker 05

  Do you know what's a sick scene in Oppenheimer? Is when Casey Affleck is like.

• 1:46:07Amanda Dobbins?

  That's so good. It's so good.

• 1:46:09Sean Fennessey?

  Yeah. He's like, his, what'd he say? Killed Russians with his bare hands. Yeah. And it's good shit.

• 1:46:14Amanda Dobbins?

  There's a lot of really good stuff in Oppenheimer.

• 1:46:15Speaker 06

  Should we move Prestige down to nine and Memento back up since we've been speaking so glowingly of it lately? Cause right now Memento's at nine, Prestige's.

• 1:46:23Sean Fennessey?

  I would just, maybe just flip Memento to eight and Prestige to nine.

• 1:46:25Speaker 05

  Okay.

• 1:46:26Speaker 06

  Okay.

• 1:46:26Sean Fennessey?

  Just, just as a, a salve for me.

• 1:46:29Speaker 05

  Then I will give you Inception at six. It's, I know apparently it is more and more of a like.

• 1:46:34Sean Fennessey?

  You're saying it's number two for you?

• 1:46:35Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 1:46:36Sean Fennessey?

  And it's top five for you? So then that's not fair.

• 1:46:38Amanda Dobbins?

  Well, hold on, what are my, let me, I'm just gonna make a separate note with my top five. This is going really well.

• 1:46:43Sean Fennessey?

  For the sake, for the sake of, of.

• 1:46:46Amanda Dobbins?

  Dark.

• 1:46:46Sean Fennessey?

  A unified theory of Christopher Nolan, let's make Inception five.

• 1:46:51Speaker 05

  Okay.

• 1:46:51Sean Fennessey?

  Because most people will want to see it in that space and you guys both really like it.

• 1:46:55Amanda Dobbins?

  I'm okay, I'm okay with it at five.

• 1:46:56Speaker 05

  Are you gonna put Interstellar?

• 1:46:57Sean Fennessey?

  I would put Interstellar at seven if I had to.

• 1:46:59Speaker 05

  Okay.

• 1:46:59Sean Fennessey?

  That would be my choice.

• 1:47:02Speaker 05

  I don't think we could put your number one movie at six, though. That's not fair.

• 1:47:06Amanda Dobbins?

  What's your number one? Oh, Oppenheimer? Oh yeah, because we have all these other, hmm.

• 1:47:11Speaker 05

  So I think.

• 1:47:12Amanda Dobbins?

  Tenet?

• 1:47:13Sean Fennessey?

  I think Tenet goes at six.

• 1:47:14Speaker 05

  That's, and you know what? People, like, I think if we had Tenet in the top three, people would be like.

• 1:47:18Amanda Dobbins?

  People would be mad.

• 1:47:19Speaker 05

  And not that I care.

• 1:47:20Sean Fennessey?

  It's not about that, it's about.

• 1:47:21Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 1:47:22Sean Fennessey?

  What is just?

• 1:47:23Amanda Dobbins?

  Tenet is six, Inception is five, I think this is right.

• 1:47:25Sean Fennessey?

  And then this means that Oppenheimer is probably going to four here. Based on your takes.

• 1:47:32Speaker 05

  I think Dunkirk's better than Oppenheimer.

• 1:47:35Amanda Dobbins?

  I do too. So what's left here? So then.

• 1:47:37Speaker 05

  And then it's Odyssey and Dark Knight.

• 1:47:38Sean Fennessey?

  I don't feel that at all. It's crazy.

• 1:47:39Amanda Dobbins?

  Well, we're missing a, what are we missing?

• 1:47:42Sean Fennessey?

  We got, we're like 98 out of 100 on stuff.

• 1:47:44Speaker 06

  Odyssey, Dunkirk and the Dark Knight.

• 1:47:45Amanda Dobbins?

  Okay.

• 1:47:45Sean Fennessey?

  It's actually quite fascinating to me when we depart in, in that kind of way. We depart that kind of way all the time. It's not, there's nothing shocking about that.

• 1:47:54Speaker 05

  Dunkirk is because everything with Dunkirk is what he is showing you rather than what he is telling you. And I think in Oppenheimer, it's a lot more of the reverse, even though obviously incredible spectacle, but like, it's a lot more of like, and we had no idea what power we had unleashed. And like in Dunkirk, it's like.

• 1:48:10Sean Fennessey?

  You think that's not important?

• 1:48:10Speaker 05

  It's survival.

• 1:48:11Sean Fennessey?

  To not speak that into the truth of the world?

• 1:48:13Speaker 05

  No, but I think Dunkirk is like, like.

• 1:48:15Amanda Dobbins?

  I really liked it when he said it in The Odyssey, you know?

• 1:48:18Sean Fennessey?

  Yeah.

• 1:48:18Speaker 05

  A third of Dunkirk is silent, you know, or there's no dialogue, you know?

• 1:48:22Sean Fennessey?

  Yeah. Okay. Uh, so you want Dunkirk at what?

• 1:48:29Amanda Dobbins?

  Three?

• 1:48:30Sean Fennessey?

  But then that means Dark Knight's going to two. And Odyssey's going to one, which is recency bias. This is a, this is a mess.

• 1:48:36Amanda Dobbins?

  Well, fine, then, then change something.

• 1:48:37Sean Fennessey?

  This is a mess.

• 1:48:38Speaker 05

  This is Deacon's all over again.

• 1:48:40Amanda Dobbins?

  Do you want to put Dark Knight at four? Dunkirk at three, Oppenheimer, I mean, nobody wants Oppenheimer at one, but you.

• 1:48:48Sean Fennessey?

  I, I'm not, and I'm not pushing for it. And I'm fine with Oppenheimer at four.

• 1:48:53Speaker 05

  I don't think.

• 1:48:56Amanda Dobbins?

  I mean, I agree that it's too soon. It's too soon for The Odyssey to be number one, even though I do think that it is my number one.

• 1:49:02Sean Fennessey?

  And he said Dark Knight, no chance. So he's only allowing Dunkirk to go to number one. That's the argument that he is making. Now, you are of course, a guest of this show and a, a crucial member of this team and community. So I respect your point of view, but you have to show a little bit more flexibility.

• 1:49:20Speaker 05

  I'm being flexible.

• 1:49:21Sean Fennessey?

  You have to tell us, what's another film that could be number one that isn't Dunkirk?

• 1:49:27Sean Fennessey?

  And you're saying there isn't one?

• 1:49:29Speaker 05

  No, I didn't say that. I said Dunkirk is my favorite Christopher Nolan movie. I didn't say it has to be at number one for the big pictures.

• 1:49:36Sean Fennessey?

  What should be a number one that isn't Dunkirk?

• 1:49:37Speaker 05

  I think that The Odyssey being number one is a little bit cringe.

• 1:49:40Sean Fennessey?

  I agree.

• 1:49:41Amanda Dobbins?

  We all agree with that.

• 1:49:42Sean Fennessey?

  I agree.

• 1:49:42Amanda Dobbins?

  We all agree. So, but we do have to find other solutions, you know? We gotta find a problem.

• 1:49:48Sean Fennessey?

  Do you live your life worrying about appearing to be cringe?

• 1:49:51Speaker 05

  No.

• 1:49:52Sean Fennessey?

  You don't, you don't. I agree.

• 1:49:53Speaker 05

  I just mean like, I meant more like.

• 1:49:55Sean Fennessey?

  Do you?

• 1:49:56Speaker 05

  Let's be bigger than that.

• 1:49:57Amanda Dobbins?

  No, I'm never cringe, but I do witness it everywhere that I go.

• 1:50:03Amanda Dobbins?

  I worry about other people being cringe all the time.

• 1:50:06Sean Fennessey?

  I just got the name of my novel about you on the board, which is called I'm Never Cringe, a satirical novel.

• 1:50:13Amanda Dobbins?

  Because cringe is all about self-confidence, you know? And, and I've got it. And, but like other people, all those moms at the pool on Friday, that was the definition of cringe. That's what they were.

• 1:50:22Speaker 05

  Like Jimothy, I don't think they made it to the podcast.

• 1:50:25Amanda Dobbins?

  Well, I know, but now I found the word that I was looking for. They weren't mean. They were just really cringe in their own ways.

• 1:50:33Speaker 05

  All right.

• 1:50:33Sean Fennessey?

  So much.

• 1:50:34Amanda Dobbins?

  And they were not confident.

• 1:50:35Sean Fennessey?

  Amanda recently pulling lore from off mic into hour three of Pod on mic.

• 1:50:40Amanda Dobbins?

  Because it's hour three and much like a Christopher Nolan film, I don't remember where I am.

• 1:50:43Sean Fennessey?

  Okay. Uh, well, there's just no good solution.

• 1:50:47Amanda Dobbins?

  Okay. So we're not doing Odyssey at number one because we all agree.

• 1:50:50Speaker 05

  What about The Dark Knight?

• 1:50:50Amanda Dobbins?

  No. Chris is not doing that.

• 1:50:53Sean Fennessey?

  Chris says no.

• 1:50:53Amanda Dobbins?

  I mean, I mean, this is how we wound up with Oppenheimer on 25 for 25, which I still feel frustrated about because there are many other movies made in this century that are better than Oppenheimer. It's very, very good.

• 1:51:07Speaker 05

  Well, maybe now I'm coming around to the idea that the Odyssey should be number one, just to stiff arm Dark Knight out and to make sure that like the Odyssey is perhaps his greatest cinematic achievement. Dark Knight's his biggest commercial success to date. How about that?

• 1:51:21Amanda Dobbins?

  Tenet, number one? Zag?

• 1:51:25Sean Fennessey?

  Even I can't make that case.

• 1:51:26Amanda Dobbins?

  Okay. Yeah. We tried in Toronto. Everyone was like, play golf club.

• 1:51:30Sean Fennessey?

  Yeah, exactly. They're like, you sure guys? We wish you brought Inception. Um, ah, I don't know what to say.

• 1:51:38Speaker 05

  What do you think of this list?

• 1:51:39Amanda Dobbins?

  What can we move up? What else can we move up?

• 1:51:41Sean Fennessey?

  The inevitable solution to this is that you guys will get to have Dunkirk at number one and then everything else slides down a spot. And then that's what's, that gets to be the way that this gets solved.

• 1:51:50Speaker 05

  Dunkirk would be your personal six.

• 1:51:52Sean Fennessey?

  It would.

• 1:51:53Speaker 05

  And it would be your three?

• 1:51:54Sean Fennessey?

  That's by no means bad.

• 1:51:57Amanda Dobbins?

  It would be my three or my two.

• 1:52:00Amanda Dobbins?

  It's very good.

• 1:52:02Sean Fennessey?

  Consider this my early 50th birthday present to you.

• 1:52:07Sean Fennessey?

  16 months in advance.

• 1:52:09Amanda Dobbins?

  I would do Dunkirk one, Oppenheimer two.

• 1:52:13Speaker 05

  Ooh. I like that.

• 1:52:16Amanda Dobbins?

  I'm okay with Oppenheimer at two.

• 1:52:19Sean Fennessey?

  Well, now, now, now, now you're, now you're helping me out.

• 1:52:22Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah.

• 1:52:23Sean Fennessey?

  And that's, that's what I appreciate.

• 1:52:24Speaker 05

  Cause we get away, but also Sean, yeah, I think that's great.

• 1:52:27Amanda Dobbins?

  It's called confidence.

• 1:52:27Sean Fennessey?

  And is Dark Knight going to three? And Odyssey to four?

• 1:52:31Amanda Dobbins?

  And then Odyssey at four?

• 1:52:32Sean Fennessey?

  Or is Odyssey going to three and Dark Knight to four?

• 1:52:34Speaker 05

  I think Odyssey three, Dark Knight four, personally.

• 1:52:36Amanda Dobbins?

  I think I probably.

• 1:52:38Sean Fennessey?

  That gets closer to how I feel about his career.

• 1:52:41Amanda Dobbins?

  Okay.

• 1:52:41Sean Fennessey?

  I think that's it. I don't, I gotta re-watch Dunkirk.

• 1:52:45Amanda Dobbins?

  Dunkirk one.

• 1:52:48Amanda Dobbins?

  Oppenheimer two. Odyssey three. Dark Knight four. Inception five. Tenet six. Interstellar seven.

• 1:52:57Sean Fennessey?

  The Interstellar boys are gonna cry.

• 1:52:58Amanda Dobbins?

  That, listen, they've been, they shouldn't listen to this podcast anymore. If you expect us to ever let Interstellar fully into our hearts, that's cool.

• 1:53:07Sean Fennessey?

  I think it's pretty, I think it's good. I'm not saying it's bad.

• 1:53:10Speaker 05

  I'm happy for everyone. It's not cringe to cry.

• 1:53:12Amanda Dobbins?

  And there are.

• 1:53:15Amanda Dobbins?

  Does it make you cry?

• 1:53:18Amanda Dobbins?

  I feel nothing when I watch Interstellar. I mean, I'm like, ooh, you know, space. I'm into it.

• 1:53:22Sean Fennessey?

  Is it elevated at all? Cause it's early Timothy Chalamet.

• 1:53:26Amanda Dobbins?

  No, I mean, I'm happy for him, but I kind of forget that he's in it.

• 1:53:29Sean Fennessey?

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:53:30Speaker 05

  Is that a Hans movie or is that a literal?

• 1:53:31Amanda Dobbins?

  It's a Hans movie.

• 1:53:32Speaker 05

  Yeah, Hans blacks out with that black, when they, when they go into the black hole.

• 1:53:36Sean Fennessey?

  Do you think you could be friends with a theoretical physicist?

• 1:53:41Speaker 05

  Sure. I can be friends with almost anybody.

• 1:53:43Sean Fennessey?

  I've noticed that about you.

• 1:53:44Amanda Dobbins?

  That is nice.

• 1:53:45Sean Fennessey?

  One of your superpowers.

• 1:53:46Amanda Dobbins?

  Could you?

• 1:53:48Sean Fennessey?

  Sure. I'm, I'm a curious person.

• 1:53:50Amanda Dobbins?

  Okay.

• 1:53:50Sean Fennessey?

  I'm assuming he's a good hang or she's a good hang.

• 1:53:52Amanda Dobbins?

  Absolutely not. I don't, I don't have a lot of pay. Physics is just where I check out. I appreciate all the work that they've done in making our planes fly and, you know, other stuff.

• 1:54:03Sean Fennessey?

  Okay. Other stuff? Such as?

• 1:54:06Amanda Dobbins?

  I was not, I, I, my mind doesn't work that way. So.

• 1:54:10Sean Fennessey?

  Shall I read this?

• 1:54:11Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah.

• 1:54:11Sean Fennessey?

  Lineup? I don't know if this is amazing or terrible.

• 1:54:15Amanda Dobbins?

  Well, it doesn't have to be. It's not locked yet.

• 1:54:19Speaker 05

  I think it is.

• 1:54:20Amanda Dobbins?

  Okay.

• 1:54:20Speaker 05

  And I think it's good.

• 1:54:23Sean Fennessey?

  You guys gotta give me one next time. That's how I feel about this.

• 1:54:26Amanda Dobbins?

  We gave you one.

• 1:54:27Sean Fennessey?

  No, you got Dunkirk at number one. So you gotta give me one next time.

• 1:54:30Speaker 05

  What's, what's next time when we do the PTA ranking? We have to let you say what?

• 1:54:34Sean Fennessey?

  Well, last time we did that, I told Amanda, stand down. I got this.

• 1:54:36Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah, it's true. I was like, I was just there to haze him when he put Boogie Nights at number three. And I was like, you're not being true to yourself.

• 1:54:43Speaker 05

  That's right.

• 1:54:44Amanda Dobbins?

  You know, you're betraying your own principles.

• 1:54:47Sean Fennessey?

  You know what might be number one now is Magnolia.

• 1:54:48Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah. You've entered that phase of your life. It's really, it's really good.

• 1:54:52Sean Fennessey?

  I've re-watched it twice in the last two years. It's so fucking good.

• 1:54:55Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah.

• 1:54:55Sean Fennessey?

  And so free.

• 1:54:56Amanda Dobbins?

  I agree.

• 1:54:57Sean Fennessey?

  And insane. God. All right. Anyway. Um, number 13, following. Number 12, insomnia. Number 11, Batman Begins. Number 10, The Dark Knight Rises. Number nine, The Prestige. Number eight, Memento. Number seven, Interstellar. Number six, Tenet. Number five, Inception. Number four, The Dark Knight. Number three, The Odyssey. Number two, Oppenheimer. And number one, Dunkirk. This is kind of like, everybody gets what they want, but nobody gets what they want situation.

• 1:55:22Speaker 05

  That's what compromises.

• 1:55:23Sean Fennessey?

  It sure is. If only the United Nations knew who had a cook like we do, we'd be in a much better place. We wouldn't have to make the Odyssey.

• 1:55:30Speaker 05

  Put, put us in charge.

• 1:55:31Amanda Dobbins?

  That's true.

• 1:55:32Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 1:55:32Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah. We are the civilization that rose again.

• 1:55:34Sean Fennessey?

  If, if there were to be something we could literally be in charge of.

• 1:55:39Amanda Dobbins?

  The Oscars.

• 1:55:39Speaker 05

  On a national, global level?

• 1:55:40Sean Fennessey?

  He doesn't care.

• 1:55:41Speaker 05

  I care, I care.

• 1:55:42Sean Fennessey?

  The three of us.

• 1:55:42Amanda Dobbins?

  But that's where the best ideas come from, you know?

• 1:55:45Sean Fennessey?

  Someone who's totally checked out on something?

• 1:55:46Amanda Dobbins?

  No, no, no. He just, he brings, you know, the, the magic sprinkle. We'll make sure all of the important stuff happens. And then Chris is like, okay. And then what if Jimothy runs through?

• 1:56:00Sean Fennessey?

  Okay. Thanks to our producer, Jack Sanders, for his work on today's episode. Thanks to Lucas Cavanagh for his production support. Thank you to Chris Ryan.

• 1:56:07Speaker 05

  My pleasure.

• 1:56:07Sean Fennessey?

  For playing along with another silly game.

• 1:56:09Speaker 05

  I thought this was great.

• 1:56:10Amanda Dobbins?

  I'm so glad. It's nice, it's nice to be back with you.

• 1:56:13Speaker 05

  It was a good discussion.

• 1:56:14Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah.

• 1:56:14Speaker 05

  Was it good?

• 1:56:15Sean Fennessey?

  Well, I just think these movies bring out the absolute best of this show. I just think when something is serious and big, but a lot of fun and everyone is watching it, it is my favorite time to be making this podcast. So I appreciate you guys doing the same and everybody listening along. Later this week, we are doing a mailbag. Big pick mailbag at gmail.com and, and.

• 1:56:34Speaker 05

  Send your emails in the form of a question.

• 1:56:36Sean Fennessey?

  Yes. Send, send questions.

• 1:56:38Amanda Dobbins?

  That's it.

• 1:56:39Sean Fennessey?

  Yeah. But just think of it this way. Jack has to work on this. He has to sift through emails. He is taking out time from his day to bring the best questions to us.

• 1:56:47Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah.

• 1:56:47Sean Fennessey?

  If you waste his time with long disquisitions on CR's hat choices, then you're wasting our time. Don't waste it. We'll see you later this week.

• 1:57:15Speaker 00

  From the studio that brought you WandaVision. I was an Avenger, but I'm not a hero anymore.

• 1:57:23Speaker 00

  The Vision returns for the final chapter of the groundbreaking trilogy. That family wasn't real. You sure about that? I had a father called Vision. How is this possible?

• 1:57:34Speaker 00

  Don't miss the two-episode premiere of Marvel Television's Vision Quest. Nothing bonds a family together quite like Mortal Jeopardy. Now streaming, only on Disney+.

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