SCOTUS Unanimously Upholds TikTok Ban

In the first emergency episode of 2025, Kate, Leah and Melissa break down the Court’s unanimous decision to uphold the upcoming TikTok ban in the United States. They cover the implications and possible unintended consequences, and Leah bids farewell to her personal Chinese spy. Get tickets for STRICT SCRUTINY LIVE – The Bad Decisions Tour 2025! 3/6/26 – San Francisco 3/7/26 – Los Angeles Learn more: http://crooked.com/events Order your copy of Leah's book, Lawless: How the Supreme Court Runs on Conservative Grievance, Fringe Theories, and Bad Vibes https://www.simonandschuster.com/books/Lawless/Leah-Litman/9781668054628 Follow us on Instagram https://www.instagram.com/strictscrutinypodcast/?hl=en, Threads https://www.threads.net/@strictscrutinypodcast, and Bluesky https://bsky.app/profile/strictscrutiny.bsky.social

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Leah Litman?

  This show is sponsored by BetterHelp. What do you want your 2025 story to be? Every January brings you 365 blank pages waiting to be filled. And we know at least some of them are going to be in the horror genre this time around. But you still have to write your own narrative within that. So in 2025, maybe you're ready for a plot twist, or maybe there's a part of your story you've been wanting to revise. You can think of therapy as your editorial partner, helping you write new chapters and create the story you deserve to live. I've personally benefited from therapy. In fact, one of my favorite people's favorite pieces of advice is that every lawyer needs at least one therapist. There's therapy for the small stuff, everyday stuff, just to cope with all of the BS. I'm not going to name names here.

• 0:44Leah Litman?

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• 1:24Speaker 01

  Mr. Chief Justice, may it please be poured. It's an old joke, but when a hargained man argues against two beautiful ladies like this, they're going to have the last word.

• 1:36Speaker 02

  She spoke not elegantly, but with unmistakable clarity. She said, "I ask no favor for my sex. All I ask of our brethren is that they take their feet off our necks."

• 2:06Melissa Murray?

  Hello and welcome back to Strict Scrutiny, your podcast about the Supreme Court and the legal culture that surrounds it. We're your hosts. I'm Melissa Murray.

• 2:15Leah Litman?

  I'm Leah Litman.

• 2:16Kate Shaw?

  And I'm Kate Shaw. It is only the third week of 2025, and we are somehow already issuing emergency episodes. For reference, that didn't happen until February of 2024, so that may give you some indication of what we are likely in for.

• 2:30Melissa Murray?

  The occasion for this one is the Supreme Court's decision in the TikTok case, TikTok versus Garland, though I think we're going to shorten it to TikTok Block. I don't know, a little rhyming.

• 2:39Kate Shaw?

  TikTok divestiture block, I think, is more accurate, but that doesn't have the same ring to it.

• 2:43Melissa Murray?

  That doesn't work.

• 2:44Kate Shaw?

  Okay, TikTok Block is good.

• 2:45Melissa Murray?

  That does not work.

• 2:46Kate Shaw?

  Just trying to be accurate. We are dispensing reliable news here.

• 2:50Melissa Murray?

  What is accuracy on the algorithm, Kate?

• 2:52Leah Litman?

  Exactly. Alternative facts. TikTok Block. A week after the oral argument in the case, the court released its per curiam opinion. Per curiam just means the opinion was unsigned. It doesn't identify the author. The opinion is also unanimous, joined by all of the justices, although justices Sotomayor and Gorsuch wrote separate, concurring opinions as well.

• 3:11Melissa Murray?

  And as expected, because all joy must die at one first street, the court denied TikTok and TikTok's users' requests for an emergency injunction against the law that will effectively ban TikTok in the United States. This means that the law will go into effect in two days, at which point it will be illegal for US applications and platforms like Apple or Android to host and service TikTok. So in other words, the app isn't just going to disappear from your phone if you already have it, but it is going to become relatively unusable in a relatively short period of time because those platforms where you get your apps and your updates won't be able to provide an update for TikTok, and TikTok issues updates for its app probably around

• 3:55Melissa Murray?

  twice a week. So it's going to be obsolete relatively soon.

• 3:59Kate Shaw?

  But just as Melissa was saying, to be clear, the law doesn't operate directly on users, so it does not become unlawful for you to continue to check TikTok in the interim. But also, as Melissa was just saying, unless-

• 4:09Melissa Murray?

  Unless I'm your mother, and then it does.

• 4:11Kate Shaw?

  And then it's definitely criminal to continue.

• 4:15Melissa Murray?

  It's definitely unlawful. Not telling my kids. Going to tell my kids it's a total ban.

• 4:18Kate Shaw?

  A total ban.

• 4:19Melissa Murray?

  They can't use it.

• 4:21Kate Shaw?

  But, OK, in terms of what this means on the ground, we're going to, in this short emergency episode, go through what happens or might happen next. So, again, more of the practical fallout and also, of course, the opinion and what it said.

• 4:31Leah Litman?

  And it will be sprinkled in with my anguished, forlorn messages about the demise of TikTok. Hopefully, they will reach my Chinese spy, my personal Chinese spy, who literally got me through my elbow accident and gave me the will to live. Like, I have to say, I knew this was coming, and yet, it still made me very sad. Like, I woke up this morning and watched and looked at extra TikTok. You know, I've previously, obviously, like, referred to it as like a dance app. It's so much more than that, as will become clear throughout the episode. Like, the love notes, the recent posts on TikTok from everyone to their Chinese spy, like, they're hilarious. They have just left me gagged. I, I love it. No apologies.

• 5:15Melissa Murray?

  I think I'm a little more sanguine about the demise of TikTok, mostly because, literally, my children would rather watch TikTok videos than read books, and that leaves me feeling some kind of way. But for the constitutional aspects in the court, yes, I'm with you, Leah. For everything else, I don't know. Like, I hope you all find

• 5:33Leah Litman?

  Maybe I'll convince you by the end.

• 5:35Melissa Murray?

  Maybe. Again, like, I'm in the middle somewhere. I'm not, not really sure how to feel. But let's talk about what might happen next for TikTok. So TikTok might come to an end in a slightly different way than what you might anticipate, given the court's opinion. So not just that it might become unusable or obsolete. According to some reports, the company plans to take the platform completely offline on Sunday, once the ban goes into effect. And because we live in the most chaotic of times, there's just a good deal of uncertainty about what might happen next. So let's tick through a couple of scenarios. TikTok.

• 6:13Leah Litman?

  Tick through. TikTok. TikTok on the clock.

• 6:16Kate Shaw?

  Here we go. So, one, just in terms of injecting real uncertainty into the discourse, NBC has reported that the Biden administration does not plan to levy billions of dollars in fines against companies that allow access to TikTok in the US, according to To administration officials, quote, "The administration has decided to defer implementation of the law banning TikTok in the U.S. to the incoming Trump administration." So I think what this means is even though by its terms, the law goes into effect on January 19th, while Joe Biden is still the president, they're just going to pretend it doesn't and just pass the hot potato to the Trump administration to do something about this mess, which I just want to say that all strikes me as great on the eve

• 6:58Kate Shaw?

  of Trump's inauguration for the outgoing administration to openly embrace the position that laws passed by Congress are optional. So, nice work, guys.

• 7:07Leah Litman?

  Love to see it. But in any case, it's not even like that promise, or even if Donald Trump made a similar promise not to enforce the law, that any of that would ensure TikTok's continued availability, because the law imposes $5,000 in fines per user with a statute of limitations of five years. So that would be billions of dollars in liability. And because the statute of limitations is five years, the next, next administration, whoever that is, could still seek to impose those fines even if the incoming Trump administration does not.

• 7:38Melissa Murray?

  Now, president-elect slash consummate dealmaker Donald Trump is also reportedly making noise about trying to keep TikTok available in the United States. There are reports that Trump is exploring ways to extend the deadline of the law. The act permits the president to grant a one-time extension of no more than 90 days with respect to the prohibition's effective date. If the president makes certain certifications to Congress that there is enough progress toward a qualified divestiture. And it's not entirely clear how Donald Trump would do this, or what all of that would entail. But perhaps anticipating that there is some kind of executive action forthcoming, Congress debated the possibility

• 8:21Melissa Murray?

  of an extension on Thursday. And let's just say that not everyone in the Republican coalition is in line with the president-elect with regard to their affinity for TikTok. Let's hear from Senator Tom Cotton.

• 8:35Speaker 05

  TikTok isn't just another social media platform. TikTok is a Chinese communist spy app that addicts our kids, harvests their data, targets them with harmful and manipulative content, and spreads communist propaganda.

• 8:50Speaker 05

  So let me be crystal clear. There will be no extensions, no concessions and no compromises for TikTok.

• 8:57Melissa Murray?

  Real question. Will TikTok be the straw that broke the camel's back of the conservative coalition? Please say yes.

• 9:05Leah Litman?

  Raw, next question. But you know, no matter the answer to that question, I want to ensure one Samuel Alito that it will be OK. People will still be able to read the stories that are available on Pornhub. And if you don't understand that reference, stay tuned for our next episode.

• 9:21Kate Shaw?

  So Trump is also reportedly considering making a determination that would allow TikTok to continue, not just temporarily, but you know, indefinitely in the United States. The law by its terms says that TikTok cannot operate unless there's a substantial divestment from ByteDance, the Chinese company. So if the president determines that there has been substantial steps toward that divestment, then the platforms would be able to host and service TikTok. The way the law works is that a qualified divestiture is supposed to be one that the president determines will result in the application no longer being controlled by a foreign adversary. And if Trump goes this route, he's likely to make this determination, but unclear whether that will actually rest on a real substantial divestment. But hey, the law is optional anyway.

• 10:05Leah Litman?

  And facts don't matter. We know that from the Supreme Court too, right? So it's all just kind of up for grabs. Another thing that is in the works is Donald Trump is, as his solicitor general nominee told the Supreme Court, attempting to negotiate some kind of deal. And since he is, also according to his solicitor general nominee, the consummate dealmaker, who knows what will come of that.

• 10:27Melissa Murray?

  I'm really hoping that one thing that comes from it is a new Mark Burnett show, The Apprentice, TikTok version, where contestants vie to run TikTok for Donald Trump.

• 10:39Kate Shaw?

  And we can meet the president that we're going to have in 20 years. And I really, you know.

• 10:43Leah Litman?

  That's how it's going to work.

• 10:45Kate Shaw?

  That's how we pick presidents these days.

• 10:46Leah Litman?

  I don't want to experience that show without TikTok, though, right? Because like, it makes those things all the more fun when you have all of these different people piling on and satirizing them. And yeah, anyways. So all of this is to say that in what may end up being one of the more remarkable self-owns, Democrats may have turned themselves into the party that attempted to kill TikTok, and Trump will be the one to have saved it. Truly genius move. Sam Alito is literally cackling to himself. And, you know, Donald Trump could get credit even though he was the first president to explore banning TikTok. You know, he tried to do it with an executive order that was blocked by courts.

• 11:27Kate Shaw?

  Okay, as is probably clear from this discussion, the point is that there is a lot that is in flux and the situation is quickly developing. We are recording this, you know, about an hour after the Supreme Court issued its order on Friday. So maybe let's turn to that now. What did the Supreme Court say in this order to get to this result? So it assumed that the law triggered some kind of First Amendment scrutiny, but it concluded that the law was content neutral, which meant the law wasn't subject to strict scrutiny, but rather intermediate scrutiny.

• 11:54Melissa Murray?

  The standard of review, i.e. whether strict scrutiny or intermediate scrutiny or the lowest level of review, rational basis review applies, is really important here because the standard of review dictates how closely the court will look at the law and whether the court will make extra sure that the government's stated purpose for the law is, in fact, its actual purpose, and whether the court will look closely to see whether the law's restrictions on speech advance those stated aims and do so in a way that is no more restrictive than necessary to advance those aims. So here, for example, the court rejected the petitioners' proposed alternatives that would have been less restrictive to TikTok, like, for example, having a disclosure requirement that disclosed that TikTok

• 12:38Melissa Murray?

  and ByteDance had some kind of ties to the Chinese government. The court rejected that argument on the view that there is latitude that the courts afford the government for designing regulatory solutions, and these are entirely pertinent when you're in that intermediate. Standard of review. So not as strict as strict scrutiny, not as deferential as rational basis, but even in that intermediate area, there's some latitude that the government is owed.

• 13:04Leah Litman?

  Some third thing where the government apparently just wins when it says national security.

• 13:09Melissa Murray?

  It feels a little bit like rational basis, but.

• 13:11Leah Litman?

  Right, exactly. So why did the court conclude that this law was content neutral? You know, a content based regulation is something that applies to particular speech because of the topic or message, whereas a content neutral law is one that still restricts speech, but not because of its content. So here, the government said it was restricting speech because a platform was effectively owned and controlled by a foreign adversary who was determined to be hostile to the United States.

• 13:36Kate Shaw?

  So the court focused in its discussion on the data protection slash data collection rationale and found that that was sufficient to uphold the law. And this is kind of how we predicted when we discussed the oral argument in the case. So the government had actually offered two justifications for the law. First, that the ban prevented China from collecting data that it might use for blackmail, corporate espionage, things like that. And then the second justification was that the ban prevented China from covertly manipulating what content users see. The first of these rationales, the data collection rationale, is much more removed from the content of what's available on TikTok, what the algorithm recommends, and therefore it is just further afield from the First Amendment so that it merits a less stringent standard of review.

• 14:18Melissa Murray?

  Although some might argue that the content manipulation rationale is in fact content based, but in this case, the court said it didn't have to consider whether that rationale would trigger strict scrutiny because, quote, "The record before us adequately supports the conclusion that Congress would have passed the challenge provisions based on the data collection justification alone," end quote. So nothing to see here, folks.

• 14:44Leah Litman?

  So that part of the opinion is a little concerning to me because it made me wonder, are they going to, in other cases, allow governments to basically hide or get away with content based justifications, motivations, by covering them up with and citing content neutral justifications as well?

• 15:01Kate Shaw?

  Well, in particular, ones that sounded national security rationales.

• 15:04Leah Litman?

  Right.

• 15:04Kate Shaw?

  Yeah, I think that's genuinely concerning.

• 15:06Melissa Murray?

  Yes, this is me staring in Arlington Heights. This is basically what the court does in situations where you have facially neutral laws that have discriminatory impact and the court's like, no big deal, because you didn't actually write into the letter of the law that you were going to be discriminating. And so here we go. Same thing.

• 15:24Leah Litman?

  So as to that content neutral data collection rationale, the court emphasized about how the reporting has suggested TikTok's data collection practices include gathering stuff like age, phone number, location, internet address, phone contacts, social network connections, and the content of private messages that are sent through the application, as well as the videos people watch. And it rejected the suggestion that the law was problematic because there was not yet evidence that China was using the data for blackmail or espionage, or because there wasn't yet evidence China manipulated the algorithm. The court wrote, quote, "Even if China has not yet leveraged its relationship with ByteDance to access US TikTok users' data, petitioners offer no basis for concluding that the government's determination that

• 16:07Leah Litman?

  China might do so is not at least a reasonable inference based on substantial evidence." End quote.

• 16:13Kate Shaw?

  So the court avoided grounding its ruling on the idea that the law operates only on ByteDance. And the court also didn't say that the law was fine because it merely regulated the owner of the platform. So the court seemed to recognize that law is favoring some speakers over others, sometimes do reflect a view about content, but that other times they don't. And the court did take pains repeatedly to emphasize the narrowness of its ruling. So here's one representative quote, "TikTok's scale and susceptibility to foreign adversary control, together with the vast swaths of sensitive data the platform collects, justify differential treatment to address the government's national security concerns." And in a few passages, it actually drove me insane. I don't know about you guys, but the court defensively was like, "This is all pretty tentative and sketchy because we

• 16:56Kate Shaw?

  had so little time to consider and decide the case. This is really one of these ticket-for-one-bride-only kinds of opinions. Don't take much First Amendment content from what we are saying."

• 17:05Leah Litman?

  Don't take anything we say seriously. It's not like law in the real sense.

• 17:10Kate Shaw?

  It's like, my guys, first of all, you did not have to take this case at all. This was a case the DC Circuit had already decided and had already upheld the law. So all the Supreme Court did was take the case. Right, a very rushed opinion saying, yeah, DC Circuit, you got it right. The DC Circuit also used intermediate scrutiny.

• 17:31Leah Litman?

  They didn't even differ.

• 17:32Kate Shaw?

  No, they did nothing very different, except for they casually dropped a lot of, you know, First Amendment doctrine that, again, they are trying to control the application of, but good luck with that. So awesome work.

• 17:42Melissa Murray?

  It's a he-peat. It's a he-peat and they are literally, we didn't have enough time. If this is really sloppy, it's because we were rushed. They rushed us. I mean, yeah.

• 17:51Leah Litman?

  Very masculine energy in this he-peat.

• 17:55Kate Shaw?

  In some ways, that's the most masculine energy.

• 17:59Melissa Murray?

  Well, we're going to get there, but Neil Gorsuch has some real conservative grievance energy in his concurrence, too. So.

• 18:06Leah Litman?

  Yeah, we'll get there.

• 18:07Melissa Murray?

  Tie a knot.

• 18:11Leah Litman?

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• 21:48Melissa Murray?

  All right. So this is just an opinion about the First Amendment. The court repeatedly says and what the government can do when it comes to speech by just invoking national security. And it does all of this on the eve of the second Trump administration. So despite the court's professed narrow decision, it does feel like this is really consequential and indeed maybe giving the Trump administration going forward some real ammunition in which to be fast and loose about First Amendment concerns in the context of national security. And again, the court seems to be saying like, national security might be a get out of jail free card. I know we keep saying that, but there are a lot of get out of jail free cards going around.

• 22:29Leah Litman?

  Yeah, they love to dish them out, either to Trump directly or on the eve of his administration. It's just like a really great time, guys, to be emphasizing the large amount of deference given to the federal government whenever it invokes national security in the context of a constitutional challenge. I can't imagine what could possibly go wrong here.

• 22:48Kate Shaw?

  Right. And to go back to what I just said, they didn't have to take it at all. They didn't have to take it and decide it. But maybe actually they did because they wanted to just write something as a little inauguration eve gift to Trump that says, you get a lot of leeway if you just say these magic words.

• 23:01Leah Litman?

  It's got real that guy in your law school section energy, right? The court always insists they need to be the ones to say something, even if doing so makes it worse.

• 23:11Melissa Murray?

  Well, it's actually, it's that guy energy two minutes before class is supposed to end.

• 23:16Leah Litman?

  Yes.

• 23:17Melissa Murray?

  Yeah. I mean, that's the guy and that's the energy. Yeah.

• 23:21Leah Litman?

  So I wanted to highlight one additional passage from the opinion, which is near the opening, where the court said, quote, "As Justice Frankfurter advised 80 years ago in considering the application of established legal rules to the, quote, 'totally new problems raised by the airplane and radio, we should take care not to, quote, 'embarrass the future,' end quote."

• 23:39Melissa Murray?

  Too late.

• 23:40Leah Litman?

  Right. You guys already do that enough in your other opinions and extracurriculars. So I guess you didn't want to do so here, but what?

• 23:48Kate Shaw?

  Don't they embarrass the present as well?

• 23:49Leah Litman?

  Yes.

• 23:50Kate Shaw?

  It's not just the future.

• 23:51Leah Litman?

  Past, present, future.

• 23:52Melissa Murray?

  See Dobbs.

• 23:53Leah Litman?

  Right. They do not discriminate.

• 23:55Melissa Murray?

  Content neutral.

• 23:58Leah Litman?

  History neutral, time neutral. Yes.

• 24:00Melissa Murray?

  All of it. Let's talk about the separate writings. So Justice Sotomayor wrote a very short concurrence in which she made clear that while she joined most of the court's opinion, she didn't join all of it. She would not have joined part 2A, I think it was, which is where the court talked about whether or not the First Amendment was implicated. She said, there really is no question here, based on our precedents, that the First Amendment is in fact implicated. The pro curiam opinion of the court assumed without deciding that the First Amendment was implicated. And she was like, yes, correct. Move on.

• 24:36Leah Litman?

  Justice Gorsuch spent four-ish pages, several of them bitching about how quickly the court had to act in the case, which prevented him from writing more of his usual drivel. He said, quote, "We have had a fortnight to resolve finally, and on the merits, a major First Amendment dispute affecting more than 170 million Americans. Given those conditions, I can sketch out only a few, and admittedly tentative, observations." End quote. If they're tentative, why bother sharing them? Work them out on the remix, my guy. Um, he, like-

• 25:08Kate Shaw?

  He can't help himself.

• 25:09Leah Litman?

  No, he can't.

• 25:10Melissa Murray?

  I love the use of fortnight, like, ahoy.

• 25:13Leah Litman?

  No, you stay, you keep Taylor Swift out of your fucking mouth, Neil. He also says he's not sure the law doesn't trigger strict scrutiny. What? And doesn't like deciding what level of scrutiny applies? Like, being forced to do actual law is kind of a drag on him?

• 25:30Kate Shaw?

  Okay, wait, can I actually just, like, weirdly come to the defense of Neil Gorsuch? Some of the energy in that separate concurrence was a little bit Justice Stevens. Like, sometimes these, like, tiers of scrutiny, we, like, pretend, create these sort of formal categories in the world. So, so that is the charitable reading, is he was at least, he was evincing some, I think.

• 25:45Leah Litman?

  Consider the source, Kate. Consider the source.

• 25:48Kate Shaw?

  I just read in isolation, there was, like, a kernel of insight.

• 25:52Leah Litman?

  No, it needs to be read in the context of these Trump-appointed judges being like, "Let's just do away with the tiers of scrutiny and do history and tradition instead." Right? That is what Neil Gorsuch, right, is gesturing.

• 26:02Kate Shaw?

  Not in the tradition of John Paul Stevens.

• 26:03Leah Litman?

  No.

• 26:03Kate Shaw?

  Okay.

• 26:04Melissa Murray?

  And to be fair, this is a four-page writing where I think the most important thing he wanted to get out was that we didn't have enough time. Like, this isn't my best work.

• 26:14Leah Litman?

  Right.

• 26:15Melissa Murray?

  Right?

• 26:15Leah Litman?

  I wanted to do, like, 40 pages.

• 26:17Melissa Murray?

  Yeah. Less on the tiers of scrutiny, more on like, this isn't Neil at his best. And I'm like, fair.

• 26:25Leah Litman?

  Right.

• 26:25Melissa Murray?

  It isn't.

• 26:25Leah Litman?

  The conservative grievance energy. He is always the victim, right?

• 26:29Melissa Murray?

  He did talk about the censorship.

• 26:31Kate Shaw?

  Scheduling choices. He is the victim of that.

• 26:33Leah Litman?

  He's the victim of John Roberts. So.

• 26:36Melissa Murray?

  He talked about that. I mean, he talked about the importance of these issues because there are so many social media platforms that engage in the censorship of conservative viewpoints. So that is in there and he made sure to put it in.

• 26:48Leah Litman?

  But, you know, he concluded, even though strict scrutiny might apply, he wasn't so sure that the law would be constitutional under any level of scrutiny. You know, as Kate was suggesting charitably, to me, this wasn't the most annoying Neil Gorsuch separate writing, but I just wasn't in the mood for it right now, like on the eve of TikTok's demise. Not the guy I want to hear from.

• 27:08Melissa Murray?

  It's raw for you right now.

• 27:10Leah Litman?

  It's no, it's not raw for me right now, in the sense in which I invoked it earlier.

• 27:16Melissa Murray?

  I just meant you're in your feelings right now.

• 27:18Leah Litman?

  Yes, no, I am in my feelings because now we are going to be experiencing the release of Reputation, Taylor's version, without TikTok, like without all of these TikTok sleuths to find all of the amazing Easter eggs and nuggets in there. I mean, again, my personal Chinese spy gave me the will to live this summer by showing me all of the era's tour surprise songs from the night before, whenever I would wake up to do my physical therapy, without TikTok, I wouldn't know what color Taylor Swift nails were at all of these things. We wouldn't have the Apple dance. We wouldn't have just like all of these like amazing different communities that are fun, funny, entertaining.

• 28:00Leah Litman?

  And again, I understand the problems with social media, TikTok in particular. I think people should both read books and use social media, but it's a loss for me. I am sad.

• 28:11Melissa Murray?

  But it may just be that you're going to have some brologark in his algorithm.

• 28:15Leah Litman?

  Yeah.

• 28:16Kate Shaw?

  Trying to cheer you up first thing in the morning, right? So.

• 28:19Melissa Murray?

  I also want to emphasize for whoever might be listening, the Chinese spy is a metaphor. Like, she is just joking around.

• 28:25Leah Litman?

  It's a joke. Again, it goes to something that came up during the argument, which is everybody on TikTok knows that there's some affiliation between the platform and the Chinese government because people were just making TikToks that are jokingly addressed to my personal Chinese spy, evincing, right, their awareness that China is in fact watching and monitoring them. And it is, you know, they were also, well, I'll get to what they were also doing a little bit later, but back to the tech oligarchy, because one possibility coming out of all of this is this is going to become another kind of manifestation or expansion of the tech oligarchy.

• 29:05Leah Litman?

  So the platform's CEO, Shouzi Chu, was among the many tech executives who visited Trump's country club Mar-a-Lago last month.

• 29:15Melissa Murray?

  Can I just add, like, this is the same guy who appeared before Congress and Tom Cotton, whose views about TikTok we have now shared, literally peppered him, not even just like, like, kind of assaulted him with questions about whether he was.

• 29:28Leah Litman?

  He was like, aren't you Chinese?

• 29:29Melissa Murray?

  Yeah, he's like, no, dude, I'm from Singapore. He's like, have you ever had another passport? Nope, just Singapore.

• 29:34Leah Litman?

  Nope.

• 29:35Melissa Murray?

  Ever applied for citizenship anywhere else? Nope, just Singapore. Yeah, I mean, it was a lot, but I'm just like, but he's at Mar-a-Lago bending the knee, like.

• 29:44Leah Litman?

  Right, and at the same time, you know, Shouzi Chu is there, Mark Zuckerberg, Mark Zuckerberg, um.

• 29:51Kate Shaw?

  Makes him sound way cuddly.

• 29:52Leah Litman?

  He is the bear.

• 29:54Melissa Murray?

  Don't choose that bear.

• 29:55Leah Litman?

  Yeah, don't choose that bear, choose the other bears. Um, Mark Zuckerberg.

• 30:00Melissa Murray?

  Burnside bears, any bear, really.

• 30:04Leah Litman?

  Uh, who leads Meta, you know, owns Facebook and Instagram, is also, right, grovelling before Donald Trump and potentially stands to benefit from a TikTok ban. And this law could maybe shift control over TikTok to a US billionaire and an aspiring or current oligarch. You know, these considerations pull in different directions when you're thinking about what they might lead Donald Trump to do, but the point is, the appearance of corruption influencing the decision is both stark and foul.

• 30:30Kate Shaw?

  And in addition to the Mar-a-Lago visits that you just mentioned, I'm pretty sure all these guys are going to be at the inauguration on Monday. So as the master dealmaker assumes control of the nuclear codes and the world's most powerful military, maybe he can do a side deal to see which broligark is going to get the rose to become the next head of TikTok. So, you know, get a lot done in one day.

• 30:54Melissa Murray?

  Okay, that is truly dark and deep. Let's identify some of the unintended consequences of the TikTok ban, things that maybe the court did not really anticipate coming when they issued this decision. So one thing that has happened is because of the impending ban, the most downloaded app among leading app stores in the United States this week was another Chinese social media app, this one called Xiaohongshu, which means little red book, like Mao Zedong's little red book. But it uses as its English name, Red Note. And this one is actually run by the Chinese government. So kind of an epic

• 31:38Melissa Murray?

  fail here, guys. The app's terms reportedly include things like you have to agree to be a member of the Chinese Communist Party and uphold socialist values.

• 31:50Kate Shaw?

  And America's young people are just flocking there.

• 31:52Melissa Murray?

  Yes. Like, did John Roberts see this coming? I don't know. Amanda Hess of the New York Times described what is happening on Red Note in this way, quote, "Chinese power users and American newbies are spontaneously performing a mocking burlesque of national security policy," end quote. Great job, America. First rate.

• 32:17Leah Litman?

  Yeah. So those are the TikTok refugees. Already mentioned, you know, the Chinese spy videos that people are making on TikTok. People are also making videos where they are literally just sharing their personal information on TikTok. Like, here's my email address, here's my date of birth, right? Like China FYI, they are mockingly simulating, sending Hair packages to the Chinese Communist Party, which they enclose like a cheek swab and a hair. They are, you know, becoming very angry about how the US federal government doesn't protect their data anyways.

• 32:56Leah Litman?

  And, you know, the Red Note videos are generating like truly unhinged videos about how China is just immensely better than the United States. And

• 33:08Melissa Murray?

  There was one that was so funny, like there was a post that I saw on Blue Sky where I think that American users were inviting Chinese users to explain what's like the weirdest thing about the United States to them. And a Chinese user apparently wrote, why do you eat like your healthcare is free?

• 33:29Leah Litman?

  Sick burn, sick burn. And again, like, these are the kinds of conversations and like fun, mocking jives that are happening on TikTok and are now happening on a social media platform actually owned by the Chinese.

• 33:48Melissa Murray?

  Literally called Little Red Book.

• 33:51Leah Litman?

  Right. And Donald Trump has just given us the warning that he's already working on it. So on his own social media platform, True Social, he said, quote, "The Supreme Court decision was expected and everyone must respect it. My decision on TikTok will be made in the not too distant future, but I must have time to review the situation. Stay tuned!" exclamation mark.

• 34:14Melissa Murray?

  Big Neil Gorsuch energy. I need time for this.

• 34:18Kate Shaw?

  It's also just inviting, like, y'all lobby me and worse.

• 34:21Leah Litman?

  Yes.

• 34:21Kate Shaw?

  Because

• 34:22Leah Litman?

  Exactly.

• 34:23Kate Shaw?

  We're about to be open for business.

• 34:24Leah Litman?

  Show me how much you want it.

• 34:25Kate Shaw?

  Yeah.

• 34:26Leah Litman?

  Right?

• 34:27Melissa Murray?

  Mar-a-Lago has a private jet landing strip, so.

• 34:30Leah Litman?

  Yes.

• 34:30Melissa Murray?

  Come on down, fellas.

• 34:32Leah Litman?

  Yeah.

• 34:32Kate Shaw?

  Or catch me on DC Monday. So, here we are.

• 34:35Leah Litman?

  Donate to my inaugural fund, still open. Um, I am not personally making videos to my Chinese spy, even though I was jokingly speaking to them over the airwaves on this episode. But I did want to just take this moment to briefly share the music that everyone on TikTok is using as background for their odes to their Chinese spies. So people who are not on TikTok and haven't experienced this can get a flavor of, again, the humor and whatnot that is happening on the app. So here you go.

• 35:13Leah Litman?

  Melissa, have I changed your mind? Have I softened you on TikTok a little?

• 35:17Melissa Murray?

  I mean, I just, again, like-

• 35:19Leah Litman?

  Just give you this.

• 35:20Melissa Murray?

  A little. Okay.

• 35:22Leah Litman?

  I mean- Thank you.

• 35:23Melissa Murray?

  Mostly for the free speech. Yes. I'm here for the free speech.

• 35:26Leah Litman?

  Well, I documented all of the amazing free speech that was happening. Um, some of it anyways. Um, no, but seriously, like, people are sharing about how, you know, they helped realize they were, like, bisexual or lesbian, right? Because of the content that was available to them on TikTok, you know, at a time when Facebook is censoring minors from searching for LGBT rights issues and, you know, a bunch of other stuff goes on and it just, it makes me sad.

• 35:53Melissa Murray?

  I mean, if my kids were using TikTok to find recipes to make dinner, like, I would be entirely more inclined. But like, mostly it's just like, how to do avatar makeup, watching basketball videos, like, just flooding the zone, really.

• 36:07Leah Litman?

  You need, you need moments of joy in the shit, right? Because like, I watch Ellie the Elephant do dances and other things.

• 36:15Melissa Murray?

  I do love that.

• 36:15Leah Litman?

  Right, exactly, exactly.

• 36:18Leah Litman?

  I had previously posted things. I basically stopped. I'm not good at creating content, but I love consuming it, so.

• 36:23Kate Shaw?

  You are great at creating content. But I know TikTok wasn't, it wasn't your metier.

• 36:27Melissa Murray?

  It was not your metier.

• 36:29Leah Litman?

  No, it's not.

• 36:30Melissa Murray?

  Not your metier.

• 36:31Leah Litman?

  You know, it is my metier. If you want to preorder my book, Lawless, you can do so. We will include a link in the show notes and on social media, the platforms we are allowed to continue to use.

• 36:42Melissa Murray?

  Stay tuned for book talk on Lawless, also coming at you.

• 36:46Leah Litman?

  There won't be book talk, T-O-K. There will only be book T-A-L-K.

• 36:50Melissa Murray?

  Maybe it'll be Red Book Book Talk, and you can do it there.

• 36:54Leah Litman?

  The cover is like a salmon pink. So yeah.

• 36:57Melissa Murray?

  It's a good covers. Thanks so much for joining us for this emergency episode. I know it's weird to have it so early in the year. It's January, but this is how we do. So thank you, One First Street, for giving us an occasion to get together twice on a single day. Good job.

• 37:15Leah Litman?

  Strict Scrutiny is a Crooked Media production hosted and executive produced by me, Leah Littman, Melissa Murray, and Kate Shaw. Produced and edited by Melody Rauel. Michael Goldsmith is our associate producer. Audio support from Kyle Seglan and Charlotte Landis. Music by Eddie Cooper. Production support from Madeline Herringer and Ari Schwartz. Matt DeGroot is our head of production. And thanks to our digital team, Phoebe Bradford and Joe Matusky. Our production staff is proudly unionized with the Writers Guild of America East. Subscribe to Strict Scrutiny on YouTube to catch full episodes. Find us at youtube.com/AtStrictScrutinyPodcast. If you haven't already, be sure to subscribe to Strict Scrutiny in your favorite podcast app so you never miss an episode. And if you want to help other people find the show, please rate and review us. It really helps.

• 38:05Speaker 06

  Hey, everyone. My name is Elijah Cohn, and I've been a producer here at Crooked Media for a decade. I love making our shows with the smart, creative people who work here and hearing from all of you who listen every week. But the thing that I'm proudest of is that video we made of Vivek Ramaswamy grunting while hitting baseballs. No, wait, sorry. The thing I'm proudest of is the work we do through Vote Save America. See, we don't want our shows to only leave you feeling anxious about the state of the world. We want to give you something you can actually do about it. Just this year, our listeners have raised millions of dollars and filled thousands of volunteer shifts to help candidates and causes in the 2026 midterms. And we have no plans to slow down as we head into 2028. As far as I know, there's no other media company that does what Crooked does. We make entertaining, thoughtful content that

• 38:50Speaker 06

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• 40:18Speaker 05

  This is Miles Gray from The Daily Zeitgeist. What happened to the internet? You know, I was looking at DJ equipment one time, okay, a couple times, and I was looking at some hair loss medication, then suddenly it says, "Hey, are you having a midlife crisis?" and all these new ads come up for me? What happened to privacy on the internet? I mean, Firefox manages the messy things you don't even know about the internet without you having to do a thing. It blocks trackers automatically, doesn't know what sites you visit, and comes with a free built-in VPN when you're on public Wi-Fi. Firefox makes it easy to switch by letting you bring bookmarks, passwords, and history from the browser you use now. Come back to Firefox. Visit www-firedfox.com.