The Missing Piece in Longevity: The Top Gerontologist on Aging, Joy, and the Science of Thriving

In this episode of unPaused, Dr. Mary Claire Haver sits down with Dr. Kerry Burnight, a gerontologist and national leader in aging research who spent 18 years teaching geriatric medicine at the University of California Irvine School of Medicine and is the author of Joyspan: The Art and Science of Thriving in Life's Second Half. Dr. Burnight brings a framework that is especially relevant for women navigating menopause and midlife: the key to good longevity is not how long you live. It is how much you love the life you are living. Dr. Haver and Dr. Burnight begin with the concept of joyspan itself, a term Dr. Burnight coined to name the missing piece between lifespan and healthspan. Drawing on the American Psychological Association's definition of joy as wellbeing and life satisfaction, they explore why joy is not a luxury add-on to healthy aging but a measurable, cultivatable vital sign. Dr. Burnight explains the distinction between joy and happiness, why happiness is circumstantial while joy is an inside job, and how Viktor Frankl's research on finding meaning under extreme suffering forms the scientific and philosophical foundation of her framework. They also discuss Yale University research showing that aging beliefs alone can impact longevity by up to seven and a half years, influence inflammation levels, and affect disease expression, making the way women think about getting older one of the most powerful health interventions available. Guest links: Dr. Kerry Burnight https://drkerryburnight.com/ Dr. Kerry Burnight https://www.instagram.com/the_gerontologist/?hl=en (Instagram) Dr. Kerry Burnight https://www.linkedin.com/in/dr-kerry-burnight-5b958434 (LinkedIn) Books: “Joyspan: The Art and Science of Thriving in Life's Second Half https://www.amazon.com/Joyspan-Science-Thriving-Lifes-Second-ebook/dp/B0DNF11NHW?ref_=ast_author_dp&th=1&psc=1,” by Dr. Kerry Burnight “The New Perimenopause,”⁠ https://thepauselife.com/pages/the-new-perimenopause-book by Dr. Mary Claire Haver ⁠"The New Menopause"⁠ https://www.amazon.com/New-Menopause-Navigating-Through-Hormonal/dp/059379625X/ref=sr_1_2?adgrpid=190238689390&dib=eyJ2IjoiMSJ9.djG88jtefTqLpTg36Li8QMNmXkpzLIfbFdY438Vro2vit_rKymy65UpF10hk_VTrxmazFUemwk7ywlmqHYY80j-V3LaeSD824-02PCtdlS8Fzp1XPcZs68nYHCL4V_ZdZBTJya---9Ng5PtKdOf-U3ENtuDXbDw68ULSk2wNk6Lt6mEhIPkuLM7FhztUzBJZ0wNBUQCSs6Pk1ZhoV2JDlzRapnMjnZgOq7PBA7Wy2KM._ZZSn21KJ43AyMvvSvI9_Hs3q74tpMBoCJ2zwi9enkc&dib_tag=se&hvadid=779626799212&hvdev=c&hvexpln=0&hvlocphy=9004331&hvnetw=g&hvocijid=16430100151400627515--&hvqmt=e&hvrand=16430100151400627515&hvtargid=kwd-2465259580440&hydadcr=15551_13558570_10211&keywords=perimenopause+book+mary+claire&mcid=ab159bad5384301d948e659e4b52f68d&qid=1774909744&sr=8-2 by Dr. Mary Claire Haver For full show notes, please click here https://thepauselife.com/blogs/the-unpaused-podcast/the-missing-piece-in-longevity-the-top-gerontologist-on-aging-joy-and-the-science-of-thriving.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:02Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  The first time I encountered Dr. Carrie Bernight wasn't through a lecture or a book. It was on social media, which these days is where some of our most surprising teachers appear. But it wasn't Dr. Bernight who caught my attention. It was her mother, her 96-year-old mother, demonstrating the basic exercises she does every day to stay strong and mobile. I watched this vibrant woman get off the floor and get back down with ease. I watched her speak with clarity, humor, and presence. Here was someone living independently, firing on all cognitive cylinders, surrounded by love and joy, and I remember thinking, "I'll have what she's having." If this is what 96 can look like, I'm in.

• 0:47Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  Because that's not the model I grew up with. My mother and my grandmother's later years are marked by dementia and frailty and loss. Their aging was not joyful, it was painful. So when I saw Carrie's mother and then I saw Carrie's work, something inside of me lit up. Especially because my social media feeds, like many of yours, are crowded with longevity experts making bold claims about cold plunges, peptides, protein targets, red light therapy, mitochondrial hacks, and supplement stacks. Everyone is talking about lifespan and health span, but very few are talking about whether we actually like the lives we're living. And then there was Dr. Carrie Bernight, a gerontologist, a scientist, a professor,

• 1:30Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  a national leader in aging, a woman redefining what longevity even means. Carrie taught geriatric medicine and gerontology for 18 years at the University of California Irvine School of Medicine. She helped lead the nation's first elder abuse forensic center and has been an advisor to the Department of Justice. Her message is grounded in a profound truth. The key to good longevity isn't how long you live, it's how much you love the life you're living. This is the heart of her groundbreaking concept, Joyspan, which is also the title of her book. Full title, Joyspan: The Art and Science of Thriving in Life's Second Half. Joyspan is the idea that longevity is meaningless without joy, purpose,

• 2:16Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  connection, curiosity, and meaning. Joyspan is the missing piece between lifespan and health span. It asks, I'm here, I'm relatively healthy, now what? Women in midlife don't just want more years. We want better years, years filled with joy, meaning, and connection. Dr. Carrie Bernight is one of the clearest, most inspiring voices showing us how to create this exactly. I'm Dr. Mary Claire Haver, a board certified obstetrician and gynecologist and certified menopause practitioner. I'm also an adjunct professor of obstetrics and gynecology at the University of Texas Medical Branch. Welcome to UnPaused, the podcast where we cut through the silence and talk about what it really takes for women to thrive in the second half of life.

• 3:08Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  The views and opinions expressed on UnPaused are those of the talent and guests alone and are provided for informational and entertainment purposes only. No part of this podcast or any related materials are intended to be a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis, or treatment.

• 3:32Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  So, Dr. Bernight, welcome to UnPaused.

• 3:34Speaker 01

  I am delighted. This is my favorite podcast, and I am so grateful. I've been binge listening to them, every single one.

• 3:41Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  Really?

• 3:41Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 3:42Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  Okay. Why did you write Joyspan?

• 3:44Speaker 01

  I wrote it because I wanted to have a book that I could hand people instead of Xeroxing journal articles.

• 3:51Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  That's why I wrote the new menopause.

• 3:52Speaker 01

  Yes, and I would try to translate it in the margins. I'm like, what they just mean by that is to make sure that you recognize that actually gratitude is powerful. It seems like fluff, but it isn't. So there's a practice that has been shown time and time again to impact how people experience. Their lives and that is simply when you open your eyes in the morning or before you even open your eyes to on your hands list out 10 things that you're grateful for because humans we have the problem of doing the opposite. You kind of open your eyes and go, oh, my mom's in the hospital and my kid's getting a divorce and then the brain sees more of what you have put your attention to. So by proactively thinking, oh, this bed is

• 4:35Speaker 01

  really comfortable. My sweet husband breathing heavily, this golden retriever, the fact that I get to, you know, meet a new friend, a frothy cappuccino. I get to go to my next door neighbor who's having a hard time with her divorce, like to proactively put this practice in place. If it was a medication, again, we would be all like, oh, we should be taking this. But it's it's just a free practice. And so that gratitude is really powerful. So when I got the study, I tried to just put it into a book and every single page I kept trying to think, make this practical, make this when people are waiting with their mom at the doctor's office and going to pick up their kid and dealing with work where they feel like they're going to get fired for not showing up for all this

• 5:18Speaker 01

  caregiving. So well, let's let's start at the beginning. What is a gerontologist? I get that a lot and I get a lot of misunderstandings of what it is. So a gerontologist is a person who studies aging. And the thing about aging, it's another word for living. So it encompasses everything. So our studies were of course physiology and biology, but also psychology, sociology, philosophy, public policy, economics. So it's been, I didn't know it because I started kind of young into it, but in my opinion, is the most interesting line of study. What drew you to this? My mom and dad, going along, doing their life, had two high schoolers, they're in their 40s. Feeling, you know, like they're kind of getting it together.

• 6:03Speaker 01

  And my mom thought that maybe she was having some menopause, perimenopause, something about fifty seven years ago. And so she went to the doctor and the doctor said, it isn't actually that, it is that you're pregnant. So when I was born, my dad already had entirely gray hair. And people, I remember mistook my mom for my grandmother. So when people would talk about older people in a disparaging way, which is all the time, I heard it because I felt like they were talking about my parents. And so it was a gift because I had a heightened awareness to the fact that people talk a lot of smack about older people.

• 6:42Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  And what was your path to become a gerontologist? Like you, you, you know, that's not like in the guidebook in high school.

• 6:47Speaker 01

  So I went to UCLA undergrad and there I studied sociology, which I was loved. And then at the time, when you didn't know what to do, you applied to law school. So I did that, applied to law school. My husband and I both got the same score. So that in my mind, yes. So I thought, okay, we're both, he did end up going. I didn't end up going because I was so lucky. I was in a huge lecture hall and it was about four or five hundred people in there at UCLA. And a woman way down there said, I'm a gerontologist. So I stayed afterwards and I worked my way down and said, what? And she said, yeah, I study aging. And I said, how do you do that?

• 7:28Speaker 01

  Well, actually for you, right in LA, there was the first gerontology school, USC. And so that very day, I got my old beater car and drove over there. And the first person I met there, when I said, I'd like to be a gerontologist, maybe I could be a professor or get a PhD or something like that, which again, I didn't know what PhD really was. Yeah. And I did it wrong.

• 7:52Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  It sounds amazing.

• 7:53Speaker 01

  Little P, big H, little D. And she said, well, that's for scholars. I think what you might be interested is the master's degree. And I think, why is that? Just how you look like maybe you wouldn't be smart enough for this. So I applied to the PhD program and I didn't get in. And then I did a year in the master's program and applied again. And so that's like the first lesson right there is we can't all do stuff. But society has told us forever as women that we can't and that we're not enough. And then you put on top of that.

• 8:28Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  Or you need permission.

• 8:29Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 8:30Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  I realized like one of the gifts of menopause is my give a shit factor is gone.

• 8:35Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 8:35Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  And I stopped asking for permission for everything.

• 8:37Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 8:38Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  And not that the authority figures in my life, authority figures men were demanding this of me. It's just like was ingrained in my psychology that I must have permission. Like I'm only a doctor because I was allowed to be.

• 8:50Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 8:51Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  You know, and so I love the way you say that because forever, like, like some self-reflection. I'm like, I have asked for permission for everything. May I do this? Can I study that? And then when I made the decision to leave traditional path of medicine that had been carved out for me by the same authority figures and I had a good life, you know, money, respect, great physician in the community, and then to go off on my own tangent and study something that no one thought was real, that was a big deal, but I had to give myself permission to do it because no one was willing to give it to me.

• 9:20Speaker 01

  And the full circle is you are giving women permission. So.

• 9:24Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  Hopefully.

• 9:25Speaker 01

  Yeah, you absolutely are. You know, every episode I've listened to, that's really what I've come away with.

• 9:30Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  That's my goal in the podcast overall is that I wasn't doing this because women are overall thriving through this transition. So many of them are getting knocked upside the head and, and left on the side of the road. They, they feel that way.

• 9:41Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 9:41Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  And I thought this, this podcast, I want to hit medicine. I want to hit psychology. I want to hit finance, want to hit divorce, like all the things we've covered so far. I want to hit aging, like real aging.

• 9:49Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 9:50Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  Not the fake bro aging.

• 9:51Speaker 01

  Right.

• 9:51Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  I'm so glad you say that because now I want to talk about longevity culture. How do you feel about it? You know, and what you see on social media? I have a very biased view because of what the algorithm serves me.

• 10:00Speaker 01

  Yes, I too am served so much longevity, bro, living and aging as a competitive sport.

• 10:09Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  My God, I feel like it is the longevity Hunger Games.

• 10:11Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 10:12Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  What the hell is going on? Like the Olympics.

• 10:15Speaker 01

  I think that on the one hand, we want to maximize our health. That is good and healthy and we should maximize our health. But as we're doing it, we're also thinking to what end? In order to do what? Is it to take a walk on the beach? Is it to be a good father? Is it to contribute to have a program that's reaching people? Is it to finally write a book? Like to think, think a little bit more about the why. And this age by society where we're just going, going, going gives us no time to think. Being kind to other people is a, is a real strength and being sensitive is not a weakness. All these things, the strength in competition model to me is taking away from how great life can be. You know?

• 10:58Speaker 01

  And so if we could really lean into it and say, when we were young, we were our authentic selves. We wore tiaras and boots and tights and danced around.

• 11:07Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  Oh, babies, kids.

• 11:08Speaker 01

  Yes, when we were little, we did our thing. And then society pushed us in and they said, wear beige and don't talk too loud and don't cry and don't cackle and don't. And so we started, but older can proactively be a time where we let ourselves, our authentic selves out and to sing and dance and have kindness and to let yourself be foolish and to like say, yeah, like, yeah, I got a really huge ass right now. Oh, well, you know, like to, to live and lean into it is so liberating. And when we see people doing it, when we see role models like that, we can't get enough of them.

• 11:43Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  I know. So if you could, you know, cut through the noise and, and so for our female listeners at least, give her three tools, three things that will help her actually move the needle on aging. What would they be?

• 11:57Speaker 01

  The first is to picture right now, the best possible future you. So you might be in your car, you might be at the gym, might be laying in bed. You might be crying right now, which is just fine. Picture that. Version of yourself and what are you doing? And are you enjoying a hike or a sunset? Do you have a kid on your lap? Are you hugging a cat? What is that best possible self? Because we work toward what we imagine. And so this thing of picturing yourself like I'm just gonna be this hideous, irrelevant, suffering person with tubes all in me. That's really dangerous.

• 12:42Speaker 01

  So that's step one. Your best possible future you. Okay. Step two is to cut out that internalized ageism noise and recognize it when it comes. And give yourself grace because of course you think that because you're all day, every day told that message that it's not okay to be old or that to say someone is old. Recognize that your words matter. So I always say older adult. That's the terminology that I use more than senior, more than elderly, certainly more than honey, cutie babe. Right? To think about just the most adult time that you will ever be is older adult. And then the third is to pick up your phone today and call somebody who you've maybe lost touch with and just say, I was just thinking about you.

• 13:27Speaker 01

  Would you want to get a cup of coffee together or knock next door? Is to really make these connections and know that our lives depend upon moments like this where we're connecting and feel seen and heard at times that it feels really lonely and really frightening and really overwhelming.

• 13:45Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  But I want to go back to joy. Let's talk about joy.

• 13:47Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 13:48Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  You have said that joy is not a luxury add on to aging. So my social media is filled with right now hockey players, which I'm totally okay with. And a lot of growth science, talking about living to 120 and all the fancy things they're doing to get there. There's not this, a lot of talk around the life that they're leading.

• 14:09Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 14:09Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  You know?

• 14:09Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 14:10Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  That seems really lonely to me to live to 120 because most of the people you've surrounded yourself with your whole life aren't going to be there with you.

• 14:15Speaker 01

  Right.

• 14:16Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  So you've described joy as a vital sign. Why do you say that?

• 14:20Speaker 01

  In the study of aging and from doing it, like kind of having a front row seat of thousands of people of aging, what I found was that people were not thinking it through. And I think that's still the case today. So they think, if I just do this, if I just do this. But let yourself think, the outcome is that we have limited time on earth. And so when we start with the end in mind, it's not a failure to die. It's natural and we're supposed to and we're going to. And no amount of VO2 max or green drinks is going to change that. So absolutely, we want to live as long as possible.

• 15:01Speaker 01

  Absolutely, we want to be as healthy as possible in our mind and in our spirit. But even more than that, like why? It's the quality of our life. And so when I looked into quality of life, you know, I thought about, could I call it well-being span? Could I call it quality of lifespan? I one day saw that the American Psychological Association defined joy a little bit differently than it's used in everyday social media. So they define joy as well-being and life satisfaction. And so then I thought, it's not too much to ask for joy in longevity. And again, when I asked permission, if I might be able to make up a word,

• 15:44Speaker 01

  people said, oh, no, no, you can't really have joy. You can tolerate being old, but not joy. And that's not true. So joy is different from happiness. Okay, there is a difference between joy and happiness. Yes, and I love starting there. And I would, if I thought it was just the same thing, I would say, oh, give me a break, lady. My husband just died and I was just diagnosed with ALS. You're not going to be happy all the time, at all, particularly as we get older. It's hard and there's a lot of real stuff that's coming our way all the time, all of us. Whether you know it or not, everybody's carrying a lot and it gets to be more so as we get older. So happiness is real, up and down, it's circumstantial.

• 16:27Speaker 01

  It's where we get into toxic positivity, like just make everything okay. Dangerous, fake, not it. Joy is something that's inside out, it's an inside out job. And where I really most learned about it was from the work of Viktor Frankl. So Viktor Frankl was like you and MD, he was a psychiatrist. He was in a concentration camp. I mean, I don't think anything gets worse than that. And yet what he wrote is that regardless of circumstance, you can maintain your freedom because it's internal.

• 17:01Speaker 01

  So this spiritual freedom of who you are, you can have all the awful, awful things that this human life brings and still have joy. And to me, that is so hopeful because there's so much fear around aging. And when you say, yeah, stuff is gonna happen. And it's not because I'm doing it wrong. But when it does, I'm going to have prepared myself to be able to walk with the hard stuff. And that is joy. And you can't always tell. So sometimes joy looks like a smile. A lot of times it doesn't. So I have patients who, you'll have two women looking out the window at the trees. One is miserable and suffering.

• 17:43Speaker 01

  And one is, has the same facial expression, really experiencing joy. Because it's this inside job. And so each of us can cultivate that. And there's all this science around it, which I didn't know.

• 17:57Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  I was always under the impression that that's a personality trait.

• 18:00Speaker 01

  Right.

• 18:00Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  You know, there are just certain people who are always gonna be happy, are always gonna see the positive or the bright side. But you're saying that this is a skill.

• 18:07Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 18:08Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  That can be learned.

• 18:09Speaker 01

  Are people born with different dispositions? Absolutely. Any of us who are parents know, like, you come with your, you come with your whole self. So yes, personality and upbringing and trauma inform a lot of who we are. If it was all of who we are, then there'd be no, no point in this. But what the research shows is that in the same way that we can cultivate our physical strength, we can cultivate our well-being and our internal strength. And that regardless of where you are now, these practices can improve how you feel.

• 18:43Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  Okay.

• 18:43Speaker 01

  And that feels so hopeful.

• 18:45Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  All right, so we're gonna get into some strategies later. But I wanna talk about a little differences between men and women. Because what I see in my family is the women are living longer than men. And my maternal family follows the population curve. Where women are living four, six, depending on who you read, years longer than their male counterparts. But they are suffering more. They have a higher burden of suffering.

• 19:10Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 19:11Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  And that suffering isn't limited to them. When they're suffering, their children suffer. People don't want them to suffer. So everyone's all in to try to relieve this. But the attitude is, I'm getting old. This, this is terrible. This sucks, you know, and there's nothing I can do about it.

• 19:24Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 19:25Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  To make. What's inside of here better.

• 19:27Speaker 01

  Mm hmm.

• 19:28Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  And that's what I've seen in my own, in my own family. So do you see that on a population basis with the patients that you see?

• 19:34Speaker 01

  I really do.

• 19:35Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  Difference between men and women.

• 19:36Speaker 01

  Yes, so when we start with women, because there are more of us and we do live longer.

• 19:41Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  Mm hmm.

• 19:42Speaker 01

  The popular thought about growing older is that it's something that happened to you. It just happened to you.

• 19:52Speaker 01

  But what we're learning is that we have much more of a role in what that older looks like than we ever knew possible. And it's funny because a lot of what we've learned, it's the corollary to the physical part. So our shared colleague, who we think so highly of, Dr. Vonda Wright. She has that neat acronym FACE, that she talks about physical strength being flexibility, aerobic exercise, carrying heavy things, and equilibrium balance. And you don't just look at somebody who is fit at 90 and think, oh, it's just luck.

• 20:26Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  Right.

• 20:26Speaker 01

  No, every day they were doing those things and that it resulted in a different aging trajectory. It's not that they didn't grow older, of course, we all grow older.

• 20:35Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  They're 90, yeah.

• 20:36Speaker 01

  But they grew older in a way that we want to be like, we as women. The same is true with our internal selves. And they even go along with those four, you can even use FACE. So with flexibility on our body, we're talking, you know, we're talking about flexibility. But the flexibility is the flexibility in life that I call, the research calls, adaptation. Knowing that stuff is going to happen in these 100-year lives that you never thought was going to be to happen. So our daughter, when she was diagnosed with a brain tumor, I didn't have that on my radar that that could even happen because it could happen to me, but not to my daughter.

• 21:12Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 21:13Speaker 01

  So that flexibility or that adaptation to say,

• 21:17Speaker 01

  I am going to not get rigid and I'm going to try to at work on going through life in a way that has some looseness and some internal saying.

• 21:25Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  Would that be self-regulation?

• 21:27Speaker 01

  Yeah, so it's self-regulation, but it's also looking like opening your eyes instead of going, if I just do everything right, nothing bad's gonna happen. That's not true. You can do all the stuff and stuff is still gonna happen, but the question is, how are you gonna respond when it does? How are you going to go, I have bolstered myself to be strong enough that when my husband gets a diagnosis, when I get a diagnosis, when my best friend dies out of the blue, that I'm still gonna be okay because I've cultivated what in a physical part would be flexibility, but internally in research, we call adaptation. So that's one part. We'll go into these deeper, but so that's the flexibility adaptation. The second one that she talks about, the A, aerobic exercise.

• 22:10Speaker 01

  So we talk about making sure that your heart is getting taxed so that it can keep going for the whole 100 years.

• 22:17Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  You wanna stress out the body a little bit so it adapts in a responsive manner to be stronger.

• 22:21Speaker 01

  Exactly. M.D. Ph.D. That's it. So when you think about the internal part of that corollary, you think about heart. And the heart part is the connection. And so connection is incredibly powerful. And in that Harvard study that people refer to, it was an 85-year study looking at what was the biggest predictor of how people aged? It was connection. It was other humans and recognizing that it's not just a nice to have, but it's a necessary. So we've done the F, we've done the A. The C, she calls it carrying heavy things, so it's weightlifting. And on the internal part, that carrying heavy things and that growing muscles, I'm just gonna talk about as grow.

• 23:05Speaker 01

  So continuing to grow. We as humans are designed to keep challenging ourselves, to keep doing hard things, to keep expecting of ourselves. And yet, if you buy into the societal myth that it's all downhill, you're not going to do that. You're not going to put yourself out there anymore. You're going to think, oh, that ship has sailed. Too late for me. I'm not fit enough. I'm not pretty enough. I'm not young enough. Like, all this baloney that's keeping us back. So making sure that we are growing and we'll go into that more. And then the last one, the E that she uses, was equilibrium. Are we physically doing things? Are you standing on one foot to brush your teeth? Are you doing the things?

• 23:43Speaker 01

  And on the inside part of us, that equilibrium is what I call the balance between self and others. So what you don't want to do as you get older is become all about self. It's the kiss of death. So I also write about it as giving. Making sure that as humans, we have the opportunity to give our whole life long. And if you buy into the myth that aging is all decline, you stop giving.

• 24:11Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  Yeah.

• 24:12Speaker 01

  Because you don't think you have anything to give. Therefore, you go into this kind of suffering in late life that was unnecessary had you known how important it is to have all of these internal parts. So again, that you are adapting, that you are connecting, that you are giving and growing. To me, it feels like it's opening up a whole new world of saying, do all the physical stuff because our, this meat bag matters.

• 24:39Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  Yeah.

• 24:40Speaker 01

  But it is not the end of the game.

• 24:42Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  By far. And that's, that's what I see people focusing on is the meat bag.

• 24:48Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 24:48Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  You know, the bones, the muscles, and, and not the brain.

• 24:52Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 24:53Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  You know? Brain health, yes, but not the psychology, the psychological part of it.

• 24:57Speaker 01

  Yes, like who you are. And I was lucky early on because I would work with older people. I would have two people with the exact same diagnoses, same socioeconomic status, same genders, same race. And yet they were having such a radically different experience about growing older. And that was fascinating to me. You know, why? Why? Can I not wait to get away from this person? And why is this person like, I can't get enough of them? And how can I be like that person there?

• 25:26Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  Do you see this divergent path? And when does it start typically?

• 25:29Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 25:29Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  So you have group A who is going to thrive with joy, regardless of the usual aging hiccups, all the things that happen to us with aging. And then someone exactly, like you can take twins, you know, and take them down similar paths, but they can have radically different aging experiences. Where do you see this bifurcation?

• 25:46Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 25:46Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  And why?

• 25:47Speaker 01

  I'd say it's different in different people. And so I'm going to use a tangible example, my mom. Okay, so my mom, you know, had me late in life as a surprise. You know, the usual hard stuff of a son with leukemia. They went through bankruptcy. She'd be the first to say she's not a glass half full kind of person. She was going along believing the societal lies that it's bad and shameful to get older. So she was kind of going down a path. And then happily, I was so lucky to discover this whole research that was hiding in plain sight in academic journals that nobody was reading or talking about.

• 26:26Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  The same in menopause. Like, like there's so much good stuff out there that has just been hidden from the world.

• 26:32Speaker 01

  Exactly.

• 26:32Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  The internet fixes some of that, though, so.

• 26:34Speaker 01

  Yeah, so as I would uncover them, I would share it. So of course you share it with people who are close. And I would say, Mom, oh, my goodness. Did you know, for example, that research out of Yale University shows that your aging beliefs, what you expect aging to be like, impacts how long you live with people who think that it's all decline, living seven and a half years less, that it impacts inflammation, that it impacts disease expression? Like something as simple as what you think about aging. So then we dug into it and she started to shift. She was was probably in her seventies. Then she started to think about things differently. She stopped telling herself. It's a shame. I don't want to tell you how old I am or having a senior moment.

• 27:16Speaker 01

  She dropped all that nonsense that is so tempting for us to all do. Because I would argue that we all, myself completely included, have internalized ageism that came from a lifetime of hearing the message that it is bad to be old and it is ugly and you are less relevant and you are all these things. And the reason the message is so powerful is because it's so lucrative. People make billions of dollars telling you, oh, gosh, if you should have some fat come over the top of your pants, which is just skin, by the way, that it's like somehow you should be so embarrassed or that if your teeth aren't sparkling white, you somehow are less than. There's this loud message and it's in all of us.

• 28:00Speaker 01

  But when you start to recognize it and go like, I'm not going to waste this time on earth thinking that so that somebody else can make a buck and that there's no way to stop aging. So if we can change the question from how not to age.

• 28:17Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  Let's talk about the difference between men and women. I don't see men feeling shame about aging as much as I do women.

• 28:24Speaker 01

  Right. I know. And I didn't even bring up men.

• 28:26Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  At least the physical appearance of aging.

• 28:28Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 28:28Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  You know?

• 28:29Speaker 01

  I love that. And you are so kindly redirecting me back to the question about men and women because I didn't talk about men at all.

• 28:35Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  I never talk about men.

• 28:36Speaker 01

  In my practice, I-

• 28:37Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  I have one penis to take care of.

• 28:39Speaker 01

  Yes. Yes, it is different for men and women as it has been throughout our lives. And I think women are carrying much more because of the societal expectation. You think about-

• 28:51Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  I mean, what that does to our psychology. You know, the shame over what is naturally physically happening with gravity and sun exposure and all the things, you know?

• 28:58Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 28:59Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  And but I think that's that's spilling over into other aspects of our life and how this this feeling of women talk to me. And I'd love to hear what your patients say. Because I'm at the transition, right? You tend to get them when they're older. This feeling of disappearing.

• 29:14Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 29:15Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  They feel like no one sees them, that they're invisible.

• 29:17Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 29:18Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  And- I think less, I think the boomers are really feeling this right now, that generation. Gen X is saying, uh, I am not gonna put up with this. And I think the generations coming behind us are gonna have it a lot better.

• 29:31Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 29:31Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  But it just kills me, this invisibility.

• 29:34Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 29:34Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  That women are experiencing, because I don't, I'm not letting myself feel invisible. I'm getting, I've never been louder.

• 29:40Speaker 01

  And thank heaven for that.

• 29:41Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  But I stopped asking for permission.

• 29:43Speaker 01

  But social media, you know, can be great and can be terrible. But I sometimes post with my mom, who is next month gonna be 97. And so some, you know, people say incredibly nice things. But one out of many was like, oh, my gosh, the daughter, 56, looks older than the mom. At the time, 96. And I thought, why do you think that? It's not bad. This whole thing that the big prize is to not look your age. And if you could just look young, be young, whatever. I realized that, yeah, I'm a gerontologist and I'm ageist against myself. Unless you consciously look at that comment and say like, screw you. I don't care. That doesn't matter to me. That doesn't define who I am if I happen to look younger or older or whatever. But I think it takes all of us being pretty, like, strong.

• 30:28Speaker 01

  And just in the same way that we don't believe it anymore when they say, oh, women can't run companies. Watch me.

• 30:34Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  You know, more women our age are starting companies right now. Like, the number one person to start a company, I think I just read this, was between the ages of like 45 and 60 or something like that. And I'm like, oh, I'm me, I'm one of them.

• 30:44Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 30:44Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  So, I did.

• 30:45Speaker 01

  And we're changing it, and we're changing it for the people who come behind us. But it will always have to start with a person. And I think every single one of us, like, if you are listening to this podcast right now, the next time you go to a mirror, in addition to a voice that will tell you something like, oh, no, you've got all these, like, yes, exactly, look at all this. Then you say back to it, of course, that's how next bend. I've been here for a long time and it's gonna be more and more like that. And that doesn't diminish who I am. And it doesn't even make me less attractive. It's society has told me that and I've believed it. I've given them my power.

• 31:25Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

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• 32:06Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

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• 32:38Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  One of the things I'm curious about and I'd love to know your perspective when we talk about the differences between women is the fear around aging, but women, I think the fear, what they're fearful of is different. We all fear looking older. That's, we are socialized for that. Okay. But women fear being a burden. Yes. More than men. My husband, I don't think, we're thinking about it now because of what our parents are going through. I've talked about my mom, but his mom, his dad died in February after a protracted disability illness that took away his ability to move. And it was really hard, you know? Really hard. And his mom stepped up even though she had stage four breast cancer, metastatic tumor for bones and was doing the majority of caregiving.

• 33:20Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  So we're like, we want to be benefactors and not burdens, but I think that's more of how women are thinking about how they age and what they're fearing. Do you see that? Yes, very much so. Yeah. So the fear of being a burden.

• 33:33Speaker 01

  Comes from many areas, but one part is also societal talk about independence.

• 33:39Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  I say it all the time. I want to be independent, but maybe I don't know what that means.

• 33:43Speaker 01

  Right. So people do, and they'll say, people will say to me, I'll be okay as long as I'm independent. And when I really dug into it, humans are in fact interdependent.

• 33:53Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  Okay.

• 33:53Speaker 01

  You've always been interdependent, even as a teenager, maybe with girlfriends, and we're certainly with partners, and with our children, and with our grandchildren. So, starting to think about interdependence really helps for this burden thinking. And the other thing is, we love to be the givers. So women feel praised and feel good when you get to be the one to say, "Are you sick? Let me bring you some chicken soup. I will do that right now." But we don't think it through that when we can accept, we're giving the other person that giver's high. So, to learn to accept help, that it's not wrong, that it's not less than,

• 34:36Speaker 01

  you're giving them giving in the same way that you have gotten to give. And so again, that takes some rethinking.

• 34:42Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  You talk about internalized ageism?

• 34:45Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 34:45Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  As this force, you know, how do you think that's showing up in women?

• 34:49Speaker 01

  So, everybody's talking about AI, and I'm all about IA. So IA is internalized ageism, and it is the fact that ageism isn't just other people judging you, which they are, but it's also the most damaging, which is you judging yourself. And it's that dialogue in your head, and it profoundly impacts how you age. So when you said, you talked about that path, how some people go down one path, step one today is that everybody recognizes that you have some IA, some internalized ageism, and that it is your job to be your biggest cheerleader.

• 35:24Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  What does that sound like?

• 35:26Speaker 01

  It sounds like this. You're looking at your phone. I'm just gonna use myself as my example. I'm looking at my phone, and I go, "Oh my gosh, I got 25 chins." Like, that's so bad. And then I start going like this. Then I say, Are you less than because you have that? Do you, can you make less of a contribution in this world? Do you enjoy sunsets less? Is that pizza less tasty? Are you less funny? No, like you're buying into their stuff and you're putting it on yourself. We have the key to these handcuffs, but we don't realize we have. So it is, you know, fancy term is cognitive behavioral therapy to yourself, which is replacing those thoughts.

• 36:05Speaker 01

  And when my patients start, I just say, note every time that you say something unkind to yourself, particularly when it's about aging related stuff, note it and come back to me. And then they come back and they go, I couldn't find my car and I thought it was because I had dementia. I couldn't, you know, nobody turned their head to look at me. So I figured I was less than. A lot of it's constructed and you think about people who don't have like perfectly tight skin and they have a lot of chins, they're living their lives in a great way. It's not about that. We make it much worse on ourselves than it actually is in the world. Let's talk about aging in place. I think a lot of our listeners are in our age bracket when we looked at demographics and they're thinking about their parents are thinking about, you know,

• 36:50Speaker 01

  where's this going to go down? How's this going to happen? What do women really need to understand about things like fall risk and bone loss and mobility and medicine? And I know you went through this with your mom. Yes, so aging in place is the preferred over 90 something percent of people want to stay at home. And being able to maximize our ability to stay home matters. And so of course, all the strength and mobility training of making a house that had, doesn't have such treacherous fall risks, recognizing that at every age, you need to hold the railing every single time you walk down the stairs. Nobody thinks they're going to fall ever. But I have patients at age 40 who are carrying the laundry like this. Me, me, I live in an elevated home. Yes.

• 37:35Speaker 01

  I don't ever, ever, ever, the lights are on and I'm holding on to the rail 100% of the time because I've fallen twice. Yes. You know, and holding the laundry going down the stairs. Yes. So every single time stopping yourself. Going, "I'm gonna be the person who slows down and does these things." And then recognizing that there are no hard and fast rules. So we don't ever promise to our parents, even if they ask us, "To promise me you'll always let me make it so I can age at home." Or, "Promise yourself, I will always just be here." We don't know what's gonna happen. So yeah, let's be in our own homes as long as possible. Let's do those things, but also be open enough. So my mom has given me a gift. She, at almost 97, is in her own home. But we've done a lot of modifications.

• 38:18Speaker 01

  But she has given me the gift of saying, "If there comes a time that we need to be in a nursing home, don't, you know, don't be hard on yourself. It's okay, I'm enjoying the time." And that's, that's a gift.

• 38:31Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  What frustrated us with our parents aging is there were no modifications made and full-on refusal to even think about modifications being made for what was gonna be inevitable.

• 38:44Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 38:45Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  And a lot of, you know, when I'm talking to my friends, there is frustration with this generation of always having to be on call for the emergencies that were preventable.

• 38:53Speaker 01

  Yes. I love that you bring this up. This is all day, every day.

• 38:57Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  Okay.

• 38:57Speaker 01

  These are the calls I get when I'm driving.

• 38:59Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  Everyone's like, taking notes right now.

• 39:00Speaker 01

  Yes, okay. If we're lucky enough to still have parents, it's not easy. And it's not clean. And I had never used the term "aging gracefully" because I have never met anyone who went through their whole life and it was all graceful. It's hard. There's a lot of hard stuff. So I think one important part is that with our older parents, when a person has cognitive impairment, it is one thing. When a person doesn't have cognitive impairment, it is another thing. So for now, I'm gonna put cognitive impairment, dementia

• 39:34Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  Okay.

• 39:34Speaker 01

  over here.

• 39:35Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  All right.

• 39:35Speaker 01

  I'm not talking about that. I'm talking about people who have the capacity to make decisions for themselves. They are your parents. Don't agree with what they're doing. Right. We don't think it's safe. We can't parent our parents? Yes, we can't. No! I know, and here's the saddest thing. It's so, so sad because what makes us good parents often makes us not such good adult daughters. Because we want to come in hot and go, you know what you need to do? You need to la la la la la, la la la la. And then we, then the parent goes, oh, hell no. And then we get on the phone and we call our friend and go, you cannot believe how stubborn my mom is. She blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. I get it, but also, we each have this life to live.

• 40:19Speaker 01

  So, don't do it like, you're, let's say if you're working with somebody who won't make any home modifications. Your biggest thing is, don't do it that way in your life. Change it in the future. Right. In the meantime, okay, so, when, my advice is to give yourself at least a fighting chance by not going in so hot. Okay, so, you are gonna be the mother in this scenario. You live with some really treacherous stairs and there's no railing and you're like, I'm fine, Carrie. Tub. Yeah. The hive. Tub, yeah, the whole thing, whatever, you're drinking, you're driving, you're doing all this stuff. So, I'm the adult daughter. Our, I understand the inclination, what we wanna do is, I wanna come in and fix and tell you what you need to do.

• 41:03Speaker 01

  If it worked, like, okay, it's just that it doesn't work. And the reason it doesn't work, because it puts the older adult like this. Like, you don't tell me what I'm gonna do. And I got a taste of it, so, this is a tiny example, but I was looking at my phone and one of my adult children, I was doing it right, it was just taking me a sec, like whipped it out of my hand and said, let me do it for you. And I was like, no, no, no, I, I can do it, I was just like taking a second. And I thought, that little tiny taste is the same taste of going in too hot with your aging parents. So, I'm not saying you don't have legit concerns, that is all legit, but going in like this. Mom, tell me about what's on your mind a lot these days. Shut up. Let the mom talk. Give her time, time, and let her see.

• 41:48Speaker 01

  She's dipping her toe in the water to see if you're gonna try to take over and take away her autonomy. Because there is this continuum. On the one end is safety. People who have adult parents, they're thinking about safety and they think that that's all there is. It is not. I swear, that is all anyone's talking about. Here's the other end of the hidden continuum that matters so much. Autonomy. You know who autonomy matters to? The older adults. It means that I'm an adult. I'm not, aging is not a second childhood. You might not agree with me, but I'm gonna do things my own way. So autonomy matters. And it's not one or the other. We're trying to balance these scales. But when adult children only are looking at safety, they're going to be in for a battle.

• 42:32Speaker 01

  And so when people I know call me and say, what should I do? Step one, close your mouth for a minute. Slow down. Show your mom that you're not gonna instantly solve her problem, minimize her problem, say, oh, it's easy. All you do is this. Beep, beep, beep, beep, beep. Because it just makes them less than. And they said, what should I think about? And I said, you know, sometimes how a dog will lay on their back and like just put their belly up? Sometimes in my mind, I do that to myself. I'm like, just lay down and let the person who has had more years on this earth than you have had, talk and problem solve and be heard and seen and listened to and valued. And if you can give it some more time,

• 43:16Speaker 01

  maybe even in that first session, first few sessions, you don't offer your genius 50 something year old wisdom. You just be quiet. Then the next time, they're gonna be much more amenable to care partnering with you to create a longevity that works. And I'm gonna give you example with my mom. My mom was crazy sick in her 80s with C. diff. And so it was like just horrific diarrhea. She lost something like 30 pounds. She was in the hospital for months. We didn't know if she was gonna make it. And a lot of people do lose their lives. So when she came home, she was incredibly weak. She's a widow. She has a two-story house. So I, without consulting her, thought I was doing a very kind, nice thing, is I got a downstairs hospital bed.

• 44:01Speaker 01

  What a nice solution. You don't even have to walk up the stairs. I got you this bed. I even paid for it. Look at how great this is. She was quiet. Then I went into the other room. She picked up the phone. Some found the phone number and said, take this bed away today. This looks horrible in my house. I won't have this. My reaction, not the right reaction. I was mad. Like, you almost died and I helped you? And now you won't let me? But the thing is, I didn't sit with her and say, let's think about the stairs. She probably would have come to that solution. Or another solution, which her solution was to sleep on her couch. She loved her couch. Her couch is super comfortable. The TV was right there.

• 44:44Speaker 01

  Something that we don't know about older, but that is true in the literature, is that we have more neurological integration between our left and right hemisphere. And because of that, we can

• 44:54Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  Help my listeners understand what that means.

• 44:56Speaker 01

  What I mean is that we are able to draw upon the left and right hemisphere of the brain working together. And the fact that we've been solving problems for eighty or ninety years to come up with solutions that younger people don't come up with. But in our ageist society, we don't realize the problem solving ability of older adults. So we don't listen. My very best example is my friend who is, has passed. But he had a MD, PhD geriatrics, gerontology. I mean, he really knew. And his name was Gene Cohen. And what he would do is after work from Harvard, he would come and pick up his car. His parents in their nineties with their walkers would take the train. He would put them in the car, drive to his house, eat dinner together, and then drive home. Great.

• 45:40Speaker 01

  This day, he was late. They roll up dumping snow before ubiquitous cell phones. And they're just out there in the cold. So then they look around, they see a pizza place. They carefully, with their walkers, walk over to the pizza place. And they say, you know, we'd like to order a pizza delivered to our son's house. And when you deliver that pizza, we'd like to ride along in the car with it.

• 46:05Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  Oh, my gosh.

• 46:07Speaker 01

  And that is the problem solving that younger people don't have as much to draw upon. But we would be like, no, they had a great solution. If we are quiet enough to value the strengths of older and to see it in ourselves. So there was a time where I was working in an environment where everybody was in their twenties and thirties and I was in my fifties. And I found myself in the beginning, quiet about it. And then I thought, no, I've been around. It's safe for me to, to share your knowledge. Lean into it. And I did, and it really made all the difference. So there are things that get better as you get older. So one is problem solving. Another is you don't care as much what people think.

• 46:50Speaker 01

  That is so liberating. I know. That is the best. There is a greater emotional regulation. So your research out of Stanford showing is you're not as up and down, except for when you have the perimenopause and menopause part. Other things that get better as you get older that people should know is sex can, doesn't always, but it can. And it's, it's, I love that you were talking about it and you were talking about it and navigating it, you know, desire is different. Sometimes the women have less desire. Sometimes the men have less desire and that they feel shame associated with that. But other things that I was going to talk about was you have a greater appreciation of beauty and the simplicity, a greater humility. And isn't that what our world needs?

• 47:34Speaker 01

  A greater potential for depth of spirituality, appreciation of music and heart and nature and just having a cup of coffee. So with my patients, I always start at the end. How do you hope to be remembered after your time here is done? We don't know if that's tomorrow or if that's in 40 years. We start to talk about that. Not a person I've ever talked to and talking to thousands of people said, oh, man, I just hope that my VO2 max is better than anyone else. Or like, I hope that people really think I'm rich or people think my skin looks tight on my damn neck. People say, I hope they knew that I loved them. I hope they saw me as somebody who could throw their head back and laugh. Like these things that matter can get better as you get older.

• 48:19Speaker 01

  And because of that, the best possible future you can be older you. And how hopeful is that? So that mindset reshift from a decline aging mindset to a mindset of. I cannot wait to meet that Dr. Mary Claire at 98 because as great as you are now, you're going to lean into these strengths of what really matters and we have the choice to do that.

• 48:41Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  So a lot of our listeners are like, okay, you're helping, you're giving me tools to help deal with my aging parents, but I want a different future for my children. So say we're in our 40s and 50s. Help us with a toolkit, a roadmap to die with joy.

• 48:57Speaker 01

  I would love to. Okay. So step one, I like that you put die in the beginning because the recognition that our time here is limited and that that is not because you're doing anything wrong. And that you came into the world pretty messy, pretty bloody, messy, weird stuff on you, crying, and you go out pretty messy oftentimes. That doesn't mean you're doing it wrong either. And it doesn't mean as an adult daughter that we're doing anything wrong if things get messy. So the toolkit is one, you recognize that time is limited and is therefore precious. Two, you recognize that what you think about older matters. So throwing out the notion that old is bad. It's going to take some doing, but it makes a difference. The research shows it makes a difference.

• 49:39Speaker 01

  Then those four areas that are verbs are practices. And so there are joy practices. In the same way, you don't take a weight in your hand and do one and then go, am I strong? Ah, you do it every day. You start to do little things every day. So the kinds of things of with these four areas, these verbs, continuing to grow, like to really put some like, am I doing hard things? Am I figuring out?

• 50:06Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  Are you talking physical, mental? Like, what does that look like?

• 50:08Speaker 01

  Yes, I love that. It's different for different people. So I work with a lot of people who have put aside either by choice or by being forced out of their career roles. Many of the roles gave them a lot of meaning, a lot of challenge, a lot of like, this is who I am.

• 50:26Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  I mean, there's the classic story of the man usually who retires and then just boom declines.

• 50:30Speaker 01

  Yes, because I think that what you're stepping out of is, is identity, but is also that growing. So that first step with grow is continuing to do hard things. And so to think, like, it takes a little bit of thinking where you go, and I have a chapter about it in the book, where you think, Okay, how am I growing right now? And for you, for example, right now, you're like, I never did a podcast before and here I'm doing a podcast that's reaching millions of people. It's because, you know, you said, I'm going to step out and become a novice at something. And for many people, that growth is not, nothing that people see. It's just you knowing of saying, man, I've got a piano in my house that's been sitting there for 30 years.

• 51:12Speaker 01

  The kids had never practiced and did it. I never had sat down. What if, like, what if that was my grow? Or maybe I have another patient, her grow was to become a good listener. And I loved it because listening, is that something that's going to change your life? Absolutely. She read all the books about listening, how to be a communicator. And then ironically, she has some problems now. She's more contracted now in her 90s. And it has a bit harder time speaking, but that listening was something that she could do her whole life. So every time I come to where she lives now, people are gathered around because they feel so heard by her. And I think that's something you could take your whole life long. So grow is not optional.

• 51:57Speaker 01

  It is like asking yourself. And then the second one is connecting. You don't just make friends and then they last the whole journey. With these new 100-year lives, you've got to be really proactive. My mom has outlived almost every single friend.

• 52:10Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  Right. And I, I see that with my parents, you know, their worlds just got smaller and smaller and they weren't growing. And they weren't connecting with anyone new.

• 52:20Speaker 01

  Yes. So the sentence to give yourself is to be that friend. And that is the friend who remembers that it's been five years since your dad's passing. And says, hey, I remember your dad died around Christmas. Do you want to go out and talk of stories about your dad? Or, hey, next door neighbor, I see that you're driving to chemo all the time. Could I drive you to chemo sometime? Or, hey, person at the supermarket, we see each other. I don't know if I've introduced myself. I'm Carrie. Oh, you're Bill. So the next time you come, hi, Bill. I mean, all of these micro connections, if, if you could package up what connection, it would be the next Ozembek. Like, it is powerful, but you can't be on autopilot. We've been taught to diversify our financial portfolio. Like, you wouldn't put all your money in just one thing.

• 53:05Speaker 01

  The same is true with your. Social portfolio.

• 53:08Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  What does that look like?

• 53:09Speaker 01

  So it means diversifying your social portfolio. So it can't be that you just go, oh, I have this friend and this friend.

• 53:16Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  Right.

• 53:16Speaker 01

  That's all, that's all I got.

• 53:17Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  Worlds getting smaller with age.

• 53:19Speaker 01

  One thing that my mom has done that's been great, because I read about it and she did it, was to invest in and proactively go after younger friendships. So she has a group of women and they're in their seventies and she calls them the youngs, which they love. And they get together and they, you know, for them, they play cards and they get together once a month. And it's so great because they're learning from somebody who's ahead of them in the journey. And she has friends who are alive. If you put the effort in and keep after it, you will have connection. It isn't just luck, it's complete effort.

• 53:53Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  Effort.

• 53:54Speaker 01

  And pushing yourself even when you don't feel like it.

• 54:04Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  All right. So what about the woman who's sitting here, stretched thin, overworked, still raising kids, dealing with aging parents? What would you tell her?

• 54:12Speaker 01

  I would say first, I see you and admire you and I love you and you feel like you're drowning and you are drowning and that you're a hero that nobody is cheering for. And that this won't, this phase won't be forever.

• 54:25Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  How do they not destroy themselves?

• 54:27Speaker 01

  You can't be everything for everyone and you need to tell yourself in that nice voice, you're doing your best. Your best is enough. And a kid maybe sometime will not get picked up on time because you blew it. And your mom is going to be pissed because you didn't blah, blah, what she said she was going to do. And you're going to tell your dad, please don't do that. And he's going to do it and then fall off a ladder. And you are not the only one in the world. There are other people in your family that you can say, you know, maybe they're siblings, maybe they're just cousins, maybe they're neighbors. If there is financial resource to say like, I know that you don't want to spend any money with caregiving, but I simply can't do this anymore.

• 55:08Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  And that's okay. I don't, I feel like a lot of women don't feel like it's okay. I've had patients, you know, just tell me when they're telling, talking about their family history, who have given up careers, jobs, the joy in their life, things that were like bringing them fulfillment and joy to be dutiful.

• 55:24Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 55:24Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  And I see it destroying their health.

• 55:25Speaker 01

  Right. Ask yourself, what would happen if I let some things drop?

• 55:32Speaker 01

  And would there be ways to say, I can't? And sometimes I'll encourage my patients to cry to their parents. Like say it's okay to go to your parents bawling and say, I can't keep on like this. I know that this is what you want. I am, this is killing me. To tell your spouse, to tell your sister, to tell the next door neighbor that this good girl thing, that we somehow are going to be able to do everything in the save, save the day, isn't fair and it isn't right. And it feels like it's the only choice, but it isn't.

• 56:04Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  I mean, I, I see their cholesterol, their inflammation levels, their sleep deteriorates. And I was watching a TED Talk and I don't know where the study is. But when a woman brings into her home or moves into the home, when she becomes a primary caregiver of a dementia patient, her health deteriorates rapidly.

• 56:23Speaker 01

  Exactly. Her life expectancy shortens.

• 56:26Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  Her mental health and her risk of dementia doubles.

• 56:29Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 56:30Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  And so talk to me about that.

• 56:31Speaker 01

  Yes, because I refuse for that to be my daughter's. Yes, so many of us live with family members who have cognitive impairment. So I also want to make sure that listeners are really clear what we're talking about. So dementia is an umbrella for a lot of different conditions. The most common is Alzheimer's disease, but it also can be, you know, Lewy body or there's vascular, yeah, there's a lot of different. And some are even reversible. So sometimes somebody comes in with a dementia that is as a result of the polypharmacy, as a result of taking all these medications. So with dementia, you know, you do want to get partnered with a care professional who can give you the information that you need to recognize, recognize that it's a disease

• 57:15Speaker 01

  process that a lot of times makes people act in a way that is really painful and that There it's that they're lashing out or that they're saying mean things or whatever, based on what part of the brain happens to have these neurofibular plaques and tangles. It doesn't mean it's it's not just like alcohol, like they're showing their real self. So that's one thing I want people to know.

• 57:37Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  That is, my sister and I have had to really come to grips with that because the way that my grandmother's, my mother's mother's dementia, her, we think it was Alzheimer's now, but they didn't do that. You know, those tests weren't available back then. It was very peaceful, very calm. She faded away. She had some hallucinations and she was scared a lot, but it wasn't like this angry bitter, you know, like my mothers who will have these manic episodes. That is her brain doing this to her. This is not how she would want to be. This is not uncovering this hidden evil person, you know.

• 58:06Speaker 01

  Correct.

• 58:07Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  So and that that was hard at first.

• 58:09Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 58:09Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  We didn't get it at first. We're like, God, she's just so mean.

• 58:12Speaker 01

  Right, and we're being so kind and she's this, you know, the kinder we are, the meaner. I know it. It is not easy and it's very painful. And when you are care partnering with someone living with cognitive impairment, whether it's your parents or your grandparents or your spouse or yourself, you know, to recognize that we are more than just our brains. And it's not an all or nothing thing. So too often I find people say like, well, she has dementia. So and then they just throw everything out instead of like, what remains in terms of ways that people can still have exert some control over their lives, even with cognitive impairment. But when that burden gets so great to often the adult daughter and you think, I am, this is going to kill me or give me cognitive impairment,

• 58:57Speaker 01

  is that ability to ask for help, recognize that nobody and that nobody could do it all, all the time. And if there are resources, either with the older adult or pooled within the family or services, like to get, that is such a gift to be able to hire people, even if other family members say, no, we don't want to do that. Or the person themselves with cognitive impairments, like I won't allow anybody in my house.

• 59:25Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  Oh, yeah, we've, we've had to deal with that.

• 59:27Speaker 01

  We need to get pretty creative in saying, like, in my case, my mom said, I don't want or need a caregiver. But I could use some help from you. And so like, well, because I travel and because I work, it can't always be me. And she said, no caregiver. And I said, so we tried a few different things. And in this case, I said, what about an assistant? Like, what if an assistant came for just a couple of hours a day? It's different for everyone, what they will allow or not allow. But coming at it a few different ways, sometimes we can get to some creative solutions. So sometimes people say, well, my parents will allow somebody to come into the house to help with meal preparation, but that's it. And then maybe we could use that person to start doing some more activities of daily living.

• 1:00:10Speaker 01

  Or maybe there's a next door neighbor who we could talk to. I wonder if I could in some way compensate you or trade goods and services so that you could help out. Like, we need to get pretty remarkably creative in these really hard situations. And also know that our best is enough, even though it never feels like it is.

• 1:00:30Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  Yeah. Let's talk about the difference between gerontology and geriatrics.

• 1:00:34Speaker 01

  Oh, it's such a good question. Okay, so geriatrics.

• 1:00:37Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  I know what it is.

• 1:00:38Speaker 01

  Is it?

• 1:00:38Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  Of course.

• 1:00:38Speaker 01

  For our listeners, yeah. It's when you have an M D. So like Dr. Mary Claire has an M D, a medical physician. And a geriatrician is somebody like a pediatrician who specializes. They have additional training. So if you can get a geriatrician when you get older, because it's so great, they have this existing training. The problem is there are so few of them. There is, you know, thousands and thousands of people for every one. Mine is gerontology, so it's the study of aging. So my department at the university was geriatric medicine, but everyone else had M Ds. I had this weird PhD and I did the research part and the grant writing. And what I got really into was the greatest suffering, because you want to use your life in a way.

• 1:01:19Speaker 01

  So I focused on people who had endured elder abuse, neglect, financial exploitation, people who didn't have enough money to pay for services, were deciding between medications and food, people with cognitive impairment and a lot of these diseases. And what I learned from having decades in that heartbreaking area was that we can lessen the suffering by getting in with a lot of these things earlier. So getting in physically with the strength training, but getting in earlier with connecting humans, with growth, with adaptation. So when people say, now you left your work in elder abuse and neglect. It isn't because I don't care. It's how can we prevent it to begin with?

• 1:02:03Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  Right.

• 1:02:03Speaker 01

  How can we fortify people so that we can maintain brain health as long as possible? Have the social connections to have other people to draw upon so you don't end up totally alone?

• 1:02:13Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  Yeah.

• 1:02:14Speaker 01

  So for everybody listening, regardless of the age you are, you can fortify yourself starting today, starting with little steps about what this new old age can look like.

• 1:02:25Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  All right, let's talk about medicine and the geriatrics part of this. It is hard to find someone specializing in care of the older patient. And we've been very frustrated with some of the care that our parents have received. A lot of it was written off. So my mother-in-law had back pain seriously for months and months and months. And it was so bad when my sister-in-law, my brother, my husband's brother had married this incredible woman and she had sarcoma that was kind of in remission when they married. The last few years, we're just fighting this end stage of the sarcoma. So she died. And my mother-in-law did not get on the plane to come to the funeral because she was hurting so much. And I looked at my husband and I said, something is wrong with your mom. He's like, she went to the ER. I said, did they image her?

• 1:03:10Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  No. You know, here I am, the doctor trying to call the shots. I'm like, they told her she sprained her back playing bocce ball. She's in her 80s. I said, send her back, insist, say these words right in my chart that you were refusing to give me a CT or MRI to find out what's really going on. I'm like, something is wrong with her that she is not coming for the funeral, Chris. And so that's when they saw the meds and she had metastatic disease and had to go find the primary, which was her breasts. And I thought, this is because she's old.

• 1:03:37Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:03:38Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  Had she been 25, they would have imaged her immediately.

• 1:03:41Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:03:42Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  Regardless of if she had played bocce ball a month before.

• 1:03:44Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:03:44Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  And that she had suffered for so many months before someone took her seriously and decided to image her.

• 1:03:49Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:03:49Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  And it's, it's a tragedy. So my question to you, you know, look, you have such an umbrella view of this, this, this high view. Where do you think medicine is consistently failing us as older adults?

• 1:04:01Speaker 01

  Well, I'm so glad you bring it forward because it is consistently failing older adults. And there are so many places, like where do you start? One time I was having some imaging done and I it was cold, so I pulled up the little blanket heated blanket thing really high. And I the man who was working there pointed at me and said, is this for me? Because everyone else was older and that they just acted like, you know, that we weren't even people because, you know, is this for me? Oh, God. I know, so. You weren't even a person, you were a you were an object. Exactly. And then you think about how often that happens. So I think. Yeah, like we're dehumanized. Yes. And so we standing up for people that we're with who are older and then also like standing up for ourselves.

• 1:04:44Speaker 01

  And then the fact that there aren't enough geriatricians to care for everyone makes it so that every physician with this, because every day 10,000 more people turn 65. So there's this more and more and more of us. Every form of medical practice has a geriatric component or has is going to be working with older adults. A significant percentage of my patient population. Yes. Would be considered to be geriatric. Yes. Because they have nowhere to go. Yes. You know? Exactly. Yeah, so I think we've tried to in the academic world, put more aging care, more geriatric medicine into every kind of practice. But do you feel like it should be its own specialty like Pete's?

• 1:05:24Speaker 01

  It still is. And yes, I think it should be. And people don't go into it because it is hard and less lucrative. There's no procedures. Yeah, so I mean, it's so rewarding, but we for decades have been lamenting the dearth of geriatricians. And so in addition to thinking that of course should still go forward, we do need to incorporate into every single curriculum, a whole bunch about aging and recognize that ageism impacts physicians and nurses and front office people. And, you know, it this notion that we're just less than or we shouldn't be listened to. I had one patient who really had a lot of lumps in her breast and was told it was just because she was in her 80s.

• 1:06:06Speaker 01

  But what this woman said, and I'll always remember it because I'm going to say it, is she said, you know something, dear? This breast is also in its 80s and there are no lumps in there. And I thought, you know, like standing up for ourselves. Well, I do you see paternalism here? Very much so, yes. Like this is for your own good? Yes. And I think we have to look at our own selves because think about paternalism. It is every time that you see an older person and you think or say how cute you are, we're not doing ourselves any favors. And I know listeners, you're doing it to be kind. You say, I mean it as a compliment. I just think you, your mom is really cute.

• 1:06:47Speaker 01

  It's really not a path we want to be going to. So if we could stop with old people cute, we're not. And if somebody says to you, as we get older, let's say you're in your seventies, eighties, nineties, one hundreds, and someone says that's cute, or that's so amazing that you're still doing this, or, oh, you don't even look eighty. It's healthy for society to stand up and say, oh, I got over being cute a long time ago.

• 1:07:11Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  When I was five.

• 1:07:12Speaker 01

  I'm vital. I'm strong. I'm smart. I'm a badass.

• 1:07:15Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  The reactive medicine, which is what I feel like that's all that's left for the aging population. Like, where do you think we can do work? Is there a place for medicine to be proactive here with aging patients?

• 1:07:25Speaker 01

  Yes. I think that recognition about quality of life and about how many years you have left and about asking the patient what matters to them can really guide. And we've done good work, the National Institute on Aging, of recognizing, ask patient what matters to them, you know, instead of just assuming that if we can come in and get these lower, what things do you want to be able to do? So to treat the human, not just the body.

• 1:07:55Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  The algorithm.

• 1:07:55Speaker 01

  Would truly improve lives.

• 1:07:58Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  So in our clinic, we do, you know, we put out the fire of menopause if she's having symptoms. And that's the easiest part of my job. And then, because no one else is kind of stepping up, and it's something that I love and is fascinating me. I just think it's such a beautiful part of medicine, is building this runway. But I always ask the patients, what scares you? What are you worried about? What do you want? What can I do for you? How can we create this path, this toolkit, so that you can live the life you want, whatever that looks like? And for most of my patients, not all, but most of them, it is, I don't want to live to one hundred and twenty. I've never heard a patient say that yet. Most of them are, I don't want to be a burden. I want to be a benefactor. I want to live. As healthy as possible for as long as possible.

• 1:08:41Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  And I don't want that last decade to be filled with pain or worry.

• 1:08:45Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:08:46Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  So is that possible?

• 1:08:47Speaker 01

  Yes, and I think, you know, part of it that we've talked about before is recognizing the contribution of older people is, is the wisdom that they bring and the inherent value of the human, even when you are bed bound, even when you have significant vision impairment, or when you're deaf or these kinds of things, is that like to recognize you're not going to be a burden. We're going to, you know, to comfort people that their life matters and that they matter and that we're going to together work to find a way not to just make you languish in pain contracted in a bed.

• 1:09:23Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  Yeah, live to 120, yeah. Because no woman wants that. They're not like, yeah, I want to live to 120 and be in bed and incontinent and not be able to remember any of it.

• 1:09:31Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:09:31Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  You know?

• 1:09:32Speaker 01

  And we have to really, as clinicians, be really good listeners. So by saying, what matters to you? And then you hear them say, you know what matters to me? I really want to be able to get out in the garden. So maybe, yeah, we don't need to be driving right now, but maybe if we could find a way that we could have a raised flower bed so that you could keep doing it. It's going to be different for everyone. And that's another irony of growing older is that sometimes we look more the same, but in fact, it's the most heterogeneity, the most difference that we've ever had is when we get older.

• 1:10:06Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  And it's a blessing, but I feel like we have a long way to go in the way most people are able to access medical care.

• 1:10:12Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:10:13Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  And we have these time limited visits, 10, 15 minutes, fix the problem. Everything is so reactive right now. And this, this is a giant Band-Aid slapped on a very broken medical system. And I think the aging, having dealt with it with now, you know, both sets of parents, I think, I think our parents are paying the price.

• 1:10:28Speaker 01

  Yes, mine certainly have. My father-in-law, who recently passed away, I mean, right up until practically the moment that he passed, we're doing all these treatments and all these things that was decreasing the quality of his life. And at one point, they said, we're going to put in a feeding tube. And thank heaven I was there. I was like, are you joking me? He's gonna pass any day now. No, we're not going to be doing that because a lot of times, unfortunately, the physicians haven't had the training on what is really going on here, that this is a person and that death is not the defeat.

• 1:11:03Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  Some people are so resistant to the word hospice, but I don't think they understand it's either live at any cost.

• 1:11:08Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:11:09Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  Tubes and wires and all the things, you know, and get your paperwork signed if you don't want any of that, but God forbid you don't. You're gonna be on life support.

• 1:11:15Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:11:16Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  Versus do nothing. And I think they don't understand there's such a wide variety of how you can live at the end.

• 1:11:23Speaker 01

  Yes, I'm so glad you brought up hospice. It is great. And people can be on hospice and live quite a long time. There's no, if you can keep living, great, but you can, we can address the pain. You can make sure you're not alone. We can have great environments and you're gonna die. We're all gonna die. It's okay. We're supposed to. And that thing of like, just don't die, don't die, don't let my parents die, don't let my husband die. We've not thought this through.

• 1:11:49Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  Right.

• 1:11:49Speaker 01

  Think about it.

• 1:11:50Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  Why are we thinking this through?

• 1:11:50Speaker 01

  I don't know. I think it's because everybody got so afraid.

• 1:11:53Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  I really think about it because I, you know, sat at the bedside and watched three of my brother, well, two. I was nine when the first one died. But, you know, my dad, which was beautiful and, you know, and my two brothers, which were horrible because they were so young and it, you know, they should have lived longer, I hope, you know, but they didn't. So I've thought a lot about this and I am so okay with that.

• 1:12:10Speaker 01

  Yes, because you've thought about it. So let's let ourselves think about it and talk about it and it's not morbid. Like, maybe you want to talk about it with your adult children. And when they say, no, no, mom, you're fine. Let's not talk about it. You say, I know I'm fine. I am ahead of you in this journey. I want to talk about it. I want you to know that it's okay. You know, I want you to know that we are reformatting what it means to grow old and die. We're making it up as we go and we're making it better if by being proactive.

• 1:12:39Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  Let's talk about adaptation. I think that scares a lot of people. But why is, do you think the ability to adapt is more important than avoiding hardship? I guess because hardship's gonna come.

• 1:12:49Speaker 01

  It's gonna come. And you can put your head in the sand and say, la la la, nothing bad is gonna happen to me, nothing ever will be hard. And that's a lie. It will, because that's human, that's humanity. And stuff happens. You're not alone, like, we all have really, like, huh, stuff. And usually, you don't know the stuff that other people have, because they're carrying it in a way that doesn't show. So get your head out from under the la la and say, because I'm human, there's gonna be lovely things, and there's gonna be heartbreaking, hard things. And I'm gonna be okay. Because otherwise, it's just suffering twice, right?

• 1:13:30Speaker 01

  When the hard thing happens, it's like, if you fall to pieces and everything is just... But if you can say, I don't like it that my life partner, love of my life, has passed away prematurely, when I imagined we were gonna have a retirement together. I thought we were gonna hike everywhere, and instead, it's just me for the last forty years. I did not think that that was gonna be the case. Feel it, share it with other people, but then recognize, huh, I might be on this earth for however many decades. Can I adapt to this new normal that I didn't wish for? And the answer is, you can. Over time, with little steps, I want that for you, because I don't want you to lead the last decades of your life in pure suffering.

• 1:14:15Speaker 01

  Because I see it over and over again. I'll have patients tell me, I'll never be happy again. I'll never enjoy life, because then they'll give the reason. And on the one hand, I understand it. But on the other hand, I don't want that for them. I would like them to squeeze the remaining joy out of life. And I think that's what our loved ones would want for us, too. Yeah. What gives you the most hope about the future of how we age? It sounds like a brown-noser response, but it's you.

• 1:14:42Speaker 01

  It is because the work that you're doing and in listening to all those episodes, it is women and humans coming together and saying it can be better. We can listen, we can empower, we can strengthen, we can lift other people up, which is what you've really done for me. As a stranger, you were like, I came across this book and I'm going to share it. And we can be doing that for each other. So I feel really, really hopeful that there's going to be a critical mass of humans, men and women, coming together and saying, we can do better when it comes to longevity.

• 1:15:17Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  We're seeing, I guess culturally, a big transfer of wealth from traditionally male, you know, and what's important to them. And then I've read the statistics that we're seeing that wealth transferred to females in a way that it's never happened in history. And then I'm seeing some of those women really stepping into funding and research. And like, how can we make the world better for all humans, but especially for women? And their health and their longevity and their aging and because they want a better future for their their children than what the world has built.

• 1:15:50Speaker 01

  It's such a great point because there are so many Americans who don't have the financial resources and they really.

• 1:15:58Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  It's devastating.

• 1:15:59Speaker 01

  And.

• 1:15:59Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  To age.

• 1:16:00Speaker 01

  Yes, patients who say, I don't know if I should take this life-saving medication or if I should eat or if I should pay my rent. That's the decision. And so the hope of we as a society recognizing that, yes, there's a component of fortifying ourselves, but our societal and the safety net and how we practice medicine needs to change. And if women are leaning into supporting that, which is I've been seeing too. And if we each continue to recognize what we have to give and then give it. So if some people, it's going to be money. Great. I'm all for it. Some people is going to be just the patience or the mentoring somebody else.

• 1:16:37Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  Yeah.

• 1:16:37Speaker 01

  Or women recognizing, I'm going to use that whole longer life for the good of others and society and myself and my joy. That's a revolution and that is really helpful.

• 1:16:48Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  I love that. So we're going to list everything in the show notes, but where can our listeners find you?

• 1:16:53Speaker 01

  You can find me sitting on the beach with my golden retrievers. But you could also, I would be so grateful if people would like to read and gift Joyspan. And people will ask you, what age is it for? It's for all ages. You can give it as a gift and it doesn't.

• 1:17:07Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  Never too young.

• 1:17:07Speaker 01

  Yeah, it doesn't make like, oh, I'm giving this to you because you're older. It's just, it's for everybody. It's about wellbeing. I'm so honored to have had the opportunity and a lot of libraries have it. That's a good way to get it and get it on Audible. One time you said Joyspan and I was so excited and I want people to use the term Joyspan. So I proactively didn't trademark it because I want people to use it like they use lifespan and health span. It's for everybody. It's like, let's talk about, joy can be for everybody. And I'm in leaning into a teaching phase. I'm having, I've started at University of Chicago and.

• 1:17:40Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  Good for you.

• 1:17:41Speaker 01

  I am so happy about it.

• 1:17:42Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  I'm back on as faculty too.

• 1:17:43Speaker 01

  Isn't it nice? My teaching is people 50 and better. So people are recognizing that they have these long lives and they have all this intellectual curiosity and so much to give. So all the teaching I'm doing is people who are our age and better. And it is so much fun because I'm learning more than I ever could teach.

• 1:18:01Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  Well, thank you so much for coming on UnPaused. I'm sure our listeners are going to love this episode.

• 1:18:05Speaker 01

  Well, just imagine me listening to every single thing you put out. I will be there.

• 1:18:10Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  All right.

• 1:18:10Speaker 01

  Thank you.

• 1:18:11Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  You're welcome.

• 1:18:13Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  You can find Dr. Keri Bernite on Instagram at the underscore gerontologist or through her website, drkerrybernite.com. You can find full episodes of UnPaused on YouTube at Dr. Mary Claire. I'd love to hear from you about this topic or anything else that's on your mind. You can find me on Instagram at Dr. Mary Claire and get honest and accurate information on health, fitness and navigating midlife at thepauselife.com. My new book, The New Perimenopause, is available on Amazon or anywhere you buy books. If you're loving this podcast, I have an important request. Follow UnPaused on your favorite podcast app. Following and listening is what pushes this information forward to more women who

• 1:18:54Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  need it. So if this podcast has helped you, or you feel seen, understood, and supported, hit follow right now so you never miss an episode. Thank you for being here with me. Let's keep going, UnPaused. UnPaused is presented by Odyssey in conjunction with Pod People. I'm your host, Dr. Mary Claire Haver. The views and opinions expressed on UnPaused are those of the talent and guests alone, and are provided for informational and entertainment purposes only. No part of this podcast or any related materials are intended to be a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis, or treatment.