The Last Plantagenets

During Henry VIII's reign, his dynasty was looking shaky: he had only one son, and if Henry died before his heir came of age, the country would be in danger of a civil war. Worse, there were still heirs to the York family in England, possibly plotting against him... Support Noble Blood: —ORDER 'THE ARCANE ARTS' https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/771398/the-arcane-arts-by-s-d-coverly/ — Bonus episodes, stickers, and scripts on Patreon https://www.patreon.com/noblebloodtales — Order Dana's book, 'Anatomy: A Love Story https://us.macmillan.com/books/9781250840578/anatomyalovestory' and its sequel 'Immortality: A Love Story https://us.macmillan.com/books/9781250861016/immortalityalovestory' See omnystudio.com/listener https://omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

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• 0:00Dana Schwartz?

  This is an iHeart Podcast. Guaranteed Human. If you want to learn the wildest facts in history and feel good doing it, there's a new podcast called What the Fact from Connor Tomlinson of Netflix's Love on the Spectrum. Every week, Connor and co-host Carter Roy take three unbelievable true facts and tell you the story behind them. Carter sets the scene. Connor brings the hilarious tangents. Every episode leaves you in a better mood and a little smarter. Follow What the Fact on your favorite podcast app for new episodes every Wednesday.

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• 2:26Dana Schwartz?

  Welcome to Noble Blood, a production of iHeartRadio and Grim and Mild from Aaron Mankey. Listener discretion advised. On October 26, 1538, Geoffrey Pole was visited in his cell at the Tower of London by interrogators. No doubt, Pole was nervous. One of the men that came to interrogate him was William Fitzwilliam, one of King Henry VIII's most trusted admirals and one of the most powerful men in the government. But perhaps being faced with his interrogator gave Geoffrey a strange kind of relief.

• 3:10Dana Schwartz?

  By this point, Geoffrey had been imprisoned in the Tower of London for two months, and it remained murky exactly what crime he had committed. Perhaps the investigation would give him some answers. Fitzwilliam had 59 questions for Geoffrey. The first 12 were about his brother, Reginald Pole. Had Geoffrey received letters from him? Had their mother? It probably didn't surprise Geoffrey that the investigators were so concerned with his family. His mother, Margaret Pole, was the niece of two kings, Edward IV and Richard III.

• 3:54Dana Schwartz?

  This made Geoffrey Pole a descendant of the Royal House of York, the plantagenet dynasty of the White Rose that had ruled England before the Tudors won the Wars of the Roses, culminating in Henry VII, and then his son, Henry VIII, taking over the throne. Henry VIII took particular issue with Geoffrey's older brother, Reginald Pole, an exiled cardinal living in Venice, who was a public critic of Henry's break with the Catholic Church in 1534. Sure enough, as Geoffrey's interrogation continued, more and more of the questions

• 4:38Dana Schwartz?

  seemed to be about Geoffrey's opinions on Henry VIII and the Church of England. Geoffrey admitted that he and his family were dissatisfied with Henry VIII's religious policies and longed for a "change." Change was a loaded word in Tudor England. To Henry's investigators, a "change" could be a coded threat to the king. After all, if King Henry VIII were deposed, that would certainly change a lot. Geoffrey tried to quash that interpretation, quickly clarifying that he meant a reversal

• 5:21Dana Schwartz?

  in religious policies, rather than for the "king's person" to be changed. At the end of the interrogation, he even appealed to Henry VIII directly, asking him for "good keeping and cherishing," and "in exchange for his open participation." He promised that he would confess everything, no matter who it implicated, whether it was his "mother, brother, uncle, or any other." Geoffrey must have known he was putting his family in danger. The stakes for treason against the king were high, and the king was looking for any excuse, it seemed, to do away with his perceived enemies.

• 6:06Dana Schwartz?

  A family that arguably had a more direct claim on the English throne than Henry did, or at least a claim that could unite opponents against him. Geoffrey had plenty of reason to be worried. He was a known critic of Henry VIII and, yes, a descendant of the House of York. But those were not themselves crimes, were they? When, the following month, five of Geoffrey's family and friends, including one of Henry VIII's own cousins, joined Geoffrey in the Tower of London, it seemed that Geoffrey had his answer.

• 6:47Dana Schwartz?

  What seemed at first to be an investigation of one man was shaping up to be an investigation into a conspiracy. I'm Dana Schwartz, and this is Noble Blood. It wasn't just that Geoffrey Pole was a York that made him suspicious to Henry VIII. After all, Henry had Yorkist blood himself. His mother was Elizabeth of York, and his grandfather was Edward IV, Geoffrey's great uncle. Henry VIII had, historically, been on good terms with the Pole family. Margaret Pole, Geoffrey's mother, had thrived during the early days of Henry VIII's rule.

• 7:32Dana Schwartz?

  She had been close to Catherine of Aragon before Henry VIII had cast her aside, and even served as governess to his daughter, Mary. Geoffrey's older brother, Reginald Pole, had been on good terms with Henry as well. Henry had financed Reginald's education, and in return, Reginald helped convince Parisian theologians to annul his marriage to Catherine of Aragon. But by the 1530s, as Henry VIII became more concerned about his own succession, he began viewing these family members with more suspicion.

• 8:11Dana Schwartz?

  By 1531, he had only one daughter with Catherine of Aragon and no son, which left his grip on the throne frighteningly tenuous. The Poles were not the only aristocratic family that could threaten Henry's claim to the throne. The Marquess of Exeter, Henry Courtney, also had plantagenet ancestry. He was Henry VIII's cousin. Courtney was a prominent member of Henry VIII's court as a member of his Privy Council, and he was known as a prominent jouster. But in 1531, as Henry VIII was still without a male heir, members of Courtney's inner

• 8:56Dana Schwartz?

  circle were reported to say things like, "My Lord Marquise would be king," and that he would eventually "wear the garland." It's hard to know how seriously Henry took that gossip. He did temporarily remove Courtney from the Privy Council just in case. Finally, in October 1537, Henry finally had his long-awaited son, Prince Edward, with his third wife, Jane Seymour. But Jane died just 12 days after the birth, so Henry's only male heir had no mother and no younger brother.

• 9:39Dana Schwartz?

  If Henry died, his son would have been much too young to take over the throne, leaving Henry's reign still vulnerable to other aristocratic families with plausible connections to the royal line, like the Poles or the Courtneys.

• 9:57Dana Schwartz?

  Worse, by this time, the Poles and the Courtney's had also long been openly criticizing Henry's religious directives. In 1534, Parliament recognized Henry VIII as the head of the Church of England, overturning the Pope's refusal to annul his marriage to Catherine of Aragon. Reginald Pole, committed to the unity of the Catholic ruling class, was skeptical that a secular monarch could lead the Church. He published a bombshell tract called De Unitae in 1536, which condemned the divorce and Henry's religious power grab.

• 10:42Dana Schwartz?

  The Pope, in response, made Reginald a cardinal and a papal legate, and Reginald began traveling throughout Europe, hoping to convince Francis I, the King of France, and Charles V, the Holy Roman Emperor, to intervene in the situation. Initially, Francis and Charles refused to work together, but the Pope negotiated peace with the two nations in 1538, which made an alliance a much greater possibility and a much greater threat to England. They discussed an international effort against England, in part brokered by Reginald, that would use diplomatic, economic,

• 11:27Dana Schwartz?

  and even military force against England to strong-arm Henry VIII into abandoning the Church of England. Meanwhile, Henry Courtney had made the mistake of making an enemy of Thomas Cromwell, Henry VIII's chief minister. Like Reginald Pole, Courtney was a religious conservative. But he didn't care so much about theological matters like the legitimacy of the Church of England or Henry VIII's divorce. In fact, Courtney signed a 1531 petition encouraging the Pope to grant the annulment.

• 12:05Dana Schwartz?

  Instead, Courtney took issue with the more local effects of Cromwell's injunctions. In 1535, Courtney had been appointed the steward of abbeys and priories in the western territories he ruled over. These institutions played a crucial role in the daily life of these territories, since they employed people, rented land, and served as intermediaries between the neighboring gentry and the aristocracy. But in 1536, Cromwell dismantled them, much to Courtney's chagrin. This development was so devastating to the relationship between Courtney and Cromwell

• 12:50Dana Schwartz?

  that in 1537, a rumor circulated that Courtney had been sent to the Tower for stabbing Cromwell with a dagger. He wasn't, but it says something that that rumor seemed plausible. Courtney's religious grievances seemed even more dangerous given that he had a powerful friend, Geoffrey and Reginald's older brother, Henry Pole. You might notice that this is the third Henry in the story. Courtney's first name is actually Henry, so we have Henry Courtney, Henry Pole, and of course, Henry VIII. I'll refer to Henry Pole by his aristocratic title, Lord Montague,

• 13:35Dana Schwartz?

  to keep things from getting too confusing, because there are also a lot of Poles around. Like Courtney, Montague was a member of Henry VIII's court who supported his divorces and beheadings publicly, but remained skeptical of the King's hostility to local priories and abbeys. In Montague, Courtney found a sympathetic ear for his complaints. In August 1536, Courtney told Montague that he hoped one day to have his revenge on the "knaves ruling about the King", and that he trusted they would someday see a "merry world" again.

• 14:20Dana Schwartz?

  The friendship between Montague and Courtney seemed to confirm Henry VIII's deepest fears, that there was a group of aristocrats with Yorkist blood out to get him. A 1538 letter from a foreign ambassador quotes Henry VIII calling the Poles "a part of the White Rose", the symbol of the House of York. The ambassador wrote that the King had told him earlier that he wanted to "exterminate" the House of Montague and the Pole family more broadly. The ambassador continued, "It looks as if Henry VIII is searching for any possible excuse that can be found

• 15:05Dana Schwartz?

  to ruin and destroy them. I think that few lords in this country can feel safe." Around the autumn of 1538, the King had warned another member of the court to stay away from Courtney, whom he thought was a bad influence. This air of paranoia seemed to have affected the friendship between Montague and Courtney. One day in 1538, Geoffrey Pole, Montague's younger brother, noticed that Montague and Courtney were acting strangely towards each other. Montague explained that they were avoiding each other on purpose to avoid the King's suspicions. But little did Geoffrey know

• 15:50Dana Schwartz?

  that he had caught the King's eye already as well. In the spring of 1538, a family friend of the Poles told Thomas Cromwell that Geoffrey was sending messages containing "all the secrets of the realm" to his older brother, Reginald Pole. Geoffrey, allegedly, had a servant secretly carry these letters across the Channel from England to Rome. In June, the servant was arrested. According to later testimony, Geoffrey Pole watched him being taken into custody and called out to ask where he was going. The servant answered with a warning,

• 16:35Dana Schwartz?

  "The Tower", and soon Geoffrey would be next.

• 16:41Dana Schwartz?

  On November 4, 1538, a week after Geoffrey was interrogated in the Tower of London, Lord Montague and Henry Courtney were both arrested. The two men were charged with conspiring against the King. These accusations of treason spread to the rest of the family. Courtney's wife, Gertrude, their son, Edward, and several priests and servants that associated with them were arrested as well. Investigators invaded the estate of Margaret Pole, Geoffrey and Montague's mother, and a few relatives of the Courtney's to look all over their belongings for evidence and question their servants about their conduct.

• 17:24Dana Schwartz?

  The toughest nut for the investigators to crack was Margaret Pole. The 60-something woman denied knowing anything about her son's affairs. She had distanced herself from her son Reginald after he went overseas and had written to him in 1536, after the publication of De Unitae, urging him to tone it down and reminding him that his primary duty was to serve the King. For days, investigators questioned Margaret "all day, both before and afternoon till almost night", but they recalled that, "for all we could do, she would confess nothing."

• 18:07Dana Schwartz?

  They told Thomas Cromwell that she was so earnest, precise, and "manlike in countenance", that she was either entirely faultless or "the most errant traitress who ever lived." In spite of Margaret Pole's refusal to cooperate, the government managed to drum up some very damning evidence against the so-called White Rose faction. A few priests associated with them had spoken out against Henry VIII. One claimed that Henry was not the supreme head of the Church. Another said that Henry would "hang in hell" for destroying abbeys throughout the country

• 18:52Dana Schwartz?

  and had told a friend to burn his sermons if he were ever arrested, suggesting that he had something to hide. Geoffrey and Montague also admitted to communicating with Reginald Pole, who was trying to interfere in the King's plans from abroad. But did these rumors add up to a conspiracy to overthrow the King? None of the accused mentioned explicit plans to overthrow Henry or to help Reginald conspire against him. While Geoffrey confirmed that he had communicated with Reginald, the government did not have copies of their letters, so they had no sense of what they might have contained.

• 19:35Dana Schwartz?

  Despite the shakiness of the evidence, the government brought Montague and Courtney to trial in early December of 1538, each one day apart. The two were charged with desiring the king’s death, seeking to deprive him of his title as supreme head of the church, and conspiring with Reginald Pole. Montague’s trial was relatively straightforward. Through their investigations, the government had gathered plenty of evidence against him. In his interrogation, Montague had admitted that on November 7, 1538, he had said, “I

• 20:16Dana Schwartz?

  dreamed now that the king is dead,” and two days later continued with, “The king is not dead, but he will die one day suddenly. His leg will kill him, and we shall have jolly stirring.” This reference to the king’s leg was no fluke. In 1538, Henry VIII had developed a sore, which historians suspect was an ulcerated vein or bone infection that had caused a serious decline in his health. Geoffrey corroborated his brother’s dissatisfaction with the king, recalling that Montague, “many times lamented, grudged, and murmured at the estate of the world.”

• 21:01Dana Schwartz?

  Geoffrey also quoted his brother Montague saying that he liked well the doings of Cardinal Reginald Pole, and that their brother Reginald was “ordained of God to do good,” which indicated that he could have been involved in Reginald’s traitorous dealings. A jury of 28 of his peers unanimously found Montague guilty of treason and sentenced him to death. Courtney’s case the next day was more complicated. The problem was that the government had almost no evidence connecting him to the conspiracy.

• 21:43Dana Schwartz?

  Montague hadn’t accused him of his interrogations. Even Geoffrey Pole, who had seemed willing to throw anyone under the bus in exchange for his safety, couldn’t come up with any conversation where Courtney had actually threatened the king. The government found out about Courtney’s comment about hoping for a “fair day against the knaves in Henry’s court,” but these remarks cast aspersions on Henry’s advisers rather than on the king himself. While the investigators reconsidered the 1531 rumor that Courtney’s friends expected

• 22:23Dana Schwartz?

  him to “wear the garland as the King of England” as potential evidence, they couldn’t substantiate that Courtney encouraged or even acknowledged those rumors. The best evidence they had for Courtney’s treason was that he revealed in his interrogation that his friend, Montague, had gotten sick a few years earlier, and when he recovered, Courtney said he was glad Montague was feeling better. Someone wrote in the margin, “against the Lord Marquise,” suggesting that that mundane conversation could somehow be used against Courtney, but that interpretation seems like

• 23:08Dana Schwartz?

  a real stretch. The government’s case relied on Geoffrey Pole as star witness, whose reliability was up for debate. Montague called Geoffrey a “madman,” and Geoffrey’s wife suggested that her husband’s state of mind was “unstable.” On October 28, two days after his interrogation, Geoffrey Pole attempted suicide. According to one account, Courtney went after Geoffrey directly during the trial, accusing him of frenzy, folly, and madness. Geoffrey responded that the only madness he suffered from had been attempting to end

• 23:51Dana Schwartz?

  his own life rather than confessing, but he proclaimed that God had stopped him from his suicide attempt, saying, “He hath saved my soul at the last. The knife went not so far as I would have had it gone.” He thanked God for saving his life and told the court that if I had ten brethren, yea, ten sons, I would rather bring them all to this peril of death than leave my country, my sovereign lord, and mine own soul in such danger. Let us, let us die, but be but a few better we have according to our deserts than our whole country be brought to ruin.”

• 24:34Dana Schwartz?

  Now, this very dramatic scene is likely either exaggerated or entirely made up. It comes from an account of the trial by a propagandist working for Henry VIII who was not actually a firsthand witness to the so-called speech. Even if Geoffrey had received a directive from God to profess his loyalty to the king, it didn’t seem to shake Courtney’s confidence in his own case. Courtney had pleaded not guilty. He considered himself loyal to his cousin, the king.

• 25:14Dana Schwartz?

  He had grown up with him, joused with him, and spent years in his privy council. Regardless of his religious conservatism or his private reservations about the Church of England, there was no evidence that Courtney had communicated with Reginald Pole or expressed any plan to depose Henry VIII. But, at the end of the day, Courtney sat before a jury of 28 of the most powerful noblemen in the country, who had just found his friend Montague guilty the day before. Would they believe in his innocence or sentence him to death?

• 25:57Dana Schwartz?

  To understand how the court would rule, we have to first see how the understanding of treason changed in the mid-1530s. Since 1352, it was considered high treason to “compass or imagine the death of the king.” Regardless of how imagined sounds, it did not mean that it was treasonous to have any hostile thoughts about the king. Instead, it meant that in order to be convicted of treason, those thoughts had to be connected to an open deed, evidence that the accused may actually act on them. In 1534, Henry VIII had been deemed the supreme head on earth of the Church of England, and

• 26:40Dana Schwartz?

  he wanted to ensure that it was illegal to recognize the pope over the authority of the crown. So Parliament passed a new act that broadened the definition of treason. Under this law, the government did not need to connect a person’s hostile words or thoughts to an action or plan. Instead, it became treason to “wish, will, or desire by words or writing harm to any part of the royal family, to deny the validity of any of their titles, or call Henry a heretic, schismatic, tyrant, or infidel.”

• 27:23Dana Schwartz?

  Historians suggest that this law essentially made being a Yorkist illegal, because it denounced anyone who declared Henry VIII “a usurper of the crown” from the House of York. The penalty for any of those utterances was death. Under the old definition, Courtney and Montague were unlikely to have been convicted for treason, since there was very little evidence that they were actively plotting a rebellion against the king. But under the new definition, Montague’s private conversations, in which he admitted to imagining the king’s death and criticizing his religious policies, were sufficient to

• 28:06Dana Schwartz?

  send him to the scaffold. The new treason act also made it easier to convict Courtney. It wasn’t clear that he had expressed any animosity towards Henry VIII, but the burden of proof had been lowered enough that Geoffrey’s claim that Courtney had contempt for the “knaves that surrounded the king” and that he wanted the world to change could be interpreted loosely as a call for the death of the king. On December 5, 1538, the jury declared that Courtney had been guilty of compassing and imagining the destruction of the king and sentenced him to death.

• 28:51Dana Schwartz?

  On December 9, a stormy gray day in London, Henry Courtney and Lord Montague were taken to Tower Hill and beheaded. Geoffrey’s servant and a number of priests associated with the White Rose faction were also convicted of treason and were beheaded as well a few days later. Their heads were displayed on London Bridge for passersby to gawk at.

• 29:20Dana Schwartz?

  Jeffrey Pole was convicted of treason as well, but as a reward for his cooperation with the investigation, he was not executed. Instead, he remained in the Tower of London. Three weeks after his brother's death, he attempted suicide a second time by trying to suffocate himself with a cushion, perhaps fearing that he would remain in prison forever. He survived, and Henry VIII pardoned him on January 2, 1539. This entire incident came to be known as the Exeter Conspiracy, after Henry Courtney, the Marquise of Exeter.

• 30:02Dana Schwartz?

  But whether the Exeter Conspiracy reflected an actual conspiracy remains up for debate. As historian G.W. Bernard put it, "Montague and Jeffrey were dissenters in their private conversations, but outwardly they did little. Their conversations were haphazard, bitter, and largely the consolations of the powerless." Perhaps these complaints would have escalated into a legitimate threat to Henry VIII, especially given that Reginald Pole really was working against Henry from overseas.

• 30:43Dana Schwartz?

  That said, the White Rose Faction was more of a loose collection of disaffected aristocrats with differing agendas, rather than an organized threat. The conspiracy was a product of Henry VIII's paranoid imagination, and he systemically snuffed out any possibility for such an alliance to actually form. Over the next few years, Henry would imprison Lord Montague's son, another Henry Pole, and Courtney's son, Edward, in the Tower of London alongside Margaret Pole, Montague's mother. Margaret would eventually be sentenced to treason

• 31:28Dana Schwartz?

  and taken to the stocks herself in May 1541, at the age of 67, with no trial. An ambassador remarked that when Margaret Pole had learned of her conviction, she said she "found it very strange not knowing her crime. Her death was famously gruesome, because the usual executioner was out of town. A blundering youth was tasked with beheading her, taking 11 strokes to sever her head from her body." But Reginald Pole might have had the last laugh.

• 32:10Dana Schwartz?

  When Henry VIII died in 1547, his daughter, with Catherine of Aragon, Mary, became Queen of England. Mary was Catholic and invited Reginald Pole back to England in November 1544, after 20 years in exile. Within days of his arrival, he formally welcomed England back into the Catholic Church and became the Archbishop of Canterbury, exactly as Henry VIII had one day feared.

• 32:44Dana Schwartz?

  That's the story of the so-called Exeter Conspiracy. But stick around to hear about an unusual piece of evidence against Margaret Pole: a silk coat.

• 33:02Dana Schwartz?

  If you want to learn the wildest facts in history and feel good doing it, there's a new podcast called What the Fact from Connor Tomlinson of Netflix's Love on the Spectrum. Every week, Connor and co-host Carter Roy take three unbelievable true facts and tell you the story behind them. Carter sets the scene. Connor brings the hilarious tangents. Every episode leaves you in a better mood and a little smarter. Follow What the Fact on your favorite podcast app for new episodes every Wednesday. You know all those pieces in your closet that you find yourself reaching for over and over again? You know, the sweater that works with every outfit you try on

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• 34:27Dana Schwartz?

  and might make an excellent holiday present. Quince also doesn't just do clothes. My work bag, my leather bag that I bring every day with me to work, is from Quince, and I absolutely love it. It goes with everything I wear, and it's just like a classic that makes me feel sophisticated and grown up. And everything at Quince is priced 50% to 80% less than similar brands, because they work directly with ethical factories, cutting out the middlemen, so you're paying for quality and not brand markup. Find the fall pieces you will reach for most at quince.com. Download the Quince app for app-exclusive offers or go to quince.com.

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• 35:36Speaker 04

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• 35:56Speaker 05

  To this day, Ordinary would not have done anything, and I would have not been able to put it out if Book Talk didn't back it up and if my wife and her friend didn't back it up.

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  Amazing.

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  Pretty crazy how, like, just one thing.

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  Right.

• 36:08Speaker 05

  I mean, I bet we could point to nine different things in our careers where it's just one thing, all of a sudden. If that one thing didn't happen, then I wouldn't be here.

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  What you're talking about right now is what I've been talking about since the beginning of my career. There's these things outside of you that make everything happen. These other forces somehow came into contact with each other and helped propel you to this place.

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  Experience Before the Moment, a Lincoln original series on the iHeartRadio app, YouTube, or wherever you get your podcasts.

• 36:43Dana Schwartz?

  In May of 1539, several months after the executions of Montague and Henry Courtney, Thomas Cromwell brought a tunic to the House of Lords that was said to belong to Margaret Pole. The tunic was made of white silk and covered in intricate embroidery with three lions, the Arms of England, and a garland of pansies and marigolds. Cromwell thought that this robe could be evidence of her treason against the king. A courtier named John Worth summarized this interpretation in a letter to another official. He wrote that "the pansies on the garland represented the Pole family,

• 37:28Dana Schwartz?

  while the marigolds represented Henry VIII's daughter, Mary. Between them was a tree with a purple coat hanging from one of its branches to represent the coat of Christ." Worth said that this meant that Reginald Pole would marry Henry's daughter and that they would bring England back into the Catholic Church. But was this tunic really Margaret's? There was no mention of the tunic in the detailed records of Margaret's possessions when government officials searched through them in their initial investigation. It only appeared in the historical record for the first time when Cromwell brought it to Parliament.

• 38:13Dana Schwartz?

  And there is no account of what happened to the tunic after Cromwell found it, what embroidery it actually contained, and what the embroidery may have really represented. All of that has been lost to time.

• 38:36Dana Schwartz?

  Noble Blood is a production of iHeartRadio and Grim and Mild from Aaron Manke. Noble Blood is hosted by me, Dana Schwartz. Writers for Noble Blood are Hannah Johnston, Hannah Zwick, Paul Jaffe, Natasha Lasky, and me, Dana Schwartz. The show is edited and produced by Jesse Funk and Gomes Griffin, with supervising producer Reema Ilkayali and executive producers Aaron Manke, Trevor Young, and Matt Frederick. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.

• 39:16Dana Schwartz?

  If you know Connor Tomlinson from Netflix's Love on the Spectrum, you know he's one of the most delightful people on television. He's also a serious history nerd. He has a new fun history podcast called What the Fact, co-hosted with Carter Roy from Conspiracy Theories and Murder: True Crime Stories. Every week, they take three unbelievable true facts from across history and tell you the story behind them. Carter sets the scene, and Connor brings the deep cuts, the hilarious tangents, and his infectious love of history. From the worst years to be alive to the women so powerful they started wars,

• 39:59Dana Schwartz?

  Connor and Carter will take you all over the timeline. Every episode will leave you in a better mood and a little smarter. The wildest stuff is real, and the real stuff is way wilder than you think. New episodes drop every Wednesday. Follow What the Fact on your favorite podcast app or subscribe on YouTube at What the Fact Pod.

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• 41:27Dana Schwartz?

  This is an iHeart Podcast. Guaranteed human.