#ICYMI - Sneakerheads and Sneaker Design

In case you missed this episode on the Playing with Science channel… Chuck Nice and Gary O’Reilly explore the world of sneakerheads and the science of sneaker design with legendary designer D’Wayne Edwards, designer/creator Federico Maccapani aka @Mbroidered, and sneaker fashionista Ezra Wine. Photo Credit: StarTalk©.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Chuck Nice?

  Hey, StarTalk All-Stars might be off the air, but we have an all-new way for you to enjoy the show. Head over to youtube.com/StarTalkAllStars for free, weekly video episodes of the show. You can still listen to all the audio episodes, but we figured you'd like to watch them with your very own eyes. Subscribe to youtube.com/StarTalkAllStars and hit the bell so you can be notified every time a new video gets published. Thanks to our supporters on Patreon for sponsoring this episode of StarTalk. Join them and listen to every episode with no ads. Go to patreon.com/StarTalkRadio to learn how.

• 0:44Gary O'Reilly?

  I'm Gary O'Reilly.

• 0:45Chuck Nice?

  And I'm Chuck Nice.

• 0:46Gary O'Reilly?

  And this is Playing with Science. Today, we test the heat on the street. And for that, we'll be needing sneakers. So slip 'em on, lace 'em up, and if your kicks ain't kicking, then it's game over.

• 0:59Chuck Nice?

  Yes, the superstars of sneakerdom are the designers themselves. Guys like Dwayne Edwards, who designed at least one pair of Air Jordans and is a legend in the game. He'll be first up on our show. Following in his footsteps is an Italian prince, Ferrico Macapani, aka M. Broder, aka Dr. Frankenstein. Muah, ah, ah.

• 1:23Gary O'Reilly?

  He's not a real prince. Not royalty. Well, at least we'll find out if he is. All right, Ferrico has worked with both Gucci and Adidas. And we'll be getting into the secret science of the sneaker with the both of them. And then wrapping up the show, we'll be fashionista and sneaker guru Ezra Wine. So sit down, get comfy, and try this bad boy on for size.

• 1:46Chuck Nice?

  Yes, that's right. We're gonna have a fashionable show right now. That's right, and as we promised, first up, Dwayne Edwards, who is the founder of the Pencil Design Academy and also a prolific, award-winning shoe designer himself with a, with just an incredible backstory. We're so excited to have you here. Dwayne, how are you, my friend?

• 2:13Speaker 02

  Thank you guys. It's amazing to be on the show and getting a chance to speak with you guys.

• 2:18Chuck Nice?

  Yeah.

• 2:19Gary O'Reilly?

  You are amazingly humble because if I got one word for our listeners, it's Jordan. And you have a major role to play in that.

• 2:26Chuck Nice?

  Yeah.

• 2:27Gary O'Reilly?

  It's the shoes. And we're gonna get there. I wanna go back and forward in the same conversation to begin with.

• 2:35Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 2:36Gary O'Reilly?

  Why, what is, and what will the Pencil Footwear Design Academy achieve?

• 2:42Chuck Nice?

  Yes. And before you even get to that, why don't you give us a little backstory on how that came about? Because I think it's tied to your backstory inexorably so.

• 2:53Gary O'Reilly?

  Yeah.

• 2:54Chuck Nice?

  So why don't you give us that and then tell us about the goals and what you hope to achieve in the future with it?

• 2:59Speaker 02

  Sure. So Pencil was, it was a school I wish I was able to attend, growing up as a kid. And it was, it's an academy that I wanted to hire from, you know, during my time when I was at Jordan and Nike. And it came from, as a kid growing up in Inglewood, California, my dream was to be a sneaker designer. You know, growing up in the early 80s, for a kid from Inglewood to say something like that was kinda crazy, let alone just even being interested in art in general. But I was born with the gift to draw anything I could see. And I remember vividly getting a 1981 Franco Harris football card.

• 3:43Chuck Nice?

  Nooo, nice. Yeah, the Steelers.

• 3:46Speaker 02

  That was the first time where they showed the cleats in the football cards. Because normally, they just cut them off at the knees.

• 3:54Chuck Nice?

  Right.

• 3:54Speaker 02

  And I would draw the cards. When I got to the cleats, it was like a lot harder to draw. And so I just got fixated on footwear. So I just started drawing sneakers on 3x5 index cards from since I was 12 years old until, well, 2019.

• 4:12Chuck Nice?

  Nice.

• 4:14Speaker 02

  I've been doing it ever since. But it was just, that was the thing that kept my attention.

• 4:20Chuck Nice?

  Interesting. So here you are, you're a kid in Inglewood, you know, basically, there's not a, there's not a path for you, to be honest. There's not a path for you. So your founding of this school is actually creating the path that was not there for you.

• 4:35Speaker 02

  Absolutely, absolutely. Yeah, my, my destiny, unfortunately, growing up in Inglewood in the eighties was I had a higher probability of being in jail or dead, one of those two things.

• 4:47Chuck Nice?

  Mm-hmm.

• 4:48Speaker 02

  Unfortunately, college wasn't a part of my future.

• 4:50Chuck Nice?

  Right.

• 4:51Speaker 02

  I'm the youngest of six kids raised by a single parent, so I, I never actually got a chance to attend college.

• 4:55Chuck Nice?

  Wow.

• 4:56Speaker 02

  Um, but, uh, but, but Reebok was on my, um, thank you all, um, and a brand that I've been taking it out on for the last thirty years.

• 5:06Chuck Nice?

  Yeah, you have. And so with that in mind, why don't you, how, I, I read somewhere about you were in the accounting department somewhere, and then that led you to actual shoe design? How does that, how do you make that jump? I mean, I know you couldn't go to col-, I know you couldn't go to college, but what a weird jump to go from accounting to your dream of shoe design. How did that happen?

• 5:27Speaker 02

  Uh, well, after graduating high school, I ended up getting a temp job. Um, and my, my second assignment was to file papers in the accounts payable department for a footwear company by the name of LA Gear.

• 5:42Chuck Nice?

  Oh, yeah, yeah.

• 5:43Speaker 02

  And so, um, I, I hated, um, filing papers, but, um, I was at a footwear company, and, uh, they had just started changing over management, and they put these small wooden suggestion boxes in every department. And they were hoping that employees will, will give them ways to save money and new ways to make the company morale better. And so I took those three by five index cards, and every day before I went to file papers, I would just put in my sketch of what I thought LA Gear should design.

• 6:14Chuck Nice?

  Wow.

• 6:15Speaker 02

  And shoot. And so for six months, I did that every single day before I started my accounting job. And, um, I get a, uh, I hear an announcement over the intercom, because again, there's no email, right? So when you want somebody, it's a inter-office message that the whole company hears.

• 6:31Chuck Nice?

  Right.

• 6:32Speaker 02

  And so I get a message to report to the pres-, the president's office.

• 6:36Chuck Nice?

  What?

• 6:37Speaker 02

  And-

• 6:38Chuck Nice?

  You're fired, right?

• 6:39Speaker 02

  I go into his office, and he had all hundred and eighty of my sketches on his desk, and he asked me, you know, are you the person who's been doing this? And he said, you know, what, what school did you come from? I said, man, I just graduated from Inglewood a few months ago. And he offered me a job right on the spot.

• 6:54Chuck Nice?

  Damn!

• 6:55Speaker 02

  Right, nineteenth birthday.

• 6:56Chuck Nice?

  My god. You originated guerrilla marketing.

• 7:01Speaker 02

  Absolutely.

• 7:01Chuck Nice?

  Yes.

• 7:02Gary O'Reilly?

  There you go. Put it on your CV. Put it on your resume. See, that's the classic guerrilla marketing tactic.

• 7:08Chuck Nice?

  Absolutely.

• 7:09Gary O'Reilly?

  Which you know Nike did perfectly. From time to time.

• 7:13Chuck Nice?

  Yeah.

• 7:13Gary O'Reilly?

  I mean, so, okay, you're a young man of color in an environment where there's not a lot, if any.

• 7:20Speaker 02

  I was 21, me and a couple janitors.

• 7:23Gary O'Reilly?

  All right, so.

• 7:24Chuck Nice?

  And did they design too?

• 7:29Chuck Nice?

  Like, cause you know, that's what happens. It's like, it's like, wait a minute, look at this. This black guy has natural design talent. Maybe, hey, hey, get over here, put that mop down. Draw me a sneaker.

• 7:42Gary O'Reilly?

  So, okay, as a teenager, you know you've got something. But what did you think you had that was special?

• 7:50Speaker 02

  Uh, honestly, you know, I just had a passion for designing sneakers. Cause I was, I was what you would call a sneaker head before there was a term sneaker head. So, all through high school, my biggest fear still to this day, my biggest fear is to walk into a room and have the same shoes somebody else has on.

• 8:08Gary O'Reilly?

  Sweet.

• 8:10Speaker 02

  I would, uh, back, back in the eighties, when they didn't have multiple color options.

• 8:14Chuck Nice?

  Right.

• 8:15Speaker 02

  I would go and buy white, white and go to the shoe repair shop and buy colored dyes. Get some duct tape and an Exacob blade and dye all of my shoes different colors just so I can show up to school with something that no one else had.

• 8:28Chuck Nice?

  Wow.

• 8:29Speaker 02

  Me, it was just in, in a part of who I was. It was my identity and my personality just to, just to have something different on my feet.

• 8:37Chuck Nice?

  And if you did that now, you could actually sell those sneakers for thousands of dollars.

• 8:41Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 8:42Chuck Nice?

  Isn't that, isn't that ironic? Like you did it back then just to be different. But if you yourself right now went and deconstructed a shoe and dyed it different colors and put it back together, that shoe would sell for thousands of dollars. That is so dope.

• 8:57Speaker 02

  Point.

• 8:59Chuck Nice?

  By the way, uh, Dwayne, I know we're fast friends, but, uh, could you please do that in a size 12 for me?

• 9:09Speaker 02

  Well, you know, but we wear the same size, so you know, I might be able to slide you a few pairs of things that I don't wear.

• 9:14Gary O'Reilly?

  Man, it took you 10 minutes. It took you 10 minutes to beg a pair of sneakers.

• 9:18Chuck Nice?

  I don't care. Listen, let me tell you something. Um, shame is not one of my strong suits.

• 9:24Gary O'Reilly?

  Shameless.

• 9:25Chuck Nice?

  Shameless.

• 9:26Gary O'Reilly?

  That's your middle name right now. Yeah.

• 9:27Chuck Nice?

  There you go.

• 9:28Gary O'Reilly?

  So, okay, Dwayne, if you're playing with dyes and you're designing, and you know the title of this show is playing with science.

• 9:37Speaker 02

  Yeah, man.

• 9:38Gary O'Reilly?

  Yeah, you didn't go to college, so you don't have a degree in biology, chemistry, physics, or anything else. Like I am the same. But you started, all of a sudden, you worked out what you could dye. You worked out how. You're working out the chemistry of that. You're working out how to fix and fast colors. You're working out all sorts of things. So from where you start in your, whatever cottage garage industry you started from, where, from there, where has that journey taken you in terms of the appliance of science to sneakers? Cause there's some serious stuff gone down in between then and now.

• 10:14Speaker 02

  I think, I think fundamentally, you know, I'm, uh, I grew up as a problem solver.

• 10:19Gary O'Reilly?

  Right.

• 10:20Speaker 02

  You know, even the dyeing of the sneakers was a challenge because I had to, I had to find the right dye. And then I had to scuff up the leather to soak up the dye. And then I had to find the right tape to, that would stick and wouldn't come off because of the dye. Um, and then trying to understand how long it took for it to dry. So just fundamentally, like just through problem solving, you know, science kind of happens, right?

• 10:44Gary O'Reilly?

  Right, yeah.

• 10:45Speaker 02

  It's, it's, it's no different even from a, from a footwear design perspective. I absolutely hated geometry in school, but there's so much geometry in designing shoes. It's ridiculous. Like you can't design shoes without it, actually. But I didn't know that's what it was. I was just doing it to finish the thought and the idea. It was when I started going backwards and reverse engineering the process, then I started to understand the science behind the creation of, of sneakers.

• 11:14Gary O'Reilly?

  Okay, so you're responsible for at least one Air Jordan, am I correct?

• 11:19Speaker 02

  Two, two of them, then I worked on two or three other ones.

• 11:25Gary O'Reilly?

  Alright, so you not just geometry, you're gonna be really up on anatomy. Tendons, muscles, the way, the movement, the dynamics, the biomechanics, everything. And then if you're designing for a particular athlete.

• 11:41Speaker 02

  Oh yeah, it changes completely, absolutely. So when I would design for specific guys, if it was for baseball, if it was for boxing, if it was for basketball, for football, I would watch the sport completely different because I'm actually only watching from the kneecap down. It wasn't until I'm tired, I could enjoy a full game of basketball or baseball, look at the whole thing, because I was so fixated on the actual movement that the feet were making. And physically, the size of these guys, it's almost like you can't really put something over their feet because it doesn't really stick to the foot based on the movement that they actually make.

• 12:24Gary O'Reilly?

  Yeah.

• 12:24Speaker 02

  And so just understanding kind of the physiology behind the sheer force that someone who's, you know, take Carmelo Anthony, six eight, two hundred and thirty pounds, but when he's moving, that triples. And then he's not only moving at a forward pace, at any moment, he's going left or right at the drop of a dime. So that's additional force that is put upon this structure that you built to keep him safe, quote unquote, right? And so because of that, you would have to understand what materials can withstand certain force. You would have to understand the different rubber compounds that could withstand the abrasion on a wood floor with a certain type of polish on it.

• 13:06Speaker 02

  There's so much science and math involved in the process. You just actually, you don't look at it through natural learning as if you were in school. Like if you told me to take a science class and a math class and a physiology class in school, traditional school, I would tap out like, I'm good, I don't want to do it. But if you put a sneaker in front of me and said, hey, you know what? This sneaker has all of these things in it, and you learn through that process. You would learn all day long, like you would probably pay to attend that class versus, you know, you you paying, you know, you you uh learn it and getting paid for it. That is. But yeah, so part of it is understanding the entire physiology of the athlete and and what materials,

• 13:49Speaker 02

  compounds um work with the product, but also the surfaces that they play on as well. Also has just as much of an impact on how you design and create product.

• 13:59Gary O'Reilly?

  You talking there makes me makes me recall just the recent history of March Madness and Zion Williamson where we'll call it, we'll call it a wardrobe malfunction, right?

• 14:10Speaker 02

  Yes, major, major.

• 14:12Gary O'Reilly?

  Yeah.

• 14:12Speaker 02

  Wow, major malfunction. It was the first sneaker blowout.

• 14:17Gary O'Reilly?

  As a designer, as a designer, A, that hurts you, I'm sure. But what kind of, what kind of forces are going through him to rip that shoe apart?

• 14:30Speaker 02

  First of all, I've never, I've seen, I've seen shoes blow out before. Now, technically, when they blow out, what's really happening is shoes are put together, the upper and the bottom are put together by glue. Glue, right. If glue gets to a certain temperature, it starts to loosen up. And that's how it separates the top and the bottom. It's a really easy trick. You can stick a shoe in the microwave and you can take, take, take the bottom off. You'll take the boot off, right. So usually that's how shoes blow out. That's you normally how it blows out is that the sheer heat and the friction from the bottom of their feet is loosening up, the the glue is generating heat, loosening up the glue, and then the bottom usually separates from the upper. This one was completely different. Right.

• 15:14Speaker 02

  It tore through, through a midsole. He went, that's right. Like if you tried to do that with a saw, it would take you some time. Right. To re-cut through this thing the way he tore through it. I'm still shocked. The Nike folks are still shocked. I know the guy who designed it. We had it. I know he was sick watching it. Because that is, that is your worst fear as a designer of watching a shoe blow out.

• 15:44Chuck Nice?

  Right.

• 15:45Speaker 02

  On probably the biggest stage.

• 15:46Chuck Nice?

  The biggest, right. On a, on a national stage. However, um, just to help you guys out, um, I wish you had me as your PR person because immediately I would have released a, a press release that says, uh, Zion's feet are made of razors. If, if you want to know what happened, the brother has razor feet. It's a very rare condition. And, uh, wow, that is.

• 16:13Speaker 02

  Ultimately what happened, Zion is about 285 pounds.

• 16:16Chuck Nice?

  Right.

• 16:17Speaker 02

  He put over a thousand pounds of pressure at that split second. And that's what helped tore through that whole shoe.

• 16:25Chuck Nice?

  Wow.

• 16:25Speaker 02

  Now, what's crazy is no one knows where the shoes are.

• 16:30Chuck Nice?

  The actual shoes that, that had to blow out?

• 16:33Speaker 02

  No one knows. Nike doesn't have them. Duke doesn't have them. There, no one knows where the actual shoes went.

• 16:40Chuck Nice?

  I know who has them.

• 16:41Speaker 02

  And they're all getting valued well over $300,000.

• 16:44Chuck Nice?

  I'm sure, and I'm sure who has them. Adidas. Adidas has them. That's who's got them.

• 16:49Gary O'Reilly?

  I'm getting.

• 16:50Chuck Nice?

  Cause that's who sabotaged them.

• 16:51Gary O'Reilly?

  I'm getting Scully and Holder on this. I'm gonna go X-Files on this one.

• 16:55Chuck Nice?

  Exactly. Whoa.

• 16:56Gary O'Reilly?

  Okay, okay, okay.

• 16:57Chuck Nice?

  Wait a minute, say that one more time. $300,000 is what those shoes are worth right now?

• 17:01Speaker 02

  They're going for right now over 300 grand.

• 17:03Chuck Nice?

  Oh my God, that's amazing.

• 17:05Speaker 02

  If they surface.

• 17:06Chuck Nice?

  If they surface.

• 17:07Gary O'Reilly?

  Someone's waiting for it to go to half a mil. Trust me. There's an agent involved and they're waiting to go to half a mil before they surface.

• 17:14Speaker 02

  Somebody, somebody has them. Some equipment manager, some ball boy, some.

• 17:19Chuck Nice?

  Oh yeah. Somebody got them.

• 17:21Speaker 02

  Somebody has them.

• 17:22Gary O'Reilly?

  I can't let you go from this show without saying, how do you redesign that shoe for that athlete?

• 17:31Speaker 02

  Oh my god.

• 17:32Gary O'Reilly?

  I know, easy questions first, huh?

• 17:35Speaker 02

  Yeah, there is a way. So, you know, there is, it's hard to talk through, but there is a way visually to create a more structurally sound product in this precise area where he blew out his shoes.

• 17:48Gary O'Reilly?

  Sweet.

• 17:48Speaker 02

  If you, if you're familiar with sneakers, sneakers have a top and a bottom, right?

• 17:52Gary O'Reilly?

  I'm good with that.

• 17:53Speaker 02

  There's a, there's a specific Nike technology called Foamposite that allows the, the side of the midsoles to wrap up higher, up on the upper.

• 18:04Gary O'Reilly?

  Yep.

• 18:04Speaker 02

  That would actually would have resolved that issue. That would have never happened if, if that was in there.

• 18:09Gary O'Reilly?

  So you're gonna, it's a hu, it's a wrap around of the sole over the upper, but more so.

• 18:15Chuck Nice?

  Right.

• 18:15Speaker 02

  Yeah, it wraps up sides a bit more.

• 18:18Chuck Nice?

  Yeah, so it a, a, it actually becomes like a reinforcement of that area right there.

• 18:22Speaker 02

  Absolutely.

• 18:23Chuck Nice?

  Yeah, super cool.

• 18:24Speaker 02

  It almost becomes like a, it's like this, it's a bit of a cradle.

• 18:28Chuck Nice?

  Right.

• 18:28Speaker 02

  It cradles the, the foot.

• 18:30Gary O'Reilly?

  Before we thank Wayne.

• 18:31Chuck Nice?

  Yeah.

• 18:31Gary O'Reilly?

  How many of your students are now placed in design houses for brands and doing what you taught them to do?

• 18:38Chuck Nice?

  Wait, let me guess, let me take a guess, let me take a guess, I'm gonna take a guess. I'm gonna go 90% placement.

• 18:45Speaker 02

  So we have over 400, close to 500 kids working professionally in, in the last nine years. So we narrow all of the top brands.

• 18:53Chuck Nice?

  Bam.

• 18:54Speaker 02

  And if, if, if it wasn't working, all the brands wouldn't be working with us.

• 18:58Chuck Nice?

  There you go.

• 18:59Speaker 02

  That's the way I see it.

• 18:59Chuck Nice?

  There you go.

• 19:00Speaker 02

  We're part of our results.

• 19:02Chuck Nice?

  Yeah. And by the way, what you just described is, uh, applied learning in an immersive environment. And, uh, it is, it is one of the most effective ways of, of bringing about, um, learning for anyone who is truly interested in something. Uh, it is also part of, in Europe, uh, what they have are apprenticeships.

• 19:24Gary O'Reilly?

  Yeah.

• 19:24Chuck Nice?

  And, uh, so your apprenticeship.

• 19:26Gary O'Reilly?

  On the job training.

• 19:27Chuck Nice?

  On the job training. Your apprentice, your apprenticeship allows you to learn exactly what it is you're going to be doing in the environment in which you will be working and is highly effective. Uh, so, you know, congratulations to you. To bringing something that works so well to the shores of America. And I can only hope that there are other institutions such as yourself that will, that will see this and, and, and, and kind of adopt it because it is highly effective. And when you want to talk about creating an economy where people are able to flourish, that is, that is one of the ways that you can do it. So kudos to you. Thank you very much.

• 20:03Gary O'Reilly?

  No, and, and thank you for the Penn Soul Academy. It is a fabulous project.

• 20:09Chuck Nice?

  Yeah. And can I get in? Can I get in? Can I send you a sketch?

• 20:12Gary O'Reilly?

  No.

• 20:12Chuck Nice?

  Can I send you a sketch, Dwayne?

• 20:13Gary O'Reilly?

  It's going straight in the trash. It's going straight in the trash.

• 20:19Chuck Nice?

  Absolutely.

• 20:20Gary O'Reilly?

  Yeah, slam dunk it.

• 20:22Chuck Nice?

  Hey, Dwayne, thanks so much, man.

• 20:23Gary O'Reilly?

  Thank you, sir.

• 20:24Chuck Nice?

  Great talking to you.

• 20:25Gary O'Reilly?

  All right, Chuck. Thank you. We are going to take a break.

• 20:28Chuck Nice?

  All right, let's take a break.

• 20:29Gary O'Reilly?

  Let's do that break. When we come back, Federico Maccapani, yes, at Embroidered will be with us live in the studio. Do not go away.

• 20:42Chuck Nice?

  One of our most popular segments on StarTalk is Cosmic Queries. You ask the questions and Neil and our science experts answer them. How do you submit a query? Follow StarTalk on Facebook, Twitter, Instagram and YouTube, and look out for calls for queries based around a specific topic. We post a call for questions every time we need them for a new episode. You can also submit a question at any time at starrtalkradio.net queries. If you want a better chance of getting your question asked, you can support StarTalk on Patreon. We prioritize questions from our patrons. Thanks for being the best and most curious fans in the universe.

• 21:27Gary O'Reilly?

  Welcome back to Playing with Science. What a fabulous conversation with Dwayne Edwards. And we're about to have another fabulous conversation. And he's here with us in the studio.

• 21:37Chuck Nice?

  In studio.

• 21:38Gary O'Reilly?

  Federico Maccapani, you may know him better as Embroidered. He has been described as a Dr. Frankenstein of sneaker design. Now, I don't know if he's happy with that, but we're going to find out. Federico, welcome to Playing with Science.

• 21:50Speaker 03

  Thank you so much and thank you for having me. I appreciate it.

• 21:53Chuck Nice?

  Absolutely, man.

• 21:54Gary O'Reilly?

  Comes from our side. So your inspiration comes from where?

• 21:59Speaker 03

  Well, from a lot of different things in life, but I guess I look a lot at nature as the highest form of inspiration for me because, you know, everything in nature is the way it is because of a series of evolution that led us to this moment of time. And so for me, looking at nature as really like the best thing, the most functional, you know, animals and plants where you can only survive only if, you know, you are the apex of, you know, your category. And so there is a lot of beautiful things from, you know, colors, forms, shapes, you know, it's really amazing.

• 22:42Gary O'Reilly?

  I think it's fabulous you see it like that because we've only ever thought of sneaker footwear as function, I run, I jump, I throw, or whatever, I kick.

• 22:51Chuck Nice?

  Right.

• 22:52Gary O'Reilly?

  And what color do you want? And it doesn't seem to go beyond that, but you've elevated that whole thing by bringing a totally fresh concept to it. Like I said, the Dr. Frankenstein thing.

• 23:04Speaker 03

  The way I work is we have to solve problems and that starts as the beginning, you know?

• 23:10Chuck Nice?

  Look at that.

• 23:11Speaker 03

  Yeah, we actually, there is a lot of science involved in, you know, sneaker design.

• 23:16Chuck Nice?

  Absolutely.

• 23:17Gary O'Reilly?

  And you're a big friend of Dwayne Edwards and it's funny.

• 23:21Chuck Nice?

  We just had him on and he said the exact same thing you just said.

• 23:24Gary O'Reilly?

  Yeah, it's like you had a conference call.

• 23:26Chuck Nice?

  It's like you guys were talking before this. So I'm interested, you know, I'm looking at your, so I look at your Instagram and your Instagram is pretty dope, man. You have so much cool stuff on there, like a design. And they're all your designs, right?

• 23:40Speaker 03

  I mean, no, I mean.

• 23:41Chuck Nice?

  Or are these just the things that you like? Is that?

• 23:43Speaker 03

  Those are all my shoes.

• 23:45Chuck Nice?

  Okay, those are all your shoes. Okay, that's what I thought.

• 23:47Speaker 03

  I love shoes, I collect shoes, I wear shoes, you know, so, you know, that's what really like, my Instagram is the representation of what goes through my head.

• 23:56Chuck Nice?

  Right. So here's what I want to ask you because as I look at all these different shapes and constructions and the composites that are used.

• 24:08Chuck Nice?

  Talk about form following function. How does it work? Are you working with engineers at the company? And then they tell you like, okay, here's what this shoe is going to do. I mean, in all design, it always comes down to you have a vision, but then you're limited by the real world application of whatever it is that you're designing. So how does that work when it comes to your shoe design?

• 24:33Speaker 03

  Well, you know, we have a lot of different teams. Where we have sport science, we have marketing, we have development, we have design. So all these teams work together to create a product. It's not definitely one man job. You know, nothing would happen if it was just for designers or just for developers. It's truly the collaboration between all these things.

• 24:57Chuck Nice?

  Wow.

• 24:57Speaker 03

  And, you know, actually, you know, when you work and create shoes, especially for athletes, you start from the insights, how they play, why they do certain movements, looking at their biomechanical movements and understanding the force that they put into the shoes, the directions. So there is a lot of like data involved in design. Especially nowadays, we have a lot of way to capturing data. And there's never been like that, you know, up until now. So the way I approach it is I take this data as like my ingredients and I need to use them in order to, you know, bake the cake.

• 25:36Chuck Nice?

  Right, got you. So all this data becomes your little cake batter.

• 25:40Speaker 03

  Kind of, yeah.

• 25:40Chuck Nice?

  Right, and so then, so what is the last part? Is it aesthetics? Or do you ever start with like, man, this is gonna be the coolest looking shoe ever? And then try to reverse?

• 25:53Speaker 03

  Well, you know, before I was working in this industry, I was approaching things in, I like them, I like the way they look. But when you start working at a professional level, you start to understand that the first thing that is matter the most is the function. They need to perform and they need to make the athlete better.

• 26:12Chuck Nice?

  Yeah.

• 26:12Speaker 03

  If you're making a shoe that doesn't make the athlete better compared to the one before, it didn't work out right.

• 26:18Chuck Nice?

  So it's truly form following function?

• 26:22Speaker 03

  Yeah, uh, yeah, definitely, you know, but again, I love also like beautiful products. And for me, it really needs to be a balance between making them work perfectly, but also making them look beautiful. Because at the end, you know, like especially kids now with social media, we are bombarded by visual information constantly.

• 26:42Chuck Nice?

  Right.

• 26:43Speaker 03

  And when they're scrolling on the explore page, you have like three seconds to get their attention, to click the photo, open it up. And they are understanding if they wanna try it on or not in those three seconds.

• 26:55Chuck Nice?

  Right.

• 26:55Speaker 03

  And that it's, you know, based on look, let's say, because that really is what takes, gets your attention. If then, you know, that look is amazing, then you wanna try them on. And if you get them for the feel, you won.

• 27:10Chuck Nice?

  Got you.

• 27:10Gary O'Reilly?

  So go back to say, you know, there's a lot of science involved in, in sneaker design and, and, and construction. What science are you embracing right now and what science could we possibly see in the future?

• 27:23Speaker 03

  Technology evolves every day. Like three years ago, what we do today wouldn't be possible. Um, you know, like there is so much about computational design and that it's really influencing the way we design sneakers. Before there were a lot of like sketching, but now it's kind of, we have this data, we have this machine that can generate the design. Based on the data that we implement. So it's all based on algorithm that is truly like mathem- super mathematical, you know? And I believe the future for designers will be kind of like selecting which design the machine provides you. Because we as humans, we have feelings the machine don't have, you know?

• 28:06Speaker 03

  Machine can, can do everything perfect.

• 28:10Gary O'Reilly?

  Are we talking AI-designed footwear?

• 28:13Speaker 03

  Kind of.

• 28:13Chuck Nice?

  Kind of, yeah. So I mean, it's not true AI, but in a way it is because the algorithm is kind of making the selection in terms of what will be the output. But then I love what-

• 28:23Gary O'Reilly?

  Machine, machine learning algorithms.

• 28:25Chuck Nice?

  Yeah, but what I love what you're saying though is, and maybe one day this will not be the case, you know? Maybe one day, machines won't have emotions. But what they'll be able to do is accurately depict what emotions are elicited by looking at something. But what I like about what you said right here is that uh uh what you have to do now is have the eye of design in order to look at that and say, no, this is truly aesthetically something that we would want to make. As opposed to this, which actually uh lives up to the functionality. But you know, it's it's an ugly piece of crap. So take that, computer. No, I'm joking. Right, right?

• 29:08Speaker 03

  No, yeah, for sure. Uh, you know, like, it's truly the collaboration between man and machine.

• 29:13Chuck Nice?

  Right.

• 29:14Speaker 03

  Without without a collaboration, there will be just humans and machine doing their own things. But it's when these two worlds collide, that's where really the magic happens.

• 29:23Chuck Nice?

  Nice.

• 29:23Gary O'Reilly?

  So let's look, let's focus on the sort of Predator Harden.

• 29:28Chuck Nice?

  Yes.

• 29:29Gary O'Reilly?

  Hybrid that you came out with. The Predator is a soccer boot, a football boot, cleat, whichever way you perform. And the Harden is a basketball shoe. Now, this is the Frankenstein part of of design for you. Now, I know the soccer shoe because it's a Predator. And that Predator is built with rubberized paneling that en enables more traction on the ball.

• 29:53Chuck Nice?

  When you when you kick it.

• 29:54Gary O'Reilly?

  Yeah, so I'm bending it like Beckham.

• 29:56Speaker 03

  This word.

• 29:57Gary O'Reilly?

  Yes, this word. And then the Harden.

• 29:58Chuck Nice?

  Puts more spin on the ball to create a a a more dramatic Magnus effect.

• 30:03Gary O'Reilly?

  There you go. There's our science. So

• 30:08Gary O'Reilly?

  what on earth drew you to produce something like that?

• 30:12Chuck Nice?

  Dude, it's uh and by the way, if

• 30:14Gary O'Reilly?

  It's cool.

• 30:14Chuck Nice?

  If you take a second, just look up Harden Predator. It is now, and I'm gonna tell you this, Federico, and I'm not blowing smoke, okay? Uh, I'm not a sneaker head, okay? As a matter of fact, you see what I'm wearing? I'm wearing Chucks, because that's my name, and that's about as deep in the game as I'm gonna get. These things are so cool looking that when I saw them, I was like, oh my. Like, I actually had that sneaker head reaction, like, oh my god.

• 30:43Speaker 03

  They look, they look kind of crazy, you know, the it all started that. I love the Predator franchise. Uh, I love the colors, black, red, and white. You know, they are iconic for Adidas football.

• 30:53Gary O'Reilly?

  Yes.

• 30:53Speaker 03

  The thing is, I couldn't wear cleats on the street.

• 30:56Chuck Nice?

  So let me ask you about this design, though, because, I mean, we know that you took it from the side. Is there, is there any racing inspired? Because it looks like it's moving when it's sitting still. Oh wait, do you have it?

• 31:08Speaker 03

  Yeah, yeah.

• 31:08Chuck Nice?

  Oh, he's going into his bag right now. He's gonna take the shoe out. That's pretty awesome.

• 31:13Speaker 03

  And also, this is a, this is a custom. So this shoe doesn't really exist.

• 31:18Chuck Nice?

  The shoe you're about to show us doesn't really exist?

• 31:20Speaker 03

  Yeah, you know, it doesn't exist. It's not an official shoe.

• 31:23Chuck Nice?

  Exclusive!

• 31:25Gary O'Reilly?

  You're messing with Chuck's mind.

• 31:26Chuck Nice?

  We got an exclusive!

• 31:28Gary O'Reilly?

  Don't show him something that doesn't exist. You'll blow his head away.

• 31:30Chuck Nice?

  Oh my god, this, look at this thing. This thing is so cool, man. And I am not, I'm not a person who gets excited about sneakers. But when you look at it, look at that. It's beautiful. It looks like sports and sex at the same time. You are Italian. Yo, man, this is amazing.

• 31:49Gary O'Reilly?

  Give it, give it back. Otherwise, you'll take it to dinner.

• 31:53Chuck Nice?

  Well, and you know what? There's a certain asymmetry that actually, that, that, that adds to not only aesthetic, but also makes it look like it's in motion. I mean, you're really fancy.

• 32:02Gary O'Reilly?

  I mean, this, this is iconic as a design, as a predator design, as the, as the boot. I mean, I grew up with Adidas. And I, I mean, I've worn them. I've, I've been sponsored by them, all sorts of things. The knot in the laces is a soccer player's guaranteed excuse.

• 32:18Chuck Nice?

  Really?

• 32:19Gary O'Reilly?

  Yeah, cuz, oh, it must've hit the knot.

• 32:21Chuck Nice?

  Hit the knot!

• 32:22Gary O'Reilly?

  Right, so that's, that's why it's in the stand.

• 32:24Chuck Nice?

  Wow.

• 32:24Gary O'Reilly?

  So now, function and form. This is here, the Velcro is there to keep it there. This now gives a more uniform surface over the in, the, the instep of the foot.

• 32:35Chuck Nice?

  Right.

• 32:35Gary O'Reilly?

  And therefore, you've got a plain surface.

• 32:37Chuck Nice?

  Now, it's not the knot!

• 32:39Gary O'Reilly?

  There you go.

• 32:40Chuck Nice?

  It's not the knot!

• 32:41Gary O'Reilly?

  You've just taken away a soccer player's excuse.

• 32:43Chuck Nice?

  So cool, man.

• 32:45Gary O'Reilly?

  Myth busting, myth busting.

• 32:46Chuck Nice?

  Myth busting, this is so cool.

• 32:48Speaker 03

  And this shoe is from 2000.

• 32:50Gary O'Reilly?

  Yeah.

• 32:50Speaker 03

  So I took, I took actually a vintage pair that I actually found on eBay.

• 32:54Gary O'Reilly?

  What I, what I'm laughing about is 2000 is now vintage.

• 32:57Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 32:58Chuck Nice?

  Well, yeah.

• 32:59Gary O'Reilly?

  How old am I?

• 33:00Speaker 03

  When, when you get two words that have nothing to do with each other collide, you create really something that is super interesting that before you wouldn't have even thought.

• 33:09Chuck Nice?

  Right.

• 33:10Speaker 03

  So, you know, like a... Three or four years ago, I started putting my ideas out on Instagram because I was putting them out with an hashtag that was hashtag what if. Because I was a fan back then of just sneakers and kind of I wanted to see what wasn't available. And because I knew how to use Photoshop and Illustrator, I said, okay, I'm just gonna do it and put my ideas out and eventually these ideas reached blogs, websites, designers, and then eventually led me to where I am today. Favorite sneakers right now? Right now? Right here, right now.

• 33:46Chuck Nice?

  There has to be Adidas, right?

• 33:48Speaker 03

  Of course.

• 33:48Chuck Nice?

  Yes.

• 33:49Speaker 03

  Thank you. Um, favorite new sneaker or favorite sneakers ever? Ever.

• 33:56Chuck Nice?

  Ever.

• 33:56Speaker 03

  Ever. Let me go teenage on this, ever. Right now, it has to be the Adidas Carbon 4D, which is the one that has been designed with the, you know, 3D printed technology that has been made in partnership with Carbon, which is a company based in California. Alright. And it's a tech company, actually, and you know, the beauty of this is that the collaboration that comes from two worlds that completely have nothing to do with each other. And, you know, when the shoe came out, it really inspired me a lot because, you know, one day potentially we can have shoes that are custom made for everybody. You walk into a store, you scan your feet, and you know.

• 34:37Chuck Nice?

  And then they'll print out for you right there on the spot?

• 34:39Speaker 03

  Yeah, that's right.

• 34:40Chuck Nice?

  Yeah, that'd be it. So the Carbon 4D is just a tremendous looking shoe. And so what part of this is printed or is the entire shoe printed?

• 34:52Speaker 03

  In this case, the sole is printed.

• 34:54Chuck Nice?

  It's the sole that's printed, okay.

• 34:55Speaker 03

  The midsole.

• 34:56Chuck Nice?

  The midsole, okay, I got you, that makes sense. Alright, cool, go ahead.

• 35:00Speaker 03

  My favorite shoe? Historic.

• 35:01Chuck Nice?

  Yeah.

• 35:02Speaker 03

  Historic, I would say really, the Predator Accelerator, like which is the model before the one I show you. It's so beautiful for me and you know, I don't know, like it has everything.

• 35:16Gary O'Reilly?

  Hey, you see shoes got to touch the soul. I know you're Italian and that's, it's a different. But for me, I go back to the original, the seventies. It's the royal blue, white stripes Adidas Gazelle.

• 35:30Speaker 03

  Yeah, classic.

• 35:31Gary O'Reilly?

  But with the soul is very different because it's got that sort of hexagonal pattern, but it's very spongy. This is before all of the energy capsules and energy returns.

• 35:41Speaker 03

  Yeah, it was die cut form back then.

• 35:43Gary O'Reilly?

  Yeah.

• 35:43Chuck Nice?

  And for me, it would be the Christian Louboutin classic peak toe.

• 35:48Gary O'Reilly?

  Yeah, absolutely.

• 35:49Chuck Nice?

  Yes, in a six inch heel.

• 35:51Gary O'Reilly?

  Uh huh. Size 12.

• 35:53Chuck Nice?

  No, no, you just ruined it. You just, no. No.

• 36:03Gary O'Reilly?

  Look, Federico, what a pleasure.

• 36:05Chuck Nice?

  Federico, what a pleasure to have you, man.

• 36:07Speaker 03

  Thank you so much.

• 36:07Gary O'Reilly?

  We must come and visit you at the lab over in Brooklyn and record some footage. That'd be cool. In the studio with us, Federico Maccapani at Embroidered.

• 36:20Chuck Nice?

  That's right.

• 36:20Gary O'Reilly?

  AKA Dr. Frankenstein.

• 36:23Chuck Nice?

  Grazie amico.

• 36:23Speaker 03

  Thank you so much.

• 36:25Gary O'Reilly?

  Thank you so much. Right, we're gonna take that break. When we come back, fashionista, sneaker guru and a great interview. Ezra Wine will be with us. That break now. Ezra on the other side.

• 36:43Gary O'Reilly?

  So Chuck, fashion designer and archivist Ezra Wine. Now, we have to know what it really means on the street. So there's only one person to go to.

• 36:55Chuck Nice?

  Yeah.

• 36:55Gary O'Reilly?

  This is our guy. Ezra Wine, welcome to Play With Science, sir.

• 36:59Speaker 04

  What's up? Good to be here. Thanks for having me.

• 37:01Chuck Nice?

  Yeah, without a doubt, man. So you're in the fashion world originally from taking the stuff that you loved.

• 37:09Speaker 04

  Yes.

• 37:10Chuck Nice?

  And kind of remixing. Like you're like the puffy of fashion. Before there was any remixing, you were remixing fashion.

• 37:20Speaker 04

  Yes, I definitely feel that way. I'm glad you said it that way. I, Dapper Dan has always been like a big influence of mine, growing up. Just seeing what he was creating, kind of taking luxury labels, whether he was cutting and sewing old fabric. And remaking these Louis Vuitton, Gucci pieces, and he was so influential at the time. Yeah, so I feel like that was always a big, uh, big influence on me.

• 37:44Gary O'Reilly?

  If you can just give us a brief history lesson of why we're at the place we are right now with regard sneakers and what has been the journey?

• 37:54Speaker 04

  Yeah, it's a very complicated journey, a journey that I love to think about and, and talk to my friends about. Um, I think it's about art. I think it's about supply and demand. I think it's about, uh, I think it's about cultures forming. Uh, I think it's about, and, and again, back to the art side of it. I think it's about this, these products that were created, uh, that certain individuals like Michael Jordan wore and kind of popularized. And then, um, it's about how people wanted this art and, and people sought after these pieces. There was a status symbol. There was, um, risk involved with like, you know,

• 38:36Speaker 04

  people getting robbed for their sneakers and, and all of these things while the majority of the country might have thought of this as like, oh, don't buy those for your kids. Like, that's only gonna be trouble. There's always this percentage of, of people in America that like, think this is controversial, this is exciting, uh. I gotta have it. Gotta have it. This is, this is like in the news. This is in the, this is in the crime part of this, part of the newspaper and it's in the fashion part of the paper and it's in the sports section.

• 39:03Gary O'Reilly?

  So is it, is it true?

• 39:04Speaker 04

  That's funny.

• 39:05Gary O'Reilly?

  Is it true? You, you two, you guys can bear this out. I heard, I read this on the other side of the Atlantic years and years ago.

• 39:12Speaker 04

  Mm-hmm.

• 39:12Gary O'Reilly?

  That Nike would judge the success of their new release on the number of times a sports store would get a smash and grab.

• 39:22Speaker 04

  I could see that being the case. Definitely in the eighties.

• 39:25Gary O'Reilly?

  Yeah.

• 39:26Speaker 04

  If it, you know, that, that sometimes that's how popularity is, uh.

• 39:29Gary O'Reilly?

  That was, that was there before we've had all of this data acquisition. That was their way to understand whether this shoe was gonna work or whether or not they gotta move on and design something else.

• 39:42Speaker 04

  And yeah, I mean, I think the other big part of the story is, and not to jump ahead to like the whole Jordan one story, but. You know, it's a shoe at a time when the league is, it's, it's a diverse league in 1984 when Jordan enters, you know, black players, white players. But dress code wise, everybody's wearing white sneakers.

• 40:04Gary O'Reilly?

  Yeah.

• 40:04Speaker 04

  And it's, when Nike made this black and red sneaker, Peter Moore, who I believe is the original designer for the Jordan one, when they created this, this was like a shock to the world. It's like, black and red, this is the devil's colors. This is, this is like gang, this is a gang look. And, and these were all the things that were said. And then the fines came in and, you know, the NBA said, well, this goes against our dress code policy.

• 40:32Gary O'Reilly?

  But you were involved in this story. Once the fines come in, were you not, you then brought your own take to this whole thing?

• 40:41Speaker 04

  Yeah, I mean, perfectly honest, my, my own experiences, a number of years later, you know, I wasn't, you know, I was not making clothes in 1984.

• 40:51Gary O'Reilly?

  No, okay.

• 40:52Speaker 04

  But so for me, it was more of a 10 years later, when I, when all these books start coming out on Jordan and books on sneakers and kind of telling the story. And, and one of the most exciting stories that I was learning about at the time was, was the story that this went against the league policy and the NBA said, you know, it's $300 a game. Like you can't wear these and we're fining you. And then it goes up to, over the course of the season, it turns into a $5,000 fine per game.

• 41:24Chuck Nice?

  So every time Michael Jordan steps onto the court?

• 41:26Speaker 04

  Yes.

• 41:27Chuck Nice?

  The NBA is saying, we are now, we're going to censure you $5,000. Cause we told you, you can't wear those sneakers. Now they're damn sure not going to tell him he can't play, cause he's the most exciting player in the league.

• 41:39Speaker 04

  Right.

• 41:39Chuck Nice?

  So they can't say that. Plus, plus the NBA, like the commissioner doesn't have the power to actually sit a player. Only a coach and a GM can do that.

• 41:50Speaker 04

  Right.

• 41:50Chuck Nice?

  So they're like, all right, what do we, what can we do? We gotta pay, you gotta pay $5,000.

• 41:55Gary O'Reilly?

  So is Michael putting his hand in his pocket and pulling out 5K every game? Or did someone intervene?

• 42:00Speaker 04

  The story is that Nike paid all the fines, that this was all marketing hype and Nike.

• 42:05Gary O'Reilly?

  How many shoes were they selling? If they could, how many games in a season, 180?

• 42:11Speaker 04

  No, 82 games in an NBA season.

• 42:13Gary O'Reilly?

  All right, that's baseball.

• 42:15Chuck Nice?

  Baseball, yeah.

• 42:15Gary O'Reilly?

  Eighty, eighty, eighty games, right? Five thousand to go.

• 42:19Chuck Nice?

  Eight times five, forty. So that's not bad. Not if you're Nike.

• 42:23Speaker 04

  Yeah, exactly.

• 42:23Chuck Nice?

  Actually, that's, that's kind of smart.

• 42:26Speaker 04

  But this is, but this is also nineteen eighty-four. It's like, Michael Jordan's a rookie. He's not guaranteed to be, you know, this world icon.

• 42:33Chuck Nice?

  It's a big gamble.

• 42:33Speaker 04

  And, and, and in the movie Just for Kicks, the documentary film Just for Kicks that I love to watch, they also talk about this a lot where Nike, uh, this, this was, this was like a, a roll of the dice for Nike because they had some money, they signed Jordan, but they weren't this like, according to the film at least, they're saying in nineteen eighty-four, nineteen eighty-five, that Nike is not this like powerhouse. And this was kind of like a roll of the dice where it's like, if it works, they become, you know, cultural icons.

• 43:00Gary O'Reilly?

  The thing, the thing about the big sports brands, because I've done some of this myself in the UK for Adidas and a little bit with Nike, talent identification of the, the young players.

• 43:09Speaker 04

  Mm-hmm.

• 43:10Gary O'Reilly?

  And we will sit down and go through a list of talent. And we, we will then be asked. When I was at Adidas, I was asked, will this player not just become a top domestic player? Will he go on to be a top-ranked international player? And we had to call it. And I'm looking at people saying, he's fourteen. Because of my background, that's function.

• 43:32Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 43:32Gary O'Reilly?

  This shoe, this boot, whatever it is I've got on my feet, has to have a functionality. If it doesn't give me that, it's out the window. And I don't care which floor I'm on, they're going out the window. So then you talk about it being a work of art. And I'm looking at it and thinking, you know what? There is a part of that, you think, oh, man, I look good in these.

• 43:53Chuck Nice?

  That's a function.

• 43:54Gary O'Reilly?

  Yeah.

• 43:54Chuck Nice?

  Yeah. That's a function to a lot of people.

• 43:56Gary O'Reilly?

  But that's, that's on a mental level. This is, this is taking the design of a shoe off of the physicality and popping it straight into your head.

• 44:04Chuck Nice?

  The function is to not have somebody walk up to you and go, what are those?

• 44:09Speaker 04

  Right.

• 44:12Chuck Nice?

  That's a function.

• 44:15Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 44:15Chuck Nice?

  So how do these shoes become so valuable? So you said on the resale market, is that because are the sneaker companies aware that these shoes now are sought after? And they stop production because I would think like if they're if they keep making them, they can't continue to be valuable. I just wait for them to make some more. I'll go get them. The only way they can be valuable is that there's scarcity.

• 44:40Speaker 04

  Yes.

• 44:40Chuck Nice?

  So how do they create that scarcity?

• 44:42Speaker 04

  Yeah, I think there's I I mean, it's it's definitely difficult to figure out what is going on in the Nike strategy world. But I think that they are just chasing lots of money and and from different like groups of people. And I think the general idea is, I I mean, the weird the weird thing is right now, there's like a sneaker probably that came out just today. If not like more than one just from Nike where like growing up in the eighties, it was like, oh, the Jordans are coming out once a year. You know, it's like everybody's waiting for that one, you know, February day when like there's actually like a new shoe on the shelf. Now it's like sneaker releases every day. But I think there's also a case of, and I'm glad you mentioned scarcity, it's like there's definitely a case of

• 45:26Speaker 04

  these are this is a cool design. It's a special colorway. Let's put a cool name behind it. And we're only making 200 pairs, even though we know that 40,000 people want these. And this becomes like

• 45:38Chuck Nice?

  I'm sorry.

• 45:38Speaker 04

  Something super special.

• 45:39Chuck Nice?

  Dude, so you said, I bet you there's a Nike sneaker that was released today, right? So I just went to the site and I just put in Nike sneaker released today. All right, here it is. Jordan one retro high Travis Scott, $880. Oh, my God. Is that per shoe or per pair? Like it makes a difference to me.

• 46:04Chuck Nice?

  Per shoe or per pair? So that's what they put out today. So this is basically a re-release because it's it's I I've seen this sneaker before. This is a classic Jordan back in the day look.

• 46:15Speaker 04

  Right.

• 46:15Chuck Nice?

  But I guess they're re-releasing this on a limited basis so that the people will pay 880 bucks for these sneakers. That's just genius. No.

• 46:27Gary O'Reilly?

  Daylight robbery.

• 46:29Speaker 04

  Well, I think.

• 46:30Gary O'Reilly?

  There goes my Nike endorsement.

• 46:32Speaker 04

  I mean, I think the other thing that's happening here is that it's like Nike will, it, it, it, they're creating this want where like everybody wants that shoe. It's this, you know, Travis Scott's behind it and there's a limited number of them and there's this crazy, you know, if you can get them at retail for two or 300 and you know that you can sell them for 800, this is like, this is a job for people, you know, to be able to make $500 a day, like reselling something. But I think what Nike is also doing right now is if you go to any Foot Locker, Foot Action Nike store nearby, there's also tons of other Jordans that are not $800, that are 100, 200, that did not sell out day one. And so there's just sort of this, there's a sort of wave of like, oh, if you want something that like looks like it, it's always available.

• 47:17Speaker 04

  Like, come on in, we have your Jordan 1, we have your Jordan 3s. But like, oh, you want this brown suede Mocha one from Travis Scott where we made it a very fancy box? Those you have to like really work for, sleep in front of our store, or spend $800. So, you know, they seem to be chasing money from multiple lanes.

• 47:36Gary O'Reilly?

  Let me ask you this question because you may know the answer.

• 47:41Gary O'Reilly?

  The shoes Michael Jordan would have worn on court.

• 47:44Speaker 04

  Right.

• 47:44Gary O'Reilly?

  Are they the ones, no, I'm not dropping $800 on a pair of sneakers?

• 47:48Speaker 04

  I'm not trying, I'm not paying $800 for Michael Jordan's actual sneakers.

• 47:52Gary O'Reilly?

  Would I be opening a Nike box and pulling out exactly the same shoe as Michael Jordan would have been wearing? Or am I getting something that looks like but isn't the same as?

• 48:02Speaker 04

  I'm gonna say it is the exact same product. That is what Nike says. And now with that said, the only asterisk to the story is that there are these items called PE, Player Exclusives. And that's, if you ever go to Flight Club or any of these resale stores, you will see like, you know, Ray Allen, when he played for the Celtics, was like sort of gifted from Nike some like, you know, Jordan doesn't usually make like a green Jordan. So like they would make like him a green Celtic sneaker and then like somehow.

• 48:35Speaker 04

  Maybe he gives them to a friend or a charity, like something happens. They wind up a flight club and now those are like the $2,000 sneaker. Um, and, and I hear that those can be a little different. Sometimes they'll like, yeah, they'll, they'll like handwrite numbers inside like.

• 48:48Chuck Nice?

  So the thing is you.

• 48:49Speaker 04

  But I've been told that it's the same.

• 48:50Chuck Nice?

  They make cappuccino.

• 48:52Speaker 04

  Yeah. Yeah, they're, they're like.

• 48:53Chuck Nice?

  That's, that's the Clooney.

• 48:56Chuck Nice?

  So we're, we're about out of time, but you have, what is the shirt that you have here?

• 49:00Speaker 04

  So this is a T-shirt that I designed in, in Photoshop many years ago. Uh, basically after loving the Air Jordan sneaker for many years. Definitely wanted to pay homage to Jordan and kind of tell the story that we were talking about earlier. As the text of the T-shirt reads, it's a Air Jordan number one, black and red, uh, print. And then the text, and this is from like a, a poster of like a page of a book. And it basically says $5,000 fine per game. And this is all related to the story that we were telling earlier, which is that in 84, when Jordan made, came into the league, uh, he was getting fined. So basically the, the card that I, that we wrote up.

• 49:43Chuck Nice?

  Has a little story on it.

• 49:44Speaker 04

  Has a little story. So, uh, I'll read it. In 1984, the National Basketball Association banned the Nike Air Jordan sneaker and fined rookie star Michael Jordan for wearing his signature sneakers. The league claimed the shoes went, went against dress code policy, stating the shoes did not have enough white in their design.

• 50:00Chuck Nice?

  Oh.

• 50:01Speaker 04

  At the beginning of the season, the fine was $300. By the end of the season, it was $5,000 fine per game. Nike paid every fine. This is all in the book, uh, in, in, in one of those Air Jordan books, talking about the history of the shoe and, uh, and, and the story's been going on and on. You can check it out in Bobbito's Where'd You Get Those book and, and, I mean, now there's tons of sneaker media.

• 50:24Chuck Nice?

  That's so funny. 1984 and the NBA is just like, the league is going black. We can't let the shoes do the same. Can you imagine? We need more white in these shoes and on the courts, damn it. Oh, Boston, where are you when we need you?

• 50:38Speaker 04

  Exactly.

• 50:39Chuck Nice?

  Do you think the NBA is sitting there thinking, why didn't we find him more? Hey, Ezra Wine, thank you, sir.

• 50:45Speaker 04

  Thank you guys for having me.

• 50:46Chuck Nice?

  What a pleasure.

• 50:46Gary O'Reilly?

  Great talking to you.

• 50:47Speaker 04

  This was fun.

• 50:47Chuck Nice?

  Yeah, a lot of fun, right? This has been Playing with Science. We look forward to your company very, very soon. Hey bud, come here. You could have listened to this episode with no ads. I tell you how. For five bucks a month, you can join StarTalk on Patreon and lose all the commercials. Learn more at patreon.com/starTalkRadio. But you didn't hear it from me.