Katie Couric on Truth, Trust, and Women's Health

From her groundbreaking televised colonoscopy to her breast cancer journey, Katie Couric has turned personal experience into powerful advocacy for the health issues medicine has overlooked. This week on unPaused, Dr. Mary Claire Haver sits down with Katie Couric, award-winning journalist, founder of Katie Couric Media, co-founder of Stand Up To Cancer, and author of the New York Times bestseller Going There. Katie spent 15 years co-hosting the Today Show, served as the first solo female anchor of CBS Evening News, and has interviewed nearly every president, world leader and cultural voice of the last four decades. Together, they explore Katie's journey from growing up in Arlington, Virginia, where her parents instilled the importance of education and financial independence, to breaking barriers in network news while navigating profound personal loss. Katie opens up about losing her husband Jay to stage four colon cancer when her daughters were six and two, how that tragedy launched her into cancer advocacy, and why she made the decision to have a colonoscopy on live television — a moment that changed screening rates across America and took the stigma out of a life-saving procedure. Guest links: Katie Couric Media https://katiecouric.com/ Katie Couric https://www.instagram.com/katiecouric/?hl=en (Instagram) Katie Couric https://www.tiktok.com/@katiecouric?lang=en (TikTok) Katie Couric https://www.facebook.com/katiecouric/ (Facebook) Katie Couric Media https://www.instagram.com/katiecouricmedia/?hl=en (Instagram) Katie Couric https://www.youtube.com/c/KatieCouric (YouTube) Katie Couric https://x.com/katiecouric (X) Katie Couric https://www.linkedin.com/in/katiecouric (LinkedIn) Katie Couric https://substack.com/@katiecouric (Substack) Next Question with Katie Couric https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/next-question-with-katie-couric/id1134154895 (Apple Podcasts) Books: "The Feminine Mistake: Are We Giving Up Too Much?," https://www.amazon.com/Feminine-Mistake-Are-Giving-Much/dp/1401303064 by Leslie Bennetts “The New Perimenopause,”⁠ https://thepauselife.com/pages/the-new-perimenopause-book by Dr. Mary Claire Haver ⁠"The New Menopause"⁠ https://www.amazon.com/New-Menopause-Navigating-Through-Hormonal/dp/059379625X/ref=sr_1_2?adgrpid=190238689390&dib=eyJ2IjoiMSJ9.djG88jtefTqLpTg36Li8QMNmXkpzLIfbFdY438Vro2vit_rKymy65UpF10hk_VTrxmazFUemwk7ywlmqHYY80j-V3LaeSD824-02PCtdlS8Fzp1XPcZs68nYHCL4V_ZdZBTJya---9Ng5PtKdOf-U3ENtuDXbDw68ULSk2wNk6Lt6mEhIPkuLM7FhztUzBJZ0wNBUQCSs6Pk1ZhoV2JDlzRapnMjnZgOq7PBA7Wy2KM._ZZSn21KJ43AyMvvSvI9_Hs3q74tpMBoCJ2zwi9enkc&dib_tag=se&hvadid=779626799212&hvdev=c&hvexpln=0&hvlocphy=9004331&hvnetw=g&hvocijid=16430100151400627515--&hvqmt=e&hvrand=16430100151400627515&hvtargid=kwd-2465259580440&hydadcr=15551_13558570_10211&keywords=perimenopause+book+mary+claire&mcid=ab159bad5384301d948e659e4b52f68d&qid=1774909744&sr=8-2 by Dr. Mary Claire Haver https://thepauselife.com/blogs/the-unpaused-podcast/katie-couric-on-truth-trust-and-womens-health

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  This episode contains references to child loss and death. Some listeners may find it distressing. Please listen with care and step away if you need to.

• 0:10Speaker 01

  What makes me mad is it's another example of the medical establishment ignoring a very specific issue that happens to women and not really focusing on it, not providing the research dollars, because everyone thinks about like Viagra, okay, men can't get it up, so they pour millions of dollars, they create this drug in a nanosecond, and yet women who are suffering, they're they're being ignored, and it really pisses me off.

• 0:48Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  The views and opinions expressed on UnPaused are those of the talent and guests alone, and are provided for informational and entertainment purposes only. No part of this podcast or any related materials are intended to be a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis, or treatment.

• 1:06Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  Today's guest is someone who has been a part of my life for a very long time, long before I ever imagined sitting across from her with a microphone. Like so many people of my generation, I grew up watching Katie Couric every morning on The Today Show. She was the anchor I trusted to help me understand the world. She was in our living rooms during moments that defined entire decades. Last year, I had the opportunity to meet Katie in person, write for her newsletter, and then join her on stage at one of her live events. Meeting and working with her confirmed what I had always sensed from afar. Katie's not simply an icon. She's a truth teller, a connector, a fierce advocate for cancer and women's health, and someone who cares deeply about using her platform for good.

• 1:49Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  Katie Couric is a journalist, author, producer, and now founder of Katie Couric Media. She spent 15 years as the co-host of The Today Show and served as the anchor of the CBS Evening News, and has interviewed nearly every president, world leader, public figure, scientist, and cultural voice of the last four decades. Her 2021 memoir, Going There, became an instant New York Times bestseller. She created and co-founded Stand Up to Cancer, which raised hundreds of millions of dollars for cancer research. She hosts the award-winning podcast, Next Question, with Katie Couric. And she continues to lead national conversations on everything from politics and

• 2:30Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  media literacy to cancer prevention, women's health, and the well-being of our democracy. What I admire most about her, though, is her ability to merge journalism with humanity. She has endured profound loss. She has reinvented herself repeatedly. She has used her grief to fuel advocacy, and she has remained curious and courageous in a media landscape that is more polarized and more punishing than ever. I'm deeply honored to welcome Katie Couric to UnPaused. This is a conversation about women's health, caregiving, and the power of reinvention. I'm Dr. Mary Claire Haver, a board-certified obstetrician and gynecologist and certified menopause practitioner. I'm also an adjunct professor of obstetrics and

• 3:14Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  gynecology at the University of Texas Medical Branch. Welcome to UnPaused, the podcast where we cut through the silence and talk about what it really takes for women to thrive in the second half of life. Buy smart, drive for less, and trade for more. That's Toyota affordability, and it all starts with a great deal from your local Toyota dealer. Make a smart buy on an all-wheel-drive Camry, Corolla Cross, or get a Corolla sedan, packed with the latest features, advanced tech, and head-turning style. Take a test drive in two of Toyota's most popular SUVs, the spacious, family-friendly Grand Highlander and adventure-ready RAV4. And with so many

• 3:55Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

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• 4:36Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  So Katie Couric, I still can't believe I'm saying that word. Like Katie Couric is on UnPaused. It's such a big deal for me, such an honor. So, thank you for being here.

• 4:43Speaker 01

  Well, I'm a huge fan, Mary Claire, so I'm very excited to be here and looking forward to talking about everything and anything.

• 4:50Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  First, let's like, give me, give me some backstory, because I don't know all this. Where did you grow up?

• 4:55Speaker 01

  I grew up in Arlington, Virginia, a pretty Leave It To Beaver household and neighborhood. You know, at night, we'd play Red Light, Green Light and Capture The Flag and ride our bikes from, from dawn till dusk.

• 5:10Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  Don't come home with the suns out.

• 5:11Speaker 01

  No, and, you know, I'm the youngest of four kids, went to public school my whole life, had a decidedly middle-class background, although my parents really focused on education. My dad was a newspaper reporter and then went into public relations. My mom, they met when she was a cartographer for Rand McNally and living in Chicago, and he was in the Navy. But my mom, like so many women of her generations, didn't work.

• 5:41Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  Cartographers, she drew maps.

• 5:42Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 5:43Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  Yeah. So I was a geologist undergrad.

• 5:45Speaker 01

  Oh, okay.

• 5:46Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  So I have a fair share of cartography skills.

• 5:48Speaker 01

  And she did layout for a magazine called Coronet, which I think was a precursor to Esquire magazine. My mom was very artistic and very clever. And my dad was extremely, my mom was smart too, but my dad was deeply intellectual, I think, and, and, and very, very well-read. And while he never made a lot of money, and, you know, we couldn't join a country club and all the things that more affluent families in my neighborhood did, although my neighborhood didn't have that many affluent families, I never wanted for anything.

• 6:28Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  Yeah.

• 6:28Speaker 01

  You know, I feel like I had such an incredible childhood, Mary Claire, and I feel it's because my parents...

• 6:37Speaker 01

  I never for one moment, and, and, and now as an adult, I realize that not everyone is this fortunate, but I never for a nanosecond doubted my parents' unconditional love.

• 6:50Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  That's amazing.

• 6:51Speaker 01

  And support. And my mom used to say, everybody needs a cheerleader and I'm yours.

• 6:56Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  Aww.

• 6:57Speaker 01

  So I think that has helped me so much. You know, you think about the foundation of your childhood and the things your parents equip you to handle, just by giving you that solid sort of reservoir of love. That I think it's helped me so much through both my successes, failures, my triumphs and disappointments, my heartache and my, you know, uh, finding love again. And all the ups and downs that I've experienced in my life, I really credit my parents giving me this solid foundation that has helped me navigate so many different things. And I always feel so bad when I hear

• 7:41Speaker 01

  of people who don't have access to good educations or, or solid sort of family bonds, but who have acrimonious or really difficult relationships with their, their parents.

• 7:57Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  A lot of estrangement.

• 7:58Speaker 01

  And I think, gosh, that is a, a tough way to go through life. And I think people obviously deal with it and, and, and, and compensate for it. But it's just much harder, I think. And, and now when I watch my daughter raise her son and my, my grandson, and I think, gosh, you, you just really have to, to, to, to love children and, and obviously give them boundaries too, but.

• 8:30Speaker 01

  Just how much is imprinted psychologically on us by our parents? And what an awesome responsibility that is.

• 8:40Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  Mm hmm. You went to university, college?

• 8:43Speaker 01

  I went to UVA.

• 8:44Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  UVA?

• 8:45Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 8:45Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  And were you a journalism?

• 8:46Speaker 01

  Well, they didn't really have a journalism department. So my dad had me talk to a number of people before I went to college because my father really kind of encouraged me to go into journalism because I was actually a pretty good writer all through junior high school and high school. I was a master procrastinator, so I think he thought I would work well under deadline.

• 9:08Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  Uh huh.

• 9:08Speaker 01

  Always extremely outgoing, always very curious. So my dad kind of encouraged me to work at different radio stations during the summers while I was at UVA. And before I went to college, I did talk to some people in journalism and they all told me, most of them said, you know, go somewhere, you get a very broad liberal arts education.

• 9:31Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  My parents, like, my mom went to college to meet a husband. She did secretarial science for two years.

• 9:36Speaker 01

  To get her MRS?

• 9:37Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  Yes, and she did. And, you know, that worked out for 60 something years and it was all fine. And it's fascinating to hear you talk about this because I love my parents, but you know, I think they, my dad was like, well, she's pretty, she'll marry well. Like, they weren't worried about me. I had good grades, I was a good student. But like, my dad never like sat me down and talked about my career future. He's just like, marry well, choose well.

• 9:58Speaker 01

  Yeah, well, I think that was very typical of that generation. My father maybe perhaps was a bit of an anomaly. And, you know, there were, I was the fourth kid and I had two older sisters and an older brother. And my dad, really, I think it was both my parents really wanting us to get good educations. That was, like, every time we got $5 from my grandmother, we put it in our college fund. You know, every time. We did anything, you know, if we worked in the summer, it all went into our college fund. So we were very oriented toward getting a good education. And my sisters both went to Smith College, which at the time was the seven sisters, one of the seven sisters,

• 10:43Speaker 01

  you know, Smith, Wellesley, Radcliffe, blah, blah, blah. And this was before women were admitted to Ivy League schools. So to go to a seven sister's school was sort of the the pinnacle for a young woman in my sisters era. And then they started letting in women to schools like Princeton, Harvard and Yale. But my grades weren't good enough to go to a school like that. And in fact, one of the earliest traumas for me was I got rejected from Smith. And Smith apparently loved sisters. My sister Emily was Phi Beta Kappa at Smith. You know, my, both my sisters had done well there. And I didn't even get waitlisted. You're like, they don't want me?

• 11:28Speaker 01

  Well, it was really, it was really hard. And I think part of it was I worked kind of hard in high school, but not that hard. My junior year, when I knew it was going to really count, I got all A's and was really focused. But I, I wasn't that academic in high school. And I ended up going to UVA. I was in state. It was a little easier for in-state people to get in than out of state people. Today, I don't think I'd even get into UVA. Like, would I go to medical school today? Because it is so, so, so competitive. But I ended up going to school, to be honest with you, that was, was much better suited for, for me and my personality. But I, I

• 12:11Speaker 01

  am just getting back to, to your earlier comment. I think, I think my parents,

• 12:18Speaker 01

  Really understood the importance of being financially independent as a woman and not necessarily, you know, just relying on your husband.

• 12:29Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  The lesson didn't come from mom and dad, but it was secondary because I

• 12:33Speaker 01

  Where did you get that lesson?

• 12:34Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  My aunts, who went through some horrific divorces and were basically left destitute. And I watched them move into public housing and like really scary situations. My cousins having to switch schools and live in these like scary apartments. And I was, I was like, uh-uh, you know, like that, that was what was like, you must make your own money. You can't rely on this. It was not coming from mom and dad, but it's just watching the experiences of my aunts.

• 13:01Speaker 01

  That's so interesting and thinking, I do not want that to happen to me.

• 13:06Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  Yeah, no.

• 13:06Speaker 01

  In fact, there was a very good book that I read when I was a young, younger, well, actually not that young. I think it was on the Today Show and I interviewed a woman, a writer named Leslie Bennetts. And she wrote a book called The Feminist Mistake, kind of a play on the feminist mystique. And it was all about women who had sublimated all their ambition, who had stopped working or never worked at all. And after a period of time, their husbands divorced them or left them, or sadly tragically passed away.

• 13:44Speaker 01

  And it was sort of about the importance of creating your own sense of purpose, your own financial independence. And that really, really stuck with me. I mean, it reinforced what I think my parents had ingrained in us, in their daughters anyway. And, and, and I feel bad because it's not to say raising a family and taking care of kids isn't a worthy thing to do, but it is.

• 14:14Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  It puts you in a vulnerable position.

• 14:16Speaker 01

  Yes, exactly.

• 14:17Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  That you may not, and that's the lesson I taught my daughters. And, you know, 20 years of OB-GYN practice, I would take care of these women through multiple life changes, right? You know, having kids, da-da-da, and inevitably some of them divorce and watching them tell stories of

• 14:32Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  I haven't worked in 15 years and you know, and I would go home and tell my girls these stories.

• 14:36Speaker 01

  Right.

• 14:37Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  Of, you know, this could happen. There's no guarantees. Your husband could get sick, lose his job, get a divorce, whatever. And like, what are you gonna do? You know?

• 14:45Speaker 01

  Right.

• 14:45Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  You've gotta have a way to support yourself, even if you choose to stay home, be a mom, you know, and that's amazing. But I'm just so driven by that, that fear of, you know, and I lived through my parents bankruptcy.

• 14:56Speaker 01

  Right, right.

• 14:57Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  You know, so I saw the war, you know, what, what at the time seemed like the worst thing that could happen. And I just didn't want that for my kids.

• 15:04Speaker 01

  And I also think it's just, you know, even if you do take time to raise children, it's, it's something that I think women need to think about, you know? I know so many of my friends and you hear stories of when, it's not just empty nest syndrome, it's just that what now? And I think the, the secret to a happy life really is to find, to have purpose. And some of that purpose can be your children. But I also think that there has to be, it's helpful to have more than just kind of wanting to raise good, successful

• 15:45Speaker 01

  kids. I think to, to kind of feel passionate about something, to care about something, to love what you do, to feel that you have, you can have an impact, small or large, is so important just to your self-esteem and, and to your, your identity.

• 16:06Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  For a long time, I, you know, was practicing and, and in a great institution, but I felt like I was on a treadmill. And I felt trapped. And that, you know, I had a great job, great money, great influence, but I always felt like I have to put on this costume every day and show up. And, and it's a machine that I've like, joined to have the financial security. And at this point in my life, I sit up in the morning with my cup of coffee and I look out and I live on the water, so I'm so blessed. And I look at the Gulf of Mexico and I'm like, I have choices.

• 16:39Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  I have options. This is, a lot of women don't have this.

• 16:42Speaker 01

  Uh huh.

• 16:43Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  Like, I can decide what I want to do with my day. And I feel like I'm the luckiest woman in the world.

• 16:48Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 16:48Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  You know, and so much of what I do is impacting the world and women and that's great. But I like, sit there and I'm like, if I just wanted to stay home, couple day, you know, like, that's okay. A lot of people don't have that.

• 17:00Speaker 01

  No.

• 17:00Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  You know?

• 17:01Speaker 01

  No.

• 17:01Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  And I didn't have that for a long time and that was hard, you know, not having choice.

• 17:06Speaker 01

  Right.

• 17:07Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  Like, when that alarm went off at 3:30 every morning, when you were, you know, doing the Today Show, did you ever feel like you were on that treadmill and you had to get up and perform every day?

• 17:16Speaker 01

  I loved it. I also felt like, you know, I was helping people understand the world, you know? I mean, I think I had this big audience and this big sort of community that I was a part of, that I could say, hey, I really think we need to do a story on X, Y, or Z. Um, I think, you know, so I had a lot of input editorially. Like, I controlled my own destiny. I would say, can I go do an interview on this? Can we do a fun series called Changing Places? I'll fill in for Jay Leno and he can fill in for me and, you know, everybody can kind of pick something that they've always wanted to do and do it.

• 18:00Speaker 01

  So I had a lot of input. But I think what's interesting for you, as you were talking, I was thinking, you know, you as a physician can have such an impact on your patients. But it is a limited stage. And to be able to use your expertise and your knowledge, and for as much as people shit on social media, and I think it is really, there are a lot of negative aspects to it.

• 18:25Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  Absolutely.

• 18:25Speaker 01

  The fact that it provides this entree of, and this, this, um, you know,

• 18:33Speaker 01

  Really national, if not international, stage where you can share important information that people are really hungry for.

• 18:44Speaker 01

  I think it's a really phenomenal thing. And, and that is why you have been able to build your company and, and serve people in a much more, you know, a much broader, more expansive way.

• 18:59Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  I mean, I'm doing the same thing I was doing across, instead of sitting across from Katie in an exam room with a time limit, you know? It's exact same conversation I'm having with my phone. You know, because when you're reporting on social, you're talking to your phone. There's no one there, you know, usually. Now, it goes out to millions of people, but it, I'm just repeating the exact same behavior I had in the exam room.

• 19:20Speaker 01

  Right. Which is, must be so incredibly gratifying to know that, and, and you think, you know, you mentioned time limits and you, you know, a lot of women don't have access to the best doctors, or they live in rural communities, or underserved communities, or they don't have insurance and, you know, so to be able to use someone like you as a resource is such a gift for so many people, you know? And so that must make you feel like a public servant, really.

• 19:50Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  It does. It really does. So, how did you end up as a journalist? So you go and you're, you're, you were an English major?

• 19:57Speaker 01

  Yeah, I majored in American Studies, so American Literature and History. And I, I learned how to write. I wrote for my school paper. During the summers, I was working at radio stations in Washington DC, because I grew up right outside of DC, in Arlington. And, you know, it seemed to be tailor-made for my personality and for the things I like to do and for my sort of insatiable curiosity. And so I just applied for a job at ABC News when I graduated from UVA. And I really pursued it aggressively.

• 20:37Speaker 01

  I got my mom, I write about this in my book, to drive her cream-colored Buick station wagon down to the Washington Bureau of ABC News. I said, "Mom, just wait for me here." You know, she's parked on DeSalle Street, I think it was. And I go into the building and I said, "Hi, may I talk to, to..." To Davey Newman, because I knew Davey Newman was the producer of World News Tonight. And Davey Newman's brothers, twin brothers, Steve and Eddie Newman, had gone to high school with my sister Kiki. And so I, they said, we can't just let you upstairs to the newsroom. So I, I, I saw a house phone and I called Davey. They said, you can use the phone if you want. And I said, great. I said, hi, Davey, this is Katie Couric.

• 21:21Speaker 01

  You don't know me, but your brother, Steve and Eddie, went to high school with my sister Kiki. And I was wondering if I could just come up and say hi. And, you know, my dad always said I had moxie, which is really what I wanted to name my, the book I wrote about my life and career, Moxie. But yes, and then ultimately, uh, Davey Newman, I'm sure he wanted to get rid of me, introduced me to the deputy bureau chief, Kevin Delaney, who hired entry level people called desk assistants, where basically you were a go for making coffee, xeroxing.

• 21:53Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  That's how you started.

• 21:54Speaker 01

  You know, fetching, you know, ham sandwiches for friends.

• 21:56Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  Just like I imagine.

• 21:57Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's how I started. And I just worked really hard and tried to learn and then went to CNN when that started. My friend Wendy Walker, who's still one of my closest friends in the world, was going over to CNN and she brought me with her. And at CNN, it was like a startup. So you could do all sorts of different things and it was a non-union shop. So I could even go out and do interviews and try my hand at on-air reporting. And it was so bad, the president of CNN called and said he never wanted to see me on the air again.

• 22:29Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  Oh, my God, you're not.

• 22:30Speaker 01

  Yeah. So I had to kind of fight and be scrappy every step of the way.

• 22:34Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  But how did you overcome that? Like?

• 22:36Speaker 01

  I was, I was like, wah, wah. Cause it was like my first big break. I was reporting from the White House and learning how to save Zipignu Brzezinski and practicing all night and talking to my air, my hairbrush like it was a microphone. You know, I just thought, okay, well, I sucked. And. How do you get better? You know, I believe Malcolm Gladwell's right, you know, 10,000 hours. And, uh, you know, I just looked around and I thought, these people are good. They're talented and smart, or they can write and be in front of a camera, but are they that much better than I am? No, they just have more experience. So I said, I'm just

• 23:21Speaker 01

  gonna try harder, do more. And then I worked, worked in local news in Miami after CNN, and then worked in local news in Washington. And that's where Tim Russert, who was the Washington bureau chief of NBC, saw me because we were in the same building as the network, the local news people. And he saw me, you know, chasing Marion Barry, the mayor of Washington DC, who had a lot of problems around. And he asked me to come down to his office and said, we have an opening as a deputy Pentagon correspondent. Do you think you could do that job? And I, you know, of course, I didn't think I could do that

• 24:03Speaker 01

  job. Inside, I was like, holy shit, I know nothing about the military, that this is gonna be a disaster. But I said, I said, you know, I don't have a military background, but I think I could do it. And, uh, he said, okay, well, let's, let's give it a try. And that got me my foot in the door at NBC, got me a, a job on a national

• 24:30Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  On air, yeah.

• 24:31Speaker 01

  network.

• 24:31Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  How old were you at that point?

• 24:32Speaker 01

  I had just gotten married, uh, to Jay. It was right before we got married because I remember I couldn't start until after our honeymoon. And I took all these Pentagon manuals with me on my honeymoon, our honeymoon, and was studying like the difference between an F-16 and an F-17 and an eight, and an A1A tank and, you know, all the different scrambled eggs that people wear on, what they call the ribbons and stuff on their uniforms. So I, I got married in 1989, and I was born in 1957. So I had just turned like 32. But I had spent my twenties really focused on work and really wanting to get

• 25:14Speaker 01

  to a position where if I did have children, and you know, women have to kind of navigate all this. At least I'd be in a position where I wasn't just starting. I, I thought, first of all, I hadn't met anyone. So I, I, I mean, I dated, but nobody who was really marriage material. And I, I really just wanted to have the flexibility to move. I didn't want to have to work with a, with a partner and say, I don't know, is this going to be good for you professionally? I was just free as a bird to really pursue my own personal ambitions.

• 25:55Speaker 01

  And then, you know, by the time I had a baby, I, and was pregnant with Ellie, I had gotten the job at the Today Show. So I had a very serendipitous journey professionally, but it was also backed up by the fact that I had worked really hard. And, um, but I was also, I think there was, for me, I probably less so in medicine, there was an element of luck because I think TV journalism, there's a, a, a subjective nature to it. And I was just kind of at the time, just what the doctor ordered at the Today Show. They had had a

• 26:37Speaker 01

  transition from Jane Pauli to Deborah Norville. The, the audience didn't really respond to Deborah Norville. And they kind of wanted to go back to someone who honestly was not as beautiful and perhaps threatening to a morning audience. So there I come along and I ended up, uh, being put in that position. And then it was kind of off to the races for me.

• 27:01Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  Yeah. So you did that for 15 years?

• 27:03Speaker 01

  Well, I did the Today Show for 15 years and then I became, uh, Les Moonves, who was head of CBS, brought me over to the CBS Evening News. And I did that for five years.

• 27:15Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  Were you the first female night time?

• 27:17Speaker 01

  I was the first solo. Uh, Barbara Walters and Harry Reasoner, I'm really dating myself, had done it at ABC News. And then Connie Chung had did it, had, had did it. Connie Chung did it for a nanosecond with Dan Rather at CBS, but I was the first person, woman, to be the solo anchor. In other words, there was no

• 27:38Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  No man.

• 27:39Speaker 01

  No man involved. And it was a big deal. Uh, At the time, and that was really one of the things that motivated me. I thought I wanted little girls and little boys to see a female could handle that job with confidence and competence. And, and that's really, and plus, you know, 15 years, as much as I loved my job at the Today Show, like any job, 15 years is a long time. And it started to feel a little repetitive. And I, I think I just wanted a new challenge. So that's why I went to CBS and ended up being

• 28:16Speaker 01

  a very challenging experience for me because CBS was quite old school, I think patriarchal. And I think the, between the internal kind of sexism and the external sexism of, of an audience not necessarily being ready for a female anchor in an evening news format, the most traditional audience. And then we, on top of that, tried to rejigger the format a bit, tried to make it a little more accessible and viewer friendly. It just was, it was a

• 28:54Speaker 01

  lot too much, too soon for an audience. And while I was very proud, Mary Claire, of the journalism I did on the Today Show, I did so many hard hitting, important interviews. I think because of the nature of the Today Show, people remembered me or identified me more with the fun, kind of softer, fluffier content. And so I think it felt a little bit incongruous for people to see me in a role that was 100% serious, that really didn't allow me to show my personality at all, which only kind of can be conveyed when

• 29:35Speaker 01

  you're interacting with a co-anchor, you're doing something fun. And I think it just, it just, I think, felt to a lot of viewers, what happened to her? Did she have a lobotomy? Like, she used to be fun and funny and friendly. And I think it was just kind of like a... A hard adjustment for people to make, me in this role. Looking back on it, I'm glad I did it, but I think for a lot of reasons, it was probably not the right decision.

• 30:08Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  So here's what I remember about, when I think about Katie Couric, like before I got to know you and, and you know, I didn't watch the mornings. I was in med school, I was in residency, I was, you know, delivering a baby at eight in the morning. You know, I remember, of course, you know, who you were, that you were cute and fun and stuff. But I remember having a, as a doctor, you know, having a colonoscopy on national TV. I remember when you got breast cancer and talked about it. I remember when your husband died and I remember you had two kids, two girls, because I had two girls.

• 30:40Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 30:41Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  And then Katie Couric Media.

• 30:42Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 30:43Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  So what made you say, I'm gonna do this, I'm gonna start my own company?

• 30:48Speaker 01

  Well, you know, I had done really most of the big jobs in network news, still to my surprise, honestly. That I was able to kind of reach the pinnacle of, of the industry after CBS. And after that really didn't go that well, I stuck with it for five years. I knew that I wanted to keep working. And at one point, I think I was asked if I wanted to go back to the Today Show, but by then I had sort of already committed to doing a syndicated talk show and an afternoon talk show.

• 31:31Speaker 01

  It turns out, I mean, they're great and, and there's so many people who are good at it. Obviously Oprah was the queen, but for me, it didn't allow me to really dig into.

• 31:46Speaker 01

  Important issues. I think afternoon talk shows are a little more infotainment. And, you know, it's funny, I'm such a dichotomy, actually, because I do have this very bubbly, outgoing personality. I mean, I think I've gotten less bubbly as I've gotten older. But Katie Couric media is hard hitting. Yeah, I'm actually a serious person underneath kind of my, my effusive bubbly personality. So a talk show wasn't kind of the best fit for me. So then I went to Yahoo because I saw

• 32:25Speaker 01

  the media landscape shifting from linear to digital. And then after Yahoo, never really realized fully, or never really became the digital behemoth I was hoping it would be in journalism. So here I was, I had done a documentary series for Nat Geo, I had done a couple of other documentaries. And I remember taking a walk with a good friend of mine, Donna Rockwell Smilovitz, who tragically passed away after a hernia operation. She had a pulmonary embolism and it was just crushing. I just loved her so much. And she

• 33:05Speaker 01

  had worked at CNN with me and as a producer, and then she had become a therapist. And we took a walk around the reservoir here in New York City. And she said, you know, you should just do your own thing. You know, why do you need a big network infrastructure? And it's true. I mean, it was at that moment that disintermediation, the ability to go direct to consumer, to an audience, was within everyone's reach and only growing. And meanwhile, linear television news- Yeah, legacy media. Yeah, was really declining, just because of the paradox of choice, if you will. So

• 33:43Speaker 01

  I thought, I'm going to do my own thing. I can feel very liberated. I don't have corporate people breathing down my neck. I don't have pressure for ratings. I can really-

• 33:58Speaker 01

  Turn my lens on topics that I think are important like cancer research and cancer screening and you know that colonoscopy, you know, after my husband Jay's death really started me on a lifelong journey of advocacy, not only for cancer but other things. You know, I did a documentary, my executive producer documentary about ALS and I'm very interested in medical and news and science, you know. And I think it's because of my learned experience, you know, I had to understand what was going on with Jay when he was diagnosed with colon cancer.

• 34:39Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  You wrote, I think in your book, I read, you were just like anybody else. You were like researching and trying to call, you know, people in New York and you know, you just felt helpless, you know?

• 34:49Speaker 01

  I called like pharmaceutical companies in Israel. If I read they had a anti-angiogenesis drug or a monoclonal antibody and I had, I learned everything about, at the time, about approaches to cancer therapies and, you know, sadly, the same drug that had been used since the 50s, 5FU and leucovorin, was basically the first line treatment and there hadn't been many advances. And when Jay was diagnosed, it had metastasized so much. It was all over

• 35:26Speaker 01

  his liver and a stage four colorectal diagnosis back then was the prognosis, as my doctor told me in one of those little corner rooms in New York hospital, he said, is bleak. And it was, but I wanted to make sure that no stone was left unturned. And anyway, I have found my cancer work so rewarding and it's really been therapeutic for me, a way to honor my husband. You know, Ellie and Carrie, Marie Claire were six and two when Jay died.

• 36:01Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  Yeah, they were babies.

• 36:02Speaker 01

  You know, and never got to know their dad. You know, when I took those aptitude tests in high school, they all said I should be a social worker, you know? I've always kind of had a lot of empathy, but I think to be able to really focus on this has, has given me so much purpose.

• 36:21Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  I mean, you can tell and I think you alone. Whether you realize it or not, because I'm on the patient end, right? And I'm prescribing colonoscopy. Do go get your colonoscopy. It's time, da, da, da. You took so much of that fear away just by being brave enough to just de-stigmatize it. And you really normalized, to me, the colonoscopy.

• 36:42Speaker 01

  I don't think people even knew the word colonoscopy. I mean, Ronald Reagan, back in the day, had polyps. I don't know if you remember this, you're too young. But that put colon cancer and sort of colons, if you will, kind of front and center. I think Regis Philbin had one. I didn't share much about my husband's illness because that wasn't mine to share.

• 37:05Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  Mm hmm.

• 37:06Speaker 01

  And it was really important for me to preserve our privacy. It was so traumatic going through that, as you can imagine.

• 37:13Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  From diagnosis?

• 37:14Speaker 01

  Nine months.

• 37:15Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  Okay.

• 37:16Speaker 01

  And, you know, the tabloids were writing about it and your brother?

• 37:20Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  My brother was like two years esophageal, but widely metastatic at diagnosis.

• 37:24Speaker 01

  I remember you telling me that.

• 37:25Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  Yeah, and he did all the treatments and, you know, it was never going to be good for him. And he held on for a couple of years. But yeah, you're just so, and it was COVID. So, you know, trying to get over there to see him and, and, because he lived out of state and, you know.

• 37:42Speaker 01

  And esophageal is one of the fastest growing cancers.

• 37:45Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  Yeah.

• 37:46Speaker 01

  And they think it might be because of.

• 37:48Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  Barrett's.

• 37:48Speaker 01

  Barrett's syndrome.

• 37:49Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  He was a smoker. He quit, but he had been a longtime smoker and he had had reflux his whole life.

• 37:56Speaker 01

  Don't they think, Mary Claire, that some of the reflux medications might mask some of the, some of the signs of esophageal cancer? What are they called? They're called.

• 38:07Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  The proton pump inhibitors.

• 38:09Speaker 01

  Thank you.

• 38:09Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  So I'm, I won't even take them anymore.

• 38:11Speaker 01

  Right.

• 38:12Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  So, and I went for my yearly colonoscopy and I, I had arranged to have an upper GI at the same time because my brother had died of esophageal cancer and I'd had lifelong, like my whole family, we all have reflux. And.

• 38:27Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  And I remember like getting there that day and I'd done the colon prep and everything and they're like, hey, you're recovering your colonoscopy, but the upper GI is going to be like three or $4,000. And I just threw my credit card down, you know, because I needed peace of mind.

• 38:40Speaker 01

  Right.

• 38:40Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  And I thought, what did normal people do?

• 38:42Speaker 01

  I thought that so much when I was being treated for breast cancer.

• 38:46Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  The day of, I've gone through the emotions of the prep and, you know, his death and, okay, we're going to go do this and what if they find something and da, da, da, da. And I just thought, my God. And thank God. And they ended up getting most of it covered on the back end. But it was a lot.

• 39:01Speaker 01

  I have a question, though, since we brought up the subject and I imagine some of your listeners and viewers might have acid reflux.

• 39:10Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  Mm-hmm.

• 39:11Speaker 01

  So now, is it, do people, what do they do for acid reflux now if those things seem to be associated with esophageal cancer?

• 39:20Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  More aggressive scopes. You have to look and see. There's no, we don't have a good screening test, like a blood test for esophageal.

• 39:28Speaker 01

  But what do they do for the symptoms of acid reflux?

• 39:31Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  So they are less aggressive with certain medications. They're trying to do lifestyle and diet and nutrition. And if they're obese, we get them on a GLP-1 because sometimes the pressure of being heavier. I mean, instead of just throwing everyone immediately on these medications, they're really-

• 39:47Speaker 01

  What are they called? I'm trying to remember. What was the name of the drug, though?

• 39:50Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  There's two, Nexium.

• 39:52Speaker 01

  Yeah. And there's another one.

• 39:54Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  Yeah, omeprazole and pantoprazole are the two main PPI. And then there's H2 blockers.

• 40:00Speaker 01

  Uh-huh.

• 40:01Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  Which block the acid production. And then there's, there's one that turns off the pump that makes the acid. So, but instead of addressing, like for me, I had H2LORI. And so, once we got that managed, I never, I rarely, rarely have reflux anymore.

• 40:16Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 40:16Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  My whole family had H2LORI. So I think we're getting better at the root cause.

• 40:20Speaker 01

  Because of the rise in esophageal cancer, I think has, I mean, correct me if I'm wrong. Prompted physicians to rethink how they treat acid reflux, right?

• 40:30Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  Yeah.

• 40:31Speaker 01

  So I see, I love medicine. I'm so interested. I wish I'd gone to medical school.

• 40:35Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  So media, the media landscape, I saw some clips from Rich Roll. And so I'm trying to ask you about. But you talked about, you know, in medicine, it's polarizing, social media is polarizing. Was it that polarizing? Like you've watched the evolution of what the hell is happening? You know, why is, I used to go and watch the news to learn things. And now I like, watch the conservative media and then I'll watch the, I'll watch both because I want to know, are we somewhere in the middle? But like you, everyone loves Katie Couric, but no.

• 41:08Speaker 01

  No, no, I think, you know, journalism is

• 41:14Speaker 01

  so really tough industry right now, really tough business, but it's never been more important, honestly. And I think that we have parallel versions of truth. I think that, um, you know, we have

• 41:34Speaker 01

  media organizations that primarily serve as propaganda arms of the current administration. And then we have other media organizations who are, who are labeled as liberal, who I think actually are doing more fact-based journalism. Now, you could say, oh, they're not giving this administration credit for anything. They're attacking it all the time. But I think this is, we're living in such unprecedented times where institutions are being, uh, you know, done away with.

• 42:16Speaker 01

  Journalism is being dismissed and disrespected and distrusted. And

• 42:25Speaker 01

  It's just, it's just a very crazy time because you have information coming to you from every direction. You know, when I got into journalism, it was very, there were few, very few outlets. And now everyone's a journalist. Everyone can give their version of the truth. Everyone can give their opinion. And it's just very confusing for the average news consumer.

• 42:49Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  So my parents, my father passed away, but mama and mom has dementia, but you know, while she was still watching things and definitely my in-laws, my father-in-law just died this year, my mother-in-law's still doing it, only watch certain news channels. They're only getting news from one source.

• 43:06Speaker 01

  Right.

• 43:07Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  That's all they know. And they are convinced that this is true. It would never occur to them that maybe this is biased media because they watch the news to get the news. And they don't think of it as liberal or Democrat, you know, or as conservative or anything. They just think it's the news, but they only watch.

• 43:24Speaker 01

  Fox.

• 43:25Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  Yes.

• 43:26Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 43:27Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  All day, every day. I had to have a special TV put in our house so my father-in-law, so it wouldn't be in the room with me because it just would go on all day. And it, these are good people who went to college.

• 43:41Speaker 01

  Right.

• 43:41Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  Who, you know, in their seventies and eighties are just non-stop, you know, while they're awake, this is on. And they're being fed these messages over and over again. And they don't see anything wrong with it.

• 43:50Speaker 01

  Right. And I think that's such an important point because I think sometimes each side demonizes the other.

• 43:58Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  Yes.

• 43:59Speaker 01

  And I think a lot of it is the content that they are consuming. And that's shaping their worldview inevitably. And to your point, some, in many homes, it's kept in, kept on 24/7. And they're not necessarily getting a different perspective. I believe that

• 44:24Speaker 01

  The New York Times and the Washington Post and the Wall Street Journal, which has quite a conservative op ed page, that I am a big fan of legacy media, NPR, PBS NewsHour, network newscasts. You know, I know MSNBC has a particular bent. I know Fox News has the opposite bent. You know, you really have to learn to be an educated news consumer. And you have to consider the source of everything you read and get it from multiple outlets. I think it's one of the quintessential problems of our time. And, and how do we, how do we come together when we see things so differently?

• 45:07Speaker 01

  And the information we're, we're getting, as my friend Nicole says, people are getting affirmation, not information. We're looking at sources that basically confirm our pre-existing biases.

• 45:21Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  This is sounding a lot like the Women's Health Initiative. I mean, the exact same thing in a much smaller scale happened with that.

• 45:33Speaker 01

  Right.

• 45:33Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  You know, where were you, you know, when that broke?

• 45:36Speaker 01

  So I was doing the Today Show and in fact, an article in, in, in the New York Times Magazine, written by Susan Dominus, who's a great reporter at the New York Times, talked about how not only the stud, and I'd love, you know much more about this than I do, Mary Claire, but not only was the study flawed in terms of the subjects that were being evaluated for HRT, right?

• 46:03Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  Right.

• 46:04Speaker 01

  But then the reason the study was stopped got misinterpreted and misreported. So I think it was kind of those two things coming together that stopped research into hormone replacement therapy.

• 46:20Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  The downstream effects of this have affected an entire generation of women's health, outside of reproduction and probably including reproduction. But like you were on the ground, you know, you're being fed reports, you know, like you gotta read this, whatever. But like, do you remember, like, it was the number one medical news story of 2002.

• 46:40Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 46:40Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  This estrogen causes breast cancer.

• 46:42Speaker 01

  Right.

• 46:42Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  Mess. And I've had a few experts on the podcast, they're queued up, you know, for the next few weeks, who were there like on the research and talking about like the fights behind and like this alternative view of the results and, you know, and it just played out behind closed doors. And it just feels so much the polarization and, and, you know, the paternalism and the, you know, we know what's best and not allowing women to have a voice in their own care.

• 47:10Speaker 01

  Right. Can you like, uh, give me a synopsis of, of what you've learned happen?

• 47:18Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  It was a billion dollar study, which-

• 47:20Speaker 01

  But weren't the women mostly-

• 47:22Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  They were older. The outcome of the study was heart disease. Is she gonna have a heart attack or not?

• 47:27Speaker 01

  Right.

• 47:28Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  You know, are is giving her hormone therapy at whatever age going to decrease her risk of a heart attack. And that was the observational data said that, but you know, in medicine, we have to have controlled randomized. So they went with an older study group because it takes a while to have a heart attack. But the women were obese, had multiple risk factors, probably already had existing cardiovascular disease. They weren't getting caths or any evaluation of their coronary arteries before they were giving them HRT. And the average age was 63.

• 47:56Speaker 01

  Right.

• 47:56Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  Not 50, 51, which is when we started hormone therapy, you know, back in the day. And which is unusual time. So they reported, it not only does it not help heart disease, but it will increase your risk of breast cancer. And that risk never reached statistical significance. And it was only in the arm that took estrogen plus progestogen. Plus, they excluded women with hoplases because they know they were in placebo. Like, there were so many little things that really skewed the results. We use this data all the time. Now that we can say, if you start young, there seems to be, there is a protective effect if you don't have existing cardiovascular disease to protect you. You know, you will have a heart disease later in life, you know, if you, if you were on HRT. But that was

• 48:40Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  like doing and looking at certain ages. If you start before 60- Or within 10 years of your menopause, there is cardiovascular protection. But if you start older, there is not. So like all that new, there was zero nuance when they reported it, but it was a hell of a news story.

• 48:54Speaker 01

  Right, but I think the big panic was this

• 48:57Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  Breast cancer.

• 48:58Speaker 01

  Breast cancer risk, right? And it was a very, very small percentage

• 49:02Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  So the nuance was

• 49:03Speaker 01

  increase, right?

• 49:04Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  Relative risk, which is hard for me to understand. I do this work every day versus individual risk. So the absolute number of women who had breast cancer from taking the combined therapy of a very old medication we don't use anymore was like one case out of a thousand per year. But it was 25% higher than the baseline rate. And so they reported 25% increased risk of breast cancer. You know, and it scared the hell out of women. It scared the hell out of me as a young, you know, resident. And we were terrified and we were waiting, you know, we weren't even allowed to see the study when the headlines came out. And once that genie got out of the bottle.

• 49:41Speaker 01

  It just stopped all the research

• 49:43Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  Yes.

• 49:44Speaker 01

  And its tracks, didn't it?

• 49:45Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  Yes.

• 49:45Speaker 01

  And I still get confused about the estrogen progesterone combo. Because if you have your reproductive organs.

• 49:53Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  You need something to protect the lining of the uterus.

• 49:56Speaker 01

  So you need progesterone.

• 49:57Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  Yeah. So because the endometrium, the lining of the uterus, the inside, like where the babies grow, where your periods are made, is highly sensitive to estrogen. It's, it builds this tissue out.

• 50:08Speaker 01

  Right.

• 50:08Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  And progesterone makes you shut it at the end of the cycle. And if you just have estrogen going on and on and on, that tissue will just continue to grow and divide. And for some women, it becomes hyperplastic and then maybe malignant. So we can give you a progestogen and negate that risk.

• 50:23Speaker 01

  You know, I was going through menopause kind of right around the time I became the anchor of the CBS Evening News. So I didn't want to be like Arthur Brooks in broadcast news, you know?

• 50:34Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  Did you have hot flashes?

• 50:36Speaker 01

  I didn't really have hot flashes. I had night sweats, but I also wanted to stay mentally sharp. You know, I didn't want to have a brain fart in the middle of the evening news. So I started, I went on the patch and then I took bio-identical progesterone at night. I sometimes forgot, honestly.

• 50:56Speaker 01

  And, and I loved it and I would have stayed on it. Forever. I don't know if I'm allowed to do that. I would have talked to my doctor, obviously. But then I was diagnosed out of the blue with breast cancer. And it was hormone receptor positive breast cancer. Now, quick question while I have you, doctor. Was that caused by my HRT and progesterone?

• 51:21Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  No. When we look at the data, so there were other trials. There's like a keeps trial and a Kronos trial and other things in Europe. Because in Europe, they actually didn't use the PRIMPRO that we used in the US. So the estrogen only arm, which was Primran, equine estrogen, you know,

• 51:36Speaker 01

  horsein.

• 51:37Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  Had a decrease, 30% decrease, you know, relative risk of breast cancer. So the estrogen only arm, estrogen was very protective. We think because it's an anti-inflammatory and lowered their, their risk. And though the women who were on HRT at the time of their diagnosis, had lower stage and better survival rates. So, a certain amount of women are going to get breast cancer and we're working on why that happens.

• 52:00Speaker 01

  Yeah, because I have no history of breast cancer.

• 52:02Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  Especially modern HRT form. And most women do not have a family history.

• 52:06Speaker 01

  Uh huh.

• 52:07Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  Most breast cancer is a one off.

• 52:08Speaker 01

  Right, right. It's like 82% or something, right?

• 52:12Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  So you being on HRT at the time of your diagnosis probably led to an earlier stage diagnosis for multiple reasons. One, we think it plumps up the cells so that they're easier to find. Right? Did you feel a note or you just went in for a routine?

• 52:25Speaker 01

  I just went in for a routine mammogram.

• 52:27Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  And that you are usually getting regular screening because you're going to your doctor to get your refills and they're getting your mammograms and stuff.

• 52:33Speaker 01

  Right. And also, I'm kind of hyper about my health because I'm a, a single mom. Yeah.

• 52:39Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  So yeah, your HRT did not cause your breast cancer. It was probably feeding those cells that had had a malignant transformation from a healthy cell to a malignant cell. And so they, because you had estrogen receptor positive. So we all have estrogen receptors on the breast cells. And then if they, when they go through the malignant transformation, they might retain those receptors. So we can use those receptors to attack the cancer cell and, and put you on blockers and things. So I don't know if you were on AIs or any of aromatase inhibitors or Tamoxifen?

• 53:07Speaker 01

  I am now. I'm on, I, I, I'm AstraZeneca.

• 53:11Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  Yeah.

• 53:12Speaker 01

  What upsets me, though, of getting back to the Women's Health Initiative, is that For 30 years, this research really

• 53:20Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  Dominated like

• 53:21Speaker 01

  It was never really done. And I feel like if this study had not been stopped, and I remember interviewing Bernadine Healy, who was the female head of NIH, which was great. I thought, well, if that study had not been halted, they probably now would have some kind of therapy that would bypass any kind of estrogen in my breasts or

• 53:46Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  So they do.

• 53:47Speaker 01

  You know, they do.

• 53:48Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  Yeah, let me tell you about it.

• 53:49Speaker 01

  But I know there's vaginal estrogen.

• 53:51Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  You can use vaginal estrogen today. There is a medication called bezodoxapine, which is a CERM, a selective estrogen modulator. Basically, it binds preferentially to different estrogen receptors. We have alpha and beta. It's very high tech. So CERMs are things like Tamoxifen is a CERM. Okay, it preferentially binds. So what bezodoxapine

• 54:10Speaker 01

  When you say serum, I think people think of like the thing you put on your face.

• 54:14Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  I mean, in your blood.

• 54:15Speaker 01

  In your blood. So it's a pill, though.

• 54:17Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  So, yeah. So bezodoxapine is a pill. They've combined it with Primorin and it's called Duave or Duave. And Duave allows that estrogen to get to your brain, your bones, your joints.

• 54:30Speaker 01

  My skin?

• 54:31Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  Your skin.

• 54:32Speaker 01

  Thank God.

• 54:32Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  But it binds and blocks the estrogen receptor and down-regulates in the breast.

• 54:38Speaker 01

  Well, why hasn't my, I love my doctor.

• 54:41Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  Hang on. So they're doing studies right now in high-risk patients who had stage zero cancers. And, and so far, the early data is showing that on this Duave, they are not seeing, they're seeing decreased recurrence.

• 54:55Speaker 01

  Wow.

• 54:55Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  So we're getting there, but there is hope. So my patients who are high-risk, we're talking to them, or anyone who has like bleeding or severe breast tenderness, like Duave, like my best, best friend growing up, Carolyn. Mom horrific died, you know, and she's so terrified, but her, her symptoms were so bad. So I came to a compromise with her on this medication and it's changed her life. She sleeps at night knowing she's, it's probably lowering her risk of breast cancer because the way the estrogen receptor reacts in her and in her breast and in her uterus. But she's getting the symptomatic treatment she needs.

• 55:32Speaker 01

  Yeah, I, I would love to look into that because estrogen is like a wonder hormone.

• 55:37Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  We tend to, as humans, function better when it's in our system.

• 55:40Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 55:40Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  But you know, it's a balance of recurrence risk versus.

• 55:43Speaker 01

  No, of course, of course.

• 55:44Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  You know, everything else in your life and what's missing in the post cancer conversation for most women, they're great at giving you nausea medicine for your chemo and they're great about, you know, warning you about all these side effects, except for your sexual health, your bones, your joints, your, you know, the things that when we've removed this estrogen, no one's like preparing you or like.

• 56:05Speaker 01

  Right.

• 56:06Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  Help guiding you through this.

• 56:07Speaker 01

  That's true. That's fascinating. And I'm, I'm so glad I, I know more about that now because I'm doing a documentary.

• 56:15Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  I was gonna ask, on hormonal, do you have a name yet? Can I say it?

• 56:19Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah. I mean, we had our first meeting this morning, actually, with the directors and the producers and the researchers. And, you know, I've been interested in the disparities between, in medical research between men and women for some time. I, I think when I first learned that it wasn't, women were not required to be included in clinical trials until 1993. And the fact that, you know, the statistics are just staggering that an average of four years longer to be diagnosed with the disease, women's pain has so, for so long.

• 56:55Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  Right.

• 56:56Speaker 01

  Not been acknowledged. Right. And, and so many things. I couldn't believe, Mary Claire, that I just read that. They finally have female crash test dummies that have breasts and they did realize they had to make them smaller, but they didn't consider sort of the physiology of a woman's body. And now they have in crash test dummies.

• 57:23Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  Who cares, right? Except we're way more likely to die in a car crash.

• 57:28Speaker 01

  Yes, exactly.

• 57:28Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  Than a man, because the dummies that they do all the safety testing on and make the seat belts for and the airbags were tested on male dummies, never on females.

• 57:38Speaker 01

  And the statistics, there are so many that are so shocking. And so this issue has really, I think, bubbled to the surface, but I feel like it's kind of in bits and pieces. So we want to kind of try to give people, connect the dots and give them the big picture of why women have been so dismissed and ignored.

• 58:03Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  The system was built, you know, by men.

• 58:06Speaker 01

  For men.

• 58:07Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  Basically for men and actually Caucasian men. And throughout history and anything that went, what didn't fit that model was considered abnormal, atypical, you know, despite females are 41, 51% of the population, our chest pain and a heart attack is atypical. But I think the first step is recognizing it and that's what we're so good at communicating. And then it's like, okay, we recognize it and now we have to legislate it. We have to teach it. We have to make this mandatory part of the curriculum.

• 58:37Speaker 01

  Right.

• 58:38Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  I really see, I really, like, my prayer is at the end of my life, so my daughter's in medical school, that she will understand the sex-based differences in health, you know, and at a level that was never taught to me.

• 58:50Speaker 01

  Isn't that crazy?

• 58:53Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  That we have a women's health specialty.

• 58:55Speaker 01

  Right.

• 58:56Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  That it doesn't include having babies. OB GYN is great, and I'm an obstetrician gynecologist. That's the breast and pelvis, you know, and having babies. But like, that should be one part and then everything else. Women's cardiovascular disease, women's autoimmune disease, women's musculoskeletal disease, women's health should be a specialty outside of obstetrics. So there are a couple of fellowships. So my friends, Lisa Larkin, who is president of the Menopause Society, and Heather Hirsch, who's very active on social media right now, they both did women's health fellowships out of internal medicine. So but we need more of that.

• 59:28Speaker 01

  You know what I thought was so interesting that, and I don't know if it's changed, but I remember when I first started really digging into this topic, that so many medical schools don't have a women's health rotation or curriculum, and that there was a group of, I guess, doctors at Stanford, I'm sure they were mostly women, who took it upon themselves to develop their own curriculum focusing on women's health. Today, do medical schools have this kind of specialty for, that is insane to me, or just fellowships?

• 1:00:00Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  It's just really fellowships, and it is difficult, you know, the curriculums are so massive, and, and, you know, even in OBGYN, when I think about, we are expected to be social workers, psychiatrists, you know, surgeons, midwives, you know, all the things, and for me to like, track all this stuff down, and know the differences in male and female cardiovascular disease, and male and female urology, and, and it's a lot, and I think it needs its own specialty curriculum, and we just have to demand it.

• 1:00:34Speaker 01

  Well, getting back to estrogen, I thought it was so interesting that the reason that women weren't studied more closely in clinical trials was because of their hormones, and hormone hormonal fluctuations.

• 1:00:47Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  That's considered hard.

• 1:00:48Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:00:48Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  Even the animal models, they take out the estrus, they don't have periods, it's a little bit different, you know, if you have a dog.

• 1:00:56Speaker 01

  Didn't they use male, male mice for the longest times, right?

• 1:00:59Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  Male mice, right.

• 1:01:00Speaker 01

  Right?

• 1:01:00Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  Yeah.

• 1:01:00Speaker 01

  So, I think it's like, we were too difficult to study.

• 1:01:05Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  And is it really difficult, it's just us, but compared to men, you know, it's more expensive to factor in hormonal changes throughout the cycle, or not having hormones as a postmenopausal person, you know, it's just more expensive, it's harder, and, you know, the, the cardiovascular drugs we use today were, you know, not really tested in women. So

• 1:01:26Speaker 01

  Exactly. And that's why we're calling this film that we're developing and and getting ready to shoot hormonal because so much of women's health is predicated on hormones. And even as we get older, I think it's so fascinating. I don't know how much you know about this, and I'm going to dig into it. You know, dementia and Alzheimer's.

• 1:01:46Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:01:47Speaker 01

  And and how our hormones are affecting our brain health, right? And and also the microbiome, so interesting. But I think that I read that even though two out of three Alzheimer's patients are female, only 12% of the funding in Alzheimer's research is focused on women.

• 1:02:06Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  Exactly.

• 1:02:07Speaker 01

  And why women are getting this disease or the role hormones play. So I think it's going to be so revelatory. And I think there are a lot of things that are still, I mean, there are many areas, Mary Claire, you know better than I do, of women's suffering and silence. But I think about sort of the stigma around postpartum depression and even psychosis. And I covered stories about that at Andrea Yates in Texas.

• 1:02:33Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  She was 20 miles. I was in Resil.

• 1:02:35Speaker 01

  Oh, my God. That story stuck with me, has stuck with me for decades. And for your listeners who don't remember, Andrea Yates was from Texas, from Houston, right?

• 1:02:47Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  Just outside of Houston.

• 1:02:48Speaker 01

  Houston.

• 1:02:48Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  Between Houston and Galveston where I was practicing.

• 1:02:50Speaker 01

  She had five children, all very young, homeschooling them. Her husband, Rusty, worked at NASA.

• 1:02:57Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  So she had postpartum psychosis. So the most extreme version of postpartum depression, she she had a like hypoestrogenic state that absolutely un, you know, she was hearing voices.

• 1:03:10Speaker 01

  Killed five of her kids.

• 1:03:11Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  That told her she had to save her children by drowning them, by killing them.

• 1:03:15Speaker 01

  Right. She killed them. She drowned her oldest son in a very scary story. I I went down with a producer from the Today Show, Sarah Claggett. We we flew to Houston. And I met Rusty, her husband. And he invited me in the house. And he showed me where the little boys were had kept their Legos and the, you know, they had a very young infant daughter.

• 1:03:45Speaker 01

  And then he said, would you like to see the bathroom? I think her oldest son's name was Noah, if I remember correctly. It was the worst story, Mary Claire, and she chased her oldest son and drowned him in the bathtub. And I said to Rusty Yates, I don't think I can, I don't think I can do that. But I remember doing a lot of research and you, you might remember this too. She had both postpartum depression and psychosis. And they ended up, like she, she just got very shitty care. And part of it is they don't know how to treat this, right? But, but they took her off her postpartum psychosis meds,

• 1:04:31Speaker 01

  kept her on her postpartum depression meds, which made her feel well enough to act out her scary intrusive,

• 1:04:40Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  intrusive thoughts, you know?

• 1:04:42Speaker 01

  And, um, but anyway, the reason I bring that up, it was so heartbreaking. But that's a topic that I think mothers, new mothers are ashamed to talk about postpartum depression. I think it affects so many. And again, that's because of your hormonal changes, right, Mary Claire? That happen after you give birth.

• 1:05:02Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  Yeah. So you have this ma- massive drop in estrogen postpartum, especially if you're nursing, because the prolactin will suppress the function of the ovary, which is meant to keep you from getting pregnant again, so you can take care of your infant. And as you're, as you're nursing, the ability to reproduce goes down, and that's an evolutionary advantage. But it will, in some women, will absolutely unlock, you know, intrusive thoughts. I had intrusive thoughts when Catherine was born. I remember being in the tub with her and like giving her a little bath, and I would have thoughts of her drowning. I had no impulse to act on it, but it was the scariest thing.

• 1:05:39Speaker 01

  I had that too. I was always afraid that I would leave Ellie on the side of the road. Like, what if that happened? Um, and I think it's like, It's it's both chemical and then this overwhelming sense of responsibility you have that you're responsible for this little helpless thing. You know, so it is really scary, but what what makes me mad is I think it's another example of the medical establishment ignoring a very specific issue that happens to women and and not really focusing on it, not providing the research dollars, because I am sure everyone

• 1:06:20Speaker 01

  thinks about like Viagra, okay, men can't get it up, so they pour that, you know, millions of dollars.

• 1:06:25Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  We have forty options for alcohol dysfunction.

• 1:06:27Speaker 01

  And and they they create this drug in a nanosecond, and yet women who are suffering, they're they're being ignored, and it really pisses me off.

• 1:06:36Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  One good thing that came out of the Yates, by the time I finished early, you know, so within three or four years, we had mandatory screening for postpartum depression and psychosis. That had never happened before.

• 1:06:48Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:06:49Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  And I don't know if that was just a Texas thing, because I've only practiced in Texas, you know, until recently, but like every single postpartum patient, we were screening at every visit with a, you know, standardized screening test for depression, and that came directly out of what happened to Andrea Yates.

• 1:07:03Speaker 01

  Well, thank goodness, and I hope that's done all across the country, but you know, even Ellie said I she she struggled with postpartum depression, and she didn't really even talk to me about it, and we're extremely close, and I just think anything we can do, I guess there are more support groups, people are talking about it more openly.

• 1:07:21Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  This is the power of social media, because they're sharing their stories.

• 1:07:23Speaker 01

  I still don't think.

• 1:07:25Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  The support.

• 1:07:26Speaker 01

  That there's enough focus on it and enough science that's really interrogating how we can mitigate the symptoms.

• 1:07:34Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  So why do you keep working? I'm assuming if you quit tomorrow, you'd be fine, like the house wouldn't fall down, you would financially be okay.

• 1:07:42Speaker 01

  Oh, I I would definitely be okay financially. I've been I've been overpaid for years. But.

• 1:07:48Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  What keeps you go, I mean, you're you're you were you are constantly working.

• 1:07:51Speaker 01

  I know.

• 1:07:52Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  And I love that about you.

• 1:07:53Speaker 01

  I feel like I have this reservoir of trust that, uh, among some people that now in the current political environment, you know, some people.

• 1:08:04Speaker 01

  Don't, don't like what I'm doing, but I feel that, that, that I'm doing a public service. Honestly, I feel like if I can help give information to people that will either prevent them from getting colon cancer, or help them understand an issue, or clarify something, and that people appreciate that I, I, my goal is to, to provide fact-based, scientifically-backed, at a time where science is being so, um, you know, sadly, uh, demeaned,

• 1:08:46Speaker 01

  and, um, you know, just so upsetting to me, because scientists are heroes in my book, and so are doctors. But I, I feel like I have an obligation to use whatever reservoir of trust I've built up, and also the platform I have, to try to, to give important information. And, and I love it, because I am learning things all the time. You know, I was thinking the other day, I went to some place, and, or I had a conversation, oh, it was with Ellie Honig, the lawyer, all about like how the immigration courts are different than

• 1:09:27Speaker 01

  the, the regular courts, and how due process is different for illegal immigrants, and they, you know, or immigrants, and, you know, anyway, I just feel like there's so much I still don't know, and still don't understand, that in a way, I'm being selfish, because I'm learning these things in real time, and through my experience of learning and understanding, I hopefully am illuminating things for other people. And, and so I just like, I just like it. I like, I don't know what I would do. I mean, I think I would find like a cause I cared about or, uh, you know, a charity or a nonprofit and really, but you know, sometimes I think, what's wrong with me?

• 1:10:12Speaker 01

  Am I worried of what will happen if I actually stand still for a moment? Maybe I'm afraid of that on some level, but that's between me and my therapist, I guess, which I don't have right now. Maybe I need to get one. But anyway, I just like being busy. I like being active. I like feeling like I'm having some kind of impact, even if it's for like five people and not seven million or whatever the Today Show viewership was, that I, I'm being of service, as weird and cheesy as that sounds.

• 1:10:45Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  It's so important because so many of my followers get to this point. You know, I'm 57, you're 60.

• 1:10:50Speaker 01

  68.

• 1:10:51Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  68. And, you know, menopause happens, this midlife shift, this inflection point, and they feel invisible and that their words don't matter and that their actions can't change the world. But I, I just love that you're like, no.

• 1:11:04Speaker 01

  Yeah. I've always been a bit of a, like, nonconformist and, uh, you know, not one to necessarily follow societal rules. And, um, you know, I, I just think it's so important and, you know, getting back to sort of longevity and health span, you know, I think it's so sad that women live longer but don't live well. And I think obviously we're talking about our physical selves, but I think to live well, that means rich and important friendships and hobbies and things that you're passionate about, you know?

• 1:11:46Speaker 01

  And so I, I want to keep doing this in some capacity, maybe not at the ridiculous level I'm doing now, you know, working on documentaries and doing this and, you know, then I'm kind of like a cancer clearinghouse for so many people too, because people reach out to me. But I, I want to stay engaged in the world. You know, and I'm sure you feel that way, too. And how do you do that? You do it by doing, right?

• 1:12:15Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  Yeah, you do it by doing and just leaning into where you feel like you're doing the most good.

• 1:12:19Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:12:20Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  So, well, thank you so much.

• 1:12:22Speaker 01

  This was so fun. I really appreciate what you're doing and you are performing such a public service for so many women and so many men who need to care about the health of their partners.

• 1:12:36Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  You can hear more from Katie by listening to her podcast, Next Question with Katie Couric, wherever you get your podcasts or subscribe to her newsletter, [email protected]. You can find full episodes of UnPaused on YouTube at Dr. Mary Claire. I'd love to hear from you about this topic and anything else that's on your mind. You can find me on Instagram at DrMaryClaire and get honest and accurate information on health, fitness, and navigating midlife at thepauselife.com. My upcoming book, The New Perimenopause, is available for preorder on Amazon. If you're loving this podcast, I have an important request. Please take a moment to follow UnPaused on your favorite podcast app.

• 1:13:18Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  Following and listening is what pushes this information to more women who need it. So if this podcast has helped you feel seen, understood, or supported, hit follow right now so you never miss an episode. Thank you for being here with me. Let's keep going. UnPaused.

• 1:13:36Dr. Mary Claire Haver?

  UnPaused is presented by Odyssey in conjunction with Pod People. I'm your host, Dr. Mary Claire Haver. The views and opinions expressed on UnPaused are those of the talent and guests alone and are provided for informational and entertainment purposes only. No part of this podcast or any related materials are intended to be a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis, or treatment.