98. The Cases That Keep Us Up At Night // The Parlor (feat. Psychopedia)

I sit down in the Parlor of the Rogue Detecting Society Headquarters with my good friends Tank and Investigator Slater for a chat. They tell me about some of the cases that keep them up at night, and we chat about Slater's work investigating abuse cases within the Boy Scouts and Catholic Church Tw: reference to sexual assault, suicide Subscribe on Patreon https://www.patreon.com/heartstartspoundingfor bonus content and to become a member of our Rogue Detecting Society. Patrons have access to bonus content as well as other perks. And members of our High Council on Patreon have access to our after-show called Footnotes, where I share my case file with our producer, Matt. Apple subscriptions are now live! Get access to bonus episodes and more when you subscribe on Apple Podcasts. Follow on Tik Tok https://www.tiktok.com/@heartstartspounding?lang=enand Instagram https://www.instagram.com/heartstartspounding/ for a daily dose of horror.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Kaelyn Moore?

  This episode is brought to you by Toyota. Buy smart, drive for less and trade for more. That's Toyota affordability. And it all starts with a great deal from your local Toyota dealer. Make a smart buy on an all wheel drive Camry, Corolla Cross, or get a Corolla sedan packed with the latest features, advanced tech and head turning style. Take a test drive in two of Toyota's most popular SUVs, the spacious, family-friendly Grand Highlander and adventure-ready RAV4. And with so many hybrid and plug-in hybrid models available across the lineup, plus efficient all-electrics like the BZ, BZ Woodland and all-wheel-drive CHR, you can drive your way and skip the pump. And long after you leave the lot, your Toyota keeps delivering with legendary resale value,

• 0:44Kaelyn Moore?

  built on a reputation for quality and reliability. So when it's time for your next Toyota, you could trade in for more. From a great deal today to a great value tomorrow, a Toyota is right for you. Shop toyota.com for deals and details, or stop by your local Toyota dealer today. Toyota, let's go places. Welcome to a special episode of Heart Starts Pounding. I'm your host, Kayla Moore. Now typically, when I do the podcast Heart Starts Pounding, I'm up in the study of the Rogue Detecting Society headquarters, surrounded by books and newspapers, telling you guys about what I've learned that week. But this week, I wanted to do something a little different. I'm actually going to be down in the parlor of the headquarters, where I sometimes have guests over. And today, I want to share one of those conversations I had with you guys. Now, I had my friends Tank and Investigator Slater

• 1:29Kaelyn Moore?

  from the Psychopedia podcast over to talk all things true crime. On their show, Psychopedia, they cover the dark world of some of the most deranged criminals you've ever heard of. And as a darkly curious person, I wanted to have them over to tell me some of those stories. Now, today's episode is going to look a little bit darker than a standard Heart Starts Pounding episode, so be warned. Tank and Slater tell me all about the psychology of killers, as well as some cases that still keep them up at night. So I hope you enjoy our conversation as much as I did.

• 2:02Speaker 01

  So I just want to thank you for having us on your podcast for the very first time without any previous or prior attempts or takes.

• 2:10Kaelyn Moore?

  Oh, yeah, this is first time, first time we're meeting. Yeah.

• 2:13Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, definitely. So nice to meet you finally. And I just, I feel so familiar with you, even though it's our first time definitely meeting and doing this particular podcast.

• 2:21Kaelyn Moore?

  I know, even though we haven't recorded for two and a half hours, that was unusable prior to this. I will say my listeners will appreciate this because most of them know already, but I, when I moved into this new house, I went and got a hundred year old monkey doll from this store called Uncommon Objects. And it just really spoke to me. It was like in this like, little area where there was a bunch of like, really old spooky looking monkey dolls. And the guy at the store jokingly said that they were haunted. But I felt this monkey, I was like, there's no way this monkey's haunted. That's no, he has too good of energy. And I brought him to this place. And that's the room I recorded in.

• 2:59Speaker 01

  This is our haunted piece of.

• 3:01Kaelyn Moore?

  You have a haunted Shrek Buddha.

• 3:04Speaker 01

  Buddha. Yeah, look at, oh, whoa, I can't even show you that. No, I'm just not great. So just so to clear everyone up on what happened, we recorded a very long, nice, excellent podcast. And I flubbed it hard.

• 3:20Kaelyn Moore?

  No, my haunted monkey flubbed it.

• 3:22Speaker 01

  No, no, no.

• 3:23Kaelyn Moore?

  None of us are to blame.

• 3:24Speaker 01

  Full responsibility. I am to blame. It's okay. I make memes for a living and.

• 3:29Kaelyn Moore?

  Listen, we're all in this together.

• 3:30Speaker 01

  We are.

• 3:31Kaelyn Moore?

  Okay.

• 3:31Speaker 01

  Yeah, like it or not.

• 3:32Kaelyn Moore?

  Listen, podcasting is hard. Sometimes you have to like, plug the mics in and that's really confusing. Exactly. Apparently so. It's hard. It is hard. No, but I'm so excited to have you guys on because I think my listeners are really going to respond to this because you guys cover really dark cases. Psychopedia is true crime. You cover a lot of true crime stuff, but you tend to cover really dark cases, like stuff that I don't necessarily touch on Heart Starts Pounding. So it's.

• 3:59Speaker 01

  True crime and comedy. Don't forget me.

• 4:02Kaelyn Moore?

  Of course. Yeah. Thanks there for the good vibes. The setup of Psychopedia is I bring the gravity and Tank brings the levity. Yeah.

• 4:11Speaker 01

  And she brings the depravity also.

• 4:13Speaker 02

  Yeah, thank you. That was such a kind thing.

• 4:15Speaker 01

  Depravity and gravity, and I bring the levity, and that's it.

• 4:17Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 4:18Kaelyn Moore?

  What is there criteria for what makes a psychopedia episode? Like, when you're looking through cases, do you have like a, yeah, any criteria?

• 4:28Speaker 02

  Gut instinct. I know that sounds silly, but sometimes some of the editors that we work with will ask for like advanced notice on the cases that we're gonna do. And a lot of times I don't have it because I won't choose the case until we're getting close to recording, because I kind of go with what I'm feeling. I have my finger on the pulse of our listeners and kind of their feedback. Sometimes it's a case that's breaking the headlines right now, and I will absolutely investigate the hell out of it, like no sleep for three days, round the clock, you know, so we can crank it out. Other times, I'm feeling like an old timey case. I like the old timey cases myself. The first case we ever covered was about a priest in Germany who was horrifically depraved, but that case, I think, took place in like the early 1900s.

• 5:13Speaker 01

  Yeah, Father Hans Schmidt.

• 5:15Kaelyn Moore?

  But Slater, you said that your family kind of has like a history in the true crime space, kind of.

• 5:21Speaker 02

  Yeah, so my, my family has a law firm or many locations around the country. The one that I work out of is here on Long Island.

• 5:28Speaker 01

  And her brother's a serial killer. Don't forget to mention that.

• 5:30Kaelyn Moore?

  Oh, yeah.

• 5:31Speaker 02

  My brother is not a serial killer. That's my father.

• 5:33Speaker 01

  He is. Oh, yeah, that's right. Sorry.

• 5:35Kaelyn Moore?

  That's a good episode.

• 5:36Speaker 02

  Yeah. And I work as an investigator by, by profession for the law firm. So I'm in this space professionally, but I, I work exclusively with survivors of sexual abuse who are adults now, but who suffered sexual abuse when they were children. So that's, that's the nine to five. That's the day to day. But my passion, just in general, is, is investigating and unraveling all the layers of complexity with the human psyche. I always feel compelled to understand the background of a killer. I don't excuse what they go on to do. I don't give them a pass. But everybody wound up where they are because they came from somewhere, usually.

• 6:18Speaker 02

  Very, very rare to be come across a case where there is a killer who had like a very stable upbringing of, you know.

• 6:24Speaker 01

  It's a combination of nature and nurture and she really gets into the nurture.

• 6:28Speaker 02

  Yeah, for me, it's fascinating to understand what leads somebody to the level of depravity that lands them on an episode of Psychopedia. And again, it doesn't excuse them. I don't empathize or I shouldn't say I don't empathize because I empathize with these people.

• 6:42Speaker 01

  With the kid.

• 6:43Speaker 02

  With who they were as children, when they suffered whatever they suffered that sort of led them down a path to absolute horror.

• 6:50Speaker 01

  And then there's always, it's funny because there's always a switch in energy during the episode where we're like, damn, this kid had a rough upbringing, feel so bad for him. And then at some point, inevitably, we're both like, ah, this guy sucks. Yeah, it is like, I mean.

• 7:03Kaelyn Moore?

  Yeah, that's actually, that's interesting. When do you feel like, because I think about that too, right? You, you hear the stories of serial killers and they're often very sad. Like there's a lot of trauma that goes into building up these people, but at a certain point, they're responsible for what's going on.

• 7:19Speaker 01

  Hundred percent.

• 7:20Speaker 02

  Excuse them and they can't be mixing, you know, in society. They can't, they can't be a threat to anybody out there, so they have to be put away. They, there's no question about that.

• 7:30Speaker 01

  We don't get into at what point they cross over from vulnerable, empathized, you know, child you can empathize with to serial killer. It's usually when they start doing the killing where we're like, okay, like this, these guys, these people just need to be locked away. Their circumstances contributed. There's a lot of traumatic brain injuries that she illustrates during these cases, which I think is fascinating because the TBI slash CTE repeatedly, especially in utero, leads to some of the most depraved serial killers that we've ever covered.

• 8:03Speaker 02

  Yeah, we've done a few cases where the killer was literally, or the mother was abused while she was pregnant with the, you know, soon to be killer.

• 8:14Speaker 01

  Jamie Osuna.

• 8:15Speaker 02

  Jamie Osuna, the Brazilian Dexter case that we did, Pedro Rodrigo Filo or Filo.

• 8:20Kaelyn Moore?

  Oh, wow. So they can actually tell when a child has had a brain injury in utero.

• 8:26Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 8:27Speaker 02

  In these cases, they could.

• 8:28Kaelyn Moore?

  Wow.

• 8:29Speaker 02

  One of the perpetrators was born with an indentation in his head. You could visibly see it.

• 8:35Speaker 01

  Cause the father kicked the mother that hard in the stomach.

• 8:38Speaker 02

  Term. So, you know, I, I don't want to say he never had a chance or he came into the world, you know, but he, he came into the world with, with, you know, the cards stacked against him for sure.

• 8:48Speaker 01

  He wasn't starting with an A.

• 8:50Speaker 02

  He wasn't starting, right, with, with.

• 8:51Kaelyn Moore?

  Yeah.

• 8:52Speaker 02

  But again, it's, it's typically never just one thing that's going to lead to, you know, the level of depravity that, that we explore. It's typically a combination of things. It's, it could be a TBI like Tank was saying. It could be a very, very abusive upbringing.

• 9:09Speaker 01

  And the most important factor is that at some point, they decide to let these things overtake them and they start killing. That's like, you can have all the different, you know, he was neglectful mother, abused by his father, beaten up as a kid, whatever, TBI. At some point, they all say, I'm going to let this thing run wild.

• 9:26Kaelyn Moore?

  Yeah. Did you watch the new, that reminds me of the new Netflix documentary that just came out, Into the Fire, The Lost Daughter?

• 9:34Speaker 01

  No, I have, I've been hearing about it.

• 9:35Kaelyn Moore?

  You're going to be all over this. It's a fantastic documentary. It is about a person who, I guess he's a serial killer. It's not ever really discussed if he's a serial killer, but he has killed and assaulted multiple people. So he's a really bad guy.

• 9:50Speaker 01

  In a serial fashion.

• 9:51Speaker 02

  Three or more.

• 9:51Kaelyn Moore?

  In a serial fashion.

• 9:53Speaker 01

  With.

• 9:53Kaelyn Moore?

  An offender.

• 9:54Speaker 01

  With a cooldown period in between the killings.

• 9:57Speaker 02

  Oh my God. I'm so proud of you.

• 9:59Kaelyn Moore?

  There was a cooldown period. There was like a nine year period in between, which is, that's interesting that there has to be a cooldown.

• 10:04Speaker 02

  There has to be a cooldown period and three or more victims for it to be considered a serial killer.

• 10:09Kaelyn Moore?

  So I guess you, there's probably more victims out there in the documentary we really focus on too, but um, they don't, it, it's about this man who's probably a serial killer, but they really don't get into his backstory. It's all from the perspective of. The mom looking for her daughter that he killed, that he, he was, uh, he had adopted when she was born. So he, he adopted this girl. She goes missing when she's 14 and everyone's trying to figure out what had happened. But he's kind of this like background character for like a while in the documentary. But one thing he says, when we start looking at, uh, the police recordings of his interrogations, is he's talking about this darkness, like he'll draw pictures of himself and there's always this really

• 10:53Kaelyn Moore?

  dark scraggly ball in front of his chest. And he's like, that's the darkness. And I was able to put that away for a long time, but eventually it overcame me. Cause think you were saying about like people letting things overtake them and.

• 11:07Speaker 02

  Yeah. I don't know if it's, if it's somebody letting it happen or it happens because it's so powerful. Maybe they're not addressing it. They're not taking the steps they need to overcome it.

• 11:19Speaker 01

  Plus it's probably like exhausting for them to try and keep this thing. So I, I don't make excuses for anybody, whether or not you kill somebody.

• 11:29Speaker 01

  And you feel like you were possessed to do so. We both obviously believe that you need to go away. You need to like be somewhere where you can't hurt other people. Sorry that you feel out of control, but like you gotta go away. But it's also on the same token, like this person just had this thing inside them that was driving them.

• 11:48Kaelyn Moore?

  Yeah.

• 11:48Speaker 01

  More than anything, this, this itch that they have to scratch, so to speak.

• 11:53Kaelyn Moore?

  Right. Yeah. But you have also covered cases where someone will kill someone out of, I don't want to say like a justifiable reason, but it's.

• 12:04Speaker 02

  For sure.

• 12:04Kaelyn Moore?

  Yeah. Where it's not like a serial need to do this.

• 12:08Speaker 01

  Brazilian Dexter.

• 12:09Speaker 02

  Well, that right. That was like a.

• 12:11Kaelyn Moore?

  Wait, see, yeah, you keep saying Brazilian Dexter, but can, for my listeners that don't know what this is, can you explain it? This episode is brought to you by Pernuvo. When it comes to your health, there's a lot that you can't see or feel. And sometimes having more information can make all the difference. That's where Prenuvo comes in. Prenuvo offers proactive whole body MRI scans designed to help identify potential health concerns, including many cancers, aneurysms, and other conditions, sometimes before symptoms appear. The Prenuvo scan is non-invasive, uses no radiation, and is designed to give people a detailed picture of what's happening inside their bodies. Taking care of your health isn't just about responding when something feels wrong. It's about being proactive and making informed decisions.

• 12:55Kaelyn Moore?

  Prenuvo is helping people take a different approach to understanding their health. To learn more about Prenuvo and get $300 off your whole body MRI, go to prenuvo.com/hsp and use code HSP. That's P-R-E-N-U-V-O dot com slash HSP. Terms and conditions apply.

• 13:16Speaker 03

  The Unsolved Mysteries podcast is back. I'm Jordan Murphy, and each week I'll take you inside a new investigation. It could be an unsolved murder, an unexplained disappearance, the search for a wanted fugitive, any mystery that still needs answers. We'll follow every new lead, every break in the case, and the moments when a mystery is finally solved. Because after all these years, one thing hasn't changed. Someone, somewhere, knows the truth. Listen to and follow Unsolved Mysteries. Available now, wherever you get your podcasts.

• 13:46Speaker 02

  Sure. A Brazilian man by the name of Pedro Rodrigo Filo.

• 13:51Speaker 01

  I think it's Filo Rodrigo.

• 13:52Speaker 02

  Filo Rodrigo, excuse me. He-

• 13:55Speaker 01

  Let's just say Pedro.

• 13:56Speaker 02

  Pedro. He killed, I mean, I don't have the number at the top of my mind right now.

• 14:05Speaker 01

  Not dozens, but not like, single digits either, somewhere.

• 14:08Speaker 02

  An extraordinary amount of people that he deemed to be, he was a vigil- he called himself a vigilante killer. So he would go after rapists, he would go after murderers. He was doing, you know, cleansing society in his mind of-

• 14:23Speaker 01

  Like Dexter.

• 14:24Speaker 02

  Like Dexter, which is why we named the app that, the Brazilian Dexter. So he was, you know, do you remember what kind of killer that is? What type of serial killer?

• 14:34Speaker 01

  Process?

• 14:35Speaker 02

  Um, not, well, that's good that you said that. Try again, though.

• 14:39Speaker 01

  No.

• 14:40Speaker 02

  Mission oriented.

• 14:41Speaker 01

  Mission oriented, okay.

• 14:43Kaelyn Moore?

  Wow, I imagine that's like a rare kind of serial killer, a mission oriented one.

• 14:48Speaker 02

  Right, so they're, they're just the ones who are on a mission to do what they think needs to be done to clear society of what they think is plaguing it. And then it's obviously a very big ethical discussion because in doing that, he's, he's judge, jury and executioner. So he's making the decisions on people, right? He's carrying out the sentence and he himself is a murderer. So it gets very tricky, gets very gray. That case was absolutely fascinating. There's another case that we covered. It was a two parter called the Scissor Sisters, which is, it took place in Ireland, not that long ago either. And they attacked, it was sisters, two sisters who attacked, murdered, dismembered and like

• 15:28Speaker 02

  discarded the body parts of the man who had been raping their mother and who claimed that he was going to kill their mother.

• 15:37Speaker 01

  In front of them.

• 15:38Speaker 02

  In front of them.

• 15:39Speaker 01

  Like in the motion.

• 15:40Speaker 02

  He had their mother by the neck. He was dragging her and he said something to the effect of like, now, now it ends. Like now I'm going to take her life once and for all. And these two sisters snapped and they took a box cutter from the kitchen and a knife and they killed him.

• 15:57Speaker 01

  And the box cutter went through the body completely, like a samurai sword. No, I'm just kidding.

• 16:02Kaelyn Moore?

  I was gonna say, that's deep.

• 16:04Speaker 02

  It took three episodes to get him to stop perseverating on this. They used the box cutter as one of their weapons. A box cutter pops out, man, like.

• 16:14Kaelyn Moore?

  Oh, yeah. You can kill someone with a box cutter.

• 16:16Speaker 01

  Yes, but the, the thing said that like there was four inch wounds on his body.

• 16:22Speaker 02

  Well, they also used a knife, a kitchen knife.

• 16:24Speaker 01

  That's news to me.

• 16:25Speaker 02

  Okay. Maybe re-listen?

• 16:28Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 16:28Kaelyn Moore?

  Yeah, someone zoned out during that part.

• 16:30Speaker 01

  But they, they were, what, what would they, what would they be called? Like a self-defense killing that wound up being a product killing because they, they just dismembered the body, which made the intention.

• 16:39Speaker 02

  Exactly. So they didn't kill for the pleasure of killing. They killed because the product, it's not that they wanted to do anything with the body. So sometimes a product killer is somebody who wants to say have sex with the dead body or something. Killing is not what they're after. They're after the body.

• 16:54Kaelyn Moore?

  Oh, so when you say product, you mean they are after the product of the body corpse?

• 16:59Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 17:00Speaker 02

  Right. So whatever they're gonna, whatever nefarious, you know, plan they have with that dead body, they had to kill to get the body. So they're a product killer versus a process killer, somebody who enjoys actually murdering. The act of murdering itself is what compels them to murder. So that would be a process killer. The Scissor Sisters, they didn't have any grand plans with the body, but they had a grand plan in that moment to, if you believe their story, to rescue their mother from what they thought was going to be imminent death.

• 17:31Speaker 01

  They were also up for days doing drugs and drinking, so.

• 17:35Kaelyn Moore?

  Oh, because I was gonna ask if there was another, you made it sound like there was another side to the story.

• 17:40Speaker 02

  Always, always. And that's, I think, hopefully what we accomplish when we do Psychopedia is we, we dive into all of these like nuanced aspects of the case. It's never straightforward.

• 17:51Speaker 01

  She never, she doesn't leave a stone unturned during the.

• 17:55Kaelyn Moore?

  Wait, so I'm, sorry, I'm like really focusing on the Scissor Sisters because I haven't heard of this case and that's really interesting. They, what did they say they dismembered the body for? Was that to hide it?

• 18:05Speaker 02

  Yes, that's.

• 18:05Speaker 01

  They panicked.

• 18:07Speaker 02

  They panicked. They had the, they killed him. And then they stayed up, I think it was like 14 hours or something like that, dismembering him.

• 18:16Kaelyn Moore?

  Did the sisters go to jail? What was the result?

• 18:20Speaker 02

  They did. So they had different sentences based on the fact that they had different involvement in the actual murder and the, and the cover up. One of the sisters wound up confessing. Her sentence was lighter than the other sister. But you have, again, you have to listen to the two parter because their backstory, everything plays a part so that when you get to that culminating, you know, act. It doesn't make sense, but you at least have an understanding of what they endured and lived through.

• 18:53Kaelyn Moore?

  Yeah.

• 18:53Speaker 02

  Prior to that, they were both abused.

• 18:55Speaker 01

  It's contextualized. It's not, she doesn't just come on here and go, so this, uh, this guy was like threatening a woman and her daughters were there and they just killed him, then they cut his body up. And like, man, it was so crazy.

• 19:05Speaker 02

  Right.

• 19:05Kaelyn Moore?

  Totally.

• 19:06Speaker 01

  River.

• 19:07Kaelyn Moore?

  That's the way to do it. I mean, that's something that like, even with heart starts pounding is like so important to the show is just adding context. Like, well, even, I tried to look up laws that had been passed at the time and like culturally, what was going on, like what the, the episode that comes to mind that I did, that's probably the most in line with psychopedia is the Chi-jeon family. I don't know if you've heard of them, they're the South Korean family. They were like a gang, they weren't related, but is this guy, this group of guys in their twenties, it, the whole thing almost plays out like a Coen Brothers comedy because they were so dumb, but they were still able to kill people. But they decided that they were really fed up with the wealth disparity that was going on in Korea in the nineties.

• 19:49Kaelyn Moore?

  They kind of grew up in the Gangnam district, Gangnam style, like that popular song, that was like a real thing where all of a sudden wealth exploded and some people got really rich and they would dress in this Gangnam style. And to combat this wealth inequality, they decided that they were going to literally eat the rich. Their plan was kill rich people and barbecue them. Like they bought this house in the, uh, Bulgatmyeon district of South Korea and they outfitted the basement to have a barbecue and a jail cell and it was horrible. And then one of them got a list from his friend of these people that spent a lot of money at this department store. So, and that was like their rich people that they were going to go after.

• 20:33Kaelyn Moore?

  Like, that's all the research they did into it. But to, in order to, to commit those crimes, they were going to practice on poor people. So of course they get caught before they actually get to killing any rich people and the only people that they kill are like middle class and poor people.

• 20:52Kaelyn Moore?

  But it's important to know at the time, like, there was this influx of these movies coming in from Hong Kong, these like gritty noirs that were really like influencing the guy who led the group. He wanted to look like he was one of those gang leaders from these like gritty noir gangster movies. And then also, the wealth inequality that was happening at the time was like a huge catalyst for him. And it doesn't excuse any of his behavior, but it really, I think, paints a picture of why this happened.

• 21:22Speaker 01

  Yeah, it informs it. That's all she, we do, or she does is just like, there's no justification, there's no moral judgment on, you know, the people who contributed to this thing. It's just like, here are the facts. Some of them definitely contributed, but they're all relevant in one way or another. She, there's no like, there's just no fat on the script when she comes in.

• 21:44Kaelyn Moore?

  Wait, so I can't, I actually want to rewind like back to what you were saying earlier Slater with, you're an investigator for your family's law firm? Because when you said that, I made a note of it to ask what that looks like. Cause I haven't, I'm just not super familiar with that. So what, like, what does that entail?

• 22:02Speaker 01

  I'm gonna, sorry, just real quick. She didn't say it before. I don't know if she's gonna say it now. She makes it seem like they're just a little rinky dink law firm that just happens to like do these things.

• 22:13Kaelyn Moore?

  A little Saul Goodman.

• 22:14Speaker 01

  They handle all of the sexual assault cases for the Catholic Church, the prison system, the Boy Scouts of America. It's, it's massive. And the amount of people that they're helping get justice for what happened to them. They, they lobbied to have the statute of limitations lifted so that these people could get justice.

• 22:34Speaker 02

  Right. The, um, thank you for that.

• 22:36Speaker 01

  Lot of.

• 22:36Kaelyn Moore?

  Wow.

• 22:37Speaker 02

  Adult Survivors Act in New York. So.

• 22:39Kaelyn Moore?

  Okay.

• 22:40Speaker 02

  Yeah. So. Like Tank was saying, we, we go after the institutions. So we're, we're on the side of the good guy. We're on the plaintiff's side. So we represent the plaintiffs or the people who were injured. And we go after typically the big institutions that are responsible and that should have known that this was happening, especially in cases like Tank was saying, the Catholic Church, it's been going on for decades. They just-

• 23:02Speaker 01

  Centuries.

• 23:02Speaker 02

  Set hit centuries at that.

• 23:04Kaelyn Moore?

  Yeah.

• 23:04Speaker 02

  Um, when we say we investigate, so we find that, you know, the, the, the church system moves priests around, bounces them around from different, you know, jurisdiction to jurisdiction, if you will, church to church, rather than-

• 23:20Speaker 01

  Parish to parish.

• 23:21Speaker 02

  Yeah, they, they take-

• 23:22Kaelyn Moore?

  Listen, I'm from New England. I, uh, I was actually confirmed when I, I grew up Catholic and did not really, I don't know, I have, didn't really love my experience growing up Catholic, but I remember-

• 23:36Speaker 01

  Oh, sorry, go-

• 23:37Kaelyn Moore?

  Oh, no, what were you saying?

• 23:38Speaker 01

  Quick joke. Neil Brennan has a great joke about being raised Catholic. He goes, I think the sacraments are baptism, communion, confirmation, atheism?

• 23:48Kaelyn Moore?

  That's the pipeline. And that was, it was the pipeline for everyone that I got confirmed with too, because we got confirmed by, uh, I'm gonna mess up the name of who he was because I don't remember any of the titles, but he was like, not a bishop, but like the step above a bishop. He was really important within the church, like in that, like section of New England, like all of Connecticut. And he came and it was a huge deal and he remembered everyone's name and he like looked us in the eyes and he was like, you guys are so beautiful, da, da, da, da, da. Made us all feel really special. And afterwards, we were kind of buzzing. We were like, maybe Catholicism is really like, maybe we can, I don't know, pursue this in our lives. And then a few years later, we found out, he, he wasn't implicated

• 24:30Kaelyn Moore?

  in the sense that he was doing anything to children, but he was the guy responsible for moving a lot of the priests around in New England. He knew exactly what was going on and he would just move priests from church to church. And it-

• 24:44Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 24:44Kaelyn Moore?

  I, I've never felt so gross in my entire life.

• 24:46Speaker 02

  Yeah. And it's not obviously to suggest, obviously. I, I always feel the need to say this though. That every single priest is a pedophile.

• 24:54Kaelyn Moore?

  No, not at all.

• 24:55Speaker 02

  Is like moving players around. The ones that we work with, unfortunately, that's what we're up against.

• 25:01Speaker 01

  Do you guys go after the people who move the people, the priests around?

• 25:04Speaker 02

  That's the institution.

• 25:05Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 25:06Speaker 02

  So, um, so in terms of the investigative work behind that, you know, a lot of times we're just connecting those dots and we're proving, um, how far back it goes and the cover ups and who exactly is involved. Um, you know, it's too late often times to go after the individual people criminally. Whether the statute of limitation has passed, a lot of them are deceased now because we're going back decades and decades and decades. So that's some of the work we do. I oversee the Boy Scouts of America case at our firm. So we have, you know, 14,000, uh, mostly men, a few women who, who were sexually abused, whether they went with their brothers on like a weekend, you know, camping trip or whatever it may be, but by and large we, it's mostly male clients.

• 25:49Speaker 02

  And you just can't even imagine what these people have survived. And, you know, a lot of, a lot of the, um, cases that happened a really long time ago, nobody even had the vocabulary then to explain what was going on. You know, it was such a, um, a taboo thing, right? Like if your scout leader was abusing you, by and large, people would believe the scout leader because back in the day, children were not believed.

• 26:17Kaelyn Moore?

  Of course.

• 26:18Speaker 02

  And, and, and of course, these people, these abusers were smart in that they knew which children to target.

• 26:25Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 26:25Speaker 02

  They would target very vulnerable children, typically from broken homes, you know, without the, the stability of, say, two parents or a nuclear family. Um, so you also had kids from troubled backgrounds. Uh, it, it's one heartbreaking story, unfortunately, after another.

• 26:43Kaelyn Moore?

  Yeah.

• 26:44Speaker 02

  The light at the end of that tunnel in terms of my work, because I have a twin sister and she doesn't work at the firm. She's, she's always like, I don't know how you wake up in the morning and do this. Um, but the light at the end of the tunnel is where I am now because we're helping these survivors to seek justice and ideally to shed light on the pervasive issue of institutional sexual abuse where, where in schools, you know, foster homes, anywhere where you're going to have, you know, adults in authoritative positions and typically children beneath them.

• 27:17Speaker 02

  Unfortunately, that's where you're going to see this type of abuse.

• 27:21Kaelyn Moore?

  And do you, oh, I was gonna say, do you think it's because people specifically seek out those roles?

• 27:28Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 27:29Kaelyn Moore?

  Because they know there's going to be children there?

• 27:32Speaker 01

  It's, when she was talking about targeting kids who they know, it's not, it's not that the abuse, the abuse is bad. The abuse is horrific and unconscionable, but the way they get there with choosing those positions and then picking the kids they know they're less likely to say something. That should be a, a, a separate crime in my book.

• 27:51Speaker 02

  Well, there's also, you know, a grooming period almost always. So you're going to have children who come from hardly anything. And now there's this, you know, priest or scout leader or teacher, taking them to baseball games, buying them ice cream, you know? Oh, you can't afford your boy scouts uniform. I'll pay for it for you. So you, you as a child think, wow, like he, he's my hero.

• 28:13Kaelyn Moore?

  And you feel like a little indebted to them too, because they, they're putting money out for you and then they can use that later to guilt you.

• 28:20Speaker 02

  Yeah, that's how they get.

• 28:21Speaker 01

  I don't even know if they need to though.

• 28:22Speaker 02

  Children on the hook.

• 28:23Speaker 01

  Because these.

• 28:24Speaker 02

  It's just another tactic.

• 28:26Speaker 01

  Yeah, these kids have no frame of reference for what's appropriate and what's not. So.

• 28:30Kaelyn Moore?

  Yeah, that's true.

• 28:30Speaker 01

  Like most kids who grew up in an environment that was not good, you just think everyone grows up like that.

• 28:37Speaker 02

  Right. And the really heartbreaking part with respect to the church cases, and it's not just Catholic church, by the way. You know, my husband's rabbi was busted on a, on a Dateline sting by Chris Hansen, actually. So it's not just.

• 28:51Kaelyn Moore?

  No way. Wow. Okay. We have to talk about that.

• 28:54Speaker 02

  We had Chris Hansen on Psychopedia and I brought it up thinking he would like not remember because how many hundreds, if not thousands of, you know, perpetrators has he gone after? After he remembered, he's like, that was our 75th episode.

• 29:08Speaker 01

  But there was also some more to that because the guy really wanted the episode killed. And he's like, you're going to meet me here, sit down over here and this is what's going to happen. And Chris was like. Who like?

• 29:20Speaker 02

  You don't tell me.

• 29:21Speaker 01

  You're the one that we have on camera.

• 29:24Kaelyn Moore?

  So you're, yeah, your husband's rabbi showed up to a house on camera, not knowing he was on camera with the intention of like criminal conduct with the mind.

• 29:33Speaker 02

  Yeah, he showed up. So what happened was they busted him in a chat room, which is often how they find these perpetrators. And he was talking to who he believed to be a 15 year old boy. Of course, it wasn't. It was an undercover, you know, agent. Um, he showed up at this person's home. It wasn't. It was like a sting house with a pack of wine coolers. And when he showed up, there was Chris Hansen in the kitchen with his camera crew. Um, and yeah, and that was my husband's rabbi. So it doesn't just happen in the church is my, is my point, but I think probably the hardest thing to see happen, one of the hardest things is just the loss of faith and religion for children

• 30:16Speaker 02

  who were raised to believe so strongly in God and higher purpose, higher beings.

• 30:21Speaker 01

  The betrayal.

• 30:22Speaker 02

  The betrayal. And a lot of times these abusers would tell the children, this is, this is God's will. You know, God, God put us together like this for a reason. So go with it because this is God's will. So then they grow up thinking that this is, you know, part of God's plan. It just gets so complex and heartbreaking and the downstream effects of that type of rhetoric. I mean, I'm not, I don't want to say that they, they, they never come out of it because survivors are very strong, which is what I've learned. Um, but they carry it with them forever.

• 30:55Speaker 01

  Yeah, fracture of the psyche in that is, I mean, shattered. It's not like a couple of pieces that you might be able to put back together.

• 31:03Kaelyn Moore?

  Yeah. Well, it's because it's like everything you thought you knew. And then to find out actually it was a lie, especially when it comes to, I don't know, believing in God too. And you think that this is what happens to everyone. And then you realize you were just being lied to and that, like ultimately, it doesn't have anything to do with your relationship to God. And so I would hope those people could, if they were called to, could pursue it outside of that too. But yeah.

• 31:27Speaker 01

  Should we tell her about the, the case we just did with the, the husband and the wife?

• 31:32Speaker 02

  Which case, I'm sorry, I edited like three episodes this morning.

• 31:35Speaker 01

  The one where at like 70 years old, it came out that the guy was-

• 31:38Speaker 02

  Oh, well, that's coming out next week.

• 31:41Speaker 01

  It's just one of the, it's one of my favorite cases we've ever done. Not favorite, that sounds weird.

• 31:46Speaker 02

  No, we know what you mean. We're-

• 31:47Kaelyn Moore?

  But like most, most gripping.

• 31:49Speaker 01

  It was just, it was a guy who was married to a woman for 50 years.

• 31:54Speaker 02

  I'll say his name because-

• 31:55Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah, yeah.

• 31:56Speaker 02

  Kaelyn's audience are voracious true crime people.

• 31:59Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 32:00Speaker 02

  Dominique Pellicot in France and his wife Giselle, or soon to be ex-wife.

• 32:05Speaker 01

  And, and he was drugging her and having people come rape her and videotaping it for like 10 years.

• 32:15Kaelyn Moore?

  And she had no idea.

• 32:16Speaker 02

  From age, approximately age 60 to 70 years old, okay? They had, uh, three children, they have three children together, seven grandchildren, 50-year marriage, and for the last decade of it, unbeknownst to Giselle.

• 32:32Speaker 01

  Except for the, she was having some effects of memory loss and whatever.

• 32:35Speaker 02

  She was having symptoms of something and she didn't know what. She was having memory loss, she was having gynecological issues.

• 32:43Kaelyn Moore?

  Yeah.

• 32:44Speaker 02

  And for 10 years, nobody knew what was going on. I, I, you know, I truly also believe that the medical, you know, industry failed her big time because there were so many red flags of sexual abuse and nobody really took that step.

• 32:55Kaelyn Moore?

  Right.

• 32:56Speaker 02

  But for 10 years, he was drugging her on a nightly basis, setting up video cameras, inviting men over who he met online to come over and rape his wife while he videotaped. First, for a decade.

• 33:11Speaker 01

  And the, the reason I brought that up is because you mentioned the word betrayal. Maybe, maybe it's not my favorite, it's the most, that's the most devastating betrayal we've ever covered.

• 33:21Speaker 02

  It's just beyond, but it also speaks to something else that we often explore in Psychopedia, which is that duality of people like that, that like psychopathic ability to show the world a forward-facing, you know, persona, but then behind closed doors to be somebody entirely different.

• 33:39Kaelyn Moore?

  Yeah.

• 33:40Speaker 02

  That's terrifying. Jerry Bruto is a serial killer that we covered. He had a fast food meal with his children and his mother upstairs in his home moments after murdering a woman in the basement beneath them, severing her foot so that he could keep it as a trophy to masturbate to, like, which he held on to for months. Um, but that duality going upstairs like, hey, kids, you got the food. Great. How was your day? How was school? How was this? How was that? And there's a

• 34:10Speaker 01

  Honey, do you know how to cook feet?

• 34:12Kaelyn Moore?

  Oh, my gosh.

• 34:13Speaker 02

  In your basement that you're having, you're raping. It's just that duality. It's horrific and fascinating.

• 34:22Kaelyn Moore?

  Well, you, so I want to ask you this then, because you spend all day working with the survivors of sexual abuse. A lot of them, it happened as children and then you're going home and you're watching true crime docs and you're researching this stuff for psychopedia. And it's all really heavy, like,

• 34:40Speaker 01

  She's sick.

• 34:41Kaelyn Moore?

  Do you feel like, I mean, we're, we're probably all sick a little bit in general, but like, what is that like for you? Do you feel like you just have a really high tolerance? Because like your family's been involved in this for a while and you grew up around it? Or can you just like shut off certain parts of your brain?

• 34:56Speaker 02

  Sure. I mean, I'm very protective of our staff. So I, you know, because I know that, you know, it is difficult. Um, so we always check in with our staff to see how they're doing. Our office in California has like yoga Wednesday, mental health Thursday, where we're all kind of taking care of each other out in California. Our New York office, I don't know why we don't do that in New York.

• 35:15Speaker 01

  New York is like, get the together.

• 35:18Speaker 02

  Um, but for me, it all comes down to truly believing that, you know, I'm on the right side of things. And that goes such a long way because, you know, I'm speaking to people. Sometimes I'm the first person that they've ever told their story to. That's a huge responsibility and, and, you know, I'm grateful to them that they trust me with that. So for me, I like to think I'm on the right side of things. So that's my nine to five sort of mental head state. And then afterwards for psychopedia, I am just, there's no way to put it. I am a true crime nerd. I am fascinated. Needed by all of it. I went to school for criminal justice and criminology. My whole life I knew I would do something with this.

• 36:02Speaker 02

  And I do think it's important to present to people, not just horrific stories, but to represent the victim, to give the victim a voice. So that's something that I'm passionate about in our episodes. So that helps me get through it because I like to shed light on the victim. And also to expose, like we've been saying, just what goes into a human being that turns like that or that becomes like that. And, you know, to that point, again, we're always saying on Psychopedia, I'm always saying perpetrators are not monsters. They're human beings. And the sooner we realize that human beings are capable of this, the sooner we can recognize the signs and ideally treat people and stop it from happening.

• 36:45Speaker 02

  They don't have like fangs and talons. They're not outward looking demons. They're flesh and blood. They're human beings. So let's learn about them and then ideally recognize the signs and prevent it from happening.

• 37:01Kaelyn Moore?

  Hmm. But that also makes it scarier because

• 37:03Speaker 02

  It does. And I hate that. You know, I don't want to scare people, but it is an awareness thing.

• 37:08Speaker 01

  It is what it is. I want to

• 37:09Kaelyn Moore?

  It's the world we live in. It just, this is just the world we live in. And it's actually not very common. Like I try to get that across is like, we're kind of morbidly indulging in some really scary stuff on Heart Starts Pounding, whether it's like theme park accidents or killers or just like, I don't know, really grotesque dark history. But at the end of the day, it's not so common that you need to actively fear it all the time. It's just sometimes interesting to take these morbid deep dives. And so it is, it is the world we live in that like people can have a head injury when they're 10 and like just turn down a certain path. This episode is brought to you by Primally Pure. I feel like every time I run out of a product in my bathroom, I have this moment where I go, okay, do I just order the same thing?

• 37:54Kaelyn Moore?

  Or do I finally make a better swap? And that thinking is exactly what got me into Primally Pure. They're a female founded brand that keeps it really simple. Fewer, better ingredients, and nothing you can't pronounce. I just got an order from Primally Pure and I am obsessed with their lip oil. I also got eucalyptus and lavender body butter, which has spa vibes for sure. If you want an easy starting point, their Clean Start Bundle is a great place to start. For under $50, you get three everyday essentials. Their best selling aluminum free deodorant, a mini body butter, and the lip oil that I love. It's also a really thoughtful gift if you know someone who's been wanting to clean up their routine. Use code HSP to get 15% off your Primally Pure purchase.

• 38:36Kaelyn Moore?

  That's W W W dot P R I M A L L Y P U R E dot com. And use code HSP at checkout for 15% off your order. But then it also, when you hear that, for me, it makes me kind of like look at everyone I know and be like, what? Like when you talk about duality, it's like, well, what's going on behind closed doors with?

• 38:57Speaker 02

  Yeah, and you don't, you don't want to live in fear like that either. You just want to be aware, you know? When you're walking to your car at night, Kaylin especially, you know, you're aware, right? You're not going to not go out at night and run the errands that you need to run. But when you're walking to your car in the parking lot, you're aware.

• 39:13Kaelyn Moore?

  Yeah, you're just aware of your surroundings. You know where the exits are. Yeah.

• 39:17Speaker 02

  Exactly.

• 39:18Speaker 01

  I want to add one thing to what you said before, if I may mansplain.

• 39:21Speaker 02

  You may mansplain away.

• 39:23Kaelyn Moore?

  Yeah, please.

• 39:24Speaker 01

  From an outsider's perspective, looking in,

• 39:28Speaker 01

  how does she not get overwhelmed by it? I think she just does it for the right reasons. She's not, she doesn't like that this stuff happens. She doesn't think it's cool or fun or whatever. But the way she's programmed, she's been like this since she was like,

• 39:42Kaelyn Moore?

  Yeah.

• 39:43Speaker 01

  An infant. She came out and was like, eh, instead of crying.

• 39:46Kaelyn Moore?

  It's interesting because, so my dad, like a little background is my dad was a 911 dispatcher. Same, same kind of reason, like you're on the right side. You're helping you want I grew up in a small town and so he wanted to you know just kind of be the person that people could call for help and I remember this was when I was in high school like dinner time he would come home from work and just stare at his plate of food like unable to speak some nights like the even though he felt like he was doing it for the right reasons and he loved that he was helping people and you know you're you're helping emergency services get there really fast like you're saving lives but there were things that happened that affected him so deeply like I don't even now 15 years later I don't know

• 40:30Kaelyn Moore?

  that he's like fully recovered from some of the calls he got and he won't even tell me about some of the phone calls he got because they were so intense so it really does take a mental health toll on people to work in this space.

• 40:41Speaker 02

  And you do have to take care of yourself whatever that means for you I also have my form of release you know what I mean yeah I've I've I've talked about this on psychobedia I've had to go in my backyard and touch grass before.

• 40:53Speaker 01

  Literally.

• 40:54Kaelyn Moore?

  Literally touch grass.

• 40:55Speaker 02

  Like literally touch grass we we were researching the Gilgo Beach the Long Island serial killer and pulled like I mean I think I was up for like 40 hours straight or something insane like with all this research and it was just so awful all these victims in our backyard quite literally.

• 41:13Kaelyn Moore?

  Yeah, because you guys are in Long Island.

• 41:14Speaker 02

  We're on Long Island.

• 41:15Kaelyn Moore?

  You were there when it was happening when he was getting caught.

• 41:17Speaker 01

  So well, that's what happened. We had another case scheduled and then it came out that he got arrested and that was she just.

• 41:24Kaelyn Moore?

  Wow.

• 41:25Speaker 01

  But she she's good at processing what she finds I think through the writing and through that because writing is obviously very therapeutic so I think the information she gets comes out that way like I don't know if you know this theory but it's not a theory it's like accepted as fact pretty much that the reason that World War II vets had such lower cases of PTSD was because they were on a ship for two months coming home with their fellow soldiers talking about what happened processing it sitting with it communing with each other over what happened whereas in Vietnam they get sent back you know and I would have done the same thing. If I was in Vietnam and they said, hey, you can see your family in 16 hours. Do you want to do that? Or do you want to do the long way?

• 42:10Speaker 01

  Like, I'm going, I'm going fast, but then you're back in the world. Like Jerry Brudos, you just murdered somebody downstairs and now you're eating dinner with your family like these guys were in and women were in the worst possible scenario. And then it's boom, back in. So time and expression, we talk, you know, we talk about what's going on, not during, but after. And it's very apparent to me that she hasn't gotten lost in the case. Once she tells me about the research, she takes our time, she's cries, breaks, you know?

• 42:43Speaker 02

  Right.

• 42:44Kaelyn Moore?

  Yeah, I actually hadn't thought about it that way. That's really interesting, both from just like a research perspective and as like people who are victims of something horrible happening and then having to come back. Cause you, you hear stories of like, even like Elizabeth Smart or these people who get kidnapped and are kept away in like a totally controlled, different environment for years. And then they get released and they're just back home. Like, how do you readjust to anything? I hadn't heard about that with World War II vets, which is interesting. I also, I would wonder how much of it too was just in the 50s and 60s. You didn't talk about, hey, I'm having war flashbacks.

• 43:25Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 43:26Speaker 01

  Well, me, I don't, I think that, yes, that was definitely part of it culturally. But it also was like, there just wasn't as many occurrences or instances of it. There was also a lot of drugs in Vietnam. That's just one theory, but I know from being in recovery myself,

• 43:41Speaker 01

  being able to speak to someone who understands what you've been through and, and you can tell they know because they speak the same language as you.

• 43:47Speaker 02

  Right.

• 43:47Speaker 01

  They use the same words, they make the same facial expressions. Someone trying to tell me that, you know, like a counselor who's never been an addict or an active addict before, they have their place, of course, but not with me. Like I have no use for that because I know that you don't know what we're going through. And when it's life and death, the, the herd instinct being tapped into is paramount. Very, very important.

• 44:13Speaker 02

  That's interesting. That's why the meetings are so helpful.

• 44:16Speaker 01

  That's, you know, that's one of the general consensuses of the medical community is that it taps into man's herd instinct, which is, it's not more important than sex or food, but it's up there. Like, we wouldn't be where we are today if we didn't know how to work together.

• 44:30Kaelyn Moore?

  Yeah, you need community. You need like a social aspect. We're social people. Definitely. Yeah. No, I think that makes a lot of sense. Um, one thing I wanted to ask, actually, because I was thinking about that as you were kind of walking me through some of the cases. I was listening to an episode tank where you were saying specifically, uh, which we kind of talked about, like, you're maybe only one step away from being one of the people in your episodes, maybe as a victim, but also as a perpetrator. Like there are-

• 44:57Speaker 01

  More the perpetrator, yeah.

• 44:58Kaelyn Moore?

  Yeah, there are like times where it could be like, oh my God, I almost fell off a swing when I was 10. Like, what would have happened? Like, I fell off my bike when I was eight and I hit my head really hard and I scratched up my whole face and I had a concussion and luckily, it wasn't a traumatic brain injury, but if I turned my head just a little bit more, you know, what could have happened?

• 45:15Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 45:16Kaelyn Moore?

  Have you ever gone through a case and specifically been like, oh, that person could have been me? Was there anyone that you, I don't know, just like almost saw yourself in?

• 45:27Speaker 01

  No.

• 45:29Speaker 02

  Perpetrator wise?

• 45:31Speaker 01

  There was, that stems mainly from me suffering with intrusive thoughts for a large part of my life.

• 45:37Kaelyn Moore?

  Oh, interesting.

• 45:39Speaker 01

  Yeah. So like we joke around, we made a video once, a sketch where it was like, you know, the perpetrator was a normal guy. He liked to work out. He was bald. You could tell he was in shape, but he didn't skip pizza night. He loved Jay-Z and I'm sitting there like, what?

• 45:54Kaelyn Moore?

  Yeah. They're describing me.

• 45:57Speaker 01

  Obviously it's never that extreme, but, um, what she said before about them not being monsters, they're people. That to me is terrifying because I'm one of the people who wants to other them and go, You're a monster. You're obviously a different breed of human.

• 46:13Kaelyn Moore?

  There's no way.

• 46:14Speaker 01

  Couldn't be. They're not. I often, I often thank my mom publicly on the podcast for not being abusive and overbearing and neglectful because that's a huge part of the puzzle for these people who grow up. Not the only part, but it is common to hear that these men who target women had a horrible relationship with their mother.

• 46:37Speaker 02

  Overbearing.

• 46:38Speaker 01

  Not just bad.

• 46:39Speaker 02

  Right.

• 46:40Speaker 01

  Like Robert Pickton, who, do you know the Robert Pickton?

• 46:43Kaelyn Moore?

  Yeah, I'm familiar.

• 46:44Speaker 01

  Yeah. The, the part in there where he saved up for a pig?

• 46:48Speaker 02

  A calf.

• 46:49Speaker 01

  He saved up for a calf and his mom just, you know, he came home one day looking for it. His pet.

• 46:54Speaker 02

  Was right.

• 46:55Speaker 01

  And it was strung up in the, the barn, gutted, bleeding out. She was just like, I got a good dollar for that, for that, was it?

• 47:04Speaker 02

  Yeah, good, good memory.

• 47:06Speaker 01

  I got a good dollar for that cow. Like you are evil and you're, you're unknowingly creating one of the worst people that's ever going to live.

• 47:15Speaker 02

  And I think the important thing too is like, there's never typically one thing you can put your finger on and say, he had an overbearing mother. So he, he obviously turned out to be a killer or this person fell off their swing and they got a TBI. So they are obviously going to be a killer.

• 47:28Kaelyn Moore?

  Yeah.

• 47:28Speaker 02

  It's not, it's not one thing. It's a lot of things that, that happened because I don't want somebody thinking, you know, if their kid fell off their scooter that they're

• 47:38Speaker 01

  No.

• 47:39Speaker 02

  They have a serial killer on their hands. That, that is not the takeaway here at all.

• 47:42Kaelyn Moore?

  Yeah, it's a, it's a whole mix of things.

• 47:44Speaker 02

  It's a whole mix of things. I, I've never identified with a perpetrator, but I, I empathize with.

• 47:53Speaker 01

  Neither have I.

• 47:53Speaker 02

  What they've gone through.

• 47:54Speaker 01

  I'm just always scared I'm going to.

• 47:56Speaker 02

  Right.

• 47:57Kaelyn Moore?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. That makes sense.

• 47:59Speaker 01

  But, but I also, I'm, I'm also very conscious and aware of the fact that, you know, when I got into the drunk driving accident, if my foot was depressed a half an inch more in the accelerator and I was a foot and a half over from where I hit the tree. I'd be dead. You know, I'd be going 25 miles per hour faster.

• 48:19Kaelyn Moore?

  Yeah.

• 48:19Speaker 01

  And it would have been more of a direct hit. Like I'm, that's, that fascinates me.

• 48:23Kaelyn Moore?

  Yeah.

• 48:23Speaker 01

  As much as these people do you, just how, how fragile life is. I've also experienced a lot of loss in my life. A lot of people have died that were close to me from a young age. So maybe that feeds into it as well.

• 48:36Kaelyn Moore?

  Yeah.

• 48:37Speaker 01

  But it, it kind of just keeps me on my toes. Not in a paranoid way, just like I'm, I'm almost constantly appreciative of the fact that I'm still alive.

• 48:45Kaelyn Moore?

  Yeah.

• 48:46Speaker 01

  Right now.

• 48:47Kaelyn Moore?

  I was thinking too, actually earlier today, cause when I was, I don't know, just thinking about you saying the thing about the killers, like on the flip side, I think there's stories that I'll tell on this show that have really unlikely survivors. Where people will be put in. So when I was telling you about the Chi-jeon family, the, the Korean family gang that was eating rich people. They kidnapped this one woman who they called Ms. Lee. For some reason, one of them, I think one of the guys in the group just had a crush on her and was like, you get to live, but you have to live with us and you're going to witness everything that's going to happen, but

• 49:23Speaker 01

  Oh my God.

• 49:23Kaelyn Moore?

  You get to like stick around. And she, I think she was like 26 at the time. She was pretty young and they'd killed her boyfriend.

• 49:32Kaelyn Moore?

  And she had the wherewithal to, one day they were all out in the back setting off fireworks because they were dumb. One guy blows up his hand and comes in and she's like, I'll come with you to the hospital. And she had the wherewithal to be like, this is my chance. And she takes him to the hospital. And as he's going into the, the room with the doctor, he like gives her the keys to the car and he's like, can you just hold on to everything? And she books it out of there and she knows to not go to the police precinct in the area. She knows that she has to drive to the like, all the way back up to Seoul, three hours away to go to the police precinct there because they're going to go to the, the closest police station.

• 50:08Speaker 02

  They got them in their pocket.

• 50:09Kaelyn Moore?

  And be like waiting for her. And so, yeah, and just in that moment, and she was so, the entire time, like scared to do anything, didn't know her place within the group and just saw her opportunity and took it. And I like, that's the stuff that really inspires me that like, we, we do have that inside of us. Like in a, in a moment of panic, we can make the right decision.

• 50:30Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 50:30Kaelyn Moore?

  And just survive. Like that, I don't know, that stuff really inspires me.

• 50:35Speaker 02

  We covered the case of Mary Vincent.

• 50:38Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 50:38Speaker 02

  Speaking of just somebody who's ability to survive just is astounding. This was in the seventies. She was hitchhiking and she was picked up by a man named Larry Singleton.

• 50:48Speaker 01

  With a veiny bulbous nose.

• 50:50Speaker 02

  With a veiny bulbous.

• 50:51Speaker 01

  Drinking alcohol out of a milk container.

• 50:53Speaker 02

  The details you remember.

• 50:55Kaelyn Moore?

  Gross. Yeah, you have a good memory.

• 50:57Speaker 02

  Honestly, his memory is, he's like an elephant. It's nuts. They, don't they have big, good memories?

• 51:03Kaelyn Moore?

  Yeah, they don't forget. Elephants don't forget.

• 51:04Speaker 01

  Why? Cause I'm huge and I have a gray shirt on right now?

• 51:08Speaker 02

  Yep, that's the only reason.

• 51:09Kaelyn Moore?

  Cause you are literally dressed like an elephant.

• 51:11Speaker 02

  Exactly. So.

• 51:14Speaker 01

  I can't do it.

• 51:14Speaker 02

  She was abducted by, by Larry Singleton and he took her out into the desert and he took a, I guess it was an axe.

• 51:23Speaker 01

  Hatchet.

• 51:24Speaker 02

  Hatchet, thank you. And he chopped off both of her arms. And then he threw her into a, some kind of like a, a tunnel type of thing that was.

• 51:35Speaker 01

  Reservoir, not reservoir, but like.

• 51:37Speaker 02

  Like, you know, those cylinder, I think it was like a tube of some kinds, but like.

• 51:43Speaker 01

  You know, where you gleam the cube?

• 51:45Speaker 02

  In a, in a valley, no less, like down, down, down, down, down.

• 51:48Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 51:49Speaker 02

  In the desert, completely naked because he had sexually assaulted her and all of this. Absolutely the most horrific story you've ever, ever heard. She somehow on the stubs of her arms because they were severed. Climbed fully naked out of this tube in a valley in a desert, climbed out of it, walked however far she had to walk to a street, had the wherewithal to take the dirt and the mud to coagulate her streaming blood out of the wounds. She stopped the bleeding enough.

• 52:27Kaelyn Moore?

  Yeah.

• 52:27Speaker 02

  And, and, and waved down a car that, thank God, stopped for her and, and got her to a hospital and she survived.

• 52:36Kaelyn Moore?

  Holy smokes.

• 52:37Speaker 02

  And, and was able to provide a composite sketch.

• 52:41Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 52:41Speaker 02

  Which generally speaking, those are very ineffective with identifying perpetrators. But in this case, a neighbor recognized Larry Singleton from her description to a composite sketch artist and they were able to bust him.

• 52:54Kaelyn Moore?

  Had he ever done anything like that before or was this?

• 52:57Speaker 02

  He had raped a sex worker in the past, but I think this was the first time, if memory serves me correctly, that he, he did something that outrageously depraved. I mean,

• 53:12Kaelyn Moore?

  Wow.

• 53:13Speaker 02

  Sex is outrageously depraved, but you know, chopping off her limbs and, and discarding her in the desert was just, I mean, mind blowing.

• 53:22Speaker 01

  I mean, he definitely thought she was going to die from loss of blood.

• 53:24Speaker 02

  Absolutely.

• 53:24Speaker 01

  Hundred percent.

• 53:25Speaker 02

  Um, yeah. Uh, she didn't, right?

• 53:27Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah.

• 53:28Speaker 02

  Like the fact that she survived, but she had this, so many survival instincts to kick in to just like pull herself out to keep going, to clog her wounds with mud and dirt.

• 53:41Kaelyn Moore?

  Yeah. You start remembering things from your past of like, oh my God, in seventh grade biology, they said that dirt and mud can like stop the bleeding and.

• 53:51Speaker 02

  Right. And she heard, I believe she heard what she said was like a voice telling her, if you don't go on to survive and nab this guy, he will do this again. So she also had, like. Other people in mind, like I have to survive.

• 54:08Speaker 01

  A species survival.

• 54:09Speaker 02

  Right, to prevent this from happening again.

• 54:11Kaelyn Moore?

  Wow. I mean, have you heard of the third man syndrome? That really makes me think of third man syndrome. That's something that we've covered on the podcast and ever since I covered it, I have so many people write in to me that they've experienced this. And it's in moments of survival like that where it's life or death. It's a lot of car accidents. I get a lot of people that write in about car accidents and they'll hear a supernatural voice kind of telling them something.

• 54:38Speaker 01

  And it's not, it's not their voice, but a lot of times, yeah, they'll see someone.

• 54:41Kaelyn Moore?

  And a lot of times the person they see comes to them and says that they're an EMT. So like they'll be at a car wreck and EMT will come up to them and be like, I'm just going to stop the bleeding. And when the actual EMTs show up, the person who was in the accident will tell them about the other EMT and no witnesses will have seen this person.

• 54:58Speaker 02

  Wow.

• 54:59Kaelyn Moore?

  And a lot of times too, it's someone they know. It'll, it's someone they know that has already passed away. So it'll be like grandparents, parents that have passed away. And like as the car is still spinning, like I got one story this week from a girl who I'm including it in a listener tales episode. But her grandma or grandpa showed up in the car as it was spinning out. She's about to spin off of the side of this bridge. And he goes duck down underneath the steering wheel and put your head, like tuck your head in because you don't want the engine to come through the car and kill you. And she did that. And when the tow company got there, they were like, we don't know how you survived. Like I've seen accidents like this before. The driver never survives. And she was like, yeah, someone told me to like duck down and do this very specific thing.

• 55:44Kaelyn Moore?

  And it was crazy. It like, no one believed it happened, but I believe it happened. So, but yeah, you were saying when, when she heard the voice. Yeah. There is something that kicks in when we're like trying to survive. Call it supernatural. I like to call it supernatural. I don't know if your listeners or you guys believe in the supernatural, but I think it's something.

• 56:03Speaker 01

  Can I tell a spooky story?

• 56:05Speaker 02

  I think there's probably no better audience.

• 56:07Speaker 01

  Want to hear a spooky story?

• 56:08Kaelyn Moore?

  My audience loves nothing more than spooky stories.

• 56:12Speaker 01

  So.

• 56:14Speaker 01

  May 12th, or whatever it was of 2002, I was in full blown, like, just nightmare. Drinking, drugs, like, just all the time. And in such large quantities that it was like, if anybody ever stopped me, it was not, there was no talking my way out of it. So one night I was driving home from work. And I went to a bar after work, continued drinking. I was really drunk. And I get pulled over by a cop, right, like, maybe less than a half a mile from my house. See the lights go on and I'm like, oh, my God.

• 56:53Speaker 01

  Oh, my God. So pull over. I rolled the window down like this much. That's our trick to not like, let people, you know, we think they're not going to smell the alcohol.

• 57:01Speaker 02

  Sir, do you know what I'm stopping you for?

• 57:03Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, no, I do. I do. So he goes, he goes, hey, um, he walks over, he goes, whoa, how much have you had to drink tonight? Two drinks, two drinks? He's like, he looked at me, he goes, I'm gonna ask you one more time. That was not a good start. Don't start by lying to me. Tell me. And he goes, how much have you had to drink tonight? I go, so much. I go, I don't even know the number, right? So he's like, all right, get out of the car. I'm gonna give you a field sobriety test. Gives me the eye thing with the, you know, touch the nose, fail it miserably, follow the pen with the eyes. My head turns drastically. And then he did the, the walking thing where you have to walk in a straight line. I took one step, almost fell over. And I remember him looking at me,

• 57:48Speaker 01

  looking down at his foot, shining the flashlight at me, down back at his foot, three or four times. And I knew in that moment, I was like, this guy is holding the fate of my life in his hands right now, on his shoe. And he's like, you know what? I'm gonna let you go. I'm gonna follow you home. If I ever, ever see you out here again, no questions asked, you're going to jail. And I was like, yeah, of course, no problem. The spooky part is that I memorized that cop's um number on his car and and what he looked like, like very, very detailed. And I knew a lot of cops in the town where I got pulled over from. That car number did not exist and there was no cop that fit that description in the precinct.

• 58:32Speaker 02

  What?

• 58:33Kaelyn Moore?

  Whoa.

• 58:33Speaker 01

  And I stopped drinking a week later.

• 58:36Kaelyn Moore?

  Was that like the moment that kind of made you stop?

• 58:39Speaker 01

  There were so many moments, but to answer your question briefly, no, um, there was just, it was one of many moments, but it is the moment that I look back on and think, if I had gotten taken in that night, my self-esteem would have gone even lower. I would have been even in even worse financial shape and I may not have ever come out of that. That was like the one lifeline that I needed.

• 59:01Speaker 02

  Wow.

• 59:02Speaker 01

  And I haven't drank since a week later, 22 years ago.

• 59:06Speaker 01

  I mean, I gave up on the fact that it didn't exist. I mean, I, I spent like, I worked at the Blue Hino in Huntington for years. I pulled into that parking lot every single day for five years, saw plenty of cop cars, never saw him and never saw that car number.

• 59:21Speaker 02

  Wow.

• 59:21Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 59:22Kaelyn Moore?

  Ghost cop. Wow.

• 59:24Speaker 02

  Ghost cop.

• 59:25Kaelyn Moore?

  Supernatural intervention.

• 59:27Speaker 01

  Maybe. Third man or second man.

• 59:29Kaelyn Moore?

  Third man, yeah, second man, a little less removed than the, the third man. But yeah, I, I don't know, like the universe just knowing what you need and giving that to you. It could, yeah, I don't know. It could be something spooky.

• 59:42Speaker 01

  Could be he retired the next day.

• 59:45Kaelyn Moore?

  Yeah. He was like, I'm retiring tomorrow. I really don't want to bring this guy in.

• 59:48Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 59:50Kaelyn Moore?

  I want to get a good night's sleep tonight.

• 59:52Speaker 02

  Exactly. That's a wild story. I never even heard that story before.

• 59:55Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 59:56Speaker 02

  It's crazy.

• 59:57Kaelyn Moore?

  Wow. Yeah. It's the same with the, the people with the EMTs. It's like that, just the EMT didn't exist. So they'll get the name of the person or they'll see like the license plate of the car and it just didn't exist.

• 1:00:10Speaker 01

  Yeah. Weird.

• 1:00:11Kaelyn Moore?

  Thank you so much for coming on. We're so happy to have you here.

• 1:00:16Speaker 01

  Us too. Thrilled to be here.

• 1:00:17Speaker 02

  Thank you so much.

• 1:00:17Kaelyn Moore?

  Where can everyone find you guys?

• 1:00:20Speaker 01

  Our address?

• 1:00:21Kaelyn Moore?

  Yeah. Where you guys, where you live?

• 1:00:25Speaker 01

  Tanks Sinatra, Tanks Good News, Influencers in the Wild.

• 1:00:28Speaker 02

  Psychopedia, you idiot.

• 1:00:29Speaker 01

  You think I'm not gonna get to that? I've been doing this for 10 years.

• 1:00:33Kaelyn Moore?

  Do all your personal stuff.

• 1:00:33Speaker 02

  Maybe lead with Psychopedia.

• 1:00:35Speaker 01

  It's not an option. Psychopedia Podcast, which is a true crime comedy podcast that we do together. And also, when you're pumping gas, you can see my face. And every time you see my face on a gas station pump nationwide, let that serve as a reminder. That's right, Psychopedia exists.

• 1:00:51Kaelyn Moore?

  What are you talking about when you're pumping gas? Like, it's your face on the gas?

• 1:00:55Speaker 01

  Tanks Good News, yeah.

• 1:00:57Speaker 02

  Yeah, your face, though.

• 1:00:58Speaker 01

  My face. And my voice. Yeah.

• 1:01:00Kaelyn Moore?

  Get that bag.

• 1:01:03Speaker 01

  But only listen to our episodes, obviously, after you've listened to all the Heart Starts Pounding episodes.

• 1:01:08Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:01:09Speaker 01

  At least three times.

• 1:01:10Kaelyn Moore?

  Totally. My audience is done with my show. They've all binged through the whole thing. I don't have that many episodes out, so they need more stuff.

• 1:01:15Speaker 02

  Psychopedia is on Instagram. We also have a Patreon as well. I have an Instagram page, Investigators Slater. Obviously, all the pages that Tank just mentioned for himself.

• 1:01:25Speaker 01

  Apple, Spotify, YouTube.

• 1:01:26Speaker 02

  Exactly. Yeah, wherever you listen to your podcasts, you can find Psychopedia. And also, we're on YouTube, so if you would like to watch us, that comes out the same day that Psychopedia is released, which is every Wednesday.

• 1:01:38Speaker 01

  And you can see all our cool studio stuff.

• 1:01:40Speaker 02

  Yeah, we got a pretty cool studio that we worked hard to build out. So, yeah, so come on YouTube or Apple, Spotify, wherever you listen to your podcasts.

• 1:01:49Kaelyn Moore?

  Thanks for coming on so much.

• 1:01:50Speaker 02

  Thank you so much for having us.

• 1:01:51Speaker 01

  And thanks, everyone, for listening to us.

• 1:01:53Speaker 02

  Bye.

• 1:01:54Speaker 01

  Bye.

• 1:01:58Kaelyn Moore?

  Do you want more Darkly Curious stories in your life? Sign up for our Patreon for free and get access to a rotating shelf of bonus content, our weekly Rogue Detecting Society newsletter, and the HSP Book Club. Paid members also get monthly bonus episodes and archive access, which I think is more than 40 episodes at this point. You also get a cool jinx sticker after your first three months. And you can check it all out with a free seven-day trial. Link in the bio or go to patreon.com backslash Heart Starts Pounding. But whatever you do, stay curious.