How People-Pleasing, Perfectionism, And Burnout Are Actually Trauma Responses With Dr. Thema

What’s really holding you back from the life you want? In this powerful conversation, Emma Grede sits down with Dr. Thema Bryant — psychologist, author, and pastor — to unpack the hidden stories, unresolved trauma, and self-sabotaging patterns that keep us from thriving. Together, they dive into: Why so many of us are standing on our own wings — and how to stop. The surprising ways fear of failure (and even fear of success) shapes our choices. Why women are conditioned to shrink their power — and how to reclaim it. The lingering scars of the pandemic we still haven’t healed. Practical tools for setting boundaries, rewriting old narratives, and living whole. Dr. Thema doesn’t just explain the psychology — she offers real steps for anyone ready to stop running, face the pain, and move from surviving to thriving. If you’ve ever felt exhausted, unworthy, or stuck, this episode will give you the clarity and courage to finally break free.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:09Emma Grede?

  There's something I come back to again and again on this show and in my own life. And it's the realisation that you cannot manifest true success if you're not whole. You can be in constant motion, you can build, create, lead, hustle, push. But if you haven't dealt with all your old stuff, if you're not taking accountability for your life, at some point, it all catches up with you. Now, I've lived this, I've built companies, taken risks, and I've raised four kids. And I've still had to confront my own anger, my trauma, and the parts of myself I didn't want to look at. Because healing for me hasn't been optional, it's been a non-negotiable. But here's the part that's harder to talk about. We don't always know how to start healing, or what healing even looks like. Especially when life is busy, complicated, and full of responsibility.

• 0:54Emma Grede?

  That's why I'm so excited to bring you today's guest, Dr. Tamer Bryant. Dr. Tamer is a clinical psychologist, a minister, and one of the most powerful voices I've ever heard when it comes to healing trauma, integrating your life and coming home to yourself. Her work is deep and layered. She brings the science and the soul. And she's helped so many people, myself included, rethink what it really means to grow. In this conversation, we talk about how trauma, big or small, shapes us. We get into perfectionism, fear, guilt, burnout, self-regiveness, and that very real struggle of trying to hold it all together while quietly falling apart. We talk about leadership and workplace trauma,

• 1:34Emma Grede?

  and what it means to show up as a whole person in environments that don't always allow for wholeness. Coming up, Dr. Tamer Bryant.

• 1:46Speaker 01

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• 2:27Speaker 01

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• 3:17Emma Grede?

  I just have to say I'm really incredibly happy to have you here today.

• 3:22Speaker 03

  Thank you.

• 3:22Emma Grede?

  It feels like just a long time coming, and I have so many questions to ask you.

• 3:28Speaker 03

  Oh, wonderful.

• 3:29Emma Grede?

  I've said it already, but I'm going to try to not turn it into my own personal therapy session.

• 3:33Speaker 03

  Well, I bet the questions you have, many people have. So even if it is some of what's coming from your heart, I think it will connect.

• 3:41Emma Grede?

  You know what? I really, really hope so. And that kind of brings me to my start because one of my strong beliefs is that I really believe that success is well within all of our grasp, right? We can all be successful. But there's often so much that will stand in our way that we're either not ready to face or we haven't quite figured out what it is. And I really wanted to talk to you today about baggage and unresolved issues and how people even begin to identify what might be holding them back. And I wonder if you would start there. Like, how do you even start to understand what might be stopping you from living the life of your dreams?

• 4:18Speaker 03

  Yeah. A part of what can help us is to imagine ourselves in this other place. To say, what a success to me. And then if I were to see myself successful, what comes up? What are my concerns about what life would look like when I am successful? And then we'll start to unwrap, what are some of the reasons why we're holding ourselves back? Because we're worried about what will happen in those places, right? That I may get the opportunity, but then not be prepared. Or I may get the opportunity and then people will judge me and think I'm one of those people. Or I may get the opportunity and then find out it's not fulfilling.

• 5:02Speaker 03

  Or maybe it's gonna block me from these other things that I'm interested in, in life. And so our imagining and vision work helps to reveal both our hopes and our fears.

• 5:14Emma Grede?

  And what is that? Is that self-preservation? Like, why do we do that so much?

• 5:19Speaker 03

  Well, a big part of it is we like to control outcomes. Most of us don't like to be surprised, right?

• 5:26Emma Grede?

  No, definitely not.

• 5:27Speaker 03

  We, we like to go things, go after things that feel like a sure thing, right? If, if I don't believe I can get it, like, why try? Whereas for many of us to be successful, you have to say, what's the worst thing that can happen is I get a no. And so what, right? I can like take the no, shake it off and, and try again. And maybe get some feedback to know what made it a no, because there may be something I can work on.

• 5:51Emma Grede?

  Why is no so hard for so many of us, both to, both to hear, but also to say?

• 5:56Speaker 03

  Yeah, part of it, uh, in terms of hearing is it can confirm the self-rejection or the insecurity we have. Like if I feel good about myself and someone tells me no, now just say like, so what? Or they're missing out on a good thing. But if part of me is wondering, am I enough? Then professionally or socially, if someone gives me a no, it hits at the core

• 6:21Emma Grede?

  Oh, yeah.

• 6:21Speaker 03

  of my unworthiness, right? That they must have seen through me and discovered I'm not enough. And because it hurts so much. That's why it's hard for many of us to say no. And we become conflict avoidant, which can be a real problem in the workplace, especially if you're the leader. Right? Then you have to be willing to say the hard thing. But we may think about times we were hurt, we were disappointed. And don't realize that by putting it off, we're actually making it worse.

• 6:51Emma Grede?

  And I feel that so much because I think a lot of people would feel like if they're conflict avoidant. Like, that's a really good thing. Like, I don't want to be in conflict. But what happens when you're constantly going around avoiding conflict?

• 7:03Speaker 03

  Yes. When you constantly avoid it, then people get the sense no one's minding the shop. So now everyone has to be out for themselves. It becomes competitive and secretive. Because, for example, some people who are conflict avoidant will agree with whoever's sitting in front of them. And so then that person thinks like, oh, good, you're on my side, you're on my team. And they go back and then it becomes clear that you've basically said that to everyone. So it's meaningless.

• 7:32Emma Grede?

  Yeah. No, that makes so much sense to me. How do you even begin to start unpacking your emotional baggage? And the things that are stopping you from doing what you need to do?

• 7:44Speaker 03

  Yeah. So we start to look at what are our core beliefs? And initially, we can do that by looking at our behaviors. Right? What are the things that I do that sabotage me? Right? What are the ways I'm standing in my way? And then if we were doing like a cognitive model, we would say like thoughts, feelings, behavior. So the behavior may be, I always wait to the last minute to do some project or assignment.

• 8:13Emma Grede?

  That is so me. I like to say I work better under pressure, but maybe that's not it.

• 8:18Speaker 03

  I will say it can reinforce it, right? Because I mean, I've had that experience too, where you're like, I did it at the last minute and it turned out great. So like, right? The way I'll challenge myself is if it turned out that good last minute. Imagine how much better it could have been if I gave it time, right? So, you know, we start to look at this phrase of like, who lied to me? So when I have this like negative belief about myself, it came from somewhere. And that's an important piece because sometimes we're just beating ourselves up and saying like, it doesn't make sense, or why would I do that, or I'm being ridiculous.

• 8:59Emma Grede?

  Hmm.

• 8:59Speaker 03

  But I always say, if you take me back far enough in your story, it will make sense.

• 9:05Emma Grede?

  And you'll find the reason.

• 9:07Speaker 03

  Stories we were told from the people who raised us, from teachers, from peers. And we took that in and then have been operating as if it's true.

• 9:16Emma Grede?

  And then keep telling ourselves those stories. Because I think about this all the time, like the ideas and the stories that we tell ourselves constantly. And I think that one of my, my habits and what I've tried to do in my life is to speak to myself well. Right? Like just the, the stories that I tell me every day. I try to get really purposeful and intentional about that. But what do you do if that's just not your default? If they, because these things become so much a part of you. How do you just stop that type of behavior?

• 9:48Speaker 03

  So a big part of it is seeing what it's cost me.

• 9:52Emma Grede?

  Hmm.

• 9:53Speaker 03

  Right? So an example would be if I have the thought that I'm not going to be chosen for this job or for this project, right? I'm thinking that, I'm thinking that, I'm thinking that I show up either defensive or anxious, or I don't try my best because then it won't hurt as much, right? If I'm not selected. And so then I have gotten in my own way, I call it standing on my wings, right? So when I have taken myself out of the running, when I didn't bring my full self, what did it cost me, you know? And am I tired yet of paying that cost? Or is that comfortable? Sometimes I'm sabotaging myself and I'm really trying to stay in that box

• 10:38Speaker 03

  because it's comfortable and it's familiar. You know, being a, a big fish in a little pond can feel good.

• 10:43Emma Grede?

  Yeah.

• 10:44Speaker 03

  Right? I'm like, I'm the smartest person I know. Well, get around some other smart people because iron sharpens iron. But if I'm insecure, I won't like that. It'll be uncomfortable to be in the presence of greatness.

• 10:56Emma Grede?

  Wow, that's a really big thing, standing on your own wings.

• 10:59Speaker 03

  Right.

• 11:00Emma Grede?

  What an idea to think that you could do that to yourself.

• 11:03Speaker 03

  Right, yes.

• 11:04Emma Grede?

  And we all do it, right?

• 11:05Speaker 03

  We do.

• 11:05Emma Grede?

  Do we all do it?

• 11:06Speaker 03

  Well, I will say there are some of us that get the message more to hide, and one of those groups being women.

• 11:12Emma Grede?

  Mm hmm.

• 11:12Speaker 03

  Right, so when we've done research studies with girls in school and even in college, we will be more likely to start a statement with, I think, and men will start it and say it as a fact. Or we won't raise our hands at all, so like that questioning ourselves.

• 11:27Emma Grede?

  And what is, that's just cultural conditioning? That's just how we've been raised?

• 11:31Speaker 03

  That we are raised when we think about what are the messages we give girls, even like in terms of toys. Girls are given toys to care, take and cook, dolls and kitchens. And boys are given toys to like go and do, like trucks and tools. So you do and you take care of everyone else. So then the message we get is hide yourself, erase yourself, that you will be seen as a better woman if you don't have a lot of needs or demands, but that you're taking care of everyone else. Right, that's the message.

• 12:03Emma Grede?

  That's the message from childhood.

• 12:05Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 12:05Emma Grede?

  From two years old.

• 12:06Speaker 03

  Right, and I, I had a friend who was an engineering major in college, and he talked about, because he assisted the professor. Sometimes there's an unconscious bias where people don't even know they're doing it. But he noticed if a student was struggling in class and came and talked to the professor, if it was a male student, the professor would work with them, encourage them, help them. If it was a female student, the professor would say, maybe you're not cut out for this. You should think about a different major.

• 12:34Emma Grede?

  Wow.

• 12:34Speaker 03

  Right, like systematically each time.

• 12:37Emma Grede?

  Woven through the fabric of our society, that's what it is. So as women, how do we even begin? Because if, if society is somewhat hardwired and we are just following what's happening.

• 12:49Speaker 03

  Right.

• 12:50Emma Grede?

  Like, how do we, how do we even get around some of that stuff? Where do you even begin?

• 12:54Speaker 03

  So a part of it is getting in the environments or getting around people who like women with wings. Right, there are people.

• 13:02Emma Grede?

  Choosing your company really well, yes.

• 13:04Speaker 03

  Yes, so you can feel it out, like if I have to hide or shrink in your presence, then I want to minimize my time in that kind of space. Versus with other people, you tell them you're dreaming, they're like, awesome, sounds great.

• 13:17Emma Grede?

  Yeah, let's go.

• 13:18Speaker 03

  Yeah, yeah.

• 13:19Emma Grede?

  That's really good advice.

• 13:20Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 13:21Emma Grede?

  So you're like, it's all about who you surround yourself with.

• 13:23Speaker 03

  Definitely.

• 13:24Emma Grede?

  That makes so much sense. So in your work, what are some of the tools and the practices that help people begin to untangle those childhood wounds?

• 13:32Speaker 03

  So it is for us to recognize the lies, and the lies are based on like meaning making. We create stories, like you were saying, you try to tell yourself good stories. We create stories to try to make our lives make sense, right? So let's say you had a parent who abandoned you. Then you may say, if I was smarter, cuter, better, then they would have stayed, right? So now the story I'm going out in life with is I'm not lovable, I'm not easy to love, I'm not easy to choose, I'm not smart enough, and so now I'm, I'm living like that. So then I try to help people look at the root of the lie, the start of it. And then if I, if we can consider a different story.

• 14:17Speaker 03

  So maybe they're leaving had nothing to do with you, right? Because we always think about ourselves as the center.

• 14:23Emma Grede?

  Of course.

• 14:24Speaker 03

  Right, I'm the reason.

• 14:25Emma Grede?

  Yes.

• 14:25Speaker 03

  And so there are many different reasons people do what they do, and often it is out of their own wounds. And we may be affected by it, but we're not the cause of it. So if I can consider that as a possibility, then I can say, so now what?

• 14:43Emma Grede?

  Do you have to go back to your childhood? Because I know for so many people, that is, it's so painful, the idea of going back. And also you might not even want to drag up things that you think, well, that was in the past, but is that a, is that a prerequisite of healing? Like that you have to go back and unpack it?

• 15:00Speaker 03

  Yeah, so not for everyone, but it depends on how deep rooted it is. So some people, and this is how you can know it for yourself, some people just need skills training. So some of us were. Never taught how to negotiate around salary. Were never taught interviewing skills. So then if someone gives you those skills, you're like, awesome, I I apply it and I run with it. So I would say that going back is for those of us that even though you know what you're quote unquote supposed to do, you still have trouble doing.

• 15:30Emma Grede?

  And I love the way you bring it to such practical things, like negotiating your worth and thinking about your salary. Because what you're saying is that your inability to do some of those things can stem from things that happened a very long time ago, stories that you tell yourself that may not necessarily be true.

• 15:46Speaker 03

  That's right.

• 15:47Emma Grede?

  So if I was somebody that had, let's just go back to that neglectful parent, right? And those are the stories that you've been telling yourself. Again, how do you begin to say, and and perhaps those things were true, maybe you did have a neglectful parent. So I really just want to understand, like, how do you speak to your clients? And how do you speak to people about unpacking that and getting through it?

• 16:11Speaker 03

  Right. So a big part, there's, there's one approach to therapy, which is called narrative therapy. So with narrative therapy, you're re-storying your life. Now, some of us, because we've had things happen to us, the story we tell, we are a side character in our own lives. So when I'm a side character, I can recite to you what has been done to me, but I don't still feel I have voice or agency. So then I have to say, like, let's tell it this story again, where, yes, these people did these things. But like, now you have the pen in your hands. So now you get to make some choices and your choice does not have to align with their choice.

• 16:52Speaker 03

  Because sometimes we are treating ourselves based on how other people treated us, which still makes them the central character of our lives.

• 16:59Emma Grede?

  Wow, yeah. That is some really big.

• 17:02Speaker 03

  Right? So no, I don't have to keep, you know, let's say, you know, you were rejected or someone said you weren't a good writer or someone said you weren't attractive. How are you now living that confirms that, that gives that weight? Or like the radical revolutionary thing of even though all of these people treated me in this particular way, a part of me, that'd have to be my whole self, a part of me still believes that is not true.

• 17:31Emma Grede?

  That's a really big, that's a, I mean, that's a really big thing to start thinking about that. Some of it might not be true.

• 17:37Speaker 03

  Right, because, you know, we often work by evidence. So let's say you've had a series of bad relationships. You may then conclude like this is the best it can be for me. Right? No one's ever treated me well. Maybe some people get like the fairy tale, that's for them. But like, for whatever reason, I don't get that. So then that's when we start to settle. That's when we accept the breadcrumbs, because we're like, nothing better is coming. So let me hold on to this piece of a person who calls me after ten P M. Or comes by when they want to, or, you know, all because it's my, it's my best. And so if I can re-narrate the story, can I believe for what I have not yet seen?

• 18:21Emma Grede?

  And yes, the answer is you can. You absolutely can. Does everybody need therapy, do you think?

• 18:26Speaker 03

  I think everyone could benefit from it.

• 18:28Emma Grede?

  Yeah.

• 18:28Speaker 03

  You know, and when we say need, you know, people, some people can get through life. But what I like to say, and I think it's a part of your work, is do you want to survive? Or do you want to thrive? Right?

• 18:39Emma Grede?

  Absolutely.

• 18:40Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 18:40Emma Grede?

  Absolutely.

• 18:41Speaker 03

  So if you're good, just kind of going through the basics. And let me say, for some people, survival mode is an accomplishment. There may be been a number of things that like tried to squash your life. But if I want to live at my maximum, if I want to flourish, if I want to bloom, if I want to thrive, if I want more than what I have seen, not just well financially, emotionally, spiritually, then I want to invest time and effort into doing that work.

• 19:14Emma Grede?

  We spend a lot of time thinking about how to get more value out of the things we buy. But one of the biggest payments most people make every month is for housing. And historically, that's been left out of the rewards conversation. That's why BIL is such an interesting concept. As a BIL member, you can earn points on your housing payments, whether you rent or own. And those points can be redeemed towards things like flights, hotels, Lyft rides, Amazon dot com purchases, and Even future housing payments. And the membership goes beyond your housing payments. You can link any credit card or debit card to the Built app and earn points on eligible purchases at participating restaurants and other businesses in your neighborhood. The app also has a neighborhood concierge that can help you book a fitness class,

• 19:58Emma Grede?

  make a dinner reservation or schedule a lift while automatically applying your member benefits. Download the Built app and join the membership for where you live at joinbuilt.com/emma. That's J O I N B I L T dot com slash Emma. Use our link so they know we sent you.

• 20:19Speaker 04

  Hi, everyone. This is Kara Swisher.

• 20:20Speaker 05

  And I'm Scott Galloway.

• 20:21Speaker 04

  And we want to tell you about Pivot, our twice weekly podcast.

• 20:25Speaker 05

  That's right, Kara. What a thrill. It's a chance for us to break down all the big things happening in tech business and politics.

• 20:31Speaker 04

  Yes, and I keep you in check so people can make it through each episode, whether it's digging into constant changes in the world of AI and social media or trying to keep up with whatever the fuck Elon is doing. We're here to give you our take on all of that.

• 20:43Speaker 05

  Every Tuesday and Friday morning, we drop a new episode about some of the major stories of the moment.

• 20:48Speaker 04

  And Scott is a prediction machine gazing into his crystal ball to tell you about where it's all heading.

• 20:53Speaker 05

  That's right.

• 20:54Speaker 04

  So if that sounds like a good time for you, especially Mr. That's right, you can follow us on your favorite podcast app to get new episodes every week.

• 21:03Speaker 05

  Boom.

• 21:10Emma Grede?

  I want to talk to you about, you know, what I understand is the cornerstone of your work that's really, you know, all around this idea of trauma. And I think for so many of us, like, sometimes the just saying trauma feels traumatic. You know, it's like you may not want to admit that that's been a part of your life. But I also guess there are not all of us have had, like, deep rooted, deep seeded trauma. So I really want you to try to unpack a little bit the idea of how trauma can affect all of us.

• 21:38Speaker 03

  Yes, absolutely. So I want to first say there are, like, day to day stressors, things that are stressful, like.

• 21:46Emma Grede?

  Do you think trauma's thrown around, like, a little bit too much?

• 21:49Speaker 03

  Yeah, some people don't under. Understand, so if something is stressful, they'll say, I'm traumatized.

• 21:53Emma Grede?

  Yeah.

• 21:54Speaker 03

  Right? So I'll say, no, you're stressed. No, you're stressed out. It's been a bad day.

• 21:59Speaker 03

  Right? If like an hour later, you're, you know, all better than, yeah, that was stress.

• 22:03Emma Grede?

  Yeah.

• 22:04Speaker 03

  But trauma are these overwhelming experiences. Uh, they overwhelm our usual capacity to cope. So the regular types of stress, we can deal with. Like I have this role and this role, this responsibility and I can make it work. But then with trauma, it, the things that usually work for me are not working in this moment.

• 22:25Emma Grede?

  That's a really, it's a really great definition. You said the trauma overwhelms your capacity to cope.

• 22:30Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 22:30Emma Grede?

  That's when it's no longer within your reach to just get on with life.

• 22:34Speaker 03

  Right, absolutely. And that's why two people can go through the same thing. And some people develop like post-traumatic stress and some people don't.

• 22:44Emma Grede?

  Yeah, and that, you see that with siblings often, right? You grew up in the same house and you have very different experiences of the same parents or the same circumstance or whatever that might be.

• 22:54Speaker 03

  Yes, it's, you know, part of it can be personality, a part of it can be prior experiences. Cause some of us have cumulative effect, meaning we've had multiple traumas. So then the impact, you know, can be multiplied. It overwhelms your usual capacity to cope. Ongoing trauma can disrupt your sense of yourself. So you may have felt like, I know who I am, right? And then something happens and you're like, wait a minute, right? Like, so who am I? Cause my idea of myself, that would not have happened to me, right? So it can disrupt your sense of yourself. It makes it difficult for you to regulate your emotions. So those of us who have seen or been someone who goes from like one to 10, right?

• 23:37Emma Grede?

  Oh, I know those people.

• 23:38Speaker 03

  Right, yeah. You're like, wait, what happened?

• 23:42Emma Grede?

  I think I was one of those people, absolutely.

• 23:44Speaker 03

  Yes. And sometimes you're like, a- and sometimes what that is, is tolerating a lot. And so it's building, building, building. And so then when one more thing happens, boom. But the thing, the last thing that happened may not be a big thing, but you hit. Already been holding so much. Yeah.

• 24:02Emma Grede?

  Yeah, I mean, I feel like that was just part of my training. That was my default mode. And again, it's because there was so much going on all the time that was the regular course of our day. That, you know, the smallest thing would happen, one poor teacher would say the wrong thing and off.

• 24:21Speaker 03

  Right.

• 24:22Emma Grede?

  And it takes a lot to untrain that out of you.

• 24:25Speaker 03

  One of the things I do with people in therapy is help them to rank an event. Let's say on a scale one to ten, how offensive was it? Because some people make everything a ten. So then they have to respond at level ten over things that I would say are not drama worthy.

• 24:43Emma Grede?

  Right? That's a good tool.

• 24:44Speaker 03

  Some people don't like, they can't think of a three or four. Right? Like if someone didn't speak to them or looked at them wrong, they're like ten. That's not.

• 24:53Emma Grede?

  It's not a ten. That's a solid three right there.

• 24:59Emma Grede?

  That's a really good way to think about your response to things.

• 25:03Speaker 03

  Yes, it's like, does it match? Because when another thing that, well, one, when we respond like that to everything, it's exhausting to us. But two, people don't take us seriously. You're going off about everything, it becomes a non-event.

• 25:18Emma Grede?

  Yeah, I think that's what I realized as a kid, as a teenager. That not everything needed my maximum energy. And then when something was really wrong. As you said, nobody listened, nobody cared because you were always raging, right? And so it doesn't, it doesn't matter. I wanted to talk to you about some of the ways that trauma show up in your life. And I was thinking like, you know, self-blame, perfectionism, catastrophizing, defensiveness. These are all ways that trauma ultimately can manifest in our behaviors. How do you spot that stuff in yourself? Like in, in what other ways does trauma manifest itself in our lives and our behaviors?

• 26:00Speaker 03

  Yeah, so another one is difficulty trusting when we are like always.

• 26:07Emma Grede?

  Oh, I feel like you studied me. I have many of these. I need a pen and.

• 26:10Speaker 03

  Yes. So to get it down. But the that the great part is the self-awareness. Right, because some people are in such denial that they're like, I don't know who she's talking about.

• 26:20Emma Grede?

  Looking over the shoulder.

• 26:21Speaker 03

  Yeah, it's like, I hope y'all.

• 26:22Emma Grede?

  I know those people too.

• 26:24Speaker 03

  Yes, yeah. So it's a, yeah, it's a great awareness when you're like, mm, yeah, that sounds.

• 26:28Emma Grede?

  That'll be me.

• 26:29Speaker 03

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. So that difficulty trusting, when people have broken our trust, then we can enter into new places with that. We call it hyper vigilance.

• 26:39Emma Grede?

  Yes.

• 26:39Speaker 03

  Right, and so we are looking for the dishonor, looking for the disrespect, because we don't want to be caught by surprise. Right?

• 26:46Emma Grede?

  A lot of people don't realize that something like that is a big problem in their life. Because they're like, well, that's on me. I have a problem trusting people. But that will stand in the way of your best relationships, your greatest, you know, triumphs, like whatever it might be.

• 26:59Speaker 03

  Yes, one, one of the things I see sometimes when people come in for therapy, they're unpartnered and like the other parts of their life are successful. And they're like, I really, you know, want to meet someone. And then they'll describe for me like their process with people. And ah, it's just like eliminate, eliminate, because they're looking for like what's wrong. They're looking and it's not that you want to accept just anything, but there's a difference between standards and like being paranoid.

• 27:31Emma Grede?

  Yes.

• 27:31Speaker 03

  Right, yeah, some of us are standing in our way.

• 27:34Emma Grede?

  Well, and if you want to be in a happy, loving relationship, there's an element of you, you have to be open. You have to be fallible. You have to know what, you know, what's wrong with you so that you can meet somebody where they are.

• 27:45Speaker 03

  That's right, because that issue of intimacy is like being known, being seen, being valued. And if I'm perpetually performing, then there's no intimacy because I'm not letting anyone in.

• 27:58Emma Grede?

  Yeah.

• 27:59Speaker 03

  So, you know, it's risky and understandably, many people are afraid to take the risk. But the cost is then I end up isolated even though I desire connection.

• 28:09Emma Grede?

  So if you had to break it down, what are the three questions that we could ask ourselves to identify our trauma?

• 28:16Speaker 03

  I would say those, the three pieces would be how, if you didn't tell me how you felt about yourself.

• 28:25Speaker 03

  How would your care of yourself tell me how you feel about yourself? Because a lot of people say, I love myself. I love myself.

• 28:33Emma Grede?

  But do you take care of you?

• 28:34Speaker 03

  Right, exactly, right? So I look at your level of care to indicate, and that will include your boundary setting. It'll include your rest. It'll include your nutrition, right? Can I say like, I'm eating this because I love myself? I'm eating this because I want to live, right? So how do I take care of myself? Or am I more prone to self-neglect, self-erasure, self-abandonment? If I neglect myself, often that is unhealed trauma, right? A second one is around that emotional regulation. If I either get overwhelmed by my emotions on a regular basis, or some emotions are not acceptable to me,

• 29:18Speaker 03

  then I want to ask like, where'd that come from? And so I'll give, by way of example, this isn't a traumatic incident, but it's messaging, socializing. You know, I grew up in a family, in a community, where people would often say to kids, fix your face.

• 29:36Emma Grede?

  I had a Jamaican granddad that said, pick up your lip.

• 29:40Speaker 03

  And the message is like, you can't look

• 29:42Emma Grede?

  How you look, yeah, it's kind of distraught.

• 29:45Speaker 03

  You gotta look pleasant, grateful. And so now we're adults who mask. So then literally in therapy, if I say to someone, oh, that sounds like that upset you? No, it didn't. I don't care. Right? Because we're not allowed to feel it. So are there certain emotions that I am dehumanizing myself? Because humans feel, right? So if I can never be sad, if I can never be lonely, if I can never be angry, if I can never be embarrassed, right? Where's my humanity? I'm treating myself like a robot, right? And then the third one is around the relationships. So what is my capacity to develop and maintain mutual reciprocal relationships?

• 30:33Speaker 03

  Because a lot of us do the one sided relationship. You know, you're the strong one in your friendship circle, the strong one in your family. You're running things and you're, everything is like you're not vulnerable or open with anybody. Right? When you're struggling, you disappear, you self isolate and then show up again when you're shiny.

• 30:49Emma Grede?

  Oh, yeah.

• 30:50Speaker 03

  Right?

• 30:50Emma Grede?

  Yeah.

• 30:51Speaker 03

  So then that's not a relationship.

• 30:52Emma Grede?

  That's not it.

• 30:53Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 30:54Emma Grede?

  Those are, that is three really great questions to ask yourself.

• 30:58Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 30:59Emma Grede?

  That's super, super, super helpful.

• 31:01Speaker 03

  Cause we can.

• 31:02Emma Grede?

  How am I taking care of myself? That's a, I mean, that's a really deep question because that affects so many things in your life. And we're not talking about self care. We're not talking about skincare regime here. This is like the fundamentals of how you're looking after yourself. And then how do you emotionally regulate?

• 31:17Speaker 03

  Right.

• 31:18Emma Grede?

  And then what are your relationships like with others?

• 31:21Speaker 03

  That will let us know. When I say like, how am I doing? We usually say fine or blessed. But like, how am I doing with my emotions? How am I doing with my relationships? How am I doing with not abandoning myself?

• 31:34Emma Grede?

  Do you have a way, like a system of checking in on yourself that you do? Like using those three things or any things like, and how often would you do that? Just to make sure you're okay?

• 31:45Speaker 03

  I would say it's a good thing to check in with yourself in the morning. And then again, at the end of the day.

• 31:51Emma Grede?

  Every day?

• 31:52Speaker 03

  Every day, check in because losing yourself or losing sight of yourself can be subtle. And if you look up, you could have weeks, months, years pass when you were living like some other person. Right? Cause you're going through the motions of living. Right? So I want to slow down and check in.

• 32:14Emma Grede?

  Yeah. And if I think, I mean, just thinking about myself for a little while, there have been times in my life. I suffered tremendously with, you know, huge anger issues and, and did a lot of anger management and therapy. And, and as a result of, you know, childhood trauma. But I worked through a lot of that in my twenties, but it really takes some doing. And it takes constant remembering because whenever, uh, you know, I'm in a stressful situation or things get too much, that, that's the default, right? I can go back there in a second. It's the most familiar place for me.

• 32:48Speaker 03

  That's why we have to recognize like growing pains or like the stretching, healing is uncomfortable.

• 32:57Speaker 03

  Right? Healing will be unfamiliar.

• 32:59Emma Grede?

  Yeah.

• 32:59Speaker 03

  Cause your go to is the dysfunction, right?

• 33:02Emma Grede?

  And it's not one and done.

• 33:03Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 33:04Emma Grede?

  You don't get to deal with it at one point and then it goes away forever.

• 33:07Speaker 03

  Yeah, no, no, no.

• 33:08Emma Grede?

  That's not my experience.

• 33:09Speaker 03

  Right, whenever you feel stressed or something triggers you or awakens you, like you can go back to that. So I like to call it sacred pause, like before I respond, let me take a sacred pause to decide how I want to respond.

• 33:24Emma Grede?

  Oh yeah, that's something we can all learn. I mean, there's nothing like a breath and a little bit of silence to just quickly regulate.

• 33:31Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 33:31Emma Grede?

  That's what I do like during the day.

• 33:34Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 33:34Emma Grede?

  And it was like a cornerstone of anger management, just learning to not respond.

• 33:40Speaker 03

  Because the other way, we don't think we have a choice. We're like, I had to, they did this or they did that.

• 33:46Emma Grede?

  And you don't want to be caught on the back foot. You're like, I've got to go, otherwise I lost already, you know?

• 33:50Speaker 03

  Yeah, it's a war. So there's winners and losers and I'm not going to lose. So it's like, well, there's another way.

• 33:57Emma Grede?

  There is another way. And I, I mean, I feel like throughout my life, I've done different types of therapy. And a couple of years ago, I did like an intensive course, the Hoffman process, which maybe you know. And I wanted to ask you about things like that, like how much do you believe between the self-regulation and, and, and looking after yourself and checking in with yourself to, you know, regular weekly therapy or doing intensive courses? What do you believe is the most beneficial? What should people do? And, and is there any right answer or is it all so individual?

• 34:28Speaker 03

  Yeah. So I think everyone needs caring for their self-practices. And those, as we're saying, like need to be daily. Now, the amount of time I can give it will vary by day, right? So you want to also come up with like, uh, short ways of nourishing yourself, right? Taking breath, drinking water, you know, taking a moment. So, and that includes like when I schedule my day, trying not to schedule things back to back to back to back. So I give myself those breathers, that's a regular part of life. In therapy, most people either do once a week or every other week. In terms of courses, uh, sometimes it is. Like to jumpstart your learning, it's like I want to do this or a retreat. But then it becomes, how do I live it out?

• 35:14Speaker 03

  Right? So I can immerse myself in a program and that's very helpful. Then I it's the practice, right? And and the application. Because many of us will say like, I heard a good podcast, or I heard a good speech, or I read a great book. But then the application isn't there.

• 35:31Emma Grede?

  Yeah. And how do I carry that through my everyday life? I mean, for me, I've always really enjoyed those things because I do think there's a benefit to that intensive learning and also the dedication of time because we're all so busy. But for me, if I decide I'm taking nine days to focus on myself, to do my individual work. Then, you know, I bet I will take those practices into my everyday life because I've dedicated so much. But I I think it's a really interesting way to kickstart some of your understanding around these things. And I don't think that I necessarily came from a place where these were discussions we were having. It was like, just figure it out, get on with it, keep it moving.

• 36:10Speaker 03

  And this is a key part that many times people who raised us or taught us or mentored us didn't have access.

• 36:17Emma Grede?

  They didn't know any better.

• 36:18Speaker 03

  And so when they say, like, I made it through without it. Well, the truth is, if we look closely, they didn't make it through without scars. Right? It showed up in the way they parented us. It showed us in the way they approached work. It showed up in the ways they treated themselves. And so, you know, sometimes people raise it as this banner of I went through terrible things and never got any help. Yeah. And and we see that.

• 36:44Emma Grede?

  And we see that. Yes. It's showing up every single day in your life and your behaviors. And you know, on this show, there are so many people that are, you know, thinking about starting businesses or, you know, forging great careers. And I talk a lot about making, you know, bold steps and taking big, big moves. But often what holds us back is fear.

• 37:05Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 37:05Emma Grede?

  And, you know, I wanted to talk to you a little bit about fear because oftentimes it's rooted in nothing. It's rooted in just what we've decided and the stories, again. That we're telling ourselves. And I wonder how you move through some of that fear and learn to let it go.

• 37:23Speaker 03

  Yes. So one of them, if if it's a fear of failure, then imagine failing. And then imagine yourself surviving the failure.

• 37:32Emma Grede?

  So talk me through that.

• 37:33Speaker 03

  Right.

• 37:34Emma Grede?

  You want a a new position in the company that you're working for. And you know that you need to put you make yourself vulnerable, put yourself out there.

• 37:41Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 37:42Emma Grede?

  And and you're saying, imagine yourself, imagine that not happening.

• 37:45Speaker 03

  Right. They might pick somebody else, right? So of course you hope it's you, but. Let's say they pick whoever down the hall, right? And then picture yourself the day after you found out it's gonna be Suzie. Picture yourself waking up. What are you gonna do to take care of yourself before you go into the office? Do you have anybody in the office that you wanna meet for coffee or tea before you and you all could walk in together? No one's gonna say anything. No one's gonna be like, aha, you didn't get there.

• 38:16Emma Grede?

  No.

• 38:17Speaker 03

  So then you walk in and now Suzie, right? Do you wanna walk past our office and say congratulations? Or not, you can choose, right? And then you go back to doing, so you're not gonna be demoted because you went for it. Now you're just doing what you were doing before. So you didn't lose anything. Except people know you have a desire for more, so maybe they can be looking out for you when other opportunities come.

• 38:43Emma Grede?

  What's the psychology behind that? When you asked us to go through and like live that experience, take yourself there, what is that actually doing?

• 38:51Speaker 03

  So it is exposure. So we're uh we're uh we have a fear of the unknown or what we have never experienced. So I can have exposure, like real life exposure, which will be like if I don't get it. But I can also have it uh in my imagination, right? So then I'm experiencing it in my nervous system. I'm picturing that and then I'm seeing myself survive it because.

• 39:15Speaker 03

  Before I do that, it's like a blank. I think like, what if I don't get it and everything goes blank? So then, I like, I don't think I could survive that. I think it'll be so humiliating. I can't picture myself being able to move past it. So now we can imagine it.

• 39:33Emma Grede?

  Is that a style of visualization?

• 39:34Speaker 03

  Yeah, yeah. Yes. So whether it's fear of failure or fear of success, imagining and thinking through like, what is this?

• 39:43Emma Grede?

  Are people scared of success?

• 39:44Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 39:45Emma Grede?

  They are?

• 39:45Speaker 03

  Yeah, some people. So it can be for different reasons. Sometimes they're afraid of success because they have seen people who are in the limelight get attacked. Or some people don't want like the responsibility of it, the weight of it. Some people don't want the social consequences. Because let's say all of the coworkers talk bad about the boss. Then you're in the club, right? And it's like, ah, right? So now if I'm out there, they're gonna be talking about me. Yeah, so some people, you know, are afraid of success or afraid of, you know, what it means. I had a friend who grew up struggling and had, you know, negative thoughts about rich people.

• 40:27Speaker 03

  It's like, you know, they're selfish or they're this or they're bougie or whatever. And so then he, you know, got a job and made a lot of money. And so he was very conflicted about like, but what does this mean? Am I now one of them? Well, maybe your idea of them has to change, right? More humanized.

• 40:47Emma Grede?

  Yeah.

• 40:47Speaker 03

  You know, there are people there who are like selfish and whatever. And there are people who are very generous and kind. So, yeah, there are some people who are afraid of succeeding.

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• 42:38Emma Grede?

  What are all the ways that fear show up for us? Because when I think about fear, I think about perfectionism.

• 42:44Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 42:45Emma Grede?

  I think about procrastination.

• 42:46Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 42:47Emma Grede?

  But there are so many ways that fear turns up, and sometimes it can be really hard to identify.

• 42:51Speaker 03

  Yeah, so some people who are controlling are controlling because they are afraid. Right? They're afraid of what's gonna happen, and that can also be a part of distrust. Like, I don't trust other people to do an excellent job, and I'm afraid if I hand it over to them, it's gonna be a disaster. So now I'm micromanaging. Now I'm like, you know, carrying the weight of the world on my shoulders, or so I think, right?

• 43:18Emma Grede?

  These are often very female traits as well, right? Nobody can do it as well as I can. I might as well do it myself. I'm just gonna overload.

• 43:25Speaker 03

  Yes, I'll just do it, yeah. I'll just, and we think about those of us who in school hated group projects, right? It's like, yeah, they're gonna let me down.

• 43:34Emma Grede?

  I was always trying not to be picked. I went, I'll do it on my own. I don't want anyone to mess up my thing, you know.

• 43:40Speaker 03

  Cause I trust me, right? I trust me and if I do it, it's gonna be excellent. But that's that anxiety of like, yeah, can I, can I trust other people, connect with other people? Sometimes the anxiety can show up by us not advocating for ourselves, by us accepting for treatment. Because we may believe if I speak up for myself, people will get angry. Or people will abandon me, or people won't choose me. So then I am censoring myself, I'm contorting myself to be acceptable.

• 44:17Emma Grede?

  And that happens a lot in the workplace with people, right? And I love to talk to you about workplace trauma because I think that that, I don't know that people know exactly what that looks like all of the time. But if you are censoring yourself, if you're, if you're not coming to the table as your whole self and you're feeling like you have to present some other version, like that is real trauma in the workplace, isn't it?

• 44:40Speaker 03

  And it, it shows up, a, a, a big one I'll say is happening now is companies who are doing these mass layoffs. So then, and people are knowing they could be next and having to show up and do your job, right?

• 44:55Emma Grede?

  That's hard.

• 44:55Speaker 03

  Yeah. And you also see how people who may have been here for years, they let them go and like no one ever mentions them again. So that's that realizing too. You've been loyal to this thing that's not loyal to you. So that can stir up all kinds of emotions that understandably makes it difficult.

• 45:14Emma Grede?

  Yeah. And I've, I mean, I've seen this firsthand because, I mean, look, most companies go through times when there are big layoffs. And I think what I've learned over, you know, the past 10 years is that it's transparency that matters to people.

• 45:27Speaker 03

  That's right.

• 45:28Emma Grede?

  When you try to do something like that and you don't address it with everyone and you don't talk about it after and you pretend that Sally that you used to sit next to didn't exist, like that's the big issue. These things happen and they're in the usual course of business, but how you communicate. How those people are treated, how the people that are left. Are, you know, spoken to. And the level of transparency, like that's the important thing.

• 45:53Speaker 03

  Yeah, if we're in denial, no one's talking about it. And we know like this thing is, you know, changing people's lives. Then there's like a lack of caretaking, right? A, a lack of honoring of, of people. And so you have to say like, you know, we're in this terrible situation that is hap- this is happening. We wanna check in. We wanna be transparent. We wanna tell people what's going on or where we are in the process. That makes a difference.

• 46:20Emma Grede?

  Is, is trauma that you experience in the workplace very, very different from what you might experience in your own personal life?

• 46:26Speaker 03

  Right. So one, I wanna say most of these incidents in the workplace, I would call stress.

• 46:31Emma Grede?

  Right.

• 46:31Speaker 03

  Instead of a trauma, right? So it may be, you know, the stress of layoffs versus, you know, when there has been like violence in the workplace and we've seen those kinds of things happen. Or, you know, the cumulative effect of like sexual harassment. And even if it didn't get to the physical point, it just is continuing over time, then that can have kind of traumatizing effects.

• 46:56Emma Grede?

  Yeah, it's a totally different thing.

• 46:58Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 46:58Emma Grede?

  It's a totally different thing. And how we deal with it has to be completely different.

• 47:02Speaker 03

  And then we wanna connect it with, in terms of trauma, when we've had experiences in trauma outside of the workplace, how that can affect the way we show up in the workplace, right? So if I grew up or had like secure relationships as an adult, then I can show up to work and I'm kind of expecting things to go according to plan. I'm not coming in suspicious.

• 47:25Emma Grede?

  Yes.

• 47:25Speaker 03

  You know, I'm just, I feel like secure and my expectations are this will be a healthy place. Versus if I've, you know, been in situations where it's inconsistent. Uh, people say one set of rules and then treat you another way. You know, now I'm coming into the workplace with a lot of anxiety. And so I may start overworking, trying to like prove myself, trying to be enough and like setting no boundaries. And then also having issues with people in authority. You know, some people, just cuz you're their supervisor, they're having all this anger. Uh, because their, their experience of people with power has not been good.

• 48:04Emma Grede?

  Yeah. And I wanted to talk to you a little bit about leadership, because I think it's a, a place where, you know. A lot of people find themselves in positions of leadership, but you're not going to get everything right

• 48:15Speaker 03

  Right.

• 48:15Emma Grede?

  all the time. So how do you deal with that in a workplace scenario? When you feel like you're in a position of authority, you're expected to get things right all the time? How do we forgive ourselves from the missteps, from, you know, things that perhaps don't go right the first time around? Or if you've just got regrets about things that happened?

• 48:35Speaker 03

  Yeah, it's a great one. I like to call it pulling the wisdom out of the womb, right? So I've been through some things. I didn't always get it right. The key is like, did I learn from it? So that next time, you know, I know how to do some things differently. I remember I was working at a university and coordinating their sexual assault response program. And I came in new, fresh, and saw all kinds of issues with the system. And so I was very soon saying like, you know, this system is broken. We need a whole new system.

• 49:09Emma Grede?

  Guns blazing.

• 49:10Speaker 03

  Right, oh yeah. Had not taken into account that everybody in the room built this system.

• 49:16Speaker 03

  So like, oh, right, I'm like, oh, not you. Well, you know.

• 49:20Emma Grede?

  Kind of, yes.

• 49:22Speaker 03

  But it's like, but if I had that in my mind,

• 49:25Emma Grede?

  Yes.

• 49:25Speaker 03

  I would have framed it differently. And in the future, when I've been in places where like some things need to change, to first start off with like honoring the people who have, you know, kept the boat afloat and like we want to build on their successes.

• 49:39Emma Grede?

  Yes, you do. Yes, you do.

• 49:41Speaker 03

  Yeah, so I learned from it. And then I think it's also for us to acknowledge it to the team, that the willingness to recognize when you made a mistake.

• 49:54Emma Grede?

  Yeah, and that's all it often takes. It's about the recognition.

• 49:56Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 49:57Emma Grede?

  It's really, really difficult. It's difficult for people.

• 50:00Speaker 03

  Yes, because they feel like you said, this assumption of like, I'm supposed to get everything right. Well, but you didn't, right? So now a way of getting it right is acknowledging that you like learned from that path, right? That we're going to do things differently going forward, instead of pretending it didn't happen.

• 50:21Emma Grede?

  Instead of pretending.

• 50:22Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 50:22Emma Grede?

  What about forgiveness? Like when we start to think about How we can move forward through trauma, through whatever might have happened in our life, professional, personal, or otherwise. How do we redefine forgiveness? Because it's one of those things that can make, you know, depending who you are and where you come from, it can be a very, very complex

• 50:44Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 50:45Emma Grede?

  emotion, it's an emotion, but it's a complex

• 50:47Speaker 03

  Process.

• 50:48Emma Grede?

  Yeah, a complex thing to think about.

• 50:50Speaker 03

  Right. So we have to really unpack what we mean when we say forgiveness. Because some people will say things that aren't true, like if you forgive, you'll never think about it again. That's just not true, like neurologically, like it doesn't, it doesn't work. So because then if you think about it, people say, well, you must have not forgiven. That's not true. If something was big.

• 51:11Emma Grede?

  You're never forgetting it necessarily, yes.

• 51:14Speaker 03

  Yeah. Forgiving also doesn't mean it wasn't a big deal. Sometimes we don't want to forgive because we think that we're saying it didn't matter, right? And forgiveness can be a process. So you can first give yourself permission to feel what you feel. Because some of us are trying to do like the instant thing of like, soon as it happened, we're like, I don't know, I'm over it. And it's like, no, you're not.

• 51:39Emma Grede?

  Very rarely.

• 51:40Speaker 03

  Right? Yeah. So just allow yourself to first feel the impact of it, right? The reason you're saying there is something to forgive is there was a wrong that was done. So, you know, can, can you give yourself permission to grieve, to have anger, to have frustration? I like to say it's healthy to be outraged about outrageous things, and some outrageous things have happened. So I don't have to pretend that it wasn't outrageous. It's just that with forgiveness, I don't want to get stuck there. So when I forgive, I give myself permission to not have to stay stuck in that place of being worked up and overwhelmed by other people's actions.

• 52:23Emma Grede?

  That's a reframing of forgiveness though, isn't it? Because I think the way that maybe we traditionally think about forgiveness is that whatever happened was somehow okay.

• 52:33Speaker 03

  Right.

• 52:33Emma Grede?

  But what you're, that's totally different from what you just described.

• 52:36Speaker 03

  Because also if I say it's okay, then that means they can keep doing it.

• 52:40Emma Grede?

  Right.

• 52:40Speaker 03

  Right?

• 52:41Emma Grede?

  What you're saying is, I'm okay.

• 52:43Speaker 03

  I'm okay.

• 52:44Emma Grede?

  I'm okay.

• 52:44Speaker 03

  And we can become okay if I choose to reconcile. We can work so that we're okay. But the action was not okay.

• 52:52Emma Grede?

  Do you always, do you have to forgive to be able to move past something?

• 52:57Speaker 03

  You, well, I'm gonna say it depends on who you ask. From a therapist, you don't have to. Right? And I, I give that caution because religious people.

• 53:06Emma Grede?

  I was just gonna say, but as a pastor.

• 53:08Speaker 03

  Right. And even as, and I will say, even as a pastor, I don't interpret the word in the way many people think. So many people, when they say you must forgive, what they're really trying to say is you must reconcile. And that's not true. And if you're a person of faith, it's not even biblical, right? That to reconciliation requires what we call repentance, or a change of mind, meaning you're not gonna keep doing it, right? So I can forgive someone who's not sorry, but I can't be reconciled with someone who's not sorry because they're gonna keep doing hurtful things.

• 53:48Emma Grede?

  That's some clarification.

• 53:49Speaker 03

  Yeah. So you can forgive and move on.

• 53:52Emma Grede?

  You can forgive and move on.

• 53:53Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 53:53Emma Grede?

  You don't need to forgive and forget.

• 53:55Speaker 03

  Right. It's, you know, in order for us to, to heal us, then people have to acknowledge what they did was wrong and be actively working to not keep doing it.

• 54:06Emma Grede?

  That is very clear.

• 54:08Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 54:09Emma Grede?

  It's, it's a very clear definition.

• 54:11Speaker 03

  Yes. And it puts some, it puts accountability with the person who has done the harm.

• 54:15Emma Grede?

  Yes, exactly. Not with you.

• 54:17Speaker 03

  The way we often frame it is, no matter what they do to you, you're just supposed to keep forgiving, forgiving, forgiving. And there's no accountability for people who are out here hurting folks.

• 54:27Emma Grede?

  And there has to be.

• 54:28Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 54:28Emma Grede?

  There has to be.

• 54:29Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 54:30Emma Grede?

  You know, when I think about trauma, because, you know, I think about my own traumas, and then as a mother of four, I immediately go to, but how do I not create, you know, how do I not allow these situations to happen for my own children, my own kids? But you can't.

• 54:46Speaker 03

  Right.

• 54:47Emma Grede?

  You can't, you can't prevent.

• 54:49Speaker 03

  So you can, what we can do as parents is we just can reduce the risk, but there's no guarantee, right? So how do I reduce the risk? I may say, before I let my child play at a certain place, I'm gonna check out. The people, right? And so then I may say, okay, I'm comfortable with these people. Yes, my child can go to their child's party, but people can trick you. Trying to do some checking is is good. Setting some ground rules is good. Trying to have open lines of communication with your kid is really good because a lot of kids will hold things in. Talking with kids proactively about things so that if something happens or makes them uncomfortable, they'll know like what to do or that they can talk to you.

• 55:31Speaker 03

  But, you know, we also have situations where we quote unquote did all the things. And bad things can still.

• 55:39Emma Grede?

  And bad things can still happen. How do you teach boundaries? Because I feel like so much of what people struggle with is their boundaries. And if you don't have boundaries, it's very difficult to demonstrate to your kids to have.

• 55:51Speaker 03

  Right, yeah. It's a great point that a part of us teaching it to our kids, as with other lessons, is taught better by our actions than our words.

• 56:01Emma Grede?

  Yeah, you have to demonstrate.

• 56:02Speaker 03

  They're watching what we do, what we accept or don't accept, where we draw the line. And then they will often copy those behaviors.

• 56:12Emma Grede?

  What can we do? What can we what can we teach them? What can we tell them?

• 56:15Speaker 03

  Yes. So, you know, we may say something like around boundary setting. If I'm a people pleaser, then I'm saying yes to everything and everyone, and I'm always exhausted. And I'm neglecting myself and I'm probably neglecting my kids because I'm doing everything for everyone else.

• 56:33Emma Grede?

  Yes.

• 56:33Speaker 03

  Right? So then I want to shift that and I may say to my kids, you know, I notice I've been running a lot lately or forever, right? And so I want to start saying no to some outside things more so I can say yes to us, yes to my rest, yes to my peace and yes to our time of having fun. And then I'll share with them those times of like, oh, yeah, someone asked me to do this thing on Saturday, but I told them no because we're gonna relax in the house and watch a movie.

• 57:04Emma Grede?

  That's just what we're doing.

• 57:05Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 57:06Emma Grede?

  So what happens if you're a really ambitious go getter of a person? How do you set boundaries for yourself?

• 57:12Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 57:12Emma Grede?

  When you still have like very, very high expectations on yourself?

• 57:15Speaker 03

  Right, yeah. So you can be very goal oriented, but I love this phrase. A life coach here in L A, Shannon Yvette, has a sentence. She says, I want to be called and not driven. And what she means by that is like, if I'm traumatized or if I feel insecure, I'm driven. So then I'm constantly chasing significance and nothing is ever enough. So that's not just me being ambitious or goal oriented. It is me seeking validation.

• 57:47Emma Grede?

  Chasing.

• 57:48Speaker 03

  Yeah. So with that, then I can never be still. I can never celebrate my wins. I can never just enjoy a quiet afternoon because I'm hungry for this enoughness. Versus, you know, if you have gifts, talents, and I feel called or purposeful about certain things I'm doing, I'm doing them, but in a settled way, right? It's not just like all over the place or frantic or anxious. You know, when I'm living with purpose, I'm also setting some boundaries.

• 58:20Emma Grede?

  What do you say to women that feel inherently guilty anytime they take a bit of time for themselves? Because we all know that it's important, but then the minute you step over into that, you know, like me, time mode, the guilt strikes.

• 58:37Speaker 03

  Yeah, it's a great point of not only how do I care for myself, but to do that without the guilt. And, you know, what I like to say in part is I want to be a good model to my children. So if the way I'm running and frantic and overwhelmed, is that what I want my daughter to copy?

• 58:57Emma Grede?

  Yeah.

• 58:58Speaker 03

  Right? So I like to say, I said it in a TED Talk I did, let your children catch you relaxing. Like let them catch you laughing, having ease in your life, because you, you want that for them. So if I don't ever do it, and then I say the message, take care of yourself. But they like, they know that means nothing.

• 59:18Emma Grede?

  They know it means nothing.

• 59:19Speaker 03

  Yeah. So then am I going to the spa or laying down or watching a show? I am demonstrating that you can be successful and goal oriented and also have like ease in your life.

• 59:34Emma Grede?

  Yeah.

• 59:34Speaker 03

  And I believe it causes us to show up as better people.

• 59:40Speaker 03

  When I'm distressed and burned out and I'm being the martyr, right? I'm like, I'm not taking any breaks and, you know, I look down on these women who go and do these things. You know, well, your kids and perhaps your partner would love for you to go relax somewhere.

• 59:55Emma Grede?

  Yeah, and take a break and chill it out.

• 59:58Speaker 03

  You're stressing everybody out.

• 1:00:00Emma Grede?

  I mean, you're a very, very accomplished woman. There's, I mean, your bio is kind of insane. So what is your take on the whole work-life balance?

• 1:00:09Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:00:10Emma Grede?

  Conversation, situation, myth, whatever we want to call it.

• 1:00:13Speaker 03

  So I will say a secret hack of mine that won't work for everyone, but I have an academic job. So because it's an academic job, it's not a nine to five, right? So I teach classes, I go to my faculty meetings. But, you know, if my kid was having a recital at school in the middle of the day, I could actually go if I wasn't teaching a class at that time. So that creates, I would say, more spaciousness.

• 1:00:40Emma Grede?

  Yes.

• 1:00:40Speaker 03

  For those of us who like to do multiple things. So, you know, I may see clients in the morning and then go teach a class in the afternoon. But also, I will say, the rhythm of my life or the outlets that I choose did have to change with parenting. So for example, I love spoken word poetry, right? So when I was younger in college and in my twenties, like all of the open mic places. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Slam poetry, all the things. Yeah, I love it. But all the places would be like 10 o'clock at night.

• 1:01:13Emma Grede?

  Yeah.

• 1:01:13Speaker 03

  You know, on a Tuesday.

• 1:01:14Emma Grede?

  On a Tuesday.

• 1:01:16Speaker 03

  And so, yeah, if I'm in my early twenties, yeah, midnight, we're still there. So when I, you know, became a parent and a professor, it's just like, I couldn't do that anymore. And then one day I was sitting with, like, I miss myself, right? I'm a poet. I'd miss it. And so then I had to find what are other ways of integrating that into my life? So if I speak at churches, they're going to get a poem. In some of my lectures, they get a poem. You know, I've done poetry therapy groups.

• 1:01:46Emma Grede?

  But it's never about giving up that part of yourself, right?

• 1:01:49Speaker 03

  It's finding another. Finding another way for it to work.

• 1:01:52Emma Grede?

  So what do you think when when it comes down to doing the work? I know I often hear some of my friends say it feels so indulgent to do my own thing, to take my poetry class, to do the thing that fills me up. What do you say?

• 1:02:07Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:02:08Emma Grede?

  And and oftentimes it can be really just difficult to fit it all in. So why is it so important for people that are in roles where they are carers or mothers? Or, you know, I just wonder why it becomes so difficult.

• 1:02:23Speaker 03

  Yes. So I would say if you're partnered or planning to be partner, to partner with someone who actually wants to partner, right? Because some of the research.

• 1:02:35Emma Grede?

  You better say that one again.

• 1:02:36Speaker 03

  Right. If you want to partner.

• 1:02:38Emma Grede?

  You mean someone who comes to the table, someone who's like.

• 1:02:41Speaker 03

  Someone who's the who doesn't think that all of this is for you to do that.

• 1:02:45Emma Grede?

  Mm hmm.

• 1:02:45Speaker 03

  That doesn't think it's a hardship to pick up their children or doesn't think it's a hardship to check homework or to cook a meal.

• 1:02:53Emma Grede?

  God forbid.

• 1:02:53Speaker 03

  Right, yeah, yes. So if I want to have time for those things, then I want to be intentional about partnering with people who think that's important, who think my wellness, my joy, my gifts are important.

• 1:03:09Emma Grede?

  Yeah, yeah. And that's all about who you choose.

• 1:03:11Speaker 03

  Yes. And then I will say for those who are uh single parents to make use of your tribe. Because sometimes what we have, and I've I've been guilty of this, is you'll have people who offer to help and you're like, no, I'm good.

• 1:03:24Emma Grede?

  Yes, yeah.

• 1:03:25Speaker 03

  They're like, no, pick a day. I want to give you a break. No, no, no, I'm fine.

• 1:03:29Emma Grede?

  I got it. I got it. Yeah.

• 1:03:31Speaker 03

  Right. So put down the superwoman cape and say, were you, look, when you made that offer, were you serious?

• 1:03:36Emma Grede?

  I'll take it. Come on over. Yes, please.

• 1:03:38Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:03:39Emma Grede?

  Right. Why is it so hard for us to accept help? Like, what is that?

• 1:03:42Speaker 03

  It's that the idea we have about people who need help. We think they're weak or ineffective, so then we want to be the helper. Let me help these people who aren't as strong as me because I'm strong. And so I can, receiving help can be a strength. And also, you know, it's human. It's human to need help.

• 1:04:04Emma Grede?

  What do you say to women who just feel such tremendous guilt about ever focusing on themselves? How do you get women out of that mindset to realize that it is so very important?

• 1:04:16Speaker 03

  I would say, who told you you're not worthy of care? Who made you feel like you were not worthy? Because you believe other people are deserving. You know, you believe other people are deserving, but something has happened to make you believe that you should be able to function without any care. And it's a lie.

• 1:04:36Emma Grede?

  It's just a lie.

• 1:04:39Emma Grede?

  It's just.

• 1:04:39Speaker 03

  And there's no, as if you, there's no award for it. You know?

• 1:04:43Emma Grede?

  Sadly, there is not.

• 1:04:44Speaker 03

  Nor, there's penalty. So our health.

• 1:04:47Emma Grede?

  It's the opposite. You actually only get the underbelly of it.

• 1:04:50Speaker 03

  Yes, yeah. And then it also doesn't teach a good message to your family about what it really means to be a part of a family. If family means they all get to relax and you get to do everything, then where's, where's the family?

• 1:05:09Emma Grede?

  Have you had a moment in your life where you just couldn't cope anymore? Where it was just too much for you?

• 1:05:15Speaker 03

  So my example of that is during the pandemic.

• 1:05:18Emma Grede?

  Oh, the pandemic.

• 1:05:19Speaker 03

  Right? Oh, my goodness.

• 1:05:20Emma Grede?

  What a time in our lives.

• 1:05:21Speaker 03

  What a time. We were doing all the therapy online. And suddenly, because people were stressed, overwhelmed and grieved, so many people were reaching out, seeking services. That was the first time in my career where I had to put a sign on my website saying I wasn't taking any more clients. Because literally, and people know you're not going anywhere. So they're like, you know, see me at nine o'clock, right? It's on Zoom. So I had the clients and then my kids are home. They're doing, you know, school was online because of the pandemic.

• 1:05:56Emma Grede?

  Oh, I remember those days.

• 1:05:57Speaker 03

  Oh, my gosh. It was just stressful. And then in the midst of all of that, we had all of the racially motivated murders happening. So it was like the most. And in terms of that guilt.

• 1:06:10Emma Grede?

  Wow, you are taking me back to a time, it's like you blank it out somehow. Right, that's my trauma response.

• 1:06:15Speaker 03

  It was absolutely too, too much.

• 1:06:19Emma Grede?

  Yep.

• 1:06:19Speaker 03

  And so I had to say, like, something's got to give. Oh, in terms of the guilt feeling, because I know especially within the African American community, many people have like a stigma about going to therapy. So if people took the step of asking, I was feeling bad about saying no.

• 1:06:37Emma Grede?

  Yes.

• 1:06:38Speaker 03

  Right?

• 1:06:38Emma Grede?

  Yes.

• 1:06:38Speaker 03

  And then people who know my spiritual background would say things like, God said you're my therapist. And you're like, well, if God's dead.

• 1:06:48Emma Grede?

  I guess I'll be there.

• 1:06:50Speaker 03

  I guess I'll be eight o'clock. Girl, here's the link. So, but I discovered a win-win. I had all of these former students from Pepperdine, who had like three clients. So I just started referring, referring, referring.

• 1:07:04Emma Grede?

  Yes.

• 1:07:04Speaker 03

  And so they can get the care. They are building up, you know, their practice. And, you know, to release the lie that I have to carry it all.

• 1:07:14Emma Grede?

  Wow.

• 1:07:14Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:07:15Emma Grede?

  How did you do during that time?

• 1:07:17Speaker 03

  Oh, once I set that boundary, things were like so much better. Cause before I just was like adding and adding and adding. And it just was, was unbearable. But, yeah, and, and then one of the fun things that can happen with kids, you know, because they can't, you know, really go anywhere. We ended up ordering this trampoline. So my son was like, come jump with me. So it was great. I would see clients back to back.

• 1:07:42Emma Grede?

  And then get out there and jump, then jump. Get out of your system. Get out of your system. That's one way. I mean, I, it's really interesting when you think about going back to that time in the pandemic, because it's like a distant

• 1:07:55Speaker 03

  Right.

• 1:07:56Emma Grede?

  dream nightmare memory at this point.

• 1:07:58Speaker 03

  It did feel like this, uh, altered reality.

• 1:08:03Emma Grede?

  Do you feel like we've all processed the pandemic properly?

• 1:08:06Speaker 03

  We're not both, uh, we have not grieved it. Like even the number of deaths, we haven't really taken it in. It was, you know, kind of this American cultural mantra of like move forward, strong, and just keep it moving.

• 1:08:21Emma Grede?

  What do you think happens when like collectively in society, when we all experience something so big like that? And then it isn't processed?

• 1:08:29Speaker 03

  Yeah. It shows up in our, either heartening our hearts, where like there's that lack of compassion or that fragility, where like easily annoyed, easily attacking others.

• 1:08:43Emma Grede?

  Oh my God. Is that where we are in society right now?

• 1:08:46Speaker 03

  That's exactly where we are. You know, and still in that survival mode, the divisiveness is like, I'm, only some are gonna survive and I'm looking out for mine. And in order for mine to survive, then yours can't.

• 1:08:57Emma Grede?

  And you think some of that is a direct? Like it's directly correlated to what happened during COVID. That that makes such a lot of sense.

• 1:09:06Speaker 03

  Because I believe, you know, some of these things, of course, predated. But in terms of it being exacerbated and stirred up. Um, because you also got to see how quick people were willing to discard others. Like in the beginning, they were like, well, you're only at risk if you, you know, have a immune compromised or if you're older. It's like, those are your elders.

• 1:09:27Emma Grede?

  Yes.

• 1:09:28Speaker 03

  But like.

• 1:09:29Emma Grede?

  Yeah.

• 1:09:29Speaker 03

  You know, they've lived, so it's like this heartless.

• 1:09:32Emma Grede?

  Yes, yes. No, it's it's interesting culturally, the differences that happened during COVID.

• 1:09:39Speaker 03

  Well, and the other thing we have to deal with in our culture in particular is the widespread denial. In fact, there are people to this day who think those numbers are fake, who think it wasn't a big deal, who are mad that we had any restrictions, right? So that level of high denial and that, you know, you have.

• 1:09:58Emma Grede?

  That polarization.

• 1:09:59Speaker 03

  Yes, yes.

• 1:10:01Emma Grede?

  That as humans, we can't just align on.

• 1:10:03Speaker 03

  Agree on the facts. How can we heal when we don't even all agree that there was trauma? You and you talk to the people who did lose loved ones, multiple loved ones, and they're confronted with those who are like, don't believe it.

• 1:10:18Emma Grede?

  Wow, that's just, I guess that kind of takes us back to any kind of trauma. Because as you said at the start of these conversations, we all experience it completely differently.

• 1:10:27Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:10:28Emma Grede?

  The same thing can happen and we can all have.

• 1:10:30Speaker 03

  Yeah. And that's just like also during the pandemic when we were at home. Some people like were doing all these projects in their house and were, you know, doing their own homeschooling and arts and crafts projects. And some people were just like trying to get through the day, feeling, you know, very overwhelmed, staying in the bed. I was struck by as a therapist, when they had only essential businesses could open and on the list were liquor stores.

• 1:10:58Speaker 03

  And when I mentioned this to people, they were like, they better not close them, they close themselves. But you know, you saw it go through a sequence. There was a period where everyone was baking, so all the baking stuff.

• 1:11:08Emma Grede?

  Get a lot of banana bread. Yes, yes, yes, we did.

• 1:11:12Speaker 03

  So they were like, yeah, how did we make it?

• 1:11:15Emma Grede?

  How did we make it?

• 1:11:16Speaker 03

  Banana bread and margaritas.

• 1:11:18Emma Grede?

  Yes, what a combination.

• 1:11:21Emma Grede?

  Maybe we can go back.

• 1:11:24Emma Grede?

  It's really funny. I wanted to have the conversation with you about triggers because this is something that really perplexes me so much because people's triggers will be so, so different. How do you know when triggers are running your show? Like, what is the way to spot it and to figure out how you can cope and learn mechanisms to pause before you let something like that dictate how you're reacting?

• 1:11:47Speaker 03

  Yes. So you can recognize it when the object is neutral to other people. So for example, uh, some of us can be triggered by a scent, right? Cause the scent is what we smelled during a trauma. And then other people smell that and like, it's nothing to them. So then it's like.

• 1:12:09Emma Grede?

  So that should signal to you that that's a trigger of some description?

• 1:12:12Speaker 03

  For me, I smell that and I feel frightened or I get tearful or I'm holding myself tightly. We can also think about people's behavior where someone can do something annoying, but for some people, they're responding like this was a huge attack. So then you can see like, we were all in this place, but yes, what they did was rude or what they did was not called for, but the level of your response, what do you think that came from? Have you had an encounter where like, what does that remind you of? Who does that remind you of? And so then people may say, oh, that's just like my father used to do. Like, okay, there we go.

• 1:12:57Emma Grede?

  There we go.

• 1:12:57Speaker 03

  Yeah, cause we're all trying to figure out like how you ended up responding at, at that heightened level.

• 1:13:03Emma Grede?

  What is the right way to handle these things? And when do they stop? Like, do you get to some magical age where it's like, poof, that stuff goes away? Or do you have to do the work?

• 1:13:12Speaker 03

  Right. So it depends on what it is. Sometimes we can uh, kind of rewire, rework our nervous system with exposure. So let's say the incident happened in a particular neighborhood or in a house or at that school and I haven't been able to. Go back. So then I may work on my like breathing and muscle relaxation so that I can actually go there. Like I had a client who was in a mass shooting at a concert. And so for her and concerts were like a a joy for her. And so a big goal for her in therapy was to get to a place where she could go back, right? And so then she went and like there was no shooting and she had a good time, but she was prepared. Like she went with two friends.

• 1:13:57Speaker 03

  And they were prepared for like, if I need to leave, that you all are willing to leave with me. So she could, you know, work up to it and then create like some new memories, some new experiences.

• 1:14:07Emma Grede?

  What happens if the trigger is more like it's a person? It's a family member. I feel like so many of us have, and you, you know, you're not getting rid of those family members. You can't choose or, or, you know, not to see them in the same way.

• 1:14:20Speaker 03

  Right. So for our family members, I would first distinguish for people. Are you triggered by their past behavior or is it something they're continuing to do? Right?

• 1:14:32Emma Grede?

  Yeah, can you separate the two?

• 1:14:34Speaker 03

  Right. Cause let's say they, you know, were were mean when I was growing up. And, you know, some people will say like when they become grandparents, they become nicer. So then when, when you can see the change, sometimes it's easier to to.

• 1:14:48Emma Grede?

  To digest and and accept. What if they don't change?

• 1:14:51Speaker 03

  Right. If they don't change, then you do have to make some decisions around boundaries because some of us may feel like. Uh, you have to give them all of your time, all the time. And that's not true. So there's a lot of options between cutting people off, which some people choose to do. Or being around them nonstop. So I may say to someone, if you have a relative who is continuing to do harmful things. For me to say, do I have to spend every holiday with them? Do I have to be there every weekend? Like, and so I get to, I can decrease my, my time in the space. Or I can also think about activities I can do while I'm there. So say it's a family gathering, I might choose to sit at the kids' table.

• 1:15:35Speaker 03

  Right? We are just gonna talk about Roblox or whatever and let them do what they're gonna do. Or if people need someone to run and err and get something from the store, I will. I would love to. I'll get in the car, call my friend, like, yep.

• 1:15:49Emma Grede?

  And that's not avoidant?

• 1:15:51Speaker 03

  No, not if, so this is if you're talking about someone who's not changing.

• 1:15:56Emma Grede?

  Right.

• 1:15:56Speaker 03

  Right?

• 1:15:57Emma Grede?

  Yeah.

• 1:15:57Speaker 03

  If I have a relative that, that if I had the hard conversation with, it could shift, then let's have the hard conversation.

• 1:16:04Emma Grede?

  But not everyone can change, right?

• 1:16:06Speaker 03

  Yeah, some people have no interest in changing.

• 1:16:09Emma Grede?

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:16:09Speaker 03

  And so a part of that can be us thinking about, you know, whether or not we want to confront or have the conversation. And if people are thinking about confronting someone about, you know, an issue that happened or a trauma that happened, you know, I help them to be prepared for the different possible responses. Like best case scenario, they acknowledge it, they're sorry, they authentically feel bad about it.

• 1:16:34Emma Grede?

  Yeah.

• 1:16:34Speaker 03

  Uh, that's best case. People might say, I don't remember, I don't know what you're talking about, you're lying, I never did that, right? So we have to, or turn it on you, well, that's because you, but so we have to be prepared for that. And then I tell people, like, if you are going to be shattered, if they don't apologize, then you're not ready for the confrontation. Right? But if you're in a place where no matter what they say, I need to speak my truth, and I don't care if they acknowledge it or not, even if I do care, but it's more important to me to say it, that what you did was harmful, I didn't deserve it, and it should never have happened, then you do.

• 1:17:13Emma Grede?

  And you think having those types of conversations are necessary for healing?

• 1:17:19Speaker 03

  Not for all people. I would say if you're gonna continue to be around them.

• 1:17:23Emma Grede?

  Then it could be.

• 1:17:24Speaker 03

  Right? If I say, you know, this person is harmful, not only to me, but maybe they might do those same things to my children. So I may say, I don't wanna go over there anymore.

• 1:17:36Emma Grede?

  Yeah.

• 1:17:36Speaker 03

  And so there may never be a conversation, I just don't go. Or if you say, I'm gonna go but with limits or boundaries, so I may say, if any of these things happen, then I'm gonna take my kids and leave. You know, we can communicate it that way. Other things we may feel like this is their personality. And when I was younger, it hurt my feelings more. But like, I'm not in that space anymore. So I would say, like, the people who get the backhanded compliments. But they're like, oh, you're still wearing your hair like that. Or, oh, you're still single. Or, oh, you know, you know. So like, if that, if that is still devastating to you.

• 1:18:14Emma Grede?

  Then you have to check yourself.

• 1:18:15Speaker 03

  You can make some different decisions about, do you want to be around them?

• 1:18:18Emma Grede?

  Totally.

• 1:18:18Speaker 03

  But, uh, you know, if you're at a place where you're good with your life and you're like, watch this, I'm gonna walk in there and she gonna say something about my hair.

• 1:18:26Emma Grede?

  You can probably go through it.

• 1:18:27Speaker 03

  Yeah, she's gonna say something about my weight or whatever it is. Uh, so, you know, for each person, you gotta, that's that checking in with yourself.

• 1:18:35Emma Grede?

  Yes, which you should be doing every day and every night. And definitely before you go to your family's house.

• 1:18:40Speaker 03

  Yes, definitely.

• 1:18:41Emma Grede?

  That's the morning to do it.

• 1:18:43Speaker 03

  Right, that is the time to check in.

• 1:18:45Emma Grede?

  That is the time.

• 1:18:50Speaker 06

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• 1:19:35Speaker 06

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• 1:19:55Emma Grede?

  Do you believe that in order to live a happy life, that healing is non-negotiable?

• 1:20:03Speaker 03

  Yes. The only way it would be negotiable are people who are in denial about their dysfunction. So there are people who are perfectly happy, who are ruining things for everybody else. Right?

• 1:20:19Emma Grede?

  Whose job is it to tell them?

• 1:20:22Speaker 03

  Well, it's no one's job unless you're going to keep interacting with them.

• 1:20:26Emma Grede?

  So you just have to...

• 1:20:27Speaker 03

  Well, no. If you're going to be around them, if you're going to engage with them, but often people like that, it's hard for them to hear it, or see it, or receive it, or believe it. But I will say there are people who have enough insight and awareness, where if you give an example or you explain it, they may have missed it in the moment, but sometimes there are people who, when you give it to them, are like, "Oh, okay, like, I didn't know like that was a thing." So let's say the controlling person, or the, or this is a big one I see with people,

• 1:21:09Speaker 03

  people who honor truth telling, but without grace. So for them, the most important thing is, well, it was true.

• 1:21:16Emma Grede?

  I told you, yeah, exactly.

• 1:21:17Speaker 03

  It was true. Like, I'm not gonna lie, it was true. Right? But it was like, but your delivery and your tone was not one of care.

• 1:21:25Emma Grede?

  Yes.

• 1:21:25Speaker 03

  It was one where you were trying to sting them.

• 1:21:28Emma Grede?

  Oh, yeah. You're never gonna get anything done like that.

• 1:21:30Speaker 03

  Right.

• 1:21:31Emma Grede?

  I mean, I'm someone who really believes in this idea of massive, kind of, I guess, like accountability for your own life, right? And I wonder what you think the difference is between blame and responsibility in healing for yourself?

• 1:21:48Speaker 03

  Yes. So I think it is important, especially when you bring up forgiveness.

• 1:21:56Speaker 03

  Around self forgiveness, it's important that we not hold ourselves responsible for things we're not responsible for. So sometimes that's shame and self blame. So we may be saying like, I'm trying to forgive myself for being molested. That's not for you to, you know, you didn't do anything wrong. But some people, that's how they're, that's how they're framing it. So if we're talking about self forgiveness, we want to first make sure it's actually something you did. And, you know, something that was harmful or that you want to learn from and do something different. The other part about self forgiveness is sometimes we are looking at ourselves through our current lens. Right?

• 1:22:40Speaker 03

  So fifteen year old me doesn't know what me knows now. Even twenty two, even forty year old me doesn't know what I know now. Right? So, yes, I can give myself some grace and compassion while also still saying, you know, that was a mistake and I don't want to do that again.

• 1:23:00Emma Grede?

  I wanted to talk to you about spiritual practice. Because you're a pastor, obviously, and you feel like the right person to talk about. But I feel like, um, if you weren't, I, I wasn't raised particularly religious. And I've always felt like a, a deeply spiritual person. But it can feel like the last thing, for whatever reason, you know? It's like, where does this fit in my life? I don't have a church, I don't have a, an altar, like I, I, I do, you know? It's like, I pray, but, you know, to who, to what, I don't know. And so what, how important do you think spiritual practice is? To feel true alignment, to be a really balanced person? And, and especially when we all live how we do now. So busy, so consumed, so much going on all the time.

• 1:23:44Emma Grede?

  It feels to me, and maybe it's just, I don't know, something to do with the age, that it's becoming more and more and more something that I wish I had a deeper connection to. Do you think that it's that important?

• 1:23:57Speaker 03

  Yes, I think that it's vital. There are, of course, people who go through life without it. But then, you know, it's An aspect of them that hasn't been nourished, right, that hasn't been fed. And you know, it's never too late to say like, I'm claiming it now and I'm and I'm shaping it into, you know, what it's gonna be for me. And so I talked about like start of the day. I like to encourage people to do like morning rituals. Um, so people call it morning devotions. So the first thing is you have to wake up before you have to get up. Cause if you wake up and have to jump out of bed, you're already anxious, right?

• 1:24:37Emma Grede?

  Yes.

• 1:24:37Speaker 03

  So you wake up before you have to get up. And then you play with different things to discover what's something that feels like nourishing to your soul. So for some people will be like said prayer. So instead of like waiting for a crisis and say like, God, help me, right? And I can start my morning.

• 1:24:54Emma Grede?

  Thank you, God.

• 1:24:55Speaker 03

  Right, right, right. With that, thank you, you know, uh, and and that gratitude also helps to protect us against despair. Cause when we're in a place of depression, we see everything that's going wrong. And we can overlook the things that are going right. So I may start with a gratitude prayer. I might start with meditation. I might start with moving and stretching, putting on some either instrumental music or some sacred music.

• 1:25:20Emma Grede?

  Do you do all of this?

• 1:25:21Speaker 03

  I love this. I love it. And of course, each morning, like the amount of time you do it or the the sequence of what you do can change. Reading sacred texts, journaling, uh, taking a walk in nature.

• 1:25:34Emma Grede?

  I feel like maybe I've misunderstood all the spiritual things that I do do.

• 1:25:40Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 1:25:40Emma Grede?

  You know, because I've always journaled and I always have gratitude and I always stand in nature. And I do meditate in the morning, but maybe I just haven't accepted that as a spiritual undertaking.

• 1:25:52Speaker 03

  Right. I think the part that you're missing is feeling like wanting to connect with your higher source or to connect with your creator. So those things may be, they're good because they're taking me into myself.

• 1:26:05Emma Grede?

  Inwards.

• 1:26:06Speaker 03

  Right? And so then if I want this like outward connection, then it's being like intentional about my prayers or reading devotionals, those kinds of things.

• 1:26:17Emma Grede?

  Yeah.

• 1:26:17Speaker 03

  And I will say the arts, and I mentioned I love poetry and dancing, but the arts can also be a way of making that connection.

• 1:26:24Emma Grede?

  A really big way, right? A really big way.

• 1:26:27Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:26:27Emma Grede?

  And it's poetry.

• 1:26:28Speaker 03

  Yes, and dancing.

• 1:26:30Emma Grede?

  How much of your, I mean, when you think about your life now and all that you do, how important is that stuff? Like, do you believe that everybody needs to nurture that other side of them, the more artistic side, the more spiritual side?

• 1:26:44Speaker 03

  For me, it's been vital. So in terms of the spirituality, I believe that the work of therapy and providing therapy is faith work, right? In order to do therapy, you have to believe that things can be better than they are right now to act of faith, right?

• 1:27:07Emma Grede?

  That's a really great framing for therapy.

• 1:27:10Speaker 03

  So when people.

• 1:27:11Emma Grede?

  You have to believe that things could be better than they are now.

• 1:27:15Speaker 03

  Right?

• 1:27:16Emma Grede?

  That's just it.

• 1:27:17Speaker 03

  You've seen it. Yeah. Yeah.

• 1:27:19Emma Grede?

  It kind of is faith.

• 1:27:20Speaker 03

  That is. It is faith. It's like I have never been like this calmer person or a more confident person. But I just believe that I can become that.

• 1:27:33Emma Grede?

  My goodness, there. I mean, we needed like a breath gap just in this day to day. That's like a really quite a lot to take in.

• 1:27:42Speaker 03

  It is. It is. But that's the beauty.

• 1:27:44Emma Grede?

  Because that's not how people think about therapy. We think about therapy in a way to like get us through this thing that's bothering us or like to, you know, I don't know, but it's not.

• 1:27:55Speaker 03

  The growth, the evolution.

• 1:27:57Emma Grede?

  Yes.

• 1:27:58Speaker 03

  You know, that I wanna bloom, right? Not just, I wanna like work on my stuff.

• 1:28:03Emma Grede?

  Yes.

• 1:28:04Speaker 03

  It's like, I, I wanna be the fullness of myself. I wanna expand. I wanna grow.

• 1:28:10Emma Grede?

  If someone listening right now is still running from the things that are stifling from them, from the pain, what would you want them to know right now?

• 1:28:21Speaker 03

  I would say the only way you will discover that you are bigger than your pain is to stop running. And the more you run, the bigger the shadow of the pain, because it's convincing you that it's bigger than you. Yeah. And so if the idea of standing still.

• 1:28:47Speaker 03

  Is intimidating or overwhelming to know you don't have to do it by yourself. So you can get into therapy and then stand still. And that tide is gonna come in, the stuff you've been running from. Because it's exhausting to spend a life running.

• 1:29:05Emma Grede?

  It's exhausting.

• 1:29:06Speaker 03

  Right? That's why for some people, quiet is painful. Stillness is painful, because then the things I'm running from catch up with me.

• 1:29:15Emma Grede?

  Yeah.

• 1:29:15Speaker 03

  Right? So then I have to have the TV on.

• 1:29:17Emma Grede?

  You've just gotta keep it moving. Yes.

• 1:29:19Speaker 03

  Yeah, I gotta have all my apps.

• 1:29:20Emma Grede?

  We all know that you sleep well. Yeah.

• 1:29:21Speaker 03

  Right? And so this is a great season of your life to give yourself the capacity to slow down, to stop running.

• 1:29:33Emma Grede?

  Oh, I love that.

• 1:29:34Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:29:34Emma Grede?

  It's a good moment.

• 1:29:35Speaker 03

  We're deserving of it.

• 1:29:36Emma Grede?

  Yes.

• 1:29:37Speaker 03

  Right?

• 1:29:37Emma Grede?

  Yeah, but you have to believe that you're deserving of it.

• 1:29:39Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:29:40Emma Grede?

  Right? You really, really do.

• 1:29:41Speaker 03

  Or what also happens is sometimes we just get exhausted. Or it catches up with us, right? Some people were running and running and running, and now their children are the age they were when the trauma started. Now, like, it hits.

• 1:29:54Emma Grede?

  It hits.

• 1:29:55Speaker 03

  Right?

• 1:29:55Emma Grede?

  It really, really hits.

• 1:29:57Speaker 03

  So you can, you can slow down, or it can catch you. But either way, you will be confronted with yourself.

• 1:30:04Emma Grede?

  Yep. I mean, it's interesting because, you know, I have a strong belief that you can't really manifest true success without being whole yourself. And I had a brilliant conversation with Charlamagne the God.

• 1:30:17Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 1:30:17Emma Grede?

  And we spoke about some of this. And I just wondered what, what wholeness means to you and, and why, why it's essential for real success.

• 1:30:27Speaker 03

  Yes, absolutely. So to be whole is to accept all of the different parts of yourself. That I accept them and that I nurture them and that I get to know them. And so

• 1:30:43Emma Grede?

  Even the bad thoughts.

• 1:30:44Speaker 03

  Yes. Oh, especially the bad parts. Cause when I don't, when I'm not tuned in to those, then they are running my life.

• 1:30:52Emma Grede?

  Yeah.

• 1:30:52Speaker 03

  They might be in the driver's seat, cause I'm pretending like la la la, I don't see it. Yeah.

• 1:30:57Emma Grede?

  But they're there.

• 1:30:58Speaker 03

  They're there. And the people you're close to are having close encounters with those aspects of yourself.

• 1:31:05Emma Grede?

  Yeah.

• 1:31:05Speaker 03

  So even if you don't see it having a consequence to you, those you care about are paying a price for that. So when we think about success, we have to recognize, or I invite us to recognize that if there are aspects of myself that I'm neglecting, or that I'm trying not to see, that is taking energy.

• 1:31:30Emma Grede?

  Yes.

• 1:31:30Speaker 03

  Right? Cause I'm trying to suppress those things. So I'm not showing up to life with my full like hands and heart and eyes open.

• 1:31:39Emma Grede?

  Cause you're too busy pushing things down.

• 1:31:41Speaker 03

  I'm so busy, suppression is work. Denial is work. And so then when I can like take in the fullness of me, now I can like, I can give all of that to life, right?

• 1:31:58Emma Grede?

  Yeah.

• 1:31:58Speaker 03

  To show up in truth. And when I accept the, all of these different aspects of myself, then there's no duplicate. Right? Nope. No one can be another you.

• 1:32:10Emma Grede?

  No.

• 1:32:10Speaker 03

  But if I'm like hiding it, cause I wanna be acceptable, you know, now I'm just kind of trudging along.

• 1:32:17Emma Grede?

  Yeah.

• 1:32:17Speaker 03

  It's not even me. So some of us have not introduced our full selves to the world, but some of us have not introduced our full selves to us. Right? So it's like, wouldn't this be a good year to meet you?

• 1:32:30Emma Grede?

  Wouldn't it?

• 1:32:32Speaker 03

  Wouldn't it?

• 1:32:32Emma Grede?

  Yeah.

• 1:32:33Speaker 03

  Yeah. It'd be like, you're, and that's why I especially say for people who think solitude is punishment. Oh, then you haven't met yourself.

• 1:32:40Emma Grede?

  No, I love being with me. There's nothing more that I try to search for. I'm always trying to get rid of one kid, one husband. I'm like, leave me alone and let me be by myself. But people find that really hard. And I, you know, I think about, you know, jobs are fleeting. Business is fleeting, success is fleeting. And all you're left with is you, right? You're all that you are guaranteed to have. And so what are the best ways that we can focus on that and nurture ourselves? If you, everything that you know and everything that you teach and everything that you learned. If, if we do a couple of things today, like what should we do to make sure that we are looking after ourselves?

• 1:33:20Speaker 03

  Yeah. The first thing I'll say is tell yourself the truth. Yeah. We mentioned other people lying to us, but sometimes we lie to ourselves.

• 1:33:30Emma Grede?

  Don't be one of them.

• 1:33:31Speaker 03

  Right? And so if I want to be well, I have to first acknowledge the wounds, right? I can't heal what I won't acknowledge. You can feel more than one thing at the same time.

• 1:33:43Emma Grede?

  Yes.

• 1:33:44Speaker 03

  Right? So you might be excited about this work initiative, but still be exhausted, right? Or you might be grateful for this open door.

• 1:33:52Emma Grede?

  Yes.

• 1:33:52Speaker 03

  And still disappointed about some other closed doors. And so I tell myself the truth and I tell myself the fullness of the truth, recognizing I'm a complicated person.

• 1:34:05Speaker 03

  So then I have to make room for my, all my layers, right? And then a part of me living well is choosing well, uh, the people I bring into my inner circle.

• 1:34:17Emma Grede?

  Yes.

• 1:34:18Speaker 03

  Right? So I want to be cordial, kind, polite to everyone, but who are the people I hold close? Because that can either edify me or drain me.

• 1:34:29Emma Grede?

  Yes.

• 1:34:29Speaker 03

  Right? And I, I tell people sometimes the reason our healing has been delayed is we keep surrounding ourselves with people who cause us to feel bad about ourselves, right? So then you never got to heal because the lie keeps repeating.

• 1:34:45Emma Grede?

  It keeps going.

• 1:34:46Speaker 03

  Yeah, yeah. And then, you know, that holistic piece of what am I doing for my body? What am I doing for my heart? What am I doing for my spirit? What am I doing for my financial health? So, you know, and to notice for yourself, what do you lean towards? And what are the things you avoid? Because we have things we're just more comfortable with. So let me lean into the things I was not as familiar with.

• 1:35:16Emma Grede?

  That's excellent advice, really excellent advice. Talking of excellent advice, one of the things that I love to do is get on my girlfriend group chat.

• 1:35:23Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:35:23Emma Grede?

  And ask them what they want to ask you. So this is a way of me not getting angry calls from English women.

• 1:35:28Speaker 03

  Okay, right, they didn't get to it.

• 1:35:30Emma Grede?

  No, no, no, they're like, we need, we need our questions answered. So, okay, one of my girls said in the group chat, I'm successful, but I'm exhausted. I don't even understand what part of me is tired. Okay, that really rang true for me. What do you say to women that feel deep fatigue?

• 1:35:46Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:35:46Emma Grede?

  But they don't know how to name it and they don't know what they can do about it.

• 1:35:49Speaker 03

  You're very good. So the first is the acknowledgement.

• 1:35:52Emma Grede?

  Mm hmm.

• 1:35:53Speaker 03

  And to know that it's deeper than a nap. It's not just I didn't get enough sleep, right? My soul is tired. And so then what we want to look at.

• 1:36:01Emma Grede?

  That, that part there.

• 1:36:02Speaker 03

  Right, my soul is tired.

• 1:36:04Emma Grede?

  That part there, it's like, it's not solved by me resting this weekend.

• 1:36:07Speaker 03

  No, it's not. You know, you can get a full night's sleep and wake up tired.

• 1:36:14Speaker 03

  Why you, wait, this getting up like, oh, God.

• 1:36:17Emma Grede?

  Uh, it's like, yes, yes, we all know that feeling.

• 1:36:20Speaker 03

  So what I would say is to take a look at two things. One, what are you doing that's actually fulfilling? Because when I'm, when I'm flowing and what's fulfilling, not just what I'm good at.

• 1:36:34Emma Grede?

  Mm hmm. What's fulfilling?

• 1:36:35Speaker 03

  What is fulfilling?

• 1:36:36Emma Grede?

  What's filling you up?

• 1:36:37Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 1:36:37Emma Grede?

  What's giving you joy? What's energizing you?

• 1:36:40Speaker 03

  There you go.

• 1:36:41Emma Grede?

  Yes.

• 1:36:41Speaker 03

  When I do that, it energizes me, right? It strengthens me. It makes me look forward to like, I can't wait for tomorrow.

• 1:36:49Emma Grede?

  Yes.

• 1:36:49Speaker 03

  Right, versus like, oh, I gotta do it again.

• 1:36:51Emma Grede?

  Yeah.

• 1:36:52Speaker 03

  Right? So let me choose things that are fulfilling. And then for me to say, what do I need to start saying no to? That I've been saying yes to out of obligation and habit. That's what's exhausting you, you know, the yeses that you that and maybe for a season it was okay, but you're tired of it. You don't want to do it anymore.

• 1:37:17Emma Grede?

  No, no.

• 1:37:17Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:37:18Emma Grede?

  So I go back to the beginning of this podcast because we tell you how to say no.

• 1:37:21Speaker 03

  That's it.

• 1:37:21Emma Grede?

  Like you've got to say the no's.

• 1:37:22Speaker 03

  Say no.

• 1:37:24Emma Grede?

  You've got to say no.

• 1:37:24Speaker 03

  And and your your real ones will be okay with the fact that you changed your mind.

• 1:37:31Emma Grede?

  Yes.

• 1:37:31Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:37:32Emma Grede?

  The real ones.

• 1:37:32Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 1:37:33Emma Grede?

  And everybody else, like maybe they're not the ones.

• 1:37:36Speaker 03

  No, the the other ones are just looking for what you can do for them.

• 1:37:39Emma Grede?

  Yes. Not what you need.

• 1:37:41Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:37:41Emma Grede?

  Right?

• 1:37:42Speaker 03

  They're gonna be disappointed and that's okay.

• 1:37:44Emma Grede?

  And it's so interesting because your true friends, your real girlfriends.

• 1:37:48Speaker 03

  Right.

• 1:37:48Emma Grede?

  Always get it.

• 1:37:49Speaker 03

  Always.

• 1:37:50Emma Grede?

  Always get it.

• 1:37:51Speaker 03

  So happy. They're like, oh, you're just gonna stay in. Good.

• 1:37:54Emma Grede?

  Yeah, me too.

• 1:37:56Emma Grede?

  Thank you.

• 1:37:56Speaker 03

  They're like, I should do that.

• 1:37:59Emma Grede?

  You just gave me the night back.

• 1:38:00Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:38:00Emma Grede?

  I love that. What would you say to a woman who's doing all the things, working, mothering, showing up, but still feels like she's failing silently?

• 1:38:09Speaker 03

  Yeah. So the one person that you're failing is yourself. And so then you want to say, what is your unacknowledged dream? You've put a dream on the back burner. It's not a professional dream, or it's not the professional dream you've been pursuing. And you want to get it back. You want to get you back.

• 1:38:34Speaker 03

  So that's one, the neglected dream, the forgotten dream. The other one is unrealistic expectations, right? So you may be a great mother, but your idea of a great mother is just, you know, somewhere out of a magazine.

• 1:38:50Emma Grede?

  Somewhere off of Instagram.

• 1:38:52Speaker 03

  Yes, yes, exactly.

• 1:38:54Emma Grede?

  Yeah.

• 1:38:54Speaker 03

  Exactly. So get more realistic expectations.

• 1:38:58Emma Grede?

  And both of those things come down to what you said at the beginning, just telling the truth.

• 1:39:02Speaker 03

  Right.

• 1:39:03Emma Grede?

  Right? Being truthful with yourself.

• 1:39:04Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:39:05Emma Grede?

  All right, I've got another question. So many of us say we want peace, but we stay in chaos because it's familiar. How do you start choosing peace when peace feels foreign?

• 1:39:15Speaker 03

  Ah, that is very good. And what I say to that is, this is a trauma response. And what is the story I have told myself about chaos? Sometimes the story is where there's chaos, I'm needed.

• 1:39:33Speaker 03

  So if things were calm, then maybe nobody needs me. And then why would they choose me? Or why would they appreciate me? Sometimes the story is if people care, then there'll be a lot of drama. And if they don't care, then they're just calm. So then we are telling ourselves a false story. Uh, sometimes the story is that peace is boring. And it's not boring. Right? So what is the story about chaos? And can I dare to write a new story?

• 1:40:13Emma Grede?

  What a fantastic answer. What lucky brains I have.

• 1:40:16Speaker 03

  Ah, I love these friends.

• 1:40:19Emma Grede?

  They're gonna love me, let me tell you. They're just like, well, we've been queuing up on that website.

• 1:40:25Emma Grede?

  Okay, I only have rapid fire left for you. But I want to ask you a few questions that are my favorite questions to ask. What is the first thing you do when you wake up?

• 1:40:33Speaker 03

  Say thank you to both God and uh, to my mom who passed away last year.

• 1:40:39Emma Grede?

  Oh, I'm so sorry.

• 1:40:40Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:40:40Emma Grede?

  And you say thank you to your mom?

• 1:40:42Speaker 03

  Yes, uh, like this moment, it's her. Uh, she just, she uh, paved the way in major, major ways. So I'm in perpetual gratitude.

• 1:40:54Emma Grede?

  Oh.

• 1:40:55Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:40:55Emma Grede?

  I can't think of anything that a mother would want to hear more from her daughter than that. That you thank her every day.

• 1:41:02Speaker 03

  Yes, yes.

• 1:41:03Emma Grede?

  That's incredible.

• 1:41:04Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:41:04Emma Grede?

  What's the last thing you do before you go to bed at night?

• 1:41:07Speaker 03

  Ah, I said gratitude again. Uh, being in stillness. Well, first I'll say, yeah, I say prayers with my kids.

• 1:41:15Emma Grede?

  Hmm.

• 1:41:16Speaker 03

  I enjoy them, they're big personalities.

• 1:41:18Emma Grede?

  I love.

• 1:41:19Speaker 03

  Uh, but then, uh, yeah, laying in, in appreciation for the day, for what happened today.

• 1:41:28Emma Grede?

  Amazing. What are you currently aspiring for in your professional life?

• 1:41:33Speaker 03

  Yes. My podcast is audio and maybe I'm gonna be like you and add video.

• 1:41:40Emma Grede?

  With like, yes, come on now with these outfits. What am I doing for? Come on. What are you gonna dress for in the morning?

• 1:41:47Speaker 03

  I can tell you right now, like I record it literally in my bedroom.

• 1:41:51Emma Grede?

  Okay, fine.

• 1:41:52Speaker 03

  It's the big step.

• 1:41:53Emma Grede?

  That's peaceful.

• 1:41:53Speaker 03

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. But one day, we're gonna get the videos.

• 1:41:58Emma Grede?

  You do have such a very lovely voice, though, to tune into. So maybe, I mean, I can understand the reason for doing both.

• 1:42:04Speaker 03

  How the audio is good.

• 1:42:05Emma Grede?

  Okay, so maybe a little bit of video. We have it to look forward to. What are you currently aspiring for in your personal life?

• 1:42:11Speaker 03

  This is a mom thing, so I don't, yeah. My daughter's doing study abroad in the fall in Ghana, West Africa.

• 1:42:18Emma Grede?

  Amazing.

• 1:42:19Speaker 03

  And I'm gonna fly over there with her to set up and let her soar.

• 1:42:24Emma Grede?

  How old is she?

• 1:42:25Speaker 03

  Yes, nineteen. She's a theater major and she's gonna take like African women playwrights and the African documentary and, oh.

• 1:42:35Emma Grede?

  You're dying of pride.

• 1:42:36Speaker 03

  I'm so excited.

• 1:42:37Emma Grede?

  I mean, that's amazing. What a great trip to do together, though. That's a real like mom, daughter moment.

• 1:42:43Speaker 03

  But I'll, you know, go and set up.

• 1:42:46Emma Grede?

  Check it's okay.

• 1:42:47Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:42:47Emma Grede?

  Check she's doing all right. Yeah. And what is a book that's changed your life?

• 1:42:51Speaker 03

  Daughter Drink This Water by Jaya John.

• 1:42:55Emma Grede?

  I have not read it and I will.

• 1:42:56Speaker 03

  You will love it.

• 1:42:57Emma Grede?

  I will immediately buy it. And what is something you valued when you were starting out that you no longer do?

• 1:43:03Speaker 03

  What other people think. I'm free. I'm free and I call it my jubilee, so I'm fifty one now. Once I got fifty, I'm like, yeah, jubilee, let's just flow and, yep.

• 1:43:17Emma Grede?

  Let it go.

• 1:43:18Speaker 03

  And what's, what is meant to align will align and what is meant to be released will be released. And it's a, it's a good life to be free.

• 1:43:27Emma Grede?

  Free in your jubilee?

• 1:43:28Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:43:28Emma Grede?

  I love that. What's something that you value now that you didn't back in the day?

• 1:43:33Speaker 03

  Mutual relationships. You know, I was, I was the strong one. And now I have this circle, we talk about your friends. I have this circle of friends where like, any of them could, you could interview and you would love them. Like, they're brilliant, they're amazing. And so it's not, it's not one sided. It's a beautiful flow and an ease. We pour and we receive and I love it.

• 1:43:58Emma Grede?

  And it's so needed. Yeah. So needed. Yeah. The best. Lucky you. Thank you. Thank you so much. I loved our conversation.

• 1:44:10Emma Grede?

  If you're loving this podcast, be sure to click follow on your favorite listening platform. While you're there, give us a review and a five star rating and share an episode you loved with a friend. We'll be so grateful. Aspire with Emma Grede is presented by Odyssey. I'm your host, Emma Grede. Our executive producers are Corinne Gilliard Fisher, Derek Brown, and me. Our executive producers from Odyssey are Maddie Sprung Kaiser, Leah Reese Dennis, Asha Saluja, and Jenna Weiss-Berman. Our producer is Kristin Torres. Sound design and engineering by Bill Schultz. Angela Peluso is our booker. Original music by Charles Black. Video production by Evan Cox, Kurt Courtney, Andrew Steele, Carlos Delgado, and Arnie

• 1:44:52Emma Grede?

  Agassi. Social media by Olivia Homan. Special thanks go to Brittany Smith, Sidney Ford, my teams at Jonesworks and WNE, Maura Curran, Josefina Francis, Hillary Schuff, Eric Donnelly, Kate Hutchinson Rose, Tim Meeke, Sean Cherry, and Lauren Vieira. If you have questions for me, you can DM me at aspirewithemmagreed. Grede is spelled G R E D E. That's aspire, A S P I R E, with Emma Grede. Or you can submit a question to me on my website, emmagreed.me.

• 1:45:29Speaker 04

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