Martin Sheen

Martin Sheen -- actor, activist, patriarch of one of the most storied acting families in the business! And now a fellow podcaster. The legendary Martin Sheen joins Josh to talk about his new venture and to reminisce about his early days with Al Pacino and his iconic works -- from BADLANDS and APOCALYPSE NOW to THE WEST WING and THE DEPARTED. UPCOMING EVENTS Brendan Fraser 11/18 in NYC -- ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Tickets here⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Check out the ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Happy Sad Confused patreon here⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠! We've got discount codes to live events, merch, early access, exclusive episodes, video versions of the podcast, and more! Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

  Visible puts the ultimate wireless hack in the palm of your hand. With unlimited 5G wireless data and hotspot designed to keep you connected. Powered by Verizon's 5G network. And no contract holding you back. Plans start at $25 a month. Or get the premium Visible Plus Pro Plan and save $10 on your first month when you use promo code HACK. Make the switch at visible.com. Terms apply. See visible.com for details.

• 0:31Speaker 01

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• 0:59Josh Horowitz?

  Is there a speech, a line, that speaks to you to this day? From West Wing? I know, it's a lot of material, but is there one in particular?

• 1:08Speaker 03

  My very first line. "I am the Lord thy God; thou shalt not have false gods before me." It was my entrance.

• 1:16Josh Horowitz?

  Good entrance.

• 1:17Speaker 04

  Prepare your ears, humans. Happy, Sad, Confused begins now.

• 1:24Josh Horowitz?

  Hey guys, it's Josh. Welcome to Happy, Sad, Confused. Really cool one today. A legend. Someone that's been doing it a long, long time and has always delivered. Martin Sheen is on the podcast. Martin Sheen, Apocalypse Now, Badlands, The West Wing. Truly an honor to have him on the podcast for the first time. I hope you guys enjoyed this episode. Thank you, as always, for checking us out on YouTube, or Spotify, or however you're enjoying the podcast. A little backstory on this, because this is a fun, interesting, I think, interesting backstory. Just worlds colliding in a strange bizarre way. If you follow the podcast, you follow my work,

• 2:04Josh Horowitz?

  maybe you know, a few months back, I got the opportunity to host a reunion for The Breakfast Club. This was the first time the cast had reunited, particularly with Emilio. Emilio had not seen them in decades. And what I learned for that live event, and you can look this up online, was Emilio really, you know, without tooting my own horn, decided to do that event in part because he wanted to talk to me on the podcast. And we recorded a great, great episode. We got tons of great feedback on that one. Check that one out, too. That has led me to get to know the Estevez clan.

• 2:47Josh Horowitz?

  What a privilege. Truly. Like, I know, you know, Emilio got into a little bit since that conversation and talked to a couple of his siblings, talked to Martin, and Martin now has a podcast. And, you know, he references it here, so I'll reference it in the preamble. I did talk to Martin and the family a little bit as they were kind of put, he was putting his podcast together, just because I've been doing it a while, and they were looking for some advice, guidance, and I gave them the little that I have, having been in the podcast game for a while. So, yeah, wow. Like, growing up, watching Martin Sheen's work, and Charlie's, and Emilio's,

• 3:32Josh Horowitz?

  and to, I don't know, know them now in this capacity is one of the blessings, one of the unexpected blessings of being in this business and, I don't know, sticking around a while. So, that's kind of the preamble. So, I was very well aware that Martin Sheen was gonna do this podcast for a while, and now it's here. And I highly recommend it. It is called The Martin Sheen Podcast. It's available wherever you get your podcasts. And it's kind of exactly what you want from a Martin Sheen podcast. These are very well-crafted, 20-minute episodes that are mixtures of poetry and... Stories and conversations and all told in that very unique Martin Sheen timber,

• 4:17Josh Horowitz?

  that voice that is so recognizable. He's a reassuring voice in these unsteady times. And a man who I have a lot of admiration for as not only an artist, but as a human being. If you look up his activism and the way he's kind of stood up for causes that I generally agree with. He has walked the walk, talked the talk over his long, amazing life. So really privileged that I got a chance to have this conversation with him about a lot of things. Before we get to that, quick reminder, as always, patreon.com, I have to say, patreon.com/happysetconfused. Early access, discount codes, live events. We've got Brendan Fraser coming up very soon, November 18th at 92nd Street Y.

• 5:02Josh Horowitz?

  Tickets are still available, but it's selling fast. Get in on that. And yeah, as I always say, supporting us over there helps us make more over here. This is one of those things we, you know, we spent over an hour, Martin and I talking, but still it's like just scratching the surface. How can you cover his career? But we do get to, in addition to, of course, talking about the podcast, some of the greatest hits of Martin Sheen, including Badlands and Apocalypse Now and The West Wing. And I want to talk to him about Wall Street, working with Charlie on that, even a little bit of Spider-Man talk, The Departed. So I think you get your money's worth in this. And like I said, one of the, one of those, that's a real privilege to spend some,

• 5:47Josh Horowitz?

  some quality time with someone that's made a big, you know, a big impact in the world, in the artistic world and just as a, you know, an activist. So without any further ado, here's my conversation with the one and only Martin Sheen, everybody.

• 6:03Josh Horowitz?

  I am so pleased, pleased as punch, to have the one and only, the legend that is Mr. Martin Sheen on my podcast to promote the Martin Sheen Podcast. They're symmetry for you. Martin, thank you so much for the time today.

• 6:14Speaker 03

  Thank you, Josh. I'm delighted.

• 6:16Josh Horowitz?

  As you know, I've had the privilege, I feel like I'm, I know like half the family, two thirds of the family. I've gotten to know a lot of you in recent months. Emilio and I had a great chat a few months back. So, and what I just want to say about that is, A, it's, it's not lost to me, like, what a privilege it is. I grew up with your films and Emilio and Charlie's, but also to see the family is so strong and there's so much love and connection between all of you. And that's a testament to what you and Janet have done. So, I don't know, just kudos all around, I guess.

• 6:49Speaker 03

  Well, that's, I guess we're projecting a pretty good image.

• 6:53Josh Horowitz?

  You are, you are. So, so first, before we get to the podcast, I'm curious, when you're out in the world, you get Martin, but I would imagine sometimes you get Ramon or Mr. President. Do you get, do you get Mr. President or Ramon more in your, in your daily life?

• 7:11Speaker 03

  I get them an equal portion, I guess, yeah. Mr. President, particularly in, since 47, Second Coming, has been pretty frequent. You know, a lot of people say, like Mr. Clinton used to say, whenever I'd see him, "You're still my president, Martin."

• 7:34Josh Horowitz?

  Well, there is, there is a, a kind of a burden there too, because as you well know, and we'll get, we can get to this a little bit later on, but like, your image is so fused with some of the roles you've played, in particular Jed Bartlet, that like people, I'm sure, project upon you, you know, this, this larger-than-life mystique. This, I don't know, does, does that ever feel like a burden, that like you have to almost live up to people's ideal of, of who you are?

• 8:02Speaker 03

  Oh, no, no, no, it's pure fantasy. I mean, we, we, we worked in a sort of parallel universe to the real White House when we began in nineteen ninety-nine, and the show ran through two thousand and six. So, we were, we started in a democratic administration, and, but the majority of our, uh, uh, years on the air were with the Republican, with the first, uh, second George Bush. So, uh, uh, I, I was often asked, uh, if I had, if, if Bartlet were a Republican, would I have done it? And without hesitation, I said, as long as Aaron Sorkin wrote it, of course I would. Yeah.

• 8:46Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah, and he would have written the hell out of it, I'm sure.

• 8:49Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 8:50Josh Horowitz?

  Um, and, and then on, on the Ramon side, I know you've, I've talked about this a lot, but I'm just curious. I mean, like, you've been very frank, and you, correct me if I'm wrong, that there's a bit of regret that, like, you didn't get to live your professional life with that name, but it was a different time, obviously, when you were coming up. Um, did you, did, I'm sure you've reconciled that long ago, but like, I, I'm curious, like, I don't know where you're at with that name change, and did your father ever have, come to terms with that, or was it an issue for him that you had changed your name professionally?

• 9:20Speaker 03

  Uh, it did, um, it did bother him. He, he didn't express it as such, but I remember he came to New York, um, and spent a couple of days with us and came to see my show. I was on Broadway at the time, in a show called The Subject Was Roses, and I saw him looking at the marquee, and, uh, he did not recognize the name. But he never said anything, but I knew from his, you know, the look on his face and so forth. Um, you know, officially, I've never changed my name. I'm still Ramon Gerard Antonio Estevez, and I love my name. I just...

• 10:00Speaker 03

  Arrived at a time and a place where it was hard enough to to get a job as an actor when I started in 1959 in New York City. To have a surname, a Hispanic surname at that time, was not an advantage because unfortunately, there was great prejudice in the city against Puerto Ricans, the Puerto Rican community. Of course, they were American citizens by birth. They still are. But they were the newest immigrants so-called at the time. And they were taking the blame for all of the problems with the city at that time. So I identified with the community and I was very proud to be a part of them.

• 10:44Speaker 03

  But it was in name only. So I kept my name, but I realized I had to kind of step outside and be kind of more anonymous in terms of nationality at that time. Yeah, I regret it deeply. And I remember when, you know, my children started to come into the profession and they were deciding whether or not to use the Estvez or to change it. And Emilio was on the verge of changing the last name. We're just using, you know, Emilio Sheen and then he saw it in print. And he was just, this just doesn't fit, you know? Right.

• 11:28Speaker 03

  So and then I, and I frankly, I begged him to keep it. I said, you know, it's one of my biggest regrets is that I didn't keep my name. And I said, you know, we're going into a new millennium and Hispanic people in our country, and particularly in the state of California, are going to be, you know, almost in the majority. And so I said, I think that there, you know, the reverse is happening for you that I had to deal with, you know? The Hispanic population is well ingrained in the community and speaks with its own voice very proudly and distinctly.

• 12:13Speaker 03

  And you're going to be a part of that. And I hope in some way it had an influence on him. But he made his own decision and to keep Emilio. And I was, I was very proud of him. I still am.

• 12:33Speaker 00

  Visible puts the ultimate wireless hack in the palm of your hand. With unlimited 5G wireless data and hotspot designed to keep you connected. Powered by Verizon's 5G network. And no contract holding you back. Plans start at $25 a month. Or get the premium Visible Plus Pro Plan and save $10 on your first month when you use promo code HACK. Make the switch at visible.com. Terms apply. See visible.com for details.

• 13:04Speaker 05

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• 13:36Josh Horowitz?

  The new podcast is fantastic. I want to give it some love. I got a chance to sneak a peek at it. By the time people will be able to see or watch or listen to this, at least one or two episodes will have been out. And it's a very, it is purely Martin Sheen. It reflects so much of you and your passions in different ways. I've heard you talk before, I don't know if this was an influence. There's definitely a bit of the Garrison Keillor storytelling behind this. Was that something on your mind when you kind of decided what a Martin Sheen podcast would even be?

• 14:07Speaker 03

  Very much so. Garrison Keillor is one of my heroes. I think he's one of the best storytellers in American history. And I had the privilege of doing, I guess, eight or nine episodes of Prairie Home Companion. So I got to know him personally. In fact, I did one show in his home base in Minnesota. And he was in the...

• 14:38Speaker 03

  Oh gosh, the famous author's names of the theater is his home base. That's Scott Fitzgerald, the Fitzgerald Theater. And I was in my dressing room the night that we were going to go on the air and I was singing my favorite hymn. And there was a knock on the door and I said, come in. And it was Garrison. And he said, what are you singing? I said, that's my favorite hymn. And what's it called? I said, it's called, how can I keep from singing? Well, you're going to sing that on the air tonight. Oh, my God, no. Yes, you will. I'll get with what's his name and we'll make sure you're in the right key. But you're on for tonight. What could I do? You know, Garrison Keillor was asking me to sing on Prairie Home Companion. I'd never sung publicly anywhere.

• 15:19Speaker 03

  And so, okay, I worked with the orchestra leader. And he said I had the right key. And so I did it. And it was the first time I ever sung in public. And it was on that show. So, yeah.

• 15:34Josh Horowitz?

  Can we expect any singing on this podcast or strictly poetry storytelling?

• 15:38Speaker 03

  They have a section edited that they are our engineer and Renee, our producer. And sometimes they just get to talking and I forget that he's recording everything. And so now it's called the open mic. And so you have me talking about a lot of things. But the majority, 99% of the show is scripted. The poems, of course. But all the stories I've written myself, they're all personal. They're all biographical. And some of the stories I've never told before. So, but I was raised on the radio.

• 16:23Speaker 03

  I love the radio because you had to use your imagination. All those characters we were hearing in the series, you know, during school nights, we were allowed to stay up late to hear our favorite programs. And but on the weekends, you know, we got free time, particularly Sunday night with Jack Benny and Ollie. Those wonderful shows. And so that was ingrained in me because it's like reading a book. It's a personal experience. And so when I decided to do the podcast, I made that a clear aspect of it, that I would tell a story, but the audience would know

• 17:05Speaker 03

  that there was a beginning, a middle, and the end, and that it was personal. In some cases, it's deeply personal. I believe that's the only way to do it, because if something's not personal, it's impersonal, and who cares? Yeah. At least I cared, and I hope that our audience will. But Garrison Keillor, yeah, one of my, I would say, Garrison had a, without knowing, I mean, I've never spoken to him about it, he doesn't even know about the podcast. I hope he knows I'm bragging about him now. But, yeah, he had a profound effect on me. I was a longtime fan of Prairie

• 17:47Speaker 03

  Home Companion. I remember one time on the set of The West Wing, I was doing an impersonation of him. I was just between takes, and Allison Janney said, God forgive me, Allison, she knows. She said, that's pretty good, impersonation of Garrison. And I said, how would you know? She said, I've been doing the show for two years. She would do the show, she'd fly out to Minneapolis, she was in New York at that time, and do the show, and go back home. And it was like, oh, my God. And when I learned that, I peppered her with questions about. And the one thing I wanted to know was, did they have a script ahead of time for Lake Wobegon? Right.

• 18:32Speaker 03

  She said, you kidding? Nobody knew ever what he was gonna do. And they would just give him a couple of rattles on the piano when it got, you know, timed to wrap it up. They never knew where he was going. He didn't either. And it was so personal. And yet, you saw how absolutely brilliant it was, and we hung on every word. And he was that kind of storyteller. But he had the mind of a poet, and he had an imagination that just inspired me. And yes, when I started doing the podcast, I thought, boy, if I can get people to listen.

• 19:12Speaker 03

  Uh, to, to our, our, our program, the way I listened to Prairie Home Companion and Garrison Keillor, why, I thought that would have been a great, a great achievement. So we'll see.

• 19:24Josh Horowitz?

  No, I mean, you're, you're, you're speaking my language. I, I like my, my parents are of your generation and I, I will always remember my dad. And this probably made an impact because radio was my first love and podcasting arguably is radio essentially. Uh, was like listening on car trips to his tapes of like The Shadow and Green Hornet and all of that. And there's something that can't be replaced from just like, yes, your imagination, imagination, meaning the voice of someone iconic that can really tell you, tell a tale and you, you certainly can. Um, I, I, I'm curious, I mean, look, we're, we're at a very fraught, fragile, crazy time, time in the world. And I think your voice is a steadying, it's, it's, it's, it's something that we, that we really is a comfort for a lot of us.

• 20:07Josh Horowitz?

  And I think that's part of this too. Is, is, is part of the mission statement of this? I don't know. Is it tied to where we're at in the world right now and I don't know, providing comfort for others?

• 20:19Speaker 03

  Well, I, I don't know how it's going to land, if it's going to land. I can't tell. Uh, we're, we're going to know, uh, I guess soon enough. Um, but yeah, I, I, you know, Renee was trying to get me to identify myself in the podcast. That, you, you know, she, we did some ads and, and she wrote some copy for me to, uh, record, which I did. And I would make adjustments here and there, but she said, uh, that I really should make it clear that I'm going to bring that same person that I can never separate myself from.

• 20:59Speaker 03

  Um, that would have an opinion about things and, and hopefully would have a, some measure of encouragement or at, at least acknowledgement that, um, we are in very, very, uh, scary times. And, and if I could just be, um, a, a-

• 21:23Speaker 03

  Some, you know, some kind of echo that says, you know, this is only fleeting. We have to be aware of one another. We are here to walk each other home. Don't leave anybody out. Um, don't accept the opposition's term for enemy. We do not accept enemies. The greatest enemy I have is me. The only person I've ever been able to influence is myself. I don't have any illusions about that. No matter what issue I was involved in, or whenever I went to a demonstration, I never anticipated I'd make any difference. Uh, whether the, the, the protest was against nuclear weapons,

• 22:05Speaker 03

  or against a, a specific war, or, uh, an issue homelessness, or, uh, uh, uh, you know, housing, uh, whatever the issues are, they're all intertwined. You can't separate one issue from the other. It's all about social justice. And, uh, people's rights and freedoms and people's, um, uh, how should I say, um, responsibility. We, we have a responsibility. We didn't get, uh, 250 years of freedom come next year by accident. A lot of people sacrificed a lot, um, including their lives over the last two and a half centuries. And so it's worth fighting for.

• 22:47Speaker 03

  And we're getting to a place now where clearly it's not hard to see where these people are going. Uh, the militarization, uh, on the pretext of, you know, uh, this city is, is burning up and is consumed by crime and, and so forth. It's a lot of crap and we know that and we have to state that. And we have to be present to the people that are in those cities. Like right now, it's Portland and Chicago and right here in LA, of course, and many more to come. And it's clear to any of us as old as I am, where this guy is headed. You know, we, we read, uh, How Hitler Won,

• 23:28Speaker 03

  a very, uh, interesting book by, uh, Corey Taylor, incidentally, that I did the, uh, The um, preface for, and uh, yeah, these guys, man, they must have read that book. Because they got it down. And the way they're starting with the, you know, setting us up. And the military is a big part of that. So we're gonna get used to military presence in our streets. On an everyday uh, occurrence. And um, you know, it's like when you have to move the cow indoors in a harsh winter. You gotta get used to his presence in your house. Otherwise, you don't have a cow. And uh, so that's the image. But you know, by next year's election,

• 24:11Speaker 03

  uh, there are going to be troops uh, on the ground. And they're gonna have a very strong presence uh, at the ballot box. And we'll never, you know, some of the outcomes. So yeah, there's a lot at stake. Uh, it's called fascism. And there's no other word that describes it. In the shortest possible uh, from here to there, straight line. It's fascism. It's authoritarianism. Uh, it's uh, it's something that we, you know, we've, we've seen it before. And uh, we've seen it, you know, in many other foreign countries. First time we've seen it get this far in this country with this bunch. But we've got to call it what it is.

• 24:54Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah. Well, I mean, I think, I think it is, as you say, it's the gall of doing it in plain sight. It's like, there's nothing subtle about what has been happening the last bunch of years. And it is about vigilance and about calling it out and, and, and not accepting, you know, the sacrifices of our liberties. It's, it's, it's calling it out every single step of the way. Or else, we're gonna lose everything.

• 25:17Speaker 03

  Exactly. And we have to continually be reminded that our rights are not given by the gracious hand of any state. But they must be protected therein. And that's uh, uh, uh, our favorite, you know, one of the favorite, our favorite uh, uh, patriots from the Revolutionary War, Thomas Paine, you know.

• 25:40Josh Horowitz?

  So, um, this is, this is a film and TV podcast. This is a podcast that celebrates actors and filmmakers. So you're gonna have to indulge me, sir. We're gonna do a little bit of greatest hits of your amazing career. I have to ask you some questions because, uh, when do I get nearly an hour with Martin Sheen? It doesn't happen very often, but if you'll indulge me a little bit, um, so the beginnings of your acting career, from what I gather, um, it's a lot of theater work in the 60s, it's a lot of TV guest spots, it's, it's here in my hometown in New York, you're here, and, and you also overlap a bit, as I understand it, with another great, Mr. Al Pacino. Is that fair to say you kind of came up together? I know he always talks about Charles Lauten as his mentor. Was he also a part of your life as well?

• 26:24Speaker 03

  Very much so, yeah. In fact, we devote a whole chapter of our podcast to Charlie Lauten's poetry, yeah, and Al figures in that, because Al had his poems published just kind of privately, and I, you know, had a copy of that, uh, that Charlie gave me, because he wrote a poem, uh, called "Amelio," which is one of my favorite poems, and I, I recited it as well in the podcast, but, um, uh, yeah, Charlie had a profound effect, and his wife Penny Allen, who was a brilliant actress, they're both gone now, God rest them, but their daughter, uh, has been very helpful in us getting the rights to use his poetry.

• 27:07Speaker 03

  And, uh, yeah, Al and I came up together, yeah, we were, um, we were, uh, how shall I say, starving young artists, yeah. We're about the same age and the same temperament. He's a New Yorker, of course, and I'm a Buckeye, you know, so, uh, we had different backgrounds, but we had the same kind of passion. Uh, I remember-

• 27:32Speaker 03

  In the day, you know, we were all, there was a kind of a clique. It was Charlie and Penny and Janet and I and Matt Clark and Johnny, Darren and a few others, a crowd of actors and artists. All of us were kind of equally paired. No one had a nickel between us. We were all, we delivered furniture together. We delivered newspapers together. We hung out together. We got drunk together. We were a very close group, like family. And I remember one time Janet had seen Al in a play that I had not seen. It's called Hello Out There. And she said, do you realize that

• 28:16Speaker 03

  he is going to be a major star? And we were all kind of looking. He said, forgive me, Al, we will know what I mean. I mean it with the greatest love. We said, you mean Little Al? Because that's what we called Little Al. Fortunately, you know, and she said, you bet. And I, oh my God, what did she see that we didn't? We just saw this wonderful young man, so full and vibrant. And he was very funny. He had a great sense of humor. And was like a stand-up comic. But I adored him. I still do. He's one of my heroes.

• 28:51Josh Horowitz?

  He tells, if you indulge me, he tells a really lovely story in his memoir about you, about when he was struggling and you were doing all right in the theater. And he says that you kind of got him a gig as, I guess, an understudy or a background player in one of your plays. And he only learned later that you were paying him out of your own pocket, simply to help Al out when he was not doing as well as you. Is that?

• 29:15Speaker 03

  Sorry, he found out about that. I don't remember that. But he shouldn't have, I shouldn't have let him know that. No, he did understudy me. And he was going through a very difficult period. He was homeless. He was literally sleeping in a friend's bathtub, literally. And I was off the streets by then. And I, yeah, I was doing a play. And I ran into him one day and Al had This great energy, he was always upbeat. You rarely ever, in fact, the only time you would ever see Al in any other

• 29:52Speaker 03

  dimension was when he was acting, if he was acting and he was depressed. You know, or he was angry or joyful, whatever it was, his spirit was so full. Uh, but offstage, uh, he was, he was very dear and sweet and very funny and endearing. And, uh, you could go anywhere with him at any time. You know, one of the best times I ever had with him was we worked together as ushers in the Cinema One and Two up on Upper Third Avenue, I believe it was. And, uh, we, we had, in those days, you, you, you had to wear a tuxedo and you carried a flashlight.

• 30:33Speaker 06

  Yep.

• 30:33Speaker 03

  And when you would deliver people to their seats, you know, what number is that, sir? Follow me, please. Here we go, you know, and be quiet, please. And that sort of thing. We did that for, God, I can't remember, I can't, it was, I don't know, several years. I, I was living in Staten Island at the time. Remember, I used to come in and, and we would meet down in the, um, in the, in the wardroom and get ready and with all these stories. And, and, and, and during our time there, one of the big hits was playing and it, and it was the only theater in New York that had Tom Jones. And so a lot of celebrities were coming in and so we got to march them down the aisle, you know? Albert Finney came in one day and we pretended that we didn't know who he was, you know? Oh, can we help you, sir? Yes, write this.

• 31:22Speaker 03

  And, uh, and other celebrities, I remember Walter Winchell came in one night. And, uh, I, I, I was given to take him to his seat, you know? And so it, it was just a very wonderful time. And we, we didn't think about housing or food or haircuts or more.

• 31:44Speaker 03

  You were in it for the love of the game. Yeah. Yeah, and you know, it was always, if you weren't suffering, you weren't doing it right, you know? Right. And so, you know, and then I came, you know, many years later, one of my favorite phrases is from, well, two characters really. Dostoyevsky once said this most mysterious quote. My greatest fear is that I would not be worthy of my suffering. And that starts you to go inside a little bit. And then, a century later, Viktor Frankl said it after he survived Auschwitz for three, three and a half years.

• 32:26Speaker 03

  And he said that we had to learn to be worthy of our suffering. And that's how they survived at Auschwitz. Because they realized that they, they had to create community, that you couldn't do it on your own. You had to, you know, and I don't know if you've read his, his book, it's one of my favorite books. And it had a profound effect on me. It's called Man's Search for Meaning. And there were like three editions of it, and he added to it as he got older. He died, he was close to 100 years old, it wasn't that long ago, he passed away. But that book had a profound effect on me. And he talked about how you do things and you don't tell anybody. You do them because you cannot not do them and be who you are, or who you're meant to be.

• 33:11Speaker 03

  You're part of something bigger. And he talked about at Auschwitz, they always knew when somebody was fading away. And he, you know, often they would curl up in the bunk, you know? And the lads would come along, now, now come along. And they'd pull his legs and his arms, and they'd stand him up, and they'd lead him out, you know? The work detail, they were, they were in the, the brick buildings, you know? The farm, the place, Auschwitz was two prisons, actually. It was the one prison where the workers lived and would live, you know, survive. And then there was the second one, Berkenau, which was, you know, a mile or so away. And that's where the ovens were. Yeah.

• 33:55Speaker 03

  But these people were kept, as long as they could stand up and work, they were worth something, you know? And that's where Frankl was, and that's where Elie Wiesa was. Right. And Frank was there for a while.

• 34:10Josh Horowitz?

  It's amazing, you know, the profoundness of, yeah, the what humans can rise to in these kind of circumstances and taking care of each other. It goes back to what you were saying about what we're all, what we all have to do, which is look out for each other.

• 34:23Speaker 03

  Yeah, we're here, we're here to walk each other home. If you're looking for, you know, a fundamental, basic reason for living, start with that.

• 34:31Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah, it's a good one.

• 34:32Speaker 03

  We are here to walk each other home.

• 34:35Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 34:42Speaker 00

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• 35:12Speaker 05

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• 35:45Josh Horowitz?

  The first film of yours I want to bring up is, is, of course, Terrence Malick's Badlands. Um. Which, I mean, he wasn't Terrence Malick back then. People might forget, this was his first feature, as I, as I understand it. Did you, I mean, in retrospect, you know what a singular talent he was. At the time, on set, was it obvious, like, this is as much a poet as a filmmaker?

• 36:08Speaker 03

  Oh, yeah, you know, you use the phrase too, because my friend Matt Clark. Called him a screen poet when he saw Badlands and that's the best description I've ever heard of Terrence Malick's talent. Yeah, he is a screen poet and he sees through. And people, you know, I remember when we were doing Badlands, it was a very limited budget and we had the summer of 1972 in the Hunter, Colorado and as we were going on, the crew began to diminish because, you know, it was kind of base salary and it was going on for a while and, and a lot of the, the crew didn't understand what he was doing

• 36:51Speaker 03

  because it was nothing, you know, that you've seen before. And you just had to have faith. I knew what he was up to. I, I, I adored him. I knew that, you know, I, I would, I start, if you want to know how I came to, into his realm, I, it's, it's kind of a funny story. Do you have time for the?

• 37:10Speaker 06

  Please, I'm, I'm here all day.

• 37:12Speaker 03

  All right. I got a, I got a, an invitation. One day I got a call to go to this hotel on Franklin Avenue in Hollywood to audition for a haberdashery, for a, a pair of trousers, to, to model a pair of trousers and it would be a, a still photography. I was much younger and thinner at that time. And so I came to this hotel and I modeled the trousers for these people and they said, thank you very much. And, and I left the hotel and I, as I got out on the sidewalk, I was walking down, you know, just the street and a lady

• 37:54Speaker 03

  at a window and from the hotel on the first floor is pounding on the window, said, you know, telling me to come back in. It was Diane Dürfnir. She was a casting director for Terrence Malick. I didn't know who Terrence Malick was. I'd, I'd heard of Diane Dürfnir, so I knew she was, she had a great reputation for being a casting director. So she called me back in and, and she said, look, I'm casting this film and the director is out of town and I mentioned you. To him, but he says, you're too old and you're just not right for the part. But I think you are, and I'd like to do a little audition here on tape. She had a little camera, you know, like we used to have in the old days, little black and white uh, video camera.

• 38:35Speaker 03

  And uh, would you do that now? I'll show it to him when he gets back. I said, sure. Why not? So she gave me a couple of sides, you know, a couple of scenes. I went out on the street and I walked up and down as I'm reading him. I thought, this looks this seemed very familiar and I was right. I came back in and I said, would this, in any uh, is this related to Charlie Starkweather? Right. Killer out in the Well, she says it is, but he's not doing the real story. But yeah, it's sort of, you, you could say that it's kind of based on that story. Oh, I said, I remember that very well. And so I did this little audition with just, you know, she's behind the camera and I'm reading the lines. But it's just like we're doing here. It's just this. And you can't move the camera or yourself. You gotta stay there because you're only lit for that. Right.

• 39:20Speaker 03

  And I, and I forgot all about it. And weeks later, I got a call from Terrence Malick. Oh, he says, could you come in and, uh, and I'd like to meet with you. And I said, okay, fine. He, he, he was living up in Hollywood Hills at the time and he had a huge dog named Obibilink and he's the dog that appears in the film that

• 39:43Speaker 03

  that gets shot. Oh, no. That's the dog. He didn't get shot. No, no. But I was terrified of him. I'm terrified of all dogs that I don't know. And so I was reluctant to come in the house when I saw the dog. I mean, he was standing up. He was still here. Uh, but he was lovely. For any rate, uh, Terrence was very shy and very um, lovely man. And I was struck by him. I thought, I've never met a filmmaker like this before. I mean, he's really, you know, he's really different and, and, and, and really intelligent and, and sincere and and very funny and, and disarming, you know? And a young guy, uh, it was the first time I'd worked with a director that was younger than me.

• 40:27Speaker 03

  I was thirty two at the time. At any rate, uh, I would come back every couple of Through the spring of that year, nineteen seventy-two, and I would do auditions and and I met this little redhead girl from Texas. The script called for a little teenage girl from Texas who was red-haired, and she knew how to twirl a baton. And this, this is basic, was from Texas, red-haired, knew how to twirl a baton, and she happened to be a brilliant actress. And so she and I started doing scenes from the movie, the script, but I'd never read the full script yet. And, and finally, um, one day Terry called me, I was doing a show at Paramount, and

• 41:09Speaker 03

  he said, could you come by on your way home and pick up the script? And I said, okay, fine. So I was just, okay, fine, didn't, no big deal. I went up to the house, he gave me the script, and he said, uh, I want you to do this part. And I said, oh, okay, fine. And I didn't realize what he'd said or what I was being offered until the next morning, when I got up at about four thirty-five in the morning, and I was driving back to Paramount, because I had some more work to do on this series, my guest spot on this series. And I remember, I was listening to Bob Dylan's record that had the, one of my favorites of

• 41:54Speaker 03

  his songs that no one knows, the Desolation Row. And, and the sun was coming up, and I was going along PCH, and, and I realized that I had just been offered the best role of my life. And didn't know if it would make any difference career-wise, but I knew it would make a tremendous difference to me, because I'd never had the opportunity to show until then what I, what I knew I was capable of. And I pull, I had a little, uh, small orange car, I don't know, I think it was a Mazda, and I pulled off the side of the road, and I remember I just broke down in tears and

• 42:38Speaker 03

  started weeping with, with joy and relief that finally I was going to get a chance to do something that. Was relevant in my life and in cinema and it was Terence Malick.

• 42:52Speaker 06

  American.

• 42:53Speaker 03

  And I never had the slightest doubt.

• 42:57Speaker 03

  Working with him, I adored him and and he was so funny and disarming. I remember he would be directing a scene, you know, just normal. Oh, Martin, you know, it's kind of the way he talks. Oh, Martin, you go over here and so you do this and you do that. And then he'd look at his hands, say, oh, yeah, he had written notes on his hands. He he didn't have any paper. Handy. He'd always write notes on his hands, on his arms everywhere. And then he'd give you the note. So when I want you to do this, so maybe you could do that. And Martin, you know, okay, now do just throw that away. And it's just.

• 43:28Speaker 06

  No one liked him. Amazing.

• 43:30Speaker 03

  We became great friends and I'm sorry, I'm such a windbag now, but that was a. That was one of the most important moments in my life was meeting that man, doing that film at that time. And um. We were very close friends and then um. He had some trouble in his personal life. He went through a divorce. He moved overseas. He was living in Paris. I didn't know it at the time. And I was going here and there and uh. We got back together. I I had a break from Apocalypse and he he actually was in a scene in Apocalypse. That was cut very early on.

• 44:13Speaker 03

  And so I I was doing the film and he was having trouble. Um. Uh, making Days of Heaven.

• 44:23Speaker 06

  Right.

• 44:23Speaker 03

  Another brilliant film and uh he wanted a certain actor, couldn't get him and he had to, you know. He had to be satisfied with another actor who turned out to be just brilliant.

• 44:36Speaker 06

  Richard Gere, yeah, yeah, sure.

• 44:38Speaker 03

  Richard Gere and um. And so his big concern was would he be able to begin the film? And uh and in and include the fire because you can only burn up a certain amount of acreage and he and he so he had to get permission for that and had to be controlled. And he and he and so he was in a place called Moose Jaw in um. In Canada. And, uh, and so he was getting ready to do it, to do that. He was off to that and I was off to the Philippines. And I didn't see him again for a couple of years. I was in Paris in nineteen eighty-one doing a film and I, I'd just returned from India.

• 45:20Speaker 03

  And I was going through a very, uh, kind of tumultuous time. And, and I knew that I was approaching a very, uh, um, you know, uh, important, uh, level. I, I was kind of a do or die. I was on the verge of something. I wasn't quite sure what. But I knew I had to make a decision. And, uh, and I'm walking down the street. I was, I was staying in a little hotel on the, on the, uh, the West Bank. Is that right? No, not in Paris. It's, I can't remember which, but any rate it's the,

• 45:59Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 46:01Speaker 03

  We're, we're all, you know, where all the best pastries are in the old age.

• 46:06Speaker 06

  Okay.

• 46:10Speaker 03

  Uh, and I'm walking on the rue Jacob. And I see this guy coming towards me and he's looking at me and he's saying, is that you, Martin? And I'm saying, is that you, Terry? Yeah. And we reacquainted and I spent practically every waking hour. Uh, when I wasn't on the set with Terry, he taught me Paris on foot, on the underground. Uh, uh, and, and, and the city became very important to me as he did. And he led me, he became, um, and I've said this and it embarrasses him. And that, but I'll have to say it again because it's true. He became a spiritual director for me.

• 46:51Speaker 03

  And he knew that I was going through something that I couldn't quite articulate. But I knew that it had to do with, uh, my spirituality.

• 46:59Speaker 06

  Right.

• 47:00Speaker 03

  Or my lack thereof. And, and so he nourished me and he kept giving me books to read. And he took me to this place and that place. And we would listen to music and, and just walk the city and. And then one day, we were at the Shakespeare and Company bookstore by the Sein, very famous bookstore, and we went there a lot. And one particular day, he was going along, and he pulls down a book. He says, "Here, Martin, I think that this will speak to where you are now." I said, "Okay, fine." It was Doshievsky's The Brothers Koromotzov. And I read it. It was a thousand pages, and I couldn't put it down on the set at night. It took me a week or so to read it, to finish it. And it struck such a deep chord in me.

• 47:45Speaker 03

  It brought to the surface what I needed to do, and that was to rejoin my faith, my childhood faith, and the Catholicism. And I wanted to come back, but I didn't want to come back to piety or fear, anxiety of being condemned and all. But I wanted to come back to the social justice of the Church of Pope John the Twenty-Third, of Mother Teresa, and Dan Berigan, and peace activism, and social justice work. And so, that's what I did. I came back in Paris in 1981, May 1.

• 48:25Josh Horowitz?

  And essentially defined your philosophy the last forty-five years of your life, say, to say, right?

• 48:31Speaker 03

  I didn't realize how much I missed the community. As I say, we need community. You know, it's the only way we can really function, that we begin to know ourselves is in community. Can't do much on your own, you know. But in community, you can find yourself and become your true self. And yeah, that's what I tried to do. And so, it meant the world to me. And I got Terry to thank for leading me back through that door and accepting that beautiful grace, because it is a great form of grace, and I cherish it, yeah.

• 49:03Josh Horowitz?

  I can't think of perhaps a more different experience than the Terry Malick Badlands experience than Apocalypse Now, which is maybe the most storied production of any film. I mean, there are, obviously, Hearts of Darkness was made, books have been written. We've heard a lot of stories about the making of it. We know what you went through, the heart attack and true breakdown. I mean, what's your relationship?

• 49:27Josh Horowitz?

  To seeing some of that footage, I mean, like, the footage of you, that iconic scene in the beginning of the film, the mirror, breaking the glass, I mean, you're going through it, you are breaking the mirror, you're, we're seeing a man break down, I'm seeing you at your, almost fall apart. What's it like for you to look back at that and actually see that?

• 49:48Speaker 03

  It's not very comforting. I remember, um, gosh, um,

• 49:56Speaker 03

  I remember, um, George Hickenlooper was the director of the documentary of, um, of Filmmaker's Apocalypse.

• 50:06Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 50:06Speaker 03

  And, uh, he asked me for an interview, all the lads, uh, were interviewed, but we had not seen the film yet, and we had not seen the documentary that he was making. Uh, he just told us he would, he would appreciate us doing an interview and so forth. I didn't realize how powerful that documentary was. But it told a true story, and that particular day was my thirty uh, sixth birthday, and I was wildly out of control with alcohol and going through a very deep, uh, emotional catharsis, and I, and I was out of control.

• 50:44Speaker 03

  And I remember drinking all day, and, uh, it was night when we got to that scene. And the, the scene was no actual scene, there wasn't any dialogue for that, he'd rewritten the whole opening, you know? And so we were improvising a lot of that, and, you know, and so, uh, Francis really wanted to call it a wrap, and I said, well, let's keep going here, we might, something might happen. It sure as hell-

• 51:12Josh Horowitz?

  Something happened.

• 51:13Speaker 03

  Yeah. I, I was always, um, embarrassed by it, of course. I never saw it until it was in the film, I couldn't, he wanted me to see it when, when the Russians came back from Rome a few weeks later. And I said, no, no, I, I don't have any. He said, well, it may be in the film. I said, well, that's your choice, I, I can't, I couldn't bear to watch it, no. I never wanted to watch it, I knew- I kinda had a pretty good idea of uh of what I'd done, you know, I wasn't very proud of it.

• 51:45Josh Horowitz?

  It's crazy, it's crazy to think you were just thirty six then and like you, I mean, your life could have, could have ended. I mean, like, we, we, I mean, it truly, you were on the brink and to see all the life that was to come after. Um, what a gift and what, I mean, yeah, just, I don't know, it's just mind boggling.

• 52:01Speaker 03

  Um, but I'll tell you this, when I saw it, I, George Hickenlooper, God rest him, uh, sent me a copy of that, uh, of that, of a documentary before it was released. Hearts of Darkness, and he said, I want you to look at this and tell me if there's anything you want cut and I'll be glad to consider it. I said, okay, so I watched it with a friend who did not know me then, only knew me now, and said, oh, my God. Uh, how are you going to live with this? And I said, that's who I was, that's not who I am. And so I had to let it go. But I remember when the film premiered, uh, in the summer of nineteen seventy nine at Cannes. That scene was not in the, in the film.

• 52:40Josh Horowitz?

  Oh, really? Oh.

• 52:41Speaker 03

  It was not in the film, but that it played and he won the, uh, Palme d'Or, at least he, uh, he, he, he in another film, uh,

• 52:49Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 52:49Speaker 03

  were tied for the Palme d'Or, uh, but no, that film was not in it. He put it back in when the film opened in the States and I didn't know it. And I, I, I made sure that when the film opened, I wasn't available for publicity or anything. I, you know, I was very, very intimidated by it, very shy about it. And, uh, and so I kinda hid away. I got a job and I made sure I was as far away as possible. I was on board the USS Nimitz, uh, doing a film called The Final Countdown. And for all intents and purposes, it was that for me.

• 53:25Josh Horowitz?

  Oh, my God.

• 53:25Speaker 03

  So I was at sea for a little while. I was aboard that, the aircraft carrier at, uh, while it was in port at Norfolk. Uh, for a couple of months and then we went out to sea to do some filming and they brought all the planes on board and that was an experience. So we were at sea for a couple of weeks at any rate. Uh, while I was away, the film opened and, and, uh, I was just as happy not to be around. But then, a few weeks later, they asked me to do some publicity over in New York. When I do it, and I said, "Yeah, okay." Remember, the film, when it opened, it did not get very good reviews. It got okay reviews, but there was such an anticipation. And people were sort of, "Oh, the ending this and that was that."

• 54:08Speaker 03

  But, you know, Vietnam veterans started seeing the film and saying, "If you want to know what it was like, that's the closest film that's ever gotten it." And they really pumped up the film with their, you know, experiences. And so, they're the ones that made it happen. And I remember going to see the film in New York. It was playing at that big theater where it opened. It'd been there, sold out for six or eight weeks, I don't remember. But, and I didn't want to see it alone, so I called my friend John Crane, a kid I grew up with, who was my best man. And we were in high school together. And, yeah, and so, he took me to see it.

• 54:52Speaker 03

  And I remember sitting in the middle of the audience. Nobody knew, had recognized me, why should they? And when that scene came on, I was so... I didn't expect it, because I knew it was not in the film in Cannes. So I thought, "It won't be in the film now." And there it was. I thought, "Oh, Jesus," you know, and I sat through it. But the scene that got me, that I really broke down watching, was the attack on the village with Bobby Devaux. Yep. Brilliant performance, but that attack, it still gets me. You know, the ride of the Valkyries and coming in.

• 55:35Speaker 03

  And it's so brilliantly filmed and enacted. It's so real and devastating. And yet, it was played on some other level that you could only do in a movie. Yep. And Francis did it. And it was one of the great, still is considered one of the great... War movies, if you will.

• 55:59Speaker 06

  Movies, period, I would say, yeah.

• 56:02Speaker 03

  I've had an equal number of young men and women tell me, some saying that that film inspired them to go into the military, and an equal number that said, "That film kept me out."

• 56:14Speaker 06

  I can imagine, totally.

• 56:17Speaker 03

  However you want to see it, you know.

• 56:19Josh Horowitz?

  It's always been a treat also to see you collaborate with your children, whether being directed by Emilio or acting with Charlie. I mean, I think back, you, in Wall Street, you and Charlie, the stuff between you two and that, it feels like it's, you're acting, but there's also another level. You're going through something, there's a bit of your own, correct me if I'm wrong, I don't know what you guys were going through at the time.

• 56:43Speaker 06

  But there's.

• 56:44Speaker 03

  You got that, huh?

• 56:46Speaker 06

  Yeah, there's something there, and it speaks, it comes through the film.

• 56:50Speaker 03

  Yeah, you know, Charlie was responsible for my, for my doing the part. He pitched me in no uncertain terms to Oliver. And I, of course, I said I'd be delighted, and Oliver was gracious enough to give me the part, and I got to work with Charlie again.

• 57:10Speaker 03

  Yeah, it's a very special film.

• 57:12Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 57:13Speaker 03

  He's terrific in it, and it still holds up.

• 57:16Speaker 06

  Oh, yeah.

• 57:16Speaker 03

  It's still relevant, and they're all absolutely brilliant. And, yeah, and the scenes with Charlie are personal. As I always say, if art is not personal, it's impersonal. And who cares, you know, so, yeah.

• 57:31Speaker 03

  I was very proud of that, and had a, and I love playing any.

• 57:36Speaker 06

  A union leader, a.

• 57:37Speaker 03

  A union hero, yeah, I love that, that, yeah, that, that got me.

• 57:43Josh Horowitz?

  A couple more I want to hit, I know, I know we're taking up a lot of your time, but I, these stories are amazing, so if you'd like me a couple more. We haven't even talked West Wing, but is there, when you think of West Wing, it's that Aaron Sorkin, brilliant, brilliant dialogue. You have such meaty material there. Is there a speech, a line, that speaks to you to this day from West Wing?

• 58:04Speaker 06

  I know, it's a lot of material.

• 58:06Speaker 03

  But is there one in particular? Yeah, my very first line, "I am the Lord thy God, thou shalt not have false gods before me." It was my entrance. It's a good entrance. They were in there arguing about what is the first commandment, and I made my entrance. And with that line, I mean, when I, when I was offered um that uh uh show, it was for tops, maybe four or five episodes, the first season. That was it. And one of the, uh, one of the uh things I had to sign off on was that I would not play the president in anything else while the West Wing was on the air. What are the chances? But so I, you know, I read the pilot and I thought, oh, my God, this is absolutely brilliant. And I couldn't wait to get to it.

• 58:51Speaker 03

  I only had one scene. Well, you know, the closing scene, maybe two scenes, but that was it. And uh I loved doing it. And I thought, um, two things occurred to me. One, um, when they see the pilot, they're going to want to come back to me. I, I would hope to say, who works in that bit, that office? Because everybody knows what that office is. Who, who, who's in charge in that office? And that's what happened. So they came back to me and gave me an opportunity to be part of the, uh, of the whole cast. Because, you know, uh, originally it was only about the staff. There was no first lady, there was no first family.

• 59:35Speaker 03

  The president would appear every maybe fourth or fifth episode. Uh, you know, throughout the series. And so, uh, I was delighted. I had two requests. One was that he be Catholic. And the reason was because I wanted this president to uh make all his decisions, both public and private, political and non-political. But all of his actions would fall in a moral frame of reference. And the closest thing I could get to that was a practicing Catholic. And they said, absolutely sure. And that he had to be a Democrat was a foregone conclusion. However, I've said, you know, as I think I mentioned to you, if he had been a Republican. But Aaron Sorkin wrote him, I would have said, of course.

• 1:00:17Speaker 03

  And the other thing, I wanted the Notre Dame degree because since I was a boy, I love Notre Dame. And so many of my heroes came out of Notre Dame. And, and so I just wanted to celebrate that great institution. And they said, of course.

• 1:00:31Josh Horowitz?

  That's using your leverage, your stature for good to get those two requests in there.

• 1:00:35Speaker 03

  And that's, that's all I asked for.

• 1:00:36Josh Horowitz?

  Hey.

• 1:00:37Speaker 03

  When, when I started though, isn't it interesting? Because when I started, I would negotiate sometimes with Aaron on some of the dialogue. Can you imagine how stupid I was? And I would say, well, you know, Aaron here in this thing, I don't really care. I would never say it like that. And I would say, well, you know, you should, you know, I, I see it that way. But if you don't, oh, okay, fine. And we would negotiate and I would try to hew him down until I got it my way. Then I discovered, and soon enough, thank God, that when I did it my way, it was okay. It was Martin. When I did it Aaron's way, it was Bartlett. And that's what I came to. And I stayed there and I never argued with him again. Even though one, there were two incidents over the years.

• 1:01:19Speaker 03

  One, in the stage direction, he said, in the stage direction, he said Bartlett pounds his head on the desk. I said, no, there's no way I could possibly do that. And yet, when I was playing the scene, I couldn't wait to pound my head on the, on the desk. And the second one was when I saw MS in the script, I thought it was my initials. It was muscular dystrophy or what is the disease?

• 1:01:46Josh Horowitz?

  Sclerosis, yeah, yeah.

• 1:01:47Speaker 03

  Multiple sclerosis, yes. And so I didn't see that coming.

• 1:01:54Speaker 03

  They were trying to tell me something, I wasn't sure.

• 1:01:57Josh Horowitz?

  I'm somewhat surprised that, I mean, there's been rumblings over the last few years. I mean, I'm sure Sorkin, they've tried to convince to write some kind of follow up. On your end, has it come close? Have you heard something like, we're about to do something and it just didn't happen? No.

• 1:02:11Speaker 03

  No, Sorkin is like Dylan, you know, he never looks back.

• 1:02:15Josh Horowitz?

  Right.

• 1:02:16Speaker 03

  He's always, always going forward.

• 1:02:18Josh Horowitz?

  Fair enough.

• 1:02:19Speaker 03

  You know, that's his found, his work in the past, of course, is his brilliant foundation that allows him to launch and to go into new and more personal places. But, no. If he, if he, if he had thought about it, he never shared it with, with me or any of the lads that I know of, no. Because you can see reruns of it. They're relevant today, of course.

• 1:02:46Josh Horowitz?

  They mean something different today to us, don't they?

• 1:02:48Speaker 03

  Very much so, yeah. Yeah. So Aaron is like this, he's one of those geniuses, you know, he's like Terrence Malick, you know, they come along so rare and they make their presence known so profoundly. And we're not the same. They see through things. They, they don't reflect much. They absorb and they, and they see through and they take us with them. They don't wait around, you know. I remember when we were doing the first season of The West Wing, I thought, how is this show going to survive? We're so lucky to have this magnificent material, but how, how, how long can we possibly stay on the air and sell insurance and cars and,

• 1:03:33Speaker 03

  and, you know, products? Who knew, you know, a Democratic Catholic president, very liberal guy with this administration? Wow, you know, I think we could still be on the air if they, you know, if they wanted to go on. But it was Aaron Sorkin primarily, and there were some guys in that room, and specifically Lawrence O'Donnell.

• 1:03:57Josh Horowitz?

  Yep.

• 1:03:57Speaker 03

  Who brought all his experience from his work in the Senate. And so, you know, when anything about the Senate or the House or anything in the White House, it was coming from experience. And we had so many people from the administration, Bill Clinton's administration, that started us off, you know. And so many stories that went back to Eisenhower, that they got and found people to tell the stories, and then they fused them into Bartlett, you know. And one of them is one of my favorites, which was when the kid from Brooklyn during the Depression wrote a letter to President Roosevelt. And it didn't arrive at the White House until Jimmy Carter was president.

• 1:04:41Speaker 03

  And that's that story you see that that Charlie finds this letter. And this is young boy in in Brooklyn. And so we bring the father into the Oval Office to meet him. It's a very moving scene, but that actually happened from the Roosevelt era to Jimmy Carter. And so there were stories like that throughout the the the seven seasons that were based on real stories, real people and couched in West Wing dialogue and and and episodes, you know.

• 1:05:12Josh Horowitz?

  Can I bring up two more and then I'll let you go, sir?

• 1:05:14Speaker 03

  Yeah, for sure.

• 1:05:15Josh Horowitz?

  Um, they're two very different kind of things in different realms, but um, look, for comic book fans, you're you're Uncle Ben. That's very meaningful. That's that's about iconic. Did you realize how iconic Uncle Ben is to generations of young men and women?

• 1:05:31Speaker 03

  I didn't have a clue. I didn't have a clue. I'm not I I don't see many of the big so-called tent films. I didn't have a clue. I'd never seen Spider-Man. I never saw Superman. Forgive me. I saw Star Wars about six or eight years ago. I just, you know, they just, I I like drama. And, you know, actors, you know, doing play. I I think the fantasy thing that never kind of made a dent in me, you know. But uh, now I, gosh, a couple of years ago, I was giving the commencement speech at a university here in Los Angeles. And the guy that introduced me very graciously talked about all the things you're talking about,

• 1:06:14Speaker 03

  the West Wing and Badlands and and Apocalypse Now. And it wasn't until he got to Spider-Man that the the audience laughed and applauded. Uncle Ben, it's, oh, my God, I thought, what kind of universe are we living in?

• 1:06:31Josh Horowitz?

  It's the coin of the realm right now, and it means a lot to people. But, I mean, you know, that's, again, trading on the, you know, the series of these, these moral authority figures, it's, it's perfect for you, and you don't get the iconic line, but it's still, you don't get the "with great power comes great responsibility," but...

• 1:06:48Speaker 03

  Well, I said it. I said it. Yeah, I voiced it over after I've been...

• 1:06:53Josh Horowitz?

  Oh, you're right, and the voiceover towards the end.

• 1:06:54Speaker 03

  Yeah, oh, yeah, I got to voice it over. You didn't see me, but you, you heard me say it.

• 1:06:59Josh Horowitz?

  I wanted to see you again.

• 1:07:00Speaker 03

  You weren't paying attention.

• 1:07:02Josh Horowitz?

  I've lost my nerd cred, Martin. Oh, no. But you're right, I remember, of course, you're right, you're right.

• 1:07:07Speaker 03

  Sorry, Josh.

• 1:07:09Josh Horowitz?

  No, no, it's okay, it's okay. The last one I want to mention, Martin Scorsese, Departed, one of the most shocking deaths I've ever seen in a film. I mean, that's a gut punch, that, that character's, the way he shoots it, just it's, but, but what a treat to go up against Leo, Marty.

• 1:07:28Speaker 03

  I was disappointed that that kind of cut me out of a possible, uh, part two.

• 1:07:33Josh Horowitz?

  Well, they didn't make it for anybody, so no worries there. But, I mean, that must be, I mean, does that live up to the hype? I mean, Marty's a contemporary. I would think your paths crossed over the years.

• 1:07:43Speaker 03

  No, I, I, I met him years ago, but I never, I hope that all the directors that I've worked with, including Francis and, and Terrence Malick, will appreciate me when I say this. If I had a choice to work with another director that I've worked with before, without question, it would be Marty Scorsese. I adored him. And the chief reason was that I never worked with an act, with a, a director that loved actors, I mean, adored them, like Marty Scorsese. On the set, it was just so clear. You know, all the, he was working, you know, in that film particularly, you're talking about the Departed, uh, some of the

• 1:08:25Speaker 03

  biggest, uh, young stars in the world, and they adored him, and it was a mutual admiration society. And they were, they were all so kind and generous and giving, and the set was so fun, despite the, you know, the horrible, uh, uh, actions that were being done and the violence. Uh, but, you know, it's the first time I worked with Jack Nicholson, and, and he was such, he was so generous and sweet to all the players. And that, that was the thing about the... It was a, it was an acting film, you know what I mean? The whole film depended on performances.

• 1:09:07Speaker 03

  And so you had these young guys, all these young buffaloes with these big careers, were doing some of their best work. And then you had one of the great, uh, uh, cinema, you know, cinematic stars in the world, uh, for fifty years, Jack Nicholson. And, and, and, and he threw us all together. And he made this, uh, it's extraordinary film.

• 1:09:34Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 1:09:34Speaker 03

  And, but working, and another thing about, uh, Martin was that he was so easy to trap in a joke, you know? I remember one time we, I was standing behind him when a scene was going on with some of the lads I wasn't involved in. And he, and he said, okay, cut. And, you know, and, and he comes, he walks up to the front and says, oh, now that was, that was very good, uh, you, and that was very good. And I said, hey, why, why don't you tell them what you said back? You said they were all stunk. It was the worst scene you, no, no, no, I didn't say that. Don't be, and everyone is laughing because you can, that's the way, he was so vulnerable. You're so sweet, you could catch him, he would believe you. But, uh, yeah, that, that was a, a once in a lifetime experience.

• 1:10:18Speaker 03

  And, uh, he let me put Notre Dame in the film and make the sign of the cross as often as I could. And I endured him.

• 1:10:27Josh Horowitz?

  There's, there's a new.

• 1:10:28Speaker 03

  And just for the record, it's the only film he's won the Academy Award for best direction. So I'm very proud to have been. And, and despite all of the great films he's done with all of the great actors.

• 1:10:41Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 1:10:42Speaker 03

  I was lucky enough to be part, a small part.

• 1:10:44Josh Horowitz?

  He needed, he needed the Martin scene. Put him over the edge.

• 1:10:48Speaker 03

  Are you listening, Marty?

• 1:10:51Josh Horowitz?

  I like, I like that you're still looking for work. You're still looking for jobs. You're good, Martin. You're greedy. You've done everything. Um, no, I mean, look, I don't even know what to say. This is like, you know, we hit the greatest hits. You've done, you have over like 250 TV and film credits, credits. So we could have done this for 10 hours. I appreciate the hour you spent with me today because your work, first I'll say this, your work is very meaningful for, to me, but honestly, the way you have walked the walk and talked the talk in your life and how you carry yourself as somebody that stands up for the right causes. Um, it's, it's, it's, you know, you, you set the bar high for the rest of us. And, and, and I, I speak for many that say we admire you on, on so many levels. So, um, for that, you have my

• 1:11:33Josh Horowitz?

  thanks. And I'll remind folks again, Martin Sheen podcast, it's evergreen, as we've been reminded. You don't need to just tune in one week. It's there for you always. Wherever you get your podcasts. Um.

• 1:11:47Speaker 03

  Josh, thank you so much. And thank you for your support of our podcast and for, you know, being a part of this whole journey because you were a large part of it, as you know. And thanks to your, um, interview with Emilio, we, we were introduced to you and we're eternally grateful. And, uh, the only thing that's surprising about this interview is that I didn't realize how young you were. Honest to God. I thought with your experience and with your knowledge, he has to be an old guy. And I had no idea. No one told me you were as young as you are.

• 1:12:23Josh Horowitz?

  It's all the filters. It's, it's, don't worry. I'm an old man.

• 1:12:26Speaker 03

  Oh, I know about that. Look at this light went asunder here, right in the middle of one of my great stories. Why I ought to.

• 1:12:31Josh Horowitz?

  Um, thank you, sir. Hopefully we'll meet in person one of these days. I appreciate it.

• 1:12:36Speaker 03

  I would like that. Thank you so much. I look forward to it. This has been a pleasure.

• 1:12:40Josh Horowitz?

  Same here.

• 1:12:43Speaker 04

  And so ends another edition of Happy, Sad, Confused. Remember to review, rate, and subscribe to this show on iTunes or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm a big podcast person. I'm Daisy Ridley and I definitely wasn't prepared to do this by Josh.

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