The Science of Focus and Distraction & Unlocking Emotional Intelligence

Why do people cheat when they know it’s wrong? Whether it’s on a test or in a relationship, the answer may lie in your hormones. This episode begins with surprising research that reveals the powerful role biology plays in dishonest behavior.(https://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-3178947/What-makes-cheat-HORMONES-People-high-levels-certain-chemicals-likely-behave-badly.html) Distractions have become a way of life — endless scrolling, constant notifications, and interruptions that destroy our ability to concentrate. Yet the ability to focus is one of the most valuable skills you can have. My guest, Dr. Zelana Montminy, behavioral scientist and author of Finding Focus: Own Your Attention in an Age of Distraction (https://amzn.to/3VNtNOA), shares practical strategies to cut through the noise, reclaim your attention, and unlock the superpower of deep focus. Emotions are a double-edged sword — they can fuel your success or sabotage your best intentions. Learning to regulate them is the key. Marc Brackett, founding director of the Yale Center for Emotional Intelligence and professor at Yale’s Child Study Center, explains how to harness emotions in a way that benefits your work, relationships, and well-being. He’s the author of Dealing with Feeling: Use Your Emotions to Create the Life You Want (https://amzn.to/3VGJreH). And finally, here’s something truly strange: researchers have discovered that simply looking at a disgusting image can predict your political leanings with remarkable accuracy. In this closing segment, I reveal how it works. https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2014/10/141029124502.htm PLEASE SUPPORT OUR SPONSORS!!! INDEED: Get a $75 sponsored job credit to get your jobs more visibility at ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://Indeed.com/SOMETHING⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ right now! DELL: Huge savings on Dell AI PCs with Intel Core Ultra processors are here, and they are newly designed to help you do more, faster. Upgrade today by visiting⁠⁠ https://Dell.com/Deals⁠⁠ QUINCE: Keep it classic and cool this fall with long lasting staples from Quince! Go to ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://Quince.com/sysk⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ for free shipping on your order and 365 day returns! HERS: Whether you want to lose weight, grow thicker, fuller hair, or find relief for anxiety, Hers has you covered. Visit ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://forhers.com/something⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ to get a personalized, affordable plan that gets you! SHOPIFY: Shopify is the commerce platform for millions of businesses around the world! To start selling today, sign up for your $1 per month trial at⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ https://Shopify.com/sysk⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Mike Carruthers?

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• 0:42Mike Carruthers?

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• 1:23Mike Carruthers?

  Just go to indeed.com/podcast right now and support our show by saying you heard about Indeed on this podcast. Indeed.com/podcast. Terms and conditions apply. Need the right hire fast? Then this is a job for Indeed Sponsored Jobs. Today on Something You Should Know, why people cheat even though they know it's wrong. Then, how to kill distractions and improve your focus. And a lot of things are distracting you.

• 1:57Speaker 01

  Cluttered spaces all tax the brain's attentional system. So visual chaos equals cognitive chaos. And notifications be on phones, like smartwatches, Slack pings, email pop-ups. All of this spikes cortisol and fractures focus.

• 2:13Mike Carruthers?

  Also, a very weird difference between Republicans and Democrats that no one can explain, and proven ways to better regulate your emotions.

• 2:23Speaker 02

  There's a great strategy that's called mental time travel. In that moment, you take a deep breath and you ask yourself, is this really going to mean anything to me tomorrow, or the next day, or next month? And then if you can say no to that, then you let it go. Like, why are you wasting your time getting angry about this? This is ridiculous.

• 2:39Mike Carruthers?

  All this today, on Something You Should Know. Now here's something that might be worth a minute of your time. How would you like $1,000 to spend on shopping? Especially with the holidays coming. Well, the people behind Shopify have a shopping site called shop.com. And to celebrate the new shop.com, they're giving away $1 million in Shop Cash. But not to one person. A thousand people will each win $1,000 in Shop Cash. And shop.com is actually a really clever idea. It brings lots of different stores together in one place.

• 3:22Mike Carruthers?

  So instead of bouncing around from website to website, you can search across stores, find what you're looking for, and track your orders, all in one place. Clothes, electronics, gifts, things for the house, all kinds of stuff. And whether you win or not, it's worth knowing. But with a thousand chances to win $1,000, I'd certainly take a look. Enter to win the $1 million Shop Cash giveaway from now until November 1st. Just go to shop.com. There are so many ways to win. That's shop.com. Shopping designed around you. No purchase necessary. Restrictions apply. Official rules available at shop.com.

• 4:09Speaker 03

  Something You Should Know. Fascinating intel. The world's top experts. And practical advice you can use in your life today. Something You Should Know with Mike Carruthers.

• 4:22Mike Carruthers?

  So when people cheat on a test or in their relationship, usually they know it's wrong. So why do they do it? That's what we're going to start with today. Hi and welcome to this episode of Something You Should Know. We all know that cheating is wrong. But people do it anyway. So why is that? Well, it appears that hormones have a lot to do with it. Research from Harvard and the University of Texas suggests that higher levels of two hormones in our body, testosterone and cortisol, encourage cheating and other unethical behavior. The male hormone testosterone gives people the courage to cheat and the stress hormone

• 5:07Mike Carruthers?

  cortisol gives them a reason to cheat. Elevated testosterone decreases the fear of punishment while increasing sensitivity to reward. An elevated cortisol is linked to an uncomfortable state of chronic stress that can be extremely debilitating. And the study showed that cheating lowers levels of cortisol and reduces the emotional stress, suggesting that cheating is in itself a form of stress relief. That can lead to more cheating in the future. The takeaway message from the research is that appealing to someone's morality is not going to be an effective way to stop cheating.

• 5:49Mike Carruthers?

  Reducing cortisol levels can be effective in reducing cheating because it removes the motivation. But that requires lowering a person's stress levels through yoga, meditation, or exercise. And that is something you should know.

• 6:09Mike Carruthers?

  Focus. It's one of those words you hear all the time. Stay focused. Pay attention. You need more focus. But nobody ever really explains what focus actually is, or why it's so hard to hold on to. Is distraction the real enemy of focus? Or is there something deeper going on? Here to clear it up is Dr. Zilana Momini. She's a behavioral scientist and author of the book, Finding Focus: Own Your Attention in an Age of Distraction. Hi, Zilana. Welcome to Something You Should Know.

• 6:44Speaker 01

  Thank you so much for having me.

• 6:46Mike Carruthers?

  So that word focus gets tossed around a lot. Everybody needs to focus. You need to focus. You really, you know, you're not focused. You need to focus. But what is focus? What does that term mean to you?

• 6:59Speaker 01

  The general definition comes down to sort of mental concentration and clarity of vision. But for me, there's a bit of a deeper meaning that it's not just about discipline, but it's about deciding what matters most and shaping your life around that. So in this noisy, distracting world, focus, to me, is both sort of an act of survival and also an act of meaning-making. You know, it really is more about choosing what matters in a world that demands everything of you and then working your life and your schedule around that.

• 7:39Mike Carruthers?

  So do you think that people are very concerned about this? I mean, are people running around saying, "I just need more focus. I don't know where it went. I don't know how to find it." Is this a problem that people identify with? Or is this something you see in other people?

• 7:57Speaker 01

  That's a great question. I think that people don't understand where the pervasive burnout and anxiety comes from. I think that people are living in a perpetual state of distraction that keeps our nervous system on high alert. And I think everyone, most of us, in fact, feel more anxious and restless and less satisfied. And I think most of that comes from the fact that our attention is divided. And when our attention is divided, our connections weaken to our children, our partners, our colleagues, and ourselves. And I think that this is on a cultural scale. I think we are living in... An age of depletion and that it's not just an individual issue.

• 8:42Speaker 01

  But I think that so many people just don't understand where, you know, all of their discontent comes from. And so much of it comes from just this attention extraction economy.

• 8:55Mike Carruthers?

  Well, I love that, that we're living in a perpetual state of distraction. And I think most people know, I mean, and you can certainly see it. Anybody can see it when you see people on their phones all the time and they put the phone down and they go do something, but 30 seconds later, they're back on their phone. And I mean, that is a perpetual state of distraction. People know it, but it doesn't seem to help them stop it.

• 9:21Speaker 01

  Right, because our brain is going to go to what is easiest and what feels good consistently. And we have trained it as a culture to expect the quick dopamine hits and to expect the distraction and the task switching. So we have essentially trained ourselves to seek out distraction. We also are extremely uncomfortable with those hard conversations that we know we need to have with others and ourselves. And so we use our devices and our schedules. We stay busy as a pacifier to soothe us.

• 10:03Speaker 01

  So we don't have to confront what we actually really need to.

• 10:08Mike Carruthers?

  So here's an example that I find really interesting. If you go to a gym, as I go to a gym, you'll watch people and they'll do their exercises. They'll be on a machine and they'll do their bicep curls or whatever. And as soon as they're done with a set, they pick up their phone and they do whatever they do on their phone and they put it down and they do another set. And then they pick up their phone and they, and they can't not look at their phone between the sets that they do. Now, I don't know if that's a distraction because all they're doing is bicep curls. So it's not like the phone is really keeping them from doing what they do. But I do find it interesting that what, what, what do they think? And I'm guilty of this too.

• 10:48Mike Carruthers?

  I mean, I'm not, I'm not saying I'm so great, but what is it they think is going to appear on the phone that wasn't there 30 seconds ago?

• 10:58Speaker 01

  We've conditioned ourselves to grab our phones any moment of downtime. And it's almost like we're, you know, the phone spikes your nervous system. The moment you check anything, notifications, whatever it is, your brain shifts into this like threat and reward mode. So every ping or scroll or notification cues our system, our dopamine, right, our pleasure centers surge. And, and actually what they're doing at the gym and what we all do is undoing some of the recovery you've just earned by exercising because movement actually floods your body with, with the natural reset hormones that we need. So while exercise is clearing your mind, you're picking up your phone and you're flooding

• 11:40Speaker 01

  your mind again, filling those open spaces with other people's priorities before you even integrate your own sort of gains from, from the exercise and the stillness and the stretching and all of that. So it's a grab and scroll reflex. We're all in it. We have trained our brain that rest must be interrupted, which inevitably erodes our focus and our ability to feel restoration at all. So you're robbing yourself of the full return on the effort you just put in. But we all do it, right? And we're sort of, this is just how, how are culturally, how we're trained.

• 12:15Mike Carruthers?

  But it didn't used to be that way. I remember a time when, you know, you could go to the gym and just work out and you didn't have a phone or you didn't have the tendency to use the phone. That was a quiet time for you to do what you do. And, and, but I never see people, almost never see people just relaxing.

• 12:37Speaker 01

  Right. Right. And that's why I talk about the attention economy. These tech platforms are designed to compete for our attention because your time on a screen is their product. So they're pushing notifications, there's this reward system, every refresh, everything brings something exciting or not or new, but it keeps you hooked. It's the same mechanism that drives slot machines and we have not sort of integrated natural boundaries. Before, there used to be like these natural pauses in life where, you know, the TV show ended, you finished reading, you know, a book or a newspaper, you left the office. Now it never stops. Our feeds, our, our messaging systems, we have not just texting now, but we have DMs, we have Slack, we have WhatsApp, right?

• 13:22Speaker 01

  And that means there's no built in off switch. And we have also this cultural pressure to instantly respond, right? And so ignoring your phone is now socially risky, even if it's healthier. So what what we're seeing now is that we we need to retrain our habit loops. We need to start reinforcing these better habits. So knowing that the more you reach for your phone after workouts or meals or right before you go to bed or right when you wake up, you're strengthening these bad habits. And your brain learns that you can get relief from scrolling instead of putting in the effort.

• 14:04Speaker 01

  So breaking that loop requires intentional pauses because our default setting now as humans is distraction.

• 14:13Mike Carruthers?

  You know what I what I love doing sometimes is like going out and purposely leaving my phone at home. And it's a little anxiety provoking for a bit, but God, it feels good. It feels good to untether yourself because you don't have it. So there's nothing you can do. So just enjoy what you're doing.

• 14:36Speaker 01

  Yes, yes. And, you know, we don't talk about boredom enough as sort of an antidote to this this insanely frenetic pace that we live in. But it really is a reset button. And I know it's so uncomfortable. It's so uncomfortable to even go for a walk without having. I mean, I don't see people really walking without AirPods these days, and that's such an issue. But allowing yourself that that space, leaving your phone at home, even just for a few minutes without inputs, really resets these default mode networks that I'm talking about and and boost creativity, memory, problem solving, helps your brain actually clean itself. So letting yourself, you know, just drive without listening to music or a podcast, for example, and stare out the window

• 15:20Speaker 01

  can actually be the most productive thing you do all day. We don't do it enough.

• 15:25Mike Carruthers?

  Unless it's this podcast, then.

• 15:27Speaker 01

  Of course.

• 15:28Mike Carruthers?

  Yes, we have an exemption from the distraction police that it's okay. This one's okay.

• 15:34Speaker 01

  Podcasts are amazing and such an awesome tool, and I absolutely love them. But give yourself windows to listen. You know what I mean? I mean, just don't do things by default. Be more attuned to your choices. If you are going to listen to a podcast, which I highly, highly value, do so. But also make sure you're getting chunks of time where you're not flooding your brain with content and input.

• 15:58Mike Carruthers?

  Well, speaking of exemptions, do you cut out an exemption for music? Because it seems that music can be very helpful and soothing and distracting in a good way, where it doesn't require you to do anything. It's just enjoyment.

• 16:15Speaker 01

  I think tempo, definitely what we're seeing in the research that tempo influences alertness. Slower, more instrumental tracks are better for deep thinking and creative work and focus. And if you want to up, you know, your energy and motivation for more physical repetitive tasks, like data entry, for example, or cleaning or whatever, you know, like that, you up the tempo, right? But the more important thing to remember is that lyrics compete with language. So if you are doing any focused work that requires, you know, your brain and emails, reading, studying, whatever it is, if you are listening to something that involves words, it can interfere. The brain's language centers cannot multitask.

• 16:58Speaker 01

  So your comprehension and retention will inevitably drop. And I know you're not going to want to hear this, but for tasks requiring cognitive load or working memory or writing original work, solving tough problems, whatever it is, silence is, does outperform music.

• 17:16Mike Carruthers?

  We're talking about focus and distractions. And my guest is Zelana Momini. She's author of a book called Finding Focus: Own Your Attention in an Age of Distraction.

• 17:30Speaker 04

  Pink Pantheress here. Coach and Spotify are teaming up to bring music and style together, and they want you to be part of it. Grab your friends and head to the Tabby Tour, hitting cities around the country with live performances from special artists, exclusive experiences, and personalized products. And discover custom playlists on Spotify, booked just for you based on who you are and how you listen. Live your story with Coach. Learn more at coach.com.

• 17:58Speaker 05

  This episode is brought to you by State Farm. Football has a play for just about everything. You can go deep, keep it on the ground, or draw up something nobody sees coming. And whether you want to run a flea flicker or the tush push, you need a plan to fit your unique situation. That's why State Farm takes the time to get to know you, so they can help personalize coverage for your life and budget. Now that's a solid game plan. Like a good neighbor, State Farm is there.

• 18:26Mike Carruthers?

  So, Zilana, we talk about the phone because it's so apparent. You can see it everywhere and everybody's doing it. But what are some of the other things that are distracting people that are not the phone, but still a distraction?

• 18:42Speaker 01

  Desktop clutter. Anything cluttery in your home or your office actually is a huge distraction. Internal interruptions, things that are, you know, these sudden urges that we get to check emails, remembering that we need groceries, the mental load, mind wandering is a big culprit that people don't even realize is happening, and that can be incredibly distracting. So going back to messy desks and sort of your space, your space should really act as a vision board. So it should set the foundation of what you're trying to do in your life. And I call this visual noise. So if you have, you know, piles of laundry laying around,

• 19:25Speaker 01

  or you're stacking pages and pages on your office desk. Cluttered spaces all tax the brain's attentional system. So visual chaos equals cognitive chaos. That's just the way our brain functions. So that's really important to understand. And notifications beyond phones, like smartwatches, Slack pings, email pop-ups, fitness reminders, all of this spikes cortisol and fractures focus. So the way in which we control these hidden sort of focus killers is we close loops. So every, every open tab or pile on your desk or whatever it is, every notification is an open loop in your brain. And before you start deep work or want to focus,

• 20:09Speaker 01

  just do two minutes of closing loops, writing down three things you have to do or get back to, or clear your visual fields, close extra tabs, put papers away. You know, just close those loops. And then, you know, I really believe in giving yourself focus blocks. So you can't, we can't always be focused, right? So we have to set task containers. We give ourselves focused blocks with clear breaks so that your brain can handle intensity during those blocks if we know that, that rest is coming or, or a regroup. But that regroup cannot include more content and more scrolling because that also taxes your brain, so you're not actually refreshing it.

• 20:53Mike Carruthers?

  You know what? I, I love what you said about that. There is this sense that you have to be available in case something important happens. It's up to you to be reachable. But as you just pointed out, if it's really urgent, if someone's dying, if some, people will find you. I mean, I was just thinking like, you know, I turn off stuff when I'm doing interviews and nobody can, nobody can interrupt this. It's impossible for anyone to interrupt this.

• 21:24Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 21:24Mike Carruthers?

  But, but if something happened, if, if my wife had to get a hold of me because she was, you know, God forbid, in a car accident or something.

• 21:34Mike Carruthers?

  Well, she'd probably call my son, who's two rooms away from me, and he would walk in and say, "There would be a way to find me if it really, really is important." And I think that's true for everybody.

• 21:46Speaker 01

  It really is, and we have completely forgotten that. And not only that, but others who are in our lives don't want to have to do the extra steps it takes to get a hold of, so, you know what I mean? To get a hold of us being perpetually reachable. We're just in a state of constant elevated cortisol levels, which reduces our working memory, makes us less creative and efficient. And the pressure to always be available makes us worse at the very work we're actually trying to do and the connections we're trying to cultivate with each other. So we have to trust the system. When we silence our phones and our notifications, if it is urgent, they will find you. And if it's not, it can wait.

• 22:31Mike Carruthers?

  And even if it is urgent, few things are so urgent that it can't wait till you turn your notifications back on. I mean, most things aren't as urgent as people think they are.

• 22:44Speaker 01

  A hundred percent. We've, like I said, we've been conditioned to believe we must reply instantly to everything. And that sense of obligation completely hijacks our nervous system and keeps us in this low-grade sort of fight or flight. And that honestly is why, even after all the hacks we're doing and all the wellness tricks and all the connections we have on the surface, we are all really tired and exhausted and overwhelmed.

• 23:12Mike Carruthers?

  Well, I like what you said about, you know, when, when somebody has to get a hold of me or somebody has to get a hold of you, they'll send a text and then they'll say, "I texted her and she didn't get back to me." And that was the extent of trying to get a hold of you.

• 23:28Speaker 01

  Right.

• 23:29Mike Carruthers?

  Well, that ain't much of an effort. I mean, that's really, there's a lot of other ways to probably get a hold of you if it really, really mattered. But one text and it's like, "Well, she's just not available."

• 23:39Speaker 01

  Well, people aren't willing to do the work.

• 23:42Mike Carruthers?

  I want to go back to something you said earlier and help me untangle this because you had said like you're working and you're focused and all of a sudden you'd think, oh, I better go check the grocery list and what we need to get at the store. And I do that sometimes, but sometimes I think what I'm doing is I'm taking a break. I'm taking a break and I'm going to go do that for a few minutes and then I'll come back to this. But it could also be just a way of distracting myself and I don't know which one it is. Probably it could wait, but, but what about that? When is a distraction a break, not a distraction?

• 24:19Speaker 01

  So that is an interruption. It's not restorative. Switching to your list internally or externally taxes the brain in the same way as checking email does. It pulls you out of whatever you're doing and then it takes up to, the research shows about 23 minutes to refocus on whatever else you were doing. That's why multitasking just never works, even though we think we're all really good at it. A real break is something that resets attention. A walk, a stretch, a sip of water, even honestly just looking away from, staring out the window. Internal task switching is not rest. So instead, when a thought like that pops up or an interruption, you can externalize it by keeping a notepad nearby. When the grocery list thought pops up, jot it down. Tells your brain it's safe

• 25:04Speaker 01

  to let it go. You know you'll get back to it. Return quickly to what you were doing. Do not follow the thread, like scrolling Instacart, meal planning, et cetera. Capture it, write it down, then jump back into whatever you were doing.

• 25:18Mike Carruthers?

  So here's the thing though. I'm listening to you and I've never heard anybody explain this as well as you do. I mean, this is, it's very compelling to hear you talk, yet 99.9% of people who are hearing this and probably agree that you're very well spoken, that you make a lot of sense, you really, I really should do what she's saying, will never do it because the push, the pressure to keep your phone in front of your face and keep your tabs open and your notifications on, whether internal or external, is just too strong.

• 25:54Speaker 01

  That's true. I want you to regain your power over yourself and your life. We have totally given it away.

• 26:05Speaker 01

  And so focus is an act of essentially rebellion. It's like an act of resistance to say, you know what? I'm not going to do this anymore.

• 26:15Mike Carruthers?

  Well, I appreciate your perspective on this because I think we're all stuck on that hamster wheel of distraction and it's good to know there are some things we can do to, you know, to step off and regain control. I've been speaking with Zelana Mominy. She is a behavioral scientist and author of the book Finding Focus: Own Your Attention in an Age of Distraction. And there's a link to that book in the show notes.

• 26:43Speaker 04

  Pink Pantheress here. Coach and Spotify are teaming up to bring music and style together and they want you to be part of it. Grab your friends and head to the Tabby Tour, hitting cities around the country with live performances from special artists, exclusive experiences and personalized products. And discover custom playlists on Spotify, booked just for you, based on who you are and how you listen. Live your story with Coach. Learn more at coach.com.

• 27:11Speaker 05

  This episode is brought to you by State Farm. Football has a play for just about everything. You can go deep, keep it on the ground, or draw up something nobody sees coming. And whether you want to run a flea flicker or the tush push, you need a plan to fit your unique situation. That's why State Farm takes the time to get to know you so they can help personalize coverage for your life and budget. Now that's a solid game plan. Like a good neighbor, State Farm is there.

• 27:42Mike Carruthers?

  Emotions. They can be our greatest strength or our biggest obstacle. We're constantly told to express your emotions, control your emotions, be smarter about them, use your emotional intelligence. But let's be honest, most of us are still fumbling in the dark when it comes to really understanding our feelings and using them to our advantage.

• 28:07Mike Carruthers?

  Fortunately, my guest today has devoted his career to this very problem. Mark Brackett is the founding director of the Yale Center for Emotional Intelligence and a professor at Yale's Child Study Center. His insights have been featured everywhere, from The New York Times to Good Morning America and The Today Show. And he's author of a book called "Dealing with Feeling: Use Your Emotions to Create the Life You Want." Hi, Mark, great to have you.

• 28:35Speaker 02

  Thank you for having me, Mike.

• 28:37Mike Carruthers?

  So when I hear the words emotion or feelings, I think about things like anger, fear, jealousy, disgust, you know, the normal things you think about when you think of the word emotions. Is that what you mean when you're talking about emotions?

• 28:55Speaker 02

  What I mean about emotions is the full gamut of human feelings and emotions and moods. So, you know, we have tools to help people become more emotionally self-aware. For example, we have an app called How We Feel that has 144 emotions built into it. So I think most people simplify it. Happy, sad, anger, fear, surprise, disgust. Whereas, you know, they're gradations. You can be peeved, angry, or enraged. You can be down, disappointed, devastated, hopeless, or full of despair. Just like you can be pleased, happy, or elated or ecstatic.

• 29:30Mike Carruthers?

  But my sense is, or I think for a lot of people, the sense is that those things happen to you, that situations determine which emotions pop up in that circumstance, that you don't have a whole lot of control over it. When, you know, when somebody hits your car, you get emotional, and there you are. I mean, that's just how it works. And people get different emotions when that happens.

• 29:57Speaker 02

  Well, you made a good point there. People get different emotions. So it's not what happened. It's how you appraise what happened. I always give an example. Let's say you and I and another friend are on a roller coaster ride. And we're at the top of, you know, the roller coaster. And you're thinking, oh, my God, I'm gonna die. And I'm thinking, this is freaking boring. And the other person is saying, this is the best time of my life. We're all three sitting on a roller coaster, but all three of us are experiencing different emotions. So it's not the roller coaster. It's our appraisal of what that roller coaster means to us.

• 30:35Mike Carruthers?

  But because everybody in that situation is feeling different emotions, it seems like it's a difficult topic to generalize about because everybody's different.

• 30:45Speaker 02

  Well, everybody's different, but we need a common language so that we are clear about what the heck we're talking about. So if I were to say, Mike, what's the psychological difference between disappointment and anger? So disappointment is about an unmet expectation. Everything is legit. I thought it was gonna work out the way I intended it to, and it didn't. Okay, I am disappointed. Anger is about perceived injustice. Like what you said was not cool. Like, how could you? That was, that was unfair. Does that help clarify?

• 31:21Mike Carruthers?

  Yeah, no, those are perfect definitions.

• 31:24Speaker 02

  So if we can define disappointment as an unmet expectation and anger as a perceived injustice, then we can communicate clearly with each other. A parent can understand their child's experience better. Two partners in a relationship can understand each other better. And that's the goal of this work.

• 31:45Mike Carruthers?

  Well, that's really interesting because I I've never thought of it that way. And and and I don't think anybody does. And when you think about when your kid's upset. You don't think that way, but that makes it, but that certainly makes a lot of sense to think that way.

• 32:01Speaker 02

  And upset is a terrible word, just so you know, because it means nothing. Right? I'm upset. What does that mean? You're frustrated? Are you angry? Are you disappointed? Like, who knows? And so the more granular we can help people get about how they feel, the better able we're gonna support them.

• 32:18Mike Carruthers?

  Well, everybody, I certainly have experienced this, that you can be angry or upset, or however you define it, and, and realize that, as you were talking about before, you know, the next morning, you're not so angry anymore, and that had you blown up at the time, it could have caused a much bigger problem. And by, by thinking about it a little bit and letting some time pass, you know, you put it in a perspective that's like, you know, it just wasn't that big a deal.

• 32:53Speaker 02

  Well, now you're getting into emotion regulation, which is, you know, what I've been writing about these days. And so sometimes, I don't know about you, but like, I'm, I grew up in a, in a family where everything was a ripoff. But my father was like, that's a ripoff. And I now, at 55, think everything is a ripoff. So if my family and I go shopping, I'm like, you gotta be kidding me. And so that's who I am. And then I have to pause and take a deep breath and say, Mark, is this really gonna like, make you bankrupt? Mark, is this really that important to have a fight over right now? Sometimes it's yes, and sometimes it's no.

• 33:33Speaker 02

  And so that's, that's the, the point of kind of pausing to check in with your feelings to decide, you know, is this a strong unpleasant feeling? You know, like you were saying that the next day you might feel less angry. Well, it all depends on what it was. If it was the stupid thing at the grocery store that you thought was too expensive, you know, Mark, let it go. You got bigger things to worry about in life. But if, you know, someone was really mean or cruel to you, and you like to go to that grocery store, but the cashier was a real jerk, you know, you might have to do some problem solving about it. You might want to call the manager and have a conversation.

• 34:10Mike Carruthers?

  Or you might just want to let it go.

• 34:12Speaker 02

  You might. It depends. It all depends on, you know, the importance these things are, the importance of these things for you. So, but think about it. How many of us have been in romantic relationships where we kind of let these things go and then they accumulate? And then we have resentment.

• 34:33Mike Carruthers?

  Yep, everybody's had that. But, but there's also more in line with the cashier at the store rather than a relationship for life, that it was important at the time and in a week from now, you're not even thinking, you don't even barely remember it. It's like it was so important then and you got very emotional and now it's like, oh yeah, I kind of remember that.

• 34:57Speaker 02

  Well, you're getting it though, is the regulation strategy. So in that moment, do you have the skill set to regulate your emotions? And what I mean by that is you know that there's a great strategy that's called mental time travel. And that in that moment, you take a deep breath and you ask yourself, Mark, is this really going to mean anything to me tomorrow or the next day or next month? And then if you can say no to that, then you let it go. If you're like, you know, sometimes it's really strong, right? And you say, you know what, I'm holding on to this one and I'm going for the jugular. We tend to regret that too. So the better we are, you know, in engaging kind of time travel to realize that the little things are just, just like, why are you wasting your time getting angry about this? This is ridiculous.

• 35:43Mike Carruthers?

  But in a relationship, it's very easy when things happen to say, oh, it's just, it's not worth it. Just let it go. And then we're back to the problem you just mentioned of it builds on top of each other. And then you get, then you get resentful.

• 35:57Speaker 02

  Correct. And that's why, you know, not every strategy, you can't use that mental time travel 55 times in one weekend with your partner. Then it's like, you know, exactly, you go crazy. And so at that moment, you gotta be like, all right, honey, this is not working out. We gotta talk about it. And that's also having courage because that's where I think, now that we're talking about romantic relationships where I think people struggle. It's like, oh my gosh, I'm afraid to tell my significant other how I'm really feeling about what they did because, oh, they're going to get upset and they're going to be mad at me or they're like, they're not going to handle it. And you know, that just makes the case for why we need a more emotionally intelligent society from my perspective.

• 36:42Mike Carruthers?

  Well, it seems that in an awful lot of cases, what you just said is the case. I'm not going to bring it up for fear of the reaction. They're going to get upset, it's going to turn into a fight, it's going to damage the relationship, and it's just not worth it.

• 37:01Speaker 02

  Exactly. And by the way, this is not just in romantic relationships. This happens in the workplace. I'm sure you've seen this.

• 37:09Mike Carruthers?

  Friendships.

• 37:10Speaker 02

  Friendships. Friendships everywhere. People are afraid to talk about their feelings, even when they know they have them. It's like, I'm not going to be able to handle their response. They're not going to be handled, they're not going to be able to handle what I tell them. And I mean, think about the conflict we have in our society right now. You can look at the data, the number one challenge that kindergarten teachers are facing is dysregulated kids. I mean, anxiety, depression, loneliness are at all time highs. And in my view, this is all because people haven't learned how to deal with their feelings.

• 37:50Mike Carruthers?

  So if I were to say to you, you know, I want to say something to this person, but I'm afraid of their reaction, your advice would be what?

• 38:01Speaker 02

  Well, A, you want to craft it in a way that is not going to activate them to retaliate, you know? And so that's the nuance of the training that we do, both in schools and in workplaces, when we teach people how to talk about feeling, how to manage emotions effectively, because it's all goal oriented. Like, if your goal is, I want to keep this relationship, I love this person, but I need to talk to them about the things that they're doing that are not working for our relationship, you've got to know how to do that in a way that, you know, moves things forward and doesn't keep things stuck.

• 38:37Mike Carruthers?

  So pick an example and tell me how that conversation would go.

• 38:43Speaker 02

  Okay. You know, Mike, I'm going to use you as an example, just as a joke. You know, when you were doing that interview with me and you kind of put that pressure on me and put that pressure on me, put that pressure on me, it just really caught me off guard and it made me a little bit uncomfortable. And I was trying to give you a little signal like to move on, but you didn't. And so the next time, like if you, if you see that little signal, just give me some space so I can figure out how to answer the questions. Is that okay?

• 39:14Mike Carruthers?

  Yeah, yeah. And but interestingly in there, you made a request. You, you, you had an option. You gave an option rather than just say how upset you were or what was bothering you. You said, and, and then let's do this.

• 39:30Speaker 02

  I expressed my need. And so my need was that, you know, I'm the type of guy, and by the way, I'm making this all up right now, but I'm the type of guy that gets overwhelmed by really fast questions. And I have a processing speed, you know, that needs space to like figure it out. And so, you know, when we're in meetings together, you know, with the team, when you put that heavy pressure on, it just freaks me out a little bit. And I know I have the answer, but I need a little more time than other people do. So if you don't mind, just, you know, maybe give me the question in advance, or say, you know, Mark, why don't you give me your response a little bit later? And I promise you, it's going to be the response you want to hear, but I just need a little bit more space.

• 40:13Mike Carruthers?

  Well, it'd be hard to argue with that.

• 40:16Speaker 02

  That's my opinion, too.

• 40:19Mike Carruthers?

  So do you ever have arguments? Do you ever, do you ever lose it?

• 40:22Speaker 02

  Of course, all the time. I mean, actually, it's really funny because I opened this new book of mine with a story about my mother in law, because here I was, the, you know, one of the quote unquote world's leaders in emotional intelligence, my mother in law moved in because of the pandemic, not because we invited her, but because she is from the country of Panama, came to visit us on March 5th of 2020, and wasn't able to go home because all flights to Panama were canceled for seven months. It was ridiculous. And there was one night, you know, she was, you know, it was getting messy in our house. And she looked at me, she goes, are you really the director of the Center for Emotional Intelligence?

• 41:04Speaker 02

  And I'm like, not tonight, lady, not tonight. And it was like a mess.

• 41:12Speaker 02

  And I say that because here I was like, I have all the knowledge, I've done all the research, I've written the articles and the books, but yet I was incapable of managing my anger and frustration.

• 41:24Mike Carruthers?

  Why?

• 41:25Speaker 02

  Because I think it was a combination of things. It was like, I'm not used to working from home, I'm not used to my mother-in-law staring at me every morning for breakfast, I'm not used to having to make extra meals and dealing with her stuff, and then it was just a lot of pressure. But the truth is, I am the freaking director of the Center for Emotional Intelligence, and the truth is, I do know strategies. And the other truth is, I needed to actually implement them better. And so, my point of telling you this story is that, you know, I went to bed that night, I was very upset with myself, I'm like, here's this poor eighty-one-year-old lady displaced for seven months out of her, you know, she don't want to be with you either, she wants to go home. But it was all about me, like, I'm upset and you're in my house, and it was kind of crazy.

• 42:10Speaker 02

  And as I walked down the stairs the next morning, I took a deep breath, and I'm like, Mark, how would the best version of you show up as a son-in-law this morning at breakfast? Like, how do you want to be seen? How do you want to be talked about? How do you want to be experienced by your mother-in-law? And it was like an epiphany for me, in terms of how selfish I had been, and how non-other-oriented I was, and caring about her feelings and her loneliness and her frustration. And as soon as I became curious about her, our entire relationship changed.

• 42:46Mike Carruthers?

  Is what you're talking about, this handling our emotions better, is this something that you can help other people do with their emotions? Or is this everybody's individual, you've got to work on your own, and everybody else has to work on their own?

• 43:03Speaker 02

  I always tell people, no one should ever worry alone. We are social creatures, and so, in the work that I do, we talk about emotion self-regulation, but then we also talk about emotion co-regulation.

• 43:19Speaker 02

  So I mean, to be honest with you, just the way we approach people, the facial expressions that we have, the vocal tone that we use, the energy that we exude is a form of healthy regulation. Let me ask you this. Is there anyone in your life that just being around them kind of makes you feel more at ease?

• 43:42Mike Carruthers?

  Sure. Yes, of course.

• 43:44Speaker 02

  And so they are, in essence, co-regulating your nervous system. Because have you ever worked with someone or lived with someone that when you're around them, you feel like you have to walk on eggshells and you need to be careful about what you say?

• 43:57Mike Carruthers?

  Absolutely. Yeah.

• 43:59Speaker 02

  Exactly. So that's a form of regulation, just surrounding yourself with people that puts you at ease as opposed to people who kind of make you all tense.

• 44:09Mike Carruthers?

  But if you're around somebody that's hard to deal with and you have to walk on eggshells, is there anything you can do to ease the tension or that's just their problem?

• 44:24Speaker 02

  Of course, there's things you can do. A, you can just be transparent about how you're feeling in a way that helps them see how what they're doing might be making you uncomfortable. Just like I did earlier with you in this conversation, you know, in that example. The same thing can apply to anyone. And I think even more so, this is helpful for, I had a friend, for example, this is a good example, going back to relationships. I had a good friend who went through a really horrific divorce. And, you know, the husband was a narcissist and, you know, really was unkind to her. And she called me one day

• 45:06Speaker 02

  because she was lonely. And she goes, Mark, I don't know, this loneliness is killing me. And I almost would rather be back, you know, with my ex-husband than be alone right now. And I knew from what I had seen in her relationship, that would be the worst decision ever. I couldn't tell her that. I'm like, are you kidding me? That's the most ridiculous thing I ever heard because that's not healthy co-regulation.

• 45:31Speaker 02

  But what I did do is I said, you know, can you remind me why you got the divorce? And she was like, in like a minute, like 10 things came out of her. I said, well, maybe you forgot about those things, you know, in that now that you've been, you know, away from it a little bit and, you know, and with your loneliness. But just take a moment and remember the reason why, you know, you left.

• 45:56Speaker 02

  And she's like, oh, my gosh, like I would never go back to him. That's the worst idea ever. Like, I really need to figure out how to, you know, fill my time better because when I'm lonely, I'm just sitting around ruminating. And I said, yeah, so let's figure out what to do with that time. But it's certainly from what you're telling me, not, you know, the answer is not going back. Do you see how like it's, it's not therapy? It's kind of being a good friend that helps people think critically and kind of a little bit of coaching.

• 46:25Mike Carruthers?

  You said something earlier I wanted to ask you about. You said that you grew up in a house where your father said everything's a ripoff. And so that's who you are. How did you let that become who you are? How does that work? Why? I mean, and here's what I guess I mean. I know people who said, you know, my father growing up was this way and that's why I'm that way. Or my father, I grew up when my father was this way. So I made it my life's work to be just the opposite.

• 46:57Speaker 02

  Yeah, I am working towards that. It's my life's work. So my point in saying that was that I grew up with a father who said everything was a ripoff. And that became kind of my narrative. I wasn't aware that was my narrative until I got, you know, triggered at the grocery store.

• 47:18Speaker 02

  And so then I realized, oh crap, I've become my father. And so that awareness now is an opportunity for me to say, do I want to be like my father? Um, the answer is no. Do I think some things are ridiculously expensive and I don't want to waste money on it? Yes. Do I want to communicate that every single time my partner went to buy something? No. So it's just, you know, it's awareness building. And I think that's, that's the first step in any of this is to be aware of what am I feeling? Why am I feeling that way? Is this feeling helpful or unhelpful right now? And if it's unhelpful, what can I do about it? You know, it's effortful. And I think that's the issue is that we haven't.

• 48:01Speaker 02

  The value proposition for society is not strong enough yet for people to take seriously how to build and maintain healthy relationships and the role of emotion regulation in them.

• 48:14Mike Carruthers?

  Well, since most of us don't really talk about this topic and don't talk about talking about our emotions very much, it's really helpful, I think, and interesting to get your insight into it. Mark Brackett has been my guest. He is the founding director of the Yale Center for Emotional Intelligence. And he's author of the book, Dealing with Feeling: Use Your Emotions to Create the Life You Want. And there's a link to his book in the show notes. Thank you so much, Mark.

• 48:42Speaker 02

  Mike, this is great. Thanks so much.

• 48:48Mike Carruthers?

  So this is really strange and inexplicable, but fascinating nonetheless. How your brain responds when you look at a photograph can accurately predict whether you are liberal or conservative. I know that sounds really strange, but here's what happened. Researchers took MRI brain images of people while they passively looked at a series of disgusting, pleasant, and neutral images. They also determined in advance whether people were politically liberal or conservative. And what they found in particular was that disgusting images and the mutilated body of an animal especially.

• 49:30Mike Carruthers?

  Generated brain responses that were highly predictive of a political orientation. In fact, a single disgusting image was sufficient to predict each subject's political orientation accurately. Now, it's not clear, no one really knows why this is. It's not clear from the study exactly how or why liberal versus conservative brains differ from each other in that way, but they do, and they do without exception. And that is something you should know. I'd love it if you would add your voice to the chorus of people who leave ratings and reviews about this podcast on whatever platform you listen on. There's usually a very easy way to do it.

• 50:15Mike Carruthers?

  A few words and a five-star rating would be appreciated when you have a moment. I'm Mike Carruthers. Thank you for listening today to Something You Should Know.

• 50:25Speaker 04

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• 50:53Speaker 05

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