305. The Obamas takedown Donald Trump

Has Michelle Obama given up on her own plea that "when they go low we go high"? How will male voters respond to the idea of the first US First Gentleman? Will RFK Jr drop out of the race to endorse Donald Trump? This week, Alastair Campbell joins Katty Kay and Anthony Scaramucci as they answer all these questions and more on The Rest Is Politics US. TRIP TOUR: To buy tickets for our October Tour, just head to www.therestispolitics.com Instagram: @RestPoliticsUS Twitter: @RestPoliticsUS Email: [email protected] Social Producer: Jess Kidson Assistant Producer: India Dunkley Producer: Fiona Douglas + Nicole Maslen Senior Producer: Dom Johnson Head of Content: Tom Whiter Exec Producers: Tony Pastor + Jack Davenport Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:04Rory Stewart?

  This episode is brought to you by NordVPN.

• 0:06Alastair Campbell?

  And I must thank NordVPN because on my Grand European Tour with Fiona, I was away from the Hawthorns for West Bromwich against Burnley, but I managed to watch it. There you go.

• 0:19Rory Stewart?

  I actually had a NordVPN thank you. I was in the new Starbucks here in Creef. And of course, the thing flashed up, saying this is an unsecured public network. And I was able to go to my VPN. It was a little reminder of something we often forget when we're in all those cafes and things, which is actually genuinely, people can do all kinds of weird cyber attacks and spying if you don't have a virtual private network when you're sitting in that Starbucks.

• 0:42Alastair Campbell?

  Well, I think, are you not really sort of proud of me that I managed to do this? Or should I say Fiona managed to do this?

• 0:49Rory Stewart?

  I'm incredibly proud of you. That's a tech transformation. So to get the best discount off your NordVPN plan, go to nordvpn.com/restorspolitics. That's nordvpn.com/restorspolitics. And the link is in the episode description.

• 1:06Speaker 02

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• 2:07Katty Kay?

  Hello and welcome to The Rest Is Politics US with me, Katty Kay.

• 2:11Anthony Scaramucci?

  And I'm Anthony Scaramucci.

• 2:13Katty Kay?

  And we are incredibly honoured to have with us here in Chicago, the esteemed, the one and only, the irreplaceable Alastair Campbell.

• 2:23Alastair Campbell?

  I felt I was dripping with irony.

• 2:25Katty Kay?

  We've been chastised already, Anthony, for not giving enough love to The Rest Is Politics UK on our podcast.

• 2:32Anthony Scaramucci?

  I thought it was justified.

• 2:33Katty Kay?

  And I think I said we were going to fall on our sword, it was going to right through our sternum, blood on the floor, and so I thought I would make up for it with a great build up.

• 2:40Alastair Campbell?

  Thank you very much.

• 2:41Anthony Scaramucci?

  Because I am a congenital conflict of order, I'm just so glad you're in his presence and not me.

• 2:47Katty Kay?

  Me too.

• 2:48Anthony Scaramucci?

  Because I would have not, I would have been able to have handled it.

• 2:51Katty Kay?

  I hate people being cross with me, it goes back to my school days.

• 2:54Alastair Campbell?

  No, it's not, I was just making, I was just making this observation.

• 2:58Katty Kay?

  A brilliant observation.

• 2:59Alastair Campbell?

  There's barely an episode of The Rest Is Politics, the original version, that doesn't sing the praises of the mooch and Katty Kay.

• 3:08Anthony Scaramucci?

  That's very sweet of you. And so we have to make that adjustment immediately, Catty. Yeah, well, I'm going to make the adjustment.

• 3:16Katty Kay?

  We are, we are, we are starting henceful.

• 3:19Anthony Scaramucci?

  You are worse than the Catholic nuns that used to hit me with the pointer, Alistair. You are right and I am wrong, how's that?

• 3:26Alastair Campbell?

  That's good. If only Donald Trump would say the same thing.

• 3:29Katty Kay?

  What do you say, nostracupa? Is that what it is?

• 3:31Anthony Scaramucci?

  He's never apologised to anybody, God forbid.

• 3:34Katty Kay?

  Okay, let's move on, guys. Alistair and I were both at the convention again last night, Anthony, this time listening to the speeches from, there was Doug Emhoff, Kamala Harris's husband, and of course, the rock stars of the Democratic Party, Michelle and Barack Obama. So I want to talk about the big moments of the night, and then we're also going to get into how the Republicans might respond to this big Democratic love fest here in Chicago. After the break, we will also discuss the news that RFK, who is running as an independent, may be considering dropping out of the race to support Donald Trump, and we have a couple of interviews from the floor of the convention centre. So let's start with Doug, who has been coming. Kamala Harris's husband for 10 years this week. It is their wedding anniversary on Thursday.

• 4:17Katty Kay?

  She is also the stepmother to his two children, Cole and Ella. And there was a very touching video that Cole, I thought Alastair did about his dad, kind of making fun of it and his dad jokes. And I thought that was, I actually thought that Doug Emhoff's speech might be one of the most useful speeches to Kamala Harris of the whole of this convention.

• 4:37Alastair Campbell?

  I don't know him at all, but I was, what I've seen of him wasn't how he came over yesterday, both in the film, which was incredibly warm, very, very personal. And somehow managed to tell this story about the fact that, you know, the divorce of his parents was incredible, which is Cole and Ella's biological mother.

• 4:57Katty Kay?

  Kristen.

• 4:57Alastair Campbell?

  And Kristen, yeah, that, that was incredibly painful. But also that because of Kamala Harris's character, she, and they now call her Mamala, they, they became this extraordinary family, a blended family, as they called it. But I thought what his speech did brilliantly was match that story of her as a stepmother to the sort of care that she would, he would see her bringing to American people. But he did it with real wit. And do you know the other thing? A lot of the speakers we've seen this week, I heard you on your excellent podcast, Anthony, I heard you talking about how every good speaker's got a speaking coach. But what I thought was amazing about him was just how natural he was. It was autocued, it was, but he was, he was one of the few speakers this week who was,

• 5:40Alastair Campbell?

  felt like he was talking to and with the audience, kept pointing over to his family in the box, kept, he, I thought he was really great. And I agreed, I saw you tweet it last night, I, I agree with you. I thought that that was, of all the stuff, they've all said how great Kamala is, but there was something unbelievably human about the way that those two of them, the two of them, the son's film and then his speech, I thought was great. And he also said to me, he'll be a real asset on the road.

• 6:02Katty Kay?

  Yeah. Do you know, I've met him a couple of times, Anthony, and I think he is, he's very warm, he's very direct, he's incredibly personal. People who I know in Washington who know him much better like him a lot and say they have a very sweet relationship. Now, they've only been married 10 years, so it's still a relatively new-ish marriage. But what I also liked was the way he paid tribute. To his kid's mum, he thanked her as well. You know, forty percent of Americans are now in some sort of a blended family. It's not actually talked about a huge amount, but it is something that is more and more prevalent. My kids are in a blended family. They have a stepmother and a stepfather as well. And it's it's now these families coming together in a way that is increasingly normal.

• 6:43Katty Kay?

  And I love the way he said, you know, we might not look like the kind of family that's been in the White House before. But we are a very warm, loving family. And I think that situates her for all of the criticism that she's been getting as a cat lady from J D Vance's of the world. That situates her firmly in the role, in a maternal role. And I think that was very helpful.

• 7:02Alastair Campbell?

  Really powerful. Look, Donald Trump, your friend Donald Trump, Anthony, has been a massive, massive presence at this convention.

• 7:07Anthony Scaramucci?

  My friend.

• 7:08Alastair Campbell?

  Your friend. And he he also launched a very, very good attack on him, essentially saying, I know this woman, mate, and you don't know what's coming after you. She is coming for you.

• 7:18Katty Kay?

  That thing about family and protecting people, he combined with being a fighter. That was a big theme last night, wasn't it, Anthony, the fighting, her role as a fighter?

• 7:25Anthony Scaramucci?

  You know, I, you know, the Fed is having their meetings here Friday. We're having a cryptocurrency conference here. I stayed up and watched every one of those speeches. And my reaction, just three quick points on Doug Emhoff. Number one, he's a lawyer, he's an entertainment lawyer in L A. And he's a very disciplined guy. I have obviously buddies of mine that I went to law school with that are very close friends with him. And so I was not surprised at how well executed that speech was and how thoughtful it was. I think I've I've mentioned this to you before, Caddy, maybe we shared this on the podcast. I was on a bipartisan trip to Israel with the two of them. And I had a gentleman, he was my P R person. And he had lost his mom.

• 8:08Anthony Scaramucci?

  And we went to the tomb of Rebecca to say Kaddish for him. And when we got back to the hotel, Doug and Senator Harris, at that time Senator Harris, were in the lobby. And he had known about his, the death of his mother, Howard's mother. And he went over to him and talked to him about it. They were both from L A. And you could see the warmth between him and his wife. And their warmth towards my friend, the PR guy who lost his mom. And every element of that resonated last night. So as Alistair points out, my friend or former friend Donald Trump, who claims he's not watching the convention. He is, he is watching it actually.

• 8:51Anthony Scaramucci?

  So, so Catty texted me and said, do you think he's watching it? And I said, no, no, he's not watching it. I don't believe he's watching it. And then I called around and of course he's watching it. He can't help himself. It's like a fly to excrement. He can't help himself.

• 9:05Alastair Campbell?

  So are you saying, are you saying that the Democratic convention is shit? Is that what you're saying?

• 9:09Anthony Scaramucci?

  No, no, no. Well, I'm saying to Trump, in Trump's mind it is. In the mind of a fly, it may be. So he's being drawn to it. I didn't say that it actually was. Well, we'll go over my opinion of that in a second because I watched all of it last night. But you guys were there and I'm seeing it on TV. So probably different impression. But here's, here's the thing I want to say.

• 9:29Katty Kay?

  But you're seeing it the way most Americans are seeing it. So it's actually very good that you're seeing it on TV.

• 9:32Anthony Scaramucci?

  Yeah, exactly. And, you know, listen, sort of a weird thing to say, but if you caught it at seven o'clock, Stephanie Grisham, a friend of mine, who was also a former communications director and press secretary and communications director for the first lady Melania Trump, gave a six minute speech at seven PM, talking about the coldness of the Trump family and talking about his derisiveness towards his supporters and talking about how cold they were. And then, I don't know if they showed this there, but they put up a text message.

• 10:07Katty Kay?

  The text messages, amazing.

• 10:08Anthony Scaramucci?

  They did, yeah.

• 10:09Katty Kay?

  It was very powerful.

• 10:10Anthony Scaramucci?

  And it was very, very cold and it was very indicative.

• 10:12Katty Kay?

  That she had sent to Melania on January the 6th, saying, do you want to say, send out a tweet saying it's time for peaceful protest, that that's the law of the land, et cetera. And Melania just said back one word, no.

• 10:24Anthony Scaramucci?

  I just want to point that out to everybody. So you have Stephanie, who worked for the family, is in still distress about having worked for the family, made a very big, in my opinion, courageous decision to speak out and explain why he is not in the best interest of America or the world. It's a very tough thing for her to do. So I applaud her and admire her. And then you get Doug Emhoff. And he's painting this picture of a warmer family. You know, the chemistry is very good with him and the vice president. And I saw that six years ago when they were four years into their marriage. And they they have put the fun in the word dysfunctional catty K. Maybe the Scaramouches aren't as good at it as the Emhoffs or the catty K's of the world.

• 11:08Anthony Scaramucci?

  But they have done it. Okay. And it's very admirable. So the question is, how is that going to cross over to votes? And that's the and I think and I think Trump, okay, because I know him reasonably well, is going to get his cold streak going on them and dump more fire and brimstone. He's not going to go in reverse after watching that. He's going to get more aggressive with them because he's hoping that his aggression with them will break them and cause them to gaffe. And so anyway, those are my thoughts.

• 11:38Katty Kay?

  By the way, Michelle Obama, and we can get to that in just a second because there's one more thing I want to say about Doug Emhoff. Michelle Obama pointed to that aggression, what's coming down the pipe for Kamala Harris. I mean, she basically said, listen, this is this is the high point. But don't kid yourself. This is a woman of color who's running for president. And there is a whole load of stuff that is going to hit her. And much of it will be lies and misinformation, but it's going to come. And we say that with some experience. Okay, one other question about Doug Emhoff. And a lot was made of the fact, it was said in the video, he mentioned it. His son mentioned it. It was mentioned again at the end that he is the first second gentleman and would be the first first gentleman.

• 12:19Katty Kay?

  Do either of you as first gentlemen's in your own right, I think, I don't think either of you are playing the role of second gentleman in your marriages, think that a man who is playing the role of second gentleman, who has left behind their own career to support their husband, to support their wife, does that turn off any male voters in America today?

• 12:41Alastair Campbell?

  Poor.

• 12:42Katty Kay?

  Poor.

• 12:42Alastair Campbell?

  I don't know. It's a very, I mean, I don't know is the answer. But I read a fascinating piece this week on there's something called the Conversation, which is academics writing about politics and other stuff. And it's three American social scientist, political scientists who've done this big polling on what they call hostile sexism, where they find out how people are going to vote. This is in America. And they get the breakdown of going to vote Republican, going to vote Democrat. And they did it for Biden, Trump, and they've now done it for Harris, Trump. And what they do is they get the voting breakdown and then they ask them. Questions like, do you agree with the statement that women want power in politics to get power over men? And if your answer to that is yes, that's their motivation, you're basically, you

• 13:25Katty Kay?

  Unreconstructed.

• 13:26Alastair Campbell?

  You're hostile sexist, yeah. And then it would be things like, women aren't tough enough, or these are the sort of obvious things that some men say. And what established was a direct correlation between likelihood to vote Trump and hostile sexism. And that, I guess my question to you, Anthony, is, because to us, as Brits, most Brits, I think, look at some of the stuff he's saying about her now, her laugh, she's crazy, the DEI candidate, all sorts, which just feels like outward misogyny to us, and possibly a bit of misogynoir as well. Is, is he doing that deliberately because he thinks there is, there is a vote share there to be targeted, or is it just his usual nastiness?

• 14:06Anthony Scaramucci?

  Yeah, no, no, he, he thinks if you're voting Democrat, you're a beta male, okay, i.e. second gentleman. And if you're voting for him, you're an alpha male, i.e. you're a primary predator in the ape community. And so, yes, he's totally pushing that. And the, the short answer to Caddy's question is yes, he knows that, it's red meat. There are people in the Republican Party that feel that they have high testosterone if they're with Donald Trump. And if you don't have high testosterone, then you're not with Donald Trump. I know it sounds crazy, but that's how a lot of these people think.

• 14:40Katty Kay?

  Your poll is a little blunt in the way they asked the questions, but in the CBS poll that came out this week that had Kamala Harris creeping ahead in many of the battleground states, there's a, a more nuanced way, straightforward way this was asked, in which people were asked, do you think women's rights have gone far enough, or do you think women's rights have not gone far enough? And the answer found, not surprisingly, that women think women's rights have not gone far enough, but it also found that a majority of men think that women's rights have gone far enough. And I think this subject of her as a woman candidate, for the last four weeks, everybody's assumed, oh, well, it's fine, because she made it to the top of the primary and she's now the nominee. But I think we're going to start hearing more about that, and we're going to start hearing more about his role

• 15:25Katty Kay?

  as a second gentleman, and whether that, I think, you know, there may be voters who love it. But I think, I think what they were doing last night Was trying to tackle that head on and say, yes, he is going to be a second gentleman. It's a new role. It's never been done, but it doesn't mean that men who are alpha men can't vote for her.

• 15:43Anthony Scaramucci?

  So about three weeks ago, and I think I mentioned this to Catty, I got a call from his chief of staff. And she reached out to me and said, listen, the SG would like to talk to you. Would it be okay to share your cell phone number? He'll be coming in on an unknown number. So answer the unknown number. What is the SG? She's a second gentleman. Okay, so Doug calls himself the SG. He called me, got on the phone, Anthony, it's Doug Emhoff. We had a nice conversation. He didn't mention anything about you, Alistair. He didn't mention anything about me, but he said, I love Katty Kay on the podcast. Okay, and I overlooked that, you know, because I know I'm the second gentleman on the podcast. I overlooked that.

• 16:27Anthony Scaramucci?

  And then we proceeded to talk about the campaign and so on and so forth.

• 16:31Katty Kay?

  You never know with Anthony, whether he's just being nice.

• 16:33Anthony Scaramucci?

  No, well, obviously the viewers and listeners know I'm not being nice. They know it's true. I'm a teleclogging facts.

• 16:39Katty Kay?

  A fact check.

• 16:40Alastair Campbell?

  You've got to jump in. I've got to jump in here because let me just say, I've already had to chastise you once this morning. I am assuming that during this phone call, you said, well, we would love to do the first ever interview with the second gentleman ahead of the. I'm sure you said that, didn't you, Anthony?

• 16:57Anthony Scaramucci?

  I actually didn't. I went for the jugular and asked for the vice president. Okay, yes.

• 17:02Alastair Campbell?

  Well, that's fine. That's fine. Good. Okay, that's fine.

• 17:04Anthony Scaramucci?

  I just want you to know, I figured I only had one shot at the apple and I was shooting very high. Okay.

• 17:09Alastair Campbell?

  But you did it for the UK. You did it for the father version of the podcast.

• 17:13Anthony Scaramucci?

  I said, listen, Rory and Alistair want to interview the vice president.

• 17:16Katty Kay?

  The parents.

• 17:16Anthony Scaramucci?

  Exactly.

• 17:17Katty Kay?

  And we're a little bit in the doghouse, so.

• 17:19Anthony Scaramucci?

  Catty and I are under the stairs like Harry Potter, but our, our parents are in the kitchen. They want to meet the vice president. That's basically what I said.

• 17:26Katty Kay?

  Can you help us out because otherwise we're grounded.

• 17:28Anthony Scaramucci?

  But, but I just want to say this about him. Okay. Right away, he brought up Howard and talked about his.

• 17:35Alastair Campbell?

  This is your friend?

• 17:35Anthony Scaramucci?

  Unfortunately, yeah, my friend. And now he unfortunately had leukemia and he passed away since the 2018.

• 17:43Anthony Scaramucci?

  encounter in Jerusalem. And so we discussed that and we discussed what a great guy he was. And then we talked about some of our mutual friends in the legal community. And then he said, Hey, thanks because you've been supportive of us, blah, blah. And he's coming to New York and we were going to figure out a way to to to meet up and so forth. But why am I bringing all this up? It's a great name dropper and I you see look up name dropping, you'll see me in the dictionary. So that's one of the reasons. But but the second reason I'm bringing it up is that it was so disciplined. He was so on point. He he asked me for names of Republicans that he could talk to. Okay, some of which frankly are speaking at the event. Okay, and that are friends of mine. And I was like, you know, when I hung up the phone, it takes two to tango.

• 18:27Anthony Scaramucci?

  There there is a Barack Obama who is a superstar, but he's made better by the other superstar, Michelle Obama. And I think he is helping her in ways that you probably don't see on the surface. The the duck is paddling very quickly under the water on her behalf. And I was very impressed with it.

• 18:47Katty Kay?

  I like that. I like his discipline. I like the fact that he's working to get her elected. That's great. By the way, that in broadcasting is what they call a perfect segue. So let's move on to the Obamas because we now spent most of our podcast on Doug Emhoff, who I think is a fascinating figure and I think the role he has and I like the blended family and talking about that. Michelle Obama on fire last night. We said this about Hillary Clinton yesterday, that she's somebody who doesn't care too much. And what people think about her, she's been, you know, through the mill and back again. And she is unshackled. And I think we had Michelle Obama last night talking in a way she would have avoided talking in 2008, where she was very careful not to be seen, as she said quite publicly, as an angry black woman.

• 19:31Katty Kay?

  But when she said that bit about he has a problem with two very successful, highly educated, hardworking people who happen to be black, she wouldn't have said that in 2008. And she said it last night and it was incredibly effective. And then she combined it with that great humorous line. And by the way, who's going to tell Donald Trump that that job he's looking for might just be one of those black jobs? I thought she was fantastic last night. I thought she was. We hear Michelle, part of Michelle Obama's superpower is that you hear her very seldom, basically every four years at a convention. And when you do, she delivers.

• 20:03Alastair Campbell?

  I I still I agreed with what you both said on your podcast yesterday that Hillary's speech was, I think it was the best speech I've ever seen her make. I've never seen Michelle Obama make a political speech in the flesh before, but it was utterly electrifying. Some of the lines were phenomenal. One of the things I wanted to ask you, though, both of you, you rightly say that the the audience went wild with that thing. Maybe somebody's going to tell him this is a one of those black jobs. And this is when Trump talked about black jobs, which is a reference back reference to when he went to the National Association of Black Journalists and talked about black jobs and in a pretty derogatory kind of way. It went down amazingly in the hall. Would there have been people watching

• 20:44Alastair Campbell?

  that who are not necessarily, you know, might be swinging either way, not quite sure, would there would there be people who might have taken that badly? In other words, take the message that she's basically saying, this is a black job. You know, you've had Obama, and now you're going to get Kamala, and you better like it. Was that a risk?

• 21:02Anthony Scaramucci?

  Oh, yeah. Well, Republicans responded that way on social media.

• 21:06Alastair Campbell?

  Did they?

• 21:07Anthony Scaramucci?

  Republic. Yes, they did. And they took it that way. And a lot of his sort of social media influencers were suggesting it that way.

• 21:16Alastair Campbell?

  Right.

• 21:17Anthony Scaramucci?

  But it was a it was a well delivered line, and she was playing to their base. And I got a question for both of you. I'd like to get your reaction, because I've watched two nights of the convention. And my reaction is, it is weirdly similar to the Republican convention in the following respect. They are both playing hard to their basis. I didn't see anything in the middle. I didn't see any pro business discussions. I didn't see any pivots. You know, she's going to have to answer these questions at one point. What's your position on fracking? Do you still believe in the new Green Deal? Are you really going to tax unrealized gains and move every millionaire off of the shore of the United States? She's

• 22:00Anthony Scaramucci?

  going to have to answer these questions. So to me, I feel like both parties have said, we're going with our base for the win. Okay, J D Vance, that's the base for the win. Tim Walz, that's the base for the win. And the speeches, which are obviously cleared by her campaign, everybody gets the transcript of the speech before it's delivered, these are base speeches for the win. And I thought she gave a great base speech. And so the black jobs comment. Was delivered well and it was well received by our base. But I think it it rang a different bell in some of the Republican quadrants of the country.

• 22:37Katty Kay?

  And it rang it rang a different bell from the type of bell Barack Obama was trying to ring in 2008.

• 22:43Anthony Scaramucci?

  Yeah.

• 22:43Katty Kay?

  Where he was very careful not to talk about himself in the context of his race. And she last night went hard on that. He didn't do it as much. But she did. And I think she's given up the, you know, when they go low, we go high. She's, you know, when they go low, we go and fight with them.

• 22:57Anthony Scaramucci?

  It felt pretty good low to me.

• 22:58Katty Kay?

  We get down there and we fight with them.

• 22:59Anthony Scaramucci?

  Can I say something very metrosexual before we go to the next topic, though? Do you mind? Because I've been been accused by our viewers and listeners as a metrosexual. Yeah, her hairstyle was a very big statement. And you think I'm crazy. Malice is going to roll his eyes maybe, but.

• 23:13Katty Kay?

  You're completely right.

• 23:14Anthony Scaramucci?

  Let me tell you why. Okay, it was pulled back, okay? And she had it off her face for a reason. She wanted every part of her face, every part of her facial expressions, expressed on that television for that speech. And and she did that. And so I think it was well thought out how she was going to dress and how she was going to present her hair last night. You agree with me, Cathy?

• 23:41Katty Kay?

  Yeah, I do. And I think it was not, there was no attempt at straightening the hair. She used to do that when she was First Lady. Sometimes she would straighten her hair in a way that looks, you know, less black, classically. This had rows, there were extensions, there were the braids. It was much more, this is who I am and I'm 60 now and I'm going to say it like it is.

• 23:58Alastair Campbell?

  A really important point I thought she made, which also echoed something that Hillary Clinton said, is they were both hammering this no complacency message.

• 24:07Katty Kay?

  Yes.

• 24:07Alastair Campbell?

  You know, we've got to keep fighting. This is not over. This is not won. Just before, Cathy and I were at the CNN Grill.

• 24:14Anthony Scaramucci?

  Cafe.

• 24:15Alastair Campbell?

  Yeah, outside the convention. And we bumped into somebody I'm sure you'll know. David Urban, who's the CNN commentator.

• 24:22Anthony Scaramucci?

  Yeah, I campaigned with David for Trump in 2016 all over Pennsylvania.

• 24:27Alastair Campbell?

  Right, and interesting, so we had that conversation with him just before we went in and he, we're gonna, we're gonna talk to him later because I, I found it very interesting. He, and I know he's a propagandist and he's for Trump, et cetera, but he made an observation to me, which I took into the hall. And he said, there's an amazing vibe here. It's incredibly exciting. There's lots of love for Biden. There's lots of love for Kamala. It's just, there's a great buzz. I get that. But, and this is what I used, always used to do at Labour Party conferences. You've got to put yourself in the mind who's somebody who's not part of your tribe, who's watching this and what are they going to think? And you're making the same point in a different way, Anthony, where you said this, these are two conventions that have gone to the base. What has to happen out of the end of this week is a campaign

• 25:11Alastair Campbell?

  that is focused on getting the people over who are currently not voting for you.

• 25:15Anthony Scaramucci?

  Amen, amen.

• 25:16Alastair Campbell?

  Yeah.

• 25:16Katty Kay?

  Well, okay, so, well, there's a debate about that, right? Do you, or do you make this a turnout election? Do you think that if you can grow your numbers?

• 25:25Alastair Campbell?

  It's part of the same thing.

• 25:25Katty Kay?

  But if you, well, it's, it's different if you think you're trying to grow your numbers with low information voters who will be making up their minds at the last minute in the last couple of days and vote on a vibe, as opposed to are you trying to get somebody who's already thinking about voting for Trump?

• 25:37Alastair Campbell?

  You've got to do both, you've got to do both.

• 25:39Katty Kay?

  I don't think they can get Trump voters. I think they, they're thinking, you go for the low information voters who haven't made up their mind, who make up their mind in the last couple of weeks, may or may not turn out.

• 25:48Anthony Scaramucci?

  I don't, I don't think they need Trump voters, but they, if they only got a few non-voters, if they were able to bring in non-voters. But the problem is, what are the policies? What are the moderations? What are the policies? You know, Dave Urban, who plays the part of the Republican on CNN alongside of other Republicans. The Republican talking point narrative there is that things are so bad in the last 16 years.

• 26:17Anthony Scaramucci?

  The Democrats have controlled things 12 of the last 16 years. So why is it all Trump's fault? And David Axelrod got blunted by that comment. Okay, I think Scott Reynolds made the comment. And, and he got blunted by the comment, but the answer was a simple answer. It was, well, no, Obama handed Trump a very decent, growing economy. And Trump, whether you like it or not, botched the COVID response and lost 21 million jobs. And it was decisions on his watch that caused the inflation. In terms of all the induction of the fiscal and monetary policy that was pushed into the economy.

• 26:59Anthony Scaramucci?

  But my point is, you, you cannot be flat footed in this election. So David is not flat footed. I know him well. He's a West Point grad, working contemporaries. He's a great guy. He's a great American and he's a moderate, by the way. Okay, he's with Trump because you got to pick sides here, guys. Okay, but he's a moderate. But I think that the Democrats are going to make a mistake here if they don't respond to everything. And because let me tell you something, you know, there's a lot of guys in the middle that are going to say, you know what? Wasn't so bad with Trump. I'm voting for Trump. She's an unknown entity to me. She's not Joe Biden.

• 27:37Katty Kay?

  I don't know that the convention is the place for policy details, though. And I don't think you're going to get a whole economic policy rollout at the convention because these people are not giving speeches that are based on tax policy or price gouging. You're going to get that coming out later in either in a series of interviews. If she decides to do them, you're going to get that at the debate. This is her story. This is trying to get Americans to actually wake up. You know, 30% of Americans say they have no idea who she is. So this is all about selling the commodity, selling the candidate.

• 28:09Alastair Campbell?

  David Urban made a very interesting point to me. And I don't know whether he'd actually looked up the numbers, but he said something like, On day one, Trump's name was mentioned something like 184 times, whereas the economy was only mentioned five. And I don't know if that's figures right or wrong. I have been surprised that there hasn't been more Trump people who are actually, I thought one of the most powerful-

• 28:27Katty Kay?

  We've got more coming.

• 28:28Alastair Campbell?

  I know, but I thought one of the most powerful speeches last night, which was lost because of the Obamas, was actually that mayor.

• 28:33Katty Kay?

  Yeah, he was great, the mayor from Arizona.

• 28:35Alastair Campbell?

  Arizona, yeah.

• 28:36Katty Kay?

  Yeah, it was great. It was very short, it was three minutes.

• 28:37Alastair Campbell?

  Yeah, and Auntie mentioned Stephanie Grisham, who I agree, I thought was incredibly powerful. I thought both of those speeches were powerful for being so short, actually. But I would have liked to, I'd like to see more people coming out and not just attacking Trump on character, which they're all doing, but attacking Trump, as you've just said, on policy failure.

• 28:56Katty Kay?

  We have missed, you know, who was the star of the show, or ostensibly the star of the show. I think we spent more time talking about Doug Emhoff and Michelle Obama than we expected because they were so good last night, and perhaps because they were not Barack Obama. Barack Obama, we know he is the best orator in the Democratic Party, and he delivered that. And there were a whole load of people who were sitting in that audience saying, damn, can't we change the constitution to have a third term?

• 29:16Alastair Campbell?

  Yeah, he's, listen, if you've got a voice like that-

• 29:18Katty Kay?

  If you've got a voice like that, he was so good.

• 29:20Alastair Campbell?

  And if you've got the-

• 29:20Katty Kay?

  And a sense of humour, he was wry.

• 29:22Alastair Campbell?

  Yeah.

• 29:23Katty Kay?

  Made a little dig on hand sizes. His thing about, his thing about that-

• 29:26Anthony Scaramucci?

  His own age, he says, of course, I haven't changed at all, I haven't aged, but-

• 29:29Katty Kay?

  Yes, he was good.

• 29:30Anthony Scaramucci?

  But there's something that I noticed in his speech that I just want to share with you, and it was time. And I don't know how to say this, but like, my old boss used to yell at me when I was a 27-year-old. He says, you need a tincture of time. You're smart enough to do the job, but you don't know what the hell you're doing. You need a tincture of time. And when I looked at Barack Obama last night, with his grey hair, very well dressed, trim guy, he has a level of wisdom now that he frankly did not have in 04, when he gave the speech in Boston, or even the nomination acceptance speech in 08. And

• 30:10Anthony Scaramucci?

  if they deploy him, and they deploy him with his wisdom, his almost shaman-like wisdom about the country. And Obama has read more of Abraham Lincoln, and Lincoln's writings, and through his writings, his teachings frankly, than any other living politician.

• 30:32Anthony Scaramucci?

  And it is really a time, and I would implore you guys, if you're interested in America, to read the speeches and writings of Lincoln. I've gone back and started reading them again. And, and you can catch in Obama's speech, Lincoln-esque thoughts about the country, about the need to reunite the country, about the need for us to all be part of the self-governing process. And if they push him out into the American public and deploy him in a way that isn't, doesn't overshadow Vice President Harris or Vice Presidential nominee Tim Walz, Governor Walz, I think it'll be a beautiful thing. He'd be like,

• 31:14Anthony Scaramucci?

  hey, listen, I've been through the mill. I was an African American at Harvard Law School in 1990 where cabs in Cambridge, Massachusetts were passing me. In the year 2000, and he wrote this in his book, I had credit card debt. I had net negative net worth. Eight years later, I was the first black president of the United States. I've been through the mill, and I get this country. Give me a chance to go out there, to explain to my fellow Americans, why the two of you need to be the people to lead the country over the next four to possibly eight years. I hope they do that, because that is an incredible weapon they have on their side. And the Republicans have nothing, nothing like that on their side. Nothing like that.

• 31:58Alastair Campbell?

  One thing I've been really impressed by this week is the, in fact, it's a point that Rory made on our podcast, is just how many really, really, really good speakers the Democrats have got. And it's for an American campaign, quite short. And if you sort of imagine that you're going to have a day where Obama's the big support act, another day where Hillary is, another day where Bill Clinton is, another day where Shapiro might be, another day where Buttigieg, who's interviewed, by the way, I've watched some of his interviews this week, that guy's a communications genius, let me tell you. He's great. And so whereas Trump, is it right that there's only four members who served him with him under the cabinet who are actually still saying they're gonna

• 32:40Katty Kay?

  Nineteen who say they won't endorse him.

• 32:43Alastair Campbell?

  They won't endorse him. So that sense of, you know, and you talk about Lincoln a lot, and I agree with you. I think Lincoln's one of the greatest, well, he's one of the greatest politicians ever, but his speeches are still worth reading today. But that thing that Harry Truman said about, you know, it's amazing what a team's can achieve, provided nobody cares who gets the credit. I think if they've got, for all the tensions that I've been hearing about, and I've heard you talk about as well, there have been tensions between Biden and Obama, there have been tensions between Harris and Obama and all that. But if you can get these guys on the same pitch for a campaign, where they are very generously playing very much second fiddle to Kamala Harris, it could be unbelievably powerful.

• 33:17Katty Kay?

  They are desperate to win.

• 33:18Alastair Campbell?

  Yeah.

• 33:19Katty Kay?

  They are desperate to beat Donald Trump. And getting on the same team is not going to be difficult for them this time around. They'll put all of that aside in order to get her through November. After that, let's see what happens.

• 33:29Alastair Campbell?

  Yeah.

• 33:29Katty Kay?

  But they'll get her through November. Barack Obama was very gracious about Joe Biden last night. And he actually took time to thank the former president and said nice things about him. I mean, the implicit criticism of Barack Obama is there he is saying, as you just said, let's all come together, which is exactly what he said in 2004. The country is more divided today than it was when he made that speech back in 2004. So although that was his aspiration, he hasn't actually managed to deliver it, or he didn't during his presidency. Okay, we're gonna take a quick break and then come back with a couple of guests from the convention floor. And then we will talk about the rumors that RFK Junior is dropping out. Stay with us.

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• 36:06Katty Kay?

  Okay, so we're standing inside the convention hall, and I've just been onto the floor, and I have grabbed out Kaylee from the Pennsylvania delegation because Anthony Scaramucci asked to speak to somebody from Pennsylvania. So Kaylee, tell me who you are and what you're doing here.

• 36:19Speaker 09

  Yeah, my name is Kaylee Warner. I just turned 21 years old. I am a student at Indiana University in Bloomington, Indiana, and I'm here to make history.

• 36:28Katty Kay?

  But you're here with the Pennsylvania delegation.

• 36:30Speaker 09

  I am, born and raised in Pittsburgh.

• 36:32Katty Kay?

  So what does a delegate from Pennsylvania do at the Chicago Democratic National Convention? What's your role here?

• 36:38Speaker 09

  Fair question. We actually got to do our role as delegates a few weeks ago when... We nominated Vice President Harris and Tim Walz to be on the ballot come November. And now we all get to come together, celebrate, party and get everyone energized and excited behind this ticket.

• 36:55Katty Kay?

  So you're 21. You must be one of the youngest delegates here.

• 36:58Speaker 09

  Yes, I am.

• 36:59Katty Kay?

  The youngest, perhaps?

• 37:01Speaker 09

  Definitely the youngest in Pennsylvania, from what I know.

• 37:03Katty Kay?

  What are you thinking about the change at the top of the ticket? And I know I'm asking this specifically this question to you.

• 37:08Speaker 09

  Exactly.

• 37:09Katty Kay?

  I mean, did you look at Joe Biden and your heart went pitter patter and you thought, wow, this is great? Or did you look at Joe Biden and think, my God, he's older than my great, great grandfather. I need somebody younger.

• 37:20Speaker 09

  Listen, I've always been a politics junkie. So for me, I was very excited to stand behind that ticket. But a lot of my friends are not addicted to the news the way that I am. So for them, there has been a little bit less excitement around the Democratic Party in the past few months. But the second this campaign switched up and now Kamala Harris is at the top of our ticket, I have seen incredible amounts of excitement and energized delegates and energized youth behind this ticket. And I think that more than anything, people are just excited to see themselves in a elected official.

• 37:51Katty Kay?

  She's not that young. She's my age. She's 60.

• 37:54Speaker 09

  She's definitely not that young, but she's a woman and she is from minority background. And I think that that resonates with a lot of people, especially a lot of the young women that I know and I'm friends with. And then we also have Tim Walz, whose daughter is my age and she.

• 38:09Katty Kay?

  By the way, she, Hope, she's super cool. I love the video.

• 38:12Speaker 09

  She's so cool.

• 38:13Katty Kay?

  All the TikTok videos that she does.

• 38:14Speaker 09

  Yeah. And I think that it's that kind of thing. That's what's pulling my generation back is people like her calling her dad a Midwestern princess. Everybody's jumping onto that trend and loving her, loving the vibe and energy that's being spread right now.

• 38:26Katty Kay?

  So Kelly, how do you see it translating into votes and to the Democrats' chances in November? Because as you said, a lot of people are not political junkies. Everybody here at the convention is. But there are millions of Americans who have busy lives there. They've got kids, they've got jobs, they're studying in college. They haven't really tuned in yet. How do you think the change at the top of the ticket will actually translate to votes?

• 38:47Speaker 09

  Well, when I was growing up, I was raised with a set of values of respecting other people and uplifting people and this sense of community everywhere you go. I didn't learn until much later that that is what politics is all about. And so I've been urging people my generation to realize that whatever ticket you're voting for, you're voting on your values and everything that you stand for. So for everyone out there, every average American, it's about us finding ways that we can work towards those values. And whether that's in small ways, like getting your neighbor, helping drive your neighbor to the polls so they can cast their ballot for whoever they want, or if it's in big ways, like starting to get out the vote campaign and showing people all about voting rights in the United

• 39:30Speaker 09

  States and how lucky we are today that we get the opportunity to show up and vote, because that's not the way it is in every country, and that's not the way it was in America a long time ago, when only men could vote, for example.

• 39:40Katty Kay?

  White men.

• 39:41Speaker 09

  White men, yeah, exactly. And so I think that we need to remember our values, go back to those, and fight all the way through November with that on the top of our brains. And then I'm not, I have no worries in my brain that Vice President Harris will win this thing.

• 39:53Katty Kay?

  When you talk to people about Kamala Harris, do you have a sense that even those who are not politically active will turn out and vote and might not have done for Joe Biden?

• 40:03Speaker 09

  Oh, yes. Oh, yes. I think it's this excitement and energy that's being brought to youth right now that we just haven't seen in so long. People, I mean, this is going to be my first time voting in a general election. So my fears-

• 40:15Katty Kay?

  That's crazy.

• 40:16Speaker 09

  For my fears, it's the same way. And that's a little bit different for us because our first time voting, we were looking at, I mean, to put it bluntly, two old white men that were our options. And that's not so fun as like a young, first time voter to be going out to the ballot box and casting a vote for. And I know that maybe Kamala isn't that young, but it's creating excitement for all of us.

• 40:38Katty Kay?

  So Kate, is it about her and the kind of atmosphere that there is around her as much as it is about her specific policies? What's, what is it that's important to you?

• 40:46Speaker 09

  I think she has many of the same policies as President Biden did. And that's why I was excited to become a delegate for him and excited to come here and cast my vote for him. I think the difference is that she brings with her an energy. Energy that's contagious and that's going to carry us very far.

• 41:00Katty Kay?

  A vibe.

• 41:00Speaker 09

  Democratic Party. A vibe, yes, exactly.

• 41:03Katty Kay?

  I mean, there will be people who will vote just on the basis of a vibe.

• 41:06Speaker 09

  It's true.

• 41:07Katty Kay?

  Who will not have checked out her economic policies, will not have checked out her positions on fracking.

• 41:10Speaker 09

  It's true, yes.

• 41:11Katty Kay?

  For example, in Pennsylvania, she did in the 2020 election, say that she opposed fracking.

• 41:16Speaker 09

  Yes.

• 41:16Katty Kay?

  It's an important issue in the state of Pennsylvania.

• 41:18Speaker 09

  Very big in Pennsylvania.

• 41:20Katty Kay?

  Would you like to see her reverse herself more forcefully? Do you think Pennsylvanians are happy with the fact that she has said, actually, you know what? I've changed my position on fracking. Does that go far enough to people you speak to?

• 41:31Speaker 09

  Pennsylvania is a swing state, so we're going to get people who think everything from yay fracking to let's get rid of it and everything in between of laws and policies. So I think that there's, there's no answer that she could give that's going to directly affect the way that the Pennsylvanians will vote for her. But what I do think is that she needs to keep up this vibe, this energy, this enthusiasm. And it won't be about voting on one policy in November. It's about voting on every policy combined, and that's basic human rights and decency.

• 42:02Katty Kay?

  Kayleigh, what worries you about this election?

• 42:04Speaker 09

  Oh, so much. That's the worst question to ask me. My mom always say that I'm a worry ball, but, but what I've been getting better at is handing her my worries and getting out there and doing the work that needs to be done and letting her hold them. So I'm trying not to think about that and I'm trying to continue to motivate and excite my peers and get the work done through November.

• 42:23Katty Kay?

  Do you feel as a young delegate that really your role here is to get other young people out to vote? Is that your biggest asset to the Pennsylvania delegation?

• 42:31Speaker 09

  Well, I think that everyone here, their job is to create this excitement while we're at the DNC that we can bring home to our own communities. And within my community, there are 17 of us delegates. And so within those 17 of us, I'm the youngest. My job is to bring this back to all the young people like me who get to vote for the first time. And so that's, that's, I'm carrying that weight on my shoulders.

• 42:51Katty Kay?

  I have to let you get back into the floor, but here's one more question.

• 42:53Speaker 09

  Yes.

• 42:54Katty Kay?

  Do you feel you know what Kamala Harris stands for?

• 42:58Speaker 09

  Absolutely. And she stands for every human being mattering in this country and abroad.

• 43:03Katty Kay?

  Okay, Kayleigh, thank you very much for joining me.

• 43:05Speaker 09

  Thank you so much.

• 43:10Katty Kay?

  So that was Kayleigh from Pennsylvania, Alastair.

• 43:13Alastair Campbell?

  I mean, that is what we call.

• 43:15Katty Kay?

  She's got your vote.

• 43:15Alastair Campbell?

  Oh, she's a message machine, that girl. Do you know what I've been really struck by, wandering around the place, just talking to people, is that, you know, you talked earlier about, you know, low information people and that sense of there being a kind of quite a lot of people who are not well educated, presumably not very articulate and so forth. I am amazed at the articulacy of the average person that you talk to at this convention. That was exceptional, I thought. She was like, not a single um, not a single ah, not a single pause when you asked some pretty, you know, tricky questions. Just knowing what to say and how to say it, I thought was really impressive.

• 43:54Katty Kay?

  Anthony?

• 43:54Anthony Scaramucci?

  Oh, listen.

• 43:55Katty Kay?

  I found you a delegate from Pennsylvania.

• 43:57Anthony Scaramucci?

  Yeah, well, I'm impressed and I'm also impressed at the age of the delegate. And I would also say to you that if you put her at those universities, Pitt, Carnegie Mellon, and you put her around the state, even if you go to Wilkes-Barre, Scranton, University of Pennsylvania, if you get her to speak and you get her to canvas, she will do phenomenally well in that state. And that is a very weird state. And I think you guys know this, but it's important to just repeat it to viewers and listeners. The left side of the state feels a lot like Ohio. It's industrialized, post-industrial era, steelmaking, the Pittsburgh Steelers. The eastern side of the state is more like the northeast corridor, the Amtrak side

• 44:40Anthony Scaramucci?

  of the state, Philadelphia being more liberal, Pittsburgh actually more conservative. The middle of the state, they call it pencil Kentucky, because it's really a lot more like Kentucky than it is either of the two ends of the state. So what we did in 2016, David Urban, Alastair's new friend and I, we canvassed that state for 45 days in an ellipse, up and down and around the state. And if Vice President Harris does that. With the help of Governor Shapiro and his offices, conjoined with her field offices, she's got a really, really good chance to win the state, but she better have an answer on the fracking. Got to have an answer on fracking. All of that nice stuff that was just said by that 21-year-old?

• 45:25Anthony Scaramucci?

  Yeah, that's great, but what is your position now on fracking? And will the Pennsylvanians that need fracking for their lifestyles, will they support her if she's moderating her position? And then what happens to her with all the environmentalists on her left flank?

• 45:39Katty Kay?

  Okay, I had one more interview as well last night because I bumped into somebody who you like, Anthony, and we did this interview as a little surprise for you. My gift to Anthony Scaramucci, Senator Mark Kelly of Arizona.

• 45:56Katty Kay?

  Senator, the first time I ever interviewed you was back in 2008 at the Democratic Convention for Barack Obama. This convention here in Chicago is now being compared to that one in terms of energy and excitement. Is that how it feels to you?

• 46:08Speaker 10

  I feel like there's even more energy here. And that's because, remember in 2008, who Barack Obama was running against? John McCain, right? John McCain was a hero of mine. And I obviously supported Barack Obama. Barack Obama, one of our greatest presidents. But John McCain, conservative, stand-up Republican, who was a patriot, who served our country in a way I would not, I mean, in a way that most people can't even understand. As a prisoner of war, as a Navy combat pilot, and then as a US Senator, US House member, and then as a US Senator, candidate for president. I mean, and that's what 2008 was. And now we're here in 2024,

• 46:50Speaker 10

  and you have an experienced prosecutor, an Attorney General, US Senator, Vice President, running against a convicted felon. You can't make this stuff up. And by the way, this is a guy, what did he do when he was president? He gave a giant tax cut to himself, a billionaire and his billionaire friends. He shredded a bunch of our alliances and sucked up to a bunch of dictators. And then he took away women's reproductive rights. So that's why you have a lot of this energy. I mean, it's Kamala Harris and Tim Walz, great candidates, great leaders, experience, have a record of accomplishments, both of them. But on the other hand, you almost couldn't come up with, with somebody that, in my opinion, is the worst candidate.

• 47:32Katty Kay?

  A couple of weeks ago, I interviewed you and I asked you whether you would make a good vice presidential candidate because of your stance on the border. Do you think that Kamala Harris still has vulnerabilities when it comes to the issue of immigration? You answered the question, by the way, very elegantly.

• 47:48Speaker 10

  She gets it. She, she has already said that if we bring back that bipartisan border security bill, she would, she would sign it. She's worked on this issue. The White House has worked on this issue with me. We've made incredible progress. The numbers, the border crossing numbers are down significantly. Now, here's what's unfortunate. This stuff really should be done through legislation and we were so close. But Donald Trump told Republican senators who, who, who were about to vote for the legislation that they had to walk away from this. And then what they did is they ran away from it. I have never seen such a hypocritical move in Washington as I did when Donald Trump told them that they couldn't vote for this. I mean, this is Washington DC we're talking about.

• 48:32Speaker 10

  This is like the craziest, most hypocritical thing I've ever...

• 48:34Katty Kay?

  There is some hypocrisy in Washington DC.

• 48:36Speaker 10

  But this is like, this is off the, this will go down in the history books as the most hypocritical thing anybody has ever done in serving in public office. To talk about this issue over and over again. And then finally get to the point where we actually have a very reasonable solution that was going to provide more pay for border patrol agents. Border Patrol Union supported this. More pay, more border patrol agents, more CBP officers, more machines to detect fentanyl.

• 49:01Speaker 10

  Think about that for a second. We do not have the funding for those machines because Donald Trump killed it. What that means is more fentanyl now comes across the border. It would have been detected. More people now die of overdoses because Donald Trump told Senate Republicans-

• 49:14Katty Kay?

  Do you think he cares about that?

• 49:16Speaker 10

  No, I don't think he cares about it. He only cares about himself. He's made this very clear. I've been watching this guy since the 19, early 1980s. He cares about one person, and that's Donald Trump. He doesn't care about the American people. Kamala Harris cares about families and members of the military who serve, who have, you know, who have paid the ultimate price in service to our country. Donald Trump calls them suckers and losers.

• 49:43Katty Kay?

  Is she gonna win Arizona, your state?

• 49:45Speaker 10

  Yeah. She's, yeah, she's gonna win Arizona, and she's gonna win the White House.

• 49:52Katty Kay?

  Anthony, I know that you wanted Senator Mark Kelly to be the VP pick for Vice President Harris. What did you think of what he said there? I didn't think he actually said anything massively substantive apart from the fact that she, he felt she wasn't going to be vulnerable on the border. He's on message.

• 50:09Anthony Scaramucci?

  He's a good messenger. It's interesting, Alistair agreed with me. He thought he should also be the Vice President. I think he would have covered more ground for her. I guess what we don't know is in the vetting process. We never know, you know, did somebody have a tax indiscretion, God forbid, or did somebody pay a non-documented worker to do domestic housekeeping in there? We don't know. So, and I'm not saying he did any of those things, but I think he is the right guy because she would have gotten Arizona. He would have helped her so much on that border issue, and he would have helped her in Virginia, guys, because we're loaded up with Navy in Virginia. We're loaded up with veterans, retired veterans in Virginia. He's a naval aviator. He's an astronaut. She would have

• 50:52Anthony Scaramucci?

  gotten a two-for-one special with him. And I'm not saying that Governor Walz isn't a good guy and isn't a good messenger for her. And I think he plays well. He has better approval ratings than JD Vance, although I think this bottle of half-finished water would have better approval ratings than JD Vance. But I just think Mark Kelly was a guy that, it was a missed opportunity there, in my opinion. I appreciate you bringing him in as a surprise.

• 51:17Katty Kay?

  Plus, he's got a twin. You could have had two for one.

• 51:19Anthony Scaramucci?

  Yeah, I appreciate you bringing him as a surprise guest. You know, I have a lot of respect for him and I know a lot of people in the, what I would call the independent moderate community would identify with his life story.

• 51:30Alastair Campbell?

  I thought it was interesting what you said about the interview itself is that he had that, you know, sometimes like if you're doing a, I felt if you're doing a book tour or you're an event where you're having to do the same interview again and again and again, I felt he had his.

• 51:42Katty Kay?

  He was a little on message.

• 51:43Alastair Campbell?

  He had a three or four talking points in his head.

• 51:45Katty Kay?

  And he was gonna get them out.

• 51:46Alastair Campbell?

  But he was effective. But I'd have to say, and if I was one of these kind of floating voters just listening in, I'd have been more persuaded by the first interview.

• 51:57Katty Kay?

  By Kayleigh, me too. In this country, I would nearly always rather interview a voter than an elected official.

• 52:03Alastair Campbell?

  Which in most countries, you wouldn't say that.

• 52:05Katty Kay?

  They are on message. Elected officials are on message and voters actually talk from their heart. Okay, guys, before we go, what about these rumors that RF Kennedy Jr. is thinking of dropping out of the race and endorsing Trump? I don't know. I mean, in a very tight race, of course, every vote makes a difference. He's currently polling in the battleground states at about 3%. He's dropped down from 10%. So he's less of a force in the race today than he would have been a month ago. I spoke to a friend of mine who runs a group called Voto Latino yesterday, who was very excited. We bumped into her, Alistair, and she had new polls showing that Kennedy was actually pulling

• 52:45Katty Kay?

  more votes from Trump at the moment than he is from Harris. I don't know that it makes a huge amount of difference at this stage, him dropping out. What's your take?

• 52:57Anthony Scaramucci?

  Well, I mean, listen, he was funded by Steve Bannon and he was funded by the alt-right because they thought that he would, he would take, remember, the alt-right Bannon is, look, I can't stand him, but he's a smart dude. Trump's got a high floor, low ceiling at 47.5%. Let's fund Jill Stein. Let's fund RFK Jr. Chip away from whoever the Democratic nominee is. And so if it's not working, and Nicole Shanahan, his vice presidential pick, said on a podcast yesterday that they are thinking about dropping out. And then if they did drop out, they would endorse Trump. So that's all the tells that you need to know.

• 53:38Katty Kay?

  And you don't say that in public unless you're going to do it. Because by the time you say that, you're a lame duck.

• 53:43Anthony Scaramucci?

  Republican plant, a little bit of worm eating of the brain, a little bit of dropping off. I mean, he's a bear undertaker, dropping off a bear in Central Park. I mean, it probably killed his chances. What can I, what can I tell you?

• 53:57Katty Kay?

  Between the worm and the brain, this was a campaign that was on his last legs.

• 54:02Anthony Scaramucci?

  If you need worm bait, you have RFK Junior's brain. And if you ever find a dead bear somewhere, call him. He's got his own bear funeral home.

• 54:08Katty Kay?

  I mean, it's what I, you know, if I see a dead bear, it's my instinct is to shove it in the boot of my trunk, in the boot of my car, too.

• 54:15Anthony Scaramucci?

  Take a few pictures of it first.

• 54:17Katty Kay?

  Yeah, with my finger in his mouth.

• 54:18Alastair Campbell?

  Angie, can I just, can I just ask you a question? That one of the things that's kind of running quite big in the media today is this Middle East plan. And there's a story running, I don't know where it came from, but it seems to be quite big, that Donald Trump phoned Netanyahu yesterday and said, don't support this because it would be bad for my campaign. Now.

• 54:37Katty Kay?

  Actually, it's a call that was made on August the 14th. Axios has the story. So it was made about a week ago.

• 54:42Alastair Campbell?

  Okay.

• 54:43Katty Kay?

  Reportedly.

• 54:44Alastair Campbell?

  Now, in your assessment, I mean, that sounds to me like, well, one, it's a repeat of the, of the border thing of him telling people not to go with the bipartisan plan. But that feels like a really, really terrible thing to do.

• 54:59Anthony Scaramucci?

  Well, that's a violation of the.

• 55:01Alastair Campbell?

  Am I overstating?

• 55:02Katty Kay?

  It's potentially illegal.

• 55:03Alastair Campbell?

  Oh.

• 55:04Anthony Scaramucci?

  No, no, it's a violation of the Logan Act. So, so listen, you know, there's, there's news reports now about 40 years ago, 44 years ago, to be exact, that there were back channel deals between the Reagan campaign and the Iranians. All of that has now been documented. And so it was a direct violation of the Logan Act. They've released the hostages on the day of his inauguration. And it was all done on the QT because it was a direct violation of the Logan Act. So I think what's weird about our society now, all of this stuff is happening out in the open. And so what, what Trump is doing is he's, you know, I think the rules have always been flouted, Alistair. I just think that they've been

• 55:46Anthony Scaramucci?

  quietly flouted as opposed to where we are now today, where they just, they just do it brazenly right out in the open. And remember, this is like a weird thing about the Trump administration. My attorney said to me, are you gonna go work for the Trump administration? I said, yes, it's a really stupid idea, but I did it. He said, you gotta sell everything. So I began the process of selling everything. Then I got my ass fired and then I stopped selling things, okay? But all these other guys, they never sold anything.

• 56:12Katty Kay?

  Including Trump.

• 56:13Anthony Scaramucci?

  And it was, it was included, well, Trump didn't have to. He's the only exclusion in the law, okay? Because they, they had to get Washington in the position and they, and Washington said, I'm not selling Mount Vernon. And so I said, okay, we're gonna make an exclusion for the president. So Trump didn't have to sell anything. But the ethics required that everybody else in the room had to sell things. None of them sold anything. And nobody went after them. Nobody went after them. Not the Department of Justice, not the Ethics Board. And so it's a weird time. Alistair, that is absolute wrong thing to do, but let me tell you something. It's an economic and political interest for Netanyahu not to cut that deal. Why not wait now? Because if he gets Trump, he's gonna get more out of Trump. He's, Biden is gone.

• 56:56Anthony Scaramucci?

  He has little to no relationship with Vice President Harris, although coincidentally, on the July 2018 trip, she did have a meeting with him. I don't know how many more meetings she's had subsequent to that. But I just think it's a terrible thing and I'm glad it was exposed. Will he deny it?

• 57:15Katty Kay?

  Netanyahu's office put out a statement in The Times of Israel and denied that this phone call has taken place. Journalists are now trying to ascertain whether that August 14th call did take place. The Logan Act, by the way, is a 1799 law which prohibits any unauthorized citizen from negotiating with a foreign power on behalf of the US government, which is why he could, if, if he did this, it would be in violation. So another, another crime, actually, potentially, that he could add to his long list of things that he has to.

• 57:46Anthony Scaramucci?

  But you know, you're not hiring Donald Trump to stay within the law, guys. You know, you, you know, at this point, he's gonna break the law. And you're hiring him for other reasons, but one of them is not to be a law abider.

• 57:58Katty Kay?

  We will talk tomorrow after Kamala Harris speaks here in Chicago at the DNC. I will force myself to stay awake that late, as we will. And so that's going to be a live stream that we're going to record on YouTube tomorrow night as soon as we can, after Kamala Harris has finished speaking. Look for it around midnight US time. It'll also go on the Trip US feed. So look for The Rest Is Politics US wherever you get your podcasts.

• 58:25Anthony Scaramucci?

  Alistair, on that podcast, which you won't be a part of, I will be praising you. I just want to make sure you know that. And only if it's justified, Anthony. Don't force it. I promise you, I will find some justification, faux or otherwise.

• 58:38Katty Kay?

  Alistair, it is always justified. Thank you, guys. Thanks for listening. We'll see you tomorrow.

• 58:59Speaker 11

  The Great Game: Strategic Struggle Between Britain and Russia.

• 59:06Speaker 12

  We assess, Prime Minister, with high confidence it was Russian.

• 59:12Speaker 13

  Holding the Russians accountable is World War III.

• 59:14Speaker 14

  They took down a British passenger jet containing 350 people.

• 59:17Speaker 11

  Man in the Kremlin is playing, Alex. Got to ask yourself, do you want to play or not? You're the Prime Minister. You've done nothing!

• 59:31Speaker 13

  We would need to understand the policy context.

• 59:33Speaker 11

  All the relevant context will be structured as a framework today and disseminated into an operation order, or FRAGO.

• 59:41Speaker 15

  A FRAGO that says to kill the President of Russia?

• 59:46Speaker 11

  Yes.

• 59:48Speaker 15

  New from Gullhangar. Who is going to be able to pull this off?

• 59:53Speaker 16

  You're my soldier, are you? Sergeant Tom McDuff, Duffy!

• 59:57Speaker 15

  An audio drama journey like no other.

• 59:59Speaker 16

  Men like Duffy, they are our most valuable weapons.

• 1:00:03Speaker 15

  Devized as a technically rigorous geopolitical action thriller. We have two tight friendly KIA. Where Britain plays its strongest hand. He's the best. Against its strongest foe.

• 1:00:15Speaker 15

  Bear Hunt. Available now wherever you get your podcasts.