The Banned Prince Documentary: Director Ezra Edelman Speaks (PTFO Vault)

America's best documentary filmmaker spent nearly five years making a nine-hour masterpiece for Netflix. Which you'll never see. Edelman sits down with Pablo in search of catharsis — if not closure — in the battle for truth and control over the life story of one of the biggest control freaks ever. (This episode originally aired March 4, 2025.) • Previously on PTFO: When Docs Cry https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Qi6x3QF-v8 • Subscribe to Pablo's newsletter for exclusive access, documents and invites https://pablo.show/ Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy https://acast.com/privacy for more information.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Pablo Torre?

  Welcome to Pablo Torre Finds Out. I am Pablo Torre and today, we're gonna find out what this sound is.

• 0:06Speaker 01

  I'm like, this is a gift. A nine-hour treatment about an artist that like, was, by the way, [bleep] brilliant. Everything about who you believe he is is in this movie. You get to bathe in his genius.

• 0:20Pablo Torre?

  Yeah.

• 0:20Speaker 01

  And yet, you also have to confront his humanity.

• 0:26Speaker 02

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• 0:58Pablo Torre?

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• 1:43Pablo Torre?

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• 2:06Speaker 01

  Are we starting now?

• 2:06Pablo Torre?

  Of course, of course. We're in it.

• 2:09Speaker 01

  And now, maybe I need a shot at the killer.

• 2:13Pablo Torre?

  Ezra Edelman, you want to explain why you're here?

• 2:15Speaker 01

  No. You can explain.

• 2:18Pablo Torre?

  I...

• 2:19Speaker 01

  Why am I here?

• 2:20Pablo Torre?

  Yeah.

• 2:22Speaker 01

  Why am I here?

• 2:22Pablo Torre?

  Well, there's a Variety headline that I just want to read.

• 2:27Speaker 01

  That's why I'm here?

• 2:29Pablo Torre?

  Quote, "Controversial Prince Netflix Documentary Will Not Be Released. Estate Is Free To Create New Project." This from February 6th, 2025.

• 2:39Speaker 01

  Oh, that's why I'm here, right?

• 2:41Pablo Torre?

  Yes.

• 2:41Speaker 01

  Um, yeah. Fun.

• 2:47Pablo Torre?

  So when Ezra and I sat down in our studio to record this episode, nobody had ever heard him talking about his controversial Prince Netflix documentary, as Variety put it, "into a microphone", which is also completely unsurprising to anybody who knows Ezra, because the guy who won the Best Documentary Oscar for "OJ Made in America" does not love talking in public in general. His whole thing is letting his work, his reporting, and all of its tonnage, speak for itself. And so the OJ doc, made for ESPN, was eight hours long, you may recall.

• 3:29Pablo Torre?

  It was so long, actually, and so unfairly good, that it inspired the Academy Awards themselves to ban multi-part series from the Best Documentary Oscar category altogether. And the book of Prince, which Ezra made for Netflix, was gonna be nine hours long. But this time, Ezra's work cannot speak for itself, because there is, I am told reliably, a 0.000 repeating percent chance that any of you out there will ever be allowed to watch it.

• 4:08Speaker 01

  The image I've had in my head is the last shot of Raiders of the Lost Ark, of just a huge warehouse somewhere in Netflix, a crate, just like put away.

• 4:22Pablo Torre?

  And yes, Hollywood is a graveyard of all sorts of passion projects, several of which, incidentally, we have loved chronicling here on PTFO in the past. But the story behind The Book of Prince does feel different to me. It feels different because Ezra, who turned 50 last year, devoted almost five years of his life to very quietly perfecting this film.

• 4:51Speaker 01

  So then you're caught in a space of like, this is weird. I've been working really hard and there's something that's really good, but no one even knows it exists.

• 4:58Pablo Torre?

  But then a story about this entire saga appeared on the cover of the New York Times Magazine last September. And the writer, who had been following the production process for a year and a half behind the scenes, declared it a, quote, "cursed masterpiece," end quote, citing the more than 70 interviews that Ezra had conducted. And so a month after that, with that seal broken now, you may recall that Pulitzer Prize winning critic Wesley Morris and I did an episode of this very show in which we described our own experiences seeing Ezra's movie at an early screening, ourselves, long before the documentary became, you know, The Lost Ark. And if you just want to know what's in the movie,

• 5:39Pablo Torre?

  I do recommend that you go watch that episode that Wesley and I did. But if you're like most other people in Ezra's life, here's just a fair warning. You're probably gonna have the same cursed reaction.

• 5:53Speaker 01

  Oh my God, this is like, when can I see this? Is this coming out? I'm like, motherfucker, like this isn't going away. And like, that was the life I've been living for the last six months. And I'm like, no, you can't see it. I don't feel like getting sued.

• 6:07Pablo Torre?

  Nor did the best documentarian in America feel like opening up about any of this across from me in front of a microphone in this studio. Until now.

• 6:19Speaker 01

  Like, what do you do with the experience of putting everything of yourself into something? And there's this sort of like pattern of addiction that comes from like taking on something big, taking on something bigger, working really hard, seeing if you can figure it out, then you get some sort of dopamine hit from the world, how they respond to it. So what do you do when you have all that, but it's five years? And it was the most painful thing and the most difficult thing.

• 6:45Pablo Torre?

  But you ultimately agreed to sit here across from me, your friend? And why? Why did you say yes in the end?

• 6:53Speaker 01

  It's somewhere between you're damned if you do, you're damned if you don't. Having dealt with the mishegoss that has come with the fighting to try to get the film out into the world, the way that the story has been framed in the world by certain people. And then ultimately now the finality of the news of, oh, the rights to this now are in the hands of the estate. But yes, maybe the whole saga has officially concluded and I lost.

• 7:31Speaker 01

  And this happens to be such a sort of extreme, high-profile episode in documentary filmmaking.

• 7:39Pablo Torre?

  Yes.

• 7:40Speaker 01

  That I'm like, okay, well, let's just get this out because I am after some catharsis, if not closure, to move the [bleep] on. I'm like, dude, just get over yourself and [bleep] get back to work.

• 7:53Pablo Torre?

  Right. You might have won a second Academy Award.

• 7:57Speaker 01

  No, I couldn't have. And no, I wouldn't have. And that was never the intention.

• 8:00Pablo Torre?

  I believe that this would have been worthy of-

• 8:02Speaker 01

  Pablo, if you followed the news, you should-

• 8:04Pablo Torre?

  I know, it's serialized, it's episodic. Instead, the point being, you made something worthy of-

• 8:09Speaker 01

  To you.

• 8:10Pablo Torre?

  To me.

• 8:10Speaker 01

  I don't, I don't know.

• 8:11Pablo Torre?

  Correct. Instead-

• 8:13Speaker 01

  Please don't make me tell you all the flaws that exist in the film, because I can do that too.

• 8:18Pablo Torre?

  But instead, what you got is the eighth stage of grief, which is podcasting.

• 8:25Speaker 01

  Is that the eighth?

• 8:26Pablo Torre?

  I believe so.

• 8:27Speaker 01

  Yeah, I think that's right. Correct. This is, this is my reward. This is my consolation prize, sitting across from you in your cardigan.

• 8:51Pablo Torre?

  I think people need to be caught up on what the [__] you spent that time doing. Like, what does it take to make something that leaves you feeling like this?

• 9:01Speaker 01

  There was a pretty consistent immersion in this that really did take this long. I mean, it's a little bit-

• 9:08Pablo Torre?

  A bit sadomasochistic?

• 9:09Speaker 01

  Yeah, but there's a sense of like, I like challenges. And, you know, if someone calls you up and says, hey, what do you think about Prince? We have his entire vault. That's never been accessed or seen. And then I'm like, I also know Prince is basically this mysterious figure. And I know that his story, in some ways, hasn't really ever been told.

• 9:35Pablo Torre?

  Here's the puzzle. And this is the puzzle solver that we're gonna pay to do this.

• 9:40Speaker 01

  There's a reason why Prince's story's never been told. Prince was not someone in life that was interested in sharing. And he cultivated an air of mystery. And he did it in a pretty impressively consistent, uh, domineering and ironclad way. He famously, if not notoriously, lived a life that was sort of marked by pretty dramatic sort of severing of relationships and separations. And by the way, there've been plenty of books written about Prince. But none have really connected the dots of his life to really sort of go, how did we get from a teenage virtuoso genius?

• 10:23Speaker 01

  Who was the youngest artist signed by Warner Brothers and given complete creative control? To a guy who died of a drug overdose?

• 10:34Speaker 01

  In an elevator in Paisley Park, in essence, died in a box within a box that he built himself, especially the guy who, in much of the public's consciousness, didn't do drugs.

• 10:46Speaker 03

  The medical examiner's report says Prince died from fentanyl toxicity, that it was self-administered, and his death was an accident. Fentanyl is an opioid pain medication, usually prescribed for chronic pain for patients who have grown tolerant to other pain medications. Doctors say it's 30 to 50 times more potent than heroin.

• 11:08Speaker 01

  Look, there's a responsibility and obligation to me as a filmmaker, as a documentarian, to answer the question, well, how did that happen?

• 11:16Pablo Torre?

  So is that the question that you set out to craft this map to answer?

• 11:22Speaker 01

  I was trying to answer a question of someone who, he is an artist that has really helped people go through the world feeling seen themselves.

• 11:32Pablo Torre?

  Yes.

• 11:33Speaker 01

  His androgyny and his sort of being able to tap into his female side, his racial sort of ambiguity at times, and his message that sort of comes from being, let's just say, open to all things. By nature of him being five foot two, he's like, he looks like the underdog. And he is this sort of like pixie fairy, purple genius. But like, the guy never stopped working and really worked in service of the fans. So he lived it as a mystery and he died as a mystery. But like, the guy, he was a shapeshifter. And so he morphed, he changed lives. And so the guy who became a Jehovah's Witness in, you know, the early aughts and, you know, all of a sudden was like, under the guidance

• 12:15Speaker 01

  of Larry Graham, that's a different dude than the dude who did the Dirty Mind album in 1980 and was singing about, you know, head.

• 12:29Speaker 01

  That's also part of his evolution. And so in a lot of ways, because there's so many eras, I think there's a lot of people who like, love different parts of Prince. But I was really interested in trying to like, find a through line for that person who evolved through all these styles, why he did, what was going on underneath, and trying to sort of find a roadmap, and trying to shed light on who this person was.

• 12:52Pablo Torre?

  Once you realize the degree of difficulty here, I want to get to your decision then, to not just roll up your sleeves, but to spend almost five years digging.

• 13:07Speaker 01

  It's just more like, no one knows who this dude was. I'm gonna try to figure it out. I'm not professing to know everything that happened with this person. It's the best I could do. This isn't, by the way, like R. Kelly. And like, it's like, we already know what he's guilty of. And you're just like, exposing sort of really horrid truths and that people need to know, because this guy's got to go down. This isn't that. But people sort of were defensive in terms of like, as if he were that. The relationship to how much people love Prince. And it's like, so who wants this? Like, who wants sort

• 13:46Speaker 01

  of a microscopic, you know, sort of accounting of someone's life, when some of it is going to be a little, a little scummy at times. But the whole point of it is the journey. And the whole point of it was actually reflecting a journey that he went through. Prince's whole thing was that he's a Gemini. And so this sort of push-pull of who he was, in all these facets, male, female, black, white, artist, businessman, it goes on and on. In terms of this binary, in his head was this idea of like, good and evil. Which, sorry, God and sex. And that was another basic dichotomy of his art. And he's always sort of weighing his own moral account of how he was going through the world. And he believed

• 14:31Speaker 01

  in karma, in terms of like, how he treated people. And I think one of the things that was fascinating is that Prince had a baby with his wife, Maite Garcia.

• 14:41Speaker 04

  Maite was pregnant, there was something wrong. She claims Prince declined medical intervention.

• 14:47Speaker 05

  The faith that he had, it just made me believe that everything was gonna be okay.

• 14:53Speaker 01

  Who tragically was born with Pfeiffer syndrome. And they made the decision to take the baby up a respirator after eight days. There's multiple people who told me that based on Prince's brain, he basically almost felt that he was being punished for his sins. People had issues with how he treated people. He was emotionally abusive. He was physically abusive, you know, in very specific, I'll say for how it was reported, one instance. The point is like, this all weighed on him. And so this sort of dramatic life event, he thought partially he was responsible. But like the way that certain people, maybe the estate is characterizing sort of, oh, the film's bad, or the film's this, it's negative, or it has...

• 15:36Pablo Torre?

  Well, allow me to...

• 15:37Speaker 01

  I'm like, it's, there's a point.

• 15:39Pablo Torre?

  Well, allow me to quote, just for the record here, what the estate said in that Variety article. Because the line from the article says that representatives for the late artist's estate previously claimed a first cut of the film was filled with, quote, "dramatic factual inaccuracies" and, quote, "sensationalized renderings of certain events from his life, according to sources close to the situation."

• 16:03Speaker 01

  I mean, whatever, it's a joke. I mean, the whole idea is like, wait, so the estate had, here's the one thing they're allowed to do, check the film for factual inaccuracies. Guess what? They came back with a 17-page document full of editorial issues, not factual issues. You think I have any interest in putting out a film that is factually inaccurate?

• 16:21Pablo Torre?

  It is a question of who gets to claim that they have what feels like editorial authority, or less, less highfalutin. Who has the truth on their side?

• 16:34Speaker 01

  Well, that, it's more like who has control.

• 16:38Speaker 01

  I mean, again, this is reflective of Prince himself, who was notoriously most famous control freaks in the history of artists. The irony being that Prince was somebody who fought for artistic freedom, who didn't want to be held down by Warner Brothers, who he believed was stifling sort of his output. And now in this case, it's like, by the way, I'm not Prince, but like, I worked really hard making something and now my art's being stifled and thrown away.

• 17:05Pablo Torre?

  But the underlying tension here is, what does it mean when one of the greatest and most influential and significant Americans in pop cultural history is being cast as their estate would have it, as the victim of a documentarian, posthumously, a posthumous victim of a story that is being told for the benefit of said director?

• 17:34Speaker 01

  How old are you, Pablo?

• 17:35Pablo Torre?

  I am 39.

• 17:36Speaker 01

  What was your relationship to Prince before you saw this movie?

• 17:40Pablo Torre?

  Extraordinarily minimal. He was represented in cartoons. He was the guy performing with slave written on his cheek. He was a symbol, the artist formerly known as.

• 17:50Speaker 01

  Were you a fan?

• 17:51Pablo Torre?

  I wouldn't self identify as a fan, but certainly I knew that this guy is really good at what he does.

• 17:58Speaker 01

  What was your relationship to Prince after having seen this movie?

• 18:02Pablo Torre?

  My main sensation watching it was, this is one of the most impressive artists that has ever lived.

• 18:09Speaker 01

  This is the thing I just find galling. I mean, I can't get past this of like, the shortsightedness of a group of people whose interest is their own bottom line. They're afraid of his humanity. The lawyer who runs this state essentially said he believed that this would do generational harm to Prince. In essence, that the portrayal of Prince in this film, what people learn about him would deter younger viewers and fans potentially from loving Prince. They would be turned off. This is, I think, the big issue here. I'm like, This is a gift. A nine-hour treatment about an artist that like was, by the way,

• 18:54Speaker 01

  [bleep] brilliant. Everything about who you believe he is is in this movie. You get to bathe in his genius.

• 19:00Pablo Torre?

  Yeah.

• 19:01Speaker 01

  And yet you also have to confront his humanity, which he, by the way, in some ways was trapped in not being able to expose because he got trapped in his own myth about who he was to the world. And he like had to maintain it.

• 19:22Pablo Torre?

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• 19:55Speaker 06

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• 20:09Speaker 07

  Everybody, listen up.

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• 20:33Speaker 01

  Can I read something to you?

• 20:35Pablo Torre?

  I was wondering why your phone is out.

• 20:36Speaker 01

  Jill Jones, who was a prince protege, a muse, who spent essentially the 80s with him and was someone who was a girlfriend of princes, was in the film and to me, one of the most truthful voices in the film and was someone who discussed in detail an instance where she was.

• 20:59Speaker 01

  Abused by Prince physically. And by the way, that's not the totality of the story of her with Prince, but like you still see how much she loves him, even though she went through an experience with him. That was hard, like a decade of her life, wanting more, wanting to be an artist that was, got to do her own album, wanting to be his exclusive girlfriend or the girlfriend when she always was sort of like, not that. It was almost someone, again, when you talk about what it means to be a kept woman, or she even, you know, she refers to him as like, a pimp in the movie. And like, by the way, this is one side. But this is what she wrote after the news came out about the film being canceled.

• 21:41Speaker 01

  "Prince was a man who lived under the weight of expectation, both his own and those of the world that adored him. He built a persona so larger than life that it became a prison, a gilded cage, one he could never fully step out of. Prince's struggle with drug addiction was deeply intertwined with his relentless pursuit of perfection, an impossible standard he imposed on himself to satisfy a fanbase that craved his mystique, his eccentricity, and his ever-evolving artistry. At his core, he was a consummate people pleaser, trapped in the expectation to remain an enigma, always surprising, always beyond reach. The tragedy lies in the fact that so many refuse to acknowledge the truth of who he really was. He understood this better than anyone.

• 22:23Speaker 01

  He knew that revealing his true self, stripped of the carefully crafted persona, would lead to rejection. And in a way, he was right. The recent choices made by Netflix and his estate only reinforce this truth. The world is unwilling to accept Prince as a man, only as a myth. Without the elaborate stagecraft, without the veil of mystery, his raw humanity is deemed insufficient. His struggles, his journey, his sacrifices, all the elements that shaped him will remain obscured. Instead, the world will likely receive a sanitized, polished version of Prince, a carefully curated illusion that erases the depth of his reality."

• 23:02Pablo Torre?

  Yeah, I should have interviewed her.

• 23:04Speaker 01

  Yeah, you should have. But I mean, this is-

• 23:07Pablo Torre?

  But I wanna, I wanna address what she's saying there, which is an argument on behalf of not merely this film coming out, but of how we should approach people with the aforementioned significance that is both cultural and also profound. How do we tell the story that same idol does not want to be told about themselves? With OJ Simpson and with Prince, it's been, here is the best attempt that I have, I Ezra Edelman, at cracking a safe. How have those two safes, OJ and Prince, for people who will never see the Prince film, how are they different?

• 23:50Speaker 01

  I don't think these are similar exercises. OJ, by dint of what he had gone through, had been one of the more picked over Americans in our recent cultural history. So like, I didn't expect there to be that much revelatory intimately that I was going to find about OJ that hasn't already in some ways been reported on. I was more interested in taking a larger view of a story that sort of ended up being so fixated around, you know, a year period and a night and what happened and all this stuff that I didn't frankly care about, to understand the greater sort of sociological, historical context that led us to this moment

• 24:35Speaker 01

  and why everyone sort of lost their minds in this the way they did.

• 24:39Pablo Torre?

  I wanna point out, by the way, that when OJ died, I, I think bothered you more than I ever have in my life.

• 24:47Speaker 01

  Yeah, so did a lot of people.

• 24:49Pablo Torre?

  You did zero interviews.

• 24:50Speaker 01

  Like, I already did it. In my mind, so the other thing is, this is, by the way, this is the first time I ever thought about this, is I guess I'm a little like Prince in that way. I just wanna move on.

• 24:59Pablo Torre?

  Yeah.

• 25:00Speaker 01

  So, yeah, I'm not interested in being a person who gets on TV and all of a sudden like adds my two cents about OJ. I don't care.

• 25:08Pablo Torre?

  But with Prince, it felt like you were drilling into something as opposed to zooming out.

• 25:12Speaker 01

  That's correct. I had this conversation with a couple of people saw the film and they thought it was gonna be more like OJ. They thought it was gonna be what Prince means to people and all this stuff. And I'm like, no, this is about this person who no one ever knew about. I was after the truth about this person's existence, some of which, by the way, is his effect on others in terms of him as an artist and his popularity. But a lot of it was trying to be ironically told from his perspective of what he was doing and his own thrust going through his life.

• 25:44Pablo Torre?

  I also want to establish that there are lots of films, lots of documentaries categorized as such, in which access is integral to the task at hand, and they can be excellent.

• 25:54Speaker 01

  And they also could be fraught with issues.

• 25:57Pablo Torre?

  And you are taking an approach that is deliberately different. And now I just wonder if it also feels like it's endangered. Because the question of who wants this is a good one.

• 26:10Speaker 01

  I do believe a lot of people want this. Look, I've gone through the journey with however few people have seen this movie. It's in six chapters, and their relationship to who Prince is like changes throughout the course of it. But by the end of it, you know, everyone loves him or everyone's more curious about him and his music than, for instance, before, even if they didn't know anything about him.

• 26:33Pablo Torre?

  It's what the estate to me has always gotten backwards, which is that we live in a time at which it's harder than ever to cancel quote unquote, somebody. And this is not a film that your takeaway ends up being, as a viewer, get this guy the [__] out of here.

• 26:50Speaker 01

  No, it's like the problem is, it's kind of what Jill said. It's like, man, he struggled so much. He was so like insecure and he was had so many, so much trauma. And his unwillingness and his insecurity prevented him from being open about said trauma. Because he had to present himself as this, you know, perfect genius. And his inability to share his truth. You know, was one of the reasons why he suffered his addiction in silence. And you would argue that but for the way he was, other people in his position might have been more able to get help. And I think that's one of the tragedies about his story. But it's connected to who he always was. He created a mystery. He obfuscated the truth of who he was to become famous as an artist.

• 27:34Speaker 01

  And then we were complicit in how we absorbed said artist and we loved it. But then you get trapped in that. You keep having to change. You keep having to evolve, but your true self is always hidden. And so when the true self is then laid bare, you know, having died of an overdose, it's like, what do you do with that? That can't be hidden. That's stark. That's the truth.

• 27:57Pablo Torre?

  There is a thing on Prince's Twitter account that the estate seems to have posted when that variety story came out. And it was kind of like a mini trailer for a forthcoming other project that is deliberately not the Ezra Edelman project. But the quote from Prince, posthumously, is, despite everything, no one can dictate who you are to other people.

• 28:21Speaker 01

  Right, by the way, I don't disagree with that.

• 28:23Pablo Torre?

  But I think the question we are left with as a media industry is, what are we trying to do when it comes to people who don't want their own story told?

• 28:38Speaker 01

  Right now, we live in a culture and in a documentary universe, and in some ways in a journalistic universe, where the subject gets to dictate who they are to everybody.

• 28:50Pablo Torre?

  Correct.

• 28:51Speaker 01

  And that is not the way that the Fourth Estate was set up. So my issue is that in trading for access, you now have a lot of companies and filmmakers making deals with the subject sanitizing their story and/or their image that to be, it's like, of course, it serves them. You don't have to put in what you don't want put in. But it is truthful.

• 29:12Pablo Torre?

  But that editorial power of decision making, what deserves to be in what feels like An authoritative treatment of someone's story. Why should it be you?

• 29:23Speaker 01

  Well, I'm not saying it should be me. I'm just saying because I take the responsibility seriously and I try very hard. And I have integrity as a person, as a filmmaker. I'm not here, by the way, to give you, like, to prove why I should be worthy of doing anything. I think the exercise is very hard. I think the danger and the problem I'm finding is that what's the compromise? Of course, there are movies being made with subjects that like have some say in how the story is told or are getting paid for the access, which to me is a no-no. And gets to be a producer of their own story. And what happens that these streamers or whoever the distributors are, they get a film about whomever, you know?

• 30:05Pablo Torre?

  Oh, the incentives align.

• 30:08Speaker 01

  Right, so no, and by the way, and at this point, the public doesn't seem to, somewhere between care or know the difference. And that's the, that's the sad thing. It's like this, they're being, they're being served slop and they're getting used to the fact that this is like, oh, I guess this is like, like, short ribs. And I'm like, it's not, it's slop. And I think that's the bigger issue. This film about Prince, to me, it's a full meal. And it's not something you can just like tear through. It's tough at times.

• 30:39Pablo Torre?

  It's not meant to be clipped. It's not meant for the algorithm.

• 30:44Speaker 01

  Well, it's in the sum, it's greater than its parts. That's the point. There is hopefully an experience you've gone through. By the way, I'm talking about this as if anybody's gonna see it, they won't. So it's like, it's amazing now.

• 30:55Pablo Torre?

  What does it feel like to catch yourself doing that, though?

• 30:59Speaker 01

  I mean, because it's still, but that's, you know, we've talked about this. It's the tree falling in the forest thing. It's like, it still exists.

• 31:05Pablo Torre?

  But look, part of the whole thing with Prince, right, is that his genius was validated over and over again by his output. And you are somebody in a very different way, whose swings are so big recently, that when no one gets to see it.

• 31:24Speaker 01

  It's an indescribable feeling, that one I've been wrestling with and dealing with for a while. I mean, like, I don't want to make this, like, you know this, the reason I don't want to do this, because I don't, this is not like woe is me. It's like, people's films get shelved all the time.

• 31:41Pablo Torre?

  All the time.

• 31:41Speaker 01

  And like, there have been examples of this in the feature space and in documentary space. There's no guarantee of anything. Ever. This is just unique because of the subject, the time, the high-profile nature, all of these things, the public interest in some ways.

• 31:56Pablo Torre?

  But the genre in which a documentarian is holding to account a celebrity in service of what feels like the public interest.

• 32:07Speaker 01

  But yet, the way you just described that, or holding our public figures to account, I'm like, I wasn't making a film about Richard Nixon after Watergate. I was telling someone's story. And it's more like, once you see certain things, you can't unsee them. There are things I might be interested as topics to pursue, that those come from me. But when someone tells me about a harrowing incident that she experienced, here are my two choices. Oh, why did this happen? Was this something consistent within this man's behavior? Can I contextualize what that meant to him in his head? Where did this come from? Or I can just be like, oh, that's, they're not gonna like that. That might change people's

• 32:49Speaker 01

  image of Prince, so I better not put that in. Those are my choices. And then I am committing documentary malpractice.

• 32:58Pablo Torre?

  I should point out that the Variety story does have a quote from Netflix, which says that "The Prince estate and Netflix have come to a mutual agreement that will allow the estate to develop and produce a new documentary featuring exclusive content from Prince's archive. As a result, the Netflix documentary will not be released."

• 33:15Speaker 01

  I read something, there was some article that had, I think it was The Times, London, and said, like, "Some fans are happy with the decision because they believe that this film would have been an invasion of his privacy." And I'm like, okay, and? Of course it's an invasion of his privacy. Like, I don't know what to do with that argument. That's not an argument.

• 33:37Pablo Torre?

  But isn't that the fundamental disconnect when it comes to...

• 33:41Speaker 01

  He's a public figure.

• 33:42Pablo Torre?

  But what that means, right? What it means...

• 33:45Speaker 01

  He's a public figure. I don't understand, like, what's the, like, he's an historical and historically important subject. He's one of the great artists of the last hundred years. We need to understand who these people are, how they made their art, what drove them, how they lived, how they died. It's part of how we go through the world and improve as humans. How we, it's like, what are we talking about here?

• 34:19Speaker 03

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• 34:56Pablo Torre?

  There are Richard Nixons, and then there are our favorite musicians. The people who bring us comfort because they're in the toy department of music or sports as opposed to what legislation did Prince pass?

• 35:13Speaker 01

  Woody Allen, Picasso, Michael Jackson, all of these people, R. Kelly. I think it's up to everyone's personal code about how they choose to be affected by the understanding of who that person was and their ability to still revel in and enjoy said person's art. For me, and I'm just like, I'm not even gonna like go deep with this, but like, I think it'd be a little weird if like, when you know what R. Kelly was doing and what he's singing about, it's a little like, I can't do this. It's just like, it's like right in front of me. That's a little different for me than Michael Jackson, which I'm not like, again, I'm not, I'm not talking in any way on a moral level.

• 35:55Speaker 01

  But like, I can listen to Michael Jackson's music and have an under certain understanding about, and yet I could also go to the Michael Jackson Broadway show. And by the way, the estate's working on a Broadway show about Purple Rain. And like, everyone's seen Purple Rain, and this is a movie that while Prince didn't officially get a screenplay credit and write it, it's a fictionalized but sort of veiled fictionalized story of Prince's life.

• 36:34Speaker 01

  And in it, Morris Day throws a woman into a dumpster and he slaps Apollonia. Who Prince is in that movie, you know, in some ways is revealed, though it was always couch disfiction. And now they're doing this adaptation of Purple Rain for Broadway. And from my understanding, it's like they're changing Prince's character to make it more palatable or to at least tidy up the gender politics. And I think that's literally a phrase I read in the New Yorker piece about the playwright, about who the character is, to ostensibly make it more palatable for an audience in 2025. This is exactly my issue. The guy made a movie that's about himself. And by the way, warts and all in many ways, he could always hide behind the fact that

• 37:18Speaker 01

  it was, quote, fiction, but it wasn't fiction. And in our film, by the way, we use that to basically sort of play with the truthiness of his existence. There's so much in that that is real. And now the fact that we've arrived 40 years later, and rather than just like, oh, it's the 40th anniversary of Purple Rain, which was last year, and celebrating that, no, we're going to revisit it and revamp it and sanitize it and in turn sanitize Prince's image for current audiences, for younger audiences, to make him a less troubling figure. That is [__] up. I'm sorry.

• 37:55Pablo Torre?

  Removing the complexity from a deliberately complicated person.

• 38:02Speaker 01

  I mean, it's not surprising. It's Broadway. But like, again, this is what we're dealing with. I don't think my documentary stood much of a chance if this is what's happening. It's just sad.

• 38:13Pablo Torre?

  That seems like an exercise that can make someone not want to try and take a swing like this again.

• 38:21Speaker 01

  Well, I mean, again, it was a 10th of my life. If you look at it that way.

• 38:24Pablo Torre?

  I hadn't until now.

• 38:25Speaker 01

  Like, why, why would I? I think probably affects you differently physically, mentally, when you get older and like it affected me. So like, I don't think I need to do that anymore.

• 38:36Pablo Torre?

  But the reason I say that is because the reason that you deserve to have swings like this, the reason you deserve to take these swings, the reason you deserve to have this editorial authority in which I want that guy trying to crack this safe. I want that guy making the decisions is because what the media broadly speaking, what journalists really need more than ever are people who take that task so seriously that it makes them unhappy. Because we're gonna test it, right? We're gonna, we're gonna throw estates at that. We're gonna throw cease and desist letters at that. We're gonna throw the business, the money at other people.

• 39:21Pablo Torre?

  If it's this painful, it tells me I want that guy to try.

• 39:27Speaker 01

  But I also, it is that painful. Look, here's the thing. I'm sitting here doing your podcast, but like, you know, Caroline Waterlow, Tamara Rosenberg, Dana Kristic, Brett Granato, Gabe Rhodes, Ben Zaninski.

• 39:39Pablo Torre?

  People who made the film with you.

• 39:40Speaker 01

  Marlee Kogan, Dan and Hinton, you know, Jenny Troyer, Deja Lee Carroll. They made the film. They were also putting themselves on the line and investing so much in themselves to make this thing. As a PA or, you know, an archival assistant, or as a producer, or as an editor. And the way you go through the world is to amass credits. People see what you do and they go, oh, wow, that was really good. You worked on that? And right now, this doesn't exist in the world. It's a big zero. It's a negative space. I mean, why can't there be, as Brett Granato, one of my editors, said, be nice if there were something on IMDb that said, The Book of Prince, unreleased, and then the people who worked on it?

• 40:25Pablo Torre?

  Yeah. And, and I don't think it is changing anytime soon.

• 40:29Speaker 01

  No, I think the problem is this is a runaway train. Or has it already hit us? And we don't know it.

• 40:35Pablo Torre?

  Well, that's the most depressing thought in a very depressing series of thoughts that have been uttered.

• 40:40Speaker 01

  Okay. Do you feel right now, though, that like, one of the things I love about you is your, your earnest ambition to create a podcast that is trying to find out, to tell the truth, to be journalistically rigorous. And you have found an audience for that. And so I think you should feel good about that.

• 40:59Pablo Torre?

  The whole trick of what you do, what I do, and anybody who wants to do this thing that is not being incentivized by the algorithm. The whole trick of it is, hey, guess what? It's surprising how many people want this delicious piece of broccoli with cheese melted on it.

• 41:16Speaker 01

  I agree. Right. It's, it's still entertaining. It's still tasty.

• 41:20Pablo Torre?

  That is what I want people to remember when they are deciding whether, whether this is just vegetables. Whether this is the thing that people did not ask for, but they got because some guy feels like morally scolding them into caring about journalism. The whole point is that it can still be entertainment if you do it right.

• 41:44Speaker 01

  And that gets back to the general breakdown that's always been between like, there are documentaries and there's a Hollywood movie. And so in essence, that's what we're talking about here. There's a Hollywood movie, which is a play on Broadway.

• 41:55Pablo Torre?

  Yes, inspired by true events.

• 41:57Speaker 01

  And so the issue is that now the estate is going to put out its own documentary, but that's not a documentary.

• 42:03Pablo Torre?

  By definition.

• 42:04Speaker 01

  By definition, it's going to be a hate geographic, like propaganda, love letter to Prince the artist. Are you going to learn anything about Prince? I doubt it. Are you going to learn anything dark about Prince? I doubt it. Are you going to learn anything complicating about Prince? I doubt it.

• 42:17Pablo Torre?

  The troubling thing, of course, is that it may very well be wildly popular.

• 42:22Speaker 01

  Oh, it will be wildly popular. You know why? Because people want to see Prince and deservedly so. The guy was one of the great entertainers, performers, musicians of all time. And that's what's really sad. You know, like you see him perform in our film, you're like, I mean, I cried watching him. You know, in his 1982 performance, like during the controversy tour when he was singing When We Were Mine.

• 42:53Speaker 01

  He is a magnetic performer.

• 42:56Pablo Torre?

  There are scenes in your film that feel like great scenes in sports movies, where the music is a payoff because you went through the journey of pain and suffering. And you do tear up and you are in awe, as you would be with a great athlete. The difference here is that that pain and that suffering really only pays off if you actually depict the pain and the suffering.

• 43:28Pablo Torre?

  Man, I wish someone made a movie that had all that stuff in it.

• 43:31Speaker 01

  Yeah, well, well.

• 43:38Speaker 01

  It's been fun talking to you, Pop.

• 43:40Pablo Torre?

  Welp.

• 43:41Speaker 01

  In some ways, that's like, what are you gonna do? Welp. I mean, at a certain point, well, I don't know.

• 43:46Pablo Torre?

  Welp.

• 43:47Speaker 01

  Welp.

• 44:02Pablo Torre?

  So what I'm left thinking at the end here, what I want to find out is now with the benefit of hindsight, would you do this over again?

• 44:09Speaker 01

  And have it turned out the same way?

• 44:12Pablo Torre?

  Yeah.

• 44:13Speaker 01

  No, absolutely not. For what's happened? No. Would I have done anything differently in the process that led to this result? No. I feel like I honestly, earnestly,

• 44:32Speaker 01

  tried my hardest to make the best film and reacted to the circumstances I was presented with as truthfully and honestly to who I am and my belief system as possible. And at no point did I ever think it was okay if this were going to be the result. So it wasn't like, well, I'm gonna do this and if this was happens, I'm gonna live with it. It's just more like in the same way, you just like you make the choices that are in front of you based on who you are. And I think based on the circumstances I was presented with at every point, I did what I believed to be the correct thing. And that I'll live with. There's nothing about this that I won't get over, though.

• 45:18Speaker 01

  It's just not really possible. So I actually,

• 45:24Speaker 01

  in a way that

• 45:27Speaker 01

  won't surprise you, but I mean, it's, it's like, when you end up with circumstances that are sort of so dramatic and so in sort of an unforeseen way, the basic need for vengeance and the basic desire to channel your anger, I have had those impulses and things, but I'm like, this is, it, this happened. It's like if I allow this thing to consume me and eat me up from the inside in a way, then that's kind of on me. So I've had to figure out a way to get sort of beyond those feelings because I can't win that. I lose. So why it happened? I don't know. And I just feel like I comported myself correctly throughout the entire exercise. That's the only thing I can control.

• 46:13Pablo Torre?

  I think I have good news for you at the end here.

• 46:15Speaker 01

  What?

• 46:16Pablo Torre?

  I just found out what closure sounds like for Ezra Rattleman.

• 46:21Speaker 01

  Anything for you, Pablo.

• 46:32Pablo Torre?

  This has been Pablo Torre Finds Out, a Meadowlark Media production.

• 46:38Pablo Torre?

  And I'll talk to you next time.

• 46:58Speaker 03

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