Jeremy Allen White

Don't be fooled into thinking Jeremy Allen White's is an overnight success story. He's been putting in the work for years and now he's reaping the rewards. He joins Josh to chat about his career from SHAMELESS and THE BEAR to playing the boss himself, Bruce Springsteen. UPCOMING EVENTS Brendan Fraser 11/18 in NYC -- ⁠⁠⁠Tickets here⁠⁠⁠ Check out the ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Happy Sad Confused patreon here⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠! We've got discount codes to live events, merch, early access, exclusive episodes, video versions of the podcast, and more! Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:01Speaker 00

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• 0:29Speaker 01

  I've reached some kind of other level after I've had two kids. Yes. After my life has gotten very big and my concerns have changed and what matters to me really has changed. And so I feel very lucky in a lot of ways that, you know, my life feels a lot bigger than this. And I have to imagine those younger actors, performers, artists, whatever, who hit it really big at 16, 17, 18, 19. I have to imagine it. It's got to be very confusing and difficult, you know?

• 1:00Speaker 02

  Prepare your ears, humans. Happy, Sad, Confused begins now.

• 1:07Josh Horowitz?

  Hey guys, it's Josh. Welcome to another edition of Happy, Sad, Confused. Today on the show, another first time guest and a hell of an actor, Jeremy Allen White, talking Bruce Springsteen, The Bear, Star Wars, and so much more. Hey guys, thanks as always for tuning into Happy, Sad, Confused. Watching, listening, however you're consuming this, I appreciate you guys. You can hear Lucy or C. Lucy snoring a little bit behind me, so I'll keep it a little quiet. But this is a really cool one. Jeremy's been on the list for quite a while, as you might imagine, from Shameless, especially in The Bear coming into his own as an actor. And now taking his talents to the big screen

• 1:52Josh Horowitz?

  with some really cool opportunities. Really sweet guy. I think you guys are going to enjoy this conversation. And he absolutely kills it, as Bruce Springsteen. Talk about a high degree of difficulty and he really, really delivers. Before we get to all of that, some reminders. We do have some live events coming up I want to tease. And as always, you can check out all of our stuff on Patreon. And by the way, we are just like, we are jamming with so many episodes. Three a week right now. It's not going to last forever. I'd kind of like to go back to two, even one a week for my sanity at some point. But right now... Just an embarrassment of riches. So patreon.com/happysecondfused now more than ever really is delivering because you're getting so much content, early access,

• 2:39Josh Horowitz?

  the early word on upcoming guests and access to our live events, including November 18th Brendan Fraser. Brendan has never done the podcast. I know, I'm shocked too. We came close on the whale, the timing just never quite clicked and now it's finally happening and I'm so excited. November 18th, 92nd Street Y, we are screening his excellent new movie. It is called Rental Family. Very sweet movie. He delivers another fantastic performance and speaking of sweet, he is notoriously one of the nicest guys in the business. So I'm so excited to have a big old career chat with Brendan. So come on out if you can. As I said,

• 3:20Josh Horowitz?

  discount codes are on the Patreon, patreon.com/happysecondfused or the link is in the the show notes just to get tickets like a, like a normal human being. Okay, Jeremy Allen White, let's talk for a second before we toss to the main event.

• 3:36Josh Horowitz?

  He is starring as Bruce Springsteen in this new film, Springsteen Delivered Me From Nowhere. I'm a big fan of this movie. This is not your standard issue biopic. This is a character study, a look at a guy kind of at a really interesting juncture in his career. This is not Bruce, you know, onstage commanding, you know, the attention of tens of thousands of people. There's a glimpse of that, but it's really about a guy

• 4:07Josh Horowitz?

  wrestling with his childhood, his past, his, his issues with his parents in particular, his dad, but also figuring out what's next artistically. This really interesting point in his career. This is about really kind of the making of Nebraska, one of his seminal albums, if not the seminal work in his career. And like I said, big fan of this and Jeremy.

• 4:31Josh Horowitz?

  I mean, what can you say? The singing, the physicality, and just the lived-in performance. No surprise he delivers, because if you've seen him do his thing on the bear, and shameless in so many other things, you know he's got the goods. And I think you're gonna, you're gonna fall in love with him in this conversation, if you haven't already, because just the real deal. Another sweetheart of a guy. I really enjoyed getting a chance to finally have this long-in-the-making conversation. So, without any further ado, enjoy my chat. And go see the movie. It's out in theaters Friday. I think by the time you're watching or listening to this, it should be out in theaters. See it, it's a really special one. Here's me and Jeremy Allen White. My look, it's Jeremy Allen White.

• 5:15Speaker 01

  Hey, how's it going, man?

• 5:16Josh Horowitz?

  It's good to see you, buddy.

• 5:17Speaker 01

  It's good to see you, too.

• 5:18Josh Horowitz?

  Appreciate the Yankee hat, I'm a big Yankee fan, so.

• 5:20Speaker 01

  Are you a big Yankees fan?

• 5:21Josh Horowitz?

  Born and bred New Yorker, Yankee fan through and through, you?

• 5:24Speaker 01

  This is funny, I'm a Mets fan, and this hat has a little story, it's.

• 5:28Josh Horowitz?

  Looks like it's been through something.

• 5:29Speaker 01

  Well, this has been through something. So, I have a Mets hat that's been through hell, and I wore it at Telluride. I've had it for a long time, I wear it all the time. And I saw Bruce a couple days after Telluride here in New York. And he said, "I saw your hat, it was pretty beat up, reminded me of this hat."

• 5:47Josh Horowitz?

  Come on.

• 5:48Speaker 01

  And he's had this hat for like 25, 30 years, and he gave it to me. So I've been carrying it around like a little good luck charm.

• 5:55Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah, the ancillary benefits of this one.

• 5:57Speaker 01

  I know.

• 5:58Josh Horowitz?

  Insane.

• 5:58Speaker 01

  They keep coming.

• 5:59Josh Horowitz?

  Okay, before we get into Springsteen, you've been on the list for a while. I've been chasing you, so thank you for finally succumbing to my request.

• 6:05Speaker 01

  Oh my gosh, yeah, I'm happy to be here, I've listened to the show, I really like it.

• 6:08Josh Horowitz?

  I appreciate you, man. I also feel like I've been circling you this week, I've run into Chris Stor twice this week.

• 6:13Speaker 01

  Oh nice, yeah.

• 6:13Josh Horowitz?

  I hit up Austin, I wanted the dirt.

• 6:16Speaker 01

  Nice.

• 6:16Josh Horowitz?

  And everybody gives me nothing, they're all like, Jeremy's the nicest man on the planet.

• 6:20Speaker 01

  Oh man, yeah, they didn't give you anything, huh?

• 6:22Josh Horowitz?

  Literally.

• 6:22Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 6:23Josh Horowitz?

  So, I'm out of luck.

• 6:25Speaker 01

  Yeah, sorry.

• 6:27Josh Horowitz?

  Is there anyone, am I hitting up the wrong people? Would anybody say you're an asshole?

• 6:29Speaker 01

  I was gonna say something. I mean, you could talk to Ebb and I'm sure he'd give you something.

• 6:33Josh Horowitz?

  He's seen the dark side?

• 6:34Speaker 01

  Yeah, for sure.

• 6:35Josh Horowitz?

  Do you get cranky on a set? Like, do you, like, does...

• 6:38Speaker 01

  No, no, I don't, no. I mean, I'm trying to think what is upsetting to me on a set.

• 6:44Josh Horowitz?

  What's pet peeves?

• 6:45Speaker 01

  I mean, it's like, you know, it's just simple stuff, like being on time and knowing you're... You know, all that stuff. But even still, like, um, no, I don't think I've ever, like, lost, uh, lost my cool on a set or anything.

• 6:58Josh Horowitz?

  Can I, can I ask you a little bit about Austin for a second? Just because I'm curious, because you guys are basically the same age.

• 7:03Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 7:03Josh Horowitz?

  And you just shot together relatively recently.

• 7:05Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 7:05Josh Horowitz?

  That must be an interesting thing, because it strikes me also, you've both gone through this kind of transition in your careers. A somewhat similar one in the last five years.

• 7:14Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 7:15Josh Horowitz?

  Is that something you guys talked about and kind of clocked?

• 7:17Speaker 01

  Yeah, almost immediately, you know. Austin and I had, had met briefly, kind of prior to doing this movie together. And we've, I've been an admirer of his for a while and, and, and I think, you know, I hope to think vice versa. And we almost did this job together and it didn't work out. So we were really excited to do this one and, and we got to talking kind of immediately about this sort of like work-life balance. And I was asking about his process with Elvis, because I had just finished Springsteen. And, and he was talking about how much he gave to it. And, and I was kind of like, can you, you know, can you do that every time? You know, and, and so I was like, because I'm struggling too with like, how, you know,

• 8:00Speaker 01

  you want to show up and you want to give it your all, but you also need to, you know, you need to be a person.

• 8:05Josh Horowitz?

  Yes.

• 8:06Speaker 01

  And, um, and so, yeah, that was like something we talked about frequently, I think, is just, you know, can, can we do really good work without kind of like driving our personal lives to the ground a little bit? Yeah, yeah.

• 8:20Josh Horowitz?

  Talk to me a little bit about like this one. So this is Springsteen Deliver Me From Nowhere.

• 8:23Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 8:24Josh Horowitz?

  I'll say it again officially. This film's great, you're amazing.

• 8:27Speaker 01

  Thanks, man, thanks for saying that.

• 8:28Josh Horowitz?

  Truly, the degree of difficulty, off the charts.

• 8:30Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 8:32Josh Horowitz?

  I don't know, when this comes to you, I know you've said like this wasn't an immediate yes, only because...

• 8:37Speaker 01

  Well, it's heavy, you know? Yeah, it's, you know, it's Bruce Springsteen, I know how beloved he is and rightfully so. It's interesting too, like I think fans and audiences' relationship to specifically musicians is so intimate.

• 8:54Josh Horowitz?

  Yes.

• 8:55Speaker 01

  And it's so personal. And, you know, I didn't want to let anybody down, I didn't want to interrupt that relationship. But I think what helped was that, you know, we're not telling Bruce's whole story. We're telling an important story and a very important period in his life.

• 9:15Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 9:15Speaker 01

  And I think it was a real like crossroads sort of like moment for him.

• 9:21Speaker 01

  And so that gave me some comfort, you know?

• 9:24Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 9:25Speaker 01

  And then Scott Cooper, who I've admired for a really long time, it's funny, we met, you know, a couple of months before I ever read the script or knew anything about it. And I thought it was just kind of like a general and we just talked about movies we liked and actors we liked. And then, you know, I left just saying, "I hope we find something one day." But I didn't realize he was just kind of like sussing me out the whole time. And then two months later, I got the thing.

• 9:50Josh Horowitz?

  So he offers it to you, you say yes. Like, in that interim period after you say yes, like, do you go to the mirror and say like, "Do I buy this?" Like, you know, I don't, I'm not a doppelganger for Bruce.

• 10:02Speaker 01

  Yeah, for sure.

• 10:02Josh Horowitz?

  Like, is this gonna, our audience is gonna buy it, am I gonna buy it?

• 10:06Speaker 01

  Totally.

• 10:06Josh Horowitz?

  Because it's not the kind of thing where like, you know, you're physically transformed for Iron Claw.

• 10:10Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 10:11Josh Horowitz?

  In many ways. But like, you can't really do that in the same way here.

• 10:15Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, there are conversations, you know, there's conversations...

• 10:19Josh Horowitz?

  Did you go down the road about like, yeah, like altering?

• 10:21Speaker 01

  I talked about, yeah, kind of like putting something in my mouth to maybe get my like jaw out or, you know, and we did the contacts and, you know, we were talking about wigs and all this stuff. And then it just got so busy and I was just like, okay, maybe, maybe the best route, you know, is an internal one. And then we can see, you know, what that does for us, you know, externally ultimately, you know?

• 10:49Josh Horowitz?

  Well, I mean, it does come through. I mean, it's, it's, it's, and there, I'm sure there are small things that I'm not even seeing. I've seen the film a couple of times, but like, there's the voice, there's the way, just you carry yourself.

• 11:00Speaker 01

  Yeah, physicality.

• 11:01Josh Horowitz?

  I mean, how much game tape are you watching? I can only imagine for months you're literally on YouTube.

• 11:06Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, you know, yeah, I had about, I had about six months, you know, um, which is a lot of time, but not, not as much as you might like before you do something like this. Like, I would have loved a year or more, um, but, um...

• 11:23Josh Horowitz?

  It's probably diminishing returns. You're gonna drive yourself insane at a certain point.

• 11:26Speaker 01

  For sure, at a certain point, perhaps. You're right, you're right. Um, but, but yeah, no, there's, um, you know, there's a whole lot of footage, obviously, on Bruce, um, a whole lot of concert footage.

• 11:36Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 11:36Speaker 01

  Um, he's spoken a lot. I mean, he's been very honest, especially in the last couple of decades in promoting his book, Born to Run, and obviously, like, that material in Born to Run was major. Um, Morin's beautiful book, Deliver Me From Nowhere, which focuses on this period in time. Um, and then there were a few performances, in, in, in particular, um, there was one, uh, concert footage from, uh, Tempe, Arizona, um, that I really focused on and that I kinda watched for the Born to Run piece at the beginning of the film, um, but it was also like, uh, you know, there, there's more footage from that concert, and that was just, it was like 1980 or 1979, so that was just right in the pocket for the

• 12:18Speaker 01

  period that I was, I was looking at, um. And then there was this great interview show, The Old Great Whistle Test. I don't know if you're familiar with that at all. Um, it was interviews that were mostly like post-concert.

• 12:29Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 12:29Speaker 01

  And there was a great, like, 15-minute interview of like a 30-year-old Bruce, which is like right, right in the world. Um, and, uh, and so that was one I, I watched very frequently as well, yeah.

• 12:40Josh Horowitz?

  Again, the many themes that, that I think the audiences are gonna relate to on different levels. I mean, it's, it's... First, from an artistic standpoint, it's very much about artistic integrity and what's important to you as an artist, which I would imagine, you know, you have to kind of define that for yourself. I mean, when I say artistic integrity, what does that mean to you in terms of how you, we talked about how you carry yourself on a set, so that's a no-brainer. But like, what is artistic integrity when it comes to crafting a career for you, you think?

• 13:07Speaker 01

  I think, like, you know, well, protection is one thing, you know, you're protecting your own kind of perspective and point of view constantly. And then, you know, I think I'm in a really privileged position now where, kind of for the first time in my career, I have some options, you know, and I have some choices to make. And I think, you know, that's where it's this like, you know, I think some actors can get a little confused, there's the question of art and commerce, and also, you know, you listen to a lot of people saying, "Well, this is the, this is the next thing."

• 13:46Josh Horowitz?

  Yes.

• 13:47Speaker 01

  And then sometimes you can trick yourself into going, "Oh yeah, maybe this is," even if your gut and your heart is telling you, "You know what, maybe this one isn't for me. I need to be patient. I need to say no. I need to wait," you know, I think that's a big part of it.

• 14:00Josh Horowitz?

  It's also very confusing because like, the industry has changed so quickly. Like, it's like, what was like, the obvious thing to do for an actor, to like, you know, earn your cred and like, you know, be established, is different now than it was five years ago.

• 14:12Speaker 01

  It's totally shifted. There's not the same routes either. It's a totally different, especially for like, a young actor and, you know, it's, the paths are very different.

• 14:21Josh Horowitz?

  It's also like, I've had this conversation with many actors over the years, and I always find it fascinating, that transition you're talking about of like, when you have the opportunity and, you know, to say no, like, finally. Like, because actors, 99% of actors are just taking the best they coming at you.

• 14:36Speaker 01

  Totally.

• 14:37Josh Horowitz?

  For their entire career.

• 14:38Speaker 01

  Yeah, all the time.

• 14:38Josh Horowitz?

  And this is what you've been like, fighting for and wanted your entire life. No pressure, Jeremy.

• 14:44Speaker 01

  Absolutely. I mean, I have said, I have passed on things where four years ago, I would have actually, like, killed. And it's a very confusing situation where you're kind of walking around with like, Guilt and doubt almost at every turn. It's a very strange thing, yeah.

• 15:02Josh Horowitz?

  So if I had to talk to you like year eight of Shameless.

• 15:05Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 15:07Josh Horowitz?

  Like, great gig.

• 15:08Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 15:09Josh Horowitz?

  Stable.

• 15:09Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 15:10Josh Horowitz?

  Great actors around you, the material's good.

• 15:11Speaker 01

  Mm-hmm.

• 15:12Josh Horowitz?

  It's a long gig, though. Like, at a certain point where you're like, maybe this is all there is. Like, I'm not, I don't know if I can go to another level in terms of a career.

• 15:22Speaker 01

  Yeah, I think I had a lot of that. You know, we did 11 seasons of that show. I was 18 when we started, I was 30 when we finished. And I think, yeah, there was definitely a period, especially towards the end, where I was like, well, maybe this is what I had to give.

• 15:37Josh Horowitz?

  Right.

• 15:38Speaker 01

  You know?

• 15:40Speaker 01

  And I stopped thinking of it as, you know, I would do a film or something in the hiatuses every once in a while, but nothing that really matched the sort of like size and reach of Shameless ever.

• 15:53Josh Horowitz?

  Yes.

• 15:53Speaker 01

  And, um, and, and yeah, I had this concern that, you know, am I, am I an actor anymore? Or am I like clocking in a little bit now? And I think it started to feel a bit like a job, and that was scary. Because, you know, that's never what you want this to feel like.

• 16:14Josh Horowitz?

  Right.

• 16:14Speaker 01

  You know?

• 16:52Speaker 04

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• 17:40Josh Horowitz?

  So, okay, we're gonna bounce around a little bit since we have the luxury of time. I'm gonna go back to the beginning. You're a New York kid.

• 17:45Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 17:46Josh Horowitz?

  Parents instill a lot of love in the arts for you.

• 17:50Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 17:51Josh Horowitz?

  I mean, film and TV, or just generally museums, the whole thing?

• 17:53Speaker 01

  Yeah, generally, you know, my folks, they were actors. That's how they met. They lived on the Upper West Side. And my dad saw my mom in a show and went out and got her flowers in her mission. And they got together.

• 18:07Josh Horowitz?

  There are the flowers. There's the key.

• 18:08Speaker 01

  There's the flowers. There's the acting. There's the flowers.

• 18:11Josh Horowitz?

  We found the origin story.

• 18:12Speaker 01

  Exactly, exactly.

• 18:14Josh Horowitz?

  This is like a therapy session. I just unlocked something for you.

• 18:16Speaker 01

  We're figuring it out.

• 18:17Josh Horowitz?

  You're welcome.

• 18:17Speaker 01

  We're figuring it out. Thank you, thank you. But, yeah, you know, fast forward a little bit. They, you know, they got pregnant. We moved to Brooklyn when I was born there. And they had to figure out jobs, you know, that could pay the bills and support some kids. And so they weren't acting anymore. But there was, yes, always like a respect, interest, passion, you know, for that stuff.

• 18:42Josh Horowitz?

  So if I saw you, like, your bedroom walls at like a 14 or 15, did you have movie posters up? Were there actors you were already getting obsessed with? Like, what were the first kind of...

• 18:51Speaker 01

  Yeah, that was like, that was like... Scorsese and Mean Streets and Goodfellas and PTA and Boogie Nights and like that was, you know, that was that time for for sure. Yeah.

• 19:04Josh Horowitz?

  Did you, that must have been something then to get to know Macy at some point, the PTA connection. Did you at some point like year three start to like?

• 19:11Speaker 01

  I I asked him immediately and he gave me nothing. It was so upsetting. I was like, what can you tell me about Paul Thomas Anderson? Like, I'm so excited. You're so great. Magnolia and Boogie Nights and da, da, da. And he was like, oh, he's great.

• 19:25Josh Horowitz?

  Come on.

• 19:25Speaker 01

  I was like, come on, man. I'm 18. I'm so excited. But he, no, he wouldn't give it to me. Yeah.

• 19:31Josh Horowitz?

  Have you seen the new PTA yet?

• 19:32Speaker 01

  I haven't seen it yet.

• 19:33Josh Horowitz?

  I think you're gonna love it.

• 19:34Speaker 01

  I know. I'm just hearing so many. It's so funny. I keep going to like, like I saw Eben and Io the other night and they had both seen it. And I feel like they were angry I was hanging out with them because all they wanted to do was discuss it.

• 19:46Josh Horowitz?

  Right.

• 19:46Speaker 01

  And I was ruining, yeah, I would like go to the bathroom and they'd like fit in as much as they could.

• 19:52Josh Horowitz?

  I think especially as a PTA fan and a girl dad.

• 19:54Speaker 01

  Yeah. It's gonna be a big one, huh?

• 19:56Josh Horowitz?

  It's gonna be a big one for you.

• 19:57Speaker 01

  Okay, I'm excited.

• 19:58Josh Horowitz?

  Have you ever met PTA? Have you had that meeting?

• 20:00Speaker 01

  No, I have not had that meeting. I've seen him around. You know, I live in the valley. And that's where he grew up, obviously. And I think he lives somewhere around there. Because I see him at this, this restaurant near my house occasionally, but I always, he's like reading the paper and I'm like, you know, I won't invade that space. Yeah.

• 20:21Josh Horowitz?

  So, do you remember like when you start to act professionally in your teens, like, was there a first name actor or name filmmaker that was exciting for you to work with? Like, who were the first kind of like people of note that you clocked and maybe learned something from?

• 20:35Speaker 01

  I think like Pacino was huge for me. That was also my like, my acting teacher in high school. That was kind of his guy and.

• 20:46Josh Horowitz?

  Oh, wow.

• 20:47Speaker 01

  And, and, and the Pacino had his start in theater and that's kind of where I thought I was gonna.

• 20:53Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 20:53Speaker 01

  Exist, I guess, for a long time. I think my, my hope was, you know, I'll get out of high school, I'll be able to do a play or two. Maybe like a cool, you know, independent film. And I'd been really lucky, I'd, you know, my first movie was this movie with Antonio Campos, who I love, and he had this, him and Sean Durkin and Josh Mond had this collective borderline films. And so I was like, I'll do some plays, I'll do a movie with those guys.

• 21:26Josh Horowitz?

  Yes.

• 21:26Speaker 01

  And I'll do like three episodes of Law and Order.

• 21:29Josh Horowitz?

  Which you did, I think.

• 21:30Speaker 01

  And yeah, and that'll be my, and that'll be my year, every year. And that was kind of my, that was my hope.

• 21:37Josh Horowitz?

  Are you simultaneously, I guess this is before, Shameless, of course, like, are you doing, I don't even know if Pilot Season was like in its heyday then, but like, are you going to LA? And going up for kind of like, because here's the thing that strikes me, like Shameless is such a lucky break in that like, you could have been on something for seven, eight years that was kind of devoid of any like artistic merit. Like you could have just been caught into that, the gears of that system.

• 21:58Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 21:58Josh Horowitz?

  And it just so happens Shameless was a really cool one.

• 22:00Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, I mean, I was also, you know, I was with a smaller agency and, I mean, they were lovely, but you know. They would send me out for everything and I was already very kind of like discerning.

• 22:14Josh Horowitz?

  Yes.

• 22:14Speaker 01

  And they were like, what business do you have?

• 22:17Josh Horowitz?

  You're seventeen years old.

• 22:19Speaker 01

  Saying no to like, it's not a yes or no situation, you haven't even been invited to the party. Like you can't say no. And I was like, yeah, but I don't think this one's for me.

• 22:26Josh Horowitz?

  I've done three episodes of Law and Order, so I think I'm good, guys.

• 22:29Speaker 01

  Exactly. So I wouldn't audition a lot and they were probably gonna drop me at some point soon. But I would, I would occasionally go to Los Angeles and do that like testing. Like stay in that hotel and near Universal City and, and test for something.

• 22:45Speaker 01

  And, and then yeah, eventually it was Shameless, but, but before then I, I worked at Susan Shopmaker Casting for a long time, here in New York. So I was going to school and I was working at Susan Shopmaker Casting. She had put me in after school when I was sixteen. And then I worked as a, as a reader, really for a long time.

• 23:04Josh Horowitz?

  You'll see the other side of things.

• 23:05Speaker 01

  Yeah, with Susan, yeah, yeah.

• 23:06Josh Horowitz?

  Were there any auditions in those years that, whether you got the part or not, that really made an impact on you? Just getting in the room, having the experience of meeting a filmmaker you admired that stand out?

• 23:19Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, I remember audition for, it was a very small part in The Assassination of Jesse James, and so I got to meet, you know, Andrew Dominick.

• 23:28Josh Horowitz?

  Dominic.

• 23:29Speaker 01

  Dominic, yeah. And that was a really big one for me. I had loved his first film with Eric Bonner.

• 23:37Josh Horowitz?

  Yes, we're both blanking.

• 23:39Speaker 01

  Oh, no.

• 23:39Josh Horowitz?

  Oh, no.

• 23:40Speaker 01

  Chopper.

• 23:41Josh Horowitz?

  You got it.

• 23:42Speaker 01

  Yes, and so I was really excited for that one. And yeah, like other, I'm sure there were other, yeah, great kind of directors in the beginning there that I got in the rooms with, but that one comes to mind, yeah.

• 23:55Josh Horowitz?

  So you got Shameless, is that an exciting, like, do you see the opportunity of that immediately? Was it as exciting as it seemed on paper to get it?

• 24:02Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, I mean, I had been, obviously, a fan of, you know, Bill Macy's for such a long time, and so I felt with him at the, like, helm, that was huge. John Wells has, you know, he's such a legend in television, so I was really excited that he was doing it. Mark Mylott directed the pilot, who has gone on now to do, like, you know, Succession, he's doing the Harry Potter series, and he made a great film, The Menu, and, but at the time, all he had done was Entourage, and that was a show in high school that I was very engaged with. So, yeah, it was, like, across the board, very exciting. And the material, you know, I watched the English series, I really loved the English series.

• 24:42Speaker 01

  I had so much fun, especially in the first four, five years, I had, like, a blast on that show.

• 24:49Josh Horowitz?

  That must have been your first experience also in, like, encountering some degree of celebrity and people almost, I don't know, did people confuse you with the character? Did you find people were encountering you as lip as much as Jeremy out in the wild? And is that, was that a wake-up call in some ways?

• 25:03Speaker 01

  Yeah, but I think I wanted them to when I was young. In a way, like, I think I was, like, I was... I don't know, projecting all the time, like a version of myself that was probably a bit further away from me than I knew at the time, but now in retrospect, I'm able to go, oh, that really wasn't me. I was just kind of trying to do this, this thing for a long time.

• 25:28Josh Horowitz?

  Sweet. What were you trying, what, tell me more. What are you projecting, you think?

• 25:31Speaker 01

  I don't know. I think, you know, at the time, you know, I was so into like, I was really into Sean Penn and Pacino and De Niro and all these guys. And, and from what I'd gathered, I mean, I know that they care so much about their, their, their art, but all the rest of it, they seemed so kind of like beyond it.

• 25:50Josh Horowitz?

  Yes, yeah.

• 25:50Speaker 01

  And I think I tried to get a little bit of that, like devil may care sort of deal, but I did care, like so much.

• 25:59Josh Horowitz?

  The true acting performance was burying that all the way down.

• 26:02Speaker 01

  Exactly, exactly.

• 26:03Josh Horowitz?

  And being too cool for school a little bit.

• 26:05Speaker 01

  Yeah, I think so. Yeah, there was something like that going on in my early twenties and late teens, for sure.

• 26:09Josh Horowitz?

  That's a, yeah, I think for someone in their twenties, that's like a little artistic insecurity of kind of overcompensation.

• 26:15Speaker 01

  Totally.

• 26:15Josh Horowitz?

  It totally clocks.

• 26:16Speaker 01

  I forgive myself. Yes.

• 26:17Josh Horowitz?

  Yes, we forgive you too.

• 26:18Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. Thank you.

• 26:19Josh Horowitz?

  So you've talked about this before. I mean, the transition out of Shameless, which is this giant period of your life, and literally a transition from like a young man to a man.

• 26:27Speaker 01

  For sure, yeah.

• 26:28Josh Horowitz?

  Um, this pivot point coming out of that and into The Bear is kind of like an existential, artistic, human crisis you kind of had to like get through a little bit. I don't know if I'm overstating it.

• 26:39Speaker 01

  No, not at all. Yeah. Um, I mean, I did ADR for the last episode of Shameless at Warner Brothers. I was driving home on Mulholland and I had to pull over because I was having a panic attack. I was so, that show was so consistent for me. I knew where I was going to be every year. I had a community and a family and people I loved and that loved me and understood me. And, um, and now I was looking into a lot of unknown. I had, you know, my oldest daughter, Ezzie, was, was two. My youngest had just been born and I was like, I gotta, we gotta keep this going, you know? Um, and, uh, and yeah, it was a difficult time, but I went kind of directly into, yeah, The Bear.

• 27:23Josh Horowitz?

  So Chris Storer, the creator of The Bear, you'd worked with to a degree on The Rental, right?

• 27:28Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 27:28Josh Horowitz?

  Um, nice film that Dave Franco directed. Shout out to Dave.

• 27:31Speaker 01

  Shout out to Dave.

• 27:32Josh Horowitz?

  Good guy.

• 27:34Josh Horowitz?

  Talk to me a little bit about like reading Carmi the first time, talking to Chris.

• 27:37Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 27:39Josh Horowitz?

  Sounds like it took some convincing only in that you didn't want to like, oh, another Chicago show, another series.

• 27:43Speaker 01

  I think the fact that it was in Chicago is just such a.

• 27:46Josh Horowitz?

  Like, really? We're doing this again?

• 27:47Speaker 01

  Damn.

• 27:48Josh Horowitz?

  Of all the cities, it's a great city, but really.

• 27:50Speaker 01

  No, it's an amazing city, but uh, yeah, so the Chris thing was, it was funny, I, you know, I, I, I think I've told this story before, maybe it's just been with people in passing, but um, you, Chris was like a co-producer on, on The Rantle, he's good friends with Dave and, and was helping out and um, you know, we shot that maybe between seasons eight and nine of Shameless and I didn't really know Chris, we didn't talk a whole lot to each other, but I saw him around and he comes up to me on one of my last weeks, like maybe last week of shooting and he goes, "Hey buddy, what, what do you think you're gonna be doing in like two years?" And I was like, "Oh, like, I don't, I don't know, I think I got a couple more years of the show I'm doing, I think probably we're gonna go a little bit longer."

• 28:33Speaker 01

  He goes, "Okay, like, you know what, I'm gonna give you a call in two years." And I'm like, "Okay, guy, like, yeah, well."

• 28:41Josh Horowitz?

  This is the classic Hollywood conversation.

• 28:42Speaker 01

  Sure thing, yeah, absolutely. I'm gonna write something for you. Yeah, exactly. Um, and to his credit, two years on the dot. He, uh, he called me, we had a Zoom, we talked about the show and, and I told him, you know, I'm finishing up the 11th season of Shameless and I don't know if I want to jump right back into a TV show and, but please send me the, you know, send me the script and I want to read it. And it was so good and it was so rich and textured and Chris is so smart and the way he spoke about it was so elegant and beautiful. But yeah, I think I was just bumping up against, uh, you know, there was some family dynamics and traumas and then also we're in the city of, of Chicago and I just spent so much time

• 29:24Speaker 01

  there and, and so that was my only kind of um, hesitance during that time.

• 29:31Speaker 01

  But then I think I was just like, who am I to? Pass on something that's so rich and I need to see where this goes, I guess.

• 29:39Josh Horowitz?

  Do you remember the early days on set with like, I mean, Eben had been around, but he again wasn't like a star in any real way, but like, you know, actors loved him.

• 29:47Speaker 01

  Totally.

• 29:47Josh Horowitz?

  You know, Io, of course, people didn't really like know at the time. I mean, do you remember those early days? Like, do you idolize kind of like, oh, like we immediately were tapping into something. There was something those first weeks that felt special.

• 29:59Speaker 01

  Yeah, it was, it was really remarkable. I mean, it was also this funny thing where, I mean, the script was great. The for the pilot, but I remember we had one table read for our show and it was for the pilot.

• 30:09Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 30:10Speaker 01

  And it did not read well. And it took like seven minutes. Because everybody was like, speaking so quickly and the transitions weren't clear and and so I think everybody was a little bit like, uh oh, like what do we, like, what do we have? But it's a credit to Chris and, and his direction and also the feeling that he kind of gave us all that feeling of, of, um, of excitement and, um, and yeah, I think everybody's chemistry, everybody's showing up and, and caring so much immediately. I mean, you're right, like, you know, Liza had done theater for a very long time. She hadn't really had her, her moment yet. Lionel hadn't done very much. Io hadn't done very much.

• 30:53Speaker 01

  Eben had done some stuff and I had Shameless and some stuff, but nobody was like, you know, gonna anchor this thing as like, oh, that's the star, you know what I mean?

• 31:03Speaker 01

  And, but I think that made everybody show up and just be so, um, you know, we just took advantage and we cared so much, you know?

• 31:10Josh Horowitz?

  Do you get as much as an actor out of, I mean, the show has this juxtaposition of like these like frenetic, insane sequences? And then these like quiet moments, just you, Io like smoking can be as pointed to anything.

• 31:22Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 31:22Josh Horowitz?

  Do you get something out of, out of both? It seems like the fans do, like they like love both ends of it.

• 31:27Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, that's the rhythm of a kitchen and, and I think that rung, that rung very true and, and I think really, you know, early on I spotted the parallels of making a film and, and getting that food out, you know? Um, so I was, I was familiar with that sort of like, uh, that sense of urgency, um, that anxiety. Um, you know, we're rushing to get that magic hour shot.

• 31:52Josh Horowitz?

  Yep.

• 31:53Speaker 01

  Um, you're looking at the clock all the time. Um, and then there's those, you're kind of like holding your breath all the time. And then there's the exhale. And so much of The Bear for me is like it's in breath. It's like, you know, that tightness and then that release, you know.

• 32:10Josh Horowitz?

  Do you feel comfortable, essentially like our avatar of anxiety, I feel like.

• 32:15Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 32:16Josh Horowitz?

  Thanks to Karmi and even some of your other roles. Like it feels like we project, like, I think that's a lot of the connection that people feel in these times.

• 32:24Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 32:24Josh Horowitz?

  For the show and that character in particular.

• 32:26Speaker 01

  Well, it's common, isn't it, these days to have those feelings, I guess, you know.

• 32:30Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 32:30Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 32:31Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah, I don't know, like, do you look at yourself in the mirror like I have resting sad face? I have resting like, like, people can see into me like something, I don't know.

• 32:40Speaker 01

  Yeah, I don't know if I hide stuff very well.

• 32:42Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 32:42Speaker 01

  I guess maybe that's something like I, like, um.

• 32:45Josh Horowitz?

  Well, that's a gift as an actor that you can do a lot without much sometimes, yeah.

• 32:49Speaker 01

  Like, I feel like it's easy to like, I can get busted very easily sometimes, you know? Like, if I'm feeling something, yeah, it's hard for me to, uh, it's hard for me to hide it, I guess, yeah.

• 32:58Josh Horowitz?

  So I was, when I ran into Chris the other day, he was talking about how like shocking, he's still shocked about how the show has resonated and like the fans. I mean, it must have redefined like what success was. Again, like Shameless is by most standards a huge successful show.

• 33:11Speaker 01

  Yeah, but we did it for so long, yeah, totally.

• 33:12Josh Horowitz?

  But this is a whole different level of cultural, you know.

• 33:16Speaker 01

  Yes, the significance, I think culturally was, was, yeah, remarkable.

• 33:19Josh Horowitz?

  And did you feel that relatively early on, like out in the world, Starbucks, like, did things change?

• 33:25Speaker 01

  Yeah, out of the gate, you know, even in those first couple of weeks, I was in New York at the time. And I felt, yeah, I felt it immediately going out. I mean, Shameless was, it was such a big show, obviously, we were able to do it for so long. But I felt like it was like, I don't know, if I was walking around like Williamsburg or something, I might not get recognized that much. Or if I was walking around downtown Manhattan, I wouldn't get recognized that much. Or even in LA sometimes, you know? And, and then when The Bear happened, even in those first couple of weeks, I was like, oh, this is, like, people are following me around and people are really interested and, um, and people were discovering me for.

• 34:10Speaker 01

  The first time, which was, which was cool because before that it was just shameless. And I think there was like a lot of people didn't know what that show was.

• 34:16Josh Horowitz?

  Right.

• 34:17Speaker 01

  That found this show, you know?

• 34:19Josh Horowitz?

  I assume you're like most human beings in that you eat probably two to three times a day. So you, every opportunity, I feel like is an opportunity for someone to like make some joke. If you're out in public eating, it's like, yes chef, let me show you the kitchen. Let me send you over some food.

• 34:32Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 34:33Josh Horowitz?

  Like it's, it must be such a constant because of the nature of what people connect to on that show.

• 34:39Speaker 01

  As long as I can get a reservation last minute and I get some free food, they can, you know, they can joke around as much as they like.

• 34:45Josh Horowitz?

  The rest can come.

• 34:45Speaker 01

  Yeah, exactly. It's okay with me.

• 34:48Josh Horowitz?

  Then there are the other ancillary interesting things associated with celebrity. Like how many friends have sent you photos of themselves like posing in front of like Calvin Klein billboards?

• 34:57Speaker 01

  Yeah, for sure. That was a big one. I mean, you know, I grew up in New York. That billboard, you know, I've seen all the iterations, all the different models, celebrity and otherwise. It's like, it's an iconic street. It's an iconic billboard. Yeah, it was insane. It felt like to have that in my city was like, you know, was, was major.

• 35:24Josh Horowitz?

  But it is again, like to my point of like, you know, you've been doing this a minute.

• 35:28Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 35:28Josh Horowitz?

  And to, and to all of a sudden be like regarded in this different way is, must be a bit of a mindfuck in some great ways and also some complicated ways. Like what have been kind of like your ways of preserving yourself mentally, emotionally with like, what is a very unusual circumstance for a human being to be like, you know, internet boyfriend material or whatever the fuck we call this now.

• 35:51Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, there's two things I think, you know, I'm very lucky. You know, I started acting when I was 14.

• 35:57Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 35:58Speaker 01

  So while to many it might seem that I got shot out of a cannon.

• 36:01Josh Horowitz?

  Right.

• 36:02Speaker 01

  That's not the case. It's been a very like gradual build. And also, you know, there's this big time piece on Bruce Springsteen that came out a couple of weeks ago. And John Landau said this thing, talking about show business. And he said, you know, show business can be such a fun life. It can be so rewarding, but it has to be a part of a much bigger life. It can't be a substitution.

• 36:25Josh Horowitz?

  Yes.

• 36:26Speaker 01

  And I think, you know, I've reached some kind of other level after I've had two kids.

• 36:33Josh Horowitz?

  Yes.

• 36:34Speaker 01

  After my life has gotten very big and my concerns have changed and what matters to me really has changed. And so I feel very lucky in a lot of ways that, you know, my life feels a lot bigger than this. And I have to imagine those younger actors, performers, artists, whatever, who hit it really big at 16, 17, 18, 19.

• 36:54Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 36:55Speaker 01

  I have to imagine it. It's got to be very confusing and difficult, you know?

• 36:59Josh Horowitz?

  And I would imagine also, like, yeah, you've been through a lot, you know, personally and professionally.

• 37:04Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 37:05Josh Horowitz?

  You probably couldn't have done Springsteen five years ago, like before The Bear, before what you kind of like, from an actor perspective and a celebrity perspective, that has given you such a shift in perspective, I would imagine.

• 37:15Speaker 01

  Yeah, but that was, I mean, that was another reason this job was, I mean, again, Springsteen was hard to say, it was hard to finally commit to because I knew, I knew what it was going to take. I knew how demanding it was going to be, not just in the preparation, but kind of like staying close to him and somewhat close to his sort of like feeling and headspace during that time that we're portraying in the film. And I was, there was really just a, you know, you know, that thing of, I'm going to miss my kids and I'm going to miss home and it's going to be hard. And I'm not going to have a lot of time to myself. And I knew that. I knew it was going to take a lot.

• 37:57Speaker 01

  And it was just about that choice, like, you know, can I forfeit these couple of months and really commit myself, you know?

• 38:11Speaker 00

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• 39:42Josh Horowitz?

  So I do want to mention a couple of things. We talked about working with Austin. This, on paper, is right up my alley, whatever you guys...

• 39:48Speaker 01

  Oh, it's really cool. I haven't seen much of it yet, but it's a really cool movie.

• 39:52Josh Horowitz?

  So, you know, reference points are like, you know, it's two characters. What is it? One a cop, one a...

• 39:59Speaker 01

  Yep, cop and killer.

• 40:01Josh Horowitz?

  Cop and killer.

• 40:01Speaker 01

  Yep, yep.

• 40:02Josh Horowitz?

  You're talking Heat on the set, you're talking Michael Mann.

• 40:05Speaker 01

  We're talking Melville, we're talking Suzuki, we're talking, yeah, like a real...

• 40:10Josh Horowitz?

  So who's the good guy? Who's the bad guy?

• 40:11Speaker 01

  Well, I don't know, you guys have to decide yourselves, but I play um Practical terms Yeah, I play the cop and Austin plays the killer in the film

• 40:20Josh Horowitz?

  Amazing, amazing. Um, what, you're gonna be appearing in a way in the new Star Wars film?

• 40:26Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, yeah

• 40:27Josh Horowitz?

  So, were you a Star Wars kid? Like, how did, like?

• 40:29Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, yeah, I watched all the films and stuff. Yeah, absolutely, yes. But I'm not the most knowledgeable

• 40:35Josh Horowitz?

  I'm not gonna put you to the test

• 40:36Speaker 01

  Yeah, okay, okay, okay That will come on that junket, and so get ready Yeah, I'll get ready, yeah, yeah

• 40:41Josh Horowitz?

  So when they come to you, I don't know if Favreau reaches out and says, "Hey, do you wanna be Jabba the Hutt's son?" Like, is that literally the kind of the text, email, phone call?

• 40:49Speaker 01

  It was pretty chill, the way it happened. I mean, I met John at a party. And I've loved John Favreau for so long. I mean, Swingers was huge, Maid was huge, Chef is so great, Elf, I mean, he's a, he's really a legend, but Swingers and Maid particularly in my youth, I was like, "Oh, wow." Um, and he was like, "Do you wanna do something on this movie? Have you ever seen The Mandalorian?" And I was like, "Oh, yeah, it's a great, great show, and you do such a great job." And, "Yeah, I like Star Wars, like, yeah, let's talk about it." And, uh, he made it seem very chill, you know, and he was like, "You know, you're gonna play Jabba the Hutt's son? You'll come in, it's just voice stuff, you know, we're not gonna take any scans, you're not gonna do any of that stuff, and we'll just come in for half a day and read some stuff."

• 41:33Speaker 01

  And I was like, "Yeah, absolutely." But they didn't, they hadn't shot any of the movie yet, really. So I'm just kinda like, reading some stuff, trying to put it together. I remember calling him the night before and being like, I was watching some of the movies before, getting ready, but I was like, "Is there anything in particular you want me to watch, or what do you want me to like, to really like learn, is there something I should know?" And he was like, "No, just come on in and, you know, do the thing," and, and I did. And then a year passed, and they'd shot the movie. And he was like, "We've got some more stuff for you to do." And I think I realized that they, they really fleshed that character out a little bit, and I might be in more of that movie than I had, I had realized originally

• 42:14Josh Horowitz?

  But I assume like, the voice is, I mean, Jabba has a very specific way of speaking, so are you doing like, you're like, "Ho, ho, ho," like that kinda like, like that whole thing?

• 42:23Speaker 01

  No, I was like, "What kind of vocal work do you want me to do? Like, do you want me to bring in?" And I was doing some stuff, but he was also like, "We're gonna mess with it," and, you know. Um, I haven't heard the finished product, I haven't seen the film, so it's hard for me to, you know, talk about it too much, but

• 42:40Josh Horowitz?

  And then social reckoning, I know you haven't shot yet, you're gonna be reteaming with Jeremy.

• 42:44Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 42:45Josh Horowitz?

  Mikey Madison.

• 42:46Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 42:46Josh Horowitz?

  Sorkin.

• 42:47Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 42:47Josh Horowitz?

  This is a good group to be with.

• 42:48Speaker 01

  It's a good group, it's a good group, that's what I look for, good groups.

• 42:51Josh Horowitz?

  And this is the, yeah, this is the only thing an actor can do, is surround yourself with the best and they're gonna bring out the best in you.

• 42:56Speaker 01

  Totally.

• 42:56Josh Horowitz?

  So, um, Sorkin's script reads like fire, I would imagine.

• 43:02Speaker 01

  Incredible, it's remarkable how, how sort of, um, how lengthy, uh, and sort of, um, uh, like it should be confusing.

• 43:12Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 43:13Speaker 01

  His writing sometimes, especially, you know, when he's writing about worlds that you might not be incredibly familiar with.

• 43:18Josh Horowitz?

  There's a lot of information in there.

• 43:19Speaker 01

  There's a lot of information.

• 43:20Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 43:21Speaker 01

  But the writing is so good, that even an idiot like myself can kind of pick up on, on what's going on. There's not a lot of guesswork, it's like, oh, what's going on with this character and what's happening, like, everything's very clear, everything's very quick, everything's very funny. Um, you know, I grew up watching The West Wing with my dad, um, and that was like a John Wells connection and now a Sorkin, uh, connection. Um, I love, uh, I love Sorkin and, and I hope Jeremy and I can do a movie together every, every October from now on.

• 43:54Josh Horowitz?

  This is a good tradition to start.

• 43:55Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 43:56Josh Horowitz?

  Uh, some random stuff for you, you're a tattoo guy, yes?

• 43:59Speaker 01

  Sure, yeah.

• 43:59Josh Horowitz?

  Are they all like, connected to, are, are any of them connected to work, or is it all like, family, what's the, what's the criteria at this point?

• 44:07Speaker 01

  It's kind of all family, I'm trying to think, like, family and love and family, yeah, um. I thought about, I really thought a long time about, um, getting something for a lip when, when it was ending, um. But then, I'm like, I'm, I can't, you know, I can't go down that road. Cause I feel like if I start it then, you know.

• 44:27Josh Horowitz?

  Right.

• 44:28Speaker 01

  What are we gonna do?

• 44:29Josh Horowitz?

  I mean, you're not.

• 44:29Speaker 01

  Just get it for everybody? I don't know, yeah, exactly, yeah, so, um, I might be, um, I might be done, yeah.

• 44:35Josh Horowitz?

  The first time someone sends you a meme or a photo of you and Gene Wilder, is that like, oh, Jesus, or like, oh, I see it, that's kinda funny, like?

• 44:43Speaker 01

  I see it, for sure, and I have no, I mean, I love Gene Wilder, he's a legend.

• 44:48Josh Horowitz?

  Who doesn't, of course.

• 44:48Speaker 01

  Yeah, like, I, I, I take no issue, um, but I do think there was something going around, I think people were convinced that I was actually related to the man, which is not, which is not the truth.

• 44:59Josh Horowitz?

  Okay, we'll set the record.

• 45:00Speaker 01

  Go ahead and say that now.

• 45:01Josh Horowitz?

  Why are you denying it so much, it sounds suspect the way you're?

• 45:03Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 45:05Josh Horowitz?

  So who are, give me your shortlist right now, like actor, filmmakers, if I could will into existence, a meeting, anything, like, who are you just admiring as a film lover right now?

• 45:16Speaker 01

  Um, I mean, well, Zach Krager, I really, really loved Weapons. He's, you know, obviously only made a couple films, but, but he's great. Paolo Sorrentino, I got to meet at Telluride, which was really exciting, because I've kind of been talking about him for, for years. The Great Beauties is one of my all-time favorites. Andrea Arnold is one of my favorites. I love her so much and I'm so interested in her process. Lars, one of our producers on Enemies, has worked with her before and I just talked to him kind of about American Honey and that process, a whole lot.

• 45:51Josh Horowitz?

  I talked like Barry about Bird. I feel like there wasn't a script, like I think it's right, it's pretty loose.

• 45:56Speaker 01

  Totally, yeah.

• 45:56Josh Horowitz?

  Is that intrigue you? Have you ever worked in that way on a program?

• 45:59Speaker 01

  No, and it's, it sounds, it sounds like she doesn't have like a, there's no schedule really, you just kind of show up in the morning and it's kind of like based around location and it's all very like free form and that sounds really exciting. Barry, I'd love Barry, I love, he's the best. You know, I love that guy. There's so many young guys, like it's so nice. I went to go see Harris's movie at Telluride, Urchin, and I was with, sitting next to his manager. And anyway, I mean, I just, I love that movie so much and I'm such a fan of Harris's and, and it's just so nice, like, I feel like this young group of actors are so like, like I just love them and I want them to succeed and I want to do more stuff with them and

• 46:42Speaker 01

  I don't know if that was always like how this went.

• 46:45Josh Horowitz?

  No, it strikes me from the outside looking in, because I've talked to all of you guys, you've all done the podcast, Harrison, Paul Meskell, and it's like this really cool group that not only has like such good film taste that is in it for the right reasons, but also seems to be rooting each other on, like, you know, it's, it's, it's a good crop you're in.

• 47:01Speaker 01

  It feels nice, yeah, it definitely feels nice. There's like some cheerleaders and everybody's each other's kind of cheerleader.

• 47:07Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah, back in the day, like Schwarzenegger and Stallone were like out pumping each other like for movies.

• 47:12Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 47:12Josh Horowitz?

  It's a different vibe.

• 47:13Speaker 01

  I'm trying to think, who's our, yeah.

• 47:17Josh Horowitz?

  You did talk about at one point, I know like, you know, the Marvel stuff and the blockbuster stuff always comes up, that you had a meeting for a Marvolee kind of a thing.

• 47:26Speaker 01

  That was like, that was out of, that was out of line. I was like, that was again, me sort of, you know, not being entirely invited to the party and being like, I don't even want to go anyway. But I did, yes, I had a meeting that I probably could have, I could have handled differently, for sure. And I think I was just like, I don't, first of all, I don't really know, it's not like a bag on the genre as much as it is like, I don't know what I can, can give to it really, or how I fit into it. And also, I think there was a period where sort of like being in one of those films guaranteed, like, you

• 48:07Speaker 01

  can get any movie made. And if you find a script on the street, and you take that around to people, and you love it, you can get it made. And I just don't know if that's how it's working anymore.

• 48:17Josh Horowitz?

  It's not. Objectively, it's not. That's what we were saying. The playing field has changed so much in the last five, 10 years.

• 48:24Speaker 01

  Totally.

• 48:25Josh Horowitz?

  That being said, I've seen the fan cast of you as Wolverine. I think you'd be a really cool Wolverine.

• 48:29Speaker 01

  Oh, that's nice, man, yeah. I mean, he's, I mean, you know, that performance is great. He's done it for so long. He's really excellent. That's, that's nice. And that was like, I'm not a big superhero like movie guy, but X-Men was the big, that was, correct me if I'm wrong, but that was like...

• 48:45Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah, X-Men, Spider-Man, early on.

• 48:46Speaker 01

  Those were the early ones. And so, of course, I loved all those movies, yeah.

• 48:51Josh Horowitz?

  All right. We're gonna end with the Happy Second Fused Profoundly Random Questions for you, Jeremy.

• 48:55Speaker 01

  Okay, cool.

• 48:55Josh Horowitz?

  Are you a dog or a cat person?

• 48:57Speaker 01

  Dog.

• 48:58Josh Horowitz?

  Do you have one currently?

• 48:59Speaker 01

  No. I grew up with dogs.

• 49:01Josh Horowitz?

  Okay.

• 49:01Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 49:02Josh Horowitz?

  You gotta fix that. What do you collect, if anything?

• 49:04Speaker 01

  Um, hmm.

• 49:08Josh Horowitz?

  Besides battered hats?

• 49:09Speaker 01

  I was gonna say, I do have a lot of hats. I used to collect coins when I was young, but it's been a long time. But maybe I should get back into it. Maybe there's some real money there. We make some investments, you know?

• 49:20Josh Horowitz?

  I think, yeah, Bitcoin I hear is great.

• 49:21Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 49:23Josh Horowitz?

  Favorite video game of all time?

• 49:24Speaker 01

  Oh, um, probably Grand Theft Auto. Yeah.

• 49:30Josh Horowitz?

  This is the Dakota Johnson Memorial Question. She asked me this once. I ask everybody, would you rather have a mouthful of bees or one bee in your butt?

• 49:36Speaker 01

  I didn't know Dakota, that's funny.

• 49:38Josh Horowitz?

  It's a lot to process, I know.

• 49:42Speaker 01

  But, right?

• 49:43Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 49:43Speaker 01

  Yeah, okay.

• 49:43Josh Horowitz?

  That's a great answer.

• 49:45Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 49:45Josh Horowitz?

  That's a great answer.

• 49:48Josh Horowitz?

  What's the wallpaper on your phone?

• 49:50Speaker 01

  My daughter says Ian Louis.

• 49:53Josh Horowitz?

  The last actor you were mistaken for?

• 49:58Speaker 01

  I don't, I don't get mis... I think my face is so strange. It's very difficult for people to confuse me with other people. But I do all the time, like, I get people really excited to meet me from, like, Shameless days. And they'll be like, "Yo, Carl," or "Yo, Liam." "Liam Gallagher's my favorite," like, you know. And I'm just like, "That's not my..."

• 50:22Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 50:22Speaker 01

  That's, you're thinking of a different, you're thinking of a different character.

• 50:26Josh Horowitz?

  To wrap up our therapy session, you think you look strange? Your face is strange? You're not happy with your face, you're saying?

• 50:31Speaker 01

  My face?

• 50:31Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 50:32Speaker 01

  I love my face. I just think it's very distinct. I, I don't get confused for people very often, I guess, you know.

• 50:37Josh Horowitz?

  There's only one Jeremy On White.

• 50:39Speaker 01

  There you go.

• 50:40Josh Horowitz?

  Worst noted director has ever given you?

• 50:44Speaker 01

  Smile More. Yeah.

• 50:46Josh Horowitz?

  Right.

• 50:47Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 50:48Josh Horowitz?

  In the spirit of Happy Second Fuse, an actor who always makes you happy. You see them on screen, you're in a better mood.

• 50:53Speaker 01

  Ooh, ooh, ooh.

• 50:59Speaker 01

  Bill Murray.

• 51:00Josh Horowitz?

  Nice. What's your go-to, Bill Murray? It's your Matt Rushmore.

• 51:05Speaker 01

  Probably Lost in Translation, which isn't his, like, you know, necessarily...

• 51:09Josh Horowitz?

  Funny, but still.

• 51:09Speaker 01

  But I think to watch that movie even in a sad, like, it's like, you, you feel like you're not alone. I guess I should say, yeah.

• 51:18Josh Horowitz?

  It's not a film about loneliness, like, Springsteen's Over Me From Nowhere, Double Bill.

• 51:22Speaker 01

  Totally.

• 51:23Josh Horowitz?

  Connecting it.

• 51:23Speaker 01

  Excellent Double Bill.

• 51:25Josh Horowitz?

  And a movie that makes you sad?

• 51:29Speaker 01

  I mean, I saw Hamlet in Telly Ride, and I haven't been that devastated walking out of a theater. And I saw them after, and it was embarrassing, because I was like...

• 51:44Speaker 01

  I didn't have anything for them. And I wish I could have talked to them later about it. And I'd done something with Jessie before and I know her and I wanted to just be like, "You're the greatest," because she is. But instead, I was just kind of like, "You..." You know, it was really bad. Hopefully, I'll find her soon, be able to talk to her about it.

• 52:06Josh Horowitz?

  They're probably gonna get a lot of that, just people just like seeing them and dispersed into tears.

• 52:09Speaker 01

  Totally, yeah.

• 52:10Josh Horowitz?

  A food that makes you confused. You don't get it.

• 52:15Speaker 01

  I'm like, "Do I get myself into trouble here?"

• 52:17Josh Horowitz?

  It's not.

• 52:17Speaker 01

  Like, these like pizzas thin. This like Chicago, thick, like too bready.

• 52:25Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 52:26Speaker 01

  We don't eat all that bread. You can't be doing all this.

• 52:29Josh Horowitz?

  Where are you on Detroit style, the whole?

• 52:31Speaker 01

  Detroit's thin and rectangular, right? Like pub style. Is that right?

• 52:35Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 52:36Speaker 01

  Can be like cracker thin. One of my favorite places in Chicago is Vito and Nick's. It's pub style, which I think is like Detroit.

• 52:42Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 52:42Speaker 01

  And it's almost like a cracker and then you've got the cheese and the toppings and the sauce.

• 52:47Josh Horowitz?

  Right.

• 52:48Speaker 01

  And that's like, that's excellent.

• 52:49Josh Horowitz?

  That's a vehicle, a vehicle to put stuff on.

• 52:52Speaker 01

  Absolutely, absolutely.

• 52:53Josh Horowitz?

  Pineapple on pizza?

• 52:55Speaker 01

  Not for me. I mean, do your thing, I guess, if you're weird.

• 52:59Josh Horowitz?

  I'm not gonna hang out with you, but sure.

• 53:00Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm not gonna stop you.

• 53:03Josh Horowitz?

  Finally, am I gonna see you on the stage here at some point? Is that on the West?

• 53:06Speaker 01

  I would love to do that. I really would, yeah. It's hard now with the young kids that are in school in LA. But, but yes, if I could find like a summer, like, you know, three month run or something like that, totally. I would love to, I'd love to.

• 53:22Josh Horowitz?

  I'm glad this happened. I'm glad this happened for this film. It's a really special one, man. Congratulations to you, to Scott, to everybody involved. Springsteen, Deliver Me From Nowhere, keep collecting your Springsteen merch. Next time I see you, it's gonna be...

• 53:34Speaker 01

  I want a Springsteen memorabilia.

• 53:35Josh Horowitz?

  Wall to wall.

• 53:36Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 53:37Josh Horowitz?

  No, honestly, man, congratulations on this and thank you for the time today.

• 53:40Speaker 01

  I really appreciate you. Nice talking to you, man.

• 54:04Speaker 06

  Hey, I'm Ashley, host of Crime Salad. And every week, my husband Ricky joins me as my partner in crime. We know the true crime space is crowded, so we skip the loud, bubbly small talk and get straight to the facts of the most gripping cases. If you want to see what we're all about, check out our recent two-parter deep dive, She Saved Him, Can You Save Her? Covering the baffling Rebecca Zahau case. If you want a true crime podcast that feels authentic and respects the details, come check us out. Search Crime Salad wherever you get your podcasts.