Freakonomics Radio
Hosted by Stephen J. Dubner
Measuring workplace morale -- and how to game the sick-day system.
1,710 words · 8 speakers
Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.
Freakonomics Radio is sponsored by PNC Bank. Boring. Great word, bad rep. Yet, time and time again, here at Freakonomics, we find that when something culture-changing happens, boring things like calculations and careful planning are usually behind it. Which begs the question, why not apply it to other aspects of life? Like banking, for example? Well, PNC Bank did, since its inception, proving time and again that the best banking strategy isn't the exciting type, but the steady, reliable, definitely-not-yolo type. PNC Bank: brilliantly boring since 1865. "Brilliantly boring since 1865" is a registered mark of the PNC Financial Services Group, Inc. PNC Bank, National Association, Member FDIC.
Freakonomics Radio is sponsored by Hotels.com. Hotels.com helps you find and book the right stay for work faster. With business preferences, save your travel must-haves, like gym access or breakfast, just once, then get tailored results whenever you search for work-travel. Plus, with a free membership, you can save up to 20% on hotels and earn rewards on every stay for future travel. Book now at Hotels.com. Visit Hotels.com for details.
Freakonomics Radio is sponsored by Amica. You know what they say, if you want to go fast, go alone. If you want to go far, go together. So, go with Amica and get coverage from a mutual insurer that's built for their customers, one that looks after what's important to you together. Auto, home, life, and more, coverage that fits your unique needs. Amica helps you protect what matters most. Visit amica.com and get a quote today.
Freakonomics Radio is sponsored by ChatGPT. ChatGPT Work is a new way to work in ChatGPT. ChatGPT Work can pull info from across your apps and connect to your tools to help you create finished work. You can even automate work in ChatGPT with the Scheduled Tasks feature, and the whole time, you stay in control. Put ChatGPT to work on your most ambitious ideas and projects. Get started at chatgpt.com by selecting Work Mode, available on Plus and Pro plans.
From APM, American Public Media and WNYC,
this is Freakonomics Radio on Marketplace. Here's the host of Marketplace, Kai Rizdal.
Time now for a little bit of Freakonomics Radio, that moment in the broadcast every couple of weeks where we talk to Stephen Dubner, the co-author of the books and the blog of the same name. It is The Hidden Side of Everything. Dubner, good to talk to you again.
Great to talk to you, Kai. And I got a question for you.
All right, shoot.
Are you pretty happy with your job?
Am I pretty happy? Most days, yeah.
Tell me this, what about your coworkers? How's their employee morale, would you say?
It depends on how heavy the beatings are. But no, actually, they're doing all right.
You know, workplace morale is something, especially in an economy like this, is something that's really worth thinking about. It translates directly into productivity. Low morale, bad for the bottom line. Good morale is kind of a tide that lifts all boats. Now, here's Michael Johnson, who studies organizational behavior at the University of Washington.
A lot of the current research on employee morale and managing people in general in organizations suggests that this may be the only remaining competitive advantage that organizations have. Organizations that do this well, they tend to do really well financially, too.
But Kai, let me run an interesting wrinkle past you. In a tough job market like this one, fewer people quit their jobs, less than 2 million a month now compared to more than 3 million before the recession, which means that more grumpy employees are staying put.
Right, so they're staying put because they're worried that they can't find another job, right?
Exactly.
All right. How do you measure grumpiness?
Well, unfortunately, that's the problem. It's hard. A lot of firms do surveys, but personally, in my work that I've
Here's the thing, for HR managers everywhere, we all lie on those surveys.
Yeah, exactly. We lie on most surveys, but especially, you know, how happy are you? And I'm the person who pays you, and I need you to tell me how happy you are.
Exactly, that's right.
So sometimes you have to get creative. We actually put this question out to readers on our Freakonomics blog. And we got some good answers. Here's Damon Bevan. He's a software engineer in Lexington, Kentucky. He used to visit lots of different companies. Here's how he sussed out worker morale in those places.
I looked for the number of Dilbert comments, and that seemed to be inverse proportional to the level of morale. A lot of Dilbert comments seem to be like a passive aggressive way of employee complaining.
This is good. First of all, I love the Dilbert index, but also I love that we're crowdsourcing this segment now. That's awesome.
Of course, you know, we've cut down here. I don't know if you knew, but all right, try this one. This is from a management consultant named Tim Wadlow. He visited more than 100 manufacturing companies around the world. He came to believe that parking direction is an indicator of employee morale. Here's what Wadlow saw at the companies that had low morale.
A lot of these people seemed very anxious to leave work, and often as they got to work, they would back their cars into their parking spot. And it seemed like maybe the moment they got to work, they were so dreading it that they were planning their escape.
I like that. That's great. Now, that doesn't apply here at Marketplace World Headquarters, because our parking lot is mandated nose in parking only.
That's a way to keep morale high, force people to park that way.
You must, you must. Okay, this is good anecdotal evidence, the key phrase being there, anecdotal, my friend.
Exactly. What you really want to know is you want to keep your eye on sick days, because calling in sick, especially when you're not sick, is kind of, you know, the ultimate expression of bad morale.
Well, yeah, but what, I mean, come on, HR is going to call everybody who calls in sick and says, I need to know from your doctor. What are we, 12?
Not going to happen, unfortunately. Michael Johnson, the UW professor we heard from earlier, he investigated a pair of auto parts plants that tried out a variety of incentives. Some were carrots, some were sticks. They wanted to cut down on absenteeism. He found that the combination of threat and reward actually worked very well. But he also found an interesting loophole, a little something we call the FMLA or the Family Medical Leave Act. Are you familiar with that?
Yeah, you bet. It's to get time off to care for a sick, injured, whatever, family member, yeah.
Exactly, the federal law. Now, when the company made it harder to call in sick the old way, some employees found a new way. Here's Michael Johnson.
Overall absenteeism dropped about four to four and a half days, but the absenteeism that was related to the FMLA went up about a day or day and a half over the year. So it seemed to us, they might actually be gaming the system so that they could keep taking days off work and not suffer any punishment for it.
Right. So it took us a while to get there, but this is the hidden side, right? This is the unintended consequences of all that stuff.
That's exactly right. And, you know, at the end of the day, isn't it nice to know that whenever you're feeling down and need a little me time, the federal government is there to give you a day off?
Stephen Dubner, Freakonomics.com is the website. He's back in a couple of weeks. Talk to you later.
Thanks much, Guy.
Freakonomics Radio is sponsored by EverPure. Is the value of AI not living up to the promise? The problem is probably your data, not your AI models. When it's scattered across different systems, getting your data AI-ready is a challenge. You keep your AI waiting and everything slows down. EverPure unifies your data so you can see it, understand it, and control it all from one simple place and get it AI-ready fast. Unlock the true value of your AI at everpuredata.com.
Freakonomics Radio is sponsored by Ozempic. Innovation happens through rethinking what's possible, and when it comes to GLP-1s, Ozempic Pill does just that. Learn more about Ozempic semaglutide tablets, 4 and 9mg, by calling 1-833-OZEMPIC or visit ozempic.com to view the medication guide and ask your doctor what's possible with FDA-approved Ozempic Pill.
This podcast is supported by Nurtec ODT, Remedy Pant. We know you didn't ask for an interruption, but migraine doesn't wait for the right moment to interrupt either. It just barges in, takes your time, and throws everything off. So when migraine takes your time, take Nurtec. It's for the acute treatment of migraine with or without aura in adults. Nurtec can provide pain relief in two hours, which can last up to two days. Ask your healthcare provider if Nurtec is right for you, because your time is for you, not migraine. Don't take if allergic to Nurtec ODT. Allergic reactions can occur even days after use. Get help right away for trouble breathing, rash, swelling of face, mouth, tongue, or throat. High blood pressure and Raynaud's Syndrome can occur. Get help for high blood pressure, numbness, coolness, pain, or color changes in fingers
and toes. Common side effect is nausea. For full prescribing information, call 1-833-4-NURTEC or visit Nurtec.com. All right, back to your podcast, playlist, or whatever's keeping you going today.
This episode is brought to you by Charles Schwab. Is there a right time to sell a stock? Are you taking the right risks with your portfolio? Financial decisions can be tricky, and often your own cognitive and emotional biases can lead you astray. Financial Decoder, an original podcast from Charles Schwab, can help. Join host Mark Reapy as he offers practical solutions to help overcome the cognitive and emotional biases that may affect your investing decisions. Listen at schwab.com/financialdecoder.
Page updated September 30, 2026 · transcript and summary are machine-generated
