#1119 Nicolette Hartman On How To Hire The Best Talent For Your Business

Nicolette Hartman is a Partner at Daversa Partners. In this conversation, we discuss the recruiting market, the changes in the economic environment, how to hire great talent, finding the right fit in at company, and how you as a candidate can navigate the job market. ======================= The number one name in NFT domains and the world’s most powerful wallet are teaming up to bring something new to the crypto and Web3 world: That’s right, Unstoppable Domains and Blockchain.com partnered to create NFT domain names ending in . Blockchain. It’s the perfect ending to show that you’re a believer in a decentralized future. The Blockchain.com community can get one, for free by signing up for the waitlist here. Free NFT domains provide all the benefits of premium Unstoppable Domains, including fee-free, lifelong ownership. Don’t have a Blockchain.com wallet? No worries, these new domains are available to everyone for as low as $5. Either sign up for a free blockchain.wallet or visit Unstoppabledomains.com to buy your domain today. ================== Arculus is the next generation crypto & NFT cold storage wallet that combines one of the world’s strongest security protocols with the easiest to use form factor and app. Arculus requires 3-Factor Authentication to ensure only you have access to your digital assets – something you know – a PIN, something you have – the Arculus Key Card, and biometrics. Learn more and buy it now on getarculus.com. Use promo code POMP to save 15%. Remember, with Arculus, it’s your keys, your crypto. ======================= Amberdata provides the critical data infrastructure enabling financial institutions to participate in the digital asset class. We deliver comprehensive data and insights into blockchain networks, crypto markets, and decentralized finance. Download our Digital Asset Data Guide at https://www.amberdata.io/pomp ======================= Valour (formerly DeFi Technologies) represents what’s next in the digital economy -- providing simplified, trusted access to crypto, decentralized finance and Web 3.0 investment opportunities. Institutions and investors can gain diversified, secure, compliant, and easily tradable access to a diversified set of industry-leading equity products and protocols, through a single stock purchase on a regulated exchange. Currently listed on U. S. (OTC: DEFTF) and Canadian (NEO:DEFI) exchanges. For more information or to subscribe to receive company updates and financial information, visit our website at valour.com ======================= LMAX Digital - the market-leading solution for institutional crypto trading & custodial services - offers clients a regulated, transparent and secure trading environment, together with the deepest pool of crypto liquidity. LMAX Digital is also a primary price discovery venue, streaming real-time market data to the industry’s leading analytics platforms. LMAX Digital - secure, liquid, trusted. Learn more at LMAXdigital.com/pomp ======================= The Pod Pro Cover by Eight Sleep is the most advanced solution on the market for thermoregulation. It pairs dynamic cooling and heating with biometric tracking. Even better? Eight Sleep recently launched the next generation of the Pod. The new Pod 3 enables more accurate sleep and health tracking with double the amount of sensors, delivering you the best sleep experience on Earth. Go to eightsleep.com/pomp =======================

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:02Anthony Pompliano?

  What's up everyone, this is Anthony Pompliano. Most of you know me as Pomp. You're listening to the Pomp Podcast, simply the best podcast out there. Now let's kick this thing off. Nicolette Hartman is a partner at Diversa Partners. In this conversation, we talk about the recruiting market, how it's responding to changes in the economic environment, what it takes to hire great talent, how you as a candidate can navigate the job market, and where candidates and companies are coming in and actually finding great fits culturally and economically. I really enjoyed this conversation and I hope you guys enjoy it as well. Once you get done listening, go ahead and jump on Twitter and let me know what you think. This episode is brought to you by Unstoppable Domains. They've partnered with blockchain.com to create NFT domain names ending in .blockchain.

• 0:47Anthony Pompliano?

  It's the perfect ending to show that you're a believer in a decentralized future. The blockchain.com community can join a short waitlist to get one for free at blockchain.com/ waitlist/ blockchaindomain. Free NFT domains provide all the benefits of premium unstoppable domains, including fee-free lifelong ownership. If you don't have a blockchain.com wallet, no worries, there's new free domains available to everyone. Either join the waitlist for a free blockchain.com domain, or visit unstoppabledomains.com to buy your domain today, starting as low as $5. Unstoppabledomains.com This episode is brought to you by Arculus. Arculus is the next generation crypto and NFT cold storage wallet that combines one of the world's

• 1:29Anthony Pompliano?

  strongest security protocols with the easiest to use form factor and app. They have three-factor authentication and you can use your PIN and Arculus keycard along with biometrics. They don't compromise your holdings by requiring a USB port, charging, or browser connections. With Arculus, you're protected from hackers and institutions freezing your access. Learn more today and buy it now at getarculus.com. You can use promo code Pomp to save 15%. Getarculus.com, use promo code Pomp. And remember, with Arculus, it's your keys, your crypto. This episode is brought to you by Amber Data. If you're a financial institution entering the digital asset class, you'll need access to granular on-chain and market Data from multiple venues to power research, trading, risk management and compliance.

• 2:14Anthony Pompliano?

  Amber data delivers comprehensive data and insights into blockchain networks, crypto markets and decentralized finance, empowering financial institutions to apply traditional finance methods to digital assets. Amber data eliminates the infrastructure setup, integrated challenges and maintenance headaches to access digital assets data, reducing cost and time to market to enter the digital asset class. Learn more and download their digital asset data guide at www.amberdata.io/pomp. Again, that's amberdata.io/pomp. Go check them out today.

• 2:46Speaker 01

  Anthony Pompliano runs Pomp Investments. All views of him and the guests on his podcast are solely their opinions and do not reflect the opinions of Pomp Investments. You should not treat any opinion expressed by Pomp or his guests as a specific inducement to make a particular investment or follow a particular strategy, but only as an expression of his personal opinion. This podcast is for informational purposes only.

• 3:10Anthony Pompliano?

  All right, guys. Bang, bang. I've got Nicolai here with me. I thought a great place to start would be the recruiting market is one of these things where when companies are flushed with cash, they got to hire people. So I'm assuming business is good. When the market goes down, companies get a little bit more stingy, but they still need to hire people. So what goes on in the recruiting market when we hit recessions or bad times, stuff like that? Like, how does the market change?

• 3:33Speaker 02

  It's a great question. So the good news is, is even the most conservative investors believe that talent is a company's greatest asset. And so what you find, what you found in June, right? When the market started resetting is people took a really deep look at what was happening within their companies. And fast forward, we've seen how companies are resetting their businesses today. In the world of executive recruiting, it was taking a really hard look in the mirror and seeing what was acceptable with your leadership team and what needed to be replaced with your leadership team. And so right now, I'd say the past quarter, we've been doing a lot of these replacement

• 4:12Speaker 02

  searches, bringing on new leaders that are better for today's environment than the environment of 2021. When everything was up, up, up. And so that's one part of it. The second part is there's still $600 billion of capital sitting within investors that needs to be deployed. And we're starting to see that be deployed right now. And we will continue to see it over the next several years. So there's also a significant amount of companies that did not need to reset valuations, that did not need to do layoffs, that did grow incredibly smart, that are still hiring at the same pace that they were prior to this. But you just don't hear about those as much in the news as you do some of the companies who are doing layoffs

• 4:56Speaker 02

  and resetting valuations today. So it's it's kind of two camps of it right now. Fortunately, even in recessions, like recession-proof companies need talent and they need to grow.

• 5:08Anthony Pompliano?

  So you mentioned this, like, the team for the environment. And people have heard quite often this idea of like a peacetime CEO, a wartime CEO. Sometimes those can be the same person, sometimes they're not. But we always focus on the CEO. What you're really highlighting is like, well, maybe there's an executive team that is set up for good times, but they actually suck during the bad times. And other times, there's companies that have executive teams that can do both. When you do the replacement search, like, how urgent is it? Is this a thing where it's like, we just got rid of somebody? We need somebody back in this role in, you know, 30 days? Or are they usually saying, hey, we got rid of a role? Maybe it's not so much because of the person. It's more so because we don't need that role right now,

• 5:51Anthony Pompliano?

  given what we're doing as a business or the market. And so we've got some time, but let's start it and try to find the right person.

• 5:57Speaker 02

  Because Diversa's, the bulk of the work we do is with emerging growth companies. The majority of our searches are company Series B, Series C stage. It's always urgent. So that answer is just, it's always urgent. And executive search isn't an overnight thing. It's also not really a 30-day thing. It really, on average, takes 90 to 120 days because the people that founders, CEOs, boards want to bring on to these teams, to these growing businesses, are in amazing jobs. They're not actively looking. They're being compensated well. They're super happy and they're heads down, working really hard. And so it takes a few months to recruit a great executive. And so that just adds to the urgency. Because oftentimes founders, boards, CEOs know,

• 6:41Speaker 02

  okay, this is going to take the next several months. I need to get started right now, or actually I probably should have gotten started a month ago. And that's often what we hear when someone comes to us, ready to go on a search and we say, you know, what's the level of urgency? Like, where are you guys? And they're like, we should have started this a couple of months ago, because we now realize how long this is going to take.

• 6:58Anthony Pompliano?

  So for most of the candidates that you're placing in these executive roles, are these candidates that you all already have some relationship with? Like, you've almost been like, pre-vetting, trying to understand who the best talent is, establish a relationship, and then you're like, hey, I'll come to you if I ever have an open role? Or are these people that, when you're trying to fill an executive role, this is the first time you're talking to some of these candidates, and you're basically saying like, hey, I know we don't know each other, but there's this great role, you know, are you interested in potentially looking at it?

• 7:24Speaker 02

  It's a combination of both. And so, anyone looking to hire a search firm should for sure evaluate their network and get an understanding of the searches they've done in the past, who they've hired to show their reach and their scale. But we're also headhunters. Like, I use that old school term really often. Like, our job is to go figure out who the best people are for a company, based on a variety of different parameters. And regardless of if we know them or we don't know them, we're going to go get them. So I've been doing this for a decade, and I'd say, of the hundreds of searches I've done, probably half of the people I've placed knew Diversa before we made that phone call, and the other half didn't. And that really is a testament to just like our style and our approach and our process.

• 8:09Speaker 02

  So it's a combination.

• 8:10Anthony Pompliano?

  When you have to go do kind of the classic headhunting, LinkedIn, Twitter, what platform is the most effective?

• 8:18Speaker 02

  It's not Twitter, I can tell you.

• 8:19Anthony Pompliano?

  Really? I have a theory. Twitter is what LinkedIn should have been. It is lethal from a networking standpoint, if you know how to use it correctly.

• 8:27Speaker 02

  If you know how to use it correctly. There you go. So maybe with the new ownership of Twitter, Twitter will become the next great executive search platform, but it's definitely not my go-to right now.

• 8:38Anthony Pompliano?

  So LinkedIn?

• 8:39Speaker 02

  LinkedIn for sure. We obviously have an internal database that we use, and so we use that, we use LinkedIn. And then we use our network in the sense of just picking up the phone and asking people, hey, here's what I'm working on. Do you know for this? Who should I talk to? Because then you also know that this is someone who you know in your network that you trust. And if they're speaking highly of someone else, and that's how a network builds. It's really starting with who you know and who's great at what they do and asking their opinion on who else they think is great. So it's a combination of all of those things. I mean, there's also certain times where many amazing people actually don't have a LinkedIn. And so you go on to companies' websites, you use the modern version of Yellow Pages, which is Google.

• 9:23Speaker 02

  And you try to find people's contact info and you try to build relationships with them the old school way, too. So it's a combination of all those things.

• 9:31Anthony Pompliano?

  When you all are talking internally and somebody's like, oh, they're great to work with, meaning a corporation that is a partner with you all and you're doing searches for them. What are the things that make them great? And then vice versa, without using names, if there's somebody who you're like, ah, you know, maybe we won't work with them again. What are the things that they're doing that put them in that category? And how do you all think about like, what makes a good partner and what doesn't make a good partner? As you're trying to help them ultimately fill a role that they have open?

• 10:00Speaker 02

  Yes, so trust, transparency and communication. That is what makes a great search partner. So what do I mean by that? It is going into the relationship, knowing that your search partner has the best interest for the company. They're not looking for just a quick fill of a role. Why? Well, we really care about building long-term relationships because we work with companies that are emerging growth. So seed, series A, B, C, pre-IPO.

• 10:28Speaker 02

  We hope that this isn't the first search that we do with you. We want to build a long-term relationship. We want to be there for you when you are doing your first executive hires at series A. And then the next round at series C or when you're going through an exit. So we want to build a long-term relationship. And so I think knowing most founders that we work with. Most of them, this is their first company that they're building. We have not built companies, but we have built hundreds of leadership teams. And so there needs to be this element of trust with it. It is not a transactional relationship. So communication, your search partner should communicate what a great process should look like. It should not be a, hey, just trust us, this person's amazing. They should be able to walk you through a really thorough process that you, as the client,

• 11:12Speaker 02

  feel really good about, knowing, okay, the search firm is vetting them, they're doing their references, and we're vetting them through a thorough process. But there is an element of sometimes saying, hey, listen, you need to move forward. You're going to lose this person. Like, you need to make them an offer. And we will, we, people pay us for our opinion, too. Like, we have a very intimate, deep perspective of the market because of our network. And so there does need to be an element of over-communicating, both on the client, on the search partner's side and on the client's side. And on the client's side, you need to share the information of the company with us. You know, oftentimes, we have clients pitch us as if we were investors in the companies.

• 11:53Speaker 02

  Because what the reason is, is I know what every candidate is gonna say when I call them about this company. I know every reason why they're gonna say, I'm not interested, thanks, I'm in a great job. So I need to get ahead of those things. And so we poke a lot of holes in businesses to really understand, why is this recession-proof? Are you guys burning cash? When are you gonna have to raise again? Because we need to be able to bring comfort to candidates that know this is a startup that's really gonna make it.

• 12:19Anthony Pompliano?

  How sophisticated are the candidates in underwriting that stuff? I'm assuming the best executives are lethal in terms of their ability to underwrite these companies?

• 12:27Speaker 02

  They are, and because of the current state of the market, they're way more sophisticated than they ever have been before. So candidates now are really evaluating businesses as if they were investors in the company.

• 12:38Anthony Pompliano?

  Interesting.

• 12:39Speaker 02

  So every search that we're starting now and have been over the past quarter, and we've kind of been like this always, but even with a different level of scrutiny, is, hey, client, you need to be prepared to have the conversation with candidates, the financial conversation, day one. Not, that used to be like the last step in the process, is like- Okay, let me show you our cap table. Let me show you our cash burn. Let me show you our bank statements. Like, let me show you that don't worry, this is okay. That happens very early in the process now. And so, communication, trust, like, we are going to always set up our clients for success. And that is one of the things we're telling people now.

• 13:18Anthony Pompliano?

  It makes sense, though, right? From a candidate's perspective, I have a friend who had started a company, but the three companies he worked at beforehand, all went from like, seed stage to like, home runs. I remember being like, hey, man, like, you should be an investor. Like, you're pretty good at picking these things. He's like, no, I have been an investor. And I was like, what do you mean? And he goes, I'm about to make an investment of my most valuable resource, which is my time. And so, of course, that's how I underwrite it, is as an investor. And it just, like, changed the way I thought about this. So it makes sense that candidates, especially the executive level, who are supposed to be sophisticated, who are supposed to understand how these businesses work, would underwrite it in that way, because they not only have their time, but especially if they're well-known or good at their jobs, their reputation that they're tying to some of these companies as well. And that can either further your career, or it could

• 14:02Anthony Pompliano?

  potentially put kind of a step backwards, that they then have to go and kind of recover from.

• 14:06Speaker 02

  Yep. And that's, so that's the science side of it. But then there was the art element.

• 14:10Anthony Pompliano?

  Okay.

• 14:10Speaker 02

  And that's culture, and finding the right culture fit. And so, we spend a lot of time upfront, really understanding the person at the end of the day. I met a founder the other day, he had someone coming in for a meeting before he had gone retained with us. And he said, how should I evaluate this candidate? And I said, before you even start asking them, you know, the sales partners that they brought on board, how they think about hiring a great sales team, all of the typical questions you ask a sales leader, ask them where they were born. Ask them how they grew up. Ask them about some of the challenges that they've overcome in their life as an individual. What makes them who they are as a person? Because when you're 10 people in a room, 20 people in a room, 50 people in a room, culture is as important as a skillset is when

• 14:54Speaker 02

  you're growing a company in your early days. I think it's important, always, but especially in the earlier days of a company's lifecycle. And so, this comes back to the communication. Tell me who you are as a person. Hey, founder, why are you the way that you are? And so we spend a lot of time really understanding the person and the mission and why they started this company, what their goals are long term, short term, long term. Um, cause we obviously also want to be able to sell it better than they can in market.

• 15:20Anthony Pompliano?

  Do you ever see red flags? Do you ever like talk to a founder and you're like, we thought that this was going to be a great opportunity because of press or anything like that, but then you all meet the founder and you're like, this may not be as easy as a sell or like we may not be aligned in terms of sending candidates that we think highly of to these companies.

• 15:37Speaker 02

  Yeah, definitely. I think it comes back to those three things, trust, transparency and communication. If I have a client who wants this person who's, I can tell you is not the right person for what they need and we can't have a healthy dialogue and I can't show them, hey, listen, I hear you. I understand why you want the VP of engineering at Google, but you're a 10 person company and today you probably need someone who's been in a company that has built. Like if we can't have a healthy dialogue and you know, our goal is to get what our founders want, but we also spend a lot of time helping define what the right thing for the company, what the right, who the right person for the company is.

• 16:17Speaker 02

  And so there has to be an element of partnership, like this is your search partner. It has to be a partnership. And if we feel like there's no partnership at the end of the day, then we're not going to be able to successfully close. And there's give and take on both sides, right? Every search we do is incredibly challenging. That's why we exist because it's super hard. We recruit the 1% of, of executives in the world. Um, so it's not easy, but there has to be an element of partnership to it in order for it to be successful.

• 16:46Anthony Pompliano?

  Are there elements of a 10 person company that could make the VP at some large corporation, or somebody who's very high up leave and actually join the 10 person company that you've seen?

• 16:56Speaker 02

  Yeah. I think that really comes down to-

• 16:58Anthony Pompliano?

  What is the secret?

• 16:59Speaker 02

  I think it's personal passion and this goes back to, you know, if you're going to join something that early, my guess is they're not turning a profit. They have a lot of work to do, but if someone, if there is someone who is so burningly passionate about what this company is doing, and that kind of goes back to like the art side, like there's a culture element that is so important to that person that they have to be a part of this mission, solving this problem because probably ties back to something that happened in that person's life. That probably would be the thing that does it. But I also still don't know if that person's right for that company. Right? Like, that person is managing a lot of people. They're not the one writing code today. So that's where we go back to, sure, even if you could get that person,

• 17:43Speaker 02

  does that necessarily mean they're the right person for you today? And we've seen it happen. We've done it. But it's, it's really about, let's define what the problem is that needs to be solved today. And then who's the right person to solve today's problem? Because that's also really different than the person who's going to solve the problem two years from now.

• 17:59Anthony Pompliano?

  So one of the things I see founders make the mistake over and over and over again is exactly what you're talking about here, where they have a company. It is promising. It's working. It's headed in the right direction. And they're like, if only we can hire this person. And it's always somebody who is two to three stages further along than what they probably need. And I always say like, the risk in that is that person's used to managing people, not doing the work. Right? But when those opportunities pop up, how do you all talk to the company about, do you pass on the person? Do you try to hire them as like a, maybe a advisor or something? And then eventually bring them on full time? Like, how do you kind of navigate where there actually may be interest from both the candidate

• 18:44Anthony Pompliano?

  and the company and each other? But do you all take an opinion as to like, maybe this isn't actually the right time for you all to do this?

• 18:50Speaker 02

  Oh, 100%. And this goes back to like, people pay us for our opinions as well on the market. So my, when that happens, and it happens all the time, I say, why? Why do you want that person? Because oftentimes, I don't think, when you're building a company, and I'm not a founder, so there's a lot of things I don't know about building a company. But what I do know is what someone's skill set is. And so I often say, why? Why do you think that that's the right person for you right now? And I often find that they don't actually realize what that person's day to day job is. And that goes back to your point of, they're sitting in board meetings. They're talking to investors. They're managing thousands of people. You have a 10 person, 20 person, 30 person company. What you want is someone on that person's team, or someone who worked for them in a past

• 19:34Speaker 02

  life, someone who they have mentored and trained, because likely the person that they're pointing to is truly the best in the entire world. But at one point, they weren't. And so they grew, and they grew other people, and they built, and they... So you want that person 10 years ago. So if you want to go find who... 5 years ago, you want to go find who that person is today, who becomes that person for you as the company grows. And so it's, again, it goes back to that dialogue, that transparency, that communication, and kind of working backwards to unpack what's the problem, who's the right person to solve it.

• 20:05Anthony Pompliano?

  How much does money enter into the conversation when you're trying to recruit, you know, the big hire, right? If you're a startup, you just raised $20 million, everyone thinks that you're the greatest thing ever, and you go to a candidate, and you're just like, "I'll just pay $5 million bucks, cash, come work here." Does that move the needle for a lot of these candidates? Or is it something that they're willing to say, "Hey, it's important, but it might not be the most important thing." And so, "I will take it into consideration, but actually, let me look at these other things." Like, how do you see candidates reacting to really big, almost egregious, offers from the employment side?

• 20:38Speaker 02

  Well, I can tell you that in the 10 years that I've been doing this, I don't think I've ever seen a $20 million company write a $5 million check for a candidate. And I actually have multiple times, even for, you know, people ask us for guidance on how do I get this person, what's the right offer. There are many times that I've said, "Listen, I love it, I love that you're willing to do this, but this is probably not a good idea." Like, you should prob... If you only have $20 million raised, you should definitely not be spending $5 million in cash to get someone. You should go get the right person. You should want to give them equity. That person should want to be bought into the business at this size and stage. But yeah, offers make a huge impact in what you're willing to do.

• 21:19Speaker 02

  And we are always guiding clients on, "Here's what it will take to get this person. Here's what you need to be willing to do." And that often goes back to kind of resetting expectations. "Hey, you want the chief product officer of LinkedIn? Well, you're not... We can't afford them right now." And again, going back to why they're not right for you. But we always kind of set expectations day one on, "Here's what you..." You need to expect to pay a CFO. Here's what you need to expect to pay a chief marketing officer or a VP of marketing, both from a base, bonus and an equity perspective. So we have a lot of those benchmarks that we're able to share so we can make sure we're all aligned. Because the other thing, trust, transparency, communication is alignment. You got to leave that meeting day one knowing we are all on the same page. We're all working towards the same thing. And so, you know, we call that stuff out very early.

• 22:05Anthony Pompliano?

  As you've seen the market go up a lot in 2021, down a lot in 2022, what is changing with comp? Are people wanting more money? Do they understand that companies might not be willing to invest as much money in certain roles? Like what's changing?

• 22:20Speaker 02

  I would say that comp has always been a really big factor in a decision. It's not the only factor, but it's a big, it's a big factor. Whereas maybe last year, people were more willing to take bigger cash hits in return for enormous equity. People have a much different perspective on equity today. Candidates have always at offer stage, given their own perspective on what they think a company is valued. Going back to your point on they operate as investors. You know, I've, we've had offers made and we say, okay, here's 10x. Here, here's what happens if we 2x, 5x, 10x and the clients will go through that. And the candidate's like, yeah, that's not realistic.

• 23:02Speaker 02

  Like I love this company. I'm excited to join it, but I don't believe that the equity is worth this at 10x. So they've always been, again, operating as investors. But I would say today, because we've seen valuations be cut so much and we know that the next round of investments are going to come with lower valuations and what we've seen in market. Cash is important. People care about cash today. And I know it's not the $5 million check, but I don't think as many executives are willing to take such enormous cash hits. They'll, they're all taking cash hits most of the time for the equity because you can't have everything. But they're definitely like, someone's really got to believe in the outcome of the equity and what that story is.

• 23:47Speaker 02

  And, you know, cash plays a big role today.

• 23:49Anthony Pompliano?

  So if I'm an executive at a big company and I'm like, all right, I'm just tired of working in the bureaucratic environment, what's the best way for me to go about finding a job at what I desire in like a fast growing startup? Like, how do you think about the correct path or like the optimal path for the candidate to end up in a great company?

• 24:08Speaker 02

  I would reach out to a company like Diversa, right? We have such a deep lens into so many companies who don't even have press today, but are incredible companies that if you were just an executive at a big company, you might not even know exists. We also go, going back to like the art side of things, culture, like if you're going to come join a growing company, well, then let's let Diversa understand who you are as a person, what your skill sets are, and we can help figure out when the right opportunity comes around that this is top of, like, we keep you top of mind for the right opportunity. So that would be one thing I would do. And then if you are an executive in a big company and you have friends in the venture capital space, friends in the private equity space, ask them what they're seeing, like,

• 24:52Speaker 02

  educate yourself on sectors that are doing really well. If you're, if you're passionate about a certain sector, go talk to other people in that space and kind of just educate yourself broadly on what companies are doing, who exists, what's exciting. But I would definitely lean on your executive recruiter friends who evaluate companies all day long and are selective about who they'll work with and why, and we're here to help.

• 25:16Anthony Pompliano?

  This episode is brought to you by Valor, which represents what's next in the digital economy. They provide simplified trusted access in crypto, decentralized finance, and web three investment opportunities. Institutions and investors can gain diversified, secure, compliant, and easily tradable access to a diversified set of industry-leading equity products and protocols, all through a single stock purchase on a regulated exchange. They currently are listed in the U.S. under the DEFTF stock ticker and on the Canadian NEO exchange under DEFI. For more information or to subscribe to receive company updates and financial information, visit their website at valour.com. That's V A L O U R dot com. This episode is brought to you by LMAX Digital, the number one

• 25:59Anthony Pompliano?

  Institutional crypto exchange. They offer clients the deepest pool of liquidity and they have 100% uptime track record through all the volatility spikes. LMAX Group's liquidity relationships and ultra-low latency technology means that LMAX Digital is the market-leading solution for institutions across crypto trading and custodial services. LMAX Digital, secure, liquid, and trusted. Go learn more at lmaxdigital.com/pomp. Again, that's lmaxdigital.com/pomp. This episode is brought to you by Eight Sleep. Good sleep is the ultimate game changer and the Eight Sleep Pod is the ultimate sleep machine. The Pod is the only sleep technology that dynamically cools and heats each side of the bed to maintain the optimal sleeping temperature for what your

• 26:41Anthony Pompliano?

  body needs. With the Pod, you can start sleeping as cool as 55 degrees Fahrenheit or as hot as 110 degrees Fahrenheit. What is the result? Clinical data shows that Eight Sleep users experience up to 19% increase in recovery, 32% improvement in sleep quality, and up to 34% more deep sleep. How do I know it works? I sleep on it every single night and it works so well that I begged the founders, let me invest in the company. Go check them out today at eightsleep.com/pomp and save $150 on the Pod. Again, eightsleep.com/pomp and you get $150 off when you use code POMP. You've mentioned culture a few times. I've had experiences throughout my career where I think I've come to the conclusion like there's not good or bad culture. It's more of like, is there

• 27:25Anthony Pompliano?

  a cultural fit where the company and the candidate both agree that they want to work in a certain type of culture? And that's why you see some companies, employees like this is the greatest place I've ever worked. And then other people are like, this place sucks. I can't wait to leave. How do you all think about evaluating the culture? And then also, in some ways, you have to then turn around and be like a cultural salesperson to then go sell the candidate on like, this is the culture you're looking for. This is a culture where you'll be productive and kind of accomplish things you want in your career.

• 27:52Speaker 02

  Yeah. And so that goes back to how much time we spend upfront with founders and teams, right? We go into their offices. We spend hours there. We kind of put like a McKinsey hat on and we integrate ourselves into these companies. And we spend a lot of time with people. And I'd like to think at this point, we're really good. Reading people and understanding people. So as much as we go deep on a company and understand why they're going to be successful, why they're recession proof, what the growth plans are, et cetera. We spend a lot of time on people, values, how they operate day to day, how often they're in the office, how, all of the elements that come into a culture aspect, we evaluate the same way as we do, as the mechanics of the business.

• 28:34Speaker 02

  And so then as we're selling that in market, like we're able to put our story together on it, both inclusive of the business mechanics and the culture aspect.

• 28:43Anthony Pompliano?

  So if I'm a company and let's say I want to hire a CFO, a CMO, kind of one of these executive roles, what should I do? Like what makes me effective in using a firm like you all? But also, what should I be doing either before or during that process to make sure I get the best candidate possible?

• 28:58Speaker 02

  Yeah, so one of the things that I often tell founders and CEOs is think about, if you're a growth company, think about what the, what the main objectives are of the business over the next two years. Don't forecast past that when you're thinking about a role. And sure, you can argue a day here and there. But growing companies, their needs change very often. CFO specifically, it's very common that you'll do a CFO search day, you know, series A, another one at series C, and another one through an exit. Like you need to anticipate, you'll probably have a couple of them. Sure, it'd be great if someone grows into that. And if not, that's okay. You probably need a different person who has raised hundreds of millions of dollars, who has taken a company through an exit before. And that person's really different than your person at series A.

• 29:44Speaker 02

  And so I would walk through, one, the mechanics of the business. If we're talking CFO, a SaaS CFO is really different than a consumer goods CFO. They just, they focus on different margins and they have different relationships. One needs to also understand how to work with supply chain and vendors, and another one doesn't. So understanding the mechanics of your business day one, what the goals are over the next few years, and then working backwards and scoping out here. Here's what I need this person to do over the next two years. And that's where your search partner can say, okay, based on that, here's where we think this person should come from. Here's the different types of profiles we should look at. So that's a place I would start, whether it's. I have to fundraise, or I have to become profitable,

• 30:26Speaker 02

  or I really need a strategic business partner who knows how to increase our margins from an e-commerce perspective, whatever it may be. And it's oftentimes a combination of a lot of those things. Figure out what the problem is and work backwards to solve it. And that's how you should really build a job spec. And that's how a search partner should advise you on what you should need.

• 30:49Anthony Pompliano?

  In that process, how big is like the top of funnel? Right? So I'm trying to fill, let's say, a CFO role. Am I going to talk to 25 candidates? Am I going to talk to five candidates? Am I going to talk to 100 candidates? Like, what do you see? Obviously, I understand there's outliers. Like, what is like the average process kind of filtering? The first round has this many people? And then how many kind of make it to the final stages?

• 31:10Speaker 02

  Yeah, so when we scope out the job at hand and you scope and you include culture, you include location, you include every element of what this company needs. At the end of the day, there's probably only 10 people out there who can do this job and who are right for this job. And our goal is to go get those 10 people in front of you. But then you run into things like, sorry, I can't relocate my family to that location. Or I have $20 million investing over the next two years. Like, I'm not going anywhere. For whatever reason, I'm not passionate about that, to go back that early and build again. That's not what it's going to take to do it. So the list gets short really fast. And our job on like an average search, I would say, a good search, a client should meet five to 10 people. And so we're much more quality over quantity focused.

• 31:55Speaker 02

  And this comes back to the trust element. On our end, we're going to talk to more people than that. We're going to talk to 20, 30, 40 people for a job, sometimes even more than that. But our goal is to get the best five to 10 in front of a client.

• 32:09Anthony Pompliano?

  Remote versus in-person? You mentioned not relocating. There's some people who are like, that sounds insane. People still do that? And there's other people who are like, yeah, of course. And we're all going to go back to the office. There's going to be no such thing as remote. What are you all seeing in terms of the importance that companies placing on it? And then the importance that the candidates are placing on it?

• 32:26Speaker 02

  I have wanted an easy answer to this question for two years. And it's made me frustrated that I still don't have a great answer to it. And that's the reality. If you're like, what's the trend? The trend is it's literally all over the place. Like, I am seeing startups back in office. I'm seeing startups work from home. I'm seeing public companies back in office, public companies in home, and then a combination of it all. So it is all over the place. My opinion is if you are a growing company in the early days, there are so many elements that are very important to be in an office together. And it doesn't have to be five days a week. I do think that the probably the right answer somewhere there is a hybrid model, but a few days a week in an office together.

• 33:10Speaker 02

  Reason being is if you're building a company, your engineering team needs to understand what your operations team is doing and vice versa. And your marketing team needs to be able to walk over to the tech team and say, okay, if we're going to position this in market, I need to understand what we're building and how do I translate that into a consumer's mind? So I just feel like it's a lot easier and more efficient to be in an office together building. I also see the element of, which by the way, that makes my job harder, but I still feel like that's probably the right thing to do. There is an element of, well, if I can have access to that talent that I never would have been able to have access to because I know they can't move and I'm willing to take the bet on them because they're so good at what they do that I know they can do this remote. That's a win as well, too.

• 33:56Speaker 02

  Like people are getting access to talent that they've never had access to before because we have worked in a much more remote world over the past couple of years. I still think that we're five to 10 years away from seeing what the right answer was, right? Companies take about 10 years, you know, to build into big businesses. And so I think in the next five to 10 years, we'll be able to look back and say, wow, here's a winner who did it fully remote, I guess is possible. Or we'll be able to say, wow, here's a company that failed and they were remote. So that's not the right answer. Or we'll have a broader pool of data that kind of says what the right answer is. And maybe it's based on sector, maybe it's based on geography, whatever it is. I just, I don't think we're there yet, but it's all over the place. And we're doing plenty of searches that are fully remote,

• 34:40Speaker 02

  plenty of searches that I need this person in this location.

• 34:44Anthony Pompliano?

  What other trends are you seeing that people are interested in? Obviously, there's like the investment trend. So Bitcoin cryptocurrencies gets very popular now, like generative art and artificial intelligence and all that's popular. There's like American dynamism is another trend that kind of jumps to mind. There's probably many others that are out there. What are you seeing from like the candidate side that they're actually interested in?

• 35:05Speaker 02

  A lot of those that you just covered. People really do care about.

• 35:10Speaker 02

  Making the world a better place. Like as however.

• 35:13Anthony Pompliano?

  It sounds dumb, but it is real.

• 35:15Speaker 02

  It is a real thing. Yes, as cheesy as that sentence sounds, it is a real thing. Like people want to do if they're. When I say people, I'm obviously talking about the the hard charging 1% of executives out there. Like they work incredibly hard, incredibly efficient. They want to wake up every day saying, I am so glad that this is where I'm deploying my time. And so a lot of the topics that you talked about are big ones. Web three, despite everything that's happening right now, people are still excited about it.

• 35:45Speaker 02

  Frontier tech, energy. I think energy and climate are going to be really big over the next several years as we're seeing everything and how that affects our broader global markets and how much opportunity maybe there is for companies to make that whole process much more efficient, as complicated as it is and well above my skis. So healthcare, that's another really, really big trend right now that candidates are excited about because at least here in the US, there are still so many elements of our healthcare system that are fragmented, that are broken, that really need modernization to them. And so those are really big markets and trends right now that we're seeing.

• 36:24Anthony Pompliano?

  So we've talked about like what I'll call industry trends. We've talked about candidate trends. We've also about building these teams around the CEO or a founder. What about we have to replace the CEO? Like you and I have talked before about sometimes literally a board or a company just says, we're changing complete path or the CEO quits, right? It's something that I've seen a couple of times. Like what happens in that scenario? Because it's almost like, who do you partner with at that point? Like who, who are you actually pitching the potential new CEO on working for or with?

• 36:57Speaker 02

  It's mostly the board. Well, it's pretty much always the board. Board, main investors, chairman, whoever really owns the company at that point is the one that we're working with in those scenarios. I feel like it's much less the CEO quit and it's much more the this is no longer the right person for this company.

• 37:16Anthony Pompliano?

  And when you're doing a CEO search, like, is there anything that's different than if you were doing a CFO or CMO search? Or is it all pretty much you're looking for an executive and so a lot of same qualities exist?

• 37:27Speaker 02

  It's just often more decision makers because if you have a. Five-person board versus ultimately, at the end of the day, the CEO is they're hiring a chief marketing officer, CFO. Yes, there's other stakeholders. Yes, you want the rest of the leadership team to be excited about them. Yes, sometimes you ask a board member for advice and opinions and you want their green light. It's really the CEO who is making the hire for their leadership team at the end of the day. When you have a board, you have a handful of people who maybe come from all different types of backgrounds and perspectives, and they need to agree on one person, like the most critical person in a company. So it just becomes a bit of a longer process, more cooks in the kitchen, different level

• 38:07Speaker 02

  of scrutiny and evaluation that goes into it. It's not too dissimilar. It's just more people to make to agree upon a decision.

• 38:16Anthony Pompliano?

  Mm-hmm. Diversa is an interesting company. You all have hundreds of employees, I believe, and you do retained search, not contingency. Describe the difference between retained and contingency and like what the pros and cons in each are.

• 38:30Speaker 02

  So a contingency search is when a company goes to a contingency firm and they say, "Hey, we are looking for a marketing director, VP of marketing. Please send over some resumes." And that's much more of like, we're sending over vetted resumes of people that are much more passively looking or actively looking. Whereas on the retained side, we are hired by the clients. We're not hired by our candidates. We're hired by the clients. Whereas like contingency to me also feels a little bit more, they're working for the candidates. And there's like a candidate element of contingency too, where you are working on behalf of a candidate to help them find a job, which is there's a big candidate element in the work that we do. But at the end of the day, we're hired by a client who says,

• 39:15Speaker 02

  "I need a VP of engineering. Can we are going to hire you to fill this." So with us, it's also we're in the search until the search is closed. There's no time limit on it as well, too. On average, they take a couple of months. But if it takes six months, we're in the search till the search closes. It's like retaining a lawyer for something. So that is the model. And I also think, you know, when you're a services business, you're only as good as your last search. And so our goal is to, of course, efficiently close it within a certain time period. But we need the right person because we also will have to redo the search if it's not the right person. We care much more about building relationships. It's less transactional. So depending on the role.

• 39:54Speaker 02

  Is how you kind of decide which one's the best one for you. There's plenty of amazing contingency firms too. It's just a different model.

• 40:00Anthony Pompliano?

  Uh, let's talk individual examples. Like are there one or two examples that you have where people have actually left companies and then kind of gone through this process? And we can maybe use them as, as the example to, to kind of talk through this?

• 40:13Speaker 02

  Left their current companies to join a growth company?

• 40:16Anthony Pompliano?

  Yes.

• 40:17Speaker 02

  So there's a so many examples of this. Um, I think if we're talking about just the evolution of the web three space, you know, OpenSea just brought in Brian Roberts, who was the CFO of Lyft, saw them through tremendous scale, threw an exit. They brought him on board as CFO, right? And then we are also seeing someone like Pranesh, who was the VP of engineering, uh, VP of, um, HR over at Uber, come join Kraken to be their chief people officer. And so you're seeing these tremendously successful execs who, what's interesting, weren't just at Lyft and Uber when they were massive companies, but they were there through a lot of the early days, a lot of the scale, a lot of the transformation

• 40:58Speaker 02

  and change that those businesses, um, overcame. And then they both went and joined massive exchanges in the web three space. So while it's possible to do it across so many sectors, I think a lot of people right now feel like that's a very challenging one. And is it possible to still get great talent to come join? And the answer is yes. Like-

• 41:15Anthony Pompliano?

  Why do you think they did it? Do you think it's because they were like so inspired by the mission of the company they ended up at? Was it a huge pay package? Is it a combination of things?

• 41:26Speaker 02

  I think at the end of the day, people have this misconception about will web three make it? Like it is all the technology, like the underlying blockchain technology and all the technologies of these companies were already out of the proof of concept phase. Like these are working and just because the market is down right now, just because these will overcome a lot of regulatory challenges, doesn't mean they're not going to exist. And this is what I keep going back to the example of what- Kind of health tech was 10 years ago is very similar. It was new. There were regulatory elements that came with it, but it didn't stop all these amazing executives from saying,

• 42:07Speaker 02

  I want to be a part of the next frontier of what our healthcare system should be. And all these execs are saying, I want to be a part of the next frontier of what the internet and what our experiences, what currencies are going to be like. This is the future and we're in it right now. And these guys want guys, gals, they want to be a part of it. They're willing to take the risk. You know, both of those examples just happened to come from ride sharing companies. You think 10 years ago, people were like, this is going to work. Like this makes sense. Let's revolutionize taxis. Like, I can't even imagine the amount of, you know, people who thought that that was ridiculous, but they did it. And I think these come from high powered, really thoughtful, smart risk takers.

• 42:51Speaker 02

  And again, it's out of the proof of concept phase. It's working. And so it just requires these execs to build it, who have patience, who have been through hard building businesses before. And yeah, I'm sure there's a lot of other reasons that they took the job at the end of the day, but.

• 43:06Anthony Pompliano?

  This is a big piece of it.

• 43:07Speaker 02

  It's a big piece of it.

• 43:09Anthony Pompliano?

  What about people who listen to this or watch it? And they're like, I want to go work at Diversa. Like, what are the types of people who become great recruiters themselves?

• 43:17Speaker 02

  Most of us did not think we would be recruiters one day. None of us went to college. Most of us that said, I want to be an executive recruiter. I didn't even know this was a job. A lot of us had communications backgrounds or business backgrounds. And I think what makes a great recruiter is at the end of the day, curious, we ask a lot of questions. I wanted to, I'll just use myself and speak on behalf of myself. I was a journalism and communications major. I thought I was going to go be in broadcast journalism. And I decided not to take that route. And I didn't really know exactly what I wanted to do, came across executive recruiting. What I found from that is I liked talking to people. I love talking to people. I'm a naturally curious person. I'm asking a lot of questions on both behalf of the businesses

• 44:01Speaker 02

  and candidates that I work with. I like to understand why people are the way. That they are. At the end of the day, it's really professional matchmaking. And so I think if you're someone who is naturally curious, likes learning new things, there's a, there is a sales element to what we do. We have to sell candidates on opportunities and sell clients on the fact that this could be a great fit for you. This is a great candidate. So it has a lot of really interesting business elements. You know, things that investors think about, things that sales leaders think about, things that people leaders think about, kind of all blended together. And if those are things that are exciting and fun for you, then recruiting or executive recruiting is a great path for you.

• 44:43Anthony Pompliano?

  And then when you talked earlier about the types of people who you end up getting referred to on the candidate side, you've talked about referrals on the business side. There's other players in the market. There's investors, there's lawyers, accountants, those types of organizations. Do you all work with them at all in terms of either finding potential partners or learning about companies or anything like that?

• 45:06Speaker 02

  We work really closer with, closely with the investor community. So a lot of the VCs, a lot of the private equity firms, we are very, very close with. And again, it comes from them saying, hey, we just invested in this company. Super excited about them, but they need a new VP of HR. We want you guys to connect with them and give them some guidance on how they should be thinking about this. And so what we'll often do is ask the investors, what did you see in the company? Like, why are you excited about this? And it's just another data point for us to think about the good, the bad, the ugly, right? Nothing's ever perfect. And so we ask all the good. We understand where the challenges are, why do they think they need this role? In addition to hearing it from a founder, it's really great to get the investors' perspective as well, too.

• 45:50Anthony Pompliano?

  Yeah, that makes, that makes sense. What's your favorite part and your least favorite part about the executive search business?

• 45:58Speaker 02

  Wow. Well, I think my favorite part is just, I love meeting people. Like, I really enjoy hearing people's stories and getting to know why someone is the way that they are, why they work the way they do, why they're motivated the way they are. And I also love the fact that I get to have like a firsthand look into new technologies, new ways of thinking about healthcare, new ways of consumer experiences. Like, it's just fascinating to me. I feel like we kind of get a front row seat into things that are going to happen before they happen, before the rest of the world gets to see them. And I think my favorite part is also the fact that CEOs and founders who are building

• 46:43Speaker 02

  tremendous companies, who have multi-billion dollar valued businesses, say, "What do you think I should do about this?" And they ask us what they should do. They ask us how they think about, how they should build their businesses, where they should make a hire. These are really critical decisions that a founder and CEO has to make. And I just think it's really cool that they ask us how they should do it. You my least favorite part?

• 47:04Anthony Pompliano?

  Be honest.

• 47:06Speaker 02

  Um, it's really hard. Like, it's really hard. It's a lot of work. But, you know, it's also kind of fun because that's the challenge of it. I enjoy the challenge of what we do. But it's really hard. It's not a nine to five job when you are headhunting. It is, it is a, has a 24/7 element to it because you have to think about it. A lot of candidates who are heads down in great jobs, they can talk to you at 9:00 PM, they can talk to you on Sunday, they can talk to you on Saturday. They're not going to talk to you within their business hours when they're having meetings with their boss and their team. So you have to be really adaptable to other people's schedules as well, too. And like, sure, that, there's an element of that, that's, that's hard and maybe can be some people's least favorite part.

• 47:50Speaker 02

  But I think the rewards of what we do and what we get to see and who we get to meet, the teams that we feel like we get to build, like, it's so much more rewarding than there is anything that, you know, we don't. There's a reason I've been doing this for 10 years.

• 48:02Anthony Pompliano?

  Yeah. Well, it leads into the last thing I want to talk to you about. You are a new mom, I'm a new dad. And one of the things that I think we both probably at least have put more thought into is like, hey, I could go and I could work 12 hours a day or like, you know, there's this like little person that I enjoy spending time with as well. And there's a balance. And so most executives, for the most part, not always, but most of them are a little bit further along in their career, which tends to mean that just from an age perspective, they likely are, or they have a higher probability of having a family, of having children, all this stuff. How does the balance between like work and life or family or any of that play into it? And has that changed over the last two or three years because of the pandemic and people seeing their kids? I've talked to people who are literally like,

• 48:47Anthony Pompliano?

  I didn't realize like I never saw my kids. Now I saw them because I was locked in the house with them. And sure, there was like crazy times, but like I enjoyed it and I want to do that more. Like, what have you all seen there as you've talked to candidates?

• 48:59Speaker 02

  I think I just stay away from like work, life balance. It really is integration today. Like it is not balanced because I really don't think it's balanced, but I think it's integration. And that's where I, you know, I made a stance and how important it is, I think, for people to be in an office. But I think that the hybrid model is a really, really good one where you have time in the office, but you also have time to be with your family. You have time to run the errands that you never get to run. You have time to work out. You have time to do the other things that you need to do to make you the best version of yourself. And I think executives and any human is going to be better at their job if they're the best version of themselves. And so we now live in a world where people realize, okay, if you clocked in at nine and you clocked out at

• 49:44Speaker 02

  five, like that actually doesn't matter. It doesn't matter when you clock in, clock out. If you're a trusted executive and you prove that you can do the work and get done what needs to get done within the certain time parameters, well, then do it however you want and do it wherever you want. Obviously, it has to work for the company. But I, I think the benefit of all the, you know, past couple of years is people realize that anyone who is really good at their job, who is responsible, who works hard and gets done what needs to get done, shouldn't be micromanaged in a way where they have to physically be somewhere at a certain time. Again, I go back to like, yes, who needs to be in an office if that's important to the company, but there should be a way to integrate it, less so balance it, because anyone working, you know, super hard

• 50:28Speaker 02

  around the clock, it doesn't really feel like a balance some days. But I also think You can have it all, but you can't have it all at the same time. Some days you're gonna put more into your job, some days you're gonna put more into your family, and some days you're gonna put more into yourself, and it's just about making it all work.

• 50:45Anthony Pompliano?

  Mm-hmm. It's interesting to say integration, because I do think that people now, it used to be like there's the family life, and then there's like the work life. And now, like, I don't know, I don't know what the percentage increased, but like, I do phone calls to people all the time. And they're like, oh, so I got my kid here, this or that. Like, it's almost just become like more okay to have the integration or like the lines blurred. Whereas I feel like maybe our parents or grandparents' generation, it was like, I would be so embarrassed. There's the one video, the guy who was like doing the live TV interview, and the kid ran in, and he was like freaking out. The mom, I think it was, like crawled on the floor to try to like grab the kid or whatever. And I think now people would just be like, oh, that's my kid, right?

• 51:27Anthony Pompliano?

  And so, society-wise, like, it feels like a net benefit, but it also does cause change in like the work environment as well.

• 51:35Speaker 02

  Well, I also think we have technology that they didn't have back in the day. Like, we can take our cell phones anywhere. I can do my job anywhere, as long as I have my phone with me. I could be on vacation and take a candidate call if I need to, because I have my phone with me. And really, that's all I need at the end of the day. Whereas like, obviously, our, our parents, our grandparents, didn't have that luxury. We can Zoom if needed, you know? If we can't be in person, like, we just have the ability to do things really differently than generations previously. And I think that's only gonna continue to evolve and change over time. But the candidates, you know, on the phone with their kids in the background, that has been our life forever, because again, candidates don't often talk to us when they're at their office. They'll talk to us when they're driving, they're dropping their kids off at school in the morning,

• 52:20Speaker 02

  or on a weekend when they've got their in-laws in town. So like, we're used to hearing that background noise.

• 52:25Anthony Pompliano?

  They're using you guys as to get away from the in-laws?

• 52:27Speaker 02

  Basically, yeah, exactly. Call us if you need to get away from your in-laws. But no, we're just, you know, we're, we're used to working around other people's schedules, and it's oftentimes when they are home with their families.

• 52:39Anthony Pompliano?

  Yeah, that makes sense. Where can we send people to find you on the internet or find out more about Diversa?

• 52:43Speaker 02

  Yeah, diversapartners.com is where you can find us. You can check us out on LinkedIn, or go to our website.

• 52:50Anthony Pompliano?

  I don't think I've had anyone who ever said LinkedIn before, so I know that you guys are in the recruiting business because that's where all the recruiters are.

• 52:57Speaker 02

  Exactly.

• 52:58Anthony Pompliano?

  Awesome. Well, thank you so much. I appreciate this. I really learned a lot and I think it's interesting, kind of the difference between the contingency versus the retained search, but also you all specialize in executive search. And so if folks are looking for filling those types of roles, you know, I tend to give advice to founders, like go work with people who are experts at that one thing. And you guys definitely are in the executive search side. So I appreciate it and we'll definitely do it again in the future.

• 53:20Speaker 02

  Awesome. Thank you so much. It's been fun.

• 53:24Anthony Pompliano?

  Thanks so much for listening to today's episode. I really hope you enjoyed this one. Make sure you're subscribed on Apple, Spotify, or your favorite podcast player. And if you're looking to transition into a brand new job in the Bitcoin or crypto industry, we've got you covered. Head over to thecryptoacademy.io. My team and I have been working with the top HR teams in the industry to develop an intensive three-week training program with over 50 live events. We teach you exactly what you need to know to break into the industry, including live interview prep and resume review. Our students have been hired at over 75 of the world's best Bitcoin and crypto companies. Go to thecryptoacademy.io to learn more. Again, that's thecryptoacademy.io. If you enjoyed today's episode, make sure you share it with your friends and I'll see you all for the next episode.