The AI lab market map, Robinhood brings startups to retail, GLPs & hedge funds | Diet TBPN

Diet TBPN delivers the best of today’s TBPN episode in 30 minutes. TBPN is a live tech talk show hosted by John Coogan and Jordi Hays, streaming weekdays 11–2 PT on X and YouTube, with each episode posted to podcast platforms right after. Described by The New York Times as “Silicon Valley’s newest obsession,” the show has recently featured Mark Zuckerberg, Sam Altman, Mark Cuban, and Satya Nadella. TBPN is made possible by: Ramp - https://Ramp.com https://ramp.com/ AppLovin - https://axon.ai https://axon.ai/ Cisco - https://www.cisco.com https://www.cisco.com/ Cognition - https://cognition.ai https://cognition.ai/ Console - https://console.com https://console.com/ CrowdStrike - https://crowdstrike.com https://crowdstrike.com/ ElevenLabs - https://elevenlabs.io https://elevenlabs.io/ Figma - https://figma.com https://figma.com/ Fin - https://fin.ai https://fin.ai/ Gemini - https://gemini.google.com https://gemini.google.com/ Graphite - https://graphite.com https://graphite.com/ Gusto - https://gusto.com/tbpn Kalshi - https://kalshi.com https://kalshi.com/ Labelbox - https://labelbox.com https://labelbox.com/ Lambda - https://lambda.ai https://lambda.ai/ Linear - https://linear.app https://linear.app/ MongoDB - https://mongodb.com https://mongodb.com/ NYSE - https://nyse.com https://nyse.com/ Okta - https://www.okta.com https://www.okta.com/ Phantom - https://phantom.com/cash Plaid - https://plaid.com https://plaid.com/ Public - https://public.com https://public.com/ Railway - https://railway.com https://railway.com/ Restream - https://restream.io https://restream.io/ Sentry - https://sentry.io https://sentry.io/ Shopify - https://shopify.com/tbpn Turbopuffer - https://turbopuffer.com https://turbopuffer.com/ Vanta - https://vanta.com https://vanta.com/ Vibe - https://vibe.co https://vibe.co/ Follow TBPN: https://TBPN.com https://x.com/tbpn https://open.spotify.com/show/2L6WMqY3GUPCGBD0dX6p00?si=674252d53acf4231 https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/technology-brothers/id1772360235 https://www.youtube.com/@TBPNLive

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:01John Coogan?

  We have a great show for you today, folks. Specifically, Tyler Cosgrove has been on a little bit of a tear with the market maps.

• 0:08Jordi Hays?

  He made the final.

• 0:10John Coogan?

  The final market.

• 0:11Jordi Hays?

  The final market.

• 0:11John Coogan?

  We don't need any more market maps because Tyler made a market map that has every company on it. Let's pull up his latest market map.

• 0:21Jordi Hays?

  There was some VC associate out there that was making a market map and was just devastated.

• 0:27John Coogan?

  All my, all the companies I was going to put on the market map are now on this market map.

• 0:33Speaker 02

  Over winter break, actually, I was interested in this thing where like, okay, on Wikipedia, there's like all sorts of like, Wikipedia is, I think, is like a very underrated data source. And there's like all sorts of cool things I think you can do, right?

• 0:43Jordi Hays?

  You mean Grokapi, right?

• 0:44Speaker 02

  So Grokapi is a little different because it's like generated on the fly, right? I took every Wikipedia article, there's like seven, seven and a half million English ones. And I ran them through an embedding model. It was Qwen-3 embedding 4B, I think.

• 0:57John Coogan?

  You speak Chinese?

• 0:58Speaker 02

  Yeah. 我是中国人.

• 0:59John Coogan?

  Whoa, he's got it.

• 1:01Jordi Hays?

  He should.

• 1:03John Coogan?

  Okay.

• 1:04Speaker 02

  But I got an embedding for every single article, right? So it's like basically every article has a vector. It's like 2,500.

• 1:11John Coogan?

  You did this a while ago, right?

• 1:12Speaker 02

  So then basically I took all the articles, I found all the ones that are about companies, enterprises, right? Which is basically you can find some direct direction in the embedding space. That's like, of course, wants to how much like company-ness something has, right?

• 1:24John Coogan?

  Company-ness, really? Oh, you don't, you don't filter by like Wikipedia's categorization of whether or not.

• 1:31Speaker 02

  So I use that, but that's not inclusive of every single company. So it's like a little bit blurry because some things are like, well, is it a company? Is it not?

• 1:38John Coogan?

  Yeah, I noticed some like railroads on here that looked like maybe they're companies, but they're like state owned and where does that fit in?

• 1:44Speaker 02

  It's kind of a blurry thing, so you can't just use just what Wikipedia says. But you can basically find things that are companies and then you have a, you have an embedding for every single one, right? So it's this big vector, super high dimensional space. If you map it down to 2D, you can have this like cool 2D map, which is basically what I did.

• 1:58John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:59Speaker 02

  So you can see there's these big clusters, right? So it's like. The top left, there's it's all these theater companies or

• 2:03John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:04Speaker 02

  There's a space companies.

• 2:05John Coogan?

  I noticed the aviation companies were pretty far away from the train companies. Is that deliberate?

• 2:11Speaker 02

  Yeah, I mean, it's because You knew there was kind of like

• 2:13John Coogan?

  Yeah, conflict.

• 2:14Speaker 02

  A bit of a rivalry.

• 2:15John Coogan?

  Yeah, rivalry. They need to be, you gotta keep those apart or they'll just start fighting.

• 2:18Speaker 02

  Yeah, like when you map something down from like, you know, there's like 2,000 dimensions down to 2D.

• 2:22John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:23Speaker 02

  It's like very hard to keep

• 2:24John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:24Speaker 02

  Like a ton of things.

• 2:25John Coogan?

  And it just randomly looked like the United States.

• 2:27Speaker 02

  Yeah, that has nothing to do with

• 2:28John Coogan?

  That's so crazy.

• 2:29Speaker 02

  That was totally random.

• 2:30John Coogan?

  Because I looked at it and I was like, oh, okay, there's a lot of companies in Florida, a lot of companies in the Northeast.

• 2:33Speaker 02

  Yeah, I didn't even like realize. I was like, oh, it kind of looks like.

• 2:36John Coogan?

  And then I was like, what is this? What is this enclave in Canada? Why does that? Is that Alaska or something? But in fact, it has nothing to do with the United States. It just happens to look like the United States.

• 2:45Speaker 02

  Yeah, but this, so it's like actually interactive. So you can like look up a company and you can find where it is and stuff.

• 2:49John Coogan?

  Tylercausegrove.com slash Wikipedia underscore map dot HTML. Wow, really? A wordsmith with the with the URLs there, Tyler. Couldn't use a TLD-less domain. There are some fun ones in here. Anyway, that's a fun project. All the links take you to Wikipedia. Go check it out. And we get market maps are basically done, but a lot of the Neo Labs are not on this market map. And let's click over to Tyler's market map of the Neo Labs. Because we've been tracking the Neo Lab boom. We've had a lot of these founders on the show. We we came out of the world where we were like, okay, there's DeepMind, there's Google, there's OpenAI.

• 3:32John Coogan?

  Now we got Anthropic. There's Thinking Machines and there's a couple different companies. But the Neo Labs have exploded. Tyler, take us through what's going on in the world of Neo Labs these days.

• 3:44Speaker 02

  Yeah, so Neo Lab is kind of this interesting term, like it it's very broad. People say like Neo Lab, it's not very clear what they mean. Because there's like broadly, I think it generally

• 3:53John Coogan?

  And this will make it clearer?

• 3:54Speaker 02

  Yes. I think after this, it'll be pretty obvious like what, you know, what you should be looking at, how to think about these different companies.

• 3:59John Coogan?

  Yeah, I I don't want to be more confused at the end of this.

• 4:01Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 4:02John Coogan?

  That would be a disaster if that happened.

• 4:04Speaker 02

  Yeah, that's not gonna happen.

• 4:04John Coogan?

  This is gonna be easy. Okay, got it, got it, got it. Go.

• 4:07Speaker 02

  Okay, so let's just start. Okay, so you have Neo Lab, right?

• 4:10John Coogan?

  Yes.

• 4:10Speaker 02

  So Neo is a prefix. Okay, it has to be relative to something.

• 4:13John Coogan?

  Yes.

• 4:13Speaker 02

  So Neo is relative to like your trad lab. This is your big lab.

• 4:17John Coogan?

  Traditional.

• 4:17Speaker 02

  This is your, yeah, this is your OpenAI.

• 4:19John Coogan?

  And let's give it up for the big labs. Yeah, they don't get enough credit today. They'll get the centers, spike in CapEx.

• 4:25Speaker 02

  So this is going to be your OpenAI, your DeepMind, your Anthropic. These are kind of your big lab. Yeah, XAI.

• 4:29John Coogan?

  XAI kind of fits in there too. Even though it's a newer trad lab, it fits in with the big lab. They got a lot of money.

• 4:35Speaker 02

  Dario, I think on Torkash, he was like, yeah, three, maybe four labs, right? So the force is probably XAI.

• 4:41John Coogan?

  Yep.

• 4:41Speaker 02

  I think you can also kind of throw in Mistral in there.

• 4:45John Coogan?

  Okay. Oh yeah, Mistral's a little bit older. Yeah.

• 4:47Speaker 02

  Yeah, I mean, Mistral, there's much of these labs that were basically founded in the like two or three years before ChatGPT and then in the like six months after.

• 4:55John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 4:55Speaker 02

  So I think XAI is in there, Mistral's in there.

• 4:57John Coogan?

  And these specifically, these, I feel like those trad labs, it's like they did a transformer based pre-training run. They have their own base pre-trained. Maybe it's not at the frontier, but at least they're playing that game. They're not doing fine tuning. They're not doing something else. So that's sort of like you're in the trad lab world when you're thinking about like a big pre-train run loosely.

• 5:17Speaker 02

  Yeah. I mean, especially if you're talking about these big pre-trains, it's really just these four. No one else is really at that scale.

• 5:22John Coogan?

  Yep.

• 5:22Speaker 02

  Okay. So Mistral kind of brings us down into what I call the sovereign labs. You know, if you kind of look at this, it's basically just labs that are not in America. But I think also that there actually is some meaning to this. So like Mistral, you've seen Mistral become kind of the leader in European AI, right? So I think it was in, was it Sweden, maybe they're bringing a new data center?

• 5:40John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 5:41Speaker 02

  So they're kind of becoming like.

• 5:42John Coogan?

  Stuff going on in France too.

• 5:43Speaker 02

  Macron is always talking about Mistral. It's a big leader. Cohere is also kind of, I think that's like a very, you know, it's a Canadian company. Yeah.

• 5:49John Coogan?

  Yes. Yes. But also has done their own pre-trains.

• 5:52Speaker 02

  No ties to the curling team though. And then you can go down, you can kind of see all your Chinese open source labs. You see your Quen, DeepSeek, Kimi. Unitree is also in there, right? Unitree, I think, so as we'll see later, there's also, I have section for like robotics labs.

• 6:07John Coogan?

  Sure. Take us back in time now. What was going on before the trad labs broke out?

• 6:11Speaker 02

  Yeah. So here I have this section, legacy labs.

• 6:14John Coogan?

  Okay.

• 6:15Speaker 02

  So these are ones that are kind of more entrenched in these big enterprises.

• 6:19John Coogan?

  Yep.

• 6:19Speaker 02

  So you have stuff like Microsoft Research, HNT Bell Labs, right?

• 6:24John Coogan?

  Oh, Bell Labs. Yeah. I forgot about Bell Labs. After, you know what? You know how, you know why they call it Bell Labs?

• 6:30Speaker 02

  Why do they call it Bell Labs?

• 6:31John Coogan?

  Alexander Graham Bell. Yeah. It was founded by him.

• 6:35Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 6:35John Coogan?

  Bell Labs.

• 6:36Speaker 02

  Okay, but also you have stuff like you have FAIR, Facebook AI Research. This was like, I mean, there's so many like OG research papers that came out of FAIR.

• 6:45John Coogan?

  Yep.

• 6:46Speaker 02

  This is what Jan LeCoon used to be head of before it transitioned to the, to MSL. Around your TRAD lab, you'll also have POST lab, right?

• 6:54John Coogan?

  Yes.

• 6:55Speaker 02

  P O A S T.

• 6:56John Coogan?

  Yes, these are posters.

• 6:57Speaker 02

  Yeah, these are labs where you get a lot of posters, right? So obviously this is OpenAI, you got Rune.

• 7:01John Coogan?

  Yes.

• 7:02Speaker 02

  Anthropic, a lot of, you know, Shulto, et cetera.

• 7:04John Coogan?

  Yep, a lot of posters over there.

• 7:05Speaker 02

  A lot of great posters. Prime Intellect, I think.

• 7:07John Coogan?

  They're great posters.

• 7:08Speaker 02

  Will Brown.

• 7:08John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 7:09Speaker 02

  A bunch of Anons at Prime Intellect doing great stuff over there.

• 7:12John Coogan?

  For sure.

• 7:12Speaker 02

  And then you kind of get into the core.

• 7:14John Coogan?

  The proper Neo lab.

• 7:15Speaker 02

  Yeah, the proper Neo lab.

• 7:16John Coogan?

  Okay.

• 7:16Speaker 02

  This is also a bit hard to identify because like, what is actually the core of a Neo lab? What are these different kind of offshoots?

• 7:22John Coogan?

  Mm hmm.

• 7:22Speaker 02

  I think Prime Intellect is kind of the prototypical, like quintessential Neo lab.

• 7:26John Coogan?

  Okay.

• 7:26Speaker 02

  When you think of it, it's like fairly recent.

• 7:28John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 7:29Speaker 02

  It's still very much research focused.

• 7:31John Coogan?

  Okay.

• 7:32Speaker 02

  Like sure, they have enterprise, like, you know, think about different stuff, but at the core of it, you're still like trying to find these like new novel approaches. It's research, you're hiring researchers. It's not just like engineers, sales guys, et cetera. So let's.

• 7:42Jordi Hays?

  Wouldn't Sakana be more of like a sovereign lab?

• 7:45Speaker 02

  Yeah, I mean, so a lot of these can fit in all different places. Sakana would be, yeah, Japanese maybe.

• 7:51John Coogan?

  Okay, and you put MSL in here because it's a new project.

• 7:54Speaker 02

  Yeah, this one was also a bit hard.

• 7:56John Coogan?

  Thinking Machines is my classic go to Neo lab.

• 7:59Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 7:59John Coogan?

  I feel like it's post, post OpenAI Exodus and sort of, OpenAI is nothing without its people. You know, you get the spin outs and you think Thinking Machines and SSI are two of like the first case studies that sort of set the tempo for, okay, it's possible to do some research outside of the big TRAD labs.

• 8:19Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 8:19John Coogan?

  And so that's where you get the Neo lab boom from. And then a lot of the other companies are feel like are saying, okay, we're going to do something similar to Thinking Machines or SSI. We're going to commercialize early or late, but we're following in that, in that, and we're benchmarking to that. Oh, they raised $2 billion? We're raising $200 million. It's easier. There's a 10% chance that we, you know, are at their scale, so you can underwrite it that way.

• 8:39Speaker 02

  Yeah, so Thinking Machines also brings us to what I call the TRAD SAS lab, right? SAS lab, you've TRAD SAS lab. So I think the way I think about this is. The trad SaaS labs are trying to basically use the data that's inside these big enterprises, pull them out with AI.

• 8:57John Coogan?

  Okay.

• 8:58Speaker 02

  So this is thing machines, right? Rumored idea, right, is they're doing RL for enterprise.

• 9:01John Coogan?

  Yep.

• 9:02Speaker 02

  A bunch of these are doing fairly similar things where it's kind of chatting with your data, using the data that's very valuable to a company, but it's going to be inside the company. You can't really pull it out anyway. Besides having the AI be like internal. So you have applied compute, you have pool side doing all kind of similar things in this, in this like enterprise L M field.

• 9:20John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 9:21Speaker 02

  And then I have Neo SaaS Labs, this is different than than trad SaaS.

• 9:24John Coogan?

  Okay.

• 9:25Speaker 02

  These are are are different in that they're not really pulling, they're not going enterprise specific, maybe.

• 9:32John Coogan?

  Sure.

• 9:32Speaker 02

  I think that's one way to look at it. Also much more of like startup focus, right?

• 9:36John Coogan?

  They're making a product that is sold effectively as SaaS.

• 9:40Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 9:40John Coogan?

  So Cursor, Cognition, Windsurf.

• 9:43Speaker 02

  I have Ramp Labs.

• 9:43John Coogan?

  Ramp Labs, these are seat based sort of, consumption based. But it's a product that's vended into a, and the product is what you get and then sort of customizes as you integrate it, but it's not, it doesn't, the, the conversation doesn't start with a business development relationship.

• 10:01Speaker 02

  Yeah. And of course, I mean, these lines are are pretty blurry. Okay, let's go down to the post lab.

• 10:05John Coogan?

  Okay.

• 10:05Speaker 02

  Right, so post lab.

• 10:06John Coogan?

  Post lab after.

• 10:07Speaker 02

  This is after the lab.

• 10:08John Coogan?

  Yes.

• 10:08Speaker 02

  So that means like basically they train the models and then these labs are working on top of those models.

• 10:14John Coogan?

  Okay, okay.

• 10:15Speaker 02

  Right, so you have Meter, you have Epoch, these are going to do evals.

• 10:17John Coogan?

  Yep.

• 10:18Speaker 02

  You have Pangram, they're seeing is the, is the model producing slap?

• 10:23John Coogan?

  Yes.

• 10:23Speaker 02

  Or is it producing text that you're using in some way?

• 10:26John Coogan?

  Yes, yes, yes. These are purely eval. They, they don't have necessarily AI products themselves. They don't necessarily sell to big businesses just yet.

• 10:34Speaker 02

  They could still be training models, right? Like Pangram is training models that sit on top of the lab.

• 10:37John Coogan?

  That's true, that's true. So it counts as a lab.

• 10:39Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 10:39John Coogan?

  Makes sense.

• 10:40Speaker 02

  And then maybe that brings us down to the safety lab.

• 10:43John Coogan?

  Yes.

• 10:43Speaker 02

  So these are pretty interesting. Anthropic kind of fits in this, right?

• 10:46John Coogan?

  Yeah, totally.

• 10:47Speaker 02

  A big safety team, they're doing a lot of mechanistic interpretability. You have Goodfire, I think they just raised at like 1.25 billion and they're just doing mechanistic interpretability.

• 10:55John Coogan?

  Let's go.

• 10:56Speaker 02

  Very interesting.

• 10:57John Coogan?

  Cool.

• 10:57Speaker 02

  Eluther AI is a similar kind of lab.

• 10:59John Coogan?

  I know Eluther, yeah.

• 11:00Speaker 02

  Okay, so then in contrast to the SaaS labs.

• 11:04John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 11:05Speaker 02

  We have the consumer lab.

• 11:06John Coogan?

  Okay, consumer labs.

• 11:07Speaker 02

  So these are focused on consumers, right?

• 11:08John Coogan?

  Okay.

• 11:09Speaker 02

  So you have Eureka Labs, this is Andre Karpathy's project.

• 11:12John Coogan?

  Oh, yeah.

• 11:12Speaker 02

  I don't think there's anything been released from it yet.

• 11:13John Coogan?

  Education, though.

• 11:14Speaker 02

  Uh, but yeah, education.

• 11:15John Coogan?

  Makes sense.

• 11:16Speaker 02

  It's for people, um, you have humans.

• 11:18John Coogan?

  Oh, it's four, four people, not four individuals working there.

• 11:21Speaker 02

  It's four people, yeah, yeah.

• 11:22John Coogan?

  It might be four people, it might be one person, who knows? He's pretty good.

• 11:25Speaker 02

  Yeah, you have Humans and, right? This is the, I forget if that phrase, it's like humanity focused.

• 11:31John Coogan?

  You're gonna turn human into sand?

• 11:32Speaker 02

  Human sand.

• 11:33John Coogan?

  Human sand.

• 11:34Jordi Hays?

  Yeah, we, uh, we got to hang out with founders at the Super Bowl. But they're, but, but yeah, focused on, uh, creating models that work better alongside people.

• 11:46Speaker 02

  So then that, that brings us down to the visual labs, right? So there's a lot of either multimodal.

• 11:51John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 11:52Speaker 02

  Models, or they're actually like producing video or images, right?

• 11:55John Coogan?

  We've talked to a lot of these founders.

• 11:56Speaker 02

  You have, okay, you have Neo Auditory Lab.

• 11:58John Coogan?

  Okay.

• 11:59Speaker 02

  Right, so this is gonna be anything that has to do with vocals.

• 12:03John Coogan?

  Yes.

• 12:04Speaker 02

  Or voice or music, right?

• 12:05John Coogan?

  Yes. Eleven Labs?

• 12:07Speaker 02

  Eleven Labs, of course.

• 12:08John Coogan?

  Sponsor of TVPN, thank you.

• 12:09Speaker 02

  Yep, Suno, right, making music.

• 12:11John Coogan?

  Okay.

• 12:11Speaker 02

  Gemini also released a new model.

• 12:13John Coogan?

  Yes, today for Lyria 3.

• 12:16Speaker 02

  Neo Trad Lab.

• 12:16John Coogan?

  Yes.

• 12:17Speaker 02

  It's a Neo Lab.

• 12:17John Coogan?

  Yes.

• 12:18Speaker 02

  But it's Trad.

• 12:19John Coogan?

  Okay.

• 12:19Speaker 02

  Okay, so what does that mean? So basically, um, the way I, I think about a lot of these labs is that they're extremely research focused.

• 12:25John Coogan?

  Okay.

• 12:26Speaker 02

  Um, they're also largely, they're focused on like kind of a single idea.

• 12:30John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 12:31Speaker 02

  So if you think of, um, like OpenAI, uh, very research focused, obviously, but they're doing a lot of different things.

• 12:36John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 12:37Speaker 02

  Right, so they have.

• 12:38John Coogan?

  Consumer enterprise.

• 12:39Speaker 02

  Yeah, they have consumer, but it's even like on the product or on the research side, right? They're doing video, images.

• 12:43John Coogan?

  Sora, images.

• 12:44Speaker 02

  Yeah, but even, even within, um, like language models, I'm sure they have a, you know, continual learning.

• 12:48John Coogan?

  Yep.

• 12:48Speaker 02

  Team, or, or, all these like weird Mootch out things. Where I think a lot of these Neo Trad Labs are basically focused on one single. Moonshot idea.

• 12:57John Coogan?

  Mm hmm.

• 12:57Speaker 02

  Okay, so example, flapping airplanes.

• 13:00John Coogan?

  Yes.

• 13:00Speaker 02

  They just came on, they're talking about data fidelity.

• 13:02John Coogan?

  Mm hmm.

• 13:02Speaker 02

  This is kind of the one kind of moonshot idea, right? Obviously, it's like a very general broad.

• 13:08John Coogan?

  There's a bunch of different ways you tackle it, but they're like, that's the problem that we're going after.

• 13:11Speaker 02

  But it's one specific thing they're working on.

• 13:13John Coogan?

  Yep.

• 13:13Speaker 02

  Let's move up a little bit.

• 13:14John Coogan?

  Yeah, what is Neo Lab Lab?

• 13:15Speaker 02

  Neo Lab Lab. So these are a lot of companies that are focusing on, they're also like very research focused. The point of the research is to build essentially like a researcher.

• 13:25John Coogan?

  Oh.

• 13:25Speaker 02

  So it's they're recursive, right?

• 13:26John Coogan?

  Okay.

• 13:27Speaker 02

  So.

• 13:28John Coogan?

  You have recursive and recursive.

• 13:30Speaker 02

  Yeah, you have actually two that are recursive and recursive.

• 13:32John Coogan?

  Wet Labs?

• 13:33Speaker 02

  Yeah, Wet Labs.

• 13:34John Coogan?

  Okay.

• 13:34Speaker 02

  So these are your bio labs.

• 13:36John Coogan?

  Oh, you got LabCorp. Yeah, I'm familiar with LabCorp.

• 13:38Speaker 02

  LabCorp. But there's, there's a lot of like biology focused.

• 13:43John Coogan?

  Yes.

• 13:43Speaker 02

  Labs, it's actually like, I didn't know a lot about a lot of these. These are all your, your kind of Neo Connect Labs, right? These are fairly recently in the past, like maybe four or five years.

• 13:52John Coogan?

  Yes.

• 13:52Speaker 02

  Broadly.

• 13:53John Coogan?

  And then the Neo Neo Lab.

• 13:54Speaker 02

  Neo Neo Lab, right? Okay, so 1X is building Neo Robots, so they're Neo.

• 14:00John Coogan?

  Neo Neo Lab, that makes sense, yeah.

• 14:02Speaker 02

  Yep.

• 14:02John Coogan?

  And then Legacy Kinetic is the previous.

• 14:05Speaker 02

  Legacy Kinetic is kind of the old gen.

• 14:07John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 14:08Jordi Hays?

  But cooking.

• 14:09John Coogan?

  They're cooking, yeah, Waymo's cooking.

• 14:11Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 14:11John Coogan?

  Cruise and Boston Dynamics have been a little bit behind. Uh, Zooks also, another self-driving car company.

• 14:17Speaker 02

  There's a bunch on here that I could have included.

• 14:18John Coogan?

  Stealth, I think, that never really hit.

• 14:21Speaker 02

  You have your Dark Lab.

• 14:22John Coogan?

  Yes.

• 14:23Speaker 02

  So this is.

• 14:23John Coogan?

  Working with the government.

• 14:24Speaker 02

  I have, yeah, I have Shield AI, I also have DARPA.

• 14:26John Coogan?

  DARPA is a lab, yeah, they invented the internet, right?

• 14:29Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 14:30John Coogan?

  GPS?

• 14:30Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, so I think this should be pretty obvious to anyone who's thinking about Neo Labs, like how should be thinking about them now. But these things are coming out like every day, right?

• 14:38Jordi Hays?

  And you put the, you put the typos in just to prove that.

• 14:41John Coogan?

  What typos?

• 14:42Jordi Hays?

  Human, so like Sovereign Lab and then.

• 14:45John Coogan?

  Sovereign.

• 14:46Jordi Hays?

  Ineffable Intelligence also has a typo.

• 14:50Jordi Hays?

  And so I just want to make sure, I wanted to make sure people knew.

• 14:53John Coogan?

  This was not AI generated.

• 14:54Jordi Hays?

  Yeah, you put the typos in so that it was proof that you made it.

• 14:58John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 14:59Jordi Hays?

  Sovereign. I don't want.

• 15:01John Coogan?

  Well, yeah, whatever you built this in doesn't have spell check, I guess.

• 15:05Jordi Hays?

  One show, two maps.

• 15:07John Coogan?

  One show, two maps.

• 15:08Jordi Hays?

  Strong start. Robin Hood says historically investing in private markets was limited to institutions and the elite, but not anymore. With Robin Hood Ventures, you can now get exposure to private companies like the ones listed below. They have a new fund that has Databricks, Merkle, Revolut, Airwallex, Boom, Supersonic, Ramp, Aura, and Stripe, which is signed and pending close.

• 15:32John Coogan?

  I'm relieved to finally have an answer for family and friends who have been asking, how do I get exposure to Ramp Equity? And so, you know, if this is coming out from your head of investor relations, it's not exactly a Mac Grim style response.

• 15:46Jordi Hays?

  They bought Databricks at $150 per share, now trading at 204. Ramp at 90, now trading at 98. Airwallex, $21, it's now trading at 18.8. And then Merkle at 7.14 now trading. So already seen a little uptick. Anchor came in and was sharing some of his sights. It's a single close end fund that gives you exposure to some of the top private startups. My thoughts, people want access to private markets, of course. So much wealth creation in America happens in startups and people desperately want access. You can see this with the insane, silly fees people are paying for Anthropic, SpaceX, and OpenAI SPVs. He says, too, the structure of this fund is broken.

• 16:28Jordi Hays?

  As a closed end fund, the price here can diverge very significantly from the net asset value of the underlying assets with FOMO from access. This easily traded at a very high multiple to NAV, leading to a lot of retail investors getting their face ripped off. It ends up being less of a venture fund versus a speculative product to ride private market sentiment.

• 16:48John Coogan?

  It's a great disclosure.

• 16:48Jordi Hays?

  Disclosure, long.

• 16:50John Coogan?

  Elon Musk announced that XAI is moving away from traditional academic benchmarks like humanities last exam to focus Grok on maximal utility for real world engineering and software development. Said, actually, I don't think HLE is a great measure of usefulness, we're moving away from these benchmarks.

• 17:08Jordi Hays?

  Andy Scott says, so it's bad? I think it's totally fair to just focus on real world utility, but of course, people are still going to ask, well, I still want to know how it does.

• 17:22John Coogan?

  So Grok 4 has already been out. This is a minor revision?

• 17:26Speaker 02

  And 4.1.

• 17:27John Coogan?

  4.1. So now we're at 4.2.

• 17:29Speaker 02

  Historically, especially when Grok 4 came out, people were like very, very quick to say it was like, oh, this is so benchmarks or whatever. I think they've definitely retreated from, from that, like at least path with 4.2. It doesn't look like outrageously benchmarks or anything. They did this kind of interesting thing where it's still not like fully out. It's still like in, in beta if you go on the Grok like interface. They did this kind of interesting thing where there's like four agents. Every time you actually do a prompt, there's like four agents and the agents specifically have like distinct roles. It's almost kind of like you have four instances of the same model, but they have different system prompts.

• 18:03John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 18:03Speaker 02

  So you can try to get like, okay, this one is like focused on doing like qualitative things.

• 18:08John Coogan?

  Instead of mixture of experts, mixture of agents. I wonder, I wonder what the bull case is here for, for XAI. There's a world where they carve out some sort of niche, you know, anthropics like focused on coding very specifically and, and you know, had some major, major gains there. What else is there? Also, it is interesting to think about with the cerebrus news and with the value of like high speed inference on one, the whole model on one chip. Is that something that Tesla's chip team can, can iterate towards on a faster time horizon than other chip companies? I mean, they, they do custom silicon and they've done it for a long time and they got an entire self-driving.

• 18:50John Coogan?

  Model that runs on a car. So, you know, they have some experience there.

• 18:54Jordi Hays?

  Tariq says, I'm proud to share that Humane has invested $3 billion into XAI's Series E Round just prior to its historic acquisition by SpaceX. Through this transaction, Humane became a significant, a significant minority shareholder in XAI. The investment builds on our previously announced 500-megawatt AI infrastructure partnership with XAI in Saudi Arabia. Maybe, you know, would have wanted to get this out before, before the SpaceX acquisition, but better late.

• 19:21John Coogan?

  Wait, wait, wait, they said they got in before the acquisition.

• 19:25Jordi Hays?

  I know.

• 19:25John Coogan?

  You mean the news?

• 19:26Jordi Hays?

  This round got announced a while ago, so maybe they would, they're, they're coming out with this news today.

• 19:33John Coogan?

  Yeah, but they're saying, hey, we got in before the acquisition. So we got, we got SpaceX shares. I don't know.

• 19:39Jordi Hays?

  Yeah, I was just saying, better, better late than never.

• 19:41John Coogan?

  On, yeah, you mean on like a comms front. Let's play this clip from Jeff Bezos. His space company, Blue Origin, will move heaven and earth to get to the moon before rival SpaceX.

• 19:52Speaker 03

  Recently, Jeff Bezos, who never tweets, this was his first tweet of 2026, posted a photo of this like black tortoise, which goes along with Blue Origin's, I think, motif of slow and ferocious, methodical.

• 20:09John Coogan?

  Are turtles ferocious?

• 20:10Speaker 03

  But a lot of people have viewed it as a warning shot to Elon Musk, which really was focused on SpaceX going to Mars. And now he's saying, we're going to focus on the moon. What do you make of that tweet? And what is the competition right now? Do you think you're going to be the first?

• 20:24Speaker 04

  Well, it gives me an opportunity to put on a T-shirt for you. So there you go.

• 20:30Speaker 04

  Nothing else. Let me do that.

• 20:33Speaker 03

  Am I going to keep this?

• 20:34Speaker 04

  Yeah, that's all yours. And that's the first one off the presses, too, by the way. I think everybody's going to want one of those.

• 20:38Jordi Hays?

  He's T-shirt Mark Bloomberg.

• 20:39Speaker 04

  SpaceX doesn't have to lose for Blue to succeed. What the US needs is it needs two SpaceXs. It needs two launch companies competing vigorously against each other to try to give us the most capabilities as a country, commercially, civilly, from a defense perspective, because our adversaries aren't standing still. And so we need, we need to be moving very quickly.

• 21:01Speaker 03

  Healthy competition. But I think a lot of people run into that as. The tortoise being Blue Origin and the hare being Elon Musk and SpaceX. Because it also comes after Secretary Duffy had said that SpaceX is behind. So they were opening up for everyone in terms of Artemis. And Jared Isaacman, who's now the administrator, also said essentially, yeah, whoever can get there first is going to get the contracts. So do you think you're going to get there first?

• 21:25Speaker 04

  I think if asked, we will make it, we will give it a run for our money. I like our architecture. I like our odds of getting there very quickly. I don't, I don't have a crystal ball into what SpaceX is doing. I think, again, Gwen and Elon are competent and they've showed every day about launching rockets. But I love the fact that the US would compete us against each other. They are for sustainability on lunar. We're talking about who could get there in 2028. If asked, we will step up and we will move heaven and earth to get to the moon first.

• 21:58John Coogan?

  Move heaven and earth.

• 21:59Jordi Hays?

  Powerful line.

• 22:00John Coogan?

  The moon race is going to be fun. I think it's shaping up well. I mean, yeah, a little bit of a come tortoise and the hare story, a little bit of come from behind. I'm not buying the tortoise as ferocious.

• 22:12Jordi Hays?

  Yeah, I don't love the analogy. I don't really love the analogy. Like, I don't think it's the best calm strategy. Like, I like the vague posting out of Jeff. It gets, it gets the people going, but at the same time, just imagining SpaceX as a hare, just like running, running a bunch of laps around the tortoise, just kind of...

• 22:32John Coogan?

  They need to take this way further. Elon needs to wear tortoise shell glasses. Be like, I turned your tortoise into my glasses. And Bezos needs to start carrying a rabbit's foot for good luck. That would be the hare. Like, I got your foot. We have some breaking news.

• 22:46Jordi Hays?

  What's that?

• 22:47John Coogan?

  Claude Oath is officially not allowed in Open Claw. So Anthropic is responding to the Open Claw, OpenAI news. This would be a great time for Sam Altman to step in and let us use OpenAI subscriptions with Open Claw. So in the Claude Code docs, Oath and Oath authentication, which is used with the free, pro, and max plans, is intended exclusively for Claude Code and Claude.ai. Using Oath tokens obtained through Claude free, pro, or max accounts in any other product tool or service, including the agent SDK, is not permitted and constitutes a violation of the consumer terms.

• 23:23Jordi Hays?

  Out of the journal.

• 23:24John Coogan?

  Yes.

• 23:25Jordi Hays?

  The fossil fuel tycoon teaming up with the Rockefellers to fight energy poverty.

• 23:31Jordi Hays?

  I'm sure the, uh, the online conspiracy community will, will love this one. EQT Chief Executive Toby Rice is starting a nonprofit to tackle the lack of access to modern energy infrastructure in poor countries. Toby Rice made his fortune unlocking a gusher of natural gas in Appalachia. He has a bold new ambition, bringing energy to millions of people in impoverished nations. Rice, the chief executive at EQT, one of the largest natural gas producers in the US, is a co-founder of Energy Corp, a nonprofit, nonprofit that helps developing nations such as Ghana, Zambia, and Burundi build out their energy infrastructure and prosper. Unlike other philanthropic incentives that emphasize renewables to energize impoverished

• 24:13Jordi Hays?

  societies, Energy Corp sees a role for a broader spectrum of solutions from fossil fuels to solar panels and nuclear plants. Notably, this approach has been endorsed by the Rockefeller Foundation, one of the oldest and richest foundations in the US.

• 24:26John Coogan?

  They really opened up the, they did the floodgates with this. The Rockefellers, you know, wasn't John D. Rockefeller the richest person in human history? You see how much he's putting in this project? 200 Gs, 200 K. Go solve it. Go solve energy globally. 200, 200 K. There you go.

• 24:41Jordi Hays?

  Best I can do is, is 200 bucks. I got, I got you, guy. I'm super excited about this.

• 24:48John Coogan?

  I think, I think Macron deserves a victory lap at this point.

• 24:52Jordi Hays?

  I mean, his Macron size is looking significant.

• 24:55John Coogan?

  Yeah, it's size, it's size compared to this. Should impoverished societies be encouraged to rely on polluting fossil fuels to improve their fortunes or leapfrog to intermittent renewables? There was this question about, um, should Brazil be allowed to, uh, clear cut the Amazon rainforest to pull forward industrialization? It's the world's lungs. Everyone suffers if that happens, but they would certainly benefit in the short term. So there's a, there, there's a hot debate here and he is engaging in it.

• 25:20Jordi Hays?

  David Holmes has hit the timeline. He says 5 million humanoid robots working 24/7 can build Manhattan in six months. Now just imagine what the world looks like when we have 10 billion of them by 2045. Now imagine the year 2100.

• 25:36John Coogan?

  Dyson Sphere, Dyson Sphere. Dyson Sphere by 2100 is the, is the correct, like, debate.

• 25:42Jordi Hays?

  I keep, uh, I keep going back to my land thesis.

• 25:45John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 25:45Jordi Hays?

  When armies of, of robots can build anything, anytime, what, what is actually scarce? In this case, I think with, uh, 10 billion of them, I don't even think land will be scarce anymore. It's like, hey, we're making, we're gonna build an island.

• 25:57John Coogan?

  We're gonna bu, build another moon. We're building the moon.

• 25:59Jordi Hays?

  New moon alert.

• 26:00John Coogan?

  There's, there's no.

• 26:01Jordi Hays?

  New moon alert.

• 26:02John Coogan?

  Just build another earth and just throw it on the other side of the, of the solar system.

• 26:07Jordi Hays?

  Yeah, yeah. I mean, it's, it's, you know, right now we're talking about what businesses are unslopable.

• 26:12John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 26:12Jordi Hays?

  The next meta will obviously be unclankable.

• 26:14John Coogan?

  Unclankable.

• 26:15Jordi Hays?

  Richard says SF guy eating a delicious blueberry. In 18 months, everything will be blueberries.

• 26:21John Coogan?

  This is a perfect contrast to the, to the other post. Just two sides of the SF discourse. No, no, no. David Holes, David Holes is like, he's, cause I, David's seen humanoid robots. Like he's, he's, he's lived in SF and, and been around this stuff. Like he's, he's, he's a true believer and he's, and he's sort of saying like, I've seen what they can do and I understand the exponential here. And now imagine 10 billion of them in a hundred years. Like it's going to be crazy. And then you have, uh, Richard on the other side. Everything will be blueberries.

• 26:53Jordi Hays?

  Uh, I, I thought you were talking about the delicious tacos post. He said, I'm the CEO of a hot dog company. I've worked on hot dogs for 10 years and I wasn't prepared for what I've just seen. Your life is about to change. So what can you do? Buy as many hot dogs as you can. Buy stock in hot dog companies.

• 27:11John Coogan?

  It's a good idea. I, I, I am long hot dog. I like hot dogs.

• 27:14Jordi Hays?

  Hot dog market map.

• 27:16John Coogan?

  Good with the kids. Everyone loves a hot dog. It brings joy. It's all American. There's nothing better than a hot dog at a ballgame.

• 27:22Jordi Hays?

  Orin Hoffman is sharing that Ozempic is bad for business.

• 27:26John Coogan?

  Yes.

• 27:27Jordi Hays?

  A few months ago, someone told me they had heard a rumor that a banker hedge fund had banned its traders from taking Ozempic, Wegovy and other GLP-1 weight loss drugs. Theory, as I understood it, was something like traders need to make quick decisions based on gut instinct and GLP-1s mess with your gut instincts. You're not hungry for snacks. You're not hungry for profits. You lose your edge.

• 27:46John Coogan?

  It is funny.

• 27:47Jordi Hays?

  Orin says GLP is getting banned by hedge funds, maybe by sales teams too.

• 27:52John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 27:52Jordi Hays?

  Killing your grindset. Your gut instincts for some people is saying, put on mass, scale. It's time to scale.

• 27:58John Coogan?

  Time to bulk. Bulking season's here. Get off the GLP-1s and start levering up.

• 28:03Jordi Hays?

  Dr. Cameron Maximus says, guess what increases drive testosterone? A microdose of terzepatide to cut down on physical appetite. Macro dose of testosterone amplify psychological appetite. So the, the solution is we're going to ban GLP-1s only if you're taking them solo. You've got to be taking a full stack.

• 28:21John Coogan?

  Did you see Bone GPT say, turns out you really do got to be hungry for it.

• 28:28Jordi Hays?

  What about a hair bench?

• 28:29John Coogan?

  Hair bench? What's hair bench?

• 28:30Jordi Hays?

  Gabe says Jordy needs to bring Tyler with him when he gets his haircut.

• 28:33John Coogan?

  Haircut? Haircut alert.

• 28:35Jordi Hays?

  And Gabe, Tyler asked, and I sent him my barber's information. So I think they're working on it.

• 28:42John Coogan?

  Haircut alert. We gotta get a card up. Jordy doesn't want to do it, but I think we should put up a card for Jordy's new haircut. We don't like secret haircuts. Overheard in SF, a VC was giving advice. OpenAI and Anthropic are like Godzilla. You need to find an alleyway to hide in. What a funny, what a funny thing to say. There's something good there. I mean, the models, you know, if you're in the path of models improving, you will get stomped like Godzilla, but there's still plenty of opportunities all over the ecosystem, especially if you're not doing something that's in software. I'd be like, you know, like, there's plenty of startups that just like, don't touch software.

• 29:21Jordi Hays?

  Just don't do anything with code.

• 29:23John Coogan?

  Just don't do anything with technology.

• 29:25Jordi Hays?

  Don't, don't do anything with a website.

• 29:27John Coogan?

  Don't do anything with a website.

• 29:28Jordi Hays?

  If you need a website to do business.

• 29:30John Coogan?

  I'm short. I'm passing.

• 29:31Jordi Hays?

  You're cooked. It's over.

• 29:33John Coogan?

  It's over.

• 29:33Jordi Hays?

  It's over. It was fun.

• 29:34John Coogan?

  No, but clearly, I mean, there's plenty of like brands and products and technology and all sorts of things to build and.

• 29:41Jordi Hays?

  Thanks for hanging out with us, folks.

• 29:42John Coogan?

  Thanks for hanging out with us.

• 29:43Jordi Hays?

  We love you. We will see you.

• 29:45John Coogan?

  Tomorrow.

• 29:46Jordi Hays?

  Good morning.

• 29:46John Coogan?

  Goodbye.