DeMaurice Smith: Exec Director of NFLPA Speaks on League, Goodell & Guaranteed Contracts

FOLLOW THE PIVOT PODCAST: MERCH | https://pivotpodcast.com YOUTUBE | https://www.youtube.com/thepivotpodcast INSTAGRAM | https://instagram.com/thepivot TWITTER | https://twitter.com/thepivot TIKTOK | https://tiktok.com/@thepivot FACEBOOK | https://www.facebook.com/thepivotpodcast FOLLOW HAPPY DAD: https://www.instagram.com/happydad FIND HAPPY DAD: https://www.happydad.com/find With the NFL being one of the most premiere sports leagues and a lucrative form of entertainment to people all over the world, but to many, it is still considered a job, especially the men who play the game. Today in a special edition of The Pivot, Ryan, Channing and Fred sit down with the man who is at the helm of the NFL's Player Union- DeMaurice Smith for an in-depth conversation covering the state of the union, player's contracts, injury clauses and the relationship with owners and the commissioner Roger Goodell. Ryan starts the conversation going back to working as player rep before the lock out in 2011 and how the league has changed from then and continues to evolve every year. De talks about how he got involved as the head of the union and his passion behind his purpose and explains why he is often seen as an adversarial figure between the players and the owners and league. Fred and Channing ask a lot of questions around injury clauses after what we saw happen with Damar Hamlin a few weeks ago as well as guaranteed contracts around quarterbacks and specifically ask about Lamar Jackson and what the future looks like for him as well as learn why it takes a unified front to go against a multi-billon dollar business. If you or someone you know has a gambling problem, crisis counseling and referral services can be accessed by calling 877-8-HOPENY/text HOPENY (467369) (NY)1-800-GAMBLER (1-800-426-2537) (IL/IN/LA/MI/NJ/PA/TN/WV/WY), 1-800-NEXT STEP (AZ), 1-800-522-4700 (CO/KS/NH), 888-789-7777/visit http://ccpg.org (CT), 1-800-BETS OFF (IA), visit OPGR.org (OR), or 1-888-532-3500 (VA), 21+ (18+ NH/WY). Physically present in AZ/CO/CT/IL/IN/IA/KS/LA(select parishes)/MI/NJ/NY/PA/TN/VA/WV/WY only. Void in ONT. Eligibility restrictions apply. Valid 1 per new customer. Min. $5 deposit. Min. $5 pre-game moneyline bet. Bet must win. $150 issued as six (6) $25 free bets. See terms at sportsbook.draftkings.com/footballterms. Ends 2/12/23 at 11:59PM ET. Sponsored by DK. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:01Speaker 00

  This episode is brought to you by Michelob Ultra. Good times mean competitions between you and your friends. Like seeing who can throw some pigskin the farthest, or rush the field the fastest. Winner gets an ultra. Because it's not just a superior light beer, it's also giving fans superior access to their favorite sporting events. Superior is worth playing for. Visit michelobultra.com/superioraccess to enter. Enjoy responsibly. Copyright 2026 Anheuser-Busch InBev Michelob Ultra Beer, St. Louis, Missouri.

• 0:30Ryan Clark?

  Hey, Dee Smith.

• 0:33Ryan Clark?

  Where the Jacksonville stuff at? Downstairs. Hey, I'm just saying.

• 0:38Fred Taylor?

  Every show.

• 0:39Ryan Clark?

  It's Pittsburgh stuff in here, Seattle. Look at that, look.

• 0:45Ryan Clark?

  Freddie T.

• 0:45Fred Taylor?

  I seen that guy right there, man.

• 0:47Ryan Clark?

  That boy have muscles.

• 0:50Ryan Clark?

  That boy have muscles, Freddie T. You never played that deep.

• 0:53Channing Crowder?

  You cold, huh?

• 0:54Ryan Clark?

  Now, you never played that deep, so you don't know what happens.

• 0:56Channing Crowder?

  Look at those little meaty arms.

• 0:59Channing Crowder?

  I can feel the mush right now.

• 1:00Ryan Clark?

  What are you talking about? Oh, swole.

• 1:02Channing Crowder?

  No, you're not.

• 1:03Ryan Clark?

  Oh, it's swole.

• 1:04Channing Crowder?

  There's no definition to your arm. Look. But that's not me just talking.

• 1:09Ryan Clark?

  I think I look fine, Channing.

• 1:10Channing Crowder?

  You have a serious look in your face, but them a mushy arms.

• 1:15Ryan Clark?

  Nigga, looking serious don't make you in shape, nigga.

• 1:41Ryan Clark?

  So, welcome to The Pivot. We are your hosts, Freddie T., Channing Crowder, RC. We have an extremely special guest today, Dee Marie Smith, the Executive Director of the NFLPA. To our partners, Happy Dad, we appreciate you. Also, to our sponsor, DraftKings, thank you for your support. Everybody who watches the show, who subscribes, who comments, who likes, who reposts. For all of you that have followed us since the beginning, we are extremely grateful. D. Smith, man, you are not a football guy.

• 2:13Speaker 04

  Not a football guy.

• 2:14Ryan Clark?

  In the sense of, let's just say, God gave you other talents.

• 2:18Speaker 04

  I don't know what they are, but thanks for thinking. God gave me something.

• 2:21Ryan Clark?

  And here you are, Gene Upshaw is the executive director of the NFLPA for 25 years. He is not only an exemplary example of what the NFLPA can and should be, but he's a legend, a legend both on the field and off. And it's 2019, it's March, the NFL and its players are embarking on what is the largest fight in negotiation history between the two sides.

• 2:55Speaker 04

  2009.

• 2:56Ryan Clark?

  2009, I'm sorry, 2009. And D. Maurice, Fitzgerald, Smith.

• 3:02Speaker 04

  Okay, you were there for that meeting. I know, we'll get into that later.

• 3:05Ryan Clark?

  Yeah.

• 3:06Channing Crowder?

  That's not your middle name.

• 3:08Speaker 04

  That is my middle name. Fitzgerald, long line of Fitzgeralds.

• 3:12Channing Crowder?

  Boy, you better know how to fight when you was a kid.

• 3:14Ryan Clark?

  But you know, but honestly, D. Smith, Gene Upshaw had such a legacy in representing and being the leader of the NFLPA. And now this guy that doesn't have a football background, whose background is law, is elected president. We're embarking on an unfamiliar fight that will be taking places in arenas, not in stadiums, but in courtrooms, at negotiation tables. What made you the right man for that job with your background?

• 3:42Speaker 04

  I think the fight. I mean, look, in 2009, I remember getting a call from the search firm to see if I'd be interested in the job, and I told them, no. We had just elected our first African-American president. I was on the transition team for the Department of Justice, looking to become the US Attorney here in the District of Columbia. And after I told them no, they said, well, can we tell you just a little bit about what this thing is? And they laid out that the players were headed into a certain lockout because the owners said that they would. They said that the owners are already claiming they've got a $4 billion war chest. They're willing to lock the players out for a year. And the only three things that the owners want is they want the players to give up their pensions,

• 4:27Speaker 04

  they want the players to give back 20% of their salaries, and they want the players to play 18 games for free. And that struck me as just...

• 4:37Speaker 04

  A group of bullies just trying to dictate their way instead of sitting down with the men who actually do the work. I mean, I, I love what we've built in the NFL. I love watching you guys play. But the reality is the only people who are on the field getting their fingers broken, their backs broken, you know, and as we know from a couple of weeks ago, you know, putting themselves in harm's way, um, are the players. Everybody else is sitting up in the stands somewhere, you know, chomping down on another shrimp cocktail. And, and I always felt that that was an unfair thing. And I've always hated bullies. I decided that sure, if the players are interested in, in coming up with a way to fight that,

• 5:21Speaker 04

  to kind of protect themselves, protect their families, um, to try to do what's right. I mean, it's a rare day that you get to be at a point in your life where you can lead a group of people into the right fight about the right things for all the right reasons. And that was it. And then I had to go and explain to everybody else why everybody else on the outside thought that I was doing the stupidest thing that I've ever done in my life. My wife came through and she was the first person that said, your heart's in this. And, um, it's been 14 years. Um, it's only felt like 27, but, but it's been 14.

• 5:57Ryan Clark?

  Yeah, I, um, I, I've obviously been in those rooms and we've had very difficult conversations. Those conversations can get extremely confrontational, but we all understood that as you were for the good of the players, so was everybody who wanted to be in that room and be a part of those negotiations. From the outside, it has been said that you are extremely adversarial when it comes to the relationship between the PA and the NFL. What do you say to those people who see you being adversarial as a negative?

• 6:29Speaker 04

  You look, I, I think for the people who think, um, I'm overly adversarial, right? They don't understand the battle between labor and management. I mean, look, you had a group of nurses up in New York go on strike just a few days ago. You've had teachers go on strike all over the country. We're fighting with Starbucks workers who want to unionize their Starbucks. At every turn, the only people who are motivated to decide, think about it for a second. You're a nurse, you're a teacher, you're working at Starbucks or somewhere else, and you decide that you are so fed up with dealing with management

• 7:11Speaker 04

  that you are willing to not work in order to get what's fair for you. That's pushing everybody to the wall. And so if you don't understand that this is labor and this is management, that's what adversarial is, right? I mean, you've got the, the league has probably been the largest group of bullies in the labor market in the history of labor in, in America. I mean, we have a great business, and it's a multi-billion dollar business. And, and yeah, we've had people who have declared war on labor forever, but I don't know of another business in America that has antitrust exemptions. They answer to no one, there's no 10 Ks, there's no 10 Qs,

• 7:56Speaker 04

  there's no board of directors, there's no transparency, there's no oversight. The only people who can ever stand up to the National Football League, y'all. And so you have a choice. You can either go into that arrangement thinking that you can sit down with them and, and hope that they do the right thing, or you can decide that you're going to sit down with them and you're going to demand the right thing.

• 8:21Fred Taylor?

  I wanted to pivot and go back to your upbringing, but you struck something there when you said, we, us guys, you know, the players, former players as well. How do we get? The players to understand the type of leverage that they have.

• 8:38Speaker 04

  I think that that every player has to understand the the the prism that we we play or fight under. Right? Every person plays three and a half years on average. Our injury rate's 100%. And and yes, you might be Tom Brady on one hand, you might be backup long snapper John Denny. On the other hand, and that's a chasm between all of them. But I don't care where you are in the NFL matrix, you fall somewhere between those two prisms. Right? And and players first need to understand it. And then second, they have to realize the leverage that they have. And and ultimately, just like any group of people who work for a living, the real leverage that we have, just laying it on the table,

• 9:22Speaker 04

  is the leverage to withhold our services. Right? Again, going back to nurses, teachers, coal miners, everybody who has decided to not go to work uses that leverage that I'm just going to deprive you of my labor. Now, do I think that that is an easy decision for a group of people who play for three and a half years? No, because again, and I don't, there's nothing wrong with it. But if if you're an agent and you're only looking at the interest of an individual player, you'd say that individual player, well, wait a minute. You you, this guy's asking you to give up one-third of your earning capacity

• 10:03Speaker 04

  to get a CBA that is probably going to benefit everybody who comes, what? After. After. After. And and the greatest part of this job is, sure, you know, not everybody makes that decision. The greatest part of this job is we've always had reps, leaders, EC people who understand that our job is to sacrifice and pay it forward. And and look, we get tested all the time. But that leverage that the players have starts there. After that, you've got multiple other levels of of of leverage in sort of this, you know, game strategy matrix, and I hate to be a dork, but I'm a dork.

• 10:46Speaker 04

  Um, I I am. I mean, I just sit around doing game strategy all day because that's what I love doing. But imagine if every NFL player decided, you know what? I'm putting all this team stuff on my Instagram, putting all this team stuff on my Twitter page. Take it down. They don't pay for it.

• 11:01Channing Crowder?

  Right.

• 11:02Speaker 04

  When you went to OTAs, you get paid?

• 11:04Channing Crowder?

  Nah.

• 11:05Speaker 04

  No. So, when we're looking at, or when I'm looking at the game strategy matrix, yes, strike is at the top. But there's all sorts of things that, that you, we do as players in our ecosystem because we've just gotten comfortable with that's what football is, right? I want to start, and I've always tried to start, and you've heard this speech thousand times, stop giving away things for free. When you put, you know, your jersey or something else on your Instagram post, man, I think that's great. Look good, it's fantastic. But you know who loves it more than you?

• 11:40Channing Crowder?

  NFL.

• 11:41Speaker 04

  NFL and the team. They're getting full promotion about how much you love the game and how much you love them without you paying, without them paying you a cent. And you look at, you know, a few weeks back, um, I mean, a long time back, early in the season when Kyler Murray pulled all of his stuff, um, off his Twitter page, you know who lost their minds? The team. So, we have multiple levels of leverage. It just comes down to an issue of will.

• 12:09Channing Crowder?

  Why, the passion there too, RC was saying, and we kind of joked about it, but where did the passion come from, growing up? And then why do you honestly give a damn about these grown ass millionaires? Because that's how people look at players, like, why are these grown ass millionaires complaining?

• 12:25Speaker 04

  Where it comes from, my parents were, were very active in the civil rights movement. You know, my, my parents grew up in the Jim Crow South. Um, father literally went to the Marine Corps to escape the, the, the, you know, working on a farm all day. He was a sharecropper's son. Um, when he came back from the Marine Corps, realized that his only way out of the Jim Crow South was coming up north and getting a job. Uh, my mother went to segregated schools, same thing, left, uh, Atlanta, Georgia, moved up here, went to a segregated nursing school, um, got her nurse's degree, and that's how both of them, you know, put together a family, a middle-class family to, to support us. Um, I don't know, that, that passion comes from,

• 13:10Speaker 04

  they work really, really hard, under really, really hard circumstances. Um, they're thankful for their jobs, obviously, they love what they do. But we'd be lying to ourselves if we thought that they all started off at the same level of everybody else, right? And, and so, I've always been Motivated by this idea that for the people who work for a living, for the people who decide to punch that clock every day. Now, let's be real. The large, vast majority of people are not going to go to work every day and become millionaires. The reality, most of our players aren't going to do that and become millionaires. Once again, everybody who's dictating the rules are somebody else who's not really doing the work.

• 13:55Speaker 04

  And what I don't like in particular with NFL owners is, and I'm not saying all of them, just most of them. But they kinda, they kinda have this attitude that, that, man, y'all should be lucky and thankful. Just thankful for doing this. And, and our guys, our guys are so first, young and so happy to be there that the league takes advantage and the owners take advantage of your love of the game and your willingness to do what you want to do because you love it. And that's just simply being taken advantage of.

• 14:35Speaker 04

  And, and so, no, I mean, I don't go into a negotiating room saying, you know, Mr. Jones and Mr. Kraft and Mr. Goodell. I mean, if they want to call me D, I'm calling them Roger. You know, and, and it's not disrespectful, it's just leveling the playing field. Because you guys have, what, collectively forty years in the NFL between, roughly, right? At every turn, we could, this entire show could be about, tell me the most disrespectful thing you had to deal with while you were at a team. That's an entire show. Yep. Right? And then what happens? You win the Super Bowl, everything is great. Who's the first person that touches the trophy? The owner.

• 15:19Speaker 04

  Right? Yeah, I never even thought about that. Never thought of that. Wow. Now, I know, see, he came out, well, why are you always so angry? That's why, because all of those things that I see just strike me as...

• 15:32Speaker 04

  Somewhat disrespectful, right? I mean, if I owned a plant, if I, you know, and I can't imagine owning a coal mine or something like that, but if I owned something where people did something every day to put them in harms way, and at the end of the day, somebody comes down and gives them a trophy, "Great job for winning the whole thing", I'll be damned if I'm gonna be the first person to grab the trophy. Why does it go to him first? Right? It's just the little things. But yet, you've won the Super Bowl and you're thrilled. And so for us, and in this union, you look at our history, this entire history has been about fighting a group of people who have unbridled power, unbridled money,

• 16:16Speaker 04

  and an absolute unbridled will to break us. Just break us. And so, you know, if they wanna get after it, then man, pack a...

• 16:29Ryan Clark?

  You can say it.

• 16:30Speaker 04

  Pack a fucking lunch, right? You know, and so...

• 16:33Ryan Clark?

  Dee Smith, the passion is obviously there. I don't know if this will be the first time people outside of our walls and our world got an opportunity to see it. In 2011, we are bracing for the lockout and we make a decision at the Super Bowl, right? Pittsburgh and Green Bay.

• 16:54Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 16:54Ryan Clark?

  We aren't going to answer questions that are asked to us by the media because we're preparing for the lockout. We aren't gonna give you that. We're only gonna talk about what we wanna do

• 17:03Speaker 04

  Yep.

• 17:04Ryan Clark?

  with the CBA. And then you fast forward that, and we're on a call in late July about going to camp before CBA is actually negotiated and signed. And many people are saying, "Let's get back, let's get back, let's get back." I say, "Listen, guys, if we go back, I'm letting you know this thing passes. No matter what it is, they are going to pass it." Obviously, Charlie Batch, who was a great leader, was the team rep at the time. I was under him as a rep as well. And we decided as a team that we would vote no. We were the only team

• 17:36Speaker 04

  Yep.

• 17:36Ryan Clark?

  of the 32 when... You are dealing with the players, but you're also dealing for the players and you believe that there's one thing that's better for us as a group. But the players decide that they're going to go in the opposite direction. How do you deal with that?

• 17:55Speaker 04

  You know, I know people think that that's a hard place to be. It's not. You know, this job at the end of the day, I don't play. I don't, I don't pick up a ball. I don't go to camp. My high school coach will tell you I was the worst football player he's ever seen. My job is to, to, to provide vision, you know, game strategy and, and give people what I think is the best advice. Right? But at the end of the day, I insist on it being the player's decision. Right? Because anything less than that, you, you, you lose legitimacy. Right? And, and look, on the other side of the table, from the owner's side of the table, I mean, let's not get it twisted, they're killers. All of them. I mean, they're, they're all killers.

• 18:37Speaker 04

  I know, I know they smile and they do great things and they give a lot of money to charity. But you've been in the negotiating room with them. They will cut everybody's throat.

• 18:48Ryan Clark?

  Even their own.

• 18:49Speaker 04

  Even, we've been there when they've cut another owner's throat in a room. You sit back and you're like, right? Because you now realize that this is a group of people that aren't used to anyone telling them no. If you don't have it be the player's decision, if, if it becomes something that, you know, I dictate, in a weird way, you're, you're actually giving the owners power. Because they now know and they've got something on you. And they, and they'll come after me and they'll come after us. Our power, our ethos, our unity, what the union has to be about, has to be about the players. And, and look, you know, we, we got in those rooms and we shut the door and we can talk about a lot of stuff and there's some stuff that stays in the locker room. Right?

• 19:33Speaker 04

  But there were a lot of times we were in a room and we all didn't agree. And, and we got after it, right? And, and it could get hot, and it could get emotional. And the only thing I would say that I insisted on, still insist on is, and I, it just is. We can disagree in the room, and we can come after each other in the room. But man, after we all vote and decide we're all gonna turn right, or we're all gonna turn left, man, I'll be damned, right? If, if we're gonna get out of that room and then people start talking outside the room. Because, you know, you said it before we went on, on, on camera, man. It is all about the unity and the solidarity that we have.

• 20:13Speaker 04

  Sometimes solidarity as perceived is just as powerful as solidarity in, in, in reality, right?

• 20:21Channing Crowder?

  I would say from an attorney's standpoint, you're on one side of it. Defense or, you know, the prostitution or defense, if somebody wins and loses.

• 20:29Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 20:29Channing Crowder?

  But now you're in a situation where, obviously, the NFL, the owners and all, like you said, you're combative, I guess, and they, I would say they don't like you, or

• 20:39Speaker 04

  No!

• 20:39Channing Crowder?

  y'all aren't tight.

• 20:40Speaker 04

  No!

• 20:41Channing Crowder?

  Okay, just didn't wanna put, put words in their mouth.

• 20:43Speaker 04

  We're doing vacations together, man.

• 20:44Channing Crowder?

  Okay, but also, on your side,

• 20:47Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 20:48Channing Crowder?

  there's people

• 20:49Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 20:49Channing Crowder?

  that question you.

• 20:50Speaker 04

  Sure.

• 20:50Channing Crowder?

  Like, how do you deal with that, where, okay, I'm fighting you, but to your point, I know for a fact these people behind me aren't all with me in this fight?

• 20:59Speaker 04

  Look, that, that's a union. And, you know, the history of labor unions, um, that, that's just always gonna be the case. And, and my only thing is, look, if

• 21:09Channing Crowder?

  In this house?

• 21:10Speaker 04

  Um, this house, um, well, once the players made a decision, once we make a decision as, as a group of leaders here, you know, I, I love sort of the same sessions with our senior, you know, reports that, that I like in the room. Look, everybody here has told me a thousand times that my idea is stupid. Dumbest thing I've ever heard, we should never do that. I love that. Why? Because it gives me the bandwidth to come up With as many ideas as I think might work. And every now and then, people go, "Man, that is just the dumbest thing we should ever do." And sometimes, most of the time, I'm like, "Okay, you know what? I didn't think about it that way. That's a dumb idea. We're not gonna do it." But once again, if we decide that we're going to do it, if we decide this is the best strategy, then we're all turning right.

• 21:55Speaker 04

  Because that, if we don't do it that way, then we're not serving the interests of the players. And again, I think the toughest, yet rewarding job you can possibly have is being on the executive committee and being on the board of the NFL players. Because, man, it's something, I don't even know how to describe it, right? Until you get to rep meeting, you don't know what it's about. But rep meeting is the one time that all group of players are coming in, even though they play for different teams. They've all decided to come in to take their jerseys off, right? Not a Cowboy, not a Steeler, not a X. You're a family. And you get in and you shut the doors.

• 22:39Speaker 04

  And we just get after it, right? Because I want us to be here, I want us to maximize our strength, and you know there's players who disagree. And what's beautiful about the whole thing is, you know, I try to block out a lot of the noise, you know? I mean, the hardest part of this job is just the noise, you know? There's like, there's like 5,000 armchair quarterbacks who will critique what I do in the same way that they critique, "How well you played defense that day? Why didn't you do this?" I mean, how many times have you gone into a bar and some guy's looking at you and we're like, "Man, how come y'all didn't..." And you just wanna go, "Man, shut up." You don't know, you don't know what you're talking about.

• 23:21Speaker 04

  Most of the people on the outside who cover our sport, cover our business, like to cover our business like a sport. Who wins? Who loses? Who's up? Who's down? The business of the union, the business of the NFL players is not a sport.

• 23:41Speaker 00

  This episode is brought to you by Michelob Ultra. Good times mean competitions between you and your friends. Like seeing who can throw some pigskin the farthest, or rush the field the fastest. Winner gets an Ultra. Because it's not just a superior like beer, it's also giving fans superior access to their favorite sporting events. Superior is worth playing for. Visit michelobultra.com/superioraccess to enter. Enjoy responsibly. Copyright 2026 Anheuser-Busch InBev Michelob Ultra Beer, St. Louis, Missouri.

• 24:10Speaker 04

  I mean, it's just not. I wish it could be as simple as, you know, who wins, who loses. But what we're trying to do is simply protect our people with the leverage that we have, understanding that on one side, it's three and a half years. On the other side, it's injury rate of 100%. And that box means that we have hard decisions to make, right? You know, I love the people like, well, Dee, you know, like guaranteed contracts. Dee, how come they don't have guaranteed contracts? First thing I say to people is, what CBA guarantees contracts? Well, Dee, basketball, that's wrong. Well, Dee, baseball, that's wrong too. You know, if you could read somewhere beyond the third grade level,

• 24:54Speaker 04

  you would figure out that both of those CBAs do not guarantee contracts. Where do they come from? You know where guaranteed contracts came from? Free agent players in basketball deciding that they were entitled to guaranteed contracts. And then after that, every free agent player insisted on guaranteed contract. Well, the power for guaranteed contracts in the NFL has always been in the power of the players themselves. So that's the challenge, right? So, you know, what's frustrating for me sometimes is we get to Cousins' contract. I don't care how you want to think about it. That dude, modern time,

• 25:35Speaker 04

  effectuated the first fully guaranteed contract of, you know, at least in my lifetime. And yet, after he does his contract, we have three to four first-ballot Hall of Fame quarterbacks who don't insist on guaranteed contracts. They might have gotten a higher number, but who does that hurt? The next guy after them.

• 26:02Speaker 04

  So then you fast forward and again, you know, always a little controversy around this one, but Deshaun Watson does a fully guaranteed contract. What happens after his contract? You have several high-profile quarterbacks who don't insist on guaranteed contracts or can't get guaranteed contracts. So for us, we've got two questions we have to ask ourselves. First, talking about or looking at those contract negotiations themselves, did those guys fight for a guaranteed contract? And either they did or they didn't, right? Second thing we want to focus on is, is the league doing anything to prevent guaranteed contracts?

• 26:43Speaker 04

  And so, I mean, it's been publicly reported, we filed a lawsuit against the league accusing them of collusion trying to prevent guaranteed contracts. So that yin and the yang is a real yin and the yang. Yes, there's power in the players to get guaranteed contracts, but at the same time, the reality is, do the owners collude to fight the best interests of players?

• 27:04Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 27:05Speaker 04

  Yeah. And it's against our CBA. So, you know, it's a long answer, but people ask, man, why am I aggressive? Or why do I like to sue people? Or all the only thing Dee wants to do is litigate, or the only thing he is is a trial lawyer. There's not one single thing in that CBA that the players have ever gotten with us fighting to the death for. Just fighting to the death.

• 27:27Speaker 05

  Oh.

• 27:28Speaker 04

  Right?

• 27:29Fred Taylor?

  Along the lines of guaranteed contracts, protecting the players, etc. After the entire world witnessed what happened with DeMar?

• 27:35Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 27:36Fred Taylor?

  And you mentioned that the owners are bullies and, you know, they're different on that side of the table. Do you think they showed more compassion in those negotiations to potentially go down the road and visit that guaranteed contract?

• 27:51Speaker 04

  No. Um, you know, look, again, no CBA guarantees the contracts, right? So, I don't see the owners, and by the way, I mean, I'd be happy to be wrong, but, you know, if Roger wants to pick up the phone and call me right now, I'd take the call, right? But if the owners wanted to decide tomorrow to guarantee all the contracts, okay, I just don't think that's gonna happen, right? But remember... I think that there is so much confusion in the ecosystem about guaranteed contracts. And a lot of times, we're talking past each other. So 30 seconds on guaranteed contracts, right?

• 28:33Speaker 04

  So you take a person who is injured and they're still under contract. You guys know, in your standard player contract, you have an injury protection clause, where for the balance of that year, if you're injured and can't play, you're paid your full salary. So the first thing to be looking at their heads around is if you get injured in that first year and there's still money coming to you, you get paid under the injury protection clause of your own contract. And again, I think the number of people who probably know that is 12. In 2020, we negotiated the extended injury protection. So let's just say after that first year, you have years two and three on your contract.

• 29:15Speaker 04

  Under the extended injury protection program, year two and year three is 100% covered as a benefit. So your contract is guaranteed year two, year three, until you're done with your contract, up to a max, but it's guaranteed. Those were huge wins in 20, right? And I know everybody wanted to talk about the 17th game and everything else, but the wins that we got that were meaningful for the players was a 20% increase in everybody's minimum salary, but also a lot of changes in benefits that protect our guys. So, I mean, look, I love the job because I love the nuances. It's like sticking your hands into the muck and trying to do what's best for the players.

• 30:00Speaker 04

  But, look, it's a hard gig. And I think it's, but again, I think the toughest job in the union, player reps. I mean, it's a thankless job. Yeah, trust me.

• 30:14Ryan Clark?

  DraftKings 2, take one. Oh shoot, we up. Hey, listen, now it's DraftKings again. And you know what last week was, man? We got past wild card weekend. So now it's time for the big dogs. And any new customer that uses the promo code PIVOT, you place a $5 bet on any football game, and you get $200 in additional bets. And this is how we roll with it, Chan. But there's some other things that you could do if you don't necessarily just want to place that one bet.

• 30:39Channing Crowder?

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• 30:53Fred Taylor?

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• 31:07Ryan Clark?

  Download the DraftKings Sportsbook app on any of your mobile devices. And listen, what we did just now was put pressure on ourselves. So put pressure on DraftKings by signing up right now using the promo code PIVOT. Place a $5 bet on any football game, and you get $200 in additional bets. Now that's how you run it. Back to the show. Dee, like, we don't, and people don't touch OTAs. They don't get an opportunity to see that, or know what it is, or know the time spent inside buildings. What started many of these questions publicly now, and former players asking, and obviously, current players asking, was watching Damar Hamlin fall on the field. It gave everyone a different visual of what's possible playing football.

• 31:53Ryan Clark?

  I wasn't at your house, or in this building, but there had to be a protocol, or things that took place that night that were never practiced, that were not necessarily in place because of previous experience, that ended in Damar getting an opportunity because the NFL and the PAA talked about it, getting an opportunity to get the rest of his contract. Kind of explain to us what happens right when Damar falls, because we end up not having a game finished, right? And now, and then moving into the negotiation of making sure he was taken care of, and his contract was guaranteed the rest of the season.

• 32:30Speaker 04

  Yeah, well, I mean, look, that night... I was home watching the game. You know, I didn't know exactly what had happened. But you could, everybody watching, you know, especially if you've spent time with NFL players, right? You, you knew from the reaction that this was not, this wasn't a normal concussion, this wasn't a normal, wasn't even a normal neck injury, right? It wasn't a lower extremity injury. And you could tell something was, was wrong. I mean, I would probably say somewhere short of the 10-minute mark.

• 33:07Speaker 04

  I called Roger and it was, you know, clear to me at the point that we,

• 33:14Speaker 04

  this game, this game should not go forward. For me, it was making it clear that the leadership decision that needed to be made

• 33:25Speaker 04

  was that this game should end. That's just a leadership decision. And I know people talked about, you know, what actually happened and, you know, thankfully, we had a EC member in the locker room on the Bengals, Mike T. I talked to him. He gave me kind of an insight of what was going on with the players and what was happening and, you know, but from my standpoint, I don't even think this is a player decision. I don't even think it's a coach decision. I think it's a leadership decision. Of what's happened on this field is so completely out of the pale of what we should be dealing with in a game context. And, and no, I'm not a football guy.

• 34:10Speaker 04

  And I know people are like, oh, my God, you know, it's just a game.

• 34:16Speaker 04

  It's entertainment. And so, once you realize that someone is literally fighting for their lives on national TV, and people have watched the resuscitation effort, which, you know, I've seen.

• 34:41Speaker 04

  Games end. There's no room for a game at that point. And that's a leadership decision. And so, you know, I guess what, 50 minutes later, 45 minutes later, the game was the game was canceled or postponed. Right after that, you know, the only calls from the union side are, what do we need on the union side to make sure that the young man and his family have everything? So I flew to Cincinnati that next day, flew our medical director there, and I told Tom, you're there until he walks out of this hospital, making sure the family, whatever they needed, we had. The contract stuff came a little bit later, because to me, we're going to figure out

• 35:26Speaker 04

  the contract stuff, right? But to your point, we put in emergency action procedures back in 2011. We rewrote Article 39, which covers health and safety, because we codified everything that we thought should be the way in which the league and the teams deal with medical conditions or health conditions for our players. You know, people ask me, I'll never forget, people asked me back then, well, why did you insist in the collective bargaining agreement, why did you insist on language saying that the teams had to comply with all federal, state, and local and ethical laws?

• 36:08Speaker 04

  Because sometimes they don't.

• 36:11Speaker 04

  They don't. And so, you know, I'm proud of what we've done, because you could never anticipate something like that. But I'm glad that we had insisted on the right personnel being on the sidelines.

• 36:29Speaker 04

  I love the fact that we credential every team doctor, that we make sure that they have a certain amount of medical stature.

• 36:40Speaker 04

  You know, we eliminated team doctors having

• 36:44Speaker 04

  Financial affiliations with the team, right? Because that creates a perverse incentive to maybe find people that...

• 36:51Ryan Clark?

  Right.

• 36:52Speaker 04

  And you know, from this year, man, it's been a year. You know, we kind of got into it when I fired the unaffiliated neurological consultant that was involved in the Tua investigation. I'm sure that made a lot of those folks, you know, not happy and I heard from a lot of them. But we jointly hire and pay you.

• 37:15Speaker 04

  So if you decide that you're going to be somewhat disrespectful and not cooperate in our investigation, why should you have the job? And why should I apologize for firing you? No. No, they like it. But what do the players deserve? That.

• 37:35Ryan Clark?

  You know, you mentioned what do the players deserve? And we had an opportunity to listen to you speak about guaranteed contracts. And what the free agents in the NBA decided to do in taking those contracts. Right now, we're dealing with Lamar Jackson. And Lamar Jackson has been this very curious situation, I'd say. Because he doesn't have an agent in the familiar sense of having an agent. And obviously, I don't think people know that the NFLPA is a part of those negotiations. And the fact that you and your staff do their best to make sure people don't take bad deals. Because bad deals for this individual equals bad deals for the next individual.

• 38:19Ryan Clark?

  So when a guy like Lamar Jackson, at least rumored, is fighting to get a guaranteed contract. Because he saw Deshaun Watson get a guaranteed contract. He believes that he should, which is you, you've kind of intimated that's the way to guarantee guaranteed money.

• 38:34Speaker 04

  Hundred percent.

• 38:35Ryan Clark?

  What can you guys do to support him? Because now you get the, this is what's wrong with my knee. I can't, I can't play right now. And other things are being said from the other side. How can you support Lamar Jackson in making sure he's able to get what he's asking?

• 38:49Speaker 04

  Well, you know, three things. One, you know, the part of this job that I love the most, probably, you know, the part that the players hate the most, of course, probably is, I like to teach, you know? And you, all of you have been there suffering through, you know, me going through team meetings.

• 39:07Speaker 04

  The teaching part of this is so important because if you don't understand the role of free agent players in guaranteeing contracts throughout sport, you miss the fact that this is a pivotal moment, right? Because right behind Lamar, as talented as he is, think about the number of quarterbacks coming up behind him, right? I mean, we saw them play last night. We saw them play this weekend. We saw one play in the Super Bowl last year. All of those guys are coming behind him on those free agent contracts.

• 39:45Speaker 04

  So literally, the weight of whether we move forward on guaranteed contracts now, right? You've got the Watson contract, literally that could be bookended by Lamar's contract. So the first thing we do is teach. Second thing, you know, again, don't get into a lot of conversations we have with players and the people who are supporting them, but he has access to the full weight of the NFLPA, all of our research, and we stay in contact with him about those contracts because, you know, a bad contract for one person is a bad contract for everybody. And then third, we're going to make sure that we do our best to ensure that there isn't

• 40:30Speaker 04

  collusion by the owners to prevent that. And, you know, our grievances are confidential. Obviously, I'm only referring to what's been publicly discussed about collusion. But apart from guaranteed contracts, the owners have historically colluded against the players when it was in their best interest. I mean, you guys came up on the elevator. There was a picture of John Mackey. Owners colluded to prevent free agency. There's a picture of Freeman McNeil.

• 41:10Speaker 04

  He's the second or third player to win a jury trial against the owners to achieve free agency in 1993. They colluded against us in 2011 by locking the players out. They colluded by rigging the TV contracts to give them the $4 billion in salary. They colluded when they set the secret salary cap in 2010, right? Everybody was looking for the uncapped year. We all remember. And the union and Gene and everybody else before him had kind of built this poison pill into the CBA. And the poison pill was if the CBA expires, free market takes over, right? Salary cap was going to be $300 million because somebody's going to spend $300 million.

• 41:53Speaker 04

  Well, what we didn't know at the time was the owners got together, it all shook hands, and agreed to a secret salary cap. Except for what? Two teams. Commanders and Cowboys, right? So, I mean, the idea that the owners would come together and shake hands and decide to have a secret agreement that screws players? No one should be shot. No one. So, you know, going back to kind of where we started, does that make me aggressive? I mean, I just think it makes me a realist.

• 42:26Channing Crowder?

  But as aggressive you can be, and I understand totally what you're saying. Setting the market. This guy gets 40, so the next guy gets 41 and all that. But how unrealistic is it? I use myself for an example. When we're going in and talking about the CBA when I was playing, and y'all started talking about guys that played in the 70s are going to get more money when they turn 80, and I haven't got my big deal yet. Dee, I'm not concerned with their needs. You know what I'm saying? And even that where I want to get my money. Oh, well, if you take this, then this guy coming out of college in two years isn't going to get... I don't know him. I know my mom doesn't have the house I want her in. Like, that's the realistic part. You talking about getting these players on the same page?

• 43:06Speaker 04

  It's hard.

• 43:07Channing Crowder?

  That's why we have to have a union. Because if we could do it by ourselves and agree, hey, don't take that because you're going to mess me over. I got you, bro. They just offered me $30 million. I'm taking this money.

• 43:16Speaker 04

  Right. But that's why you have a union, right? And the greatest thing about the union, remember, we know they collude. We know it. It's OK and lawful for us to collude. When they collude, it's against the law. If the five quarterbacks got together and decided, "None of us are gonna sign a contract, unless it has this, this, and this." You know what? Perfectly lawful. If every defensive back, or free safety that was a free agent, in one year, and again, remember, we tried this with free agent D-backs, I think, one year, because we had that class. We had a bumper crop. If the five guys decide that, "I'm not gonna sign anything that doesn't have a two and a zero in it, that's fully guaranteed."

• 44:01Speaker 04

  And by the way, if he doesn't get the contract, none of us are showing up for camp. Perfectly legal. But it's hard, right? Because we've gone through that in the history of our union. We've tried to get that done. And just like the Super Bowl press conference, it only takes one guy who signs the contract, and the other five guys are going, "Wait, what?" Then you're stuck. But that doesn't keep me from trying, because if it's successful, the reason why the owners fight it so hard is we just need to be successful once. Once. Imagine if... I mean, again, we went through COVID. And the players decided

• 44:46Speaker 04

  OTAs was too much of a risk during COVID. So you know what? For the first time in history, we didn't have any OTAs. And by the way, football was fine.

• 44:57Ryan Clark?

  Right.

• 44:58Speaker 04

  It's fine. Next year, what happens? Everybody wants to go back to OTAs.

• 45:06Ryan Clark?

  Right, you had the opportunity because you didn't go that year, for whatever reason. Now, let's continue. Let the next crop, the next group do it.

• 45:13Speaker 04

  And honestly, I thought, I mean, again, I'm the Pollyanna in the group. I thought, once we got to that point where, for one year, nobody went, and football was fine. And you do the team meetings, guys are like, "Man, my body's never felt better." And then the next year, what happens? Because, again, what do the owners do? And what do teams do? And God bless them. Even the coaches I like do exactly the same thing. "D-man, you know, we just... We need to get younger players in. We need to kinda teach them what it means to be a pro. And I mean, it helps the game. It helps this." Don't get mad. I don't care. Right? Football was fine in COVID without OTAs. Fine. Nobody missed a beat. Great Super Bowl, great playoffs. Fantastic. We don't need them.

• 45:58Speaker 04

  It's just, you know, a coach, even the good ones, will work our guys for as long as they can work our guys. I have never met a coach who had eight hours or whatever to work guys, um, who decided, you know what, I only need five. Right. They go take what you give them. They will take it to the seventh hour, 59th minute, tick, tick, tick, tick, boom. No. That's just how they're wired. I get it. But we have to be in a position where we take back.

• 46:34Speaker 00

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• 47:03Speaker 04

  What's ours? And our offseason is ours. We don't get paid for it. Now, by the way, flip it around. If the teams then want to pay you to come to OTAs? Then you go? Kansas City is a team that pays the majority of their players to come to OTAs. I'm not, I'm not mad. Go get your, go get your money. But if you're somewhere else and they're dragging you in away from your family during the offseason, I mean, again, I'll throw it to you guys. What days did you not train during the offseason? He didn't work out.

• 47:36Channing Crowder?

  Yeah, I just, I just drank. Okay, cut that question. Yeah, Dee, I'm surprised when they talk about their resumes. I'm like, y'all did all that to play football?

• 47:48Channing Crowder?

  What were y'all doing when y'all were kids? I just go play. But, no, I see what you're saying. I should have had you.

• 47:54Fred Taylor?

  Yeah, he's in his knees are bad. He had seventeen surgeries. He could have been doing some rehab.

• 48:00Channing Crowder?

  See, here's the hater part.

• 48:01Fred Taylor?

  He could have been taking care of himself, Dee.

• 48:04Channing Crowder?

  No, you asked about working out. But I think, I think to your point, the guys that take this game serious. Yeah. They work out harder when they're not with the team. And that's my point.

• 48:14Ryan Clark?

  That's the, that's the, that's the worst part of, that's the worst part of the year. The one conversation that we've had before, and you know, this is probably after a couple of drinks at whatever pool we're at, you know, once the, yeah, once couple, a lot, once the, the meetings are over, over, was there's truly never peace. When other people don't see negotiations going on in these things, there's truly never peace. And for some reason, it seems easier to get the Ryan Clarks, you know, the, the free agent, the undrafted free agent who worked his way to, to be a good player. That guy's for everybody because he's been at every stage, right? I was undrafted, I was cut, I was a Super Bowl champion, I was a Pro Bowler, so I understand that.

• 48:58Ryan Clark?

  And I'm gonna fight for everybody because eventually I'm gonna be retired too. In 2020, Michael Thomas put together a video about what they wanted Roger Goodell to say as far as social justice mattered. And Patrick Mahomes became involved and other quarterbacks became involved. And now we had at least Aaron Rodgers and Tom Brady coming behind a movement because they saw that the tide had changed. It wasn't, it wasn't a negative like it was in 2016, 2017 with Colin Kaepernick. Right, it's comfortable, but what hasn't been comfortable for the star quarterbacks, the, the Patrick Mahomes, the Joe Burrows, the Josh Allens and all those guys, is to stand in front of the union, the quarterback clubs and all of those things.

• 49:43Ryan Clark?

  How do you get, think about this, in the AFC right now, the four dudes that are left, Trevor Lawrence, Joe Burrow, Josh Allen, Patrick Mahomes, all 27 years old and younger.

• 49:55Channing Crowder?

  Yep.

• 49:56Ryan Clark?

  How do we get those dudes involved? And what would that do for the game opposed to the way the Joe Montanas? And those guys were involved with the QB club?

• 50:07Speaker 04

  I think the beauty of those guys, those are union guys. And, look, I don't know, I don't know what was going through Joe Montana's head when he crossed. But it made him a scamp.

• 50:23Speaker 04

  And so, the one thing that I've always tried to do, as you guys know, when we show up for team meetings, I try to give everybody the unvarnished truth. I might tune some dudes up a little bit and call guys cowards for crossing the picket line.

• 50:44Speaker 04

  And I do it for two reasons. One, if you sugarcoat history,

• 50:51Speaker 04

  you disrespect history.

• 50:54Speaker 04

  And for all of those guys who stayed on that picket line, if I don't demonstrate the harm that somebody like Joe Montana did, it's disrespectful to the guys who stayed on that picket line and ultimately got crushed. Right? The second reason I do it is because I want every one of those younger quarterbacks and every one of those guys who come in, and they all heard it at rookie premiere anyway. Can't be you. Can't be you.

• 51:28Speaker 04

  So, you know, the reason why you walk out of this door, you know, and that wall facing that thing, facing the other history wall, the reason why we have Drew Brees and Peyton Manning and Tom Brady and Mike Vrabel and Vincent Jackson and Logan Mankins and Vaughn Miller on that wall, was because those guys decided to be the lead plaintiffs when we sued the league in 2011. And so, yeah, I mean, the reason why we spend a lot of time talking about that history is to pay homage to the people who fought the good fight. The other reason I do it is, man... You can't be that dude, right? And, and so I want every one of those guys, and by the way, those guys will be in the league when,

• 52:14Speaker 04

  probably will be in the league when they have a big decision in 2030. I want them to know that, man, Tom Brady did the right thing. Drew Brees did the right thing. Peyton Manning did the right thing. Von Miller did the right thing. Just as much as the Ryan Clarks and everybody else did the right thing. Because, look, I can't, you know, you know this. I can't make a player do anything. I can't make my kids do anything.

• 52:39Speaker 04

  All I can do is teach, try to make them understand where they fit in the fight, right? You know, to your point, why do I care about the dude behind me? Because I want the dude in the locker room in 2030 to care about your pension, even though you haven't played in a few years. Because I want that dude to vote to increase your pension from 10, 15 years ago, regardless of whether he knows you. But that's a, man, that's a thing that you either teach and you get, and you get the ethos of it. You either, it's like meat, you either get it or you don't. And so for us, you know, the, the next generation of player, you know, the good news, we've got a great CBA that's great until 2030. I'll tell you right now, 2030, what's going to be on the table?

• 53:25Speaker 04

  We're probably one of the last large companies in America that pay a pension.

• 53:33Speaker 04

  And that's going to be the thing that the owners are going to come back in 2030. Why? Because while we fund the pension, can dork in me, we have a tapped Hartley pension. What that means is, once you fund it, the employer is on the hook to make sure there's always enough money to cover the pensions. We're going through at least a mild, maybe soft R-recession. Do you know who had to put money in to raise the level of the pension fund? The owners. And they're on the hook. So I'll tell you right now, in 2030, what's gonna be on the, on the table is the owner's gonna say, "We don't need this pension anymore. We'll put $5 million into salary cap. And we'll increase your 401K.

• 54:18Speaker 04

  But then after that, don't worry about it. It's a problem."

• 54:21Channing Crowder?

  In this game, I know every, every Sunday night or Monday morning on late game, I'm getting up and I'm evaluating myself.

• 54:27Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 54:28Channing Crowder?

  And the coaches want you to say, "How do you think you played?"

• 54:30Speaker 04

  Yeah. Yeah.

• 54:31Channing Crowder?

  I'm asking you, Dee.

• 54:32Speaker 04

  Yep.

• 54:32Channing Crowder?

  And your, and your tenure, I don't know if you want to do letter grades or what?

• 54:35Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 54:36Channing Crowder?

  How do you think you've performed?

• 54:37Speaker 04

  I've always scored above the curve, so I always give myself an A. I'm kidding.

• 54:41Channing Crowder?

  Kidding.

• 54:44Channing Crowder?

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• 55:26Channing Crowder?

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• 55:48Speaker 04

  I always give myself, I think I'm my hardest critic, you know? I try to stay somewhere between B+ and a B-. You know, I, I think that, look, you, you can't go through this job error-free. Um, there were times certainly where, you know, I might be too aggressive in, in some instance, and, and not looking for a little bit of charity on the other. Um, there's probably times where I kicked off more fights than I, I had to. But, but on the other side, I've always prided myself on knowing who our opponent is. And while everybody else kinda wants to gloss over that these are just grandfathers who are love football and love the game and D, why can't you just be happy? You know, can't we all just be happy?

• 56:32Speaker 04

  No. No, because I want ours. And, and so, you know, I might grade myself a B plus on the, on the overall. Give myself an A minus on the passion.

• 56:44Speaker 04

  Probably give myself a C minus on the patience. Uh, cause I am not a patient dude, but, but again, you know, the overall growth of the union, um, that's A plus work for us, right?

• 56:55Channing Crowder?

  What's that one play you wanna get back?

• 56:57Speaker 04

  Man, there's more than one play, but one I would love to get back is I wish I would have chartered a plane after that night of the Pro Bowl and flown to the Super Bowl with you in Green Bay.

• 57:19Speaker 04

  Because I know it sounds like a little thing, but the NFL's prom is Super Bowl. It's the prom. And they have an emotional love of this prom that makes our high school prom look like chicklets, right? If we could have changed the entire conversation of the Super Bowl that whole week, where the players basically

• 57:52Speaker 04

  kinda gave the league the middle finger and they were talking about, well, why are you cutting off, um, the healthcare to our wives? Cause that's what they did. Why are you trying to force us playing two days for free? Because that's what you wanna do? Why are you trying to take the pensions away from people who are actually doing the work? Imagine, imagine the level of shift in the game theory that happens if that goes through. The thing that you and I and everybody else planned that week. That's a play I wish I had over. Because it would have been, um,

• 58:29Speaker 04

  You know, remember the first game of the season. You know, that was the, the Super Bowl thing was actually supposed to be a bookend. Because remember the first game of the season, everybody did the one team salute.

• 58:38Ryan Clark?

  Yep.

• 58:40Speaker 04

  And that was the first time, and I think the only time, other than maybe when most of the teams melt, you know, in, in 16. That's the only time I can ever remember. Any union, in any sport, getting every player to do one showing of solidarity all at once. And that Super Bowl thing would have been the bookend of that. I wish I had that one over.

• 59:07Fred Taylor?

  The 14 years, March 15th, right?

• 59:11Speaker 04

  Yeah, man, I look at that box and, man, 14 years.

• 59:15Fred Taylor?

  14 years, uh, the game has changed drastically. We sit at home sometimes and say, damn, we were born way too early. These contracts are crazy.

• 59:23Speaker 04

  Get one more.

• 59:25Fred Taylor?

  Uh, far from it. Looking back.

• 59:27Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 59:28Fred Taylor?

  You know, and looking forward.

• 59:29Speaker 04

  Yep.

• 59:29Fred Taylor?

  Uh, the game has done a beautiful thing. What drives you the most?

• 59:34Speaker 04

  I think probably what drives me the most is something that's, that's, that's near and dear to you. Think about that. When you grew up and, and all of us are in a household where we have some close connection to another generation of player who did exactly the same thing um, that we're doing going forward. And in the same way that all of you, um, you know, went through two-a-days, went through multiple padded practices, um, your coach could do just about anything they wanted to you, anytime they wanted to do it. What drives me is changing the work and your reward for a work where every day the players are better off tomorrow than they were yesterday.

• 1:00:19Speaker 04

  That's what drives me. And, and in the same way that your dad wanted something better for you, you created something better for the person who comes in the locker room, right? And, you know, I can remember one, uh, probably, he'll probably want to kill me for telling this story, but I remember we were in the thick of negotiations in, in 2011. You were there, we were in this room. Forget, you know, who was saying something, but I, one of the owners was talking about why it was so important to, to play 18 games, you know, and, oh, we're going to increase revenue, we're going to increase this, and it's like, yeah, but. You're not increasing the weekly pay for the player. Right? It's more work for less pay. Right?

• 1:01:05Speaker 04

  We had one guy on our executive committee at the time, he's now an NFL head coach, so I won't say his name. It's Mike Vrabel. Because I love Vrabels. And I remember one of the owners saying, you know, players should want to do this, players should want to do this. And I remember that guy turning to the owner, all of them, and saying, you know, you guys just keep wanting us to do more and more and more. And, but unlike me,

• 1:01:32Speaker 04

  I can't will my locker room, my locker, to my son in the same way that you, Mr. Owner, are going to will the team to your son. The only thing I can give to the guy who's coming behind me is a better game, better rules, better union, and a better CBA. And so, that's it. Right? And, and, and at the end of the day, this is a battle, you know, and I, I know they hate it, but do I think it's a battle between good and evil? Yes.

• 1:02:06Ryan Clark?

  You always say that.

• 1:02:08Speaker 04

  It is. I mean, you want me to sugarcoat it? I mean, yeah. I mean, are some of the owners, do we get along? Sure, but

• 1:02:15Speaker 04

  I don't, I don't see many of those cats, you know, willing you a 20% interest in the team.

• 1:02:23Ryan Clark?

  We used to get into those discussions about the owners and Roger Goodell and who works for who and all of these things.

• 1:02:32Ryan Clark?

  You'll be walking out of the door in 2024.

• 1:02:36Speaker 04

  Yep.

• 1:02:36Ryan Clark?

  As somebody who was in those fights with you, you were the perfect partner in that. Not that we always got along, not that we always agreed, but when, when, when it was time to fight, I knew you were going to fight. And I think that's always most important from where I sit. I'm going to give you an opportunity to answer a question I think I know the answer to, but not everybody who plays this game knows, is the NFL and Roger Goodell for the players?

• 1:03:07Speaker 04

  No.

• 1:03:10Speaker 04

  The NFL and the owners are there to perpetuate the game and the league. For the players, no. I mean, that shouldn't be a crazy statement, right? I mean, you were, you know, when you sit as a player rep, when you, all of you sat in those rooms in that 2010-2011 swing, right? I mean, that was as bad as it gets. We're not invited into the boardrooms, right? I mean, when the league makes decisions that they want to make, they don't typically call me and ask, "Hey, Dee, what do you think?" Right?

• 1:03:50Speaker 04

  We have a relationship that is codified by a CBA that is literally written off the backs of current and former players. There is not one thing, and I know it sounds like an overstatement, but there is not one thing in that collective bargaining agreement that the owners gave us. Not one. Talk about the injury protection benefits, fought for that. Pensions, fought for that. Offseason, fought for that. Article 39, fought for that. It's not a relationship where they wake up every morning saying to themselves, "Man,

• 1:04:34Speaker 04

  what's going to make Ryan Clark feel better and do better today?" And by the way, I mean, we've all worked with great coaches and great GMs, but the thing of the league is a multi-billion dollar entity that has no supervision. I mean, every now and then, I think people just don't understand the gravement of that. Apple, public board has to file 10Ks, 10Qs, SEC oversight, myriad of other governments, governmental agencies, state government agencies oversee them. This is 32 people. Who answered to nobody?

• 1:05:17Ryan Clark?

  In that Roger Goodell is the face of that. If I'm Bryce Young, if I'm CJ Stroud, if I'm these young players that are coming into the league this year, the young players that just got out. They're two, they're two people that we listen to, right? We get to see what Dee Marie Smith says.

• 1:05:34Speaker 04

  Nobody cares what I say.

• 1:05:35Ryan Clark?

  Right, but we get to see what Roger Goodell says. And the world cares about what he says.

• 1:05:40Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 1:05:40Ryan Clark?

  Should we trust the word of Roger Goodell?

• 1:05:44Speaker 04

  I think Ronald Reagan had that line, "Trust but verify." Um, I would just slap off the trust part.

• 1:05:52Speaker 04

  Because, look, that's not a knock on Roger. He is elected by the owners. You were in the league before me, um, all of you. Again, 40 years or so. When did, did you guys vote for the commissioner? Nah. I mean, and, and if you, you know, again, I teach and I'm teaching, I got my first class this year at, uh, back at Yale. The first lecture is just what are the leagues and what, what, what the leagues are and what they are not. The first thing everybody has to get their head around is this tag called the commissioner was a legal fiction in the first place.

• 1:06:34Speaker 04

  I mean, it dates back to, to Kennesaw, Mountain Landis, more stuff than you'd ever want to know, first, first commissioner of, of, of baseball. But the owners were clever. They realized, well, we want to elect a guy that represents just the owners. But we want to give him a title that makes it sound like he's working for the good of everybody. That's how the term commissioner came up. So, no, I never called Roger the commissioner. His name's Roger.

• 1:07:03Ryan Clark?

  Right?

• 1:07:04Speaker 04

  I mean, it's not like I sit down at the table and they're like, oh, hello, Mr. Executive Director. No, hell no. And we, well, put it this way, we sure as hell know from reading people's emails that they say other things about him. So, right, so let's not get it twisted. Let's just not, let's just not, absolutely, yeah. Hey, man Dee, great to see you. I'm like, yeah, until you send an email, right? So, it's good. But I didn't elect him, you didn't elect him. And this idea that there's this single person who's kind of hovering out there and, and I think you and I were talking about it before, that he doesn't take a side. Well, when that guy showed up in your locker room.

• 1:07:45Speaker 04

  Trying to sort of soft, you know, soft sell that thing that nobody, I'm just, I'm neutral.

• 1:07:50Channing Crowder?

  Yeah.

• 1:07:51Speaker 04

  That's why you raised your hand.

• 1:07:53Channing Crowder?

  Yeah.

• 1:07:53Speaker 04

  Like, well, hmm, not the way I see it.

• 1:07:56Channing Crowder?

  There's no lockout without two sides. There has to be two sides to a lockout.

• 1:07:59Speaker 04

  I can't lock you, right. And you know what? I didn't get a vote in the lockout.

• 1:08:03Channing Crowder?

  Yeah.

• 1:08:04Speaker 04

  Right? So... This is not a world where we should trust the people because of their title. He has a job. Great for you. I mean, makes a lot of money, gets a, gets a plane, it's all great.

• 1:08:18Channing Crowder?

  D, but, look, man, I just, y'all are fighting.

• 1:08:21Speaker 04

  You knew that this was gonna be the guy that comes out eventually, right?

• 1:08:24Channing Crowder?

  And, uh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I knew you were getting right. That's why I wanted, that's why I wanted to get you here.

• 1:08:28Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 1:08:29Channing Crowder?

  Just last one out of me. You're fighting people that don't care. It's an unbreakable, there's a recession-proof business. There's a, there's a league that's gonna make nine billion dollars a year. They tell you, they say this to you, D. The name, the, the emblem on the side of the helmet is bigger than the name on the back. You know why? Because if you break your neck, there's gonna be a safety, a running back, or a linebacker to step right in behind you.

• 1:08:51Speaker 04

  Never a shortage.

• 1:08:51Channing Crowder?

  If I get upset and want more money, they're gonna have somebody playing middle linebacker for the Dolphins, D. So you're fighting a unbeatable force.

• 1:08:59Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 1:08:59Channing Crowder?

  Every single day.

• 1:09:00Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 1:09:02Channing Crowder?

  What's the answer? What's the, what's the end? What finish line are you running to?

• 1:09:07Speaker 04

  Fight. Right. I mean, look, the people who came before us. Man, look, Martin Luther nails those things on the church door. Martin Luther King goes to Memphis because two union workers were dead, sanitation workers. So on MLK Day, what I always try to remind people is that, the, the, the single event that, that ushered Dr. King into immortality was him showing up because two unionized sanitation workers were killed on the job. That's why he's there. Yes, unbeatable force. But man...

• 1:09:47Speaker 04

  Our country, you know, whether it's, it's, it's, it's women who were fighting for equal pay, women, soccer players who were fighting for equal pay.

• 1:09:59Speaker 04

  The first strike by the NFL players, think about this for a second, just like one of those brain things, right? The first strike by NFL players was called a strike over freedom issues. The teams used to tell you not only what time to wake up, what time to go to bed, but what to wear, what you could say, where you could go, how long you could go, what you could say. I mean, those are things that are insulting as a man. And yes, it's a, it's an unbeatable force. But that doesn't mean that with, with, with good leadership, you can't fight good battles and win good wars.

• 1:10:35Ryan Clark?

  For us, it was just exciting to get to come back to a place that represents us.

• 1:10:41Speaker 04

  It's your building.

• 1:10:41Ryan Clark?

  And get an opportunity to sit down with you. Coach Tomlin, I think it was around 2010 or so, called me in his office and told me, "RC, you gotta stop throwing rocks at tanks." Because I would always talk about the NFL. During your time, during our time, and until you walk out of this building, I know you're gonna keep throwing rocks at tanks with other people that throw rocks at tanks. And here's what I know, you're never gonna stop the tank.

• 1:11:10Speaker 04

  Right.

• 1:11:10Ryan Clark?

  But you could chip off enough paint.

• 1:11:12Speaker 04

  Hundred percent.

• 1:11:12Ryan Clark?

  Where they at least gotta get outside and make repairs.

• 1:11:14Speaker 04

  Hundred percent.

• 1:11:15Ryan Clark?

  And that's what you've been doing, man, and I'm very grateful for it.

• 1:11:17Speaker 04

  Man, I'm proud of you, and it's been a pleasure to serve and for all of you. You know, I was in your locker rooms when, when you were playing and, and looking at you when we were a little bit younger. But all of you were, were soldiers. And, and what I love for a group of our men, playing a great game, having a great time, every one of you guys understood and appreciated the fight. And, and that is why, you know, I love this show, and that's why I look, my work will continue in other ways. But every time you guys just speak truth to power. You guys are still throwing rocks at tanks. That's what we do.

• 1:11:55Ryan Clark?

  All love, brother.

• 1:11:56Speaker 04

  All love.

• 1:11:56Ryan Clark?

  Yes, sir.

• 1:11:57Speaker 04

  That was awesome.

• 1:11:58Ryan Clark?

  Appreciate you, brother.

• 1:11:59Speaker 04

  That was awesome, man. Appreciate you.

• 1:12:00Ryan Clark?

  See, man? We don't do them little whack. Them little whacks standing at the microphone and talk. You know what I mean?

• 1:12:31Speaker 05

  Every game day, you show up for your team. Now, it's your time.

• 1:12:41Speaker 06

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