49: How to SMASH Days When You ‘Don’t Feel Like it’, How to Deal w/ Passive-Aggressive People, Advice for SOF Newlyweds

0:00:00 - Opening 0:12:06 - Jocko's Biggest change of opinion. 0:39:23 - Advice for Newlywed Special Operations Forces Wives 0:55:06 - BJJ: Best ratio of Drilling to Sparring. Dealing with Spazzes on the mats 1:13:46 - How to deal with Passive-aggressive People 1:27:16 - The best argument against Extreme Ownership 1:39:51 - Following Stoicism. 1:53:06 - How to deal with days when you "Don't feel like it." 1:56:24 - Interesting Internet, Onnit, Amazon, and Jocko Store stuff. 2:10:40 - Closing Gratitude Support this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/jocko-podcast/exclusive-content

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Jocko Willink?

  This is Jocko Podcast number 49 with Echo Charles and me Jocko Willink.

• 0:12Jocko Willink?

  It starts off quietly.

• 0:18Jocko Willink?

  When you're young, you don't quite know where it comes from and at first you don't even know what it is.

• 0:28Jocko Willink?

  But you know it's something.

• 0:33Jocko Willink?

  You feel it, you feel it growing. You're just a child, but you feel it. Something, something inside of you.

• 0:47Jocko Willink?

  And at some point, that thing, it crosses over.

• 0:54Jocko Willink?

  It goes from being something that you don't fully recognize, something that you don't completely understand. It goes from that to being you.

• 1:11Jocko Willink?

  Those things become you. It is you. It is your emotions.

• 1:21Jocko Willink?

  It is sadness and happiness and passion and anger and joy and it is rage.

• 1:33Jocko Willink?

  And those things, those emotions, they burn.

• 1:40Jocko Willink?

  And they burn hot. They're a fire that grows out of control. They fuel your mind and your body and your soul.

• 1:52Jocko Willink?

  And that marks the change. Becoming a person.

• 2:00Jocko Willink?

  Becoming an individual instead of a child. You release the inferno. You burn what you touch and you ignite those near you.

• 2:15Jocko Willink?

  And in that fire, you burn.

• 2:20Jocko Willink?

  You burn out of control and people around you.

• 2:25Jocko Willink?

  The people.

• 2:27Jocko Willink?

  The other humans, the normal humans. They do their best to extinguish that fire.

• 2:39Jocko Willink?

  They tell you to relax, they tell you to calm down, they tell you to get a grip, they tell you it isn't healthy.

• 2:51Jocko Willink?

  And that's because they are scared. They're scared of that fire in your soul and so they tell you that you are crazy.

• 3:04Jocko Willink?

  And because the anger and the rage and the sadness are so brutal and so hard to suffer through, you begin to listen to those people. To those normal humans and so you begin to subdue the fire.

• 3:27Jocko Willink?

  You stop feeding it. You start to get those emotions under control and at some point you realize this is better.

• 3:39Jocko Willink?

  Better to control those emotions, better to starve those passions, you begin to shut them down.

• 3:50Jocko Willink?

  You are a child no more, no more angry youth. No, now you are an adult.

• 4:03Jocko Willink?

  A responsible adult, you control your emotions, you don't let them control you.

• 4:11Jocko Willink?

  And the anger and the rage and the sadness, they begin to wither up.

• 4:19Jocko Willink?

  They become listless.

• 4:24Jocko Willink?

  Just memories.

• 4:28Jocko Willink?

  But when the anger and the rage and the sadness fade,

• 4:35Jocko Willink?

  so does the passion and the happiness and the joy.

• 4:41Jocko Willink?

  And of course, because it happens slowly,

• 4:45Jocko Willink?

  the creeping disease, you don't notice it. It isn't a bolt of lightning or a violent explosion that kills them, but a slow, slithering death.

• 5:01Jocko Willink?

  Then, one day,

• 5:05Jocko Willink?

  you wake up and you catch a glimpse of yourself in the mirror.

• 5:13Jocko Willink?

  And as you look into your own faded, lifeless eyes, you see something.

• 5:23Jocko Willink?

  Something you recognize. Something subtle and worn, but something still filled with a subdued power.

• 5:37Jocko Willink?

  And you remember.

• 5:41Jocko Willink?

  You remember what that felt like.

• 5:46Jocko Willink?

  What anger and joy and horror and happiness felt like. And you wonder what happened to them.

• 5:57Jocko Willink?

  And you realize that in order to control your passions,

• 6:03Jocko Willink?

  you destroyed them.

• 6:07Jocko Willink?

  All of them.

• 6:13Jocko Willink?

  But let me tell you, they aren't dead. They cannot so easily be killed. They are there and they are waiting to be released again.

• 6:27Jocko Willink?

  And, no, you don't have to let them get out of control, but you can certainly let them out into the wild. You can dance with them.

• 6:40Jocko Willink?

  And of course, while you need to balance them and maintain the upper hand over your emotions, you can still relish in their glory.

• 6:54Jocko Willink?

  But you have to let them out. You have to expose the nerves, feel the pain, feel the frustration, the sadness, the shock, the anger, and in those adverse moments,

• 7:12Jocko Willink?

  then you also get to feel the laughter, the joy, the gratitude,

• 7:23Jocko Willink?

  the passion.

• 7:27Jocko Willink?

  Because it is the passion,

• 7:31Jocko Willink?

  not indifference, that fuels greatness. And it is conviction, not tranquility, that drives execution.

• 7:47Jocko Willink?

  And while we must not ever let our emotions dictate our decisions, we are not here to eradicate our emotions.

• 8:01Jocko Willink?

  Control them?

• 8:04Jocko Willink?

  Yes, of course, you must maintain control of your emotions, keep them in check, yes, by all means. Emotional restraint is a necessity. But destroy them?

• 8:21Jocko Willink?

  No.

• 8:23Jocko Willink?

  That is not what we do.

• 8:30Jocko Willink?

  So,

• 8:33Jocko Willink?

  let your guard down.

• 8:36Jocko Willink?

  Expose your weaknesses, take some risks, open up your fragile soul.

• 8:47Jocko Willink?

  And those embers, those smoldering embers that you have tried to smother,

• 8:58Jocko Willink?

  but that are ready to ignite again and become an inferno of energy and of power, feed those embers.

• 9:10Jocko Willink?

  Light that fire again, stoke it with air and fuel and more fire.

• 9:20Jocko Willink?

  And let it burn.

• 9:30Jocko Willink?

  Good evening, Echo.

• 9:32Speaker 01

  Good evening.

• 9:35Jocko Willink?

  Those were just some thoughts I had, uh, as I was thinking about,

• 9:42Jocko Willink?

  you know, one of those dichotomies in life. And obviously I talk a lot about maintaining control of your emotions, but we can go too far with that idea. And I wanted to remind myself

• 10:00Jocko Willink?

  that if we take that idea too far, we're actually gonna regress backwards in a negative way.

• 10:08Jocko Willink?

  My opinion.

• 10:09Speaker 01

  I dig it.

• 10:12Jocko Willink?

  And last podcast went a little bit long, which brings us to straight up Q and A today.

• 10:21Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 10:23Jocko Willink?

  Questions from the interwebs.

• 10:25Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 10:27Jocko Willink?

  Bring it.

• 10:29Jocko Willink?

  Oh, you got some comment?

• 10:32Speaker 01

  Best way to submit questions, just because people have been asking me.

• 10:36Jocko Willink?

  Okay.

• 10:37Speaker 01

  Twitter, right?

• 10:39Speaker 01

  Or...

• 10:40Jocko Willink?

  Twitter's really solid.

• 10:42Speaker 01

  Facebook.

• 10:42Jocko Willink?

  Facebook is also good.

• 10:44Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 10:45Jocko Willink?

  Instagram, don't.

• 10:47Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 10:47Jocko Willink?

  Don't. I, I, you know, I'm on Instagram, but it's harder for me to compile those questions when people hit me with those. They don't stand out as much. They're in a caption of a picture, 27 comments down and it just...

• 10:59Speaker 01

  Right.

• 11:00Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, not.

• 11:03Speaker 01

  Not the best way.

• 11:03Jocko Willink?

  Not the best way.

• 11:04Speaker 01

  Yeah. Facebook, Twitter. Every once in a while, people will submit them through the store. And.

• 11:12Jocko Willink?

  Possible way.

• 11:13Speaker 01

  Yeah, i- i- it's good, but you kind of do run the risk of

• 11:20Speaker 01

  there being store issues that's that are pressing. And then I'm like, okay, let me get back to this question, whether it be to forward it or whatever. And so you run the risk of it maybe getting shuffled to the bottom or something.

• 11:34Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, I'm trying to think there might be a more efficient way to do it.

• 11:37Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 11:37Jocko Willink?

  Maybe I should just be doing a one. Maybe I should do for each podcast on Facebook, say, hey, if you have questions for the next podcast, ask them on this thread right here. That might be a way to do it.

• 11:50Speaker 01

  What about an email questions at?

• 11:54Jocko Willink?

  That, that might be a good idea too. Yeah, that might be a good idea.

• 11:57Speaker 01

  Interesting. Alright.

• 11:59Jocko Willink?

  If only I knew someone that knew how to set that up.

• 12:04Jocko Willink?

  Alright. Speaking of questions from the interweb, what do you got?

• 12:08Speaker 01

  First question. Jocko. What is the biggest turnaround on stance slash opinion you've ever made?

• 12:16Jocko Willink?

  Now, th- this is one of those questions that I sat there and thought about it for a while. And then I realized that the answer was sitting right in front of my face, literally, sitting right in front of my face. And that is this. It's the podcast, the book, the social media. All of it. Because I've, I've talked about this before, I was raised in the SEAL teams to be the quiet professional. And as a matter of fact, one of my, one of my favorite SEALs when I was a young, young guy at, at Team One, this guy was just a.

• 12:57Jocko Willink?

  Just a total badass frogman and learned, I learned a ton from him and he was actually, you know, some people will say, oh, that guy's good at everything. This guy was actually awesome at everything, like everything that there was to do at shooting, at fighting, at climbing, at tactics, everything that he did, he was awesome at and he was super, super hardcore, just tough. And in fact, one of the stories about him is that when he joined the Navy and he had to come to boot camp, I guess in San Diego, he paddled a kayak from where he lived to get to San Diego. And he was 17 years old, by the way, he was just a 17 year old kid, joined the Navy when he was 17 and then had no way of getting here.

• 13:41Jocko Willink?

  So he'll take a kayak, put it in the water and paddle to San Diego. That seems to be the, the smart way to do things. Sure. And so back in the day, he had a hat. And he had this hat and this is before you'd see SEAL memorabilia everywhere. You just see it, yeah, all over the place. He had this hat with just a trident on it, nothing else, just a trident. And then under the trident, it just said the words, "The Silent Option." And I always thought to myself, yes, that is it right there. That's us, right? The silent option. No fanfare, no news, no parade, no fame or fortune or glory of any kind.

• 14:26Jocko Willink?

  No, none of that, the silent option, that's it. And pretty much everybody that I looked up to in the SEAL teams had that kind of attitude. And there's something that is obviously so pure about that, that attitude. So selfless, that none of what you did as a SEAL was ever for any kind of recognition, ever.

• 14:54Jocko Willink?

  And that to me was sort of the code.

• 14:58Jocko Willink?

  Now, there were people that stepped out from that code. And while it certainly wasn't encouraged, it wasn't really ridiculed either, either. I mean, people, people did it. People wrote books and it was, it wasn't looked that down upon at the time. Unless you were a bad team guy. If you were a bad SEAL or if you were a guy that had a bad reputation, you would be crushed in the SEAL teams amongst the team guys in the community. Now civilians, they don't know the difference, right? I mean, to civilians, how can they tell? They just a SEAL is a SEAL is a SEAL. So they're good with it. But in the teams, if you had a bad reputation,

• 15:41Jocko Willink?

  your reputation would get even worse if you, if you broke the code. So when I retired, I had zero intention of, of going public, right? Of becoming this. And, and then when I started working with civilian companies and Leif and I formed the company, Echelon Front, and we, we realized pretty quickly that there's a big need for people to learn what we had to teach. And really quickly, the demand for us to write this down and be able to give it to people grew and it was really obvious to us. So when that started, when we, when that started and we started wrote it down,

• 16:24Jocko Willink?

  and then that started to transform. This idea of what we had written down started transforming into becoming a book, like a legitimate book. I, I got really nervous and scared and kind of almost sick, right? I was definitely, definitely very weary about it. And I think I did some little self sabotage along the way, just a little bit here or there. You know, I just, well, I don't know, you know, this is probably not going to be, you know, we, I think I did some of that stuff. I'd have to, I'd have to think about it. In fact, I know I did some of it. Um, because it's kind of an all or nothing proposition, right? You're either do it or you don't do it. And I guess you could try and use like a pseudonym.

• 17:07Jocko Willink?

  But then that doesn't really, that's not me, right? I'm not gonna, even, I'm not gonna make up a personality, right? And not be me, right? So that wasn't really an option. And furthermore, I knew that that doesn't really last either. I mean, the pseudonyms, eventually people figure out who they are. And so that's the way it works.

• 17:28Jocko Willink?

  And I think the thing that finally made me say,

• 17:34Jocko Willink?

  okay, I'm gonna do this is that I, um, as I decided like, okay, I'm gonna do this. I just kind of knew I wasn't gonna be anything else other than what I was, right? I'm not gonna try and put on some persona or be something that I'm not. I'm just gonna be me. And I've got, you know, that's what I'm gonna do. And so that's what I did. You know, the, the, the me that is here is just me. There's no, nothing special. That's just who I am. And that's all I did was basically expose what I am to, you know, people in the public.

• 18:14Jocko Willink?

  Now, the thing is, now that I actually am out there a little bit, and people can kind of see me in the world, right? There's definitely some things that I don't like about it. Or I shouldn't say I don't like, there's some challenges, right? There's some challenges there. For instance, you're being watched all the time. You're being followed and being, you're being judged. And those things right there are coincidentally the exact same kind of challenges you face when you're in a leadership position that I faced when I was in a leadership position. Oh, people are watching me. Oh, people are judging me. I'm used to that.

• 18:59Jocko Willink?

  That's what it was like when I was in the SEAL teams.

• 19:05Jocko Willink?

  And just like when I was in the SEAL teams, I always tried to stay true to what I believed in and what I believed was right. And not to say I never made mistakes, I obviously did. But I always gave it my all.

• 19:25Jocko Willink?

  To do the best job I could do and to take care of my guys, my brothers and my friends. That's what I always tried to do.

• 19:36Jocko Willink?

  And really, that's all I'm still trying to do is just to give something back, to pass on some of the things, some of the little things that I learned along the way. And really, when I get the feedback from, from my SEAL teammates, from guys that are still active duty in the SEAL teams, from soldiers and Marines that are retired, or guys that are still on active duty, or guys that transitioned to the civilian world, all those guys, guys from the front lines, that are on the front lines right now.

• 20:12Jocko Willink?

  And then guys that are law enforcement and firefighters. And when all those, that whole crew, that whole group of people send me some kind of thanks, it's awesome. And in addition to them, and I don't know if this is surprising or not, but I hear from just everyday, normal people, too, civilians, right? Businessmen, laborers, entrepreneurs, builders, mechanics, plumbers, electricians, software engineers, doctors, men and women, girls and boys, young and old, just every imaginable

• 20:53Jocko Willink?

  size, shape, color of person from every walk of life.

• 21:00Jocko Willink?

  And I hear from them. And when I hear from them and I see that they're getting something out of this, that makes those little challenges of judgment and scrutiny, it makes all those worthwhile to me.

• 21:24Jocko Willink?

  Because, once again...

• 21:29Jocko Willink?

  I feel like I'm part of something

• 21:34Jocko Willink?

  that's bigger than me, bigger than myself, something more powerful than I could ever be by myself.

• 21:45Jocko Willink?

  Something stronger than I could ever be alone. And for me to be doing what I can do to, to help that.

• 21:57Jocko Willink?

  And to have that, to have trying to help be both the task

• 22:07Jocko Willink?

  and the reward. It's a reward to help people.

• 22:14Jocko Willink?

  That to me has made it worthwhile.

• 22:19Speaker 01

  Yeah, I could see that. Well, okay, the silent professional.

• 22:24Jocko Willink?

  Mm-hmm. The quiet professional.

• 22:26Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 22:27Jocko Willink?

  And the silent option.

• 22:28Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 22:28Jocko Willink?

  Two different, uh, variations on the same theme.

• 22:33Speaker 01

  Is that, because if that wasn't there, you'd, I would imagine you'd get a bunch of,

• 22:41Speaker 01

  "Hey, look at me. I was such a, I was such a badass" and all these stories and, you know.

• 22:48Speaker 01

  Because I think that, like, what, what you and Leif have and, and even this podcast and stuff, sure, there's like references to war, but it's not about like, "Ooh, let me spin all the cool tales that, the war that I went through and stuff like that." It's, it's more about like the actual principles of leadership and what, what can be effective, you know? Even though I know the general public would probably want to hear every last cool story on how you saved this person or, you know, killed all these bad guys or whatever, you know, everyone would want to hear that. But that's not what it's about. That's not like what you're going public with, you know? It's more about like, okay, this valuable stuff that is, that is tried, tested in basically the harshest of conditions, you know, that work everywhere.

• 23:33Speaker 01

  And like, that's the valuable part. I don't even know if that's even.

• 23:38Speaker 01

  Like seeking glory in any way.

• 23:42Jocko Willink?

  Well, again, I've said this before, you can say that you're not trying to seek glory, but then when you write a 300 page book about yourself, you know what I mean? And then you have a podcast about yourself. It's like it just is what it is. Like, there's no, that, that has a level of, of self centeredness that you can't, I mean, you can't avoid, I can't deny, right? I can't deny, like, actually, no, the podcast is, it's, it's a podcast and I talk on it for two hours, right? That's, that's me talking. So there's, there is a level of that that you can't escape from. And I don't know if I talked about this before, but that book, The Electric Kool-Aid Acid Test, which I don't, maybe I'll do, but it's, um, it's about the hippies and the drug revolution.

• 24:27Jocko Willink?

  Well, there's one part of it where this guy is listening, he's up in Hayth Ashbury in San Francisco, and he goes on this tangent about how what they're saying is me, me, me, me, look at me. And when I read that for the first time, I was like, oh, I never want to be that person that's saying that. And that's that, but again, the dichotomy here is I have a podcast, I have a book and, and that book is me and the podcast, me. And so it's unavoidable to have a podcast that you talk on and not have it somehow be about you. It just doesn't happen. So that's a real challenge and I do my best to mitigate that.

• 25:11Jocko Willink?

  But you can't stop it. It is factually a podcast that I'm in. It is factually a book that I wrote.

• 25:21Speaker 01

  Right.

• 25:22Jocko Willink?

  You know, it's a book that factually Leif wrote. So that's just what it is. And so you can't take those away. The only thing that mitigates that feeling from me is again, what I just said is when you got, when I got soldiers, marine, when I got SEAL teammates of mine, that. Are fired up and they're they're they're saying, hey, that was awesome. Thanks for that one. This this was great. I I never knew that or whatever they're gonna say, right? And then on top of that, you know, you get civilians that are saying, hey, I stopped using drugs because of your podcast. That is awesome.

• 26:01Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 26:01Jocko Willink?

  I don't like drugs. And so when somebody tells me that they stopped using drugs because of the podcast, that that makes me feel very gratified. When somebody calls me up, I just had or somebody on Twitter just said a guy's like fifty three years old. And he said, hey, I've lost X amount of pounds, forty something pounds. And he said, I just did the first legit pull up of my life. Fifty three years old, fifty three years old, just did the first legitimate pull up of his life. He's like, thank you. That is worth the the the daggers that stick me in my brain because I know I sold out.

• 26:41Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 26:41Jocko Willink?

  I sold out, but that's what it is.

• 26:45Speaker 01

  Is is that is it just in your, I mean, do you get like scrutiny from people at all for quote unquote selling out? Or is it, or do you think?

• 26:54Jocko Willink?

  My my my bros and the teams are fired. They're.

• 26:58Speaker 01

  Right. That's what I would think. And it is because the whole dynamic, I mean, yeah, I mean, you gotta be like Jocko Podcast. It's called Jocko Podcast. It's about me. You kind of have to do that. Yep. I mean, there's there's a small element of that that you have to include about yourself.

• 27:13Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 27:13Speaker 01

  For credibility reasons, all this stuff. But then aside from that, it's it's valuable stuff. It's not glory seeking stuff at all. This is like stuff that's helpful. It'll help like if you the stuff that you can benefit from from this podcast, from the book. If your neighbor, if the people in your neighborhood all incorporated these principles into their life, it'd be a better neighborhood. So it's not like, you know, I'm just this, you look at me, I'm a warrior. You know, it's not that.

• 27:40Jocko Willink?

  No, no.

• 27:42Speaker 01

  So it makes it worth it. I mean, I I dig it, though, that like tradition, if let's just say, if there is like a person who's like, hey, you know, like, hey, I dig what you're doing, but you shouldn't do that. That's the code. That's the tradition. That's the you know, the code you sold out. I would understand that, but I think that's just like you're not looking at the big picture.

• 27:59Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. Yeah, no, it definitely was when I hear back from when I hear like I said, when I hear from active duty military, when I hear from my SEAL bros that are that are telling me this is awesome. That that's that makes it worthwhile to me and that's sort of why I keep doing it that and again. These civilian folks that are out there that are that are just changing their lives and and again, I whenever they say, oh, thank you. I say, I didn't do anything. You did it. That guy that did his first pull up, his first legit pull up in 53 years of life. You know what? That's awesome. I didn't do that pull up. He did. He had to put all the work in. All he did was change his attitude and get in the game.

• 28:39Jocko Willink?

  And now he's, you know, having a much better situation in his life because your life is better. If you go from zero pulls to one, your life just got better. Your life just got a lot better as a matter of fact.

• 28:49Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 28:49Jocko Willink?

  So, yeah, but but it was interesting as I sat here and talked about the when I thought about the question, the biggest turnaround. I've been really pretty steady in my beliefs for a long time. I mean,

• 29:02Speaker 01

  About this, you mean?

• 29:03Jocko Willink?

  No, just in general, just like in general, if you if you were to interview me now and you interviewed me 10 years ago. They'd be close. I was probably a little bit dumber 10 years ago. I was dumber six months ago, but my broad beliefs would be somewhat similar, right?

• 29:19Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 29:20Jocko Willink?

  And so I was thinking, okay, what's the biggest turnaround? And then I realized, oh, yeah, obviously, this is a huge turnaround for me. And and there were guys that, you know, when guys in the SEAL teams found out that I had a book coming out, there was definitely some guys that were like, dude, what are you doing? And I was, you know, and then they'd read it and say, hey, man, credit. It's cool. All good, you know, and that's the way it is.

• 29:43Speaker 01

  Let's say you were to

• 29:46Speaker 01

  not rewind life, but you're take the Jocko from before

• 29:53Speaker 01

  before Ramadi, how about that? Jock from and then the idea was introduced, hey, like, what do you like, what did you feel about that? Like if someone went and wrote a book and did, you know, did a podcast or something like what was your take on it?

• 30:05Jocko Willink?

  No podcast back then, but generally, generally negative. That's that's why it's a big turnaround.

• 30:11Speaker 01

  Right.

• 30:11Jocko Willink?

  Because if you told me that years ago, I'd be like, oh, you know, we're quiet professionals. We don't do that kind of thing. So here I am, Mr. Quiet Professional.

• 30:19Speaker 01

  Yeah, not so quiet.

• 30:20Jocko Willink?

  Not so quiet.

• 30:23Speaker 01

  Still a professional, though.

• 30:24Jocko Willink?

  Trying to keep it professional. Definitely trying to keep it professional.

• 30:29Speaker 01

  Yeah, man, it's good. Yeah, the is there, you know how like some, you know, people who who change their attitude on things all the time, sometimes get frowned upon. This is just in general for for being like a flip flopper. Or something you see it in like politics and stuff. But isn't that kind of good if your if your ideas about things always are updated?

• 30:48Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, it's okay with me. I don't mind. I don't mind if people change their opinion over time as they as they bring on new knowledge. But there's a point where that becomes ridiculous.

• 30:58Speaker 01

  Right. Yeah. Well, yeah, it kind of depends on why they're changing their mind.

• 31:04Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, it's true, too.

• 31:04Speaker 01

  So if it's like with the introduction of new facts and stuff like that, then they're like, okay, I didn't know all that. Now, you know, it paints a broader, you know, more accurate picture. So now I feel this way or starting to feel this way about. But there's a there's a bias, you know, talk about cognitive bias called it's called, I think it's called backfire effect. And it's the opposite. So like new factual information will come in. And the tendency is to be like is to dig deeper into your current belief.

• 31:30Jocko Willink?

  Oh, for sure. In fact, I can I can talk about that. I I've seen that happen before. And what I've seen that happen is people, when they the way that they first learn to do something in the SEAL teams is the way they believe is correct. And you have to beat it out of them. Like old, as we learn new tactics, whatever, wherever some guy went to their first training at a SEAL team, wherever they went and whoever taught them, that's sort of what they believe. And anyone else that comes in with a new idea will be, oh, yeah, man, you don't know what is. No, that's not the best way. And so and I I figured that out real quick when I was in training, when I was when I was running training. And I realized, oh, oh, I got to get over this barrier of, you know, this guy learned it at this team or wherever.

• 32:15Jocko Willink?

  And or he learned it from this guy. And so he's got to have that in his head that that's the only way to do things. Cool. Just gotta just gotta I wouldn't aggressively attack it, of course. I'd say, oh, yeah, that's a great tactic what they do. Yeah, that this and you know what? What we're about to show you actually mixes in with that tactic. Good. You might want to, you know, it's something you could use along with your tactic. And then they realize that the tactic we're teaching is superior. Because we've evolved, right? I had to evolve. We learn tactics, new tactics all the time. The fundamental principles didn't change. But the execution. At a tactical level would change because we got better.

• 32:46Speaker 01

  Updated, yeah.

• 32:47Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, well, it's called war, you know, we went to war. And as soon as we went to war, we started figuring out some of the stuff where that we had been taught didn't really function the way we, it was literally like pre UFC martial arts.

• 32:59Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, that's what I'm saying.

• 33:00Jocko Willink?

  Right? You know, pre UFC martial arts, if you learn that, you know, if I touch your neck in this particular manner, you're gonna fall down and nothing is gonna save you from that. And if you get taught that, you might believe it.

• 33:13Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 33:14Jocko Willink?

  And then somebody punches you in the face.

• 33:16Speaker 01

  I know.

• 33:16Jocko Willink?

  Or does a double leg takedown on you and slams you into the ground.

• 33:19Speaker 01

  Yeah, when you try to hit their neck or something.

• 33:21Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, when you try and karate chop their neck. So it was the same thing in the SEAL teams. We had tactics that had evolved during a peacetime environment in a, in a bubble. And so when the war started, we said, ooh, okay, we need to, we need to do an immediate check on all these things.

• 33:36Speaker 01

  Yeah. My friend was in from out of town this past weekend. We watched the fights and the guys were in this specific position, you know, standing kind of from the back there and he, and he asked, um, he's like, hey, couldn't he just like throw knees and give him like the meanest charlie horse right there? And then we were like, you know, it's not, we don't say it's not condescending or anything, but if you don't know, you don't know. Yeah, it's like, so we said, no, I mean, yeah, you could, but that wouldn't do anything. I mean, I don't think you even feel that, you know?

• 34:09Jocko Willink?

  No, not during a fight, not during a UFC fight.

• 34:11Speaker 01

  How I put it was, I said, charlie horses are for when you're cruising and you see your friend, you're like, I'm gonna give my friend a charlie horse and you do it and it like hurts him. He's like, oh, you know, but no, when you're in fighting, like, yeah, you don't really feel a charlie horse.

• 34:24Jocko Willink?

  You know, now, that being said, if somebody, if you're in a position and somebody starts dropping

• 34:30Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 34:30Jocko Willink?

  12 to six elbows onto your thigh.

• 34:34Speaker 01

  And they're big enough.

• 34:34Jocko Willink?

  And they're big and you're kind of stuck there, you'll feel those. And you'll see a guy, even in the UFC, you'll see a guy make adjustments and move because he doesn't want to get, take, you know, 12 of those shots. That's not gonna be fun.

• 34:45Speaker 01

  Yeah, my example was a leg kick. So a leg kick is essentially. Can be like a charlie horse. You know how like, you know how like you give your friend a charlie horse?

• 34:53Jocko Willink?

  Really gnarly charlie horse.

• 34:55Speaker 01

  Exactly, right. And that's the point.

• 34:56Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 34:56Speaker 01

  The point is like, what you would think is a common charlie, charlie horse, like with your friend or at school or whatever, like, oh, like an elbow, you punch it, or even you kneel it or whatever, um, is different than like the kind of charlie horse that will be effective in.

• 35:10Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, and but in a fight, in MMA, it takes even ninety-nine percent of the time with leg kicks, it, it does take multiple, it takes rounds worth of leg kicks before you can actually affect the guy. It might slow the guy down a little bit. He's a little less apt to, to be, have weight on that front leg or whatever, but then, you know, you see, there's been fights that have ended because third or fourth round, the guy's been kicked in the leg forty-seven times and it's, it's just easy, he breaks.

• 35:37Speaker 01

  Yeah. Yeah, it's just, yeah, again, just one of those things like if, if you don't know, you don't know. You think that's how it is and then get updated information.

• 35:49Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, there's much in the world that looks like that. If you, if you don't know, it, it seems like it'd be easy.

• 35:54Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 35:55Jocko Willink?

  And it's not easy. And jiu-jitsu is a classic or MMA is a classic example of that, but there's so many things. I mean, even a normal sport. You know, baseball.

• 36:05Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 36:05Jocko Willink?

  Hey, how hard can it be to hit that ball?

• 36:06Speaker 01

  All sports, actually.

• 36:07Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, all sports. Uh, rock climbing. You know, you look and say, oh, that dude, why don't you just grab that thing right there?

• 36:13Speaker 01

  Yeah, just hold on.

• 36:14Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, just hold on. No, doesn't work that way.

• 36:16Speaker 01

  Yeah. Football, like, you know, when they drop the bars, oh my gosh, you couldn't even catch that ball, it's right in his hands. Okay, so Trey, you're, you're a football now. Of course, they're trained to understand, but you, you know, that's kind of part of the point, you know? Them being trained made it look like it's so easy. You've seen it done all that, all those times.

• 36:32Jocko Willink?

  And, and what's interesting is when this transfers over into the interpersonal and the leadership realm.

• 36:39Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 36:39Jocko Willink?

  And it's the same exact thing where if you don't know, you don't know. And you see people that are, you know, younger leaders or they're not very experienced and they'll be making the same kind of rookie mistakes or have the same kind of. Of of opinion of why don't we just tell them to do this? Oh, it's very easy. Why you tell them can't tell them just tell them to do that? You just tell them to do that. They're just not going to listen to you.

• 37:01Speaker 01

  Right.

• 37:01Jocko Willink?

  Because they don't have respect for you because you don't have a relationship with you and you haven't built anything up yet. So you can end up with the same thing in that aspect of life as you do in a warfighting aspect of life as you do in a sports aspect of life. It's all the same.

• 37:13Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 37:13Jocko Willink?

  You gotta learn the skills. You gotta practice the skills.

• 37:18Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's true. Even like shooting a gun.

• 37:20Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. Oh, super easy, right?

• 37:22Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 37:23Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. Let's see somebody knock out. You know, it's it's it's a skill. I mean, it's easier. It's obviously easier to kill someone with a gun than it is with a knife or with your bare hands. It's an easier method, but yeah, you see, you know, you see this all the time. You see little gunfights where people fire shoot twenty twenty-five rounds at another guy and they don't hit them.

• 37:46Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 37:47Jocko Willink?

  And they're only ten feet away, you know? So shooting is easier, but it it still is a skill that you need to practice.

• 37:55Speaker 01

  No, man, and that's not to mention just all the like input they like just firing it, you know? You know, like on movies, the guy will be like one hand, you know, whatever, boom, boom, boom, boom. A real a more accurate representation of how it would go is like, you know, the kind of movies where the girl that they they they totally demean women a lot of the times when they the girl grabs the gun and she's like, ah, and she shoots it and then like it flies out of her hand.

• 38:18Jocko Willink?

  Oh, yeah.

• 38:19Speaker 01

  That's probably pretty accurate if you never shot a gun.

• 38:21Jocko Willink?

  Well, yeah, if someone's never shot a gun before.

• 38:23Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 38:23Jocko Willink?

  The first time I ever took my wife to a range to to teach her shooting and she was kind of that way, you know, kind of scared and intimidated and she was kind of almost shaking a little bit. And a half an hour later, I had her doing quick draws from the holster, gunning down targets. I said, yeah, you're over it now, aren't you? She says, shut up and reload my magazine. I'm like, OK, cool. We got this.

• 38:44Speaker 01

  Yeah. You ever seen those videos online? I mean, I don't know how much time you spend watching videos online, but they're more just for entertainment, but of people like shooting like big guns in it.

• 38:55Jocko Willink?

  Oh, and it hits them.

• 38:56Speaker 01

  Hits them in the face and stuff.

• 38:57Jocko Willink?

  Those are good. I if I'm going to spend time watching videos, I'm watching actually guys that are good that have some knowledge to put out on shooting.

• 39:03Speaker 01

  Right, right. Stuff you can learn.

• 39:04Jocko Willink?

  So check. Although you can learn from watching somebody get hit in the face with a shotgun.

• 39:09Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 39:10Jocko Willink?

  When they shoot it wrong. All right. Awesome.

• 39:12Speaker 01

  Next question. I had a few questions relating to my family life for guys who join the SEALs. My boyfriend is interested in taking the pass. So this is coming from the girl?

• 39:22Jocko Willink?

  Oh, okay.

• 39:23Speaker 01

  Interesting. Jocko, you have mentioned being married while a SEAL. Was it hard on you and your wife and family? Advice for a newlywed SOF candidate?

• 39:35Jocko Willink?

  That stands for SOF, Special Operations Forces.

• 39:38Speaker 01

  There you go.

• 39:39Jocko Willink?

  So, this is actually, this was two questions and basically from the other side. And Pete, by the way, everyone that's asked, can I bring my wife on here? My wife has given the stern negative. She's not coming. You know why? Because she's a legit quiet professional. She's just a legit quiet professional. She doesn't want any of this.

• 40:00Speaker 01

  Glory.

• 40:01Jocko Willink?

  Glory. No, she did it just because she loves the job. So, my wife had said no. And someone said, you know, I said, went back and forth with somebody on social media. And they said, hey, flank her. And I'm, hey Ben, she knows this game, bro. She's not going to get flanked. It's super easy. But what I'm doing is kind of playing a long-term game. I'm planting some seeds and whatnot, trying to get her maybe to think about how she could help some other folks out there. So, you know, we're trying to work through. There is some flanking activity going on. We're going to see where it goes. But to this question. Being married to a guy that's in special operations or in the SEAL teams or whatever. It is a hard life. In many ways and

• 40:46Jocko Willink?

  you know, the SEAL teams, we had a 90% divorce rate. By the way, a 90, and I think it's come down a little bit. I'm not 100% sure. I don't know what the current numbers are to date, but man, when I was a young kid, everybody was divorced. You know, guys were just getting married and divorced all the time. So, here's the, here's the couple of things that I would tell you that I think may Made my marriage last, right? Aside from my wife being awesome, of course, right? Full credit. But here's a couple of things. Number one, um, you have to respect the fact that the job is the number one priority. And that is completely different from what a lot of people think, and I don't mean to be offensive by that.

• 41:32Jocko Willink?

  By saying that, but the job has to be number one. And for me, and I've said this before on interviews, the job was the most important thing to me. And my wife didn't take offense to that. She didn't, when I said, I'm going to work, but it's Saturday, doesn't matter. You know, oh, I'm going, I'm gonna not gonna be coming home tonight. Why? I'm going to work. And then I'm going out with my friends. Cause we're gonna go and hang out, cause that's what we do. And she never would get offended by that. Instead, she realized, okay, yeah, his job is the most important thing. He's got to take care of himself. He's got to take care of his guys. He's got to take care of his job. He's got to take care of the country. So I am number two. That's cool. You know what I need to do is help support him. And so that is, that is

• 42:15Jocko Willink?

  what was happening. And, and so what that means is your wife, in this case, you, young lady that's asking this question, you need to be an independent person, right? You, you need to be self-sufficient. And, and that's not just self-sufficient with, you know, being able to

• 42:36Jocko Willink?

  clear the toilet when it gets clogged up and, you know, call the plumber when the water heater breaks and handle all that administrative stuff. And all the tasks around the house and provide, you know, take care of the finances, because your, your, your husband's gonna be gone. He's gonna be gone. He's gonna be on a workup. He's gonna be, he's gonna be gone a lot. And so you gotta be able to handle all that stuff. And on top of that, you have to be self-sufficient emotionally. Emotionally self-sufficient where you don't need to have this constant, you know, constant flow of affection coming from this guy who has a bunch of other things to worry about.

• 43:14Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 43:15Jocko Willink?

  Right? So, that's hard to do. And it's hard, I think that's one of the problems. I mean, that's why there's probably a high divorce rate because it's hard to find a, a girl or a woman that can do those things.

• 43:29Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 43:29Jocko Willink?

  Right? So, it's that, that will make, that's part of the solution here. Now, the husband, obviously, big things you gotta do is leave your job at work. Right? And don't, don't bring it home with you. And I've talked about this before, you know, in the SEAL teams, you don't have to, you, when you get done with work, you change, you put on your civilian clothes, you go home. So you're not bringing that with you. That's sort of a psychological moment to change and, and get those out. But there's also the attitude that you can carry over very easily because

• 44:07Jocko Willink?

  the SEAL teams and, and special operations in the military in general, but definitely the SEAL teams is a hostile environment with your friends. Your friends are not supportive, caring, nurturing friends. No. Your friends are just, just savages, right? Everything, they're looking for weakness. It's, I mean, it's all fun, but it's all just a constant, it's a constant just battle, verbal battle, verbal abuse all day long. It's fun. Like, we're having fun with it. That's the sick sense of humor, you know, when Tim Kennedy was on here and they made that movie Rage, Range 15 and all, all that, that like kind of sick, twisted sense of humor is what you're living in.

• 44:50Jocko Willink?

  And there's a real problem that occurs when you take that little sick sense of humor and that abusive personality that you develop at work and you bring it home.

• 44:58Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 44:58Jocko Willink?

  And that happened to me when I went to college. And all of a sudden I wasn't around any team guys anymore. All day long, no more team guys. And then here I am. And what do I do now? I come home from going to school all day, which was annoying. And then the first person I talked to, because I didn't talk to anyone when I went to school, unless I was asking them a specific question about some knowledge or some thing that was happening in a class. Other than that, I didn't make any friends. So I come home and I wanna socialize. Well, was the only way I knew how to socialize with people. Cutting them down, abusing them. And that's a little bit strong, but you know, definitely making comments and, and trying to have a good time through,

• 45:42Jocko Willink?

  through cutting people down. And so, you know, and I've talked about this before, I, I think somebody's kinda grabbed onto this, but you know, for instance, you know, before I was going to college, when I was just in the teams, my wife would make dinner, whatever it is, she makes it, hey, cool, thank you, appreciate it. When I was going to school, all of a sudden I'm not around team guys anymore. I wanna have some fun when I come home. And you know, she'd cook me something and I would have some comments about it, right? And, and eventually, and it was very clear when she said this to me, she, she didn't think a big deal. She just goes, hey, I'm not a team guy, you know?

• 46:16Speaker 01

  Right.

• 46:16Jocko Willink?

  You know, I think I said something about this dried chicken that she made. My wife has always had some issues getting moist chicken made, right? It always, I don't know, she's paranoid about food poisoning, but when she cooks it, man, she cooks it big time. I mean, she goes the distance. Right? She will cook that thing until, you know, you're, you gotta bring a gallon of water to the table just to get through the meal. So she's actually got a lot better in the recent years. So anyways, back in the day, I'd say, she'd say, oh, you know, I, I made you some chicken. And I'd say, oh, can, can you just go ahead and bring me three gallons of water to the table? And then it was one of those comments that I made one time where she says, you know, I'm not a team guy.

• 46:57Jocko Willink?

  And I kinda laughed and I said, oh my gosh, look what I'm doing. I'm treating her like a team guy and she's not a team guy and she doesn't need to be treated like that. So I just put myself in check and

• 47:10Jocko Willink?

  got myself under control and treated my wife like the good person that she is. So there's that, there's communication. It's, and this is, this is a weird thing, cause everyone's gonna say communication, but my point here is don't expect communication. Right? Don't expect communication. One of my buddies was married and we were going on to plan, this is a long time ago. He was married, he had three, three kids, been married to, you know, married his high school sweetheart, blah, blah, blah. And he lived in Coronado, where, where the SEAL teams are. He lived there. And his wife, he lived there with his wife. And one day he dropped off his car, he had to get his car worked on or something like that.

• 47:53Jocko Willink?

  And he said, this is, we'd been at the SEAL Teams for five years. He's married the whole time, been a SEAL Team One. And one time he says to his wife, hey, you know, he calls her and says, hey, can you come pick me up? Cause we gotta go somewhere, blah, blah, blah. And she goes, yeah. She says, where are you? He goes, I'm at the team. And she goes, where is it? And Coronado, by the way, is only like a mile long. And, and so it was a classic example of he never told his wife even where the buildings were or what he did or anything like that. And that's just the way it was. And a lot of successful SEAL marriages that I've seen, there's not a lot of, hey, this is what I did at work today. And hey, this guy's a jerk. And hey, we're trying to make this happen. And hey, I got in trouble for this. There's none of that. There's just like work and then there's what we have, right?

• 48:37Jocko Willink?

  And I think that you gotta separate those two. But what I'm saying is this idea of communication happening all the time, it's not going to happen all the time. It's not going to, and I don't even know if it's, I don't think it's beneficial. When I was overseas, I wouldn't call my, you could, you could call your wife, you know, basically every day if you wanted to. I didn't call my wife every single day. I don't want to call my wife every day. It makes time slow down. It doesn't speed it up. Just don't call. Call like once a week. That's what I did. Call my wife once a week. Hey, how you doing? I'm fine. How's everything at home? I would just ask her questions about home. Didn't, didn't tell her anything that was going on ever. And just said, oh yeah, how's this? Oh yeah. Did you get the, you know, how's the car? And did you get the water heater fixed? And how's the kids doing in school and blah, blah, blah, blah. Ask her questions.

• 49:19Jocko Willink?

  Cause otherwise you're going to start talking about your world and then that's going to make them worried and concerned and everything else. And you don't want that. So you don't need to talk to somebody every single day. That you do, that's neediness. That's emotional. That's what I was talking about earlier with, with being emotionally independent, right? You gotta be independent. You can't need that like security of, hey, call me and talk to me. No, actually I'm not going to call you. I'm not going to talk to you. You go do your thing. I'm doing my thing.

• 49:52Jocko Willink?

  You know, on top of that, I think it's cool if you want to set some goals, you know, together, make a little team, you know, you're trying to make some things happen, you're trying to make some financial goals, or some family goals, or some house goals, you know, we want to get new carpet, want to put some new wallpaper up, whatever, you know, want to add a, you know, just do stuff and make those goals, maybe we make some jujitsu goals together, that's always good. My wife was really good at jujitsu, she's kind of stopped training when she started having babies every 18 months and all that, but you know, we used to have a blast training jujitsu all the time. So, I obviously recommend the jujitsu to help all relationships.

• 50:32Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 50:33Jocko Willink?

  Uh, working out together is another good one, you know, even if you can't get the jujitsu together, you can, you can, you can just work out, you know, work out together, and that's cool, and then you gotta give each other some space, right? Gotta give each other some space. The guy, the guy, he's a team guy, he's a special operations guy, he's gonna hang with his friends sometimes, and that's the way it goes. There's nothing wrong with that. That's the way things work. And you know what? She's gonna go do the same thing. So, that's okay. Um, yeah, so I think those are the main things. You know, JP, when JP was on here, he, he made a good point of put, put each other first, right? Pretty simple point, that goes a long way. That goes a long way. Which is contrary to what I said, which is like, the team is gonna

• 51:17Jocko Willink?

  come first, but that's your job. And I think you can still put your team as the number one priority, and doing your job as your number one priority, because that's, that's the thing, I said this a million times, right?

• 51:30Jocko Willink?

  Hey, listen, darling, the reason I have to do my job well, is because this is what we do, we fight and guys are gonna be trying to kill us. So, the best thing I can do for our relationship is stay alive. So, that means, and, and not only that, but I got these guys that also need to stay alive for their wives. So, we're gonna work hard, we're gonna train hard, we're gonna play hard, we're gonna know each other better, we're gonna, we're gonna bond, and all those things are gonna happen, and that's how I can best support this family, is by kicking ass at my job. And if you're a smart wife, you'll go, that makes sense to me, and it'll be okay. So, in putting your job as the number one priority, you're actually supporting the family, and you're, you're putting your, your spouse first, because you're trying to take care of yourself, take

• 52:15Jocko Willink?

  care of your team, so that you can come home, when, when it's time to come home.

• 52:22Speaker 01

  Yeah JP made it, I mean the, the put each other first, that's kinda like a, like

• 52:28Speaker 01

  dated, it's like you gotta remember that, you know, cuz you know how like if you're on, you're on two different pages, you know?

• 52:33Jocko Willink?

  Oh yeah, you gotta put, you gotta, you gotta remind yourself daily?

• 52:36Speaker 01

  Yeah, but man, it helps, helps a lot.

• 52:40Jocko Willink?

  Have you, have you, have you been doing that lately?

• 52:43Speaker 01

  I liked how JP, I like how JP put it, you know, we just put each other first, it's real like dang, that kinda

• 52:51Speaker 01

  resonated. I don't like using that word, but it resonated, you know, where-

• 52:56Jocko Willink?

  Why don't you like using that word?

• 52:57Speaker 01

  I don't know, you know those words, you know certain words just sound dumb coming out of your mouth?

• 53:01Jocko Willink?

  Is that one of them?

• 53:02Speaker 01

  In my opinion, yes.

• 53:03Jocko Willink?

  It comes, sounds dumb out of anyone's mouth?

• 53:05Speaker 01

  No, out of my-

• 53:06Jocko Willink?

  I think it sounded pretty good, actually.

• 53:07Speaker 01

  Oh, thanks Paul.

• 53:10Jocko Willink?

  Alright.

• 53:11Speaker 01

  But yeah, that was a good one.

• 53:12Jocko Willink?

  Good luck, uh, by the way, good luck, uh, to these guys that are trying to get in the special operations community. Obviously, I loved it and it was awesome for me and I'll tell you, my wife, that was definitely hard, man. It was a hard, it's a hard path and when your husband's over on deployment and you're home and guys are coming home wounded, or guys are getting killed overseas, that, that's, that's gonna be, that's hard. And that's one of the things that I talk about, the strength of the spouses and the independence to be able to deal with those hardships when they come. That's real stuff and so to the, to the women out there that support these guys, God bless you.

• 53:56Speaker 01

  Yeah, that, that point you made where you, you

• 54:00Speaker 01

  I think it's probably just habitually a little bit when you treat your wife like a team guy, you know? Like how, cuz that's how you're used to like bonding with people you like, you know, so in a way, it's like, it's good. You know, I treat you like good, yeah, man, it's not a, it's not a one-way street, man, you can't, can't be doing that. I do, I had the same thing, cuz that's how me and my brother, we just, that's it, the whole thing is like, see you can make, make the funniest joke about the other guy, you know? And then, so Sarah was like our friend before we got together, so she kinda, and she would, she didn't like that even from the beginning. But once you're kinda like in the relationship, she kinda got a lot and she constantly, constantly like- I'm not your, you know, and of course.

• 54:37Jocko Willink?

  I'm not your brother.

• 54:38Speaker 01

  Yeah, I'm not your brother, I'm not your friend, like that kind, you know. But, but of course, if you're not looking at it as like a two way street. You're like, wait, you should be happy I'm treating you like this, you know?

• 54:49Jocko Willink?

  This is my way of showing affection.

• 54:50Speaker 01

  Exactly right. You should be happy, right? No, no, no, that's a different person you're talking about, you know? Anyway, next question.

• 55:02Speaker 01

  BJJ question one.

• 55:06Speaker 01

  BJJ Q one?

• 55:07Jocko Willink?

  It does mean question one, yes.

• 55:09Speaker 01

  There you go. What's the best ratio of drilling to sparring? And question two is, what do you do? If you roll with someone new to jujitsu and they're over aggressive, like the beast took over? And they want to hurt people? I don't think they really do, but the adrenaline rush takes experience to manage. What's a good, what's a good approach on? You know, on the mat to let them know that they're being reckless and wasting energy without sounding like a douche?

• 55:38Jocko Willink?

  Alright, so question one, the ratio of drilling to sparring. I'm probably not the best person to ask this question because I like to roll.

• 55:47Speaker 01

  Nobody's the best person to ask that question.

• 55:49Jocko Willink?

  Maybe, but I like to roll and I should probably drill more, but I like to roll. The rolling is the funnest thing. We were training yesterday. And we got done training yesterday and we were sitting there, we were watching some other people train and stuff. And I was like, man, I just love jujitsu, it's so fun. Will we do an hour of rounds? And so I just got done and I said, man, jujitsu is so fun. It's so fun. And so I like to roll and drilling is not as fun, right? When I said, yeah, we did rounds, that means we were just rolling. For those of you that don't train. Well, first of all, go train, go find a place to train. And by the way, all these people that ask me questions about if they should train or not? Yes, you should train. You've got a million different reasons why you shouldn't train. Like what was the one, you just responded to somebody on social media that said?

• 56:31Jocko Willink?

  You know, hey, what if the only option I have is a place where it's just white belts?

• 56:35Speaker 01

  Even the instructor.

• 56:35Jocko Willink?

  Even the instructor's a white belt. Is it worth it? Yes! It's worth it. Go on YouTube. You can learn a billion different moves on YouTube. And go start rolling with these other white belts and you guys are going to get better. And you know, it doesn't matter what the belts are. So, you know, whether you're that person or whether you're the person that says, hey, I can only make it once a week because I travel. Go once a week then.

• 56:53Speaker 01

  There you go.

• 56:54Jocko Willink?

  If you're the person that says, hey, man, I got, you know, this knee injury and I can only. Uh, roll like one day before it gets too sore. Okay, roll one day. And you know what? If you, it doesn't mean you have to, every time you get on the mat, you don't have to go psycho.

• 57:08Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 57:09Jocko Willink?

  Right? Which is what, I guess we'll get to that question. But i- if you can't roll super hard, then just roll a little lighter and roll what you can. And we get guys, some of our really dedicated jiu-jitsu guys, they get hurt, they still come and train. They can't even roll, but they'll come in, hey, man, just let me just work my, whatever I can do. Let me work my arm lock, you know, that's the one motion I can do, so I'm gonna work that. And that's cool.

• 57:34Jocko Willink?

  So I think you should drill more. I think I should drill more, but I just like to roll so much. And I'll tell you, I think this does change a little as you get better because, I mean, obviously a black belt doesn't need to drill as much as a white belt does, because a white belt has a lot more moves to learn. But everybody should drill more. And I think if I was to say something like, probably a third of the time you should be drilling, maybe.

• 58:03Jocko Willink?

  I'll tell you something else. You learn a new move, drill it until you're good at it, then you won't need to drill it anymore. And the other thing about drilling is, and drilling is awesome, drilling also, I could drill a move 15,000 times, drill only, and when I go to roll with somebody, I won't be able to do it. It doesn't mean you'll be able to do it. In fact, I still gotta do it 100 more times, live against another real active human before I can pull the move off. That's the way it works. Occasionally, there's a few moves that either they are that simple, or you have a natural ability to do them. That does happen sometimes where, like occasionally, I'll get, I, there's some moves that just make sense to me, right? And I've always, as soon as I learn them, I can do them. That's rare. I mean, it's, it's, that happens 10% of the time.

• 58:46Jocko Willink?

  Most of the time, I learn something and I try it and I get stuffed and then I gotta try it again. I gotta make my own little adjustments to it and then I gotta do it again. Then that's the way jiu-jitsu works. So drill a bunch. All right. Quick question two. Someone that is going level seven psychopath on the mats.

• 59:03Speaker 01

  Is seven the highest level?

• 59:04Jocko Willink?

  Hmm.

• 59:05Speaker 01

  Ten, right?

• 59:06Jocko Willink?

  I guess.

• 59:07Speaker 01

  But seven is still.

• 59:08Jocko Willink?

  We're not a hundred percent sure what highest level is. I don't think it's been seen yet.

• 59:12Speaker 01

  It's not level one.

• 59:13Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, it's definitely not level one. This guy is above normal psycho level. I'll say this, well above normal psycho level. So first of all, if you're a higher belt, you just shut them down, right? You just shut them down, smother them. I like, if I get someone that's going really super crazy, I will, I will immobilize them to where they cannot move and I will let the rage drain out of them. I'll just let it drain out of them and I'll, you know, just let the rage drain out and then I'll submit them and then I'll submit them again and I'll just do that over and over again. And then I'll probably just, you know, have a little chat with them like, hey, man, you just relax a little bit because all that,

• 59:54Jocko Willink?

  all that going crazy is not helping you get better at what we're trying to do here. Now, when you tell somebody to relax, you tell them, don't use strength, of course, those are the things that no one can actually apply, right? Very seldom can someone say, you, I guess, hey, man, just relax and they go, oh, okay, cool. And you have a nice roll of them. No, it doesn't happen. They go even harder. So that's what you're gonna do. You eventually just keep wearing them down and say, hey, man, you know, I'm telling you, you gotta relax. You're not gonna see, you're not gonna see as much if you're so going psycho. Now, so that's if you're a higher belt. That's what I do. Control them, put them, you know,

• 1:00:35Jocko Willink?

  force them to accept their fate and that will help them move down the path towards relaxation. Now, if you're a lower belt,

• 1:00:45Jocko Willink?

  you can either. Fight to the death, which is fine and kind of join in their mayhem. And if you want to do that, that's okay. Or you can work your technique, right? And get dominated. So, so guy comes in and you know, you two are about the same level, but he's a lot stronger than you and he's going crazy and you and you just go, okay, you know what? I'm just gonna work my technique the best I can and I'm not going to escalate this. And you know what? You're gonna get tapped out because you guys are at the same level, but he's using all the strength and you're not. Now you're gonna get better at jiu-jitsu, but you're not gonna notice that for a while.

• 1:01:12Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, that's true.

• 1:01:13Jocko Willink?

  So what happens? You get caught up in their ego trip and you start going just as hard as they're going. And that's the way it works. Now, if you can just say, you know what? I'm just gonna keep relaxing with this guy and eventually I'm gonna learn more than him. And that will happen. You will learn more than the person that's going psycho. And then you can put them to tap.

• 1:01:32Jocko Willink?

  Uh, so,

• 1:01:35Jocko Willink?

  you know, also, as I was, uh,

• 1:01:39Jocko Willink?

  Tim Ferriss sent some email out the other day and it had a quote on there from

• 1:01:48Jocko Willink?

  Leo Tolstoy. And it said, "Everyone thinks of changing the world, but no one thinks of changing himself." Right? And, and I was like, hmm, that's interesting. And I immediately thought of jiu-jitsu because I try and explain this concept to people in jiu-jitsu. And that is, when you're going especially against someone that's bigger than you or stronger than you, or someone that's going crazy and they're using all of their muscles, the way this translates in jiu-jitsu is in jiu-jitsu, everyone thinks of moving the other person.

• 1:02:22Jocko Willink?

  But what you need to focus on is moving yourself. And there's some really clear examples of this. And but this is just translates into life. It translates into life, you know, it's this is what flanking is, right? If I come up against you and you got a big ego and you're not budging on anything, I'm not going to continue attack that way. I'm not going to try and move you. I'm gonna move myself into a better position. So I thought that was a good thing to think about you when you're rolling with somebody that's big and going crazy.

• 1:02:47Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's a good point. That's a good thing to think about all day, every day about everything. Especially, you know, people who are

• 1:02:54Jocko Willink?

  Agree.

• 1:02:55Speaker 01

  who are like, hey, oh, man, I need a job. And that's, you know, that's nothing, this is nothing new where it's, dang, I need a job, you know? Dang, there's no jobs out here or whatever. And that's kind of an example of that, you know, where Don't look at it like a job needs to be presented to you, you know? You have to kinda-

• 1:03:13Jocko Willink?

  You need to maneuver.

• 1:03:14Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, change yourself, so, you know, you can do the work that people need, you know?

• 1:03:22Jocko Willink?

  Concur. Don't move the world, move yourself. Don't try and move your opponent, move yourself.

• 1:03:28Speaker 01

  Yeah. The guy, um, who were drilling and sparring-

• 1:03:31Jocko Willink?

  You were kinda trying to move me a lot yesterday, FYI.

• 1:03:35Speaker 01

  Oh, I moved you a lot?

• 1:03:36Jocko Willink?

  You were trying to move me a lot.

• 1:03:38Speaker 01

  Whatever.

• 1:03:38Jocko Willink?

  You were coming with a really aggressive, really aggressive methodology, I'll say.

• 1:03:43Speaker 01

  Yeah. Default.

• 1:03:46Jocko Willink?

  The default aggressive.

• 1:03:48Speaker 01

  The drilling, um, in my experience, if you ask different people-

• 1:03:53Jocko Willink?

  I thought you were getting frustrated.

• 1:03:55Speaker 01

  I was.

• 1:03:56Jocko Willink?

  And I saw, I was like, okay, he's getting frustrated. And I thought to myself, he's getting frustrated at me.

• 1:04:02Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:04:03Jocko Willink?

  And the reason I was like, I, I, I almost fell into your game psychologically because as we're rolling and you're getting more and more frustrated, so you're being more aggressive. And part of your, it seemed to me, part of your frustration and your aggression was that I was not fully disengaging, but I was not getting into this game that you were in. And as I saw that you were gonna keep coming with this, and I, and I said, you know, I don't want him to get frustrated, you know, at me. So maybe I'll play this a little bit. And then I said, oh, wait, I'm, I'm truly actually doing jiu-jitsu.

• 1:04:39Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:04:40Jocko Willink?

  I'm doing jiu-jitsu. I'm just straight doing jiu-jitsu. I'm not, I'm totally not getting into this, uh, head-banging competition. No, I'm gonna be over here.

• 1:04:47Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:04:48Jocko Willink?

  I'm gonna be over here. So I thought that was-

• 1:04:50Speaker 01

  Isn't that kinda whack? It's actually really good how that worked, because if you remember,

• 1:04:57Speaker 01

  I kinda started to lose it mentally, not like temper-wise or nothing, but- Like basically, uh, there is like a, there's like a little small short list. I don't know if you know this. I've mentioned this, but not in this depth. There's a small list of things that I'm working on with you. It's like a small thing like where if I can remember to do this, you know, cause you're the kind where like you, to defend a certain thing, you gotta focus really hard in defending it. But the, the drawback to that is when you start like really focusing on defending it, all it takes is one little, yeah. So there's like a few things that it's like, dang, I gotta, it's like a balancing act, you know? I don't wanna forget here. I don't wanna forget it, you know? So it's like that.

• 1:05:37Speaker 01

  And a lot of times, and it's, it's by my own evaluation. It's not based on like X, it's in my own head. Like, okay, like I feel good about this is coming along, you know, kinda thing. And whether you notice this or not, towards, towards the end, like it might like, it was just done, gone. The whole, my whole thing, it was just gone. Yeah. It was all just blind rage.

• 1:06:01Jocko Willink?

  And that's what I was truly thinking. I was thinking, I was thinking, he's getting mad at me. But I'm really doing actual like, the purest form of jujitsu, which is, hey, you keep coming with all that and I'm just gonna keep adjusting and making other things happen that you don't like.

• 1:06:17Speaker 01

  It's like, it's like this cycle, you know?

• 1:06:20Jocko Willink?

  Oh, that was fun.

• 1:06:21Speaker 01

  But yeah, it was good though, overall thinking that. The, the drilling, um,

• 1:06:28Speaker 01

  it, different people have different philosophies on, on drilling and cause I mean, like surfing, you know, like, okay, when you drill and move, it's like, hey, okay, do the arm bar, you know, do the whole transition to the arm bar and then, you know, just drill that. When you first learn the arm bar, it's gonna have more value because you have to just know the fundamental movements of the arm bar. And just like how you said, like it's gonna be different when you

• 1:06:50Jocko Willink?

  Do it live.

• 1:06:50Speaker 01

  Do it live. Yeah. So once you kinda get the fundamental movement of the arm bar, your legs gotta be here, they gotta do this certain thing, your arms position, his, all this, all that stuff. Once you kinda get that down, it's like then you step into the value being now you gotta know when to do it, how to do it, you know?

• 1:07:08Jocko Willink?

  I, I don't know if I've ever said this, uh, before on the podcast. I've said it when I've taught, when I teach jujitsu, this is something I said. Okay, there's, let's say 10 things that you have to do right to make a move work. Okay? 10, you gotta put your arms here, you gotta put your hips here, you gotta put your grip here, whatever those 10 things are that you gotta do. I can teach you about four of them. Okay? Maybe I can teach you five. Maybe Jeff Glover or Dean or a good instructor can teach you six or seven, maybe even eight of those components. There's two more components, you're only gonna figure out on your own. You're only gonna figure out where to distribute your weight by yourself.

• 1:07:50Jocko Willink?

  You're only gonna distribute how to time what the execution of the move is by yourself. You're only gonna figure out how to feel what the other person and when they're vulnerable to the move. You're only gonna get those by doing it live. Only gonna be doing it, getting it by doing it live. So, those are the components. And you know, there's more than 10, actually. There's probably like 80. Yeah, that's what I was gonna say. Little components that you have to do. And, and what's cool is when you really focus on a particular move, you have, you have all these components just lock solid. And when someone's really good at a certain move, they just, like, there's, there's so, there's, they've been in that situation so many times. They've been in that situation so many times that it doesn't matter. They, you're doing something they already thought of that.

• 1:08:35Jocko Willink?

  They've, they've been in that position. Like, there's a position in jiu-jitsu, for those of you that don't know, there's a position in jiu-jitsu called 50-50, which we originally called kokureko, which Dean kind of, I would say, started. Because he did it in ADCC in 2003. And it was a position that we were doing all the time at that time, but no one else was doing it. And now a bunch of people do it. Ryan Hall's made it famous and he's the one, I think he coined, I don't know who coined the phrase 50-50, but he's got an academy called 50-50. Yeah, been there, it's good. Nice. So, so, but it's a position where you're fairly neutral. Your leg positions are neutral, so you're, you have the same leg position. And so it's who knows the position better will win. And so this position that they call 50-50 now, which we used to call kokureko,

• 1:09:21Jocko Willink?

  it's actually, Dean calls it 90-10. Meaning, hey, I, yeah, I have a 90% chance or you have a 10% chance, because I've spent months sitting in this position. So...

• 1:09:35Jocko Willink?

  When you get someone that really knows a position well, that puts you at a massive disadvantage if you're going against them.

• 1:09:43Speaker 01

  Yeah, cuz you guys both know the drilling part of it, you know, but he knows the one million different other elements. Like surfing, you know, like, you know, when you first take surfing, they're like, hey, you know, let's do it on the sand. When there's, it's just, that's basically drilling.

• 1:09:59Jocko Willink?

  Oh, yeah, yeah, you're drilling, standing up and paddling.

• 1:10:01Speaker 01

  Then you gotta go out to the actual waves and man, the waves, that's, you know, it's different.

• 1:10:06Jocko Willink?

  It's a little different. And again, these principles from Jiu-Jitsu, they apply to everything that you're doing. And when you're going through a leadership situation, if you've seen it before, if you've seen this kind of person's attitude, like I just told that story about, hey, you'd see a guy that's learned something, the first way he learned it in the SEAL Teams is the way he believes it should always be. Once I had experienced that, it was much easier for me to handle.

• 1:10:28Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:10:28Jocko Willink?

  You know, so anytime you can open up your mind and pay attention to what's going on around you, it's gonna make you better at handling all these different situations that you come across in any environment, absolutely leadership environment. You get the person with the giant ego, you get the person that's, that wants to take over, you get the person that's scared to step up. You get all those things. You get someone that's being disrespectful. How are you gonna, oh, I've had that before, let's just go, let me approach it, you know what I mean? So the more you get to handle these different positions, or the more you can research them and drill them, cuz the drilling does pay off. You know, that's what, all this gathering of trying to gather knowledge from various books, and when you see something in a military situation, like I see all these things in a military situation, I go, oh, okay.

• 1:11:09Jocko Willink?

  Oh, I see what they did here. Oh, I see what Hackworth did here. I see what Patton did here. Now, I'm no Patton, I'm no Hackworth, but at least I have a heads up. At least I've seen this scenario before. I've, I've gone through a mental drill of how it got handled. Now, there's components that I need to figure out on my own.

• 1:11:26Jocko Willink?

  But I've got the bulk of the move there. I recognize what's happening. It puts me in a little better situation than having no idea what's happening and just getting flanked.

• 1:11:38Speaker 01

  Potentially. Yeah, and the guy getting nuts, rolling, the spaz, is the name for that guy, by the way. It's a spaz.

• 1:11:46Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, white belt warrior.

• 1:11:48Speaker 01

  Yeah, sure, there's that. I think that's overall just kind of part of the game. There's so many different ways to like deal, I mean, as a higher belt, I mean, you, you kinda, I mean, I don't think you have the curse of knowledge, but you're, you've been a high belt for a long time, so. My

• 1:12:03Jocko Willink?

  Are you saying me personally as an individual?

• 1:12:05Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah. So when you get a guy who's like, when you first start, like my memories of first starting and going with big, big, strong guys who are getting nuts, it's, it is hard to deal with, man, straight up like,

• 1:12:16Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 1:12:17Speaker 01

  So, and if you're smaller, it's even, you know, it's even harder.

• 1:12:20Jocko Willink?

  And you could go, oh man, jujitsu doesn't work, right? If you don't, if you're a blue belt and you get a 200, if you're 160 pound blue belt, and a 300 or a 280 pound college wrestler comes in,

• 1:12:32Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:12:33Jocko Willink?

  And it's his first day, you're not gonna be able to, there's a very good chance, you might be able to catch him. You might be able to catch him.

• 1:12:39Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:12:40Jocko Willink?

  But it's no guarantee.

• 1:12:42Speaker 01

  No, it's unlikely to, I mean.

• 1:12:44Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, it's hardcore.

• 1:12:46Speaker 01

  Yeah. Yeah. And that's part, but that.

• 1:12:50Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:12:50Jocko Willink?

  Well, maybe a blue belt may be a little challenging. Purple belt, you now, purple belt.

• 1:12:54Speaker 01

  Yeah, you start to see the holes.

• 1:12:56Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 1:12:57Speaker 01

  Yeah, but those, and yeah, if you're, and I'm just completely speaking just from experience and thinking of it right now, but there are little things that you'll see come forward, like little tactics you can use to someone who's just bigger, stronger and spazzing. Little tactics you, and not to say that you'll like, you know, end up tapping them out or whatever, but certain things that will be successful in your situation. So all you do is you, you kind of remember those things, kind of work on that and wait till you see the next little thing. Okay. Then after a while, as your game develops, it'll be like, oh shoot, you have this handful of things that works on these types of guys, you know?

• 1:13:34Jocko Willink?

  Glover, he, he, he, he like does best against, he goes, yeah, guys that are big and strong are, you know, sort of his, his game matches really well against them, against Jeff.

• 1:13:45Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:13:46Jocko Willink?

  Cause he's just so fluid.

• 1:13:47Speaker 01

  Yeah. Yeah.

• 1:13:50Jocko Willink?

  Alright.

• 1:13:51Speaker 01

  Jocko, like yourself, I tend to have low opinions slash expectations of people. My question is, how do you act friendly with someone when you know they're trying to play passive aggressive power games with you?

• 1:14:06Speaker 01

  Say you know a person and you know he's a snake, but social and work situations demands and expects that you act like their friend. How do you reconcile that within your mind? Is that, or is that not being fake? I know you're gonna say play the game, but

• 1:14:24Speaker 01

  but do I really have to play these snake games just to get ahead in the world?

• 1:14:28Jocko Willink?

  Alright, so first of all, from the first part of that, this, this blanket statement that I have a low opinion of people is actually factually not true. I, I don't come out of the gate with a low opinion of people. That's actually not true. I have high hopes for people that they're gonna do well, but I don't have expectations that they're gonna perform. There's a difference there, right? I don't view people in a low, my opinion of people is not low out of the gate, but I don't layer heavy expectations on them because that's unfair.

• 1:15:03Jocko Willink?

  So that's number one. Um, I set the bar low so people can pleasantly surprise me, but believe me, I don't have a low expectation or a low opinion of people. Now, the question, yes. You absolutely called it and what I was going to say, play the game. Right? Yeah, yes, that's what you're gonna do. Now, let me, let me put it this way.

• 1:15:27Jocko Willink?

  You got snakes. Okay, if you don't learn to play with the snakes,

• 1:15:34Jocko Willink?

  you're never gonna get the anti-venom from their fangs. You're never gonna get them figured out. And if you don't figure out how to get the anti-venom, the snakes are always gonna own you. So you gotta learn how to deal with snakes. I had a kid, when I was a teen too, kid from Arkansas or something, and we were out in the hills somewhere and there was a rattlesnake. And he grabbed that thing like he was picking up a, like he was picking up a, a, a, a pair of socks. It was like no factor. Boom, walked over, picked up the snake, whacked it against the tree. I said, okay, this dude knows how to deal with snakes. And it's the same thing here. People are snakes. Does that mean you just avoid them and you're not gonna play the game? And the worst thing, you know what you don't do with a snake? Is you don't walk over and get all like intimidate them and get in their face and so it bites you.

• 1:16:18Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 1:16:18Jocko Willink?

  And, and poisons you, right? So yes, you gotta play the game. People like this exist. Right? And, and so let's say, let's take a, a

• 1:16:33Jocko Willink?

  Let's say you take the moral high ground and you refuse to work with and accept and be humane with these snakes. Okay, if that's what you do, now, guess what? Now the snakes don't like you. Now they see you as a threat and now they attack.

• 1:16:51Jocko Willink?

  And like I said, this is when they bite and they poison and they kill you and what good are you now? You're dead.

• 1:16:58Jocko Willink?

  So you can't help anybody when you're dead. You can't achieve your goals, you can't help the team, you can't accomplish the mission. Because you are on the moral high ground. Now, let's say that you learn to play the game. You learn how to handle those snakes like that young boy from Arkansas. You learn their moves, you get the antidote, you get the anti-venom for their poison.

• 1:17:25Jocko Willink?

  And you actually, in this process, you become immune to their attacks.

• 1:17:30Jocko Willink?

  And you reach a point where they actually don't attack you. Because they're familiar with you.

• 1:17:38Jocko Willink?

  And they trust you. And when that happens, then you can overcome their weapons, you can rise up, you can get control of them, and you can utilize them for your own purpose, right? Now, if that purpose was something that was self-centered, or something that was for your own good and not for them or not for the team, then it'd be a form of manipulation and it'd be pretty negative. But if all you're doing is trying to get these snakes on board with the program to help the whole team win, we got no issue with that. We got no moral issue with that. I got no moral issue with me treating people nicely to try and get them on board with the program so that they can help our team win. I got no issue with that, moral or otherwise. So,

• 1:18:24Jocko Willink?

  that's the answer, I think. You know, when the time is right, you be nice to those snakes when the time is right. You put that little stick with the noose around the end of it, you put it around their head and you collect their venom. And you can use snakes to do things like kill rats, right? Snakes can be used for some kind of good at some point.

• 1:18:46Jocko Willink?

  Now, I know it's hard, right? I know it's hard and...

• 1:18:53Jocko Willink?

  Is it being fake? Maybe it is. May- maybe that is being fake.

• 1:19:01Jocko Willink?

  But you're doing it for the good of the team. So again, it's not for personal game. That's a huge difference. And also, if you think about this idea of being fake.

• 1:19:11Jocko Willink?

  If you would be nice to people to help the team win, then isn't that actually you? Right? So how can you be fake by being you? Right? If my, if what I do is, hey, I, I help people and I get in their head and I'll, I'll be nice to them so we can win. If I do that, that's me. That's not being fake. That's actually what I do. That's not being fake. So.

• 1:19:35Jocko Willink?

  I think regardless, in the end, it is something you have to do. You do have to play the game.

• 1:19:42Jocko Willink?

  And that is how you're going to help your team win. And it's also if you want to get those snakes. To come over to the light and get away from the darkness. You're not going to do it by trying to kill them. All you're going to do is offend them and they're going to attack you. Like I said, if you show them a good example, if you're productive and when you get all that stuff done and you accomplish your mission and what you do is you say, hey, it wasn't me to accomplish the mission. It was the snakes. They did it. You know what? Those snakes start to stand upright. They start to de- defang themselves and they start to realize that maybe they can do some good out there too.

• 1:20:20Speaker 01

  I like the snake analogy.

• 1:20:21Jocko Willink?

  Hey, he started it.

• 1:20:27Speaker 01

  That, um.

• 1:20:29Jocko Willink?

  Oh, commentary.

• 1:20:30Speaker 01

  Like, wha- no, no, no, no, what you're saying, you know how you slowly build that relationship, whatever. That part's hard because it takes like time.

• 1:20:39Jocko Willink?

  It takes time, but the more harder than time is it takes the stomach.

• 1:20:42Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, exactly.

• 1:20:43Jocko Willink?

  You got, you got the guy that you know is a slimy guy that's just looking out for himself and you gotta go, hey, man, what's going on? Hey, Bill, what's happening? Good to see you. Hey, yeah, no, good, yeah, didn't, I had a great weekend. Thank you. Yeah. How was your weekend?

• 1:20:57Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:20:57Jocko Willink?

  You know, so you're in that mode and you gotta gut through that. Because you know you're a good person, right? Right? Right?

• 1:21:05Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:21:06Jocko Willink?

  I think.

• 1:21:07Speaker 01

  Yeah, especially passive aggressive. Like, that can be tough, because a lot of times, it's way easier if I'm like, if I, if I launch a confrontation against you. It's way easier mentally to be like, okay, we're in a little battle right now. It's easy. But if I just do like one little dig and then kind of walk away or something like that, it's like, oh, man, that can be way more like trying on your mind, on your patience, you know? And then when you, when you battle through that, right? Or the idea of, I gotta battle through this. Okay, this is gonna be hard. Just, you know, mentally, whatever. I gotta battle through that. Oh, but guess what? You gotta do that for a long time. That one time that, that you think that was hard? All right, well, you gotta keep on doing that.

• 1:21:44Jocko Willink?

  It's a continual seething evolution that happens over and over again. It does make it challenging.

• 1:21:49Speaker 01

  But I think if you just know this, if you know, if you can see the light at the end of the tunnel.

• 1:21:54Jocko Willink?

  And I hate to use this word, because it seems to be a trendy word right now. You gotta gamify it a little bit. You know, when somebody does something passive aggressive to me, I'm like, oh, score. I'm gonna have fun with this. Hey, you're right, that was a really good job that your team did over there. You know, when they say, the little dig at me? Yeah, I think you guys did fantastic. I didn't foresee that at all.

• 1:22:12Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:22:13Jocko Willink?

  You're, you're crushing it. Just, I say, oh, oh, that hurt, but guess what? I'm gonna win in the long run. I just won a little battle against you.

• 1:22:20Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:22:20Jocko Willink?

  And you go, don't let these little things bo- don't let the little things bother you. Man, think about the big stuff. You got big stuff to worry about out there. You can't let the little things bother you. And are you on the right path? If you're trying to do the right thing for the right reasons, man, it's all good. Doesn't matter what else is going on. I'm good with it.

• 1:22:37Speaker 01

  And that's it. And that's what I mean by the, by kind of the light at the end of the tunnel, like, you, you know, like, you know, that's where I'm going. This is just part of the thing. You know, I see the whole path kind of thing. And it just makes it easier when you kind of know that. But when you're at that time, passive aggressive is the worst, man. The kind where.

• 1:22:54Jocko Willink?

  I see, see, you talk about passive aggressive being the worst. I don't, this is not like this thing that bothers me.

• 1:23:00Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:23:01Jocko Willink?

  I don't know, it doesn't, it's never been a big issue for me. When somebody's passive aggressive with me, I just, okay, cool. I see the game we're in. I'm gonna play it. I'll play that game. I'm good with it.

• 1:23:10Speaker 01

  Man, see, if you can just look at it like that, and look at it like that, yeah, man, it, it'd make it. It would almost make it the opposite situation like it would almost be pleasurable.

• 1:23:18Jocko Willink?

  It does cuz I don't I've never had a big issue with some guy that's being I've never had that.

• 1:23:24Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:23:24Jocko Willink?

  Like, oh, oh, I see what's a little shot right there. You know, come throw some credit at him. Go flank him.

• 1:23:29Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:23:29Jocko Willink?

  They're gonna be good. Not worried about that person. That person's not really secure in the first place.

• 1:23:34Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:23:34Jocko Willink?

  And they're sort of one of these slimy snakes, right, that are trying to make things happen. That's okay. I'll just just help them. Help them out. You know what? You're trying to be passive aggressive. I'll bring you out in the open. Bring you out in the clear. Not enough, not in an offensive way.

• 1:23:45Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:23:46Jocko Willink?

  But you know what? I think you're right about that.

• 1:23:48Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:23:48Jocko Willink?

  I think you could do a better job here. Come on and help my team or whatever.

• 1:23:52Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:23:53Jocko Willink?

  Because when they're doing that, what are they attacking?

• 1:23:56Speaker 01

  Your ego.

• 1:23:56Jocko Willink?

  You're they're attacking your ego. So if you just get over that thing and just say, you know what? No big deal.

• 1:24:03Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:24:03Jocko Willink?

  That's good. Oh, I see what's going on here. Let's bring it out in the open.

• 1:24:06Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:24:06Jocko Willink?

  Bring it out in the open. Expose the ambush and just say, hey, buddy. Oh, yeah, we're good. Let's start. Let's let's move forward together as a team. How how's that sound? I'm I'm down.

• 1:24:19Jocko Willink?

  Hard one to contend with for Echo Charles.

• 1:24:21Speaker 01

  Oh, you know what? And I'm thinking about this. I'm like, yeah, that sounds so easy. But you know what I realized? It's one like I care about the person and they be passive aggressive like or if I care about like their opinion or something like this.

• 1:24:31Jocko Willink?

  Did I say that you had to offend them?

• 1:24:33Speaker 01

  No, no, no, no, no. It's not not in that way. Not in the way where like I might offend them, but

• 1:24:39Speaker 01

  like if like you care about what they think, you know?

• 1:24:42Jocko Willink?

  Okay.

• 1:24:42Speaker 01

  And they're like.

• 1:24:43Jocko Willink?

  What's wrong with that?

• 1:24:44Speaker 01

  I guess nothing, but I guess maybe that's where my sensitivity to it is. I mean, coworkers. Maybe in a I haven't had coworkers in a long time. Well, I guess you're a coworker, but you're not passive aggressive, but nonetheless, I can see you're more aggressive, not.

• 1:25:01Speaker 01

  Maybe it would be in a situat- like maybe a coworker situation would be the kind of situation that I'm like thinking about where people will be more sensitive than it's just some person.

• 1:25:10Jocko Willink?

  You know what? Actually, the other day you and I had a conversation. You might have been being passive aggressive.

• 1:25:14Speaker 01

  No.

• 1:25:15Jocko Willink?

  Maybe. You we were we were trying to do something and you said, hey, you know, I'm just not sure if this is like really something we should do. And I was like, cool, don't do it.

• 1:25:24Speaker 01

  No, okay, that wasn't passive aggressive. That was like, um, it was different. It was like trading lightly. You know, you know, like it wasn't necessarily straight dope.

• 1:25:34Jocko Willink?

  You gave me a little bit of a indication.

• 1:25:36Speaker 01

  Yeah, like understating.

• 1:25:38Jocko Willink?

  I said, oh, there's something going on, some kind of ambush here. I said, okay, come on out. We're good. Let's bring it out in the open because I'm good. It's not that, it's like, you know, I respect your opinion. Let's go with it. No factor. Make that happen.

• 1:25:48Speaker 01

  That was good.

• 1:25:49Jocko Willink?

  That's how I roll.

• 1:25:53Speaker 01

  Yeah, passive aggressive is the kind where, um, like, you know, if I'm mad at you for something and then I'm like, nope, all good. But meanwhile, my body language is saying, you know, it's like that kind of stuff.

• 1:26:05Jocko Willink?

  Is that even passive aggressive?

• 1:26:06Speaker 01

  That is what passive aggressive is. It's like, it's like, like, oh, it's all good, but then like little digs or indicating other stuff. It's like this weird thing. It's, yeah, it's super whack.

• 1:26:18Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. Like I said, when I, when someone's being that with me, I'm going to bring them all the way out. I'm going to bring them from passive to just straight aggressive so that we can get through it because I'm not going to get, that's the good thing. If we're on a team, why are we going against each other? What's probably at the root there is just ego situation.

• 1:26:35Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:26:36Jocko Willink?

  You can put that to rest. You're good. Hard though, hard to put that ego in check for all of us.

• 1:26:42Speaker 01

  Yeah. Yeah, man. I mean, coworkers are your peers. So, you know, it's natural to kind of care what they think, even if you don't like them. You know, it's just, I think it's just natural.

• 1:26:53Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, of course. People want to do a good job and, and want other people to think that they're doing a good job.

• 1:27:00Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:27:00Jocko Willink?

  There's nothing wrong with that. So when they start throwing jabs, it's okay. You know what? Why are they throwing a jab? Maybe you're not doing as good of a job as you thought you were. And now it's taking a little shot to your ego. So let's address it. Let's figure out what the issue is.

• 1:27:11Speaker 01

  Yep. Yeah.

• 1:27:13Jocko Willink?

  This is like jujitsu. I've done this move. I've seen this move before.

• 1:27:20Jocko Willink?

  Rock and roll.

• 1:27:23Speaker 01

  Next question. What is the best case you've ever heard against extreme ownership? And what's your response? Or alternatively, are there situations where extreme ownership is the wrong answer?

• 1:27:41Speaker 01

  If you've never heard an argument against, let me propose two. Okay, one, extreme ownership focuses too much on achieving victory through focus on strategy and tactics.

• 1:27:52Jocko Willink?

  Let me, before you even go there, I gotta ask that question at the muster. Is there such a thing as too much extreme ownership?

• 1:28:01Jocko Willink?

  And I said, well, yes, there is actually such a thing as too much extreme ownership. For instance, and I actually broke it down to the fact that there's two types of extreme ownership that you're gonna have, internal and external. Internal is I own everything and I know that, but I'm not sitting here telling everyone, right? External is, hey, guys, I'm gonna own this. This is me. This is mine. So you can easily see from there where you can overplay your hand of external extreme ownership. For instance, Echo, you're in charge of this project that we're doing.

• 1:28:43Jocko Willink?

  I want you to do it like this because I own it. Like, that's obviously wrong, right? So if I'm trying to get people to do things, if I'm trying to use decentralized command and all I'm telling everyone is like, this is my project. I own it. Echo, you do this. This is your part of the project, but the project is mine, right? Does that make, does that motivate you in any way? Okay, so we're not gonna do that. That would be too much extreme ownership. It would be too much outward extreme ownership. Now, if, so what I want to do is I want to say, Echo, this is your project. I'm gonna step back, let you run this thing. I think you've got a really good idea and vision on how this is gonna work. And I think you could actually do a better job than I can do. So here's, here's the goal that we're trying to accomplish.

• 1:29:24Jocko Willink?

  And if you just, you know, come up with a plan and tell me how you're gonna execute it, I'm standing by, right? Now you're like, oh, Jocko trusts me to do this. That's pretty cool, right? Yeah, that's awesome. So now we have a good thing going. So that's, that's where I'm going to keep my ownership internal. I'm not going to project it on you to keep it internal. Now where this flips is the project fails. And clearly, the example now becomes crystal clear. Because now, if I use external ownership and I'm saying, I should use external ownership. And when the boss says, hey Jocko, your team failed on this mission. I'll say, you know what, we did, I made some mistakes here. Here's what I did wrong. Here's we made the wrong investments. I didn't allocate resources well here. My fault, we're going to get it fixed next time around, won't happen.

• 1:30:10Jocko Willink?

  Okay, that's cool. That's, I'm now correctly using excessive extreme ownership to take ownership of the project that you actually screwed up.

• 1:30:19Jocko Willink?

  Now, obviously, the wrong thing would be, hey Jocko, this project failed. And I say, oh, that's because Echo dropped the ball on this. He didn't get this done in time and Echo's got issues over here. Now that's not good. I want to take, I don't want to use that. I'm keeping my ownership internal. I'm being lame, basically. So, yes, the, the, the argument against extreme ownership is, yes, if you take too much ownership of a project and you're not letting your, you're not using enough decentralized command. That's why there's a dichotomy between those two. There's a dichotomy between extreme ownership and decentralized command. And if I use too much extreme ownership when I'm trying to execute decentralized command, it's not going to work right.

• 1:30:58Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:30:58Jocko Willink?

  Now, once a mistake happens or there's a failure, that's when you step in and take ownership. And by the way, you should have taken ownership all along to make sure that the project didn't fail. But, these things happen. You don't win every single time. Don't care who you are. Now, he gave a couple of examples. I'll, I'll let you proceed with the question, good sir.

• 1:31:17Speaker 01

  Okay, he's going to propose two examples. Okay, extreme ownership focuses too much on achieving victory through focus on strategy and tactics, but not assessing whether war was worth fighting in the first place.

• 1:31:32Speaker 01

  For example, maybe prioritize and execute and cover and move and institute decentralized command to become the leading buggy whip manufacturer in the country. Right before Henry Ford releases the Model T. Or maybe you built the tightest, sharpest, most aggressive sales team in history, but the product they're selling is preying on the weakness of poor or ignorant.

• 1:31:54Jocko Willink?

  Okay. So, this is fairly simple. And in the book Extreme Ownership, I believe, chapter three is called "Believe." That is, you've got to believe in what you're doing. And part of believing in what you're doing is understanding why you are doing and what you're doing and how it is beneficial in the world. Right? So, for instance, both these examples would fail the test of believing in what you're doing. They would fail the test. Anyone that was in the transportation industry at the turn of the century and would understand that the buggy, the horse and buggy, was doomed when they started seeing reliable cars come out on the streets.

• 1:32:34Jocko Willink?

  And somebody that truly exercises extreme ownership would step up, would adapt, which is another key concept of extreme ownership, and lead the transition from buggy whips to this new technology of cars. So, it's okay. It's not, you're going to step up. You've got to make changes. That's part of ownership, is looking and assessing. The other example, where you're leading extreme ownership, you're leading something that is preying on weak people, well, then, that doesn't pass the test. Right? That doesn't pass the test in believing what you're doing. Because if I'm like, "Hey, you know what I'm going to get out there and do? I'm going to get out there and prey on extreme people." Yeah. You know? That's what I'm doing.

• 1:33:17Jocko Willink?

  Now, of course, if you have a person that's a sociopath, or doesn't care about others who's only out for themselves, and they exercise extreme ownership in order to accomplish an evil mission, well, yeah, that's going to be bad. Because people that, people that take ownership of things can make things happen. And if their cause is evil, then that's going to be bad. It's going to be a bad situation. So...

• 1:33:43Jocko Willink?

  You know, the thing that's inherent in extreme ownership is a true understanding of the mission and belief of the mission. And the knowledge that you're doing the right things for the right reasons. Which is why these two examples are actually non-issues.

• 1:34:01Jocko Willink?

  And then he gave another example. What's example number two?

• 1:34:03Speaker 01

  Yeah, example number two is the time and focus commitments required to practice extreme ownership come at too high a cost to your family. Who didn't sign up for this, for, you know, didn't sign up for this mission. And in the end, the gratification of having achieved your objective won't be worth what you've given up in your personal life. Perhaps substantial ownership, quote unquote, is a better fit for most people.

• 1:34:31Jocko Willink?

  Okay, well, let's just not forget that extreme ownership is not just about business in any stretch. It's about life. And you have to own the outcome in life. And that inherently includes balancing between what you do for business and what you do with your family. Now, I'll tell you that we hear all the time about how extreme ownership actually saved marriages. Not hurts them, but saves them. And, you know, the husband will stop blaming his wife, or vice versa, and look at themselves and see where they can improve. Instead of blaming your wife for what's going wrong, you say, oh, maybe it's not cool that

• 1:35:15Jocko Willink?

  I do this particular thing that I know annoys her. Right? Take some ownership of that. They take ownership of the relationship and the problems in the relationship and they fix them instead of making excuses or passing the blame. So, extreme ownership is going to help that family. And if you listen to the podcast with JP, with JP Danelle on it, which is number 46, JP's taking ownership of his marriage, which, and actually were divorced at the time, and applied the simple laws of combat, right? Simplify, cover and move, and got his marriage back on track. And so, extreme ownership is not 100% focused on business. It's focused on life.

• 1:36:01Jocko Willink?

  And the dichotomy is also there that I talk about all the time that you have to balance all the opposing forces. It's a chapter in the book called the dichotomy of leadership, right? You've got to balance these opposing forces in your world. Now, one of those opposing forces is balancing the pull of your family with the pull of your work.

• 1:36:20Jocko Willink?

  And

• 1:36:22Jocko Willink?

  yeah, you can go too far in one direction. You can go so far in one direction that you lose your, you can go so, work so hard and do such long hours that you lose your, that you lose your family. You can also do the opposite where you're, you don't do enough for, at work and you focus so much on your family that you lose your job. Which one of those is a good outcome? Neither. That's why you have to balance. Neither one of those is a good outcome. That's why you have to balance. And by the way, it's one of those things too. I've seen this happen with, you know, friends of mine that have gone on sort of a breakdown, kind of downward spiral in their life. I think this is problematic. People start having trouble with their marriage, right? And they quit their job. And they think, oh, now I'll be able to spend more time, but now all of a sudden they don't

• 1:37:06Jocko Willink?

  have any money. And it turns into a disaster. And I always say, look, man,

• 1:37:12Jocko Willink?

  think about this. Your job is what, how you provide for your family. So let's have a plan before we move in this direction. You've got to balance. If you, if you, because if you throw everything, like I just said, if you say, okay, my job's, you know, I'm too stressed out and I'm just going to leave my job and just focus on my family. Now you've got no income. You've got a whole new level of stresses coming at you. Cause who's going to put the food on the table?

• 1:37:36Speaker 01

  Is that kind of like when guys, they stop working out after they get married because oh, I gotta focus on my family, my kids, you know, and they stop working out, but oh, health down, you know?

• 1:37:45Jocko Willink?

  Health down, energy down. Well, you know, you become a low energy father. We don't want that.

• 1:37:50Speaker 01

  That's bad for everybody.

• 1:37:51Jocko Willink?

  That's bad for the whole family. So yeah, that's another thing. If you got, if you got your, your Wife or your husband is saying, hey, you know, you're working out all the time. Or, you know, I don't like this. Say, hey, here's the benefits. Do you want me to be around for an extended period of time? You want me to be alive past sixty? Do you want me to be healthy? Do you want me to be able to defend our family? Should there be some kind of an encounter? I know I do want to be able to defend this family. So, yeah, I gotta spend a little extra time on the gun range. Yeah, I gotta spend a little extra time on the jiu-jitsu mat. Yes, I'm gonna work out. That's, I'm doing that. You think I'm doing it for me? I'm doing it for us.

• 1:38:29Speaker 01

  For us, yeah.

• 1:38:30Jocko Willink?

  I'm doing it for us. Now, of course, you gotta balance that too, cuz you can go overboard there too.

• 1:38:34Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:38:35Jocko Willink?

  So you gotta be careful.

• 1:38:37Speaker 01

  Like, working out is not to be confused with going to the gym.

• 1:38:41Jocko Willink?

  Oh, yeah, no, there's, there's, there's a huge separation there.

• 1:38:43Speaker 01

  Yeah, so guys will like go to the gym or even the jiu-jitsu mat. Cuz let's face it, there is a big element of social. You know, that social component in jiu-jitsu academies and stuff.

• 1:38:53Jocko Willink?

  What do you mean?

• 1:38:54Speaker 01

  When you go to jiu-jitsu, like, you, there's a lot of hanging out.

• 1:38:58Jocko Willink?

  You mean talking to other humans?

• 1:38:59Speaker 01

  Talking to other people, yeah, your friends, you know, you know what I'm saying?

• 1:39:01Jocko Willink?

  Of course.

• 1:39:02Speaker 01

  So, some people, they'll be like, hey, I'll go to jiu-jitsu. Meanwhile, new baby, whatever. Hey, I'm going to jiu-jitsu. But then they'll roll for the hour, hour and a half, and then three and a half, four hours later, they'll come home. Hey, I was doing jiu-jitsu, I was doing jiu-jitsu, I'll think here's the benefits. And be like, yeah, you did the jiu-jitsu for hour and a half. The other, for, whatever long, you were cruising with your friends in the lounge, drinking acai.

• 1:39:26Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, don't do that.

• 1:39:27Speaker 01

  So, don't confuse it, is what I'm saying.

• 1:39:28Jocko Willink?

  Don't confuse it, yeah, you gotta have balance.

• 1:39:29Speaker 01

  Or use it, you know how people will use it while I gotta go, but meanwhile.

• 1:39:34Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, that's good. And, you know, these questions, what I liked about him is he's saying, hey, you know, basically, put the extreme ownership attitude into the UFC cage, and let's see how it does in these problem examples. So, I think, I think it does alright.

• 1:39:50Speaker 01

  Or just get your home gym, you know?

• 1:39:53Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, I definitely recommend the home gym.

• 1:39:57Speaker 01

  Jocko, do you follow Stoicism? Did Zen practice lead to your thoughts about detachment and ego?

• 1:40:09Jocko Willink?

  So I get asked these questions the other day on Twitter and as you know, when I'm answering Twitter, I'm doing pretty terse answers because I'm answering a lot of different questions. What is terse? Sure. So this one in particular, I remember that answer, someone said, "Do you follow Stoicism?" And I wrote back, "No." "No, don't." And then a while later, I get, you know, the thread back and the guy come back and said something along the lines of like, you know, "I don't know what it is you don't agree with with Stoicism. It's very similar to what you believe." Or something like that. He wasn't being a jerk. He was just like, you know, you know, what's, what's wrong with you? Why don't you practice Stoicism? And

• 1:40:51Jocko Willink?

  here's the deal. And I'd love to come back here and tell people how learned I am. And how well-read I am about the philosophies and the ancient cultures and the eastern religions and all matters in the world philosophical.

• 1:41:13Jocko Willink?

  But the fact is, I'm not. I'm not. And actually, when I was a kid, and by the way, kid for me lasts a long time. I mean, kid for me goes pretty recent, you know, I mean, six months ago, I kind of consider myself a kid. But when I was a kid, the teachings of philosophers and of the ancients, those, that information was transmitted by academics, right? By teachers or by professors, professors and to be blunt, and frank, when I was a kid, there was a lot of

• 1:41:54Jocko Willink?

  people in that realm, in the academic realm, that didn't exactly command my respect. Now, they were people that went to college. I wanted to learn from people that went to war. That's what I wanted.

• 1:42:07Jocko Willink?

  Now, the part that I missed was that many of the ancients were warriors and their teachings were important. And through my own arrogance, looking at these professors and these teachers, "Ah, I don't need to learn anything from that person. I'm gonna go in the military." "I'm gonna learn from a gunnery sergeant in the Marine Corps." That's what I was thinking.

• 1:42:32Jocko Willink?

  But the fact is, the reading and the studying and the schooling did not really lead me to any of my beliefs or values.

• 1:42:46Jocko Willink?

  It was life that did. It was, it was the things I experienced that brought me to this place where I am right now. Not the books that I read, not the classes that I attended. And like I said, of course, part of this, a big part of this was just my own ignorance and ego. Me saying, what can these professors teach me? And, and that's why footnote right now, caveat or, or

• 1:43:17Jocko Willink?

  secondary thought, everyone out there, when you have the opportunity to learn, just take full advantage of it. And I know now, again, I know now that you can learn from anybody. You can learn from anybody. Everybody's got something to teach you. So, open up your mind. And

• 1:43:40Jocko Willink?

  that being said, since I was too stupid and arrogant to learn oftentimes, to learn from books and teachers, I had to learn from life. And as I look now, yeah, I see similarities between, again, I'll use the word beliefs, but I think that's a strong word, but I see similarities between what I think and the other philosophical thoughts throughout the ages. And I think that's partially, I think that's actually not even partially. I think that's because there are, really are some universal truths for humanity and for people. And I think that if you walk the path of life

• 1:44:25Jocko Willink?

  and you pay attention to what's happening around you and you're exposed to

• 1:44:36Jocko Willink?

  Joy and you're exposed to suffering and you're exposed to love and to hate and to war and to peace. I think if you have led down that path and you have followed down that path, I think that all the paths, they kind of arrive at some place that's fairly similar. And the term that they kind of use is this term of enlightenment. And again, I think that's definitely too strong of a word for what I'm trying to say, but that's

• 1:45:13Jocko Willink?

  sort of a broad term that captures it. But I think these paths, they all lead to a similar form of enlightenment. And I don't think it really matters what terrain you went through or what specific path you took. I think that we see that the path looks very similar and it says the same things. When you get to the end, it says to be disciplined. It says to keep your ego in check. It says to keep things simple and work hard and tell the truth and believe in what you say and what you do and treat other people with respect.

• 1:45:56Jocko Willink?

  And when you start getting overwhelmed with emotions, you got to detach from those. And I think that there's things like those that are just universal truths. And I think you can find them in what the Buddha said, or what Marcus Aurelius said, or what the Bible says, or what any number of religious or philosophical teachers, I think they're all pretty similar. And I think you can learn them from those ancients, or I think you can find them yourself. And unless you're, of course, too stubborn and arrogant to listen and hear the lessons of the past, but if you're not.

• 1:46:45Jocko Willink?

  I think you can get there. And that's sort of how I arrived at, again, the, this, the word is too strong. But the way I think, I'll put it to you that way, the way I think. It's where I ended up. And I didn't get too much direction along the way. And now it's really obvious. I mean, when you look at, and I'm sure we'll do Marcus Aurelius at some point. You know, because his, you know, stoic sayings are awesome. And they totally match. And I wish I would have, I wish what I would have learned about Marcus Aurelius in sophomore year in high school. I said, wow, this guy's got it together. I'm going to listen to him. He was a warrior, but I didn't do that. Why?

• 1:47:30Jocko Willink?

  Because the guy that was teaching me, I was saying, no, this guy doesn't know what he's talking about. This guy's some teacher, right?

• 1:47:36Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:47:37Jocko Willink?

  There's a reason they're called teachers so they can teach you, but you gotta be willing to listen and learn. So, you know, I always try and I've talked about this when we talked about the, the Jocko Academy, right? Having a school. I always talked about tying this thread between all this history in the world. So you, so that people, so the kids can understand what it means and where it came from. And I think that that's something that I never made those connections when I was a kid. I never made those connections in high school, you know? Even when I was going to college, I went to college, I was pretty old when I went to college for a college student. I think I was 27, right? So I was a mature, allegedly mature, I wasn't mature. You know what I was trying to do when I went to college? Get good grades. Beat the teacher. It was me against the teacher.

• 1:48:20Jocko Willink?

  The, the, the contest was grade. I'm going to beat you. I wasn't saying, you know what? This guy really has a lot to show me. This guy really, I can learn a lot from this. I can apply this in my life. No, I wasn't saying that. I was too stupid. I was too arrogant to say that. So what did I do? Studied hard, memorized what they told me to memorize. That's what I did. I wasn't, I was focused on the grade, not on the learning. Now I'll tell you. That's not an excuse for, oh, I'm not gonna worry about the grade. I'm just gonna learn. No, wrong answer. I'm saying this specifically for my kids that are probably listening to this. And they'll say like, well, Dad, you know, I'm focused on the learning. Negative. You focused on the learning. Good. You still get your A. That's what you get. You still win. You still win.

• 1:49:04Jocko Willink?

  So that's, I guess, you know, again, I'm, I'm sorry. And I think sometimes people get caught up in like, it's a, you ever heard me say, talk about, um, when, when we got back, when I got back from my first deployment to Iraq. And we, actually, when I was in TU Bruiser with Leif, we had a saying, it was a joke. It was a wee-weeab, which stood for when I was in Baghdad. Right? When I was in Baghdad, because a lot of people now, everyone had done one deployment to Baghdad. And so anytime they were having any kind of a conversation, they'd say, well, when I was in Baghdad. And we'd go, wee-weeab. So you'd get some guy, some instructor or some cadre from the training, from the training detachment that'd be like, when I was in Baghdad, we did this every time.

• 1:49:49Jocko Willink?

  And it's okay, it's wee-weeab, right? Because it's a way of saying, oh, look to, I, this is, this is confirmed in the past and therefore it's correct. Right? And I always said, man, you can't say that. You can't say wee-weeab, right? You can't say when I was in Baghdad. You can't say, this is the way, this is I learned. What you say should be able to stand on its own two feet. That's my point. So, I think a lot of times people say, oh, well, Marcus Aurelius said this. Or the Buddha says this, and therefore it's, it's, it's correct. They very well might be correct, but let's get the argument not to, not to use their quotes. Why don't you come up with something to stand on your own two feet? Again, nothing wrong with using the guidance of the ancients, right? There's nothing wrong with that. That's brilliant.

• 1:50:33Jocko Willink?

  From all these books, the Bible's got all kinds of things in it that are very impactful, great, great proverbs to live by.

• 1:50:44Jocko Willink?

  But you know what? Where'd they come from? And why not figure out how to use them? Or how to, how to make them stand on their own two feet? Were you not just pointing to? You know, well, it says this there. It's the book says this. Marx realist said that. Buddha said this other thing. No. No, let's, let's develop our. Not, not develop our own, but. Let's make sure we test what we're saying. We believe in what we're saying. That's how I ended up where I'm at. So. You know, kind of a rough path to take. Some things in life you gotta learn on your own.

• 1:51:16Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, a lot. Most of the time that's the best way. Yeah.

• 1:51:20Jocko Willink?

  Unfortunately, a lot of things you gotta learn. Only through experience.

• 1:51:25Speaker 01

  Wee wee.

• 1:51:26Jocko Willink?

  Wee wee. When I was a back then. You, you just, just like rank, just like I can't say like echo, I outrank you. Therefore you will do it this way.

• 1:51:34Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:51:35Jocko Willink?

  Just like that. I also can't say echo. I did it this way in the past. Therefore it's the correct way to do it. Those are equally bad arguments.

• 1:51:43Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:51:44Jocko Willink?

  Don't do them.

• 1:51:45Speaker 01

  Yeah. I hear that. A lot the when, you know, especially when, when I first got into reading. I, well, most of the time I'd hear it, I'd kind of think. About that. Where. I could be like, hey, you know, if I come across a situation where I'm gonna apply some knowledge that I learned. And if I'm in a situation where I gotta. Convey the, the merits of that knowledge, you know? It does feel weird to be like, hey, the book said it this way. And more like you're just this like blind. Per like you don't really understand the value of, of what you learn. You just, oh, it said to do it, you know?

• 1:52:20Jocko Willink?

  If you have to. If you have to refer to the source without, if, if I just say, oh, echo, we need to do this way. Cause the book said this.

• 1:52:28Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:52:28Jocko Willink?

  No, that's not a good answer. What you should be saying is, you know, I read this and here's why I see it apply. And here's what this book says, but this is where I think it, you know, you can use it maybe to help your, your arguments. But don't let your argument rest on this thing.

• 1:52:42Speaker 01

  Yeah. Yeah.

• 1:52:44Jocko Willink?

  That's my opinion.

• 1:52:44Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:52:45Jocko Willink?

  Know yourself.

• 1:52:47Speaker 01

  I'm gonna go ahead and a hundred percent agree with you. And I was gonna say, unless that book is about putting together your computer, then you just follow the book. But.

• 1:52:57Speaker 01

  When you really think about it, still, it still holds up. You should understand the computer and how it works.

• 1:53:02Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, I'm not gonna get into that game.

• 1:53:06Speaker 01

  Anyway. All right. Uh, let's go one more.

• 1:53:09Jocko Willink?

  Okay, let's do it.

• 1:53:14Speaker 01

  What do you do on the days when you're just not feeling it?

• 1:53:19Jocko Willink?

  Those days.

• 1:53:23Jocko Willink?

  Those days when I'm tired or worn out or just basically sick of the grind.

• 1:53:35Jocko Willink?

  What do I do on those days?

• 1:53:39Jocko Willink?

  I go anyways.

• 1:53:43Jocko Willink?

  I get it done, even if I'm just going through the motions. I go through the motions. I don't really want to work out, I work out. I really don't want to hammer on a project, I hammer on the project. Don't really want to get up and get out of bed.

• 1:54:08Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, I get up and get out of bed.

• 1:54:13Jocko Willink?

  Now, these could be signals that you need some time off. And those signals might be right.

• 1:54:25Jocko Willink?

  They could be correct, but don't take today off. Not today, wait until tomorrow. Don't give in to the immediate gratification that is whispering in your ear.

• 1:54:43Jocko Willink?

  Shut that down. Do not listen to that little voice. Instead, go through the motions. Lift the weights, sprint the hill, work on the project, get out of bed.

• 1:55:01Jocko Willink?

  Now, as an overall rule, I do not like procrastination. You need to get things done.

• 1:55:12Jocko Willink?

  But if you are going to rest, that is one thing that you should procrastinate on. That's the one thing I want you to put off until tomorrow.

• 1:55:24Jocko Willink?

  And if, when tomorrow comes,

• 1:55:28Jocko Willink?

  you still feel like you need to rest, or you need to take a break, then okay.

• 1:55:35Jocko Willink?

  Take it.

• 1:55:38Jocko Willink?

  But the chances are, you won't. You won't need that rest. Chances are, you will realize that the desire to rest was just weakness. It was just the desire to take the path of least resistance, the downhill path, the easy path.

• 1:55:59Jocko Willink?

  And by simply going through the motions,

• 1:56:04Jocko Willink?

  you overcame that path, and you stayed on the righteous path, the disciplined path. You stayed on the warpath,

• 1:56:15Jocko Willink?

  which is right where you know

• 1:56:20Jocko Willink?

  that you belong.

• 1:56:26Jocko Willink?

  And I think that's all I've got for tonight.

• 1:56:32Jocko Willink?

  Echo, before we go, is there any way that people can support this podcast?

• 1:56:37Speaker 01

  Well, yes, there is, actually.

• 1:56:41Speaker 01

  Alright, yeah, we'll go a couple ways. The supplements.

• 1:56:48Speaker 01

  That's more supporting yourself, ultimately, because you do get 10% off, and you get good supplements, which is rare, mind you. But anyway, Onnit is the company, it's onnit.com/jaco, that's how you get 10% off.

• 1:57:02Speaker 01

  AlphaBrain for your brain, ShroomTech for your performance, body performance.

• 1:57:12Jocko Willink?

  Warrior bars for your stomach?

• 1:57:15Speaker 01

  Yeah. Bro, I was in, we were, my friends came over from Arizona this past weekend, and I worked out or whatever, they were still cooking, so I busted out a warrior bar. And we're cruising, and all the kids too, two years, three years old, six years old, and then they ate my warrior bars. Kids, and there's a little bit of spice to it.

• 1:57:36Jocko Willink?

  Did they then start getting after it?

• 1:57:40Speaker 01

  Yeah, but in the spirit of accuracy, they had been getting after it big time even before that. But um, anyway, the point there is that they do taste good, even three year olds. Don't mind a little spice. That's how good they taste.

• 1:57:55Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 1:57:55Speaker 01

  Not to say that you're a three year old if you eat them though. They're good for it. They're warrior bars.

• 1:58:01Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 1:58:01Speaker 01

  Buffalo meat, gluten free, by the way.

• 1:58:03Jocko Willink?

  They didn't call them three year olds.

• 1:58:05Speaker 01

  Nope, nope. They didn't call them formula. They didn't call them that. It's warrior bars. Yeah, no, they're good though.

• 1:58:11Jocko Willink?

  When I go on trips now, like I go to speak with a company or I'm going to work with they, you know, a lot of times they provide lunch. A lot of times now, there's warrior bars.

• 1:58:23Speaker 01

  Oh man, that's advanced.

• 1:58:24Jocko Willink?

  There's, there's, they're, they're, they're fully engaged in what we're doing, which is awesome.

• 1:58:29Speaker 01

  And you mentioned us training. Thank you for that, by the way. Bringing that up again. Uh, I was gonna take some shroom tech, just to be like, today's the day.

• 1:58:41Speaker 01

  And I didn't.

• 1:58:44Jocko Willink?

  That was problematic.

• 1:58:46Speaker 01

  You understand, yeah.

• 1:58:47Jocko Willink?

  And I also, you know, when we got done yesterday, I kind of led you in. I said, hey, you know, man, you know what? Here's the deal. Cause it just for, just to put this in context. Yesterday, not a good day for Echo on the map.

• 1:58:58Speaker 01

  Here's the thing, it started good.

• 1:59:01Jocko Willink?

  Okay.

• 1:59:01Speaker 01

  In my opinion, given my, my trajectory learning on it.

• 1:59:07Jocko Willink?

  It wasn't a great day, right, for Echo on the map. It was a day of, of.

• 1:59:14Speaker 01

  You know, they say either you win or you learn. Bro, I learned a lot. Yes.

• 1:59:20Jocko Willink?

  So we get done and you know, we're doing a little debrief. We got big Andy there too. And I went over something with Andy. I was like, hey, man, I really feel this is good for you and let's do it. And I sit down next to Echo and I said, hey, man, you know, I don't know. You know, today you just, you know, normally when you roll, you feel like, you know, about this level. And then today you felt about, I don't know about maybe 19% worse. And of course he didn't have his, uh, his rash, his, his podcast rash guard on. So I, uh, he was actually thinking I was gonna tell him there was some real, but maybe there is something real there. I don't know.

• 1:59:57Speaker 01

  I don't know. Probably. Nonetheless, uh, yeah, so it could be attributed to one of those two things. I didn't take shroom tech.

• 2:00:06Speaker 01

  And I didn't have my rash card. So one of those is then I think.

• 2:00:08Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, well, I like what you're doing here. Instead of blaming me.

• 2:00:11Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:00:12Jocko Willink?

  You're taking the blame on yourself.

• 2:00:14Speaker 01

  Yeah. What's the thing? Um, a really good craftsman blames his tools. Yeah. I think that's the actual saying. Anyway, back to the shroom tech. That's a good one for performance. Uh, I'll bring good too. Anyway, on it.com slash Jaco 10% off. Support your wallet.

• 2:00:33Speaker 01

  Alleviate it by 10% or give it a 10% break. Yeah. There you go. And it supports this podcast. You know, it's like a circle of support, like on it supports us. We like support on it. We think that.

• 2:00:49Speaker 01

  Technically, even if on it wasn't like we weren't sponsored by on it. I have shroom tech. I've been taking shroom tech before that. So it's kind of like, you know, anyway, circle of support there. Um, another good way, Amazon, the Amazon click through. You go to the website, jockel podcast.com, click through the Amazon link. It's also in the store.

• 2:01:09Speaker 01

  Click through before you do your holiday shopping or any shopping.

• 2:01:15Speaker 01

  That's a really good way. The key there is to remember to do it and it doesn't cost you anything.

• 2:01:22Jocko Willink?

  What do you put a sticky on your computer?

• 2:01:24Speaker 01

  Yeah. Um, that's a really good way to support, um, this podcast. Does a lot.

• 2:01:31Jocko Willink?

  Costs you nothing and provides good support.

• 2:01:35Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:01:36Jocko Willink?

  And it's really kind of invisible to you other than that little motion. So that sounds like a really good way to support the podcast.

• 2:01:44Speaker 01

  It's kind of like you ever see, you ever watch.

• 2:01:45Jocko Willink?

  Jeff Bezos, right? That's his name. The leader of Amazon.

• 2:01:49Speaker 01

  Bezos.

• 2:01:50Jocko Willink?

  Jeff Bezos. Yeah. Hey, that guy seems to have enough money at amazon.com. That thrown a couple shillings at the podcast here. Seems like a good plan to me. We support that.

• 2:02:04Speaker 01

  Yeah. Yeah, it's good.

• 2:02:07Speaker 01

  Clicking through Amazon is, you know, when you watch Saving Private Ryan?

• 2:02:11Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 2:02:11Speaker 01

  You know, at the end, when the support comes, saves everybody.

• 2:02:14Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, it's not that big of a deal. I mean, we want the support, but it's not saving people's lives.

• 2:02:21Speaker 01

  But it's kind of dope like that. I'm saying, you know, anyway, it's good. Amazon, yeah. Click through the website. That's cool for your holiday shopping. Or just some duct tape. Somebody sent me some Penn State duct tape. Who's that? Debbie's?

• 2:02:34Jocko Willink?

  No, that wasn't Debbie. That was Sarah.

• 2:02:36Speaker 01

  Sarah.

• 2:02:39Jocko Willink?

  Now, everything's covered in Penn State duct tape.

• 2:02:41Speaker 01

  Yeah, I know. Speaking of which, speaking of Sarah, Armstrong.

• 2:02:45Jocko Willink?

  Yes.

• 2:02:49Speaker 01

  The girls' t-shirts, right? I didn't announce that before. People have been, you know, in the game and kind of seeing them and, but yeah, okay, the girls' shirts are in. They're v-necked. They're shirts for the women.

• 2:03:04Speaker 01

  Four colors. Black.

• 2:03:06Jocko Willink?

  Approved.

• 2:03:07Speaker 01

  Gray.

• 2:03:07Jocko Willink?

  Approved.

• 2:03:08Speaker 01

  OD green.

• 2:03:09Jocko Willink?

  Approved.

• 2:03:09Speaker 01

  Pink.

• 2:03:15Speaker 01

  I'm sorry, Brad. You got, you got, what do you call it? Outvoted?

• 2:03:18Jocko Willink?

  I got vetoed or something.

• 2:03:19Speaker 01

  Yeah, vetoed. You got vetoed. You were literally the only one who didn't want pink.

• 2:03:24Jocko Willink?

  Seriously?

• 2:03:25Speaker 01

  I know. It's like your podcast and all this stuff. Anyway, they're good, man. I think they came out good. We got some good reviews from Ally. Ally, by the way, Ally and Cassie, a lot of times when they send the, you know, the package, they send the packages out.

• 2:03:42Jocko Willink?

  For those of you that don't know, that's the crew.

• 2:03:45Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:03:45Jocko Willink?

  That.

• 2:03:46Speaker 01

  The behind the scenes.

• 2:03:47Jocko Willink?

  That, that packages up, the packages.

• 2:03:49Speaker 01

  Yeah, and they get after it. Like Ally will be, like if someone's from, I forget where, but it was like Dale King was one of them where she'll write like, "Go Cubs," or, you know, like if that's your, if you're in Chicago or something, she'll be like, "Go Cubs." And she'll write it on you.

• 2:04:06Jocko Willink?

  Personal message.

• 2:04:07Speaker 01

  Yeah, like, yeah, because she's like, you kind of feel like you know the person, you know? Because really, when you think about it, it's like, oh, I know how big they are because their shirt size. I know where they live, you know, kind of thing. I mean, it's not like they're going to stalk me like that, but I'm just saying they kind of, they're into it.

• 2:04:22Jocko Willink?

  They're not going to stalk you, but they'll support your local baseball team.

• 2:04:25Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah. Nonetheless, the only reason I bring it up. Even they were like dang, these are really good shirts.

• 2:04:33Jocko Willink?

  Okay, we get the message.

• 2:04:36Speaker 01

  Good.

• 2:04:36Jocko Willink?

  They're pink.

• 2:04:38Speaker 01

  Pink, some are pink, some are OD green. Discipline equals freedom, women's shirts, money. Also, of course, uh, rash guards. Nineteen-ish percent improvement so far, ha- holding up. That claim has been holding up. UFC fighters confirming, Jocko confirming with me when I didn't have my rash guard and I was nineteen percent less effective. Anyway, and they happen to look really good, according to the feedback I've been getting. So anyway, if you go to JacoStore.com, you can look at them and look at the girls' t-shirts and the other shirts on there. If you like them, get one, support that way. Represent. Um, also hoodies, yes, of course hoodies are out.

• 2:05:21Jocko Willink?

  Chili outside.

• 2:05:23Speaker 01

  Yeah, it is. Yep, it's like a heavier weight. It's not the heavy, heavy, heavy, heavy.

• 2:05:29Jocko Willink?

  Those four heavies, I think.

• 2:05:30Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's not like snow, you know.

• 2:05:32Jocko Willink?

  Too heavy.

• 2:05:32Speaker 01

  Well, cause someone emailed me. I gotta remember all the people like who actually asked these specific questions, but he was like, how heavy is it? Is it? Um, well, it was, what was the brand? Car- Carhartt? Carhartt?

• 2:05:46Jocko Willink?

  Carhartt?

• 2:05:46Speaker 01

  Yeah, is it like, I, I understand a Carhartt, that, that's gonna, you know, provide this and you know, as far as warmth and heaviness.

• 2:05:53Jocko Willink?

  Arctic situation.

• 2:05:54Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, so, exactly right. So that's a good example. So I'm like, you know, how is it comparatively? It's not that. It's not Arctic conditions. It's like,

• 2:06:05Speaker 01

  like Kokei conditions.

• 2:06:07Jocko Willink?

  What conditions?

• 2:06:08Speaker 01

  Kokei.

• 2:06:09Jocko Willink?

  What's that?

• 2:06:09Speaker 01

  Monicaia, how about that? It's Monicaia condition. Kokei is a mountain on Kauai where you go up, it's like, it's, yeah, it gets kinda cold.

• 2:06:18Jocko Willink?

  References that no one understands, that's cool, do it.

• 2:06:21Speaker 01

  Anyway, it's like, it's almost the heaviest as far as hoodies go, but anyway, they're good. Check those out. If you like them, go ahead, support that way, grab one of those. Keep yourself kinda warm or like, you know, as far as when you work out and stuff. Or just wearing them. So yeah, there it is. Um, of course, subscribe YouTube. I'm putting more videos. Currently, I'm putting more. Put one the other day, I'm putting one today. They're like little bite sized like bits, you know? Cause sometimes you don't wanna listen to the two hours, especially on YouTube. You just wanna listen, how do I like recover from setbacks at work?

• 2:06:53Jocko Willink?

  Jocko, Jocko McNuggets?

• 2:06:59Speaker 01

  Yeah, exactly right. So you can, you know, you can look at them for like shorter time, like three to, I don't know, eight minutes or something. Or if you know, if you know someone who's like, hey, you were asking me this question, remember, you send them that, boom, advice. It's like shareable advice kind of thing. Anyway, that's on YouTube. Yeah. So subscribe to YouTube. You can support that way. And iTunes, of course.

• 2:07:24Jocko Willink?

  Oh, you got a problem? Here's a two and a half hour.

• 2:07:27Speaker 01

  Podcast. It's like when people were like, hey, I'm trying to get over the situation at work. And then they say, hey, read this book. I'm like, bro, I go to work tomorrow.

• 2:07:34Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. I need to know now.

• 2:07:36Speaker 01

  Yes, exactly. So it's kind of the same situation with those YouTube fight, fight sides videos. Or you can just revisit the, the, the, the subject matter. You know what I mean? Like if you listen to it, like, let me go read, yeah, let me revisit it. Reinforce. Exactly. So there you go. And then, yeah, write a review on iTunes.

• 2:07:53Jocko Willink?

  It doesn't take you long to cut those things out, does it?

• 2:07:57Jocko Willink?

  Cause I think you should just put a massive number of those out.

• 2:08:00Speaker 01

  Yeah, just to be on there, right? Yeah. A lot of times I'll think of it in terms of like, you know how when you put out the podcast every week, it's like, oh, the new one's on, let me check it out. So a lot of times I just, I'm like dogmatic in that way where I just, I think just through habit, I, I think of it that way. So I'm like, okay, I'm gonna bite that way. You, you just put one, can't let it marinate for a little while before you put it in. But yeah, I shouldn't think about it that way. It just needs to be on there.

• 2:08:25Jocko Willink?

  Think of it this way. Instead of thinking it that way, think of it this way. When you put one out, that's five minutes and 56 seconds long, five minutes and 56 late, later, moments later, that someone's waiting for the next one.

• 2:08:40Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:08:41Jocko Willink?

  So hook them up. Yeah. Take care of some people. Echo Charles.

• 2:08:43Speaker 01

  All right, let's do that. I'm in. Um, yeah. And boom, there you go.

• 2:08:49Jocko Willink?

  Good. Uh, a couple of other things. Jocka White Tea. If you want to get some of that, it's probably, probably going to be the only beverage you're ever going to want to drink ever again. And I think that there's a time coming in the very near future where when you go to a bar or to a club out at night to have a good time, I think in the future, the only thing that they're going to be selling in the bar in the club, in the restaurant, is just Jocka White Tea. There's not going to be any more beer, no more whiskey, no more wine, no more poison that tastes like gasoline.

• 2:09:23Jocko Willink?

  I declare that those days are numbered.

• 2:09:27Jocko Willink?

  And I think it's gonna be time, people are gonna be wanting to drink something that makes you smarter, instead of something that makes you dumber, something that makes you stronger, instead of making you weaker, something that makes you healthier, instead of making you sicker.

• 2:09:44Speaker 01

  Dang.

• 2:09:45Jocko Willink?

  So that's why I think people are gonna be on it. Amazon, you can get some of that. While you're also on Amazon. If you like this podcast and what we talked about, you can get a book. And this is, sometimes people find the podcast, and they haven't read the book Extreme Ownership, by me and my brother Leif Babin. That's pretty normal, right? And sometimes it's the opposite.

• 2:10:09Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:10:10Jocko Willink?

  People got the book, and then they got, then they found the podcast. So either way, but I'm just confirming, if you're a person that listens to the podcast, the book is also there. You can grab that from Amazon. And also, if you kinda wanna keep these conversations going with Echo Charles and myself, you can find us. We will be on the interwebs, all of the interwebs, on Twitter, Instagram, and of course, we even on that is bookie. Echo is at Echo Charles, and I am at Jocko Willink. And finally, thanks everybody for listening.

• 2:10:52Jocko Willink?

  If you're in uniform, thank you for serving. Thanks for taking the fight to the enemy. Thanks for stopping criminals. Thanks for putting out fires. Thanks to all of you in uniform in service. And the rest of you troopers out there, fighting your own fight, make it a good fight. Make it the kind of fight that win or lose, you walk off the field of battle knowing you gave it everything you could give, and you had nothing left.

• 2:11:29Jocko Willink?

  And that fight, that fight that I'm talking about is life. And while I was talking about going through the motions sometimes, when you just haven't got the intrinsic drive to go full on at a task, let me tell you what, when it comes to life, don't just go through the motions.

• 2:11:55Jocko Willink?

  Live.

• 2:11:58Jocko Willink?

  Live. Fight the good fight.

• 2:12:02Jocko Willink?

  Live. An outstanding life. Don't just go through life. Don't just get through it.

• 2:12:13Jocko Willink?

  Instead,

• 2:12:16Jocko Willink?

  get after it.

• 2:12:19Jocko Willink?

  So, until next time. This is Echo and Jocko.

• 2:12:26Jocko Willink?

  Out.