164: Overexplaining, Overthinking, Overtexting? Here’s Why

In the 4th episode of the Self Esteem Series, Sabrina Zohar dives deep into the emotional patterns that sabotage relationships, specifically protest behavior. She explains how certain behaviors like excessive texting, withdrawal, and people-pleasing are often unconscious responses to fear of abandonment or disconnection. Sabrina shares raw personal stories and offers insights on how to break these patterns, set healthy boundaries, and foster genuine connection. If you've ever found yourself trapped in a cycle of emotional escalation, over-explaining, or testing your partner's commitment, this episode is for you. Tune in to understand why these behaviors emerge and how you can move toward healthier, more secure relationships.$300 off your first Prenuvo scan at https://prenuvo.com/?discount=SABRINAStuck After the Podcast? Master Implementation in 8 Weeks with Sabrina's Foundation Course HERE! Enrollment for The Self Love Course, The Nervous System Course, and The Break Up Course is now closed. For your continued education and growth, please explore The Foundation Course, which is currently available. Get Ad free HERE! Want to work with Sabrina? HERE! Get merch for The Sabrina Zohar Show HERE! Don't forget to follow Sabrina and The Sabrina Zohar Show on Instagram and Sabrina on TikTok! Video now available on YOUTUBE! Disclaimer: The Sabrina Zohar Show, formerly known as Do The Work, is not affiliated with A. Z & associates LLC in any capacity. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

  LinkedIn is pretty amazing at helping you grow your small business. We cannot stop your new clients from emailing you at 3 a.m.

• 0:09Speaker 00

  We can help you sell, market, and hire in one place. We cannot help you be in three places at once. And while we can't help you organize your calendar, LinkedIn can help you land more clients so you have a calendar to organize. Grow your small business on LinkedIn. Learn more at LinkedIn.com/smallbusiness.

• 0:30Speaker 01

  The best part of waking up? A full cup of Folgers coffee and music on full blast.

• 0:56Speaker 01

  Shop Folgers instant coffee and more at your nearest retailer.

• 1:00Sabrina Zohar?

  Hello, hello, hello. And welcome to another episode of the Sabrina Zohar Show. My name is Sabrina Zohar and I am your host. Hi, babes. We got a special episode today, y'all. I'm really excited. It's something that your girl used to fucking do all the time. And you guys ask all the time, every time I say it, you're like, wait, what is that? We're talking about protest behavior and triggers. We're gonna talk kind of both. We have tons of episodes on triggers if you want to go deeper. But we don't really talk about protest behavior and all the attachment styles. This isn't just one. So wherever you are on the spectrum, I got you. I'm so excited. Guys, as always, if you need anything, everything is at sabrina zohar.com, right here in the show notes. If you want to work one-on-one, ask a question, join a course, whatever you guys need. We're always doing new things, so join the email list, follow along on the socials. And guys, as always, please don't forget to rate and review the show.

• 1:45Sabrina Zohar?

  It means the world. If you could just leave a heart, leave a comment on something that you listen to, leave a five-star review if you think the show is worth it, and share it with a friend, because it really does mean the world. All right, babies. Without further ado, let's get right on into it, shall we? Hi, friends. Oh, I'm so excited to be back with you guys. All right, life update. Not a ton happening besides the fact that I told you guys that I got my scan back and I'm clear. I'm so grateful, I'm so excited. But you guys, the book has been turned in. That's it. Like, we're on like, the last step. This is it. So by next year, oh my God, I'm gonna be an author. I am so over the moon and so grateful. And sometimes I have to pinch myself to remember where we started.

• 2:28Sabrina Zohar?

  And actually, this morning, I got to do that. And I got to go down a little trip down memory lane with Clemmie. And I was looking at a photo and it was, I was just like, you know, scrolling through, and the photo came up of the day that I took him to the vet and found out that he had kidney failure. And a lot of you guys have asked, episode 10, if you want to hear about my journey with him and how he changed me. And I remember standing there being so confused because they told me a month prior that his kidneys looked perfect. And I understand now, like, if you want to look at it, why it had to happen, right? Like, I don't, I don't ever think I needed to lose Clem. But I understand the journey that I've been on. I understand how all of this culminated and how I had to lose my best friend. And I wish every single day, that's not how it had to happen.

• 3:12Sabrina Zohar?

  I wish every single day that me and Mr. Bone were able to be together still and that you guys would have met him and that you guys would have known him. But that's unfortunately not my reality. And I could have done a lot of things to fight that internally, but instead I had to accept it. And so I understand, you know, every week, like, we've been building on. And that's why these series mean so much to me is because, one, I get to share a little bit of insight into what I'm going through and what's happening with me, because I'd like to. I, it's interesting, even before we get into the episode, I'm gonna be really fucking raw and vulnerable with you guys as if I am not before. I've been scared to share things about myself. Not like stories, not dating stuff, personal things. Because I've had the same mindset that I did when I started everything of like, who cares? No one's gonna give a shit about me. No one cares about my health.

• 3:57Sabrina Zohar?

  No one cares about my mental health. No one cares if I'm going through something. You just have to provide. You just have to be there, dance monkey. And I started to realize, like, that was not sustainable. Because, sure, I mean, I can help, I can be there, but there's so much more to me, right? There's so much more to my journey. There's so much more to how I got to where I am. And that's why I, it's so funny, I was just about to ask permission and say, I hope it's okay from you guys. And I've realized, like, I need to stop asking for permission for that. So I would love to be able to share more things that are going on with me of like alternatives that I find in health that help with my anxiety. This mold detox that like I've been scared to open up about because I'm like, no one's going to care. You don't want to hear about me and my health. You want me to give you advice. And I'm hoping that we can create a community where we have both because I

• 4:40Sabrina Zohar?

  genuinely care about you guys. I care about what you're going through. And when you find out that you got a job promotion, or when your dog passes, or when you unfortunately get the text from the person that you're dating that they're not interested. And so I'd like to be able to share more about me and things that I'm going through. And I hope you guys are in for it. And if not, that's okay, too. I'm just grateful you guys were here. So that's my little quick update is like, I'm trying to step more into me. And I think going through mold detox has taught me a lot. And again, I love Dr. Tori, Dr. Tori Thompson, if anybody ever wants to work with her, I pay her. Please know that none of that was gifted. I just really, really want to bring you guys authentic stuff that actually helps. Because I never thought that I could live a day without feeling so much anxiety in my body. And we have Dr. Sarah Zoll coming on. We're going to talk about

• 5:23Sabrina Zohar?

  physiology of anxiety. So I really hope you guys are interested and tune in. So today, let's talk about something that's near and dear to me, my baby's protest behavior and triggers. Like I said, we've talked about triggers, trigger being a neutral action or inaction that causes a big emotional reaction, right? And oftentimes, right? But that's when I say the pinch doesn't match the ouch. But we don't really, really go further into other aspects of protest behavior, triggers, things like that, and what comes after. And so that's why we've been building on every single week. And we started with like, understanding core beliefs, and then the stories that we create, and the behavior catastrophize, right? And then now we go into how does that all manifest in how we show up? And this is also so funny. I was with my client this morning, and I'm sure

• 6:07Sabrina Zohar?

  whenever he listens, I hope he knows it's him. I love him so much. And he said, I've been doing so much work on myself, and I finally met somebody that saw it and acknowledged it. And now I'm having more of my friends acknowledge it. And now I'm seeing my life is changing, and I'm having different circumstances, different relationships, and I'm having different experiences. And I am finally seeing the fruits of my labor. And I chuckled and I said, one thing that people have a misconception on with healing is as if it's just going to be this upward trajectory and you're always going to feel better and you're going to level up and that all of those things of the past go away. But life isn't linear like that, otherwise we would all be in a different place. The truth about healing is not that you one day wake up not feeling anxious. The truth about healing is that you understand how to live with it. You expand your window of tolerance and it's no longer holding on to your life.

• 6:51Sabrina Zohar?

  You have control over yours. Because now, when you actually do this work, you start to realize what you genuinely have control over. Not other people, not changing your behavior to keep them, not morphing and molding to help this person, not to leave you. You start to realize that when you take up space, when you set boundaries, when you say no, when you do what you need to do for you, that you start to bring different people in your life who respect those aspects of you and that is when you see your life change. It doesn't happen in these big moments in therapy. It happens in the little moments of what choices you make every single day and how the fuck you show up for you. And I was so excited when he said that because I said, that's part of it. Is that when we first started, you gotta say goodbye to a lot of things. You gotta grieve a lot and endings and, but like a butterfly, imagine if they watched us in the cocoon the whole time.

• 7:36Sabrina Zohar?

  Then when you come out and you spread your wings, you're a different version. And protest behavior was, I was the poster child of a baby. I was the fucking poster child. You fucking send three texts in a row and you're always already composing the fourth one in your head, even though you know you look desperate. Or giving the fucking silent treatment and secretly timing how long it takes them to reach out first, as if I haven't done that before. And that's what we're going to talk about. The self sabotage, the self protection, the shit you do when your nervous system thinks you're being abandoned. Once you see the patterns, it's really hard to unsee them. And that to me is where the change becomes real and very possible. And for me, what really changed my life. I used to exhibit the classic protest behavior. And it's interesting because when I posted this on Insta, so if you guys don't follow

• 8:18Sabrina Zohar?

  along, the Sabrina Zohar Show on Insta, I do question boxes every, like most solos, unless I already have enough from another. But I do question boxes and I do them for two reasons. One, I take AMAs, what you guys ask, even if I don't answer them on there, and I create episodes based on how many people wrote in about certain things. So there is actually a method to the madness of what I do. But second, It really is interesting to see where you guys are. It's really interesting to see what questions you guys have. And when I put on there, I was like, examples of protest behavior might be shutting down, blah, blah, blah, and over texting. I can't tell you how many responses I got of like, wait, over texting is a protest behavior? I didn't know. And it's like, oh, don't worry. I got you, baby. Because that was, I was the queen of it. Miss, I sent 173 texts to somebody who didn't want to fucking date me anymore. So why do you do it?

• 9:01Sabrina Zohar?

  When your brain perceives a relationship threat, it triggers the fight, fight, freeze fawn. So you go into dysregulation. Then there's something called the behavioral activation system from Gray in 1990. And just side note, I have really been actively trying to find you guys new studies, new data, new things. So even if a title looks familiar and you're like, but this bitch has done this before, please know, it ain't gonna be repeated. Maybe obviously isms of me will get repeated, duh, right? Like, I'm a human, it's who I am. But for the most part, I'm really actively trying to find us different studies. And I am hoping you guys are enjoying this because it helps me to evolve as well. So behavioral activation system is when you feel disconnected, your brain activates behaviors designed to restore connection. And the thing is that these are maladaptive. They're maladaptive and they, some of the examples, right?

• 9:42Sabrina Zohar?

  Excessive contact seeking, so multiple text calls, you're fucking going to their house, emotional dysregulation, crying, yelling to get attention. Oh, God, I'll tell you a story about that after. Withdraw that pushes rather than protects. So you're constantly pushing people away, right? That might be that because you're like, leave me the fuck alone. God, you're so fucking annoying, right? You're doing things intentionally to push someone away where they're just like, fine, I'll leave you alone. And testing through conflict rather than creation, or over-functioning to earn security. Oh, I used to do all of those. Oh, my God, I used to do all of those. Talk about the texting, that we already know, we don't need to go back into that, Miss 173 Text.

• 10:19Speaker 00

  LinkedIn is pretty amazing at helping you grow your small business. We cannot make your email response time faster. We can help you sell, market, and hire in one place. We cannot help you find space for your three desk drinks. Why do you have three? And while we can't help you find the perfect volume for your presentation video, LinkedIn can help you find the perfect audience for your business. Grow your small business on LinkedIn. Learn more at LinkedIn.com/smallbusiness.

• 10:49Sabrina Zohar?

  Emotional dysregulation. I'll never forget when I went to go see my dad with my brother. My dad and I got into a huge blowout, as we did. And I remember I was in the bathroom and I was crying on the floor, like hyperventilating, crying, crying, couldn't even like feel the pain anymore. And I remember just thinking, like, no one came in. No one came in. And it reminded me of being a baby again, being a kid, and realizing like, I was doing that because I was hoping someone was going to notice that I was hurt. I was hoping someone was going to notice that I was in pain. I was hoping that somebody was going to notice that I needed something and they didn't. And that was my way of trying to reconnect. And then the withdrawing that pushes rather than crushes rather than protects. Oh, my fucking god. I used to push people away by just like, I'm fine. Like, why don't you just fucking give me space? Why don't you leave me alone? Like, why don't you go do something? All the while, I didn't want that. The testing

• 11:33Sabrina Zohar?

  through conflict, oh my god. I mean, over-functioning dad, but the testing through conflict, I used to, my big ex, the one that like fucked me up, you guys know. I used to get into the like, fine, we should just break up. Fine, then I'm done. I used to say I'm done. And I'll never forget, his stepdad told him, then show her what that means. And that's not necessarily the behavior, right? Like, show her a lesson, to teach her a lesson. Thank you so much. That's an adult move. But nonetheless, I would do that. I would cause tension and issues. That's why sometimes when I say to you guys, like, you're looking for a problem, you're causing, you're starting shit, because you want to test to see, is this person going to come back? And here's the reality, they're maladaptive because they create the opposite of what you want. Pursuing creates distance. The more you like go after someone, go after someone. That's also why I have to say, we need to look at

• 12:17Sabrina Zohar?

  ourselves. I'm the first person to be like, listen, everybody take accountability, right? Like, it's not fair of somebody to shut down or to stonewall. But I also know that when I used to text someone 173 fucking times, it wouldn't be a shock that that person wouldn't answer, that they would withdraw. And when you, the withdrawing creates that abandonment. And then a testing creates the instability. And then people pleasing creates this fake intimacy. And it's just this snowball effect. And it never, it got me further from what I wanted. What I really want is to be seen, heard, and understood. It's the same, you know, I'll give you an example. When I first started the show, I was doing the like too cool for schoolgirl of like, I'm not asking people for help, no ego, right? That was, and that's okay, ego's not a bad thing, but that was my ego. And I wasn't asking people to rate and review or any of that now.

• 13:02Sabrina Zohar?

  And then I was wondering, why was I upset? Like, people aren't rating it, people aren't reviewing, I don't get it. I have no problem asking for what I need now. And here's the reminder yet again, if you haven't rated and reviewed the show, all I ask is please do that and support our sponsors, please, please, please. But really, just rate and review. But how would you guys know what it is that I need? And especially if you're like, oh, I didn't know this, why didn't you just ask? Well, we're learning, right? And that's okay. But that's why I used to push people away. I would cause conflict, I would create shit out of nowhere. I've done that with Ryan before, I'm not gonna lie. Even sometimes, I remember once he even said to me, he was like, I'm convinced you're looking for a problem. He's like, what did I say? Everything he said, I was like, oh, really? Now I'm looking for a problem? And he was like, sad babe, he was like, what do you want me to do with this? And it snapped me out. All of a sudden, I was like, ah, I'm so sorry. I was like, I'm sorry, I'm trying to cause shit.

• 13:46Sabrina Zohar?

  I think I just needed to know that you cared. Didn't mean he did anything wrong. That was a me thing. So let's talk about the attachment styles and how each one can create very specific maladaptive behaviors. You probably already know anxious attachment, protest escalation, so tons of texting, calling, it's emotional flooding and conflicts, like conflicts, like right, the crying and the hyperventilating and the I can't breathe and I'm not okay, right? And it's just like, I'm so angry, everything is these big emotions. A lot of reassurance seeking that becomes exhausting to their partners. That's where I say like, there's a difference between being like, wow, my partner literally has never said I look pretty. Okay, well, words of affirmation are important to some people. Versus that person literally just fucking told you they'll see you tomorrow and you're fucking freaking out that they don't like you anymore.

• 14:29Sabrina Zohar?

  It's like, we have to, eventually that person's gonna be like, hey, man. It's actually even wild, like I had one of my clients and he said, I noticed that a girl that I had been out on a date with, he was like, the insecurity was too much for me to handle because like every single time she'd be like, you still like me, right? Like, do you still wanna go out? And he was like, dude, I made plans with you for a day from now, like the day after tomorrow. We have confirmed twice already and he was every- Every single day she'll be like, "Just wanna make sure you're still interested." And it was like, "That's a lot. That's a lot for somebody..." She's not a lot. Let me preface that. She's not too much or a lot. The behavior sure is, though. Big difference. And hypervigilance about relationship threats. Constantly. "Why did you like this?" Like, I, you know, I get guys write in, you guys write in all the time. And some of the stuff you say, I'm like, "Nah, you're just looking for a fucking problem." I'm like, "Oh, the person said this but not this."

• 15:13Sabrina Zohar?

  And it's like, "Okay, well, you know, can they be a human? Or is it everything has to be perfect?" So avoidant. Emotional shutdown during conflict, which we know, we understand that that is their way when they feel disconnected. So what is protest behavior? It is behavior that's attributed when you feel disconnected from that person. So they might dismiss those partner's need. They might create distance when things get intimate. Or use logic to avoid feelings, which is, "My brother, love him to the moon and back, but that's what he does." And sometimes Ryan. I was like, "Well, I don't, I don't understand that." And it's like, "No, I know you don't understand that because you don't wanna get into your feels. You just wanna logic your way out of it." And these are also like coping mechanisms. You see why this is like how, when you feel a disconnection, everybody shows up differently. Anxious people show up differently than avoidant people.

• 15:58Sabrina Zohar?

  Then we go and disorganize. It's unpredictable. Sometimes they're very loving and then they can be very fucking cold, right? It's that push-pull, that really hot, really cold. Create chaos to feel like they're in control. That was the guy I dated. And you tell that I talk about all the time. That would just like start stuff. Cause you're like, "You just wanna make sure that you're controlling this, the speed of which this is." Alternating between chasing and running. That's why I'm also saying like, "It's not like one person is this and the other I'm like this." It's like, "This is the trauma is within the attachment style." That's what makes it not just anxious or avoidant. It's what makes it both, that fearful avoidant, right? If we're gonna go dismissive or fearful. And then the inability to self-soothe consistently, which I would say a lot of the attachment styles have. They might've worked in childhood, but they become the poison in your adult relationship.

• 16:43Sabrina Zohar?

  So I wanna talk about the four main types of protest behavior. Like, actually, what does it look like? So the first one's pursuing, texting, calling, over explaining, chasing. That's why I always say like delete the fucking paragraph because you're trying so hard to explain yourself to this person to get them so that they can see your side, so they can understand what you went through, so they know what you're... And it's like, man, who are you trying to explain this to and for what? Then it's like the texting, it's the calling, it's I have to get them back, I have to make this, it's like because you feel there's a disconnection and your body and your nervous system are like, I will literally do anything I can to get them back. Then we have withdrawing, silent treatment, pulling away to test if they'll pursue. Now, notice how like anxious people can also do this. I used to where I'd be like, okay, fine, if I noticed a disconnection, I'm like, I'm not texting them.

• 17:26Sabrina Zohar?

  They need to prove, they have to show me, they need to come and get me. That is protest behavior because you feel like there's a, instead of just talking to them and being like, hey, is everything good? I just wanted it to touch base. You'll test, you'll create the drama to see if they stay. And then what happens? Then what happens when it doesn't, right? Like then when we have the fights, right? And I was hurt, and again, this isn't about shame and blame, it's about fucking taking accountability. And then when they leave, you're like, see, knew it, confirmation bias. I told you they were gonna leave me and you're like, mm, did you actually know? And then the last one's people pleasing. Over-functioning to earn security, and that's where I'm like, then you go into the fawn response of like, I'll do anything I can to keep this person. And also emotional escalation, getting bigger with emotions to get attention. That's why I was talking about like the big, the hysterics and the crying and the screaming

• 18:11Sabrina Zohar?

  where it's like, okay. So let's go over the first one, the pursuing over texting. So the pattern is like when you feel disconnected, you increase contact to restore the connection. More texts, longer explanations, you're trying to fix things through communication with the other person. But, let me ask you, when has more ever really helped? The science of it is intermittent reinforcement, sometimes when they respond positively, which will reinforce the behavior of like, see, look, they didn't leave. And then we have anxiety intolerance, your nervous system can't handle the uncertainty so it acts to reduce the anxiety. And then you have the control illusion. You feel like you're doing something about the problem, right? See, but I'm trying to get the connection back, I'm trying to communicate with them, why aren't they listening to me? No, constantly talking doesn't necessarily mean you're communicating, my favorite line in Eternal Sunshine. That doesn't mean that you're communicating with them, that might just mean that you

• 18:54Sabrina Zohar?

  are dumping onto them, you're projecting onto them, that you're throwing pasta. I've seen some of the text messages, especially mine, in my anxious day where it's like, there was no through line, it was just throwing things out and then you wait to see what sticks. I remember those days where you get one text and you're like seething at that point because you're like, you didn't answer the other ones! But it wasn't necessarily helping. And so you guys wrote in, again, if you want, follow along on the Sabrina Zoe Show on Insta and I will... Pull some of these questions for you. And I do an AMA every Sunday, too. So if you guys want to be part of it.

• 19:23Speaker 00

  LinkedIn is pretty amazing at helping you grow your small business. We cannot make your email response time faster. We can help you sell, market and hire in one place. We cannot help you find space for your three desk drinks. Why do you have three? And while we can't help you find the perfect volume for your presentation video, LinkedIn can help you find the perfect audience for your business. Grow your small business on LinkedIn. Learn more at LinkedIn.com/smallbusiness.

• 19:53Speaker 01

  The best part of waking up? A full cup of Folgers coffee and music on full blast.

• 20:19Speaker 01

  Shop Folgers instant coffee and more at your nearest retailer.

• 20:23Sabrina Zohar?

  So someone said, how do I stop over texting someone when who's conflict avoidant or discarding me? So the reality here is what's happening is your nervous system is noticing that they're discarding you. Right there that this person. Well, it's interesting. You're saying they're conflict avoidant and discarding you slash discarding you. How do we know about all of so you know that they're conflict avoidant? How do you also know that they're discarding you? It sounds like, but like, here's a reality. It's like, you're already saying, how do we stop over texting? And it's like, here's a harsh reality you might not want to hear. Maybe they're not conflict avoidant. Maybe they're not just discarding you. Maybe this person can't handle anymore. Maybe this person is like, I'm done. It's always a fucking fight and a text and then the over texting and then explanation and the dramatics and the hysterics. And it's like, not everybody can handle that. Now, I'm not saying anybody's right or wrong.

• 21:08Sabrina Zohar?

  Maybe they really are conflict avoidant. Maybe everything has been fine and this just triggered something, right? I'm playing devil's advocate. I'm giving you multiple different scenarios because I don't know. You know, it's 140 characters or less. So the first thing I need you to do, like if we want to talk about the, how do I stop? At first you need to recognize that you're trying to get certainty from someone who is not offering that certainty. I don't know if they I've told you anything prior to this? I don't know if they've set a boundary or if they're just straight up being like, can't handle this. But the reality is, why do you think you guys found each other? You found in them the fact that like, they're a little bit more distant and aloof and maybe not as vulnerable in their emotions. And it's like, ooh, that will trigger any feelings of feeling too much. And be like, ooh, wow, that's sexy. They're mysterious. They go to you because they're like, wow, she can express herself. She's expressive. She's emotive.

• 21:53Sabrina Zohar?

  That's, I love that. But then the trauma and the triggers end up flaring each other. So the first thing that we need to do is like, one, we gotta regulate your nervous system. Because what's happening is you're trying to seek safety through a dysregulated nervous system. It is not gonna help. And what I did, like, I would go for a walk. I would text a friend. Like, I was a big on setting a rule. Like, I get one text response, that's it. If, obviously, it needs more than that, maybe two or three total. It depends on what you're saying. But for the most part, it's like, because the reason I say one text response is because when you're manic, you'll have 80. When you sit down, you've regulated, you're back in your body. You have to remember, no one, you don't owe anybody a response in any specific timeframe. And that's something that I think, I'm probably gonna get held out for saying this, but I don't really give a shit. No one is owed your time and a response, and you are not owed anybody's

• 22:39Sabrina Zohar?

  response in a specific timeframe. Some people need time to process. Some people are working, are doing things, are not by their phone. And just because you deem that you deserve a response, then doesn't mean that they owe that to you. I'm not saying that within a couple of hours or within a little bit of time, that they can say, hey, I will get back to you. Or, hey, just stepped out of a meeting. Or, hey, I need a minute to think about this. I will get back to you tomorrow. But you're allowed to put your phone down and say, I'm gonna go for a walk right now before I even respond to this person because I'm gonna rip their fucking head off. But instead, I'm gonna regulate. Then I can come back from a place of choice. That's also why I'm like, stop having this shit via text. But anyways, here we are. We're gonna have these conversations via text, apparently, because here we are. So the next thing is, when you want to text, write it in your notes first.

• 23:23Sabrina Zohar?

  But I cannot, I have my breakup texts with Ryan in my notes. Because I wasn't sure. I wasn't sure. I was tricking myself. And then I want you to ask yourself, what am I really trying to get from this text? Typically speaking, it's reassurance. That comes from you. Because if you're like, well, I wanna know that they're still here. Okay, well, me trying to get that validation from them isn't gonna change the fact that I'm scared that they might leave me. Is it really about the fact that I need to find out that they're not gonna leave, or is it about the fact that I'm uncomfortable with that space in silence? Start to get curious. Alright, next question. Is it breadcrumbing if I ask them questions and they don't reciprocate? It might not necessarily be breadcrumbing, because we don't know how this person, I have met so many people, it doesn't, not just men, right, women as well, that don't ask any questions back. It's kinda wild to me. That doesn't necessarily mean they're breadcrumbing

• 24:05Sabrina Zohar?

  you. Now, it could mean that it doesn't work for you. That's it. Because then you can stop questioning, asking questions to create the engagement. Then, if they don't match that, they don't reciprocate, right, and they don't try to pick back up on it, there's your fucking answer. There's your answer. So I would notice when you're doing that emotional labor and you're trying to overperform to keep it going. And I used to do that with guys, because I'd romanticize their in- unavailability. I would romanticize and be like, oh, he's just super quiet and mysterious and he, I just need to get that out of it. It's like, no, that person wasn't reciprocating and it wasn't that interesting. You don't need to elevate it. You could be in that same level of like, okay, well, if they're not gonna ask me any questions, and we're just sitting here, it's like, then fine. I've done that to Ryan, where I'll be like, how does that feel? And he'll look at me and, whoa? And I'm like, I've asked you seven questions in a row and you haven't asked me one. How does it feel to now sit in silence where you don't feel like someone's getting interested in you?

• 24:50Sabrina Zohar?

  Use the responses as their information, not as a problem to stuff. And then the last question, how can I stop text bombardment and over explaining to my boyfriend? Well, you're using text to regulate your nervous system instead of actually regulating it. It's kind of back to that question we answered before. I gotta do something for you. Maybe that means taking a couple of deep breaths. And just asking, like, am I texting to connect or to calm my anxiety? If it's anxiety, literally, I want you to do anything else for 10 minutes. Then, because if you do text, again, one text per person, what per person, per message, but per person, in that example. So, some common examples here might be that you send multiple texts when they don't respond quickly. You're gonna over explain after conflict or any misunderstanding. You're constantly follow up on plans repeatedly because you're scared they're gonna forget. You're apologizing excessively for normal behavior. Again, before sending any of that, I want you

• 25:34Sabrina Zohar?

  to say, am I sending this to connect or to manage my own anxiety? Okay, second behavior, withdrawing and testing, which I was the queen of. The pattern here is, when you feel insecure, you pull away to see if they will pursue you. And if they care, they'll come after you. And if they don't chase, it proves, see, look, I knew it, they don't care. That's why when it's like, they always come back, all of a sudden, we're like, see, that's because they care. And it's like, no, maybe it's also just because you're easy access. Sorry. They don't always come back. So the science, protest through withdrawal, attachment systems use distance to signal distress. So there's something called the testing theory. People unconsciously test partners to confirm their fears, and then you have self fulfilling prophecy. Withdrawing often pushes away the very people you want to pursue you. And then what ends up happening? And then you're a self fulfilling prophecy. So some questions I got, I freeze one, get triggered,

• 26:18Sabrina Zohar?

  and just cut contact, allowing them to assume whatever they want. How do I stop? Well, your nervous system is going into a freeze mode. And so I'm glad you guys ask these questions because it shows that no one's a bad person. So when you feel the urge to disappear, I need you to maybe even set a timer for 20 minutes and tell them, I need some time to process this. Can we talk in 20? I'm literally setting a timer. You don't have to set a timer if you don't want to. Give somebody a clear rap of like, I need 30 minutes. I need 20 minutes. Can I call you in an hour? Like, please just give me a minute. Then what are you going to do with that time? Use that time to figure out what you're actually feeling, not what you think they did wrong, or what you think that you are doing wrong. I want you to tap into like, well, what's coming up for me? I'm feeling like I'm not really feeling heard. Okay, it's not about them doing anything wrong. It's I don't really necessarily feel like I'm heard. Or I feel like I'm being villainized.

• 27:03Sabrina Zohar?

  I don't feel like you're literally listening to me. Then you come back with that. I felt sad when you said this. Can we talk about it? We have to find ways because the whole thing is, it's when you're disconnected, it's coming back to connection. And again, take the time you need. It might be a day, and then that day turns into half a day. And then the half a day turns into an hour. And then hour turns into 20 minutes. And then you don't need the time. Ryan and I used to need more time, and now we don't. Now we're able to talk about things, five, 10 minutes. Right? Like, I've gotten upset. I've walked upstairs, 10 minutes later, he comes up. And you know what? That was me doing protest behavior. I did, I stormed off. I said, fine, fuck it. And I stormed off, and he came up, and he was like, I felt very abandoned then. And I said, I was like, I was hoping you were going to come after me. I wanted you to come and reassure me. It's very human. You're also dealing with shit. So another question was how to cope with ghosting in silence and avoidance. Well, when someone withdraws,

• 27:48Sabrina Zohar?

  your impulse is going to be to pursue. So the first thing I want you to do is recognize their withdrawal might be their protest behavior, and maybe not even about you. Or maybe it's just that they're not feeling it. They don't know how to deal with conflict. Right? You see how the why doesn't really matter? When we intellectualize, you're not actually able to implement. So why? I mean, I don't think you need to figure out the why. Give them the space without it meaning anything about your work. You don't have to make it mean anything about you. You get to choose that. You fill in the blanks. No one came to you and was like, I'm ghosting you, by the way, because you're a piece of shit and you're not good enough. Thanks so much. Very rarely is that the case. It's usually because they're like, oh, I don't know. I just wasn't feeling it. Or I'm scared to, I don't know. I don't know how to say it. I can't tell you how many times people are like, ghosting is easier. And you're like, yeah, okay. And now I want you to focus on what you can control. Your own response, not trying to manage their emotions. You cannot try to do that.

• 28:33Sabrina Zohar?

  And ways that this starts to look, you go silent after you get feel hurt. I do that all the time. Not responding to texts to see if they care. Canceling plans to test their reaction and be like, are they actually going to give a shit? Emotional unavailability after intimacy. I want you to start to ask yourself, am I pulling away to protect myself or to get their attention? Doesn't matter where you land.

• 28:52Speaker 00

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• 29:22Sabrina Zohar?

  All right, the next one. Emotional escalation and getting bigger. So the pattern here is when feeling unhurt or unseen, I what? Is that not me or anything? You'll escalate emotionally. Like you cry harder, you get angry, you become more dramatic to get their attention and care. How many times when it's like, you know, you don't see how sad I am? And it's like, they see it. They don't know what to do with it. You don't have to keep convincing everyone around that you're hurt. You're allowed to be hurt. You don't have to convince other people of it. So how it shows up in the different attachment styles. Anxious folks get bigger with emotions. They get more dramatic. Their needs become more visible. Avoidant shut down then explodes when overwhelmed. That's why sometimes you might see the avoidant go like after a while, like pop off because then when they get like so overwhelmed, they just freak out. And then the disorganized is unpredictable emotional responses that they can't regulate as consistently.

• 30:07Sabrina Zohar?

  So some of the questions you guys asked. Which I like the structure. It's fun. I'm able to give you some knowledge and then some questions. What to do when they get triggered by your protest behaviors? Well, now you're in a trigger cycle. So now we're, you see how it's like trigger and trigger and trigger and trigger. So the first thing, take responsibility for your part without defending it. I realize my behavior triggered you. That wasn't my intention. Then you can, right? So I realize that when I got really big, that triggered that you got really small. And I'm so sorry, that wasn't my intention. I didn't mean to scream at you. Then you can say, what do you need to feel safe? It's really important because you're part, both of you guys are deserving and worthy of feeling safe. Maybe it's, I realized when I shut down, that triggered you to feel abandoned and that wasn't my intention. And then I want you to now commit to using different strategies when you feel that way again. Right?

• 30:52Sabrina Zohar?

  Okay. I'm scared I'm going to sabotage something amazing just because I'm anxious. Help! Well, your fear of sabotage is actually going to cause you to sabotage. That's protection. So the first thing that we want to look at is, what are you scared of happening? We have to start to look at, and it's like, what is this quote-unquote sabotage behavior? How do you think it's trying to protect you? And you might say, it's not. Okay, it's maladaptive. How do you think it's trying to protect you? Well, I act out big because I'm scared they're gonna leave me. Okay, so you think that this is how you're going to keep them. Okay, that's okay. And so maybe a way that you can talk to them is, like, tell them directly, I really like you and I'm scared that I'm gonna fuck this up. And if they're like, okay, like, I've told that to Ryan, where he even told me that. He was like, I'm crazy about you, and he was like, but I'm scared when you really get to know me, you're gonna leave me. And I was like, can you tell me more? And then maybe you can ask for what you need instead of testing them of like, I don't need to wait to see if you're gonna text me.

• 31:35Sabrina Zohar?

  I would love for us to just have a daily phone call to network for you. Someone that cares for you and who's right for you can handle the fact that you're a human. But you don't need to start fucking picking fights when shit feels good because you're like, oh, I wanna test this fucking connection. You don't have to create jealousy scenarios of like, oh, that guy thinks I'm attractive, or, you know, I had somebody write in, like, or we entered on in the trenches, like baiting someone of being like, they're really pretty, they're really pretty, and then when the person says, like, they're pretty, you're like, what? How dare you? And it's like, ugh, y'all, that's really fucking exhausting. You don't need to bring up past issues that are unrelated to conflict. You always do this. Last week you did this. You're like, what the fuck? What does this have to do with it? And do not make threats to leave to see their reaction. I used to do that all the time. Fine, I'm done. I'll leave. I'll go.

• 32:20Sabrina Zohar?

  And then they're like, okay, see ya. I want you to ask, am I trying to get reassurance or am I trying to create drama that feels like connection? And then let's go into our last one, people pleasing or over-functioning, which we are all been there, done that. When you feel insecure, you become hyper accommodating. So you're going to manage their emotions, you're anticipating their needs, and you're being perfect to avoid abandonment. Everything is the cool girl, right? I'm the cool girl or guy. So the FON response, as you guys know, trauma response, where you avoid conflict by being useful. My mama even used to say, like, she would come and she'd be like, what can I do? I want to be able to give back. And I'm like, how about you just hear? You don't have to be useful. So in codependency research, taking responsibility for others' emotions to feel safe in relationship is codependent. And then we have something called emotional labor. It's over-functioning prevents authentic relationship dynamics because it's not balanced, it's not equal.

• 33:05Sabrina Zohar?

  One person's doing everything. So someone asked, I would like someone that reassures me when I need or when I did a mistake, that takes the load off me. Yeah, but you want them to manage your emotional regulation and start learning to self-soothe. I'm sorry, but that's a parent-child dynamic instead of a partnership. It is not someone else's job to tell you, you did a good job. You're a good girl or boy. You did okay. I'm sorry, but like, that's, you need to learn how to emotionally regulate. And that's okay, right? That's why we have the, well, we had the course, right? By the time this comes out, it's gone. That's why we're going to have more courses. But the foundation course goes over this. And that's why I have a free guide in the bio, and I have episodes on regulation. Like, it's a matter of, at this point, if you guys are going to use it. At the end of the day, listening to every podcast isn't what's going to change this. What's going to change this is you making changes in your life and you making choices.

• 33:50Sabrina Zohar?

  We'll start with regulating. Okay, another question, how to communicate instead when you feel you're being too much because of your issues? Again, you're trying to manage their perception of you instead of addressing the actual needs. People pleasing makes you feel like you're, like, you need to be less because it's also being less authentic. And if somebody, if you're feeling, oh, I'm always too much, like, that's projecting onto them. You're projecting onto them how you're feeling internally. But you being too much, let them tell you that. Let this person tell you, hey, what you're asking me is too much. Your request is too much. Talk about it. Hey, are you okay with the way that I'm coming up? Get curious and talk about them. Some examples of this are always being available even when it's inconvenient, right? The, you're, this person's like, "Hey, you up?" And you're like, "Yeah, I'm on my way." And it's like, you didn't want to get out of bed and go. Suppressing your needs to avoid conflict.

• 34:34Sabrina Zohar?

  "No, I don't want to say anything. I don't want to be too much. I'll just, it's fine. It's fine. I'll just go." Apologizing for having emotions, or managing their mood at the expense of yours. That's what I mean by trying to manage the external so that you don't have to deal with the internal. Am I giving from love or from fear of abandonment? I want you to start to ask that. Because what happens is, we get into this protest behavior cycle that can become quite vicious, and they start to feed on each other. So at first, you might feel insecure, which we all do, but then you try to protest. Then you get negative response. Then you feel even more secure. Then you escalate protest behavior. So maybe an example might be like, you feel really disconnected, so you send multiple texts. Then they pull away. Then you feel even more disconnected. Then you send even more texts. Each one, each protest behavior confirms the fear that you were trying to solve.

• 35:17Sabrina Zohar?

  And honestly, like we talked about earlier with intermittent reinforcement, it becomes an addiction. Because sometimes those protest behaviors work. They respond, they chase, they give back, so you'll keep doing it. And that schedule, that reward schedule, makes the behaviors highly addictive. It's like gambling. It truly is like gambling. But at the end of the day, you're not broken. You're speaking a different emotional language than the other person that you're trying to reach. The problem isn't that you have needs and we need to let go of that. It's that you're using strategies from when you were powerless to get your fucking needs met. It's not an issue of having them. But these can backfire. They create what you fear. When you pursue, you create the distance you're trying to close. When you withdraw, you create the abandonment you're trying to avoid. When you fucking test somebody, you create the instability you're trying to eliminate.

• 36:00Sabrina Zohar?

  And when you people please, you create an authenticity that makes love feel fake. You're creating the very thing you're scared of doing. That's why I say self-tapatage is really just self-protection. Protest behaviors, they create anxious, kind of needy energy, and people can fucking pick up on that. And then they start responding to their energy instead of your actual words and your, what you're coming with. The reality here is, baby, the person who's worried about being too much usually isn't giving themselves what they need. You're trying to get what you need from what you won't give yourself. And I want that to sit in. What can you give? So if you want to start to break the pattern, let's fucking go. First thing I want you to do is the pause protocol. I need you to notice the urge to that you want to protest before you act on it. Then name the feeling, right? I'm feeling disconnected. I'm feeling scared. I'm feeling abandoned. We know. Name it, detain it.

• 36:45Sabrina Zohar?

  Then you can start to go, what do I actually need right now? Or, right, what protest behavior feels more urgent? And then you can choose either direct communication, self-soothing, instead of protesting. Maybe you can also share that with your partner. Instead of protesting, like, I'm feeling disconnected from you. When you're available, I'd love to talk. Instead of withdrawing from this person, I'm feeling really hurt about earlier. Can we talk about this later when you have time? Instead of testing, like, I'm feeling really insecure about us. Can you help me understand where we are? And instead of people pleasing, I need to be honest with how I'm feeling instead of just being agreeable. Like, can I share with what's coming up with me? That's really beautiful. When you're really secure, it's not the absence of triggers. That's not secure. It's catching yourself faster. It's being able to expand your window of tolerance. It's not perfect. You're repairing when you slip into old patterns. Hi, I'm a human. I do that, too. It's not that you're never insecure.

• 37:30Sabrina Zohar?

  You express your needs directly, but you don't use protest. And I know, it can feel really scary and overwhelming and all this. But you, motherfucker, you got this. You got this. Because now, where are we gonna go? We're gonna build into our last episode of the series of how do you actually break free? You understand the whole system. And so now, we're gonna talk about how do you interrupt it and build something a little bit better? Which is kinda what the book is gonna be doing, but even more, even more. That's why I have to be cognizant of my episodes to not cannibalize. But I'd be curious, drop it in the comments, what your protest behavior was. Was it withdrawing? Was it pursuing? Was it testing? Was it people pleasing? Let's normalize this so that we don't feel all like we're just these insecure, damaged, flawed goods, that we are humans, that we are messy, that we are complicated, that we have all of these things going on, and that that's totally normal and okay.

• 38:15Sabrina Zohar?

  You're allowed to, because you're a person. And guys, as always, if you need anything, you know, everything's on the link in show notes. You can work one-on-one, ask a question, dating profile audit. Send in questions or profiles, if you want it, for free, done on the show, in the trenches, at sabrina zohard.com. That is just to preface, that is not for anything but just sending in for the podcast. If you ask a question, it might be on the podcast, but it won't be answered with an email back. And if you guys need anything, I am always here. Everything's at sabrina zohar dot com or the link in show notes. And I'm just grateful for you guys. I am jazzed. I'm stoked to keep it going. We're going to evolve. We're going to grow. We're going to just keep the party alive. And it's all thanks to you guys. So as always, don't forget, rate, review the show, subscribe, follow along wherever. Come follows on the socials, sabrina.zohar on TikTok, if it's still around.

• 38:59Sabrina Zohar?

  The Sabrina Zohar Show on Instagram or TikTok. And for my LA babes, if you stayed around this long, we're starting to plan a show. So I'm going to do some live events. And I know, I know, I know, worldwide. I promise you, I hear you, I hear you. I'm just starting in one city to workshop some material to kind of perfect what it is that I want to do and then take it out. So stay tuned, keep along. If you follow on the email list or the socials, you'll get first access to all of that. And I'm talking like 50 to 100 people, very intimate, very small at first. So really excited. And we're planning all this now, so stay tuned, babes. But I'm just, thank you. Thank you for allowing me to show up every day. Thank you for allowing me to be vulnerable. And thank you for listening to all the stuff I go through and caring because it really is how we can grow this community and continue to be there for each other. Without further ado, that's not it.

• 39:44Sabrina Zohar?

  So babies, until next time.

• 39:50Speaker 00

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• 39:59Speaker 00

  We can help you sell, market, and hire in one place. We cannot help you be in three places at once. And while we can't help you organize your calendar, LinkedIn can help you land more clients so you have a calendar to organize. Grow your small business on LinkedIn. Learn more at linkedin.com/smallbusiness.

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