Russ ON: How to Change Your Self-Critical Mindset & The Truth Behind the Emotional Struggles of Men

Have you tirelessly pursued a dream, only to discover an underlying emptiness even after achieving it? Many have experienced this paradox of achieving a dream, yet still feeling unfulfilled. It's a common experience where the pursuit of a goal doesn't always lead to lasting contentment. Today, we have a special guest who's been on the podcast before - multi-platinum rapper, singer-songwriter, producer, and best-selling author - Russ. Russ talks to us about his successful music career and the highs and lows that come with fame and excess. He shares his self-development journey and the realizations he's come to by facing his emotions and going to therapy. Russ' fifth studio album SANTIAGO was released on August 18th, 2023. In our quest for understanding, we shatter the myth of perfectionism, revealing its often-hidden undercurrents and the misconceptions around seeking help. We will examine the roles we play in the lives of others and the profound effects of vulnerability on our connections, the profound shift in mindset that dismantles rigidity and nurtures flexibility, and the role of emotional suppression in men's lives. Intriguing conversations lead us to the heart of healthy internal dialogue, providing tools to process thoughts and emotions while nurturing a sense of self-awareness. We contemplate the intricate relationship between our identities and the roles we assume, and the transformative effects of releasing these roles when they no longer serve us. In this interview, you will learn: The emotional struggles of men The misconceptions about being a perfectionist How to have a healthy dialogue with yourself How to get around destructive habits How evolution is part of personal growth How to become flexible in life We invite you to join us on this deep exploration of self, witnessing the power of embracing authenticity and confronting insecurities head-on. With Love and Gratitude, Jay Shetty What We Discuss: 00:00 Intro 00:19 What happens when you keep chasing after something you thought you wanted but you still feel empty? 04:46 Men have become professionals in masking their emotions. What happens when it becomes too much? 08:43 What do men struggle with the most? How are they coping with it? 11:27 The misconception about being a perfectionist and how help is being coded as a form of criticism 14:26 What role do you play in other people’s lives? 16:15 Why are men afraid to show vulnerability to others, especially around women? 19:43 Everyone is at a different place in their journey, wherever you maybe right now is fine 22:57 Stop chasing approval and validation from other people 31:22 What are the practices you’re doing to validate yourself? 34:14 Healthy internal dialogue with yourself can help you process the thoughts in your mind 38:39 If your identity is based on the role you play, what happens when you can longer play that role? 39:49 What does growing up and then growing down mean? 40:58 “I don’t like myself.” Have you felt this before? 42:27 Why does the rejection of your insecurities lead to destructive habits? 45:51 What insecurity have you been holding onto? 48:00 If you can talk to your younger self now, what do you need to hear? 52:07 If you still carry the same beliefs from your younger self after learning so a lot of things then you’re not growing 56:29 The downside of having the mentality that you’re always right 58:41 The shift in mindset that can help you remove rigidity and become more flexible 01:04:01 This version of yourself that has not been shown to the world 01:06:17 Do you create a false sense of safety and security in your life? 01:11:09 Creating music after a book and the message it portrays Episode Resources: Russ | YouTube Russ | Instagram Russ | Facebook Russ | TikTok Russ | Website See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

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• 0:30Jay Shetty?

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• 1:15Jay Shetty?

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• 1:59Jay Shetty?

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• 2:18Speaker 02

  When you get everything you thought you wanted and you still feel empty, you realize, wow, that was not what I was supposed to be chasing.

• 2:25Speaker 03

  This is one of the most remarkable, amazing stories in hip hop.

• 2:29Speaker 02

  Russ! I do whatever I want, whenever I want, I love it.

• 2:34Speaker 02

  I thought, I'm never gonna get depressed. What does that even mean? I don't need any of y'all. Look, uh. And it's like, deep down, you wanted everyone, though. How strong of a man are you if you're scared to face yourself? Straight up.

• 2:48Jay Shetty?

  Before we jump into this episode, I'd like to invite you to join this community, to hear more interviews that will help you become happier, healthier, and more healed. All I want you to do is click on the subscribe button. I love your support. It's incredible to see all your comments, and we're just getting started. I can't wait to go on this journey with you. Thank you so much for subscribing. It means the world to me.

• 3:10Speaker 00

  The bestselling author and host.

• 3:11Speaker 03

  The number one health and wellness podcast. On Purpose with Jay Shetty.

• 3:17Jay Shetty?

  Hey, everyone. Welcome back to On Purpose, the number one health podcast in the world. Thanks to each and every one of you that come back every week to listen, learn, and grow. Our mission and community is all about making the world happier, healthier, and more healed. And today's guest is someone who's a favorite of yours, of the community. He came on once before. You loved it. The clips from that episode are going viral every week on TikTok. We can't keep up with it. We just keep sending stuff to each other. I've been so excited for this moment to have him back on the show, because when I have an instant connection with someone where you feel like you get along, you vibe, it's so rare that you want to make it happen again and again. We waited like two to three years, but here we are. I'm welcoming back the one and only Russ.

• 3:58Jay Shetty?

  Russ is a 30-year-old multi-platinum rapper, singer, songwriter, producer, bestselling author. Russ proved that he didn't need a major label to surpass over 10 billion streams on Spotify and Apple Music. Get on Forbes 2019 30 Under 30 and make the Forbes Cash Kings at number 20 for most earned, sell out arenas across the US and around the globe, and become one of the most popular engaged rappers and thought leaders in the world right now. If you haven't read it already, we talked about this last time. Russ's self-help book, It's All In Your Head, I highly recommend. And now we're talking about his new album, which is out now called Santiago. Please welcome to the show the one and only Russ.

• 4:41Speaker 02

  Wow.

• 4:42Jay Shetty?

  What an intro.

• 4:43Speaker 02

  What's going on?

• 4:43Jay Shetty?

  Dude, man, you had to do all of that stuff.

• 4:45Speaker 02

  It's such an interesting thing, hearing like intros like that. I guess it snaps me into like being seven and being 19 when all this was still just like a complete fantasy. It's hard to feel it. It's hard to feel the success of it. And this is what I've like, we're just gonna dive right in. But it's hard to feel the success of it because a lot of me struggles with like just not feeling good enough for myself. So like, none of it registers, you know? And that's what I've been working on. And that's kind of what Santiago addresses a lot is sort of this like, yeah, made the Forbes list and Plax, but it didn't move the needle, you know?

• 5:25Jay Shetty?

  Yeah. It's hard. How do you go about that? I mean, like, you, I mean, you dived in, so don't blame me now.

• 5:30Speaker 02

  Yeah, go ahead.

• 5:31Jay Shetty?

  You know, when you think about the idea of being enough for yourself, and how do you even start to comprehend what that even means? Because I think, as you were saying, when you're young,

• 5:44Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 5:45Jay Shetty?

  being enough just means what being enough means to the world. Like, you're like, oh, if I get those sneakers, then I'll be enough. Cause my friends will think I'm cool. Or if you're into academics, you'll be like, oh, if I get this grade, my parents will think that I made it. And then all of a sudden, none of those things add up. So how do you even go about thinking about what being enough means, especially in a culture that's comparing and always putting you up against other people?

• 6:08Speaker 02

  Yeah, it's so hard for me because I think it does start in childhood. And I think it started with, you know, wanting to meet the standard that my dad set. And, you know, my dad, who I love him, and disclaimer before like this interview goes more, it's like, I love my parents and they have done, I think, a great job and I don't blame them for anything. Um, there's just realities that have happened that like, you know, there's experiences that I have that I now have to deal with and learn from, et cetera. But my dad's standard was perfection a lot of times, you know? And he was very critical. And so for me, you know, his metric.

• 6:50Speaker 02

  It was impossible to me. I ended up adopting it as my own, you know? And so the inner voice for a long time, it was my dad's inner voice of, you know, that's not good enough. Nah, you know, you got a ninety-two on the test. If you would have studied, you got a hundred, but it's still an A. But, you know, little things like that or showing him music early on and career stuff and just in general, right? And but that inner voice that used to be his became my own inner voice. So now like it it becomes this sort of inner critic that when I go platinum, it's like it doesn't do it. Maybe double platinum will, maybe triple. Oh, you how much money did you make? Ten? Oh, maybe eleven million will make you feel good. And so you keep chasing the next thing, thinking that's what's going to make you feel good about

• 7:35Speaker 02

  yourself. And I think to reference like the Rick Rubin interview, I think he mentioned something where it's like you get the number one album, you get all this stuff and it doesn't do what you wanted it to do and you feel emptier than ever. And I think that's kind of the place I got to was I got the money, the house, the this and whatever. And that's how you know there's really something missing. Because how'd you get all that and you still don't feel good? And it's a really empty feeling because most people in the world think that the reason why they're not happy and not feeling enough is all these things that they'll probably never get. And it's kind of this beautiful,

• 8:14Speaker 02

  blissfully ignorant place to live because you just get to like always have this idea that nah, I know like I'm going to keep going towards this and I know this is what's going to give me happiness, even though you'll probably never get it, right? Most people won't ever see a million dollars or whatever. But for the people who get in, but and I want no sympathy for like, oh, we don't feel bad for you. You're a millionaire. Get over it. But it's like when you get everything you thought you wanted and you still feel empty, you realize that wow, that was not what I was supposed to be chasing. And there's a bigger hole here and now I need to grow down, you know? And I need to look internal because external didn't do it. And that's what Oasis is all about on the album, right? Yeah. Oasis is the closest track to that feeling or?

• 8:57Speaker 02

  So Oasis was sort of this fool's paradise is what the idea behind that song was. It was like I got the house, the life, everything on surface looked like, okay, you did it. And

• 9:11Speaker 02

  Internally, though, I was still a mess. I was joking with you, you know, off camera like last time we talked, you know, I was thirty pounds overweight. It was just proportioned nicely, so it didn't, it wasn't, it wasn't like too big in any one place. But I was thirty pounds overweight. I was drinking too much. I was eating too much. I had no discipline over my thoughts, my eating habits. I had no discipline over my sexual energy, things like that. So it was really like I was a glutton, you know? But the way that is dressed up sometimes, you're a rock star. You're a king, you know? And so Oasis is about on surface, yeah, you're eating good, you're, you know, you're, you're gaining weight, but because you're getting money and you're eating good and you're sleeping with random women and

• 9:56Speaker 02

  drinking, but it's all good because, look, another plaque just came in and more money came in, another sold out show. Um, and it was sort of poking, like that whole song is sort of like poking fun at me because I'm in my little oasis. I'm distracted by like, look at my house, look at my life, what like?

• 10:12Jay Shetty?

  I love what you just said. You're like, you're distracted.

• 10:15Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 10:15Jay Shetty?

  By the gold.

• 10:17Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 10:17Jay Shetty?

  And you're distracted by the shining lights and the bright things and the plaques.

• 10:22Speaker 02

  Mm hmm.

• 10:22Jay Shetty?

  When you're that distracted, how do you open up your eyes? Like, how do you even get to a point now where you're able to look back and go, I was distracted. Now I'm a bit more awake and I'm working on this stuff. Because I can imagine that it gets so loud. You're a rock star. You're a king. You're all these things. And then all of a sudden, you've got to kind of like quiet that down and go, but I'm still not happy. How do you get that breakthrough? Because I feel like we're all the best at setting ourselves up for failure.

• 10:48Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 10:48Jay Shetty?

  And we're all the best at avoiding advice when it's good. Like, I know when I'm wrong, because when my wife says something and I know she's right.

• 10:57Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 10:57Jay Shetty?

  And I don't want to admit it.

• 10:59Speaker 02

  Right.

• 10:59Jay Shetty?

  Because I know she's right. And that's what, but it's that awareness piece is so hard.

• 11:04Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 11:04Jay Shetty?

  How, how did you, what was the moment for you? Because you are killing it. You're still killing it.

• 11:09Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 11:09Jay Shetty?

  You looked well then to me. You looked well.

• 11:11Speaker 02

  Thank you.

• 11:11Jay Shetty?

  Today, like you look great, like, right? So, and, and I really enjoyed your company last time and I'm enjoying your company this time. So externally.

• 11:19Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 11:20Jay Shetty?

  You could argue, well, what's going on?

• 11:22Speaker 02

  Well, as men, we get good at masking it.

• 11:24Jay Shetty?

  Yeah.

• 11:24Speaker 02

  That's part of like, you know, I have a long answer for this, but um.

• 11:28Jay Shetty?

  Go on, go for it.

• 11:29Speaker 02

  First of all, therapy is kind of what like. Not woke me up, but it helped. But something I learned in therapy is this idea that, you know, society measures a man based off of how much they can carry, how far they can carry it, and how alone they can carry it. And I think for a lot of men, we have become professional hiders of our pain. And so while I was quote unquote, distracted, what woke me up to what was going on was that there was psychological warfare and internal chaos constantly anyway, you know, I like, I just kept pushing it down, pushing it down. But I knew it was there because I was pushing it down. And it just got to a

• 12:11Speaker 02

  point where I just had a breakdown one day. It just, you push it down enough, and at some point, you can't push it anymore. And it, you know, overflows in it. And what I learned is, when you're burying it, burying it, burying it, when it does finally just explode, it's always going to be at the worst time. And that time came right before a European tour that I had scheduled, and I had to cancel it because I was like, my body and spirit and mind just shut down. I just couldn't even do it. I couldn't even like, go through the motions of acting like I could perform. And, you know, through therapy and talking every week, you know, and really, really being vulnerable and being honest with my therapist, which I couldn't

• 12:52Speaker 02

  wait for, like, getting a therapist has been at the top of my to do list for like, four years. And I just never did, I never got around to it because I just always, once again, was like, do I really need one? Look how good my life is? Like, no, I think I'm dripping. But it just got to this point, man, where I was like, I need to talk to someone because I feel like I'm going insane. It's just been so helpful because I'm like, I want to figure out what's going on internally. So it's like, well, I don't know how to fix this. So let's act like it doesn't exist, you know?

• 13:20Jay Shetty?

  I'm so glad you raised this because I've been looking for the person, I'm about to introduce the conversation, that I've been trying to find the right person to have it with.

• 13:27Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 13:28Jay Shetty?

  And it just clicked to me in this moment that you're that person.

• 13:30Speaker 02

  Come on.

• 13:31Jay Shetty?

  Like, literally. And I think it's such an important conversation that

• 13:36Jay Shetty?

  I've been trying to navigate, I have it offline a lot, but I haven't really had it online. So this will be the first time that I talk about it here, but it's like, you just raised that, as a man especially, we're good at masking it.

• 13:48Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 13:49Jay Shetty?

  And I think men in today's society, being a man in today's society is such an interesting time. And you come across to me as, you know, like you're, and you can describe in your own sense, but you're a confident man. You know, you're a man's man, I'd say as well, like, I don't know how you see yourself. That's why I don't know how you see yourself, I was gonna ask you.

• 14:09Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 14:10Jay Shetty?

  Because you so confidently are like, hey, man, I need to find help, I went to therapy.

• 14:15Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 14:15Jay Shetty?

  But at the same time, you're a rapper on stage who's like dropping like the best bars. And so I'm like, when you look at that paradox, I love that. Because I'm thinking about, what is it that you think men are struggling with most? And maybe it's even for your own friends, the people you hang out with, like, what do you think men are struggling with in today's society? Because I don't feel we talk about that enough with like what they're struggling with.

• 14:36Speaker 02

  Yeah, I think, I mean, so much, but I think, I think men are struggling with being in tune with their own emotions and feeling safe and feeling like they have permission from themselves to feel what they're feeling. Because society has told them, get over it, effectively, you know? And I think for me, that's what I did for the, you know, for the most part. And I think my generation, let alone like generations before me, like, we all saw our dads probably just like, get over it and figure it out and, you know, brush, brush the dirt off and keep going.

• 15:17Speaker 02

  And that's what I did and I would just put little trickles of what I was feeling in the music. Like, it's so funny, you know, when I had that breakdown, when I finally just was honest with myself and got a therapist. I would go back and listen to old songs, like songs like "Nobody Knows" or songs like "All To You" and it's like, these were like such cries for help that I think made me feel more insane because I would put them out and they just became songs, you know? And it's sort of downplayed what was really going on because it's like, I take a very vulnerable, real emotion of sadness and pain and confusion and feeling lost and don't know what to do, and turn it into two and a half minutes of music

• 15:59Speaker 02

  and now it just becomes numbers on a screen and streams and how loud is it at the shows? And I forget, fans forget, people forget, but most importantly, I forget that, oh no, like this was like really what I was going to. This isn't just like a lullaby.

• 16:13Jay Shetty?

  Yeah, I think you're right. I feel like when I talk to people, I feel like men are feeling a lot of pressure to be a lot of things, like to be successful, to have it together, to have some emotional maturity, figure out their mental health. And again, you know, every gender has their own pressures that come with it.

• 16:33Speaker 02

  Right.

• 16:34Jay Shetty?

  But I think, I know a lot of men who feel scared to share that pressure because they feel like you said, that they shouldn't have it.

• 16:41Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 16:41Jay Shetty?

  Like they're not allowed to have that pressure. I think you're one of the few music artists that has found a way of intertwining mental health and music in a way that it's not cheesy and it's not like corny and it's not like, it comes across like, when I listen to you, I'm just like, God, that's a bar, that's like, you know, you can appreciate it just because it's good music.

• 17:00Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 17:01Jay Shetty?

  And then knowing that you have this conscious side to yourself. Was that like always at the forefront of when you got into music? Or was it something that evolved with time because of your journey? Because I think it's quite, it's quite a hard balance to talk about meaningful stuff.

• 17:14Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 17:15Jay Shetty?

  In a way that doesn't come across as cheesy and corny. So how, how have you found a way of being able to do that?

• 17:21Speaker 02

  Yeah, I think I always was looking for answers, you know? And I think I always, as a consumer of music, I always liked substance and lyrics and things that I could, you know, things that meant something, you know, things that maybe could help me. And as an artist, when I wanted to make my own, I was trying to find answers. Like, my creative side was trying to piece together these other sides of me. Like, what was going on with my family, with my friends, with my relationship, with my career? Like, the creative side of me would come in and be like, maybe this means that. Maybe what you're feeling means this. Maybe, you know, and like, like I said, there's like, all these little like, Easter eggs, I guess, throughout my catalog of me trying to figure it out.

• 18:02Speaker 02

  And so I think I was just naturally, and am naturally, a curious person and an ambitious person. And so like, ambitious in the sense that I really want to figure out what is going on with me. Like, I want to know why I think the way I think, where that came from. And I think in the past, it's funny when you're like, you're a confident man, et cetera, et cetera. I was omnipotent. And I've learned that that's not confidence, you know? That's insecurity. And, you know, I, because, I mean, this is so, so multi-layered. But it's funny, your shirt says imperfections, because it really stems from me being a perfectionist. Right? So like, me being a perfectionist, there's no room for me to not be right.

• 18:47Speaker 02

  There's no room for me to not know, like, not act like I know everything and what's going on. And I got being a perfectionist from like, the standard that my dad set, which ended up becoming my own standard. So, early on in my career, I had this omnipotence where like, I knew everything, everything I was doing was right. And I felt like I had to act like that, because if you're a perfectionist, there is no room for criticism.

• 19:09Jay Shetty?

  Hmm.

• 19:09Speaker 02

  Perfectionists are trying to run from criticism. And help is coded as criticism to a perfectionist. So I didn't want any help, and if you tried to help, I took it as a critique, and it threatened my idea of being a perfectionist.

• 19:22Jay Shetty?

  Wow.

• 19:23Speaker 02

  You know? So like, I'm trying to figure out the answer, so like...

• 19:26Jay Shetty?

  Dude, I, one thing you said to me last time, I've quoted this. So many times in interviews, when I get asked questions about like, oh, what was one of your favorite takeaways? And it's from our interview and it's, you said that when you sometimes get in the studio at that time, you were like, I get rid of all my friends.

• 19:42Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 19:42Jay Shetty?

  So I can be in there alone and make weird sounds that I wouldn't make when people are in the room, because I might be scared of what they think. And I've said that to so many people and everyone's always like quite blown away or taken aback, because I guess it's not a common thing that artists do. And, and it stayed with me for so long, but I was interested by what you just said. Like, how did your immediate, I guess your immediate circle, I'm assuming you're around people that you love. But how do you think then the wider circle responds to you saying things like, I need help, therapy is good for you, like, you know, like, do you have, do you feel like the wider circle goes automatically? Like, do you think the world's got to a place now where we're like, yes, Russ, that makes sense. You're right. Or do you still have people around you going, no, you don't need therapy, man. You just need to go smoke or blow some cash or like,

• 20:27Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 20:28Jay Shetty?

  Like, what, what, because you come from the rap music world. I wonder what do you hear?

• 20:32Speaker 02

  Um, I think my friends, like my immediate circle, my friends were all very supportive. My family was supportive as well, but they're obviously like, what's going on? Because my identity has been attached, when it comes to my family, my identity has been attached to helping them. You know, that's how I felt safe. That was the role I played. And I've never asked for help. I've never received help. I've never come off like I needed help. And so when they saw that I needed therapy, I'm cancelling tour, it's like 911 in my house, you know, as far as like my family. And, um, so they were just like really concerned. Um, but I think as far as the world's concerned, I do think the world is more open and receptive

• 21:16Speaker 02

  to the idea of men needing help. And that's okay. And even if they're not open to it, that is naturally where this is going. Like, I just feel like the pendulum has to swing at some point. And this whole idea that men have to just be like, you know, military men who show nothing, no emotions, and like, figure it out and don't ask for help and we do it ourselves, it's like, That is not sustainable, you know, it's just not. Men need to communicate and collaborate with each other and, you know, not feel so alone.

• 21:51Jay Shetty?

  How have you found the reaction to that from like straight women? Do straight women find men more or less attractive or good partners based on that kind of approach and vulnerability like?

• 22:03Speaker 02

  I think it depends on the woman. And I think a lot of times there's great women out there who will respond well to that and there's women who won't. And I think a lot of times with men, you know, they are scared to show that vulnerability because of what a lot of women have displayed, which is like, now I'm not attracted to you.

• 22:22Jay Shetty?

  That part, yeah.

• 22:22Speaker 02

  And it's like, you know, I said on, um, I said on Enough on Santiago, some women looking at you lesser if there's tears on your cheek, but if there's tears tattooed, that same girl is a freak. So they're attracted to the pain unless they hear the pain speak. So it's like, it's really interesting because when you, when you talk to, when you talk to women, when you, thank you, but it's like when you talk to women and you like kind of see where their heads at, you see that they kind of like, a lot of women want this sort of rough and rugged guy who's like, he's tough and all these things, but like you don't want him to talk about it because now he's soft. But it's like, so you want him to have some pain because that's what makes him the rough

• 23:05Speaker 02

  and rugged, you know, but you just don't want to hear about it. And so where does he go then? It's, oh, so you just want him to be quiet, but then you're wondering why he can't open up to you. Oh, well, he just doesn't open up to me. Which one is it? This isn't Build-A-Bear. You know what I mean? Like, and I feel women too, who it's like dudes want the girl who does the, that's why it's like, find someone that's compatible with you and gets you and rock out and forget about the rest.

• 23:32Jay Shetty?

  Yeah, but I love the way you just, I mean, the lyric speaks for itself, but that is summed up so well. And by the way, everyone who's listening, I'm not trying to take sides or you, you get where I'm coming from. Like, I'm just trying to come from a place of like, where are we? It's exactly what Rush just said, like, we want someone to be tough, but without the pain, without talking about the pain. And it's like, that's just not real. It doesn't exist. The idea that someone is tough. And hasn't been through pain is non-existent.

• 24:01Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 24:02Jay Shetty?

  And at some point, that person is going to need to express or connect or collaborate, as you said, either with you or other people about their pain. This also applies to women. It applies to every gender that people who've been through pain are gonna have stories to tell.

• 24:15Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 24:15Jay Shetty?

  And if you want someone tough, chances are that they've got grit and resilience because they've had massive loss in their life.

• 24:22Speaker 02

  Right.

• 24:23Jay Shetty?

  So I think you just summed up. That is exactly what I was trying to get to.

• 24:26Speaker 02

  It's like, pain is a prerequisite for being a tough, hardened man. Hardened from what? You know, hardened by what? It's pain, experience. So it's like, I just, I do think it's really interesting for the group of women who want vulnerability and openness emotionally from men, who they also almost shame into thinking that keep your pain to yourself, though.

• 24:51Jay Shetty?

  Yeah, and then there's the other side. I find I have a lot of friends who are like, my man doesn't open up, right? Like, I have a lot of friends who are like, look, I wanna be there for him. Like, I'm ready to listen to him. Like, I want him to be more open about his feelings.

• 25:03Speaker 02

  Well, cuz men are scared that if they do, oh, wow, never mind, this is unattractive.

• 25:07Jay Shetty?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 25:08Speaker 02

  Yeah, cuz it goes against what we as men have been taught makes a strong man.

• 25:12Jay Shetty?

  It's not personal to you, it's how society has set us up.

• 25:15Speaker 02

  We've been brainwashed, you know?

• 25:17Jay Shetty?

  Would you say yours is just you're so seeking the answers? Like, what gave you the courage to break that? As someone who's a stage performer, who's crushing it, who has, who has actually everything that 99% of men want.

• 25:30Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 25:31Jay Shetty?

  What gave you the, was it courage? Or was it just like, I just need this, like, you know?

• 25:34Speaker 02

  Yeah, it was out of desperation, to be honest. And also, I think like, being isolated from society plays like a part in it. Like, I'm not out and about. I'm not trying to be on the scene and make friends. I'd like, there's a part of like, being in my bubble, that sort of gives me that safety net of like, okay, if I'm vulnerable. It's like, who does that really? I'm not worried if that girl or this person is gonna feel a way. Like, it's kinda just me, you know?

• 26:01Jay Shetty?

  How do you keep that distance? I feel like people struggle with that even if they're not in entertainment.

• 26:06Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 26:07Jay Shetty?

  People get glued to social media, they get addicted. How are you keeping distance when you're so interconnected to the industry in one sense?

• 26:14Speaker 02

  I think it's also just a testament, though, to my fans. I think I've had, like, I'm really fortunate to have the kind of fans that I do that are actually supporters of me. And from the beginning, I've tried to be as authentic as I was in that moment. And I've tried to be vulnerable and introspective. And I think all of that played a part. And when I did have to cancel tour and when I have let fans in on like the journey of mental health and therapy, then being open to it because this isn't coming out of complete left field as far as the introspection and the vulnerability. I'm a vulnerable artist. I never was like that worried, like, if my male fans would be like, oh, we're out. Because it's like, y'all are singing Losing Control.

• 26:59Jay Shetty?

  Yeah.

• 27:00Speaker 02

  You know what I mean? Like, y'all are singing love songs and heartbreak songs, so, you know what I'm saying? Straight up. And it's like, everyone's at a different place in their journey and like, however, like, wherever you're at is fine.

• 27:09Jay Shetty?

  Yeah, I remember that when I was, when I was a teenager, when I thought I was, that's when I thought I was cool.

• 27:15Speaker 02

  Right.

• 27:15Jay Shetty?

  It was like, I was that kind of person that didn't understand how someone could get depressed. Because I didn't get it.

• 27:22Speaker 02

  I was like that four years ago.

• 27:23Jay Shetty?

  Totally. It's like, it's so bad. Yeah, and it's like, you have that mindset, you're like, what does that mean? Right? Like, and then you go through your own stuff and you're like, oh, I get it now. And I found that, for me, I've found that life has this really strange way of making you go through things that you thought shouldn't affect anyone.

• 27:44Speaker 02

  Right.

• 27:45Jay Shetty?

  So if you in your head have an idea of like, I don't understand that, I don't know how that affects someone.

• 27:49Speaker 02

  Life's like, just wait.

• 27:50Jay Shetty?

  Literally. And that is, that has happened to me so many times. And so whenever now I have that thought, I literally catch it and I go, let's get rid of that thought. Because let me actually try and be curious about it, rather than look at it in a condescending way.

• 28:04Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 28:04Jay Shetty?

  Because chances are, if I see it in a derogatory way or a negligent way, I'm gonna have to experience it just for life to teach me that it's real.

• 28:12Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, I got humbled for sure by, um... By that kind of thing where it's like, I realized, back to me being omnipotent, I got humbled by realizing, oh, I don't know everything. You know, because I thought I'm never gonna get depressed. What does that even mean? Like, what's that? You know, and then all of a sudden you're like, okay, so this can't happen to me.

• 28:30Jay Shetty?

  Yeah, describe that for me. What was that for you? Like, I think you hear, and I think I can ask you this because I feel like you articulate your thoughts so well and you really get in there with what's going on. Like, so many people have said this, right? This idea of like, you get the triple platinum, you get the money, and it doesn't work. Like, what actually, and I'm asking you because I feel like you'll get in there, what is actually not working about that? Like, what is it about that that doesn't help you feel better or solve the void? What is it? Why does it not work? Because I think so many people say that, but then everyone goes, oh, yeah, but you're a millionaire, you can say that.

• 29:05Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 29:05Jay Shetty?

  But let's, let's try to help people out there because I still, like, if I, if, I prefer being financially safe and successful in doing what I love. I do prefer that to when I was close to being broke and not successful in what I did.

• 29:22Speaker 02

  Right.

• 29:22Jay Shetty?

  I much prefer my life right now.

• 29:25Speaker 02

  Right.

• 29:25Jay Shetty?

  But I also know that the thing that gives, gives me deep meaning and keeps me going is my purpose that's connected to my work. Like, as long as I feel I'm positively impacting people,

• 29:35Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 29:35Jay Shetty?

  I'm serving people and I'm using my voice to make a difference in people's lives, that is what actually makes me happy.

• 29:41Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 29:42Jay Shetty?

  And then what happens around it is like the best bonus of all time.

• 29:44Speaker 02

  Yeah, see, that's a good value to have, though. Is like, in good perspective for me, the plaques and whatever, it not working is really just because you're clearly, or I was clearly seeking validation subconsciously. And I thought that becoming a big artist and plaques and all that was going to make me feel validated and make me feel like I belong and make me feel approved and make me feel good enough. And when I got all that and I still had all of those issues, that's what I mean by it not working. And I agree too, like, I prefer my life now than, than the alternative. But the hole is still there. And I think at seventeen, when I started like really going after this,

• 30:28Speaker 02

  um, I don't know if I had the depth.

• 30:33Speaker 02

  In the awareness to know what I was going after, like I'm chasing approval and validation. But when I look back, I can pinpoint certain behaviors and certain times in the studio, whatever, where I was like, where I can tell I wanted people to validate me. And I want, and I thought that rap in the industry was gonna pat me on the back. You know, and that's kind of what I talk about in I Love You Boy, which is like, you know, I just, I replaced my dad with the industry, which is really like wild, right? Because I felt like as a kid, wanting just approval of your dad as a son, you know, when you don't get it, you can feel like ostracized, kinda, and just like you don't belong,

• 31:18Speaker 02

  and you're not good enough, and all these things. And it's so strange that as a white guy, what I chose to pick to replace my dad, to give me approval, was a craft that I'm not, that I'm ostracizing off, off that. You know what I mean? It's like, it's like I picked the hardest thing to get approval from. Like, I replaced my dad with an industry and started to rap. I wanted praise and acknowledgement and picked a profession that people who look like me don't get. You know what I mean? So it's like, it was almost like, I guess if I could like analyze where my head was at when I was 17, maybe because it's like if I could get approval from this thing that I love,

• 32:00Speaker 02

  this genre, this lifestyle, this whole culture, then I'm officially approved. You know, because I know how hard it is to get approval from that. And I don't know, it just, it, but it really stems from, once again, not having the self-approval and the self-validation and thinking that someone else is gonna give it to you. And I remember talking with my therapist and he was like, uh, oh, I think I said like, "Yeah, but you know, if I do get a number one album or a number, and go number one on the Billboard Hot 100, and this person says I'm great, I'm sure like I'll feel really good." He's like, "You probably will for about 20 minutes, and then I think you'll have your lowest moment of your life." You know, and I agree.

• 32:43Speaker 02

  You know, because when I have gotten crazy accomplishments, it lasts for not that long. And I'm right back to like, I'm lower. Because that's another thing on the list that didn't do it. That's another thing that didn't fill the hole. You know, Forbes list, nope. Platinum, nope. Buy a mom house, nope. Like, none of it, you know?

• 33:03Jay Shetty?

  I see what you're saying, and I want that to register with people because what Russ is doing, which I appreciate, is clarifying the difference. It's great in and of itself.

• 33:13Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 33:13Jay Shetty?

  It just doesn't fill the hole inside. Like, it doesn't solve the fact that I don't feel better about who I am and myself. It's beautiful to buy your mom a house. That's awesome. Like, it's good for her. It's great. Like, that's not the point. The point is, it doesn't change how I feel

• 33:28Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 33:28Jay Shetty?

  about my level of self-worth and self-esteem.

• 33:32Speaker 02

  Yeah, the point is like, if I thought that buying my mom a house and making the Forbes list and going platinum was gonna make me feel validated, approved, and like, I'm good enough, then that's the mistake.

• 33:43Jay Shetty?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 33:43Speaker 02

  That's where you're gonna feel emptier than ever, because you're gonna do that, and that's not what's gonna do it.

• 33:48Jay Shetty?

  Yeah.

• 33:48Speaker 02

  You know?

• 33:48Jay Shetty?

  What's really interesting for me, listening to you, is, so I'm kind of like where you're at with your parents, where I love both my parents, and independently, and in the same way, I have a good relationship with both of them today. And, but it wasn't always, it wasn't that way externally. And with my dad especially, so my dad didn't validate me or even support me when I was growing up. Like, he would, if he turned up to a swim competition, because I used to swim a lot, when I'd look up at the stands, he'd be reading his newspaper.

• 34:20Speaker 02

  Wow, yeah.

• 34:21Jay Shetty?

  So, or if I was, I played rugby for my school, and it was one of my favorite things, that I made it onto my school's rugby team. I used to be a lot bigger growing up. And he would never turn up to support me. And so my dad wasn't there, and that was really interesting, because at the time, it made me just wanna get approval of my friends, and like, be cool and whatever, and that leads you to do all sorts of dumb stuff.

• 34:40Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 34:40Jay Shetty?

  But what it ultimately led me to was, I got to make my own rules of what success were. So not getting his ver, he never had a version of success for me.

• 34:50Speaker 02

  Right.

• 34:50Jay Shetty?

  Like, he almost didn't have like, this is what you have to be to be successful. And so I've always seen it as I just got freedom to define what kind of man I wanted to be.

• 35:01Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 35:01Jay Shetty?

  Because my dad didn't really define what kind of man he cared I would be.

• 35:04Speaker 02

  Right.

• 35:05Jay Shetty?

  And it's really interesting now, because when I look at my relationship with him today, he's more like a friend than he is my dad. Because he wasn't really fathering me. And I think where I got really lucky, like this really was, was like, one of those moments when you feel fortunate, is I projected that lack of fatherhood, fortunately, onto the monks.

• 35:26Speaker 02

  Ah.

• 35:27Jay Shetty?

  So I like, because that wasn't what I was meant to be, and I wasn't spiritual. And I really look at that as like, I didn't have any positive role models in my life. I didn't have any positive male role models in my life. And the monks were positive male role models, and I met them at when I was 18 years old.

• 35:42Speaker 02

  Which is so important, Dad.

• 35:43Jay Shetty?

  So it's so important. And the crazy thing about them is, they don't validate you.

• 35:47Speaker 02

  Wow.

• 35:48Jay Shetty?

  So it was like even more challenging, but it's like you see an amazing role model, who's showing you the right way, but is not trying to falsely validate or approve you. So you still have to figure it out.

• 36:01Speaker 02

  You still have to do it yourself.

• 36:02Jay Shetty?

  You still have to do it yourself. They're teaching you what you just said, how to do it yourself.

• 36:06Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 36:07Jay Shetty?

  Like that it's still you on your own, you've got to live in your own mind. And, and when you realize that, it's like, yeah, I live in my own mind.

• 36:13Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 36:14Jay Shetty?

  These are my thoughts.

• 36:15Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 36:15Jay Shetty?

  What you just said earlier, I either have to, I either am translating my dad's voice.

• 36:20Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 36:20Jay Shetty?

  Into becoming my voice.

• 36:22Speaker 02

  Right.

• 36:22Jay Shetty?

  Or I'm actually gonna choose what I want my thoughts to be.

• 36:26Speaker 02

  Right.

• 36:26Jay Shetty?

  And, and that's what they were training us in. So through so much fortune, I got to that point.

• 36:31Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 36:31Jay Shetty?

  And even till this day, I'm constantly just practicing that, because again, I haven't perfected it. I still get into the place where you start hearing the noise.

• 36:39Speaker 02

  It's so funny, because that's why I ended the album with just me singing, It Was You All Along.

• 36:43Jay Shetty?

  Hmm.

• 36:44Speaker 02

  Because all these things I'm chasing, validation, love, approval, patience, all of it is things that I have to give myself.

• 36:52Jay Shetty?

  Hmm.

• 36:52Speaker 02

  And I just, I thought that everything and everyone else was gonna give it to me.

• 36:56Jay Shetty?

  Tell me some of the ways you've been giving it to yourself, because you are getting, like you said, like. A lot of people get to the point you've got to when they're unsuccessful.

• 37:04Speaker 02

  Hmm.

• 37:04Jay Shetty?

  So like they wait till the record's now not getting the downloads and the streams and like they're not really winning the stuff and things aren't going well. And then you go, oh, this wasn't it. You're realizing it while things are hot, right? Like things are good. You've got a new album dropping. The music sounds great, by the way. I wanted to say like, I, I would agree. I was thankful that your team sent me the

• 37:22Speaker 02

  Of course.

• 37:23Jay Shetty?

  the album before and it's like, I can't wait to play it more and more and I can't wait for everyone to hear it. Music's awesome. And I just go, you're winning and you realized it. Like, what are some of the things you're doing to validate yourself? Like, what are you doing?

• 37:38Speaker 02

  Like, that's what I'm still working on.

• 37:40Jay Shetty?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 37:40Speaker 02

  You know?

• 37:41Jay Shetty?

  What are some of the practices that?

• 37:44Jay Shetty?

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• 38:29Jay Shetty?

  Terms and conditions apply. Need to hire? This is a job for Indeed sponsored jobs. This episode is brought to you by Vinted. Value can be found anywhere, even in the clothes sitting untouched in our closets. That's where Vinted comes in. Vinted is a secondhand marketplace app where you can sell clothes you no longer want and get more value out of them. Whether you're running out of space, moving, or simply updating your wardrobe. Listing items is a quick and simple process. And once something sells, Vinted creates a prepaid shipping label for you. And the best part, there are no seller fees, so you keep what you earn. It's a simple way to clear out your closet, be less wasteful, and maybe make some extra money along the way.

• 39:13Jay Shetty?

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• 39:53Speaker 02

  I think, you know, it's having good values is one of them. Values that like I can control, you know. I think honoring the gift is important, celebrating myself. And I think a way that I've celebrated myself, which makes me feel good about myself is to honor my gift. And so, for example, like going to the gym, for me to lose 30 pounds of fat, not muscle, right? 30 pounds of fat was crazy. I did it through shame. You need to lose weight, you know, and just talking crazy to myself and it still worked. But I lost the weight and I still didn't feel good about myself. I still had a breakdown, you know? And so now I'm looking at going to the gym as I'm celebrating my health and my body.

• 40:37Speaker 02

  I'm honoring the gift of being alive and being mobile, you know? And celebrating the gift of of my creativity by going to the studio. Instead of looking at going to the studio like, I need to catch a hit, otherwise I'm a loser. It's like, nah, I'm celebrating myself. Every time I go to the studio, it's a celebration.

• 40:55Jay Shetty?

  That's that's already a great mindset.

• 40:57Speaker 02

  Yeah, it's better than where I was at.

• 40:58Jay Shetty?

  No, but I think what we don't realize is even if critical judgmental, negative motivation works.

• 41:06Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 41:07Jay Shetty?

  The problem is now that's all you have in your toolkit to motivate yourself.

• 41:11Speaker 02

  Right.

• 41:12Jay Shetty?

  So when you've lost the weight you wanted to lose, you're now motivating yourself still through that criticism, judgment and

• 41:18Speaker 02

  Right.

• 41:19Jay Shetty?

  like talking down to yourself. And even with the music, I love what you just said, you feel so much more abundant.

• 41:24Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 41:25Jay Shetty?

  When you walk into something and you go, I'm just here because I'm grateful to be alive. I'm happy to be here as opposed to. God, if I don't write the next hit. And I know so many musicians that say that to me. And in music, it's the hardest place.

• 41:37Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 41:37Jay Shetty?

  And I feel like I have so many people in my life that are friends that feel that pressure. Because, again, like you said, it's the pressure they're hearing from their management.

• 41:46Speaker 02

  Right.

• 41:46Jay Shetty?

  Their team.

• 41:47Speaker 02

  Their fans.

• 41:48Jay Shetty?

  Their fans, potentially, if they're not connected to them. You're gonna become irrelevant.

• 41:52Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 41:52Jay Shetty?

  You'll never be as big as so and so.

• 41:54Speaker 02

  Right.

• 41:54Jay Shetty?

  Didn't you see what they just did? Like, and so if you don't have that healthy dialogue internally. And I do think it is that for me as well. It's like I spend, I spend so much time alone just to monitor my internal dialogue.

• 42:10Speaker 02

  Scary.

• 42:11Jay Shetty?

  Because it's the only way.

• 42:12Speaker 02

  It's terrifying.

• 42:13Jay Shetty?

  Because when I'm alone.

• 42:14Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 42:14Jay Shetty?

  I can truly choose and program the thoughts in my mind.

• 42:17Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 42:17Jay Shetty?

  Whereas if I'm constantly surrounded by people and noise, it's natural that it's gonna seep in.

• 42:22Speaker 02

  Well, sometimes the noise distracts us from looking in, because looking in is scary. That's what I was doing.

• 42:27Jay Shetty?

  I think that's the biggest reason why people don't wanna spend time alone.

• 42:29Speaker 02

  Of course, especially men. Because like, we, once again, know that, or we have like, believed that our emotions are irrelevant. And ignore them, you know? Be like, just completely avoid feeling anything, and that's what makes you a man. And so I think spending time alone and meditation and doing like, you know, personal work is a very like, it feels feminine to men, it feels soft. And the, the, like, something interesting that I stumbled on is like, how strong of a man are you? And how brave of a man are you if you're scared to face yourself?

• 43:11Jay Shetty?

  Wow.

• 43:12Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 43:13Jay Shetty?

  Yeah, that's the real bravery.

• 43:14Speaker 02

  Yeah, sit in a room with yourself. That's like, that's courageous.

• 43:17Jay Shetty?

  Yeah, I think it goes back to what you were saying earlier, that it's the perfection and positivity issue. That we keep thinking that everything has to be like, positive and sunny. And when I look inside of myself, I see tons of a dark side and stuff that I don't wanna see. But I also know that that's not me because of how we were trained, the idea that.

• 43:43Jay Shetty?

  You know, the concept in all of the monk teachings is that the sun is always shining. It's just often covered by clouds. And so when you look up at the sky, all you see is the clouds. You don't see the sun and you think, I am the clouds.

• 43:55Speaker 02

  Wow.

• 43:56Jay Shetty?

  So when you look at your thoughts, you see the cloudy thoughts and you think, I'm darkness.

• 43:59Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 44:00Jay Shetty?

  But actually, the sun's always there. It's just you can't see it. And so the light that me and you are, the light that everyone who's listening and watching is, is always there. It's just, we're just seeing all the dirt and the clouds and the rain and the, you know, and we then judge it and see it as negative rather than the fact that, hey, wait a minute. I'm just, I'm just gonna find the light and I understand that sometimes it's gonna be a cloudy day, just like it is outdoors.

• 44:23Speaker 02

  Yeah, and that's what led me to feeling like a fraud.

• 44:25Jay Shetty?

  That, that song's amazing.

• 44:27Speaker 02

  That's what that is, is because looking at the cloud, thinking you are the cloud. And so then when people give you a compliment, you're like, they're giving you a compliment on you being the sun. And for me, I'm like, if only you knew I was a cloud. I would look at my shadow self and the parts of me that I'm ashamed of. It would make it impossible for me to receive love and compliments or anything positive. Also tied in with feeling like a fraud was me having to analyze, well, why did my parents getting divorced actually affect me? Why did the hate coming in actually affect me? Cause on surface, it felt so vapid, like, oh, your parents broke up and people don't like you, big deal, right? But when I, through therapy and through really growing down, that's when I learned like, okay, hold on.

• 45:12Speaker 02

  Since I was a kid, my role and my identity came from being the savior of my family emotionally, you know? And I talk about it on I Love You Boy, where my dad was very reactive and my mom was like fatalistic. And I was just the one running around, knocking on everyone's door to make sure like everyone was good after a big fight or whatever, you know, cause I was, I was worried, genuinely worried. So the stakes were super high. They felt like life or death, you know, like maybe there was gonna be self harm or something. And so my identity was tied to saving my family and helping them. So when my parents got divorced. It was the ultimate blow to my identity of being the savior. It wasn't just like your parents broke up, bro, you're 23, get over.

• 45:55Speaker 02

  It was like, who am I if I, if my parents break up? Who am I if I can't save us, right? And then with the hate coming in, I got my self-worth from being approved and liked by everyone. And so when I got hate and a lot of it, it wasn't just you have haters get over it. It was who am I if people don't like me? So it, that's what threw me for a spin. It was, I feel like a fraud.

• 46:21Jay Shetty?

  That is so deep, yeah. The, your identity is based on the roles you played.

• 46:26Speaker 02

  Right.

• 46:27Jay Shetty?

  And if you can no longer play that role.

• 46:29Speaker 02

  Who am I?

• 46:29Jay Shetty?

  Then who is, what is your identity?

• 46:31Speaker 02

  Right.

• 46:31Jay Shetty?

  And that's where it's hard because that means, going back to what you said earlier, which was really powerful, is that your values is the best place to start. Because your values is something you can control. If you only value yourself for a role you play for other people, which you don't control.

• 46:47Speaker 02

  Right.

• 46:48Jay Shetty?

  Now that's not your value.

• 46:49Speaker 02

  Right.

• 46:50Jay Shetty?

  And when they break up or it goes astray, you don't know who you are anymore. That is.

• 46:56Speaker 02

  Devastating blow.

• 46:58Jay Shetty?

  Yeah.

• 46:58Speaker 02

  Yeah, especially when I didn't know why I was so upset by it, you know? I was like, this shouldn't be affecting, I'm 24, 25, like, what's the big deal? But it just didn't go away. And then it was funny that like the hate and them divorcing came at the same time. And now when I look back, I'm like, this was all like by design. You know, this was all to help me grow down. But yeah, it's like, you know, when you, when you've gotten your identity from a role that you've been playing for so long and that role is taken away from you or threatened, it's like, yeah, who are you?

• 47:32Jay Shetty?

  You've said that phrase twice just now, growing down, not growing up.

• 47:36Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 47:37Jay Shetty?

  What does that mean? Because I like that.

• 47:38Speaker 02

  I think a lot of times in my career, I was just focused on like external growth and like, am I getting more followers? Am I getting more money? Am I getting more plaques? And am I growing up, you know? And I wasn't focused on growing down into like the core of who I am and getting to the, to the root of it and to the truth of myself. And that's what I've been trying to do. That's what this album is, is like me growing down, trying to like get deeper and deeper into who I actually am, you know? Cause I'm just trying to operate from a place of authenticity and truth and.

• 48:14Speaker 02

  It's hard to feel authentic and be authentic when you're operating from a place of shame. Like, I'm ashamed of who I am and I'm insecure about who I am. So how can I be authentic? Because authentic, being authentic would mean being insecure and being, and it's like, I can't be that.

• 48:35Jay Shetty?

  Yeah.

• 48:35Speaker 02

  Especially in rap, you know what I mean? So it's like, gotta mask it, gotta be omnipotent, you know?

• 48:41Jay Shetty?

  What was the darkest and scariest thing you saw when you started growing down?

• 48:45Speaker 02

  I think the biggest thing I, the like darkest thing in thought I had was like, I don't like myself. That was like the heaviest.

• 48:55Jay Shetty?

  And what was it that you didn't like about yourself?

• 48:58Speaker 02

  I was ashamed about how I've handled my career. I was very mad about, at like 23 year old me, I would beat him up daily.

• 49:14Speaker 02

  I was mad about, you know, me being reactive towards people. I just didn't like anything about, you know, myself. And that was a real low point of like, once again, fraud. If only the world knew, you know? And I have a self-help book, right? And I mentioned that on fraud as well. It's like, who am I? Like, to try to give people a book, like, and for me, the book's so successful and has helped a lot of people. But I look back at that book, I'm like, it's like vapid to me now, you know? And I'm glad it's helping people, but, and I shouldn't, I shouldn't denounce any version of me. That's like, you're watching it in real time, what I do.

• 49:57Speaker 02

  And, um, yeah, that's the, that's the heaviest, darkest thing that I've come to terms with. Not that it's a reality of mine that I want to come to terms with, but getting to a place of like, I don't, I don't like myself. That was the lowest point.

• 50:10Jay Shetty?

  I love what you just said, that it's like, being authentic means being able to accept that I feel insecure.

• 50:17Speaker 02

  Right.

• 50:18Jay Shetty?

  And that, that last version of me just got me through that. And that doesn't make it good or bad, but it was a reality. But we think being authentic means being like, smooth and like organized.

• 50:30Speaker 02

  What I've learned in therapy is the admission of insecurity and feeling nervous is step one. Because.

• 50:40Speaker 02

  What happened to me, and I think what happens to a lot of people, is rejecting your insecurities leads to self destruction. So, for example, like, I used to do interviews, super drunk, right? Why? Because I was nervous and insecure about just being my authentic self. I didn't know how to be that version. So I would drink to knock the edge off. So like, the rejecting of my insecurity led to self destructive habits and overall, a result that I don't like, you know? So, yeah, I think just sitting in your insecurities and saying that it's okay to be insecure and feel nervous. And I think for me, it's like, nah, like, especially as men, like, nah, I'm not allowed

• 51:24Speaker 02

  to, like, we gotta be the man, you know?

• 51:26Jay Shetty?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. I often like, even when I, if I ever end up, I don't go to many parties or events and things like that, but if I ever have to, or I do go for a specific purpose, and it was someone, it was what, it was on the Trevor Noah interview, when Trevor came on the show, he said to me, he goes, Jay, you always seem really comfortable whenever I see you somewhere. And I was like, that's because I only really go to places I have a purpose. Like, I was like, if I don't have a purpose there, I was like, if you ever see me uncomfortable, it's because I don't have a purpose, then I don't know what I'm doing there. And I had a couple of those last year, which we talked about, it's funny enough, my, my team was like, oh, you should definitely go to this event, it's really important and stuff. And so I went along, and I just felt really like insecure there and useless, because I didn't have a role, I didn't have a purpose.

• 52:09Jay Shetty?

  I wasn't representing what I believe I go to, obviously, I was representing myself, but I mean, I wasn't there to represent anything bigger than me showing up. And I found that when I do feel like that, I just go up to one other person that I feel I could connect with and just be like, hey, are you feeling insecure too? Because I am. And it's, and it's amazing, because everyone's feeling insecure, like, especially at like these big events, that like, no one, there's no one, no matter how cool you think anyone is, there is no one who's at an award show, an event, or a party, or anything, that is feeling anything but insecure. I have not met them, at least.

• 52:44Speaker 02

  Right. And doesn't that break the wall down?

• 52:46Jay Shetty?

  Literally completely.

• 52:47Speaker 02

  Like, as soon as you do that, it's like, it goes away. It's the resisting the insecurity that has everyone on edge. And they're looking at you and you seem to have it all the way together. Meanwhile, you're panicking inside.

• 52:59Jay Shetty?

  Yeah.

• 53:00Speaker 02

  And now they feel like, well, I gotta have it all the way together. And we're all tense and just like acting.

• 53:04Jay Shetty?

  Yeah.

• 53:04Speaker 02

  And if we could just be like, hey, is everyone nervous? Like, it's almost like, let's all stand here naked. Like, that's what that does emotionally. You know what I mean? It's like, all right, cool. Now let's like, now let's continue.

• 53:15Jay Shetty?

  Yeah, yeah, and that happens in our like, you know, it happens in family events. It happens at weddings. It happens at holiday events. Like, it happens in normal life. You don't, this isn't just about the entertainment industry. Like, it happens everywhere.

• 53:27Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 53:27Jay Shetty?

  And I fully agree with you that it's because we're just resisting, in your, in your words, like, resisting that insecurity.

• 53:34Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 53:35Jay Shetty?

  What's an insecurity that you were resisting for the longest time? Like, what would you say was an insecurity that you've just been holding on to for?

• 53:41Speaker 02

  Not feeling like I don't belong. That's probably like one of the biggest ones. Being a white guy in rap, in hip hop, with no cosign within the culture to sort of make me feel like I do belong. It was, it was a massive insecurity of mine and I just came in guns blazing. Like, I don't need any of y'all, look, uh. And it's like, deep down, you wanted everyone, though.

• 54:07Jay Shetty?

  Yeah.

• 54:08Speaker 02

  You wanted help, deep down, you know? But you masked it by, well, if I'm not gonna get it, I'll do it myself. And that became like, a really big like, brand and motto for me. And I don't think people understand that my song, Do It Myself, and that energy, it was survival. It wasn't like, if you have people willing to help, you should tell them no. It was, I didn't have help. I wish I did, but I didn't. So I had to do it myself.

• 54:36Jay Shetty?

  Has there anyone who's ever reached out in the industry that you feel has, not cosigned, obviously, but like, given you a bit of that kind of nurturing? Or has it, has it still always been kind of like, I'm making my own?

• 54:47Speaker 02

  I think I've met a lot of great people in the industry who have given me validation. And like, you're great, you're dope. But like, yeah, I mean, I've never been like, taken under someone's wing.

• 54:55Jay Shetty?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 54:56Speaker 02

  You know, it was always just kind of like, me and my manager just like going at this thing, you know? And um, I'm trying to be more proud of my younger self, as much as I want to beat him up for how he like, was omnipotent and a maniac. But it's like, for what you were going through? You crushed, you know, like, I don't know how you did all that. And, and that's what I Love You Boy, that song is about, especially on that third verse where it's like, you know, saying you deserve a pat on the back, you know, it's just like, I've never given myself a pat on the back. And I wanted to take that song to like, as an opportunity to give myself the much needed, you know, pat on the back.

• 55:38Jay Shetty?

  Yeah.

• 55:38Speaker 02

  And compassion.

• 55:39Jay Shetty?

  Inspired by that song, if, if you saw, like, if you were, if instead of me, your younger self was sitting in front of you.

• 55:45Speaker 02

  This is a therapy exercise right here.

• 55:47Jay Shetty?

  If you're, instead of me, if your younger self was sitting in front of you right now, like, sitting in this seat, what does he need to hear? Not advice, but what does he need to hear?

• 55:56Speaker 02

  What does he need to hear? He needs to hear that you're okay, you're safe, and I got you. That's what he needs to hear.

• 56:05Jay Shetty?

  And what do you think he'd say back?

• 56:07Speaker 02

  Probably, I don't need your help. Yeah. It's really interesting how like, what I think all of us need from ourselves is just more compassion and more grace. And the younger version of me needs that so bad, needed that so bad, and I didn't get it. And he didn't know how to receive that help and receive that compassion. And I don't know if, you know, if I was talking to him and he rejected the help and compassion, I would just keep trying. Cause I know that's what he really needs. He just wants to feel safe, like he belongs, like it's gonna be okay. Like he's allowed to make mistakes, you know? That's the other thing. Once again, being a perfectionist, it's like, it really is like hindering when it comes to

• 56:51Speaker 02

  everything, like, accepting help, because once again, help is coded as criticism. As a perfectionist, feeling good about anything you've done because you could have always done better. So you didn't quite nail your standard of perfection. And I just think like, that's what I'm trying to get to now, is like, giving myself more grace. And I talk about it on Tunnel Vision, where I say, I wanna stop thinking that I gotta go through hell to get the credit I desperately need to give to myself. You know, you can just do this a easier way.

• 57:23Jay Shetty?

  It's also hard being a high performer who gives grace to themselves.

• 57:29Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 57:29Jay Shetty?

  Because that's the hard part, right? It's like, I want to perform at the best, but I know I need to be nice to myself. But I can't be too nice because if I'm too nice to myself, then I can't perform at my best. And it's like this fight inside of you.

• 57:42Speaker 02

  Yeah, I think it it comes down to kind of what you were saying earlier, where it's like, if your toolkit is only shame and like dark motivation, then you're just going to use that and it's not sustainable. I think for me, the light motivation is like, you know, I love what I'm doing. You know, when I'm on stage, I love the fans, I love performing. And as long as I did my best, I have to be okay with that.

• 58:05Jay Shetty?

  Yeah.

• 58:06Speaker 02

  You know, I can say, oh, okay, you know, I know I can do better than that. But tonight I did my best. And it's easier said than done, like I'm working on that. But I think that's the place to start is just knowing like, did you do your best with the resources that you had? And to think that you were supposed to just be this all knowing entity.

• 58:26Jay Shetty?

  Yeah.

• 58:26Speaker 02

  It's like, that's arrogance, you know? But that's why I would beat myself up a lot. It's like, how did you not know? You know, but it's like, you're allowed to not know everything.

• 58:35Jay Shetty?

  That's powerful. Yeah, that's powerful, actually, to look back and think, I wouldn't have done anything better. I'm glad that I had to just go through that. This episode is brought to you by Chase Sapphire Reserve. One of the greatest gifts we can give ourselves is the chance to step outside of our routine. Travel is a way of slowing us down and shifting our perspective. And with the Chase Sapphire Reserve card, every journey becomes even more rewarding. Earn four times the points on flights and hotels booked direct. Enjoy access to award winning airport lounges, three times the points on dining and reserve exclusive tables. Learn more at chase.com/sapphirereserve.

• 59:16Jay Shetty?

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• 1:00:00Jay Shetty?

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• 1:00:30Speaker 02

  That's who I was back then. Those were like, I based my decisions in the past off of what I knew back then and what felt true to me back then, what felt authentic, and with the reservoir of knowledge I had back then. That's what I based my decisions off of. Obviously now, seven years later, 10 years, whatever it is, I would make different decisions, but it's like, I can't be mad at 23-year-old me that he didn't know what 30-year-old me knows. It's so hard for me to not want to beat him up, like, you're such an idiot. All you had to do was like, read this one book and you would have even been better off, you know? Sometimes it feels like the answer was right there.

• 1:01:09Jay Shetty?

  But that's what it is, right? Like, we have this habit as humans where we judge ourselves off of one conversation, one event, one performance, one song, one meeting. And what's really interesting thing about that is that we then project that onto other people where we judge them on one song, one moment, one interaction, rather than looking at someone as this story of a human.

• 1:01:37Jay Shetty?

  And it's fascinating to me that you would never ever pick up a book and read one page and judge the whole book. No one really does that.

• 1:01:47Speaker 02

  Right.

• 1:01:48Jay Shetty?

  You would read some of the book at least, but it's like with ourselves and with others, we don't see them as a story. We see them as a page.

• 1:01:54Speaker 02

  Yeah, that's so true. It's so brutal, though.

• 1:01:58Jay Shetty?

  It's so brutal.

• 1:01:59Speaker 02

  It's so brutal. I do it to myself and I think, I think in the world of social media too, you're not allowed to make mistakes. Your one mistake is the book. That just tells me everything I need to know about you and how you treat yourself. Cause I know like, I tend to be, and this is like not a great thing, a very judgmental person. And I justify it by saying, relax, I judge myself too. It's like, that's not good though.

• 1:02:25Jay Shetty?

  Yeah.

• 1:02:26Speaker 02

  You know, but I do what you said. I look at one event and be like, you don't deserve anything because of that one convo or that one tweet or that one.

• 1:02:34Jay Shetty?

  Yeah, not realizing that at that point, that was where that person was.

• 1:02:38Speaker 02

  Right, right.

• 1:02:39Jay Shetty?

  And actually, we open people up to change, including ourselves, when we recognize that our capacity for change can increase.

• 1:02:47Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:02:47Jay Shetty?

  If you look back at an event, like you're saying, and you're like, I actually appreciate, that's what I knew then. I didn't do something I was proud of, but that's all I knew then.

• 1:02:55Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:02:55Jay Shetty?

  Now that I, I think there's a famous Maya Angelou quote where she says that, now that I know better, I do better.

• 1:03:01Speaker 02

  Right.

• 1:03:02Jay Shetty?

  And the idea of, if you don't accept that that's possible for you and others, that's what actually keeps you in prison because you keep saying, no, no, no, that's who you are.

• 1:03:15Speaker 02

  Right.

• 1:03:15Jay Shetty?

  That event 10 years ago is who you are and that's who you will ever be.

• 1:03:19Speaker 02

  So tough. That's so true.

• 1:03:22Jay Shetty?

  It's tough.

• 1:03:22Speaker 02

  But I mean, in social media, you're not allowed to change your mind. That also keeps people, especially celebrities and people in the public eye, like into this prison where it's like, no, no, no, no. What you said you believed, what you said 10 days, 10 years ago, you better still believe that, or you're fake, like, and it's crazy because you're allowed to change your mind. And not only are you allowed to change your mind, you're supposed to change your mind. You're supposed to now have a new belief system. It's not like, Rick Rubin talked about it with you, and I thought it was so spot on. It's like, if you still like, have the same beliefs you did 20 years ago upon learning new things, then you're not growing. Like, you know, but I think that's why you gotta like,

• 1:04:05Speaker 02

  remove yourself from social media and let the world, and the mob of the internet, stop trying to reconcile with them, reconcile with yourself and give yourself the permission to change your mind.

• 1:04:14Jay Shetty?

  Yeah, yeah. What's something you think that you have changed your mind on? From, let's say like, maybe 10 years ago, or maybe if you need to go back longer, 20 years ago. Like, I'll share one of mine. Mine was, when I was young, I didn't, because I grew up in this mindset, I believed that people who had money had to do something dodgy to get money.

• 1:04:35Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 1:04:36Jay Shetty?

  Because that's the language that I was raised in. Like, we always heard that, like, oh yeah, but he doesn't pay his taxes.

• 1:04:41Speaker 02

  Right.

• 1:04:42Jay Shetty?

  If I saw a nice car and I'd be like, my family would be like, oh yeah, yeah, but they always do that dodgy business on the side. And so in my head, anyone who had money must be doing something wrong to have money. And that, not only did that limit me from appreciating others, or admiring, or learning from those people, it blocked me from thinking that was good for me and possible for me.

• 1:05:06Speaker 02

  Right, because you would have had to do dodgy shit.

• 1:05:08Jay Shetty?

  Because I would have had to do dodgy stuff, and I thought I was a good person, so I don't, I'm not gonna do anything. I would never do anything bad, so.

• 1:05:13Speaker 02

  So you'll never get money.

• 1:05:13Jay Shetty?

  So you'll never get money, yeah, exactly. And then you all of a sudden start realizing where like, you need to meet, and this is why I think, this is why I love the podcast, because I wanna show people, or show sides of people, or let people show sides of themselves, where people can go, oh, that is possible. I can be a rapper.

• 1:05:32Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:05:32Jay Shetty?

  And go to therapy, like, I can be, you know, I can be someone who makes songs about this, this, this, and work on myself, like, there is an and, as opposed to like this, you know.

• 1:05:43Speaker 02

  Finite, yeah.

• 1:05:44Jay Shetty?

  Exactly, so for me, that was a big one for me of recognizing that you can make money with integrity, you could use it in service, you could, it could be used proactively for purpose, and that. Was a massive limiting belief and negative belief I had. What was something for you that you changed your mind on?

• 1:06:02Speaker 02

  I think the big thing for me was thinking that I was always right.

• 1:06:07Jay Shetty?

  Ooh, that's a good one.

• 1:06:08Speaker 02

  That's the biggest one for me. Because I was operating in this place, once again, of omnipotence, just that I knew everything. Everything I did was right, every decision I've ever made was right. Because, look at my life. Clearly, everything I've ever done was right and everything I say is right, everything I know. So, I got to a place now where I'm so much more curious and I'm so much more humble in the sense of like, I'm open to being wrong. Because it's like, I believe what I believe, but I'm open to changing my mind. I'm open to someone else telling me their beliefs and me being open minded and curious about it. I'm open to not always being right. And I think that is a much better like, starting place.

• 1:06:52Jay Shetty?

  And that's, it's really interesting because everything we're saying is basically that paradox. It's like we were saying, you want to be ambitious, but you've got to have grace for yourself. You want to be, you want to know your values, but you want to be open to learning more and changing them. And it's almost like everything is this. And I think that's where we struggled the most. Because whether it was parenting, whether it was school, whether it was our background, we were always told that there was one right answer.

• 1:07:21Speaker 02

  Right.

• 1:07:22Jay Shetty?

  Right? Like you had to get-

• 1:07:22Speaker 02

  And it's in the back of the book.

• 1:07:23Jay Shetty?

  And it's in the back, yeah, exactly, yeah, yeah. And it's like, there's one right answer that everyone has to get to. And if you're one mark off the answer, then it's the wrong answer. And the truth is that life is so variegated, it is so gray. It is, as you just said, even when you were talking earlier, you were like, there are so many layers to this.

• 1:07:40Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:07:40Jay Shetty?

  So it's like, one answer is, material stuff doesn't make you happy, right? But it's like, when you broke down the layers of like, actually, why did my parents' divorce make me unhappy? It's because this is, and so you're like, everything is so layered, but I feel like we haven't, I don't know if our brain, our brain almost needs, not an app, but our brain needs the ability- To be able to understand how everything is so multi-layered.

• 1:08:04Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:08:04Jay Shetty?

  But we're so, it's so much easier to just put someone in a box and go, that's what I'm judging.

• 1:08:09Speaker 02

  And just be more flexible.

• 1:08:10Jay Shetty?

  Yeah.

• 1:08:11Speaker 02

  And I think Atomic Habits talks about like keeping your identity small. And I thought it was so genius. Talks about, you know, there's athletes who their identity is, I'm an athlete. I am a point guard. And what happens when you're not playing basketball anymore, though? And they have this identity crisis and sometimes it gets really, you know, severe. And he talks about how like, instead of saying I'm an athlete, how about saying I'm a hard worker? Who, you know, works well with teams and did it. And so that you can still get, you can still apply what your strengths are from being an athlete into other aspects of your life after being an athlete is done.

• 1:08:49Speaker 02

  And I thought that was so powerful because it's so easy to get tied up into, I'm a rapper. Or I'm a this, or I'm a that. And you start trying to like, do things based off of the perception of yourself. And I just think being more flexible, you know, and not being so rigid on who you are and just, you know, be open.

• 1:09:10Jay Shetty?

  What's something that you were very, I guess, inflexible about, unflexible about? And now that you've become more flexible about in your identity?

• 1:09:18Speaker 02

  I think being a man and being what I thought that means. Like being, not showing any emotion, not showing like anything is affecting me.

• 1:09:33Speaker 02

  Not receiving help, doing it myself, all these things like, that to me is the most valuable thing that I'm now flexible on. Is because I've learned that there's strength in vulnerability and there's strength in being honest. And there's strength in collaboration, you know, learning from a positive male role model who's older than you and just can give you, you know, new wisdom, new knowledge. It's like there's strength in collaboration. I think we've talked about it in therapy. It was this documentary that my therapist was talking about like, and he was talking about how like alpha males who lead by dominance via like fear are often like exiled or killed. And the ones who lead through collaboration and cohesion, like.

• 1:10:19Speaker 02

  Like exhibit peace and like people love them. And it's so funny because I think growing up like we would idolize those male figures who were the like just dominant, you know, just invoke fear and all these things. And I'm just trying to help myself and I'm also trying to help my fans. And then on a real, real specific level, I'm trying to be a lighthouse for young men that can look at me and say, you know what? I don't have to have it all figured out because he doesn't. And if he's allowed to make mistakes, I'm allowed to make mistakes. I'm trying to get men and people to just be nicer to themselves, have more compassion, have more grace.

• 1:11:01Jay Shetty?

  I love what you were saying about leaders because I feel like there is that perception that leaders have to be stoic and strong and cold.

• 1:11:10Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:11:11Jay Shetty?

  And it was really interesting to me because I'm, I'm still close with my monk teachers and like they're the kind of people that like would come and sit in the back on the floor of a class and listen to a young monk give a talk.

• 1:11:22Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:11:23Jay Shetty?

  And that was considered humility and the strength of a leader was like they weren't enforcing their authority.

• 1:11:29Speaker 02

  Right.

• 1:11:30Jay Shetty?

  Like they would always say like a real leader doesn't, I would always hear them say this, like a, a real leader doesn't demand respect, they command it. Right. It just, it's natural for them. They don't have to walk into the room and all eyes on me. They don't have to do something big to gain attention. They actually would come on and put the spotlight on you.

• 1:11:48Speaker 02

  Right.

• 1:11:48Jay Shetty?

  But it's interesting because that isn't our general belief around leaders. We almost want to be pushed around and moved around to think someone's powerful.

• 1:11:59Speaker 02

  Right.

• 1:12:00Jay Shetty?

  It's almost like if someone's kind and gracious, you kind of think of them as like a

• 1:12:03Speaker 02

  Soft.

• 1:12:03Jay Shetty?

  A soft and a pushover. Yeah. Whereas, and so I think there's so much rewiring that almost needs to go on into what is healthy leadership or.

• 1:12:11Speaker 02

  I know, and I'm not like the epitome of, you know, where dudes should be looking. But it's like, I agree. I think there's a rewiring that has to happen on what it means to be a man. And I think men need to also stop looking for what it means to be a man from women. And women need to stop even caring what men say when it comes to what does it mean to be a woman?

• 1:12:33Jay Shetty?

  Hmm.

• 1:12:34Speaker 02

  It's, we don't know each other's experiences, you know? Men need more male collaboration, positive male collaboration, positive role models.

• 1:12:43Jay Shetty?

  And I think it's what you said earlier, like knowing that we're wrong. If we are sitting with someone to learn about them, to actually go into it going, I probably don't know what you're going through right now.

• 1:12:53Speaker 02

  Right.

• 1:12:53Jay Shetty?

  And I'm probably wrong.

• 1:12:55Speaker 02

  Right.

• 1:12:55Jay Shetty?

  As opposed to like, yeah, I already know I've got you figured out, like all men are like this, all women are like this, or whatever it may be, which is kind of how we live in the world. What, does anything, do you sleep well? What keeps you up at night?

• 1:13:08Speaker 02

  I sleep well now. I got an Oura ring.

• 1:13:09Jay Shetty?

  Oh, nice. Yeah, I like the Oura ring.

• 1:13:11Speaker 02

  Yeah, I'm a, I don't know, I'm thirty now. I'm trying to like be in bed by, you know, midnight.

• 1:13:16Jay Shetty?

  You're living, dude, you're getting, I'm thirty, I'm thirty-six this year and I've been, I sleep at like nine thirty P M, ten P M.

• 1:13:21Speaker 02

  That's beautiful.

• 1:13:22Jay Shetty?

  Yeah, it's so good.

• 1:13:23Speaker 02

  I've been going to sleep at like nine fifty, getting like eight hours of sleep. I feel like waking up, going on walks. I'm like, who am I? This is crazy.

• 1:13:31Jay Shetty?

  How does it feel to have hit thirty and thirty-one soon?

• 1:13:34Speaker 02

  If, like, even Santiago, this feels like my debut album because it just feels like this is a version of myself that has not been shown to the world. And I still feel as young as I ever felt, but I just feel like I know myself more. I'm more comfortable with myself. I'm living in more of my truth and authenticity. And I'm excited. Like, I just feel, I feel blessed to make it out of my twenties alive, you know, without any like drug problems or anything, because looking back, I'm like, I can see, you know, reasons for numbing the pain, you know? But, um, yeah, I'm excited.

• 1:14:15Jay Shetty?

  I also love the, uh, you know, I was watching you, I'm always following everything you're up to. And I love the way you talk to the fans when you're on stage and when you post from it. But also how you've been encouraging so many young artists to like jump on tracks and like be a part of the music.

• 1:14:30Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:14:30Jay Shetty?

  Through TikTok and everything else. And like, I think that's so dope, man, because I, it just, I think there was, I think there was one when you do with Caitlyn, right?

• 1:14:38Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:14:38Jay Shetty?

  Yeah. And it was just like. I I just found that whole approach to be so true to how you came up.

• 1:14:44Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:14:44Jay Shetty?

  And and what you do and like being able to pass on. How does that feel to be able to now like?

• 1:14:49Speaker 02

  It's it's it's incredible. I feel like I I've said it before to like my friends and and people like you don't really feel the power of your platform or the power of your money until you give it away. And see how it affects someone who maybe doesn't have that. It sort of like snaps you out of it for a second. It snaps you into really what you've built. But yeah, I mean, for me, like the, you know, the approach on TikTok and putting Caitlyn on the song, it's like it's a no brainer like and that's where like I'm glad I don't have an ego in that sense in in that field. It's like if I'm putting up a song and someone is affected by it enough to want to do their own version and people love it. And I think it sounds good. Why would I not just like make that a thing?

• 1:15:30Jay Shetty?

  Yeah.

• 1:15:31Speaker 02

  Just like this is the entertainment business and it's like meaning we're in the business of people enjoying what you're doing. This is a cheat code. They've already said that they enjoy it. Just give it to them. It's like, yeah.

• 1:15:44Jay Shetty?

  I thought it was dope. I loved it too. Yeah, she's great. Very talented. Yeah, very talented. Where where you just mentioned the ego there. Where does the ego still block you sometimes? Like you're like that's somewhere where I don't have an ego. Where is somewhere?

• 1:15:55Speaker 02

  I don't have a, how would you describe the ego?

• 1:15:57Jay Shetty?

  It's a great question.

• 1:15:58Speaker 02

  Because then I could answer.

• 1:15:59Jay Shetty?

  Yeah, yeah, it's a great, it's a great question. And that's why I want to give you a a very thoughtful answer. I would say that the ego is any moment in which you create a false sense of security.

• 1:16:13Jay Shetty?

  So you're creating a false sense of being safe. As opposed to being arrogant, blah, blah, blah. That's because those are all ultimately, it's a false self-defense mechanism.

• 1:16:23Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:16:23Jay Shetty?

  So like, for example, with my wife, it's like if my wife tells me something that I know is blatantly true, my ego will even construct something where I'm like, oh, yeah, but this happened before and this and it's like I'm constructing a true. I'm what I'm saying is true. It's factual, but I'm still using it just to defend my ego.

• 1:16:40Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:16:40Jay Shetty?

  Because I'm scared of just saying like, you know.

• 1:16:42Speaker 02

  That you're wrong.

• 1:16:43Jay Shetty?

  Yeah.

• 1:16:43Speaker 02

  Oh, I do that all the time.

• 1:16:44Jay Shetty?

  Yeah, yeah. So the wrong part's true, but like.

• 1:16:46Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:16:47Jay Shetty?

  Where where do you create a false sense of safety in your life or a false sense of security?

• 1:16:52Speaker 02

  I think trying to constantly.

• 1:16:56Speaker 02

  Save my mom emotionally and take on my family's emotions as my responsibility. Because without me doing that, they're not safe is like a really big crux of like my stress. You know, and it's not on them, it's on me. And it's really me not like, I'm not allowing my mom to pull herself out of the hole. Unless I go down there with her, but that's really the opposite of empowering.

• 1:17:36Speaker 02

  It's like, I need to, I need to let go, but letting go is so scary because if I feel like she's drowning. Or if I feel like my brother's drowning, or my sister, or whoever I love is drowning. And I'm watching them drown, how am I supposed to not go in and save them? But the reality is sometimes they're just flapping their arms and their feet are on the ground. And it just looked like they were drowning.

• 1:18:00Jay Shetty?

  Hmm.

• 1:18:00Speaker 02

  You know, but.

• 1:18:02Jay Shetty?

  Dude, that is a great answer.

• 1:18:04Speaker 02

  Was it?

• 1:18:04Jay Shetty?

  That is a great answer. No, because you just, there was another definition is as when you asked me that question that came to my mind. It's, and whatever anyone's belief in God is, when I say the word God, it's like God, universe, whatever, whatever you personally choose. But like, the ego is when you choose to play God instead of play your part for God.

• 1:18:25Speaker 02

  Wow.

• 1:18:26Jay Shetty?

  Right?

• 1:18:26Speaker 02

  Okay, so that was a good answer.

• 1:18:27Jay Shetty?

  And that's why it's a great answer.

• 1:18:29Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:18:29Jay Shetty?

  Because that is exactly what's happening. It's like you're, you're saying it's all on me.

• 1:18:34Speaker 02

  Right.

• 1:18:35Jay Shetty?

  You're trying to be the universe. The almighty omnipotent, you use the word at the beginning, like that's a godlike word, right? Like where you're like, everything rests and depends on me.

• 1:18:45Speaker 02

  Right.

• 1:18:45Jay Shetty?

  Which means if I do it, I'm gonna save it. And if I'm not there, it's gonna fall apart.

• 1:18:49Speaker 02

  Right.

• 1:18:49Jay Shetty?

  And that's ego, because like you just rightly said, like, not only you can love someone and let them still grow by themselves and still be there for them, but you can't grow for them.

• 1:19:00Speaker 02

  Right.

• 1:19:00Jay Shetty?

  But when you want to grow for someone instead of grow with them or help them grow.

• 1:19:05Speaker 02

  Yeah, and I think that that level of like omnipotence and that level of control also.

• 1:19:13Speaker 02

  Influences like lack of confidence because by me being like, let me handle it. Really says, oh, so you think that if I handle it, you know, me being my mind like, oh, you think if I handle it, don't let you help me, Russ, that like, I can't do it, you know? And I'm just like, yeah, kind of, you know, but I need to, it's just really, it's coming back to that place of my role in my identity, I always played the role of helping and being responsible emotionally for people and saving them and fixing things. And so it's just second nature. I get very hyper vigilant when I, when someone around me is upset.

• 1:19:53Speaker 02

  Because if you're upset, it's my fault is what, is what it gets like coded as. And I'm trying to unlearn that, but that's tough because like I said, I feel, um, or when I was a kid, the stakes seemed so high. It felt like it was life or death. If I don't help, what if someone self harms, et cetera. But now, when someone's upset, I still can't let go and, and still be there for them, but not feel like I have to go down into the hole with them. Because I'm still operating from that childlike role, you know, and I, and I'm just working on understanding that like, they're okay, they're gonna be okay, like, you know, no one's saying like, cut them off and don't talk to anyone, but it's like, you don't need to go down into the hole with them.

• 1:20:38Jay Shetty?

  Yeah, that's beautiful. And man, the, the album Santiago is inspired by Paulo Coelho's Alchemist.

• 1:20:43Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 1:20:43Jay Shetty?

  Which is a legend, if you haven't heard of, I mean, you have to have heard of this book, everyone's listening. If you haven't, it's a legendary book by a legendary author. When did you first come across the book and, and why did you feel like you wanted to bring music into the book?

• 1:20:56Speaker 02

  Um, so Boogie is my best friend, put that book in my hand when I was probably seventeen, eighteen.

• 1:21:02Jay Shetty?

  I met him last time.

• 1:21:03Speaker 02

  Did you? Yeah.

• 1:21:04Jay Shetty?

  He brought him with you last, yeah, yeah, yeah. He's such a great dude. Yeah.

• 1:21:07Speaker 02

  Incredible. So he put like that book in my hand and Napoleon Hill in my hand, you know, and crazy books to read at that age. Um, and I was instantly like, it became like a Bible for me, you know? And there's, there was just so many parallels that I found and I just, I've like, opened it back up, you know, a few times over the years, but for whatever reason, two years ago, summer of twenty twenty one, I decided to reread it. And you know how you can like, read a book that you've already read, but you read it at a different time in your life and all of a sudden different things stick out and it resonates deeper. And so it, it just felt. It just spoke to me so deeply than even before. And I was like, man, I want to make a whole album. It's beautiful.

• 1:21:50Speaker 02

  That gives like, that parallels the book with my story. But what ended up happening was it was hard for me to just tell my story. And not make an album about The Alchemist. And so that's why I ended up saying it was loosely inspired by The Alchemist. Because at the inception, it was truly like, it felt like I couldn't write about my life. I had to write about Santiago's. But then Paulo Coelho says something in, and I think the foreword, where he says, Santiago is my journey, but it's your journey because one man's journey is everyone's journey. And that was the unlock for me and the permission for me to like, tell my story. And there is like parallels within The Alchemist and my natural story, but it's not

• 1:22:34Speaker 02

  a complete side by side thing. It's just, it was a lighthouse for me, you know? The wind and Oasis, it was things that I related to, but I still had my own input on. But yeah, complete framework and lighthouse and he's a genius. Yeah. I sent him the album and. What did he say? Yeah, he likes it. So it's like, that to me was like, this is insane. That's beautiful, man. What a beautiful homage to like, you know? Yeah. One of the great writers. I was nervous because I'm like, it was so, so insane. I start making this album, Summer 2021, he doesn't follow me on Twitter randomly. Like right when I start to make it, he follows me on Twitter. You know, he follows like 160 people. And I was like, what are the odds that like while I'm making this, but you know, if you read The Alchemist, the signs and all these things, I'm like, all right.

• 1:23:17Speaker 02

  Clearly I'm supposed to be reading this or unless he's got the room bugged, like I don't know what's going on. But I, so I told, right when he followed me, I told him, I was like, yo, I'm actually making an album about like loosely inspired by The Alchemist. And he was like, that's so great. Keep me posted. And he would like check in periodically like, yo, how's it coming? And I was like, he doesn't follow me anymore. I don't think it's personal.

• 1:23:41Jay Shetty?

  I love it, I love it. You just, you took Santiago down a different path.

• 1:23:44Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 1:23:45Jay Shetty?

  No, that's beautiful, man. I love that. I love that. If there's one song, Russ, you've been amazing. This has been such a, it's always great having you here. I've got two questions for you. One is, is there anything I haven't asked you that you want to talk about? Cause you're a friend and I, I have to honor you with that question. Is there anything we haven't dove into that you're like, gee, I want to talk about this, or even if it's quieter and you're like, it's on my heart right now, I need to say it. The floor is yours.

• 1:24:07Speaker 02

  No, I think honestly, I think we touched on everything. Yeah, and I'm really, really happy with how this went. I appreciate you having me for real.

• 1:24:13Jay Shetty?

  Of course, man. I appreciate you. I was looking, you can come back on whenever you want. Like this is like, it's, it's, I love conversations where they really are just like a back and forth and like, that's how I feel with you. I'm just like, we can just talk about stuff and figure stuff out and not know the answer and,

• 1:24:28Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:24:29Jay Shetty?

  you know, but if there's one, I'm gonna say my one, you can say yours. What is the one track you want everyone to go stream after listening to this episode? Which one would you recommend?

• 1:24:38Speaker 02

  I love you, boy.

• 1:24:39Jay Shetty?

  I was gonna say the same one, yeah. I think it's so aligned with today's conversation. But the other ones that I recommend too, that we discussed today, Fraud, really powerful. Oasis, highly recommend too as well. And then of course, go listen to the whole album. Russ, you've been amazing to have back on.

• 1:24:53Speaker 02

  Thank you.

• 1:24:53Jay Shetty?

  I appreciate you so much as a, as a human, as a artist. I, I don't know anyone who's made mental health and music seem that cool as you have, which I love because it's, it's my life's work, but seeing you do it in your way is so empowering. And I think there are a whole group of listeners that are gonna come up and just have different viewpoints because of you.

• 1:25:15Speaker 02

  I hope so, man. Thank you.

• 1:25:17Jay Shetty?

  It's happened already. It's happened and it's happening. So, but thank you, man. I appreciate you being on purpose.

• 1:25:22Speaker 02

  And listen, it's a testament to like, the reason why I always want to come back here is because the energy you have and like the barriers down vibe you have where there's no judgment and the depth you have, it was just such a no brainer for me to like, I always gotta go back and sit with him because it's just such a like, even the energy in this room is just so. Curious and like safe, you know? So that's a testament to you.

• 1:25:46Jay Shetty?

  Thank you for saying that, man. I appreciate it. Anytime, anytime. And everyone who's been listening, watching, wherever you are, whether you're walking your dog, whether you're cooking, whether you're driving to and from work, or whether you're at the gym, make sure you tag me and Russ in all your posts on TikTok, on Instagram. Let us know what resonated with you, what stuck out to you on Twitter, on threads. I love seeing the little clips. I love seeing how you're enjoying the podcast. It means the world to me. I know mean a lot to Russ. And tag us when you're streaming as well. Santiago, it's out right now. Thank you so much, everyone. If you loved this episode, you'll love my interview with Will Smith on owning your truth and unlocking the power of manifestation.

• 1:26:24Speaker 03

  Anybody who hasn't spoken to their parents or their brother, call them right now. Don't think you're gonna have a chance to call them tomorrow or next week. That opportunity with my father changed every relationship in my life. Mr. President, my company told me of the explosion on our rig. On October 2nd. Causing massive water displacement and triggering a tsunami. They all heap the blame on me. Tom Cruise is.

• 1:26:51Speaker 04

  Digger got us into this mess, and Digger's gonna dig us up. From the director of Birdman and The Revenant.

• 1:26:57Speaker 03

  What would happen if I stopped going? You start, you freeze to death, that's what.

• 1:27:01Speaker 04

  With great power comes great deniability.

• 1:27:04Speaker 03

  I'm not the first then.

• 1:27:06Speaker 04

  Digger, see the trailer online, only in theaters October 2nd. Rated R, under 17, not a minute without parent.