WE'RE PEOPLE GIRLS Ft. Dylan Mulvaney | Episode 160

Dylan Mulvaney returns to the show this week!! A lot has happened in Dylan’s life since she was last on the podcast almost three years ago, and she unpacks it all with Drew in an episode that covers broadway musicals, ayahuasca in Peru, glee club, jet skiing, gay cruises, running into Trixie Mattel at the DMV, and so much more. Dylan’s new book Paper Doll: Notes from a Late Bloomer is out now! Shop Billie in-store and at https://www.mybillie.com https://www.mybillie.com/ Dylan IG: https://www.instagram.com/dylanmulvaney/ Dylan Tiktok: https://www.tiktok.com/@dylanmulvaney Follow The Comment Section on IG! https://www.instagram.com/thecommentsection/ Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy https://acast.com/privacy for more information.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:01Speaker 00

  Welcome to 215 Maple Drive. We just put this property on the market.

• 0:06Speaker 01

  Love the crown molding.

• 0:08Speaker 00

  Oh, wait until you see the walk-in closets and the bathroom tile.

• 0:12Speaker 01

  Does it have Verizon FiOS? You know, 100% fiber internet?

• 0:16Speaker 00

  No FiOS, but it looks like it's got cable. Let's check out the kitchen.

• 0:19Speaker 01

  No FiOS? Yeah... no thank you.

• 0:23Speaker 00

  Don't you want to see the rest? Okay, bye-bye.

• 0:25Speaker 02

  Get Verizon FiOS, because when you're moving, it's 100% or nothing.

• 0:30Speaker 03

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• 1:02Drew Afualo?

  This episode of the comment section is presented by Billie. Taking care of yourself is very healing, like just a hot shower when you're feeling stressed about work or some cringe encounter can make you feel so much better. Billie gets that, and it's why they make amazing products for every step of your routine. Their award-winning razor gives you a super smooth shave, while their hydrating body wash and lotion helps nourish your skin. And their aluminum-free DOs keep you smelling fresh for 24 hours. You've got your reasons, Billie's got your routine. Shop in-store and at mybillie.com.

• 1:36Speaker 05

  You're a trans woman-

• 1:38Drew Afualo?

  That being said-

• 1:38Speaker 05

  And you want to feel like a woman? Go on a gay cruise. That is what we should be prescribing.

• 1:45Drew Afualo?

  You said I've never been more aware.

• 1:47Speaker 05

  Don't take our hormones away, but also, insurance should be covering gay cruises for the dolls.

• 1:58Drew Afualo?

  Hey everyone and welcome back to another episode of the comment section show. Sorry, me, your favorite, everybody knows me, who cares about me. Onto the guest. Today, we have another iconic all-star episode for you all. The one, the only, the talented, the beautiful, the published, Dylan Mulvaney.

• 2:13Speaker 05

  Hey. Are you ready?

• 2:18Drew Afualo?

  I know, it sounds like I'm introducing you at WWE, huh?

• 2:21Speaker 05

  I mean, that's what 2025 is, baby.

• 2:23Drew Afualo?

  Right.

• 2:23Speaker 05

  It's mayhem.

• 2:24Drew Afualo?

  That's where we're gonna go next. We're gonna take another, another thing next.

• 2:27Speaker 05

  I can't wait. I brought you a little something.

• 2:29Drew Afualo?

  Oh my gosh, please, let's see it.

• 2:31Speaker 05

  You ever tried a Percy Pig?

• 2:32Drew Afualo?

  I've never had one.

• 2:33Speaker 05

  Okay, so these are from the UK where we're inevitably gonna have to move when shit becomes Handmaid's Tale.

• 2:40Drew Afualo?

  Alright, for audio listeners, I'm currently taking a Percy Pig suite. I'm gonna eat it on camera.

• 2:45Speaker 05

  ASMR?

• 2:46Drew Afualo?

  ASMR, yeah.

• 2:47Speaker 05

  You've never had anything like it? You like a, they call them fizzy's, but you like sour?

• 2:51Drew Afualo?

  Yeah. They say sour is fizzy. This just made so much saliva in my mouth.

• 2:56Speaker 05

  That's crazy, right?

• 2:57Drew Afualo?

  It's really good.

• 2:58Speaker 05

  There's nothing like it in America.

• 3:01Drew Afualo?

  That's true.

• 3:01Speaker 05

  I think it's because there's less processed stuff, but I like processed. I prefer it.

• 3:06Drew Afualo?

  Me too. You know what's funny is, that's from the UK, and I was starting a war with them over their food when I went over to London for the first time. But it was their hot cuisine, not their snacks. I'm a big fan of their snacks. I think they nailed snacks.

• 3:19Speaker 05

  But, the warm stuff.

• 3:22Drew Afualo?

  Yeah.

• 3:22Speaker 05

  Bad.

• 3:23Drew Afualo?

  Yeah, they're pissing me off a little bit.

• 3:25Speaker 05

  I eat Chipotle over there every day. I'm not kidding.

• 3:28Drew Afualo?

  That's actually so real.

• 3:30Speaker 05

  It's so healthy for me, and, um...

• 3:33Drew Afualo?

  Yeah, you do kinda eat like Buddy the Elf.

• 3:35Speaker 05

  So bad.

• 3:36Drew Afualo?

  A little bit, yeah.

• 3:37Speaker 05

  And I've got, well, actually, the one healthy thing, I did bring my own BYOB, which was a Grape Zevia.

• 3:42Drew Afualo?

  That's true.

• 3:43Speaker 05

  That's what's in here.

• 3:44Drew Afualo?

  And she brought me one too, and I put it in my room.

• 3:46Speaker 05

  But it does throw me with drinking grape soda that isn't purple.

• 3:50Drew Afualo?

  Right.

• 3:51Speaker 05

  Cause that should also be...

• 3:52Drew Afualo?

  Processed.

• 3:53Speaker 05

  Thank you.

• 3:53Drew Afualo?

  Yeah.

• 3:53Speaker 05

  And, um, but these pair really well together. Also recommend the hot rolled chips from Trader Joe's with this. That's a full meal.

• 4:00Drew Afualo?

  Right.

• 4:01Speaker 05

  And I think if I, we could just be sending me the Trader Joe's chips. I'm getting a place in... UK.

• 4:06Drew Afualo?

  Oh, beautiful.

• 4:07Speaker 05

  There for a while.

• 4:08Drew Afualo?

  You thrive over there.

• 4:09Speaker 05

  I love.

• 4:09Drew Afualo?

  In Europe, in general.

• 4:10Speaker 05

  The dating.

• 4:11Drew Afualo?

  You're a European girl, I feel like.

• 4:13Speaker 05

  Oh, my God, the dual citizenship, the babies with accents. All happening. It's all happening.

• 4:19Drew Afualo?

  Life comes at you fast.

• 4:20Speaker 05

  And then me having to fly back in 50 years because we're gonna host like Fashion Police with like Tefi when we're like 75 years old.

• 4:25Drew Afualo?

  Absolutely.

• 4:26Speaker 05

  I can see it.

• 4:26Drew Afualo?

  When we're even more annoying.

• 4:27Speaker 05

  I can see it now.

• 4:30Drew Afualo?

  I see our future and it is so bright. I can see it so clearly.

• 4:33Speaker 05

  So clear.

• 4:33Drew Afualo?

  When I was like, really dogging out the the Brits for their cuisine, it was mostly just like, uh, an English breakfast because I was really excited to try one.

• 4:42Speaker 05

  Mm hmm.

• 4:43Drew Afualo?

  And.

• 4:43Speaker 05

  Beans?

• 4:44Drew Afualo?

  Yeah, the beans, I think, are trash, but like, it's everything else.

• 4:47Speaker 05

  You're gonna, I'm trying to go over there now and be accepted. You're about to really mess this up.

• 4:53Drew Afualo?

  Before you go, let me say something.

• 4:54Speaker 05

  Are we still not dropping the F-bomb on this one?

• 4:56Drew Afualo?

  No, you can, yeah.

• 4:57Speaker 05

  Oh, fuck, yeah.

• 5:01Drew Afualo?

  Wait, I have so much we have to catch up on with you.

• 5:03Speaker 05

  I have not been on this show since like day 173.

• 5:05Drew Afualo?

  Girl, and that's an exact day. I know.

• 5:08Speaker 05

  That.

• 5:08Drew Afualo?

  Really takes me back.

• 5:09Speaker 05

  We aren't, we aren't counting anymore. No longer.

• 5:15Drew Afualo?

  You said Days of Girlhood. I haven't heard that name in so long.

• 5:17Speaker 05

  These are the days, bitch. A lot has happened since I saw you.

• 5:22Drew Afualo?

  It has. Let's catch up.

• 5:24Speaker 05

  Okay.

• 5:24Drew Afualo?

  What's new? What's tea with you, other than the brunette hair?

• 5:27Speaker 05

  Um, you know, trans rights are not looking so hot.

• 5:30Drew Afualo?

  Right.

• 5:30Speaker 05

  Oh, my God, I was supposed to go on a date last night and, um, I'm really popping around here. ADHD, baby. Welcome.

• 5:38Speaker 05

  I was supposed to go on a date and we matched on Raya. He's from Sweden, actually.

• 5:42Drew Afualo?

  Okay, tea.

• 5:43Speaker 05

  So you're from Sweden?

• 5:44Drew Afualo?

  Me?

• 5:45Speaker 05

  Did you say same?

• 5:46Drew Afualo?

  No, I said tea.

• 5:47Speaker 05

  Oh, I was like, wow.

• 5:48Drew Afualo?

  Do I look like a person?

• 5:52Speaker 05

  So then, um, he was like, I, I didn't want to give him a whole night, so I said, you could, we can get a drink after my dinner with friends. So I go to the dinner with friends, isn't responding. I get in the car home, didn't hear from him. I'm home. He says, okay, let's meet up. And then I said, it's not worth it.

• 6:08Drew Afualo?

  Right, period.

• 6:09Speaker 05

  Because I'm not gonna go out of my way.

• 6:11Drew Afualo?

  Absolutely, and I'm happy for you.

• 6:12Speaker 05

  That's kind of what I've learned since being on this podcast.

• 6:15Drew Afualo?

  Yeah, bitch.

• 6:15Speaker 05

  I'm not gonna go out of my way for men.

• 6:17Drew Afualo?

  No, and why would you? He wasn't going out of his way to be mindful of timing.

• 6:20Speaker 05

  No, he had hours to to respond on that app.

• 6:23Drew Afualo?

  Right, and you're already, you're done.

• 6:25Speaker 05

  You're so lucky you don't have to be on there.

• 6:26Drew Afualo?

  I know.

• 6:27Speaker 05

  Scariest place.

• 6:28Drew Afualo?

  I'm counting my, counting my blessings. Trust me, I am.

• 6:30Speaker 05

  Oh my god, wait, engaged?

• 6:32Drew Afualo?

  Oh, yes.

• 6:33Speaker 05

  Honey!

• 6:34Drew Afualo?

  Since then, we're engaged.

• 6:35Speaker 05

  Oh, I know. That's a beautiful ring. Wow.

• 6:39Drew Afualo?

  You did a great job.

• 6:40Speaker 05

  Last time I saw you was Meghan Trainor concert.

• 6:42Drew Afualo?

  Yes.

• 6:43Speaker 05

  Where?

• 6:43Drew Afualo?

  We were both at Meghan Trainor's concert.

• 6:45Speaker 05

  I got a concert, or I got a shout out with Jojo Siwa. She's like, do you remember all that bass? She's like, "Oh my god, Jojo! Dylan!" And I was like, that's when you read it.

• 6:52Drew Afualo?

  Yeah, Meghan didn't shout me out. Thanks, Meghan.

• 6:54Speaker 05

  Yeah, fuck.

• 6:56Drew Afualo?

  No, but she did let me bring ten people, so give and take.

• 6:59Speaker 05

  You do sometimes bring a crew. I brought multiple books, knowing that the family would be here today.

• 7:04Drew Afualo?

  That is true. Dylan brought a book for each of us.

• 7:07Speaker 05

  Yeah, had to.

• 7:08Drew Afualo?

  That's so sweet. I love that that's becoming a moniker for me. I do want to talk about your one woman show.

• 7:13Speaker 05

  Oh, my god.

• 7:14Drew Afualo?

  Because I'm so fucking happy for you, but I would love to know how that came about.

• 7:18Speaker 05

  Okay, well, I, it was at the Edinburgh Fringe Festival.

• 7:20Drew Afualo?

  Yes.

• 7:20Speaker 05

  I was feeling very sad, uh, following Beer Gate, which also,

• 7:24Drew Afualo?

  I know.

• 7:25Speaker 05

  like randomly happened while, since doing this pod.

• 7:27Drew Afualo?

  I know. We've lived a thousand lives since the last time.

• 7:31Speaker 05

  I mean, a lot has happened. So I knew that I wanted to get back into theater. That was where I started. It's my favorite thing in the world.

• 7:39Drew Afualo?

  Yes.

• 7:39Speaker 05

  And, but I knew that if I had written a show, especially if it was like gonna talk about parts of my life or transness, that people, like, the media would probably just tear it apart.

• 7:49Drew Afualo?

  Right.

• 7:49Speaker 05

  So I needed to find a safe place, and that was the Edinburgh Fringe Festival. Do you, will you say Edinburgh for me?

• 7:55Drew Afualo?

  Edinburgh.

• 7:56Speaker 05

  Nice. That's so close.

• 7:57Drew Afualo?

  Right.

• 7:59Speaker 05

  And, and so I was like, I feel like Scotland, I'm gonna go. I had never been there. I'm also the type where like, I, if I want to learn yoga, I'm just gonna become a teacher. Or like, if I'm gonna,

• 8:10Drew Afualo?

  You're full method acting.

• 8:11Speaker 05

  Yes, like, I didn't know what the Edinburgh Fringe Festival, I'm gonna go do a show there and figure it out. And it's like Disneyland, babe. I mean, I was, I was sleeping with the hottest people. I would do, it was Baby Reindeer, all the good parts of Baby Reindeer. It was like, I would have- My show is at 10pm. I go out to the the fun bar afterwards, my tiny little dresses. And then, um, also, it's funny, I'm doing a lot of book press right now and like sometimes I'm like a little more buttoned up. I knew that if there was one place that I could femme the fuck out, it's this podcast. And so I literally am wearing for for our listeners, I'm wearing like a dress that just has like makeup and other dresses and lipstick and everything. Um, and

• 8:52Speaker 05

  the Edinburgh Fringe Festival, wow, my ADHD woo today. Get ready, babies. I I just, I felt like I felt joy for the first time in a really long time.

• 9:02Drew Afualo?

  That makes me happy to hear.

• 9:03Speaker 05

  Thank you, because I think, uh, that first year of girlhood was so good and there was so much, um, so much goodness came from it. And then it felt like everything went so downhill. I tried to make a comeback with that song, babe, These Are The Days. That didn't go as planned.

• 9:19Drew Afualo?

  And I had your back through that too.

• 9:21Speaker 05

  You did. You you know you're an honorary doll. The way, like, I-

• 9:25Drew Afualo?

  Me and the dolls, yeah.

• 9:29Speaker 05

  We we have each other. And I think that for me doing that show, I remember going out because it was an audience of like 250 people and like they shut down the classrooms in the universities and that's what the theaters are. And so I'm like in a lecture hall and I did like I I finished the first show and I just started crying because I was like, oh my God, I didn't know if I'd ever feel that happy again.

• 9:50Drew Afualo?

  Yeah, like joy.

• 9:51Speaker 05

  Yes. So it it was possible and and so I did, we did a sold out run there. And now I think we're going to bring it to America later this year.

• 10:00Drew Afualo?

  How exciting.

• 10:01Speaker 05

  And so I've been working on that and, uh, it just, it's so crazy too. I think when we first met, that was really the beginnings of our our come up on the internet and now-

• 10:11Drew Afualo?

  We were like right next to each other because we were blowing up at the same time. Yeah, like, so we were holding our each other's hands.

• 10:19Speaker 05

  And I feel like now both of us have done all this other stuff outside of, you know, just these platforms. I want to, because you released a book that went fucking, people bought the shit out of it.

• 10:31Drew Afualo?

  Period.

• 10:31Speaker 05

  Loved it. How about, do you have any advice for me as a first time writer? Like or like going through this, this, you know, the press and the book tour and like, what would you say?

• 10:40Drew Afualo?

  Yeah. I mean, I think for you, because you're my girl, I think the, the biggest thing I would tell you is that it's yours no matter what. And the purpose of art is, is to put it out there. It's not about reviews. It's not about accolades. Those are great and they're wonderful.

• 10:55Speaker 05

  Did you read the, the reviews?

• 10:56Drew Afualo?

  Yeah, I tried not to. Like, I, I mean, I'll say this. I, the only ones I really saw were positive. The ones that I saw that were negative-

• 11:04Speaker 05

  Because it's a fucking great book.

• 11:05Drew Afualo?

  Right. The ones that I saw were, were negative or could be determined as negative, like perceived as negative, were more so things of like people saying, I already knew this. The people who said, I already knew all this stuff. I was kind of like, okay. Cause they're all cis, straight white people. So I'm like, doubt it, but okay. Um, past that, they would say things like, I thought it was gonna be like an insult, like guide, like how to insult people.

• 11:29Speaker 05

  Oh, because they, they just wanted to put you in a box of like, what they thought you were capable of.

• 11:32Drew Afualo?

  Exactly. So it's like a very superficial take on my content is me as a person. So I would say like, not to really pay attention to that and more so to like, why you did it in the first place. Like, that's what I would focus on. Cause I was really, really nervous too about putting it out. Cause it was so vulnerable, which I know, I'm sure yours is too.

• 11:49Speaker 05

  So scary.

• 11:49Drew Afualo?

  Yeah. Cause it's like, you're sharing something that's a piece of you. It's not like, it's not something that you created and it's just like, well, I don't care either way. It's like, literally you're putting, it's like ripping your heart out and putting it on display. And people are like, I don't know, I don't really like it.

• 12:02Speaker 05

  I, well, especially because I think so much of what we give or share is generally free.

• 12:07Drew Afualo?

  Exactly.

• 12:08Speaker 05

  And so I was like, if I'm asking $28 from these people, it better be good.

• 12:12Drew Afualo?

  And mine was 28 too, period.

• 12:13Speaker 05

  Girl. I, I mean, I put shit in there that I can't believe.

• 12:18Drew Afualo?

  Right.

• 12:18Speaker 05

  And so I, I really hope that people get to see another side to me because it's, it's very, you know, dark and vulnerable and, and stupid and all these things. But I also think like, hopefully it's worth it.

• 12:31Drew Afualo?

  Yeah, absolutely. I was gonna ask you about, obviously, Paper Doll. We have it here by Ms.

• 12:36Speaker 05

  Paper Doll, cute book, y'all.

• 12:37Drew Afualo?

  Yes. And it's gingham on the sides, bitch. Get into it. Can you see that?

• 12:42Speaker 05

  I, I just really-

• 12:43Drew Afualo?

  Designs gorge.

• 12:44Speaker 05

  I, well, that's- The thing, if you don't like the words, you will at least want that on your shelf. And, and, under this, you know Taylor has like a Taylor's version?

• 12:54Drew Afualo?

  Yes.

• 12:55Speaker 05

  This is Dylan's version of the cover.

• 12:57Drew Afualo?

  That is so fucking cute. And it's a paper doll. Oh my gosh, and her little outfits.

• 13:03Speaker 05

  And so that was like, the design was, were you, like, was designing it hard for you?

• 13:08Drew Afualo?

  Yeah, I was into it. I was very into it too. Like, especially as a Virgo too. I was very like, well, no. Even like from the minute I sold it, I was like, okay, I know what the, I want the cover to look like.

• 13:19Speaker 05

  This is it.

• 13:20Drew Afualo?

  Literally was like, I know what I want.

• 13:22Speaker 05

  You were saying title is tricky for you.

• 13:23Drew Afualo?

  Yeah, title was the, shockingly, the hardest thing for us to come to the middle on.

• 13:28Speaker 05

  Okay.

• 13:28Drew Afualo?

  Because I was really hard pressed on, I'd rather die alone. That's what I wanted it to be.

• 13:32Speaker 05

  Love it.

• 13:33Drew Afualo?

  Because I was like, it sounds like Jeanette McCurdy's like, I'm glad my mom died. You know, like, snappy, catchy. Because at first my publisher was like, I don't know, it's a little negative. And, and I was like, I know, but that's the thing. It's ironic. And I was like, very married to that title. Even throughout writing it, the first, second, third pass, I was still like, that's the title, that's the title. And then once my publisher read the whole manuscript, front and back, and then the next few passes, he was like, I think the title, that title makes sense after you read it. And he was like, but it's not indicative of what it is when you first, like, see the cover.

• 14:08Speaker 05

  Right.

• 14:08Drew Afualo?

  And I was like, tay.

• 14:09Speaker 05

  And loud is so, it's just like, it catches you.

• 14:13Drew Afualo?

  Absolutely.

• 14:14Speaker 05

  It gets, now, so you feel happy with the decision?

• 14:16Drew Afualo?

  Oh yeah, I'm so happy with the title and the subtitle because I came up with them on my own. Because you know, the titles can be very collaborative too. So that's why I was like, I really want to at least come up with it if I can.

• 14:24Speaker 05

  And then it's weird though, to have, I feel like I usually, like, for my, my one woman show, it was Bag Hagg. I had the title. I didn't know what the damn show was. And I said, that's a great title. And, and.

• 14:35Drew Afualo?

  It's the perfect title for your one woman show.

• 14:38Speaker 05

  And, but girl, couldn't promote it anywhere because of the slur. Got blocked on every app. We're gonna have to figure that out.

• 14:44Drew Afualo?

  Asterix.

• 14:45Speaker 05

  You'd think, they, they won't even allow that. Now, with this one, I originally sold it as Days of Girlhood. Like, this was like, early in my transition. I they were they were like you wanna you wanna write a book and I was like yeah bitch.

• 14:58Drew Afualo?

  Yes, I was gonna ask you about the process.

• 15:00Speaker 05

  So um it took three years. It was so long and I thought it was gonna be one thing and then Beer Gate happened and became and a completely other book.

• 15:08Drew Afualo?

  Yeah.

• 15:09Speaker 05

  Um that I think it's better for it.

• 15:11Drew Afualo?

  Yeah.

• 15:11Speaker 05

  But then, so at first it was Days of Girlhood, then um this amazing writer um at The New Yorker uh named Brock had written this article called Girlhood Interrupted.

• 15:22Drew Afualo?

  Mm hmm.

• 15:23Speaker 05

  Um and I really liked that that title. I was like, ooh, maybe I'll ask Brock if I can use that for the book title. And then I thought I was just brainstorming, throwing words down.

• 15:32Drew Afualo?

  Yeah.

• 15:32Speaker 05

  And I was like, Paper Doll. I was like, the dolls, hello.

• 15:35Drew Afualo?

  Duh.

• 15:35Speaker 05

  Um Paper Doll feels very retro, which is like kind of my aesthetic.

• 15:39Drew Afualo?

  Totally.

• 15:39Speaker 05

  And then I also thought about like the two dimensional aspect of like how people perceive us online and then trying to make it more three dimensional.

• 15:47Drew Afualo?

  Absolutely.

• 15:49Speaker 05

  And then the Notes from a Late Bloomer, it felt kind of like notes I wanted in in there to signify that this wasn't some sort of like polished memoir, because I think it is, you know, to be in your twenties and writing a nonfiction book like it it feels a little self indulgent.

• 16:05Drew Afualo?

  That's exactly what I said. When they kept saying memoir, I go, I'm not old enough to warrant a memoir.

• 16:11Speaker 05

  I know, no memoir for us. You want another Percy?

• 16:14Drew Afualo?

  Oh, I would love one.

• 16:15Speaker 05

  Okay, let's put him in the middle. So I was like, okay, Notes feels like, because there's journal entries in there, so that feels a little scrappy, a little messy.

• 16:23Drew Afualo?

  Right.

• 16:23Speaker 05

  And then Late Bloomer is very much me. Like, I'm still so early in my transition, things are still happening to my body. But the one person, my best friend Lily, who it's dedicated to, I was like, so excited to tell him, like, what do you think of Paper Doll? She was like, mm, kinda sounds like you were like the victim of abuse or like something really dark. And I was like, um, and I asked everyone else and then, but then when I asked him, like, do you like Paper Doll? They'd be like, yeah. And I'm like, does it sound like I'm like the victim of a hate crime?

• 16:52Drew Afualo?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 16:52Speaker 05

  And they're like, no. So finally, last week, she was like, yeah, I think I was wrong on that. Like, it's a good title.

• 16:59Drew Afualo?

  She said, that's on me, that's on me.

• 17:00Speaker 05

  Still goes out to Lily.

• 17:01Drew Afualo?

  But that's a, that's a, you're, oh yeah, and I dedicated it to you, but okay. Uh, I think that's actually a good friend, though.

• 17:07Speaker 05

  So.

• 17:07Drew Afualo?

  A good friend will tell you like.

• 17:08Speaker 05

  We go through all the pros and cons.

• 17:10Drew Afualo?

  Exactly. It's funny too, because when I was. Originally doing mine, it had a completely different title. It was How to Make a Grown Man Cry.

• 17:18Speaker 05

  Oh, love that.

• 17:19Drew Afualo?

  Which like, yeah.

• 17:20Speaker 05

  That's the second one, honey.

• 17:21Drew Afualo?

  Yeah, exactly. And I made sure, because I thought the title was silly and fun. And I remembered, I told my team specifically, I was like, I need you to put working title on there because I don't want it to be called that. Because I don't want it to be about men. Like, I kept in, like, insisting that the title needs to indicate that this is not for men, it's in spite of them.

• 17:41Speaker 05

  Right.

• 17:42Drew Afualo?

  And so even with publishers I met with, I was like, this is not a dating book. I cannot stress that enough. Like, this is not a dating, this is not a dating book.

• 17:48Speaker 05

  They want the dating book, but you didn't give it to them. You gave them something better.

• 17:51Drew Afualo?

  Exactly. Date yourself.

• 17:54Speaker 05

  That is what's tricky too, is when I think people want something very specifically for you and you have to be like, no, this is the thing that I want to make and it's actually going to be better because of it.

• 18:01Drew Afualo?

  Absolutely. And I think that's, that was what I was going to mention earlier when you were talking about, like, this superficially how people perceive us online and how you want to be perceived differently or at least seen differently with this book, which is, that was the goal of mine too. It's like.

• 18:17Speaker 05

  Author, baby. They can't take that out of our bio.

• 18:19Drew Afualo?

  Exactly.

• 18:20Speaker 05

  That's their, they'd have to burn them.

• 18:22Drew Afualo?

  And now it's in my Instagram bio.

• 18:23Speaker 05

  Well, I did write, this was fucking embarrassing. I, I've got to stop swearing. I'm, you know.

• 18:28Drew Afualo?

  Keep swearing, I don't give a fuck.

• 18:29Speaker 05

  No, but I was supposed to, I haven't even done my 2025 vision board yet because.

• 18:33Drew Afualo?

  I know, you're on, you're late on the come up.

• 18:36Speaker 05

  Well, honey, I mean, this year, this year already.

• 18:38Drew Afualo?

  It's been a year.

• 18:39Speaker 05

  But I was like, let's feel it out before we make any rash decisions here. And one of them was going to be to swear less. So maybe I'm just really getting it out there before I put that up on the board.

• 18:49Drew Afualo?

  Yeah, you're, you're like exercising the demon.

• 18:51Speaker 05

  Amen. Um, and I think as like an author now, like, I put in there, I was like, I hope these words on this page last longer than the videos on my TikTok profile.

• 19:03Drew Afualo?

  Amen.

• 19:03Speaker 05

  Then they delete the app for a second. I mean, I wish you could have seen, like, I was like, this was, this was supposed to be like 50 years from now, like, like, you know, some love letter to this app that once existed, not like nostalgia today. So that was really stressful, but we got her back. We're in limbo.

• 19:21Drew Afualo?

  Right, we're tentative.

• 19:22Speaker 05

  We're figuring that out. And I just think like, at least now, those videos could, you know, go up at any minute. Who knows where they go into video heaven. But the books, they're gonna have to burn them if they really don't want them that much.

• 19:36Drew Afualo?

  Absolutely. And I think too, you, and I already know this about you, because I actually do know you in real life, unlike people online, but we are so much more than what we were, what we got big for, is what I'll say. Like, we are so much more, as is everyone who has a platform, like, the people are, like you said, multi-dimensional. They're not two-dimensional like paper dolls.

• 19:58Speaker 05

  Seeing you now on these carpets and like, talking to all these people and coming out with those other projects, I'm like, yes, yes, yes, because you do get to show all these other sides to yourself.

• 20:07Drew Afualo?

  Right. That's how I felt when I saw your one-woman show. And you know what I will say is, I was so happy for you, for so many reasons. Other than, the first happiness I felt was really like, you truly looked like you were enjoying yourself, and that made me happy because I know how hard it was for you. So I want to give you flowers for that first. But second of all, I love seeing women thrive in their art form, like, what they're supposed to do. Born to do. That's how I feel about you, seeing you on Broadway, like, truly.

• 20:36Speaker 05

  I wanted to ask you, of all the things now that you've tried, what is your absolute favorite top thing to do of the multi-hyphenate?

• 20:44Drew Afualo?

  Ooh.

• 20:48Speaker 03

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• 21:21Drew Afualo?

  Probably hosting.

• 21:22Speaker 05

  Like carpets?

• 21:23Drew Afualo?

  Yeah, or this. Yeah, hosting in any capacity, I would say.

• 21:26Speaker 05

  Having the conversation.

• 21:27Drew Afualo?

  Yeah, I'm getting into acting this year. I have been talking about that. You too?

• 21:30Speaker 05

  Well, yes, but I'm thinking, what if you go do a one woman show? What if you write it?

• 21:35Drew Afualo?

  Girl, I'm not like you though. I don't have the voice.

• 21:37Speaker 05

  We'll work on it.

• 21:39Drew Afualo?

  Yeah, all my-

• 21:40Speaker 05

  Harmonize, ready?

• 21:44Drew Afualo?

  She said, "We'll work on it. We'll work on it." It's funny, because I have so many friends who are artists, whether they're like pop artists, vocalists, writers, all of the above or Broadway stars, doesn't matter. And every single one of them is like, "I bet. I bet. You can see, you just need the training." I'm like, "You guys aren't listening to me."

• 22:00Speaker 05

  You think it's not worth the money?

• 22:02Drew Afualo?

  I'd say it'll be a waste of my money and everyone's time.

• 22:05Speaker 05

  I don't know. They're really, they're putting some people up there right now that-

• 22:09Drew Afualo?

  Doesn't. Let me sing like Lin-Manuel Miranda.

• 22:12Speaker 05

  Oh, Honey Hamilton, that's great.

• 22:13Drew Afualo?

  Or The Rock.

• 22:14Speaker 05

  Get ya.

• 22:15Drew Afualo?

  Yeah.

• 22:16Speaker 05

  Love it.

• 22:16Drew Afualo?

  I'm saying, I'm like, let me do Toxic.

• 22:18Speaker 05

  What's your dream musical? Well, first of all, let's go back. Favorite musical?

• 22:21Drew Afualo?

  I-

• 22:22Speaker 05

  Uh oh.

• 22:23Drew Afualo?

  And I actually saw that you love this one. Legally Blonde's one of my favorite.

• 22:26Speaker 05

  Oh.

• 22:28Drew Afualo?

  On Broadway.

• 22:28Speaker 05

  You'd get a Percy Pig for that. Babe.

• 22:32Drew Afualo?

  That is one of my favorite Broadway musicals.

• 22:35Speaker 05

  It's a perfect musical.

• 22:36Drew Afualo?

  It's so perfect. From top to bottom, discography, top to bottom.

• 22:39Speaker 05

  It's a listen all the way through.

• 22:41Drew Afualo?

  Laura Bell Bundy, yeah.

• 22:42Speaker 05

  So, they, oh my god.

• 22:44Drew Afualo?

  Yeah.

• 22:45Speaker 05

  Oh my god. Being in Los Angeles in a place where someone knows Laura Bell Bundy's name.

• 22:49Drew Afualo?

  Yeah, girl.

• 22:49Speaker 05

  Thank you.

• 22:50Drew Afualo?

  I know all about her.

• 22:51Speaker 05

  So, wow. I really want to do a trans Legally Blonde musical where there's a trans Elle. Maybe it's me, maybe it's not. A Paulette would be like her trans elder that's like helping her navigate. And then a trans Emmett that's like, babe, you're, you're trying to be one of them, but you're one of us.

• 23:07Drew Afualo?

  Love that.

• 23:08Speaker 05

  I think it'd be so good.

• 23:10Drew Afualo?

  And I think you should be Elle.

• 23:11Speaker 05

  Maybe like-

• 23:12Drew Afualo?

  Makes sense.

• 23:12Speaker 05

  Maybe you're Vivian. Are you the turf?

• 23:14Drew Afualo?

  I would love to be Vivian. I'll be a turf.

• 23:17Speaker 05

  That's the one, the one time in your life that you're just like, fucking fuck this trans girl. Oh my god.

• 23:22Drew Afualo?

  Let me be in the chorus. Actually, I take it back. Let me be in the chorus.

• 23:25Speaker 05

  Oh, that's a good musical.

• 23:26Drew Afualo?

  Yeah, I would say Legally Blonde, The Color Purple is one of my favorite ones.

• 23:29Speaker 05

  Any dream role for you? Like, what, what kind of acting do you want to do? Like, what kind of role?

• 23:33Drew Afualo?

  If honestly in acting, I would love to do-

• 23:35Speaker 05

  Oh my god, wait. The Color Purple is my favorite musical that-

• 23:39Drew Afualo?

  Is it?

• 23:40Speaker 05

  But starring Cynthia Rebo.

• 23:41Drew Afualo?

  Yes.

• 23:42Speaker 05

  Oh. I can't with you.

• 23:44Drew Afualo?

  That's why I said we're twins. We're literally, The Color Purple's one of my favorite musicals too, specifically with Cynthia Revo. And the year she won her Tony, I watched her perform it live at the Tonys a million times. Back in 2016.

• 23:54Speaker 05

  You're a theater girl.

• 23:54Drew Afualo?

  Yes, I am.

• 23:56Speaker 05

  Oh.

• 23:56Drew Afualo?

  I just don't have the chops.

• 23:58Speaker 05

  I woke up this morning and thought, okay, we're going to the mainstream, you know? And then I'm sitting here, bitch, I'm on 42nd Street in Times Square right now, shuffling off to Buffalo.

• 24:10Drew Afualo?

  You know what's a great one? Six.

• 24:11Speaker 05

  Oh.

• 24:12Drew Afualo?

  I love Six.

• 24:13Speaker 05

  Oh.

• 24:17Speaker 05

  My best friends wrote that.

• 24:18Drew Afualo?

  Really?

• 24:19Speaker 05

  Yes.

• 24:19Drew Afualo?

  Six is one of my favorite musicals. I took my whole family to go see it because not everyone.

• 24:24Speaker 05

  Divorced.

• 24:25Drew Afualo?

  Not.

• 24:26Speaker 05

  Bad.

• 24:26Drew Afualo?

  Girl.

• 24:27Speaker 05

  Died.

• 24:28Drew Afualo?

  Start to finish, I recommend Six to everyone who's like, if they're not a big fan of musical theater. I love musical theater, but like.

• 24:35Speaker 05

  Pitch for you. I think it's me, you, next to your Edinburgh Fringe, two, the musical.

• 24:40Drew Afualo?

  Yeah.

• 24:40Speaker 05

  And it's two wives of Henry VIII.

• 24:44Drew Afualo?

  Yeah.

• 24:45Speaker 05

  We cycle through.

• 24:46Drew Afualo?

  Yeah, totally.

• 24:47Speaker 05

  We could.

• 24:48Drew Afualo?

  I think so. I'm in. And I always recommend Six because when people aren't really huge fans of musical theater, I'm like, you'll enjoy Six because it's all, it's just a concert.

• 24:58Speaker 05

  In and out, 85 minutes.

• 24:59Drew Afualo?

  Exactly. It's real quick.

• 25:01Speaker 05

  You got the happy moments, you got the sad ones.

• 25:03Drew Afualo?

  And it's funny as fuck.

• 25:05Speaker 05

  Girl, power.

• 25:06Drew Afualo?

  Absolutely. And it's so entertaining. Like, I took everyone in my family, even, and my dad doesn't really care for theater just because like he, I don't know why, he just doesn't enjoy it. Even my man is like, yeah, that's cool, whatever. They were having a blast.

• 25:18Speaker 05

  With it?

• 25:18Drew Afualo?

  Yeah, they loved it. And I was like, yeah, exactly. I always recommend it.

• 25:22Speaker 05

  That started at the Edinburgh Fringe Festival.

• 25:23Drew Afualo?

  Did it really? I did not know that.

• 25:25Speaker 05

  Toby and Lucy wrote it. I'm so happy. And then they just, actually, you would love this one. They just wrote a musical called Why Am I So Single? And it's like, it's us, girl.

• 25:34Drew Afualo?

  Oh my God, I'm so excited. I'm so excited. Also, I haven't seen The Notebook on Broadway, but I heard it's beautiful.

• 25:39Speaker 05

  Closed already, honey.

• 25:40Drew Afualo?

  I know.

• 25:41Speaker 05

  If this is love.

• 25:42Drew Afualo?

  Yeah.

• 25:43Speaker 05

  I'm, Ingrid Michaelsen, who wrote that one, wrote a song for my show.

• 25:46Drew Afualo?

  And I love her too.

• 25:48Speaker 05

  Wow. We really.

• 25:49Drew Afualo?

  I'm balls deep in that shit, girl.

• 25:51Speaker 05

  Wish we lived a lot closer to each other.

• 25:53Drew Afualo?

  Oh, me too. I know. We do have to go see a show because I haven't seen like husked. Is that what it is?

• 25:59Speaker 05

  Shucked?

• 26:00Drew Afualo?

  A shuck.

• 26:00Speaker 05

  Not husked. That.

• 26:03Drew Afualo?

  Oh. I know it's corn.

• 26:04Speaker 05

  No, honey. I think husked is the name of your musical.

• 26:09Drew Afualo?

  That's mine.

• 26:09Speaker 05

  Or your second book.

• 26:10Drew Afualo?

  Sorry, working title, working title.

• 26:12Speaker 05

  Working title that we have to put working titles so people know.

• 26:15Drew Afualo?

  But I know Alex Newell.

• 26:17Speaker 05

  Oh my, that voice.

• 26:19Drew Afualo?

  It's unbelievable.

• 26:20Speaker 05

  So that's you too, just two voice lessons.

• 26:22Drew Afualo?

  There you go. That's what I was like, yeah, I know, me, me so. But see, that's why I love that we're, we're theater girls.

• 26:29Speaker 05

  We're, we're in it.

• 26:29Drew Afualo?

  Yeah, we're in it. I used to watch the, the Legally Blonde musical. I used to watch on like a pirated, recorded version.

• 26:34Speaker 05

  The MTV version?

• 26:36Drew Afualo?

  Yeah.

• 26:37Speaker 05

  Did you ever watch the reality show where they?

• 26:39Drew Afualo?

  Yes, where they auditioned.

• 26:41Speaker 05

  Too good.

• 26:44Speaker 05

  Too good, girl.

• 26:45Drew Afualo?

  I would love to know when you were doing your one woman show, what was the hardest part and what was the coolest part?

• 26:51Speaker 05

  Okay.

• 26:52Drew Afualo?

  Because that is such a huge feat and accomplishment to do a one woman show. And I saw nothing but wonderful reviews about it.

• 26:58Speaker 05

  I got five stars from the Scotsman, which was the biggest thing you could get. Okay.

• 27:01Drew Afualo?

  That's crazy.

• 27:02Speaker 05

  I would say the hardest part was like, uh, I, I, I basically didn't sleep for like, I'm, I wrote it three weeks before it started.

• 27:11Drew Afualo?

  That's crazy.

• 27:12Speaker 05

  Do you procrastinate?

• 27:13Drew Afualo?

  Yes, all the time.

• 27:14Speaker 05

  You have no idea.

• 27:15Drew Afualo?

  And you, and if you have ADHD, I know it goes crazy, the procrastination.

• 27:18Speaker 05

  And, and I swear to God, it will be better because I'm not doing it right now. But then.

• 27:24Drew Afualo?

  That's what I tell myself too. I work better under pressure.

• 27:27Speaker 05

  And I cut it close, bitch. Oh, we're grinding it. And, um, I remember like I was in London about like, it was like a week before the show started and there felt like there's something missing. And I'm like, should I write in, should we write another song? And they're like, it, it's starting. You can't like, and so I think it was also, oh my God, this is the hardest part. When you've been successful at one thing, like I made these videos. Uh, this, the next thing is tricky because you don't know if it's gonna hit or if it's gonna pop like the other, and everyone's comparing you to that thing.

• 27:59Drew Afualo?

  Yeah.

• 27:59Speaker 05

  And then there was also the theater world being like, who's this bitch? Even though that's where I came from, they're thinking, oh, this TikTok girl is showing up into this like theater festival. So I felt like there was a lot to prove, but I also think that then the best part of it was, um, oh my God, I think like. Going out after every night and like meeting everyone that came to see the show and and I knew that that was my favorite thing to do in the entire world. I knew that of all the things that I've tried, that's what I should be doing the most of. And it doesn't mean that's the only thing that I should be doing, but um, God, it was fun.

• 28:37Drew Afualo?

  It just like refills your cup.

• 28:39Speaker 05

  And and when you do something where you're like, I don't need to be paid for this because in theater, you don't make a lot of money doing that. But I was like, I would pay to do this,

• 28:47Drew Afualo?

  Right.

• 28:48Speaker 05

  which actually, my producers, no, I didn't just say that, but I loved it that much.

• 28:54Drew Afualo?

  Yeah, yeah, absolutely. That's how I feel about hosting. Like I, it wouldn't matter if money came from it. I just really enjoy doing it.

• 28:59Speaker 05

  So happy. I'm about to do my first carpet this weekend. And what kind of like?

• 29:05Drew Afualo?

  Wait, at tag?

• 29:06Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 29:06Drew Afualo?

  Me too.

• 29:06Speaker 05

  Shut up.

• 29:08Drew Afualo?

  I'll see you there.

• 29:08Speaker 05

  Oh, my God. Thank God. Okay, so what are you, what are some tips for that? Like, I've never done it.

• 29:15Drew Afualo?

  I think, well, first of all, you're so magnetic already, naturally, which is is half the battle, I think. It's like, it's an aura. Like, when they, when you're like fun and and welcoming and open, like, they're they're really cool, like typically when they come. But you have a lot of famous friends, so you know.

• 29:29Speaker 05

  What, and do you notice it's like the people that maybe have connected with you online are the ones that want to come talk?

• 29:34Drew Afualo?

  Trust me, I know. It works a million times over.

• 29:37Speaker 05

  And maybe that's why.

• 29:38Drew Afualo?

  It makes you look like a superstar.

• 29:39Speaker 05

  Maybe that's why they're they're hiring us because they they know that maybe they'll want to talk to us.

• 29:44Drew Afualo?

  Yeah, we have like a poll. And then also, we're very like, we're people.

• 29:47Speaker 05

  We're people girls.

• 29:48Drew Afualo?

  People girls.

• 29:49Speaker 05

  Is that a thing? Is that a new one?

• 29:52Drew Afualo?

  Girls for the people.

• 29:52Speaker 05

  I don't know if it's gonna stick, but for this episode, we're people girls.

• 29:57Drew Afualo?

  I don't know if we have.

• 29:58Speaker 05

  Working title.

• 29:59Drew Afualo?

  Working title. Another working title.

• 30:01Speaker 05

  Um, how about, uh, you like a little gimmick too? Like, I've seen you hand out some things.

• 30:06Drew Afualo?

  I love, and they love a gimmick too. Like, celebrities, some, some, like, it depends on branding and like who you go with, but like. Some of them are way more fun than others. Like, some of them are like, yeah, fuck it, do anything.

• 30:16Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 30:17Drew Afualo?

  And some of them are like, no, no, no, no, it has to be real, like, straight to the point, whatever.

• 30:21Speaker 05

  Yes.

• 30:21Drew Afualo?

  But even then, I try to think of quite, like, I do standard questions in the beginning, like, one or two, and then one kind of fun one that

• 30:29Speaker 05

  Like wild.

• 30:29Drew Afualo?

  engages them.

• 30:30Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 30:31Drew Afualo?

  Isn't inappropriate, but is still fun, and like, one of those. So like, when I did The White Lotus, obviously, someone dies every season, so I said, can you look in the camera and give them a 10-second pitch why they should not kill you off this season?

• 30:42Speaker 05

  Oh, that's so good.

• 30:43Drew Afualo?

  And they loved it. They were like, oh my god.

• 30:44Speaker 05

  That was you? You just came up with that?

• 30:45Drew Afualo?

  Yeah, I just came up with it. And HBO was like, sounds good.

• 30:49Speaker 05

  We love it.

• 30:49Drew Afualo?

  Yeah. And the snacks were a huge hit. When I did snacks, I loved it.

• 30:52Speaker 05

  My manager did say, he was just like, try to keep the energy, you know, kind of calm, because I'm like, hey, I'm doing it with the fucking second words and stuff. Like, so that's what we're gonna be working on. You keep, you keep me in check. If you see me with some arms flailing down the aisle.

• 31:07Drew Afualo?

  Yeah. But you've seen, you've seen Tefi host too. Like, Tefi has a lot of energy too. Yeah.

• 31:12Speaker 05

  Love her.

• 31:13Drew Afualo?

  You love, you know what's funny? I've said about Tefi, I've always, because that's my sister, I've literally always say, what you think she's like in real, or what you think I'm like in real life is how Tefi is, and what you think she's like in real life is how I am. Which is like, I'm way more chill than Tefi.

• 31:29Speaker 05

  Oh, yeah, a thousand percent.

• 31:31Drew Afualo?

  Tefi in, in real life is crazy. She's crazy.

• 31:33Speaker 05

  My, my, my funnest nights, it's always too, if I'm like, like, at a work thing or something, and then next thing I know, it's like 4 a.m., I'm at like, a private club, and I'm like grinding on someone, I look over and she's like, yeah, baby girl, yeah.

• 31:47Drew Afualo?

  And she's always there, like, with you.

• 31:50Speaker 05

  And even like, I'll be out with girlfriends who like, are fully straight, and they're like, there's something about that girl that makes me just wanna do something, you know?

• 31:57Drew Afualo?

  I've said before, she's so easy to fall in love with.

• 31:59Speaker 05

  I would rob a bank with that bitch.

• 32:00Drew Afualo?

  Right. She could convince me to do anything. And that's literally why I, I got, the last time I got like, truly fucked up with Tefi was at the People's Choice Awards.

• 32:07Speaker 05

  Yeah?

• 32:09Drew Afualo?

  And it was me, her, and Davis Burleson.

• 32:11Speaker 05

  Oh.

• 32:11Drew Afualo?

  And my sister.

• 32:12Speaker 05

  So good.

• 32:13Drew Afualo?

  And we love Davis.

• 32:14Speaker 05

  Oh, love Davis.

• 32:15Drew Afualo?

  And I saw Chris there too, Chris Olson.

• 32:17Speaker 05

  Honey, Chris is like, everywhere right now as well.

• 32:19Drew Afualo?

  I know.

• 32:20Speaker 05

  That, we all kind of at that same time.

• 32:22Drew Afualo?

  And all got torn the fuck down at the same time, huh?

• 32:26Speaker 05

  We've taken some exits from

• 32:28Drew Afualo?

  Oh, we sure have, queen.

• 32:29Speaker 05

  But But I will say like, I'm so proud of you. And even like, like now I've been in these meetings, I texted this to you, I think she'd be fine for me to share this, but like, I was in a meeting with Amy Poehler, and she like brought you up about how much she loves you and your content and how we need that online.

• 32:47Drew Afualo?

  Which single tear down my, rolled down my eye when you sent it to me. When you sent me a voice note, I was like, single tear.

• 32:52Speaker 05

  But that's, and there was, because I was scared too, that I was like, oh, these people aren't gonna wanna like, work with us, or you know? And they do. They, like a lot of them.

• 33:01Drew Afualo?

  It's crazy how like, the people in the industry that they, that are accredited with being actors, or theater people, or comedians, or what have you. They see a lot of potential in us that sometimes we don't even see in ourselves.

• 33:14Speaker 05

  Right.

• 33:15Drew Afualo?

  And they're like, no, no, no, you're, you're a comedian, you're a star, you're, you're a Broadway star, you are. Like, they, they tell us that themselves. The internet's what tells us the opposite.

• 33:23Speaker 05

  Oh yeah, they're like, uh-uh, why are you, why are you there?

• 33:26Drew Afualo?

  Why are you there? Yeah, always.

• 33:27Speaker 05

  Get her out.

• 33:28Drew Afualo?

  Yeah, why, why do TikTokers get to go to this? Well, because you're talking about it, that's why.

• 33:32Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 33:33Drew Afualo?

  Like, when I was-

• 33:33Speaker 05

  You commented.

• 33:34Drew Afualo?

  Yeah, unfortunately for you, you keep saying that, and that's why they keep inviting us. It's like, uh, when I was in the NBA commercial last year. Like, why? I don't fucking know. They asked me, so of course I'm gonna go.

• 33:45Speaker 05

  I say yes.

• 33:45Drew Afualo?

  Yeah, and so when I went, I even told people after, because obviously men were pissed off, that was my goal. But I've said, whether you like me, like, love me, hate me, you know me, and you'll talk about me, and that's why they picked me.

• 33:59Speaker 05

  Hmm.

• 34:00Drew Afualo?

  It's really that simple.

• 34:01Speaker 05

  So true.

• 34:01Drew Afualo?

  And they hate to hear it. About you, me, and Chris.

• 34:06Speaker 05

  They, Chris is everywhere, and he's just gonna keep being everywhere.

• 34:09Drew Afualo?

  I know. Well, I'd love to know more about the book, uh, what your kind of process was with writing it. I know you said it took about three years, just because you had to kind of pivot a few times, but how was the whole process in, in writing it and everything?

• 34:22Speaker 05

  I, I was starting doing Artist's Way, which was this like journaling kind of thing. You ever did that?

• 34:27Drew Afualo?

  Yeah, Caleb, and you know, you know-

• 34:30Speaker 05

  Oh, I know Caleb.

• 34:31Drew Afualo?

  Caleb. He said, when my friends start reading the Artist's Way, I'm like, I think I'm gonna start checking in on you a little bit more.

• 34:37Speaker 05

  Something's a little off?

• 34:38Drew Afualo?

  He's like, let's get you some shoes with no laces, and let's, you know, let's hang out a little bit more.

• 34:42Speaker 05

  Padded, padded room.

• 34:44Drew Afualo?

  Going through it.

• 34:46Speaker 05

  Oh, honey.

• 34:46Drew Afualo?

  Right.

• 34:47Speaker 05

  I I started The Artist's Way, which, yes, red flag right there. And then I was journaling, like, basically every day of my transition, things that I wasn't sharing online, believe it or not, if there was anything left. Jesus Christ. It's, um, just like photos of my nipples, basically. And that's what I was journaling. And I, so I had all these journals and I thought that was what the book was gonna be. Then Beer Gate goes down.

• 35:10Drew Afualo?

  Yeah.

• 35:10Speaker 05

  I was so sad, girl.

• 35:12Drew Afualo?

  I bet.

• 35:13Speaker 05

  Oh, my God, I I never, I didn't know I could feel that low.

• 35:17Drew Afualo?

  Yeah.

• 35:17Speaker 05

  And so when my publisher was like, okay, we're ready for the book. I was like, oh, one minute.

• 35:24Drew Afualo?

  Occipital.

• 35:25Speaker 05

  And so

• 35:27Speaker 05

  I could not bring myself to like, be like, hey, everyone. Like, there was, I was like, fu.

• 35:32Drew Afualo?

  Yeah, naturally.

• 35:33Speaker 05

  I I I brought on this amazing girl, Marina, who, um, I wrote every single word, but she basically would like, sit with me in a Zoom room while I either cried or I asked her questions.

• 35:44Drew Afualo?

  Yeah.

• 35:45Speaker 05

  And I love that we can give her, Marina, you're everything. And so she kind of was able to start asking me questions that like pulled things out. And, um, then came these essays. So there's a ton of essays that are in between the journal entries. So the timeline goes first year of transition journals and then essays following Beer Gate.

• 36:04Drew Afualo?

  Yeah.

• 36:04Speaker 05

  And I really, it's it's messy. I think some people might be like, honey, where where are we now? But I think that's like, my life is like that. And, um, it's so nonlinear.

• 36:14Drew Afualo?

  Yeah.

• 36:15Speaker 05

  And you need, there's healing and like, so one of the essays is about me doing ayahuasca in Peru.

• 36:21Drew Afualo?

  How was that?

• 36:21Speaker 05

  Oh, would you ever?

• 36:23Drew Afualo?

  Maybe. I've heard it's really transformative. I think it just depends.

• 36:26Speaker 05

  I loved it.

• 36:27Drew Afualo?

  Did you?

• 36:28Speaker 05

  Well, I always knew that I wanted to do it because of Chelsea Handler went and did it. I grew up reading a lot of her books.

• 36:34Drew Afualo?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 36:35Speaker 05

  That was a huge part, too, of like, knowing that like Amy Poehler, Lena Dunham, like, these really funny books by women. That's what I wanted to make. Um, but Chelsea had this like drug doc called Chelsea Does Drugs.

• 36:47Drew Afualo?

  Yeah.

• 36:48Speaker 05

  And one of them was ayahuasca. And I think I was like seventeen when I watched that and I was like, I'm gonna go do ayahuasca in Peru. And then like years went by, I always kind of thought about it. And then this, I was like, I need a quick fix and I need it fast. I was like, get me on that plane. And I'll never forget, it was, actually I write about this with, um, in the book, but I had to go stop at Michaela Noguera's wedding, go to Pato. And, and with Chris Olson, we're like staying together. And I'm like at the table, cause you do a dieta, like as I'm literally eating a Percy pig in my hand right now. You like can't eat any, like any sugars, any carbs, like.

• 37:24Drew Afualo?

  Wow, okay.

• 37:25Speaker 05

  And I, so I couldn't eat any, there was nothing left for me and I don't eat meat.

• 37:28Drew Afualo?

  Right.

• 37:28Speaker 05

  So it was just crazy. So I couldn't eat anything. And then, um, Chris looks over like during the, and you can't drink alcohol or anything. I have like a glass of champagne and we're at the, the reception for, for Michaela. And where I'm like, I have a glass of champagne in my hand, like a bowl of mac and cheese in front of me. And he was like, aren't you like supposed to be on some diet?

• 37:47Drew Afualo?

  Aren't those all those things you're not supposed to have?

• 37:50Speaker 05

  And I was like, babe, if it didn't come out of a microwave, like we're golden. Like that is, it's good for me. And then there was once like, cause that was the day before I took the ayahuasca. Then I get down to Peru that first night and it wasn't working. And I remember being like, it was the fucking mac and cheese at Michaela's wedding.

• 38:05Drew Afualo?

  Thanks a lot, mac and cheese.

• 38:07Speaker 05

  Damn it. So, um, but like, so there are also like crazy stories that I think people wouldn't expect from me.

• 38:14Drew Afualo?

  Yeah, totally.

• 38:15Speaker 05

  They still might see me as this one thing from, you know, years ago on videos. Yeah. And I'm really excited. It's very adult. It's like raunchy. I talk about like my sexcapades. It kind of feels like my Carrie Bradshaw in a way.

• 38:29Drew Afualo?

  Too. Love that.

• 38:31Speaker 05

  And then there's also like, I talk about my family, which is something that I never do online. And I had to share that with, um, you know, my mom and my, it was funny, like my mom like picked apart every single word and like questioned every like phrasing of everything. And then my dad was like, I trust you. He's like, add some more of me. And like, he didn't, he didn't even read it, but, um, but he's in there. Uh, shout out to Mulvaney. But did you have to like, the, any parts of your book that had to do with others? Did you like share that with them or?

• 39:00Drew Afualo?

  Yeah, totally. I, I, especially cause in my book, when I. Wrote about when my sister came out to me. And when I wrote about um me not wanting kids and why. When I wrote about those two things, I had to like share them like obviously with my sister, I had her like. I explained exactly like how I was gonna write it and in what way I was writing it and so that she could consent to it too. Cause I was like, we don't have to include this at all if you feel uncomfortable with it, but I feel like it was imperative in my growth as like. A woman, as an ally, as like just a general empathetic human being. It was like a huge. Um, moving piece for me and becoming a better person and growing and changing and stuff because.

• 39:42Drew Afualo?

  The way I reacted when my sister came out to me wasn't inherently awful. It wasn't like. I hate you. You're disgusting. It but it wasn't good either. It was just unsupportive. And so that's why I felt like. It was important to include stuff like that just because it's it is about you, but it's about your faults. It's about your mistakes. It's about your.

• 39:57Speaker 05

  And hopefully it like it becomes like an example of either what not to do. Or it can help people that are in gonna be in that situation eventually, like not do that.

• 40:07Drew Afualo?

  Absolutely.

• 40:08Speaker 05

  Explain to my mom because like our relationship's been so tricky over the years. But I love her and she loves me and the sort of whole essence of the book is this like relationship like us. Finding each other over and over again. Yeah, and and she felt really frustrated. You know, she was like, oh, you know, I'm being painted this way or and then I was like. No, if you look at the entire piece of this, it's that there's always love there. And I think that is way more important for trans kids and their families and allies to read. So that they know like if they aren't starting from a perfect place, which most of us aren't. That they can eventually get there and that like.

• 40:48Drew Afualo?

  It's possible. Yeah.

• 40:49Speaker 05

  Yes, because I grew up so religious in a very conservative household and the fact that like. We've still managed to figure it out is is amazing and I want to share that with people.

• 41:01Drew Afualo?

  Absolutely. And I think that's more authentic. It's it's real. It's very human. There's nothing more human than fucking up, honestly. There's nothing more human than like. Growth and changing and realizing what once you held so dearly actually doesn't. Doesn't serve you.

• 41:14Speaker 05

  Right.

• 41:15Drew Afualo?

  And like, there's nothing, I think, more empathetic than that is like acknowledging that sometimes two things can be true at the same time. Like, you may have been navigating it the best way you knew how, but it also could have been harmful. And it could have been hurtful, and maybe it's okay that we acknowledge that both of those things happened. And we can, and the important part is where you're at now, like, and like you said, it's so important, especially for the trans community, especially now. To hear stories of families who have made it through.

• 41:43Speaker 05

  And I had no idea that like, this is the world that this book was gonna be coming out into. I'm really scared still that like, I could potentially become like another poster child. Because of the situation, but I just know that like, we need, we need trans joy anywhere we can find it right now. I think that is a hundred percent the only way to win this battle. Find, like, because I know the, if I keep finding success and joy and feeling beautiful. And, you know, owning my womanhood, that what they're saying about me in this community isn't true. Like, it literally proves them wrong.

• 42:19Drew Afualo?

  Absolutely.

• 42:20Speaker 05

  Point blank. And so I think this book is that, like, the fact that I even was able to get published as like a trans woman right now.

• 42:27Drew Afualo?

  Absolutely.

• 42:28Speaker 05

  Very privileged one at that, but I think there's, there's so much joy in this. And I think it is like one of the first ways that I've been able to like, show my audience, like, hey, here's a way that you can support me personally.

• 42:40Drew Afualo?

  Absolutely. And other trans people, the trans community as a whole, like, literature existing written by trans people for trans people.

• 42:49Speaker 05

  Yes.

• 42:49Drew Afualo?

  Is important.

• 42:50Speaker 05

  For me, I don't really care what most people think about this book, but like, I want the dolls to, to be behind it.

• 42:57Drew Afualo?

  Absolutely. And it's one of those things, I think, that makes you so uniquely yourself. Like, you are, and I, and I'm saying this. Openly and honestly, I have, me and Dylan have been good friends for a while.

• 43:10Speaker 05

  We have.

• 43:11Drew Afualo?

  But Dylan is a very, very pure person. Like you are such a good person to your core. A very selfless person.

• 43:17Speaker 05

  I feel, I feel a little less earnest than when I was first on the show. And then I even, I will say too, I think like, I've gotten better at like trying to put up a front a little bit because of uh, just everything that's happened. But at the end of the day, like, we're just like, we're baby girls. Like, like, we're just-

• 43:36Drew Afualo?

  We're just teenage girls navigating the world.

• 43:38Speaker 05

  And I think, um, it's, it's scary. Like, I'm not gonna lie and say I'm not scared. But, um, I am really proud to like, have something like this going out there.

• 43:48Drew Afualo?

  Well, that's because you're fucking brave. You are, and you always have been. You've been brave from the day you started posting until now. And you're still doing it now. Even, even coming back after Beer Gate, shows how courageous and brave you are.

• 43:59Speaker 05

  But what I love about you is that you have boundaries. Like, I think you've gotten really good at being honest about what you need, even from millions of people. And, and they don't always wanna give that to you, but then you demand it, and that's something that I wanna really work on.

• 44:16Drew Afualo?

  Thank you. You know what's, you know what's funny about that is Chris, Chris told me that. And, um, Chapel's told me that. Like, that's a big reason why Chapel loves me and she's told me is because I stand up for myself and she's like, she's told me before, I admire that about you. Like, like boundaries, setting boundaries. With fans or people who hate you.

• 44:33Speaker 05

  Can I tell you a secret?

• 44:34Drew Afualo?

  Please do.

• 44:35Speaker 05

  I got so stoned, like, it's probably like a month ago, and I was down. Like, I was like, I was like, what is going on? Like, but like in a sad way. Like, I thought, I was like, my career, my life, my love.

• 44:50Drew Afualo?

  Sometimes it does that to you.

• 44:51Speaker 05

  It's all bad.

• 44:53Speaker 05

  And then, I, I got a notification. It was like Chapel Rohn liked your video or something. And, you know, we follow each other. And I said, I made something that Chapel Rohn enjoyed enough to like. I say, that's pretty good. And I'm, I'm not kidding, I started skipping through the house. I was like, I, I mean, I was like, the people that I love, enjoy what I'm doing, they enjoy- Me as a person and there's a lot of other people that maybe don't, but those aren't really my kind of people.

• 45:21Drew Afualo?

  Exactly.

• 45:22Speaker 05

  And, and how great that the, the people that I look up to the most, the Lady Gaga's, the Chaplows, like, these are people that support. And, and that are, and like, I, I just hate the idea of wasting energy on, on those haters.

• 45:37Drew Afualo?

  Me too. And I, and I, you know what's funny is me and Caleb actually talked about this, that you and I are two sides of the same coin in a lot of ways. Like, we've talked about how the way you handle hate and any sort of betrayal at all is with beauty and grace and compassion. Like you, you are still being so brave and so courageous and still finding joy, even when people are determined to take it from you. Mine's a little more violent than that, but I was like, I love the way Dylan handles it and Dylan loves the way I handle it. Because we're two different people wishing we could have the other.

• 46:08Speaker 05

  And I want the other, but I, so I have been sitting on an insult that I have been waiting to use. And I don't know who, I'm gonna drop it here, but, and then you'll know when I've cashed in on it.

• 46:20Drew Afualo?

  Right.

• 46:21Speaker 05

  It is. Um, so say who, you know, whoever it is, I want, I want to say, um, suck my girl dick. And stay down there long enough to eat me out when it's a vagina.

• 46:35Drew Afualo?

  And that's a damn good one, Dylan.

• 46:36Speaker 05

  Thank you. I've been, that, that took years to put together.

• 46:40Drew Afualo?

  She's been cooking that one for a while.

• 46:41Speaker 05

  I, I oscillate between vagina and pussy, depending on kind of what the vi-

• 46:45Drew Afualo?

  You gotta read the room a little bit.

• 46:46Speaker 05

  Really do. You never know. And, and so that's, I've got one and I'm ready when there's, oh girl.

• 46:53Drew Afualo?

  That's a great one.

• 46:54Speaker 05

  It, thank you.

• 46:55Drew Afualo?

  That's a great one.

• 46:55Speaker 05

  It feels timely. It feels like-

• 46:57Drew Afualo?

  Topical, relatable.

• 46:58Speaker 05

  Yes.

• 46:59Drew Afualo?

  It's all the points.

• 47:00Speaker 05

  Thank you so much. Wow. I got, got it cleared by the, uh, by the coach.

• 47:05Drew Afualo?

  I said, approved. Got a big green stamp for me. Well, before we move on, I'm gonna, I have some fun facts about you.

• 47:13Speaker 05

  Oh shit.

• 47:13Drew Afualo?

  That's, we're, we're kind of-

• 47:14Speaker 05

  Where do we get those famous birthdays doc call?

• 47:18Drew Afualo?

  Okay, it says, it says you're an official certified vinyasa yoga teacher?

• 47:23Speaker 05

  Yes.

• 47:28Speaker 05

  That was pre-transition days. And I was going through a dark breakup situation.

• 47:35Drew Afualo?

  Right.

• 47:36Speaker 05

  And instead of ayahuasca at that time, that was yoga.

• 47:39Drew Afualo?

  Right.

• 47:39Speaker 05

  And it worked. I taught classes at the Cincinnati Conservatory Music in the Rec Center, no, University of Cincinnati in the Rec Center. I did that for about six months and it was great.

• 47:49Drew Afualo?

  Can I tell you, Dylan is someone who truly like, if she wants to learn a new skill, she just goes and joins a class and learns the skill, masters it, and then goes, "All right, I don't think I'm gonna move on to the next thing."

• 48:00Speaker 05

  I think we're, I think we rap, yeah.

• 48:02Drew Afualo?

  Yeah, I think I got the gist.

• 48:03Speaker 05

  It's done.

• 48:04Drew Afualo?

  Once you become like a certified master in it, she's like, "Yeah, okay."

• 48:07Speaker 05

  We're, that's it.

• 48:09Drew Afualo?

  You're a woman of many hats. I love that about you.

• 48:11Speaker 05

  True fact.

• 48:11Drew Afualo?

  It says on here, "Her dad is known as the Cookie Man around San Diego. He loves to bake cookies and gives them away to people for free. She once said he bakes 500 cookies a week."

• 48:21Speaker 05

  Have you had one yet?

• 48:22Drew Afualo?

  No, of course not.

• 48:23Speaker 05

  Oh my god.

• 48:23Drew Afualo?

  I would know.

• 48:25Speaker 05

  They are, we call them the kitchen sink. They've got everything.

• 48:29Drew Afualo?

  I love.

• 48:30Speaker 05

  Cashews, macadamias, white chocolate, dark chocolate, milk chocolate, peppermint, like anything. Like, sometimes he puts those whole, you know Costco?

• 48:37Drew Afualo?

  Yes.

• 48:38Speaker 05

  The turtles, like the chocolate turtles? He'll put those right in there and just, it's that big. And he makes 500 a week. He's in the program and he's now sober, which he's okay with me sharing. But that's what he's now addicted to is making cookies. What a great addiction. Expensive.

• 48:56Drew Afualo?

  Yeah.

• 48:56Speaker 05

  Because macadamia nuts these days, skyrocketing.

• 49:02Drew Afualo?

  Yeah, the price of nuts didn't go down when they put that fucking bigot in the office? That's crazy. It's crazy how that works. Also, how sweet, your dad just going around handing out cookies.

• 49:11Speaker 05

  It does get a little weird on the beach, though, if like, he like, gives them to like, a three-year-old and mom's like, "Jimmy, come back." "Don't take that cookie." Or people think they're like weed cookies. He's like, "No, that's what I'm running from."

• 49:26Drew Afualo?

  No way, you're misunderstanding. It says you were in Glee Club in high school.

• 49:31Speaker 05

  Oh, you know, that was.

• 49:35Drew Afualo?

  Hurry me like, let me explain.

• 49:37Speaker 05

  We tried to get it up and running there. I was a cathedral Catholic. And for all my San Diegans watching, and I mean, I think they were like flying our football team private. Like, it was, it was one of those schools where like those, the football team was wearing like Versace. And the theater kids were like in, you know, just like painted overalls.

• 49:58Drew Afualo?

  They look like the Les Mis kids.

• 49:59Speaker 05

  It was, but not on purpose. That was the budget. And so we tried to get the, it was the peak of Glee, actually maybe a little, you know, like maybe fifth season.

• 50:08Drew Afualo?

  Yes.

• 50:10Speaker 05

  And so we really tried to get it going. It never took off. And then I think I got out before the house burnt down.

• 50:20Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 50:21Drew Afualo?

  But you had a hand in trying to kick it off.

• 50:23Speaker 05

  Totally.

• 50:23Drew Afualo?

  But you loved Glee.

• 50:24Speaker 05

  And you know what I will say, when I don't master something, I also know when to leave.

• 50:28Drew Afualo?

  Right.

• 50:28Speaker 05

  And I say, we're done.

• 50:29Drew Afualo?

  You abandon ship.

• 50:30Speaker 05

  I do.

• 50:31Drew Afualo?

  You know when to call it.

• 50:32Speaker 05

  I did.

• 50:33Drew Afualo?

  When to fold them. Also, did you like, you liked Glee, the show, right?

• 50:36Speaker 05

  Oh, it's everything. Chris Colfer?

• 50:39Drew Afualo?

  Yeah.

• 50:39Speaker 05

  That falsetto.

• 50:42Speaker 05

  He's, he's, he's interviewing me on one of the Stop Society Book Tour. I'm so happy.

• 50:45Drew Afualo?

  Oh, my God, how fucking fun. My sister and I were on.

• 50:49Speaker 05

  Oh, the Glee podcast?

• 50:50Drew Afualo?

  Yeah, the Glee podcast, which was a blast. And I talked about how I'm not going to teach your boyfriend how to dance with you. They were like, I was kind of shocked. They were saying like, I don't know why so many women like that one. And I said, my theory is that when you watch Darren Criss perform it, because obviously Darren Criss plays a gay man in the show. When you watch it, straight girls are kind of like, hold on a second. He might be eating it up a little bit.

• 51:14Speaker 05

  So good.

• 51:16Drew Afualo?

  They're like attracted to him. So they're like, wait, actually, I love this camera.

• 51:19Speaker 05

  Culturally queer.

• 51:21Drew Afualo?

  When I had Rebecca Black on, we joked about her, obviously, we joked about Friday, like she was talking about it. She was like saying that was her nine eleven, right when she had Friday.

• 51:31Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 51:31Drew Afualo?

  And then I said, true, true, I said, but in my head, I thought of this joke and I forgot to bring it up on the episode. So now I have to bring it up here. Um, at least she got a Glee cover out of it.

• 51:42Speaker 05

  They, they did Friday?

• 51:43Drew Afualo?

  Yeah, they absolutely did.

• 51:44Speaker 05

  They better paid her for that.

• 51:45Drew Afualo?

  That's why I said a Glee cover, small price to pay. I wish I had a Glee.

• 51:49Speaker 05

  I'm still waiting for my Days of Girlhood cover on Glee. Still waiting, reboot.

• 51:54Drew Afualo?

  Tell Chris Colfer to get to it. Okay, what else do we have on here? It says Dylan performed in How the Grinch Stole Christmas at the Old Globe in San Diego when she was just 12 years old.

• 52:05Speaker 05

  Did I ever? And it was 10, bitch. I was from 10 to 14, actually.

• 52:10Drew Afualo?

  Okay, and 2.

• 52:11Speaker 05

  I, I got Danny Who and actually in my book, I talk about how my divorced parents showed up to my, like, uh, my middle school with a bottle of Martin Malice and I thought they were getting back together. And then they were like, no, you're Danny Who in How the Grinch Stole Christmas. And I was like, that's way better than you guys.

• 52:29Drew Afualo?

  You said, okay, okay, I forgive you. That's the one piece of news that could have made this better.

• 52:33Speaker 05

  They fixed it. Um, and I, uh, I, so I grew up around like these gay adult professionals.

• 52:42Drew Afualo?

  Right.

• 52:42Speaker 05

  Also, why did me saying gay sound like, it was like, I was describing them as like gay, like, I don't know why.

• 52:49Drew Afualo?

  Like you were insulting them?

• 52:50Speaker 05

  Yeah, it did feel like that for a second. Um, uh, but it was, it was such a special time in my life. I was Danny Who. I graduated to Teen Wrangler. Um, good musical, honey. You gotta put that one on the list. We'll take a trip down to San Diego.

• 53:04Drew Afualo?

  Right. I gotta get into that. It says you were a huge Jesse McCartney fan as a teen.

• 53:09Speaker 05

  I don't want another pretty face.

• 53:11Drew Afualo?

  About Jesse on Dylan's old social media.

• 53:15Speaker 05

  Uh oh.

• 53:15Drew Afualo?

  And you went to see him perform at the mall?

• 53:17Speaker 05

  Oh, yeah, I went and like it is beautiful soul.

• 53:22Drew Afualo?

  He's got a.

• 53:23Speaker 05

  My, my email was Dylan Loves Jesse at Yahoo dot com. And I was straight and um I I did go during um did you ever watch Stuck in the Stubb- It's a good life, so I also- I'm friends with Brenda's uh Brenda now.

• 53:39Drew Afualo?

  Love.

• 53:39Speaker 05

  So-

• 53:40Drew Afualo?

  Taron Killam as the love interest.

• 53:42Speaker 05

  So hot.

• 53:43Drew Afualo?

  Interesting.

• 53:43Speaker 05

  But um Jesse had a song in that, but I went to the mall performance when he was doing, I'm ready, you're ready, we're ready.

• 53:50Drew Afualo?

  Right.

• 53:50Speaker 05

  Not the top of the top, but I loved him at every face. And you know what? Even this. I tried.

• 54:00Speaker 05

  Oh shit, these purses are getting to me, baby. Um, I I like laced them with something, could you imagine? Um, I tried to hire Jesse for my year two of Girlhood Celebration to sing Beautiful Soul for like the, I'm like, will you come support the Trevor Project? Like, we're like trying to put this thing- Got the sweetest no back that was like, can't make it this time, but like, it is funny that that was basically my sweet sixteen to like be like, can we get Jesse McCartney? And I would have sat on a chair probably and made him sing it to me.

• 54:30Drew Afualo?

  Like a one less lonely girl kinda situation.

• 54:32Speaker 05

  Oh, that's a dream.

• 54:34Drew Afualo?

  Yeah, that, I mean, was Jesse the only one you fangirled over?

• 54:37Speaker 05

  I mean, I loved Zac Efron.

• 54:39Drew Afualo?

  Right.

• 54:40Speaker 05

  I loved um-

• 54:41Drew Afualo?

  Big High School Musical fan.

• 54:43Speaker 05

  Uh, it was my first musical that I was ever in. I played Ryan. I'd be Sharpay now.

• 54:48Speaker 05

  Who are you and you are, who are you?

• 54:50Drew Afualo?

  I'm Sharpay, I think.

• 54:51Speaker 05

  You've got Sharpay energy.

• 54:52Drew Afualo?

  Right, but this time you play Sharpay, I'll play Ryan.

• 54:55Speaker 05

  Oh shit, okay.

• 54:56Drew Afualo?

  Yeah, we're gender band Ryan. I love that for us. I was obsessed with High School Musical when it came out.

• 55:01Speaker 05

  It's everything.

• 55:02Drew Afualo?

  I loved it and none of my friends gave a fuck, but I did.

• 55:05Speaker 05

  You're the only one.

• 55:06Drew Afualo?

  Yeah, I was the only, it's so much so that when I graduated from, I think like, eighth grade, cuz it came out a couple, I think I was in eighth grade a couple of years after it came out, but like I, those little shoes that Gabriella wears all throughout the first High School Musical.

• 55:21Speaker 05

  What are they?

• 55:21Drew Afualo?

  They're like a, the tiniest little like Mary Jane with the tiniest little heel. She wears them with every outfit throughout the entire movie. Go clock it. I wanted those so fucking bad. I was like telling my mom, I have to find these shoes.

• 55:34Speaker 05

  They're not even a kitten heel.

• 55:35Drew Afualo?

  Not even, it's like-

• 55:35Speaker 05

  They're like a, a preemie.

• 55:38Drew Afualo?

  Yeah, it's a preemie heel. It's a, it's a two centimeter high heel.

• 55:42Speaker 05

  Oh shit.

• 55:42Drew Afualo?

  In a clo- a round toe.

• 55:43Speaker 05

  And you thought that was chokehold.

• 55:45Drew Afualo?

  She's eating that shit up. Every little like-

• 55:49Speaker 05

  Oh, I love that.

• 55:51Drew Afualo?

  Yeah, I used to call them clappy shoes as a girl. I was like, I need their heels, but I needed a heel.

• 55:56Speaker 05

  So funny.

• 55:57Drew Afualo?

  That's why I said, like, I've been that girl, that kind of girl forever. Like, I'm like, I need a heel, I need a lash, I need a nail.

• 56:04Speaker 05

  I love it.

• 56:05Drew Afualo?

  I've been one of those.

• 56:06Speaker 05

  Why, I hate that I had to, I gave that up for a second and I'm back, baby. I'm full.

• 56:11Drew Afualo?

  Now, you're making it for last time now.

• 56:12Speaker 05

  I do.

• 56:13Drew Afualo?

  Obviously.

• 56:14Speaker 05

  Oh, my God.

• 56:16Drew Afualo?

  Okay, let's see, this last one, oh, yeah, it says, talks about your solo show.

• 56:21Speaker 05

  Oh.

• 56:21Drew Afualo?

  At the Edinburgh Fringe Festival. What's your dream role? I would love to know what your dream role would be.

• 56:26Speaker 05

  Elle Woods, Legally Blonde, Linda and Wicked.

• 56:29Drew Afualo?

  Obviously, it has to be.

• 56:30Speaker 05

  This is crazy. Do you know Sondheim? Like, do you get Stephen Sondheim?

• 56:33Drew Afualo?

  Yes, of course.

• 56:34Speaker 05

  Um, I would love to do Mrs. Lovett and Annalee Ashford. She was in the, she's on the album for Legally Blonde.

• 56:41Drew Afualo?

  Yeah.

• 56:41Speaker 05

  She's like, dear Elle, she's.

• 56:42Drew Afualo?

  Yeah.

• 56:43Speaker 05

  Um, she played Mrs. Lovett recently. I was so good at that. I would love to do that one day. Um, but I want to go see a show with you now.

• 56:50Drew Afualo?

  We have to go see one together.

• 56:52Speaker 05

  We're gonna. Chris Olsen will come too.

• 56:53Drew Afualo?

  Oh, of course.

• 56:54Speaker 05

  Taffy, but like, she won't care. But she'll, no, she'll be like, I'll be at the bar, meet you after.

• 56:58Drew Afualo?

  Like when we were at Wicked?

• 56:59Speaker 05

  She's back, no, she's backstage, like, like fucking grinding on the stage manager or something.

• 57:04Drew Afualo?

  I know, we look on the stage, she has a role.

• 57:06Speaker 05

  She's in, she's in.

• 57:10Speaker 05

  Ad-libbing everything.

• 57:11Drew Afualo?

  Okay, I'm gonna circle back to your book. Um, what would you say was the hardest thing to write about?

• 57:17Speaker 05

  Ooh, um, I think, uh, Beergate had, I mean, because first of all, I was like, I don't want to get sued, but, uh, also, I, I think, like, to, to try to put into words how, like, disassociation so clearly feels and how, especially being someone that is seen as a very positive person to then try to tell people how that manifests when it goes the opposite way.

• 57:46Drew Afualo?

  Yeah.

• 57:46Speaker 05

  Um, that was tricky and scary, but very, um, cathartic. And I also think there were some parts of my childhood that I had never shared that it's, it's hard. Hard because I also my mom, um, the other day she she was like, oh, you know, can I read a physical copy? I was like, there's parts like, I don't know if I want you reading about like the sex and like, you know, when I was young, like, and she was like, oh, God, you know, and she's like, well, um, she was like, I like the parts where you write about God. Cause I do write about my my relationship with the higher power.

• 58:21Drew Afualo?

  Yeah.

• 58:22Speaker 05

  And I was like, I don't think God would care that much if I wrote about sex. And she was like, I don't know about that. And I was like, well, then why do you make it feel so good? And then, and then she's like, I don't know. And then I was like, why did he put a G spot in a guy's butthole? You know, like, there's so many questions that are and she and she didn't have one. She didn't have an answer. She said, what are you doing for the Super Bowl?

• 58:43Drew Afualo?

  She said, anyways.

• 58:44Speaker 05

  I said, good pivot.

• 58:47Speaker 05

  Well, what's it about podcasts that you come on and you just will say anything? It's fucked up.

• 58:53Drew Afualo?

  It's a real truth serum.

• 58:54Speaker 05

  It's insane.

• 58:55Drew Afualo?

  Yeah, it it goes pretty crazy over here. I feel like with your ability to articulate something like that. I think will be very impactful for a lot of reasons. I hope people who read it are not just people, obviously who want to and need to. I hope it's people too who maybe don't see things like that as like that big of a deal to people like us when they happen.

• 59:16Speaker 05

  Right.

• 59:17Drew Afualo?

  They're like, well, that's just part of it, the way they say.

• 59:19Speaker 05

  They think that you're a character.

• 59:20Drew Afualo?

  Yeah, they rationalize.

• 59:21Speaker 05

  It's like fiction and it's like, there's a real person that's like experiencing these things.

• 59:26Drew Afualo?

  Yeah.

• 59:27Speaker 05

  And I think too, like, it just is breaking my heart. Like, I think, um, the the suicide rates of trans people are up so high right now. And I I remember during that time, it so clearly felt like that was an answer to like the problem. And I hate that that's where my mind went, but it that's feels kind of like where society wants us to go in our minds, because they want us to feel so isolated. They want us to feel like there are no other ways out. And so. If I, like, I'm thinking about Little Dylan, but like, the Little Dylans of today, that like, knowing that there are ways out of this that are not that, and, and, please don't.

• 1:00:07Drew Afualo?

  Yeah.

• 1:00:07Speaker 05

  Um, I, I, oh god, it just kills me what's going on.

• 1:00:11Drew Afualo?

  I know, I agree, same. That's why I think your book is so important. I think your presence in general is so impactful and important in so many different ways. And I feel like, a lot of people don't talk about, like, there are other trans women who are huge names now too as well, but it like, what people, I think, yourself included, only see is like, the end product. Like, they don't see any of the before, or how terrible it was, or how hard it was. It is, it's hard to blaze trails. It's, it's fucking hard to go first. It's hard to be the first, the, the first that people see, the first that people come in contact with, like.

• 1:00:43Speaker 05

  You also want to be the answer for whatever someone's problem is. So you're like, trying to take on all these roles that you're not ready for, or, you know, I'm not an activist, I still don't think of myself that way.

• 1:00:54Drew Afualo?

  Yeah.

• 1:00:54Speaker 05

  And so, that was really tricky too, but, like, now, I feel like, you, didn't, you went to the White House, right, at one point?

• 1:01:00Drew Afualo?

  Yes, I've, I've been to the White House, yes.

• 1:01:02Speaker 05

  She's been to the White House. But, but like, I think like, um, for you, you've done a really good job of like, deciding when and how you want to advocate, and, and you do it so often, but in ways that feel right to you.

• 1:01:14Drew Afualo?

  Yeah.

• 1:01:14Speaker 05

  And I feel like, that for me, it's, it's now being on, on my, kind of, um, own personal choice, and versus it being like, um, someone's telling me that this is what I need to do versus it, me wanting to.

• 1:01:29Drew Afualo?

  Yeah, and, and if the whole point is to avoid performative, performative nature, or, or acts in general, then it has to be natural and organic, in that, in that sense. But I also think too, the understanding of good faith and good people is so warped now, where it's just, it, now, like, nothing you've ever done up until this point matters. It's just, it's almost like the clock restarts every single day.

• 1:01:51Speaker 05

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:01:52Drew Afualo?

  Which I think is fucked up in a lot of ways, like, especially for people who have consistently and fervently cared, like, even with this last election, I still, in, like, a couple weeks ago, got comments about someone saying I never made it clear who the fuck I voted for. Is that a joke? Like, I said-

• 1:02:09Speaker 05

  Hello?

• 1:02:10Drew Afualo?

  I feel like I'm on the Truman Show, because then I think you and I don't have a choice but to be political, because our lives are political.

• 1:02:16Speaker 05

  And what if you did and that person didn't see that video?

• 1:02:19Drew Afualo?

  That's why, "Just look at me, bitch, what do you think?" is what I want to say. That's what I always think. I'm like, "Use your fucking brain." Like, really think about it. Like, actually think about what could possibly be the reason that you would ever think otherwise. Like, just ask yourself that question. And I also think too, in taking my break and everything, because I know you took a break too.

• 1:02:39Speaker 05

  I took a break.

• 1:02:40Drew Afualo?

  I talked to Chris Wilson about it.

• 1:02:41Speaker 05

  In some ways, I'm still on it.

• 1:02:42Drew Afualo?

  Yeah, me too. I feel like it re-centered me in a lot of ways, but it helped me a lot to like, remember why I started doing this in the first place. What I love about it, like, that's why I loved what you were saying about your one-woman show, because it is so important to remember why we started doing this in the first place. Like, we didn't ask for this to happen, it just did. And we fell into it, and we're so grateful and so happy about it, but at the same time, it comes with issues that no one could ever understand how to deal with or navigate. It's just us. Like, we're the only people who can understand. So sometimes when new people come up, I always tell them, "Make friends." Make friends with other creators.

• 1:03:22Speaker 05

  Yes. Ask about, you know, like, how other people are getting paid and what events are... You know, like, yes, because I think, in a way, these platforms probably also want us to be isolated, because then it feels like we have to be alone in turning these products out.

• 1:03:38Drew Afualo?

  Right.

• 1:03:38Speaker 05

  And I don't like being a part of anyone else's agenda.

• 1:03:42Drew Afualo?

  Me too, exactly. And I've said that too. I'm like, "I'm so tired of being used as like, an example, as if I'm not a real person." And I know you're tired of being treated that way too. It's like being treated as like, an idea.

• 1:03:54Speaker 05

  What was your favorite part of the break?

• 1:03:56Drew Afualo?

  Never looking at TikTok.

• 1:03:58Speaker 05

  Oh.

• 1:03:58Drew Afualo?

  That was my favorite part. I had never felt so free. I was like...

• 1:04:02Speaker 05

  Did you feel, like, when it was down for that 12 hours, did you, like, did you feel like a sense of freedom, or did you feel like... What did you feel?

• 1:04:11Drew Afualo?

  I felt sadness, more so for the, all the wonderful things that TikTok has brought into my life. But generally, I was like...

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• 1:04:54Drew Afualo?

  I'll be all right.

• 1:04:56Speaker 05

  Next.

• 1:04:57Drew Afualo?

  Yeah, I was literally like.

• 1:04:58Speaker 05

  Did you get a red note?

• 1:04:59Drew Afualo?

  No, I didn't actually. Yeah, I never ended up getting one. I was, and I think you know this too, Chris, we talked about this, Chris, too, but like, it's always been a vehicle, it's never been the end goal.

• 1:05:09Speaker 05

  Mm-mm.

• 1:05:10Drew Afualo?

  Like you and I, we've talked about that for a long time. Like, we have bigger plans.

• 1:05:14Speaker 05

  It's 50 years from now on Fashion Police.

• 1:05:16Drew Afualo?

  Exactly. Those plans are set in motion, right? And so I was like, it's never been the end goal, it's always been a vehicle. That's how I've been looking at it.

• 1:05:24Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 1:05:24Drew Afualo?

  And for years, I know you have too. So I know that's why I wasn't as like, about it. But I was sad about it, obviously, but also.

• 1:05:31Speaker 05

  I made one of those videos.

• 1:05:33Drew Afualo?

  Me too.

• 1:05:33Speaker 05

  The, oh, I had, you know, like, but that's, I really cared. I didn't confess to anything because I didn't have anything else to confess. I didn't have anything to confess to.

• 1:05:41Drew Afualo?

  Me either.

• 1:05:42Speaker 05

  But I, I did like, I felt so like just sad.

• 1:05:46Drew Afualo?

  I felt sad and I felt sad because I felt nostalgic too. Like I was thinking about the last few years and how much fun I had and like, what it brought me and gave me.

• 1:05:54Speaker 05

  Yep.

• 1:05:54Drew Afualo?

  So I did feel sad, but I was also like, well, I mean, I'll keep, I'll keep going.

• 1:05:59Speaker 05

  Speaking nostalgic, who was your Jesse McCartney?

• 1:06:02Drew Afualo?

  Oh, the Jonas Brothers.

• 1:06:03Speaker 05

  Oh, you.

• 1:06:03Drew Afualo?

  Nick Jonas.

• 1:06:04Speaker 05

  Oh, and you like did the experience with them.

• 1:06:06Drew Afualo?

  Oh, hell yeah, girl. I met them as adults.

• 1:06:08Speaker 05

  Honey, he's gonna be on Broadway.

• 1:06:11Drew Afualo?

  That's right.

• 1:06:11Speaker 05

  You wanna go?

• 1:06:12Drew Afualo?

  I would love to.

• 1:06:13Speaker 05

  We're going to see the last five years on Broadway starring Nick Jonas.

• 1:06:16Drew Afualo?

  And I also love that. Jeremy Jordan in the last five years.

• 1:06:19Speaker 05

  Oh, you love last five years too?

• 1:06:21Drew Afualo?

  Yes.

• 1:06:21Speaker 05

  Oh my God, that song, they, um, they all fuck me up. Jamie is over, Jamie is.

• 1:06:26Drew Afualo?

  Yeah, Jeremy Jordan and Anna Kendrick in the last five years movie.

• 1:06:28Speaker 05

  Oh.

• 1:06:29Drew Afualo?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, exactly. And then I wonder why all my friends are gay, for real.

• 1:06:37Speaker 05

  Like, they're theater kids.

• 1:06:38Drew Afualo?

  Yeah, all of them.

• 1:06:39Speaker 05

  It is weird when gay people don't like theater. I'm like, what? I just went on a gay cruise, like, for like-

• 1:06:43Drew Afualo?

  Oh, my gosh, tell me about the gay cruise. I thought your stories were so fun.

• 1:06:46Speaker 05

  If there was one other woman that should have been on that ship, it was you. I, actually, and your mom. Maybe even your mom more than you. I, um, also, the love that I have for your mom, it just, it knows no bounds. I was on this gay cruise. I got asked to do it, like, three days before. They were like, "Do you have a show?" And I'm like, "Put on a show." And I couldn't do the, the one from Edinburgh because, um, it had a huge set and all these, like, moving things. So I had to write a new one. And so I-

• 1:07:14Drew Afualo?

  Three days.

• 1:07:14Speaker 05

  So I, I'm telling you, the procrastination, honey. I'm on that ship, like, like, with note cards. And, and they gave me the, the Mamma Mia dancers from the ship that were already on there. I picked four of the hottest British ones. I said, "Get back there. Put them in Amazon sailor outfits." I had a little US Navy outfit. That would really shake things up. Um, and, and I went out, my opening song was called "For the Gays," from Death Becomes Her, the musical. And I was like, "I'd do anything for the gays." And, but it was really funny, too, because they came on, like, um, on the loudspeaker the day of my show. And they were like, "Hey, everyone, this girl's really been through it." Um, we kinda, you know, us G's haven't been showing up for the T's so well.

• 1:07:59Speaker 05

  So if everyone could, you know, funnel their way to the Orchid Theater, like, that would be great.

• 1:08:04Drew Afualo?

  She needs it.

• 1:08:05Speaker 05

  Like, who are they talking about?

• 1:08:07Drew Afualo?

  They're like, "Please, she needs it."

• 1:08:09Speaker 05

  It was so insane. And then there, there was like, there was like, two other gals there. I think one was probably a Trumper because she looked at me like I was the Antichrist.

• 1:08:18Drew Afualo?

  Love.

• 1:08:19Speaker 05

  And I get it. I was on her, you know, soil. Like, I was on her turf. Like, she was there first. But then also, um, then there was another woman who had just, like, triple Z tits in the craziest way that I loved. And she was nice to me.

• 1:08:31Drew Afualo?

  Yes.

• 1:08:31Speaker 05

  But then, otherwise, it was these, I thought I was gonna get swarmed, but these men, I was a ghost. I was on the Queen Elizabeth, the haunted ship, because they did not see me. They didn't wanna talk to me, because they're there to meet other eligible bachelors. And that's not me.

• 1:08:47Drew Afualo?

  Right.

• 1:08:47Speaker 05

  Very gender-affirming, I will. I'll say, if you're a trans woman-

• 1:08:51Drew Afualo?

  That being said.

• 1:08:51Speaker 05

  And, and you want to feel like a woman, go on a gay cruise. That is what we should be prescribing.

• 1:08:58Drew Afualo?

  You said I've never been more aware.

• 1:09:00Speaker 05

  Don't take our hormones away, but also insurance should be covering gay cruises for the dolls. I had a time of my life, went jet skiing.

• 1:09:08Drew Afualo?

  Love.

• 1:09:10Speaker 05

  Drove by the nude beach. Some of the gays were really going at it on the beach there. It was so fun. I kind of, I jet skied up to them and they scattered kind of like ants. I was like, no, it's me. And I flashed my tits and they're like, yeah. And the jet skiing, you like to jet ski?

• 1:09:27Drew Afualo?

  I don't mind it. I've been a couple of times.

• 1:09:29Speaker 05

  What's up with that? That was not, we were really cooking there.

• 1:09:35Speaker 05

  This was a nice episode about theater.

• 1:09:38Drew Afualo?

  Right.

• 1:09:39Speaker 05

  And gay people.

• 1:09:40Drew Afualo?

  Right. And common interests like jet skiing.

• 1:09:41Speaker 05

  Yeah, I guess jet skiing is kind of cis straight, like that.

• 1:09:45Drew Afualo?

  It's a real manly thing.

• 1:09:47Speaker 05

  That is kind of though, the like the intersection of like, a lot of people like jet skiing.

• 1:09:52Drew Afualo?

  We're not so different after all.

• 1:09:53Speaker 05

  No.

• 1:09:53Drew Afualo?

  No. At the end of the day, we all love to jet ski, don't we?

• 1:09:56Speaker 05

  We are the world.

• 1:09:59Drew Afualo?

  I loved your story when you said, I've been running around asking each of these gays if any of them knows how to do a French twist.

• 1:10:04Speaker 05

  Oh, my God. And then fucking, well, oh, what was Margie? There's the gal in the spa really cooked it up.

• 1:10:12Drew Afualo?

  Yeah.

• 1:10:12Speaker 05

  She's like, but what, oh, we gotta talk about, we need to be paying the makeup artists on cruise ships a lot more money. Because do you know what it's like to be having to put eyeliner on someone as a ship's going like this? And I was like, you poor girl. Like she, I looked great.

• 1:10:29Drew Afualo?

  Yeah.

• 1:10:30Speaker 05

  But.

• 1:10:31Drew Afualo?

  You did. You looked fabulous.

• 1:10:31Speaker 05

  Thank you so much.

• 1:10:32Drew Afualo?

  And you had the time of your life.

• 1:10:33Speaker 05

  You been on a cruise ever?

• 1:10:34Drew Afualo?

  No, I'm actually kind of afraid of cruises.

• 1:10:36Speaker 05

  What's up with that?

• 1:10:37Drew Afualo?

  I think I just think about the Titanic, since we were talking about it. I just get a little worried.

• 1:10:41Speaker 05

  What, you wouldn't have wanted to go on that one?

• 1:10:43Drew Afualo?

  I don't know. Did something bad happen when that one went out? Yeah, I worry about being stranded at sea. Not my fave.

• 1:10:49Speaker 05

  It is weird when you're like just doing your life and then you're like, we're in the middle of nowhere. There's sharks and mermaids and all sorts of shit down there.

• 1:10:58Drew Afualo?

  But I think on your, on that cruise, I think I would have had fun.

• 1:11:01Speaker 05

  Oh, that's, I think we should do a show, I'm to the musical at six, but. Less than four.

• 1:11:07Drew Afualo?

  We gotta start writing stuff down.

• 1:11:08Speaker 05

  We gotta start writing it. We can put something together. They pay well. The gays do have money. I'm telling you. Good gig. You didn't know. You didn't know about it.

• 1:11:15Drew Afualo?

  No, that's true. You know what's funny? My manager told me that it's pretty common for older acts that were really successful at one time to do nostalgia cruises. So they do like themed cruises and it's just like them and it's everything's themed around them.

• 1:11:30Speaker 05

  Wait, like as a person?

• 1:11:32Drew Afualo?

  Yeah, like it could be a person or it could be like me trying to think of someone like if the Jonas Brothers were like, I'm gonna do Jonas Brother cruise like someone would eat that up.

• 1:11:41Speaker 05

  That you. You would buy that the entire boat. So it was just you. That's so cute.

• 1:11:46Drew Afualo?

  Yeah, I'd be the captain. It'd be a crew of two, you and I.

• 1:11:48Speaker 05

  Wait, you know who could maybe do it? Jesse McCartney. A Jesse McCartney cruise.

• 1:11:52Drew Afualo?

  And you would be the captain of that one.

• 1:11:54Speaker 05

  Honey, and you're my first mate. You're smee bitch. You are smee on the Jesse McCartney cruise.

• 1:12:00Drew Afualo?

  Give you a little shave.

• 1:12:03Speaker 05

  I need it still. That's one thing I will say about since I've been on this show, the stubble is still present. I, God blessed me with a lot of things, but he also gave me a thick head of hair and a thick beard.

• 1:12:18Drew Afualo?

  And you know what, girl? That is your gift. And he took it from the worst men in the world who are transphobic.

• 1:12:24Speaker 05

  Thank you. And you had to give it some to someone.

• 1:12:26Drew Afualo?

  Smited their bloodlines like that baldness forever. I'm gonna give it to Dylan.

• 1:12:29Speaker 05

  Oh, yeah, you're right. You've got great hair.

• 1:12:32Drew Afualo?

  Oh, thank you. I know my man's had a great.

• 1:12:34Speaker 05

  Don't dye it. Don't bleach it.

• 1:12:36Drew Afualo?

  You know what's funny is I did go blonde at one point, not fully, fully platinum blonde, but I took it all the way up to the root, probably in college when I was like 20, 19, 20. But it took me like a year and a half, two to get that high because I was trying to save my hair. And then as soon as it got up there, I was like, oh, hate it. Need to go back. Because I can't fathom going back every like six weeks or so.

• 1:12:58Speaker 05

  Oh.

• 1:12:59Drew Afualo?

  And I saw your video about like you said, the arrogance I had.

• 1:13:02Speaker 05

  It was like a tumbleweed. It was so, and like, and I wasn't like, I had the best hair, girl. I had, I was had the products, you know, the K-18 on standby. Not enough K-18 in the world.

• 1:13:14Drew Afualo?

  Purple shampoo.

• 1:13:15Speaker 05

  Yeah, I'm rough. I'm a rough kind of.

• 1:13:17Drew Afualo?

  That's why I feel like you and I get along so well too, because I'm like, I, I want to take better care of stuff like that, but I don't always.

• 1:13:24Speaker 05

  You know what one of my other favorite things about you? The captions when you're, who's your lovely glam person?

• 1:13:29Drew Afualo?

  Adam.

• 1:13:30Speaker 05

  You have to come up every time with a different way to gas up Adam in the, in the, in the caption. And I'm like, she's gonna run out.

• 1:13:37Drew Afualo?

  And it's always me yelling at him.

• 1:13:39Speaker 05

  It's like nice, but like mean.

• 1:13:42Drew Afualo?

  You know what's funny is he's told me that. He's like, every time you tag me, you write something like, girl, yeah, exactly, exactly. Well, maybe if they learned to get it, they would get it. Nobody's ever fighting.

• 1:13:52Speaker 05

  And then you're like, did you get some follows? And he was like, yeah.

• 1:13:55Drew Afualo?

  Hey, you don't, you don't want the tags anymore. Just let me know.

• 1:13:57Speaker 05

  Fine, fine.

• 1:14:01Drew Afualo?

  Okay, last couple of questions. Well, first I want to say, obviously, we've been joking about how it's been years since we came on the pod.

• 1:14:07Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 1:14:08Drew Afualo?

  But I would love to know what you feel like you've learned or where you, how you feel like you've grown from then until now.

• 1:14:14Speaker 05

  Oh, my gosh. I, I think that I am doing things that I could have never imagined and, and surrounding myself with really good people and, and trying to figure out who those people are. Cause I think when you do pop off, there's kind of a whole new world is shown to you and, and you have to decide what's healthy and what's not.

• 1:14:36Speaker 05

  And I think that I've gone through things that I, I could have also never imagined. I think that purpose is such a weird thing, but I, I do think mine goes back to femininity. And I think especially hyper femininity. That's where I exist and where I love. And, and that like the, I actually, the one other, I was, you know, Alok, our dear friend, Alok.

• 1:14:58Drew Afualo?

  We talked about you and how much we loved you.

• 1:15:00Speaker 05

  Really?

• 1:15:02Speaker 05

  We're, we're dishing it back because

• 1:15:05Speaker 05

  that song Days of Girl had, had come out and it got taken so out of context in all the wrong, wrong ways possible. And Alok was like, you need to go on Drew's pod. And you need to talk about it with Drew. And, cause I was, and then I did, and then you had already talked about it. And I was like, whoa, like, I just feel so connected with you. And I think that there have been so many moments over the last two or three years since I was here that, um, I, I would never believe. And, and then I, I feel. I don't know. You happy?

• 1:15:39Drew Afualo?

  Yeah, are you?

• 1:15:40Speaker 05

  I think so.

• 1:15:41Drew Afualo?

  Yeah, I feel like that's, I think that's maybe what you're saying too is that you feel a lot happier now.

• 1:15:46Speaker 05

  And I'm, I was scared to say it because it's like if I acknowledge that, like, is it gonna be taken away?

• 1:15:51Drew Afualo?

  Yeah.

• 1:15:52Speaker 05

  No, I, I think I'm, I'm in a good place.

• 1:15:55Drew Afualo?

  Yeah.

• 1:15:55Speaker 05

  Oh shit. Is this what it's like?

• 1:15:57Drew Afualo?

  Just kidding. I think given what you've been through, I'm sure it would be hard to believe that you could be happier than you were before that happened to you. But now you're even happier than you ever thought you could be.

• 1:16:08Speaker 05

  Do you ever think about like, if none of this had happened though for you?

• 1:16:12Drew Afualo?

  Oh yeah, sometimes I dream about it in a good way. Like sometimes I think like if I never did this, I could be living anywhere I wanted in a normal way and nobody would ever know who I was and that would be a good thing. But I think when I have those moments, I acknowledge that I'm allowed to feel that way because this is a job that has exposes you in ways you never thought you would ever have to deal with or, or let alone stomach or like go through, be subjected to. But then at the same time, I think if I wasn't doing this, I wouldn't be walking in my purpose, the way that you are too. Your purpose, I think your purpose more than anything is to be yourself and continue to be yourself. Like, like I said, what you do is brave. It is courageous and I admire you for it. It is fucking hard to exist just as you are on the internet.

• 1:16:57Speaker 05

  And I, I slightly changed my um, answer to this last one while you were talking because I feel like I lost my purpose for a second there because I was comparing myself to everyone else.

• 1:17:07Drew Afualo?

  Yeah.

• 1:17:08Speaker 05

  And, and especially I think when you feel um, like you've done something wrong or that something's, you know, you fumbled a situation, then you start to be like, okay, well, I didn't do that correctly. So what is this person doing or what is that? And, and those are the moments that I'm not proud of because I was, you know, trying to be some like fashion girl or you know, do like just not showing up my authentic.

• 1:17:35Drew Afualo?

  To you.

• 1:17:35Speaker 05

  Yes. And so if I had any advice, it was, it would be like, sometimes you gotta put those blinders on, baby.

• 1:17:42Drew Afualo?

  Right.

• 1:17:42Speaker 05

  And you gotta just. Do what you know feels right and because it's not gonna be right by everyone else's standards.

• 1:17:49Drew Afualo?

  Absolutely.

• 1:17:50Speaker 05

  Um, and in comparison really is the thief of joy.

• 1:17:53Drew Afualo?

  Yeah, I agree. I think that's a beautiful thing. And the last thing I want to ask you about your book.

• 1:17:58Speaker 05

  Okay.

• 1:17:58Drew Afualo?

  Is what do you hope people take away from it?

• 1:18:00Speaker 05

  I hope they laugh because I, I really, I do be cracking them in there and.

• 1:18:05Drew Afualo?

  And Dylan's fucking hilarious. Can I just say, I know sometimes people don't associate you with being hilarious because you're so joyous and talented.

• 1:18:12Speaker 05

  I get scared to, to especially joke about like.

• 1:18:15Drew Afualo?

  To crack a joke.

• 1:18:15Speaker 05

  I went there. I like, because comedy is so healing and so I hope people laugh. I hope that people like find it cute enough to like put out in their, you know, fucking coffee tables or wherever they put them. Um, and where do you put your book in your house?

• 1:18:31Drew Afualo?

  It's actually, I have so many of my book that I have like, they're in all my bookshelves. I have multiple bookshelves.

• 1:18:36Speaker 05

  I'm gonna, I got, the one day it rained in LA was the day that they were all sitting out on my porch. And so now I have like, wet books just like covering my, like, you want a wet book? I got one.

• 1:18:48Drew Afualo?

  I have one waterlogged.

• 1:18:49Speaker 05

  Um, and, and I also, I hope that people can relate to transness in a way maybe that they couldn't have before. Cause I, I try to make it fun.

• 1:18:59Drew Afualo?

  Absolutely.

• 1:18:59Speaker 05

  Cause it is like, that's what's so sad is like, it's become so scientific or you know, fact-based or stat, like there's so much being thrown our way that we can't acknowledge how fun and joyous and silly it can be.

• 1:19:13Drew Afualo?

  Absolutely. And beautiful.

• 1:19:15Speaker 05

  So, yes.

• 1:19:16Drew Afualo?

  And fun and.

• 1:19:17Speaker 05

  And messy.

• 1:19:18Drew Afualo?

  Oh, just everything, everything you could ever want. I was like, that's why I'm like, I'll never understand um, an unhealthy and bigoted obsession with trans people. And also people with no trans people in their life. I feel sorry for them.

• 1:19:31Speaker 05

  So sad for them.

• 1:19:32Drew Afualo?

  I feel so fucking sorry. The dolls, yeah.

• 1:19:34Speaker 05

  You have a, you know a lot of them.

• 1:19:36Drew Afualo?

  I do.

• 1:19:38Speaker 05

  And by them, I mean us.

• 1:19:40Drew Afualo?

  Yeah.

• 1:19:40Speaker 05

  And.

• 1:19:41Drew Afualo?

  Me and the dolls. I said, me and the dolls.

• 1:19:43Speaker 05

  Ah.

• 1:19:43Drew Afualo?

  We're, we're locked in the fucking. I, me, the dolls and drag queens.

• 1:19:48Speaker 05

  Oh, you love drag queens too.

• 1:19:49Drew Afualo?

  I love drag queens.

• 1:19:50Speaker 05

  Oh my god.

• 1:19:50Drew Afualo?

  And they all love me because I'm a fucking bitch.

• 1:19:52Speaker 05

  Wait, did I tell you that? Bitch. Me and Trixie Mattel at the DMV last week?

• 1:19:56Drew Afualo?

  Why were the two of you at the DMV?

• 1:19:58Speaker 05

  I can't. I walk in, you know, head down, Burberry headband on, just eyes down. And, and I, I see this flash of a smile here. Dylan, damn. I look over, Trixie motherfucking Mattel is, is like-

• 1:20:13Drew Afualo?

  Bald ass with a DMV.

• 1:20:14Speaker 05

  She's at the counter, like already doing the paperwork. I'm being told that I didn't have the right appointment or whatever.

• 1:20:19Drew Afualo?

  Right.

• 1:20:20Speaker 05

  And, and so then, um, I was there trying to update, I had an X on my gender marker. I was like, I need the full she, her.

• 1:20:27Drew Afualo?

  Yes.

• 1:20:27Speaker 05

  Um, I want the F.

• 1:20:29Drew Afualo?

  Yes.

• 1:20:29Speaker 05

  And like in 2025.

• 1:20:31Drew Afualo?

  Right.

• 1:20:31Speaker 05

  And, and then she was there, I, who knows what she was doing. But she's fucking just-

• 1:20:36Drew Afualo?

  Being fucking bald.

• 1:20:37Speaker 05

  Updating her picture probably. And, um, and, and like, what a fun person, but also a crazy person to see out in public.

• 1:20:46Drew Afualo?

  Yeah, out in the wild like that.

• 1:20:47Speaker 05

  I haven't seen you since Kieran Shipman's Christmas party, when you kept saying you wanted to fuck Santa. And I was like, he was a good Santa though, so young.

• 1:20:56Drew Afualo?

  You're all, oh, miss him.

• 1:20:57Speaker 05

  I love him. I should call, I should call, I should call Santa. I should call Santa.

• 1:21:02Drew Afualo?

  Me and Trixie canceled on filming on each other, uh, like days apart. Like she canceled on me and then I canceled on her two days later. And then she's like, I love this for us. I love that we do this.

• 1:21:12Speaker 05

  Yeah. And like, there's no, no harm, no foul. I was thinking, there is a new like trans owned bar, like it's like a doll bar in NYC. I think we go to see Nick Jonas in the last five years. We pick up Taffy because you know, she's not going to the musical.

• 1:21:30Drew Afualo?

  No, yeah.

• 1:21:31Speaker 05

  We get some dinner, we go to the doll bar.

• 1:21:34Drew Afualo?

  That sounds like my dream night.

• 1:21:35Speaker 05

  It's a good night.

• 1:21:36Drew Afualo?

  I'll be honest. That sounds like a fucking hoot.

• 1:21:38Speaker 05

  I can't wait. And then we got on the gay cruise the next day.

• 1:21:41Drew Afualo?

  Yeah, yeah. And then-

• 1:21:42Speaker 05

  And we never get off. In some ways, we're on it right now.

• 1:21:46Drew Afualo?

  We're on it right now, currently. We're spearheading it.

• 1:21:48Speaker 05

  Oh.

• 1:21:50Speaker 05

  Aye, aye.

• 1:21:52Drew Afualo?

  Well, thank you so much for coming back. I fucking love you.

• 1:21:54Speaker 05

  I love you so much.

• 1:21:55Drew Afualo?

  I'm in love with you. You're the best.

• 1:21:56Speaker 05

  I can't wait. Who knows what's gonna happen next?

• 1:21:58Drew Afualo?

  I know, girl. Next time we see each other, we'll be on Fashion Police.

• 1:22:01Speaker 05

  It's gonna be.

• 1:22:05Drew Afualo?

  And obviously, everybody already knows you and knows where to find you. But you can tell them if they don't, and also, please tell them where they can get your book.

• 1:22:13Speaker 05

  Um, my name is Dylan Mulvaney. If you don't want to follow me, I don't know, like, follow Dakota Fanning or someone else. I always said, like, I was like, if I get a biopic, I want Dakota Fanning to play me.

• 1:22:25Drew Afualo?

  Right.

• 1:22:25Speaker 05

  It's just, obviously, couldn't, they're not hiring trans people, we gotta get Dakota.

• 1:22:30Speaker 05

  And then, where I buy my book? Oh, where you buy my book?

• 1:22:34Drew Afualo?

  Yeah.

• 1:22:34Speaker 05

  Maybe, yeah, I mean, if you, Daddy Bezos, you can, but I would love you to go to, like, a local bookstore. Alstora, I have a book club that you could join, and we'll send it to you that way.

• 1:22:43Drew Afualo?

  Gorge.

• 1:22:44Speaker 05

  Um, and it's just, it's, it's a, you read, or audio, honey. There's people that, hey, the people listening, maybe you prefer an audiobook. What, did you record yours?

• 1:22:53Drew Afualo?

  I sure did.

• 1:22:54Speaker 05

  That was a long week.

• 1:22:55Drew Afualo?

  It was. Mine was a week, was your?

• 1:22:57Speaker 05

  Did you forget how to read words? I had to start every sentence.

• 1:23:02Drew Afualo?

  I felt like, I felt like I was, sometimes I felt like my voice didn't sound like myself, because I was listening to myself talk for too long.

• 1:23:08Speaker 05

  And then I, I started kind of like talking like this.

• 1:23:10Drew Afualo?

  Yeah, then I felt like I was talking in different octaves.

• 1:23:12Speaker 05

  No, I was like, drop it, drop it, drop it low. But yeah, it's so, that was a tricky one.

• 1:23:18Drew Afualo?

  It was. You could do audiobook or the physical copy. I highly recommend the physical copy.

• 1:23:23Speaker 05

  Illustrations.

• 1:23:25Drew Afualo?

  Yeah, and it's gorgeous. Are you kidding me? And I'll tell you what, they do care a lot about aesthetics of a book. The girls.

• 1:23:31Speaker 05

  They, they care.

• 1:23:32Drew Afualo?

  They love when they're pretty.

• 1:23:33Speaker 05

  Okay, when you think of, like, other than your own.

• 1:23:35Drew Afualo?

  Yeah.

• 1:23:35Speaker 05

  What's a cute book?

• 1:23:38Drew Afualo?

  Ooh, cute? Let me think. Other than yours, I think this is so fucking pretty.

• 1:23:43Speaker 05

  I think, uh, Jeanette McCurdy's is so cute.

• 1:23:47Drew Afualo?

  I'm trying to think of, like, book.

• 1:23:50Speaker 05

  You're like, the Bible.

• 1:23:51Drew Afualo?

  I'm like, me never, never having read.

• 1:23:53Speaker 05

  Romeo and Juliet.

• 1:23:54Drew Afualo?

  I'm like, Twilight.

• 1:23:55Speaker 05

  Oh, they, you know what I want? Twilight Cruise. Jesse McCartney on the Twilight Cruise.

• 1:24:03Drew Afualo?

  It's Twilight Cruise featuring Jessica

• 1:24:04Speaker 05

  Have I found you?

• 1:24:07Drew Afualo?

  Well, thank you all so much for joining us on this episode of the comment section. Thank you to my amazing all-star guest, Dylan Mulvaney. Obviously, make sure y'all go follow Dylan on literally everything. She's a fucking superstar and I love her and y'all already know this. And make sure y'all pick up her new book, Paper Doll, Notes from a Late Bloomer. It's available now, anywhere you can buy books or stream audiobooks. Oh, my gosh, how exciting.

• 1:24:30Speaker 05

  I love you.

• 1:24:31Drew Afualo?

  I love you. And thank you all so much for joining us. Don't forget, new episodes of the comment section drop every Wednesday. You can stream the audio on all streaming platforms, but the video is for free and exclusively on our favorite platform, Spotify. Thank you so much to Dylan. Thank you so much to all of you and I'll see you next week. Bye.

• 1:24:46Speaker 05

  Bye.