Tatum’s Stunning Return, Wemby’s Big Weekend, and a 2011 MVP Deep Dive With Zach Lowe

The Ringer’s Bill Simmons is joined by Zach Lowe LIVE on Netflix to react to Jayson Tatum’s return before recapping the NBA games of the weekend (0:32). Then, they take a look at the playoff picture and have a stock draft before ending with a deep dive on the 2011 MVP race (54:12). Host: Bill Simmons Guest: Zach Lowe Producers: Chia Hao Tat, Eduardo Ocampo, and Chris Wohlers Sam’s Club | Join The Club of Yes And The Ringer is committed to responsible gaming. Please visit⁠⁠⁠ www.rg-help.com⁠⁠⁠ to learn more about the resources and helplines available. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Bill Simmons?

  This episode is brought to you by Carhartt. We spend a lot of time talking about football, the players, the coaches, the big plays, but there's a whole other team we rarely think about, the people who make the game possible, the workers building stadiums, paving parking lots, growing the grass, welding the goalposts, even making the footballs. They're committed to their craft and they're doing the work long before kickoff. Carhartt is proud to outfit those crews. So next time you're watching a game, take a second to appreciate the people behind it. Learn more at carhartt.com/jointhetrades.

• 1:05Bill Simmons?

  It's the Bill Simmons Podcast, presented by Fanduel Sports Network and the Ringer Sports Network. Zach Lowe is here. I really screwed that up. It's a Ringer Podcast Network. For some reason, I froze. I'm so excited to talk about Tatum. There's a lot to talk about. Since the last week, when we got together and I was like, I feel all signs are pointing to Tatum on Friday, and it just feels like so many things have changed. The Spurs feel like more juggernauty than ever. We were coming on right after they beat the hell out of the Rockets. The Celtics have just inserted themselves now for real into the contender conversation. The Lakers look more interesting without LeBron James, which is a fun little wrinkle.

• 1:47Bill Simmons?

  And the Pistons are looking a little gamey, little teetering. Where do you want to start? Tatum?

• 1:53Speaker 01

  I'm sure you want to start Tatum, so we can start Tatum. It is the most exciting thing that happened in the last 72 hours.

• 2:01Bill Simmons?

  I would argue it's the most exciting thing that happened this season, just because when you go back to last May, and it was like, oh, man, we're not going to see this guy for 18 months. And then you think the first week of the season, I remember going to, I saw a home game in the first 10 days and came away from the game thinking, they got to blow it up. Like, this is ridiculous. Just trade Derrick White. Just start this over. Who are we kidding with this team? And the transformation over the next four months has been startling. And I mean, the craziest thing, there's the Tatum piece, which I want to talk about in a second. But then there's also the getting all these minutes and reps for all these dudes now

• 2:40Bill Simmons?

  that are now these trained dragons for a 10 or 11 man rotation. You saw Shireman today was one of the key guys in the game, who just wouldn't have played this year if Tatum had played the whole year. But Tatum coming back, Friday was emotional.

• 2:54Speaker 01

  For you?

• 2:55Bill Simmons?

  It was emotional for him. I think he had a lot of trouble getting through it. I think it was, you know, his son sitting in the front row of the basket they're going against in the first half. And, and he just looked way more like himself today. But I didn't fully 100% believe until this, uh, this driving righty layup bank shot that he made in the second half, where he pushed off his bad, I want to call it the bad leg, because it's like he surgically repaired leg, I guess. And it was just a vintage Tatum play going off the leg that everybody was like, he's got to be careful. He's just far further ahead of where I thought he was going to be. Is the same for you? Were you expecting 27 to 29 minutes and real intensity?

• 3:36Speaker 01

  I'm legitimately shocked at how good he looks. And I realize he's 12 of 32, 6 of 16 in both games. The eye test is, I mean, I'm shocked, I'm absolutely blown away. He, he is, he looks really, really good already. And it's a little scary for teams who have been saying like, well, if not now for the Knicks, when, you know, because Tatum's out and Halliburton's out and Lillard's out. And well, even if Tatum comes back, he'll be a shell of himself. And I, I wasn't sure how much of like, is he going to be 60% of Tatum, 80% of Tatum? I don't know what percentage he's at now, but 50 minutes into this or whatever it is, he's so far ahead of where anyone could have reasonably expected him to be. It's, it's, it's legitimately shocking to me.

• 4:21Bill Simmons?

  He looks like Tatum. There's some stuff like there's some very careful, deep dive eye test Tatum stuff. Like I think he's being careful jumping in traffic. Like for instance, like making sure when he's landing in a sea of legs, I'm sure that's in the back of his head. I thought it wasn't really until the second half that he seemed like he really wanted to like that righty layup I mentioned.

• 4:42Speaker 01

  Well, that that layup, by the way, that's on Mobley on a switch getting, I believe we're talking about the same one where he gets by Evan Mobley going right. It's Evan Mobley. Like he also had a spin in the post around Sam Merrill. They ran that white Tatum pick and roll a bunch to get switches and he had a like a quick baseline spin finish through Mobley. Like that's just trademark Jason Tatum stuff that we're seeing. 20 and 27 minutes in this game against Cleveland, a team that's been rolling. I know they didn't have Jared Allen, but whoo.

• 5:12Bill Simmons?

  And the defense stuff too, where when they had, uh, when they had him out there with, with White and Jalen at the same time. And there's their abilities to switch. And I thought his side to side stuff looked really good too. Look, going back to Friday night, my friend Hench came over because we vowed, um, if he somehow came back that we're watching the first game together. So Tatum comes back.

• 5:36Bill Simmons?

  Obviously it's emotional. Obviously he's going to be a little nervous. Obviously a little rusty.

• 5:42Bill Simmons?

  Can't make a shot. Crowd's starting to get tentative. The missed dunk happens. We made my wife make cocktails. We're like, all right, this is, this is now way more intense and excruciating. So she had to make, she made me a vodka soda. She made Hench a gin and tonic.

• 5:59Speaker 01

  I just want to, I just want to point out, you had your wife, you didn't make cocktails. Hench did make.

• 6:04Bill Simmons?

  She's a good bartender. Yeah. I want to take advantage. Uh, you know, it's like 4:30 on a Friday afternoon. Or so get the drinks. He finally gets that follow up rebound dunk, right? Huge release in the crowd. We're like, oh my God, he got one. Okay. Now, and then within 20 seconds hits the three. And, uh, and the crowd just went ballistic. And I know a bunch of people who were there and they said it was a finals level crowd. The explosion of that 30 seconds, the two plays in a row, like people were just delirious and it really went from. Uh oh. Is this gonna be a lot more awkward and weird and depressing than I was anticipating to? Oh my God, Tatum's back. Holy shit. And you could feel the ceiling kinda go up during

• 6:49Bill Simmons?

  that game. And then this Cleveland game was, he just looked like Tatum.

• 6:53Speaker 01

  Well, I love the way he came out in the Dallas game. He was looking to pass the ball and there was a play in that game where he got the ball. Nothing was going on. He got the ball on the right wing. Nothing was happening. And you just thought, alright, he's gonna get into his Tatum bag and iso. And instead, he whipped a pass to Derrick White and ran into a screen, like ran, sprinted, set a screen, slipped out of it. Like all, it's been the perfect mix of getting his stuff within the Celtic system and then being Tatum one-on-one against good matchups that are produced best. Which he's looked incredible. And that dunk, that missed dunk, was nothing but encouraging to me. Because on the way there, first of all, it came off a catch, like an active catch. He came off like, caught the ball coming around the screen and went right to attack. So you're not doing all the

• 7:36Speaker 01

  heavy lifting on your own. We're gonna give you a head start. And the change of direction and explosion toward the hoop were like jarring to me that he's already here and he didn't get the explosion quite up to dunk it.

• 7:48Bill Simmons?

  It seemed like he mistimed it from how far away from the hoop he was, right? Which is just reps.

• 7:52Speaker 01

  But I, like the explosion, the change of direction, the explosion on the way there was like, whoa, this guy's so far ahead. And by the way, to your point about, I mean, we, you and I were not concerned about the chemistry and like any of these things. We were like, this is gonna be fine. Good players playing good basketball is good. Jalen Brown today, I thought had an awesome game. 23 points.

• 8:11Bill Simmons?

  Third quarter, third quarter especially, yeah.

• 8:13Speaker 01

  Eight assists, nine rebounds or nine assists, eight rebounds, I can't remember which. And just making every right play. And yeah, low and behold, he's still gonna put up huge numbers playing this way and play with Jason Tatum.

• 8:27Bill Simmons?

  You know, I like what you said about that first half of the Dallas game. The shots weren't going in, everything was short, whatever. But he was in the flow of the game, which was encouraging, right? And I was wondering, like, nobody, people are asking a bunch of questions and you get the post-game thing, Jason, how does it feel? What's it like to be out there? I'd love for somebody to ask him. Do you feel like you gained anything from these four months just sitting on the bench watching basketball? Like, do you feel, did any, has anything slowed down for you? Has anything changed about how you think about when you're out there just from just being a spectator? Because I, I felt like he was a little more patient than maybe he was even at his peak, just like, like kinda not asserting himself too much and just kinda fitting in, but I

• 9:11Bill Simmons?

  might be, might have been imagining it. What was cool about it, you know, they had Shireman in that spot and Hauser and Hugo and Jordan Walsh, all these different swing. When he's out there, you just kinda forget certain things about Tatum, like, oh yeah, he can handle the ball. He's basically a point forward. Oh, now we have one more guy out there who can do that. The lineup that, uh, I don't know what the plus minus stats were, but that lineup with him and Jalen, Pritchard, White and Cade, um, which we had last year. Cade is a different guy this year, obviously. Pritchard's up a level as a scorer. And I thought they had two stretches in the Cleveland game that I would be really scared of if I was a team in the East. Because all they were doing was like, it was either Tatum or Brown in the corner.

• 9:55Bill Simmons?

  There was Cade setting picks for either the guards or one of the other forwards and just a lot of movement and just things happening until they got the mismatch they wanted, which was usually Harden, or it was Tatum on Mitchell. And just over and over again, they were just getting the right matchup and the right guy in space in these four elite shot creators. And that was the first time I was like, holy shit, they might make the finals. Like, I, I wasn't even considering it until the second half of the Cleveland game.

• 10:23Speaker 01

  I mean, Cade is a real guy now, like a real screen role, make plays in the short roll, like finish, rebound, defense. Like, you put a real guy who does all the center dirty work stuff around those four dudes on offense, that's a scary lineup. And so far, the only like rotation casualty of Tatum to turn is Walsh. Gonzalez is still getting minutes. Uh, Shireman's just good. Like, Shireman's a good player on both ends of the floor. Yeah, they, they've looked awesome and I just, Tatum, it's, you know, you can tell that you'd mentioned the not diving into traffic, they're, they're clearly gonna get Get him up to speed slowly on defense like they're gonna give him easier assignments that so far that's been the case. You're not gonna guard Cooper flag. You're not gonna guard Donovan Mitchell. We'll put you on Dean Wade, whatever.

• 11:06Speaker 01

  You can switch into those matchups, but I it's just it's shocking to me that he looks so much like Jason Tatum. Like it's it's I can't I keep saying it. It's shocking.

• 11:17Bill Simmons?

  The other thing is what a great sports story it is, and you could even see at the beginning when Harden came over and hugged him and Mitchell had him at the end of the game. And it's just like, you know, you have your livelihood taken away and you have it taken away when you're at the peak of your powers. Like I was thinking back to that Knicks game, which I thought was one of the best games he ever played, the game he got hurt. And the whole playoffs athletically, it just felt like he was at the highest level he was ever. You could feel it as you were watching those games. Like, oh, my God, this guy's just one of the great athletes, you know? And I don't know if it's ever gonna 100% come back to where he was, like just from him flying around and challenging everything. And and maybe it will, maybe it'll just be reps.

• 11:58Bill Simmons?

  But even the stuff we saw today, like coming coming 10 months after an injury like that. Part of it's modern science, but also I do think it's the age. You know, I think when you're in your twenties and you're in your prime like this, I think maybe it is more conceivable to come back. But I just thought he seemed so relieved. And I think they did something important, keeping him with the team, which he's mentioned a couple of times, traveling all over the place with them and just staying in the fabric of it and staying with it so that it seemed kind of organic. Because this could go one of two ways, right? The other way is the guy just disappears, works out on his own with his coaches. That wasn't like this at all.

• 12:37Bill Simmons?

  And I I've been, you know, like every other Boston fan, I've been watching the Jalen Jason stuff, making sure Jalen handled it and said all the right things.

• 12:44Speaker 01

  You were alarmed at points pre pre return. You were alarmed.

• 12:47Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, I was. There was. I was thought Jalen was maybe two. Sentences short of just saying like, I really miss my brother. We're just trying to hold the fort until he gets. I just thought he was like too light.

• 13:00Bill Simmons?

  But he's, he made a point of saying that after the game, he did one of those twitch things. And I, I just thought the way I don't, I didn't feel any dueling banjo stuff at all today. I thought everything was organic. It just felt like, it just felt like they're back. And you're talking about one of the great unusual partnerships we've had this century. Just two guys playing together for this long is impossible. Like, we're gonna talk about the Utah Jazz a little bit later. It's tough to keep a pairing together for five years in this day and age. You know, Westbrook and Durant were together eight years, right? Even Curry and Klay didn't make it. They made it to what, 2023? But just in general, just having two guys do their thing together like this for a long

• 13:41Bill Simmons?

  period of time. It's unusual. The league's not designed for this to happen.

• 13:47Speaker 01

  I thought there was a little more dueling banjos today against Cleveland than against Dallas. And that was part because Cleveland was just switching everything and kind of making the Celtics go one on one. But like, when you have two players who are this good going one on one, you can have some dueling banjos. Like, that's gonna be part of it. And as long as, as long as they have the mindset, and this is where Jalen has really leveled up this year, of when I get into the paint and draw a bunch of traffic, like, I'm just gonna make this simple play every time. If the simple play is me finishing because I've got a good angle or a height advantage or whatever, that's it. If the simple play is to kick to Hauser or Pritchard, like-

• 14:21Bill Simmons?

  Or the little dish to Kada. That's the other thing he loves to do.

• 14:24Speaker 01

  And even those, like, there was a stretch even a month ago where some of those were getting a little reckless. Like, he tries some around the back bounce passes. We were like, ooh, that, that kind of hit somebody's shin and somehow found its way through. He's cleaned that up, too. He's had a really, a really great season. And to your, earlier, you said, you know, someone should ask Tatum, what did you learn watching basketball? I would like to ask him, what did you learn about some of your teammates watching them? Because for all the change that the Celtics made over the summer to cut costs and move on to a new era, kind of, and, and prepare for this season where Tatum was maybe gonna play, maybe not, he does have a lot of built in content- With all the core guys that are left on the team. Like that's part of the reason why I think this was going to be seamless is he's just play even Pritchard,

• 15:09Speaker 01

  White, Hauser, like these are guys he's got a lot of built up reps with, but he also got to see them play in a different context. And I wonder if he just sort of like learned there's more breadth to their game or this guy can do a little bit more of this than I thought.

• 15:22Bill Simmons?

  And also Jalen, I, I just think is a better player than he was last year and he was a great player. He was one of the best 25 guys in the league, but I, like the point you were making about how he's making the right play. I just think he does that more consistently this year. Defensively, those three together, uh, White, Jalen and, and Jason are just, it's going to be one of the best things, best threesomes defensively anybody has combined with Kada. You know, the, the other piece, there, there was some luck with this too, like Horford leaving, I think ultimately was probably a pretty good thing. You know, because this team is a little bit more rebounding and centers and offensive rebounding and stuff like that. It was not, not stuff Horford was really that good at or Porzingis. So the team's a little different.

• 16:05Bill Simmons?

  There's a couple of things I think we know for sure now that I wasn't positive of because from what I heard, Tatum's been playing five on five for a month. That's why he's so far ahead and they've done a great job of keeping everything quiet.

• 16:18Speaker 01

  Yeah. Well, whatever, whatever they've done, starting from the moment the injury happened until now, and it helps when the guy's 27 or whatever and not 34, like needs to be studied by other teams. Cause this is like crazy.

• 16:31Bill Simmons?

  Yeah. So he, he was playing, I think more than we realized. And that's why I thought he was going to come back and be 20 minutes. Like he, they, the Shireman proxy theory was correct. Like they've moved him right into those minutes and he's 27 and 29. They want to build him up to the mid-high 30s by the end of the season. He's probably going to miss, I don't know, four games. So, so we learned, we learned that specifically. The Simons trade makes a lot more sense now.

• 16:57Speaker 01

  It was always like this. Yeah. It was always like this.

• 17:00Bill Simmons?

  No, but I think if Vuch was good, it was a bonus, but I think they, the Simons trade was really more about he, Tatum's just going to take all of these minutes. And they kind of must've known this at the deadline. That was important. And then randomly Vuch breaks his finger. And I, I, I think they probably would have ended up with Garza and the Vucevic minutes anyway. Because I don't know how great of a fit he was and I, I, he was the one piece that I just couldn't, couldn't make, make sense with the group they have. So, um, if you're talking about holes, Garza as your backup center, fine. Um, how many teams is that going to really rear its ugly head against? I don't know. I think Tatum would have the ability to play small. It was interesting to watch.

• 17:44Bill Simmons?

  The announcers and you know, I, I love Legor, so do you obviously. It was interesting. I thought, I thought Cleveland went small for a while in the fourth quarter and I, I thought it was a bigger story that Mobley just wasn't out there.

• 17:55Speaker 01

  Well, I was like, Tatum, Tatum coming off an Achilles tear has like less of a minutes restriction than guys who are coming off sprained ankles and like toe injuries. And it's like, it's, it's remarkable.

• 18:07Bill Simmons?

  Yeah. So Mobley, so they went small against them. And I'm wondering like down the road, will the Celtics respond by going small with Tatum, Brown, two guards and one of the wings? And the other thing I think to watch long-term with the Celtics is, um, will Hauser be the guy that starts? Or would they move Hugos or Shireman into that spot as the fifth guy to try and move, maybe move Hauser to the second thing? Um, a couple of other things really quick.

• 18:35Speaker 01

  Well, could we just, could we just stop on Vooch for a second? I just, I just think he was, I agree and they're not going to, like Garza's been good. He's, he makes threes. They're not going to miss Vooch pretty much at all. Except I think they viewed Vooch as like, Kada and Garza is, is like a pretty small center tandem. And the Knicks can go double big, the Cavs go double big, the Pistons are just this ferocious. We'll fight anybody. We're giant team. And I think they, I think that could be a matchup thing in the playoffs where, okay, we just need a bigger guy out here for 12 minutes, but hopefully he's ready by then.

• 19:13Bill Simmons?

  I think this might be the deepest Celtics team since the 08 team. Remember that 08 team when they added Cassell and PJ Brown near the end and they just had too many, almost too many guys and they had all these different lineups and wrinkles. Like the fact that Shireman, Hauser, Gonzalez, like these are real bench guys that any team in the league I think would want combined with the Walsh piece. Like they probably go 11 deep for real now with Tatum. And I, I'll be interested to see how the minutes go. They can use these last 20 games basically to rest some guys, try some different things.

• 19:49Bill Simmons?

  On the Cleveland side, I did have one Mobley question for you because I thought that was a pretty big Cleveland game today and I thought the halftime guys did a good job of, of properly excoriated them. Now, these, these afternoon weekend games, I just think are impossible to predict. You know, I watched Orlando, Minnesota yesterday and Minnesota just didn't show up. And I've seen those get that over and over again on a Saturday or Sunday. Teams just kind of either don't show up or they were out the night before or whatever.

• 20:21Bill Simmons?

  It was weird that it took them an hour and a half to really be like, oh shit, we're on national TV and this is kind of a big game. We should really step it up here. What, have we peaked with what we're getting from Mobley in your opinion?

• 20:33Speaker 01

  No, I wouldn't, I wouldn't say, I mean, what is he 24 years old? I would, I would be very hesitant to say that we've, we've peaked with Evan Mobley.

• 20:42Speaker 01

  What's left is just-

• 20:42Bill Simmons?

  What's left, what's the next, what's the jump for him? If you think there's going to be more there, what is it?

• 20:49Speaker 01

  I think it's all the stuff that we think might be in there, right? It's, it's a more consistent three point shot. It's a little bit more aggression, assertiveness on offense, a little bit more with the ball against mismatches, running pick and rolls. Like they just, and you hear that this is going to come every preseason, like, oh, you should see the stuff of Mobley's doing.

• 21:06Bill Simmons?

  That's why I brought it up.

• 21:07Speaker 01

  And it, and it just sort of, you know, you see it in fits and starts and for a game and then he's out this, for a week and you don't see him. I think there's, he's still so young that peaked is just way too strong of a word. But I think the question you're really asking is like, what version of Evan Mobley do they need right now to get to the finals for a team that just made a huge trade? That was clearly like a red flag of, oh, we need to get to the finals like immediately. We cannot wait on Darius Garland and we, do we have that version of Evan Mobley? And I will say, I'm beginning to like the Cavs even more when they have the two bigs together. I, I feel like that's their, that has become their best look and we didn't see that today. I want to see, I want to see more of that.

• 21:52Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, that's why with this game, it's, it was a great win for the Celtics, but I just feel like if you take out one of those four guys for the Cavs, it's a little more substantial than with some other teams. Cause I don't think their five through 12 is really that impressive. The reason I brought it up with Mobley, his stats are basically the same for, he's, he's in year five. It's basically this been the same guy for the last four years. Like his field goal attempts set year two, he was 12 a game. Now he's 13. He shot 21% from three his second year. Now he's shooting 32%. His rebounds, he was nine in his second year is 8.7 this year.

• 22:35Bill Simmons?

  His assists 2.8, now it's 3.8. Blocks around the same. Everything's kind of around the same. And I just feel like by your fifth year, I wanted, I wanted to level up. And I still think it's in there, but I also don't know, like when he shoots a three, do you think it's going in?

• 22:54Speaker 01

  I, I don't feel awesome about it, but I don't feel bad about it. I just feel like it's a shot that the defense is willing to live with. And I, it may always be a shot that the defense is willing to live with, given the alternatives on the team that has Donovan Mitchell and James Harden and whatever else. It is interesting that, you know, with Allen out.

• 23:14Speaker 01

  He doesn't, like Harden and Allen just had immediate pick and roll chemistry.

• 23:19Bill Simmons?

  Yes.

• 23:19Speaker 01

  Pocket passes, lobs, whatever. And it just, and this is not the first time this has been the case with Mobley and a ball handler. When Allen is cleared from the picture and he's the center and the paint is all his, for whatever reason, that does not come as easily with him and for him as it does for a more traditional rim runner like Allen. Like, I want to see just Rampage, man. Like, put some shooting in there, let Harden loose and Rampage. And it, it just isn't as easy. Like, for Jared Allen, it was immediately like, oh, I'm just gonna get 25 points every game now.

• 23:50Bill Simmons?

  There's more there, and I don't, not sure what it is. The three-point shot would have to get better. The ability to punish any sort of mismatch, I don't feel like he's totally there yet. The defense is really, really good. It's not like I won't be telling my grandkids about it, but it's really, really good. And so it's, it's, I just wonder, two years from now, are we in the same spot? I think about this with certain guys in the league. Like, I look at Jabari Smith that way, too, who's obviously an easier, younger than Mobley. But I'm, I, when I watch him, because I like his game, and I have a lot of Jabari Smith stock. And sometimes I'm, I'm thinking, is this basically gonna be it? We're gonna be at like 16 and 7, and he'll hit some threes, and he'll be able to guard

• 24:34Bill Simmons?

  different guys, and this is just what we're gonna, this is where we're gonna land? Is there gonna be a jump? Will it have to be he gets traded to a bad team? Or is this just kind of the vicinity of where we're gonna land? I don't know. We're gonna take a break. I want to talk about Detroit, and the Spurs, and the Rockets, and the Lakers, and the Knicks. That's coming next.

• 24:52Speaker 01

  It's a lot.

• 24:54Bill Simmons?

  This episode of the Bill Simmons Podcast is presented by Sam's Club. It is that time of the year when you just gotta get in your car and go somewhere. Done that plenty of times in my life. Nowhere gets you ready to go. Quite like Sam's Club. Snacks, the gear, super low prices on gas. They got a bunch of stuff that keep you and the whole crew rolling. And here's what you gotta do. You gotta join the club of Yes End at sam'sclub.com/yesend. You must be 18 years or older to purchase a membership, and membership is subject to qualifications. Visit sam'sclub.com/yesend for details.

• 25:31Bill Simmons?

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• 26:10Bill Simmons?

  I forgot to mention at the top, it is C R month on the rewatchables. He's an American hero. We did Sicario last week. We have Fargo coming on Monday. We have To Live and Die in L A coming a week from Monday. And then we just had a vote for the fourth movie and it looks like the nice guys won the fourth movie with, uh, Ryan Gosling and Russell Crowe. And then the last movie of the month will be L A Confidential. So stay tuned for that. You mentioned something when we went to break. Say your Cleveland point really quick about what happens if it doesn't go great for them this, this, uh, spring.

• 26:44Speaker 01

  I, I just, I think they've become a very interesting offseason team. Uh, and I think if, if, let's say they lose in the second round and it's just another second round loss for this iteration of the Cavs. Uh, we've already seen them trade Garland and you just mentioned Mobley and when is Mobley going to develop? And the Yanis thing could be revisited and I just like, I, I'll be watching.

• 27:07Bill Simmons?

  It's a, it's a team blow up. Did they sign Harden to the extension or no?

• 27:11Speaker 01

  Not yet.

• 27:14Bill Simmons?

  Wasn't, I think Harden had one of those games where it's like, wait, is it mid May? Oh no, it's the beginning of March.

• 27:20Speaker 01

  You're burying honeymoon hard. Is honeymoon Harden over?

• 27:22Bill Simmons?

  Honeymoon Harden might have, yeah, this might've been, I left my purse at the hotel bar and then now it's gone. We gotta find it. The honeymoon's in shambles. Uh, Detroit lost today. They're six and five in their last 11. They are 45 and 18. The Celtics are now two wins in the loss column behind them, nine and two in their last 11.

• 27:41Bill Simmons?

  The Brooklyn loss, which I did not watch, they did not have Cade Cunningham in.

• 27:44Speaker 01

  No kid.

• 27:45Bill Simmons?

  Um, and blew a big lead near the end. You know, that's fine. The loss today was a little different because they got their asses kicked by Miami and we'll talk about Miami in a second, too. Detroit hanging on a little bit and then you watch some of these other teams in the East that have two, three, four guys who can create a shot and Detroit still, like we say every week, has the one guy who can create offense and then just a lot of good cutting, a lot of good cuts and, uh, and, and some low post play. Um, but not a lot of guys who can create shots and it's just the Herter trade. I just don't understand their trade deadline. I understand that we said this in the trade deadline pod when we had it. I understand being afraid to mess

• 28:28Bill Simmons?

  with the chemistry, but I also think they needed a freelance wing, guard, somebody, and they didn't get it. Herter's really not playing. Um, and I just feel like they're a, they're a creator short. So what do you see?

• 28:42Speaker 01

  I think this has been the concern all season and why none of us have been ready to crown them East champions like we would normally crown a team that was so, that was like six games ahead, it seemingly a blink of an eye ago. It's because you know that the offense is going to get harder to come by in the playoffs when you play two non-shooters at almost all the time, sometimes three, and you're really, really dependent on an all-world player, but he's just one player and you have all these little subsets, right? Like Duncan Robinson flying around is kind of like a creator, even though he doesn't dribble because he creates openings and gaps and attention comes to him. And Jalen Dern can face up. I don't love these Jalen Dern jump shots that are starting to happen now because I think that's like, we gotta maybe-

• 29:24Bill Simmons?

  A little 1995-ish?

• 29:25Speaker 01

  Maybe another offseason of working on that before you start busting that out in games. And I love JD and you get, it's like a little bit of this and the offensive rebounding is part of it, but all that stuff is harder to do in the playoffs when everyone is geared up on defense on every possession. And this has been the concern all year. I'm not going to panic. It's a late season, you know, slide, one game without Cade, team had a huge lead. Everyone is coming back from suspension one by one, like Beef Stew just got back. Um, I agree with you. Like, we all had big dreams for the Pistons trade deadline all season, right? Like, it started with Markkinen, like, that's the perfect fit. And then it was clear Utah was just not going to trade Markkinen because he's just gonna, I guess, be a Jazz lifer and just maybe one day make the playoffs for the first time ever.

• 30:10Bill Simmons?

  We took a Trey Murphy spin around the parking lot. That, that didn't bite.

• 30:15Speaker 01

  It doesn't, I never really heard Detroit being aggressive and they settle on this, you know, Ivy Herter, basically exchange of those two guys, there's a pick swap here and there. And JB Bickerstaff, maybe they should have asked JB Bickerstaff first, like, hey, are you gonna play Kevin Herter if we get him? Because we might trade for Kevin Herter. And like, he's been a break in case of emergency guy. And he's the kind of player that could help them, wouldn't change their life. I think we all knew that. But yeah, I mean, look, this four team race in the East, and you want to throw Charlotte in and make it five, go ahead and do it.

• 30:49Bill Simmons?

  Can we throw in the zombie Heat?

• 30:51Speaker 01

  Zombie Heat, five straight wins? Maybe the Heat just heat around and they heat their way in one way or another.

• 30:59Bill Simmons?

  So, as you know, I'm always terrified of the Heat. I'd written them off this season. I saw them in person last month when I was back for Kuzi's thing at Holy Cross. And the Celtics came back from a big deficit, beat them. Khalil Ware looked like he was just a section eight for the season. He came in for two small stints in the game and was just a catastrophe. And it was like, wow, it's gotten this bad? Like, it was one of those. This last five games, it wasn't just winning the five. I watched that Rockets game, that's when I got scared.

• 31:36Speaker 01

  That's a good win for them.

• 31:37Bill Simmons?

  What they did to Charlotte on Friday night was notable, and I want to talk about that in a second. But then the one today, too, just taking into Detroit. Heroes just back. Heroes, like, I'm actually offended that you guys forgot I was good at basketball, and I was being thrown around in these trade deadline shit. Like, I'm good. Bam, I think, has gotten better offensively as the season went along. There were some pretty shaky Bam stats, but he's basically been a 22-10 guy for two months. Powell's out right now. Powell isn't even playing. So when he comes back, just thinking about them in a playoff series where you have these two Heat check guys, you have Bam, who's steady, you have a defensive identity, you have a good coach, you have a

• 32:17Bill Simmons?

  couple weird bench guys and wings, and you only have to go 4-3 to advance in a playoff series. I looked this up.

• 32:25Speaker 01

  It's true.

• 32:26Bill Simmons?

  You only have to go 4-3. You can have three shitty losses and still win the series. And I just don't want to see them in a series. And somehow, they've been resuscitated, Zach Lowe, and I'm just horrified.

• 32:39Speaker 01

  I'm already looking at a 2-7 Boston Miami series.

• 32:43Bill Simmons?

  You can look at it right now because that would be the matchup if we had it right now.

• 32:47Speaker 01

  Well, they gotta get through the play in. They gotta heat their way through the play in. Although, you know, 6 is becoming quite interesting now. Orlando is 6. Philly has dropped to 8th after a nightmare weekend where Maxey gets hurt. Now it sounds like he's not gonna be out for a long time, but Embiid is still out with this oblique thing and so that has flipped almost completely. The Hawks have won 6 in a row. Don't, don't look at the, don't, don't forget about the Hawks.

• 33:08Bill Simmons?

  Jalen Johnson's played himself into like legit all NBA consideration too. I think he's there.

• 33:13Speaker 01

  I had him on my rough draft like 2 weeks ago, 13th team all NBA and was, people were kinda stunned. I was like, I don't know. I think he's been pretty good and Kaminga's been good for them. I'm not, I wouldn't take like the all out victory lap on Kaminga quite yet, but he's been very good for them and definitely more productive than Porzingis who finally.

• 33:29Bill Simmons?

  The Matt Ishby premature ejaculation victory lap?

• 33:32Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 33:33Bill Simmons?

  Hey Matt, keep it in your pants.

• 33:35Speaker 01

  Alright, well.

• 33:36Bill Simmons?

  You're a 7 seed. Like settle down. The moment he did that, everybody in the team got hurt.

• 33:41Speaker 01

  Yeah, the Dillon Brooks who took a little bit of a hit this weekend as well.

• 33:44Bill Simmons?

  Maybe take the victory lap after the season, buddy.

• 33:46Speaker 01

  Well, the Bam Ware stuff has started to work and worked big time. That combination in the last 3 to 4 weeks has really changed their team and like Jaime Jaquez Jr., I haven't done a detailed 6 man of the year dive in maybe a month, but I, I think, you know, he, Kelton Johnson, Nasri, there's a bunch of good candidates. He's just been consistently outstanding and teams just can't keep him out of his comfort zones. He spins and drives his way into these little 8 foot flip shots. He seems to make all of them and he was a huge difference maker in that win at Charlotte on Friday.

• 34:18Bill Simmons?

  Charlotte's playing right now and they're tied heading into halftime in Phoenix ironically, but so I watched that Friday game because they were going head to head with, with the Tatum game. So I had on the smaller TV. I was monitoring it.

• 34:29Speaker 01

  You, you don't have to say that you watch a Hornets game. We all assume that you are watching every Hornets game. Parents, parents watch their children legitimate or not.

• 34:38Bill Simmons?

  That's the thing. It's the thing. It's like when I would have Zoe's soccer games on, on, on one of the side TVs. Um, Charlotte played well. They had 120 points.

• 34:47Bill Simmons?

  Good game. Offensively, they they kept doing stuff, but they couldn't stop Miami. And I thought it was interesting. It was a little cold water being thrown on the watch out for Charlotte. They could be this year's Indiana.

• 35:01Bill Simmons?

  Bandwagon that I think I was on with three other people.

• 35:04Speaker 01

  That's a that's a that bandwagon is.

• 35:07Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, we didn't even have wheels. We were just like, we were basically building a building the foundation of it. But they had nobody in the team that could stop Hero. And I think I think if if you're going into a playoff series, their issue is going to be stopping those hero Pritchard. These crafty guards, these crafty heat check guys, they just don't have anyone like they're they're five, their best five. Everything's good, except for that one wrinkle. Donovan Mitchell, I think would be a real problem for them.

• 35:35Bill Simmons?

  And that was that was my lesson from that because they got 120 and they still lost. Miami is going to be heard from, and I think we can officially say the East is better than the West.

• 35:44Speaker 01

  We might be we might be able to say it. I mean, you know, certainly the bottom. Five of the West is not covering itself in glory.

• 35:54Bill Simmons?

  No.

• 35:54Speaker 01

  Nor is the bottom four in the East, however, but it's it's a conversation now. For sure.

• 36:01Bill Simmons?

  Well, we were about to have. Four legitimate East contenders. All with various cases going on. Cleveland took a hit today. And the Knicks were the other one. The Knicks. Who I've been hesitant to trust because every time I'm about to buy in and then they had a couple of good games. I even thought I thought that OKC loss they had was the best Knicks game I've seen.

• 36:22Speaker 01

  That was a good loss.

• 36:22Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, that was like, oh, yeah, that this could be a finals.

• 36:27Bill Simmons?

  And then they just get. Wax today against the non LeBron Lakers. They had there was some good stats with them. We have the number one defense last 20 games, all this stuff. And and they just. They just got smoked and they kind of looked like the bad version of the of the Knicks, this little Jekyll and Hyde thing they have going. What did you see in that game? What'd you see?

• 36:48Speaker 01

  I've seen pieces of it. I'm going to go back and watch the the whole thing tomorrow, but I I saw a team that has been, you know, that I the Lakers played really well in that game. I mean, that's the first thing. The Lakers side was a good Lakers game.

• 37:01Bill Simmons?

  Really was.

• 37:02Speaker 01

  The Knicks, you know, they've. Their losses tend to be loud, like the two Detroit losses.

• 37:09Bill Simmons?

  The Laker losses.

• 37:09Speaker 01

  The Cleveland loss, the Laker loss today, losing by 13. McIlbray just puts up zero. And, you know, the Knicks are, I was texting with a friend of mine who's a huge Knicks fan. And he was just over the moon after the Denver game and just, I'm all in on the team. And that was, that was as good of a road win as you can have in the NBA, just taking it to the Nuggets like that. And I picked the Knicks to make the finals. I, I haven't been convinced to pick anyone else over them in a complete way yet, but I, I texted him back. I was like, there's, they seem to, no matter what kind of run they're on, you're always like one weird cat game or one weird Bridges game away from being like, ooh, something is, it's just a strange.

• 37:52Bill Simmons?

  What happened?

• 37:52Speaker 01

  Strange brew that way.

• 37:55Bill Simmons?

  I agree. I, there's a, there's a number four seed subplot with the East that I think is worth mentioning. Where you could be in the two, three and know that you're going to not only probably play Miami. I think Miami's going to get to the six seed. So you two, three, if you're the three, you play Miami in round one, and then you play the two seed in round two and you're on the road. Or you could just drop down to four, you play Toronto in round one and then take your chances with Detroit. And to me, that's the more palatable path. I don't know how you feel about it, but that two, three feels a little quagmirey to me.

• 38:30Speaker 01

  Interesting. Yeah. You know, look, Toronto is only a game ahead of Orlando and Miami now in the fifth spot. So, you know, let's.

• 38:37Bill Simmons?

  Right. So that could even swing even more.

• 38:40Speaker 01

  And that was another, and they can't beat anyone good. I mean, that was another great win for the Knicks. They went to Toronto and blew them out and Toronto just can't beat any of the good teams in the NBA. So to, to backing up your point that if you can park your way into a matchup against them, maybe that is a little less terrifying than seeing Spo stride up and down the sidelines and like, what kind of zone can we throw at these guys? Triangle and two, should we bust that out? They'd blow their minds. That's, that's the heat, man.

• 39:05Bill Simmons?

  And then the Lakers really quick, nine and two without LeBron, which is a record that will be brought up over and over again over the next 12 to 18 hours as the talk shows kick in.

• 39:17Speaker 01

  You know who had, you know who had never had a record like that when they were injured? Michael Jordan, Bill. That never happened to Michael Jordan. Okay?

• 39:23Bill Simmons?

  Michael Jordan.

• 39:26Bill Simmons?

  I just like when it's Luca and Reeves. Like just remove LeBron out of it. I think that's the foundation of a really good team because you could build the right team around those two guys.

• 39:35Speaker 01

  You know who else thinks that?

• 39:36Bill Simmons?

  They're gonna be your worst defenders.

• 39:37Speaker 01

  You know who else thinks that? The Lakers.

• 39:39Bill Simmons?

  I know. I know. And I think they like Kyrie together. Yeah, they like playing together. So you can see the vision. I don't know why they didn't start the vision in February and this is just a really weird situation for LeBron because he's still, it's not like he's washed up. But this has been a weird fit for him the whole season. We've known it. You can watch it. You can see it for, with your own eyes. And I don't know where he ends up next year, but it just, I find it hard to believe it's gonna be the Lakers.

• 40:07Speaker 01

  I, I do too.

• 40:08Bill Simmons?

  I still think it's gonna be Golden State.

• 40:09Speaker 01

  I, I, I find it hard to believe it's gonna be the Lakers, but as you've pointed out, like I, I kind of find every scenario a little hard to believe.

• 40:17Bill Simmons?

  Golden State needs them. I think Golden State would be the team.

• 40:19Speaker 01

  Yes, I mean, Golden State needs something because this has been a hell of a depressing season for the Warriors. I mean, they still play hard and they, they, they play a fun style of play when Steph's there, but this is, this is not gonna be the most fun stretch run in Warriors history.

• 40:32Bill Simmons?

  There's been some good Warriors news. I bought a, I bought a small condo on Guy Santos Archipelago.

• 40:38Speaker 01

  Guy Gulch?

• 40:39Bill Simmons?

  Guy Gulch. I bought, I bought some property on DeSanto Straits.

• 40:46Speaker 01

  So today, they just paid him.

• 40:48Bill Simmons?

  They did. They paid him a good, a good, what was it? Five a year for three years?

• 40:52Speaker 01

  Yeah, he's a solid player. He's a very, very Steve Kerr player. Like it's like, it's like just central casting Steve Kerr player.

• 41:00Bill Simmons?

  We gotta talk about the Spurs too because uh,

• 41:02Speaker 01

  Oh yeah.

• 41:03Bill Simmons?

  They had an awesome weekend. They came back from 25 against the Clippers. I was watching a movie with my wife. I had the TV on the small screen, never turned it off, even when it was like 75 to 50.

• 41:13Speaker 01

  Oh, hold on. What, what movie?

• 41:15Bill Simmons?

  I don't want to say.

• 41:16Speaker 01

  And, okay, and, and could you?

• 41:18Bill Simmons?

  It wasn't, it wasn't a movie. It was this TV show called Vladimir.

• 41:23Speaker 01

  I'm unfamiliar. Clearly, you're not that invested in it if you have half at one eye on Wemby over here.

• 41:28Bill Simmons?

  It's with Rachel Weisz. She's like a professor. It's a Netflix show. It's basically my wife. It's her algorithm is just like, they put the show on Netflix and then her algorithm, there's a hammer that actually comes out of the TV and hits her with it. Cause it's so like in her wheelhouse according to the algorithm. Like, you will watch this now. So that was on and we were also watching the Spurs game. I mean, Spurs Clippers. So Niederhauser, who I was just touting to you a week ago.

• 41:55Speaker 01

  Such a bummer.

• 41:56Bill Simmons?

  And the fear with Niederhauser is like, this guy's a maniac. He tries to block everything. He's gonna get hurt. Of course, he gets hurt trying to make some crazy block out for the year. And you could really feel it in that Spurs game, because you could only ride the Brook Lopez Express for so long. Great comeback for the Spurs. I have no idea why Wemby cried at the end.

• 42:14Speaker 01

  As I said, did you, did you?

• 42:15Bill Simmons?

  Just dumbfounding.

• 42:16Speaker 01

  Did you weep? Or did Vladimir make you weep? Was there any weeping?

• 42:19Bill Simmons?

  I would have only wept if I had the Clippers in a parlay. But, so they had a big comeback win on national TV and then they really, you know, thrashed the Rockets today. And look scary. And we've talked about, is it too soon? And we've had all the Spurs conversations you could possibly have at this point. I gotta talk about Dylan Harper a little bit.

• 42:39Speaker 01

  Oh, my God.

• 42:40Bill Simmons?

  Who I've liked the whole year.

• 42:45Bill Simmons?

  I haven't seen a rookie guard like this in a long time and I'm having trouble fitting him in the context of rookie guards we've seen since we've watched basketball.

• 42:56Bill Simmons?

  He, he can't really shoot, right? He's not, if it's, if it's an open three, I don't think it's going in.

• 43:02Speaker 01

  Three of four today.

• 43:04Bill Simmons?

  He's got this cra- this combination, like, he's really nice along the baseline. He's, likes to have his back on guys. So I guess like the comparison, maybe it would be a little Jason Kidd. Like, very comfortable in, with a little space near the low block with his back to a guy, ready to go either way. Gets to the rim. There's crazy rim stats with him. Like, it's basically him and centers and, and, you know, big forwards with like finishing at the rim.

• 43:36Bill Simmons?

  And I don't know where we're going.

• 43:39Bill Simmons?

  But I don't know if there's much of a ceiling for this because when he learns how to shoot, when he gets a floater, combined with the back to the basket with the way he uses his body and bounces off dudes and how hard he plays, I'm starting to wonder if there's some Jason Kidd kind of potential, even though they're different players.

• 43:58Speaker 01

  62 combined points for Fox, Castle and Harper today. Throw in another 20 for Kelton Johnson before you even get to Wemba Yama. I mean, the depth of scoring and rim attacking they have is crazy. And what I love, I mean, I could not love Harper and Castle anymore. I mean, and aside from all the highlight plays that Castle delivers, all the sort of classic attacking guard stuff that Harper has, they're just so tough and so competitive and they want, they want to outwork you and out physical you. And I can't remember how this possession ended up, but there was one possession in that game, somebody on the Spurs missed and Harper had Finney Smith on him on the left side and was just like, I'm getting this fucking rebound. You're not stopping me from getting this offensive rebound.

• 44:43Speaker 01

  And he ended up tipping it out to somebody and I think someone made a three. And it's just like, those are the plays from a rookie guard, a tap out offensive rebound for Castle, a second year guard. Yeah, give me, give me Kevin Durant. Like I'll, I'll do my best to guard him. And then, you know, you saw today, the Rockets put their Shengun on him to start the game and it had him on, on Castle for much of the game, which is a strategy that I've been seeing all year. I think the Spurs are going to see at some point. They saw it today and it didn't work because Castle figured it out. But those are the kind of plays that they make at such a young age and they're just winning, they're winning basketball plays. They are, they evince a competitiveness and a toughness that rookie guards who want to score and make a name for themselves, like you don't see plays like that.

• 45:28Speaker 01

  Like this team is so together, they play so unselfishly. They have sequences of ball movement for a young team where you're like a team that's young shouldn't be able to like just bim, bim, boom, boom, boom. The ball's flying around. It's, it's really impressive and those two guys are awesome.

• 45:45Bill Simmons?

  I'm glad you brought that up because one of my takeaways watching today was they play like they've been playing together for a few years, which I think is the rarest place you can get to as a team. Like they really like understand each other and where, where the next guy's going to be and how to use each other and how to play. Even that play they ran at the end of the half, when they got Wemby that three, it was just. They're very well prepared. Some of the credit's gotta go to the coach. And then everybody plays hard, which is the other thing. And it's very similar to the Celtics and the Pistons, where it's like, you're not playing if you don't play hard. The thing with Harper, usually when rookie guards that are super talented come in, they have their things they can do, right? And they're like, I can do this. I can really get to the rim. I'm a really good shooter, you know?

• 46:29Bill Simmons?

  They'll have these skills that they can kind of dwell on, but they're not basketball players yet. And I think what's was just so bizarre about him is like, what a good like team basketball player he is, which is why I brought up the kid thing. Like, he's just really smart. It's I didn't watch enough of that Rutgers team last year, who it sucked. It was him and Ace Bailey and nobody else. It's amazing to me he could ever be on a bad basketball team. Cause he knows where to go, what to do, how to play off guys. I'm just really excited for him. And then big picture, you think like, for the league, this is a disaster that they ended up with Castle and Harper with Wemby. And these guys are all 24, 23 and under?

• 47:13Speaker 01

  And they have, they're 47 and 17 now. And Wemby, I mean-

• 47:19Bill Simmons?

  This team could win the title, like for real. I don't mean that's not even a hot take anymore. This is one of, I would say probably the number two pick you would have to win the title at this point.

• 47:29Speaker 01

  Christmas is what finally, not finally, Christmas was when I said they can win the championship. And, and nothing has changed. In fact, it's just gotten clear to me that despite the experience factor, and they would be somewhat anomalous among championship teams. They have enough and they have a guy who's-

• 47:45Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, I don't care anymore.

• 47:46Speaker 01

  He's a top five guy. And today was like, you know, you mentioned how the Spurs play unselfishly, super competitive, super hard. It, they drafted a bunch of guys who play that way. But when your best player is unselfish and Wemba Yama's unselfish, one of my favorite things about him, and, and plays super hard, no one else has any choice but to play unselfishly and super hard, especially when you start winning. And today- You know, I know we're going to talk MVP a little bit and there's just so much uncertainty about who's going to be eligible and who's going to be not, not going to be eligible. But today was like, Wemby should be in the conversation if, if, I think Shay still has a clear lead and a clear case, but if he's not eligible, like Wemby has as good

• 48:26Speaker 01

  of a case minus the minutes, he's a little behind in minutes, but you just feel him every single second on the floor and the defensive dominance is just unheard of what he's doing on defense.

• 48:40Bill Simmons?

  His odds during that game dropped from 20 to 1 to 15 to 1 on FanDuel.

• 48:44Speaker 01

  That was an MVP, that was an MVP performance tonight.

• 48:46Bill Simmons?

  He has, uh, he's in the fourth, he's in the third spot now. He's past Cade.

• 48:53Bill Simmons?

  Jokic is 9 to 1 and Shay is 4 to 1. Look, I don't know if this is the 90 bowls or the 91 bowls, but we're in that vicinity with this team where you have a potential generational star and you have a loaded young cast and the only question is when is this all going to come together? That's, that's where we are now with this team. And, and I went back and I looked at the 90 bowls, they were 55 and 27. They lost to Detroit in seven. That was the Pippen-Mai grand game. Jordan was probably, you know, he's, he's Jordan. He's the best player ever, but he was a little older than Wemby. He'd been a couple of years in college and he'd been in the league for six years at that point. So he's probably a little further ahead than Wemby was, but it's the same thing. It's like these guys

• 49:38Bill Simmons?

  that you, when you're watching a basketball game like that, you could bring in my mom, you could bring in your wife, you could bring in your daughter, you could bring in my, you can bring in anybody and be like, does this guy seem a little different than everyone else in the game? And the answer is yes, he does. He's doing all of these things I don't watch other players do, combined with the identity they have. And like what they did to Durant today, I thought was just a sign that you're a really well-coached together team, right? They're like, we're just, we're going to do these three things to make it really hard for him. We're going to have Keldon Johnson mugging him. We're going to pick up the ball with him at half court. We're just going to make it really uncomfortable for him the entire game. And they did it. And that was one of the reasons they won. So I think about them versus OKC if Jalen Williams doesn't.

• 50:23Bill Simmons?

  Really become Jalen Williams again in the playoffs. Could they take out Shay?

• 50:29Bill Simmons?

  No, could they? Could they make it really hard for him and make other guys in that team basically have to make plays or they're going home? Yes.

• 50:38Speaker 01

  Well, we've seen that. I mean, we've seen.

• 50:40Bill Simmons?

  And we've seen it.

• 50:40Speaker 01

  They're four and one against them. And today, the Wemby.

• 50:43Bill Simmons?

  I don't know. Playoffs is different, though.

• 50:45Speaker 01

  But I don't know. Today, the thing that stood out to me about Wemby against the Rockets was. You see some games like this and some games where he doesn't do it. I don't know if it's a, he was fresher in these games, or he just likes to match up better, or whatever it is. Today, he did the thing where he just, when he faced up off the dribble, he did the thing where I'm taking an extra step to the basket, to the point where I can just reach my arm out. And I'm at the basket. He had one on him and Thompson like that. He had another one against somebody else. And when he does that, you wonder, why doesn't he do that every time? And there's just something about that night, that matchup. But today, he had a clear directive in his mind of like, I'm taking the extra step or half step off the bounce to the, and just reaching my way to easy buckets.

• 51:30Speaker 01

  And when he has those kind of baskets, that's when you feel helpless. That's when you feel like there's just nothing we can do.

• 51:36Bill Simmons?

  You know, I remember saying this early on in the Wemby experience that I didn't like how, first of all, the playing him as a guard, I've always, I never liked. I understand they had to go through the process of it, but it was like, the question with him will be, when does he realize that the closer he is to the rim, the more devastating he's going to be? And it seems like he's realizing that in real time, to your point. Like, hey, I'm seven foot four and I have long arms. And if I'm three feet from the basket, odds are something good's going to happen. He's just, you know, and then you talk about the defense. The Celtics play them on Tuesday. And I look at somebody like Pritchard, who was doing his thing this Cleveland game, right? All that herky jerky, low post, up fake, just maybe stick to threes for this Wemby game, Pritch.

• 52:21Speaker 01

  Reed Shepard made a couple over him in the lane today.

• 52:25Bill Simmons?

  It's man, it's high risk. Castle over Shepard? Shepard's been good the last month, I think. It's not like he's a bust or anything, but that's, it's interesting. I wonder if they would redo that one, the Rockets, because they took Shepard third, Castle went fourth. I bet I would redo it. I like Shepard, but come on.

• 52:43Speaker 01

  I bet they would say no. I think they were just.

• 52:46Bill Simmons?

  What about after three drinks?

• 52:49Speaker 01

  They would, they would crack a little bit. You'd start to hear anecdotes that you didn't hear before, but they, they were all, I mean, they were all.

• 52:56Bill Simmons?

  What about after we do fireball shots?

• 53:01Bill Simmons?

  Then it's good.

• 53:02Speaker 01

  How many drinks are you gonna serve them? My god.

• 53:05Bill Simmons?

  You crack!

• 53:07Bill Simmons?

  A few readers have suggested to me that KD's nickname should be the burner.

• 53:16Speaker 01

  I mean, it works on, on multiple levels. It's, it's.

• 53:19Bill Simmons?

  Thirty-five for the burner!

• 53:21Speaker 01

  You guys had a whole KD nickname discussion, which I really enjoyed about how.

• 53:26Bill Simmons?

  Slim Reaper.

• 53:27Speaker 01

  He unilaterally was like, that awesome nickname I don't like. Easy Money Sniper's better, not Slim Reaper. Like Slim Reaper was, it just minted. It's so good. And he just didn't like it. The burner. I'm ac- I actually thought today. I'm a little bit surprised that road crowds haven't found a creative way to throw this in his face a little bit. I don't know if it's gonna take the wall.

• 53:53Bill Simmons?

  No, we're not allowed to do that anymore. Crowds aren't allowed to be mean.

• 53:57Speaker 01

  Everybody knows. Like, the fans all know now. And I feel like I'm a little surprised that it just hasn't come up. The wall, I bet if they play at the Clippers, I bet the fanatics who sit in the wall will do something.

• 54:08Bill Simmons?

  I got an email. I'm trying to find it and I can't find it. Just because I was asking about the best nicknames of all time. And the guy said, the best nickname of all time is Magic Johnson. People literally think it's his name. That's the last stage of a nickname when nobody even really, they forget you have a real name. And I think that's a really good point. Magic Johnson, it's such a good nickname that he had other nicknames. Right? I think some people called him Buck. It was like the nickname for them. When you have the second nickname, because your first nickname, people think is your actual name, it's a final level nickname.

• 54:42Speaker 02

  I'm pro football Hall of Famer Brian Dawkins, and I lived for a long time with something I did not know the name of. Major depressive disorder. I carry sadness and anger because I thought I could handle it alone, but I couldn't. Now I want to make sure others know that that support is out there. If you're experiencing similar symptoms, talk to a healthcare professional. Visit mddallies.com to watch my story.

• 55:08Speaker 03

  Paid partnership with Johnson & Johnson. Brian Dawkins has not prescribed Caplyta lumateperone.

• 55:20Speaker 04

  I needed more from my antidepressant, so my doctor added Caplyta lumateperone, proven to provide greater relief from depression symptoms than an antidepressant alone, building on my progress without starting over. Caplyta is for adults with major depressive disorder when used with an antidepressant and is available by prescription only. Individual results may vary. In clinical trials, weight gain was not common.

• 55:40Speaker 03

  Elderly dementia patients have increased risk of death or stroke. Caplyta is not approved for dementia-related psychosis. Call your doctor about new or sudden mood changes, behaviors, or suicidal thoughts right away. Antidepressants may increase these risks. Report fever, confusion, stiff muscles, which may be life-threatening, or uncontrolled muscle movements, which may be permanent. High cholesterol and weight gain may occur, as can high blood sugar, which may be fatal. Monitoring is recommended. Common side effects are sleepiness, dizziness, nausea, dry mouth, feeling tired, and diarrhea. These aren't all the side effects.

• 56:07Speaker 04

  Ask your doctor about Caplyta. Learn more at caplyta.com or call 888-252-4824.

• 56:13Bill Simmons?

  It's football season, and Uber Eats is delivering deals every single day. This week, buy a four-piece signature chicken from Popeyes and get another one free on Uber Eats. When your watch party gets hungry, order in and keep everyone's attention where it matters on the game. Order a four-piece signature chicken from Popeyes. Get another one free. No matter who scores big tonight, you'll score great deals on Uber Eats all season long because it's not football without food. It really isn't. Popeyes offer valid through November 1st. Add eligible menu item to order prior to checkout. Taxes, fees, and terms apply. Product availability varies by region. Exclusions may apply. See app for details.

• 56:52Speaker 02

  I'm pro-football Hall of Famer Brian Dawkins, and I lived for a long time with something I did not know the name of: major depressive disorder. I carry sadness and anger because I thought I could handle it alone, but I couldn't. Now I want to make sure others know that that support is out there. If you're experiencing similar symptoms, talk to a healthcare professional. Visit mddallies.com to watch my story.

• 57:17Speaker 03

  Paid partnership with Johnson & Johnson. Brian Dawkins has not prescribed Caplyta lumateperone.

• 57:29Speaker 04

  I needed more from my antidepressant. So my doctor added Caplyta lumateperone, proven to provide greater relief from depression symptoms than an antidepressant alone, building on my progress without starting over. Caplyta is for adults with major depressive disorder when used with an antidepressant and is available by prescription only. Individual results may vary. In clinical trials, weight gain was not common.

• 57:49Speaker 03

  Elderly dementia patients have increased risk of death or stroke. Caplyta is not approved for dementia-related psychosis. Call your doctor about new or sudden mood changes, behaviors, or suicidal thoughts right away. Antidepressants may increase these risks. Report fever, confusion, stiff muscles, which may be life-threatening, or uncontrolled muscle movements, which may be permanent. High cholesterol and weight gain may occur, as can high blood sugar, which may be fatal. Monitoring is recommended. Common side effects are sleepiness, dizziness, nausea, dry mouth, feeling tired, and diarrhea. These aren't all the side effects.

• 58:16Speaker 04

  Ask your doctor about Caplyta. Learn more at caplyta.com or call 888-252-4824.

• 58:23Bill Simmons?

  Playoff matchups. Detroit versus Philly, Atlanta, or Charlotte? Boston versus Miami? New England versus... New York versus Orlando? Cleveland versus Toronto in the East? Then in the West? OKC versus bizarre Golden State, Clippers, Portland? None of us are that excited to even have this series. I wonder if you offered any of those teams, you could have the 10th pick or play in round one, what they would take?

• 58:51Speaker 01

  A bunch of them are taking the 10th pick.

• 58:53Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, that's what I think, too. San Antonio, Phoenix? Which we're gonna have to fix that series somehow. Minnesota versus the Lakers? Which would be a mismatch. And then Houston versus Denver? Would be our four matchups. We need some work with that. I would personally like to see OKC, Phoenix, and San Antonio in the one seed. Would be more fun.

• 59:15Speaker 01

  What is your... I don't remember if they're playing tonight. What is your current Denver concern level after Aaron Gordon came back and they got thrashed by the Knicks at home?

• 59:27Bill Simmons?

  Here's what I'm...

• 59:28Speaker 01

  And Murray turned his ankle.

• 59:31Bill Simmons?

  So Jokic looked better this weekend. That was a bonus. Murray did get hurt. I am now in the, hey, Denver, just fall to six and get everybody healthy.

• 59:43Bill Simmons?

  That the last 20 games don't even.

• 59:45Speaker 01

  But are you, are you still?

• 59:47Bill Simmons?

  Be careful.

• 59:48Speaker 01

  Are you still, do you still have faith in the Denver fully healthy? Is it, is it juggernaut or are you starting to wobble on like, well, we just haven't seen a lot of Cam Johnson and like?

• 1:00:00Bill Simmons?

  Oh, I'm wobbling. I wrote down in my, I had a quickie thought section I was gonna do with the, and one of them is Denver possible year from mini hell. Not year from hell. It's a year from mini hell. It's like they can't have a week without something happening, right?

• 1:00:12Speaker 01

  I call it, it's not our year year.

• 1:00:15Bill Simmons?

  That's fair.

• 1:00:17Speaker 01

  I don't know if they're having it, but they, they seem to be having a year. If you had it, it would look a lot like this.

• 1:00:23Bill Simmons?

  It's, well, remember there was a couple KG Celtics years where they were like 25 and 25 in their last 50? And then all of a sudden they would be in the Eastern finals. And you'd be like, how did I, how did I ever doubt them?

• 1:00:35Bill Simmons?

  If I were them, I wouldn't care about where I landed in this three, four, five, six. Just like, whatever.

• 1:00:40Speaker 01

  I don't, I don't think.

• 1:00:41Bill Simmons?

  Let's get everybody healthy. Yeah. Let's get everyone healthy. Um, I have a new gimmick for you that I had not prepared you for. Completely unprepared stock draft.

• 1:00:51Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 1:00:52Bill Simmons?

  Buy stock in two guys right now.

• 1:00:55Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 1:00:55Bill Simmons?

  I can start if you want.

• 1:00:57Speaker 01

  Wait, I'm just, just anybody in the entire NBA?

• 1:00:59Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, just guys you've been looking at, not, not necessarily putting real estate on their island, but just you're buying some stock.

• 1:01:05Speaker 01

  So I'm not buying Jokic stock, but we're, we're searching for a buy low under the radar.

• 1:01:09Bill Simmons?

  You're buying 2015 Jokic stock.

• 1:01:11Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 1:01:13Bill Simmons?

  2016, when did he come in the league?

• 1:01:15Speaker 01

  Can you go first?

• 1:01:16Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, I'll go first. I'd like to put a little down. I'm gonna call my guy. Carter Bryan, I'd like to put some stuff, stuff down on him.

• 1:01:25Speaker 01

  Nah, I mean, you're making me angry with that one.

• 1:01:28Bill Simmons?

  That was, that's, he's really the only reason I wanted to have the stock draft. Friday and Sunday, the crowd's cheering for him now, like they're chanting his name, which is a good sign, but uh, I like that he's one of those quiet assassin, just killer swing guys. He probably is not gonna get into it once with anybody. He just, if you knock him down, he'll just get up. He's like a Michael Myers. And he's bigger than you think he is. It seems like there, it seems like he can guard basically everybody in the league. He hits threes, he's athletic, and they got him at the 14th pick. It was a great draft pick, and he's gonna be in that team for a while.

• 1:02:05Speaker 01

  That's a great, it's a great.

• 1:02:06Bill Simmons?

  I'm putting down a little on him.

• 1:02:07Speaker 01

  Slam dunk runner-up, I believe. So his, his playoff viability, clearly they are trying to make him playoff-ready now. And, and when he was not playing much in the regular season, he's an every-game player now. Because defensively, he's A+. He's ready for the playoffs. He's ready for the highest level of stuff. It's just gonna be about his offensive readiness, and not even just about his threes. Shooting 33%. It's a little hit or miss. He had a couple, like, plays today where you could see a little tentativeness in him when he, they, they put, Houston put centers on him and kind of dared him to beat him and attack him. And he had a couple of plays in traffic where he's like, I don't know, I'm gonna pivot around here. And like, that's the kind of stuff that in the playoffs, you can get a quick hook, if you're

• 1:02:49Speaker 01

  a young player, rookie, untested like that. All right, should I make a pick?

• 1:02:54Bill Simmons?

  You can do one. Yeah, we can only do one if you want. Because I, neither has, there's by the run.

• 1:02:58Speaker 01

  I, I, who was your other one?

• 1:03:00Bill Simmons?

  I still have Naderhazer stock. I don't care that he gets hurt. I love that guy.

• 1:03:03Speaker 01

  You should hold that stock. That's the whole.

• 1:03:04Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, I'm gonna hold it. Yeah, I didn't panic.

• 1:03:06Speaker 01

  I'm gonna, I'm just gonna, I mean, again, no preparation. I'm assuming Alex Sar is too, too high-profile for this. Where we want.

• 1:03:13Bill Simmons?

  No, it's just the stock's higher, but you can still buy it.

• 1:03:16Speaker 01

  I'm gonna buy some Alex Sar stock, and I'm gonna, I'm gonna sneak in right now to the Malo Watch stock market in Phoenix. I'm gonna buy a little on the Malo Watch Marina. I'm gonna plant my flag in there and, and just, it's, it's, Mark Williams is hurt, and I think he's gonna get some run. And he blocked four shots the other night. I'm just gonna, I'm gonna buy now.

• 1:03:37Bill Simmons?

  Interesting. Yeah. Because I was wondering what happened to him. Because House really liked him coming out of college.

• 1:03:42Speaker 01

  He's been dominating the, he's been like Goliath in the G League, for whatever that's worth.

• 1:03:47Bill Simmons?

  Okay.

• 1:03:49Speaker 01

  Noah Penda? Can I buy some Noah Penda stock? Noah Penny Penda stock?

• 1:03:53Bill Simmons?

  You definitely could if you wanted to. This is a guy that I've had stock for a while, from way back. Sold it, did really well. I think it's low right now. People aren't seeing it.

• 1:04:06Bill Simmons?

  Like a little Robert Williams III.

• 1:04:10Bill Simmons?

  I know he's older, but for this summer. I think this could be one of those Robert Williams just signed for three years for 50 million. What happened? I think there's going to be another, another, uh, another cycle for him as a guy that, that good teams talked themselves into as a playoff guy.

• 1:04:29Speaker 01

  Three years, 50, I don't see it. I don't see it. He's just not, he's just not available.

• 1:04:33Bill Simmons?

  Really stupid contract that you'd be surprised by. I mean, Jakob Pertl did get a crazy extension that I didn't understand as that was happening.

• 1:04:40Speaker 01

  It was crazy and untradable.

• 1:04:43Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, whatever. But I, I think Robert Williams is going to have a moment as a free agency center with a deal higher than you think.

• 1:04:50Speaker 01

  Which Brooklyn Nets rookie would you prefer to buy stock in right now based on, and they're priced differently? Like Joe Man is a little higher price because where he was picked, like if you had to buy one, are you going on, uh, you know, the, the wolf, the wolf then what are you, what are you going in?

• 1:05:04Bill Simmons?

  Definitely not him.

• 1:05:05Speaker 01

  Wow.

• 1:05:07Bill Simmons?

  I don't mind, uh, Traore.

• 1:05:09Speaker 01

  He's pretty good.

• 1:05:11Bill Simmons?

  Yeah. And I think he's 19. I think if, if it was like, you could only keep one of these five guys who you keep in, I, I actually think I might keep him over the other four. But, um, pretty rough that, that draft, when you think of some of the other guys that were in that draft.

• 1:05:28Speaker 01

  Don't say that to Nets fans. They're going to be like, you're missing, you're missing the three minutes in garbage time where Traore hit a scoop shot and Drake Powell guard. I'm like, it's all right. Great. Awesome.

• 1:05:37Bill Simmons?

  They passed on Hugo five times.

• 1:05:42Bill Simmons?

  That's unbelievable.

• 1:05:43Speaker 01

  Hugo gets in, gets him.

• 1:05:44Bill Simmons?

  Did they take Agar? They took him over Coward, right?

• 1:05:47Speaker 01

  Yeah. And if, and a few other good players too.

• 1:05:49Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, that's a tough one.

• 1:05:51Speaker 01

  He's pretty good. He's pretty good. But again, like it's, he's, he's pretty good on a team that's horrible and, and you would like him to put up a little bit more, uh,

• 1:05:58Bill Simmons?

  I have one more stock guy that I've had for a couple of weeks. Jacoby unfortunately cornered the market on it, but Naquan Tomlin.

• 1:06:06Bill Simmons?

  I have a little on him. I don't even know if we saw him today.

• 1:06:09Speaker 01

  We did not.

• 1:06:11Bill Simmons?

  I like him.

• 1:06:13Bill Simmons?

  He's pretty good.

• 1:06:13Speaker 01

  He's an incredible story.

• 1:06:15Bill Simmons?

  It's like a penny stock.

• 1:06:16Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:06:16Bill Simmons?

  Did you have any others?

• 1:06:18Speaker 01

  I mean.

• 1:06:19Bill Simmons?

  Anybody on Philly? Daryl always has one or two guys to buy in on. Barlow probably shot up a little bit.

• 1:06:25Speaker 01

  Yeah, I'm, I'm, I'm, he's fine. I bet, I feel like the stock is probably overpriced right now.

• 1:06:31Bill Simmons?

  All right, a couple of other things really quick before we go to the two things we had.

• 1:06:37Bill Simmons?

  Rob Dillingham, just a sunk cost, I guess.

• 1:06:40Speaker 01

  It's not, it's not going great.

• 1:06:42Bill Simmons?

  A rare L for, uh, Tim Connolly.

• 1:06:47Bill Simmons?

  It's a tough trade. You do that.

• 1:06:50Bill Simmons?

  Giving up an unprotected pick down the road, you gotta feel really good about the player. And. If it, like, one of the things I think about, and I think the draft's interesting because there's a bunch of like really exciting scoring guards in this draft. You don't follow the draft, but it's like probably the best. Crew of scoring guards we've had, and some of them are smaller and some of them are bigger. It seems like where teams get in trouble over and over again are these undersized shooting guards or undersized point guards like the Sebastian Telfair. Um, the Book Night. The, the, the, the guy we're talking about now, like the, the, these guy, Dillingham, these. These guys that you talk yourself into and they just end up, they're too small.

• 1:07:32Speaker 01

  Jimmer, do I hear Jimmer's music?

• 1:07:34Bill Simmons?

  Jimmer is definitely in there too. But it seems like that's a recurring theme that you're probably just better off taking a six, seven guy who can't shoot, hoping he learns how to shoot. Versus an undersized guard.

• 1:07:45Speaker 01

  I just can't believe how little he's playing. Uh, he has played since being traded to the Bulls. His minutes are up a little bit lately, but, um, I thought they would just be like, hey, just do make, don't be afraid to make all the mistakes that Minnesota could not afford to have you make. Make them here.

• 1:07:58Bill Simmons?

  And are they tanking? They're not tanking? What are they doing?

• 1:08:00Speaker 01

  They're tanking.

• 1:08:01Bill Simmons?

  Okay. And they, they, every time I think they're tanking, they win. Adam Silver was at Sloan and laid the smackdown with tanking?

• 1:08:10Speaker 01

  I saw in his very, in his, Adam Silver can only lay the smackdown like a lawyer, like a highly trained cravat lawyer.

• 1:08:17Bill Simmons?

  But if you read, if you put it through your Adam Silver translator. The translator spat out, we are changing this and there's going to be real rules put in place after this draft was my interpretation.

• 1:08:27Speaker 01

  I don't want to hear, I didn't use, I, when he says, I'm an incrementalist, which is fine, like there's going to be change and I, I don't want to hear from the peanut gallery over here of owners that are against it. We're, we're doing it, so buckle up.

• 1:08:42Bill Simmons?

  Shaq didn't know who Baylor Shireman was?

• 1:08:45Speaker 01

  I didn't see this. That's real?

• 1:08:47Bill Simmons?

  That was tough.

• 1:08:48Speaker 01

  He's been starting for the number two team in the East.

• 1:08:50Bill Simmons?

  Wrote that one down. Yeah, I know. It's like a running gimmick that these guys don't know who's on. And I know we all love the inside the NBA guys, but you could know who who's in the rotation for the best six teams in the league. I feel like seems a reasonable request from the fans. Has this Bucks season reached everyone might get fired status yet?

• 1:09:12Bill Simmons?

  Because I'll give you their last 17 games.

• 1:09:13Speaker 01

  You're just trying to manifest Doc Rivers podcast guests. That's all you're doing. Be honest.

• 1:09:18Bill Simmons?

  No, I'm more worried because I like Doc Rivers. I want I want him to have a job. They're nine and eight in their last 17. Here are the eight losses.

• 1:09:26Speaker 01

  You don't even need to. They stink. We don't need to hear the losses.

• 1:09:29Bill Simmons?

  This is pretty good.

• 1:09:31Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 1:09:31Bill Simmons?

  They lost by the following numbers of points. 28, 19, 28, 29, 23, 27, 18, and today 39. They don't just lose. They get annihilated. They get blown out. They had Giannis for the 27 and the 18. And we were here a week ago, wondering if things were going to turn around for them. And the answer is no.

• 1:09:56Bill Simmons?

  So you don't think this is a blow it up this this summer for them?

• 1:10:00Speaker 01

  Oh.

• 1:10:00Bill Simmons?

  Everybody goes. Like everybody. I'm talking GM, coach. We're just it's a reset button. Nuclear boom. Giannis is gone. New people and we're doing a four year tank. The whole thing.

• 1:10:12Speaker 01

  It's definitely possible and the honest story is not over just because he didn't get traded at the trade deadline. I think we all know it's it's not over, but you know, I don't think they're going to trade him unless he demands a trade. I just don't think they're going to because they probably correctly understand the abyss that's waiting for them on the other side of being completely irrelevant. And he's still 31 years old and one of the three to five best players in the league. And I think it starts with him now. Could they make changes around him? Sure. We've seen them do that before. They've changed the coach a bunch of times and they would change the coach again in the middle of the season. So anything's on the table. But yeah, they, you know.

• 1:10:49Bill Simmons?

  I have some silver linings for Bucks fans.

• 1:10:53Speaker 01

  Sure. Let's hear them.

• 1:10:56Bill Simmons?

  They won the title four years ago, five years ago?

• 1:10:58Speaker 01

  That's a, that's a, we've downgraded that to silver lining?

• 1:11:01Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, I just, just go back and watch the DVD. That's one. Um, two, if there's expansion, you're not going to lose somebody you really like because you don't have eight players to protect. So that's a good one. And then, uh,

• 1:11:14Speaker 01

  That's mean. That one was mean. You didn't need to, that was mean.

• 1:11:17Bill Simmons?

  Well, it's a silver lining.

• 1:11:19Speaker 01

  What about Thanasis? Will someone take Thanasis in these stands?

• 1:11:22Bill Simmons?

  I don't think so. They relieve him unprotected. And then, uh, you do have your first round pick this year.

• 1:11:28Speaker 01

  Yeah, you do.

• 1:11:28Bill Simmons?

  And there is a scenario where them versus New Orleans, because New Orleans has nothing to play for. They keep winning. They, their picks might be around each other. So they might end up with the pick they would have ended up with anyway, or somewhere around there. It might not. They might not be like, oh, man, we could have blah, blah, blah.

• 1:11:47Bill Simmons?

  What is your time machine Yanis trade? If you could go back in a month and just force a trade? Cause I have a team, I have a trade that I wish would happen because I just think it would have made the league more fun.

• 1:11:57Speaker 01

  I can just do any team, like,

• 1:11:59Bill Simmons?

  You're going backwards a month and you're being like, I know you didn't want to do this, but now I'm forcing you to do this on February 5th. Cause I think there's a specific one.

• 1:12:14Speaker 01

  I'm trying to be realistic for the Bucks, right? Like, I'm not just gonna be like, I want him to go to the Warriors. So I'm going to make a Warriors trade, which you can make a plausible Warriors trade. I think the most interesting one to revisit that's realistic for the Bucks is either, it's going to be one of three teams you're going to bring up. It's going to be either Detroit, Cleveland, or Houston. It's going to be one of those three teams.

• 1:12:36Bill Simmons?

  I had Houston.

• 1:12:36Speaker 01

  Yeah. Who's going in the trade, Shangoon?

• 1:12:40Bill Simmons?

  Shangoon, Jabari, and some picks. And right now, we watched that game tonight and Yanis is on, Yanis is on Houston. We're watching Milwaukee, Shangoon's on Milwaukee, and I just think the league's more interesting and Milwaukee probably feels better about where they are. I know the Milwaukee fans don't want to trade Giannis. I think it is alarming that he came back and they just got crushed a couple of times.

• 1:13:02Speaker 01

  I was gonna say, does our month timetable extend before he got injured? Because I think that was an under, I don't think that was talked about. We all talked about it, but I don't think it was, this assumption that he was just gonna come back and be healthy and 100% and never get injured again. And he's actually come back and looked good, but not like Giannis and is always seemingly at risk of some injury like this.

• 1:13:27Bill Simmons?

  Wanted to mention, haven't heard a lot from Drew Hanlon taking shots at The Ringer lately about how wrong we were about Embiid.

• 1:13:35Bill Simmons?

  Just wanted to open the door for him if he wanted to keep taking the shots. I mean, Embiid's not playing.

• 1:13:41Speaker 01

  This is another just weird, just added to the list of weird injuries. But he did, he did get to do it with Carmelo Anthony this week, I'm sure you saw.

• 1:13:49Bill Simmons?

  He's played 33, 19 and 33 games in the last three years. This is why we can't put him in the top 30 in The Ringer 100. One of the parts of being a high-end NBA player is playing NBA games. That's one of the things we value here at The Ringer.

• 1:14:05Bill Simmons?

  There's gonna be a WNBA strike, I think. I think it looks more likely than less likely. It's a disaster. I don't think it looks good, barring a miracle, but it feels like we're heading that way. And I just wanted to say that I think that sucks. I understand the reasons from both sides, but it's just unbelievable to me that they would stop playing basketball when they finally had momentum after 25 years and now we're not gonna play. I have a list of teams I've given up trying to figure out.

• 1:14:39Bill Simmons?

  Bronze, I'm gonna go bronze, silver, gold. Bronze medal, Houston. Silver medal, Minnesota. Gold medal, Orlando. I just give up.

• 1:14:52Speaker 01

  I was actually gonna ask you, Orlando.

• 1:14:54Bill Simmons?

  I give up. I have no takes. I have no takes. I give up.

• 1:15:01Bill Simmons?

  What's the deal with that team?

• 1:15:03Speaker 01

  What's the deal with the Orlando Magic? Do they know how to do magic?

• 1:15:07Bill Simmons?

  They barely beat Dallas on Wednesday, like barely.

• 1:15:11Speaker 01

  They're fine.

• 1:15:12Bill Simmons?

  Dallas isn't even trying to win. Then they go into Minnesota and they kill Minnesota in Minnesota on Saturday. I don't, I just don't understand them. And I don't understand Minnesota either.

• 1:15:21Speaker 01

  That was one of those games where you're like, what's, what's happening here? I don't understand how this, this Magic Minnesota game is like, the NBA just has funny games. Yeah, they have Washington, Dallas, Minnesota, Milwaukee is their four game winning streak. So forgive me if I'm going to just not go crazy over it because three of the wins are poo poo wins. The Dallas one down to the wire, as you mentioned. The Minnesota wins, they have talent, they're fine. I just, you know, we'll see where they end up.

• 1:15:48Bill Simmons?

  I really wanted to believe in Minnesota. Was dying to believe they were 33 to one to win the title.

• 1:15:56Bill Simmons?

  Heading into that Saturday game and I was like, here we go. They're going to be the three seed.

• 1:15:59Speaker 01

  You're crushed by one loss? That's it? You're out?

• 1:16:02Bill Simmons?

  It's just every time, every time we feel like we're getting momentum with, uh, here's the mystery contender we needed for the stretch run. It's Minnesota and then they just suck in a game.

• 1:16:14Speaker 01

  I'm keeping them as the mystery contender. I'm not, I'm not, I'm not wavering.

• 1:16:17Bill Simmons?

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• 1:17:00Bill Simmons?

  When it comes to clothes that score high in both comfort and style, Viori is my MVP. Sunday performance joggers, oh yeah. They have the perfect, I could watch a game and then go out to dinner vibe. And the Meta pant, that's my number one, I need to look like I tried option. Get 20% off your first purchase at Viori.com slash Simmons and discover the versatility of Viori clothing. Exclusions apply. Visit the website for full terms and conditions. All right, um, we're gonna do our deep dive. So we've done deep dives on, we did Kawhi Leonard. Who did we do last week? Pretty good one last week.

• 1:17:36Speaker 01

  I already forgot. Once, once we're done, I forget.

• 1:17:38Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:17:40Bill Simmons?

  We're gonna do the 2011 MVP race.

• 1:17:43Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 1:17:43Bill Simmons?

  And it's topical because there were some slight parallels until Detroit fell off a little bit and Cade fell off a little bit.

• 1:17:53Bill Simmons?

  Uh oh, what happened with the Hornets? Hold on. Do they, do they?

• 1:18:00Bill Simmons?

  Oh, they're losing. Okay. So.

• 1:18:03Speaker 01

  That's it. We paused. We now, we now pause a podcast in real time because the Hornets are losing?

• 1:18:08Bill Simmons?

  Oh, oh yeah. The deep dive was about the Hornets. Last week. So we did Kawhi and we did the Hornets.

• 1:18:13Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:18:14Bill Simmons?

  We're in the 2011 MVP race because of, uh, slight parallels to what we're watching this year with Cade and there was a brief MVP case for him, but now that Shay's come back, doesn't matter. This is probably, I think then, other than 2017, the most polarizing MVP race since the decision.

• 1:18:34Bill Simmons?

  It wasn't polarizing when it happened because Derrick Rose won.

• 1:18:38Bill Simmons?

  Derrick Rose had 113 first place votes out of 120. Dwight Howard finished second. LeBron James was third and Kobe Bryant was fourth. This was the season after the decision. Chicago was 62 and 20. They started out nine and eight. They finished 55 and 12. They were 24 of their last 27 games. And somewhere along the line, we all decided Derrick Rose was the MVP. And now as the years have passed, because Miami made the finals four straight years, LeBron is who he is. This is a MVP race that people now point to as this should have been LeBron's MVP. You did not vote for either LeBron James?

• 1:19:19Bill Simmons?

  Or Derrick Rose, you didn't have a vote, but your, your fake vote was not for either guy.

• 1:19:25Speaker 01

  I would, I would have been the fourth Dwight Howard voter that season. I just thought he was,

• 1:19:32Speaker 01

  first of all, he was Defensive Player of the Year and it was almost unanimous. It was easily the best defender in the NBA. And it was maybe his best offensive season, 23 points a game, shot well. The advanced stats all loved him. And I just thought, you know, it's interesting. We were, that is so long ago in sort of NBA discourse times that we were just sort of getting into like on off data and stuff like that. And again, when you're doing these races, it's, it's all, you're just splitting the thinnest of hairs between guys who are all deserving. And obviously Derrick Rose was the story of the season. The Bulls were the story of the season. But one of the, one of the arguments that you could make in favor of Dwight Howard, and 15 years later, I probably over indexed on it in picking Dwight Howard,

• 1:20:15Speaker 01

  was the on off data that year. The Magic were awesome with Dwight Howard on the floor. And I think they were negative something. I'm trying to look it up now. With him on the bench and the Bulls were really good with Derrick Rose on the floor and really good with Derrick Rose off the floor because their defense without him was impenetrable. And some of that had to do with Derrick Rose. Some of it was probably just random luck and I probably underestimated the luck factor in that back in 2011. But I think there's, there's an ironclad statistical case for Dwight Howard, not ironclad, but you could make a statistical case for Dwight Howard easily. And I just thought he was the most dominant two-way player in basketball that year. And the LeBron one.

• 1:20:56Bill Simmons?

  Wait, can we talk about Dwight first and then go to LeBron?

• 1:20:58Speaker 01

  Sure.

• 1:20:59Bill Simmons?

  So I had Dwight, I think I had him fifth. And I said, kudos to him for, this is, I wrote a big MVP column that year and I said, kudos to him for getting about 11% better this season. Blah, blah, blah. Magic's only rebounder, only above average defender.

• 1:21:19Bill Simmons?

  60% of his shots, blah, blah, blah. And then I wrote, I can't give my MVP vote for one simple reason. He leaves something on the table every night. Dwight Howard should be the league's most dominant player. Then I had a couple of things about comparing him to Shaq, all this stuff. Shaq's MVP season, where that Shaq MVP season, I wrote, ha, that's the Shaq we were waiting for. I knew he had that extra gear. That's how I feel about Dwight Howard right now. Hakeem averaged a 24 of 14 with 4.6 blocks, 2.1 steals in 1990. It wasn't even one of the best three seasons of his career. I keep going on that. Are you telling me his 23.1 points, 14 rebounds, 2.4 blocks, 26.1 PR is the best he can do? No way.

• 1:22:04Bill Simmons?

  So then I wrote, that's when he asked, wait, why does it matter? If it's better than anyone else's best season, who cares if he peaks as a player? It's still the best season. And then I said, advanced metrics should be used to accentuate opinions. We're already leaning towards having, instead of forming and shaping those same opinions. If Howard is Orlando's best player and he's holding something back every night, how can you say that doesn't affect the Magic? So they had the eighth best record that year. They were 52 and 30. I was saying how he gets dumb technicals.

• 1:22:32Speaker 01

  That was the eighth best record that year?

• 1:22:33Bill Simmons?

  Yeah. Wow. Dump technicals, dump fouls, disappears in crunch time, didn't even rank in top 125 in crunch time field goal attempts. They had an uneven season. Nobody's afraid to play them in the playoffs, blah, blah, blah. How can I vote for him for MVP? That's how I felt in the moment. So I think there's an eye test piece to that where it's like, I just don't feel right saying that this guy is the best guy in the league. You've, you've, you've been, you don't care as much about that. You're more Spock when you do the case. You're like, here's the mathematical case. This guy is the best at this. His record's this. I still slide the eye test stuff in there probably a little too much. I don't know who's right.

• 1:23:12Speaker 01

  Well, I mean, part of the eye test is he was single-handedly making the Magic a good defensive team. Like by himself as easily the best defender, not easily, but the best defensive player in the NBA. I mean, that has to be, when you talk about leaving stuff on the table. Derrick Rose was not a good defensive player that year, so he was leaving stuff on the table.

• 1:23:32Bill Simmons?

  But they were the number one defense.

• 1:23:34Speaker 01

  They were.

• 1:23:34Bill Simmons?

  So he couldn't have been that bad, right?

• 1:23:36Speaker 01

  No, they were way better. They were way better. They were like a freaking juggernaut from hell without him. But that doesn't like, again, all these guys had cases.

• 1:23:47Speaker 01

  Everything you said about Dwight is fair. And that was like the, that was the end of that year of the Magic. That was the last year that team was good.

• 1:23:55Bill Simmons?

  Well, that was the irony of what I wrote is that was his best season.

• 1:23:58Speaker 01

  And I think.

• 1:23:59Bill Simmons?

  And it was like, is there more there? And it's like, no, there actually wasn't.

• 1:24:01Speaker 01

  There wasn't. And there was in fact, less eventually, but it did feel like at that time, he was holding together the last remains of that team that had made the finals and then the conference finals the next year. And they ended up losing in the first round the next two years, and then it was kind of over. And yeah, but I just thought defensively, he was like, he was a floor every night. Like your floor was pretty stable with Dwight Howard in the middle on defense. And yeah, the Shaq thing is, it's so tiresome because Shaq has perpetuated it too. Like they had this rivalry over the years and then they would, you know, reconcile and then they'd be a rival again. He was never as, he's not as big as Shaq. He couldn't just move people out of the way as easily as Shaq could. I mean, Shaq was just, you know, just the eighth wonder of the world kind of guy.

• 1:24:47Speaker 01

  And he just was never a polished post-up player. And those were the years where they, Stan Van Gundy just sort of successfully shoehorned him into, yeah, post up a few times a game when you've got a good matchups and we'll throw you the ball.

• 1:24:59Bill Simmons?

  You feel good about it. Right.

• 1:25:00Speaker 01

  But just do these things you're awesome at and you're going to be the foundation of every single thing we do. Offensively and defensively, you are the tent pole of everything. And I just thought that was his best season.

• 1:25:11Bill Simmons?

  So the stuff I wrote about Rose, and it's weird because over the years I've been like, ah, I got the Rose thing wrong. And then I went back and read how passionate I was about the Rose case about that team was 62 and 20. He was the only guy in the, he carried their offense, was the only guy on their team who really could create his own shot, right? Who else was a little like the Detroit case this year?

• 1:25:35Speaker 01

  There was a little boozer.

• 1:25:38Bill Simmons?

  A little, a little. Usage was pretty crazy in crunch time per 48, second most field goal, eighth most free throw attempts, ninth highest assists. He was doing everything. I was comparing it to the Iverson 01 Sixers thing and just like, um, just everything was on him game after game after game and they won most of their games, which matters. And then Boozer and Noah both, I wrote Rose keeping the Bulls contention for three plus months and Boozer Noah missed significant time was the most impressive thing I witnessed this season. Their quest for number one seed should have been derailed in November, blah, blah, blah. He kept them hanging around, kept them relevant and they were the best team that year. And whether he was the best player was the bigger question because LeBron was still

• 1:26:23Bill Simmons?

  the best player in the league, but that Miami season was super weird. It's interesting. What I wrote in that MVP column was that I thought Wade had a slightly better case than LeBron that year because he was more kind of stable and reliable. LeBron had all that. He was the villain that year. He was a little up and down. There were games when you didn't know where his head was. But I really said both, they were basically co-MVPs, which I talked about co-MVP seasons of 1970, Reid and Frazier, 72, Jerry West, Will Chamberlain and 06 Shaq and Wade. It was really like hard to separate the two guys and impact.

• 1:27:01Bill Simmons?

  If I had to do it over again, I think I would have Rose one. I think I would have LeBron two, Wade three and Dwight four. And I think that's how I would go because those guys won 55 games. There was three guys. It was those two and Bosch, Mike Miller, who wasn't exactly awesome that year. They had Carlos Arroyo, Mike Bibby, like they were grabbing dudes from the street. They were three on five and they still went 55 and 27. Every game they played was the biggest game of the season for the other team. So I don't know. When I look back at that, they, they were two of the best three guys in the league other than, let's just want to throw Dwight in there.

• 1:27:38Speaker 01

  Could you, can you imagine if LeBron had won MVP that year and then had the same finals that he had that season?

• 1:27:47Bill Simmons?

  It would have been worse than the Dirk 07.

• 1:27:49Speaker 01

  I mean, it would, it would have been the all time. Like there would have been columns being like, we need to revoke the MVP and give it to whoever finished second is what would have happened.

• 1:28:00Bill Simmons?

  The thing is, the animosity from the decision, he wasn't winning MVP unless they won like 60 plus games.

• 1:28:06Speaker 01

  I also think it's okay. I think it's okay for voters when these super teams happen to take a year and just sort of be like, I don't, I gotta kind of see what's going on here because the word valuable in there does give you sort of leeway to be like, well, that one guy is so centrally important to his team and these all three of these guys just teamed up. It's why like, this isn't even a level up super team, but the moment Durant went to the Warriors, those guys were never winning MVP again. And I think that was fair. Like it's just like the team's too good. You have too much, like there's another, there's gonna be someone else doing more, much more with, doing the same with much less than you guys have.

• 1:28:46Bill Simmons?

  I think Wade, the Wade from 09 to 11 is the most underappreciated guy of the last 20 years, how good he was. And he's like, for instance, Kobe.

• 1:28:58Speaker 01

  Why not start at 06?

• 1:28:59Bill Simmons?

  Well, what, you start at wherever, but those three years specifically, I just think had, like, I thought his 09 year was one of the best years any two guard had, Sid Jordan. In 11, he's better than Wade. I wrote that in the MVP piece because Kobe ends up finishing fourth in the MVP. Wade was just better than him that year. He was just better, pick a stat, he was better than him defensively. Kobe was still getting those all defense teams at that point. He wasn't the guy Wade was. And Wade was just as good as LeBron. And in the playoffs was actually better than LeBron, especially in the finals. I just think they were like this. They, LeBron that year was not, I don't think better than Wade. He might've had better nights, but I just think Wade was like the engine of that team

• 1:29:42Bill Simmons?

  and he was the alpha of that, of that team and really trying to keep LeBron's head into it. It wasn't until the next year that LeBron ascended and kind of went to that next level. But I thought Wade was, I'll never forget watching Wade that year, especially in the finals. I just thought he had it. I can't remember if it was game three or game four, but he had one game that was just. He was so fucking good in this game.

• 1:30:06Speaker 01

  In the Dallas finals?

• 1:30:07Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, it was either three or four. He was just so good. I still remember being in the stands like, holy shit. You know, and I just felt like Kobe, Kobe stole some of his sunshine, I think. Cause they were going against each other and everybody at that point Kobe had become, you know, he was rising, rising up the ladder. And I just think Wade was right there with him for years. And we don't think of it that way now.

• 1:30:32Speaker 01

  No, we don't. And it would be interesting to do the all time shooting guard rankings. Uh, one, one deep dive, um, because Wade would be very, very high and was an elite, elite two way player. Who just like his athleticism betrayed him fast because of all the damage that had been done to his knees. But I mean, you go back and you watch peak Dwyane Wade and it just, he just jumps off the screen. There is nobody who can stay in front of him. I mean, he's, he's just a remarkable, remarkable athlete. He could pass, the defense was there. It's just an unusual player, a guy that height who could block shots like that and protect the rim and, and play vertically was, was very unusual. And very tough, tough and like fearless from day one.

• 1:31:11Bill Simmons?

  So I was, that was the other thing I was gonna say, mean spirited, and I mean it as a compliment. Like really had an edge to him. Kobe did too. Um, but really carried himself with, with almost a level of like anger when he played in a good way. But so that year he was 26 a game. Six rebounds, five assists. Kobe was 25, five and five. He shot 50%. Played 20, 123 minutes. Some of the minute stuff this year was nuts. Rose played over 3,000 minutes. So did LeBron.

• 1:31:41Speaker 01

  I'm glad you brought that up because I was gonna bring this up. The, the top four finishers played 82, 78, 79 and 81 games. Like that'll, is that ever gonna happen again?

• 1:31:51Bill Simmons?

  Right. And that's, that's the best thing with the Rose case is he just played, he played 80, like 81 games, 37 minutes a game. He was their entire offense. He was in fifth gear every game. You never saw a game when he had night off. And, uh, so the more I stared at it and thought about it and read what I wrote, read, read some other stuff that was out there. I still think Rose is the right call and the fact that it was that one sided, I think. Maybe it shouldn't have been as one sided as it was, but I think that is meaningful.

• 1:32:20Speaker 01

  It shouldn't have been as one sided as it was. I think it absolutely holds up as an okay to correct decision to make. I wouldn't, it wouldn't have been my vote, but I think it completely holds up as an MVP case. And if, I think the, all of the, if there was ever a, we got this wrong, like MVP discussion about it, I think it would all focus on LeBron. I don't think any of it would focus on Dwight or Dwyane Wade or Kobe. I think it would be, it all coalesces around, did the voters punish LeBron for the decision and when it was still obvious that he was by far the best player? Cause the advanced stats will tell you LeBron was the best player. The advanced stats, not every stat, but the advanced stats will tell you that. And I think it would coalesce around him.

• 1:33:04Speaker 01

  And I, I think it's fine that he didn't win MVP that year. I think that's totally fair.

• 1:33:09Bill Simmons?

  I think him and Wade were 1A, 1B, and I'm not even sure who 1A was. Wade was plus 10.4 that year and LeBron was plus 10.1. They were just so intertwined. I don't know how you can even say one guy was more valuable than the other. And it really was amazing to watch those guys those first three years and kind of culminated in the streak, right? The streak, which was one of the great achievements. And that was really Wade's last great run, I think. Cause even when they got to 2013 playoffs, he was starting to break down. There's one guy, I was trying to think, did anybody have an advanced case that we didn't really fully understand in 2011, but now we understand better in 26, if we were doing it with our lens? And it's clearly Dirk Nowitzki,

• 1:33:52Bill Simmons?

  clearly. And I, I wrote some of this in the MVP thing, even though I had him like eighth, where they were basically like 55 and 12 when he played. And then something like that, 55 and 14. And when he didn't play, they were helpless. He was the only guy on the team that could create a shot other than Terry. They had that Roddy Bouba, they were trying to turn him into a thing for a lot of the year.

• 1:34:17Speaker 01

  No, he was untouchable.

• 1:34:17Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, untouchable. Couldn't, couldn't trade him. And then it all coalesced in the playoffs and they found a defensive identity. He went up a level, but his advanced stuff was, oh, they're 55 and 18 with him when he played, but he was plus 10.3. He was 23, 7 and 3. So it was a typical Dirk year, 52, 39, 89. And, and they won like 57 games. So.

• 1:34:42Bill Simmons?

  That was, there was probably a little better case for him. They had the fourth best record in the league. And that would be the guy, maybe if you had to do it over again, maybe he stinks in the fourth or fifth.

• 1:34:54Speaker 01

  That's probably, that's a good call. And I remember writing at Sports Illustrated that year that the Mavs were a contender hiding in plain sight because, because of their, he missed like 10 games. I think they went like one and nine without Dirk or some crazy number like that. And that totally deflated their place in the standings. I remember that year, you know, they played Portland in the first round and I believe that series is 2-2 and there's the Brandon Roy game and Portland wins games three and four at home. And everyone's like, here go the Mavericks again. And then it just skyrocketed from there.

• 1:35:24Bill Simmons?

  It's, it's a great fork in the road where it really seemed like not only were they going to lose to Portland, but then they were going to have to blow everything up. And maybe that was going to be it for Dirk and all kinds of outcomes. And then all of a sudden it flipped the other.

• 1:35:38Speaker 01

  Did I just say one Derrick Rose thing?

• 1:35:40Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:35:41Speaker 01

  It might be the, I don't want to say rank injuries, but that injury, like Heat Bulls should have been an all time great half decade rivalry. It just, it just had everything. Contrasting styles, contrasting cities, Noah calling them Hollywood as hell, just defense first, a team that was perceived as a highlight like Lob Dunk. It was just everything. And then the Pacers came in and like filled the void, but it was clearly like someone's got to fill the void and they were not as good as the, but that, that should have been just four straight years of conference finals and just slugfest the whole way through.

• 1:36:18Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, there were two great LeBron rivals that got crippled because I think KG's 2009 injury was the other one. Right? The two biggest injuries in either conference during this whole stretch were the KG 09 and the Rose and 12, where you had teams that probably had a chance to win one, maybe even two more titles between them. And you look at the teams, Indiana was the best team they played probably.

• 1:36:44Speaker 01

  In the East?

• 1:36:45Bill Simmons?

  In that 2011 of 14 stretch that Miami played in the playoffs, it was probably the Pacers.

• 1:36:51Speaker 01

  Indiana took them to seven and then six two times, I think.

• 1:36:56Bill Simmons?

  I don't know. That Knicks team I thought had potential, but they kind of fell apart. Then you go to the 2015 when he went back to Cleveland. I mean, they, they played more, they played a 40, 41, 41, 41 Milwaukee team in 15. That early Yanis with some Chris Middleton. I forget who else was on there. They played Atlanta. They played somebody else, but that I, I just think the league is so much better than it was 11 years ago. I couldn't believe some of the teams that these playoffs teams back then.

• 1:37:24Speaker 01

  Those four years. They were, they were so visibly bored with not only the regular season, but the playoffs too in the East. I remember there was a, I remember which Raptors year it was because God knows they humiliated Toronto enough times. But it was the one where Toronto had them 2-2 in, in, uh, I think it was the second round. And LeBron had this all time quote after they won game five, like, yeah. I, I think it was something, I've been in adverse situations before, and this wasn't one of them. And it was like, wow, you're just like 2-2 in the playoffs and you're just like, yeah, but I don't care. Like just wake us up when we have to actually win.

• 1:38:01Bill Simmons?

  Crazy. All right. That was a good deep dive.

• 1:38:04Speaker 01

  Lebranto.

• 1:38:05Bill Simmons?

  So you're keeping, you're keeping Howard as your vote?

• 1:38:07Speaker 01

  Okay. Sticking with Dwight. The, the career from there careened sideways a few times.

• 1:38:13Bill Simmons?

  Got weird.

• 1:38:14Speaker 01

  Hit a snowbank, fell into a lake. Like there's a, there's a lot of bad stuff that happened.

• 1:38:19Bill Simmons?

  I, uh, as I was researching this stuff, you know, as, as I have amnesia with half the stuff I wrote. You and I did a back and forth piece about the 2013 Lakers as it was going sideways.

• 1:38:32Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 1:38:32Bill Simmons?

  We exchanged emails. It's like 5,000 words. Yeah. It was like January or February 2013. And it was when Dwight's season was starting to go sideways for the Lakers and Nash was looking old and Kobe was doing the thing where he's like, I'm just gonna, I think it all culminated in Kobe just playing 48 minutes a game and then getting hurt. But that team went off the rails in like the craziest way. We're writing about that in real time and one of the guys we're writing about is Dwight like, oh yeah, this probably. Probably isn't happening.

• 1:39:07Speaker 01

  By the way, Dwight Howard, just for the record, I wanted to say this because I spent time looking this up. Dwight Howard, one Defensive Player of the Year that year, I think it was a third one in a row by a lot. He received 114 first place votes. The following players were the other players who received first place votes, and this was before the voting was public.

• 1:39:27Speaker 01

  Kevin Garnett won first place vote. Can't argue with Kevin Garnett. You're in. Grant Hill, 38-year-old Grant Hill of the Phoenix Suns, got a first place Defensive Player of the Year vote that year.

• 1:39:39Speaker 01

  Joakim Noah got one, okay. Keith Bogans snagged a first place vote that, according to SB Nation, Dr. Jack Ramsey on a broadcast claimed that it was him. The voter for Keith Bogans.

• 1:39:52Bill Simmons?

  And that's when he lost his vote.

• 1:39:53Speaker 01

  And the only other player who received multiple first place votes with two. Chuck Hayes of the Houston Rockets.

• 1:39:59Bill Simmons?

  Chuck Hayes.

• 1:40:00Speaker 01

  Two first place votes.

• 1:40:02Bill Simmons?

  Low post shutdown guy.

• 1:40:04Speaker 01

  We all love Chuck Hayes, but let's, whoever those two people are, take, take it easy with Chuck Hayes, love.

• 1:40:11Bill Simmons?

  Last thing before we go, we didn't get to our Utah thing, maybe we'll do it next week.

• 1:40:16Bill Simmons?

  I read this book. I'm gonna do a quick book review. I read this book called Masters of the Game.

• 1:40:21Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 1:40:22Bill Simmons?

  By Sam Smith and Phil Jackson.

• 1:40:24Speaker 01

  Oh, I have it. I haven't read it yet, so now I will be interested in your review.

• 1:40:29Bill Simmons?

  They go through 75 players and it's basically a back and forth. Almost like how we did that Dwight Howard thing. It's a back and forth of their conversation with each player, but each one kind of can basically zag into this different conversation. It's one of the strangest books I've ever read. I don't understand if they had a proofreader or an editor or anything. There's certain guys where they don't even talk about the guy. It's like number, you know, whatever, Anthony Davis. And then it's just the whole section, some story about Phil Jackson when he coached for Albany. There's factual stuff that's wrong, like they say at one point Lonnie Shelton got in a fight with Bill Bridges when it was actually Buck Williams and just,

• 1:41:12Bill Simmons?

  it's just a, I kind of couldn't believe how lazy it was and why they didn't try to make it better. And at the same time, I, I got like 20 things out of it, reading it, and there were some really interesting tidbits and it was worth kind of zooming through. The biggest thing that I learned. And I had no idea, as you remember, I used to love Pat Riley's Disease of B. And I made a big thing about it in my basketball book and I would always bring it up and all this stuff. Apparently,

• 1:41:42Bill Simmons?

  it was actually Lenny Wilkins's thing that he called championship hang, championship fallout. That he called during the year after the Seattle Sonics won. And he talked about all these factors that happen in your team and he named it championship fallout.

• 1:41:58Bill Simmons?

  I don't want to say Pat Riley stole it, but Pat Riley definitely renamed it into the disease of B in his book. And then I thought it was a Pat Riley thing, but it turns out it was a Lenny Wilkins thing. And that kind of blew my brain.

• 1:42:12Speaker 01

  Half a life is marketing, right? Like, yeah, you know, did Winklevii invent Facebook or did Mark Zuckerberg invent Facebook? Who knows? But.

• 1:42:19Bill Simmons?

  Championship Fallout, it's called.

• 1:42:20Speaker 01

  So you're, that review, that review you just gave, there were some plot twists within the review. I mean, I thought it was going to be a, a full on pan and then it veered into like.

• 1:42:31Bill Simmons?

  There was guys where it's like, I don't understand how that's all you had to say about Chris Paul. Like you couldn't have just done two paragraphs back and forth about Chris Paul and said he went this way. But at the same time, I was really enjoying some of the stories. So I don't know, the book. I kind of enjoyed reading it as I was frustrated by it because there was some, there was some, uh, some tidbits that reinforced things I heard, like they killed Elvin Hayes. You know, they, uh, they talked about Dave Cowens, what a maniac he was. But there were some interesting coaching stuff with Phil, like, like guys that he clearly liked. Like he loved Jason Kidd and he kind of didn't like Chris Paul. And he was like, Chris Paul was kind of like, look at me, look at me, I'm the leader, look at me. And Jason Kidd was like, actually a leader.

• 1:43:17Bill Simmons?

  So there was, there were things to glean from Phil Jackson and then Sam Smith covered the league during, you know, and I really respect Sam Smith and he had some really good insight on these different teams he covered. So you just kind of had to dig out the interesting stuff in the book. And that was the takeaway, but this was one of the things Phil Jackson said, or it was actually Sam Smith said this. They were talking about Patrick Ewing and.

• 1:43:44Bill Simmons?

  The Knicks go up 2-0 in the Bulls Knicks series in 93. And he said, they go back to Chicago and Ewing says the Knicks just had to win one, just had to win one. And he goes, you never heard that from Michael, down 2-0, he would say, we're gonna win the next four. Ewing was just more normal than Michael. And I was like, that's actually a really interesting point. There's two types of players, right? There's the guy that would go into Chicago up 2-0 and be like, we just gotta win one and get it back to New York. And then there's like the Jordan Kobe type, so I'd be like, we're fucking winning the next four, fuck these guys. And I was like, yeah, that's kinda, so it got my juices going on all these different basketball things. But I was still like incredibly frustrated reading it. So that's my review.

• 1:44:25Speaker 01

  More normal than Michael is a section of the Venn diagram that encompasses most of humanity.

• 1:44:32Bill Simmons?

  By the way, on Apple Books, this book is $2. So you could just read it, download it, zoom through it on your iPad and have a really good time.

• 1:44:39Speaker 01

  Well, let's do a book talk, so I'm about two thirds of the way through the new Larry Bird book, Heartland.

• 1:44:43Bill Simmons?

  Oh, what's the best thing you learned?

• 1:44:45Speaker 01

  I mean, it's just, it's all, so far, it's all, like, he just got to Indiana State, basically where I am. It's, it's all his, I mean, I knew a lot of his childhood growing up and his dad and his family situation and, but I did not know as much about, like, how long he was actually at IU before he left and what are some of the reasons why he left and what his roommate situation was. And just like, you really get a good picture of, of both French Lick and Terahot, like, like they talk about the bars that people would go to and, and, and some of the atmosphere around those early Indiana State games. But it was clear they had something with Bird and this international, I was not aware or had forgotten

• 1:45:25Speaker 01

  about this team of like, uh, high school, or might have been freshman year of college, All-Stars that went and played internationally and, and on this trip that became like a disaster. They got into a brawl and it was just crazy. There's a lot of good stuff in there and I like that it's, I don't do, I don't even know if we're getting to the Celtics in, in the book ever. It's all college and high school.

• 1:45:46Bill Simmons?

  Oh, interesting approach. We ran an excerpt of it on the Ringer, actually. A couple other things from that book, by the way. Phil Jackson really loved what a tough guy Karl Malone was and-

• 1:45:59Bill Simmons?

  Like, I almost wonder, I gotta really rethink my Karl Malone, cuz he, obviously, I was always glass half empty on every aspect of him, and even created the 42 Club to try to, try to make his resume worse. Cuz I really valued how bad he was in these end of the game things. He was talking about just what an absolute intimidation guy he was, and how he would intimidate, like Garnett, Rasheed Wallace, all these dudes wanted no part of him because he was just this tough guy, his elbows were always up, and nobody really fucked with him ever, and I don't think I've counted that in enough with him. So that was one thing. And then, he was talking about Shaq, just what an awful practice player Shaq was, and he was, and he basically was like, as the

• 1:46:42Bill Simmons?

  years pass, you romanticize all the good things about a player, but it was like Shaq just ruined practice for us. We would have to play four on four. Like Shaq just was actually like a negative, negative influence day to day because he just mailed in practices nonstop, and it really hurt us. So you hear stuff like that, and you're like, alright, that's something. You know, it's not just about the stats.

• 1:47:05Speaker 01

  And then he would go score 45 and be completely unheartable.

• 1:47:08Bill Simmons?

  That's why you put up with it. That's why you put up with it. But, it was interesting.

• 1:47:12Speaker 01

  Alright, I'll check it out.

• 1:47:12Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, I'm gonna start, I'm gonna try to read a basketball book a week and give a little review at the end. He really loved Jason Kidd, though. Man, it made me wonder if I had Jason Kidd too high in my pyramid, whether he should be lower.

• 1:47:24Speaker 01

  Why would that make you wonder if he should be lower?

• 1:47:27Bill Simmons?

  I mean, like, I have him in the 40s. Like, I'm wondering, like, cuz maybe I'm discounting his shot too much. He was just like-

• 1:47:34Speaker 01

  How could any coach not love Jason Kidd as a player? I mean, he's just next level basketball savant, like, and tough and plays defense, like, he's just, he's gotta be, he's a coach's player.

• 1:47:46Bill Simmons?

  Well, I wonder, I did the pyramid before the 11 finals, and maybe, maybe I should factor that in more. Cuz he was awesome in that playoff run, even though he was running on fumes.

• 1:47:56Speaker 01

  I loved-

• 1:47:57Bill Simmons?

  Just being able to get to whiskey where he needed to go, and be the leader of the team, all that stuff.

• 1:48:00Speaker 01

  I loved that version of Jason, old man Jason Kidd, cuz he learned to shoot threes, and he was like, I'm gonna, he was like, I think, I think I can make up a position where I play point guard, and I never go in the paint. I just play like old man quarterback point guard, and it's, I'm still such a good passer that it works.

• 1:48:18Bill Simmons?

  Would you rather have Jason Kidd or Chris Paul, if you could have one guy for their whole career?

• 1:48:22Speaker 01

  Jason Kidd.

• 1:48:23Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, I gotta redo the pyramid. All right, see, I'm glad I read this book, even though I was frustrated by it. It really did get my juices going in nine directions. So, thank you, Sam Smith and Phil Jackson. $2 on Apple Books right now. Zach Lowe, this was a pleasure as always. Thanks to Eduardo and Gahow as well. Zach's gonna be back on his podcast on Tuesday. I have Fargo for the rewatchables. Can't wait. Tomorrow, and then, uh, not sure, gonna do some football, I think, on Tuesday, and then, I don't know, on Thursday, so. And then, potentially, I think I'm seeing you again on Sunday. Okay. Yeah. Sounds good. Well, you're, you're traveling there, Stu, but we're gonna figure out some sort of, some sort of. Got some stuff. Zach Lowe, thanks, man. Thanks to everybody on Netflix and Spotify, and we'll see you, uh, next time around.

• 1:49:10Bill Simmons?

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• 1:49:48Bill Simmons?

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• 1:50:25Bill Simmons?

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