How Military Justice Screws People Over | Bethany McDonough | Ep. 392

In this candid conversation, Bethany McDonough shares her harrowing experience as a former military officer who faced sexual assault and the subsequent challenges within the military justice system. She discusses her journey from enlisting in the military to reporting the assault, navigating the complexities of the SHARP program, and the political pressures that influenced the investigation and prosecution of her case. Bethany emphasizes the importance of advocacy for victims and offers advice to young women considering military service, highlighting the need for systemic change within the military culture. Today's Sponsors: GhostBed⬇️ https://www.ghostbed.com/house FOR 10% off! PIA VPN ⬇️ https://piavpn.com/TeamHouse For 83% off plus 4 months free! ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- For ad free video and audio and access to live streams and Eyes On Geopolitics... JOIN OUR PATREON! https://www.patreon.com/c/TheTeamHouse To help support the show and for all bonus content including: -live shows and asking guest questions -ad free audio and video -early access to shows -Access to ALL bonus segments with our guests Subscribe to our Patreon! ⬇️ https://www.patreon.com/TheTeamHouse Support the show here:⬇️ https://www.patreon.com/TheTeamHouse ___________________________________________________ Subscribe to the new EYES ON podcast here:⬇️ https://www.youtube.com/@EyesOnGeopoliticsPod/featured __________________________________ Jack Murphy's new book "We Defy: The Lost Chapters of Special Forces History" ⬇️ https://www.amazon.com/We-Defy-Chapters-Special-History-ebook/dp/B0DCGC1N1N/ —————————————————————— Or make a one time donation at: ⬇️ https://ko-fi.com/theteamhouse Social Media: ⬇️ The Team House Instagram: https://instagram.com/the.team.house?utm_medium=copy_link The Team House Twitter: https://twitter.com/TheTeamHousePod Jack’s Instagram: https://instagram.com/jackmcmurph?utm_medium=copy_link Jack’s Twitter: https://twitter.com/jackmurphyrgr?s=21 Dave’s Twitter: https://twitter.com/dave_parke?s=21 Team House Discord: ⬇️ https://discord.gg/wHFHYM6 SubReddit: ⬇️ https://www.reddit.com/r/TheTeamHouse/ Jack Murphy's memoir "Murphy's Law" can be found here:⬇️ https://www.amazon.com/Murphys-Law-Journey-Investigative-Journalist/dp/1501191241 The Team Room Reading Room (Amazon Affiliate links):⬇️ https://jackmurphywrites.com/the-team-room-reading-room/ Intro music by https://www.youtube.com/user/RemixSample "Karl Casey @ White Bat Audio" 00:00 Start 03:09 Bethany's Military Journey 05:49 The Incident: A Date Gone Wrong 08:28 Reporting the Assault 11:33 Navigating the Military Justice System 14:45 The Role of the SHARP Program 17:27 The Preliminary Hearing 20:16 The Aftermath and Dismissal of Charges 26:24 The Open Door Meeting 29:20 Confronting the System 32:19 The Search for Other Victims 47:47 The Struggle for Justice: Filing Complaints 50:34 Investigative Challenges: The IG Complaint Process 54:49 The Court Martial Journey: Pursuing Accountability 01:05:03 Dismissed Cases: The System's Failures 01:11:04 The Role of Advocacy: Seeking Change 01:26:15 Advice for Future Service Members: A Cautionary Tale Become a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/the-team-house--5960890/support https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/the-team-house--5960890/support?utm_source=rss&utm_medium=rss&utm_campaign=rss.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

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• 4:38Jack Murphy?

  All right, so this is episode, I think, 392 of the Team House. I'm Jack Murphy, here with our guest tonight, Bethany McDonough. Bethany is a former Army officer, and just to be completely candid and upfront with the audience, has a pretty terrible story tonight, so I urge viewer discretion if you have kids running around as you're listening to this. But otherwise, we're going to get into it. You know, mostly this podcast is sort of a celebration of military service almost, but there are times where we have to have some difficult conversations about things not working the way they're supposed to, and this is going

• 5:19Jack Murphy?

  to be one of them. So Bethany, thank you so much for joining us on the podcast tonight and doing this. I know it's, it's not an easy thing to, to stand up and say the things that you need to say.

• 5:31Speaker 04

  Thank you for having me. I'm, I'm, you know, really grateful that you have this platform and that we were able to connect and, and, you know, allow me to be able to, to talk about this. And again, like, the reason that I want, was wanting to do this is, is not, is because, is because I believe this happens to other people. It is important for, you know, other people that this, that this happens to, to know that, I mean, number one, that they're not alone, and quite frankly, for people to make decisions about whether or not they're wanting to serve as a, that this can happen, yeah.

• 6:09Jack Murphy?

  Well, take us back sort of to the beginning. Tell us about how you came to military service to begin with and sort of what your journey was like joining the military.

• 6:18Speaker 04

  Sure. Yeah, so I, let's see, I enlisted while I was just out of high school. I enlisted in the National Guard. You know, I wanted to go to, I wanted to go to college and do all these things and, and I, I wound up like, you know, on campus in like the ROTC program. And, you know, they said, oh, this, you know, you could, I met all the other students there and I was like, oh, these are other, other college students that are also like serving in the military or figuring it out. And like the, when you're, when you're like at that age, that's a huge thing to like have in

• 7:00Speaker 04

  common with other people. So I, you know, I wound up commissioning in oh seven and then I, you know, I've served in the National Guard and the reserves my entire career. I was never straight active duty. And I mean, that was, you know, looking back on it, I might have done it differently, but at, at the time, like I always planned on being in the reserves and National Guard. That was what was,

• 7:29Speaker 04

  that was what I, I chose to do. And so I, you know, I was a military intelligence officer. I say was because I'm, I'm now a veteran as of about two months, three months.

• 7:44Jack Murphy?

  Graduation.

• 7:46Speaker 04

  Thank you. I, yeah, I've served in several different National Guard states. You know, I moved all over the country. I spent a significant amount of time down at Fort Wachuka.

• 8:01Speaker 04

  And let me see, I, I, you know, I went to Afghanistan in two thousand seven, or two thousand seven, two thousand nine, two thousand ten. And

• 8:12Speaker 04

  Let me see. Eventually, I wound up in the Northern Virginia area for my civilian job and then wound up um being assigned on active duty uh for about five years. Um, you know, during during which time a lot of this kind of went on. Um, so my active duty time um most recently was um uh in a like a budgeting capacity. So I have a finance background and then as a military intelligence officer at the same time, it's kind of a very niche like thing. Not a lot, not a lot of people like finance to begin with, especially in the army.

• 8:53Speaker 04

  So for me, it it was just a really good fit. And so I was serving on active duty um when, you know, some of these other events transpired.

• 9:03Jack Murphy?

  And in in the run up to being stationed at Fort Myers, um, your, you know, your career up to that point as a military intelligence officer. Um, you describe a little bit about your job for folks and kind of what what your day to day was like?

• 9:17Speaker 04

  Um, sure. So I was actually, so I was actually assigned for Bell War. Um, I um, I worked at um, uh, you know, I worked at the Military Intelligence Readiness Command on Fort Bell War. And I was a program manager. So I I managed a program called Foundry. And uh, it is a uh, um, military intelligence funds for military intelligence soldiers. And I just, I administered the program. So I would um, recommend to commanders how to utilize those funds and how to disperse them to to units and then account for them correctly. Um, and all of those things. So yeah, I did that for about five years.

• 10:00Jack Murphy?

  Okay, okay. And so your station at Fort Belvoir, Fort Fort Myers, I mean, the these are both bases in the Washington area.

• 10:08Speaker 04

  Yeah, yeah, very close to each other.

• 10:12Jack Murphy?

  So, I mean, let's uh, begin to kind of like unpack where things start to go downhill. I mean, it it starts innocuously enough, right, with, you know, just going out on a date?

• 10:23Speaker 04

  Yeah, so um, yeah, so I I was on active duty from twenty nineteen until um.

• 10:32Speaker 04

  I mean, so at the time this happened, it was um twenty twenty two. Um so um, pretty normal active duty time up until that point. And so I I um, let me see, I met someone on a dating app. And um this person was a a an O five assigned at the Pentagon. And to me, that was like an automatic like, okay, I can be, I can be safe around this person. I should be safe around this person and to boot, that person isn't going to they're not going to be someone who commits crimes, lives in their parents' basement, does drugs or, you know, alcohol excessively. They should, this should, this should be the

• 11:15Speaker 04

  the safest type of person that I should be able to be around. Um, and so that's why I I knew this person for about ten days, give or take, and why I felt comfortable going to his house, even though I didn't know him that well. Because you should be safe around someone like that. At least that was my assessment at that time. Um, let me see. I I was also like sort of fighting my own instincts. So I had sort of like a creepy vibe um when I was, you know, interacting with this person where like um if a any woman who who hears this will understand what I'm saying.

• 11:58Speaker 04

  Whereas you you get this vibe that like, okay, this person might not be as safe as as as I it it's sort of like the hair stands up on the back of your neck every so often. And but again, but then I'm like, the other part of me was like, oh, yeah, but he has all these things to lose. He's a security clearance. He's he's he's an O five on active duty at the Pentagon. I, you know, I don't need to, I don't need to be uh concerned. So I sort of brushed off those um

• 12:29Jack Murphy?

  If if if I can.

• 12:30Speaker 04

  Some of those indicators.

• 12:32Jack Murphy?

  If if I can ask Bethany, I mean, I I would be, and I and I think there are other people out there who would be interested to hear. In retrospect, like, what were those indicators? I mean, I understand that there's a certain amount of gut instinct here, but was there anything specific that was like, mm?

• 12:48Speaker 04

  Let me see, um, let me see, so there are sort of like, um, um, there were sort of just generic red flags. And I say generic because at these, they, they, they're so, um. It's so generic, like, um. There was a lot of, um, calling and, and texting and like immediate, um, clinginess, I would say. And whereas I, you know, I was like, in my mind, I was like, I barely know you, like, back off dude. Um, but there was also like some that were in my mind, I was, I brushed these off.

• 13:31Speaker 04

  But in, in retrospect, yeah, they were huge indicators, um. One was that he stored weapons in his bedroom, weapons and ammunition in his bedroom. And I know this because he showed them to me, um, not just, not just one, uh, a case with several in them. Like an, uh, let me see, uh, not an M four, what's the other? What, what's, what's like, what's the, um, the civilian weapon that's like the M four?

• 14:02Jack Murphy?

  Oh, like an AR fifteen.

• 14:03Speaker 04

  Yes, an AR fifteen, a shotgun, a handgun in his closet. And like I, you know, I, I don't own any weapons. Um, I don't utilize weapons outside of what I've needed to do in the military for training. But I know that a lot of, a lot of service members do have that as a hobby. So I brush it off. Um, I, I would say like another really strange indicator was, um, there was a.

• 14:35Speaker 04

  A, a lock on his, so there was a point at which I, I was attempting to let this person's dog out in the middle of the night. Because it was whining and, um. I realized after like not being able to do that, that there was a lock on the back door. Where you had to have a key to open the back door. Um, which was making me, and so to me, I was like, okay, well, I'm, I might be locked in the house. Um, I didn't find that out until, you know. Some other, I didn't find out that out in time enough where I would have been able to react to that red flag.

• 15:16Speaker 04

  But yeah, that was, that was, that was a, it was, that was definitely part of the creepy guy.

• 15:23Jack Murphy?

  And, and then at a certain point that night, you know, there was an actual assault.

• 15:29Speaker 04

  I reported to the police within 24 hours that I had been sexually assaulted. Um, and, um, I, uh, I, you know, before I left, this person, um, had a handgun in, in the kitchen, um, kitchen island. This isn't, I mean, I.

• 15:51Speaker 04

  Had I, again, that, this was, this was also after the fact, um, so, um.

• 15:59Speaker 04

  I, I, this led me to all, all of these things. I, I reported within 24 hours to a police station that I've been sexually assaulted. And I, I named this person and, um, uh, I, I got, you know, several restraining orders like right away. And I did within the week, I, I, um, you know, I did a full interview with, um, the Molasses, uh, Manassas Police Department. Um, about what all of the events that had occurred. And I'm, I'm trying to, uh, avoid talking about some of the specifics because they're, they're kind of painful. Um, and also not, not as relevant to kind of the broader picture of what we're gonna talk about.

• 16:44Jack Murphy?

  I would, I would just point out, you know, Bethany, for, um, you know, viewers, there's questions that always come up. I mean, in the documents you sent me, I mean, you told this guy no multiple times.

• 16:56Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 16:57Jack Murphy?

  Pretty, pretty clear cut.

• 16:59Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 17:02Speaker 04

  Correct. Um, yeah, so some of the documents were, um, you know, the, the congressional inquiry that went to, um, Senator Earn, Senator Gillibrand. And to my understanding, what I'm told is they, they, you know, I asked them, please share my experiences so that when you decide whether or not you're going to take further action in, in legislation for military sexual assault, please take my experiences into consideration.

• 17:35Speaker 04

  Um, yeah, so.

• 17:38Jack Murphy?

  So you reported it to the, uh, local police, which, um, I'm sure you, you didn't, this wasn't even on your mind at all at the time, but my experience in investigating some of these stories is, uh, a very interesting game ends up getting played between the installation and the civilian police department. As far as like who has jurisdiction, who has the case first, this guy has it. Now this guy has it. It gets bounced back and forth. Um, what, what was sort of the next step for you, um, a- after making that police report? Um, and then, um, you know, you, you, you informed the military like shortly thereafter.

• 18:21Speaker 04

  Uh, yeah. So I recall like while I was in the police station, I heard, I heard, so in the back of my mind, I, I didn't know if this person was still on active duty anymore. This person told me, oh, I'm retired, but.

• 18:33Jack Murphy?

  Gotcha.

• 18:34Speaker 04

  What, you know, what does that mean? Like this, that doesn't, just because you say you retired, doesn't mean you're not on active duty, right? Like, so I, in my mind, I, I reported somebody that I barely knew. And I, um, so I didn't know. So, um, while I was sitting in the police station. Uh, they, I heard one of the officers say something like, so, so when I first went there, they were like, they were doing this, you know, flurrying around, like, I didn't know what they were doing. I was sitting there for like, two hours waiting for them to say something or do something. And they just said, okay, wait here and, and went off to do something.

• 19:15Speaker 04

  And like what I, what I learned kind of later on was that they were probably checking this person's background. And also learning that he had a whole criminal, criminal record. That's probably what they were realizing.

• 19:30Jack Murphy?

  Right.

• 19:30Speaker 04

  So they told me later.

• 19:32Jack Murphy?

  Time, but.

• 19:33Speaker 04

  They told me later that they were, they were deciding whether or not that I, that they could tell me to go home safely. That's what they told me later. Um, but at the time I was just like sitting there and then I heard somebody say, oh, she can go home now. We called CID. And so I, so in my mind, I was like, oh, they already told the military. Holy crap. And I was like, oh, damn it. Cause I, in my mind, I was like, well, the right thing to do is to report it. But, you know, maybe he's not on active duty and I don't want my boss to know. You know, I don't want, I, I don't want my, I, the command where I was at was a one-star general.

• 20:16Speaker 04

  Like that was gonna be the person that was, you know, the, who has to know about the assault. That was gonna be the person that was gonna have to like, hear about it. And so knowing that, I was like, oh my God, like, no, I, I, so I just sort of pulled the Band-Aid off and did it, reporting. And then, um, you know, within the week, I was like,

• 20:40Speaker 04

  you know, the SARC got notified and like I, so I, I did like a, a SANE exam. And like, again, me, I was kind of like, just kind of on autopilot the whole time, like within the first 24 hours. Um, the, um,

• 20:55Speaker 04

  Well, to get a SANE exam, I just called the SHARC Fort Bower number. And somebody picked up the phone. That was the criteria of how I got to get a SANE exam. And then, once I was at, once I was getting the SANE exam, the nurse was like, um, well, do you want me to call the police? And I, in my mind, I was like, what, what? You know, I didn't, I, I was like, I didn't, I was making decisions on autopilot, like survival mode, kind of.

• 21:31Jack Murphy?

  The, the SARC is, if I recall right, sort of like a special representative, like a victims advocate on installations?

• 21:38Speaker 04

  Uh, yeah, so the SARC is a sexual assault response coordinator. They're like, they're the SHARC program, they're the administrators of the SHARC program. So, um, are you, do you recall the SHARC program?

• 21:51Jack Murphy?

  Uh, I remember.

• 21:52Speaker 04

  Harassment, assault, response, and prevention. It's.

• 21:57Jack Murphy?

  I, I, I remember, I remember the briefings.

• 22:01Speaker 04

  Exactly. So it's kind of like this fluffy, nice to have program. And I, like, my experience working with these people, I've worked with a lot of them over time, is that they're very caring people. It's just their program doesn't have any teeth to it.

• 22:15Jack Murphy?

  Right. They don't have the authority to do anything.

• 22:18Speaker 04

  That is correct. So commanders very frequently like disregard a lot of things associated with the SHARC program and nothing happens. Um, so, but the people are really nice. So I was interacting initially with a SARC, a sexual assault response coordinator from my organization. And she was like, well, what kind of a report do you want to do? So service members probably recognize that you can do a restricted report, which basically means.

• 22:50Speaker 04

  Well, the report exists in a database somewhere and you can get like, I don't know, access to counseling or something like that. Um, and an unrestricted means that it's gonna be full on investigated. So the Stark was like, well, okay, now you told me and now you have to, now you you've you've told the military. So it like, I didn't realize it at the time, but she was kinda telling me, well, you already reported. So now you we're doing one or the other, you have to pick. And I hadn't even thought about that. So I said, we'll find out if the guy's on active duty. Then if he's if he's still on active duty, I'll do an unrestricted report. So within the week, she finds out he's, you know, still on active duty.

• 23:35Speaker 04

  And I'm sitting down with a one star general telling him that I got assaulted.

• 23:41Speaker 04

  Really bizarre. Um, that commander was great. Um, Brigadier General Zizinski, I don't know where he is and what he's doing in life, but he's fantastic. Um, he was probably the the the best, him and then like the H H D commander at the time, they were great. Um, but again, like the reserves, like, um, the reserves and the National Guard, one really big difference is they don't have sexual assaults getting reported. There's a really limited amount that the reserves actually has to do with it. Basically, the the majority of what they do is administer the SHAR program because they don't have court marshals.

• 24:26Speaker 04

  So there's there's not really gonna be like the charging and all of that stuff. So it's easier for them to, it's easier for the National Guard reserves to be supportive. I don't know.

• 24:38Jack Murphy?

  Mm hmm, mm hmm.

• 24:39Speaker 04

  Um, so my experience with that Brigadier, you know, that commander, the merc commander was fantastic. Like, they were great at that time.

• 24:49Jack Murphy?

  And they they did take some like positive action too, as far as like getting you in order of protection and things like that.

• 24:56Speaker 04

  Yeah, so, uh, they assisted with getting a a military protective order right away. And then, um, then I I also, I went, you know, I went to the

• 25:11Speaker 04

  Uh, the local town, like my town, and I got a protective order from uh, like the city of Alexandria. A couple, actually, and then I kind of reached my limit of being able to do that. So if if I if I had wanted like a long term one, it it involves, it involves basically a mini trial of proving that you have reason to need to have it. Um, so I had one that was enforceable for, I I think, a few months, six weeks, something like that. Um, for the town, and then the military protective order went until until the charges got dropped. Um.

• 25:55Speaker 04

  Yeah. So, let's see. During this time that I was reporting, like, nothing was happening. Um, it it's so I you know, those things happened, like I got the protective orders and that's stuff right away, um, but, um, I was still just like I was waiting around, I was waiting for the Virginia, um, the the Manassas Police Department to say what they were gonna do. I was waiting. You know, supposedly, it's a joint investigation. That does not mean anything. That means that, that means that the military is sitting on their heels, waiting for the civilians to decide what they were gonna do. So

• 26:39Speaker 04

  I had found out at that point that I had reported this person ninety days prior before he was about to retire. So, the, uh, the military also, they assign you a lawyer. That's one really good thing that has come out in like, I think, twenty nineteen and on is there's a special victims counsel. It's basically a lawyer for for the victim. Um, that is something, that's a positive change of the SHARP program. So, you know, interacting with this lawyer who's, you know, all the way at Fort Bragg, he, um, uh, he was also really great, and I think he's still out there. He's he's still in S V C somewhere. Um. He, um.

• 27:19Speaker 04

  He kept following back up with the Military District of Washington, saying, what are you gonna do with this case? What's going on with this case? And I eventually, like, cause it was getting to the point where, are you just gonna let him walk out the door and retire? Like, and I was also, like, worried because what the, what this person that I'd reported, this officer that I reported, this O five, what he um had told me was that he had a job lined up as a civilian contractor on Fort Belvoir at the um, uh, what's the, what, what's that schoolhouse called? Um, Force, Force Management, the School of Force Management

• 28:02Speaker 04

  on Fort Belvoir. He, he had a job lined up there and that was a mile away from where I worked. So, like, if, you know, you know, like, the thing, you know, I've kinda told you some of, like, the creepy vibe factors and I was just like, oh my gosh, like, he's gonna work right down the road for me. Like, if they let him go and they do nothing, I have a problem. I have an immediate problem. Because, um, so I, you know, I, I kept asking and asking, like, what are you gonna do? What, what are the circumstances under which you are going to delay this person's retirement pending the outcome of the investigation? And what they were doing instead of, instead of that was, like, dragging me into uh, the Military District of Washington, like Fort McNair.

• 28:46Speaker 04

  That's where their um, their legal office is and they were basically having me go in for interviews with them um, under really strange circumstances, like, um, basically to accommodate the fact that this person was about to retire. So, um, like, I think I, I drove there while my hand was, was um, not broken, but I had surgery on it. Um, I, I

• 29:16Speaker 04

  The lawyer wasn't able to be there because he's assigned at Fort Bragg. Like all this stuff where like, why don't you just delay? I kept asking like, why aren't you, how are you, how and when are you going to just delay the person's retirement? Pending the outcome of the investigation? And they kept saying that they needed me to come in and basically do these additional interviews to quote unquote state whether they had prob, because they, they had to decide whether they had probable cause, which led me to ultimately get a civilian lawyer. Because I was just like, why can't they, why can't they answer basic questions? And like, I mean,

• 29:54Jack Murphy?

  Yeah, who are they advocating for?

• 29:56Speaker 04

  You've served in the military. You, like, you know, if you're not getting an answer, it's because they don't like the one that they would give you.

• 30:03Jack Murphy?

  Right. And, and the military has a tendency to, um, if they do an investigation and they find a result that they don't like, they'll reinvestigate it and reinvestigate it again.

• 30:13Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 30:13Jack Murphy?

  Until they get the answer that they're looking for. Um, this is a technique they'll use, you know, if you interview a soldier in an AAR and he says, I saw this, this and that.

• 30:23Speaker 04

  Wow.

• 30:23Jack Murphy?

  The command doesn't like that. They will go back to him a second time, a third time. And it's like, are you getting the message? Are you getting the message here, buddy? This isn't what you're supposed to be telling us. Um, the same thing with the,

• 30:35Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 30:36Jack Murphy?

  The, the inspector general, I'm, I'm sorry about this little rant I'm on, but, um, the inspector general plays the same games in the military. That they will wait two years, they have, they have two years to do the investigation. They will wait one week before that expiration date and then contact the witnesses. After two years, you guys know how the military works. Half of those people or more are out of the military. They've been moved to other bases. There's no way they're going to respond. Um, that's, it's just another tactic that they use to not have to address things that they really should be.

• 31:10Speaker 04

  Oh.

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• 33:05Speaker 04

  Yeah, absolutely. So I was like, I kept, I kept asking point blank, like, what, what are you going to do with this? Like, and they kept not giving me answers, but they were also saying stuff like, I think, so this person was the military justice advisor, one of the lawyers, you know, was in the room. And I recall hearing him say that we don't want to mess up somebody's life unnecessarily, which was their justification and reason for asking me all these questions. And these questions were like, um, oh, what did you have, what did you have to drink at dinner? Oh, you had wine. What type of wine did you

• 33:44Speaker 04

  have? Or like, did you ever willingly touch specific parts of his body? It was, it was just really gross where I had already given a two and a half hour interview in a police station. They already had it.

• 34:00Jack Murphy?

  I mean, yeah, what's, what's the point? Like, was it red wine or white? How the hell does that make any fucking difference?

• 34:07Speaker 04

  I, I mean, I, I think they were just trying to decide if they believed me. At least that's the vibe that I got. So I wound up like, I got a civilian lawyer. And I would recommend anyone, anyone that goes through this, I would recommend immediately getting a civilian lawyer. Um, like, 100% of the time, I would not recommend relying on a military SBC. They are great, but a military lawyer can do things, they can do things that, or excuse me, the civilian lawyer can do things that a military lawyer cannot, for instance, challenge a case outcome, because the person that decided the case is Colonel David Boling, for instance.

• 34:51Speaker 04

  Um, let me see, so.

• 34:54Jack Murphy?

  So, yeah, tell us about that, that preliminary hearing that, that happened next.

• 34:59Speaker 04

  Sure. Um, so eventually, the, yeah, eventually, he, um, the military paused this person's retirement and then, um, then, you know, did a whole bunch of delay, delay, delay. Um, and, uh, some people switched out and, you know, more delaying. And by this time, I had the, the military lawyer, or excuse me, the civilian lawyer. And there was a preliminary hearing that took place, um, you know, probably eight months, something like that, after I report, after I had reported. And, um, the, the, so I wasn't present, the civilian lawyer

• 35:41Speaker 04

  was present on my behalf. And, you know, what they, what I heard as being the outcome was the office, the preliminary hearing officer was inexperienced. He admitted this during, during the hearing. He, he asked, um, he, he did something very, um, non-standard, which is he basically asked the prosecutor and then the defense attorney to outline, like, okay, well, what, um, How do you think that there is or is not probable cause? So the defense attorney stated. He did this long, like, um, two or three page document saying why there is no probable cause, which was basically. A whole bunch of rape myths.

• 36:25Speaker 04

  Stringing, stringing rape myth after rape myth together to basically like.

• 36:32Jack Murphy?

  Wha- what did they try to say? Wha- what were these myths?

• 36:36Speaker 04

  Um, let me see. Let's see here.

• 36:41Speaker 04

  Uh, here's one example. Um, there was like a, a ring booty video, like the doorbell ring thing.

• 36:49Jack Murphy?

  Okay.

• 36:50Speaker 04

  And that it said, um, oh, well, she was smiling when she walked away from the door. And then the prosecutor said, well, yeah, because she was smiling because he was watching her walk away. Five minutes after he took out a gun in the kitchen island. So like, stuff like that, they were like, just, they were, you know, um. Twisting what happened and then to like just any, anything, anything that they could. Um, there was like some, some texts that they tried to say that I was. I was mad at the guy because he didn't wanna go out with me again or something. Um, like, and this, it, it was just, it was just really like.

• 37:36Speaker 04

  It was really bizarre. It was like any way that they could just kinda twist the situation, they were doing that to make it look like I was. Lying or probably lying or could be lying or, uh, you know, um. And then the comparatively, the prosecutor was like, oh, she reported this, this happened, this happened, this happened. This is what the law says, therefore there's probable cause. Um, so, um, I mean, and then I started to look at the statistics. Of probable cause hearings and I could tell like the, the outcome of like, um. Uh probable cause versus no probable cause and it gets sent to court martial or not.

• 38:19Speaker 04

  Like they were not adding up in this circumstance, the whole like it it was a sham hearing. Is my takeaway, it was it was just kind of a sham hearing. So um and then we weren't allowed to see the report, so the preliminary hearing officer. Develops a report about what he about why he thinks there is or isn't probable cause well. They don't, the military doesn't. Provide those. So. He has a copy. The person I reported has a copy, his lawyer has a copy, but I don't have a copy. To this day.

• 38:54Speaker 04

  And um so like basically I was just sort of told. And then I didn't even know that it and so I kept I asked my attorneys like who decided this, who made the decision, they come back and they say it's. Colonel Bowling and um I didn't know who it was at that point that was gonna decide because. The Military District Washington has a really weird like. It's supposed to be an O six or higher, which was usually Brigade Commander. Who is the disposition authority, but not the General Court Marshal convening authority. Like the Military District Washington has a really weird setup of who gets to decide. So I didn't really understand that at the time.

• 39:35Jack Murphy?

  And this is um. I I mean, I it leaves me scratching my head sort of uh as well, how this is all set up. Because Colonel Bowling was the installation commander out there at Point Base Myers. Um, he's a former or he is a special forces officer. Um, but he, as far as I know, he has no background as being a lawyer. Um, a judge or any sort of like legal background. Why is the installation commander, why does he have purview over a probable cause hearing? Why, I mean, why does he even have this authority? How is he qualified to make a decision like that?

• 40:18Speaker 04

  Um, that's a very interesting question. Um, so like, I mean, I would say from, from my viewpoint, he doesn't. Um, and then the manual for court martial would also say that it's not appropriate that he was in the mix at all. Um, it's pretty clear about what they consider to be implied bias. And, um, like, for instance, with his, with his background, he could not be on, he could not be on a jury in a sexual assault trial. He would be dismissed because he could possibly be biased, but in this instance, he was allowed to decide the whole case.

• 41:01Speaker 04

  And that's what, so I found this, I found the Dick Pick Six article. And this is, this is the first time I came upon it at like probably within, you know, 12, 24 hours after the, after I'd been notified the charges were dismissed. And I was like, oh, hell no. And I was like, immediately I was incensed, but I didn't really, I didn't understand UCMJ very well at the time. So I, I kind of sent it to my lawyers and I was like, this jack wagon, I can't believe this. And they, they didn't look at the article until much later, when I brought it up again. And then they looked at it again and they were like, oh, hell no. This is, this isn't, you know, it's not legal. And to your question of why was he in the mix at all?

• 41:46Speaker 04

  Well, most, so I've obviously since, since this has all happened, I now know way more about the military justice system than I would ever care to hope for, uh, hope to. And, um, uh, they, um,

• 42:05Speaker 04

  The Military District of Washington has a withholding policy. Um, and I've since learned, so I'm, again, I'm the reserves, like, we don't have court marshals. This isn't something that I'd ever come across. A general court martial convening authority withholding policy such that every, um, senior enlisted and every officer, the disposition, um, of those cases is the GCMCA, not the O6. Um, so. To your point, yeah, I, I don't, I, I think it's completely inappropriate that he was in this, in the mix at all.

• 42:42Jack Murphy?

  So, the, uh, yeah, the Dick Pick Six article, um, I, I, I published that like seven or eight years ago. The Seventh Special Forces Group Sex and Blackmail Network, um, that is a totally insane story that I, I, I interviewed people and, and what's in that story is like really only the half of it. There's a lot of stuff that I didn't include, yeah, um, and, and things that, you know, I, I couldn't, anything I couldn't 100% shore up, I didn't put in there. Um, but there were, there were definitely more people involved than were mentioned in there. There was additional crimes that were committed that are not mentioned in there. Uh, it's a, it's a nasty story.

• 43:28Speaker 04

  Yeah, so, um, so I, I found that right away and I didn't realize it was like a legal issue for a, like, a little while and, but when, so, right after, right after the charges were dismissed, I was, you know, I had found the article and I was just like pissed off and, um, that, I think I, I was in, um, Germany at the time on TDY. And I think that was at the point where, where I connected with you because I was, I was trying to figure out if there was anybody that would talk about this.

• 44:00Jack Murphy?

  Yeah.

• 44:01Speaker 04

  Um, yeah.

• 44:02Jack Murphy?

  I, I, I remember that phone call, um, because I, I didn't know who you were at all, um, but I remember you, you were very upset at the time, understandably, and, um, I remember you telling me a little bit about what you had experienced, but without specifics. And I remember telling you, because I, I understand how these organizations will gaslight victims.

• 44:26Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 44:27Jack Murphy?

  I remember, I remember telling you, you're not crazy.

• 44:31Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 44:31Jack Murphy?

  End of that, um, because they will make you feel crazy.

• 44:35Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 44:37Jack Murphy?

  They will make you feel like you're the one that's crazy.

• 44:40Speaker 04

  Yeah, I definitely, that's, that's definitely how it felt. And then like everything thereafter. And like, what's crazy is like, if this was the worst part of the entire story, that would, you know, we wouldn't have another, however long this podcast is gonna be, but there's more.

• 45:00Jack Murphy?

  But wait, there's more, yeah.

• 45:01Speaker 04

  Exactly. So, so, um, I found that out. I talked to you and I, I think we were exploring the idea of writing a story about it. And I chickened out, at least at the time, I just.

• 45:15Jack Murphy?

  Yeah, I, I remember you, yeah, you kind of disappeared and I, I understood why, you know, you weren't, you weren't ready. I get it. Um, but I, I see, I didn't know the larger context. You told me that there's an assault.

• 45:27Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 45:27Jack Murphy?

  Myers, Fort Belvoir, like any of the names of the people involved, like, I didn't know any of that. So.

• 45:33Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 45:33Jack Murphy?

  For, on my end, you were sort of like an anonymous, um, victim that, that came to me in the dark. And, and I really was like, I didn't know, um, the, and there really, there really wasn't anything else I could do with, with that information at the time.

• 45:49Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 45:50Jack Murphy?

  But, um, we'll, we'll get to, you know, this, this journey that you took.

• 45:54Speaker 04

  Yeah. Um, so that, I think when we spoke, it was, um, it is, I think sometime in November of, or early December of 2022, I believe. And so what, what wound, what, uh, I, I think within 24 hours of me having learned that, um,

• 46:16Speaker 04

  The uh, the charges were dismissed. I like, I um, in in my mind, I was like, well, I can probably get away with doing whatever the heck I want for about twenty four hours. So I called up Colonel Bowling and I asked, can I have an open door with you? And um, he he hemmed and hawed and and eventually, after me badgering him and after me emailing Major General Peppin and the Secretary of the Army.

• 46:44Jack Murphy?

  Or not?

• 46:45Speaker 04

  What's that?

• 46:47Jack Murphy?

  Is it an open door policy or not?

• 46:49Speaker 04

  Exactly, so, yeah.

• 46:50Jack Murphy?

  Another little game the military plays.

• 46:52Speaker 04

  Yeah, I I mean, I emailed, um, I I think I, I don't think I emailed this. I think I, the Vice Chief of Staff, I I cannot remember exactly who, but I I emailed people I had no business emailing. Because I was like, this is your, this is your, this is the Pentagon. Like, what it, what the hell is it that you people are doing here? And um, I finally, I got my open door meeting. And um, I uh, let's see. It didn't take place because like COVID was still a big thing at that time, so it it it didn't take place until um, January of twenty twenty three, at which time, uh, my um, excuse me, the the person I reported, the

• 47:35Speaker 04

  Lieutenant Colonel I had reported, he had been retired by Colonel Bowling at that time, by that time. And so I I attended this meeting with um, myself, my civilian attorney, and you know, Colonel Bowling was there, and then two um, two members of like the the uh, JAG staff. Um, not, one of one of them was the prosecutor and and then one of them was like the the deputy um, the deputy JAG. Um, I I I'm, his name, I'm blanking on his name right now. Um, but you know, I didn't have any particular concerns with those people personally, except that they were.

• 48:23Speaker 04

  Enforcing, or they were, they were, um, allowing this to happen. So during this meeting, um, I, you know, with my attorney present, I, I basically asked questions. I, I, I asked questions of like, um, you know, there was like a, an MPO, um, protective order that, um, they basically slow rolled and then eventually denied. So I, I requested like a change to a protective order. Um, they denied it because nothing had happened, therefore it was unnecessary. And I, you know, by this point, I'd looked up all the regulations and I knew the regulations. Um, then like, I, I didn't believe that the guy was ever flagged appropriately.

• 49:06Speaker 04

  Um, I believed that because, because, because ninety days went on and they were basically like not doing anything. And he was on, um, terminal leave this entire time. So for, for them to have flagged him, they, I, I think they would have had to take him off terminal leave. So I didn't, you know, I thought that maybe he wasn't flagged and the MPO. And then, and then we got to the Dick Pick Six article, which I had a copy printed out in my hands. And I basically handed it to the prosecutor, to the, uh, to the deputy. And, and I, you know, we said like, here's, here's the last thing that we have questions about.

• 49:49Speaker 04

  You know, this, this article, according to what I can read in the manual for court martial, indicates that you shouldn't be, you should not be anywhere near any sexual assault case because of implied bias. Like it, I mean, the manual for court martial is pretty clear that he, you know, he couldn't be on a, on a jury. So a panel member, he, he couldn't be a part of that. So how can he decide the whole thing? How can he decide the whole case? And they hemmed and hawed and said, oh, no, he's not biased, blah, blah, blah. And Colonel Bowling specifically, he like got up, stopped around the room and, um, said that, no, he was not in fact biased. And, um,

• 50:35Speaker 04

  I think I I asked at one point, well, sir, like, how? How did this article come to exist? Like, how did this even? Come, you know, I was just kind of waiting just to see what he'd say, and he just, he looked at me and he said, well, I don't think I owe you an explanation. And I was just like, oh, wow, okay, that's. That's interesting. So you feel entitled.

• 50:58Jack Murphy?

  I'm sure all, I'm sure all that went over like a lead balloon.

• 51:04Speaker 04

  Um, I, so another thing that I was at, was asking. In in this meeting was. Did you look for other victims? Well, I met this person on a dating app. So I know you got the information from the app company. So did you look for other victim? That's where the other victims will be. And did you look for them? And when I asked this question. I had already, um, sometime like over the Christmas holidays, I had texted with this officer's ex-wife. Like. I, and I, I initially, like, I, I. Found her like on Facebook and I just, I. I just like, look, I'm sorry.

• 51:46Jack Murphy?

  You're doing your own investigation because no one else will.

• 51:50Speaker 04

  And I kind of said, like, well. I I was just gonna say, like, hey, I'm like, I'm sorry for what you went through, and she had no idea of anything. I was kind of expecting some kind of response of like. Oh, yeah, it's been really tough for us, blah, blah, blah. I was expecting something like that, but she had no idea. That anything, I mean, she knew that something had gone on because she'd been contacted at some point, but nobody ever interviewed her. And nobody had interviewed the first ex-wife. So there were two. And this. The one that I spoke to, she kind of spilled the beans. She, um. She told me that he had this person, this officer I reported. Had a history of abusing.

• 52:34Speaker 04

  Uh, both, you know, both, um, the, you know, her and then the previous ex-wife. And then, um, his children. So she's, I think a quote is, he abused all of us. And, um, then she told me that, um, how they had met was, um, uh, that she was assigned to him when she was a cadet for training purposes. Is that's how she met him. Um, and, um,

• 53:08Speaker 04

  so I, you know, in, I knew that the, so I knew that there were some kind of abuse allegations, but I didn't know what they were at that point. So I said, like, did you guys look for any other victims? And around the table, there was just like crickets. Nobody would answer the question. And so then, so we left and then, you know, we were told within a couple of days or I may maybe, maybe a week that the military district of Washington felt that Colonel Bowling was not biased and therefore they were not going to pursue the matter further. So my attorney wrote, um, a letter to Major General Peppin, uh, requesting that the case be re-reviewed by somebody who did not

• 53:54Speaker 04

  have, who, who did not have the potential or the appearance of bias. Um, and, um,

• 54:04Speaker 04

  so Major General Peppin's, you know, response to receiving this letter was, um, to, um, request that Ostick, the Office of Special Trial Counsel, who had basically just been stood up, to review the case independently and offer their opinion. And, um, so they did that and I, uh, this case was the first case in the United States Army that Ostick reviewed. Like number one, they hadn't even hired, they didn't have lawyers hired yet. It was, it was a civilian, it was a civilian who was standing up the case or standing up the, the office with like the,

• 54:49Speaker 04

  the first, um, So the, the commander of the special trial counsel, I think, I think his name was Wells. I can't remember, I cannot remember, but um anyways, um. So she reviewed the case and at some point I, I met her. And at that point, I basically said like, look, here's all of the. Here's all this other stuff. I don't know what this means, but this is, this is what was told to me. That, you know, there might be other abuse allegations out there. And so she, you know, she kind of takes that and runs with it and I don't know exactly like.

• 55:28Speaker 04

  While all of this is going on. I, I'm, you know, I'm kind of waiting for this investigation to take place. I filed an IG complaint because my, you know, my opinion at that point was they've already said they don't want to do anything. They've already said they're not gonna pursue the matter further, even though like.

• 55:48Speaker 04

  The manual for court martial is pretty clear. That this is really inappropriate. And, you know, then there was all the other issues that I told you about, like the flagging and the MPO and just random stuff. That um. That I felt was. Yeah, a misandling of a sexual assault case. So I filed an IG complaint against Colonel David Bowling. And that like, I, I, I filed it with the DOD IG hotline. Um, that kind of hit their.

• 56:24Speaker 04

  That hit the fan kind of quick, like that, like my, uh, yeah, them receiving that, that went around and around. It took. Six months between like MDW and Im- Imcom and. The Department of the Army, like, nobody wanted it. They didn't want to. Not want to investigate this. Like they kept trying to say that it was somebody else's jurisdiction. So six months, six months goes on where I'm just like, okay, are you gonna investigate this or what? And it wound up going to the Military District of Washington, their IG. And I knew, I found this out because I called him and I said, look, have you received this? Are you investigating it? What's the deal? And he said, oh, I've received it.

• 57:10Speaker 04

  And I said, well, why are you gonna, why is your office receiving it? Because you're gonna investigate it. But the people that you have to investigate are the same ones that have to adjudicate your findings. This is, they're the same people that are, that are potentially like part of the investig-, this is a conflict of interest.

• 57:29Jack Murphy?

  Right.

• 57:29Speaker 04

  So then, so then it got kicked back to like, somebody else. Eventually, the investigator was somebody from the, um, the G nine. So the G, the HQDA, um, G nine, they hold like sharp suicide prevention. Um, substance abuse, all of those like programs. It was somebody from that office. And to this day, I like, I don't have the results of that investigation. I have the results saying that it was unsubstantiated, but I don't have the results of it, which I will get into in a couple of minutes of why that's incredibly strange.

• 58:15Jack Murphy?

  The, the results, um, being, they, they were saying that your claims were unsubstantiated or, or that, okay.

• 58:21Speaker 04

  They said the whole thing was unsubstantiated. Cause it's perfectly.

• 58:25Jack Murphy?

  They don't state a reason why.

• 58:27Speaker 04

  And I filed FOIA, FOIA like immediately. You know, so again, still, I, I still don't have it. What ultimately wound up happening with this IG complaint, I'm just gonna point this out so I can like, kinda eh, close out that part of the story was, it wound up getting entered into evidence. Um, this IG complaint was entered into evidence. And, um, so the.

• 58:57Speaker 04

  The, the officer I reported, the defense attorney requested it and he got it. So he's got it. The defense attorney has it. The results of the, you know, IG complaint of a mishandling of sexual assault. The person I reported and have, as having assaulted me, has the results of this complaint. Two years la- you know, three years later and I don't have it. I think that's just, it's just bizarre to me. Um, but i- in any case, um. So, uh, waiting around, waiting around. You know, what, you know, what exactly is MDW gonna do? I'm thinking they're gonna do nothing. What actually, what winds up happening is, um.

• 59:40Speaker 04

  The, uh, Major General Peppin. Um, at, at about sixteen hundred, the day before his change of command. In twenty twenty-three, he sends. A response letter and I mean, you can look at the dates of his change of command and the date on the response letter. And it's literally the day before. He sends it to my civilian attorney. And, uh, saying, well, and I'm paraphrasing here. We don't really believe that Colonel Bowling has done anything improper. But out of an abundance of caution, we're going to send the case to another GCMCA. Uh, for any, and on, on all further action.

• 1:00:24Speaker 04

  When does the army do anything out of an abundance of caution? Particularly legal matters. Never. Like, so, um. So they send it to Fort Belvoir. And then it like sits and sits and waiting for like a prosecutor to show up. And finally, finally, they have the people. Like, assigned to like properly review it and. And I, you know, I met with them and I think it.

• 1:00:54Speaker 04

  I, I get the, I get the timeframes a little bit mixed up, but I met with them. I, I wanna say it was in twenty twenty-three.

• 1:01:03Speaker 04

  Okay, um, I want to say it was in the fall of twenty twenty, I think. It got reviewed and then fi- finally it got reviewed and like I met with the prosecutor at, Port Bell War and like the first thing that they say is, um, well, are you still interested in pursuing the case because we want to, we want to pursue a court martial? And I almost fell out of my chair. Um, because this guy is retired at this point. And again, how often does the military ever, ever pursue any charges against retirees? Particularly for sexual assault?

• 1:01:41Jack Murphy?

  If I can add my two cents, I think what may have been, may have been happening at that time is the military was getting some really bad press about violence against female soldiers and sex assaults. You remember Vanessa Nguyen?

• 1:01:56Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 1:01:56Jack Murphy?

  Down at Fort, you know, all these kinds of stories were coming out. And there was a lot of political pressure on the military to start taking these investigations seriously.

• 1:02:05Speaker 04

  Yeah, so, um, so they said they wanted to pursue, you know, court martial, a court martial, and I said, okay, yes, yes, by all means. And so they, you know, they, they pursued a court martial. They, you know, they charged him as a retiree. And, um, let me see, it, um,

• 1:02:30Speaker 04

  I think it wound up in the Stars and Stripes at, at some point, um, at the point of, um, I think at the point where it was officially charged and, and, and like it hit the, it hit like the, the court martial database.

• 1:02:45Jack Murphy?

  And when, when I, when I read that article in Stars and Stripes, that's when like all of this sort of clicked for me. That I put two and two together because I read in the article, there's this assault that happened. You know, Joint Base Myers, uh, you know, Colonel Dave Boling may have done something wrong in dismissing the case, et cetera, et cetera. And then I, it all came together. I was like, oh my gosh, that woman that called me those years ago.

• 1:03:10Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 1:03:11Jack Murphy?

  Googled Dave Boling and found me, um, having written that article and then, and reached out. And that's why you were reaching out to me. Um, I didn't put two and two together until that moment.

• 1:03:23Speaker 04

  Yeah. Um, so it, you know, it it hit the stars and stripes and then, you know, eventually they they did a preliminary hearing shortly thereafter. And so this preliminary hearing, I, at the time I was assigned in Germany, um, I went to Germany for about a year. Um, I assisting, um, assisting, uh, UCOM, European, US European Command. And kind of doing like similar functions as I was doing at Fort Belvoir, but you know, for for the active, active component, basically. And, um, so I, so I was listening in to this on like a Teams call.

• 1:04:06Speaker 04

  Um, with like the second Special Victims Council, so they cycled in and out, you know, and, um. At this point, I, you know, I've had, I had PTSD like pretty much right away and it. By this point, it's just, it's, it's like ongoing, you know, it's just kind of continuous at this point. So I'm listening in on this Teams call. And they were, the, the charge sheet, um. It, it listed, like there was chunks blocked off because there was another victim on the charge sheets. And, but I didn't know who it was for sure. Um, I had ideas of who it might be and, um, what, um.

• 1:04:50Speaker 04

  Well, I learned in the Teams call because they discussed the other charge, um, well, they discussed all of, you know, all of it with the preliminary hearing officer. And so they made a point to, you know, to appoint an experienced preliminary hearing officer for this one. Um, so that was a positive. He, you know, he asked questions about the other charge, specifically, um. Was, was he needing to be concerned about, um, uh, like, uh?

• 1:05:23Speaker 04

  What's the word um per like parental discipline? So I guess as a parent, you can use physical some a level of physical force to um punish your child, discipline your child, I don't know. But he was asking questions like that because the other um the other um person that was named as a victim was the hi at the time the minor son of the officer I reported. And the details that I heard on this team's call was that there was some sort of like altercation where he hit the son with a bottle of something.

• 1:06:06Speaker 04

  And then some altercation happened that resulted in like strangulation. And then the the the then minor son fled to the neighbor's house and told somebody and I I missed this part of the told somebody that he felt like he was gonna die.

• 1:06:27Speaker 04

  And so I was I was just like, oh, my god. And then the date of when this transpired was three years prior to when I ever met this person on a dating app. So I initially hearing this, I was kind of just like really kind of floored. Well, I was just like, oh, my gosh. And but I was also sort of like, I was right. I was I was I was exactly right. He's he's every bit of a violent like all of my instincts were right. Um, and but then like it kind of hit me several days later that this meant that number one, the army could have.

• 1:07:13Speaker 04

  Okay, I missed I missed one of the points. What was also discussed was that um when this altercation occurred, it went through it went through the Virginia court system. And the officer I reported pled no contest to domestic violence in a court in the state of Virginia. And in Virginia, um, it's that's the same as a conviction.

• 1:07:40Speaker 04

  So this person was walking around the Pentagon for three years before I ever met him. With a domestic violence conviction, well, the same pleading no contest is the same as a conviction. With a T S S C I. And the military did nothing with that, like.

• 1:08:00Speaker 04

  And so what started to sink in for me was, well, number one, you could have prevented it. And you didn't. And then when I reported it, even if, even if you didn't believe me, for whatever reason, you still did nothing with this other, this other. Victim that was out there and instead you just, you just slap a bow on him and retire him.

• 1:08:24Speaker 04

  Um, and so like this, the, I mean, I was kind of just disgusted at that point. That I had, and like a year and a half of my life gone because, and, and then not only that, but like Colonel Bowling, who's the one that did it. Dick Pick Six is the one that signed off on all this. It was just the most, it was disgusting to me that, that that can happen at the Pentagon. Because if that's happening to me, and I mean, I. I'm not the smartest person in the world, but I have two degrees. I had access to multiple lawyers.

• 1:09:01Speaker 04

  And I did this because this is what the army tells us that they want us to do. So if this is happening to me, you know, with Ostick being involved. What's, what else is happening out there for like young soldiers?

• 1:09:15Jack Murphy?

  Right.

• 1:09:16Speaker 04

  They don't know to do all this. They don't have like 20 years of experience where they, you know, a little light can go on in the back of their. Head and go, something's not right here. I'm getting, I'm getting a shady, shoddy deal. They, they don't have that experience to make, to recognize that when it happens. And I mean, I can tell you that like, and what you probably also. Experienced, you know, talking to other like victims of sexual violence and domestic violence is there's a lot of like, there's like a shame component. So if somebody tells you it's your fault, or they can't do anything, or blah, blah, blah. It's sort of like, you, you don't want to believe it, but then there's part of you that just sort of repeats that lie to yourself over and over again.

• 1:10:02Speaker 04

  It's like, I mean, it's like the, the shame part of it. Um, so I mean, that's a really big part of why I'm glad to be coming on your podcast today is because this, this can happen to me, like I cannot imagine what's happening for specialists, twenty, you know, twenty year olds going through this. So, let's see here.

• 1:10:26Speaker 04

  Um.

• 1:10:28Speaker 04

  Okay, so after, you know, he's charged the second time, then there's like a, a, a series of like motions, there's a, there's a trial scheduled, the trial winds up getting delayed and delayed. There, at, at a certain point, there's like a plea agreement offered and I, I reject it outright because they, they wanted to call it, um, conduct unbecoming.

• 1:10:54Speaker 04

  They wanted to take sexual assault all the way down to conduct unbecoming.

• 1:10:59Speaker 04

  And I was like, no, no. If you say that it's conduct unbecoming because he's actually assaulted me, that's fine, but otherwise, no. Um, and during one of the, one of the motions, Colonel Bowling was, was listed as a witness to testify. And I, like, the attorney, I mean, the, the defense attorney, I think, was gonna make, it was gonna make this, I think what was gonna happen is he was gonna try to make this like sideshow. Of like, it's not about that, it's about Colonel Bowling. I think he was gonna do that, and I, I think Colonel Bowling was going to testify to the effect of how awful it was

• 1:11:42Speaker 04

  for having his promotion packet delayed all this time and how awful that was for him.

• 1:11:48Jack Murphy?

  Yeah, I mean, taking it from, you know, the real victims here are actually all of these officers who are mightily inconvenienced by these allegations that you made.

• 1:11:58Speaker 04

  Yeah. So, um, and so I, I think also that had something to do of why the case ultimately got dismissed. So the case ultimately was dismissed um, a month before the trial was scheduled. So there was a trial scheduled in January of, excuse me, there was a trial scheduled for February of twenty twenty five. And it was dismissed in, um, January. And they were citing evidentiary concerns. And they also wouldn't say what exactly the evidentiary concerns were. And in my mind, I, you know, I just, I don't believe it. I don't believe that you charge a retiree

• 1:12:42Speaker 04

  for a crime that occurred, you know, two and a half years prior. And then a month before the trial dismissed the case because you're concerned about evidence. I think what, what, um, I think what happened is that they knew that this was gonna be

• 1:12:59Speaker 04

  some sort of circus.

• 1:13:02Speaker 04

  I think it was, I think it was because it was related to that. I told you, so I, I told you before, like, my IG complaint, naming Colonel Bowling, Colonel Bowling was all over it. Um, I mean, it was a hundred percent against him and nobody else. Um,

• 1:13:19Speaker 04

  that was in the evidence. And it, it, like, I, I think the defense attorney was going to make it about that so that they could get, you know, the guy off. Um, I think the other thing that, like, what was going on was, um, so I told you, there, there was quote unquote concerns about evidence. But they also weren't saying what evidence they were keeping out. So the, all the motions, they can be like motion to dismiss because of blah, motion to exclude evidence because of blah, blah, blah. Well, what, um, you might, you, you might already know this, like, I, I'm guessing you have some, you have some experience, like, working with people that in the UCMJ, like, you have some experience, it sounds like,

• 1:14:03Speaker 04

  where, um, in, they, they don't have to, they don't have to provide those motions. So I would say a comparison is the federal, the federal court system. Every time something happens in one of these cases that the president is involved in, or even like, uh, you know, that, that, um, the guy that shot the, or allegedly shot the healthcare CEO?

• 1:14:33Jack Murphy?

  Yes.

• 1:14:34Speaker 04

  And he's being, he's being prosecuted. You can look online and you can find out the last motion his attorney filed to exclude evidence. You can find that because-

• 1:14:43Jack Murphy?

  Because we don't, we don't have secret trials in this country. Like, all the evidence is supposed to be public.

• 1:14:47Speaker 04

  Yes. It, and it is public immediately. Like, that's how, like, for an attorney to file a motion, it becomes immediately public. But the military doesn't do that. And it's not because they're not supposed to do it. It's not because that there's any like, there's, I mean, these aren't classified, this is not classified information. It's not, the hearings are open to the public. And it should be public, like, the motions should be public because a judge is explaining, he's explaining the law. He's explaining how he's implementing the law. They should be public.

• 1:15:23Jack Murphy?

  A little sidebar on, on that is that, um, obviously, because, again, we don't have secret trials in this country. Court martial transcripts are supposed to be made available to the public.

• 1:15:36Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 1:15:37Jack Murphy?

  And it wasn't like an automatic thing necessarily, but you file for your report and you can get a, a court martial transcript back. Um, the last, like, maybe three years or so, the military's not even releasing court martial transcripts. They behave as if they're classified. You can go in physically to the hearing and listen into what's being said. But after the trial's complete, if you request those transcripts, they, they start citing the Privacy Act. They start citing that, um, you know, the trial, it, it just ended, but the case is still in appeals, so we can't release it. Like, they're literally making stuff up because they don't want to release that information to the public.

• 1:16:17Jack Murphy?

  And as far as I can tell, that's illegal. I, I'm pretty sure it's an, an illegal act for them to withhold that information from the public.

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• 1:18:19Speaker 04

  I mean, it is, they just, I mean, you're absolutely correct. They just cite privacy from the Privacy Act. Or, I mean, there is a law that directs, there's a law that directs the Secretary of Defense to define.

• 1:18:35Speaker 04

  Institute specific, you know, policies and procedures related to making information available to the public. There's also defense advisory committees, which our secretary of defense has dismissed all of the members of all of these advisory committees, but these advisory committees review UCMJ on an ongoing basis. Like every five years, they they look at the UCMJ and they recommend, well, we should change this, we should change that. We should, you know, we should change how this hearing is structured, what like little things. What they've recently suggested was all of all of these things that we're talking about is that Congress should, I mean, this is like, um,

• 1:19:18Speaker 04

  I I want to say just either December of twenty twenty four, January of twenty twenty five, their recommendations for the changes to UCMJ included Congress should blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And there's information in there about victims' rights. There's information in there about um making making um court filings, um, all of all of court filings pre and post trial available to the public in the same manner as as they call it the Pacer system, as in the same manner as all the other court cases in the country. Um, so it's out there, it's just being ignored, which I and

• 1:20:02Speaker 04

  okay, the the, let me see here. Okay, I guess I I need to wrap up some of the stuff I got I got.

• 1:20:11Speaker 04

  Um, okay, so it again, the it the got dismissed and I like went out of my way to ask questions. Because I can't complain about not getting something unless I unless I ask for it and I don't receive it. So I asked um the office of special trial counsel, like what's, you know, you believed in the case back then, why aren't you, will you take it now? And so then that meeting was very interesting, um.

• 1:20:47Speaker 04

  That meeting was pretty interesting. Um, prior to that meeting, I attended another trial because my attorney, the, the civilian attorney I worked with, he like was the attorney for another trial, U S versus um John Bat. So you may or may not be familiar with that case, but um that person was, that officer, he was a, a major assigned in the Military District of Washington. And Colonel Bowling was the initial disposition authority when some of those cases were um initially reported. And that case went to trial, I think in uh like June, maybe of twenty twenty five.

• 1:21:31Speaker 04

  So I, it was local, it was at Fort Meade, so I went to it. My attorney suggested it, he's like, if you wanted to learn more about all of this, you know, this is, this is what you don't get. Or this is what you didn't get, basically. So I did, out of curiosity, and um I, what struck me immediately was um well, the defense attorney was the same attorney for my case. Like, um, so same, same guy. And then it also, like, the timelines was

• 1:22:10Speaker 04

  some of the victims were, Colonel Bowling was the initial disposition authority for those victims. Um, and then I realized, there's, I mean, there's public information out there about John Bat. And he was able to, uh, he was able to um go to the, uh, what is it, the Command Selection School? I forgot what it's called, B cap. He was able to go to B cap and also make the promotion list for oh five while he was being investigated for sexual assault. So I was just, and he was also, like, his previous duty assignment was the Seventy Fifth Ranger Regiment.

• 1:22:51Speaker 04

  So I was just like, kind of really floored. I was like, oh my gosh, like number, I was absolutely right. Like all, all of these things where I was like, oh, they didn't flag him right, like blah, blah, blah. I was right about all that stuff, but was also really interesting was watching this trial where this, this guy, um, you know, what, what the other victims were saying was he was like a serial rapist and, um, and strangled people. Um, pretty gruesome stuff. There were fifteen victims in that case. But what was bizarre to see was they met the guy the same way. They met him on a dating app.

• 1:23:33Speaker 04

  And like, when I compared, so I'm not an attorney, but I feel like I'm a pretty smart person. And when I compared what I knew as evidence in my own case, and then I compared the evidence of like, each individual, you know, case, I was like, well, the evidence in my case was better. So I went, you know, when I had this meeting with Ostick, I kind of brought that up. I was like, well, the evidence in, in my case was, was better than any one of those individual like, reports of rape that you just prosecuted and you won, and the guy got sentenced to fifty years. So what the heck? And they kind of said like, well, there was only one of you. And there were fifteen of them in that case, and there was only one of you. That was the, that was like the,

• 1:24:17Speaker 04

  I'm, I'm paraphrasing, but that was the gist of the discussion. And so I, I mean, again, like, I'm grateful that I can talk about this with you because, um, on, you know, on a platform because, because Ostick hasn't solved, like there's, I mean, we, we've just listed off like, dozens of things, right? We've just talked about dozens of things that, that Ostick was never going, the, the Office of Special Trial Counsel, was never going to be able to solve lots of these things that, that we've listed out and, you know, now, military sexual assault is like, it's no longer on Congress's radar.

• 1:24:56Speaker 04

  And obviously, like, I know the world has a lot of things to deal with right now. Arguably, we, we, you know, need to figure out what we're doing as a country. Um, in order to deal with military sexual assault, right? But.

• 1:25:17Speaker 04

  I suppose I just, you know, I'm grateful to have this platform just to be able to talk about some of the stuff.

• 1:25:26Jack Murphy?

  And you then, you know, kind of, the case got dismissed the second time, you went through the appeals process, kind of the last, it seems like maybe the last thing you tried to do was to go to Congress.

• 1:25:40Speaker 04

  Yeah, I asked some really specific things, such as, you know, how, how is a rape victim supposed to be able to report her rape, his or her, you know, or sexual assault, to knowing that the person's, you know, the person they're reporting to is nicknamed Dick Pick Six, and, and/or, you know, the Secretary of Defense is a convening authority position. I'm just throwing that out there, it is. So I asked some really specific questions of like, you know, when are you, when are you going to appoint members to the advisory committees

• 1:26:22Speaker 04

  that recommend, you know, updates and changes to how sexual assault cases are prosecuted? When are you going to do these things? I was blown off. I, I think I sent you like that response.

• 1:26:40Jack Murphy?

  Yeah.

• 1:26:42Speaker 04

  I was summarily blown off. So I, you know, yeah, that's, I mean, that's where it is right now. Again, like, I, I understand that the country has lots of things to contend with right now, but the Secretary of Defense is harming more than he is helping this, this issue of sexual assault. So the congressional inquiry, it did go to Senator Ernst, Senator Gillibrand, you know,

• 1:27:23Speaker 04

  with citing your article all over the place, and supposedly they reviewed it in its, they reviewed the contents of it with the Senate Armed Services Committee Personnel Subcommittee.

• 1:27:40Speaker 04

  And Major General Peppin is still out there in some command position, I believe. Um, so I, um, I, yeah, from a personal standpoint, I'm not quite sure where I'm going after this. Um, but definitely some kind of like advocacy of some sort in the future.

• 1:27:59Jack Murphy?

  Um, so you're recently separated from the military and I know, I mean, on one hand, you have these experiences that, you know, sway you in one direction, but I, I mean, you're in a much better, um, place to have some perspective on this than I am. What do you think is the current, um, feelings of female service members today about this issue? Um, you know, sort of like, what's it like being a woman working on a military installation in 2026?

• 1:28:30Speaker 04

  Um, let me see. So I was assigned at Walter Reed for a chunk of time. And every time I, I mean, every time I was asked how I felt in a command climate survey, I would say that I was, I was very bothered by the fact that trans people are getting kicked out. That, um, black and, and female, um, general officers are being fired. Um, and I mean, I've, I, I had people tell me that, um, Secretary of Defense Hegseth's meeting at Fort Belvoir, when he brought all the generals in.

• 1:29:11Speaker 04

  I mean, I, I have a quote from a friend who said, I don't know how anybody could take that as being basically just a dog whistle for sexual assault. That was this person's, that was a friend of mine's interpretation.

• 1:29:25Speaker 04

  Um, so I, hmm, uh, let me see.

• 1:29:32Speaker 04

  Other, other service members that have experiences that I've, that I've talked to. Um,

• 1:29:40Speaker 04

  I, I, I will refer to the, that Bat case, John Bat. Um,

• 1:29:48Speaker 04

  Fourteen of the of the fifteen victims that participated in the trial. Were civilians. And this case went to trial because a group of civilians got on a Facebook page and talked about who was raping everyone.

• 1:30:06Speaker 04

  One, so they're obviously like, you know, like fifteen people. Well, he. He didn't just start doing that yesterday. He was assigned in the military district Washington for probably. Two, two and a half years, three years before he got before he got court martialed. There was one and I think uh. Uh, um, somebody that was close to the case told me that she thought that maybe the only reason that that victim was included. Was so that it didn't look like it was a bunch of civilians. And no, no female service members. So there were, what I'm saying is that there were female service members. Lots of them chose not to participate.

• 1:30:45Jack Murphy?

  I agree, yeah.

• 1:30:48Jack Murphy?

  It says something in of itself.

• 1:30:50Speaker 04

  I, yeah, I, I, I think it, yeah, I agree with you. It. Kind of says a lot when we've, we've supposedly got this great system set up and the Office of Special Trial Counsel. Is advertising, they're advertising that case as being like, well, this is evidence that um. This will not be tolerated. We don't, we don't tolerate this in, in our military. They cited this case as evidence of that. But I looked at it and I was like, okay, so you mean, you mean the case where. Ninety, ninety-eight percent of the victims were civilians. That's the case that you're citing as, as no tolerance.

• 1:31:32Jack Murphy?

  There's so many women coming forward that they couldn't deny it. They couldn't hide from it at that point.

• 1:31:37Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 1:31:39Speaker 04

  Yeah, so.

• 1:31:43Speaker 04

  In any case, I um hmm. Um, I I suppose like having gone through this, I I'm. I I I feel like like um. Uh, he. Like. The meme where you can take like the red pill or the blue pill. Well, I I took the pill and now I now I know what's behind the curtain and I can't ever, I can't ever not know.

• 1:32:09Jack Murphy?

  Yeah, you know how the lawsuit gets made.

• 1:32:12Speaker 04

  Yeah, I I think like. I I never would have imagined that all of the, all of the politics that exist in the military about. You know, even like the IG, even the way decisions are made, what who gets promoted, who doesn't. Um, who gets assigned to special command positions. I never dreamed that the same politics exist. In who gets. Court martial for sexual assault and who doesn't. They absolutely exist. I think a few other things.

• 1:32:47Jack Murphy?

  It's it's it's how well connected that officer is.

• 1:32:50Speaker 04

  Uh, a few other things that Osek. Shared with me in that meeting was um. You know, they they they. Provide extra scrutiny for anyone who's oh five and above. Automatically that that charge decision is is afforded extra scrutiny. They also shared with me that. They didn't believe that um panel members, so the jury members. Would. Convict someone. With um who is retirement eligible. And that goes into their charging decisions. So this is, these are all like the same things that we all sort of think. And they said them out loud. And.

• 1:33:29Jack Murphy?

  Yeah, yeah. Things that are immaterial to a crime.

• 1:33:33Speaker 04

  Yeah. So.

• 1:33:36Jack Murphy?

  I think unfortunately, you know, your story is emblematic in how.

• 1:33:44Jack Murphy?

  Many of these officers close ranks and protect one another. When push comes to shove. Um. It's um, it's sad.

• 1:33:54Speaker 04

  And I mean, the way that it's done, it like, I mean, what was what was also interesting watching the Bat trial was I I was watching like the same thing that happened to me where you know, I I read all this stuff about like a rape myth after rape myth, just kind of tied together. And let's just fling a bunch of stuff against the wall and call it legal, you know, call it a legal justification. Uh, or a legal position. Let's. And um, I was watching that for fif- you know, fifteen other people, one right after the other. And then I think the other thing that I noticed a lot of was um, all of the the victims' rights. So if you are a victim of a crime,

• 1:34:39Speaker 04

  you automatically get you get this little pamphlet and it says, here's your rights. Like seventy percent of the time, and this was just interesting because there were so many people, seventy percent of the time, when- whenever there was like a conflict between the perpetrator's rights versus the victim, the judge was favoring the perpetrator, the the in John Bat, the individual accused of the crime. Like seventy percent of the time, if there was like a conflict between the two, he would, he would side with the perpetrator. So I I I think what I'm what I'm getting at is that we're we're allowing this. We are setting the conditions

• 1:35:21Speaker 04

  to allow these rape myths to drive charging decisions, to drive um,

• 1:35:29Speaker 04

  if if you if no, if if people don't get charged, then everybody thinks well, eh, the problem isn't that bad. And if the problem's not that bad, well, then probably that person's just, they're just, they're exaggerating their stories. And if the evidence doesn't wind up going into the trial, well, you think, well, then there's only one person. It it's like a self-licking ice cream cone, and the legal apparatus is there to allow for it to happen.

• 1:35:56Speaker 04

  That's what I'm, that, that was my takeaway of all of this. And so again, like I, you know, I took the pill and I can't unknow any of this anymore. But I don't think that younger female service members do not understand like.

• 1:36:09Jack Murphy?

  That, that was actually, that, that was going to be one of my, my, my next questions here, Bethany is, um, what would you say to a seventeen year old in high school or a twenty-one year old in ROTC, um, a, a, a younger, um, person, uh, female, specifically a woman that's thinking about joining the military? What, what advice would you give them?

• 1:36:32Speaker 04

  Um, five years ago, I would have said, I, I would have like, supported it. Five years ago, we were kind of going in the right direction. What, okay. Uh, five years, well, five years ago was twenty twenty.

• 1:36:45Speaker 04

  The implementation of the Office of Special Trial Counsel, I would have supported it at that time. And now I would say, no, this is, this is not like,

• 1:36:58Speaker 04

  these are years of my life I can't get back. Even if, even if I hadn't like dug my heels in and said like, no, I'm not, I'm not backing down. The Army is gonna, they are gonna go through this until it's done. It's, it's not going to be me that is the person that decides that all of this is over. If I, even if I hadn't done that, well, I was still exposed to a person that should have been kicked out three years before I met him and assaulted. Even if, even if I hadn't participated in the court martial process at all, that still happened. And then when I reported it, people covered it up. So no, I would not recommend. I, my goodness, I, I think I have like,

• 1:37:41Speaker 04

  twenty, twenty-five nieces and nephews right now. I would not, I would not recommend to pursue military service and especially not now, especially not.

• 1:37:53Speaker 04

  So.

• 1:37:54Jack Murphy?

  And that's reflected in the recruitment numbers and especially a lot of those of us who are veterans are not encouraging their children to join the military. And I think it's reflective also in public approval polls of the US military are at its lowest point, I think, since like 1988.

• 1:38:16Jack Murphy?

  It's kind of unprecedented and it's unfortunate. It shouldn't be like that. And a lot of the, a lot of the things that you've been talking about on this show, Bethany, it's very frustrating for me as sort of an outside observer of some of these things because these are problems that do have, many of them have solutions. I mean, getting to justice is, yeah, getting to justice is difficult sometimes. A lot of times it is. It's, it's a tough process, but there are solutions to many of these things that you've mentioned, many of these like bureaucratic hurdles that don't work, they don't make sense.

• 1:38:52Jack Murphy?

  And we could have resolved them, man, we could have resolved a lot of this stuff in like the 1990s if we wanted to. But then you see all these like scandals coming out and women being murdered, sex assaults, and the public becomes very aware of it. And even then, as you point out, the military has still not fixed these problems and they will gaslight victims, but also gaslight the American public and tell them in these hearings, we're doing things, we're fixing this, we found no malfeasance in our ranks, no ethical concerns at all, et cetera, et cetera. I mean, just going through their teeth.

• 1:39:28Speaker 04

  Yeah, I think, I mean, the, the SHARP program, they tell you that every, I mean, you get, you get a briefing every year and it tells you that there's no tolerance for sexual assault, sexual harassment. So you believe it and I believed it for 20 years. 20 years, I believe that. And, and I like, Tailhook was, Tailhook was 30 years ago and we're still screwing around with the same, the same problems that have solutions that, in any case, yeah.

• 1:39:58Jack Murphy?

  Well, Bethany, tell us, um, you know, you're recently separated from the military. If you're want to, um, you want to tell us kind of like where you're at now? Were you planning to go in the future, um, as far as your plans?

• 1:40:11Speaker 04

  Um, let me see. So I have a civilian job that I went back to. I'm gonna refrain from mentioning my employer on this podcast, but I, you know, I work in, I, I work in a like a financial analyst capacity and, um, I, I enjoy it. It, um, I, I also, you know, I, I do want to pivot toward some kind of advocacy at some point. Um, and I, I, I think, you know, I'm, I'm very newly separated. So what I didn't realize that getting out is kind of like a, it's kind of, it's a big life change. I, you know, it's 20, you know, 22 years of my life. I've always been accountable to a commander somewhere and I'm not now.

• 1:40:56Speaker 04

  And it's a really good feeling I have to, I have to say, or just to be able to talk about some of the things, to be able to go on this podcast and talk about what I dislike about what the government did or didn't do. Just the ability to do that, um, is really refreshing. Um, so I would say, yeah, like I'm, I'm intending to pursue some kind of advocacy in this space. And I'm still trying to, I'm figuring out what that means still. Or I'm still, I'm figuring out what that looks like. Yeah.

• 1:41:31Jack Murphy?

  And as, as you're saying this, I, I can think of a couple of people I'd like to put you in touch with too. That, you know, what one, one woman in particular went through absolute, you know, hell, you know, in the military. She was the spouse of a, of a soldier, but she's involved in advocacy and, and is doing much, much better today. Um, I, I'd love to put you guys in touch.

• 1:41:52Speaker 04

  Yeah, that'd be great. Yeah, I would appreciate that.

• 1:41:56Jack Murphy?

  Um, any, uh, any other final thoughts before we get going for tonight? Again, and I really appreciate you coming on the show and speaking so candidly about, you know, what is a very difficult subject. There's no getting around that.

• 1:42:10Speaker 04

  Um, I, I think like aside from the need for further legislation, a big part of why I decided to speak about this, if and when I had the opportunity to do so, was that when I was going through it, um, I read everything that I could get my hands on. I read probably a lot, I read lots of your articles about these issues. I, I read any other experience that another service member had going through this. And I couldn't, I couldn't find a lot. I couldn't find very much that was like recent, that of somebody that had gone through this like recently. And I mean, a lot of people never speak out about it at all.

• 1:42:54Speaker 04

  So I decided really early on, like if I have the opportunity to do so, I'm doing that. Because when I was going through this and I was absorbing all this, you know, everybody else's experiences, it made-

• 1:43:05Speaker 05

  Hi, I'm Jenna Oshkowitz. You might know me from Glee. This is At the Table, the food allergy podcast, a show about food, connection, and what it really looks like to live with food allergies. Each episode, we hear stories from real people like Daniel.

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• 1:45:00Speaker 04

  Let me feel less alone. So that's the other big piece, you know, is that if you are going through this, you're not alone. It's not you. You're probably being gaslit every which way to Sunday. It's not you. This is, this is a, the Sharp program has come a long way, but, but there's still so many more things that could be, that could be improved upon and, and allowing for somebody to go through this and have a better experience. As opposed to just ensuring that justice is served for the perpetrator. So that's it. Thank you, Jack. I really appreciate you allowing me to come on here. Thank you

• 1:45:45Speaker 04

  so much.

• 1:45:46Jack Murphy?

  Thank you, Bethany.

• 1:45:47Speaker 04

  It's so wild to, to like, you know, this has been like three years of my life and a lot of it started from your article, so.

• 1:45:56Jack Murphy?

  Yeah, no, I'm, I'm sorry to hear all this and, you know, I hope that you're able to find a little bit of closure through telling your story publicly like this.

• 1:46:07Speaker 04

  Thank you. Yeah, absolutely. Yes, you have no idea.

• 1:46:11Jack Murphy?

  And yet, everyone else watching this, listening to this, thank you for joining us tonight. Hope you'll share this with other service members or potential service members in your life. It's important information. As Bethany mentions, hire a civilian attorney. That's an important step.

• 1:46:30Speaker 04

  Yeah, absolutely.

• 1:46:32Jack Murphy?

  And otherwise, we will see all of you guys on the next show. Thank you for joining us. And thank you, Bethany.

• 1:46:39Speaker 04

  Thank you, Jack. Have a good one.

• 1:46:43Jack Murphy?

  Hey, guys. I want to tell all of you today about a new newsletter that we're launching that encompasses both the Team House Podcast, the Eyes On Podcast, and the High Side News Outlet, which I run with Sean Naylor. The newsletter is going to be once a week. It's going to come into your inbox, and you're going to get the most current podcasts on Eyes On and the Team House and whatever's topical or current on the High Side. So it's another way for us to get the information out to you, as social media algorithms are pretty iffy, and you never really know what you're going to get. So this is a once a week email. It'll slide into your inbox, and it will have, you know, the greatest hits of that week. It's really good. I'm checking it out.

• 1:47:27Jack Murphy?

  The website for it is teamhospodcast.kit.com/join. Teamhospodcast.kit.com/join. Go there, and you enter into your email list, or you enter your email into the little thing on the website, and you're good to go. And that'll be it. So we really appreciate your support, and hope you'll consider signing up. Where's the link? The link will also be down in the description, if you're looking for it there. And that's teamhospodcast.kit, K-I-T, kiloindiatango.com.

• 1:48:02Speaker 05

  Hi, I'm Jenna Oshkowitz. You might know me from Glee. This is At the Table, the Food Allergy Podcast, a show about food, connection, and what it really looks like to live with food allergies. Each episode, we hear stories from real people like Daniel.

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  People would always think I was lactose intolerant, so I just kind of shortened my explanation to I'm deathly allergic in a big way that defined a lot of my childhood.

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  Hi, I'm Jenna Oshkowitz. You might know me from Glee. This is At the Table, the food allergy podcast, a show about food, connection, and what it really looks like to live with food allergies. Each episode, we hear stories from real people like Daniel.

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  ChatGPT for Teens is designed to help teens learn, think critically, and grow their skills. ChatGPT for Teens supports active learning by breaking concepts down. Rather than giving teens the answer, study mode helps teens work through problems, and interactive quizzes test their knowledge and provide immediate feedback. Safety protections are on by default, and parental controls offer families additional options, like setting study hours and quiet hours. Visit chatgpt.com/parents to learn more.

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  Hi, I'm Jenna Oshkowitz. You might know me from Glee. This is At the Table, the food allergy podcast, a show about food, connection, and what it really looks like to live with food allergies. Each episode, we hear stories from real people like Daniel.

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  People would always think I was lactose intolerant, so I just kind of shortened my explanation to I'm deathly allergic, in a big way that defined a lot of my childhood.

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  Hi, I'm Jenna Oshkowitz. You might know me from Glee. This is At the Table, the food allergy podcast, a show about food, connection, and what it really looks like to live with food allergies. Each episode, we hear stories from real people like Daniel.

• 1:56:17Speaker 06

  People would always think I was lactose intolerant, so I just kind of shortened my explanation to I'm deathly allergic, in a big way that defined a lot of my childhood.

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• 1:56:39Speaker 05

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  Hi, I'm Jenna Ushkowitz. You might know me from Glee. This is At the Table, the food allergy podcast, a show about food, connection, and what it really looks like to live with food allergies. Each episode, we hear stories from real people like Daniel.

• 1:58:16Speaker 06

  People would always think I was lactose intolerant, so I just kind of shortened my explanation to I'm deathly allergic, in a big way that defined a lot of my childhood.

• 1:58:27Speaker 05

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  One of the best guys that I dated, he made a point to memorize all my food allergies.

• 1:58:38Speaker 05

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  Hi, I'm Jenna Oshkowitz. You might know me from Glee. This is At the Table, the food allergy podcast, a show about food, connection, and what it really looks like to live with food allergies. Each episode, we hear stories from real people like Daniel.

• 2:00:14Speaker 06

  People would always think I was lactose intolerant, so I just kind of shortened my explanation to I'm deathly allergic, in a big way that defined a lot of my childhood.

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• 2:00:36Speaker 05

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• 2:01:58Speaker 05

  Hi, I'm Jenna Oshkowitz. You might know me from Glee. This is At the Table, the food allergy podcast, a show about food, connection, and what it really looks like to live with food allergies. Each episode, we hear stories from real people like Daniel.

• 2:02:12Speaker 06

  People would always think I was lactose intolerant, so I just kind of shortened my explanation to I'm deathly allergic, in a big way that defined a lot of my childhood.

• 2:02:23Speaker 05

  And while there are challenges, there are moments that remind you you're not alone.

• 2:02:28Speaker 07

  One of the best guys that I dated, he made a point to memorize all my food allergies.

• 2:02:34Speaker 05

  So join us and hear their stories and more, because living with food allergies isn't just about what you can't eat, it's about still having your seat at the table. Brought to you by Genentech and Novartis. Listen to At the Table, the food allergy podcast, on America's number one podcast network, iHeart. Follow At the Table and start listening on the free iHeart Radio app today.

• 2:02:54Speaker 08

  ChatGPT for Teens is designed to help teens learn, think critically, and grow their skills. ChatGPT for Teens supports active learning by breaking concepts down rather than giving teens the answer. Study mode helps teens work through problems, and interactive quizzes test their knowledge and provide immediate feedback. Safety protections are on by default, and parental controls offer families additional options like setting study hours and quiet hours. Visit chatgpt.com/parents to learn more.

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  Hi, I'm Jenna Oshkowitz. You might know me from Glee. This is At the Table, the food allergy podcast, a show about food, connection, and what it really looks like to live with food allergies. Each episode, we hear stories from real people like Daniel.

• 2:04:12Speaker 06

  People would always think I was lactose intolerant, so I just kind of shortened my explanation to I'm deathly allergic, in a big way that defined a lot of my childhood.

• 2:04:23Speaker 05

  And while there are challenges, there are moments that remind you you're not alone.

• 2:04:28Speaker 07

  One of the best guys that I dated, he made a point to memorize all my food allergies.

• 2:04:34Speaker 05

  So join us and hear their stories and more, because living with food allergies isn't just about what you can't eat. It's about still having your seat at the table. Brought to you by Genentech and Novartis. Listen to At the Table, the food allergy podcast, on America's number one podcast network, iHeart. Follow At the Table and start listening on the free iHeart Radio app today.

• 2:04:54Speaker 08

  ChatGPT for Teens is designed to help teens learn, think critically, and grow their skills. ChatGPT for Teens supports active learning by breaking concepts down rather than giving teens the answer. Study mode helps teens work through problems, and interactive quizzes test their knowledge and provide immediate feedback. Safety protections are on by default, and parental controls offer families additional options like setting study hours and quiet hours. Visit chatgpt.com/parents to learn more.

• 2:05:21Speaker 10

  OnDeck is built to back small businesses like yours. Whether you're buying equipment, expanding your team, or bridging cash flow gaps, OnDeck's loans up to $400,000 make it happen fast. Rated A+ by the Better Business Bureau and earning thousands of five-star TrustPilot reviews, OnDeck delivers funding you can count on. Apply in minutes at ondeck.com. Depending on certain loan attributes, your business loan may be issued by OnDeck or Celtic Bank. OnDeck does not lend in North Dakota. All loans and amounts subject to lender approval.

• 2:05:49Speaker 11

  She's been thinking about this sleepover all week, but I think about her food allergies all the time. Fortunately, her doctor prescribed Zolair, omalizumab. It's proven to significantly reduce allergic reactions if a food allergy accident happens.

• 2:06:02Speaker 12

  Zolair 150mg is a prescription medication used to treat food allergy in people one year of age and older to reduce allergic reactions due to accidental exposure to one or more foods. While taking Zolair, you should continue to avoid all foods to which you are allergic. Don't use if you are allergic to Zolair. Zolair may cause a severe, life-threatening allergic reaction called anaphylaxis. Tell your doctor if you ever had anaphylaxis. Get help right away if you have trouble breathing or if you have swelling of your throat or tongue. Zolair should not be used for the emergency treatment of allergic reactions, including anaphylaxis. Zolair is for maintenance use to reduce allergic reactions, including anaphylaxis, while avoiding food allergens. Serious side effects such as cancer, fever, muscle aches and rash, parasitic infection, or hardened circulation problems have been reported. Please see zolair.com for full prescribing information. Ask an allergist about Zolair.

• 2:06:46Speaker 12

  This is an advertisement for Zolair, paid for by Genentech and Novartis.

• 2:06:49Speaker 08

  ChatGPT for Teens is designed to help teens learn, think critically, and grow their skills. ChatGPT for Teens supports active learning by breaking concepts down. Rather than giving teens the answer, study mode helps teens work through problems, and interactive quizzes test their knowledge and provide immediate feedback. Safety protections are on by default, and parental controls offer families additional options, like setting study hours and quiet hours. Visit chatgpt.com/parents to learn more.

• 2:07:17Speaker 10

  OnDeck is built to back small businesses like yours. Whether you're buying equipment, expanding your team, or bridging cash flow gaps, OnDeck's loans up to $400,000 make it happen fast. Rated A+ by the Better Business Bureau and earning thousands of five-star TrustPilot reviews, OnDeck delivers funding you can count on. Apply in minutes at ondeck.com. Depending on certain loan attributes, your business loan may be issued by OnDeck or Celtic Bank. OnDeck does not lend in North Dakota. All loans and amounts subject to lender approval.