RE-AIR Conversations: The Conspiracy & Conspirituality of Atlantis w/ Steph Halmhofer

CW/TW: brief mention of Canadian Residential Schools and recent and ongoing discovery of graves. This episode originally aired in spring 2022. Liv speaks with archaeologist Steph Halmhofer about conspiracy and conspirituality in archaeology and pseudoarchaeology, Atlantis and its dangerous development into what it is today, and more. Follow Steph on Twitter @cult_archaeo https://twitter.com/cult_archaeo. Further Reading: Plato's Timaeus https://www.gutenberg.org/files/1572/1572-h/1572-h.htm and Critias https://www.gutenberg.org/files/1571/1571-h/1571-h.htm, quotes translated by Benjamin Jowett; A Brief History of Atlantis: Plato's Ideal State by Stephen P. Kershaw (includes alternate translation of Plato); PDF: Truth, Lies, and History in Plato's Timaeus and Critias https://histos.org/documents/1998.08JohansenTruthLiesandHistory192215.pdf by Thomas K Johansen, 1998. Attributions and licensing information for music used in the podcast can be found here: mythsbaby.com/sources-attributions https://open.acast.com/shows/61b773361695621741e950bb/episodes/61b777791695623796e950e9/mythsbaby.com/sources-attributions. Special podcast artwork by Sara Richard https://www.sararichard.com/. Learn more about Liv's next group trips https://travelbugxlivalbert.my.canva.site/ to GREECE! Application deadline is November 30 (Subject to change due to demand). Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy https://acast.com/privacy for more information.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Liv Albert?

  Hey nerds, really quick note from me. I want to tell you that we now have the applications open for the next set of listener group trips. This is us going back to the original, the trips that we have held in the past that have been so much fun, so successful, and pretty affordable in terms of wandering around Greece with a bunch of nerds. So check out the details and get your applications in at mythsbaby.com/grouptrip.

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• 2:09Liv Albert?

  Oh, hi, hello. Yes, it's me again. This is Let's Talk About Myths, baby. And I'm your host, Liv, she who has learned so, so, so much during this run of Atlantis episodes. I've honestly been so blown away by what I've learned, both in research and in speaking with these archaeologists. I'm willing to bet most of you have learned a few things along the way, too. I mean, honestly, who knew Atlantis wasn't even a myth, let alone all the other wild and often troubling things floating just below the surface. Get it? Anyway, bad jokes aside, this is the last episode of my series of conversations with archaeologists about

• 2:54Liv Albert?

  Atlantis, the real archaeology of the Mediterranean, pseudo-archaeology, and even conspiracy. There is truly, deeply so much to say about the thing that the story of Atlantis has become. I mean, honestly, what would Plato have to say about the way his philosophical allegory has shifted into? Well, what exactly it's become is best explained in this very episode.

• 3:26Liv Albert?

  I spoke with archaeologist Steph Halmhofer about Atlantis, but not really the Atlantis of Plato. Instead, Steph gives us a rundown on what Atlantis has become and how it got there. Steph is not only an archaeologist, but an archaeologist studying pseudo-archaeology and conspiracy, straight-up cult-style groups, and even the alt-right. It blew my mind just learning this was a field of study, let alone its connections with Atlantis, and even an unrelated group that Steph studies that is from my own home island. But more on that later. This episode was so incredibly fun to record and to edit and thus learn it all

• 4:09Liv Albert?

  over again. Steph and I had so much fun chatting, not least because we're both from B.C. And like I said, she studies a group that was on Vancouver Island, where I live and where I grew up. I can't wait for y'all to hear this episode. Conspiracy, conspirituality, pseudo-archaeology. We dive into it all and then some.

• 4:43Liv Albert?

  Conversations: The Conspiracy and Conspirituality of Atlantis with Steph Halmhofer.

• 5:05Liv Albert?

  In theory, we're talking about Atlantis, but also kind of everything that stems from Atlantis and the idea of those kind of dangerous conspiracy theories.

• 5:17Speaker 03

  Right. Yes. Oh, boy, Atlantis. It, I have these sort of like two sayings where I'm like, it's always Atlantis. One of them is it's always Atlantis because so many conspiracy theories tie in these elements of Atlantis, or conspiracy theory shows, or just anything with the M-word, mysterious, always draws in Atlantis. So I'm like, oh, it's always Atlantis. But then the other thing I always say is it's always Blavatsky, Helena Blavatsky. And so Helena Blavatsky is one of the reasons Atlantis is so popular today. She was an occultist

• 5:57Speaker 03

  in the 19th century, started the Theosophy Society or Theosophy Movement. And I mean, Atlantis can be traced back to her popularizing it, helping to popularize it, but also so many other conspiracy theories also draw from Blavatsky or movements, religious or spiritual movements and conspiritual movements. It is always Blavatsky. I will go digging through these ideologies and I will always find Blavatsky in there.

• 6:26Liv Albert?

  Interesting. Okay, so that just made me realize that I should probably also ask you to tell my listeners a bit about like why I'm talking to you. So what are you studying? You're doing your PhD in this right now, is that right?

• 6:38Speaker 03

  Yes, yes. I'm doing my PhD.

• 6:41Liv Albert?

  Great. And you're Canadian, I want to say, too, which is very exciting. Or are you Canadian or are you just studying in Canada?

• 6:46Speaker 03

  I am Canadian. Yes, I am Canadian.

• 6:49Liv Albert?

  I rarely get to talk to Canadians, so it's an extra thrill on my part. So silly.

• 6:54Speaker 03

  You know what's funny is like I have the same thought when it comes to like certain subjects that I'm interested in. I'm like, you know, I don't often get to talk to Canadians. But when I started diving into extremism research and getting to know the extremism experts, there are a lot from Canada, some really wonderful Canadian experts. So that was very exciting for me.

• 7:13Liv Albert?

  That is good. We do love other Canadians, right? Like, I have so many problems with this country, but I'm still like, oh, you're Canadian? Oh, that's cool. Like, they're Canadian. Great.

• 7:24Speaker 03

  It's true.

• 7:25Liv Albert?

  It's our thing. It's like just bred into you.

• 7:29Speaker 03

  Right. You remember the, you remember the Tim Hortons commercial where it's like this couple was traveling and they had their like Tim Hortons travel mug and everywhere they went, they're like, oh, hey, I'm from Calgary, I'm from Toronto. Yeah, we love to do that.

• 7:41Liv Albert?

  Yeah. I've made it my thing on the podcast, certainly when I'm having conversations with people, like anytime like an actor is mentioned, like I find it's my obligation to point out if they're Canadian. And I'll just like make a point, like even interrupt just like really quietly, they're Canadian. Like, it's necessary. It comes from my mother, who always says it comes from my grandmother. So it's longstanding. Yeah.

• 8:08Speaker 03

  That's awesome.

• 8:09Liv Albert?

  Yeah. So, yeah, so you're studying, like, please, tell me, yeah, tell me what you're studying.

• 8:16Speaker 03

  It's so weird that sometimes it's hard to like summarize, right? I saw, honestly, one of the best recent descriptions was yesterday, I saw, I'm just pulling it up right now, there was a tweet from somebody who was kind of just joking around, but they said, they were joking around about the Q and one of the big QAnon conferences. That's not a QAnon conference. Definitely not a QAnon conference. And so there was this person who had mentioned that memetic warfare. So memes are very popular within the alt-right, and there's been this sort of meme warfare, actually, going on for a time now. And this person was like,

• 8:57Speaker 03

  oh, memetic warfare has been going on for forever. And then this other person just retweeted that and said, I picture archaeologists dusting off a faded Pepe meme they just dug up on the battlefield, marveling at the number of spelling errors it contains. And I was like, oh, yeah, that's, that's my PhD.

• 9:18Speaker 03

  So basically, yeah, my PhD is in archaeology. I've been an archaeologist for a number of years before I went back to school. And I am studying what's called conspirituality. So ideologies that are built from blending new age spirituality with conspiracy theories. And so I study how archaeology and pseudo-archaeology in particular are sort of embraced within conspirituality, used to justify and support and build these beliefs in contemporary North America, but also historic North America as well. And so there's a particular conspiritual movement that I'm studying from the 1920s and 30s

• 10:01Speaker 03

  that had a settlement on Vancouver Island, Vancouver Island, Decorsy Island, and Valdez Island. They had three settlements spread across these three islands.

• 10:09Liv Albert?

  So local for me, I'm thrilled.

• 10:11Speaker 03

  Yep, I figured you would probably know. So, yeah, I study this movement called the Aquarian Foundation. They were called the Aquarian Foundation. They were led by a man who called himself Brother Twelve. He claimed, I mean, he didn't give himself the name, he said. It was the Ascended Masters that gave him the name Brother Twelve. That is the Blavatsky connection. So, yeah, he had the settlement and they were really into theosophy. He was also really into other conspiracy theories and they kind of, he blended theosophy and these conspiracy theories. And that's sort of what the Aquarian Foundation was built off of. But they draw, there are a lot of parallels between this group in the 1920s and movements like QAnon today, which are nearly 100 years apart,

• 10:56Speaker 03

  but they're still into kind of the same things, the same basic conspiracy theories are prevailing in both. And they're still very popular today as they were in the 1920s. So that is kind of what I do.

• 11:09Liv Albert?

  That's fascinating. Where on the island?

• 11:12Speaker 03

  Just south of Nanaimo.

• 11:14Liv Albert?

  Okay. You can tell I'm from here because I realize I literally just say the island and then I assume everyone knows what I'm talking about.

• 11:23Speaker 03

  But it's, yeah, it's true. If you're from DC and somebody says the island, even though there are so many islands.

• 11:28Liv Albert?

  There are so many.

• 11:29Speaker 03

  We know exactly which island you're referring to. So, yeah. Well, Cedar by the Sea is where Brother Twelve and the Aquarian Foundation built their first headquarters when they first came to Canada. He was British and he came to Canada. He had actually lived in Canada for a number of years, moved back to Britain or Europe, I should say, had this encounter with the Ascended Masters in 1924, who told him he was going to be the 12th brother of the Great White Brotherhood. And then in 19, he sort of published a bunch of stuff, gained some popularity. And then in 1927 is when he came back to Canada. He believed that humanity was transitioning into, I guess, kind of two different things. So one transition was we were moving into the age of Aquarius.

• 12:12Speaker 03

  Hence, he named his group the Aquarian Foundation. But also, he believed that, there's so much like context and backstory here. The Blavatsky thing is basically she argued for seven root races, that there were seven root races that were sort of basically just different time periods in human evolution. And each root race had seven sub-races as well.

• 12:35Liv Albert?

  Oh, my God.

• 12:36Speaker 03

  Right? So we start off with the Polarians. They're a very ethereal race of people. They just kind of were these little lobs. The Polarians evolved into the Hyperboreans. The Hyperboreans evolved into the Lemarians. Lemarians evolved into the Atlanteans. And the Atlanteans evolved into the fifth and the greatest of all the root races, the Aryans.

• 12:59Liv Albert?

  Oof.

• 13:00Speaker 03

  Right, big oof, big oof. And then the sixth and seventh sub-race or root races hadn't yet come to happen. They were kind of going to happen in the future.

• 13:10Speaker 03

  Brother Twelve believed that he was going to begin the transition of humanity into the sixth sub-race of the fifth root race, which was apparently very important. So, and all of this was going to happen in British Columbia on these islands. So he took his disciples with him. They collected more because they landed, I think they landed in Toronto first. And, right, obviously, Toronto. They landed there. He gave a bunch of talks to some of the local theosophy societies because he was really, really into theosophy, even though he had kind of separated himself from the theosophical, official theosophical society, which is also other backstory.

• 13:55Speaker 03

  But he, so he gave these talks and he collected a bunch of, a bunch more disciples and followers from the theosophical societies. I think either the Toronto chapter or the Ottawa chapter of the theosophical society had to fully shut down because everyone left to join Brother Twelve. And he did this and he moved his way across west, collecting very wealthy followers until they got to Cedar by the Sea and they bought the first of the three properties they ultimately would own where the transition into the sixth sub-race would begin.

• 14:29Liv Albert?

  That is wild. The way I did not expect that this call was going to end up with my island, like where not only I still live, but I fully grew up here. Like, it's so weird. Oh, my gosh, that's so interesting and I can't believe I didn't know that. I went through a whole period where I was really obsessed with cults and everything. And I've been recently talking to somebody about, do you know, this is like, I mean, it's still equally, I would say conspiracy, but very religious. But do you know the book Michelle Remembers about Victoria? It's like about this girl. Yeah, it's about, it's like basically started the satanic panic. The idea this woman like remembers that she was a child, like basically sacrificed to Satan in Victoria.

• 15:14Liv Albert?

  And turns out like, oh, this is Victoria's, like this extremely satanic place. Anyway, so I like researched all that when I was young and I can't believe I didn't come across this like local wildness. That's fascinating. Yeah, so I'd love to hear then how this, I mean, I want to make sure we're talking about, I mean, definitely, like, I think it's inherent how problematic stuff like this is, but I want to make sure that that is a big focus of this. But when it comes to the idea of these, you know, the Atlanteans in this.

• 15:51Liv Albert?

  So I'm fascinated because you also said Hyperboreans, which is, I'm not as familiar, but is a term from Greek mythology.

• 15:59Liv Albert?

  And then, but that, so where does the Atlanteans come in? Because in theory, they're like some of the most ancient, but they were really far down on your list. Do you know kind of how that works? Yeah.

• 16:11Speaker 03

  Well, to learn how that works, yeah, we'd have to read the Secret Doctrine in particular. So Blavatsky wrote a couple of these occult cosmologies. Isis Unveiled, she wrote in, I want to say, no, 1875 is when she started the Theosophical Society. It was the 1870s, she wrote Isis Unveiled. Then a few years later, she wrote The Secret Doctrine. And these were, she claimed this was knowledge that had been found in these secret texts. The, the Daz, Daz, Dyson? There's a D and there's a Zed in there. I'd have to remind myself. So in The Secret Doctrine in particular, she goes into a lot of detail

• 16:55Speaker 03

  about each of these sort of root races and the history behind all of them, the history of the planet.

• 17:02Speaker 03

  And it's like millions and millions and millions and millions of years of history.

• 17:08Speaker 03

  And each, each root race also evolved from a particular sub-race of the previous root race as well. Yeah, it's very, very complicated. I find her, and these two cosmologies, The Secret Doctrine in particular, became kind of the doctrines of the Theosophical Society. So she'd already started, co-founded the Theosophical Society by the time she wrote The Secret Doctrine. But they really adopted all of these cosmologies. And they're really difficult to read, to be honest. I have copies of both and I've gone through them and I, it just, it's so complex and difficult to tease out what she's sort of saying and how she talks about the actual evolution.

• 17:53Speaker 03

  So to be honest, I'm not, I'm not really sure why Atlantis ended up kind of middle of the list. It just sort of fits in with her idea of these evolutions and life cycles and whatnot, so.

• 18:09Liv Albert?

  I'm sure the complexity is part of it too, right? It's just that like, the more complex, the more confusing and ridiculous to read, like the more likely it is that people are going to believe that she's really got all this knowledge because like, oh, how could it be so detailed and complex a cosmology if it wasn't true? So, yeah, I can imagine it's just so troublingly intense.

• 18:29Speaker 03

  Exactly, right? And, and she got this knowledge from these secret texts that nobody has ever seen. Right? And also from these Ascended Masters, who also have all this like intense knowledge. And they are, they're not like physical beings. They are these ethereal beings on this other plane that she could communicate to. And how, how do you doubt that, right? Like, especially at that time, how do you doubt something like that? Just, you can't see it, but doesn't mean that this person isn't communicating with them, so. Yeah, and she was also quite inspired by Ignatius Donnelly and his version of Atlantis as well. So it's a time of the, it was a time where people were so curious about where did we come from as people?

• 19:16Speaker 03

  And she and Ignatius Donnelly and so many others were kind of just trying to fill in these blanks.

• 19:23Liv Albert?

  Yeah, I was going to say, he's the other one that I think between the two of them, that's, we can probably trace all of the current Atlantis, everything to those two people, both of whom came, you know, a couple thousand years after Plato wrote about that.

• 19:39Liv Albert?

  Nonsensical thing that he was not trying to say was history and he did not believe and he was not telling a myth and etc, etc, etc. You know, allegory, Plato wrote an allegory and then suddenly 2000 or so years later, these people are coming up with these wild stories of how real it was and then how, you know, I think Ignatius Donnelly, I have not read, I have it, but I've not read through that yet. I don't want to say yet. I probably won't read the whole thing at least. But you know, I think his was more about proving it existed. And then it seems this Blavatsky was more about the spirituality section that then people seem to have taken hold of.

• 20:20Speaker 03

  Yeah, yeah. Ignatius Donnelly in the Atlantis, the Antediluvian world, he, he kind of was like, okay, look, guys, I haven't found Atlantis, but it was real and these are my 13 points to prove it was real. We just need to find the proof for that. So his kind of, I always think of the Antediluvian world as almost like a, a call for help. One of those, okay, I'm, I'm giving you all this information now historians and archaeologists and linguistics folks, like you go find me that proof. That's the, that's the way I've sort of always thought about the Antediluvian world. So, and it's just, yeah, it's interesting to listen to people talk about Atlantis today when they talk about these Atlantis theories.

• 21:03Speaker 03

  And everybody mentions Plato and they're like, well, Plato first mentioned Atlantis. I'm like, yes, he did, but you're telling me Ignatius Donnelly's Atlantis. You're not telling me Plato's Atlantis. Plato didn't actually even write that much about Atlantis.

• 21:17Liv Albert?

  No.

• 21:18Speaker 03

  It was like a few odds and ends mentions here, but not really that much.

• 21:21Liv Albert?

  That's the thing. And it was so like, it, you can tell by the way people talk about it that they want to call back to Plato because then you've got this ancient Greek source, right?

• 21:29Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 21:30Liv Albert?

  You have to have this ancient Greek name in order to, to make it sound legitimate. But they clearly, or if they have read Plato, they're not paying attention to Plato or they don't know what he was writing. And like, I don't study the philosophers, you know, like I did my degree and I somehow managed to like never read any philosophy in an entire classics degree and I'm fine with that. But even I know.

• 21:53Speaker 03

  Bravo.

• 21:53Liv Albert?

  Yeah, thank you. Mythology, right? And, but I think, I mean, even I know enough about Plato to know that he's not a mythographer. He's not trying to tell mythology. He has no interest in that side of it. Not to say he doesn't have an interest in mythology because it was part of their world. They didn't consider it mythology. They considered it part of their world. So he certainly cared. He certainly like mentioned gods and things, but he wasn't telling a story from myth. He was making an allegory to prove an unrelated point about hubris. And, and it's so interesting to me, the way people reference Plato, but then don't reference what he actually said, because in order to believe Atlantis from

• 22:38Liv Albert?

  Plato, you have to believe that Athens was equally advanced in that time period, which is historically and archaeologically untrue.

• 22:49Speaker 03

  Right.

• 22:49Liv Albert?

  And nobody ever mentions this incredibly advanced Athens. That's like, it doesn't matter because it's not lost and it's provably untrue. And so it's like, no, no, no. In my theories of Atlantis, there's no Athens. I don't know what you're talking about. It's fascinating. And, and I think it's so telling about the things, the way that these conspiracy theories pick what they want and ignore the rest. And I think that's basically pseudo archaeology too, right?

• 23:19Speaker 03

  Yeah, yeah, exactly. Pseudo archaeology, it's just a type of conspiracy theory and archaeological conspiracy theory is the way I've been defining it. And it is, yeah, it's very much just cherry picking, cherry picking what suits the narrative. And it's not to say that the information that's being used is incorrect at times. Like if people are pulling from archaeological sources, historical sources, they're using information, but they're divorcing it from its context and they're leaving out certain bits and pieces. And I guess counting on their audience to not go looking for that. And then of course, the other idea too, is that this idea of suppression and, and circular reasoning and, and where

• 24:00Speaker 03

  if you're trying to argue, like, no, that, that's not true. Like there's, here's the evidence to help us say that's, that's not likely not how it happened. That is taken to, to mean it is true because we're now trying to suppress that information or reject that information, stigmatize it. And then of course, if they do find something that does support them, that also means it's true. So it's, yeah, conspiracy theories are difficult to deal with because of that fact. They can be tricky.

• 24:33Liv Albert?

  Well, because the real conspiracy, they say, would then be everyone hiding the truth.

• 24:38Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 24:38Liv Albert?

  You know, it's everyone's teamed up, all the historians and archaeologists have teamed up to talk about how Atlantis isn't real because they're hiding the real Atlantis. What would be the point of that is always my question. It's how I felt about all the COVID conspiracies. It's like, why would the whole world team up to pretend that there was a pandemic? And also, talk to me about how you think the US and Russia and China are going to come together and plan this? Because historically, I think this is unlikely. Anyway, I'm getting into my own, but like, I think, and I think that that sort of is inherently, you know, the nature of, of the way certain people think is like, there's a government conspiracy for everything.

• 25:15Speaker 03

  It's true. It's true. Conspiracy theories are actually just really easy to fall into. And then you get the idea, also the idea of, of community, being part of this group of like-minded individuals and, and who are supporting you. And when you find that sense of community, it's like cults, right? People join cults to, to find community, this community of like-minded individuals. Once they find that, that's so hard to break people out of that, right? So, yeah, it's, it's fine. Conspiracy theories are, they are a lot easier to fall into than what you think. And just, I've had conversations where recently I had a conversation, for example, where this woman was telling me, no, I don't believe in any conspiracy theories and immediately launched into a particularly aggressive conspiracy

• 26:00Speaker 03

  theory in this conversation. I was like, oh, there it is. There's the conspiracy theory. But the, the issue that then like, sort of, we were just talking about is how do we address that without feeding into that idea of suppression and stigmatization? And that's, that's the struggles. How do we address these issues, confront these issues without being suppressive?

• 26:28Speaker 03

  It's hard.

• 26:29Liv Albert?

  Hmm. Do you have any like strategic ways that you try to go about it? Or are you just sort of constantly learning?

• 26:37Speaker 03

  Constantly learning. I, yeah, it's tough. I'm working on finding ways to address and discuss conspiracy theories without amplifying them. That for me is kind of the first step because I think it is important to talk about these. And I think it is important to highlight these ideas that are being shared and these, these ideologies and these beliefs when they're built from archaeological knowledge, when they're built from our information. I think it's really important to address that and, and talk about that. But have to find a way to do that without amplifying the message. And especially when we're dealing with the alt-right. And social media is a great, wonderful tool to have these discussions

• 27:19Speaker 03

  on. And especially because we see examples of this everywhere. It's also a really easy tool to amplify these messages. So that's where I'm kind of at right now, is trying to find the best ways to talk about without adding oxygen to it and driving attention and followers and elevating that. Another thing that I find sort of helps is when I talk about the, the historiography essentially of these ideas, the, the development of these ideas. So when I talk to somebody about Atlantis and they say, well, you know, Atlantis might be real. I like to talk about how Atlantis went from fiction to fact, essentially. And,

• 28:01Speaker 03

  and I traced this path and I find sometimes that, that helps. People sort of take an extra breath and they, it doesn't escalate in more, in, at least in the experiences I've had, it doesn't always escalated as much as just outright being like, no, you're wrong. There are always exceptions to that rule.

• 28:19Liv Albert?

  Of course.

• 28:21Speaker 03

  Oh man, Atlantis has some fierce fanboys that I've tangled with a few times. But yeah.

• 28:28Liv Albert?

  I'm currently deciding how I'm, how best to release these and how much to.

• 28:35Liv Albert?

  Put myself out there with them. I'm like,

• 28:37Speaker 03

  Right, right. It's tough. It's really tough.

• 28:41Liv Albert?

  Yeah.

• 28:42Speaker 03

  Um, especially, oh, man, there's this one guy who likes to email me, um, just these, these epic emails in the fans of Atlantis, and he got particularly riled up by all the discussions that led to this podcast interview. You clearly remember those discussions that were happening.

• 28:57Liv Albert?

  I do, and I appreciate how cryptic you're being about them.

• 29:01Speaker 03

  Yes. So these discussions happen on Twitter and this man got even angrier about it. Um, and was harping at me on Twitter and sending more, more and more emails. And it, it's especially, it impacts women, marginalized genders far more than it impacts men. Um, so that's also something we have to consider when we're trying to discuss these. It's, yeah, like you were just saying, how much can we discuss that's not going to, or that's also going to minimize potential harm to ourselves.

• 29:36Liv Albert?

  Mm hmm.

• 29:36Speaker 03

  So it's, yeah, there, there's so many different things to think about, um, when discussing these. And that, that's something that I also want to be part of my PhD is trying to come up with the best way to discuss these and address these without amplifying and trying not to feed into that stigmatized mindset either. So right now, still learning, um, still practicing different things, but maybe one day we'll have a good idea.

• 30:02Liv Albert?

  Yeah. I mean, just the way you were saying about tracing the, the historiography of it, that's sort of what I, and I haven't, I haven't written at the, the time of this recording, I have not written the, the episode or episodes that will accompany them. Um, and so I intend to, to have these narrative episodes that basically just track what happened, because I do think my go-to, and you know, it tends to be, I don't, I don't really dive in on Twitter because I sort of learned my lesson there. Um, but I, I just kind of go straight to the Plato didn't believe it was real. And let me tell you about that, kind of, right? I think that's, it's one of the simplest. And it certainly, you know, unless people are really deep, like if people just have a basic idea of it that they think

• 30:47Liv Albert?

  is real, they're going to second guess everything by just hearing that like, no, no Plato, that wasn't even what Plato was doing. He, he didn't seem to believe it at all. If you read it, it's, it's definitely an allegory. It might even be tongue in cheek. Like, there's so much you can read into the very, the only ancient sources we have for Atlantis. That's the, the clear, the clear point to make too, is it is the only ancient source that mentions Atlantis. There is not a single other. And thus, like that, you know, there's, there's so many things that should make it obvious. And then it's interesting when it's, it doesn't make it obvious to people.

• 31:27Speaker 03

  Yeah. Atlantis, from what Plato wrote of Atlantis, Atlantis sounds like an amazing place. Like, what a cool place to be with all these like gold dolphin statues and these like rings of land and these huge amphitheaters and structures and all these things. Like, what a cool place. And enormous too. I, I think he described as larger than Asia and Libya combined. And of course, this is based on, on what the Greeks knew of those land masses and how they had mapped it at that time. So, so not necessarily Asia and Libya as we know it today, but the general idea still exists that Atlantis was enormous.

• 32:08Liv Albert?

  Mm hmm.

• 32:09Speaker 03

  So why was Plato the only one talking about it? Where were the people traveling to Atlantis? Where the, where are the people trading and living there and moving in and out? Cause we know that the Greeks were, were record keepers. They loved to write shit down. Um.

• 32:25Liv Albert?

  Yeah. Even if it's just like a linear B reference to, because of course this is Bronze Age and you know, the, the whole thing then is, well, it was so many thousand years before, blah, blah, blah. But even still, like, you know, the likelihood is that we would have a linear B reference to like, well, we gave them some wine or we gave some wine to some people who were just past those ruins of Atlantis, you know? Like, there, there certainly would be something, you know? Herodotus would have heard about it. And even he made up a lot of history at times, but he also did travel around and talk to a lot of people. And, you know, Herodotus would have heard about it at the very least in, you know, all of his, his talk. And yeah, they, that's the thing, you know, there, there would be at least one other reference,

• 33:08Liv Albert?

  but there would certainly be lots of references. Were it true? Or, or were there some kind of, um, you know, epic event that caused the fall of Atlantis?

• 33:19Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 33:20Liv Albert?

  And then of course, the ultimate thing is, well, where is this super advanced Athens then? Because we have all the archaeology of Athens and like Bronze Age Athens was pretty meh comparatively to other Bronze Age sites in the area, right? Like, you know, I think, yeah, it's best described as meh. It wasn't not there, but it wasn't one of the big ones.

• 33:41Speaker 03

  No, not at all. Um, and you know, we're always, we're always learning more, obviously. We're always uncovering more. We're always learning more. Um, part of archaeology is being flexible and, and accepting new ideas. And we're always accused, I'm always told, oh, you're closed minded. Archaeologists are closed minded. No, we, we are extremely open minded. That's how our, um, knowledge shifts and we learn more and we, um, adjust our, our thoughts as they come about, most of us. Um, so, yeah, I mean, you could argue, sure, maybe there's the possibility that one day all this information will be uncovered, but what, like, I would expect to, it has been uncovered by now.

• 34:22Speaker 03

  So many people have gone looking and again, thinking of the size, the, the materials that they had. I honestly would expect we would have found it by now, to be honest.

• 34:33Liv Albert?

  Well, also Plato is quite clear about where it is, right? He's like pillars of Heracles, right? So he's basically saying it's at the Strait of Gibraltar. So if we, you know, it, it, people then will argue it's like somewhere in the middle of nowhere. And I'm like, okay, but he says very clearly, pillars of Heracles, which is the Strait of Gibraltar.

• 34:50Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 34:50Liv Albert?

  You know, so, yeah, it, it's, that's the thing, right? He, he, he's not being cryptic about it because it's an allegory, because he's not presenting something that he believes as real and that he is presenting as fact.

• 35:14Liv Albert?

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• 35:58Liv Albert?

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• 36:41Liv Albert?

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• 37:01Speaker 02

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• 38:34Speaker 01

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• 39:04Speaker 04

  Hi folks, this is Mark Bittman from the podcast Food with Mark Bittman. And I'm here to suggest that you host Thanksgiving with industry-leading quality standards from Whole Foods Market. There are, as usual, no antibiotics ever in their meat department. So carve up turkey and spiral cut ham with peace of mind. Shop organic sides like stuffing mix and cranberry sauce from 365 brand. And guess what? All of their fabulous delectable pies are made with no high fructose corn syrup. Where else are you going to find that? Gourmet Thanksgiving flavors with the quality you want, only at Whole Foods Market.

• 40:02Liv Albert?

  Now, one thing I really want to make sure that we talk about with you, because I think you're probably my best source for it, is how harmful these things can be, specifically, and I know base level amounts of this, but, but the way that it's then used to justify white supremacy.

• 40:21Speaker 03

  Yes, right, so, again, if we think about Blavatsky, we can start with Blavatsky, it's always Blavatsky. But yeah, so Blavatsky talked about how the Aryans, which were the best of the best of the root races, evolved from Atlantis. And Germany went through this really intense period of re-enchantment, trying to find their history, trying to find their stories, leading up to World War I, World War II. It didn't, the stuff didn't just start in World War II, it started a long, long, long time before that.

• 41:00Speaker 03

  And some of the influential thinkers who were part of this re-enchantment that ultimately the Nazis ended up attaching themselves to this line of thinking, they were really enthralled by Blavatsky's idea of Aryans and Atlantis, and they combined that with many other sources to essentially create this idea of these Aryans as being like almost supernatural beings, these incredible beings with just like super white skin and blue eyes and super, super powerful. And so during World War II, the Nazis, they had the, what was called the Anunnabe, the

• 41:44Speaker 03

  SS Anunnabe, it was like their archaeology and heritage division. And they were very interested in finding proof of the Aryans, kind of the Ignatius Donnelly approach to Atlantis, they were interested for the Aryan, so looking for this archaeological proof of Aryan homelands and centers and all this stuff. But part of that involved also looking for Atlantis, because they were looking for their homeland essentially, so they're looking for the Aryans, but where did the Aryans come from? So they were looking for Atlantis. And so, yeah, that was, that was a bigger part of the war, it wasn't like an enormous part of the war, but it was a bigger part of World War II and Nazi ideologies and beliefs than many people realize.

• 42:27Speaker 03

  And so since then, you have Atlantis, at least from what I've been looking at, Atlantis traveling into, from the original Nazis, right into neo-Nazism as well, and this, through this idea of Aryan. So there are a lot of, and again, I'm just focusing on North America, not necessarily European groups, but in North American groups, you have a lot, a lot of neo-Nazi movements, or individuals, high-level individuals who have spoken about Atlantis and talked about this history and because of its connections to Aryan. You've got leaders, there was one man who was a leader of some major American neo-Nazi

• 43:07Speaker 03

  parties in the 60s and 70s, who now writes books, book after book after book about Atlantis. And Atlantis in North America, North America, he rewrites North American history to suit these ideologies. You have other folks today who, his most recent book actually was published just this last July. You have other folks who write for some big-time white nationalist websites, and they also talk about Aryans and Atlantis, and they pull in, they even actually pull in ancient aliens. I've seen one guy talk about the show Ancient Aliens, and he just argues, well, no, no, no, they're not, they're mistaken when they're describing aliens, they haven't found proof of aliens, they've found proof of these Aryans, and they just need to recognize that.

• 43:49Speaker 03

  There was another neo-Nazi group in 70s, I have to find it again, who had Atlantis in their name. There's other neo-Nazi groups who write these very long manifestos, talking about the history of, there's one in particular, I'm thinking of, who has this very, very long manifesto, describing the history of Aryanism, and they also draw in Atlantis. So it's, yeah, it's just through these like, it's almost like the telephone game, you start off with this one idea, Blavatsky, and then as it gets passed on, it changes, and it changes, and it changes into what a lot of white nationalists and neo-Nazis are using today.

• 44:27Liv Albert?

  Well, I think, you know, even just simply and from my non-research in it, it seems like the easiest way to counter the idea that everyone came from Africa is to say that, no, there's a subset that came from Atlantis, we just don't have it.

• 44:45Speaker 03

  Yeah, yeah, exactly, it's true, and I think that's also why so many people, a lot of these sort of groups latch on to archaeological knowledge, and because it's this idea of Atlantis is very intangible, archaeology provides tangible, it provides these things you can hold, you can go see, you can travel through these rooms at these sites, so it gives something tangible to the intangible. So I see a lot of groups and individuals trying really hard to pull in archaeology and tie it to things like Aryan and Atlantis, or just these other white European ancestors,

• 45:28Speaker 03

  thinking about the Sluterean hypothesis in particular, just to find, to be able to say, look, here is this tangible item that proves this all true, even though it doesn't. And again, like what we were talking about earlier, it's that divorce from context and filling in these blanks with our own narratives.

• 45:47Liv Albert?

  It's extra fascinating too, because, I mean, if you think about it, if you just let yourself kind of believe that, sure, actually, the one time, you know, Plato was actually secretly telling us this history, even though, you know, he didn't actually do that.

• 46:04Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 46:05Liv Albert?

  You know, even if so, that it, you have to still connect to the other problematic idea that exists within study of the Greek and Roman world, this idea that they were particularly white in the way that we see whiteness now, like, you know, there's, I've been trying to learning to put the phrase on it that we, you know, the way we see whiteness now impacts that versus them being white or not white.

• 46:32Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 46:33Liv Albert?

  Because obviously, they did not see race in any of the same ways that we did, and like, they didn't really care about skill, skin color, it was all about whether or not you spoke Greek, that's what made you a good person, or, or like worthy of, you know, extreme, you know, what's the word I want, prejudice against you, is, what if you, did you speak Greek? You could be, you know, a person that we would call black, but if you spoke Greek, you're fine. Because, yeah, I mean, in the ancient world, they, they traded throughout the whole Mediterranean, which includes Africa and the Middle East, and they absolutely traveled around and emigrated and all of these different things, where the idea of whiteness placed upon Greek, or Greece and Rome is so absurd and nonsensical, that, you know, you have to have this, just

• 47:18Liv Albert?

  this alternative view of all of it, you know, you have to believe Plato, and you have to believe that everyone was white, even though it's simply marble has lost its color, polychromy, you know, existed, and it all just came off, and we all just see marble and then think of this whiteness, it's, it's so, I mean, I find it fascinating, it's so dark too, but it is just so interesting, the way these things have become the mess that they are.

• 47:41Speaker 03

  Yeah, it's true, and, and the thing about conspiracy theories too, and stigmatized knowledge, which is a particular term coined by Michael Barkin, who has written some wonderful, wonderful work about conspiracy theories, but people who believe in one conspiracy theory tend to believe in others, and all of those come together to form a particular worldview that this person holds. So, yeah, this idea of ancient Greeks being only white, and tying that to Atlantis, you have to also believe, like you were just explaining, in other sort of conspiracy theories that help support each other to create this particular worldview.

• 48:17Liv Albert?

  I mean, and all of these reasons are why I want to, to create these episodes on Atlantis, because it's not about just like disproving Atlantis, that's not the point, right? Like, if it was just about people believing in this like ancient world that was kind of cool, and that's all it was, then who cares? Like, let them believe that, you know, but it's, it's all of the, the problems that stem from this belief, and all of the racial issues, and the straight, like, dangerous racist ideologies that come out of this, and you're like, okay, well, I would like my listeners personally, who are good-hearted and not racist, and not sexist, and not misogynist, and all of these different things, I would like them to understand that Atlantis is not real for all of these reasons.

• 49:01Liv Albert?

  And I, it just interests me so much in the idea of how it became this, because, you know, growing up, I think we're probably a similar age, growing up, we had the Disney movie, you know? And I always just believed Atlantis was a myth, not necessarily that I believed it was real, but I believed it was a Greek myth. And then getting to a point where I learned that it is not remotely a Greek myth, that alone was mind-blowing to me, and I think most people think it's a myth, even if they don't have any strong views about it as history, or conspiracy, or whatever, but they at least think it was a myth, because the world treats it like a myth.

• 49:39Speaker 03

  Yeah, it's true, it's true, and especially, I mean, it doesn't help that we have all of these, these documentaries coming out on History Channel, or Discovery Channel, or Travel Channel, or whatever, that are all about finding that evidence for Atlantis. There's this, this concept called discovery paranormalism, which comes from David Anderson and Jeb Card, they didn't come up with this term, but they've sort of begun applying it to pseudo-archaeology, and, and discovery paranormalism sort of refers to being the first to find the proof of something. That is a very simplistic way of describing it, but that's part of the thrill, and so

• 50:18Speaker 03

  when you watch these shows, it's, it's kind of like equal parts finding proof of Atlantis to prove these conspiracy theories true, or prove your ideas right, but also just that thrill you get from finding, being the first to find this evidence, so, and that just, when you have folks who don't really know the history, and they don't really know all this background context that, that we are all very privileged to have, because we happen to be within these fields and these disciplines, and we have access to these resources, it's kind of easy to, to fall for it. I, I don't blame anybody for falling for pseudo-archaeology, any pseudo-archaeological theory, I'll never be mad at anybody who falls into that, it's really easy to see why, like, those are the books you get on the bookshelves, or the shows you get on Netflix

• 51:02Speaker 03

  and Prime and TV channels and whatnot. So we just need to, I, I'm a big advocate of giving folks the tools that I use to deconstruct these and assess these, and hoping that it's sort of...

• 51:17Speaker 03

  Makes people a bit more aware. Um, I don't think it's a bad thing to talk about Atlantis. I don't think it's a bad thing to have books and shows and movies that use Atlantis as a plotline. But you do have to acknowledge that side of the Atlantis story, this dark side, how Atlantis has been used to cause some really serious harm to people. And I'm talking like physical harm to people. If you're gonna use Atlantis as a plotline, acknowledge that shit. Talk about it. Make people aware, make yourself aware, and don't repeat that.

• 51:50Liv Albert?

  Yeah.

• 51:51Speaker 03

  Those are my concerns.

• 51:53Liv Albert?

  Yeah, I think that's so valid. I mean, yeah, and to be clear, like, I think that Disney movie is great.

• 51:57Speaker 03

  It's so fun. I loved it.

• 51:59Liv Albert?

  It's wonderful. It's incredibly entertaining movie. It's more entertaining even when you understand how little there actually is. Like, you know, it, it, like, how little history, how little, you know, there's that, the whole sort of beginning scene where he's laying out his whole argument. And you think, oh, my God, look at all of this, so much evidence. And he's like, no. Literally, no.

• 52:22Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 52:23Liv Albert?

  Yeah, so that's the thing, right? It's, well, and that's why, you know, to any of my listeners who didn't know that Atlantis wasn't a myth, or who didn't know all these problematic things and just assumed Atlantis was like this cool idea, this cool lost city, or all of these different things, yeah, like, no blame. Like, I used to think it was a myth until, probably until this podcast where I, you know, just read up enough. Like, I don't even think in my degree, there was any reason for anyone to just come out and say Atlantis was never a myth, right? It just doesn't necessarily come up, whereas it does come up in pop culture to teach you that it is a myth.

• 52:58Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 52:58Liv Albert?

  Um, and so, yeah, it's more about just pointing out that, you know, it's, it wasn't a myth. It was not history, you know, all these different things. And, but also specifically the harm that has been caused in its name. And thus why you have to, like, be a little careful about the idea of it. And, and, you know, what you believe in, why, and where you've gotten it from. And, you know, who had these ideas also. And, yeah, I mean, the fact that the Nazis were looking for Atlantis, I think, is, is a good thing to know. Because I think it makes a connection there between, you know, perhaps, you know, what, what can become a problem with believing, or not necessarily believing, but, you know, just the side, the, the different aspects of it and where it has gone over time.

• 53:39Speaker 03

  Yes, exactly. And especially, I like your point about knowing where that information came from. If you're gonna use something, know where it came from.

• 53:48Speaker 03

  I think about like a comic series that I, I read that I really enjoyed, but, um, was based on Atlantis and kind of in the back of each, um, issue. Dave Anderson talked to you about pop culture. I'm assuming he talked about pop culture. He's a pop culture kind of guy.

• 54:02Liv Albert?

  To an extent, we talked about the movie, the Atlantis movie and like a couple of other things, but I don't think about.

• 54:07Speaker 03

  Okay, so, yeah, I'm not sure if he would have talked about this series or not. But, um, it's, it's a great series. I really enjoyed it. But at the back of each issue, there were like, um, I guess supposed to be like diary entries from the character that the other characters were looking for in the series. He had disappeared while searching for Atlantis. And, um, so they find his diary, and I guess each of these issues is sort of a diary entry. Um, and it's clear that these comic creators did a lot of research in, by, like, the information that's in these diary issues, um, or diary entries. You could go on Google and you can find a lot of this information, these theories that people believed, or these, like, illustrations of maps that actually exist, stuff like that. Um, which is, is great. Like, I like detail and accuracy.

• 54:52Speaker 03

  But also, in this case, like, where did that information come from that you are now putting into your comic and broadcasting out to your, your audience? And I see, I've seen some of the things in those diary entries picked up by, uh, some QAnon believers who talked about kind of the same things and, and stuff like that. So, that's why I think it's, it's so important to know where that information came from. Acknowledge that, own that too. Like, I know other, um, pseudo-archaeologists and conspiracy theorists. I've seen one in particular, I'm thinking of a video, or, um, one of his books where he was writing about,

• 55:28Speaker 03

  something to do with Mars, if I remember correctly, in this particular section. And he's quoting this one person quite often, information from this one person. And it's basically like, yeah, this guy was a Nazi, but that doesn't really matter. It actually does matter. Um, so, yeah, be aware of where that information is coming from.

• 55:46Liv Albert?

  Hmm. I mean, I think it should always matter if a person was a Nazi. There's a lot of groups where it maybe matters less. I think it always matters if somebody was a Nazi. Yeah.

• 55:56Speaker 03

  Yep, yep. I've been, I've been told, um, when talking about this, the Nazis and Atlantis, I, I have been told by this individual who I mentioned earlier, who likes to email me and talk on Twitter, that, you know, it's time to, let's, let's move past the Nazis. Stop talking about the Nazis. It's time to kind of move on. We've heard enough about the Nazis. I'm like, hmm, I don't think we have.

• 56:14Liv Albert?

  No, I don't think we are, as a humanity, are ever allowed to move on. That should be the point. We're not allowed. You're not allowed to ever say, like, we've moved past the Nazis. Nope.

• 56:24Speaker 03

  Nope.

• 56:24Liv Albert?

  That's, that's why they say history repeats itself, like, you know?

• 56:28Speaker 03

  History is repeating itself right now, so be aware of that.

• 56:31Liv Albert?

  More so than ever. Yeah, absolutely.

• 56:34Speaker 03

  Yeah. Oh, man, Atlantis, always an interesting conversation.

• 56:38Liv Albert?

  Yeah. Oh, well, um, I mean, what else? Like, this is just fascinating and it's fun. And I, uh, yeah, it's nice talking to a woman about this as well, because I think you get it, you have a different side of it.

• 56:51Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 56:51Liv Albert?

  It's also damn fascinating, so.

• 56:54Speaker 03

  It is, it is. It's just, yeah, it's, um, it's one of those things that I think archaeologists are really, really opening up to. I think, you know, we, we knew it was there, um, but to what degree, we weren't entirely aware. And I, um, I spend time going into really terrible places on the internet and just to see what people are saying. And, uh, it is shocking, even to me. Like, I expected to find archaeology. I expected to find pseudo-archaeology.

• 57:28Speaker 03

  But even then, I'm still surprised at how much is in there.

• 57:33Speaker 03

  But, uh, yeah, I think it just sort of all comes down to this idea of just trying to find this tangible proof of something. And, and it's certain, certain theory, uh, thirties, more so than others. Like, Solutrian is very, very popular, um, Atlantis.

• 57:47Liv Albert?

  What is that?

• 57:48Speaker 03

  The Solutrian hypothesis. Um, so, Solutrian hypothesis is this idea that was proposed, um, was proposed, I think, originally in the thirties, and then it kind of died away, because even back then, archaeologists were like, this, no, this isn't very credible theory. And then it was revived in the nineties. Is the idea that about twenty-ish thousand, it's somewhere, I think it's somewhere between seventeen and twenty thousand years ago, um, the Solutrian folks, which were a, a, a culture, uh, within southwestern Europe, France and Spain, Portugal, uh, Portugal, France and Spain, in any case. They're known for their, like, beautiful artwork. Also, they have these very particular stone, um, lithic points called Solutrian points for the,

• 58:32Speaker 03

  and it's the way they're crafted and whatnot. They're known for these. So, the Solutrian hypothesis suggested that sometime from fifteen to twenty thousand years ago, Solutrian people came across the Atlantic, which was frozen. So, they partially climbed across, um, almost like portaging, across this frozen bridge, also with boats, um, and they came into, to North America, was now North America.

• 58:57Speaker 03

  And it's entirely based on a couple of fluted lithic points that were found, um, that resemble Solutrian. They really do look like Solutrian points, but like, but people can sort of come up with the same thing independently. Um, so, anyway, yeah, it's this idea. Also, like, there's no evidence for Solutrians having watercraft at all. So, where did this idea of them taking boats come across? And, and especially thinking about how they were known for their artwork. They have this just beautiful, beautiful artwork. Nowhere do boats appear in that artwork. So, um, there are sort of many, it's, it's not, a, a lot of archaeologists disagree with this theory. They don't find it very credible. Um, they've discredited it for decades now.

• 59:41Speaker 03

  The, uh, Solutrian hypothesis has become very, very popular within white nationalist circles, um, because of this idea of Europeans first.

• 59:50Speaker 03

  Even though recent genetic evidence suggests that, uh, Solutrian folks or, or people who were living around that, that time period, twenty-two-ish thousand years ago, uh, likely had darker skin.

• 1:00:00Liv Albert?

  Yeah, especially in that area.

• 1:00:02Speaker 03

  Yeah, exactly. That does not matter. So, uh, yeah, within white nationalist circles, the, the Solutrian has been very, very adopted. Um, it appears on particular white nationalist websites within this sort of manifesto on one white nationalist website, like, the first thing that's discussed.

• 1:00:20Speaker 03

  And yeah, they, these nationalists sort of use it to say, you know, white Europeans were here first. And then First Nations people came and violently displaced us and we were.

• 1:00:31Liv Albert?

  Oh, oh my god.

• 1:00:33Speaker 03

  It feeds into this, this conspiracy theory called, uh, the Great Replacement Theory.

• 1:00:38Liv Albert?

  Oh, yep.

• 1:00:39Speaker 03

  Yes. And, and this is viewed as, as proof, physical proof of that, even though there is no evidence for any sort of violent displacement of, of white Europeans at any point.

• 1:00:50Liv Albert?

  No.

• 1:00:50Speaker 03

  But yeah, that is a very popular, popular theory. Um, it also, like I was saying, it's been widely discredited by archaeologists. But a few years ago, the C B C, um, on the nature of things, had a documentary dedicated to the Salutarian hypothesis. And the what if it is real type of thing.

• 1:01:09Liv Albert?

  Oh, gosh.

• 1:01:10Speaker 03

  And that was a whole thing. Um, the director archaeologists immediately were like, whoa, whoa, whoa, hang on. Uh, this isn't particularly great. Um, part of the issue was in the early two thousands on Discovery Channel. There was, uh, a documentary about Salutarian hypothesis that used only white actors. And that also sort of is what fed into this idea of, um, or why white nationalists adopted is they, they cite that documentary quite often too. So there was concern about that essentially being repeated through the C B C. Um, questions about, are you going to address the white nationalist appropriations of this theory?

• 1:01:49Speaker 03

  And C B C was like, or the director, I should say, was like, no, like, I, I don't want to give any lick of air to that discussion at all. Because their idea was by not talking about it, you're not amplifying it or not supporting it.

• 1:02:03Liv Albert?

  Mm hmm.

• 1:02:04Speaker 03

  But you're also not saying no to that.

• 1:02:09Liv Albert?

  Yeah. And you're not pointing out the problematic nature of the theory in general.

• 1:02:14Speaker 03

  Yes. So that was, uh, there was an interview for, um, one of the big newspapers about that. And that's where this director was saying that. But then also one of the archaeologists also said that, uh, that, that racist appropriation side was not his issue. And he can't control how people are going to use the theory. And I, that line.

• 1:02:35Speaker 03

  Oh, definitely. Uh, yeah, white, middle aged man.

• 1:02:38Liv Albert?

  Oh, and he had the call to say that? Weird.

• 1:02:42Speaker 03

  Yeah, exactly. If, and that line, like, I think about that line all the time. It just drove me bananas. Uh, cause I think it is your issue. Like, yes, you can't control how people are going to, to appropriate your work. But I, I do think you have a responsibility to speak out against that.

• 1:02:59Liv Albert?

  Mm hmm.

• 1:03:00Speaker 03

  Also, keeping in mind, like, what we were talking about earlier, about how certain, um, folks do have to be more concerned about their safety than other folks that they're going to confront this. But we do, we do have to confront it and it is our issue. Um, so yeah, I think about that. And one of the, one of the neo-Nazi, uh, groups I mentioned also ties Atlantis to Salutrians. So they sort of all run in the same circles.

• 1:03:24Liv Albert?

  Mm hmm. Well, and I think as Canadian too, we have a, I don't, I mean, I don't think it's bigger than those in the States. But I certainly think, you know, given our world at this current moment, like, white Canadians have a real responsibility to not perpetuate problematic theories that affect, you know, indigenous people that we have already, like, completely ruined over generations.

• 1:03:48Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:03:49Liv Albert?

  The idea of, of then adding something on top of that, that, that like suggests that they were not, you know, here first and that we, you know, any of it. Like, it's such an important issue in Canada specifically.

• 1:04:02Speaker 03

  Yeah, it is. It really is. It's the, that history, we, we can't deny, don't deny that history, except that this happened. Uh, and it's really, it's not history. Um, yeah, don't deny it. Don't rewrite it. Don't try to like alter it to make yourself feel better as a, a white settler Canadian, you know?

• 1:04:21Liv Albert?

  Mm hmm. Yeah. Gosh, absolutely. Oh, my gosh. I guess this is just something that's occurred to me, but, um, are there archaeologists working on residential schools then? Is that like a thing happening in Canada?

• 1:04:33Speaker 03

  Yeah. Um, so archaeologists, it's, it's not archaeology. That work is very clearly not archaeology. Um, archaeologists have, uh, some archaeologists do, not all, um, but some have a very particular skillset in using G P R equipment, um, to be able to, uh, analyze the data in particular ways to, um, determine if there are graves or not. Um, and it, it's a very particular skillset and it's a very small number of archaeologists who have that skillset. Um, one of my, my P H D colleagues, he's also doing his P H D, uh, he and my supervisor, he's also, um, my supervisor student. They are some of them, uh, some of those very small group of, of archaeologists who have those skills.

• 1:05:14Speaker 03

  And, um, the group that I'm part of has sort of, my supervisor in particular has really taken the lead on starting those conversations, drawing together these archaeologists. We've been putting together resources to give to communities because not, um, there are so few of us that we can't possibly expect to go and do the physical work ourselves. But we also want to make sure that communities are going to hire, um, like geophysics companies. They know the right questions to ask to help them feel more sure that they're going to get the right information or get as much information as they can. So, um, yes, we've been very, very involved in that. Um.

• 1:05:49Liv Albert?

  That's great.

• 1:05:50Speaker 03

  Yeah, we've been, we've been working with several communities. We've gone and done, uh, a few surveys. That's where I was the other week. I was on one of the surveys and, uh, so yeah, we, there are a lot of, a, a fair number of archaeologists now who are working with communities for that work specifically.

• 1:06:05Liv Albert?

  That's great. I didn't know that. That's, yeah. I mean, that's so important and the government should be doing it, but hey, they're not.

• 1:06:11Speaker 03

  Yeah. They definitely should be funding it and, and they're, they are to some degree, but it's the funding they've announced is not enough. No.

• 1:06:19Liv Albert?

  No, not enough. No. Oh, Lord. Anyway, Canada. I so rarely talk to Canadians, as you can tell. Oh, my gosh. Things that other people understand that it's so, it's, I'm usually like explaining half the things to anybody.

• 1:06:32Speaker 03

  Right?

• 1:06:33Liv Albert?

  So nice. Um, yeah. Oh, my gosh. Okay. Well, this, it turns out when I get along with people, that means for a really disjointed, but really entertaining conversation. So thank you so much. I just want to kind of wrap things up for however I cut this together. But thank you, Steph, so much for doing this. This is so fascinating and interesting. And I mean, obviously it's so dark. I, I have so much trouble with, I sound so excited talking about how interesting, but it just, I mean, that the way all of these things happen and how they get to these horrifying points interests me so much. It's just, my God, I mean, it must interest you too, because you're doing your P H D in it.

• 1:07:07Speaker 03

  It's true. And we should be interested in it because it's through that interest that we become more aware, right?

• 1:07:12Liv Albert?

  That's so true. Yeah. Good. Glad to hear it. Um, well, do you want to, um, share where people can maybe learn more about your research or follow you or anything? If you don't want to, that's also fine.

• 1:07:26Speaker 03

  I am not a hard person to find. You can find me on Twitter. Um, are you gonna, are you gonna include like links on your, like, website?

• 1:07:34Liv Albert?

  I can, yeah. Okay, whatever you want.

• 1:07:35Speaker 03

  Yeah, yeah, that's totally fine. Yeah, you can find me, Twitter is where I'm most active. I'm all over Twitter. Um, and that is definitely the best place to find me.

• 1:07:43Liv Albert?

  Wonderful. I think it's such really interesting and obviously important work that you're doing researching this kind of stuff. And I didn't even, I guess it didn't even occur to me that, I mean, certainly archaeology and it is so interesting. And now, of course, the more we hear about Atlantis, like, the more I think it's obviously important, but I'm glad to hear people are doing it. If not always specifically Atlantis, but you know, it's all so interconnected that, uh.

• 1:08:06Speaker 03

  It is. It is. Sometimes Atlantis pops up in surprising places.

• 1:08:10Liv Albert?

  I bet. Yeah. The more I hear, the more that does not surprise me. It has gone everywhere.

• 1:08:16Speaker 03

  Yep. Always Atlantis. Always Levatsky.

• 1:08:22Liv Albert?

  Uh, well, thank you so much. This has been so great.

• 1:08:25Speaker 03

  Thank you very much.

• 1:08:41Liv Albert?

  Oh, nerds, nerds, nerds. This Atlantis series has been so incredibly fun and I certainly hope you felt the same way. It was definitely a departure from my regularly scheduled programming, covering this story that is so explicitly not a myth, but also is something in itself somewhat bizarre and interesting. And then to look at what it's become, the links to outright racism, straight up Nazism, among so much more. It blew my mind every step of the way. I want to give a huge thank you to my archaeologist, to my archaeologist guests. Flint Dibble, David S. Anderson and Steph Halmhofer. Their expertise added so, so much to this series.

• 1:09:24Liv Albert?

  And I'm just so thrilled I was able to share their knowledge with all of you, to help it influence my research, the whole thing. Also to my other guests, one of whom you haven't even heard from yet, Kira Jones and Lisa Charlotte, who joined me to talk about Atlantis in pop culture and what that means for the story that isn't a myth. Truly, truly, this has been so much fun. It's been so rewarding. I'm so thrilled I got to bring all of this to you, to teach you all of this, to learn it myself. Fucking Atlantis. Like, who fucking knew? God. Ah, thank you all so much for listening.

• 1:10:01Liv Albert?

  Back to some mythology very soon. Some regular old, just lovely oral tradition mythology of ancient Greece. What a time. Thank you all so much for listening. Thank you to my guests. Thank you to anyone who cares about learning the truth about Atlantis so that you don't fall into some dark and dangerous conspiracy hole that you don't even know is there.

• 1:10:25Liv Albert?

  I am Liv and I love this shit being learning, not the conspiracies of Atlantis.

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