182: A Prologue to World War II: US Army Interwar Preparation

This is the story of interwar preparation–not that the United States realized it was preparing for World War II, new technologies, innovation, and a constant pushing of the limits in the 1930s did indeed help Uncle Sam prepare for the fight to come. To get us into an interwar mindset of praying for peace while preparing for war, Professor Jackson tells us the tale of the B-17 bomber and is then joined by GEN James E. Rainey, Commanding General, U. S. Army Futures Command, to discuss how the current day Army thinks about history to prepare for the future. In this informative conversation, GEN Rainey talks about the lessons, leaders, and innovations from the Army’s 250 years of service to the nation that can inform and inspire officers, soldiers, and leaders of all vocations to meet the missions of tomorrow. General James E. Rainey is the Commanding General Commander, Army Futures Command (AFC) https://www.army.mil/futures. Headquartered in Austin, Texas, AFC is the Army’s newest major command, responsible for transforming the Army to ensure war-winning future readiness, employing 30,000 Soldiers and Civilians at 128 locations worldwide. In his previous position, General Rainey served at the Pentagon, where he oversaw the Army’s operations and plans. General Rainey commissioned as an infantry lieutenant upon graduating from Eastern Kentucky University in 1987. He has commanded at every level from platoon to division and has served in numerous combat deployments in both Iraq and Afghanistan. He earned a master’s degree in advanced military arts and science from the School of Advanced Military Studies and another in Public Administration from Troy University. He also completed a Senior Service Fellowship at the University of Denver’s Korbel School of International Relations. Disclosure: HTDS has not paid nor received any remuneration for this episode from the US Army or any other government agency. The opinions of the guest are his own and do not represent the opinions of Professor Jackson or HTDS. We are grateful to the many soldiers who have served our nation throughout history, and proud to bring discussions like this to the public in the spirit of education and access to the leaders in whom We the People place our trust. Books referenced in the interview: The official US Army field manual number one, “A Primer to our Profession of Arms” https://armypubs.army.mil/epubs/DR_pubs/DR_a/ARN43687-FM_1-000-WEB-2.pdf Freedom's Forge: How American Business Produced Victory in World War II https://amzn.to/42XI8g2 by Arthur Herman Prodigal Soldiers: How the Generation of Officers Born of Vietnam Revolutionized the American Style of War https://amzn.to/43wnkN0 by James Kitfield Real Soldiering: The US Army in the Aftermath of War, 1815-1980 https://amzn.to/4kSokRl by Brian McAllister Linn America's First Battles, 1776-1965 https://amzn.to/442humC by Charles E. Heller (Editor), William A. Stofft (Editor) General Fox Conner: Pershing’s Chief of Operations and Eisenhower’s Mentor (Leadership in Action) https://amzn.to/43HsWTmby Steven Rabalais Connect with us on HTDSpodcast.com https://www.htdspodcast.com/ and go deep into episode bibliographies https://www.htdspodcast.com/bibliography and book recommendations https://www.htdspodcast.com/book-recommendations join discussions in our Facebook community https://www.facebook.com/groups/257926761619618/ get news and discounts from The HTDS Gazette https://www.htdspodcast.com/newsletters-1 come <a href="https://www.htdspodcast.com/t ...

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• 0:00Greg Jackson?

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• 0:45Greg Jackson?

  Fine jewelry, leather bags, hotel-quality bedding, chef-grade cookware, and five-star luggage. Give the gift of quality this holiday season. Download the Quince app for app-exclusive offers or go to quince.com. Get free shipping on your order and 365-day returns. Now available in Canada and the UK, too. And when Quince asks where you heard about them, let them know it was History That Doesn't Suck. It's the best way to support the show.

• 1:12Greg Jackson?

  History That Doesn't Suck is supported by Indeed. I'm not afraid to say this. As HTDS has grown, the business requires skills I know I don't naturally possess. If I need to hire, I think this is a job for sponsored jobs. When you sponsor your job on Indeed, you'll find the candidates with the skills you're looking for. Indeed is genuinely all you need to find quality talent. Instead of putting a post out there and praying the right people see it, Indeed Sponsored Jobs proactively connects you with candidates who match your precise criteria, whether that's location, software experience, or industry experience. Spend less time searching and more time actually interviewing candidates who check all your boxes. Less stress, less time, more results. When you need the right person to cut through the chaos, this is a job for Indeed Sponsored Jobs.

• 1:56Greg Jackson?

  And listeners of this show will get a $75 sponsored job credit to help get your job the premium status it deserves at indeed.com/podcast. Just go to indeed.com/podcast right now and support our show by saying you heard about Indeed on this podcast. Indeed.com/podcast. Need to hire? This is a job for Indeed Sponsored Jobs.

• 2:28Greg Jackson?

  It's early in the morning, a bit past 9:00 a.m., Wednesday, October 30, 1935. Poyer P. Hill, or Pete, as everyone knows, this 41-year-old mustachioed Great War vet recently promoted to major, is doing his pre-flight check at Wright Field in Dayton, Ohio. But he's not alone in his cockpit. Pete's working with his crew of three fellow Wright Field employees and Boeing's chief test pilot, Leslie, or Les Tower. Les will be Pete's copilot, once the five men take off inside this still experimental aircraft. Boeing's enormous 103-foot wingspan, 15-ton bomber, Model 299, or, as it will later

• 3:10Greg Jackson?

  be designated by the Air Corps, the B-17. But you know what? Pete and his crew have their hands full. Let's leave them be while I catch you up on all that's led to this upcoming test flight. First, you might notice I said Army Air Corps, not Army Air Service, as it was known in the Great War. So what's going on there? Well, the best way to understand that is to reacquaint ourselves with Great War aviation commander, hero, and well-known thorn in the side of his superiors, Colonel Billy Mitchell. We first met Billy at the Battle of Samyel in Episode 137, and saw him clash with his superiors in Episode 140. After the Great War, he was promoted to a brigadier general, and had his planes at

• 3:55Greg Jackson?

  the ready to suppress a Union uprising against mine owners in West Virginia in 1921, which we saw back in Episode 153. Yes, you remember Billy Mitchell, and the important thing here is that he's a staunch supporter of aviation and the armed forces, and has long felt that they needed more independence. The Army Air Service's leaders, like Billy, were treated the same as tank or artillery commanders, yet the fiery flyboy argued that planes occupied a unique military function that was different from the Army or Navy. He proved his point on July 21, 1921, when his pilots dropped seven bombs on the captured German battleship-turned-test target, the Ostfriesland. They sunk it to the bomb of the ocean.

• 4:37Greg Jackson?

  To Billy, this demonstrated that the Air Service needed to be its own military branch. But cost-cutting President Silent Cal Coolidge said no. Cutting government spending across the board. He justified his policy of further reducing the military's already massively reduced spending that we learned about following the Great War in episode 150 with a simple question: Who's going to fight us? But Billy was tenacious. Actually, he was downright belligerent, getting himself demoted and court-martialed despite many in Congress and the military being on his side. Sometimes it pays to know when to shut up, Billy. That said, the head of the air service, General Mason Patrick, met Silent Cal's budgetary

• 5:18Greg Jackson?

  concerns with a compromise that created the Army Air Corps in 1926 as a separate division of the Army rather than a separate branch. This meant they would now share a budget with the Army but get their own leadership and operations, kind of like how the Marines are a part of the Navy but operate entirely separately. This also meant that the Army Air Corps could carry out operations separately from ground troops, operations like bombing raids. And that's what brings us to the Model 299, or XB-17, or YB-17, to use this experimental Boeing aircraft's many designations through its pre-production development. Building on Billy Mitchell's proven bombing precision back in 1921, the idea is to make

• 6:02Greg Jackson?

  an aircraft that can fly at long distances with a lot of bombs. Say 2,000 miles with 2,000 pounds of bombs at 200 miles per hour. Boeing took on the assignment last year in September 1934, and after 153,000 man-hours and $400,000, they were ready for a public reveal by July 1935. While Boeing calls it an "aerial battle cruiser," the public prefers the newspaper's nickname: the Flying Fortress. On August 20th, 1935, Boeing's chief test pilot, Leslie Tower, yes, one of the crew that we met at the start of this story,

• 6:43Greg Jackson?

  successfully flew the enormous armored and armed plane 2,100 miles from Seattle, Washington to the Air Corps' Training Center at Wright Field in Dayton, Ohio. That went well, and today, October 30th, 1935, Les is with Air Corps test pilot Pete Hill, checking the whole experimental craft over, prepping for the next test flight. And things look good. So hey, let's get this fortress in the air.

• 7:14Greg Jackson?

  It's now 9:30 in the morning. Seated and ready for takeoff, Major Pete Hill pushes forward on the throttle, just as he has so many times before. The enormous flying fortress rumbles down the runway at Wright Field. Inside, the crew feel the entire aircraft vibrate. Their ears ring from the growl of its four 700-plus horsepower engines and the roaring whir of the propellers. Pete pulls up and lifts the sleek aluminum bird into the skies. Boeing's XB-17 has been nothing but a success thus far, so Pete and the flight crew have every reason to relax. But just then, the plane lurches left as the wing dips toward the ground, swinging the aircraft a full 180 degrees right back to where they took off from.

• 8:00Greg Jackson?

  And then, it plummets straight toward the earth.

• 8:05Greg Jackson?

  On the ground, Lieutenants Leonard Harmon and Robert Giovinoli race as fast as they can as the metal fortress plummets.

• 8:14Greg Jackson?

  It crashes and crumples right in front of them. Oh God. They've got to act fast. Two crewmen leap out of the aircraft on impact, but as Leonard and Robert arrive at the contorted plane,

• 8:27Greg Jackson?

  the gasoline in the punctured wings ignites. Within seconds, the XB is engulfed in flames. Leonard and Robert throw their coats over their heads and race into the wreckage, coughing and hacking as they choke on smoke. The two officers manage to pull the rest of the crew out of the metallic inferno.

• 8:45Greg Jackson?

  Despite severe burns, three of the men remarkably will recover. But while Les Tower holds on for three more weeks, he ultimately passes. As for Pete Hill, he succumbs to his injuries in a matter of hours. A few years from now, in July 1939, Utah's Hill Air Force Base will be named in Major Hill's memory. Meanwhile, both Boeing and the Army are sure that this crash means the end of the XB-17. Indeed, some are calling it "too much airplane for one man to handle." But a post-crash investigation finds no structural issues or malfunction with the engines. The rudder and elevator controls were locked, causing the bomber to stall, and this loss

• 9:27Greg Jackson?

  of aerodynamic lift sent the mighty metal fortress careening back to the earth. Thus, despite this tragic event, the Army feels safe moving forward. It's a good thing, too. Soon, growing tensions in Europe and Asia will provide a stern answer to Silent Cow's question of who's going to fight us. Boeing will crank out B-17s by the thousands, and in turn, these flying fortresses will take their bomb-dropping fight to the skies in the most total war humanity has ever waged.

• 10:13Greg Jackson?

  Welcome to History That Doesn't Suck. I'm your professor, Greg Jackson, and I'd like to tell you a story.

• 10:33Greg Jackson?

  As this episode comes out in June 2025, it does so shortly after the 250th birthday of the United States Army, which was established in June 1775 by the Second Continental Congress. Since its founding in the American Revolution until today, the Army's motto has been "This will defend." And if you'd like to hear the full origin story from 250 years ago, just scroll down to HTDS Episode 6. We won't rehash that birth today, but it's worth briefly noting as we come to today's topic, which is the evolution of the US Army in the interwar period of the 1930s. Think of this special episode as a prologue to where HTDS storytelling is headed next: World War II.

• 11:17Greg Jackson?

  In the late 1930s, the US Army is totally unprepared for what Winston Churchill will later call "The Gathering Storm." When Nazi Germany invades Poland in 1939, the US Army is ranked a lowly 17th in the world, behind much smaller nations like Portugal. But, within just a few remarkable years, the Army will echo its overnight overhaul during the Great War, undergoing an awesome transformation. A transformation that was possible in no small part, thanks to a mighty citizenry corps of industry and science. That last part is key, because even as the country is still reeling from the financial gut punch of the Great Depression, US businesses are still building and innovating.

• 11:58Greg Jackson?

  You just heard one story of the Boeing Company's investment in developing the B-17 bomber. And remember those huge engineering projects we just finished exploring in recent episodes, including the government-sponsored Hoover Dam built by six companies? Well, we're going to see how the 1930s' innovation and industrial production foreshadowed what American industry could and would do when Uncle Sam calls on it during World War II. In fact, keep six companies in mind, because that wasn't the last drill here about certain members of that conglomerate of builders. War is coming, and it's not only the Army that will have to transform, it's the American home front too. The most consequential event in the 20th century is upon us.

• 12:40Greg Jackson?

  To understand this historical moment better, and to get us into the mindset of what generals from the period, like Army Chief of Staff George Marshall and others, must have been thinking, I thought it'd be fun to have a discussion with a current US Army general. And my friends, you're in for a treat, because I'm pleased to have someone who is specifically charged with continuous transformation and preparation for the next major war, even as we hope that, God willing, that war never comes.

• 13:07Greg Jackson?

  My guest today is General James E. Rainey, who leads the U.S. Army Futures Command. Yes, he's got four stars on his shoulder straps. The mission of the Army Futures Command is to ensure war-winning future readiness, as its name suggests. The general has commanded at every level, from platoon to division, and has served in numerous combat deployments in both Iraq and Afghanistan during his nearly four decades of service. His full bio is in the episode notes. As you'll hear, General Rainey and I not only discuss the U.S. Army's founding and transformation in interwar periods, we also discuss why it's important for military leaders to study history. And so, with no further ado, I'm pleased to welcome General Jim Rainey to History That Doesn't Suck.

• 13:55Greg Jackson?

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• 14:40Greg Jackson?

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• 15:08Greg Jackson?

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• 16:53Greg Jackson?

  So, General, why don't we go ahead and start with what does Army Futures Command do for the US Army?

• 17:00Speaker 02

  Yeah. Hey, thanks. Appreciate that, Greg, and thanks for having me on. Army Futures Command is one of the major commands of the United States Army, and we are primarily charged with transforming the Army to ensure war-winning future readiness. So about eight years ago, the Army decided to stand up a new four-star level Major Command, Army Command, we call them. And the genesis of that was the complexity and difficulty of modernizing and transforming warranted a major command, and we're the only service that took that approach. We already had a great organization, Army Training and Doctrine Command,

• 17:43Speaker 02

  that has, you know, a 50-year wonderful history of delivering excellence. Big, huge part of why our Army is what it is. We have Army Forces Command, which generates readiness. They own most of the Army and are responsible for getting units ready, trained, and ready to go to war. Army Material Command, another one of our great teammates, it owns an unbelievably complex portfolio of generating and sustaining all the equipment, facilities, munitions that we have. So our piece of that mission is to transform the Army. We believe we're the best Army in the world right now, best land force.

• 18:27Speaker 02

  Making sure that statement is true in 2027, 2030, 2035 is why we stood up Army Futures Command. Army Transformation Initiative was just announced by the Chief and the Secretary of the Army. Largest transformation effort easily in the last 50 years. You know, a generational-type transformation across a wide portfolio, you know, equipment and everything. And as part of that, the Army's gonna merge Army Futures Command and Army Training and Doctrine Command into a new organization that'll own the entirety of the process of manning, training, equipping, soldiers from first handshake into first unit,

• 19:11Speaker 02

  be responsible for modernizing the force we have and developing the future force. So it's pretty exciting.

• 19:18Greg Jackson?

  So could we say this is something of a lesson from the into-war period to never be an Army that is not prepared for the next big challenge? That might not be foreseeable?

• 19:30Speaker 02

  Well, I'm, you know, I'm super proud of the Army and the current leadership of the Army has got a clarity about how dangerous the world is right now and the clear understanding of the magnitude of the disruption that is happening in our profession and candidly has a risk tolerance that's commensurate with the seriousness of the threat and they're taking bold action. So yeah, I think this is clearly based on the future of, you know, defending the Constitution of the United States, defending the homeland and making sure that we never surrender that advantage we have as a country.

• 20:12Greg Jackson?

  You know, General, I don't know if you actually know this, the program I teach in at Utah Valley University is the National Security Program.

• 20:19Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 20:20Greg Jackson?

  I feel like we could go a very different direction than history right now, but I'm gonna...

• 20:24Speaker 02

  Well, we might, we might need to, we might need to schedule a redo. It's funny you say national security. In some settings, when I answer the what's AFC all about question, another, you know, people that are less familiar with the military or history, sometimes I describe it as figuring out the nexus between technology and national security. That is a big part of what, we do a lot of other stuff, but in the future side of the Army and AFC, that's really, you know, that we have the enemies in the world and threat is always, you know, geopolitics, demographics, global migration. The one that is most disruptive right now clearly is the, is the speed of technological developments.

• 21:06Greg Jackson?

  Well, let's go ahead and dive into history, though.

• 21:09Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 21:09Greg Jackson?

  A point I'd like to jump onto actually comes from one of the official US Army manuals, a primer to our profession of arms. In this book, I understand that each of the chapters begins with a story, which of course, I love that approach. In fact, a number of my listeners would be familiar with World War I's, at the time Corporal Alvin York, he's featured in there. Within the manual, if I can quote from its introduction, it says that "It is your task to look ahead to the future as well. Our Army has an incredible history, but we are the most capable land force in the world because of our ability and agility to meet the challenges of a changing world." So, how does the Army use history as it's

• 21:52Greg Jackson?

  preparing soldiers to look to the future, to be ready to meet the challenges of the future?

• 21:57Speaker 02

  Yeah, that manual you're quoting from is a field manual one, which we have a lot of doctrine in the army. It's awesome. It's one of our strengths. That piece is interesting because it is personally written by the chief of staff of the army. He approves all the doctrine, but he's got the pen on that one. And if you're out there in the military or you're interested in your army, that'd be the one manual I'd ask people to read, because it's exactly that. It's why we have an army and what we owe our country and what it means to be a member of that profession. And the fact that it's replete with history is indicative of the value we place on history as an army. To me, if you're trying to figure out the

• 22:38Speaker 02

  future, it's, you know, almost impossible. I mean, it's a worthy endeavor, but it's really about not getting it really wrong more than trying to get it right. It's very hard to predict the future, as everybody knows.

• 22:50Greg Jackson?

  Yes.

• 22:51Speaker 02

  So personally, I believe taking advantage of everything that is knowable, you know, so understanding the history deeply, which, you know, it's not 100% knowable, but it's in the 90s, especially if you're on a topic that's, it's well researched, well written on, or, you know, some period of time that's well documented, or humans that kept good memoirs. So, you know, why would you not, you know, I would be irresponsible professionally to not have a deep understanding of not just military history, but history in general.

• 23:24Greg Jackson?

  I love hearing you say that it would be irresponsible to not know the history.

• 23:27Speaker 02

  No, it would absolutely be professionally irresponsible. I mean, history is, one of the reasons our army is as good as it is, is we invest heavily in military education, leader development, and our schools and education are replete with history. Our manuals, I'm sure you know this, but for our listeners out there, 250th birthday of your army, 14 June this year. Which is interesting. If you've ever seen the army flag, it's got seventeen seventy-five on it.

• 23:58Greg Jackson?

  Yep.

• 23:59Speaker 02

  And one of the things we point out, not in a boastful way, but very proudly, is we had an army before we had a country. And you know, the army put our country on its feet and kept it there. And we're getting ready to celebrate two hundred and fifty years of that. So, you know, you show up for basic training in the army, you're not going to go to bed that night before hearing some part of our history. And we have that. Me personally, so I'm a little bigger headquarters. I don't have a giant staff, you know, dozen or so, but I, one of my most valued direct reports is, is a PhD in military history. We have a wonderful young, young teammate on our team that is a, a school-trained, professional, library science archivist,

• 24:41Speaker 02

  you know, whose job is to make sure that we know what we, there is to know about topics that are important. So it's in our DNA. And not just army history, but military history and the history of the world.

• 24:53Greg Jackson?

  Lessons to be learned regardless of what flag one's fighting under, right? You've said, "Train for the known, educate for the unknown." I think you've kind of, even in those last comments, you articulate some of what you're getting at, but

• 25:07Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 25:08Greg Jackson?

  Would you mind kind of further expounding? How does education get to the unknown?

• 25:13Speaker 02

  Yeah, I do say that a lot. You know, if you know you're going to have to do something, then we're very good at training for that task. But war has a funny thing of being incredibly unpredictable once it gets going. So educating for the unknown is about learning how to learn. It's about being passionately curious. It's about being intellectually humble. How to think, not what to think. We have a huge advantage as a US Army in that our number one thing that we focus on is our people. So we have an all-volunteer force, which comes at a much higher aptitude levels, say, than conscript. You know, we're very proud of the fact

• 25:51Speaker 02

  that we have an all-volunteer force. We have a professional non-commissioned officer corps, and the time and energy we put into leader development for our leaders and commanders lets us do different things on the battlefield. So we don't issue orders. Our soldiers don't sit around waiting to be told what to do. They make decisions. You know, they follow orders, but in the absence of orders, they operate under the intent of the mission. And that's something that is a superpower inside a formation. And it's underpinned by making sure that people know how to think critically, that they're well-educated. You know, going back to history, you know, if you're going to go somewhere and fight,

• 26:33Speaker 02

  you probably ought to know everything there is to know about the history of that place and people in that place. And that usually brings you back to reading history.

• 26:43Greg Jackson?

  You know, as you say that, my mind, and I'd love your reaction to this. My mind goes to George Washington trusting Nathaniel Greene to basically just take care of the South, sends him down. This is you. My mind goes to Lincoln trying to find a commander that he could really trust. And, you know, it took a number of tries and Grant finally really worked out. Pershing, World War I, the man loved his rifles a little too much, but, you know, was able to turn the corner as tanks were coming in there at the end. And I guess as all that, you know, goes through my mind, clearly there's a legacy in the US military of trusting people down the chain to be able to make some decisions. Do you think that there's a particular point where that really happened?

• 27:27Greg Jackson?

  Or is that a George Washington example that has been pretty uniformly followed? Any thoughts?

• 27:33Speaker 02

  I have never thought through the origin of that idea. You can go back as far as the, you know, beginning of the United States Army and find that characteristic in great leaders. Gettysburg, you know, Chamberlain at Gettysburg. So I'd have to unpack that. I don't know if it's in our DNA. Our birth was like throwing off the yoke of people telling us what to do and being free.

• 27:57Greg Jackson?

  True, right?

• 27:58Speaker 02

  You know, that might be the case. And, and, you know, I'm not, I'm not just cheerleading. I mean, there are people that have exercised initiative and made really big mistakes.

• 28:07Greg Jackson?

  Of course.

• 28:08Speaker 02

  And the ability to underwrite honest mistakes is something that fosters that kind of environment. And, and, you know, we have people that don't practice it as well as others. I mean, there's, we've all bumped into people that. Didn't get the memo about trusting people and tend to micromanage, but the ecosystem and you know, they, they don't do well in the army if they don't have the ability to trust and empower subordinates.

• 28:32Greg Jackson?

  Right.

• 28:33Speaker 02

  You know, Sherman and Grant, it's like the dudes were on a group chat every night, you know, except for they couldn't talk to each other, you know? I mean, uh, the, you know, pre-continuous communication when it was a necessity to trust people, not just to make decisions in the absence of guidance, but to make the decisions you would have made if you were standing next to them. That's really the, the superpower.

• 28:57Greg Jackson?

  Right. Well, and then to, so I would imagine those beneath you in the chain, when they make those decisions.

• 29:05Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 29:05Greg Jackson?

  Whether they actually turn out to be precisely what you would have wanted or not, that there's got to be a piece of that, right?

• 29:11Speaker 02

  Yeah, I mean, you, you can delegate the authority to make a decision. You don't delegate the responsibility for the decision. So, training and developing people to operate that way is in everybody's interest.

• 29:22Greg Jackson?

  You know, I think about Washington, who is, those of us who've studied the history, know he's a great leader. He's, he's not the per se greatest general in terms of battles won, but he's a man who knew how to learn from those losses and those who were underneath him were inspired by him. My friends, if you need a refresher on the leadership of the first commander in chief of the army, General George Washington, I invite you to check out HTDS Revolutionary War Episodes, particularly number eight, which covers George's year of hard knock lessons on the battlefield in 1776. We'll be right back with more from my conversation with General Rainey after this short break.

• 30:13Greg Jackson?

  Let's talk about the interwar period. Why don't we go there? Since that's where history that doesn't suck is currently at. I'll set it up a little bit. The army at the time has basically gone back to where it was pre-World War I in a number of ways. Before World War I, we were ranked the number 17th in the world and we're back To that number 17th ranking as we hit the eve of World War II. Obviously, night and day difference from the 21st century US Army. And I imagine, well, it's my experience in the classroom, a lot of my students, they do not grasp that the world they know in which the United States is this top military, that the way it's been their entire lives. That's only been since World War II and on that that we've continuously been in that space.

• 30:57Greg Jackson?

  What would you say are the biggest distinctions or lessons, things that you would pull out of the 20s and 30s?

• 31:05Speaker 02

  And I should have done a safety briefing upfront. I am a passionate consumer of history. I'm not a certified professional historian. I'm a infantry officer by trade. I've always loved history and I read voraciously and have always used it to kind of, you know, catch up for gaps in my education before I came to value it later in life.

• 31:27Greg Jackson?

  But that's how a lot of people go. That's all right, General.

• 31:31Speaker 02

  But what, so I'll answer your question, but a little bit different. So interwar periods. So if you're trying to figure out the future and how to transform an army, how to build an army, which has been not just my job now, but a couple of the last jobs I've had have been primarily that. I believe the most informative periods to study are in fact the interwar periods. You know, adaption in combat or, you know, there's lots of things that happened during the wars. But the most interesting, useful, informative periods of time, in my opinion, are in fact the times in between wars and what our army did. Two of them come to mind, the period between World War I and World War II.

• 32:14Speaker 02

  And really the 30s, late 30s, if you're trying to hone in. I don't want to drop, name drop a whole bunch of books, but there's a great book called Freedoms Forge. That's the story of how the United States brought its industrial might to bear. We knew the war was coming before the war. Roosevelt, Knutson, you know, captains of industry, which is as much responsible for us winning the war as anything else. So how we did that is kind of interesting now because what are we talking about now? You know, the defense industrial base, the American industrial base, can we rapidly manufacture? Could we move to a war footing? There's a lot to be said.

• 32:57Speaker 02

  And then the other one is as the United States came out of Vietnam up to Desert Storm and then to Desert Storm to OAF1 type timeframe.

• 33:07Greg Jackson?

  Which to define that is 1990 Desert Storm or the first Iraq war to the 1999 NATO air campaign in Yugoslavia known as Operation Allied Force or OAF1.

• 33:17Speaker 02

  So how do we take an army coming out of a dark, dark period and turn it into the premier fighting force, modernized our people, our equipment, move to an all volunteer force? So books like Prodigal Soldier, Real Soldiering, there's a couple of great pieces in there.

• 33:37Greg Jackson?

  We'll add links to those books in the episode notes for listeners.

• 33:39Speaker 02

  And then studying the leaders, because every successful modernization, transformation effort that I'm aware of, you can kind of associate it with a human being, you know? So throwing around terms and organizations and industry did this and Congress did that, military did that is less useful than Admiral Rickover, you know, John Boyd, Oppenheimer. I mean, like the humans who did it and studying them. So I don't know if that answered your question, but I didn't know you were currently in an inter-war period phase, but that's a good place to be, I think.

• 34:15Greg Jackson?

  Well, if I can maybe drill down just a little bit more on that, we've just done a number of episodes on the Hoover Dam, Golden Gate Bridge, you know, a lot of infrastructure that's being built despite the fact that we're in the depths of the Great Depression. And as you know, as my listeners will soon be hearing, the arsenal of democracy, to quote FDR, is a major component of the United States, you know, of the Allies winning World War II. I'm not in the habit of quoting Joseph Stalin on the regular, but you know, he, I believe, he said, what was it? The war was won by British brains, American brawn and Russian blood. And I always kind of took the brawn. On to mean really American industry. So this arsenal of democracy, right?

• 34:58Greg Jackson?

  These companies in the US that are cranking out just incredible numbers of planes, tanks, you name it, we're not only arming the United States, we're arming our allies. In fact, my grandfather, Grandpa Jackson, he was in the Persian Command during World War II. He spent the war moving US war material up to our then Russian allies. So this stuff, it hits home for me even. Is there anything in particular about all of that production in the 30s that you either find particularly interesting or you you think about in terms of the present?

• 35:36Speaker 02

  Absolutely. So starts with the president realizing we weren't at war, but it was indications and warnings, it was crystal clear, there was a sense of urgency. You know, Congress supporting the president's efforts with money, right? Because that matters. But but the big thing to me is these companies that did that were not defense, you know, they weren't, it wasn't a big defense prime industry. They were the great companies, Ford Motor Company, GM, Goodyear. They just bent that capacity to a war footing and were able to give way together, the unity of effort across the country to do that. And there's people that, you know, we have a more of a service-based economy

• 36:21Speaker 02

  versus the manufacturing-based economy we had now. There's a lot of talk about manufacturing capacity, human capital. I'm a little more optimistic on on American people in time of crisis. You know, it would be, it would not be smart to underestimate America's ability to do something if it was existential. I don't think there's a limit on what we could do. You know, the the materials, stockpile materials, can you do it? The amount of sanctuary they had, you know, we weren't fighting in the continental United States. That may or may not be true next time we fight, depending on who we're fighting. So it's a complicated problem. The big takeaway is they got going. You know, they didn't wait until the war started. It was early leaning into it.

• 37:05Greg Jackson?

  Hence Futures Command, thinking about what's coming.

• 37:09Speaker 02

  Yeah. Yeah. It's not just Futures Command. I mean, the army's crystal clear. I mean, going back to the Army Transformation Initiative, it's really about, a big giant part of it is, is looking at the things we have and that we were planning on buying and saying, okay, these aren't the things we're going to need based on the changes over the last 24 months in warfare. And stopping spending, we take very seriously the stewardship of the resources we're given by the taxpayers and by Congress. So with the money we have, we got to buy different things. We got to buy them faster. We got to buy them differently. And to do that, we got to free up some money. So there's a clear sense of urgency and understanding that getting going.

• 37:52Speaker 02

  There's a great book, America's First Battles. I'm sure you've read it. You know, we kind of got a track record in the US of not having a great entry into conflict. You know, the first fights don't go great. And our, our superpower has always been, okay, didn't go great. What do we learn? What do we need to do? Fix it, fix it. And then, you know, counterattack. You can call it an assumption. I would say it is a fact, but it's at least a pretty, really, really solid assumption. Is there's not going to be a chapter of that book about losing the first fight in the next war and then recovering from it. I mean, we are not going to have that luxury. And even if we did, we don't believe in sacrificing our most, most valuable talent

• 38:34Speaker 02

  to learn some lesson that was knowable. So the whole point to me of that period of time is the whole country, the whole military, the whole army needs to be doing everything we can at the fastest possible speed to continue to deter our enemies, to prevent a war that nobody wants. But if it happens, we're going to have to win fast.

• 38:53Greg Jackson?

  So General, let's go ahead and lean into that a little bit. We've talked some history. As, as I said, you know, I do teach this national security program and you've really got my, my interest piqued. Now I'll take advantage of your mind a little bit while I've got you. If in the 30s, it was about production and not that that won't be and isn't a component in the 21st century. What do you think are perhaps things that maybe the general public isn't seeing or kind of taking for granted that we need to be worried about? Or, you know, is that AI perhaps? Or what are those unknown variables that, to get back to your philosophy, right? Train on what you know and educate for the unknown.

• 39:27Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 39:27Greg Jackson?

  What should we be looking at right now?

• 39:29Speaker 02

  Well, for our citizens, of which we are all, you know, part of, you know, the importance of service. If you look at the history of our country, it has been replete with the idea that, you know, we're very, very privileged to live here and that freedom is not guaranteed. It's, you know, it's every generation to every generation, the responsibility to pass it on. And we have an incredible privilege of living in the freest country in the world. And that's underpinned by the idea that people should do something with their life that is of value beyond just them. It doesn't mean, you know, everybody has to put on a uniform. It's not for everybody. But, uh, you know, serving in your community, coaching sports, teaching public school, being

• 40:14Speaker 02

  in law, you know, first responder, law enforcement, nursing, small business, job creation. You know, that is something I would, I'm not sure that everybody, as busy as we all are, understands that the idea that doing something with your life that is bigger than you and helping your fellow citizens is a gigantic part of us having what we have. That's a little more ethereal, but, uh,

• 40:41Greg Jackson?

  Yeah, but I agree with you.

• 40:43Speaker 02

  But, yeah, and, and supporting the men and women who do serve, uh, which, which is very good. I think on the more technical thing is the world is changing at an unprecedented pace, you know, to state the obvious, but in, in the terms of the military, we are probably at the most disruptive period of time in the history of military affairs. The closest I could come would be that pre-World War II, you know, people are inventing tanks and airplanes and radios. You know, there've been some smokeless powder and, you know, the railroad, the telegraph, the precision munitions more recently. And there've been some giant revolutions in the history of warfare.

• 41:25Speaker 02

  But, uh, we are, we are absolutely in the midst of one right now. And, and what's different this time is there's no, all those times it was about a big disruption and then people. People figured it out and then, you know, boom. This one is unknowable. I mean, no one is ever going to wake up and go, okay, I figured out the UAV problem. Or I figured out autonomy. Or, okay, we're good on AI for the next decade. I mean, it is a perpetual. So, so the disruption is unprecedented in terms of magnitude. But more concerning is it appears to be constant and with no, no end in sight. So paying attention to what happens with AI.

• 42:07Speaker 02

  You know, whether you're, you're government officials or citizens or in the business world or in the military world. So, you know, the nexus of AI and synthetic biology, you know, agentic AI and humanoid robots. I don't know what's going to happen, but the best AI people I know that I talk to, I think are the best in the country. Will tell you, you know, we're like six months at a time figuring this out. The Moore's law for AI appears to be in the, you know, it's doubling in capability with no, no insight.

• 42:38Greg Jackson?

  Yeah, we are recording this in 2025. And as you pointed out, this is the 250th anniversary of the army. We're also 80 years out from World War II. Both of these significant milestones, anniversaries. You know, are they resonating with, uh, within the ranks? What's the army doing to reflect upon?

• 43:00Speaker 02

  Yeah, um, well, I just got a note from one of our great division commanders, Dave Gardner, who's commanding the 101st. He's over in Normandy right now to celebrate the 81st anniversary.

• 43:14Greg Jackson?

  I mean, I will note, we are two days away from D-Day. That makes perfect sense. Yeah. As of the time of this recording.

• 43:20Speaker 02

  Yeah, and I think, you know, if you, you could never pick the one point in the history of the army that was the highlight. You know, we're a highlight reel. We keep America free for 250 years. So, but that's up there, you know, and, and the greatest generation, you know, the leaders. Not, not just the famous generals, but you know, Dick Winters and, you know, Audie Murphys. I mean, it is. With citizen soldiers through professional soldiers, NCOs, volunteers, draftees, men, women, you'd be hard pressed to find a finer example of the United States of America manifested victory in World War II.

• 44:02Speaker 02

  The 250th birthday is, you know, that, that, you know, more cowbell on that, you know, 250 years, and we're very, very proud of that in the Army. You know, we fight as a joint force. We don't compete with the other services. We don't compete with other great institutions. You know, we're just proud of being the dominant land force in the world with all of our joint teammates. But 250 years of excellence, you know, we've been big, down, good, bad, but steady, constant. This we'll defend. You know, that's, that's our motto, right? So we believe in the Constitution, you know, we swear an oath to the Constitution.

• 44:41Speaker 02

  And in our recent history, it's 100% volunteers doing that on behalf of their fellow citizens. So, yeah, we got a, we got a fair amount of pride about that.

• 44:51Greg Jackson?

  Absolutely.

• 44:52Speaker 02

  I could talk for hours on the interwar period, the way you can take a guy like Fox Conner, I don't know if you're familiar with, who mentored the World War II generals and, you know, Marshall and Eisenhower's relationship, you know, that everybody thinks was just in combat.

• 45:09Greg Jackson?

  Yes, General Conner was part of Blackjack Pershing's staff in World War I.

• 45:12Speaker 02

  You know, reading about how that manifested itself.

• 45:15Greg Jackson?

  Right.

• 45:16Speaker 02

  I say all that to say, we take mentoring and, and, you know, as you get older in this profession, the responsibility to pass that on is something, you know, we take real seriously. So this has been more of an opportunity for me than something, so I appreciate you guys.

• 45:28Greg Jackson?

  Well, thank you, really.

• 45:30Speaker 02

  I hope everybody in America takes a minute to, to celebrate our great Army's birthday and reflect on the privilege of living in this country guaranteed by, by our military.

• 45:41Greg Jackson?

  Well said. Thank you.

• 45:49Greg Jackson?

  Well, my friends, with that, HTDS salutes all who have served and a special thanks to General Rainey's staff for arranging this interview, including Lieutenant Colonel Jamie Dobson and Captain Nick Beavers. If you enjoyed this conversation a lot more, I'd like you to check out the HTDS membership program. Right now, you can hear a bonus story about Fox Connor, whom General Rainey referenced as an important mentor to George Marshall, Dwight Eisenhower, and other pivotal leaders we'll encounter in upcoming World War II narrative episodes of HTDS. HTDS members get extra stories like this one and can listen to all episodes ad-free on the most popular podcast apps like Spotify and Apple. Sign up for a free seven-day trial at htdspodcast.com/members or click the link in the episode notes.

• 46:32Greg Jackson?

  History That Doesn't Suck is created and hosted by me, Greg Jackson. Episode produced by Dawson McCraw with writing and research assistance by Will King and Alan Anderson. Production by Airship. Sound design by Molly Bach. Theme music composed by Greg Jackson. Arrangement and additional composition by Lindsay Graham of Airship. For bibliography of all primary and secondary sources consulted in writing this episode, visit htdspodcast.com.

• 46:59Greg Jackson?

  History That Doesn't Suck is supported by Vistaprint. This podcast is a small business passion project, and seeing our vision come to life offline is cool, too, thanks to our expert partner, Vistaprint. On my recent book tour, we were able to order custom, high-quality banners for book readings. It also added a nice professional polish. It also made the events more memorable because readers and I could pose together in front of the banner for selfies to post online. And that's just one of the countless premium products Vistaprint offers to elevate your brand identity. From postcards and posters to tumblers and t-shirts, Vistaprint makes high-end, custom printing accessible to everyone, giving you exceptional quality and results that make every single dollar go further. With real people on standby and seamless tools, Vistaprint guides you through every

• 47:42Greg Jackson?

  step of the process so you always look completely polished. There's a reason over 17 million small businesses trust Vistaprint to elevate their vision. Vistaprint. Print your possible. Right now, new customers get 20% off with code NEW20 at Vistaprint.com. That's 20% off at Vistaprint.com using code NEW20.

• 48:10Greg Jackson?

  HTDS is supported by fans at htdspodcast.com/membership. My gratitude to you kind souls providing funding to help us keep going, thank you. And a special thanks to our patrons whose monthly gift puts them at producer status. Adam Goran, Ahmed Chapman, Amy and Ross Hensman, Andrew Nissen, Andrew Sherwin, Anna M. Huta, Art Lang, Baby Nico, Bob Stinnet, Bonnie Brooks, Ryan Gavigan, Ryan Boils, Ryan Goodson, Bruce Hibbert, Kayden Howitz, Charles Clendenin, Charles Starkey, Charlie Majes, Christopher Merchant, Christopher Lyle, Christopher Pullman, Christopher Young, Cody Brown, Colleen Martin, Colin Ferris Pennington, Connor Hogan, Craig Burrhost, Dan G., Daniel

• 48:51Greg Jackson?

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• 49:32Greg Jackson?

  Jordan Corbett, Joseph Curry, Joshua Steiner, Julian Wright, Justin Tolman, Karen Bartholomew, Carl Friedman, Carl Romer, Ken Culver, Kim R., Kimberly Pruitt, Kristen Pratt, Kyle Decker, L. Paul Goringer, Laura Norman, Lawrence Neubauer, Linda Cunningham, Mark D. Worle, Mark Ellis, Marcia Smith, Mason Glenn, Matt Siegel, Michael Longest, Michael Sullivan, Nick Caprell, Nicholas Powell, Owen W. Sedlak, Paul Huguenroth, Philip May, Randy Keen, Rich Ruckel, Rick Brown, Rob Dravovic, Robert Shelton, Rock Day, Ryan Fogelman, Sam Holtzman, Sarah Prescott, Sarah Traywood, Scott Hurst, Shane Smith, Shannon Hoagland, Sharon Feasen,

• 50:13Greg Jackson?

  Sean Baines, Sean Collins, Stacy Ritter, Steve Williams, The Creepy Girl, Thomas Churchill, Thomas Matthew Edwards, Thomas Sabbath, Tim and Sarah Turner, Todd Curran, Tom Bostovka, Travis Cox, Walter M. Ames, Wesley McKee, William Durham, William Curry, William Thompson, and Zach Jackson. Join me in two weeks, or I'd like to tell you a story.