550. Will Farage's Extreme Wealth Be His Downfall?

How has Farage become the highest earning MP, while still claiming to be “for the everyday Briton”? Has Farage become part of the establishment? And how much more is there to discover about Farage’s £5 million "gift"? Join Alastair and Cat Neilan, journalist at the Observer, as they answer all these questions and more. To hear the whole of "Who Funds Reform?", sign up here at therestispolitics.com __________ Enjoy Rory and Alastair’s interview with Malcolm Turnbull by searching ‘Leading’ on Spotify, Apple, or YouTube. The TRIP+ summer sale is ⁠⁠HERE⁠: Get an annual membership for an extra 20% off with code SUMMER26. That's ad-free listening, every bonus episode, and full access to our exclusive members' series. Sale ends August 31st, so grab it before summer's over. Go deeper into the world of The Rest Is Politics by signing up for our free newsletter ⁠HERE⁠, featuring exclusive interviews, analysis and weekend reads from Alastair and Rory. The Rest Is Politics is powered by Fuse Energy. Stop overpaying for energy. Switch at ⁠fuseenergy.com/politics⁠ and get a free TRIP+ subscription. Get our exclusive NordVPN deal here ➼ ⁠nordvpn.com/restispolitics⁠ It's risk-free with Nord's 30 day money back guarantee ✅ __________ Instagram: ⁠@restispolitics⁠ Twitter: ⁠@restispolitics⁠ Email: ⁠[email protected]⁠ __________ Social Producer: Celine Charles Video Editor: Josh Smith, Kieron Leslie, Caroline Kaye Producer: India Dunkley General Manager: Tom Whiter Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Alastair Campbell?

  Just this week, Nigel Farage declared his biggest single payment yet as an MP. £270,000 for 12 hours of work from a gold bullion dealer. That works out at £22,500 an hour, which is double what the same company paid him just nine months earlier. And it comes not long after Nigel Farage was found and accepted £5 million as a gift from a crypto billionaire who lives in Thailand. This is the man who built his entire political career on being the voice of ordinary, left behind Britons. The man of the people, fighting for the people. Now, one of the wealthiest politicians in British history. So how did we get here?

• 0:41Alastair Campbell?

  How has a party supposedly for the ordinary working man and woman ended up attracting money from some of the richest people in the world? And what do they expect in return? We've been inundated with questions following our four-part mini-series on who funds reform. So it's time that we answered some.

• 1:01Rory Stewart?

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• 1:48Alastair Campbell?

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• 2:03Rory Stewart?

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• 2:05Alastair Campbell?

  And I must thank NordVPN because on my Grand European Tour with Fiona, I was away from the Hawthorns for West Bromwich against Burnley, but I managed to watch it. There you go.

• 2:18Rory Stewart?

  I actually had a NordVPN thank you. I was in the new Starbucks here in Creve and of course the thing flashed up saying this is an unsecured public network. And I was able to go to my VPN and it was a little reminder of something we often forget when we're all those cafes and things, which is actually genuinely people can do all kinds of weird cyber attacks and spying if you don't have a virtual private network when you're sitting in that Starbucks.

• 2:42Alastair Campbell?

  Well, I think you're not already sort of proud of me that I managed to do this? Or should I say Fiona managed to do this?

• 2:48Rory Stewart?

  I'm incredibly proud of you. That's a tech transformation. So to get the best discount off your NordVPN plan, go to nordvpn.com/rusthispolitics. That's nordvpn.com/rusthispolitics. And the link is in the episode description.

• 3:04Speaker 02

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• 3:43Alastair Campbell?

  Welcome to the Rest is Politics with me, Alastair Campbell. And joining me to answer your questions on our member series is Cat Nealan, who was the reporter on the series and who's been following Westminster as a journalist for the past 10 years. So Cat, let's start with these questions on the £5 million gift. Hi, Dee. Are there any journalists still digging into the £5 million gift? Or is there now little else to find out now that Farage has brushed it aside? Taz, has the £5 million donation story hard? Nigel Farage and Reform's brand. Sarah, how much of an impact do you think Farage's £5 million donation will have on Reform's popularity? The reason I just read out three of those, we had tons of questions and people, this £5 million gift, bung, whatever you want to call it, really has broken through. So is there much more to find

• 4:28Alastair Campbell?

  out, Cat? And what do you think the damage, if any, has been to Reform?

• 4:32Speaker 03

  Yeah, hi, Alison, and thank you so much for having me on the show. So firstly, we got a letter from Christopher Harborn's lawyers complaining about various things, but one of them was the fact that we had described it as a donation rather than a gift, even though actually Reform politicians have described it as a donation. So we have scrupulously since kept to the description of it as a gift, that is their words. Taking the questions one at a time, yes, there are definitely journalists still doing, digging around it. Of course, we should all remember that it was only because of the hard work of journalists specifically and Isaac at The Guardian that we even know about

• 5:13Speaker 03

  this, because it was not declared and clearly there was no plan to declare it. So it is a very, very difficult story to, to do because of course it requires knowledge of someone's personal finances and there's not that many sources around it. But since this story has broken, there has been even greater scrutiny on Nigel Farage specifically and Reform more generally, looking at where they're getting their money from. Of course, the question as far unanswered, whether this is the only sum that he received in that sort of period before he became an MP. Interestingly, there are moves

• 5:55Speaker 03

  afoot within Parliament to try and force that issue. So there is a bill currently going through Parliament at the minute, known sort of colloquially as the Elections Bill. The actual title is the Representation of the People Bill, which is not a name that I'm hugely fond of myself. So let's call it the Elections Bill. And there is an amendment that has been put down, which would force MPs to declare

• 6:22Speaker 03

  Sums of money, as yet undetermined what sums, that they had received in the 12 months before becoming an MP, because there are different ways that it could be interpreted. Most people do think that he has fallen foul of the code of conduct. And this investigation currently being carried out by the Standards Commissioner. Many people feel that will actually find that he should have declared it. And that may force the issue and force him to declare more. But if not, there is this legislative move also being pursued to do that. And that is perhaps one of the more straightforward ways to get more of that information out.

• 7:05Speaker 03

  And of course, we saw last week Nigel Farage pop his head up above the parapet for the first time in a very long time, pretty much one of the first times he's taken questions since the five million pounds was reported. And he was very brittle. He kept saying, it's nobody's business, it's nobody's business what I spend it on.

• 7:24Alastair Campbell?

  Nobody cares, nobody cares, nobody cares.

• 7:27Speaker 03

  Nobody cares, I can spend it on cars if I want to, I don't even have to spend it on security, which also kind of highlighted another issue that I have been kind of picking up from speaking to various people around Nigel Farage, working in the party, which is that they are conscious that he has increasingly, under pressure, been shown himself to be quite thin-skinned. So people might remember when the antisemitism allegations were made about him, his response to that was very combative, very aggressive, particularly towards female journalists. And I know that at least one Reform MP actually apologised to the female journalist in question

• 8:10Speaker 03

  because he felt so kind of ashamed, I suppose, at the way that Nigel Farage had responded.

• 8:15Alastair Campbell?

  I think a lot of this is learnt from Trump. A lot of Nigel Farage and Reform's strategy is very, very Trumpian. And it works up to a point for Trump. My big hope is that it won't work here, that actually people don't like it when he shows that brittleness. It was interesting, in those interviews, as you say, he went kind of to ground for quite a while, he was clearly avoiding the media. Normally, you know, he'll turn up the opening of an envelope as long as there's a camera there. And he was particularly brittle with the female. Journalist, it was Sally Nugent on the BBC, I felt in particular, and then even Julia Hartley-Brewer is normally a sort of big flag waver for Nigel Farage. He was doing that nobody cares thing. And the Trump, you know, Trump basically says, nobody cares about this stuff.

• 8:56Alastair Campbell?

  He's actually on record as saying that, you know, effectively saying, I can be more corrupt in the second term because I realised nobody cared about it in the first term. Now, do you think we care more and is your sense that the parliamentary authorities care sufficiently for this to kind of go the full course? And possibly even create a by-election?

• 9:15Speaker 03

  It's interesting speaking to some of the people that were involved in the Boris Johnson Partygate inquiry, because that is probably the most recent big standards inquiry that we had. And although a very different issue, the people that worked on that and and some people that had worked on other cases do feel that not only that has he broken the code of conduct, but the size of the sum and the period in which it was given are are such kind of huge, strong factors that the suspension that may be recommended would be enough to trigger a by-election. But that said, I did go down to Clacton on Friday, hottest day of the year, lots of people out on the seafront.

• 10:00Speaker 03

  And many people in Clacton had not heard about it.

• 10:05Alastair Campbell?

  Wow.

• 10:05Speaker 03

  Interestingly, even when I explained the story to them, many people said, that's disgusting, he's a thief, what a hypocrite, all the kind of responses that I think many people, regardless of their political persuasion, would have to that kind of story. But then you say to them, well, if there is a by-election, would it change your perspective? Would it change the way you vote? And actually, at best, I got was people saying they were on the fence. And when they were on the fence, it was more about his failure to do things locally rather than this five million. And I think the problem is that for many people, politicians, politics feels so far away.

• 10:49Speaker 03

  And they do feel sort of a plague on all their houses. Everyone is bad, everyone is at it. But I I kind of like him a bit more than I like everyone else, or I hate him least of all. And so that is the sort of prevailing kind of worldview of the people at Clacton that I spoke to.

• 11:06Alastair Campbell?

  But if you look at this, like, we're recording this on Tuesday, and the Financial Times has broken a story today. Reform UK leader Nigel Farage has declared his biggest single payment as an MP. Two hundred and seventy thousand pounds from a bullion dealer, doubling his fee from twenty twenty five. I mean, surely eventually it gets through to people that this guy who presents himself as a man of the people, fighting for them, fighting for the poor and downtrodden and those who have been left behind. He's absolutely minting it as an MP. He is by some distance the best paid outside earner in Parliament.

• 11:41Speaker 03

  Yes, and that's before we even get to the sums that we don't know about. We've been obviously tracking his payments for a very long time. We have a tool called the Westminster Accounts, which collates all of the data. And you can see from that that this company, Direct Bullion, has actually given Nigel Farage six hundred and eighty five thousand pounds since last election. That's not actually his biggest employer. GB News paid him about a hundred thousand more than that so far. But if you look at it in terms of the hours that he spends working for Direct Bullion, I actually did a piece last year, and even then he was better paid than top flight Premier League footballers.

• 12:23Speaker 03

  So you can see just sort of how much people are getting for their money. And I actually interviewed the boss of this company last year because I wanted to put that exact question to him. You know, what do you think you're getting for the money? It was an interesting conversation. He was very forthcoming. He seems to think that the business is doing better because of the brand ambassador that Nigel Farage offers. But he also said something which I thought was quite telling, which was that whenever he calls, Nigel answers the phone. And that's helpful if you're running a business, but it's also helpful if you're looking ahead to the possibility that he might be the Prime Minister at some point.

• 13:05Speaker 03

  And the other thing that's worth noting about this guy, Paul Withers, is that he's also behind the company Stack BTC, which Nigel Farage is also involved in. Quateng linked crypto treasury company. And even people around Nigel Farage are starting to get a little bit wary of his involvement with things like this because they worry that it in their view muddies the waters between what they see as a sort of genuine policy belief that he he advocates for crypto as a kind of leveler and a sort of way of of breaking away from the establishment

• 13:44Speaker 03

  versus being seen to be sort of privately motivated uh because he he's making money out of it. So some of the people around Nigel see that, not necessarily himself. But of course, as he always used to say, there's no money in politics, certainly not if you're straight. But also kind of going back to that trip to Clacton when I was speaking to people in his constituency. What was really clear to me was that they didn't hugely mind about the five million pounds from Christopher Harborn. They put it in the same kind of vein as the free glasses and suits that Keir Starmer got right at the start of his time in power uh that sort of dominated the news for a very long time.

• 14:28Speaker 03

  And it doesn't matter necessarily that the sums involved are so different. But to many of the people that I spoke in Clacton, there was very much a sense that, oh, well, they're all in it together. All the politicians are are just trying to make a quick buck, you know, kind of fair play to him for making more out of it. I do think that it's more symptomatic of how people feel about politics as a whole rather than politicians as individuals. But that being said, it's pretty clear that on a national level, things are slowing down for them. So there was a YouGov poll out this morning showing that they were down one percentage point.

• 15:11Speaker 03

  Labour were up a couple of percentage points. But that being said, Reform is still leading in the polls. Tories and Labour now are both on twenty percent. They are narrowing slightly, of course, you know, expected burn and bounce, but that drop. From reform, may well be a little bit to do with this five billion pounds, to do with how he behaves when he's on interviews and to do with a sense that perhaps maybe they've hit the ceiling, maybe people didn't like the way that he reacted to the Henry Novak case, there was a sense from some people that he'd kind of crossed a line. And so perhaps we are sort of seeing the beginnings of of a kind of plateauing or possibly a decline.

• 15:55Alastair Campbell?

  Um, I mean, I I felt for some time that he's hit the peak, but I, you know, I'm always conscious of the the possibility that's wishful thinking. And so, for example, the Henry Novak, you know, murder that he immediately tried to weaponise in the way that he did, that reminded me of Trump and the Charlottesville, there are good people on both sides. The money stuff, nobody cares, reminds me of of Trump constantly sort of saying, whatever the big scandal is, you know, nobody's talking about that, where I go, they're talking about A B C. So he's doing the same thing. I think you're right that he's dropping a little bit because of it. I also think people don't like when politicians seem to be making sort of ever changing excuses. And this question from Andrew, one line of questioning I've not seen when trying to

• 16:37Alastair Campbell?

  hold Nigel Farage to account is to make the point that if he becomes Prime Minister, he'll receive armed diplomatic protection for the rest of his life, in which case it follows he won't need this money for security. Surely he needs to be asked, if you become Prime Minister, will you return the five million pound gift to Christopher Harborn? And I think we know what his answer will be, he'll go and buy, you know, several hundred Ferraris, but did, do you think, I think his problem this is that nobody believes. I don't know anybody who believes that that's the case. I mean, the other thing which I find genuinely offensive, in the week, the 10th anniversary of Joe Cox murder, Labour MP who was literally murdered during the Brexit referendum campaign 10 years ago, that Farage goes out and says he needs this security because he's the most attacked politician in the country.

• 17:21Alastair Campbell?

  He's actually in his own ways, he, you know, he's, he's popular with a certain section of the of the population. So I just think that these constantly shifting excuses, it was a gift, it was, there was no strings attached. I don't know anybody who gives somebody five million without wanting something in return, even if it's unspoken.

• 17:39Speaker 03

  So the week that the story was reported, you you will probably remember, Alistair, what happened was The Guardian went to him for a right of reply, gave him two days to come back to them. And in that period, he went to The Telegraph with a sob story about how one of his homes had been firebombed, there'd been an arson attack. And what we've actually since reported at The Observer is that the police investigated it as a possible burglary, not as an arson attack. So even that story didn't kind of stand the test of scrutiny for a couple of days. And since then, we've had lots of different reasons given, of course, one of them being as it was a reward for his campaigning for Brexit. And then the series of interviews that he gave last week saying, it doesn't matter what I spend it on, I can spend it on what I like.

• 18:24Speaker 03

  I mean, theoretically, that is true. What he's being investigated for is not what are you spending it on, it's whether he should have declared it or not. And the only people that can really make up their mind as to whether or not they are happy with what he's spending this five million pounds on, if we ever find out. Are the people of Clacton. That's why it's so important that the message kind of gets to those individuals and not just to the sort of same group of people that already have decided what they think about Nigel Farage.

• 18:55Speaker 02

  Hmm.

• 18:55Speaker 03

  But this is also, you know, the more that we can do to kind of shine a light on the various money flowing into him and flowing into Reform. And the more that politicians can ensure that the system that we have is fit for purpose, it's really important because we have for a long time sort of operated in this kind of good chaps theory form of government and and way of of of things being done in a certain way. And one of the things that I think Trump has exposed and before Nigel Farage, Boris Johnson has exposed is that if you don't have sort of quite nailed down rules, if you just go by conventions, then someone can come along and start ripping them up.

• 19:39Speaker 03

  And I think what Nigel Farage is doing to an extent was kind of Kickstarted really by Boris Johnson and Dominic Cummings who came along and were like, well, is it illegal? No. Okay, fine. Then then we can do this.

• 19:51Alastair Campbell?

  Yeah. Look, I agree with you. I think it's terrible and it's unfair that all MPs get tired with the same brush. Of course, the MPs expenses scandal did a lot on that front. And it is on one level absurd to equate Keir Starmer getting a couple of tickets at Arsenal and his free glasses with somebody getting literally five million quid bunged into his bank account. But that is the reality in which we live in a very, very cynical age. But I wonder whether the the fact that it's not just Nigel Farage, so Richard Tice has had issues to do with his taxation. And of course, he he does the same response, you know, nothing to see here, no law broken, all above board, da, da, da. And then, of course, you've got one of their big defectors, Robert Jenrick, has had one or two issues

• 20:33Alastair Campbell?

  to do with his his funding and his financing. I think that as that becomes the prism through which they're being regarded, then I think a change can come further down the track in terms of public opinion. Because if your whole shtick is that you're the kind of, you know, you're the man of the people fighting for the the common man, fighting for the guy who's been, you know, beaten up by the authorities, and suddenly you seem to be like the uber elitist. It's very, very hard for that shtick to hold.

• 21:02Speaker 03

  Yes. And I think also what's important is if you look at where those stories have come from. So the Richard Tice one is a good example because that was actually a Sunday Times investigation or series of investigations. And I think it's sometimes easy for people on the right of politics to say, well, it's The Guardian, it's The Observer, it's the best is politics. You would say that, wouldn't you? But when you have even centre right publications doing it, then people probably realise that it's not a partisan issue as much, and therefore it cannot be ignored, that it is a kind of about having an ethical standard, an ethical red line that people will not cross. I mean, just to go back to the point that you were making about security, it is true to say that although he is very

• 21:47Speaker 03

  popular, Nigel Farage. That he is also very, very disliked, you know, this is not to say that there isn't security issues there, but Parliament offers every MP tailored security according to their needs. And so we, we don't know exactly what went on because Parliament does not comment on specific individual circumstances. But I know from speaking to MPs regularly about the type of arrangements that they have, the fact that the police are really involved in making sure that everything is okay, you know, they might drive past their house, they might drive past their, their loved one's house when they're not even there.

• 22:28Speaker 03

  There is a real consciousness, perhaps too little, too late, that MPs are genuinely at risk from people that would like to do them harm. And so, you know, I think it's difficult to say, but the idea that Parliament would leave anyone in the lurch seems to me to be somewhat implausible.

• 22:49Alastair Campbell?

  Yeah, I mean, I, I also think that there is an element within politics and, and I do see this particularly on the right, where it's almost like a status symbol, that, you know, if you're surrounded by four guys with earpieces coming out of their, you know, their left ear hole, that somehow it makes you look much, much more important. Now, I know, I'm sure that people who, close to Farage will hear that and think, you know, that's outrageous, that's ridiculous. But, you know, I've heard him talk about death threats. I mean, I've had very, very, very many people in politics get death threats. Okay. I can remember not long ago, I was in the same building as Farage. And look, I've worked

• 23:32Alastair Campbell?

  with people who've been under the highest level of, of protection that there is in the, in the British state right now. And I was at this event with Nigel Farage and he had a team of people who came in, they, they were doing the same sorts of things. Now, unless they'd heard something very, very specific about that day, I've got to say, I think it felt very performative to me. And so, you know, and that's why I got so angry about the Joe Cox, you know, him saying that in that week of all weeks, because the truth is, the more you highlight that there are these threats out there, sometimes that actually exacerbates the problem for the many who do not have protection. It's very interesting what you said about Clacton, that they don't like it, but also there wasn't that much awareness, and even when there was awareness, would it shift the

• 24:17Alastair Campbell?

  vote? Not so sure. But bearing in mind that the party at the higher level, with the MPs and the sort of full-time activists and so forth, is there the beginnings of chatter about whether Farage is actually going to see out this parliament?

• 24:33Speaker 03

  Um, I would say not within Reform, the core party. I think most people are sort of still banking on him staying. I think that may be as much to do with the realisation that if he doesn't lead them into the next general election, they will have a much tougher time as it is to do with the reality. But I think, I think it's implausible that Robert Jenrick would not have defected if he didn't think he was going to have a good chance of being leader fairly soon, because he was either going to lead the Conservatives at some point, or lead Reform at some point,

• 25:15Speaker 03

  and perhaps he might think that it was sooner there than than at the Tories. I think that there are growing suspicions from some of the rival political parties that it's maybe getting to him, and that maybe he's, you know, if you think about how long he spent as an outsider, you know, he talks, he's been a campaigner for sort of twenty, thirty years, even when he was an MEP, he was an MEP that sort of revelled in his outsider status. And the idea that, you know, he might finally get into power and his legacy is of yet another failed prime minister, I think.

• 25:59Speaker 03

  It will be giving him pause for thought. Certainly, that's what some people are saying. And so I think there probably is, you know, maybe some suggestion and certainly if the polls continue to either plateau or even go down. Uh, and with this five million pounds sort of circling him, it's it's not inconceivable. That he says, you know what, I've I've done the great job. I've brought us this far. And now I will be the best prime minister you never had, because it will sort of allow him to have a kind of off ramp, as someone described it to me. Without actually being put to the final test. But, you know, we always say this.

• 26:40Speaker 03

  Uh, the sort of draw of power is far stronger than people kind of. Quote unquote, normal people realise. Uh, and so I think it would be a big step for him not to do it, having got this far.

• 26:54Alastair Campbell?

  Well, a question from Bailey. Could reform get support with a different leader or is their success entirely tied to Nigel Farage? I mean, I guess that's what you've been addressing there. He's obviously been worried about the one man ban thing, which is why he has welcomed in people like Jenrick and Suella Braverman and. Nadeem Zahawi and, you know, and and I remember that meeting that I had with him, I remember him telling me that it was before I'd even heard of Zia Yousaf. And he was telling me, I've got this guy coming in, Zia Yousaf, he's really impressive, he's really going to shake things up, et cetera. So he's conscious of that. Do you think they've done polling on the extent to which reform is Nigel Farage? And I wonder what it says.

• 27:30Speaker 03

  I don't know for certain, but I would, I would imagine they have done. I mean, certainly, I think Robert Jenrick has a fairly sort of. Well-established team. He's probably been doing his own polling. He certainly has enough of his own uh donors that. That could, that could certainly be afforded out of his pocket rather than central budget. It's both a blessing and a curse. So when you look at, for example, the local elections and even the Makerfield elections. They were able to bypass spending rules for both of those because they campaigned on a national level rather than on local issues. And that is to them win-win because it means they just passed a Nigel Farage all over their campaign literature.

• 28:13Speaker 03

  And then they don't have to worry about spending limits or even saying how much they have spent on things.

• 28:17Alastair Campbell?

  Is that not being addressed by the elections bill?

• 28:19Speaker 03

  Uh. Again, I think that is something which may have to come through in amendments, but as things stand. Um. And certainly, I don't, I don't think it would be retrospective. Uh. The local election, it's a bit sort of skies the limit and, and, and you can guess how high they went on that. Which is why you had weird things like, I think there was a Welsh newspaper that had picked up that they were advertising about something in London in one of their campaign literatures. So it looks a bit disorganised. But it basically gets the message out, you know, vote reform, vote for change. You know, the, the finer details are maybe not necessarily what everyone's going to pick up on. And you don't have to worry about how much it costs because you've just got five million pounds from a, from a guy in Thailand.

• 29:05Speaker 03

  So they, they are able to sort of pump this stuff out with Nigel Farage's face on it. And not really have to worry too much about the consequences. It does mean that I think there is a, a succession issue. I think Robert Jenrick and possibly Zia Yousaf also sees himself as a, as a successor. I mean, Alistair, I'm sure you watched Question Time last week when Zia Yousaf seemed to suggest that um, he'd been blocked from standing as a candidate. Um. I don't know whether you fell for that one or not. I mean, I'm a bit sceptical myself.

• 29:38Alastair Campbell?

  My usual rule about Question Time is I only watch it if I'm on it. Uh. But I did, I did see, I did see the clip of Zia Yousaf and it looked to me, it was actually the Tory, wasn't it? Uh. Kevin Hollinrate was giving him a hard time about why I never, why I'd never stood. He looked like me, like somebody trying to find a reason to rebut, but I'm, I'm assuming that nobody has confirmed that he was blocked at any point.

• 30:04Speaker 03

  I have been asking some of my reform sources and no one has been able to come up with uh, an, a, a sort of by-election or, or any other seat that he has applied for and been turned down from, but you know, maybe, maybe we'll find the receipts at some point, who knows?

• 30:20Alastair Campbell?

  Then, I mean, none of them, though, if you look at any of them, Richard Tye, Zia Yousaf and Jenrick, I mean, I, who I guess are the most high profile, the ones who are most on television, I would say. Um. I mean, they're not, they're not great, are they? They're not. Nigel Farage, I have to acknowledge, has got something that cuts through to the public. I'm not sure they do.

• 30:42Speaker 03

  It wouldn't be my choice. But it's not really my choice of politics either. And I think, I think Zia Yousaf is another one who doesn't always speak to women with the greatest of respect. Again, I think in Question Time, the way that he spoke about BBC trying to sort of rig the numbers so that it looked as though there were fewer Reform voters and being put very much in his place. You know, it was kind of the first time, I think, that perhaps he'd sort of had that situation, but he was perfectly happy to talk all over the women, Emily Thornbury as well, who were on the panel. You know, to me, watching that as a woman, that doesn't sit well. I don't like it. Robert

• 31:22Speaker 03

  Jenrick and Richard Tice are more respectful, but still, you know, kind of have their moments. And I think the, the, the sort of interesting thing that has been happening with some of the defections as they come over is how they affect the sort of pecking order within Reform and what that does to some of the tensions within the team. So I understand that Zia Yousaf didn't actually talk to Robert Jenrick for about two months after he came over, but I think primarily because he was a Tory and Zia Yousaf clearly does not trust Tories. He thinks that their job is to destroy the Conservative Party. You know, the extent to which there's also a bit of male ego and hierarchy kind of coming into, to play there. I, I would imagine that's probably another, another reason why they

• 32:05Speaker 03

  didn't speak for, for a long time, although I gather they are speaking now.

• 32:09Alastair Campbell?

  Oh, good to know that Jenrick and Yousaf are speaking. That's lovely, lovely news for us.

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• 33:36Alastair Campbell?

  Listen, we've got loads of questions on this one, Kat. Katie Victoria, is it true that Reform is a company, not a political party? And if so, what does that mean? Sarah, how does Reform get away with it being a limited company? What are the rules there?

• 33:51Speaker 03

  Yes, so in reality, it doesn't make a huge amount of difference how it's structured, whether it's a limited company or like other parties, an unincorporated association. They're all bound by the Political Parties, Elections and Referendum Act. So that means that they all still have to declare donations in exactly the same way, regardless of how they are composed. The fact that they are a company means that it's more about the control of direction. It's potentially around if there are any profits. But certainly when it comes to declaring donations and so on, it doesn't, it doesn't really have any bearing on, on that side of things.

• 34:31Alastair Campbell?

  Yeah. You've talked a couple of times about the, you know, the kind of manosphere issues. And I think you're right, Azia Yusuf, I've noticed that as well with him, that he, he seems uncomfortable when he's being quizzed by women. That being said, Ethan Boucher, why do you think so many young people, especially men, are drawn to Reform? Finn, I work with builders in Essex. What's the best way to explain to them that Reform is not for the working class? Look, I meet a lot of working class men who tell me that, you know, Reform... Sort of they're gonna vote reform, they have voted reform. And usually it's in the area, sometimes it is just straightforwardly about, you know, get the immigrants out.

• 35:13Alastair Campbell?

  That is a big part of it, but I think sometimes it's just, look, I've tried Labour or I've tried Tory, sometimes I've tried both. And I just feel that the country's not right, I'm not in a good place, I don't, my life's not that great. And Farage looks like he gets it, that's kind of what I take for what they, but do you think I'm missing anything? Is there anything deeper than that, do you think?

• 35:37Speaker 03

  So I think for the last few years, really since Brexit, the parties, both Labour and the Conservatives, have responded to Nigel Farage in whatever iteration he has existed in, by trying to outdo him or prove that they can be like him. And what we've seen with both the Tories and Keir Starmer has been that they have tried to out Farage Farage and they have not succeeded in doing that. And I think that it was interesting and a breath of fresh air actually to hear Andy Burnham on Monday talk about, you know, what the subtext of what he was saying was effectively defeating populism with a bit of positivity.

• 36:22Speaker 03

  A bit of, a bit of, you know, instead of punching down and saying, you're feeling worse off because of the immigrants and you're feeling worse off because of the scroungers on benefits and whatnot. That actually he was talking about reshaping the economy and redirecting uh some of the, some of the investment into the nations and regions. Now, talking a good talk, all well and good, whether he actually can, can do that is another thing. But that was the first time I felt for a long time that I actually heard a different diagnosis of the problem and a different possible solution. It is going to be really difficult, of course, but I think there is a lot of this kind of populism, both on the right and the left actually, which is post-financial crash.

• 37:08Speaker 03

  Exacerbated by Brexit, exacerbated by inflationary issues from Covid and all the rest of it, people feel poorer and they want to blame someone. And who's the obvious target? Well, it's the immigrants. And so if you kind of allow the politicians, and all of them, right and left, or not all of them, but a majority of them, have have have followed Farage and the others in doing this, then of course, that's what people think that is the solution. But actually, if you present an alternative that is a bit more optimistic, then a lot of people will go for that. And so I am, you know, an optimist that it doesn't have to be this way. Uh, uh, but I, uh, remain on the fence until I

• 37:50Speaker 03

  have seen what the actual, uh, plan is.

• 37:54Alastair Campbell?

  Yeah, I thought it was interesting, though, that in the Make-A-Fill by-election, the, which was obviously a big risk for Andy Burnham, when he looked at the polling at the start, that he didn't really go for the Reform candidate in a way that, you know, I think a lot of Labour's party campaigners have just gone, right, you know, this, this guy's given us so much ammunition. There was lots of stuff being pumped out, maybe on his behalf and for the Labour Party. But Andy Burnham, even when he was on the same platform, the same stage, was very much, you know, with the listen to what he's saying and very, very kind of respectful. Whether he'll be able to do that with Farage and the House of Commons, Rory and I talked about this on the podcast earlier, um, that

• 38:34Alastair Campbell?

  the House of Commons is so constructed and engineered for combat, that whether, if Farage plays his same game, which I suspect he will, um, and Badenoch as well, whether Andy Burnham will be able to hold that sense of trying to do politics in a different, more collaborative way, I don't know. And the point about, um, how to explain that Reform isn't for the working class. I think that's, again, where this money stuff does come in. You know, these are people who look to be doing very, very well for themselves on the back of being politicians. And I think eventually that has to get through. And the other, the other thing for me with the, you know, why they're not for the, for the working class, I'll tell you, they are for, I'd say, they're for Russia.

• 39:19Alastair Campbell?

  You know, this is, this is a party that is, is, we've still not got to the bottom of their links during the Brexit campaign. We've still not got to the bottom of the Russian influence in our, in the hard right of our, of our politics. And so I think that there's lots of different ways that you can, you can go for them. But in terms of explaining to the working class, you basically got to be saying to them, these people are not for you. They do a very, very good job of pretending that they're for you. But look who they're benefiting now, they're benefiting themselves. Kat, you, you mentioned the other parties and I guess the one that maybe is most alarming to Farage is, is Restore and Rupert Lowe. Hope Hunter, is Restore a genuine threat to Reform? Sam, do you think Lowe is a greater threat to Reform, the Conservatives?

• 40:02Alastair Campbell?

  What do you make of the Rupert Lowe situation? I mean, he didn't do as well in Makerfield as he said he was going to, but he's kind of come from nowhere. He's obviously got a lot of money, he's got Elon Musk backing him. There was a point where Farage thought Elon Musk was going to be backing him. Do you agree with Sam that Lowe might be a greater threat to Reform than the Tories?

• 40:22Speaker 03

  I think on a national level, no. But I think what is interesting about Rupert Lowe is that he has some of the same target seats that Reform would have wanted. And actually, just to go back to my visit to Clacton, although people weren't necessarily talking about Rupert Lowe. I think that if there was another party that would stand there, and I know for a fact that if there is a by-election, Restore will stand against Reform. That people might be minded to go for him because we've seen with focus groups and, and. And also, you know, the numbers in various polls, that there is this sense that actually Reform is starting to feel a bit like it's a part of the establishment, whether it is the five million

• 41:04Speaker 03

  or whether it's just a sort of familiarity breeding contempt issue. Um. There are people who now see Nigel Farage and some of his fellow Reform MPs as part of the problem rather than the solution. And so there is this drift towards uh Restore. You know, the the question is not so much about whether or not Restore could could get as many seats as Reform or could threat threaten them in that sense, but just actually taking away enough of their voters that they don't get an overall majority in a given seat is enough. And I appreciate that with Makerfield, it was it was more than the total Andy Burnham won by much more than the total combined Restore and Reform vote. But nonetheless, having that

• 41:50Speaker 03

  eat away at you, and also in the system that we have, having any kind of doubt as to whether or not you might be the the viable second place or first place, does then kind of act as a vicious uh loop against you. So uh there is, it's more than just, could they, you know, are they are they bigger a bigger threat than the Conservatives? But if they pose enough of a threat to the right of of of Reform. And someone actually was saying to me, you know, Restore is doing to Reform what Reform have done to the Tories. And that's also why we've seen a bit of a knee jerk reaction to the Henry Novak case, to the Belfast stabbings,

• 42:31Speaker 03

  where it feels as though things have shifted further rightwards in quite a quick space of time, because they're trying to sort of outdo the threat. It's why we kind of see them talking about grooming gangs. I mean, the the um the candidate, the Reform candidate in the Greater Manchester Mayorty candidate candidacy now, she's talking about grooming gangs. And again, I think that's that's a thing that has really only become an issue because of Restore and because of the pressure that Restore are putting on Reform.

• 43:00Alastair Campbell?

  Interesting. And and I I guess the other thing that. You see through the Nigel Farage life stories, he does seem to have difficulty in maintaining relationships with people who get to be as powerful as he is. I mean Rupert Lowe was elected under the Nigel Farage Reform UK banner. He's gone off, shown that he can do something different. And the other thing, do you think there's any possibility, I mean, I only ask this because I read about it. I don't have any independent knowledge at all, but I read it in one of the newspapers, that Christopher Harborn is actually beginning to rue putting so much money into reform because it doesn't seem to be delivering what he thought at one stage it would. Do you think there's a possibility actually that the

• 43:45Alastair Campbell?

  the big donors start to think, well, this is not going to lead where we thought it was, which was a Farage government?

• 43:50Speaker 03

  I mean, that's always a possibility. I don't have a speed dial to Christopher Harborn, unfortunately. If I did, I probably wouldn't be sat here in a tiny cupboard speaking to you.

• 43:58Alastair Campbell?

  You'd be in a tiny cupboard in Thailand.

• 43:59Speaker 03

  I'd be in a, I'd be in a six-star suite in Thailand, I think, actually.

• 44:06Alastair Campbell?

  Owned by him.

• 44:07Speaker 03

  But what I also saw at the weekend was reports that he is going to, he has come back on to the electoral register here. Instead of being an overseas voter, he's now described as a, as a, as a UK voter and some suggestion that that's how he's going to try and get around what efforts the Labour government is making to try and sort of stamp down on overseas donors. So the other thing is, Alistair, you know, he, he is a multi, multi billionaire. You know, that, that interview with The Telegraph, I thought was unintentionally revealing because he was asked how much he was worth and he couldn't even put a figure on it.

• 44:47Speaker 03

  He doesn't know how many billions he's worth. And so to me, you know, obviously five million is, is an insane amount of money. It's kind of completely changed the game of British politics, but to him, it's just a fraction of his wealth. So he might not be that happy with the direction of travel, but it's certainly money that he can afford to lose.

• 45:06Alastair Campbell?

  My final one, and you know, I think we've done very, very well to get this far with, without talking about Brexit, but I think we have to, because I, this is the thing I, I find extraordinary, that the three, history will basically say that the three big drivers of Brexit were David Cameron with the referendum and Johnson and Farage, because they led the two campaigns that between them pulled it off. Johnson went on to be Prime Minister, as we know, and David Cameron, I think, would accept, and I believe even when in his rare honest moments, Boris Johnson would accept that Brexit has not delivered what those who fought for it said it would. And yet, still, despite all that damage, Nigel Farage is still being talked off as possibly

• 45:50Alastair Campbell?

  being the next Prime Minister. So Gavin Wiggington, why isn't Farage held accountable for the disaster of leaving the EU? Mick Cahill, given the weight of data that now exists about the damage Brexit has done to the economy, shouldn't Labour's obvious strategy be to slip in mention of said damage and Farage's responsibility for it every opportunity? But I'm guessing that the people you were talking to, that you were talking to in Clacton at the weekend, are basically saying, well, he fought for what he believed in and he won, and it hasn't delivered what he said it would because he wasn't in charge of it. How do they rationalise the fact that he's done something which has done damage to their lives? Or do they not see the connection with Brexit at all?

• 46:31Speaker 03

  I'm just trying to think whether the B word came up at all. People were talking about small boats, people were far more exercised about local issues, so potholes, dog mess, people on e-bikes and e-scooters. And that's, again, that's where people, there was frustration, oh, he's just used us as a way to get into power, but he doesn't really care about us.

• 47:00Speaker 03

  In terms of Brexit, in terms of why people aren't using it more, you know as well as I do, Vanessa, there is an intense nervousness in Westminster about doing it because Labour has a very shallow majority, I mean, obviously lots and lots of MPs, but many of them sitting on very, very narrow margins. And they are worried about upsetting the apple cart because a lot of them are hero voters, quote unquote, people that will have voted for Brexit back in the day. So there is, there is that. There is also, I think, probably still for many people in Westminster, their own sort of personal wounds that they carry from having gone through it all.

• 47:41Speaker 03

  Um, and I, and I think the easy answer that Nigel Farage and certainly the people around Nigel Farage give is, well, it's not his fault what happened afterwards because he wasn't in charge. And had he been in charge, of course, he would have made a success of it. We thought they would do better than they did. And so even if you try to sort of get him on that front, there's a, there's a sort of easy answer. It's actually arguably far better to push him on his record as a constituency MP now, or as the leader of a political party in Parliament now than, than Brexit. Because, you know, arguably, and they do argue, he campaigned for something, he achieved it. The, the people that were in charge then made a mess of it.

• 48:25Alastair Campbell?

  Okay, well, I will not give up, but I get that, that that is a lot of what people think. But final point for me, Cat, what, what did you find most interesting about taking the time you did to delve into all this? What, was there anything that particularly surprised you, particularly shocked you? Uh, and what else you that, what was the next chapter in the Farage funding story, do you think?

• 48:47Speaker 03

  So I think that we will find out fairly soon whether he has, um, whether he has fallen foul of the code of conduct. And I think there may well be a further reckoning, as I said at the start, in terms of this legislation, as to whether there was more money given to him in the year or few months before he became an MP. I think that, um, one of the things that I kind of have a little bee in my bonnet about is that he is a shareholder of All Perspectives, which is the parent company of GB News. He does not declare that on his register because, um, he interprets it through one set of rules.

• 49:27Speaker 03

  I think there's another set of rules that could be seen to, to suggest that he should be declaring it. I think it would be very interesting to see how much that's worth. And also to get a bit more detail about where the money for All Perspectives is coming from, from. Because by all accounts, it seems to be a sort of loss-making venture currently that is propping up the party and, and, you know, obviously, uh, You and others have done work around the the number of people being interviewed who are just reform or reform activists. And that is populated by reform people as well, a lot of the people that work on it. So I I am interested in in what comes next in terms of that side of things.

• 50:12Speaker 03

  I think there is still quite a lot of interest in Robert Jenrick's case, which we haven't really touched on yet. But I think that may yet yield some more interesting lines there as well. And so I think, I mean, look, I think that there is probably still quite a wealth of stories, pun not intended, about reform and their funding, which will keep us all very busy for a very long time.

• 50:35Alastair Campbell?

  Well, well done on the series. I've thoroughly enjoyed listening to it and I hope you enjoyed doing it. And this episode that you and I are doing, Cat, is going out to all all who want it. But people have to become members to listen to your series and they do that by going to therestispolitics.com. But I think you're right. I think this is a story that will run and run because I think there's there's something in what they think politics is about and what it's for and the kind of people they're appealing to that I think we're going to see more and more stories about big money and reform. And I hope you'll help us ferret them out. Thanks for all your time.

• 51:13Speaker 03

  I was certainly intending. Thank you.

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