Burning NBA Questions and a “Holy Crap, Charlotte!!!” Deep Dive With Zach Lowe

The Ringer’s Bill Simmons is joined by Zach Lowe LIVE on Netflix right after 76ers-Celtics to react to the game before recapping the NBA slate from the weekend (0:32). Then, they look at the playoff picture, possible All-NBA teams, before ending on a deep dive of the Hornets (51:02). Host: Bill Simmons Guest: Zach Lowe Producers: Chia Hao Tat, Eduardo Ocampo, and Chris Wohlers The Ringer is committed to responsible gaming. Please visit⁠⁠⁠ www.rg-help.com⁠⁠⁠ to learn more about the resources and helplines available. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

  I'm pro football Hall of Famer Brian Dawkins, and I lived for a long time with something I did not know the name of: major depressive disorder. I carried sadness and anger because I thought I could handle it alone, but I couldn't. Now I want to make sure others know that that support is out there. If you're experiencing similar symptoms, talk to a healthcare professional. Visit MDDAllies.com to watch my story.

• 0:25Speaker 01

  Paid partnership with Johnson & Johnson. Brian Dawkins has not prescribed Caplyta lumateperone.

• 0:37Speaker 02

  I needed more from my antidepressant, so my doctor added Caplyta lumateperone, proven to provide greater relief from depression symptoms than an antidepressant alone, building on my progress without starting over. Caplyta is for adults with major depressive disorder when used with an antidepressant and is available by prescription only. Individual results may vary. In clinical trials, weight gain was not common.

• 0:57Speaker 01

  Elderly dementia patients have increased risk of death or stroke. Caplyta is not approved for dementia-related psychosis. Call your doctor about new or sudden mood changes, behaviors, or suicidal thoughts right away. Antidepressants may increase these risks. Report fever, confusion, stiff muscles, which may be life-threatening, or uncontrolled muscle movements, which may be permanent. High cholesterol and weight gain may occur, as can high blood sugar, which may be fatal. Monitoring is recommended. Common side effects are sleepiness, dizziness, nausea, dry mouth, feeling tired, and diarrhea. These aren't all the side effects.

• 1:24Speaker 02

  Ask your doctor about Caplyta. Learn more at caplyta.com or call 888-252-4824.

• 1:30Bill Simmons?

  This episode is brought to you by Carhartt. We spend a lot of time talking about football, the players, the coaches, the big plays, but there's a whole other team we rarely think about, the people who make the game possible, the workers building stadiums, paving parking lots, growing the grass, welding the goalposts, even making the footballs. They're committed to their craft and they're doing the work long before kickoff. Carhartt is proud to outfit those crews. So next time you're watching a game, take a second to appreciate the people behind it. Learn more at carhartt.com/jointhetreads.

• 2:34Bill Simmons?

  It's the Bill Simmons Podcast. We are live Sunday night on Netflix. Zach Lowe is here. On Netflix tomorrow, Zach Lowe, uh, there's gonna be a live rewatchables because it's CR month. Chris Ryan finally got his own month. We're doing Sicario live 6pm ET on Netflix. Um, when you watch Sicario multiple times in the same weekend, it definitely sets the mood. I don't know what mood it is, but uh, I was, I was in a really frisky mood for the Sixers Celtics game. Turned out to be the KDA game, but I really just want to talk about the lady getting kicked in the head on the VJ edge cone play. It, it brings in a lot of courtside questions. The people that bring little like six-year-old kids to sit courtside thinking nothing could ever happen. This to me is a PSA video now.

• 3:17Speaker 04

  I mean, it's crazy that someone got injured worse in this sideline incident than when the Hornets and the Pistons had a brawl that almost spilled into the second row of the stands and everyone was fine. And this poor lady, I think they said her name was Christine or something, got, I mean, she got booted and she's sitting up, she's still sitting there. She's, she's bleeding courtside. She's like, no, I'm good. Like I'm gonna stay in the game. You gotta admire it, but you gotta head on the swivel at all times.

• 3:43Bill Simmons?

  She looked like one of like the Canadian Olympic hockey players just trying to make it to the handshake line. Huge bruise on the side of the face. I couldn't tell if she was looking at the player, if she was looking away and didn't see it, but then the foot ricocheted late, which I don't know how you could predict, but I've been saying this forever. Um, for some reason it took forever in baseball games with foul balls for us to get really concerned about people along the, the third base side, first base side, the line drives. Took a couple of people just getting nailed to be like, oh, we should probably put a net up. I, I still feel like with courtside, we're just playing with fire because you can go to any game and you can see who's sitting there and there's always

• 4:24Bill Simmons?

  one person who's too old and one person who's too young, sit in those seats and it's always in that area, like right three-point line extended where people are trying to either like running out or they're trying to save a loose ball and they just go flying in there full speed.

• 4:39Speaker 04

  Yeah, the baseline seats are far enough back. Those are your safest courtside seats. The sideline seats, you're on the floor and you're right.

• 4:46Bill Simmons?

  You are.

• 4:46Speaker 04

  It's, it could happen at any moment and you gotta be, you gotta be ready. I've always been a hardliner about baseball in the cell phone age or even the pre-cell phone age. If you get hit because you, you're not paying attention.

• 4:58Bill Simmons?

  Right.

• 4:58Speaker 04

  I don't, I mean, if you suffer some sort of traumatic brain injury, I'll feel bad for you, but you're at the game. The tickets say it on the back. Yeah, pay attention, pay attention. I'm teaching my daughter that now and she's a product of like the TikTok cell phone age. Like you, she doesn't have a phone yet, but if we're gonna go to baseball games, you got, you gotta be ready at all times.

• 5:17Bill Simmons?

  You can see it when you go to baseball games. Just look around in like the fourth inning and see how many people are like this. Which is basically why they had to put the nets up. Sixers Celtics. I just want to say these NBC Sunday night games, I think have accomplished their early objective. Which is to make it feel like a bigger game, right? If they show the pregame warmups, they have Lenny Kravitz, they have the John Tesch song. The studio, the crew is there on the court. And it does feel like a bigger game. Like I, I do like what they've done and I, I think it was a good idea. So that's one of the few nice things I'll say about all the weird network schedule stuff we have. Cause I never know what channel is on what game at any time.

• 6:00Bill Simmons?

  Just when I was getting used to the Fridays, that flipped. And now it's like ESPN's on Friday. I, I never know where the games are, but I do like this.

• 6:08Speaker 04

  Somehow the ratings are, are skyrocketing up, even though people say they can't find where the game is. I don't even know how we measure ratings really anymore, but I agree with you. The Sunday night NBC stuff is good. The song, it's always good to hear Roundball Rock. I like Tesh's appearance at the All-Star game. He was bouncing, bouncing the fake ball in tune with the, with the drum line.

• 6:25Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, I like that.

• 6:26Speaker 04

  Uh, and yeah, it felt like a big game tonight.

• 6:29Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, we didn't get Embiid.

• 6:31Speaker 04

  No.

• 6:32Bill Simmons?

  Tatum, um, it feels like it's gonna be Friday.

• 6:37Speaker 04

  Dallas. Okay.

• 6:38Bill Simmons?

  That's, that's what, all signs are pointing to Friday Dallas. I was wondering if it would be this weekend, but by Friday, I think it was not going to be this weekend.

• 6:47Speaker 04

  That's, that's an NBC game as well, is it not?

• 6:50Bill Simmons?

  Might be.

• 6:51Speaker 04

  I think, I think they were talking about their game at the end and obviously they have this Tatum rehab.

• 6:56Bill Simmons?

  Yes.

• 6:56Speaker 04

  Doc U thing they're doing.

• 6:59Bill Simmons?

  I have a couple more notes from this game. VJ Maxx, I'm just automatic veto. I don't like it.

• 7:04Speaker 04

  Thank you. I thought I was the only one.

• 7:06Bill Simmons?

  It's bad.

• 7:06Speaker 04

  I hated it from the beginning and I, I sabotaged probably any deal I'll ever get from TJ Maxx because I hate it. Cause I hate going into TJ Maxx. It's if you, I say this all the time. If you want to buy a lamp, a fake gold plated lamp in the shape of a cat, TJ Maxx has you covered. If you want to buy something useful, TJ Maxx is not for you.

• 7:29Bill Simmons?

  I did a whole thing. Kellerman was on my pod Thursday and I had a mailbag question about, about nicknames, which really peaked in the seventies, eighties and maybe even early nineties. And now we're just flailing. And we, we use initials and acronyms for the most part. And then occasionally when people try to push something, it's something just hacky like VJ Maxx. I just think we need to go back to the drawing board.

• 7:52Speaker 04

  You, this is making me feel so much better because the NBC people say, well, I like VJ Maxx. That's a good one. Like it's, it is. So I guess I'm the only one. No, I'm not. I'm not the only one. You're never alone.

• 8:03Bill Simmons?

  Usually the group player kind of nickname things. TMC with the Warriors in the early nineties later. That worked, but it was also the first initial of each guy's name and it was kind of organic and I liked it. The Jays, I think, even though it's not technically a nickname, but Jalen and Jason calling the Jays. I'm not calling VJ Maxx, VJ Maxx ever.

• 8:25Speaker 04

  No, I feel stupid saying it. I'll take, can I just give you my favorite nickname of all time in the history of sports team or player? It trumps all categories.

• 8:33Bill Simmons?

  What is it?

• 8:34Speaker 04

  This is going to be right up your alley. Fyslamajama. It's the best. It's, it's number one on the nickname scale.

• 8:40Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, and think about that. That was like 43 years ago. We really peaked. We were just better at Nick Dames way back when, which is what I was talking to Max about when we had the Clyde the Glide and those kinds of names. Like, we were just, just had it all figured out. I don't know what happened. This was the Kada game.

• 8:56Speaker 04

  I know.

• 8:56Bill Simmons?

  Ironic, because my dad took my daughter, and my daughter has been the biggest Kada fan for his entire Celtic career. Because knows enough about basketball to follow what's going on, but not enough about basketball to understand the league and how the players and who's worth what. And she's been asking for three years, why don't they play Kada? Isn't that, doesn't he have everything that a center would have? So when he kind of took off this year for the Celtics, she was like, I was telling you. It was like her one win.

• 9:23Speaker 04

  Wow, what a win.

• 9:24Bill Simmons?

  She sounds like me, taking credit.

• 9:25Speaker 04

  What a win for Zoe Simmons. Unbelievable.

• 9:28Bill Simmons?

  So Zoe Simmons is there today with the hat on, thinking there might be a dark chance Tatum comes out of the tunnel, because that's her favorite player. But then her other favorite player, Kada, became the Kada game. And this was the 39th pick in the 2001 draft by your, your favorite, the Sacramento Kings. They did it again. She said, a prototypical center who is really good with his hands up, who's coordinated, who plays hard, who rebounds, who gets better basically every month. And they're just like, we're good. Take a hike.

• 9:59Speaker 04

  Well, they found him again in Dylan Cardwell. We're doing Dylan Cardwell deep cuts at already in the podcast. So hang on to Dylan Cardwell. Try Sacramento. I just, just free advice. If you have a good player, try to keep the player on your team. It's just, it's a free tip. Just try it. Try it out in this next era of Kings basketball.

• 10:20Bill Simmons?

  Well, that, so Kada, as a playoff guy, which I don't, I just don't think they countered on him like they do now. And you think about some of the teams that the Celtics are going to play in the playoffs, potentially, bigger teams, guys like Durin, the guys the Knicks have, Jared Allen and Moby on the Cavs. Like, they're actually going to really, really need him. And you have this combined with the Tatum comeback, which I, I have like a stealth conspiracy that they're using Shireman as a Tatum proxy.

• 10:51Bill Simmons?

  Shireman's minutes are way up the last six weeks.

• 10:54Speaker 04

  Playing well.

• 10:55Bill Simmons?

  I feel like, and he's playing well and he's doing well on defense and they're using him a little like how they would use Tatum if his, if his legs were back and some of the stuff they're running offensively and some of the ways they're using Shireman, I feel like is what they're gonna end up with Tatum specifically. They like having him in that left corner when Jalen and White are doing like the little at the top stuff. Katus sets a pick, somebody else comes, there's a little action and Shireman's always open that left corner and I feel like that's gonna be a Tatum spot. I think they're gonna be very careful with how they use him. Probably stagger the minutes with Jalen, but when you think about it, cause we're close now, what does a Tatum comeback look like for you? What, like, give me your ceiling basement outcomes for this.

• 11:38Speaker 04

  Ceiling is, he comes back, gets 10 to 12 games under his belt in the regular season. So the playoffs are not 0 to 100 right away. Minutes wise, I don't know. Let's just say 20 to 25 minutes. Let's be conservative and say he's not gonna start playing 35 minutes a game, even if he plays a decreased role compared to what he used to play.

• 11:56Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 11:57Speaker 04

  Let's say 20, 25 minutes. Not quite role player, but not Jason Tatum. And then you said it, when Jalen sits, they've been awesome, by the way, when Jalen is on the bench this whole season. They were awesome again today when Jalen Brown is on the bench, but they do lose, they become like almost a completely system team and the system has worked really well. The, the high screens, all the different screen and roll combinations, the shooting all around it. But they do lose the bully ball. If everything comes to, to a halt with five seconds left in the shot clock, can we mismatch, can we do something? And he's just tall enough that even if he can't power his way to the rim, the way he peek Jason Tatum does or blow by everybody the way he does, he can still be Jason Tatum and shoot

• 12:40Speaker 04

  over the 6'4 guard that's switched on to him at the end of the shot clock. So, and that just makes your team better. It's just another guy slicing into, I mean, it's hard to say like taking some of the Gonzalez minutes and the Hauser minutes and the Walsh minutes, cause all those guys are playing really well, but

• 12:55Bill Simmons?

  Right.

• 12:56Speaker 04

  Just Jason Tatum taking a piece of each of those guys' minutes and all the non-Jalen minutes, I just see no downside to it at all for them.

• 13:05Bill Simmons?

  We feel the same. I, I feel like it's going to be Shireman, the minutes that he takes.

• 13:09Speaker 04

  Yeah, either just throw him into the same bucket.

• 13:11Bill Simmons?

  Just saying, and he's not going to be worse than Shireman. I would say 18 and 24 minutes, probably. Maybe you're looking at nine-minute stretches in each half, or like six and five in each half, or something like that. Shireman, his minutes per game

• 13:28Bill Simmons?

  in February was 24.3, which I thought was interesting because that's right around where I think Tatum's going to be. There's going to be, you know, Simons, they, Simons was out, so some minutes got shared. And then they have to figure out this Vucevic thing because, you know, he looked really awful in a couple of those road trip games. And then Friday against Brooklyn, who usually plays the Celtics well, just for the record. And the Celtics had one of the great offensive performances in the history of the sport. That was interesting. But Vuce looked good in that game, didn't look as good today. I just think at age 35, you're a long time Vucevic watcher. Age 35, he's just going to be hit or miss. You're going to know probably in the second quarter each game. Oh, we getting him tonight? Oh, we're not? Okay, we'll do this instead.

• 14:11Speaker 04

  Well, I think, I think the KDA discussion is really also about Vucevic in that this is an overdue and transition for him into a backup center role, which he is fine for because there are just going to be some matchups where the A-team offense on the other team is just too fast and too dynamic for him. But can you spot him 14 to 18 bench minutes when the best offensive player on the other team's on, on the floor? And he can just bang on the glass and get rebounds and box out. And tonight was like 11 points, 12 rebounds, like didn't kill you on defense. Not the most dynamic offensive team outside of Maxey and Edgecombe, which is a problem for him. But I think this is like, he was just overmatched as a starting center in his mid to late 30s. And this is a totally fine role for him. And they need, you mentioned all the giants that they're going to go through.

• 14:56Speaker 04

  I really think those Detroit games, and particularly the one in Detroit where the Pistons kind of beat them up. Maybe it was in Boston. I can't remember. I think they've lost both, in both places. I think those games really freaked the Celtics out a little bit. Like, oh my God, this, this team is A, for real. And B, just massive and strong compared to us in a way that we are not quite built to play against.

• 15:17Bill Simmons?

  I agree. It's so funny that you can't really survive in the playoffs anymore unless you can have size.

• 15:23Speaker 04

  You need everything, man.

• 15:24Bill Simmons?

  You have no chance. You have OKC, you have Denver, you have Minnesota, you have all the teams in the East we mentioned. You're not getting away with like the 2015 Warriors type of, let's go small, we'll play like, those days are over. This Tatum comeback, one thing that I haven't heard anyone talk about that I realized today, the rarity of somebody coming back this late in the season that's also being counted on, on a team that has a chance to make the finals. I went through all of history trying to figure out how many times this has happened. I really could only find Jordan with the baseball comeback in 95. Magic Johnson got hurt in 1981. He hurt his knee. He missed like 40 games. He missed

• 16:09Bill Simmons?

  over, over half the season, his second season. They came back, they lost in round one. And then Wilt Chamberlain only played 12 games in the regular season in the 69-70, came back for the playoffs and the Willis Reed playoffs. There might have been a couple others, but I really racked my brain. I couldn't, this is really unusual. Like normally how it goes is Jamal Murray getting hurt, missing the rest of the season, coming back and just kind of not being ready in time for the playoffs and the team kind of punting on it. We've never really seen this. And I don't, it's one of the rare things in sports where I have no idea how it plays out. You can give me any set of alternatives for it and I just don't know.

• 16:47Speaker 04

  I mean, there is, it could, it could not go well and they could decide midway through, like, we're actually going to cut your minutes. I don't suspect that's going to happen just because he's so good and he appears to be ready. Yeah, but anything could happen. There was the Jordan broken foot season too, but they weren't a contender that year.

• 17:03Bill Simmons?

  They weren't good though, yeah.

• 17:04Speaker 04

  And you're right.

• 17:05Bill Simmons?

  They were barely a playoff team.

• 17:06Speaker 04

  Most of the time, like I think back to KG in 2009, when there was this will he, won't he thing from that weird knee injury. Even like, remember Jameer Nelson that same year got hurt in the playoffs and Rafer Austin started and it was like, will he, won't he? That's usually what it is. And it is a trickier like, reintegration process for those kinds of players. So, yeah, this is, this is a weird one.

• 17:26Bill Simmons?

  Was Stoudemire, I can't remember, Stoudemire 20 years ago in the 06 Suns. I can't remember if he was lingering for a comeback or not. It's too long ago.

• 17:35Speaker 04

  Seven seconds or less. He did not come back, I don't believe, in the playoffs.

• 17:38Bill Simmons?

  He didn't come back, but I didn't know if it was like they were, had their fingers crossed. Well, we'll see what happens. This is gonna be a very interesting sell next week because they have Milwaukee tomorrow night. And I think they're gonna rest everybody and hope Milwaukee has one of those just terrible Milwaukee games like they had today. Charlotte on Wednesday, who we're gonna talk about later. We're doing a Charlotte. The deep dive, we did Kawhi last week. We're doing a deep dive on Charlotte this week. Friday, Dallas, Cooper flag homecoming. The entire state of Maine's gonna be there. Hopefully he plays. And then I think they play against Sunday. I want to talk about Maxey quick because I was thinking about him today.

• 18:12Bill Simmons?

  The best picks after pick 20. He's the 21st pick in 2020. How rare it is to get somebody that you've drafted for yourself who has a chance to be an All-NBA guy, which I think we both think he's probably at least second team. Desmond Bain in that same draft was 30. Brunson was 33 for Dallas, but ended up on the Knicks before he became a guy. Ananobe on Toronto, 23. D. White was 29. Siakam, 27. Then, of course, Jokic, 41. Gobert, 27. Draymond, 35. Middleton, 39. And Butler, 30. Those are all the guys from the last 15 years that after pick 20 became guys. And he has a chance to be a second team All-NBA.

• 18:55Bill Simmons?

  The Sixers have loved this whole time, but I, I, I just think what he's doing is really special this year. He's gonna, he's gonna play the most minutes and the most games at the guard position in 10 years. Is what he's on pace. The last guy was James Harden. 82 games, 38.1 a game in 2016. Like, guards don't do this anymore. Play this many minutes, have this much of a burden. And they kind of rise and fall with them. He wasn't very good tonight, but he kind of also kept them in it. And I just, did, did you ever think he would be this guy?

• 19:26Speaker 04

  No, no. I mean, I, I think he is gonna make an All-NBA team this year. I had him on third team when I just did my, my blink test, look at the team. It's, it's, it's a crowded field, even with the health issues. But I think he should make an All-NBA team. I don't think anyone thought he would be an All-NBA player. That's why he was picked 21st. Remember, they only got him because Mike Muscala hit a bunch of shots in an Oklahoma City game that like flipped the pick to Philadelphia's way.

• 19:49Bill Simmons?

  No, I'm saying like after we knew he was good.

• 19:52Speaker 04

  Oh.

• 19:53Bill Simmons?

  Did you think he was gonna be this good? Cause there became a point, especially when Harden was still there, it was like, wow, they really hit this Maxey pick. He's good. Did you think he was gonna be this good?

• 20:03Speaker 04

  Yeah, I can't say that I expected like 30 a game on good efficiency.

• 20:06Bill Simmons?

  Me neither.

• 20:06Speaker 04

  Like I, I, and, and I think what, what proves that that was probably the consensus is he's been in the most improved player conversation for like the last four years. Like every year, people are like, again, like I guess we gotta put him up for this award again.

• 20:19Bill Simmons?

  Yeah. Yeah, he's got, some of the stuff he does is just so unique to him. Like he's got a floater basically from the foul line that he shoots running straight like a shot put. I don't know anybody else who has that shot. The change of speed stuff he has, the teams are so terrified of him now. They get a defensive rebound and he has the ball in the backcourt. You could see, it's almost like football, like when Tyree kills in motion, you can see everybody kinda scrambling around. But he's a really special player and I, you know, they have this Embiid, Embiid now has this oblique injury too. And Maxey's talked about his frustration with how they're basically these two separate teams. I think people are wondering, is this kind of like a playoff team you don't wanna see in the playoffs when they get Paul George back and Embiid?

• 21:02Bill Simmons?

  I think the style thing's gonna kill them ultimately in a series, cause I don't think they know who they are. But long-term, as a combo, this, this, we don't call them VJ Max, Edge Com and Maxey. It's about as good as it gets for a young combo, I think. Like they're in great shape. All the question for me is will Daryl Morey be around to, to see it?

• 21:24Speaker 04

  Ooh.

• 21:24Bill Simmons?

  Would be around to see it through? Who knows?

• 21:26Speaker 04

  I mean, you'd have to, I believe we're only 60 games in and they are clinging to the sixth seed. The race for six in the East has gotten pretty spicy and like the, the whole seven to 10 thing is a mess. But 60 games in, you'd have to count this season as a success for Philadelphia, I think, given Embiid's been in and out of the lineup in this PG thing. I mean, I don't know how you evaluate, you know, who's at fault for all of this, the mishaps that continue to befall this franchise. But this is better than I thought they would be after 60 games, given, and they haven't had like great health luck by any stretch.

• 21:58Bill Simmons?

  No, what was it 42 was the over under?

• 22:01Speaker 04

  It was something like.

• 22:02Bill Simmons?

  It was the one that really flummox you, me and House about like.

• 22:04Speaker 04

  Didn't know what to do.

• 22:06Bill Simmons?

  You could have said 20 wins either way. Yeah, you're right. With Paul George basically missing, when you include the injuries at the start of the year and the suspension, he's gonna miss over half the season. And Bead's had three separate injuries. They've gotten more from Edgecombe than they. I really like the role guys. I think that Bona's a legitimate rotation guy who I could see in a playoff series. Yeah, I don't, like, if that's the 2-7 matchup, they match up pretty, like, they're very comfortable against Boston. Even today, all of a sudden, that game was six, and they just had these little runs against Boston. I think they like going against Jalen. They have guys to throw at him. They like going

• 22:48Bill Simmons?

  against the Boston guards. They did a good job on Pritchard today. But I just think without the size, it's not gonna happen. Knicks Spurs was the other really interesting one today, which we both watched. It was the first time the Spurs looked like crap in a while, their win streak then. It was also the first time the Knicks really, you could see the full, whatever, whatever the blueprint was as they were heading in the trade deadline. Not gonna overreact because the Knicks had some bad losses over the last couple of weeks, but did you learn anything from that game?

• 23:18Speaker 04

  I thought it was, first of all, I guess I learned that Mohamed Diawara is gonna shoot, like, 23s in a game at some point this season. He's, I actually think he's pretty good, and he's earned himself a look in their postseason rotation. To me, that game, I mean, a lot of Knicks played well in that game. That was a Josh Hart game. And, you know, they're gonna see this strategy over and over again, where teams put their centers, their rim protectors on Josh Hart, and just ignore him, and put wing players on Cat. And my God, Stephon Castle goes from guarding Cat to guarding Brunson when Cat goes out the game. It's like, this guy is in his second year, and this is what he's doing on defense, let alone the offense. That's crazy. But Josh Hart, it gives a little funky to start

• 24:01Speaker 04

  with, and I think the Knicks kinda leaned into, if you're gonna ignore Josh Hart, we're actually gonna bring him up into the action, even though Wemby's on him, and that means we're bringing Wemby into the action, and he's this terrifying alien with a million foot wingspan. And they made the most out of it like he scored on the pick and roll. He got open shots for Brunson. He did the Draymond thing, which I think they're going to need to do more if teams treat him like this, which is if you're ignoring me, swing the ball back to me. I'll, I'll run a handoff for Mikhail Bridges, who hit a three out of this. Landry Sham, I got a good three out of it. And I looked it up on the tracking data. It was the most ball screens Josh Hart has set in any game this season was in this game. And I remember, I remember talking to a head coach, maybe two months ago, whose team was

• 24:46Speaker 04

  in New York to play the Knicks. We sat down, we were having coffee and we were, I was like, so are you going to put your center on blah, blah, you're going to do the heart thing probably, right? Like that's what the matchups make sense for you. Are you going to put your center on heart? He's like, I don't know, man. Josh Hart feels like he solved that one. And like, he's hurt a lot of teams by making open threes and doing Josh Hart things and crashing the glass. And I'm kind of afraid to do it. And he didn't do it. And I think the Knicks won the game. But if that, that conversation stuck in my head is like, this is how a team's think about game planning for the Knicks. It really starts with Towns and Hart. And, and the Knicks felt like today they hit a gear with that, that they had not hit this season.

• 25:24Bill Simmons?

  Hmm. Also helps San Antonio, 26.5% from three.

• 25:29Speaker 04

  Dirk, they're gonna have clunkers.

• 25:30Bill Simmons?

  About just about any team. But yeah, the, the San Antonio clunker is a little unsustainable. It's also the way to beat OKC. Hey, could you guys miss 75% of your threes? That would really help us. Um, on the Knicks.

• 25:44Speaker 04

  Okay.

• 25:45Bill Simmons?

  Larry David was there. They kept showing him during the game. I, I'm reasonably sure that was his first or second time back, but I think it was his first time back since the game where he went to the Halliburton.

• 25:59Speaker 04

  Oh, he was there?

• 26:00Bill Simmons?

  The comeback game and the three that went all the way up and down. And he was supposed to stay for two games and flew back after that game. He was so traumatized. So I think it was an emotional return for LD.

• 26:11Speaker 04

  Wow.

• 26:11Bill Simmons?

  At MSG.

• 26:12Speaker 04

  I didn't realize that.

• 26:13Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, it was. I mean, the Knicks fans still talk about that Halliburton game like I was talking about the 86 World Series, the Buckner game. Like, it was that traumatic.

• 26:23Speaker 04

  I mean, you're not kidding because I think it's faded recently because we're just in the dog days of the season. But early in the season, when I would go to MSG and they would be up like 14 in the fourth quarter, and another team would go on like a 5-0 run, you could hear these murmurings in the crowd of like, what? It's this is like the eighth game of the season. What do you also word? Oh, it's that game. It's in their heads a little bit.

• 26:46Bill Simmons?

  One of the most traumatizing losses of since we've been alive for the NBA.

• 26:51Speaker 04

  Oh.

• 26:51Bill Simmons?

  It's easily in the top five. And then we've we've both watched the game since. It's an absolutely incredible rewatch. All right, I'm gonna zip through a couple random dorky NBA things.

• 27:03Speaker 04

  Could I just say before you do, I'm just so, I'm really happy that I got to share the Kada game with you. That's what I was thinking the entire second half. There's one, one day, I'm gonna get to see the sad Bill meme.

• 27:15Bill Simmons?

  Kada mania.

• 27:16Speaker 04

  After Celtics teams, and I really want to see the sad Bill meme like in person or on Zoom. This, I just, the whole thing, I was like, no one in the world is gonna be happier that Kada had a career game, and we had to spend nine minutes watching a woman get kicked in the face by BJ Edgecombe because of a review.

• 27:34Bill Simmons?

  And make us reconsider who should be sitting sideline. Do we need a protective net? I'm prepared for every dumb conversation possible about this. That lady was a hero, sitting, stayed in the seat, too.

• 27:46Speaker 04

  No complaints.

• 27:47Bill Simmons?

  I thought Tirico did a great job of being like, look at her toughen out. She's gonna, she's gonna stay the last four minutes. She didn't have to go to the medical tent.

• 27:54Speaker 04

  Even she was sitting there like, is this, is, what is Secoc is doing? Is nobody there? Do they all go get a coffee break? Why is this taking eight fucking minutes to resolve this? Can we get on with it? I'm bleeding. Can we get on with the game?

• 28:07Bill Simmons?

  Need a nice pack. Forty-five seconds, max, for a review. Just tell me that rule doesn't work. We don't know in 45 seconds. Keep the call as stands. Let's move on. All right. This episode is brought to you by Michelob Ultra. Excitement is in the air. That's right. It's the start of NBA season. I can't wait to get together with friends, share some Michelob Ultras and watch Tip Off. Plus, as the official beer sponsor of the NBA, Michelob Ultra is getting you closer to the action with experiences that make you feel like you're courtside to actual courtside tickets. Enter now for a chance to win at michelobultra.com/courtside. Michelob Ultra Courtside 26 to 27. No purchase necessary. Open to U.S. residents 21 plus. Begins on October 1st, 2026. Ends on June 30th, 2027.

• 28:52Bill Simmons?

  Multiple entry periods. See official rules at michelobultra.com/courtside for free entry, entry deadlines, prizes and details. This episode is brought to you by Expedia. You know how at the end of the season, your team goes to Cancun? Sometimes earlier than expected? Sometimes after blowing a 3-1 series lead? But what if you went to Cancun? With Expedia, save up to 30% when you bundle and save. You can book the flight or the hotel now, then book the rest later. In all fairness, though, hopefully, your team doesn't go to Cancun. 1-2-3 Cancun. Or if they do, you go with them. Expedia, the one place you go to go places. Sign in to save, savings vary. Random dorky NBA stuff.

• 29:30Speaker 04

  Let's go.

• 29:33Bill Simmons?

  Have the Thunder officially become villains? Did this happen? Are we here? I'll give you some of the case and then you tell me. All the picks that they have. Just the fact that they're successful, but then have this war chest too. Sam Presti, how everybody else in the league now is mad at Sam Presti for a variety of reasons, including that he's now anti-tanking when he used to be pro-tanking and whatever.

• 30:00Speaker 04

  Is your phone ringing yet? Or is it, do you have it on mute?

• 30:03Bill Simmons?

  It's off.

• 30:04Speaker 04

  Okay.

• 30:05Bill Simmons?

  All the foul baiting, especially from SGA. That's became a thing this year. The boring commercials, just bad commercials starring the OKC people. I don't think people like that. They stole the team from Seattle, has to be mentioned.

• 30:17Speaker 04

  Wow, you were go all in.

• 30:19Bill Simmons?

  And then the coup de grace, Lou Dort, the dirtiest guy in the league. Just hands down. If we're handing that out and if we, if that's in the awards, dirtiest player of the year, Ludoard wins. That was the dirtiest thing anyone did this year. It was inexcusable. I can't believe he did it. It was, it was a play to try to hurt another player. It wasn't in the flow of a game where somebody's up in the air and they make a mistake. This was like a deliberate, I'm going to try to fuck with Nikola Jokic and maybe hurt him. Is my interpretation of that play. There's no other interpretation.

• 30:51Speaker 04

  I feel like, I feel like you're taking it personally almost because it was Jokic. I feel like you felt it was a personal attack on you.

• 30:57Bill Simmons?

  Listen, Liam Beer, there's been guys over the years, they crossed the line of, are you actually trying to hurt somebody else who's in this game? And I thought that crossed the line. And I couldn't believe the OKC coach was like surprised after. Maybe he didn't see the clip.

• 31:12Speaker 04

  I, I did enjoy Mark Diagnos reaction after the game. Like, I just want to know, is that a flagrant two now? We're doing that every time. It's a flagrant two? Because we're doing it every time. I just want to know it's a flagrant two. And then that's as far as you go. He wouldn't say anything else about it. But I mean, look, it looks, it doesn't look like a hard hit when you see it on replay, but that's because we're not taking it from like a 260 pound cinder block in real time. It was, you know, it was a decent hit. I wasn't surprised they upgraded it to a flagrant two. And it was clearly, I'm going out of my way to hit you. This is not a natural running motion. This is not a direction anybody would take. Similar to like, you know, that we've been seeing a lot of other plays like that where just guys just decide, I'm going to hit you. And

• 31:57Speaker 04

  you decided, I'm going to hit Jokic. Are they villains? I mean, I think villains are great for the NBA. I would love to see them lean in.

• 32:05Bill Simmons?

  That's why I brought this up. They kind of need an identity, right? Remember last year, we were like, how do we talk about these guys? They just play hard. They all like each other. They're leaning into their inner villain now, which I like.

• 32:16Speaker 04

  I, I, I mean.

• 32:18Bill Simmons?

  Like, we'll, we'll never see Jokic that mad again. And this is a guy who got, who got cheap shot by one of the Morris brothers and then nailed him in the back. And nobody has messed with Jokic since for like, what, five years?

• 32:29Speaker 04

  I was worried.

• 32:30Bill Simmons?

  Has anybody done anything to him since then?

• 32:32Speaker 04

  I was worried his brothers were going to be at the game and something like, who knows what's going to happen if the Jokic brothers are at the game. But the eyes, those eyes will live on forever. I mean, that is an all time meme, whatever. Like those eyes, I don't look at, I don't look at the first beer after trade deadline with the intensity that Nikola Jokic stared at Lou Dort with. Like we did Big Jay the other way. I mean, that was, that was a lusty, aggressive stare.

• 33:01Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, there's three problems for Dort. One is that he, he saw Jokic, sized him up, and then pretended he didn't see him. Then he stepped back into him and then he swung his right, right foot around to make sure that he got him. And there was, so there was history from the before, earlier in the game with them. And in general, it was a chippy game. And I think one of the lessons from this week, there's real animosity in some of these games now.

• 33:26Speaker 04

  Oh, that was, that was, that was an intense game from the beginning. Pistons Spurs was just like.

• 33:32Bill Simmons?

  Pistons, how about Pistons, everybody? Pistons, Cavs was also, because that, I, I thought Friday night was awesome, but Piston Cavs was, was also really chippy and, and kind of angry. And not a lot of, not a lot, we're, we've, we've kind of moved out of the banana boat era with the, with the league. I feel like there's a lot of animosity now in these games again.

• 33:54Speaker 04

  I, I love it. I think, I think we all agree. We would like to see more of that. On the Thunder villain thing, I, I will say, some of it is envy, right? Like, teams are just envious about how well the Thunder have built their team. I, I will also say, when Chris Finch, now, what are we, two months into this, gave his, they're very frustrating to play against because they get to the line a lot and you can't touch Shay. Remember that press conference Chris, Chris Finch gave? And like, there was before and after stats about Shay's free throws. I heard from so many people around the league being like, Chris Finch is a hero. We love Chris Finch.

• 34:30Bill Simmons?

  Somebody said it.

• 34:30Speaker 04

  Somebody said it. Like, so there's something, there's something to this.

• 34:34Bill Simmons?

  It was like the Stillwater drummer in Almost Famous when they start going off on Russell Hammond and he's like, "Finally the truth!" in the bus or the plane, whatever it was. I like it. I think the Thunder have an identity again. Their fans are gonna eat this up. I'm sure this segment will get cut out and put somewhere and I'll be a villain like poor Justin Terminy, who's enemy number one in Oklahoma City.

• 34:59Speaker 04

  Before all their players got hurt, part of being a villain is knowing how goddamn good you are and wanting to crush everybody in front of you. And before all their players got hurt, they played like a team who was like, "Bring it on. We're gonna destroy your soul in this basketball game." And I loved that. That's exactly how you want a champion to approach its potential repeat season.

• 35:21Bill Simmons?

  Well, you talked with Legs about this little Kason Wallace mini leap in February, which has been noticeable. I don't know how much is there, big picture, but I've increased the ceiling in the building by a couple stories. Because it's clear to me now, they're gonna have some tax stuff. They also have to figure out how to pay him. Dort's got the team option next year, and I wonder, is Dort and Caruso and Wallace on this team a year from now? My bet would be no. They'll try to patch the picks that they have and they'll try to save money that and then give the money back to Wallace. But Wallace, like what, give me the best statistical season of his career. Give me a guess.

• 36:04Speaker 04

  18 and 5, maybe, something like that.

• 36:07Bill Simmons?

  Do you think that's the best?

• 36:08Speaker 04

  22 and 5, I don't know. I mean, it just depends where he goes, right? Like, it depends what team he's on.

• 36:16Bill Simmons?

  See, I was ready to get to like 22, 7 and 5.

• 36:19Speaker 04

  You might be right. You're better at projecting. You're more adventurous and therefore better.

• 36:23Bill Simmons?

  I just wonder how much is there. Could he be, obviously if he's on this team, he's never gonna be the lead guard, but could he be like a real sidekick? Somebody who's 37, 38 minutes a game, 3-3's a game? I don't know. I don't know. Maybe it's 20, maybe it's closer to you. It's somewhere between 18 and 22, but I wouldn't have said this three months ago, I don't think.

• 36:44Speaker 04

  But to your point... I think people just like recency bias and just people got a lot going on in their lives. I think people have kind of forgotten how good the Thunder can really be and there's going to be a week when they get everybody back and it's going to be like, oh God, oh yeah, that's right, that guy too. And that guy is coming off the bench and that guy's a luxury item and like Jared McCain, who they swiped from the Sixers is suddenly like the 13th man on the team, but he's playing great too.

• 37:11Bill Simmons?

  Yeah. And honestly, not, not the worst thing in the world to not put all these miles on these guys when you're gonna have a five or six year run, which I've been thinking about a lot. Like talking about that five year Warriors run, I forget what podcast we talked about it on here, but you know, those years are like seven years crammed into five years when you add those playoff games and you look back at the history of the league and all of these teams that had these four or five year intense runs like that. And the guys would half the time break down at the end of them. It certainly happened with the Celtics in the, in the eighties and it happened to the Pistons. By the time they got to 91, it was just off a cliff. The Bulls kind of avoided it because Jordan went and played baseball for that year and a half, kind of, kind of pushed it off. I was thinking

• 37:55Bill Simmons?

  about it the other day because Robert Horry was saying how he thought the 94 and 95, he said on some podcast, the 94 and 95 Rockets would have beaten the Bulls, which in a vacuum is, is a relatively insane statement, but when you think about the Bulls coming off three straight titles and losing Horace Grant, I do think the Rockets would have beaten them one of those years.

• 38:15Speaker 04

  Is he saying like if Jordan, if Jordan never left?

• 38:19Bill Simmons?

  He's like, if Jordan was there, we would have beaten them both times. I don't know about both times.

• 38:22Speaker 04

  I don't think that's, both times is, is probably crazy, but I mean, you, eight titles in a row? Like that was not, that was probably not going to happen. I think even, even people with the Bulls, like Steve Kerr has said, they don't, he doesn't think that they would have won all those titles.

• 38:38Bill Simmons?

  Speaking of Nuggets, just a quick one.

• 38:40Speaker 04

  Okay.

• 38:42Bill Simmons?

  Cam Johnson concern scale?

• 38:47Bill Simmons?

  I was DEFCON 2 and then the 0 for 4 today and I might now be at DEFCON 1. It's been bad. Friday night, I was on a couple of different texts during that OKC Denver game. Three minutes left, I texted, this game is going to come down to a wide open Cam Johnson 3.

• 39:03Speaker 04

  No way.

• 39:04Bill Simmons?

  Because, yeah, I have it. I have the text.

• 39:06Speaker 04

  Wow.

• 39:07Bill Simmons?

  The reason I said that was because he's been shaky enough in these games

• 39:15Bill Simmons?

  that they were clearly going to help off him in the biggest possession in the game and take their chances with him in the corner. And it's exactly what happened and he missed it. It was a tie game with seven seconds left. This is why you go and trade him, a trade that both of us loved.

• 39:29Speaker 04

  And he just had. Hold on, hold on. Don't lump me in with you. I thought, I thought Michael Porter Jr. Was swept away like he was like.

• 39:37Bill Simmons?

  I just lumped you in. What are you going to do about it? I said what I said.

• 39:41Speaker 04

  I.

• 39:41Bill Simmons?

  I lumped you in. I don't care if you didn't want to be lumped in. I needed company with me in house. So you didn't like it? You like Porter?

• 39:47Speaker 04

  I, I, I liked it because I, it also allowed them to get Valanciunas and fill out their bench a little bit. And it was clear some sort of financial relief was going to come. I just thought people were like wildly underestimating how good Michael Porter Jr. Was in, in the trade and how important his shooting was for Denver.

• 40:03Bill Simmons?

  Well, you were right.

• 40:04Speaker 04

  I also didn't think Cam, Cam Johnson's moving so tentatively in some ways that I almost, you just have to wonder if he's still not healthy all the way back from the various ailments that have hurt him this season. Cause he just, beyond the shooting numbers, which are actually for the season, all right, he just is not adding any like oomph to their ball movement, to their offense. It just isn't there.

• 40:26Bill Simmons?

  I looked up his crunch time stats and he's one for eight in crunch time. Small sample size.

• 40:30Speaker 04

  Small sample.

• 40:31Bill Simmons?

  But turns 30 this week, but I just think they need him. They need him at the end of these games. They've had so many winnable games. It's so weird to see a Nuggets team. But they're still like five, we did this last week. We were saying how they're 500. They're still 500 over like 35 games now. And they've blown so many games at the end of games, which I just didn't think was possible. Now they have, Gordon's going to come back. That's going to change things. Watson, I'm not freaking out.

• 41:00Speaker 04

  No.

• 41:00Bill Simmons?

  But the Cam Johnson, the Cam Johnson thing is significant though, because he's somebody that if he, if he's not going to be out there in that spot when we're in the playoffs, who is it going to be? Hardaway? Who's it going to be? Who's, who's it going to be in that corner?

• 41:15Bill Simmons?

  That is going to make or break like a game four on the road somewhere. Cause I don't, I don't, he's lost my trust, unfortunately.

• 41:22Speaker 04

  Well, Gordon and Watson answer a lot of those questions, but I mean, Jokic had more, some more goofy turnovers by his, by his standards today. I think he had five turnovers and he's had a few turnovers in all these games where it's like, the defense is, is on his wavelength. Like they, they, I don't want to say they outthink him, but he doesn't outthink them. They see the pass coming and pick it off, which is unusual for him. And right now they just have no, they have no size. Like they're so small. They have no one. They have like Christian Brown's trying to guard Anthony's all right at it. And Cam Johnson tried to guard Julius Randall, who didn't have a great game, but they just don't have any size outside of their centers right now. It is beginning, again, you can't panic, can't overreact because all these guys are coming back. And we'll see if Aaron Gordon can stay healthy.

• 42:07Speaker 04

  But this last month with Jokic and the team not winning as much as you'd expect with Jokic still playing sensationally. It does have a feel of like, sometimes it's just like, it doesn't come together. Sometimes it's just not, we're not there yet, but it's, it's on my like radar of like, it might just be the year it doesn't happen. And I expected it to happen like, because I do think there's a legitimate great team in here, but

• 42:30Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 42:31Speaker 04

  Sometimes you run out of time to find it.

• 42:35Bill Simmons?

  I mean, sadly I'm deep down feeling the same way. The problem here is that Jokic is still having an all time season and Murray is having the best season of his life. And we shouldn't have this many questions. Also, when Gordon comes back, what level of Gordon are we getting? And also is he coming back? We, we now have, they played, so basically 20, we're at the, and you're entering the last quarter of the season. So he's going to come back and just be thrown into a four or five matchup against Minnesota where they're going to need him for like 35 minutes a game. And with a hammy, what, it's a hammy thing that just feels like it just keeps happening.

• 43:12Speaker 04

  That's the worry is that his combination of size, power on both ends, defensive versatility, and he's now a proven 40-plus percent three-point shooter. They don't have anyone who combines all those things. That's why he's such a unique player. They have pieces of them and other players who have weaknesses. They get exploited elsewhere. And to get through the West, you need to be pretty damn close to 100% to get through all of these teams. I mean, these are five legit, really good teams. And Houston, who we're kind of both down on, and I think everybody is, is now in third in the West. And they're, whatever you think of them, they're gonna make you feel some pain over a seven-game series, no matter who you are.

• 43:53Bill Simmons?

  The scary thing for Denver is four or five could be them and Minnesota, a team that loves playing Denver. Is very comfortable against them. Doesn't mean they're gonna beat them. And the Lakers now have the same number of losses as Denver. And it's been this Lakers season that a team we've written off 700 times, and it somehow has the exact same record as Denver. Okay, next topic. Oh, speaking of the West, the 7, 8, 9, 10 in the West is just officially bizarre. Where we have Phoenix at 34 and 26, Booker's still out, Brooks is out, I guess for the season? Golden State's 31 and 29, and it's gonna be 31 and 32 in three games.

• 44:35Speaker 04

  I don't think they've said for the season with Brooks, but time-wise, it gets, I think it was four to six weeks.

• 44:40Bill Simmons?

  It's very close, like to the last week, yeah.

• 44:41Speaker 04

  I just wanted to be clear. I was like, did I miss something? I don't think I did.

• 44:43Bill Simmons?

  Golden State could be under 500 in three games. Portland's at 29 and 32. The Clippers are 27 and 31, but relying on Kawhi and Darius Garland, who aren't exactly Lou Gehrig.

• 44:56Speaker 04

  Clippers are about to win right now, by the way.

• 44:59Bill Simmons?

  Alright, so they'll be 28 and 31.

• 45:02Speaker 04

  Portland lost, so they're 29 and 33. They lost to the Jonathan Kaminga-led Atlanta Hawks by 34 points.

• 45:08Bill Simmons?

  Crowd chanting, "Thank you Warriors," during the Kaminga game, as he had another one. Portland has a weird, obvia back injury thing that's gonna knock him out of any possible NBA stuff. Not that he was gonna make it anyway. Golden State just said Curry needs at least 10 more days. That's starting to look a little, get a little whiff of, little, little tanky whiff.

• 45:31Speaker 04

  Oh, I wouldn't, I wouldn't, that, that.

• 45:36Bill Simmons?

  I don't know. If Curry, like, do you rush him back to play him hurt? Or do you be like, you know what? Let's get the 10th pick in the draft.

• 45:44Speaker 04

  Okay. I mean, that's, that's a, I mean, so you gotta lose in the play in then. You gotta like, there's, there's, there's zero chance that any of these teams fall out in the play.

• 45:53Bill Simmons?

  Yeah. Fuck it. We'll wait. Steph, come back that week if you're healthy.

• 45:59Bill Simmons?

  Give me two teams you think are in the playoffs. Seven, eight, nine, 10, Phoenix, Golden State, Portland and Clippers. Pick two.

• 46:05Speaker 04

  I gotta pick two. Two have to make it.

• 46:07Bill Simmons?

  Two have to make it.

• 46:08Speaker 04

  Well, again, I'll tell you what, no one below them is even trying to win. So congratulations to the four play in teams. Unless one of you passes the Lakers or Nuggets, you are in the play in with 20 games left. We can celebrate. You can hang a banner. I will go, I'll go Suns Clippers. How about that?

• 46:27Bill Simmons?

  Suns Clippers.

• 46:29Speaker 04

  Darius Garland coming back tomorrow. Kawhi's Kawhi, you know, I don't feel great about it, but I'll go Suns Clippers. I don't love, I don't love this Steph injury and the team just feels like there's just a lot of like D'Anthony Melton and Guy Santos and Quentin Post going on. And all those guys are actually playing okay, but it just feels a little, like a, like a rickety mishmash of whatever.

• 46:51Bill Simmons?

  The box score is alarming. The one yesterday, they got killed by the Lakers. The box score is like, oh my God, this is like a Brooklyn Nets lineup. I would also say Suns Clippers. I really tried to talk myself into Portland. I watched the entire Portland Charlotte game. My Hornets were playing at 10 o'clock Pacific time. I had to, I had to test drive that one. Portland really wanted the game and came in with a really hardcore defensive plan against, and I don't want to waste our Charlotte stuff because we're doing deep dive later, but really like, it was the first time I've seen a team like, be like, here's our strategy to take out Knipple and they were doing all this stuff to try to take them out. Drew Holiday was playing really hard. I like Klingon. They have good wings.

• 47:32Bill Simmons?

  Scoot Henderson, there's a lot of signs that he's, don't sell your Scoot stock yet. Don't shake your head.

• 47:39Speaker 04

  No, no, I did a whole Scoot Brandon Miller segment last two weeks ago and talked about Scoot. And I just didn't think that was a particularly good Scoot game.

• 47:47Bill Simmons?

  Well, just there's some signs. They're getting more comfortable. They're giving him the ball and letting him do stuff.

• 47:51Speaker 04

  It would be nice if more of the signs went into the basket, but you know.

• 47:55Bill Simmons?

  I'm just trying to be class half full of Scoot. I've, I've been admitting defeat on the Brandon Miller Scoot thing. I'm officially admitting defeat.

• 48:02Speaker 04

  There's not, there's no other move. I mean, you, there's not, there's no other move.

• 48:06Bill Simmons?

  Brandon Miller. Brandon Miller is tremendous.

• 48:11Speaker 04

  He's really good.

• 48:12Bill Simmons?

  I love Brandon Miller. Like, he, he's really looking Paul George, Jalen Brown-ish offensively. Like, that could be, I, like, I think he could be 26 a game if he could stay healthy at some point.

• 48:24Speaker 04

  Absolutely.

• 48:24Bill Simmons?

  In his career. Um, all right. So we both say Phoenix and the Clippers. And yet the Clippers could, Kawhi could be gone tomorrow.

• 48:37Bill Simmons?

  Okay.

• 48:38Speaker 04

  Well, I mean, I, yes, but if you're asking me to pick, I'm picking them. It's just, it's a little bit of a, it's everything.

• 48:46Bill Simmons?

  Go and say a thing.

• 48:46Speaker 04

  Everything about it is weird, including that there is no 11th place team. You can just erase the last part of the standings unless you're doing the reverse standings. You don't even need to look at them.

• 48:56Bill Simmons?

  Well, New Orleans might make a late surge here. They're only 20 back, but they're one of the hottest teams in the West right now.

• 49:02Speaker 04

  Behind the Clippers in the last column.

• 49:03Bill Simmons?

  Can they make that up? I don't know. New Orleans played really well. Just killing the Hawks pick.

• 49:08Speaker 04

  Zion got hurt again, though. Uh, not again, he'd played, Zion got hurt just as we got used to Zion playing. He's now hurt again. Hopefully it's, it's minor, but this is just the story of some of these guys' careers.

• 49:18Bill Simmons?

  I hope we learned a lesson from this Pelicans pick with the Hawks. Cause we've seen this situation before. The Celtics were in it one year with the, uh, Cleveland pick. We've seen these teams have these seemingly super choice picks. And the time to trade them is November, December, when they have maximum, look how good this pick's gonna be. Cause the truth is, the team whose pick you have has no incentive to stop trying in the last 30 games of the season. And they start playing some of these other tanking teams and they're like, fuck it. Well, what do we care? And they'll start winning and all of a sudden you're in the ninth pick instead of the fourth pick. And I, I think Atlanta probably should have sent that pick back in a while ago.

• 50:03Speaker 04

  If you.

• 50:03Bill Simmons?

  So it'll be the ninth pick.

• 50:04Speaker 04

  If you watch the Pelicans, if a person who had never, who knows nothing about the NBA, watched the Pelicans play any of the other seven to eight teams who are tanking right now, they'd be like, well, that's gotta be the best team in the league, right? Like, this team's gotta be by far the best team. They're so much better than this other team.

• 50:21Bill Simmons?

  Some of the tanking stuff's great. And then Sacramento's taking it a step further. There was some weird internet rumor about that they want to sign Westbrook for next year, that he's become a leader of the team, Sacramento. Goldsberry sent us that. And my response was that I think him being the GM is the natural outcome for all of this. But that putting him in charge of the team.

• 50:45Speaker 04

  He, I guess he's now, I mean, he's a King player. You have to be a Kings player to really be in consideration to replace an established GM, a former Kings player.

• 50:54Bill Simmons?

  You have to put your time in. It's like prison. It's like you have to be in the yard for a couple of years before they let you work in the, in the library.

• 51:01Speaker 04

  I didn't even have the heart to respond to the text. I just, it's just, it's too sad.

• 51:08Bill Simmons?

  Is it, would you say it's completely inconceivable that Russell Westbrook could someday be the Sacramento Kings GM?

• 51:14Speaker 04

  No way. I think that like, I don't, if, I'm surprised there are not odds on it already. Like, it's like.

• 51:20Bill Simmons?

  Maybe we could do one of those weird prediction markets.

• 51:24Speaker 04

  Kelsey?

• 51:24Bill Simmons?

  Put that bet down. Yeah. With Kelsey. Just put some Kelsey money on that.

• 51:28Speaker 04

  Tweets out. By the way, look at Kelsey today for a new, a new line on Russell Westbrook being the GM.

• 51:34Bill Simmons?

  Drop to 50 to one on Fandals, Fandals one, Fandals predictions. Okay. Next goofy question.

• 51:43Bill Simmons?

  What happens if Giannis comes back this week?

• 51:45Speaker 04

  It's, I can't, I'm so excited you brought this up.

• 51:48Bill Simmons?

  Miami's the, so right now we have six, seven, eight, nine. Philly's 31 and 27. Orlando's 31 and 28. Miami's 32 and 29. So they're all grouped together at six, seven, eight. America's team, the Charlotte Hornets is 30 and 31. Can't wait to do the deep dive with them. They're the nine seed right now. Atlanta is 31 and 31. Actually, they're the nine seed right now. Charlotte's 10. And then Milwaukee is 26 and 33. So they are a couple of losses behind basically everybody. Milwaukee was eight and three in their last 11, so they lost the stupid game they lost today.

• 52:23Bill Simmons?

  Giannis is looming. He could play the last 20 games. So if they go, I don't know, could they get to 40 wins? It's possible they go 14 and six.

• 52:37Bill Simmons?

  What happens? Could they, could they make, all they'd have to do is jump one team and get to the 10 seed and then it's just playing playoff games. Like to me, Giannis is not dead yet.

• 52:47Speaker 04

  No, that little, this is this, I think people wrote off the Bucks and kind of forgot about the Bucks and the, the Eastern Conference let the Bucks stay alive because that stretch they had before All-Star was absolutely massive because it gave them the margin for error to come back to earth. And this was a comeback to earth weekend for the Bucks. Two horrible losses, including a blowout to the Bulls who had not won in literally a month. And yet they're just still two games back in the lost column behind Charlotte and two games back behind Atlanta, four games back at the Heat. But all of these teams, like just look at their records in the last 10 games, Orlando, six and four, Miami, five and five, Hawks, six and four. None of them have run away from the Bucks. And, and like with Giannis,

• 53:30Speaker 04

  the team makes sense. It makes enough sense to make up two games on an Atlanta Hawks team who only like kind of makes sense as a basketball team. Orlando is, is that's, that's Orlando and Miami are taller hills to climb, but not, not teams without problem. I mean, Norm Powell just got hurt. He's going to miss a little bit of time. The sooner he comes back, the more interesting this gets because if they get into the play-in and they're going full throttle with Giannis, even if they're coming from the nine, 10 seed, they got a hell of a chance to get in. And then, then it gets real interesting.

• 54:03Bill Simmons?

  Then it turns into NBA Cup where it's just like, you have to be honest tonight or you're going home. And that's it. And Giannis really cares and, and actually wants to be in the playoffs. This episode is brought to by Viori. When it comes to clothes that score high in both comfort and style, Viori is my MVP. Sunday performance joggers. Oh yeah. They have the perfect, I could watch a game and then go out to dinner vibe. And the meta pant, that's my number one. I need to look like I tried option. Get 20% off your first purchase at Viori.com slash Simmons and discover the versatility of Viori clothing. Exclusions apply. Visit the website for full terms and conditions. This episode is brought to by WeatherTech. Whether it's a pumpkin spice coffee that goes splat in your seat or a weekend tailgate that leaves your trunk full of gear and who

• 54:47Bill Simmons?

  knows what, you're going to want WeatherTech in your vehicle. Whether you call it fall, autumn, or spooky season, whether the mess is your fault, the kids, the dogs, or the weather's fault, you're going to want WeatherTech for American-made floor liners and a cargo liner that laugh in the face of fall weather. Visit weatherTech.com today. So Philly, Orlando, Miami, Charlotte, Atlanta, Milwaukee, pick three.

• 55:08Speaker 04

  That get into the playoffs?

• 55:10Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, just pick three right now for six, seven, eight.

• 55:12Speaker 04

  I'm not even gonna look at schedules. I will do Philly, Orlando.

• 55:18Speaker 04

  No, um, no, no. Ooh, this is actually hard.

• 55:21Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, I know.

• 55:22Speaker 04

  This is hard. I'll go, fuck it. I'm gonna go Philly, Miami, Charlotte. Orlando's out.

• 55:31Speaker 04

  Which would just be the most wildly disappointing outcome for almost any, any team.

• 55:36Bill Simmons?

  So I would have had Orlando in the Miami spot there. I think Philly and Charlotte, I have them in. And Charlotte, I can't wait to do the deep dive.

• 55:44Speaker 04

  I mean, Miami, just Miami is their way in. It's just, they just.

• 55:48Bill Simmons?

  That's the thing. Did you see the Houston, any of the Houston thing?

• 55:51Speaker 04

  I did. I saw the whole game.

• 55:54Bill Simmons?

  Until that game, I was like, they're gonna, you know, this is not gonna be the year for them, whatever.

• 56:01Bill Simmons?

  I don't know. They showed, they had a little feistiness in that game and we always see around now, there's one team that kinda gets hot or does whatever. And I don't know if they're that good, but that, I don't know, you watch them and the team kinda makes sense now that when they have everybody and if they can get hero going a little bit. So I would probably say Philly, Miami, Charlotte. Orlando, more likely they make the playoffs or they change coaches for the end of the season?

• 56:29Speaker 04

  I will go make, I will go make the playoffs because I think I, I, I just, the history of this front office is that they act slowly. And I think they would, they will now give, especially given how much time Franz in particular has missed. I think they give this thing till the end of the season.

• 56:45Bill Simmons?

  That was an awful loss today.

• 56:48Bill Simmons?

  They're up seven at halftime. They lose by 14. Bad. Um, Atlanta doesn't have their pick.

• 56:56Bill Simmons?

  So no real reason for them to throw it in. That's why I like, Milwaukee, if they were 28 and 31 instead of 26 and 33, I'd be more excited. I think they've, they're probably a little bit too far back, but I was thinking with Detroit, this is such a strange situation for them to be in, right? It's like they're gonna get the one seed. They might have the best record in the whole league. And the prize for getting the one seed could be their Philadelphia with Embiid and George back.

• 57:23Bill Simmons?

  Miami, the fucking Heat culture, weird voodoo Miami team. Charlotte, who's, who's been awesome for 32 games now, like a legitimate kind of offensive juggernaut. And none of those matchups are fun. Like, none of them.

• 57:41Speaker 04

  It's great. That's what the playoffs are supposed to be. Let's not have any pushovers. I mean, I think, I think.

• 57:47Bill Simmons?

  Orlando would be a pushover.

• 57:49Speaker 04

  I don't, I don't think they'd be a pushover. If they were fully healthy, I don't think they'd be a pushover. I think the Hawks would be a pushover for Detroit. I, I just think.

• 57:58Bill Simmons?

  Orlando's not going to be fully healthy and you know they're not going to be fully healthy. Cross that off.

• 58:03Speaker 04

  Unlikely. Uh, well, yeah.

• 58:05Bill Simmons?

  It's when Suggs plays two games in a row, it's like a shock.

• 58:08Speaker 04

  It's, it really makes you feel good when you turn on the Magic game and Suggs is playing things. I love watching Suggs play. I'm like, all right, this team just became 25% more entertaining to watch.

• 58:16Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 58:20Bill Simmons?

  Cleveland, who won today, barely.

• 58:24Bill Simmons?

  Another dorky combo. If you're Cleveland, do you care if you're just, you're the four seed, you play Toronto in round one? Do you care?

• 58:32Speaker 04

  No, I don't, I don't think you care about your seed at all. If you're Cleveland, you just need to get as healthy as possible and like, you know what you're being judged on and I, I, I wouldn't stress about three, four, one, two. All, you've had your ups and downs against all the teams currently above you in the standings. Just, you just gotta play.

• 58:49Bill Simmons?

  On Fanduel, they were plus one, 25 for the four seed and 11-1 for the five seed. If I'm them, I just want everyone running full steam, second week in April. I don't care if I'm playing Toronto and I don't mind playing Detroit.

• 59:07Speaker 04

  I don't think.

• 59:07Bill Simmons?

  I thought, uh, I think they would think they can beat Detroit. They have more offense, more stuff to bring to the table. Schroder, um, had really had a chip on his shoulder Friday night. I thought that, just to bring him off the bench, like possessed doing that crazy Schroder stuff, I thought would be fun, but I think that team, you know, the, the Sam Merrill piece has defrayed the fact that they missed on Deandre Hunter. Dean Wade is a, I guess, just a. Exit stage, right?

• 59:36Speaker 04

  What he put, what he put, first of all, he's been starting for them for the most part since, since the team got fully formed again. When he, when he plays decently, they are very hard to beat. He's, he's a minor role player, but they, they really like him and they keep giving him chances and they keep seeing him through these like months where it feels he hits like two threes in a month and then I'll have a game where it's like he's four of six from three and that's all he does other than play great defense. But, yeah, but it helps and, but they, at least they turned Hunter into Schroder and Keon Ellis. Like at least they, they, they got two guys that can play for them in that, in that deal.

• 1:00:13Bill Simmons?

  Body language doctor likes their chemistry too. I like some of the stuff I saw on the sidelines from Mitchell and Harden. Looks like Mitchell and Harden like each other. Honeymoon Harden is just, it's really kicked in.

• 1:00:23Speaker 04

  I don't know. Did you create honeymoon Harden? Is that yours?

• 1:00:26Bill Simmons?

  I think I did. I'll take it. Next topic.

• 1:00:31Bill Simmons?

  I texted this to you, so you're actually prepared for this one. Normally I like to sneak attack you with topics. Perimeter defenders better than the Thompsons?

• 1:00:39Speaker 04

  All right, let me bring up my list.

• 1:00:41Bill Simmons?

  I asked you to make a list. Who's actually better than these guys? Perimeter defenders, we're not talking big guys. We're not talking, uh, tiny guards or small.

• 1:00:49Speaker 04

  No, I don't. The, the answer is I'm not sure anybody is. Although I, I think they both are, no player is perfect, but I, I think here, so here are the names I wrote down. It's just like, these are the guys you at least have to consider.

• 1:01:03Bill Simmons?

  Tell me how many names you wrote down before you tell me the names.

• 1:01:05Speaker 04

  I wrote like 15 names down because I go big. I go big all the time, but I, I don't.

• 1:01:09Bill Simmons?

  I wrote down 10 names.

• 1:01:10Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 1:01:13Speaker 04

  Uh, Lou Dor.

• 1:01:13Bill Simmons?

  Who was?

• 1:01:15Speaker 04

  Caruso.

• 1:01:17Bill Simmons?

  Yep. They were not my first name.

• 1:01:19Speaker 04

  No, I'm just, I do, I just went down standings order.

• 1:01:22Bill Simmons?

  Okay.

• 1:01:22Speaker 04

  And I'm going to omit some ones that I don't think are serious. I think.

• 1:01:26Bill Simmons?

  Well, the good news is the fan bases won't take that personally at all if you forget somebody.

• 1:01:29Speaker 04

  So I'm just going to sort of like, I'm not going to mention Hugo Gonzalez after saying, I'm not mentioning, I'm sorry Hugo, you don't get into this one. The llama, the llama haircut doesn't get you in. I, I think Jada McDaniels deserves a word.

• 1:01:43Speaker 04

  Derrick White doesn't have the size, but.

• 1:01:47Bill Simmons?

  I left him off because I think there are certain guys that he probably can't guard.

• 1:01:51Speaker 04

  Uh, I still think Pete Kawhi needs to be on this list. He can't bring it every night, but when he really, really brings it, he, he might still be the best perimeter defender in the NBA for a, a game or a quarter.

• 1:02:05Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:02:05Speaker 04

  Dyson Daniels.

• 1:02:07Bill Simmons?

  So I left him off.

• 1:02:10Speaker 04

  You're running out a guy and I don't mind leaving him off. Like you run out, like I think Peyton Watson could, could get into this conversation. OG Ananobe.

• 1:02:18Bill Simmons?

  Had him. I had Kamara.

• 1:02:21Speaker 04

  Kamara's on my list. That's a good one.

• 1:02:24Bill Simmons?

  I had Scotty Barnes.

• 1:02:25Speaker 04

  He's on my list too. I was waiting. I wanted you to bring up Scotty Barnes, um, but I, I had him on my list.

• 1:02:31Bill Simmons?

  Here's my descending order. I had McDaniel's first. I had the Dorton Crusoe combo, Castle, Ananobe. I had Kamara, Kawhi, Barnes and Bridges all next to each other. And I had A and Edwards because I think when he really wants to guard for a possession, I think he's as good as anybody. I'm not, I'm not saying he's doing it all game. If it's 30 seconds left and I need to play defense and I have him and McDaniel's, I just saw it. I went to the Clipper game the other night. And, and the reason I have McDaniel's so high is he snatched Ben Matheran's soul from his body for two hours. He just, he, he reached inside his heart and pulled it out. And by the fourth quarter, I, Matheran, who's like a really confident guy, like walks around with his chest out.

• 1:03:16Bill Simmons?

  And it really seems alpha eight was just like deer in the headlights and, uh, couldn't, couldn't solve it. McDaniel's is terrifying and he's the only one I've seen in person, other than when Kawhi gets into that, I will now take the ball when he gets into that mode.

• 1:03:33Bill Simmons?

  He's the only one I've seen like on the level with the Thompsons. Castle, even though he guarded Durant, which was one of the great things that Grant random things of the season. I'm not sure if there's certain guys that could he guard bigger guys like Jalen Brown? Bigger physical forwards. I'm not sure he's big enough to guard those guys, but McDaniels is.

• 1:03:52Speaker 04

  But you cannot say enough. I mean, you cannot say enough about how good Castle and Harper are as defenders. This soon into their career because the experience factor, although the Thompson twins are not super experienced either. Is what makes it hard to put them on like this sort of apex level. But those guys, I mean, they guard up in size so well. You put them on, they were on Brandon Ingram in a, in a recent Spurs Raptors game. Dylan Harper closed the game on Brandon Ingram and kind of clapped them a little bit. And I'd mentioned how Castle guarded Cat and Brunson in the same game. Like they are up for the Durant game. I'd forgotten about when he kind of bodied up Durant and like Durant was like, what's happening? Is this a foul? What's, what's going on?

• 1:04:35Speaker 04

  They, they are big and rangy and they are want all the smoke. Like those guys are so far ahead of the curve defensively. It's crazy.

• 1:04:45Bill Simmons?

  Jalen Brown is in the vicinity for this. If it's one of those games where he's really fired up to play defense. And it, but it's bigger guys. It's like Luca type guys. It's, it's the more physical type of wings that he's really good at defending. And, and really has been for the last few years.

• 1:05:01Speaker 04

  I would not respectfully not put Jalen Brown in this conversation.

• 1:05:04Bill Simmons?

  I'm just saying certain games. The other one, and I thought about this the other day at this, at this Cooper game I was at. I always like, first of all, three inches taller than I was prepared for in person. I don't know why the TV made me think he was like six, one, but I felt like he was the same height as Anthony Edwards. I could figure it out. Big, big shoulders and just, um, when they had.

• 1:05:28Bill Simmons?

  Him, McDaniels and Edwards, all out there at the same time against a team that really didn't have a point guard. Chris Dunn was the only sort of point guard on the Clippers. Everyone was terrified to bring the ball. Nobody was happy about it. But I thought that was interesting.

• 1:05:44Speaker 04

  He's a great fit. You know, I mean, you know, who's furious right now?

• 1:05:48Bill Simmons?

  Who?

• 1:05:49Speaker 04

  Dillon Brooks is furious. Dillon Brooks is gonna pick up the rare podcast technical for arguing. So he's just off the list. He's hurt. We don't even consider him.

• 1:05:57Bill Simmons?

  I had him honorable mention. He's hurt. We may not see him again this season. Well, this leads to the next question. Pick one as a defender.

• 1:06:07Speaker 04

  Of who?

• 1:06:08Bill Simmons?

  Houston Thompson or Detroit Thompson?

• 1:06:12Speaker 04

  Houston Thompson. I think Houston Thompson is ahead of Duke. I don't like that. I don't like doing the brothers thing. It makes me sad to pit the brothers against each other like this, but it makes it hurts my soul. But I'm picking Amen Thompson. I think, I think he scales down positionally a little easier than Asar does. Asar might guard up a little bit better, but I think Amen Thompson can guard anybody and he just, his speed. I mean, they're both unbelievable, but I'd pick Amen.

• 1:06:36Bill Simmons?

  So I give him a slight edge as well. I think Asar is the single scariest guy to bring the ball up against. Like when he's really in, I'm gonna try to get a steal as you bring the ball up mode, I think he's number one. Who's scarier than him?

• 1:06:53Speaker 04

  You know, I was watching a game. It was a tank off game and I watched it because I just, this is what I do. I watched Grizzlies Kings.

• 1:07:00Bill Simmons?

  Oh.

• 1:07:01Speaker 04

  Scottie Pippen Jr.

• 1:07:02Bill Simmons?

  Oh, he's another good one.

• 1:07:03Speaker 04

  I shit you not.

• 1:07:04Bill Simmons?

  Didn't he have three steals in a row or something?

• 1:07:06Speaker 04

  Four, four consecutive steals while the Kings were bringing the ball up. And it was almost like, let's just cancel the game. If this is what's gonna happen, send everybody home, refund the tickets. It was a great night out for Scottie Pippen Jr. Game over.

• 1:07:22Bill Simmons?

  See, that's another guy. Like, why wasn't, why didn't a contender try to get him?

• 1:07:26Speaker 04

  He's been injured the whole year.

• 1:07:28Bill Simmons?

  I don't care. Like they, they're just, it's like free second round pick for him, right? Memphis turning down a second round pick for Scottie Pippen? I don't think so. And he's been hurt most of the year. I wanted to see him in a playoff series. Okay, next question. So the All-NBA, it feels like we've separated to Jokic, SGA, Cade and Wemby are levitating in that top group now. And then we have the next five of Ant and Mitchell and Jalen and Luca and Maxey in some order.

• 1:08:00Speaker 04

  Ant, Mitchell, I'm writing this down.

• 1:08:03Bill Simmons?

  Ant, Mitchell, Jalen, Luca, Maxey are in the mix.

• 1:08:08Bill Simmons?

  There's a first team spot open, but then the next question is, I only listed nine guys. Who is the inside track for the 10th spot? If I gave you Brunson, Kawhi, Jamal Murray, Durin, Durant, Barnes, Amen Thompson, et cetera, et cetera. Who's your 10th, who's the 10th best player in the league right now from an All-NBA standpoint in your opinion?

• 1:08:32Speaker 04

  Assuming eligibility, Kawhi Leonard.

• 1:08:37Bill Simmons?

  Okay, I agree with you.

• 1:08:38Speaker 04

  And he's got, like, and then I put Brunson next. So Brunson, I, when I did this, I had Brunson, Maxey, I had Maxey third team.

• 1:08:47Bill Simmons?

  Oh, so you have Maxey out of that group and Brunson in the group?

• 1:08:50Speaker 04

  I had, I had Kawhi second team when I did my draft of NBA teams, so.

• 1:08:54Bill Simmons?

  All right, so there's nine plus Brunson, Kawhi, Murray and Durin, that's 13.

• 1:09:02Bill Simmons?

  Which means there's two spots left for everybody. Not to mention, we might lose some eligibility guys. We've already lost Curry. Booker's at 16 now. Not that he was gonna make it anyway, but he's probably getting bounced. Jokic only has two left. Wemby has four left. Kawhi, I think, has four. Abdi is gonna be out. We might not have enough All-NBA guys is I guess my bigger point.

• 1:09:23Speaker 04

  Well, you didn't mention Durant.

• 1:09:26Bill Simmons?

  I didn't mention Durant.

• 1:09:28Speaker 04

  I mean, you gotta mention Durant.

• 1:09:32Speaker 04

  You're not gonna put Durant on third team All-NBA? You're gonna put other, okay, I mean.

• 1:09:38Bill Simmons?

  I didn't say I wouldn't.

• 1:09:40Speaker 04

  Were you on the text thread? Were you mentioned?

• 1:09:43Bill Simmons?

  Wasn't. I I take stuff like the the whatever the hell happened in All-Star Weekend, I think has to count in your All-NBA candidacy.

• 1:09:51Speaker 04

  Well, you know what else counts?

• 1:09:52Bill Simmons?

  Story of the year.

• 1:09:53Speaker 04

  Twenty-six.

• 1:09:54Bill Simmons?

  I get it.

• 1:09:55Speaker 04

  On fifty, forty, ninety shooting.

• 1:09:57Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, he's I had him. I have thirteen guys listed. Then look, I'll even show you. Bubble Durant, top guy. So he would be on my thirteen if the season ended today.

• 1:10:10Speaker 04

  You didn't even mention him.

• 1:10:11Bill Simmons?

  Why? He's in my bubble list with Durant, Barnes, Thompson. I mentioned him as a bubble guy.

• 1:10:16Speaker 04

  Okay.

• 1:10:16Bill Simmons?

  Um, and I don't know if any, the only person that I think the nerds might take and grab a hold of and grab the flame and start bringing it outside the the wall. I could see a Chet momentum just for the defensive impact. We need two OKC guys in the All-NBA. I could see that unfolding. I don't know how you feel about that one.

• 1:10:41Speaker 04

  Yeah, I mean, I I could certainly see it unfolding because there is always that groundswell of, well, this team has to have X amount of people, which I don't really believe in. I just, I've been, I've been wanting him to do a little bit more on offense in some of these games without Shay and Jalen Williams and A.J. Mitchell and na, na, na, na. Chet hasn't scored twenty points in a game since January twenty-seventh. It's just been too many, like thirteen, fifteen, seventeen. And this is like, I look, the defense is unimpeachable. He's unbelievable. The fact that he can shoot threes is a huge spacing boon for their offense. He's amazing. I just think this level of conversation, there's only fifteen spots. I, for me,

• 1:11:23Speaker 04

  I, there's twenty games left, so we'll see. He's just, he's out on the outside looking in, but not by much. It's not like a huge slight, you know, just player nineteen or eighteen or seventeen.

• 1:11:35Bill Simmons?

  He's an All-Star, not an All-NBA guy.

• 1:11:37Speaker 04

  You haven't mentioned one guy that I, maybe you mentioned him when you listed him off and I I missed it, but did you mention Jalen Johnson?

• 1:11:44Bill Simmons?

  I had him in the bubble list.

• 1:11:45Speaker 04

  Okay.

• 1:11:47Bill Simmons?

  Shay is minus 260 for MVP. Jokic is plus 450. Cade is 10 to 1. Inexplicable because if SGA misses five more games, I think Cade's gonna win the MVP. I can't, I can't bet on it because I-

• 1:12:01Speaker 04

  Over Wemby?

• 1:12:02Bill Simmons?

  Wemby's at 25 to 1 and I think the Spurs would have to basically lose two more games the rest of the year and be the ones that have the best record in the league for it to be a serious combo. I'm not even sure some games if he's the best guy in the game for his team, even though I know like the Detroit game Monday, what he did defensively was incredible, all that stuff. Luca's dropped to 100 to 1 after a pretty tough week for Luca.

• 1:12:28Speaker 04

  100 to 1?

• 1:12:29Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:12:30Speaker 04

  Wow.

• 1:12:31Bill Simmons?

  Oh, that's my next dorky thing I wanted to bring up to you.

• 1:12:35Bill Simmons?

  And then we're gonna do the Charlotte deep dive.

• 1:12:39Bill Simmons?

  Luca's MVP finishes by year. This is his eighth year.

• 1:12:45Bill Simmons?

  Didn't finish first year, fourth, second year, sixth, third year, fifth, eighth, third. Didn't get any votes last year. This is year eight and he's not gonna be in the top four. So he's only had one third place finish and one fourth place finish.

• 1:13:07Bill Simmons?

  This will be after eight years. If I had told you this during his rookie year as we watched how good he was, would you have ever have guessed this?

• 1:13:15Speaker 04

  No, and in fact, I feel like I've picked him as my preseason MVP at least twice. He's been like a preseason odds on favorite to win MVP maybe more times than that. And so, yeah, I realized the whole conversation is now shifting into, and there was a whole, will he ever win a championship conversation this year that I feel like is a little bit premature. But yeah, I am surprised. Part of it is that, you know, if you look at his game log, he's only cracked 70 games a couple of times. There's some shortened COVID-related shortened seasons in there, but it is surprising. I thought he would have won an MVP by now. I thought he would have won, let me, I thought he would have won an MVP for the Dallas Mavericks by now. So everything about what's happening is a little bit surprising.

• 1:13:58Bill Simmons?

  Good point. Yeah, if we, when we're moving into the 2020s and if we had had a who is the most likely guy to win one MVP this decade draft, I think he would have been the first pick.

• 1:14:08Speaker 04

  It's just tailor made like he's the whole offense is going to revolve around him. His passing does make most types of players better. He's had playoff success basically since he came into the league. He's been a good playoff player like going back to the bubble, et cetera. It just seemed like absolute no brainer. You like you'd be shocked if a guy like this didn't win an MVP.

• 1:14:29Bill Simmons?

  He's 286 and 210 regular season or 287 now 26 and 29 in the playoffs. Never has won.

• 1:14:40Bill Simmons?

  I think 52 games is his highest with Dallas.

• 1:14:43Speaker 04

  Cause he's missed a decent amount of games. He's missed the kinds of numbers of games that turn a 55 win team into a 47 win team.

• 1:14:53Bill Simmons?

  All right, quick break. This episode is brought to you by Fire TV. You ever sit down ready to watch the game only to search and scroll endlessly? If so, you need Fire TV. It shows you are live games from your favorite teams all in one place right on the home screen. No more searching. Just sit down and turn on Fire TV. Separate subscriptions may be required. Feature and content availability may vary. This episode is brought to you by Sony Pictures Classics. A perfect crime film, says the Daily Beast. John Tortore gives a career best performance. Don't miss the acclaimed new thriller, The Only Living Pickpocket in New York. Tortore stars as an aging master pickpocket. Whose latest score puts him in the crosshairs of a ruthless crime family.

• 1:15:36Bill Simmons?

  It's also starring Giancarlo Esposito, Tatiana Maslany, Will Price and our guy, Steve Buscemi. See the film that the LA Times calls instantly classic, The Only Living Pickpocket in New York. Now playing in theaters nationwide.

• 1:15:52Bill Simmons?

  All right, it's time. Hornets deep dive. We're really doing this. I'm going to start us off with some Hornets facts. You know all of this.

• 1:16:03Speaker 04

  I'm just going to sit back and soak it in.

• 1:16:06Bill Simmons?

  They haven't made the playoffs in 10 years.

• 1:16:10Bill Simmons?

  Last time they made the playoffs was the last year of Barack Obama's second term. Since their expansion comeback year in 2005, three playoff appearances.

• 1:16:22Bill Simmons?

  As a franchise, because for whatever reason, we include the 1988 to 2002, whatever. They haven't won a playoff round since 2002, which was also the year they moved.

• 1:16:34Bill Simmons?

  They don't have a single number that they could retire this century.

• 1:16:39Bill Simmons?

  Unless you want to talk yourself into a Kemba Walker night, just for the emotional night, or Al Jefferson night?

• 1:16:46Speaker 04

  Kemba would be the one.

• 1:16:49Bill Simmons?

  They haven't made the Eastern Finals once, even going back to the Morning LJ era.

• 1:16:56Bill Simmons?

  Just in the last few years.

• 1:16:59Bill Simmons?

  They drafted Shay Gildes Alexander 11th and immediately traded him for Miles Bridges in two seconds. I forgot this happened.

• 1:17:06Speaker 04

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:17:09Bill Simmons?

  They drafted Jalen Durin and immediately traded him for a future first in three seconds. And the future first became Nick Smith.

• 1:17:16Speaker 04

  Junior.

• 1:17:18Bill Simmons?

  They took Saloon one pick before Donovan Klingon.

• 1:17:23Bill Simmons?

  They spent a lottery pick on James Booknight.

• 1:17:25Speaker 04

  So it's a thing that happened.

• 1:17:28Bill Simmons?

  Last year, they were 19 and 63.

• 1:17:32Bill Simmons?

  They started out 4 and 14 this season, so they were 23 and 77 in 100 games over two seasons.

• 1:17:41Bill Simmons?

  And since then, something magical has happened. They're now 30 and 31. Their last 32 games, Zach Lowe, 21 and 11. Their first overall net rating, plus 9.8 in the last 32 games of any NBA team. First in offensive rating, 121.4, which would be nearing the all time high. They have 21 wins, 15 of 21 were by double digits, including their last four in a row. And they're 14 and 3 in their last 17 games. I have more, but let's all start there. This has been the most dramatic turnaround in season of anyone that I can remember. Any other time this has happened, there's been signs like OKC, the year when OKC became like a 500 team. It's like, yeah, I could see this building all year.

• 1:18:25Bill Simmons?

  This was like, this is like a fun league pass team that will never actually be a playing team this year. There's no way. And yet they're going to be a playing team and might even win the division.

• 1:18:33Speaker 04

  The division, I forgot about the division. The Southeast Division.

• 1:18:38Bill Simmons?

  They could win the division. Right now, the odds in the division. They are, oh, they're plus 460 Orlando's plus 135 and Miami's plus 155 on Fanduel. I still like Charlotte to win the division, but.

• 1:18:49Speaker 04

  Look.

• 1:18:50Bill Simmons?

  There you go. So you go.

• 1:18:52Speaker 04

  Well, I just go like.

• 1:18:54Bill Simmons?

  Well, I could give you a couple more stats if you want, but.

• 1:18:58Speaker 04

  First of all, I just, I, I implore. Whatever team wins this division, do not hang a banner, even you, Charlotte. Do not hang a banner.

• 1:19:08Bill Simmons?

  Charlie, if they go 44 and 38 win the division, I'm allowing the banner.

• 1:19:13Speaker 04

  No banner. You should be, any team that hangs division banners should be shamed. At all times. Um, I'll, I'll, I'll give you this.

• 1:19:24Speaker 04

  The Ball, Miller, Knippel, Bridges, Diabate lineup. Is plus 179 in 281 minutes. That's like, that is. Preposterous. That is the number.

• 1:19:41Bill Simmons?

  That's lineup of death.

• 1:19:42Speaker 04

  That is the number one plus minus for any lineup in the NBA. Number two is the Pistons starting lineup at plus 131. So 48 points quote worse than the Hornets and they've played almost twice as many minutes. Plus 179 in 281 minutes is insane.

• 1:20:04Bill Simmons?

  And somebody that wasn't playing for like, what, the first six weeks, basically?

• 1:20:08Speaker 04

  It, it's a perfect storm of. It, all the attention on Knippel and he's been unbelievable and I don't want to, I don't want to besmirch anything about your illegitimate son. But he's been this constant metronome of productivity the entire season. Ball up and down, but Miller has leveled up and stayed there for like a month and a half to two months now. And something about the way Diabate fits with this group of the starting five. It's a perfect storm of Miller, Diabate, LaMelo, kind of chilling a little bit with some of the crazy stuff and just be playing a simpler game in a lot of ways.

• 1:20:48Speaker 04

  It's all clicked together and.

• 1:20:51Speaker 04

  I mean, we're what you just said 30, 35, 40 games into this being like, this is a real team. This is, this is, I don't quite know where we're heading with it, but it's a, it's a real team. And as you're going to get into, the way this has happened is incredibly unusual in modern NBA history.

• 1:21:10Bill Simmons?

  The crazy thing about LaMelo, because if you weren't really following or watching the games and or even looking at the stats that much, you would think like, oh, it's LaMelo's healthy and the team took off. He only plays like 27 minutes a game. He's in a weird way. I don't want to call him a luxury, but this is really built around Khan and Miller and Diabate. And then LaMelo, when he's good, they become almost unstoppable. Now they have this Kobe, the Kobe White trade, which we did the trade deadline thing. It was like, oh, cool. I like Kobe White more than Collin Sexton. It's a really important trade for them. For a variety of reasons. One, which I totally forgot until I was watching the game on Saturday, like, he's a North Carolina guy, like, Ray Williams was there

• 1:21:53Bill Simmons?

  to see Kobe White. And Kobe White's like, loves being in Carolina. He's, he's like, they're going to be able to re-sign him and they're going to make him like a part of stuff. Kobe White's stats, last three years, he was 19, 5, 4, 37% from three, made almost three threes a game. He's like, the perfect guard to just add to this. And also, more importantly, gives them LaMelo insurance. If LaMelo ever gets, gets wacky, or gets hurt, or anything, right?

• 1:22:21Speaker 04

  Well, I mean, Collin Sexton was playing really well for them. And you could probably find the stats for him are not so dissimilar from what you just said about Kobe White. In fact, they're not-

• 1:22:29Bill Simmons?

  I know, but I'm talking, I'm talking styles of player, though. I just like Kobe White's game more. He's more of a basketball player.

• 1:22:35Speaker 04

  He's a bigger, more dynamic, more diverse kind of player than Collin Sexton.

• 1:22:40Bill Simmons?

  Who can play off the ball, on the ball, like, he can, I just think he fits better for what they're doing. He's a little bigger, he's got a little more defensively, I think he can help them. And I think that when they play that lineup of death you mentioned, but then you can move Kobe into the LaMelo spot, it's still a really good team.

• 1:22:58Speaker 04

  We can't call it the lineup of death, because the death lineup is taken and it's the worst lineup.

• 1:23:02Bill Simmons?

  I'm just trying to give Charlotte as many bones as possible.

• 1:23:05Speaker 04

  It's sitting there in front of us. How about the buzzsaw?

• 1:23:09Speaker 04

  The buzz.

• 1:23:09Bill Simmons?

  The buzzsaw lineup.

• 1:23:10Speaker 04

  Something like.

• 1:23:11Bill Simmons?

  The buzzsaw lineup. I like it.

• 1:23:12Speaker 04

  Just the first draft. We can workshop it.

• 1:23:16Bill Simmons?

  So you mentioned something on one of your pods the other day and I can't remember. I think you were talking maybe about Detroit.

• 1:23:24Bill Simmons?

  Maybe it was a Lego. You were talking about Detroit only has one guy that can really create a shot. But they have all these guys who know how to cut, do all these things and they can kind of patch it together. But really they only have one guy who can create a shot and you could feel at the game on Friday night against Cleveland when Cade fouled out, which for some reason has happened more than once this season. Cade fouled out and it's like, oh shit, what do we do now? And they tried to patch it together.

• 1:23:48Speaker 04

  By the way, you know, part of the reason why Cade gets in foul trouble here and there, because he tries hard on defense and he tries to make plays on defense. Like that's part, that's part of it. Like.

• 1:23:56Bill Simmons?

  Well, he doesn't get the respect either from, uh, I don't think he gets the superstar respect. The Hornets have five guys who can create a shot. Like for real. Khan can do it. Brandon Miller, obviously. LaMelo can get by anybody. Kobe White could create a shot. Miles Bridges can create a shot. So anytime it's like eight seconds left, play screwed up or whatever, wherever the ball is, somebody can kind of do something with it or you can set a screen. That's one thing. The threes are out of control. They, they're averaging 17.1 made threes during this 32 game streak where they're 21 11. 17.1. They're, they're shooting 43 a game. They're 40% from three, which leads the league.

• 1:24:38Bill Simmons?

  But they're also second in rebounds, which is nice because Canipper rebounds, LaMelo rebounds, Bridges, every guy on the team goes and grabs rebounds.

• 1:24:48Bill Simmons?

  And then when you just think about.

• 1:24:51Bill Simmons?

  If I know I'm getting 17 threes a game.

• 1:24:55Bill Simmons?

  I can kind of have a bad game and still be in the game. You know, like I can still hang around. I can still, I could be down nine and then all of a sudden I'm down three. I don't know. And it, and they have three 20 point scorers. I really believe in this team. And then we didn't even mention Grant Williams. Who came back, the shooting stats aren't great, but they kind of needed one more glue guy who kind of knows where to go and how to move on defense. So they have LaMelo and Con and Miller and Bridges, they have White, they have Williams, Diabate and Kalkbrenner and Josh Green, I guess.

• 1:25:31Speaker 04

  Josh Green has given them really nice minutes.

• 1:25:33Bill Simmons?

  As the 10th guy as their swing defender.

• 1:25:35Speaker 04

  And he and Cian James are kind of the wing guys that come off.

• 1:25:39Bill Simmons?

  Kind of the wild card wings, right.

• 1:25:40Speaker 04

  But Josh Green has been the best version of what Josh Green is like, you know, he's not going to shoot much, he's going to play some defense and hit corner threes and move the ball and he's done all of that for them.

• 1:25:50Bill Simmons?

  Do you value this, nine in a row on the road?

• 1:25:53Speaker 04

  Love road wins. I'm a sucker for road wins.

• 1:25:56Bill Simmons?

  All right, I'm about to, I'm about to take this up a level to crazy town, but do you want to say something normal before I do that?

• 1:26:04Speaker 04

  I do, and I want to delight you in saying it. Cause you mentioned, first of all, I do, I think you undersold LaMelo a little bit in saying the team is built around Knippel and Miller and LaMelo kind of floats in as a bonus. All the lineup data suggests that their offense is awesome when LaMelo's on the floor. And now this may change with White because they can keep two of these four guys on the floor at all times, which you choose for them. But their offense without LaMelo has not been very good. And even like some, I don't have it all sorted in front of me, but I did a couple of weeks ago, like even like the Miller and Knippel, no LaMelo lineup was just so, so at one point. But anyway, so I think you undersold him a little bit, but I'm just.

• 1:26:41Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, I was projecting the White being able to do a reasonable facsimile of a lead guard for them.

• 1:26:46Speaker 04

  I just think his level of creation is unbelievable, his knack for floaters, he's getting, he's trying to get to the rim more. But I, and you mentioned the shooting, like LaMelo is an elite three-point shooter. It's just masked by the fact that he's took so many difficult threes that deflated his percentage, but he's an elite three-point shooter.

• 1:27:04Bill Simmons?

  Right.

• 1:27:05Speaker 04

  And everyone knows Knippel's a great shooter and just said, they just sort of just, it's like at the end of the sentence about, and they have this Knippel is unbelievable shooting. He is, this is one of the greatest shooting seasons anyone has ever had in the history of basketball. And I just, I did the basketball referencing for you. There are.

• 1:27:28Speaker 04

  Six seasons in the history of the NBA, six individual player seasons and Knippel is on pace to be seven and he's almost going to do it this week. 2,000 minutes, so you can't be like a role player who comes in and pops threes. Forty-three percent or better from three, he's at 44% right now. At least eight threes per 36 minutes attempted. Six player seasons total. Here are the six. Steph Curry, Steph Curry, Steph Curry, Klay Thompson, Desmond Bain, Duncan Robinson, and at 1,900 plus minutes about to be Con Knippel.

• 1:28:07Bill Simmons?

  Wow. And the Klay Thompson is the comp because that's who he reminds me of like a Klay Thompson coaching tree kind of player the way, I don't, he just reminds me of him with some of the stuff he does, but he moves kind of smartly in the paint and stuff. He does stuff Klay never did. Klay was always around the fringes for the most part. Con also has like this little John Havlicek side when he can like muscle in and get like a little 10 footer, 12 footer. But when they set those picks, it really reminds me of Klay. Those little like quick flare picks when all of a sudden he's wide open for a split second, he makes them.

• 1:28:44Speaker 04

  They move their, they move their best offensive players around in such creative ways in, in all over the floor. Charles Lee and his staff deserve a lot of credit. They've really maximized three guys who you look at them and think, well, teams should be able to switch a lot of actions between these guys. And it's just, they've made it really hard to keep track of everybody.

• 1:29:02Bill Simmons?

  All right, are you ready?

• 1:29:05Speaker 04

  I, I, I'm so excited.

• 1:29:07Bill Simmons?

  We're going to crazy town.

• 1:29:08Speaker 04

  Let's go.

• 1:29:09Bill Simmons?

  The 2013 Warriors.

• 1:29:12Speaker 04

  Okay.

• 1:29:15Bill Simmons?

  Forty-seven and 35, 40% from three led the league, upset Denver in round one, lost to San Antonio in round two. We were working at, uh, Greenland together.

• 1:29:27Bill Simmons?

  League was not as good. That 2013 Warriors team with those two guys and David Lee, basically. Was Bogan on that team yet? He was.

• 1:29:36Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 1:29:40Bill Simmons?

  Just the league just wasn't as good and that was probably a 41-41 team now.

• 1:29:46Speaker 04

  That was a 51 win team.

• 1:29:49Bill Simmons?

  No, they were 47 and 35.

• 1:29:50Speaker 04

  12-13, you're talking 12-13.

• 1:29:52Bill Simmons?

  I'm talking that first Warriors season.

• 1:29:54Speaker 04

  That's the team, yeah.

• 1:29:57Bill Simmons?

  Curry was 22 a game, Klay was 17 a game. Combined, there were 6.1 made threes. People didn't shoot the threes as much back then. As that season evolved, we were like, something's like really here. This is headed somewhere. And then when they beat Denver was what 56 wins that year, a tie lost team? Igudala's on that team, George Carl was a big upset. And then they lost to the Spurs in the next round, but Curry, everything about it felt like something special happened. So that summer, they make a big move for Igudala. They had Draymond on the team as a rookie, but he blossomed in the second year. They go 51 and 31. They lose to the Clips in seven. Curry and Klay jump up and then the next season was the season.

• 1:30:40Bill Simmons?

  My crazy town question for you is could this Khan, Miller, Lamelo threesome be the same kind of foundation that Curry and Klay were for that Warriors team? And could you actually like, see a path for this nucleus with some of the caps, some of the picks, which I want to go through, adding one more guy? Could this be like, a real playoff team a year from now?

• 1:31:04Speaker 04

  There's no question it could be a real playoff team a year from now. And I do think adding one more guy has to be part of the recipe. But I think the Warriors, you're now copying them to what becomes an all time incredible team.

• 1:31:18Bill Simmons?

  That's why I said we're going to crazy town.

• 1:31:19Speaker 04

  A nucleus for you have to include Draymond in the can this be Steph and Klay?

• 1:31:24Bill Simmons?

  But I'm saying that that first year, Draymond's not, he's an, it's just Curry and Klay basically with Bogut and Harrison Barnes is on there at that point. But it's not Draymond. We didn't know who Draymond was as a potential like dynasty guy.

• 1:31:37Speaker 04

  That's the year to point to because. More than the regular season and even more than the Denver series because Gallinari gets hurt right before that series and it kind of upends their team. The Spurs loss, that was the final proof of concept for me. I remember vividly thinking it at the time, writing about it at the time, talking to people with the Warriors the next season and beyond about that series. And, and the, remember the first two games in that series were in San Antonio and they were wild games. The Warriors split the games and then Steph gets hurt in the series and kind of limbs through it. Bogut gets hurt in that series and kind of limbs through it. They lose in six. But just like the gold standard of NBA defense ran in to something that they didn't know what to do with.

• 1:32:19Speaker 04

  They just were like, we're, we don't, this guy's pulling up from 30 feet and we're supposed to defend this. Like this is not how we were told basketball was. That series was the series where the Warriors became the Warriors to me. And then it just, it just snowballed from there. This team is going to be an awesome offensive team. They could be a 50 win team next year. I don't think that's out of bounds at all. Like that kind of leap, this is a real thing. That kind of leap is there. I do think one more add is, is, is key. And then the Draymond thing I bring up only because the Warriors were an elite defensive team right away when they started to play him. And I think that's the big question for this team is how do they become a top 10?

• 1:32:58Bill Simmons?

  That really wasn't until the, the 67 win season when Lee got hurt. And then Draymond's minutes went way up, right? That was, that was the year when it bloomed. Well, that was year three of this.

• 1:33:10Speaker 04

  The David Lee injury was a, a big part of their team. 13, 14, they were third in defense. 12, 13, they were 12th in defense.

• 1:33:20Bill Simmons?

  Right.

• 1:33:22Speaker 04

  The Bogut Ellis trade obviously also changed the trajectory of their team. But that's the question for the, for, and maybe Diabate has answered some, but they're up to 17th in defense now. And this did not look like a team that could be an average defense. So they're trending the right way.

• 1:33:36Bill Simmons?

  Well, how about this? In that 32 game streak, the 21 and 11, they're eighth net rating.

• 1:33:41Speaker 04

  Trending the right way. And Kalkbrenner off the bench is a real guy defensively. Like he's a, he could be, he's a problem defensively. The perimeter guys will all get better and. They are, they know exactly what they want to be defensively. So they're, they're number one in opponent free throw rate and number one in defensive rebounding, which means they do not beat themselves. You have to beat them and they are, they allow the second fewest corner threes in the league. And I said this way early in the season, like all these numbers have been there since the start of the season and just the other mistakes they were making were, were sabotaging their defense. But like the groundwork was laid for a competent defensive team. They had a structure. They had things they wanted to accomplish and they were starting

• 1:34:24Speaker 04

  to accomplish them. And now the other parts of their defense have caught up and their offense has completely exploded. But that's the question to me is can they become like a top 10 to 11 defense in the NBA? And if they can, I think, well, I don't see why 50 wins is out of bounds next year. Why would it be? And that would be a huge jump. What are they going to win this year? I don't know. Maybe they could win 44 this year, 42, but yeah, 50 something next year. Why not?

• 1:34:48Bill Simmons?

  I've been pretty good over the years at identifying when some team has, like just being a year early on somebody. I remember the OKC, the year they finished 40 and 42, right? It was the 22, 23 season. Now, it didn't take a rocket science to think that a team with a bunch of draft picks and Shay, we knew at that point was going to be special, like that they were going to be really good. But I remember, and I remember talking about the podcast at the time, they played LeBron in the game when LeBron broke the record. And watching them and how they handled that whole experience and they just kind of wanted to keep the game going so they could, because they were trying to beat the Lakers. Like

• 1:35:30Bill Simmons?

  they, they just had a calmness and a competitiveness in them. I was like, there's something really here. I feel that way about the Hornets. I felt that way about those Warriors teams in that 13 season where I was like, there's something actually really here. This isn't just like a fun story. Like there's, there's like something special brewing and I really feel that way with this Hornets team. I don't think this is like, I know that they're not even 500 yet. They're 30 and 31, but I think they have the foundation, especially the white trade. They have, I don't know if Bridges is there long-term or not, and I assume LaMelo is. But they have this Dallas pick that's top two protected in 27.

• 1:36:08Speaker 04

  It's a great asset.

• 1:36:09Bill Simmons?

  They have a Miami pick that's top 14 protected this year and unprotected in 27.

• 1:36:14Speaker 04

  The Rozier pick.

• 1:36:17Bill Simmons?

  What is their Igudala move is my question because

• 1:36:23Bill Simmons?

  Golden State came out of that 47 and 35 season. Draymond wasn't Draymond yet. They basically had Curry and Klay and some Barnes.

• 1:36:31Bill Simmons?

  But their big move is Igudala. They dumped some contracts. They added two first round picks. They went and got this amazing fourth banana for them and that made their team go up a level. Could it be Giannis? Could it be Bam Adebayo? Could it be Anthony Davis? Could it be Trey Murphy? Could it be somebody like Isaiah Hartenstein? Okay, so he's just trying to get off his money. It's that there's not as many candidates as you think, but I think that's the next step for this.

• 1:36:58Speaker 04

  I think

• 1:36:59Bill Simmons?

  It's a playoff warrior guy that can come in and be like one of your five guys.

• 1:37:04Speaker 04

  Well, and they have time. Like it's funny how how fast this goes in the NBA because this is a feel good story right now. And and you know, they they don't have all three of Knipple and Miller and LaMelo on max deals until 28, 29. And then they will, or I'm sorry, until 29, 30. That's the end of Knipple's rookie deal. So they have time. But they got to use these next two or three years to take advantage of that salary cap space and that cap tax apron flexibility that will go away. If and when all three of those guys are on max deals. And get someone in the door who can help them win now because they're going to be ready to win big. And I do think it needs to be

• 1:37:44Speaker 04

  somebody who I don't want to, I don't even think you need to lean defense. I just think you need to be a good defensive player and fill some gaps on defense because that's and probably have some size, but but they should absolutely be active. Trying to find like they were one of my favorite just for total for fun. I didn't think they would do it, nor do I think they should do it. But like Anthony Davis popped into my head when Nico Harrison got fired like too expensive, too old, but Bam is a good name. I don't think the Heat ever want to trade Bam, but like a guy. A guy like that who who defends, but doesn't gum up your offense, which is obviously hard to find, but they're going to be on the hunt for somebody because these three guys together. There's this is a real thing, what they're doing offensively.

• 1:38:27Bill Simmons?

  They have all their own first round picks plus those two other ones. The other piece is new owners, which is similar to the Warriors situation, right? The Warriors brought, they, Lakeup and those guys bought that team right around 2011, 12. So it was like early on and they've kind of revamped the back. They're actually spending money, which is, you know, the secret problem with Charlotte was Jordan was one of the worst owners of all time. And we love Michael Jordan, he was just a terrible owner who was cheap and made bad decisions. It was poorly run behind the scenes. They hired Charles Lee, who's great, who by the way, Charles Lee was involved with the Bucks when they won the title and the Celtics when they won the title. And I think is one of the best coaches in the league. They're not that far away.

• 1:39:12Bill Simmons?

  When you think like the foundation of those three guys versus like Curry, who turned out to be one of the all timers. Just Curry and Klay versus those three together. Talent wise, it's like you're at least in the vicinity and then you can patch it around. And I think the canipple piece, the, you know, all jokes aside, but he's 20 and he's putting up stats that a 27 year old would do. And the stuff they're doing with him in games, like to have somebody who's that young, who you have on a rookie contract that you can still kind of build around. It's a little reminiscent of when the Warriors had that huge discount for Curry forever. Right? What was he making like 10 million a year for like years and years?

• 1:39:50Speaker 04

  I think he was like a four year, $44 million extension.

• 1:39:52Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, they were able to just patch shit around. That's basically the canipple contract. LaMelo's a max and they're going to have to pay Brandon Miller this summer, I think. And he's earned the contract now.

• 1:40:03Speaker 04

  And, and speaking of LaMelo, I, it's, I am like an all time, like LaMelo defender. I never got off the LaMelo is good thing. And I do think it'd be interesting to have a conversation with him because winning is this weird feedback loop where finally the team is winning. And I do think he's modulated his game as much as young LaMelo Ball can modulate his game. Like a lot of the crazy early clock threes, they're being trimmed down a little bit. He's trying harder on defense and more consistently on defense. There's always going to be moments where like only LaMelo Ball could take that shot. There's the only player in the league who would do that. But I do think he's playing like a calmer, more.

• 1:40:45Speaker 04

  Just clean, normal style of basketball. And I wonder, I would love to ask him, like, in these previous years with Charlotte, what was to stop him from doing whatever he wanted? He couldn't look around the roster being, well, that guy can shoot, and that guy should shoot, and that guy should shoot, and we're losing anyway. They had a couple of good playing years with Borrego and stuff, but now he looks around, he's like, that guy's fucking awesome. That guy's scoring more points than me, and we're winning all these games. And all of a sudden, we have a lot of hype around us and, and, and a lot of, a lot of buzz, no pun intended. Maybe I can take, maybe I can just take 12 shots tonight, and 15 shots the next game, and 11 shots the next game, and not

• 1:41:25Speaker 04

  take 25 shots and have a usage rate that's gargantuan. And everything's cool. And I do think there's, I think his game is changing a little bit in that sense.

• 1:41:35Bill Simmons?

  I was completely out. I didn't think he was gonna get it. And usually by year six, if there's no signs of life, it's not happening. But I'm with you. I think, I think he's toned back a lot of stuff. What's interesting about him on this team, and why he's such a good fit in so many different ways. And again, he's playing 27 minutes a game. Like, they're very careful with not putting too much on him.

• 1:41:56Speaker 04

  A few times on like, back to backs?

• 1:41:58Bill Simmons?

  They're easing him in. They'll get a rebound, and he can do what Maxey is a good parallel of this, where he's just off, right? And he's like, full speed. They have, they're not just like this half-court team, or this team of three-point shooters. They also have this fast break side. And when he's off, these guys split to the sides and they know what to do. And it's really hard to defend. At home, they're finally starting to get some sellouts. Like, there's some real energy for some of these games. I think they're gonna be really dangerous.

• 1:42:29Speaker 04

  Talk about a team that fans are dying to love. And I mean, like, local fans.

• 1:42:32Bill Simmons?

  I feel so bad for their fans.

• 1:42:34Speaker 04

  They're waiting to fall in love with a team like this. And it's, like, I hope they make the playoffs. I would, I would love, I mean, Pistons Hornets, round one would be unbelievable.

• 1:42:45Bill Simmons?

  That's a terrifying series if you're the Pistons, because you're playing a team that started out 4-14 and has basically been a 50-win team since. And that's who you're getting as the eight seed.

• 1:42:55Speaker 04

  And they're gonna come out, like, I don't ever see them deviating from how they play because it's the playoffs. They're gonna play fast, they're gonna play loose, they're gonna shoot tons of threes and play with tons of bravado. That's just who they are.

• 1:43:08Bill Simmons?

  It's funny. So comparing anyone to the Warriors is insane. That's why I said we're going to crazy town. But in 2012, 13, when we're working together, we never could have predicted anything that happened with that Warriors team, right? We just knew they were super fun. And it was like, I'm glad Steph Curry is gonna gonna turn out to be a really good pro, because there was three years there where we didn't even know if he's gonna be able to stay in the league with his ankles. And thank God, he's really fun to watch. And I'm so glad we've gotten to this point. And hey, Klay Thompson's really good, too. And then over the next three years, it built into this way bigger thing. They have the foundation to do something pretty special with this team.

• 1:43:43Speaker 04

  So here's, so I was looking through the last 25 years of teams that sort of like unexpectedly and organically snapped into something that-

• 1:43:53Bill Simmons?

  Was this your first Chat GPT foray?

• 1:43:56Speaker 04

  Yeah, I did a little chat. I did one chat GPT, and then I felt horrible about it, and I stopped.

• 1:44:02Bill Simmons?

  Why'd you feel bad?

• 1:44:03Speaker 04

  I just, you know.

• 1:44:05Bill Simmons?

  You had to try it.

• 1:44:06Speaker 04

  I'm old, I'm old school. Can we have just like writers and writers doing writing, doing the writing?

• 1:44:10Bill Simmons?

  You should've just gone to the library and researched this and encyclopedias.

• 1:44:13Speaker 04

  Hey, look, we take, I, the Lowe family takes out books from the freaking public library, okay? You think I'm buying my daughter all the goddamn babysitter's clubs books and all that stuff? No, you're taking some of those out of the library.

• 1:44:23Bill Simmons?

  The Greenwich Public Library is one of the great libraries.

• 1:44:25Speaker 04

  You don't have to blow up my spot like that.

• 1:44:27Bill Simmons?

  Well, it's a great place.

• 1:44:30Speaker 04

  It's got its ups and downs. And it like, there really isn't a perfect, this is the most interesting. So a lot of them are, have one or two, one or both of these things. One, a consensus, even as this is happening, and it's early, this guy's gonna be one of the 15 to 20 best players in the league at worst, like a, like a true blue, like Derrick Rose, or Damian Lillard, or Steph Curry, or on and on for your sort of like organic builds. Couple of exceptions. Or two, there's a coaching change that dramatically changes how the team plays. So like, the Bucks with Budenholzer, the Hawks with Budenholzer, that's a good comp, like the team that didn't maybe have a top 20 player.

• 1:45:16Speaker 04

  And there's a couple more like the Bulls with Tibbs, the Pacers, the Pacers are actually an interesting comparison, like the Paul George, David West, George Hill, they have a coaching change. But Paul George, I think, becomes an all, obviously became an all NBA player. And do you look at, are you, are we, like, I think probably they do, but they don't, do we have like an all time superstar on this team?

• 1:45:41Bill Simmons?

  I think that's where this falls apart, because you would have to say the Knipple Miller combo, as how unusual it is to have two wings that can both shoot and are almost interchangeable in some ways, almost as the superstar. Because it's a little like what the Celtics had with Jalen and Jason for a while there, where it's like these two forwards, like, what is this? Nobody has anything like this. And maybe that's the superpower? Just being able to have all these different lineups, but with those two guys as the centerpiece, and you can go bigger or smaller with them.

• 1:46:15Speaker 04

  I think you gotta, you're, you gotta include LaMelo. It's the three of them together.

• 1:46:20Bill Simmons?

  Right.

• 1:46:20Speaker 04

  Because he's the best passer. He's also 6'7". The same height as Brandon Miller and 1 inch listed taller.

• 1:46:26Bill Simmons?

  I just, I don't want to put this on LaMelo, because I'm just, I'm so nervous that it's going to fall apart for him at any time.

• 1:46:33Speaker 04

  Well, the health, the health stuff has been, that the health stuff is now the thing that makes me the most nervous, is just the ankle stuff that keeps popping up and making them miss time. But the three of them being 6'6", 6'7", and having the combined passing, shooting, ball handling skills that they have is really unusual.

• 1:46:49Bill Simmons?

  Well, how many teams in the league right now have five guys who, if the situation was right, could absolutely easily score 20 points a game?

• 1:46:59Bill Simmons?

  Like, think about that.

• 1:47:00Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 1:47:01Bill Simmons?

  It's not many. Because they, like, there's a scenario where it's like, hey, Miles Bridges, we need you to score 25 points a game for three weeks here. He could actually do it if they wanted him to. So, for the people here listening, who are like, this is the most fucking insane thing I've ever heard.

• 1:47:16Speaker 04

  I don't think anyone who's paying attention could think this is insane.

• 1:47:19Bill Simmons?

  Well, the advanced metrics are demanding that we have the conversation. When you're first in that rating for 32 games, you have to have the conversation. They played Dallas at home on Tuesday, they're going to win that. Dallas has given up on the season. They're at Boston on Wednesday.

• 1:47:36Bill Simmons?

  Home Miami on Friday.

• 1:47:38Speaker 04

  It's a fun one. That's a must watch. Charlotte Miami Friday. That's must. That's going on my calendar.

• 1:47:43Bill Simmons?

  At depleted Phoenix on Sunday, at Portland, at Sacramento, and then at San Antonio on March 14th. And then they have a little Miami Orlando home game combo after that, but these.

• 1:47:54Speaker 04

  They waxed the Spurs, by the way, they would did wax them, but they they wire to wire beat the Spurs at home in Charlotte.

• 1:47:59Bill Simmons?

  So at Boston, home Miami, this is now, it's it's midterms for them. It's the midterm exams in high school. It's like, okay, you have our attention. Now go to Boston. You're not going to have Jason Tatum yet. This is a team you should be able to play with. You're going to shoot a lot of threes and be super comfortable. And then Miami, that's the team you have to get through in your division. Can you split these? Can you win both? If you lose both, then we were in crazy town and this was stupid, but.

• 1:48:28Speaker 04

  No, you can't. You you live in we two games can't take you out of crazy town. At Boston's a tough game and Miami's Miami and.

• 1:48:36Bill Simmons?

  I know, but I just I just brought the 2013 Warriors and the 2023 OKC into this.

• 1:48:41Speaker 04

  I tried to.

• 1:48:42Bill Simmons?

  That's where we got in the crazy town.

• 1:48:43Speaker 04

  I tried to temper it by bringing in some teams who became very good and did not perhaps accomplish the great history that the Warriors accomplished because they were all very good teams. But no, we you stay in crazy town. You can't be dissuaded by two games, especially one against Miami in which something as historically significant as the 2026 Southeast Division title could be at stake. I mean, the pressure that all the players must feel knowing the division is is in the air in that game is is palpable. People less better, stronger humans have quaked under that kind of pressure before.

• 1:49:18Bill Simmons?

  If we wanted to go to crazy town, we would go to the to the 1978 Seattle Supersonics, who started out five and 17. And ended up losing the finals in seven games to Washington and then winning a year later.

• 1:49:33Speaker 04

  You, no one.

• 1:49:34Bill Simmons?

  But that, that is the craziest start to finish season. Five and 17 made the finals.

• 1:49:39Speaker 04

  I think you, I think there are like probably less than 50 people who are still alive, who can have, who can say one sentence about the 1977, 78 NBA finals. Who can say one coherent sentence.

• 1:49:54Bill Simmons?

  I could probably name nine of the guys on the team.

• 1:49:56Speaker 04

  I mean, I, I.

• 1:49:57Bill Simmons?

  It's a great basketball card team.

• 1:49:58Speaker 04

  I think you guys are going to be like, like D-Day soldiers who like every year there's like fewer and fewer of you left.

• 1:50:05Bill Simmons?

  Well, that's like my dad with the season tickets for the Celtics. He's like fifth oldest now for having the tickets straight through. There's a, there's some, I think there's some guy who's like 90, but my dad's like moved into the top.

• 1:50:18Speaker 04

  Has he been honored? It's like, you know how they do the season ticket holder of the game? They bring them out and they waves.

• 1:50:23Bill Simmons?

  I honestly can't believe he hasn't been, hasn't been brought to midcourt and waved to the crowd. What's he gonna do? He's come back going since 1974.

• 1:50:31Speaker 04

  Wow, that's, that's astonishing. I'm actually surprised.

• 1:50:33Bill Simmons?

  The 73, 74 season brought him a title. So anyway, yeah, Charlotte. I think this is real. Okay, before we go.

• 1:50:41Speaker 04

  Okay.

• 1:50:42Bill Simmons?

  It's March, it's spring training.

• 1:50:47Bill Simmons?

  I have a, I have the Mets over under for the year for you.

• 1:50:50Speaker 04

  Over. I don't even know what it is.

• 1:50:54Bill Simmons?

  Well, you could go, uh, oh, where is it?

• 1:50:59Bill Simmons?

  Over is. Yeah, I can't find it. Well, 90 plus wins is minus 134. You winning 90 games?

• 1:51:09Speaker 04

  Probably not.

• 1:51:10Bill Simmons?

  You don't think so?

• 1:51:11Speaker 04

  I think they, look, I'm, I'm following it from afar. It seems like a little bit of a problem that every day there are quotes coming out of spring training that amount to like, it turns out playing this new position is a little trickier than player X thought it would be. And that's like five players on the team. And like Brett Beatty now has gloves for seven different positions. Like, huh.

• 1:51:32Bill Simmons?

  It's never a good sign.

• 1:51:32Speaker 04

  I hope this is gonna work. It seems, I'm a little worried frankly, but I'm, of course I'm taking the over on whatever the over under is.

• 1:51:39Bill Simmons?

  Are you watching Survivor 50?

• 1:51:41Speaker 04

  No. I haven't watched any, I've never watched an episode of Survivor, not one.

• 1:51:46Bill Simmons?

  Did you ever think of going on?

• 1:51:50Speaker 04

  I, I would probably not subject myself to it.

• 1:51:55Bill Simmons?

  What would be your strategy if you went on?

• 1:51:57Speaker 04

  I don't even know how it works. We do tasks and then someone gets voted off and I know everyone forms alliances and their people alienate other people and there are backroom deals. My strategy would just-

• 1:52:08Bill Simmons?

  It's like ESPN.

• 1:52:11Speaker 04

  Are there teams? I'm seriously, I'm sorry, I'm not bringing anything to the table.

• 1:52:17Bill Simmons?

  I can't go on because I wear contact lenses and I have allergies. Otherwise, I would have gone on. Yeah, I would have loved it.

• 1:52:24Speaker 04

  There's no workaround for that?

• 1:52:27Bill Simmons?

  No.

• 1:52:27Speaker 04

  I feel like that's an excuse.

• 1:52:29Bill Simmons?

  Being in the outdoors, well, now I'm too old. My wife was my dream person to go on though because I'm great at challenges. She would own the challenges, but gets crazy if she's not eating. And you have to like, you're really hungry on Survivor and she's just-

• 1:52:45Speaker 04

  There's not like a hotel nearby where they're getting catered meals, no?

• 1:52:49Bill Simmons?

  So she'd be just an absolute maniac, but then would win the challenges. They wouldn't be able to vote her off and she would just be yelling at everybody about the rice.

• 1:52:59Bill Simmons?

  Just like, who ate the rice? There was more rice here.

• 1:53:02Speaker 04

  I'm trying to think what reality show has ever tempted me like that would be fun.

• 1:53:05Bill Simmons?

  Amazing Race?

• 1:53:06Speaker 04

  That's the one. That's, that's the one where like I travel around the world and solve problems and puzzles and like go on chases. Like that's, that seems fun.

• 1:53:16Bill Simmons?

  What's the craziest thing you've ever done?

• 1:53:19Speaker 04

  The craziest thing I've ever done?

• 1:53:21Bill Simmons?

  Well, like joining a reality show would be the craziest thing. If you told me like one time I applied to be on the Real World, I'd be like, that's the craziest thing you could have told me.

• 1:53:30Speaker 04

  I don't think I have-

• 1:53:30Bill Simmons?

  Did you have like anything like you're like, I can't believe I did that?

• 1:53:34Speaker 04

  I mean, I can't, I still can't believe I ever got on television to talk about anything. You were there with me the first time I went on TV and I almost had to take me to the emergency room.

• 1:53:45Bill Simmons?

  I couldn't even convince you to do a podcast.

• 1:53:47Speaker 04

  No.

• 1:53:48Bill Simmons?

  That took two months.

• 1:53:48Speaker 04

  Like it was, I think all of this is crazy. I'm trying to think if I did anything.

• 1:53:53Bill Simmons?

  I'm glad you mentioned that. I think about that sometimes. Oh, this is crazy.

• 1:53:57Speaker 04

  I don't think I have any.

• 1:54:00Speaker 04

  I mean, I did crazy stuff when I was a cops and crime reporter at the Stanford Advocate in Stanford, Connecticut, like talking to murderers.

• 1:54:06Bill Simmons?

  What was the craziest trial you ever covered?

• 1:54:08Speaker 04

  Craziest trial ever. It's sad. It was a home invasion in which an elderly retired teacher was murdered in her own house by, I don't even remember who exactly did it. It was someone that they didn't know. It was like kind of a random thing, if I remember it correctly. I covered all sorts of horrible stuff and talked to lots of scary people and lots of very interesting people in strange places. It was crazy.

• 1:54:35Bill Simmons?

  I was on a jury once in the like the late 1990s, maybe 2000, when I was living in Boston. You ever on a jury?

• 1:54:43Speaker 04

  No, I've always gotten out of jury duty.

• 1:54:46Bill Simmons?

  I was on a jury and it was, it was this case where these guys got in a fight in an elevator and somebody got stabbed and he said it was the guy who did the stabbing said he was defending himself and we had to do this three day trial and decide on whether he did it or not. It was pretty tense.

• 1:55:08Speaker 04

  Sounds tense.

• 1:55:09Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, I was, I won't tell you what the verdict was, but it was.

• 1:55:14Speaker 04

  I'm gonna come back with a better answer, so I'm sure I've done something crazy that's just.

• 1:55:19Bill Simmons?

  Did you ever drive cross country with anybody?

• 1:55:21Speaker 04

  No.

• 1:55:23Bill Simmons?

  Trying to think, like, you're just a very practical guy.

• 1:55:27Speaker 04

  I once chaperoned a high school band trip to Florida from New Jersey. I was one of eight faculty members who did that. It wasn't crazy. It was just incredibly unpleasant from start to finish. It involved, that involved.

• 1:55:38Bill Simmons?

  That sounds terrible.

• 1:55:39Speaker 04

  That involved a group, I mean, we're talking like 60 children.

• 1:55:43Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:55:44Speaker 04

  High school children and eight teachers and that involved, one of the nights was a dinner at Medieval Times in Orlando and it was just like night four of a five day trip and we did have a serious conversation among the faculty members about whether we could sneak alcohol into Medieval Times and no one would be able to tell because the cups were pewter and whether the risk reward equation was worth it because.

• 1:56:12Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, what a way to get fired.

• 1:56:13Speaker 04

  So sick of the whole, the whole trip.

• 1:56:16Bill Simmons?

  Medieval times like in the cable guy?

• 1:56:19Speaker 04

  So yeah, it's still going. We looked, we actually had to talk about this with some friends. There's still, there's like 10 medieval times around the country. If you want to organize a work of like an outing.

• 1:56:28Bill Simmons?

  Did you follow this whole thing that people were worried that Jim Carrey had been replaced?

• 1:56:32Speaker 04

  I did see, I saw photos that looked like, you know, different than I remember Jim Carrey, but people age and then Hollywood people have things happen to them and they don't look.

• 1:56:42Bill Simmons?

  I thought it looked like he had fillers in his cheeks. I didn't think he got replaced.

• 1:56:46Speaker 04

  There's been, there have been, there is a litany of people who I see them in movies and I'm like, that person looks like that now? That's like, doesn't even, I wouldn't have guessed that in a million years.

• 1:56:58Bill Simmons?

  I like the, in general, I wonder if anyone's ever been replaced in our lifetime.

• 1:57:03Speaker 04

  You're going down some dangerous roads that could get us into some.

• 1:57:06Bill Simmons?

  Well, it happened in Dave, but that was a movie. Well, it's just, it did happen. It was just in a script. Kevin Kline came in, he looked just like Dave, did it. Have you seen Sicario?

• 1:57:20Speaker 04

  I have.

• 1:57:21Bill Simmons?

  You have, you like Sicario?

• 1:57:22Speaker 04

  I loved Sicario. Sicario is, I haven't seen it. I saw it in a hotel by myself in Los Angeles on some road trip because it's, it's a classic. My wife will never watch a movie. And I didn't quite know what I was getting into. I knew the gist of it and I remember being like, this is so much better than I even thought it was going to be. And I would like to re-watch it. I have not seen any of the sequels. I think there are, are there multiple sequels?

• 1:57:43Bill Simmons?

  Multiple sequels. The original Sicario was on Netflix and we're doing a live re-watchables tomorrow, 6pm ET. Me and Fantasy and Chris to kick off CR month. We have two other movies knocked down. Fargo, his second movie is CR month. And then today just announced To Live and Die in LA. I don't know if you know that one, 1985.

• 1:58:05Speaker 04

  Yeah, I don't think.

• 1:58:06Bill Simmons?

  William Peterson, it's a classic. You can find it. I don't know if it's on Netflix, but uh, but yeah, those are the first three, two more spots. So five movie month for re-watchables. So there you go. Thanks to McCloud Ultra for, for sponsoring this live stream. Thanks to Hal and Eduardo and Jack and Kevin and Chris and everybody at The Ringer as well. Zach Lowe, you have a podcast Tuesday morning?

• 1:58:28Speaker 04

  Tuesday morning.

• 1:58:28Bill Simmons?

  Thursday morning.

• 1:58:29Speaker 04

  That's right.

• 1:58:30Bill Simmons?

  Thursday morning will be the holy shit. That Hornets Celtics game was the game of the year and Jason Tatum's coming back on Friday podcast. So I'm looking forward to it.

• 1:58:38Speaker 04

  Wow.

• 1:58:40Bill Simmons?

  Good to see you, my friend. Thank you.

• 1:58:41Speaker 04

  Always fun.

• 1:58:42Bill Simmons?

  Thanks, everybody.

• 1:58:48Bill Simmons?

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• 2:00:10Bill Simmons?

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