World Leading Psychologist: How to Succeed in Life & Work - Jamil Qureshi

This week I met with high performance expert and psychologist, Jamil Qureshi and delved into the secrets behind unlocking your own potential and mastering your mind. Jamil has worked with some of the biggest businesses, sports teams and individuals to help them reach the highest level of performance. In this episode he reveals the hidden secrets behind their success… And how YOU can use them to your advantage! Follow Jamil: Linkedin - https://www.linkedin.com/in/jamil-qureshi-494661a/ Twitter - @Jamil_Qureshi Website - https://www.jamilqureshi.com/ Follow me: https://beacons.ai/diaryofaceo Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

  And this is why Tiger Woods keeps working. This is why Warren Buffett keeps working. It's why Richard Branson keeps working. The only way in which businesses or people will become successful and truly perform to their optimum is amazing question. It's probably the best question I've ever been asked.

• 0:23Steven Bartlett?

  Jamil, thank you for joining me today. It's a pleasure to have you here so early in the morning. I typically on this podcast will, won't introduce people because I'll do a little bit of a pre-introduction, but your, your background and the work you've done specifically with high-performance people and successful people is so compelling and fascinating that I feel like I want you to introduce yourself. And I read through your bio multiple times. It was deeply inspiring. And I think without an introduction, everything we talk about from here, without the perfect introduction, which I feel like only you'll give, everything we talk about from here on might not have the context it needs to have. So who is Jamil Krasju?

• 1:07Speaker 00

  I'm a performance coach and psychologist. So I've spent my time working with some very good sports teams, some very good business teams.

• 1:15Steven Bartlett?

  You're being humble, aren't you?

• 1:16Speaker 00

  Some successful people. And I guess what I do is I help people cultivate a mindset for success. So I always say that for us to act differently, we need to think differently. We're going to create different behaviours, different actions. It's about creating different thoughts first. So I guess what I do more than anything else is help people change their mind. So always said is new, new opportunities, new possibilities that will come from new perspectives. So a lot of my time is spent working with people, not to give them new skills, but more to allow them to understand the skills that they've already got and then create a perspective for them to use it differently. So as a performance coach, I think everyone can be better. Everyone can perform better. It's just a matter of, I

• 1:56Speaker 00

  guess, trying to create the mindset, the attitude. I guess some of the precursors to those, to the performance which are, which are beneficiary to, which have benefit to them.

• 2:07Steven Bartlett?

  And so you said that everybody has the skills. I I you know, I I see that in a lot of my friends. I see that they have a lot more sort of um natural capabilities than they've managed to sort of give the world through their actions. If someone has an ambition to be something, if they have the ambition to be, you know, a sports star, I know you've worked with a lot of athletes and you've worked with business people, or they want to start a business. What you tend to see, and what I tend to see in my inbox, is a lot of people with intention, but there seems to be something preventing that intention from turning into action or like behaviour.

• 2:42Speaker 00

  Into an achievement.

• 2:43Steven Bartlett?

  Yeah.

• 2:44Speaker 00

  Yeah, and I think, you know, turning ambition into achievement is the key, because, you know, most people will have good intentions. Most people will be wishing and hoping to be better. But there's a big difference between wishing and hoping and believing and executing upon it. So I think that the people who genuinely execute on it probably want it more for a start. And that's the key. No one's ever wandered around the bottom of a mountain and then simply found themselves at the top. And it does take that determination, the resilience. It does take the ability to execute upon ideas to drive success. So I think the key is the desire, which is fueled by having a purpose, a mission, a vision towards what that end goal should look like.

• 3:24Steven Bartlett?

  A lot of people um can't quite, they say one thing. They say that their their purpose is to go to the gym.

• 3:32Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 3:33Steven Bartlett?

  For example.

• 3:34Speaker 00

  We all say one thing and do the other.

• 3:35Steven Bartlett?

  Yeah, and why and why is that? Like, because it's sometimes hard to distinguish with someone whether that's their real sort of desire or whether they're kind of like virtue signaling to themselves that they want to be something or, you know, they want to start that business or become an entrepreneur, be, you know, get a six pack. But then their actions show that quite a different story. So I always wondered that with my, some of my friends, I always think, are they, do they actually want that or are they just?

• 4:01Speaker 00

  It's very easy to say that this is what I'm after and much harder to do it. And I think one of the reasons why is because um we have to invest, we self invest. So we probably all know these um kids at school who are great footballers at fourteen, fifteen. You think, you know what, they're going to make it. They're just brilliant. They're going to make it. Um or great. Track athletes at 12, you know, and you just think they're special, but they don't make it. And the reason why they don't make it is they don't self invest. So the people who make it are the ones who will get up on a rainy Friday morning, get up on a rainy Saturday morning to go and practise whilst their mates are in bed, the ones who will practise on a Friday night when their mates are out drinking. And so talent is not enough. You need talent

• 4:46Speaker 00

  plus teachability. So talent plus the ability to be open minded, agile in our thinking, to commit to practise and turn that practise into something which develops our talent even further. So there's lots of people with talent in business, lots of people with talent in sport, but I guess that we need to be open minded enough to invest in how we practise our talent to become successful. So, you know, there's no substitute for practise. I get lots of golfers who say to me that, yeah, can you make me better? Yeah. And, you know, the number one golfer in the world will practise more than any amateur, you know, and, you know, there lies the truth. But, you know, we need to, we need to apply ourselves in a particular manner. And so we need to be practical about how we exercise our talent.

• 5:31Speaker 00

  You create good feedback loops to understand what we're doing, gain better personal introspection and self-awareness to allow us to use our talents differently.

• 5:40Steven Bartlett?

  How do you give someone that purpose though? Like, I'm trying to think like, so we know, we know practise is like so incredibly important to master something. But my, I guess my question is, how would you give someone that motivation? Because I, I guess you can't give someone purpose. A lot of us spend so much of our lives trying to motivate people, right? To motivate friends, families, you know, siblings, whatever it might be. And I'm wondering if there's a thing we can do as like loving friends or whatever to give someone that kick.

• 6:10Speaker 00

  Yeah, so I mean, a couple of points, I guess, on that. In regard to discovering purpose, it can't be done for someone. So I always say that purpose is never achieved, it's attained on a daily basis. So the mistake that people make with purpose is they confuse it with an end goal. So here's my purpose, and I have this vision statement of what they're seeking to, you know, achieve or create, whatever it might be, and they get practical and tangible about it. But purpose isn't that. Purpose is achieved on a daily basis. That, sorry, so my purpose is never achieved, it's attained on a daily basis. And this is why Tiger Woods keeps working. This is why Warren Buffett keeps working. It's why Richard Branson keeps working. It's because it's a never achieved, it's attained on a daily basis. So I think that, you know,

• 6:54Speaker 00

  we need to find something which is purposeful to us, and then we need to lose ourselves to it on a regular basis. So once we start to become more purpose driven and express ourselves in a particular way, I always say being a good colleague, being a good business leader, being a good sports person is not seeking to impress, it's about seeking to express and be ourselves in the context of our work. So once people can find that within themselves, then I think they can direct their energy and their focus in a particular way and become much more purpose driven in how they go about their daily activities. But you can't give someone that purpose, it has to be theirs. And I think life is about timing. I think some people find that

• 7:37Speaker 00

  very late, some people find that very early, and it makes no difference, we're all individuals. In regard to helping other people make change, we're almost too quick to go towards behaviours. So we tell people to be different all the time. Tell our team members, you should be more collaborative, guys. And, guys, you need to be more innovative. And tell our children to keep their rooms tidy. So we're constantly talking to people about behaviours. Say to our friends that you should give up smoking or be healthier, whatever it might be. The only way in which you change actions is by changing thoughts. So we think, and then we feel, and then we act. That's how we work. So if you're constantly working on actions, we're telling people to be different. And this is why New Year's resolutions fail. From tomorrow, I'll be different.

• 8:20Speaker 00

  Start doing this, I'm going to stop doing that. We start talking about actions and behaviours. We need to go back to the precursor of all our actions, which is our thoughts. So the only way in which you genuinely drive commitment rather than compliance when it comes to change in your team, in your friends, in yourself, is by changing the words and pictures in your head or their head to drive different feelings and then different actions. There's a little tip which I sometimes give leaders, and I said to leaders, never say to your team you're going to make a change. You say to your team you're going to make a change, they won't like it. Say to your team, I'd like to try and experiment. They'll all be on board with it and we'll give that a go, that's okay.

• 9:02Speaker 00

  So even just a difference in language to allow someone to think differently or make them feel differently and hopefully therefore choose to act in a different manner.

• 9:10Steven Bartlett?

  And how would I get someone to change their thoughts?

• 9:13Speaker 00

  Yeah. So if you've got anyone in mind.

• 9:18Speaker 00

  Do you know, I think the best way is gamification. What holds people in place is what they believe to be true. And so people will sit around a boardroom table and they'll discuss strategy. And I'll say, you know, we can do this, but we can't do that. And they'll have a viewpoint on budgets, on consumer buying behaviours, on compliance and governance. And that's what holds us in place. So what we need to do is break free of some of the parameters that we think are in the way. So if we've got people around a boardroom table and say, look, guys, there's just this strategy piece that we're going to talk about. Let's imagine we've got an unlimited marketing budget for it. If we had an unlimited marketing budget for it, I know we haven't, but if we had, what would we be doing? How would we be doing it?

• 10:03Speaker 00

  You know, if we had no marketing budget, what would we be doing? Now, what we're doing here is that we are helping people to move outside of the mental tram lines that we all operate under and the habitual thinking. So let's ask them what if questions. Can you imagine that, you know, a life if you weren't smoking? What would it look like? What would you be doing today if you weren't smoking? What'd you spend your money on that you save on cigarettes? Just play the game of what if. So let's break free of some of the things which are holding people in place not by conflict, not by arguing and debate in a confrontational manner, but finding some common ground and working from there. And a common ground is, let's play a game.

• 10:46Steven Bartlett?

  And you said there, you know, about people finding that purpose in their lives. We hear this phrase a lot, which is find your passion.

• 10:56Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 10:57Steven Bartlett?

  And I almost feel that it's, it's in many respects quite harmful because it, that question is kind of loaded. It assumes a singular passion for a start. It assumes that you can discover it like an Easter egg. And then, and also the, the context in which that question usually sits in it implies that once you find it, then it's, you know, then it's the, the, it's a can of unlimited like happiness and orientation forever. And then that's yours. And it, I just feel like sometimes language can be harmful because it, it simplifies very complex things and sometimes multifaceted plural things, you know? So I wondered if that, you know, that phrase, find your, find your passion was something you, you felt similar about?

• 11:42Speaker 00

  Yeah, I do. I mean, yeah, it's true that passion can be a significant multiplier of human potential. So, you know, if people are passionate and engaged in a business, they can direct their energy in a, in a worthwhile and meaningful manner. So, so, so it's worthwhile, but you're right. But you know, there's a big difference between passion, a big difference between happiness and joy. Some are in the moment. I think joy is in the moment. And I think happiness is something that we continually, continually adjust towards. You know, passion can be a significant multiplier of human potential, particularly in the workplace. So it does have a place. It is something which is useful to understand. And ultimately it always comes down to personal introspection and self-awareness for me.

• 12:27Speaker 00

  And I think that we need to work harder at understanding ourselves. And when we are constructing a mindset which is conducive to performance. So we optimize our potential when we're in a particular state of mind. And that state of mind might be passion, it might be relaxation, it might be enthusiasm, it might be enjoyment. But we need to almost get to know ourselves and know that there are certain things which enable us to do others. And once we've worked. Backwards and understand what that looks like. Maybe we can gain some more consistency. I say to a lot of sports people and to a lot of business people that consistency of mind gives you consistency of play.

• 13:07Speaker 00

  And I'm convinced of it. And the more consistent we can be in our thinking, we understand the building blocks, the component parts to success. Yeah, the more success we can have.

• 13:17Steven Bartlett?

  And how does one establish consistency of thought? Because I completely agree with that. I completely agree. I've seen that in my own life. When I've been consistent with my thinking, I've managed to, you know, perform the same habits every day. But then sometimes I'll lose consistency in my thoughts because I lose.

• 13:36Steven Bartlett?

  I lose, I guess I lose attachment or sort of my anchor with my, my why.

• 13:40Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 13:40Steven Bartlett?

  And I talk a lot, I've talked a lot on this podcast over the last couple of weeks about this realisation I've had this year with the gym, which was every year, February, March, I was incredibly motivated to go. Fired up, trying to look good for summer.

• 13:53Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 13:54Steven Bartlett?

  And then obviously, once you look good and summer has ended, it's almost like you've lost your anchor, right? So like you get into September and the why which made you go and to think consistently every day has evaporated and I'm, I can't get myself to go to the gym in October.

• 14:10Speaker 00

  Right. You're looking great shape for it.

• 14:12Steven Bartlett?

  This was the year I realised. So this was the year I realised and this was the year I bucked the trend for the first time in my life.

• 14:18Speaker 00

  Okay.

• 14:19Steven Bartlett?

  I realised that I thought to myself every single year, I'd do it for this period and then I stop. And they're two different people. August Steve and October Steve don't know each other. They're like, you know what I mean? They're like twins that were separated at birth. And so this was the year where I realised what I was doing and why I was losing my motivation. So I thought, fuck it, you know, I'm going to anchor my why to something a bit more long term and without a timeline. So I said to myself, listen, I persuaded myself of all the reasons why I want to be healthy and view my life as one season. And that's what's allowed me to persevere. And also, I got a bit pissed off with myself. I thought, you're really like that, like, you're that vain and you're like, you know, but so.

• 15:04Speaker 00

  Yeah. Do you know, I mean, I always think that consistency of mind comes from understanding the intrinsic quality of our decision-making processes. And I say that a lot to people in sport and in business. So, you know, you can make a good decision and have a really bad outcome. Or you can make a bad decision, have a good outcome. And this is why I've worked with leadership teams who have confused luck for genius. They had a really bad decision, but a great outcome. Markets have changed, competition's done something, something's just worked in their favour. So it's really important for us to not judge our decision-making by our outcomes. And we often do. So we'll say, this is a good decision because it resulted in this. Or this is a bad decision, it resulted in that. And we can only understand the outcome retrospectively.

• 15:49Speaker 00

  So it's wrong to measure our decisions by the outcomes. And then we need to go back to how we made a decision in the first place. Now, once we start to understand the intrinsic quality of our decision-making process, we can become more consistent in how we make decisions and therefore have more control over those outcomes. So I think that, you know, two things, I think that, and I will use you as the example here, Steve, that consistency of mind will come from knowing how we make decisions. And I understand that we put our weight into evidence, how much we use prejudice and bias and opinion, whatever it might be. But let's understand how we make decisions. And in that way, we can be consistent in how we apply our logic and thinking and feeling, try and determine some best outcomes. And

• 16:32Speaker 00

  then the other thing, as you've just positioned, is reframing. Let's stand back and create some time and space to understand, you know, why we do things and why we don't do things. Now, I always say that the people who are most successful, and I've had a pleasure working with six sports people who got to number one in the world, I can guarantee you, the one thing they had in common was that they never made big changes, it was small changes. So I'm a big believer in the one degree of change. Take two parallel lines and you move one by one degree. It may not seem much at first, but it's a really big difference between where you start and where you end up. So everyone's trying to,

• 17:14Speaker 00

  make a dramatic change, I see change from tomorrow, I'm going to be different. I think it's about doing something a little bit more than what we've been doing it at hand, a bit more consistently. And then the other thing with these people who obtained, you know, what I call super achievements, so they did really, really well, is that they actually worked on their strengths. They started to understand what was good about them and do that some more. So we think to be better as human beings, I think we'd be better as a business or a team of people, we need to fix our weaknesses. I'm not sure that's true. I actually think it's more about understanding our strengths than playing to them. So I've actually worked with teams before in business and in sport who have actually weakened the strengths by trying to strengthen a weakness.

• 17:57Speaker 00

  If you think about it, it's ridiculous. And actually weaken the strengths by trying to strengthen a weakness, we need to be careful. So I think understanding what's good about us, understanding, you know, where our behaviours come from in regard to the thinking before it, and then reframing some of those words and pictures. And I guess that's what you've done with your gym example, is I guess change some of the words and pictures in your head to therefore feel differently, which has resulted you in acting differently.

• 18:21Steven Bartlett?

  Yeah, and I really, you know, I was, I was valuing intensity over consistency and intensity wasn't sustainable, right? So I was going through the summer like to the gym two times a day. I was starving myself, like eating things that I, I didn't want to necessarily eat. And the consistency came from being a bit more realistic with myself, being like, you know, if you miss the day of gym, it doesn't matter. You don't have to.

• 18:42Speaker 00

  Perspective, perspective, isn't it? And I think, do you know, it's funny because again, so many sports people I've worked with, business people who will lose perspective. They'll lose a tournament and it's dreadful. You know, win a tournament, I've made it, you know, this is it, this is the turning point for me. Now they win a big contract, you know, in business and, you know, this is us now, we're set up, you know, or they, or they lose a contract and life has never been so dreadful. But I think that we need a better perspective on things. So our ability to think more long term, to be more forgiving, you know, to understand with more reality at what's good and what's not so good is probably the way forwards.

• 19:21Steven Bartlett?

  And in terms of responsibility, it's a topic that's fascinating. Consistency is a topic I've been so fascinated about over the last year. As I've reflected and has been sort of introspective about the things I've been able to achieve, whether it's getting millions of followers on social media, or whether it's growing my business or going to the gym. It seems that the very ironically consistent theme across all of them was consistency. It was being able to do, perform X habit for a long period of time. And then you have that the eighth wonder of the world shows up and things start compounding in your favour, very quickly usually. But the other term that I've been fascinated with is responsibility. And as I've, I started out as an 18 year old kid, dropped out of university, disowned by my parents, no money at all.

• 20:05Steven Bartlett?

  And the, one of the things that I noticed as I look back on 18 year old Steve versus a lot of other people that I see that are, that are living in the same shithole area I was living in and stealing pizzas like I was stealing them, was they don't take responsibility for their situation. They kind of see themselves as a victim of the situation they're in. Whereas when I was in that situation, not only did I not view it as my destination, I was literally taking photos of the, the nothingness in my fridge and the, how dire my life was because in my mind, and I started keeping this diary on Facebook, which I really randomly wrote in my diary that a TV company had asked me to keep this because I didn't actually know how to tell my own diary. Right. That I thought I was gonna show the world this someday.

• 20:51Steven Bartlett?

  I, I didn't see it as my, my destination and I took full responsibility of my circumstance. It wasn't anyone's fault but my own and I was gonna change it. But then I, one of the things that makes me concerned about our generation and about certain political narratives and certain themes I see on the internet is like an avoidance of responsibility for your life and the default to blame someone else. And I'll be honest, it's something I see more in the Western world than I do in the African village I was born in. Yeah. You know, so. Wanted to know, free from you, like what role responsibility plays in people's outcomes?

• 21:26Speaker 00

  Okay, that's a big one.

• 21:29Speaker 00

  You promised me some easy questions today. So responsibility is huge, it's just massive. It's one of the predeterminants of successful outcomes is our ability to take ownership and accountability. So circumstance and situation push and pull us in different directions on a daily basis. The world is complex, it's uncertain, it's unpredictable, all of those things. The people who perform best have huge levels of responseability, an ability to respond to those circumstances and situation, no matter what they are, to drive the best outcomes or opportunities. So I always said it's a circle of concern, water cooler conversations, the stuff that's going on around us,

• 22:11Speaker 00

  circumstance, situation, incidents and accidents. Then there's a circle of influence and the circle of influence is where we make choice. That's what it's about. So responsibility is all about choice for me. I absolutely guarantee you now that circumstance and situation is not a predictor of success. Because we know of people who were born into privilege, they're great role models, had good access to opportunity, to wealth. They had good guidance and good support and they ended up dying heroin addicts in prison. We know some people born with a physical disadvantage, now the lack of good role models, now the lack of guidance, lack of support, lack of opportunity. They grew up to be some of the most successful people who have ever walked this earth.

• 22:54Speaker 00

  So it proves beyond doubt that attitude is more important than intelligence or facts. And I genuinely believe that to be true in all areas of high performance, that attitude is more important than intelligence or facts. I always say, give me I will over IQ. Any one of my teams, I'd rather have I will over IQ. Because high technical expertise, I'm talking about the Western world at the moment, high technical expertise is no longer as valuable as it used to be. And the reason why high technical expertise is no longer as valuable as it used to be is because we can Google things. That's why. So knowing a lot isn't where your success is going to come from. It's not what you know, which is important. Is how you think about what you know and how you bring it to life with your character and personality to determine the best outcomes or opportunities.

• 23:39Speaker 00

  So, you know, I genuinely believe that the only way in which businesses or people will become successful and truly perform to their optimum is taking full accountability and ownership. We need to almost move away from circumstance and situation, which is a distraction. So, um, the more that we realise that our success is dependent upon us and not on situation, the better. And because the world is so unpredictable, we need to simply learn to dance on a shifting carpet, not see the rug being pulled from under our feet. You know, life is a game of continual adjustment and it doesn't matter what happens, it's how we react and respond to it to determine those best opportunities or outcomes.

• 24:20Speaker 00

  And I think that, you know, it's funny because initially I'm working with a lot of businesses and on culture, on team, people strategies. And the focus on responsibility has never been higher, mainly because we've been asked to stay apart. People are having to determine their own work schedules. People have to determine their own working week. And they're going to have to take responsibility for driving the best outcomes whilst they're not surrounded by a team or working with directly with a leader. So there's been a greater call for responsibility. I wonder whether, in answer to your question, and I don't know the answer to this. I wonder whether we'll see a better shift or greater shift towards more responsibility in the Western world.

• 25:02Speaker 00

  Because I agree with you. I think that many of us will see ourselves as a victim of circumstance and situation and not necessarily see the beauty in the chaos because of it.

• 25:12Steven Bartlett?

  You talked there about the internet as well and the power of the internet and how that's been a bit of a leveler, which is, which is a really wonderful thing, I think.

• 25:21Steven Bartlett?

  Well, how important is it, do you, do you think, when you think about the successful people you've worked with, to be a sort of self-driven learner beyond school? Do you see in the, specifically in the sort of upper echelons of like business, the ones that, the people that are most successful are proactive, sort of self-driven?

• 25:40Speaker 00

  Yeah, I think, I think it's true. I think that, I've said, our only sustainable competitive advantage is to learn faster and better than your competitors. So, you know, and you think about that for a business, you think about that for a leader, you know, you think about it for a sportsman, it's probably true, isn't it? You know, our only sustainable competitive advantage is to learn faster and better than anyone else.

• 26:02Steven Bartlett?

  It's like the two-power line, line analogy.

• 26:04Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah. And I think that, you know, and I think that, I think that, how can we learn faster and better, yeah, if we're not proactive lifelong learners? And so, you know, and I think that, you know, learning isn't necessarily about being taught. We don't necessarily need teachers. It's a strive for greater curiosity. You know, I think curiosity is worth more than creativity at the moment, but it's a strive for greater curiosity. It's a matter of being, matter of being open-minded. It's a matter of being agile in our thinking so we can deploy resource to opportunity as it becomes visible. It's about, it's about self-discovery. So it's about a variety of things which are based, not necessarily upon

• 26:43Speaker 00

  traditional learning, but more in the way in which we can open our mind up to experimentation and feedback, you know, and understanding ourselves differently. And I think the best leaders, you know, have this ability to, you know, reimagine, repurpose, reinvent. I don't think they're beholden to a particular, or wedded to a particular mindset.

• 27:06Steven Bartlett?

  But that's, for a lot of people, that's terrifying, the thought of experimentation and being agile and reinvention. I've seen that in my own business. I've seen, over the years, I was, I was known as being the guy that would walk in, I think a lot of business leaders are, walk in in the morning and be like, we're going in a different direction. Everyone come in this room, we're going to launch this part of our business and we're going to take it, we're going to experiment. And I, I would often say to our team that experimentation is like at the heart of all of our strategies. It's like why, especially as a social media company where our platforms, social media changes every day. There's new updates pushed by Facebook and Instagram every day. So our company slogan was keeping, keeping brands at the forefront of what's possible, which meant that we had to be agile.

• 27:46Steven Bartlett?

  But I'd often see people in my organization that were really against change, fearful of it. They would take, you know, they would resist it.

• 27:55Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 27:55Steven Bartlett?

  You know, and I, I, I wonder how you, if it's, I always wondered why it was. Some of them had levels of imposter syndrome, so they were, you know, they were just, just trying to get a hang of the role they were in and not do more, they, you know, they were already, you know, conscious, but I wonder what your thoughts were on that.

• 28:14Speaker 00

  I think, I think people don't like change because they don't know what it results in. I think that's one of the things, but so let's take, um, let's take, uh, moving your desk. Yeah. Someone sat at a desk for 10 years in a particular office and he said, you know what, you need to, you need to move down the corridor. I'm going to make a move. People weren't like that in the slightest. If you said to them that, you know, you need to move down the corridor, you know, we really appreciate the move. We're going to give you a million pounds at the end of the year because of it. They'd be trotting off with their potted plant in hand, I guarantee it. So I think that because people don't necessarily know what it results in, why should we invest in doing something different? Which is uncomfortable because it goes against our mental tram lines, our habitual thinking.

• 28:56Speaker 00

  So now you're asking me to compromise my patterns and I don't know what for. And I don't know what's going to result in, and it could be good, it could be bad. So therefore I'm not sure I want to go to the trouble of investing in this change when I haven't determined, you know, the result of it. As human beings, we like patterns, that's good and it's bad. And it works in our favor sometimes, sometimes it doesn't. So we like patterns and so we like consistency and we compartmentalize and I'm going to viewpoint on the world. And in fact, if you look at, um, you know, the office is a good example. The office is a great example of keeping people in patterns. So you've got your phone on your desk here, you've got your computer there, come in at a certain time, work in a certain way, take your lunch at a certain time. So we're conditioned to work.

• 29:41Speaker 00

  In a way which is reflective of the consistency which takes out variance in business.

• 29:46Steven Bartlett?

  Oh, yeah.

• 29:47Speaker 00

  So you think that management has been around for about a hundred years. And the reason why management's been around for about a hundred years is to reduce variance. Because then you can get, then you can scale. So businesses got bigger, a lot bigger a hundred years ago. Because of the ability to keep people habitual. So, um, so because we've become conditioned to do this and everything around us keeps us in, in, in a pattern that we quite like being in. As soon as you start to move outside of that, there's a level of discomfort. So I guess leaders can allow people to make change and embrace change. I guess there's a few points. One, it's always best if it's co-authored and co-created.

• 30:27Steven Bartlett?

  Right.

• 30:28Speaker 00

  So let's involve people in what that change looks like. It's always best if, um, uh, we look at, um, our organizations or teams as a community instead of as a team or an organization. Now, at the moment, communities are outperforming bureaucracies and hierarchies when it comes to maximizing human talent. So let's try and form a community and, um, let's co-author and co-create. And then, um, let's have a look at, um, peer recognition, peer coaching, peer challenge. It doesn't need to be a top-down thing done to people. It can be something which can happen from the inside out. You know, it's, it's, it's meaningful when, when something is endorsed by others that, that, you know, you are, that you feel an affinity with.

• 31:08Steven Bartlett?

  Sure. Well, when you read about the Steve Jobs of the world and the Elon Musks of the world, they seem to buck all of the, a lot of the trends that you hear in like management coaching, they seem to be very authoritarian. You know, I was reading about from, I was reading Steve, uh, no, Elon Musk's biography. And there's stories of him just like calling someone into the office and saying, how much does it cost to do this? They'll say 10 million. He'll say, do it for five, 5,000 and do it within 30 days. And they'll go away feeling puzzled, but they'll get it done.

• 31:36Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 31:36Steven Bartlett?

  He has this culture of like intensity and when you start, he says to the teams that this will be the hardest you've ever worked in your life. But it'll be the most worthwhile, but it'll be the hardest you've ever worked. And, and I, you know, and then Steve Jobs as well, I've heard the stories of how he was, you know, how he built the company at Medlo Park and he seemed like the antithesis of what you would read about in a business book. But obviously these are two of the most successful entrepreneurs the world has ever, you know, seen. So I wondered if there's a, I'm trying to appreciate the like.

• 32:07Steven Bartlett?

  How they've achieved their success by being so different from what all the business books say, from all accounts, they're assholes. You know what I mean?

• 32:14Speaker 00

  Yeah, I mean, I think a couple of things, I guess that, you know, you find what works for you. I think what they have on their side is they have a really big purpose statement. It's a really big mission. So there are lots of companies with mission statements, but very few on a mission. And I guess that when it comes back to the point I made earlier, that passion being a significant multiplier of human potential, I guess that these people have the ability to engage people. So to tell a story, to inspire and motivate. So I guess that, you know, there is a, there's no doubt lots of logic. And there is no doubt lots of rationality, which is used in their management leadership style. But what you're describing

• 32:59Speaker 00

  to me and the people that you're describing, I think you can really get behind something that someone passionately believes in and is something which is worthwhile and purposeful, yet on such a grand scale. So I think when they're talking about things which will change humanity, I think it's possible for, you know, us to be swept along on that particular vision. So maybe it does mobilize people in a different manner because of who they are, what they believe in, and what they're trying to achieve.

• 33:28Steven Bartlett?

  Yeah, no, that's probably true. I mean,

• 33:30Speaker 00

  Yeah, you think about, the example I give you is JFK. Well, yeah, I mean, JFK, you think about JFK's speech about put a man on the moon. You should read it, actually, rather than look at it. It's a rubbish speech when you read it. And the reason, and the reason why is that there's no logic to it at all. There's no rationality. So he says, we'll put a man on the moon. And the reason why he gives that we should put a man on the moon is because it's, it's hard and not easy. Which is a rubbish reason to do anything. It's hard and not easy. That's why we're gonna do it. So, but not only did they end up doing this, it mobilized a whole nation behind the space race and a whole nation behind science, in fact. And

• 34:13Speaker 00

  the reason why was that because logic was low, inspiration was high. It was such a, it was such a, literally a moonshot. It was literally such a big goal and so ambitious, so expansive, you know, that people bought into the dream. And I wonder whether, and I don't know, you know, the examples you gave, Steve Jobs and Elon Musk, I wonder whether people just buy into that dream, you know, they buy into what they, not necessarily what they're seeking to do, but what they're seeking to create. And maybe there's a lesson for all of us who manage, manage teams, that, that maybe it's not about trying to, you know, get people to do stuff. It's about people to, you know, to create stuff. It's that, you know, to be part of something which is worthwhile and meaningful and sell a big vision,

• 34:57Speaker 00

  tell the right story and, and, you know, engage people emotionally.

• 35:02Steven Bartlett?

  You know all of this stuff about psychology, know a lot of stuff.

• 35:04Speaker 00

  I've read a few books.

• 35:05Steven Bartlett?

  Yeah. You've read a few books.

• 35:07Speaker 00

  I've read a few books, read last Tuesday.

• 35:08Steven Bartlett?

  Yeah. You know a lot of stuff.

• 35:10Speaker 00

  Don't tell my clients.

• 35:15Steven Bartlett?

  Yeah. When people come across people like you, they think that you've got all the answers. And because you've got all the answers, or at least an answer to most things, they think that you must live a life of sort of perfect decision making. Do you know what I mean?

• 35:32Speaker 00

  Cottles, children of the worst worn shoes.

• 35:34Steven Bartlett?

  Yeah, exactly. So, yeah, what, what are you like at, at living these things that you're aware of? What are you like at, at living these things that you're aware of?

• 35:44Speaker 00

  Yeah, I'm rubbish. Yeah. Next question.

• 35:47Steven Bartlett?

  Right, that's the end of the podcast.

• 35:50Speaker 00

  And the reason why is that, and two things, that one, we're all human. Because we're all human, you know, we're all prone to make mistakes in our doing and our thinking. And I think that being, you know, better never stops. So therefore we've got to continually adjust, you know, we don't find hints, tips, gimmicks that make us better. And then we just apply them regularly and it works. So I guess there's a level of inconsistency, which is reflective of the fact that, you know, that I'm a human being who tries to do better, you know,

• 36:24Steven Bartlett?

  Give me an example.

• 36:24Speaker 00

  On a regular basis.

• 36:26Steven Bartlett?

  On an example of something, well, you're aware of the truth, but you're just not.

• 36:30Speaker 00

  On the amount of times, as you know, I've been a guest speaker for 10 years now. So when the world is normal and sane, you know, I would go off four days a week, anywhere in the world, so twice a week I was abroad and I'd speak to a few hundred people. I'd stand on stage, I'd do an hour's talk about performance psychology and I'd come off. So I did that for 10 years, four times a week, but I'd often come off and think, God, was that any good? I say to the stakeholder, come up to me and say that, you know, that was really brilliant. This is exactly what we're after. Perfect. I say, you're happy? Oh, yeah, it's exactly what we're after, but you sort of covered the brief. Yeah, yes, yeah, absolutely. It's exactly what I wanted. And I said, well, send me an email, let me know the feedback.

• 37:14Speaker 00

  And then you get, you know, maybe even get some feedback, which is like, you know, you get sort of scored out of five, in terms of like 97% five. I'd be scouring for the threes and twos and think that, you know, there's like 500 people, there's like sort of five people who put two. And I said, it was all right. And I just think, fucker. But I'd be wondering why? What did I do wrong? What was... And it's unbelievable. It's unbelievable. The amount of times I've sat in front of an audience and, you know, maybe there's 300 people there and there's someone with their arms folded like that and they're just like, I think he doesn't look engaged. You know, and so out of 300 people, there's something, most people writing down things or nodding or smiling or whatever it is, it's amazing how many times I can pick out

• 37:57Speaker 00

  the one person who doesn't seem to be enjoying it. So I think, look, I guess a couple of things that I'm always prone to, you know, we actually, we wait quite highly to stuff which we think we're not doing well. You know, we're trying to fix what's not right about us, what's not good, you know, what we should have done, what we could be doing. I think I'm still prone to that, rather than sort of enjoying the, you know, the success that I've had, really.

• 38:22Steven Bartlett?

  What about things in your personal life in terms of like, like, you know, health and like being a parent and like

• 38:29Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 38:30Steven Bartlett?

  pursuing goals and ambitions you have in your, in your personal life. What about those things?

• 38:34Speaker 00

  Yeah, I think that, you know, um, uh, health wise, I need to take some advice from you. We should, I'll lie down and tell you all about it. I keep, I keep meaning to, I keep meaning to run more and go to gym more. There's always an excuse. So, you know, I'm the most demotivated motivational speaker.

• 38:52Speaker 00

  Last British shit. So, um, so yeah, so I think I need to work out more. Um, I tell you the one thing that gets me, I've got three children. I've got sort of, um, four, four year old twin girls and a nine year old boy. Is that, you know, as a psychologist, um, you know, I'm pretty good at, I've sat in front of some sort of pretty difficult clients, some really difficult clients. You know, some people at the absolute top of their profession and, um, and they're, they're fucking screwed in their thinking. And, um, and, you know, and, you know, I've dealt with it. Four year olds and nine year olds just do me. I can't, you know, I just, you know, you try and apply psychology to it and it doesn't work. And so the level of frustration that comes about in regard to being a parent, again, this is my point that, you know, all human beings.

• 39:36Speaker 00

  So, um, so, you know, you try, you try all the influence, persuasion and negotiation. And all the psychology and all the techniques that you know, it doesn't work on four year olds. It doesn't work.

• 39:47Steven Bartlett?

  It's so funny. The guest that was sat here yesterday, Joe Wicks, said the exact same thing. He said, I'm like a, you know, calm guy, but he's just said, you know, when I, my daughter, I'll, I'll tell her that I want to just put her down so I can clean the counter and she just won't be having it.

• 39:58Speaker 00

  Irrationality is what does me.

• 40:00Steven Bartlett?

  Yeah.

• 40:00Speaker 00

  And, um, so, you know, and it's, you know, it's funny because, um, I've had some really good sports people sit in front of me and say, you know, give me, you know, have you got something that makes me better then? And then you give them something and they go away, they come back a week later and they say, I tried that, it doesn't work. Have you got anything else? It's a bit like going to the gym, working out for half an hour, going home, looking in the mirror and says, you have to crap that. I don't like the gym. I wish I'd worked for me. And so, and this is my point that, that, you know, it's not about tools, gimmicks and hints. It's about striving every day to be better than what you were yesterday. I worked with a golfer. He was very, very good, really good.

• 40:41Speaker 00

  And, you know, literally top 10 in the world. He spent a whole year and with just a piece of paper in his pocket. And he used to play with this piece of paper in his pocket. And it used to just say, what did I enjoy today and what did I learn today? It's only two questions on it. And then in the evening, he'd just answer those questions. So that whole year, forget the numbers, I'm not going to look at numbers. I'm just going to answer this question. So if I had a good day, I've had a bad day, it doesn't make any difference. I'll just answer that question, these questions. What did I enjoy today and what did I learn today? He had the best year he ever had, just answering those questions. Yeah. And in a way, there almost needs to be more simplicity to not using tools and techniques, not to try and apply psychology to a four-year-old. But to just try and consistently enjoy and learn on a daily basis.

• 41:27Speaker 00

  So I guess in regard to like, you know, yeah, I'm still prone to say, God, I need to get running. I've been drinking all week. I need to do some exercise at the weekend. And, you know, again, it's falling into the trap of the, being at the mercy of the shoulds and musts. Rather than thinking about, you know, what am I enjoying? What am I learning? What surprised me this week? Where am I experimenting? What have I discovered this week about myself? And once we start to talk like that, maybe we can sort of, I guess, apply more consistent thinking and therefore change our doing. So you want to run? Let's use that as an example. Yeah, I need to run more, definitely. I need to run more. Why do you need to run more? Do you know, because I want to improve my heart and lung health, I think.

• 42:13Speaker 00

  I think I've got to, it's all right for you because you're young and fit. But, but I think I've got to an age now where I realise there's more of an importance on exercise. So, you know, before I could just, I'd just do it anyway, you know, I'd pick up running every now and then I'd be able to run. I'd go to the gym every now and then, I'd have a great time at the gym for a couple of weeks and then I'll skip it. Yeah, but now, you know, but now it's, it's different. Now I sort of feel as though, you know, I could be fitter, should be.

• 42:39Steven Bartlett?

  I think this year has also sort of illuminated that for everybody, the importance of health. I think it's made us all, well, it has for me, it made me think about my health a lot more. Not, not, not for the, the vain reasons that, you know, a young guy would think about their health because they're trying to, trying to get laid or something. But because, you know, I, I want to live longer and I want to have more memories and those kind of things. Do you know Niall Eyal? He wrote a book called Indistractable.

• 43:00Speaker 00

  I know, yeah, I'm not familiar with, I haven't read it.

• 43:02Steven Bartlett?

  You're probably familiar with the book.

• 43:03Speaker 00

  Yeah, I know the name, but I am, yeah.

• 43:05Steven Bartlett?

  He said this quote to me, which really changed my life and I'm thinking about it all the time. When I find myself procrastinating from doing something or whatever, he said that typically we think we're humans that are seeking pleasure, but we're actually living in the avoidance of discomfort. And when I think about the things that I procrastinate against, or whether, you know, we're at six, seven o'clock in the evening, you think, I can't be bothered to go, whatever. It does ring true to me that I'm actually avoiding some kind of psychological discomfort.

• 43:30Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 43:31Steven Bartlett?

  And so I now, whenever I feel myself, like this weekend, I had, I had this big project to do. I also had this talk that I had to do for my manager, Dom. And I found myself like, and then I've got the book, my book, which I had to do, go through the whole book from start to finish in a day. And doing, oh, fuck yeah. And I'm like low key finding myself, oh, just clean the countertop because that's important. And, and I stopped myself and I thought, you're avoiding the discomfort associated with sitting down for nine hours until six AM in the morning and doing the book. And it wasn't until I realized why, you know, when I started that term has, has been like this flashlight that I shine in like the corner of the room where I'm hiding the, you know, the thing that I don't want to do now.

• 44:13Steven Bartlett?

  So I wondered if it was, you know, for some, in, in regards to your running, if it's in some respects similar, like you're avoiding some kind of discomfort where you think, I'd rather play the guitar.

• 44:21Speaker 00

  I'm convinced of it because running is such an unpleasant experience for me. It's a really good example. I can't stand it. So, but you're absolutely right that, that, that, you know, I totally agree with you that, you know, we, we, we do sort of go about our lives trying to seek moving out of that space of, you know, of, of being uncomfortable. This is why we don't have conflict conversations in the workplace. This is why we don't challenge our own thinking. This is why we don't like change. And, you know, we like, we like to. Operate from a comfort zone is what we do. So yeah, no, I agree with you. I think, I think because running is such an unpleasant experience for me. So that's absolutely awful. Um, I'm probably avoiding it because, you know, I just don't want the experience. Whereas riding a bike isn't so bad for me.

• 45:04Speaker 00

  And um, so, so yeah, so maybe therefore, but um, instead of sat there at four or five o'clock thinking, God, I need to go running in an hour. And I really don't want to. I'll go tomorrow. Maybe, maybe what I should be saying is I need to go running now. No, you don't. And um, why don't you ride a bike? Why don't you?

• 45:22Steven Bartlett?

  Yeah, why don't you? Upstairs.

• 45:25Speaker 00

  Okay. And um, well, I'll have a go on it after this. But um, we should have done a whole interview on that.

• 45:32Speaker 00

  I'm gonna kill two birds with one stone.

• 45:33Steven Bartlett?

  I hate running as well. It's like, I hate the impact on my knees. I just, I don't want to be outside to be able to swerving past people. So I got the Peloton. Um, I, it's low resistance. It's fun, super engaging and gamified because you see the data, you see everyone in the world and where they're placing. You see Jenny fifty five in North Carolina is beating you.

• 45:52Speaker 00

  Yeah, make me feel bad. I don't want to feel bad. I hate Jenny forever.

• 45:57Speaker 00

  That just makes me, that's how unfit I am and how much I hate other people who are fitter than me. But I mean, interesting, it proves how fit you are because you said you don't like running because of your knees and swerving past people. I don't like running because I can't breathe. So you're already winning.

• 46:11Steven Bartlett?

  Chicken and egg. That'll be cured if you start running. Um, but, but, but on that point of um, of psychological discomfort. How does somebody, in your opinion,

• 46:25Steven Bartlett?

  face a challenge that they know is uncomfortable? Like, you know, to be honest, I don't, I don't want to go to the gym or do all these Zoom calls all the time. It's not like, you know, I'm not getting comfort or in pleasure out of doing two hours Zoom calls at the moment about like, you know, biotech or whatever it is, the thing that I'm involved in. But I'm doing it. And I wanted to know in your case, what, what does it take someone who like, doesn't want to do something? Because they know it's uncomfortable to say, do you know what? Fuck it. I'm gonna do it today.

• 46:59Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 47:00Steven Bartlett?

  And is it, does that go back to that point of, of having that like long anchor purpose?

• 47:05Speaker 00

  Yeah, I think it does. I mean, Mohammed Ali said, I hated every moment in the gym, but I did it so I could live the rest of my life like a champion. Yeah. And it's, and in a way it's true, isn't it? That, that, you know, there are, there are component parts to success. And I think a really interesting one is, and the one that most people probably relate to is failure. So people don't like to experience failure, but you know, for example, failure is part payment towards success. So the price of success is always paid in full and in advance. The price of success is always paid in full and in advance. You can't be successful and you start making mistakes. You can't be successful and start having your two hour Zoom calls.

• 47:47Speaker 00

  You know, in a way you need to fail. We need to have these awful conversations. We need to kiss lots of frogs. We need to, you know, do deals which don't work. And so we need to do all these things to enable you to be super successful. So there's lots of things that, again, it comes back to reframing. If we see it as part and parcel, a stepping stone towards a greater advancement, we're probably more likely to do it. And if you see failure as something which is, we're trying to avoid and it's just awful and, you know, and it screams to me that I'm useless. Then we're probably going to stay within a comfort zone. You know, if we embrace failure, then we see it as part payment towards success. And then we see it as something which is an active contribution, a stepping stone towards, you know, being better.

• 48:30Speaker 00

  Maybe we're more likely to indulge in it and not have the discomfort that we associate with it. So, you know, I feel that it is always good to think about, you know, what you, the thing about that end goal, have that purpose, that vision, the mission, you know, what you're seeking to achieve and create. And then think about what those building blocks look like, because, you know, all great achievements are the result of many small achievements. You know, you had Joe Wicks here yesterday. He wasn't super successful overnight. And he probably kissed a lot of frogs. I'm sure he talked about it. You know, his business and career and personal life went in all sorts of different directions like ours.

• 49:09Speaker 00

  And, you know, it's not necessarily, as we said earlier, it's not necessarily what, what happens. It's, it's our interpretation of what's happening, which will then enable us to use that as feedback towards something better.

• 49:21Steven Bartlett?

  And do you find with a lot of the high performance people you've worked with, that their childhood is a definitive reason as to why they are the way they are today? I'm going to try and articulate this if I can, but I've, from speaking to guests on this podcast, and also from a bit of introspection, to be honest, I tend to think a lot of people that have extraordinary outcomes have often had some kind of extraordinary early experience. And I'll give you a couple of examples. The, a lot of the billionaires that I know are really, really successful people that I know,

• 49:59Steven Bartlett?

  cite their father's disapproval as the reason why they've always had a chip on their shoulder. And they've always strived obsessively to be enough, right? Because their father told them they weren't enough.

• 50:10Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 50:11Steven Bartlett?

  Have you seen that in successful people? That there's the, the thing that makes them just a bit fucking weird is often, you know, I think of one particular instance with a friend of mine, a comment their mother made when they were four, that they just can't shake.

• 50:26Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I mean, I'm not a psychiatrist, so I don't delve into backgrounds in a way that maybe someone involved in psychiatry would. You know, so as a performance coach, you tend to work with how people are now, basically. And tell me about what you're thinking and doing, what you're trying to achieve. And more so then to try and deconstruct, you know, or analyze some of the, you know, the earlier experiences. So that's not my thing. Having said that though, you're absolutely right. There seems to be some sort of correlation between extreme experiences and then how people interpret or translate them. And in fact, you know, as you're talking, I was trying to think of a book. I can't think of a book. I wish I could now. And they talk about in this book, the fact that so many super successful people,

• 51:09Speaker 00

  politicians, actors, business people, lost parents when they were young. And there's a direct correlation, believe it or not, it's a direct correlation between people losing parents when they were young and then becoming super performers, being incredibly successful. And the psychology behind it was that you learn independence. And it's almost easy, if you've got these loving, fabulous parents. Parents who, you know, hopefully, you know, many people have got, you're not as independent, you know, whereas, you know, if you lose a parent young, you end up sort of doing things for yourself a little bit earlier. And so maybe that going back to that responsibility, the ownership piece and having to sort yourself out.

• 51:48Speaker 00

  And, you know, it means that people learn some of the skills which enable their talent to then be used differently in the future. But there is a direct correlation, believe it or not. I wish I could tell you the psych, the real psychology and the actual article and the actual piece in the book. But you just reminded me when you're talking about it. So I do think that some people do have these extreme experiences and I think that it's almost easier to get to know ourselves and get to think about life and contextualize things. You know, if we're experiencing things which are outside of our, I guess, our normal field of vision.

• 52:24Steven Bartlett?

  I resonate a lot with that. I, you said, you know, lose a parent, but the reason I resonated with that is because I've said multiple times on this podcast again. That when people have asked me why, why I was successful, I cite that when I was younger, my parents weren't ever in the house. And that made, meant that I had to find a way to make money to feed myself or, you know, my mum was never in the house when I went to bed and she was never there when I woke up. Cause she was just, she slept at her shops sometimes and my dad worked in London for six days a week, which was four hours away. And I, and it was only of the four of us in our, my family, the four siblings. That wasn't the case for my older siblings. When they were younger or when they were my age, my mum and dad were in the house every day doing date nights and all together.

• 53:06Steven Bartlett?

  And then when I grew up, by the age of 10, I could leave the house for three days or two days and they wouldn't actually know that I'd gone. And so that meant that I became like this sort of self autonomous kid at like 12, 13, 14, 15. And then started businesses at 14 and then, you know, went off.

• 53:20Speaker 00

  But you could have gone the other way as well, couldn't you?

• 53:22Steven Bartlett?

  Oh, 100%.

• 53:23Speaker 00

  You know, with that, you know, with that level of freedom and autonomy, but not the maturity and, you know, to deal with that freedom.

• 53:31Steven Bartlett?

  My friend, my best friend said to me, and I'll never forget where I stood when he said it in this takeaway shop. He said, Stephen, you're either going to be a criminal or a millionaire. And it was because I had that, my independence created this connection where I knew that my outcomes were going to be a direct result of my behavior. I always think of like school dinners as the perfect example. For a lot of my childhood, maybe up until the age of about nine, there was always like two quid on the counter, which is like, okay, you take that to school. And then by 10, the two quid wasn't there anymore. So it was like waking up in the morning and being like, how am I gonna eat today? I'd have to find a way. So I'd go and sell cigarettes. Or, you know, I'd like, I knew that there were cigarettes in this room upstairs, which my mom had got from Nigeria one year. So I just went to school and I was just shopping cigarettes

• 54:15Steven Bartlett?

  or chewing gum. And it was that that connection I made super early that my outcomes are a direct and only correlation of sort of connected to my behaviour. So I resonate with that a lot. And it kind of explains the difference between four kids that grew up in the same household, and one, the three of them went to university, LSE, Cambridge, whatever, and one of them dropped out of everything, got kicked out of school and became an entrepreneur.

• 54:37Speaker 00

  It's true, isn't it? So it's not necessarily the, you know, the experience is how we translate that experience and how we channel our feeling into something which could be productive or destructive. You could have become a criminal and a millionaire and got a job with this Tory government. You could be a front bench MP with those credentials. I'm a millionaire criminal.

• 54:59Steven Bartlett?

  There's still a lot of time. But the last thing I really wanted to ask you about was, you know, this idea of distractions. Social media has made it incredibly easy to distract ourselves. And you see, you know, teams becoming much more distracted at work because of all these screens and, you know, the digitalisation of the world and individuals. And what's your thoughts on why we're so distracted and how to overcome it?

• 55:23Speaker 00

  Yeah, it's true that we are distracted. I think focus and concentration have to be practised. So many things can be improved. So whether it's resilience, whether it's concentration, whether it's courage, all these things can be practised. So many, courage, for example, I always say courage is like a muscle. The more you exercise it, the stronger it gets. So it's possible to exercise all these things and be better at them. And I think that it's fine to be distracted because it's actually quite nice to have different stimuli and different provocation. And so we just need to choose when it's good to have that provocation and change, and when we need To concentrate and we need to practise both now.

• 56:05Speaker 00

  Here's a thing for you Adam is that as human beings, we don't multitask. So multitasking is a lie. So for all the all the girls and all the women watching this. And or listening to this, I'm sorry to tell you, it's not true that you don't multitask better than men.

• 56:23Steven Bartlett?

  Amen.

• 56:24Speaker 00

  It's true.

• 56:24Steven Bartlett?

  Amen.

• 56:25Speaker 00

  It doesn't happen. We're both equally as bad. Then we're both useless at it. So what we do is we do rapid switching. So we don't multitask.

• 56:32Steven Bartlett?

  Context switching.

• 56:33Speaker 00

  Exactly. This is why, actually, I can't remember when it was, a couple of years ago, that the the BlackBerry network went down in Abu Dhabi for a weekend from Friday to Monday. Had a forty eight percent decrease in car accidents that weekend.

• 56:46Steven Bartlett?

  Really?

• 56:47Speaker 00

  Because as human beings, we don't multitask. You don't sort of like check your text and drive well. It doesn't work as a human being. So so I think that we are living in an age where it's easy to be distracted and some of these distractions are incredibly useful. We need to come back to greater responsibility and choice. Let's choose, you know, when it's fine to do that and when it's fine not to be. And practice, you know, these levels of concentration and focus that we may need for certain tasks, but we may not for another. So I quite like times when I can sit down and read a book or absorb something or think about something and narrow my focus. Sometimes I quite like sort of TV being on, music being on, phone next to me on the computer.

• 57:31Speaker 00

  Because I actually, I'm sometimes picking up on certain things, which for a level of creativity can be quite useful. A bit of provocation, a bit of a bit of changeability in my thinking because I get distracted by something and come back to it.

• 57:46Steven Bartlett?

  Hmm. I find that as well. I find for some bizarre reason, if I if I go for a walk or if I go to the gym. Inspiration floods into me, but when I'm stood sat in my office trying to think of stuff, it's almost impossible. The shower is another weird place where my ideas seem to show up all at once. And it's like, I'm not like, it's not hyperbole. I'm not exaggerating at all. Like if I if I'm sat here and I'm trying to think of something to write or whatever. I go for a walk and then sometimes I put my my music in. It's like non stop. And I find that quite, you know, interesting because teams are often trying to think of the ideas and creativity and.

• 58:24Speaker 00

  If you say to people, where do you have your best ideas at home? Ask people that question. Where do you have your best ideas? Do you know what they'll say? When I'm walking the dog at home, when I'm in the shower, just about to fall off the sleep, um, on the commute, uh, over breakfast. You know, um, they'll, they'll, they'll come up with all some recreational drugs and they'll come up with all sorts of stuff, but no one will ever say in a boardroom with some mints on the table and a jug of water. No one will ever say that. But, but where do we, where do we, um, you know, try and create ideas in a business at home? We get them around this boardroom table at home. No one ever says, don't get me wrong. You can't get your team in the shower with you. Maybe you've tried. I don't know what it's like around here. Maybe you've tried. I don't know.

• 59:05Speaker 00

  Teammate, bring a towel. But, um, but yeah, maybe, yeah, maybe we can't do that. But we've got to find a way of trying to, you know, uh, create a more natural environment for people to flourish. And I do say to, you know, many organisations, I say to them that, you know, too quick to train the people rather than fix the environment. You know, people say, oh, I need more innovative people. No, you don't. Um, you know, we need to train them on innovation. No, you don't. Let's try and create a culture, an environment where people are free to express themselves. Problem we've got is that, you know, we're so, we're so convergent in our thinking and, uh, you know, we start off as divergent thinkers. We start off making really weird connections. Um, I had a six-year-old once, um, asked me, what does the number nine smell like? Amazing question. I assume

• 59:48Speaker 00

  that's probably the best question I've ever been asked. With all due respect to the interviewer today.

• 59:53Steven Bartlett?

  I was gonna say.

• 59:54Speaker 00

  But, um, but you know, what's the number nine smell like? It's a great question. Um, you know, when was the last time you heard a CEO ask that question? They don't. Um, you know, children ask these divergent questions because they make the connection between two things, usually unconnected. And then they go to school and the school says, why are you asking that? We're doing numbers today. Just concentrate on the numbers. Um, and then we go from divergent thinkers to convergent thinkers. And our careers get better because of it. Our businesses get better because of it. Uh, making simple connections, you know, margins down. Okay. We need to do this. You know, revenues down. Okay. We need to do that.

• 1:00:29Speaker 00

  But what do we need in today's society, in today's world? And I don't think we need convergent thinking. I think we need to move back and get into that divergence space again. And who are the most successful people at the moment? People are making really weird connections. People who, this is where Uber and Airbnb and all these things come from. It's from people who are making the connection between two things previously unconnected because they're still divergent. So let's try and create some environments where people are free to explore, experiment, free to break some of the rules and to talk about things which are not easily put together. And I think that that's the best way in which we can see the opportunity and possibilities in this changing world in which we're living.

• 1:01:14Steven Bartlett?

  How do people find you?

• 1:01:15Speaker 00

  Yeah, Twitter or LinkedIn really. I don't use anything, I don't use Facebook or anything like that.

• 1:01:21Steven Bartlett?

  Or your website.

• 1:01:22Speaker 00

  Yeah, my website and to me, people can contact me through my website. But I used, I started using Twitter again, but LinkedIn is great for me.

• 1:01:30Steven Bartlett?

  I can imagine.

• 1:01:30Speaker 00

  There are about 30,000 people on LinkedIn and that's really where I sort of communicate.

• 1:01:35Steven Bartlett?

  Have you, how do you find social media just out of interest in terms of like?

• 1:01:39Speaker 00

  Do you know, I'm a bit like an alcoholic who can't get the top of the bottle.

• 1:01:45Speaker 00

  I mean, I love the idea of it. You know, I think, God, I should be doing more. But I just don't. People say that you should.

• 1:01:55Steven Bartlett?

  No, if it's not broke.

• 1:01:56Speaker 00

  You should do, yeah, well, but you know what's funny? One of the advice that I give people at the moment, if it ain't broke, you should break it. Because, you know, we almost need to give up what's allowing us to be successful, to allow us to be successful.

• 1:02:08Steven Bartlett?

  Exactly.

• 1:02:08Speaker 00

  And I know it's a counterintuitive argument.

• 1:02:11Steven Bartlett?

  It makes perfect sense to be honest. I mean, that's by definition what innovation is, right?

• 1:02:14Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:02:15Steven Bartlett?

  It's breaking the blueprint, so.

• 1:02:16Speaker 00

  So I think that, you know, and again, look, it's probably like my running, isn't it? It's one of those things which are uncomfortable, so I probably don't do it. So, um, so, you know, what I should do is, is try and find out more about, you know, social media and then.

• 1:02:29Steven Bartlett?

  I'll have a look at your social channels after and obviously we've got a lot of content from this, so we can send it to you in a way that will do perform well if you post it. So, but listen, thank you for your time today.

• 1:02:36Speaker 00

  Thank you.

• 1:02:37Steven Bartlett?

  Very, very generous and it's a really inspiring conversation that's, uh, I actually want to re, it's one of the few conversations where I'm like, I really need to re-listen to this again and maybe with my notepad out and really take notes because there's so many ideas that are really, really profound at times that I'm like, I'm trying to hold on to it and then because you're, because you're full of them, I'm, I'm going back and thinking, ah, and I'm bleeding, you know what I mean? Because there's so much intelligence condensed in such a short period of time.

• 1:03:00Speaker 00

  Very kind.

• 1:03:01Steven Bartlett?

  No, I really, really mean that as well. Yeah, no, good for, good for the self-esteem. No, I really mean that. I'm like, it's, sometimes I have experts on that have really well studied in their field and the things you say, as someone who's ran a multinational business with 700 employees for the last 10 years of my life, I'm like, perfect sense. And I really want to, I could unpack all of those individual topics more, but yeah, thank you, such a pleasure to have you here.

• 1:03:24Speaker 00

  Thank you, thank you for inviting me.