Part Two: Elizabeth Dilling: The Original Candace Owens

Robert concludes the Liz Dilling story with her thrilling exploits to support Father Coughlin in taking down FDR and supporting the Nazis. See omnystudio.com/listener https://omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:04Robert Evans?

  Yeah, I mean, I don't know, Katie. I'm not sure if I think the government would call that terrorism or not. You should really check with your lawyer. Oh, hey, everybody. It's Behind the Bastards. I'm sorry. I was just talking with my guest for this week, Katie Stoll. Katie, let's pretend we weren't talking. How are you doing? How's everything? Everything fine and innocent?

• 0:21Speaker 01

  Absolutely. Nothing incriminating happening over here. I'm above board legal.

• 0:29Robert Evans?

  You had the right to own those F-22s.

• 0:31Speaker 01

  I can vouch for this woman. This woman has done nothing wrong. Nothing wrong. Except watch Gilmore Girls.

• 0:39Robert Evans?

  Nothing wrong. Those were your recreational F-22s. You were allowed to have them. Absolutely.

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• 0:52Robert Evans?

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• 2:28Robert Evans?

  We're talking about Liz Dilling in part two of our BTBs on, uh, she's, you know, the, she's the first, honestly, she's the first, I had titled this as like the first fucking Candace Owens or something like that, or Laura Loomer, cause she's got pieces of those. But you know, now that I think she is more like the precursor to Phyllis Schlafly. Like, that's really probably the best way to, although, as we're going to talk about, the reason why I thought more modern with it is she becomes crowdfunded in a way that is directly mimicking, I mean, both like how a lot of like people just in our industry make their living today, but how a lot of like conservative media people get started, where she is building this like grassroots,

• 3:11Robert Evans?

  like from the, she's like convincing people to give her money to go like root out communists in the world. Like, it's a very modern business model, which is weird to me.

• 3:19Speaker 01

  Absolutely. She tapped into that fear mongering grift real.

• 3:23Robert Evans?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 3:24Speaker 01

  Early on.

• 3:25Robert Evans?

  Exactly. So she is ahead of her time, you know, you can, you never like, we don't like to be like, well, that's a smart lady, but that is a smart lady, just not in a way that most of us like respect people being intelligent. But she clearly is.

• 3:39Speaker 01

  It's a, a smart lady who had the wrong influences and a brain that wasn't put to its proper use and then found its uses. That's, that's what I was getting from our first episode.

• 3:54Robert Evans?

  I think that might, that's a healthy way to look at it as like, oh, if only, if only the things that she was clearly gifted at had been put to a less evil end. Um, but then the question is like, would that have happened? Would, would something less evil have motivated her this way, you know? And I guess that gets into the fiddlier questions about human morality. Anyway.

• 4:13Speaker 01

  It does.

• 4:15Robert Evans?

  The opening of The Red Network, which again, that's her second big book, right? That's, that's basically this telephone book of all of the communists in the country and the secret left wing agents trying to bring down, you know, capitalism. The, uh, the opening of this book was dedicated to the professional patriots, right? Again, it feels very modern where she's like, open this book that's dedicated to the professional patriots. And she describes. That is everyone who is as crazy as she is and believes that the whole country is about to fall to the red. So this book is for all the people that everyone says that you're crazy, but you're not crazy. I know you're not crazy. We all know that, you know, uh, the book's intro warned about the coming communist socialist world conspiracy, quote, "with its four horsemen, atheism, immorality, class hatred, and pacifism for the sake of red revolution is boring within

• 5:00Robert Evans?

  our churches, schools, and government, and is undermining America like a cancerous growth." First off-

• 5:05Speaker 01

  It's so embarrassing how little these conversations have changed. Sorry.

• 5:09Robert Evans?

  Yeah. I, yes, very little. Like, it is-

• 5:12Speaker 01

  Come on.

• 5:13Robert Evans?

  But also, like, the four horsemen, you know, we know what the actual four horsemen are, and they're all cool stuff, like famine, and like war, and plague. And they're not-

• 5:24Speaker 01

  The cool stuff.

• 5:25Robert Evans?

  Immorality, class hatred? The horsemen of class hatred? The horsemen of pacifism for the sake of red revolution? That's just bad writing, Liz. That's just bad writing.

• 5:34Speaker 01

  She's taking some real liberties here.

• 5:36Robert Evans?

  Yeah. Before she gets into the book, she makes sure to thank the staunch DAR, of which the author unfortunately is not a member, which is so sad. And she calls the DAR "the best-informed body of women on this subject in America." She just cannot stop licking those boots. Another person she thanks is Mr. Harry Young, who we talked about last episode, of the American Vigilant Intelligence Federation, uh, and who brought the Protocol to the Elders of Zion to the United States, who she brags was sufficiently annoying in his anti-red free speech to be honored by intimidating libel suits filed by the notorious free speech for reds-only ACLU. So the book was just a reprint of a lot of her old essays and a list of groups like the ACLU,

• 6:20Robert Evans?

  uh, that have what she considered to be known communist ties. One portion of the book is dedicated to the Socialist Party and the New Deal, and argues that the US Socialist Party was growing to subsume the Democratic Party and would soon take it over entirely, and that the New Deal was the instrument through which the Democratic Party would be devoured by the Socialist Party. How's the Socialist Party doing today?

• 6:44Speaker 01

  Yeah, I know.

• 6:46Robert Evans?

  Uh, it's a fanciful document and every notion in Dilling's book is again fanciful at best and outright idiotic at worst. This has been proven by the paths that history took, right? We know that she was wrong. Dilling labeled some 460 American organizations communist, radical pacifist, anarchist, socialist, or IWW controlled. That's the international workers of the world.

• 7:10Speaker 01

  The idea that radical pacifism is something to be afraid of is so wild to me.

• 7:17Robert Evans?

  Pacifists are just, they're, the pacifism only serves the Red Revolution, right? It just stops people from being willing to fight against communism, you know?

• 7:24Speaker 01

  Oh, okay.

• 7:26Robert Evans?

  Even though weirdly enough in like World War II, some of the only people who like her didn't want to fight the Nazis were pacifists.

• 7:34Speaker 01

  Things get messy in war. Your allegiances and the weird.

• 7:38Robert Evans?

  Yeah. She never examines that at all. Uh, so it listed 13, she lists 1300 or so of these different organizations. Uh, because she is a woman, she assumed that her own word would not be of value to the readers of her book without extensive backup. And this is one of the weirdest things about this. She repeatedly be like, I know you're not going to trust what I'm saying about this because I'm just a lady, right? And then she'll provide like, that's how she writes this book a lot. She'll, she'll include mail. So you don't have to take it from me. Here's a man saying the same thing. Like it's both, she's very cognizant of her readers biases and shares them. And in, that's part of the text in a very strange way where she's like, obviously as a girl, I don't know what I'm talking about. Here's a smarter man saying it.

• 8:21Speaker 01

  So fascinating.

• 8:23Robert Evans?

  It's really interesting.

• 8:24Speaker 01

  On some level, she doesn't buy it because she feels called to be the one to write this bullshit.

• 8:31Robert Evans?

  Yes, yes. Now, the Red Network was a massive success among the crank right, which was even then forming as a reaction of the moneyed classes to FDR's New Deal and the terrifying threat of communism abroad and at home. The first ultra wealthy founders of far right anti-communist paranoia have started gearing up in this period and Elizabeth Dilling has helped to make a place for herself as one of the most prominent Red baiters. And the country in the years to come, the red network would be cited as expert testimony in a dozen congressional investigations and legislative investigations and Erickson writes was used successfully in at least one court case. So a bunch of different like this. Her book is cited regularly. It becomes part of a bunch of different attempts to bring charges to different communist groups.

• 9:15Robert Evans?

  There's obviously nothing of any real informative value in the red network. The book existed primarily to condemn people by association using spurious rumors that would tar anyone left of Hitler as a communist subversive looking to outlaw Christianity. Because Liz did such a good job of making her book appear exhaustively sourced by citing numerous prominent cranks, like the guy who helped bring modern antisemitism to the US, it quickly became beloved by police officers because they could say, look, we know this is a bad guy. Look at all the citations that say this group he's a part of is dangerous. Right? Like cops love the red network because they can point to a meeting of an organization in their town and be like, we had to break it up. It's in this book, you know, like she

• 9:55Robert Evans?

  has given them the main thing they need, which is an excuse to go brutalize somebody. The New Republic would warn in an article in the 1930s that Dilling's book carried weight with many law enforcement officers, particularly local cops who were, quote, "only too glad to have a list of suspected communists that they could hassle." The book had been designed for this purpose to provide an excuse for reactionary police officers, congressmen and private mobs to attack regular citizens. On at least two episodes of this show, I've cited the work of pioneering anti fascist journalist Dorothy Thompson, who, among other things, wrote an essay titled, "Who Goes Fascist", that I've quoted a number of times on this. It's the one where she's playing that part of their game. She's like talking about like a normal party in the United States in like

• 10:38Robert Evans?

  the late 30s and is like, I try to imagine if fascism came to America, which of these people would go? And it's, it's a stunning article because it works perfectly today. She describes all the kinds of people who went fascist in our own, we've watched it happen in our own lives. Dorothy's a genius, was a brilliant writer.

• 10:56Robert Evans?

  Dorothy Thompson described Elizabeth Dilling as, quote, "one of the most successful defamers of private character in this country." And that's a very good way to look at her is her, her business is defamation and it's providing an excuse for police officers, for, for thugs, for, for bigots to attack folks by tarring them as communists. That's what it is. Her book is an excuse for violence, you know, more than anything. Now, one of the things that made Elizabeth novel was her willingness to throw all pretense of civility and earnest disagreement out the window. Her enemies were communist traitor subversives, and all liberals were socialists, which meant all liberals were some kind of red. As Christine Erickson writes for the Journal of American Studies, Dilling's willingness to reverently paint all liberals with varying shades of red won her many accolades from

• 11:41Robert Evans?

  the right. What helped make the Red Network an instant hit among patriots was its accessibility to older studies by Representative Hamilton Fish, who headed an investigation in 1931 of communist activities in the US, and Senator Clayton R. Lusk, who compiled a four-volume report of the Joint Committee investigating seditious activities in New York in 1920. Now, these old works weren't particularly accurate, but neither was the new data that had been gathered by guys like Harry Young, right? And neither is anything that Liz is bringing into this. What matters is she's adding all this together, which makes it seem like there's a weight of evidence behind her claims. The Red Network sells very well, but only some of that money goes to Liz. Many copies are distributed and given away or sold by third-party groups with mailing

• 12:24Robert Evans?

  lists, and she doesn't always make money off of this. Still, even though this doesn't necessarily make Liz wealthy, it provides her with one-of-a-kind clout amongst cranks, right? She is now like the top of the list when it comes to this kind of person.

• 12:38Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 12:39Robert Evans?

  Yeah.

• 12:40Speaker 01

  I always feel like a broken record, but I have to say it, it's just, it's the same playbook now.

• 12:46Robert Evans?

  Lying is the right thing to do. Lying is the right way to make a living, you know? It's just easier.

• 12:51Speaker 01

  Yeah. And giving people the permission structure to do the bad things or to villainize people to, you know, bring the force of the law, whatever.

• 13:02Robert Evans?

  One of the most reliable ways to make a lot of money in American media is to find a group of people that a bunch of assholes already want to hurt, and then give them an excuse to hurt those people, you know? Great way to make money in America.

• 13:15Speaker 01

  Oof, thank God she didn't have a Twitter account.

• 13:17Robert Evans?

  Yeah. People treated her in this era like how I imagine Alex Jones wishes he was more consistently treated as a heroic truth teller who for the very first time had provided regular Americans with a way to fight back against the Reds who, you know, were destroying the country. One of Elizabeth's fans told her that he consulted the Red Network almost daily, a fact that implies a life more depressing than I can express. She was popular among women with influential husbands, too, which gave her a kind of influence in and of itself. And that's like, an interesting thing to me is a lot of her claims to like, being able to change things is like, the wife of this guy started her ringing her husband about Liz's bullshit. And so this guy like, got involved in making changes.

• 13:59Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 14:00Robert Evans?

  It's a, yeah. Unfortunate what a good business that is to be in in this period of time, but it does work.

• 14:05Speaker 01

  And smart of, smart of her, I guess, to, to pinpoint that as profitable for her.

• 14:11Robert Evans?

  Yeah. And, and she's very much cognizant of that, of that, like, this is one way you can change the world is by getting wives to harass their husbands about stuff like this.

• 14:19Speaker 01

  Very effective.

• 14:21Robert Evans?

  Yeah. Many of the people and organizations named in her book were Jewish, a fact that was not missed by the outright fascists and Nazi sympathizers that were increasingly organizing in the United States as the 30s wore on. The German-American Bund distributed free copies of the Red Network. So did the Aryan Bookstore of Los Angeles, which was founded in 1933. This was, this was an institution in LA for years, for quite a long time.

• 14:44Speaker 01

  The Aryan Bookstore? I have not.

• 14:46Robert Evans?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. The Aryan Bookstore. I wanted to look into this. So for an idea of the kind of good respectable conservative writing that the Aryan Bookstore published, I found a 1940 FBI file on the Aryan Bookstore that included several examples of their original publications. So, one of these was a pamphlet for the United Florida Ku Klux Klan, who apparently paid to have their weekly newspaper distributed via the bookstore. Here's how one paragraph of that document read. "Why the Ku Klux Klan? The facts about the Ku Klux Klan, its birth, mission, and purpose have been most widely distorted by the Jew-controlled news media. Immediately after the Civil War, the Jew radicals and revolutionaries who had gained a large control over the Union government sent their carpetbaggers stooges." And I'm

• 15:30Robert Evans?

  not even going to finish this paragraph because it gets a lot worse after that. You get the idea. Liz's book is being sold by these people, right?

• 15:36Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 15:37Robert Evans?

  Like, I don't need to finish that statement for you to know the company her ideas are keeping.

• 15:42Speaker 01

  My god. Yikes.

• 15:45Robert Evans?

  Yeah, I'm not exaggerating by calling you basically a Nazi if your books are primarily being sold in the Aryan bookstore of Los Angeles. What I just read should make it clear that, as always, Elizabeth Dillings' anti-communism was a synonym for antisemitism and fascist hatred. Another Aryan bookstore publication, sold right alongside the Red Network, was the Christian Youth Corps Weekly Report. Sophie's gonna show you a little excerpt from the Christian Youth Corps Weekly Report. It's got a very fascist-looking flag with like a plus sign and like a white circle in her red background, almost like a swastika.

• 16:21Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 16:23Robert Evans?

  Yeah. "Our emblem, the red field, is for the blood of Christ that was shed for us. The white circle is symbolic of the ever-loving life through Christ and the cross." Oh, good. That seems... And then the first article under the Christian Youth Corps Weekly Report, "What is Jewish Ritual Murder?"

• 16:40Speaker 01

  Oh, my god!

• 16:42Robert Evans?

  That other great publication. Again, these are just Nazi papers. Liz is just a Nazi. She's selling her book in Nazi bookstores because she's a Nazi. I'm sharing all of this stuff because...

• 16:52Speaker 01

  Yeah, I don't think that she would shirk from that description.

• 16:55Robert Evans?

  I mean, she, after a certain point, she sure would. But yeah, during this period of time, I think you're right. She would be proud to be identified with them.

• 17:02Speaker 01

  Sure. I bet she still continues with her anti-communism part, though.

• 17:07Robert Evans?

  So, yeah, I'm sharing all this stuff because I want people to understand Liz Dillings' bedfellows from the jump are outright Nazis. This is never a thing she's tricked by. She doesn't like fall into this. She's not surprised by the fact that she's like standing side by side with these folks. These are her, these are her allies from the jump. And the fact that she's also popular with garden variety conservatives is because many garden variety conservatives were also basically Nazis until World War II made that too dangerous an ideology to a spouse. Dilling identified herself with these people from the jump, writing in the Red Network that Nazi Germany was only mean to Jewish people defensively. Quote, "The large number of revolutionary Russian Jews in Germany doubtless contributed towards making fascist Germany antisemitic."

• 17:51Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah. She's absolutely a Nazi.

• 17:53Robert Evans?

  Yeah, she's fucking for sure a Nazi. Easily. Easy to judge her as that.

• 17:58Speaker 01

  If she was living in Germany, she'd have the armband, you know?

• 18:01Robert Evans?

  Hey, don't worry. She'll get to Germany before this story's over.

• 18:04Speaker 01

  Oh, good. Oh, yeah. She hasn't traveled in a minute.

• 18:07Robert Evans?

  Yeah.

• 18:10Robert Evans?

  For the most part, while she's been on this ideological journey, Elizabeth has had numerous allies, but none of them held a candle to the man who was her primary peer and influence, her real, in a lot of ways, like, this is the guy that she sees herself as subservient to, and sees herself as really, like, working to, like, aid and further. This is the great man of her era, the finest reactionary rabble-rouser of his day. Oh, my god. Father Charles Coughlin. Oh, my god. Now, we've talked about Father Coughlin in the past. He's come up a couple of times on this show. As you'd expect from the name, Father Coughlin was a Catholic priest who was also his era's equivalent of, I mean, he's another, like, Alex Jones-type figure. There's a lot of these guys at the time.

• 18:52Robert Evans?

  He is like a reactionary, right-wing radio guy who's ranting about communist subversion on the air. He's infamous for spreading racist conspiracy theories about communism and the Jews, and he's primarily motivated, after a point, by an insane and unreasoning hatred of FDR's New Deal. That's a big thing for Father Coughlin in his, like, heyday. Now, to give you a brief overview of his life, Charles Coughlin had been born in 1891 in Hamilton, Ontario, to a devout Catholic family who encouraged him to enter preparatory seminary school at St. Michael's College when he was just 13. He'd graduated in 1911 as president of the first graduating class of his newly-established college, and then entered the seminary proper. Despite his confirmed status as a Canadian, his precise shade of Catholicism drew him

• 19:37Robert Evans?

  to the United States, in particular, to Waco, where he worked for the Basilean Order. Now, this basically means that he was really into this particular stream of, like, it's Catholic, but it's, like, orthodox-coded monasticism, because, like, the Basileans are mostly popular in Ukraine. But again, it's a weird, like, almost orthodox-y colored Catholic thing, as far as I can tell. I don't understand it. Well, I'm not super into Catholicism. Anyway, he gets ordained on June 29, 1916, and started teaching psychology and a few other classes at Assumption College in Ontario. In 1918, the Basilean Order decided that all of its members needed to take a vow of poverty, right? So they're like, "We really think that, you know, what we're doing is best, if everyone agrees, never to have any money."

• 20:22Robert Evans?

  And Father Coughlin is like, "Well, I don't see why I need to be poor." And so he leaves. I was gonna say, he didn't like that, right? Whoa, wait, we're pouring out? No, no, no, no, no, no. So he joins a diocese and clergy in Detroit and his career continued along without incident until 1926, when he was asked to help raise money to build a new parish in Royal Oak, Saint Therese of Lusieux. And he had been interested in the burgeoning new technology of radio for some time and decided to work out a deal with a local station to help him to let him perform a radio show to raise money. Father Coughlin turned out to have a gift for this and his fundraiser was a huge success, in large part because he doesn't just stick to religion. A big portion of his first broadcasts were dedicated

• 21:04Robert Evans?

  to ranting about the spread of communism in the United States, which he saw in terms very similar to Elizabeth Dilling. In fact, she caught his first broadcast and Amy Die suspected helps to radicalize her that like she watches him give this first broadcast when she's getting started as an anti-communist activist and this is a big thing that like motivates him. Now, Dilling's anti-communism was firstly rooted in her Christian faith, but as time grew on, she grew furious at the fact that most priests and pastors were not like Father Coughlin. As one biographer wrote, "She became nauseated by her church's attitude towards communism, had to restrain to herself to avoid being thrown out and had no time to waste in a church activity." Right? So she's disgusted by the actual churches

• 21:48Robert Evans?

  that she goes to and she's really drawn to this guy because he's acting the way she thinks every priest ought to be acting. Right? She doesn't understand why every man of faith in her world isn't talking like Father Coughlin. So that's a big part of why she loves this guy.

• 22:01Speaker 01

  The guy that refused to take the vow of poverty.

• 22:04Robert Evans?

  That would not take a vow of poverty.

• 22:06Speaker 01

  It's so interesting, like, just despite being raised a certain way, although there's plenty of contradictions in how she was raised, but that the Catholic, just the religious aspect, but like, no, I know better than the priests. I know better than the church that I've grown up in. I find it distasteful. It's weird.

• 22:28Robert Evans?

  Yeah, I mean, I think it makes sense if you understand that like, For someone like this, religion is not about what the faith says, or even what God says. It's about finding the ultimate boss to back up that whatever your opinion is, is right. Right? You have the ultimate call to authority. That's all that it is to them, really, I think.

• 22:46Speaker 01

  Yeah, absolutely.

• 22:48Robert Evans?

  So one of Liz and Father Coughlin's favorite Bible verses was Matthew 1034. "Think not that I am come to send peace on earth. I come not to send peace, but a sword." Now, this is, you'll get this, that Pete Hegseth likes that verse too, by the way. They believed only organized political Christianity could defeat the radical left. By the early 1930s, when Dilling was publishing her most influential books, CBS picked up Coughlin's program. And by the end of 1931, it had more than 40 million listeners. By 1933, the year before the Red Network's publication, Coughlin had 106 clerks to handle the delusional mail from his fans. In 1935, the Radio League of his parish had cashed $4 million in money orders in just 20 months.

• 23:32Robert Evans?

  Coughlin, like Dilling, yeah, so she's, I mean, yeah, this, this brings in a shitload of money, right?

• 23:37Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 23:38Robert Evans?

  Like, Coughlin is famous in a way that almost no one is in this period of time. Unlike Dilling, Coughlin was initially a supporter of FDR, right? Not out of any strong political conviction. He certainly doesn't like believe particularly in FDR's politics. But he does believe that he really ought to be involved in a presidential administration. And so in early 1932, he actually meets FDR. And FDR promises, "If I get elected, I'll, I'll go to you directly for like advice." You know, "I'll ask you for your advice on different things." Because, because Coughlin, he has a bunch of things he wants to advise the presidency about. So Coughlin backs FDR because he thinks he's going to have an end to the new administration. And in fact, Father Coughlin invents a couple of important catchphrases that help like sell FDR's campaign,

• 24:22Robert Evans?

  including "The new deal is Christ's deal." But after FDR wins, Roosevelt's like, "Well, this guy's obviously crazy. I, I, let's block his number." Like, "I'm not actually going to go to him for advice or anything." And Father Coughlin, when he realizes he's been betrayed, loses his mind and begins dedicating himself to attacking the new deal as godless communism. And this is what's funny to me.

• 24:43Speaker 01

  Fascinating.

• 24:43Robert Evans?

  Because Dilling hates FDR from the start. She loves Coughlin from the start, but she always ignores that Coughlin likes FDR when he thinks he's going to get something out of FDR. Like, she, she can't square with that.

• 24:56Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 24:57Robert Evans?

  In 1946, Coughlin starts a weekly newspaper titled "Social Justice" and used it to attack FDR. He joined with an alliance of anti-Roosevelt figures to stop the president's reelection campaign, campaigning alongside Huey Long, Reverend Gerald L.K. Smith, and of course, Elizabeth Dilling. By the late 30s, she'd become almost as in-demand a speaker as him and was giving speeches several times a week at women's clubs, veterans' clubs, chambers of commerce, and other civic organizations around the country. During the election, she often gave five speeches a day. Now, by this point, she'd become a big enough name that she was taking home 50% of the money she collected during her talks, plus expenses and an honorarium. So, she's doing okay, but this still isn't big money by her standards.

• 25:40Robert Evans?

  That said, her motivation to doing this is not financial primarily. It's because, within the very narrow window of what women ought to be doing that she espoused, this was the path that allowed her the most agency and fame, right?

• 25:53Speaker 05

  Sure.

• 25:53Robert Evans?

  And she's not breaking the rules, and partly because she's not taking too much money. But this is like, the most she gets to be out in the world while pretending that she's still holding to her values about that sort of thing.

• 26:04Speaker 05

  Is Huey Long, is that the Kingfish guy?

• 26:09Robert Evans?

  Yeah, it is Huey Long. We've got to talk about Huey. Huey is, yeah, he's a Louisiana governor, who is a fascinating figure.

• 26:17Speaker 05

  Dare I say, certified side bastard.

• 26:23Robert Evans?

  Yeah, for sure, side bastard. Well, he'll get his episodes one of these days. He's been, there's just a lot to say about old Huey. They don't make them like that anymore in American politics, for better and for worse.

• 26:34Speaker 05

  The Kingfish guy, yeah, I would say so.

• 26:37Robert Evans?

  Yeah, oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Nobody like Huey. Nobody like Huey. It's a shame. I mean, Huey's last chapter especially, I do wish more politicians would take a leaf out of, the end of his career.

• 26:52Speaker 05

  All right, it's time for the bastards on Huey.

• 26:54Robert Evans?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 26:58Robert Evans?

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• 27:22Speaker 06

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• 27:58Robert Evans?

  Do ask your doctor about fewer medicines. Visit devoto.com or call 1-877-844-8872.

• 28:05Speaker 07

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• 28:39Robert Evans?

  So Amy Die's thesis does a good job of describing how Elizabeth evolved as a speaker, using lessons that she cribbed from Father Coughlin's program as a rubric. Elizabeth Dilling presented her speeches much like Coughlin's, full of anguish and hateful words. Elizabeth would incorporate props into her speeches, such as red banners, YWCA songbooks, magazines, pamphlets, and of course, newspapers. Elizabeth would sing songs about the so-called Red Menace and ridicule it at every opportunity. Her husband, Albert, would accompany Dilling on the piano and pass out sheet music to provoke the audience. A favorite of the audience attending her speeches was Dilling's impressions of Eleanor Roosevelt. Elizabeth would speak in a Yiddish accent, ridiculing the First Lady at every opportunity. Elizabeth's speeches would normally last around two hours, and the audience loved every minute of it. The audience sat raptly,

• 29:24Robert Evans?

  fearing it might miss a good story or important reference. She was always careful to end and often begin her lectures by acknowledging that, again, she was, quote, "just a woman with a mouth," in her words. And true to that, her audiences were never as big as the ones that Coughlin could draw. But she was easily the most famous woman in far-right politics for her time. And while a big crowd for her was seldom more than 100 or 200 people, her fans were unusually dedicated. Dilling later recalled, "After one lecture, about 50 people from the audience arose to pledge their lives to Jesus as the antidote to communism."

• 29:59Speaker 05

  Wow. Okay.

• 30:01Robert Evans?

  Yeah, good stuff. Now, while Father Coughlin became his own cottage industry with a vast staff, Elizabeth continued to do all of her own research and writing. She is a one-woman shop. Her husband Albert was her only assistant, and he helped so often that his real work suffered. Over time, despite her strongly stated belief that women should not work and certainly shouldn't be the breadwinner of the family, her work began to make up the bulk of the family income. In 1935, she'd started reaching out to one of the most famous men in Chicago for help, Charles R. Walgreen. What business do we think Charles R. Walgreen was in? Get any guesses to what company he helped start?

• 30:39Speaker 05

  Drugstore pharmacies?

• 30:39Robert Evans?

  Yeah, yeah. Yeah, this is the CVS guy. You're right. You're right.

• 30:42Speaker 05

  CVS guy, Rite Aid, yeah.

• 30:44Robert Evans?

  Yeah, this is the Rite Aid dude. Yes, yeah, yeah.

• 30:46Speaker 05

  I never thought, I never even-

• 30:48Robert Evans?

  The man who founded 7-Eleven, Charles R. Walgreen.

• 30:49Speaker 05

  It never passed my mind that Walgreens was named after a person.

• 30:54Robert Evans?

  For sure. Yeah, it's a guy. It's a guy. Starts as a bootlegger, if I'm not mistaken. Or basically, because they needed a way to legally sell people booze during prohibition, and that's where Walgreens got its start. Now, because Walgreen's niece attended the University of Chicago, Elizabeth thought that he would be willing to help her launch a war against communism among the school staff. And basically, she goes up and says, "Do you know how many of these teachers are in my book, The Red Network, as like, card-carrying socialists and communist infiltrators?" And Walgreen is horrified, and he indeed withdraws his niece from the college when Dilling shows him how many professors were suspected communists. Now, one of the men that she accused was Harold Swift, a president of the Board of Trustees she considered a cream puff type of red.

• 31:37Robert Evans?

  Quote, "One of the millionaires who like to play around with radicals." So again, this is not like a, an actual political firebrand. This is like a rich guy who's on like the board of a big university. He's just not a dick. But she says, "Some rich men turned to booze, some to chorus girls and others to communism." When the revolution came, his throat would be slit. And the communism is like, "Maybe we should pay teachers more and stuff." I have a feeling that's more, more what she's considering that.

• 32:04Speaker 01

  Evil.

• 32:05Robert Evans?

  Position. Yeah. Despite her dire claims, the committee that investigated Swift found no reason to take action against him. But Dilling was regularly successful in ruining careers and launching waves of random hate at people she decided were guilty of communism. And again, there's a lot, a lot in common with like the modern anti-progressive communist, you know, fucking professor on campus crusade that's especially ignited.

• 32:29Speaker 01

  She sounds like some Laura Loomer type for real.

• 32:31Robert Evans?

  Laura Loomer type, there's Bill Ackman in there, you know, some of this fucking.

• 32:35Speaker 01

  This fear mongering around your universities and the education system and.

• 32:41Robert Evans?

  And she, but she's one of the first people on the right to do that in an organized way and doing it in a way that you could, you could literally just swap the names out. And it's the same way this, this, this reads today when people accuse professors and stuff of this. Yeah. Dilling was regularly successful in ruining people's careers, but like her idol, Father Coughlin, she resolved the greatest effort of her working life for the fight to unseat FDR. In speeches, that election, the 1936 election, Dilling told audiences of DAR members and Rotarians that if FDR won reelection, there would be zero chance of another free election ever taking place in the United States. And we can see just how right she was.

• 33:18Speaker 01

  God, she was prescient.

• 33:19Robert Evans?

  Yeah, she really, she saw it all coming. That was the end of democracy in America. While Coughlin was clearly a power hungry opportunist, willing to bend for the sake of his own influence, Elizabeth pursued her political advocacy with the feverish intensity of a true believer. She didn't just campaign against FDR. She dedicated herself to finding his replacement. Now, for some reason, she decided the best way to do this was to sabotage the potential candidacy of another man that she saw as just as bad as. FDR, so she decides I have to make sure the right man gets like in position to take down FDR. And the best way to do that is to stop another guy I think is even worse from becoming a candidate. And the guy that she sees is even worse is like a potential disastrous Republican presidential candidate in 36

• 34:03Robert Evans?

  is Senator William Bora of Idaho. And her fear was that Senator Bora might win the Republican nomination, which would lead to what she considered a communist versus communist general election. Right? If Bora runs against FDR, it's just two communists on the ballots. Let's take a look at this communist senator Elizabeth dedicated herself to destroying. William Edgar Bora had been born the year the Civil War ended. He grew up in Kansas, but moved to Idaho to practice law before he was elected to the Senate in 1907. He became known as a progressive insurgent against President Taft's policies and fought against both the Treaty of Versailles and turned Calvin Coolidge down when he offered to make Bora his running mate in 1924. Bora was mixed on the New Deal, which is why he decided to run in 1936.

• 34:47Robert Evans?

  But this is also why Dilling saw him as just as bad as FDR, because he's pro New Deal. He just wants it to be somewhat different, right? And so she's like, he's just still a communist. Now, Bora also was supportive of the ACLU and was in favor of extending diplomatic recognition to the USSR, a country that undeniably existed. All this added up to a communist in Liz's book.

• 35:09Speaker 01

  That's like, that's no go for her. She's been over there.

• 35:15Robert Evans?

  We

• 35:15Speaker 01

  You can't have diplomatic relations with those demons.

• 35:18Robert Evans?

  You can't acknowledge that they exist, even though they do. It's a very like, this is that we're gonna do this with fucking Taiwan for a huge part of like the latter 20th century, where we're just like, no, if you want to talk to China, you have to talk to Taiwan. And some people who are rational be like, but like, guys, you can feel however you want about the Civil War, but like Taiwan is obviously not China. There's a whole country. There's millions of people, hundreds of millions of people living in China governing. We can't just pretend this island speaks for all of them. That's stupid as shit, but we did it for a long time. I love that.

• 35:52Speaker 01

  I'm just gonna pretend like a no-no. I don't know what you're talking about.

• 35:57Robert Evans?

  Can't be communist if I don't say so. It's still Lazar over there. Shut up.

• 36:01Speaker 01

  It's like, grow up, la-la-la-la.

• 36:04Robert Evans?

  It's really funny.

• 36:05Speaker 01

  Children.

• 36:07Robert Evans?

  As Di described, from, this is Liz talking about Bora, quote, "Both the public and the Chicago Tribune would call Bora the idol of Moscow. To sway votes against Bora, Elizabeth wrote a pamphlet entitled 'Bora from Within.' The Grand Old Republic Party distributed 5,000 copies at its national convention in Cleveland. Soon after, Elizabeth started taking credit for denying Bora the presidential nomination. After basking in the glow of Bora's defeat, Elizabeth eyed another presidential nominee, so whom she deemed as being unworthy. That person would be none other than Kansas Governor Alfred M. Landon. Elizabeth saw Alfred M. Landon as a night clerk trying to appear as a serious candidate for the Oval Office. Due to his apprehension, Landon had a hard time speaking in front of a large crowd. Elizabeth feared that Roosevelt would out-talk Landon, and

• 36:52Robert Evans?

  therefore FDR would win the presidency." I gotta give Liz credit for one thing, which is she is right. Alfred Landon was a dogshit candidate for the presidency. Terrible, especially against FDR. You want to take maybe the man with the greatest natural political instincts, who's ever become a president of the United States, and you put Alf fucking Landon next to his ass? Okay, yeah, that was gonna work. Yeah.

• 37:22Speaker 01

  Just anybody that doesn't like speaking in front of crowds, I have, it's not the job for you.

• 37:26Robert Evans?

  Yeah, we'll get the guy who's scared of speaking in crowds to fight FDR in a fucking political cage match. That'll work, that'll work. He's not charismatic. He's not the most beloved man in American politics. So it eventually becomes clear that Landon is going to win the Republican nomination, and so Liz has no choice but to try and help his campaign, right? So she's like, okay, I wanted to stop him, but he's going to be it, so I have to coax him into seeming competent. This would prove to be very difficult for her, because she doesn't know Alf Landon, and her incendiary speeches and columns about what Landon should do have the effect of just making him seem worse, right? She's trying to help the campaign, but all she does is attack him, and it just makes him,

• 38:08Robert Evans?

  it just eats away at his support base even more. The Dillings even named their dog, who they find stupid and annoying, Landon, and that fact tells you a lot. Lot that like, but they named their dog after a guy they hate, and also they hate their dog.

• 38:21Speaker 01

  Also, they hate their dog.

• 38:23Robert Evans?

  You don't have to have it. You know that, right? Like, if you hate the dog, you don't need, that doesn't need to be your dog.

• 38:30Speaker 01

  Yeah, and you don't have to mock your dog. Yeah, this is confusing.

• 38:34Robert Evans?

  This is confusing.

• 38:35Speaker 01

  Weird.

• 38:36Robert Evans?

  I don't understand your choices.

• 38:38Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 38:40Robert Evans?

  But again, it was Landon or FDR. So Elizabeth and her husband set to work finding a way to save him from the Jewish people they believed were secretly running his campaign. It was one of their, there was like, well, Landon's not a great candidate, but all these Jews are running his campaign.

• 38:53Speaker 01

  That's what's really ruining it.

• 38:54Robert Evans?

  It's like, nah, man. Alf Landon, like Barack Obama himself could have like injected Alf Landon with the raw essence of his charisma. And the sheer weight of Landon's anti charisma would have drowned out the Obama cells. Or I don't, you know what I'm getting at here, right?

• 39:13Speaker 01

  There was no hope for this man.

• 39:14Robert Evans?

  There's no hope for this man. No one could have made Alf Landon a president. That was simply not possible. Until Hubert Humphrey, there was never a weaker fucking candidate for the presidency.

• 39:27Robert Evans?

  Yeah, so Albert, her husband, this is Dilling's husband, gets a job with Alf Landon's campaign headquarters in Chicago. Because again, they know that, well, we don't have any connections to Landon. So if we're going to convince him that we know how he's got to win, we need to get you, Albert. You have to get your foot in the door in the, uh, the Chicago campaign office. And Albert does get a job for the Landon campaign, but as soon as he starts work, on the first day, he realizes something terrible. Both of his bosses are Jewish men.

• 39:53Robert Evans?

  And you think that's gonna work for this guy? Here's Die. She describes what happened next. Elizabeth was convinced that only overconfident executives supported Landon. Elizabeth made this assumption after she and Albert dined with six executives who claimed they did not need to campaign because Landon would win easily. She complained that neither Landon nor Roosevelt discussed the real issue, which was Marx versus Washington. After Roosevelt won and Landon carried only two states. Dilling Solis was to say, I told you, Sol, to the industrialists who had predicted Landon would win. They got what they deserved, she said. Two states. My God. Have some fucking self-respect, Alf.

• 40:33Robert Evans?

  Honestly, if you had any self-respect, the thing to do would be to like, watch one Roosevelt speech, like, one of his fucking fireside chats and be like, no, I don't got this juice. I simply don't have the juice to take this man out. Like, I'm Alf Landon. No one can blame me for realizing this is beyond my abilities.

• 40:49Speaker 01

  My name's Alf Landon.

• 40:51Robert Evans?

  I'm literally named Alf Landon. You want me to go up against this guy? He doesn't have legs and he's kicking my ass. Like, my god.

• 41:01Speaker 01

  He can run circles around me.

• 41:03Robert Evans?

  Yeah, yeah. Like, Jesus. Just, you have, there's a degree of sympathy you have to have for like, oh, you thought you could beat FDR in 1936. You. You. So, Dilling got out of the 36 election with at least more grace than her idol, Father Coughlin. Coughlin had made the mistake of backing a third party, the Union Party. This was an extension of an organization that he had formed earlier that year, the National Union for Social Justice. And just by the way, if you want to think about like, what a shit show it was, when, when Biden dropped out at like, the last possible minute, and the Democratic Party had to line up behind a single candidate with just a couple of months before the election. Coughlin tries to do that, but with starting a new party in the last year of the, the

• 41:48Robert Evans?

  year, the year of the election.

• 41:50Speaker 01

  He's, he's overestimating his own influence here.

• 41:54Robert Evans?

  He is. And again, because Coughlin, Dilling loves him, but he's not the same ideologically as her. He is a fascist, but he's not a pro-capitalist fascist. There are pro-capitalist fascists, and there are anti-capitalist fascists. And in fact, part of what the Night of Long Knives was, one thing that happened in the Night of Long Knives in Nazi Germany, is that they got rid of the anti-capitalist fascists. But in this day and age,

• 42:19Speaker 01

  What was the name of this thing? The Union of So, for Social Justice?

• 42:23Robert Evans?

  So, National Union for Social Justice. And he loves the term Social Justice.

• 42:26Speaker 01

  Not in line with her.

• 42:27Robert Evans?

  It isn't, it isn't, it isn't. It's social justice, number one, it means a very different thing to Catholicism in this time than it does when people use the term today. People use social justice today, do not think of it in a religious, social justice is a Catholic term in this time, in period. It very much is considered one. It's something the church cares a lot about, right? Um, and it, but cares about from its standpoint. I'm not saying you should view the Catholic Church in the 30s as woke and a modern.

• 42:53Speaker 01

  This is, you know what? This is a good clarification for me.

• 42:57Robert Evans?

  Yeah. Yeah. But Father Coughlin's Union Party is anti-capitalist and anti-monopolist, right? Because anti-monopolism is like the mo, the big populist interest at the time. It's like trust busting in the US. So if you are populist, you have to be anti-monopoly, kind of regardless of whether you come down. And that's just the way things work in America at this point in time. Um, so again, the fact, this, the fact this might sound like Coughlin is somewhat on the left, he's not at all. That's, he's just kind of going for the big populist interest at the time, which include a lot of trust busting. And Coughlin does add a shitload of antisemitism in the mix, which makes it clear that he is still just warming up a chunk of Nazi politics, right? It's just a slightly different chunk

• 43:39Robert Evans?

  than the one Dilling finds appealing. Um, and you know, obviously added in this mix, he also puts a lot of hatred of the New Deal. Per an article in the Bentley Historical Society Library of the University of Michigan, quote, "The National Union for Social Justice teamed up with Frances Townsend, an activist, and Gerald L. K. Smith, an organizer and white supremacist, to form the Union Party. The expressed goal of the Union Party was to unseat Roosevelt in the 1936 presidential election. They put forward their own candidate, William Limkey, hoping Limkey could draw enough votes away from Roosevelt to allow Alf Landon, the Republican candidate, to win." So again, they're both trying to get Landon to win, both her and like Dilling and Coughlin, but they're doing it in very different ways. Dilling is trying to support the Republican Party the traditional way. Coughlin is trying

• 44:23Robert Evans?

  to sabotage FDR's campaign by drawing votes away from Roosevelt so that Landon wins. That's what his hope for a third party is, right? Um, now the problem is that Coughlin also, not only does he attach his name to this attempt, he makes a Public promise that if the Union Party doesn't get nine million votes in November, he will retire from public life. If I can't bring nine million votes to Limkey in November, I'll get off the air. You'll never hear from Father Coughlin again. Now, had Father Coughlin moved nine million votes, that would have been 20% of the total votes cast in 1936, which is a hell- no one's ever had that kind of popularity. Fucking Joe Rogan could never have claimed 20% of the electorate moved because of his fucking actions.

• 45:07Robert Evans?

  Father Coughlin is not even coming close to this, right? He fumbles historically. The Union Party can't even get a million votes. Very funny. Now, because he promised, Father Coughlin does briefly quit his radio show, although he comes back like two months later, something like that. I never, I never said I'd go away forever. Well, he says, I said I'd go away forever and I was going to, but then a friend of mine who just died on his deathbed, his last wish was that I start being on the radio again. What could I do? I'm not gonna say no to my friend's dying wish, right?

• 45:43Speaker 05

  Robert, I promise, Katie and Robert, I promise my dying wish will not be that you do more podcasts.

• 45:51Robert Evans?

  No, Sophie's dying wish was that I get 11 million dollars to spend on heroin, you know? She always said, I hope Robert gets 11 million dollars for heroin.

• 46:00Speaker 05

  But I did say 11 million. 11 million dollars for Robert's, uh, uh, joy of choice.

• 46:08Robert Evans?

  Yeah, that means heroin, yeah. I know. Very generous of you and your dad, yeah. Uh huh. Yeah. Yeah, anyway, heroin, it's good for, it's not. It's not, but it is time for it. I mean, it's better than today's drugs. Perfect timing. Fentanyl, these kids are doing, fucking heroin's basically Ozempic compared to that shit. Anyway, here's ads.

• 46:28Robert Evans?

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• 46:52Speaker 06

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• 47:28Robert Evans?

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• 48:08Robert Evans?

  We're back. Probably shouldn't be comparing heroin to Ozempic. We still want to get that sweet, sweet Ozempic money. Ozempic, I don't know much about whether or not it's good for you, actually. So I feel weird about advertising it.

• 48:20Speaker 05

  So we stay neutral around here.

• 48:23Robert Evans?

  Seems like we need more longitudinal data before I'm going to be doing that.

• 48:26Speaker 05

  I sometimes it's like...

• 48:27Robert Evans?

  I'm not against it. I just don't understand.

• 48:30Speaker 05

  I'm not against drugs that help people. I'm against advertising drugs that I can't vouch for.

• 48:35Robert Evans?

  Yeah, I don't know.

• 48:36Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 48:37Robert Evans?

  Like dick pills are one thing. I just worry about like encouraging everyone to take that shit. We don't know enough about it yet.

• 48:45Speaker 05

  We also like don't do hair loss drugs ads because we know that shit doesn't work.

• 48:50Robert Evans?

  Like, no, no, I think it does now is the weird like I don't, I didn't want to do hair loss ads. Cause like when I was a kid, Alex Joe, like that was always the thing that meant something was shady. But I think like the, there are actual hair loss solutions now that aren't bullshit. Like, but I, I'm not super knowledgeable about that world, as you can tell by my head of hair.

• 49:09Speaker 05

  Like, uh, what's that? Like minoxidil or whatever.

• 49:12Robert Evans?

  Minoxidil. Yeah, I think it is real, right? Like there are real stuff now.

• 49:16Speaker 05

  There's success.

• 49:17Robert Evans?

  Yeah. Anyway, whatever. Do whatever you want. Your gender affirming care is your gender affirming care. Just look at it that way. That's what a baldness cure is for men.

• 49:25Speaker 05

  Just don't blame me.

• 49:27Robert Evans?

  Yeah, that's what testosterone supplements are for, you know, like fucking RFK Junior, who wants to stay swole in his sixties, even though he can't fucking do a proper bench press. My God, man. Like, Jesus. Sorry.

• 49:40Speaker 05

  An embarrassment.

• 49:41Robert Evans?

  No, but it's fine. That's a fun tangent. Yeah. So Father Coughlin quits his radio show and then he's like, oh, my friend's dying wish was that I would be racist on the radio one last time. So he goes back, but Coughlin can't go back to the simple life of a radio priest who made antisemitic propaganda anymore. He's got the politics bug now and he can't quit. So he starts complaining on the air that the Vatican has been infiltrated by communist agents. Now, here's the thing. I'm not an expert on Catholicism, but my understanding of the way it works is that if you are a Catholic priest, the Pope is your boss. And like any employment situation, you're not supposed to just like get out in front of the media and say, my boss is being manipulated by communists secretly.

• 50:24Robert Evans?

  Your boss might get pissed at you because you're not supposed to be talking shit like that. You're a subordinate to the, to the Pope, right? And to these other, anyway, Father Coughlin is getting out of pocket and he's, he's pissing off the rest of the Catholic hierarchy. And he is accountable to that hierarchy. He's not a free agent. No Catholic priest is. They want to continue being a Catholic priest. It's kind of an important fact about how Catholicism works. So this sparks a chain of events that leads to Father Coughlin having his operating permit revoked and being taken off the air for another few months. And when he's taken off the air for the second time, Elizabeth Dilling feels his loss keenly. She was convinced that her fave had only suffered so because communist agents had infiltrated the United States.

• 51:09Robert Evans?

  She formed the Patriotic Research Bureau, an organization dedicated to clearing Father Coughlin's name. She was its only member and put out a monthly bulletin to her mailing list. As always, she solicited donation. No, I mean, she has a lot of readers. She's the only like member of this. Yeah. And she solicits donations because she's got all these, like anyone who's ever been interested in her shit, she has their address and she'll just mail them shit. And if they want to send her money, they'll send money back. And that's kind of what keeps her going. It's a proto Patreon type thing, right?

• 51:39Speaker 01

  I was gonna say a little Patreon.

• 51:41Robert Evans?

  Exactly. Dilling herself was very open about the small donations that kept her in business. And when you read her description of the things that fans sent her, it does sound weirdly like a modern, like right wing crowdfunding kind of deal. Quote, "One woman who's in," and this is Liz talking, "one woman whose income was $40 a month and he was going blind, sold $100 bond for $77 and sent 75 to Dilling. An elderly man who worked as a cement mixer sent her $100 and left everything he owned to Dilling in his will." Right? This is kind of how she puts out what people are, right? Because she, this is partly advertising, exactly what you're saying. Sorry. Yeah.

• 52:18Speaker 01

  No, no, sorry. I interjected too soon.

• 52:21Robert Evans?

  This is shameful. The reason she's saying it this way is that like, so if you're sick and going blind and only have a little bit of money, you should send it to me because, you know, you care about this country, right? Give me everything you've got, you know? It is very much like that give till it hurts evangelical impulse.

• 52:36Speaker 01

  Yeah. Cleanse your soul by giving me all your money.

• 52:40Robert Evans?

  That's right. That's right. So yeah, she urged her Catholic followers. One of the other things I find funny. So she's not just soliciting for donations in a really modern crowdfunding way. She's attempting to like weaponize and turn her audience into a tool for her activism in a very modern way. She starts urging her readers who are Catholics to send letters to the Vatican, to flood the Vatican with letters. And a number of them do, because she prints a form letter with like her monthly issue of the bulletin that they can just fill out and send to the Vatican. This form letter read, quote, "Holy Father, we plead for our Father Coughlin. Have him continue his radio broadcasts in the same heartfelt way, not in censored platitudes which defeat the dignity God bestowed on man, but as an alter Christus,

• 53:23Robert Evans?

  fearless and outspoken, going about doing his father's business, spreading the doctrine of the mystical body, a brotherhood of man with a fatherhood in God, to confute the atheistic communism and other godlessisms, to continue to espouse the cause of the poor, for the rich have ample means. Holy Father, many of us were tricked by artful propaganda, but now we humbly ask your holiness to give us back our Father Coughlin, as he should be, free and unrestrained in preaching the doctrine of Christ to the poor and to all who will listen." So that's the form letter she puts together for these people. And today, I don't think the Vatican would respond to a handful of form letters being sent from some American pranks. But this was the late 30s. The idea that American Catholics could write letters and have them reliably reach the Vatican in just a couple of weeks, that's a pretty

• 54:07Robert Evans?

  new idea. In the 1930s, random people have not been able to just send a letter to the Vatican for a very long time. That's a really new concept. And the church has zero experience dealing with a fan write-in campaign. No one really has experience with fan write-in campaigns. And that's what this amounted to. If you want to know like why Star Trek is a thing, it's because they organized after Star Trek got canceled, the original series, one of the first fan write-in campaigns. And like, no one had been, I mean, technically, there had been some things like that before, but it hadn't really ever happened before. And so for the first time, which a studio suit see like fans sending in letters about a show, like, wait a second, is there money in this? You know? Right. Like, it's a similar thing here, where like, the Vatican-

• 54:51Robert Evans?

  Vatican is like, whoa, this must really mean a lot of people are pissed off at what we did. If four or five letters have showed up in the Vatican. Four or five letters show up. I don't know how many show up exactly. It must represent everybody. Any amount, right, seems like a lot back then because the church has no experience dealing with this sort of shit. So the Pope folds, or at least someone in the Vatican folds. And by December of 1937, it was okayed for Father Coughlin to take to the airwaves again in January of 1938. Everyone was thrilled when he returned and in short order, he forms a fascist club called the Christian Front, which kind of sounds like a militia in that it described itself like Father Coughlin described it as a literal crusade against anti-Christian elements in American culture. Now. Is it not a militia? Did somebody borrow that?

• 55:36Robert Evans?

  It kind of was. Yeah. I think, okay. It, he was, he was on the edge of trying to frame it as a militia, sure. But he doesn't, he has to kind of pull back on this because not long after he introduces the Christian Front in 1938, Kristallnacht happens, like the Nazis do Kristallnacht in Germany and there's mobs breaking, burning synagogues, breaking Jewish buildings, tearing, murdering people in the street, all sorts of horrific shit. And the world's conscience is shocked. This is widely reported on and people are horrified. In part because folks like Elizabeth Dilling had been saying, there's no racism in Nazi Germany. They're just having to defend themselves periodically against the violence of the Jews, but it's entirely defensive. And this Kristallnacht makes it impossible to continue that lie, right?

• 56:22Robert Evans?

  Afterwards, the owner of Coughlin's main station demanded to take an early look at the script for his next broadcast, like the day after Kristallnacht, this guy's like, we, we need to look at what he's gonna put out before we let that hit the air. Probably smart. And sure enough, he finds the script filled with angry and insane allegations against the Jewish people and he demanded changes. Father Coughlin did alter the script, but in his final broadcast, he still claimed that Kristallnacht hadn't been anyone's fault, really. Or at least it hadn't been any Christian's fault. And so it wasn't something any Americans should concern themselves over. His attitude was more like, this was just a natural reaction and part of, because of all the bad things the Jews have done. But you know, to whatever you could blame, maybe the government of Germany for, it has nothing to do with Christianity.

• 57:06Robert Evans?

  And it's nothing Americans should be concerned by, and you shouldn't feel bad for these Jews, really. You know, that's kind of his attitude. He's a massive piece of shit. He's one of the worst people who ever lived. Now, this makes a lot of people very angry, but not Liz Dilling. She fucking loves Father Coffin. However, she soon had to devote her time to less enjoyable things. The 1940 elections were coming up, and once again, Dilling intended to do her part to replace FDR with a proper nationalists. The fact that another world war was obviously coming made the concern even more immediate. Elizabeth couldn't bear to see the United States oppose Nazi Germany. In 1938, she actually visited Germany, attending the Nuremberg Rally that year and loving it. She goes to a fucking Nuremberg Rally.

• 57:52Robert Evans?

  Liz Dilling. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. She could not be just the Nazi-est Nazi, whoever Nazi this lady.

• 58:01Speaker 05

  Jesus.

• 58:01Robert Evans?

  It's very funny. One of my favorite things, because Liz Dilling, her writing is still somewhat popular among the far right today. In fact, in like 2011 or so, fucking Glenn Beck quoted her on his show and tried to get people to read. I think it was the Red Network. So she periodically comes back up. But you can find her writing on like outright neo-Nazi websites. And I've read some articles from actual modern Nazis who will criticize her by being like, she didn't actually know anything about National Socialist ideology, like she was not knowledgeable about the tenets of National Socialism. And they're right about this. Like Liz, I know more about Nazism than Liz Dilling ever did, right?

• 58:40Robert Evans?

  Like she is not well-read about what the Nazis believe, because all that matters to her is that they hate the Jews and the communists, right? Like, that's what really matters about Nazism, you know?

• 58:53Robert Evans?

  So Liz was never a Nazi in the sense that she actually understood a lot of what Hitler wanted, but she was a Nazi in the more important sense that she understood all that Hitler really needed her to understand about him, which is, you know, these people hate Jews and communists, right? You know, that that's it. After World War II started in 1939, agents of the German state and the US tried to use Liz as a voice, and she was invited to speak at the German-American Bund gatherings that year while she extowed the virtues of the Germany that she had briefly seen. As the next presidential election wound closer, Liz again readied herself for feverish activity. Unfortunately, there were again no Republicans who met with her approval. Thomas Dewey had prosecuted the leader of the German-American Bund, and Robert A. Taft

• 59:36Robert Evans?

  had worked for the AFL as a lawyer. Arthur Vandenberg, a conservative Michigan senator Dilling otherwise liked, backed the hated New Deal. Bereft of hope, Elizabeth penned an essay about her breathless desire for a presidential "man on a white horse." This is like one of the very first, and you'll see bits of this today, like, like, American conservatives yearning for like an American Pinochet or an American Caesar. Elizabeth's the first person to really write this out in a very direct way where she says, "God, all we need is our own sexy charismatic fascist. If only we had a Hitler." That's really, she's the first right-winger in America to write an "if only we had a Hitler" piece. And I'm going to quote from Dye's thesis here. "She proclaimed in her essay that there

• 1:00:19Robert Evans?

  had to be a better candidate out there who could defeat Roosevelt. Elizabeth encouraged the Democratic nominee to step forward and let it be known that he could end communism single-handedly. The public enjoyed her so much that they felt encouraged to take up arms and look for a better presidential candidate. Eventually, Elizabeth came to terms, as she did in the 1936 election, that she must support the candidate who opposed Roosevelt. Without any type of enthusiasm, Dilling supported Wendell L. Wilkie for president." And this doesn't work, you know, the situation is about as dire as it can be for Liz, you know, democracy's hanging in the balance. And so Elizabeth knows what she has to do, the only thing that could possibly defeat FDR's political machine and save the United

• 1:01:01Robert Evans?

  States. She has to write a book so racist she can only publish it under a pseudonym. It's the only way to win. It's the only way to save America. Something so racist I can't put it out under my own name.

• 1:01:14Robert Evans?

  I gotta hunker down and write a book so racist that in 1940, I don't feel safe putting my name as a white woman on it.

• 1:01:22Speaker 01

  Beautiful. Perfect. No notes. Also, the self hatred in that as well of, uh, people will take it more seriously under some other name, probably. I'm assuming she chose a man's name.

• 1:01:31Robert Evans?

  Wow. Yes. Yes.

• 1:01:33Speaker 01

  Did I choose? Yeah. Okay. I'm assuming correctly.

• 1:01:35Robert Evans?

  Yeah. So, "The Octopus" was billed as an expose of the shadowy network of influence behind the New Deal and Roosevelt. Now, when you hear "octopus" in the title of something written by an anti Semite, anyone who knows their Nazi political cartoons thinks of this image. Sophie's gonna put it on screen right now. There's a few versions of this political cartoon, but they're, these are all political cartoons from Nazi Germany that feature usually like a globe and then an octopus that's like reaching its tentacles out over the world. And there's like a Star of David on the octopus's head or over the octopus. And the octopus like has a face. It's like a caricature of a Jewish man sometimes. There's a few variants of this you'll see, right? But it's like octopus, an octopus meant

• 1:02:19Robert Evans?

  to sort of represent the, uh, the extensive Jewish conspiracy, right?

• 1:02:24Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:02:25Robert Evans?

  So, Dilling's book, "The Octopus," was in fact so racist that the name, she, the fake name she picked, she, she can't just go with even a normal fake name. She has to make it the fake name of a religious leader so that maybe people won't find it as racist. So her pseudonym is the Reverend Frank Woodruff Johnson.

• 1:02:41Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 1:02:42Robert Evans?

  Yeah. That'll make people ignore the racism.

• 1:02:46Speaker 01

  That'll do it.

• 1:02:47Robert Evans?

  Reverend Frank Woodruff Johnson.

• 1:02:48Speaker 01

  Sure.

• 1:02:49Robert Evans?

  Um, as Dye explains, quote, "When people wrote to Dilling with questions about the Jewish faith, she often referred them to Johnson's fine book. The Jews can never prove that I'm anti Semitic," she said. "I'm too clever for them." I think, I think, I think I might be able to prove you're anti Semitic. That sentence, for example, does a good job.

• 1:03:07Speaker 01

  Alone, does it?

• 1:03:08Robert Evans?

  Yeah. Yeah. That really, that's really all I gotta do. Yeah. That's the Bechtel test for anti Semitism right there. The Bechtel, uh, test. Yeah. Uh, Dilling arranged for Hudson, a Jew baiting pamphleteer in Omaha, Nebraska, to distribute her book. For an idea of how bad the book was, I'm just gonna read you one brief snippet from the text. "Did Americans get a truthful impression from the press about the communist socialist anarchist church burning Spanish government strongly favored by Jewry?"

• 1:03:36Robert Evans?

  This is her part of her talking about like during the Spanish Civil War, how like the like anarchists and kind of left wing elements would like light Catholic churches on fire because in part they were also opposing the Catholic Church, which was backing the Francoist regime. And she's divorcing all of that from its historical context and just saying, "The Jews did it!" The Jews did it! "The Jews burnt all the churches!" Yeah.

• 1:03:58Robert Evans?

  And also just that like the church burning is favored by Jewry. We took a poll and they all love it. In a shock turn of events, The Octopus was not a bestseller and did not impact the election in any way. The United States entered World War II, no matter how much Father Coughlin and Liz Dilling shouted that it shouldn't. Liz was also an active member of the America First Committee and helped to found the Mothers Movement, which was a protest campaign that was like a last minute attempt to try to shame America into not entering the war against the Nazis. And here's how Lillian Greenwald describes the Mothers Movement, that that this is like kind of her last big hurrah at trying to create a political movement. Here's how Lillian Greenwald describes the protests that they took part in in 1941. This was for an article on fascism in

• 1:04:43Robert Evans?

  America. "Under Miss Dilling's guidance, the mothers promptly went on a rampage. While Congress was considering matters of grave importance to our national destiny, they were exploiting all the techniques of mass pressure with a few womanly frills of their own. They deluged congressmen with pleas, threats, imprecations, and cajolery by way of letters, telegrams, petitions, and personal visits. Alternatively, as it suited their purpose, they dabbed genteely at their eyes with delicate white handkerchiefs or howled lustily in burly heartbreak. In August of 1940, more than 100 Detroit and Cleveland mothers descended on Washington. Where in a Roman holiday spirit, they hanged Senator Claude Pepper in effigy. Later, swathed in funeral garments, they established a death watch over the Senate while it debated the conscription bill. The mothers

• 1:05:25Robert Evans?

  were excluded from the Senate gallery but allowed to use the Senate reception hall. Their major coup was the Mothers Crusade against 1776, a demonstration which sought to prevent the passage of the Lynn Lee's Bill in February to March 1941. Marshaled by Miss Dilling, with Charles B. Hudson, editor of the rabid anti-Semitic dope sheet, "America in Danger", stage managing behind the scenes, about 500 embattled mothers stormed the halls of Congress."

• 1:05:50Speaker 01

  Wow.

• 1:05:50Robert Evans?

  So, yeah.

• 1:05:52Speaker 01

  That's a lot of histrionics and theatrical displays there.

• 1:05:56Robert Evans?

  It's really close. Yeah.

• 1:05:58Speaker 01

  Oh.

• 1:05:59Robert Evans?

  And she's just trying to open, no one, no one can critique a mother for being concerned about their sons dying, you know, and using that to like, if you're not concerned about people dying, you're concerned about people stopping Hitler. That's what this is about.

• 1:06:10Speaker 01

  And you, you don't actually care about their sons fighting in a war at all. You just don't want

• 1:06:17Robert Evans?

  Yeah.

• 1:06:18Speaker 01

  And there's To intervene.

• 1:06:19Robert Evans?

  There's a beautiful moment. You can tell how much this pisses people off. Senator Carter Glass, who's like a southern senator and is like this very much like a southern hospitality politest kind of, you're never supposed to be like rude, especially to women in public. He gets, he gets asked about these protests and he's like, I believe it would be pertinent to inquire whether they are mothers.

• 1:06:40Robert Evans?

  I don't believe these are moms.

• 1:06:44Robert Evans?

  Let's check it out.

• 1:06:45Speaker 01

  Great quote.

• 1:06:47Robert Evans?

  Once the US entered World War II, Dilling continued to speak out against it, decrying rationing and blaming the Jews for everything. She was ultimately charged under the Smith Act for sedition in, in July of 1942.

• 1:06:58Speaker 01

  Oh.

• 1:06:59Robert Evans?

  This was part of the unfortunately short-lived Brown Scare, in which the federal government briefly turned its efforts to finding and prosecuting fascist sympathizers. The resulting trial, US v. Winrod, included 26 defendants and Dilling lost top billing to another fascist we've discussed on this show. She denied trying to incite a mutiny in the armed forces by distributing fascist propaganda. And in 1944, the case expanded to charging the defendants for their involvement in a worldwide Nazi movement. The charges were dismissed in 1946 because the evidence that they'd actually violated US law was pretty weak. Unfortunately, the long-term effect of the Brown Scare was, per Christine Erickson, to give a government stamp of approval for targeting unpopular dissidents who agreed,

• 1:07:41Robert Evans?

  disagreed with the political status quo, thereby helping to set the stage for McCarthy witch hunt. And that they did, right? The Brown Scare doesn't amount to much. The Red Scare uses the Brown Scare, some of the, the precedent had set to go after the opposite kind of people. Elizabeth Dilling's work was cited during the Red Scare by Joseph McCarthy repeatedly. And in the post-war period, she predictably became a vociferous Holocaust denier. Not super shocking, right?

• 1:08:09Speaker 01

  Not shocking at all.

• 1:08:10Robert Evans?

  Yeah. Good stuff.

• 1:08:13Speaker 01

  Oh, God, everything's so depressing.

• 1:08:15Robert Evans?

  It's, it's

• 1:08:15Speaker 01

  Again, how little things change, all of this.

• 1:08:18Robert Evans?

  Little things change.

• 1:08:18Speaker 01

  Predictable.

• 1:08:19Speaker 05

  Everything's dumb.

• 1:08:20Speaker 01

  I've heard that before.

• 1:08:22Robert Evans?

  Yeah.

• 1:08:22Speaker 01

  Um, Holocaust denier, okay.

• 1:08:25Robert Evans?

  Holocaust denier, yeah, she gets in, she gets into that growth industry.

• 1:08:29Speaker 01

  I certainly understand, uh, at this point in time, how, actually, I don't really understand how people can be Holocaust deniers. I don't, but I understand that they are at this

• 1:08:39Robert Evans?

  It's convenient.

• 1:08:40Speaker 01

  However.

• 1:08:40Robert Evans?

  It's convenient.

• 1:08:41Speaker 01

  Immediately after the Holocaust, how does Holocaust denial land with people? Not good?

• 1:08:48Robert Evans?

  Convenient.

• 1:08:49Speaker 01

  Convenient.

• 1:08:49Robert Evans?

  It's easy. Yeah, it's convenient. It's easy. Um, yeah, most of her life is not that interesting after this point. She does write a book even more racist than The Octopus, which you can still find in Nazi bookstores and Telegram channels to this day.

• 1:09:03Speaker 01

  Is it called Even More Racist Than The Octopus?

• 1:09:05Robert Evans?

  Yeah, even more racist than The Octopus. Racist and even more racist. They're two books. Uh, one of her favorite conspiracy theories later in life is that Eisenhower, Dwight Eisenhower, was a secret Jew. He's, he's hiding it.

• 1:09:18Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 1:09:19Robert Evans?

  He's keeping it hidden.

• 1:09:20Speaker 01

  Oh, the secret Jew thing. Okay.

• 1:09:23Robert Evans?

  Yeah. She also include JFK's new frontier of being the Jew frontier. Uh, so, you know, great, real creative at the end of her life.

• 1:09:33Speaker 01

  She seriously would kill on, uh, Twitter these days.

• 1:09:37Robert Evans?

  Yeah. By the end of her days, Liz couldn't even support Barry Goldwater because his running mate had been a prosecutor at Nuremberg. She's too much of a fascist for Barry Goldwater.

• 1:09:47Speaker 01

  Wow.

• 1:09:48Speaker 05

  You know what's cool, though?

• 1:09:50Speaker 01

  Hateful person.

• 1:09:51Speaker 05

  Do you guys know what's really cool, though?

• 1:09:53Speaker 01

  She's dead.

• 1:09:55Robert Evans?

  She is dead. She dies April 30th, 1966, in Lincoln, Nebraska. Yep.

• 1:10:01Speaker 05

  Hope it hurt.

• 1:10:02Robert Evans?

  Yeah, fingers crossed.

• 1:10:05Speaker 01

  Jeez.

• 1:10:06Robert Evans?

  Yep.

• 1:10:07Speaker 01

  Liz, I just flipped my pencil.

• 1:10:09Speaker 05

  I know.

• 1:10:09Robert Evans?

  Yeah.

• 1:10:10Speaker 05

  I saw Katie.

• 1:10:11Speaker 01

  Frustration.

• 1:10:11Speaker 05

  Yeah, I saw Katie getting angrier and angrier.

• 1:10:15Robert Evans?

  Yeah. It's frustrating.

• 1:10:16Speaker 01

  But she is dead, so there is that. But it does feel like her spirit lives on in far too many people.

• 1:10:23Robert Evans?

  Yep.

• 1:10:23Speaker 01

  And it is depressing always.

• 1:10:27Speaker 05

  Yep.

• 1:10:27Speaker 01

  To see how little has changed. The attacks, the phrasing of the attacks, the lies, yeah.

• 1:10:37Robert Evans?

  Yep. Yeah, it's cool. I love it. Well, Katie, where can people find you online?

• 1:10:42Speaker 01

  Thank you for asking. You can find me over at Some More News and even more news. We do a few shows a week with Cody Johnston. We've got a Patreon.

• 1:10:54Speaker 05

  Hey, I love that guy.

• 1:10:55Speaker 01

  We do live streams sometimes now, getting the hang of it.

• 1:10:59Robert Evans?

  Yeah.

• 1:11:00Speaker 01

  It's fun. It's fun. It's new. It's different. I don't know how people do it every day.

• 1:11:04Robert Evans?

  Yeah.

• 1:11:05Speaker 01

  But it feels like a party, so check us out. Look at our socials and you'll see when we're live streaming and it's fun.

• 1:11:11Robert Evans?

  Yep.

• 1:11:11Speaker 01

  Yay.

• 1:11:12Robert Evans?

  We'll check that out and yeah, check out this podcast next week when we'll have someone else for you. You know, hopefully who isn't this person. Definitely who isn't this person, but I don't know who it'll be. I can't read the future.

• 1:11:23Speaker 01

  I don't know. I would come back.

• 1:11:25Robert Evans?

  Yeah. What is this, my podcast? Oh, wait, yeah, shit. All right, well, we're done, anyone. Go away.

• 1:11:32Speaker 01

  Bye.

• 1:11:35Speaker 05

  Behind the Bastards is a production of Cool Zone Media. For more from Cool Zone Media, visit our website, coolzonemedia.com, or check us out on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Full video episodes of Behind the Bastards are now streaming on Netflix, dropping every Tuesday and Thursday. Hit Remind Me on Netflix so you don't miss an episode. For clips and our older episode catalog, continue to subscribe to our YouTube channel, youtube.com/AtBehindTheBastards. We love about 40% of you, statistically speaking.

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