The Shocking Reality of the Treatment of Christians in the Holy Land by the US-Funded Israeli Government

How does the US-funded Israeli government treat Christians in the Holy Land? We asked some. Listen carefully to their accounts. This will shock you. Paid partnerships with: SimpliSafe: Claim 50% off any new system by visiting https://simplisafe.com/TUCKER Charity Mobile: A pro-life company serving pro-life customers and supporting pro-life causes for 30 years. Use promo code TUCKER to get a free phone with free activation, free shipping, and a free gift with every new line of service at https://charitymobile.com/Tucker TCN: Watch 'Replacing Europe: Following the World's Deadliest Migration Route,' dropping January 20 only on https://TuckerCarlson.com Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

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• 0:31Tucker Carlson?

  Good evening. From where I'm standing right now, I can see all around me, in a ring, seven Christian churches. We're not going to pan to see them. You can see one behind me, but they're all on the ridges of this valley around me. We are about 100 yards from the River Jordan and about 150 yards from the spot where Jesus, the Christian Savior, God on earth, was baptized by John the Baptist, famously the beginning of his ministry and the beginning, really, of the gospel. John the Baptist lived famously in the wilderness, eating locusts and honey. That was right here. We are in the Holy Land, but on the political map, we're in an overwhelmingly Muslim country,

• 1:15Tucker Carlson?

  a monarchy called Jordan. And that's significant, particularly now, because the question of how Christians are treated in the Holy Land is a political question. And it is because much of what happens in this region is funded by the United States, by its taxpayers, military action, but also the cultural and religious life of the region is funded, to a great extent, by American Christian churches. And so, the question that we've asked for some time now is what's the outcome? How are Christians in the Holy Land doing? Are they thriving? Or are they suffering? And the truth has become pretty obvious over the past couple of years,

• 1:59Tucker Carlson?

  which is, in Israel, they are not thriving. Their numbers are not growing. They are shrinking. And there's a huge debate about why, but the bottom line is there are fewer Christians now, far fewer, in absolute numbers and particularly as percentage of population than there were when the state was founded in 1948.

• 2:18Tucker Carlson?

  And there's a lot of evidence in the last couple of years, particularly since the Gaza War started, and the whole tone of the conversation in this area has changed quite a bit, and the rise of extremism, very noticeable, that those numbers have gotten even smaller. And in Jerusalem, if you follow this at all on the internet, you see video clip after video clip of Christian clergy being spit at by religious extremists. Not Muslim religious extremists, but Jewish religious extremists. And that's something most Americans didn't know happened, didn't think could happen, particularly since the United States, the most important Christian country in the world, is funding this. And anyone who's raised this question, this show has done that,

• 3:03Tucker Carlson?

  has been dismissed out of hand as a liar, or an anti-Semite, or, best of all, a secret jihadi, a secret Muslim. You must be a Muslim. And so we thought it'd be worth coming here to find out what the truth is, or at least getting closer to the truth. The truth being pretty elusive usually in political terms, but why not go ahead and talk to people? Why not go ahead and talk to Christians? And find out their side of the story? Why aren't Christian churches doing this? Why aren't American Christian leaders like Mike Huckabee? Or Ted Cruz? People who invoke the Christian Bible to justify what they're doing? Why haven't they done this? We can only guess, but they haven't. They have funded the other side. So we thought, let's talk to them. So we are about to play interviews that we just did about five minutes ago

• 3:47Tucker Carlson?

  with two Christians from this area. One was born in Israel, one was born in Jordan. The one born in Israel was born, in fact, in Jesus's hometown of Nazareth. His father was literally a carpenter, which is kind of hilarious. He is now the Anglican Archbishop of Jerusalem, which is to say he's the representative of the Anglican Church, the global Anglican Church, in Jerusalem.

• 4:12Tucker Carlson?

  Whatever you think of the Anglican Church, it's not a small thing, and this is a very well-informed person. And you can judge for yourself whether he's telling the truth or not. Our view is, he absolutely is telling the truth. And the story that he's going to tell you in just a minute is pretty shocking, if you're a Western Christian. Because it's a story of Christians being oppressed in Jerusalem by a government that American Christians pay for. And the second person we're going to speak to is a businessman, runs a bank here in Jordan, from a very prominent Christian family. And if you're an American, you may be surprised to learn that in Jordan, a country that's probably 97% Muslim, Christians, who've been here for, of course, 2,000 years, are disproportionately represented at the higher end of the economy,

• 4:57Tucker Carlson?

  which is to say there's a large number of Christian families who are hugely successful in Jordan, and have been for a long time, since the creation of the state, about 100 years ago. That's not something you're going to see on CNN. How would Christians thrive in a Muslim country? And we're not experts on this, of course, being not that well-versed in Islam, but we thought it'd be worth talking to a sincere Christian whose family's been here for 2,000 years, and ask, "How did that happen? And what does it tell us about our understanding of what's actually happening in the Holy Land, in Jordan, the West Bank, and Israel?" Which, again, is right there.

• 5:42Tucker Carlson?

  We are 25 miles from Jerusalem. And so with that, keep an open mind, listen carefully to what sincere Christians in this area have to say about what's happening here, and you may find a story that shocks you. Archbishop, thank you. You live in Jerusalem, but we're on the other side. We're about 100 yards from Israel, across the West Bank, across the Jordan. How are Christians doing in the Holy Land?

• 6:13Speaker 02

  You know, Christians in the Holy Land, of course, have been here for 2,000 years.

• 6:16Tucker Carlson?

  Yes.

• 6:17Speaker 02

  And over the history, the Christian community has thrived in phases, you know, like declined in others, but I think now we are on the declining end of our Christian presence in the Holy Land. In general, we still living our faith, witnessing to our communities, and also trying to kind of maintain our presence, and I'm sorry to say that because maintaining, because maintenance is not on the good side of things.

• 6:47Tucker Carlson?

  No, it's not growth.

• 6:48Speaker 02

  It's not growth, it's not thriving, it's not accomplishing and achieving. We are custodians of the Christian faith, and Jerusalem is the capital of our faith. It's our spiritual capital as Christians. But to see the declining numbers of Christians over the decades, and especially since like 48 and 67, we have seen like challenging phases of Christians facing realities that we were not used to before.

• 7:21Tucker Carlson?

  So, 1948 was the year that the political state of Israel was created.

• 7:26Speaker 02

  That's correct.

• 7:27Tucker Carlson?

  And a huge percentage of the Arab population was expelled that year. 1967, the Six-Day War increased the territory of the state, and the majority is now called occupied territory.

• 7:42Tucker Carlson?

  Were there big declines after both of those in the Christian population?

• 7:46Speaker 02

  Absolutely, so you can think about, you know, the Christian population dwindled to half in 48 because many people had to leave what is my homeland, you know, like where I grew in Nazareth.

• 7:59Tucker Carlson?

  Yes.

• 7:59Speaker 02

  In Galilee. Half of the Palestinian population had to be expelled to other places. And who became refugees? So when we speak about Palestinian refugees today, they are all coming or came from what is proper Israel today.

• 8:16Tucker Carlson?

  What I think most Americans don't understand is that some large number of those refugees who were expelled by force from their land were Christian.

• 8:24Speaker 02

  Yeah, there are many Christians, absolutely. Let me tell you something. Our congregation in Beirut, All Saints, is 90% they come from Haifa, Akko, Nazareth, and other places around Galilee. 90% of, imagine, of the Anglican community in Beirut are Palestinian Christians who come from Galilee.

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• 11:54Tucker Carlson?

  So in the United States, as you may or may not know, Palestinian is a synonym, is the same word for Islamic terrorist. When people in the American media say Palestinian, it means someone who's an Islamist, basically. But you're saying that a lot of those Palestinians, refugees, were Christians, Anglicans even?

• 12:15Speaker 02

  Absolutely. I think there are many places in the world where people can use words that mean something really horrific.

• 12:22Tucker Carlson?

  Yes.

• 12:23Speaker 02

  But I think that's demonizing. For me, that's demonizing.

• 12:26Tucker Carlson?

  Well, it sounds also untrue.

• 12:28Speaker 02

  Absolutely. Because I think when you speak about Palestinians, I'm Palestinian.

• 12:33Tucker Carlson?

  Yeah.

• 12:34Speaker 02

  And I'm an Archbishop. Do I look terrorist to you?

• 12:37Tucker Carlson?

  No. You look like an Anglican, actually.

• 12:41Speaker 02

  Yeah, so I think, you know, like this, this is, again, this is like a kind of killing the image of the Palestinian people by claiming that they are terrorists, or they are uncivilized, or they are savages, or... You know, I think this is exactly like just pushing an agenda where they just want to frame you, so that Palestinians lose sympathy in the world. That's basically what it is.

• 13:04Tucker Carlson?

  What's striking to me is that that narrative, as you said, that image, is being pushed not just by Jewish supporters of Israel, but in the United States, heavily by Christian supporters of Israel. Christian supporters of Israel in the US are dismissing their brother Christians in this region as terrorists.

• 13:25Speaker 02

  I totally agree. There are lots of agendas. And especially like Christian, many Christians around the world, you know, who think that they are doing favor to the Jewish people.

• 13:36Tucker Carlson?

  Yes.

• 13:37Speaker 02

  And I have like really kind of two full answer to that. The first one is about Jews themselves. You know, as we know, like, you know, there are many Jewish people, people of faith, who see in these groups also as people who really don't work for their interest. You know, we know what dispensation, dispensation, let me just get that one.

• 14:00Tucker Carlson?

  Dispensationalism, maybe?

• 14:02Speaker 02

  We know what dispensationalism is about. I know that, you know, politicians around the world, and especially like the colonial thinking of bringing the Jewish people to the Holy Land or to the land of Israel, is something that can really kind of fit both agendas. But actually, and we have heard this time and time again from many Jewish people, who say that this agenda, eventually, you know, for all the Jewish people coming to their homelands, you know, becomes again a kind like a trap, because they're all supposed to convert to Christianity or die.

• 14:40Tucker Carlson?

  Right.

• 14:41Speaker 02

  So for them, this is, this is an offense, you know, in that thinking, of Zionist Christian thinking, and that some narratives would be damaging even to Jewish people and Jewish faith. Now, for us as Christians, of course... It's damaging because, think about like, um, let me, let me tell you a story, a real story. I once was in a, in a, in a kind of a community visiting England. Um, and I was speaking about, you know, like how some Christians who have Zionist approach to uh, the whole politics and agendas, you know, can be damaging to us as Christians in the homeland. And they say, how come?

• 15:22Speaker 02

  I said, you know, because this agenda of money coming from the West. Uh, sometimes, you know, like they uh, enable people, settlers, you know, to confiscate my own land. Like, we have lots of examples in Bethlehem, where money that comes from around the world is invested in building settlements on Christian land. You know what the answer was? They told me sometimes we need to make a sacrifice for a better good, a greater good. Can you imagine that answer?

• 15:54Tucker Carlson?

  Christians told you this?

• 15:55Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, Christian, you know, who, somebody told me this and I, I had a youth group with me. I'm telling you, they were in tears, they were in tears. How can a Christian brother or sister around the world, uh, take me as kind of a means? No matter what happens to me? How can, how can I really, uh, reconcile myself with this? So that, this is, so from this story, I'm telling you that, you know, these views sometimes are damaging because, you know, they are exclusive. I'm not, I'm not judging, you know, like Christian Zionists for their belief. They can believe what they want to believe.

• 16:36Speaker 02

  But when it comes to exclusion, uh, exclusion, excluding Palestinians, whether they are Christian or Muslim.

• 16:43Tucker Carlson?

  Right.

• 16:44Speaker 02

  You know, I think this is where my problem lies in their ideology, if you know what I mean.

• 16:48Tucker Carlson?

  It doesn't sound, I mean, I, I think we can say that Christianity does not support violence.

• 16:55Speaker 02

  Of course not.

• 16:56Tucker Carlson?

  Right.

• 16:57Speaker 02

  Of course, and we condemn violence, whatever.

• 16:59Tucker Carlson?

  Of course.

• 16:59Speaker 02

  Whatever it is.

• 17:00Tucker Carlson?

  And I think Jesus is pretty clear on that.

• 17:02Speaker 02

  Absolutely.

• 17:02Tucker Carlson?

  Could not be clearer, so for a Christian to say, I support. Violence against other Christians because that's what Jesus wants. Does that strike you as valid? How can that be?

• 17:15Speaker 02

  Indeed, and this is why we always said that Christianity is about bringing people together. It's about forgiveness, reconciliation, peace building. These are the values, the core values of Christianity. And if we fail as Christians to do that, to bring people together, we are God's people, we are God's children, whoever we may be. Yes, we have our beliefs, where we stand, but we as Christians, we know that, and we have been saying this all along. For 2,000 years, Christians have been witnessing to this truth from the beginning. And that's why we continue to exist here. Despite the long history,

• 17:57Speaker 02

  our holy sites are our anchor here in the Holy Land.

• 18:01Tucker Carlson?

  So you are a Christian from Nazareth?

• 18:04Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 18:05Tucker Carlson?

  Jesus's hometown?

• 18:06Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 18:07Tucker Carlson?

  What did your father do?

• 18:09Speaker 02

  No, my dad was a carpenter.

• 18:12Tucker Carlson?

  I knew that, I just wanted to hear you say it, because it's so funny.

• 18:15Speaker 02

  But we are fishermen, so if you ask me what you do for a hobby, fishing would be my...

• 18:22Tucker Carlson?

  Amazing. No, it's just, I mean, you are a Christian from Nazareth in Galilee. Amazing.

• 18:30Tucker Carlson?

  Compare Nazareth, its Christian population to your childhood to now. Are there more Christians in Nazareth now, or fewer?

• 18:39Speaker 02

  No, if there aren't fewer, let me say like 50 years ago, I think then they have not grown.

• 18:48Tucker Carlson?

  Yes.

• 18:49Speaker 02

  Especially recently, like in the last maybe two decades, we have seen like an exodus of Christians even from Nazareth, and Galilee in general, due to many reasons. And we are talking now what is proper Israel today. Now, in the West Bank is a different story because of the occupation, there is another narrative there. But inside Israel, today there are so many pressures, not only on Christians, Christians or even some Jewish people who are also leaving the country for different reasons.

• 19:20Tucker Carlson?

  Yes, I see.

• 19:22Tucker Carlson?

  How much aid, how much money do Christians around the world send to Christians living in Nazareth?

• 19:30Speaker 02

  Very minimal.

• 19:31Tucker Carlson?

  Very minimal?

• 19:32Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 19:34Tucker Carlson?

  How, really?

• 19:35Speaker 02

  You know, we, the Anglican Church, of course, we have partners around the world.

• 19:40Tucker Carlson?

  Yes.

• 19:40Speaker 02

  And they're in, especially like in the States, we have the American Friends of the Diocese of Jerusalem Anglican, and they're doing fantastic support. But if you kind of compare the amount of money that comes to the other side, we are talking about a drop in the ocean.

• 20:00Tucker Carlson?

  Really?

• 20:00Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 20:01Tucker Carlson?

  So, Christian churches in the United States send more money to, say, Jewish settlements in the West Bank than they do to Christians in Jesus's hometown of Nazareth?

• 20:11Speaker 02

  That's not the secret. That's not the secret, everybody knows that. Yeah.

• 20:18Tucker Carlson?

  What about Bethlehem?

• 20:20Speaker 02

  Now Bethlehem is a different challenge there. I don't know if you have visited Bethlehem before, but you would see that the city is surrounded by the wall, the separation wall that separates, you know, East Jerusalem, Jerusalem from Bethlehem. And, you know, the occupation and the kind of the wall that separates the two countries now, and also measures, and huge measures of restrictions, of movement, and all of that is causing many people to leave the country. And now, I think, imagine like hundred thousand Christians in Bethlehem, let's say fifty

• 21:02Speaker 02

  years ago or so, today we have less than thirty thousand.

• 21:08Tucker Carlson?

  Really?

• 21:08Speaker 02

  Yeah, a huge drop.

• 21:10Tucker Carlson?

  Do they receive aid from American Christian churches?

• 21:14Speaker 02

  Not to my knowledge. They might receive like projects here and there, but you know, like substantial money to keep their businesses. You know, I just want you to go now, especially during the war, the Gaza War, in the last two years, go to Bethlehem and see what is happening there.

• 21:30Tucker Carlson?

  I don't think I could.

• 21:31Speaker 02

  The little town of Bethlehem is bleeding right now. There's no business, no tourists, no visitors.

• 21:36Tucker Carlson?

  I don't understand, so the American Christian churches, broadly speaking, the church, Christians in the United States, is by far the richest in the world and the biggest?

• 21:46Tucker Carlson?

  And why wouldn't they send help to Christians in the town where Jesus was born and the town that he grew up?

• 21:56Speaker 02

  You know, I'm sure that, you know, people may have different answers, but I think my answer would be the kind of the big answer would be which could be shocking for some people, that is that they would be concerned that they send the money and it ends up in the hands of the wrong people. You know, like, let's be honest about this.

• 22:14Tucker Carlson?

  Well, if there's, let's just say, and I think that's a concern for everybody giving money to charity. It's certainly a concern for me in general.

• 22:21Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 22:21Tucker Carlson?

  But if there's, say, a church, the Church of the Nativity, the one that the IDF shot people in.

• 22:28Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 22:30Tucker Carlson?

  I've been there and it's kind of falling apart. And I remember thinking, why, where are the Christians around the world to support the Church of the Nativity on the site where Jesus, their Savior, was born?

• 22:40Speaker 02

  Indeed. And that's why, you know, like you would see.

• 22:42Tucker Carlson?

  I just don't understand that.

• 22:43Speaker 02

  You know, I don't understand that either. But let me tell you something like, you know, an example, like how charity starts at home. You know, we know that our king here in Jordan, King Abdullah, has donated substantial amount of money to the repair of the Nativity and the Holy Subplicar. And the same thing happened also partially with the Palestinian Authority. And also there are money that came also from partners from Europe and other places as well. But you know, the amount of money, as you said, like, you know, and the charity that you think that could be given to the Christian community to enforce and, you know, maintain its presence in the Holy Land?

• 23:28Speaker 02

  You don't see that in ways that you could imagine, that sisters and brothers in Christ, siblings in Christ around the world would be giving to their church.

• 23:38Tucker Carlson?

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• 25:47Tucker Carlson?

  So I think Americans watching this may be confused to hear that a Muslim king of Jordan is giving money to Christian holy sites in Israel and the West Bank.

• 26:01Tucker Carlson?

  Tell us how that arrangement works. Why would that be a Muslim king's responsibility?

• 26:07Speaker 02

  Yeah, so there's something here in the Holy Land has been for a long time. What we call the status quo, or the existing reality. Especially on holy sites. On Haram Sharif, many people in the West call it Temple Mount. And also in the Holy Sepulcher, and the holy sites in Jerusalem.

• 26:29Tucker Carlson?

  The Church of the Holy Sepulcher is the place where Jesus is tomb.

• 26:33Speaker 02

  Yeah, which is the Church of the Resurrection, what we call in Arabic as well. Qanist al-Qiyami. So, for a long time, the king of Jordan, under the Hashemite custodianship of holy sites. The king personally is the custodian of holy sites of Christian and Muslim holy sites in Jerusalem.

• 26:53Tucker Carlson?

  So, the king of Jordan is the custodian of both Al-Aqsa Mosque?

• 26:59Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 27:00Tucker Carlson?

  And of the Church of the Holy Sepulcher?

• 27:01Speaker 02

  That's correct.

• 27:03Tucker Carlson?

  And that remains the case today?

• 27:06Speaker 02

  That remains the case today, and it will remain for a long time.

• 27:09Tucker Carlson?

  Even though it's extremely difficult for Jordanians to go the 25 miles over there to Jerusalem?

• 27:15Speaker 02

  Then that's correct. So I think, you know, like people like myself and the heads of churches?

• 27:19Tucker Carlson?

  Yes.

• 27:19Speaker 02

  As well as al-Awkaaf and the sheikhs in Jerusalem. We will be the manifestation of the reality, of the custodianship.

• 27:28Tucker Carlson?

  It's just so interesting. Why does that persist today? And is that a good arrangement, the status quo that you described?

• 27:35Speaker 02

  Of course, it is. It's not only good, but I think for us, it saves the character of Jerusalem. Where the three faiths, both Christianity, Judaism, and Islam, can exist side by side without any problems.

• 27:49Tucker Carlson?

  Wouldn't it be easier just to hand the custodianship over to the government that runs it? Which is the Israeli government? Its political capitals in Jerusalem?

• 27:57Speaker 02

  That will be partial, and it will be exclusive.

• 28:00Tucker Carlson?

  How do you think Christian holy sites would do? And Muslim holy sites would do?

• 28:04Speaker 02

  You know, we have, we have, let me give you an example where, you know, like the Holy Sepulchre. For different reasons, we for a long time during Holy Saturday, which is the Holy Fire, one of the most sacred days in the Christian calendar.

• 28:19Tucker Carlson?

  Yes.

• 28:19Speaker 02

  Of course, this is the night before Easter.

• 28:22Tucker Carlson?

  Yes.

• 28:22Speaker 02

  You know, the restrictions that the police there enforce on pilgrims is unprecedented. You know, it's something that, you know, we always plead, please, you know, let the pilgrims come and enjoy.

• 28:34Tucker Carlson?

  Now this is happening?

• 28:35Speaker 02

  Now this is happening every year now, yes, of course. Last year.

• 28:39Tucker Carlson?

  So just to be clear, the Israeli government is preventing Christians from celebrating Easter in Jerusalem?

• 28:44Speaker 02

  You know, yes, they are preventing Christians and pilgrims to celebrating Easter. You know, and the claim is, according to the police there, for safety reasons. You know, but we telling them like, you know, for almost next, the Church of the Holy Sepulchre was built in 300 something. Okay, now that's 1700 years ago. And we have always, you know, celebrated the Holy Fire. We always celebrated and welcome Easter. We didn't hear of somebody get banned or somebody got.

• 29:14Tucker Carlson?

  They're Christians, pilgrims, they're not terrorists.

• 29:16Speaker 02

  Indeed, and then, but you know, now, under the kind of Israeli law for safety procedures, they are restricting the number of Christians going into the Holy Sepulchre. Instead of 10,000, they are restricting that sometimes to 1,500. And by negotiation, you can get them close to like 3,000. This is by miracle, you know, if you're lucky. Now, again, you know, for them, for the, to be, to be fair. They're saying that for safety reasons, we're not allowing people in. And this is the discussion every year.

• 29:48Tucker Carlson?

  Are there similar restrictions on Jewish religions observances in Jerusalem?

• 29:53Speaker 02

  In Israel generally, there have been some. There's been an incident in the north, in Meron, where people, like Hasidic community, were celebrating a very famous holy site.

• 30:04Tucker Carlson?

  Yes.

• 30:05Speaker 02

  And the bridge collapsed and 150 people died.

• 30:10Tucker Carlson?

  Oof.

• 30:10Speaker 02

  And since that time, they were restricting more and more public worship. And I will tell you an incident as well, you know, like where on the Mount of Tabor, which is the Transfiguration mountain, that the Holy Orthodox, the Orthodox Church celebrates every year. Also, there have been restrictions there because of safety, not to allow pilgrims to go to the holy mountain for the celebration of Transfiguration. This is the fourth year in a row that they're not allowed to, pilgrims, to go up for the celebration. Again, under safety restrictions.

• 30:43Tucker Carlson?

  Have there been, in your lifetime, safety problems with Christians celebrating Easter in Jerusalem?

• 30:52Speaker 02

  Not to my knowledge.

• 30:53Tucker Carlson?

  So, the US ambassador to Israel, Mike Huckabee, is a Christian minister.

• 31:00Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 31:00Tucker Carlson?

  What has he done to help Christians celebrate Easter in Jerusalem?

• 31:07Speaker 02

  We are in touch with the American Embassy. And we are also trying to kind of ask Huckabee and also the staff in the Embassy to help the Christian community talk to Israel in order to enlarge the numbers of people who celebrate Easter. You know, sometimes they are successful in raising the number, sometimes they are not successful. But, but again, the issue, again, this is an internal matter.

• 31:31Tucker Carlson?

  Have you spoke... Right, but are ambassadors very involved in internal matters in Israel?

• 31:37Speaker 02

  Sure.

• 31:37Tucker Carlson?

  Of course. Have you spoken to Ambassador Huckabee?

• 31:41Speaker 02

  I've visited him from afar, you know, but, you know, other heads of churches have spoken to him, yes.

• 31:46Tucker Carlson?

  But he hasn't called you?

• 31:48Speaker 02

  He hasn't called me personally, no.

• 31:51Tucker Carlson?

  Have American politicians called? Since the US is funding a lot of this, have American politicians, Christian politicians called to ask you what they can do to help Christians in Jerusalem?

• 32:05Speaker 02

  You know, we reach out, they reach out, you know, they especially like, you know, talking about different issues. Like, let me give you an example. You know, I'm trying to kind of get to my hospital in Gaza, for example.

• 32:15Tucker Carlson?

  Yes.

• 32:16Speaker 02

  And I'm trying to kind of get permission to go there, but I'm not allowed.

• 32:20Tucker Carlson?

  To go to your hospital in Gaza?

• 32:22Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 32:23Tucker Carlson?

  Why?

• 32:24Speaker 02

  You see, I have an Israeli citizenship because I come from Nazareth, so I'm an Israeli citizen.

• 32:30Tucker Carlson?

  You are an Israeli.

• 32:32Speaker 02

  Yeah, well, yes. But, you know, at the same time, so basically, I'm not allowed in according to their calculations.

• 32:38Tucker Carlson?

  Why?

• 32:39Speaker 02

  So I tried to ask, you know, the kind of, our friends from the American Embassy and other places, you know, in order to intervene, but the answer is no.

• 32:49Tucker Carlson?

  So Huckabee hasn't helped you get to your Christian hospital in Gaza?

• 32:53Speaker 02

  I don't want to blame Huckabee for this, you know, but again...

• 32:55Tucker Carlson?

  He's the ambassador. No, I know you have to be diplomatic. I just, I'm just surprised that someone who, you know, is a minister, isn't doing more for Christians in this region.

• 33:06Speaker 02

  Yeah, again, but again, it's about my safety, I guess.

• 33:09Tucker Carlson?

  Your safety. Would you feel unsafe going to Gaza?

• 33:11Speaker 02

  Absolutely not. I've been to Gaza many, many times.

• 33:17Speaker 02

  And actually, two days before the war, I was there with bishops, you know. We visited the hospital and I would visit, I've been trying to visit the hospital, you know. Others were successful, like other heads of churches managed to go there, both patriarchs. But I haven't, unfortunately.

• 33:34Tucker Carlson?

  It's a Christian hospital?

• 33:36Speaker 02

  It's an Anglican Episcopal, a Christian hospital.

• 33:39Tucker Carlson?

  What is the name of it?

• 33:40Speaker 02

  Al Ahli Arab Hospital.

• 33:43Tucker Carlson?

  What kind of condition is it in?

• 33:46Speaker 02

  It is now kind of in a condition that operates on minimal capacity. I'm sure that people have been following. I don't know how many people know about this, but it was hit at least eight times during the war.

• 34:01Tucker Carlson?

  It was bombed eight times?

• 34:02Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 34:03Tucker Carlson?

  Why?

• 34:04Speaker 02

  You know, there are different accusations why it happened. You know, I kind of suspect, suspicion about like activities in the hospital. And every time we asked for people to kind of prove, you know, what was happening there so that we at least know what is going on in our hospital. But every time we hear nothing. And you know, unfortunately-

• 34:26Tucker Carlson?

  Were people killed in those bombings?

• 34:28Speaker 02

  You know, on two incidents, there have been two big explosions. The first one happened only two weeks after the, or even less than two weeks from the beginning, on the 17th of October 2003, where a huge rocket fell and it became really controversy. Israel accused Islamic Jihad for a mis-rocketed missile. You know, in Gaza, they said, "No, it was Israeli rocket that came in." And there were two narratives at that time. Anyway, but this is the kind of thing that we-

• 35:01Tucker Carlson?

  Do we know the answer now?

• 35:02Speaker 02

  No, I don't know the answer. People asked me and I said, "Like, do I look like a soldier to you to tell you what happened there?"

• 35:09Tucker Carlson?

  Well, it's your government. You were born in the country and you can't get a straight answer about your hospital?

• 35:13Speaker 02

  No. No, their answer was that, you know, it was a mis-rocketed missile.

• 35:21Tucker Carlson?

  But it was bombed seven more times?

• 35:23Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 35:24Tucker Carlson?

  Do we know who did that?

• 35:25Speaker 02

  No, the other ones, you know, Israelis did that, they didn't comment.

• 35:30Tucker Carlson?

  Did they not know it was a hospital?

• 35:32Speaker 02

  They know it was a hospital.

• 35:33Tucker Carlson?

  Why would they bomb a hospital? A Christian hospital?

• 35:36Speaker 02

  Again, you know, but as I said, you know, they say when they do that, that there is suspicion of terrorist activities in the hospital.

• 35:44Speaker 03

  You can see all these people here. They just came out of the dunes. There's got to be around a hundred of them. And now a boat's going to try to come around and pick them up.

• 35:50Tucker Carlson?

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• 36:30Tucker Carlson?

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• 36:44Speaker 00

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• 37:14Speaker 05

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• 37:44Tucker Carlson?

  How many people have been killed in Gaza?

• 37:48Speaker 02

  Now, we know that, you know, I think I had, I just read recently that even the government admitted that there's 70,000 who were killed. Which they didn't before, but I need to kind of, again, my sources are not kind of 100%, but at least from our perspective,

• 38:06Speaker 02

  we have heard and we have seen that there is 70,000 people who were killed. Many of them are children and women, not terrorists according to Israeli categories.

• 38:16Tucker Carlson?

  Do we have any idea what percentage were women and children?

• 38:20Speaker 02

  You know, there are statistics out there, but I'm sure the vast majority are women and children.

• 38:28Tucker Carlson?

  Is it possible to know? Who can go to Gaza at some point? I think it's fair to ask, like, what happened over the last couple of years in Gaza? Are we ever going to know?

• 38:41Speaker 02

  You know, like, you know, I'm sure that we will know in one way or the other. But again, I think the catastrophe that happened there, nothing will heal. I just kind of, just by seeing the amount of destruction and the death that happened there, it just breaks one's heart. There are no words. Again, you know, I'm sure that people will know, like, who did it and why they did it and how did it come. You know, but for us, you know, the bottom line, there are people who are suffering, there are people who are dying. And that's the result of violence, you know, and which is devastating for us.

• 39:23Tucker Carlson?

  How are you treated in Israel?

• 39:26Speaker 02

  Depending where you live, where you are, where you're walking. So I think, you know, in many places in Israel, where you are respected, there's freedom of movement. I can go in most places. There are places that are restricted to any civilian, if you know what I mean. But, you know, in general, I can go in many places.

• 39:46Speaker 02

  You know, if I'm walking in the old city, for example, if I'm in my suit, all good and well, you know, of course, the mosaic is so beautiful there, people living together, walking together. You would enjoy the souk. But sometimes, if I'm wearing my cross and my cassock, I could be treated differently by some groups.

• 40:05Tucker Carlson?

  How are you treated?

• 40:07Speaker 02

  I could, maybe could spat at, for example.

• 40:10Tucker Carlson?

  Has someone ever spit at you?

• 40:11Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 40:12Tucker Carlson?

  Really?

• 40:13Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 40:13Tucker Carlson?

  More than once?

• 40:14Speaker 02

  More than once.

• 40:16Tucker Carlson?

  Yeah. Why?

• 40:18Speaker 02

  I just, I think, you know, I asked this question, why? Um, and in many cases, I have seen that, you know, like in many, um, schools in, in the Jewish sector, um, who have, um, this is the answer that I received, who have, um, bad flashes of memories of persecution. The cross reminds them of, uh, uh, persecution and expulsion and what have you.

• 40:48Tucker Carlson?

  So they're teaching their children that the cross is a sign of persecution and spit on Christians?

• 40:54Speaker 02

  Yeah. And, you know, we know that, you know, there are so many, many, um, not many, but there are some. And these are fringe groups that we have, as heads of churches, uh, spoke about when, when we, when there's vandalism of churches, when there is a spitting at clergy, when there is doing nasty things to clergy.

• 41:12Tucker Carlson?

  Um, what kind of nasty things?

• 41:16Speaker 02

  Uh, and I've kind of, uh, say that on the air, um, I don't know, I say, but they're doing like really shameful things, you know, in, uh, um, in front of church doors.

• 41:28Tucker Carlson?

  Really?

• 41:29Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah. I'm saying, I've been, been caught on camera many times.

• 41:33Tucker Carlson?

  Oh, you act like this, everyone knows this. I don't think many people in America know this, to Christian churches and Christian clergy.

• 41:40Speaker 02

  Yeah, and, and again, you know, um, these are like fringe groups

• 41:43Tucker Carlson?

  Of course.

• 41:43Speaker 02

  of people who are radicals, you know, who live in Jerusalem. Uh, their, their main mission is to purify Jerusalem from infidels, Christians. That's, that's, that's their mission. And they say it out loud, it's on their website, you know, it's not, it's nothing hidden.

• 42:00Tucker Carlson?

  Are you talking about Al Qaeda or?

• 42:02Speaker 02

  No, no, I'm talking about Jewish radical groups. Settler groups, yeah.

• 42:07Tucker Carlson?

  Do you face vandalism from Islamic groups in Jerusalem?

• 42:12Speaker 02

  No, not to my knowledge, no. We don't have, we don't have in Jerusalem?

• 42:16Tucker Carlson?

  Yes.

• 42:17Speaker 02

  No.

• 42:20Tucker Carlson?

  So, in the United States, after 9/11, we were told, and I think it was true, that there were these madrassas, these schools, Islamic schools, that were producing radicalism, true radicalism, against the infidel, Christians and Jews. It sounds like something similar is going on in Jerusalem now, and you're the target of it. Can you talk? I mean, that's clearly bad. Can you... Is there anyone you can talk to about this?

• 42:44Speaker 02

  Yeah, we've talked to the police, we've talked to the government, and there are restrictions. You know, the one thing about this, you know, that we were said that told, you know, that spitting on people is not a charge. Now, we need to have a law that forbids this, or there will be a kind of punishment to somebody who spits, or something like that. So, there's no law. So, the people brought, if you press charges, they bring them in and they release the next day.

• 43:13Tucker Carlson?

  There's no law in Israel against spitting on Christians?

• 43:17Speaker 02

  No, spitting in general, not on Christians, you know, like...

• 43:19Tucker Carlson?

  But you can walk up and spit in someone's face for religious reasons?

• 43:22Speaker 02

  No, that's something different. And the spitting doesn't happen, like, you know, directly at you. So, like, if I'm passing...

• 43:27Tucker Carlson?

  Yeah.

• 43:27Speaker 02

  And they would be spitting, like, in front of you. Like, but it's directed to you, but not on you personally. They don't touch you. They don't touch you.

• 43:37Tucker Carlson?

  How common is that?

• 43:42Speaker 02

  I don't know, I don't have statistics, but...

• 43:43Tucker Carlson?

  No, but in your experience, you live there.

• 43:46Speaker 02

  Um, yeah, quite often, you know, like, it happens. You know, I don't say on daily basis, but, you know, it happens quite often. Even an Israeli channel did actually one time a kind of a secret investigation, and they dressed somebody in a... in a katharic, with a cross, and they walked into the old city with hidden cameras. And, you know, they caught one, like, right there, on camera. And then they spoke about it in Israeli channels. Good for them. Yeah, of course, you know, they name some, sometimes quite often they name things, but again, nothing happens.

• 44:26Speaker 02

  That's the problem, like, you know, and that's why we have insisted on talking about reconciliation and building trust within the community. You know, calling the rabbis and, you know, the imams and the Christian leaders, you know, to teach their children about tolerance, about acceptance, and to refrain from incitement,

• 44:49Speaker 02

  you know, and exclusion and alienation and demonizing the other. No, Jerusalem is such a beautiful place, it's a sacred place.

• 44:55Tucker Carlson?

  Yes, it is.

• 44:56Speaker 02

  But we have, you know, like, groups, and talking about, you know, like, you know, extremists, you know, like, in every religion there is extremists.

• 45:05Tucker Carlson?

  Of course.

• 45:05Speaker 02

  And we're not saying that, you know, like, only one. Our Christian history is not, you know, like, neither clear or pure of...

• 45:14Tucker Carlson?

  We've had some Christian extremists, for sure.

• 45:16Speaker 02

  Indeed. But, you know, that's why, you know, today, I think in the 21st century, it's important that we reconsider a lot of our views, even as religious people, how we view other people around us.

• 45:31Tucker Carlson?

  Yes.

• 45:32Speaker 02

  And I wish, that's my prayer, you know, we have always said, you know, like, the Holy Land, the Middle East, Christians, Muslims, and Jews lived together here for centuries.

• 45:43Tucker Carlson?

  Yes.

• 45:44Speaker 02

  This is not something that new that we're trying to understand.

• 45:46Tucker Carlson?

  No.

• 45:47Speaker 02

  To how to live together or how to manage our relationships. You know, but, you know, unfortunately, I don't want to kind of accuse anybody, but outside forces have caused us to fight among ourselves.

• 46:00Tucker Carlson?

  I've noticed.

• 46:01Speaker 02

  Unfortunately, that's what, that's how we...

• 46:02Tucker Carlson?

  So has the extremism in Jerusalem, I mean, just to restate, you were born in the state of Israel, you're an Israeli citizen, so you would know, has it become more pronounced? Is there more extremism now, do you think?

• 46:16Speaker 02

  There's more extremism, and I can see, and that's on every side.

• 46:23Speaker 02

  Yeah, that happens. You see, the thing that, you know, the more you have extremist group on one side, of course, the more you have the response of other extremists on the other side. So it happens all across the communities, unfortunately.

• 46:36Tucker Carlson?

  But right now, it seems like there is no Christian extremism. I haven't seen any Christian terrorism groups here.

• 46:42Speaker 02

  I wouldn't say like terrorist groups, Christian, but you know, there are some who have extremist views.

• 46:47Tucker Carlson?

  Yes.

• 46:48Speaker 02

  We see pockets coming up every now and then.

• 46:50Tucker Carlson?

  I'm sure.

• 46:51Speaker 02

  But we as heads of churches always say and talk to our children. You know, you don't forget that you are Christian and you have to abide by our Christian faith.

• 47:04Speaker 02

  You know, like any engagement in violence or military or assignment is something that not speak about our identity or our faith.

• 47:13Tucker Carlson?

  Do Christians serve in the IDF?

• 47:16Speaker 02

  There are very, very few who do. Not many.

• 47:21Tucker Carlson?

  Why?

• 47:22Speaker 02

  Why they do serve?

• 47:23Tucker Carlson?

  Why don't they serve?

• 47:24Speaker 02

  No, because they see themselves as... First of all, it's not compulsory for them. So it's not compulsory for Arab citizens of Israel to serve in the army. And therefore, they don't.

• 47:39Speaker 02

  But there are very few who do. And again, you know, let's remember that the Arabs inside Israel, they are Palestinians. By origin, at least, they are Palestinians, you know. And imagine like, you know, I served Nablus, which is Shechem in the West Bank, and the city in the northern part of the West Bank. And I was responsible for two congregations there. And I got married from Nablus. So my wife is Palestinian.

• 48:08Speaker 02

  And imagine like, you know, if I, you know, I would be like a soldier in the West Bank rather than a priest in the West Bank. How would I treat my own people?

• 48:22Speaker 02

  Like, it doesn't make sense. You know, for me, it's just to think about the matter is just kind of makes me, I don't know, faint, maybe.

• 48:32Tucker Carlson?

  What's happening? A lot of attention in the United States has been paid to Gaza, some attention.

• 48:38Tucker Carlson?

  What's happening in the West Bank?

• 48:41Speaker 02

  In the West Bank, I think, you know, and we have seen over the past few weeks especially, and actually not only the few weeks, you know, even during the war, the escalation of violence of settlers in the West Bank has risen drastically. And not only to

• 49:04Speaker 02

  kind of Muslim neighborhoods and villages, but also to Christian villages.

• 49:09Tucker Carlson?

  Really?

• 49:10Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 49:11Tucker Carlson?

  Can you give me an example?

• 49:13Speaker 02

  Yeah, I can give you an example of, the two recent examples is one in the town of Taibi,

• 49:20Speaker 02

  where actually you mentioned Ambassador Huckabee. He himself went there to visit the village after these attacks of settlers burning and graffiti on walls and going into these farms to harass farmers who are Christian. And recently also in Bir Zayt, near Ramallah, where we had an attack of settlers on a woman. They hit her with a stone head and then they arrested her son after that.

• 49:50Tucker Carlson?

  Why did they arrest her son?

• 49:52Speaker 02

  Because he tried to defend her like his mother. And because of that, you know, he was arrested.

• 50:00Tucker Carlson?

  And these are Christians?

• 50:02Speaker 02

  Yeah, he is Christian.

• 50:03Tucker Carlson?

  How many

• 50:06Tucker Carlson?

  US administration officials weighed in on this? Did Ambassador Huckabee say anything about this?

• 50:12Speaker 02

  No, he definitely said something about Taibi. I haven't seen anything about the last incident, but he went there in person actually and visited the police.

• 50:22Tucker Carlson?

  But the most recent attack, where a Christian woman was attacked by settlers with a rock to the head and her son was arrested for trying to defend her, Ambassador Huckabee hasn't said anything about that.

• 50:31Speaker 02

  I didn't see anything myself, but he could...

• 50:33Tucker Carlson?

  You would know, since you're the Archbishop in Jerusalem, I think.

• 50:38Tucker Carlson?

  I'm sorry, I just want to be very clear about his shameful anti-Christian behavior. I just want to be very clear about what I'm saying. What Ambassador Huckabee is doing is shameful. And he's gonna have to answer for it. So if that's my opinion, you don't have to ratify that. But it's shocking to me. So, more broadly, why would these attacks be accelerating? Why would there be more attacks now?

• 51:02Speaker 02

  Now, I think the less the IDF and Israeli government persecutes those who do these shameful actions, which I call evil and sin, actually.

• 51:15Tucker Carlson?

  Yes, of course.

• 51:16Speaker 02

  The more they do. That's the norm, unfortunately.

• 51:21Tucker Carlson?

  Let me just close by contrasting your experience in your country, which is Israel, where you live, with the experience in Jordan. Are there attacks on Christians in Jordan?

• 51:34Speaker 02

  That question makes me laugh, first of all.

• 51:37Tucker Carlson?

  Well, in the United States, we were told that Christians are murdered in the Middle East by Muslims. This is a country run by a Muslim king. And so it would be interesting to know how many Christians are driven off their land here.

• 51:52Speaker 02

  Quite often, I see on the TV, or even in many reports, many people, when they see us in the States sometimes, a few people who see us in the States sometimes, in Jerusalem or other places, they will tell us, as Arabs, "Please, go to Syria, go to Jordan, go to..." "Why are you staying here?" They ask us this question.

• 52:20Tucker Carlson?

  To you?

• 52:22Speaker 02

  Yeah, to me and to others, you know, any Arab. Many people will say, "Why are you staying here? Just go to an Arab country."

• 52:29Tucker Carlson?

  They say that to your face?

• 52:31Speaker 02

  Yeah, they would say that to my face. And, you know, like, honestly speaking, you know, sometimes, and I'm saying that sarcastically, of course, you know, I think about it, and I think they are right. Because when I come to Jordan, I feel more at home than being in other places inside my own home country, honestly.

• 52:52Tucker Carlson?

  How long has your family been in Jesus's hometown of Nazareth?

• 52:59Speaker 02

  I wish I have my family three going back to the time of Jesus, but I think you know, you remind me of a question, if I may paraphrase your question. It said, when people, I tell people that I'm Christian from Nazareth, and they tell me, "Oh, nice, this is really cool. So when were you converted?" So I tell them, "2,000 years ago." That's my answer, like, you know, "Come on, Christianity started in places like the baptism site here, like Bethlehem, like Nazareth, where the angel appeared to Mary."

• 53:36Tucker Carlson?

  Jesus is from Nazareth?

• 53:38Speaker 02

  He is from Nazareth, Mary is from Nazareth. But you know, so that's ignorance, again, it's ignorance. And sometimes it's deliberate, intentional ignorance even.

• 53:49Tucker Carlson?

  It's all pretty amazing. Does that happen to you when you're in Jordan? Because there are, of course, holy sites here, we're at one right now.

• 53:57Speaker 02

  You know, again, I said like, I feel blessed where I am. When I travel in my own diocese, I go to Lebanon, I come here to Jordan, my other home. I'm also a Jordanian. I consider myself a Jordanian citizen by virtue of being responsible in this place for my community. But honestly speaking, like, whenever I come to this place, Jordan, Lebanon even, I feel like, you know, this is my home. I feel myself like fulfilled because I know that I'm free in this country. I can be myself without being worrying that I would be spat at or...

• 54:40Tucker Carlson?

  But Jordan is 98% Muslim.

• 54:42Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 54:44Tucker Carlson?

  But you feel freer here?

• 54:45Speaker 02

  I feel, yeah, of course. At this point in time, yes. I do free.

• 54:55Tucker Carlson?

  Do you have a message to Christians in the United States?

• 54:59Speaker 02

  No, I have a message, yes, to say that, you know, my dear sisters and brothers, in Christ and in humanity. No, I want you to think about these places as treasures. Now, these places, Jordan, Palestine, you know, the Galilee inside what Israel today, these are places that actually embraced the descent and the incarnation of our faith as Christians. We need to preserve these places. We need to support the people here. Not only Christians, I'm not saying like we need to be only looking at Christians, but supporting people who live here because your support, you know, ensures the character of these places

• 55:42Speaker 02

  to be a safe home for all the people who live here, whether they are Jews, Christians, Muslims.

• 55:48Tucker Carlson?

  That's right.

• 55:49Speaker 02

  Because we are all God's children. We have been living together here for a long time. And please, you know, I just want to say a small example. If you want to pray for whoever whom your heart loves, okay, please don't divide us by your prayers. Don't further divide us by your prayers. We want you to pray for all the people of the Holy Land.

• 56:12Tucker Carlson?

  Thank you, Archbishop. I appreciate it.

• 56:14Speaker 02

  Thank you very much.

• 56:15Tucker Carlson?

  So, thank you for doing this. One of the reasons I wanted to talk to you was even I was amazed to discover how many prominent, like truly prominent, Christian families there are in Jordan, a lot, and you're from one of the most prominent. What's it like to be a Christian in an overwhelmingly Muslim country here?

• 56:35Speaker 05

  Well, you know, Christians here in Jordan have always felt, you know, really one and the same with the Muslims in Jordan. And it goes back thousands of years, really, Tucker. So it's always felt like we're really one and the same. Islam is very much an integral part of our culture as Christians here. Yeah, we feel very comfortable.

• 56:54Tucker Carlson?

  As Christians here?

• 56:55Speaker 05

  As Christians, absolutely.

• 56:57Tucker Carlson?

  So you went to school, a number of very prominent schools in the United States. You spent a lot of time living in the US. So you know that most Americans are gonna be surprised to hear that.

• 57:08Speaker 05

  Oh, of course. I mean, you know, a lot of my American friends, when I first met them, they were surprised that, you know, I'm Christian from Jordan. And I'm like, what do you mean? I mean, this is where Christianity started, right? This is, we are the ancient Christians.

• 57:23Tucker Carlson?

  Yes.

• 57:24Speaker 05

  It's a bit upsetting for me.

• 57:25Tucker Carlson?

  Jesus was baptized right there.

• 57:27Speaker 05

  Right here. I mean, this is a very special place, the baptism site. It's very close to our hearts as Christians, not just here, but all over the world. And I can, can I say a little bit something about this site? Because we're here, Tucker. Yeah, so this baptism site, I mean, what most Christians around the world maybe sometimes forget is here we had the clearest manifestation in the Bible of the Holy Trinity. Right here, Tucker, where you and I are today. You know, if you remember from Bible, the voice of God.

• 58:02Tucker Carlson?

  Yes.

• 58:03Speaker 05

  And he said, you know, this is when Jesus is being baptized by Saint John. This is my son, of whom I'm well pleased, I think.

• 58:10Tucker Carlson?

  Yes.

• 58:11Speaker 05

  And then the son, right? The Holy Spirit in the, in the shape, descends in the shape of a dove. This happened here. And Christ's official mission, right, started in Jordan. So you can actually make the claim, this is not, you know, this is a biblical theological claim, that the mission of Christianity, salvation history, started right here. So of course, there are Christians in Jordan. And it's just a very special place to be. I hope you've had some time to.

• 58:42Tucker Carlson?

  I've had an amazing time. I've been, I've been to this country before and I, and I've always felt comfortable here. And if you say that, in the West, people are either incredulous or they accuse you of being a secret Muslim or Shiite or something, which I'm not at all. But I'm really struck that you said Islam is an integral part of the culture for Christians here. What does that mean?

• 59:08Speaker 05

  Well, look, it's, the faith traditions are so similar.

• 59:13Speaker 05

  It's remarkable, I mean, you know, if you look at the Quran, for example. The Quran is, Jesus was mentioned 25-plus times in the Quran. And he was mentioned under different words, different names. So Ayesha is what his name is in Arabic.

• 59:36Speaker 05

  The word of God, that's actually from the Quran. The Messiah, Al-Masih. That's also Ibn Maryam, son of Maryam. The other thing that you might find interesting is also the Virgin Mary, right? I mean, she was mentioned 30-plus times in the Quran. She's revered, right? Actually, she was the only woman whose name was actually mentioned in the Quran. No other name of a woman has been...

• 1:00:05Tucker Carlson?

  Really?

• 1:00:07Speaker 05

  Absolutely. Maryam is the only name that's named by name in the Quran as a woman.

• 1:00:13Tucker Carlson?

  As the mother of Jesus?

• 1:00:14Speaker 05

  As the mother of Jesus. There is a whole chapter in the Quran just dedicated for the Virgin Mary. So you can see, and of course, the same prophets, many of the same prophets, whether it's Elijah, or Moses, or Abraham, or, you know, they're in the Quran.

• 1:00:36Speaker 05

  As they are in the, you know, the New Testament and the Old Testament. So the faith traditions are very similar. So that's why the Muslims are actually very accepting of the Christian faith traditions. They are encompassing of the Christian faith traditions. So, yeah, I mean...

• 1:00:52Tucker Carlson?

  And you're saying this as a Christian?

• 1:00:54Speaker 05

  I'm saying this as a Christian here in Jordan, absolutely.

• 1:00:59Tucker Carlson?

  I'm at a disadvantage because I have not read the Quran. I'll just say that. But we have been taught for 25 years, since 9/11, that Islam is inherently hostile to Christianity. But you don't believe that?

• 1:01:12Speaker 05

  I totally disagree with that. I think hostility is, you know...

• 1:01:18Speaker 05

  Is a human thing?

• 1:01:20Tucker Carlson?

  Yes.

• 1:01:20Speaker 05

  You know, you find humans on all sides of the spectrum that are, you know, compassionate or hostile. That's a common thing across humanity, across the world. But demonize one religion, to say everyone in that religion is hostile is is an atrocity, Tucker. It's absolutely not true.

• 1:01:39Tucker Carlson?

  I agree with you. Did you experience discrimination growing up here as a Christian?

• 1:01:43Speaker 05

  Never. I've never felt discriminated against as a Christian. Of course, there's people that don't sometimes understand Christian religious tradition. And there are sometimes questions and there are sometimes theological, of course, differences. And, you know, you can have a discussion about that and argue about that, right? But discrimination in terms of, you know, I feel at a disadvantage to be a Christian here? Absolutely not.

• 1:02:10Tucker Carlson?

  So your family, I think I understand this, is at the level of prominence that you're gonna have to deal with the government at a certain point?

• 1:02:18Speaker 05

  Yes.

• 1:02:18Tucker Carlson?

  Yeah, okay.

• 1:02:19Speaker 05

  Of course.

• 1:02:19Tucker Carlson?

  This is a small country. It's a monarchy. You've never had any problems dealing with the government as a Christian?

• 1:02:25Speaker 05

  No. No, actually, that's a great question.

• 1:02:29Speaker 05

  So Christians are very well represented here, as you can imagine. They're really part of the social fabric of the economy and the political environment. So Christians are represented, you know, in the Senate, in Parliament, in government, in the military, in the private sector, even though we are a minority, right? But the representation is everywhere.

• 1:02:53Tucker Carlson?

  Well, you're a tiny minority, right?

• 1:02:55Speaker 05

  We are like probably 2%, 3% at this stage.

• 1:02:59Tucker Carlson?

  I'm just guessing, but it seems like if you're 2% or 3% of the population, you seem disproportionately represented among the affluent.

• 1:03:09Speaker 05

  Possibly. I think maybe minorities everywhere around the world, that's the case.

• 1:03:12Tucker Carlson?

  Yes, it is. Actually, that is true.

• 1:03:14Speaker 05

  If you think about it, right?

• 1:03:17Speaker 05

  But I don't know. I've never measured that. I don't know if there are statistics on that.

• 1:03:20Tucker Carlson?

  But that's never been a problem, I guess, because you do see minority groups around the world, as you said. You know, the Indians in Uganda in the 70s, or name a group. But the minority group often is disproportionately successful, and then they are persecuted for that.

• 1:03:36Speaker 05

  Right.

• 1:03:36Tucker Carlson?

  And that has not happened here.

• 1:03:37Speaker 05

  No. No, absolutely not. And there's a reason, I think, it's why it is... I'll tell you, I mean, I was thinking about sort of... Why is Jordan a special sort of model for that, right? Of coexistence, of interfaith harmony? I think there's three things, Tucker, and if these three things are there, you know, Christian minorities in the Holy Land, they will thrive. Number one is we have constitutional rights as equal citizens. It's in the Jordanian constitution. You know, so Christians and Muslims here have the same rights, complete equality. When it comes to even matters relating to Christian affairs,

• 1:04:22Speaker 05

  whether it's marriages and, you know, even some civil affairs, there are Christian courts that are different from the Sharia courts that there are for Muslims. So there's, in that sense, there's, you know, this sort of coexistence. But when it comes to, of course, civil and commercial and all of those kinds of laws, those apply to all of us equally here in Jordan. So constitutional rights are protected. That's number one.

• 1:04:45Tucker Carlson?

  So this is not, so Christianity is an official religion here?

• 1:04:48Speaker 05

  Absolutely. I mean, yeah, there's, in the constitution, there's freedom of worship, freedom of religion in the constitution. So this is, so very importantly, if you want to protect Christian minorities or any minority in that regard, anywhere in the world, constitutional rights have to be established. And they're established here. They were established here from the very start, right? You know, when the Jordanian tribes and the Hashemites agreed to form a constitution. And they've been there since then. So I would say that's the one, the first thing. The second thing, which I really think is important, is stability.

• 1:05:24Tucker Carlson?

  Yeah.

• 1:05:25Speaker 05

  Right? And the moment you, you don't have stability, the first to suffer are the minorities.

• 1:05:32Tucker Carlson?

  Are the weak, of course.

• 1:05:32Speaker 05

  Are the weak. And, you know, stability is so important. Economic stability, political stability, security, stability. And that's why it's so sacred, actually, to ensure that there is stability in the region. I would say the last thing is... Leadership, you know, we're very fortunate here to have, you know, His Majesty King Abdullah and Hashemite leadership. I mean, truly, really tremendously fortunate because the Hashemites have always been about interfaith dialogue, discourse, meritocracy, compassion, mercy. So I think when you have, you know, great leadership, stability and constitutional rights, yeah, a Christian minority can thrive, and that's what we have here.

• 1:06:17Tucker Carlson?

  It's, and my job is not to talk up Jordan, but I've always wondered, and all of your neighbors, I've spent time in all of your neighboring countries, always say the same thing, how do you have this country with really no energy resources, it's not inherently rich.

• 1:06:33Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 1:06:34Tucker Carlson?

  Absorb all these refugees from the creation of Israel in 1948, I mean, enormous number, and then lose a huge part of its territory in 67, absorb more refugees, and then absorb still more refugees through the years, including from the civil war in Syria, and now apparently are being pushed to absorb still more refugees from Gaza.

• 1:06:56Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 1:06:57Tucker Carlson?

  I don't think any country's ever been under this kind of pressure, this is for the outsider's perspective, anyway. How do you stay stable in the middle of all of that?

• 1:07:04Speaker 05

  That's a great question. I honestly, Tucker, I ask myself that all the time. And I think, you know, part of the answer is just the culture. The culture here, it's a very collectivist culture, it's a very tribal culture. You know, for example, the latest immigration of Syrian refugees, we had, I think, up to 1.5 million Syrian refugees during the Arab Spring.

• 1:07:30Tucker Carlson?

  This is a small country, isn't it?

• 1:07:32Speaker 05

  Yeah, that's on a per capita basis, it's like 40 million people moving into the US overnight, right? And that's the scale of the, I mean, can you imagine 40 million? People, all of Canada moving into the US looking for jobs.

• 1:07:46Tucker Carlson?

  I'm laughing, but, and I should say for people to follow this because it's a boutique question. There's a lot going on in the world, but this is interesting to me. This is all because of your geographic location. It's like you didn't ask for this, you just happen to be surrounded by these larger powers that decide they can use your country as like a place to store the products of their wars.

• 1:08:05Speaker 05

  Yeah, I mean, it's because it's stable, so we, you know, people say, you know, just move it to Jordan and let them deal with it. And to be honest, it's been difficult because the host community, the Jordanians, I mean, they've had to share resources with the refugees, they've had to share jobs, you know. We have very limited resources, as is that, Dr. Bi, they financial, water resources, energy resources, you know.

• 1:08:31Tucker Carlson?

  I've sidetracked my own question. So the original question was, how do you absorb more refugees over the past 80 years than you have people?

• 1:08:40Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 1:08:40Tucker Carlson?

  A lot more, and not fall apart?

• 1:08:45Speaker 05

  Look, a lot of it is, again, Hashemite leadership. It's taking care of refugees, using our limited resources to support them. On my understanding is we, especially with the last sort of Syrian refugees, we had a lot of support from the international community in the beginning. But over times, you know, there is donor fatigue over time.

• 1:09:09Tucker Carlson?

  Yeah.

• 1:09:09Speaker 05

  You know, the news moves on.

• 1:09:12Tucker Carlson?

  Right.

• 1:09:13Speaker 05

  And then the host community is stuck with the problem. And then we have to depend on our own resources. And obviously, a lot of it is just honestly us. It's local tax revenue, government support. We, of course, we do get some support still from international donors, from the US government,

• 1:09:31Speaker 05

  from other places around the world, so we're grateful for that. But yeah, it's tempting to let the host community deal with this problem because sort of the news cycle has moved on to something else, and that's a problem.

• 1:09:44Tucker Carlson?

  It's a question I'm interested in because from the American perspective, our country feels swamped with refugees. But no country, maybe in history, has been as swamped by refugees as yours. So it's just interesting to see how you've handled it.

• 1:09:58Speaker 05

  Yeah, no, I mean, I think people feel very much like, you know, the refugees coming in here, there's this moral sort of, you know...

• 1:10:10Speaker 05

  Understanding that we have to take care of our own. And just to give you a story, maybe from Jordan's history. If you want to go back even to the time of the earliest Christians, right? Because we're the ancient Christians, right? So we remember these stories. One of the Christian holy sites here in Jordan is called Pella. I don't know if you know about Pella. So that was a city in the old Roman Decapolis, right?

• 1:10:34Tucker Carlson?

  The ten cities that are referred to in the New Testament.

• 1:10:37Speaker 05

  They're referred to in the New Testament, exactly. So Pella is in Jordan. It's a beautiful site. It's well-preserved. That was the site of the first Christian refugees coming out of Jerusalem.

• 1:10:51Speaker 05

  You know, before Jerusalem was destroyed in 70 AD by General Titus.

• 1:10:56Tucker Carlson?

  Yes.

• 1:10:56Speaker 05

  You know, all of the Christians moved to Pella, actually. It's technically, arguably, right? According to archaeology, the first Christian refugee haven. And that's in Jordan. And I think this has been our history.

• 1:11:10Tucker Carlson?

  I did not know that.

• 1:11:11Speaker 05

  Yeah, we're the land of refugees. We are very much the land of refugees. And yeah, that's a nice story. And it's the same with the Iraq. And I think when we talk about, you know, the Iraqi refugees as well, a while back, Muslim and Christian moved here. And going back to sort of the point on stability, Tucker. So, you know, when you have, there was US intervention, as you called, in Iraq.

• 1:11:39Tucker Carlson?

  I do recall, yes, yeah. I heard about that.

• 1:11:44Speaker 05

  At the time of Saddam Hussein. And then the thing is, whenever you lose, whenever sort of there is a vacuum, that vacuum is always filled. And sometimes it's filled with, you know, bad elements. So Al Qaeda filled that vacuum in Iraq after 2003. And then you had, which then, of course, later became ISIS, right? Down the line. So all of a sudden, you had Muslim and Christians who were targeted. A lot of them came into Jordan. And, you know, I know a priest. He specializes in really taking care of the, especially both Muslim and Christian refugees, by the way, there's no selectivity there. They are here temporarily.

• 1:12:29Speaker 05

  They see themselves as being here temporarily until they can immigrate to other parts of the world. So they receive financial assistance, schooling. A lot of it is provided either by the state or even fundraised by the churches, the local churches, until they are able to immigrate to other parts of the world where there's more economic prosperity and stability and jobs.

• 1:12:51Tucker Carlson?

  So you're a Christian. You are 25 miles away from the most famous and important church in Christendom, and you've been one time in 50 years?

• 1:13:00Speaker 05

  Yeah, I need, I mean, obviously, it's, first of all, I can't just go there. I need a visa as a Jordanian. It's something that you have to apply for and...

• 1:13:11Tucker Carlson?

  How hard is it to get?

• 1:13:14Speaker 05

  Yeah, it's a process and you have to apply. It's, I can't recall how difficult it was to get the visa at the time, but also, you know, there's some security considerations.

• 1:13:24Tucker Carlson?

  What does that mean?

• 1:13:26Speaker 05

  I mean, I, you know, you see what's happening there now. How comfortable would Christians be or non-Christians even visiting the holy sites now in Jerusalem?

• 1:13:38Tucker Carlson?

  I'm totally confused. Those holy sites don't belong to the state of Israel, which is a political entity of very recent creation. Those holy sites are the center of our religion. They long predate by thousands of years the creation of the state of Israel. So why wouldn't Christians, any Christian, have a right to visit his own church?

• 1:13:57Speaker 05

  Yeah, I agree.

• 1:13:59Tucker Carlson?

  That's my perspective as the person who's paying for all this, so...

• 1:14:01Speaker 05

  I agree with you. I think, I think there's an angle I'd like to focus on here. So, you know, the Hashemites are the, very much the custodians of the Christian and the Muslim sites in Jerusalem. And I think maybe that if you allow me to talk, I think that's something that people don't realize is that a lot of the restoration work that happens there is very much funded personally by the king. I mean, the tomb of Jesus Christ in the Holy Sepulchre was restored by personal donations from King Abdullah.

• 1:14:37Tucker Carlson?

  Wait, what?

• 1:14:38Speaker 05

  Absolutely, yeah.

• 1:14:39Tucker Carlson?

  The tomb of Jesus was restored by the Muslim king of Jordan?

• 1:14:43Speaker 05

  Yeah, I mean, the king of Jordan...

• 1:14:45Tucker Carlson?

  It's kind of a surprise ending to the story, I have to say.

• 1:14:49Speaker 05

  He's a direct descendant of the Prophet Muhammad, right? And he's... The one restoring the tomb of Jesus Christ. And I think that's this interfaith story.

• 1:14:59Tucker Carlson?

  That's that's true.

• 1:15:00Speaker 05

  It is true.

• 1:15:03Speaker 05

  There's another story on the Church of the Holy Sepulchre. I think it's, I mean, it shows you just how old these traditions are in the region and how welcoming it used to be to people from all across all faiths, be they Jewish or Christian or Muslim, right, in the past.

• 1:15:20Speaker 05

  So since, I think, a thousand years ago, since Salahuddin or Saladin, right?

• 1:15:26Tucker Carlson?

  Yeah.

• 1:15:27Speaker 05

  The the keys to the Church of the Holy Sepulchre, okay, did not belong to any of the Christian dominations because they couldn't agree amongst themselves, right? The Armenian, the Orthodox, the African.

• 1:15:38Tucker Carlson?

  Ethiopian, yeah.

• 1:15:39Speaker 05

  Ethiopian, like, who's going to have the key to the church, right? And actually, that key was handed to, at the time, Salahuddin. And even today, those keys are handed to a Muslim family. It's, I think, the Sebe family of Jerusalem. They open the church in the morning, you know, and they close the church at night. So that's the kind of sort of, I mean, these are the stories we grew up with as Christians in the region, as Muslims in the region, even as Arab Jews, right, from the region. This is sort of the the faith and the the common faith and cultural tradition we grew up with here.

• 1:16:15Speaker 05

  So a lot of the stuff that we see today is very new. These are lines drawn in the sand by colonial powers that really sort of destroyed that social cohesion and the social fabric that existed here.

• 1:16:33Tucker Carlson?

  My complete outsider perspective, at the time, when the official capital of the state of Israel moved from Tel Aviv, a city of recent creation, to Jerusalem, a city that, as noted, long predates the state of Israel, was that Jerusalem changed from an international holy site to a kind of government garrison run by a city-state, run by a nation-state. And that's probably not good for the Christians.

• 1:17:05Tucker Carlson?

  Do you think that's fair?

• 1:17:06Speaker 05

  Yeah, I think Jerusalem belongs. Belongs to all people, right?

• 1:17:09Tucker Carlson?

  It surely doesn't belong to Bibi. It's not his. He didn't make it. None of those buildings was built by the government of Israel. Sorry.

• 1:17:18Tucker Carlson?

  So, but now it kind of feels like it belongs to Bibi. Is it, again, this is my perspective from thousands of miles away, but...

• 1:17:27Speaker 05

  Yeah, I mean, this is, this is a city that belongs to all people around the world. This is a holy city, especially people of the Abrahamic religions, as we say, right? I mean, another story on that is, I mean, my grandfather, he was a, he was a merchant from Salty. He started...

• 1:17:45Tucker Carlson?

  Where is that?

• 1:17:46Speaker 05

  It's, uh, it's actually sort of, it used to be the old capital here in, in Jordan. It's very close to here.

• 1:17:54Speaker 05

  Very close to Amman as well. It's an old city as well, Ottoman city, but also Roman city. Originally, the world is Saltes, anyway, Roman city. But, um, he used to, uh, he started the trade between Salty and Jerusalem when he was 13 years old. At the time, it was, again, Ottoman Empire, so you could move around, right? Damascus and Beirut and Jerusalem, and that's what the merchants used to do. I remember, and he said, and I asked him, "What was it like?" And the first merchant he met in Jerusalem, uh, the first, uh, you know, products he acquired and sold in Salty was in Jerusalem. I'm like, "What was it like, you know, when you visited there?" This is in the 30s.

• 1:18:35Tucker Carlson?

  Yeah.

• 1:18:35Speaker 05

  The 1930s or late 20s, I'm guessing. He said, "Look, it's, uh, it's amazing." I'm like, "What do you mean?" I'm like, "Well, you know, there were the Muslims and the Jews and the Christians together uh, in the streets playing backgammon, you know, uh, just one community, and you can't tell the difference. You can't tell the difference." And, um, and, uh, yeah, that's what they... Arabs, most of them were Arabs at the time, right? So that's sort of the Jerusalem I hear about. That's the Jerusalem I remember. That's the Jerusalem that I think all of us long for is, you know, a united Jerusalem.

• 1:19:18Speaker 05

  Well, one that's united for all faiths and, you know, the Jews, the Christians and the Muslims. And I think, I hope, I'm prayful that we will get there one day, Tucker.

• 1:19:30Tucker Carlson?

  It's just interesting, and you know this because you spend so much time in the United States, that I don't think it would enter the minds of most Americans that a Christian could be better treated here in Jordan than in Israel.

• 1:19:44Speaker 05

  I mean, I see the stories of how Christians are suffering in Israel, especially the Palestinian Christians.

• 1:19:52Speaker 05

  I haven't had the unfortunate experience of going through that suffering. But yeah, I don't think it's just the Christians. I think, you know, the occupation is an equal opportunity.

• 1:20:07Tucker Carlson?

  Oh, for sure. I don't think it's primarily the Christians. But what makes it galling from an American perspective, I am American, I see everything through the lens of the United States and its own interest, is that America is paying for this.

• 1:20:20Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 1:20:21Tucker Carlson?

  And America is a majority Christian country. So, I mean, we can all have different views about what our foreign policy ought to be, but I don't think many Americans are in favor of a foreign policy that oppresses their fellow Christians.

• 1:20:35Speaker 05

  I hope not.

• 1:20:41Speaker 05

  I hope not.

• 1:20:42Tucker Carlson?

  But you see the point.

• 1:20:43Speaker 05

  Yeah, absolutely, absolutely. I think, I mean, my advice would be to the Christians that really care in the US is, "Talk to us." Talk to the ancient Christians, you know, we've been here since Christ, we're here. Don't just listen to the DC experts, you know.

• 1:21:01Tucker Carlson?

  So you don't, they don't reach out to you?

• 1:21:04Speaker 05

  No, in fact, this, I think what I'm sharing with you today is something that's novel, right? This is not a narrative, I don't think, I mean, that you hear, right? In the, in the US a lot.

• 1:21:17Tucker Carlson?

  Ever? I feel shame listening to you, and I rarely feel shame, but I do feel shame listening to you that I didn't know more about this, because I am a Christian and I think we have an obligation to know what our tax dollars do to our fellow Christians. And I just haven't spent enough time thinking about it, and I think it's very odd that Christians in Jordan and in Israel aren't receiving help from Christians in the West. Do you think that?

• 1:21:47Speaker 05

  I do, I do, I think it's odd, and going back to sort of why the Jordanian sort of experience is unique. Remember those three things, stability is one of them. If, if the Christians in the US and in the West, right? They really cared about sort of the minority Christian communities here in the Holy Land. If they really do, and if they don't, I have a, you know, they have to really think about why they don't.

• 1:22:09Tucker Carlson?

  Oh, I agree.

• 1:22:11Speaker 05

  And I assume most of them do, right? And if they do, they really have to think about stability. And I, this is important to mention, Tucker, but possibly the most destabilizing thing happening in the region, right? Is the situation in Israel-Palestine. Without a just resolution.

• 1:22:31Tucker Carlson?

  Yes.

• 1:22:32Speaker 05

  A just resolution for the situation of the Palestinians there. It's just, it's just, you know, it's going to be even more destabilizing for communities in Palestine, in Jordan, you know, across the region.

• 1:22:45Tucker Carlson?

  Well, how about the United States? I mean, 9/11,

• 1:22:51Tucker Carlson?

  if you believe the 9/11 report, was committed by people who are mad about American foreign policy decisions in this region, right here.

• 1:23:02Tucker Carlson?

  So, you know, you fund mass murder in Gaza and there's no blowback to you? I think there's probably going to be, wouldn't you think?

• 1:23:11Speaker 05

  Yeah, I mean, look, there's, yeah, US intervention in the region, there's really positive stuff, and there's negative stuff, right? It's positive when it's economic and it's about...

• 1:23:22Tucker Carlson?

  Jordanians are so diplomatic. I love that.

• 1:23:24Speaker 05

  Well, it really is. It's truthful. I really feel that. Like, you look at, for example, USAID programs in Jordan, right?

• 1:23:31Tucker Carlson?

  Of course.

• 1:23:32Speaker 05

  They were so, you know, with the water infrastructure that they helped us develop here, with the education reform, you know, all that stuff. You know, job creation, that works, right? You know, our defense cooperation, that works, right? But when you look at military intervention, we pay the price, look at all the refugees, right, that come into the country, and it has an economic cost, and a social cost, and a security cost, and a political cost. So, I'm hoping that, you know, maybe President Trump, I know he called the Department of Defense the Department of War. I really hope President Trump, I know he cares about peace. I really hope he renames it the Department of Peace and Prosperity,

• 1:24:15Speaker 05

  because if you want to have real protection of Christian communities here, you have to invest in stability, intervene peacefully. You know, economically, FDI, it's great for the US. It's also great for the region.

• 1:24:30Tucker Carlson?

  What is likely to happen in Gaza next? What happens to all the people in Gaza?

• 1:24:39Speaker 05

  I mean, it's a genocide, right?

• 1:24:40Tucker Carlson?

  Yeah.

• 1:24:43Speaker 05

  And it's, I wish I knew, Tucker.

• 1:24:47Tucker Carlson?

  Well, all these redevelopment plans, and obviously, I'm always hoping for order and tidiness and prosperity. I mean, I think those are all godly things, or something, those are good. But you have, I don't know, close to 2 million people who are there, and they're in the way, and clearly, there's going to be an effort to, I don't know, I don't know what? Like, what happens to those people?

• 1:25:12Speaker 05

  And clearly, I think, that's my personal perspective. I'm not a politician, you know, I'm a businessman. So I think, you know, pragmatically and morally about things, right? They have to stay. We have to rebuild their homes and, you know, their livelihoods, their communities. That's, that's, I think, the only solution, Doctor. I mean, I don't see anyone that can accept morally, even politically, even just on a humanitarian basis, right? A forced expulsion, right, of people from Gaza, from their native homeland.

• 1:25:47Tucker Carlson?

  Of millions of people?

• 1:25:48Speaker 05

  Of millions of people.

• 1:25:50Tucker Carlson?

  That hasn't happened, you know, since the Second World War. So you hope it wouldn't happen now. But do you think that might happen?

• 1:25:59Speaker 05

  I'm not qualified, I think, to answer, to answer that question. All I can tell you is if it does happen on our watch, all of us are accountable for it.

• 1:26:09Tucker Carlson?

  I agree. Yeah, I agree completely. Why did you, I mean, I know you want to say the fancy schools that you went to, but you went to prominent schools in the United States and you could have stayed?

• 1:26:24Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 1:26:24Tucker Carlson?

  And I'm sure all of your classmates are prosperous at this point?

• 1:26:28Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 1:26:29Tucker Carlson?

  Yeah, from business school. But why did you come back?

• 1:26:32Speaker 05

  I've always wanted to come back. U.S. was, for me, an amazing experience, studying in the U.S. at the time. I was there mainly in the 90s, right?

• 1:26:40Tucker Carlson?

  Yeah.

• 1:26:42Speaker 05

  And, you know, I, I owe a lot to my education in the U.S. It was a very meaningful experience. There was, it felt like a lot of, at the time, this freedom of thought and expression, and then ultimately conscience.

• 1:26:57Tucker Carlson?

  Yes.

• 1:26:59Speaker 05

  That you can have there.

• 1:27:00Tucker Carlson?

  Exactly.

• 1:27:01Speaker 05

  And that's very liberating and...

• 1:27:03Tucker Carlson?

  Well, the point of freedom of speech is freedom of conscience. I get to believe what I, I get to speak my values out loud, right?

• 1:27:09Speaker 05

  Exactly, and I, I felt that in the U.S. when I was there. That was a very, very powerful lesson. But the intention was never to stay there. This is a very collectivist, again, society. Family here is very important, you know, community here is very important. And to want to be part of that and to give back to that and... To support that and to have my family and my children grow up in that sort of collectivist environment is really more important than money or anything else, honestly. And that's how I'm programmed.

• 1:27:43Speaker 05

  I'm fortunate, I can say that, because I could also afford to come back. You know, I was, uh... My father was a businessman, my grandfather was a businessman. So I could afford to come here and, you know, to explore sort of my career journey. So some people can't, so they optimize working in other parts of the world. So I have to be honest about that. But no regrets, I love it here.

• 1:28:09Tucker Carlson?

  Did you have family on the other side of the river in 48 or 67?

• 1:28:13Speaker 05

  No.

• 1:28:14Tucker Carlson?

  Really?

• 1:28:15Speaker 05

  We're very much Jordanian.

• 1:28:17Tucker Carlson?

  Always?

• 1:28:18Speaker 05

  Yeah, my family is.

• 1:28:22Tucker Carlson?

  How... How many refugees did you get in 48, do you know?

• 1:28:27Speaker 05

  Oh, wow, I'm not on top of the figures, but I think there were a total of, at the time, I'm not sure if they all came to Jordan, but 600,000, 700,000 total refugees at the time. Some of them went into Palestine and Syria, and a lot of them came into Jordan. So that's the total number, if I recall, if my memory serves me correctly. I'm not sure what proportion, I think the majority came into Jordan.

• 1:28:54Tucker Carlson?

  My last question is, where do you think this is all going? It seems like things are accelerating quickly, people are getting more radical. The maps are being redrawn. Huge populations are being moved around. I mean, what are we looking at here?

• 1:29:11Speaker 05

  Look, I... I'm scared for what's coming.

• 1:29:15Tucker Carlson?

  It feels like a big thing, I guess that's what I'm saying.

• 1:29:16Speaker 05

  I am scared for what's coming. There's a lot of lack of clarity. And it feels like decisions are being made in, you know, back-room doors

• 1:29:30Speaker 05

  by who knows who. So there's, honestly, I wish I, I wish I could answer that. And that's the thing is, if you want to create instability, you create insecurity, because nobody knows, you know, outcomes.

• 1:29:44Speaker 05

  I feel when it comes to Jordan, you know, we have a strong leadership here. We have strong security and defense here. We have a wise people here. I mean, you've seen, this is one of the most resilient countries, I think, in the world. I mean, who can come up and deal with the types of things that we've had to dealt with over the past couple of decades? So I think, you know, we'll find a way through it. But my concern is also for the wider region, right? At what cost? And my only concern, Dr. I mean, when you have US military intervention or any kind of military intervention, if there is a vacuum, it needs to be filled.

• 1:30:28Speaker 05

  And who's going to fill that vacuum, right? And what comes later? What comes later might be even worse than, right?

• 1:30:34Tucker Carlson?

  Well, I think we kind of know because we've had 1948. Who got hurt? Well, the Christians got hurt, a lot of Muslims got hurt too, but the Christians being a minority got hurt. Then you have Israel inspiring, pushing for the Iraq war. Christians population in the country just basically evaporates. And you have Israel pushing for the overthrow of Assad in Syria. Minority religious people get hurt, Christians, not just, Alawites, but lots of them, but they get crushed. Lebanon bombed by Israel for 40 years. Christian population diminishes. So like, I see a theme here. Do you?

• 1:31:16Speaker 05

  Yeah, there's clearly a theme.

• 1:31:17Tucker Carlson?

  Yeah.

• 1:31:18Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 1:31:18Tucker Carlson?

  And it's an anti-Christian theme.

• 1:31:22Speaker 05

  I think it is. I think it is because what it means to be Christian is, if you really think about it, you know, the most radical thing that Jesus taught us is love.

• 1:31:32Tucker Carlson?

  Yes.

• 1:31:33Speaker 05

  And if something does not stem out of love, right? Is it really Christian?

• 1:31:40Tucker Carlson?

  No.

• 1:31:42Speaker 05

  And a lot of what's happening is the furthest thing away imaginable from love that I can imagine at this stage, Tucker. So, yeah, it doesn't feel very Christian to me.

• 1:31:53Tucker Carlson?

  Good luck.

• 1:31:54Speaker 05

  Thanks.

• 1:31:54Tucker Carlson?

  Thank you.