Welcoming Heavyweight

We are thrilled to welcome the acclaimed narrative series Heavyweight to the Pushkin network. In each episode Jonathan Goldstein sets out to help someone confront their past and heal old wounds. Today we’re sharing their very first episode, “Buzz.” And because we couldn’t only pick one segment to share, here’s a list of the Revisionist History team’s favorite episodes: #2 Gregor https://open.spotify.com/episode/6LKrLVEAY3tsqHPURec6ke?si=3c9b2a6343374293 #33 Bobby https://open.spotify.com/episode/2YjgiZpS7tioIlL4y8QAA8?si=ed1b15bc3b6c4b8f #46 Dan https://open.spotify.com/episode/5XByGT2bdEpqBYiP8h3Mfc?si=ff291046703c46a0 #52 Lenny https://open.spotify.com/episode/37LqKifjaPlVCtFT3lIPOT?si=5ebe4b3ed1234e00 #40 Barbara https://open.spotify.com/episode/2BZrL9n11cbetRKfpSuAC9?si=58d791cf4c394c66 See omnystudio.com/listener https://omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:09Speaker 00

  This is Jacob Goldstein. When you're a business owner interested in expanding to new markets, there's a lot to consider and countless questions to answer before making the call. The most important one being, are you ready? That's where ChatGPT comes in. Give it a goal, add your files, and ask Chat to help you map out different scenarios for the future of your business. So when growth is on the table, you've got an expansion plan ready to implement. Get started today at ChatGPT.com.

• 0:37Malcolm Gladwell?

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• 1:14Speaker 02

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• 1:24Malcolm Gladwell?

  Hello, hello, Revisionist History listeners. We're having a very exciting week here at Pushkin. You know that I'm Canadian, right? We actually fly a big maple-y flag here at Pushkin HQ. Well, this week, we added another Canadian. The great Jonathan Goldstein, native of Quebec, has brought his acclaimed narrative series, Heavyweight, to the Pushkin network. Oh, Canada, our home and native land. True patriot love in all our hearts command.

• 1:58Malcolm Gladwell?

  Jonathan and the Heavyweight team represent everything we believe in here at Pushkin. The power of storytelling, the value of intelligence and emotion, the belief that Canadians can and should dominate all aspects of American culture. Heavyweight examines personal histories and resentments. It tries to heal old wounds and in the process reminds us of our shared humanity. Yes, it's that good. We're dropping the first ever episode here in the feed about Jonathan's quest to reconcile his father with his estranged brother Buzz. Enjoy, and there is much, much, much more to come. And if you want to listen to more Heavyweight, which I'm sure you do, check out the show notes for the Revisionist History Team's favorite episodes.

• 2:47Speaker 03

  Yeah, hello.

• 2:47Speaker 04

  From Gimlet Media, this is Jonathan Goldstein, your old pal.

• 2:52Speaker 03

  Is that what it's called, Gimlet? Gimlet Media?

• 2:55Speaker 04

  That's correct.

• 2:55Speaker 03

  It sounds like giblets, the inside of a chicken, like all the innards.

• 2:59Speaker 04

  Well, everybody loves giblets.

• 3:00Speaker 03

  Ew. Oh shit, they're my kids. Hey guys, I'm up here.

• 3:05Speaker 04

  Do you know what my new podcast is about?

• 3:07Speaker 03

  No, I don't know anything about it.

• 3:09Speaker 04

  Each week, I travel into people's pasts to help them repair something that's been troubling them.

• 3:14Speaker 03

  Mm-hmm.

• 3:15Speaker 04

  I'm sort of like a therapist.

• 3:17Speaker 03

  Like a therapist.

• 3:19Speaker 04

  So...

• 3:24Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 3:25Speaker 04

  Do you find that funny?

• 3:27Speaker 03

  I just think supportive.

• 3:28Speaker 04

  That's the laughter of support?

• 3:29Speaker 03

  I think it's great. I think it's great.

• 3:31Speaker 04

  Do you have any questions for me about what my show is and what it's going to be like?

• 3:38Speaker 03

  What's the name of your show? What's the name of your show? Yes, we're going to go now, but Jonathan's just about to tell me the name of his new show. As soon as he tells me, I'm going to bang down on him in five...

• 3:47Speaker 04

  No, no, wait.

• 3:48Speaker 03

  Do you remember when we used to do that?

• 3:49Speaker 04

  Yes, hang up the phone on each other. Okay, ready?

• 3:52Speaker 03

  Yes, yes.

• 3:53Speaker 04

  The name of the show is Heavyweight.

• 3:56Speaker 03

  Heavyweight.

• 3:57Speaker 04

  You get it?

• 3:58Speaker 03

  Two, one.

• 3:59Speaker 04

  No. Hello? Hello?

• 4:08Speaker 04

  From Gimlet Media, I'm Jonathan Goldstein, and this is Heavyweight. Today's episode, Buzz.

• 4:18Speaker 05

  Hello?

• 4:19Speaker 04

  Hey Dad.

• 4:20Speaker 05

  Hi Johnny.

• 4:21Speaker 04

  Hey, how you doing?

• 4:22Speaker 05

  Good, you?

• 4:23Speaker 04

  Good, good. Good Yom Tiv.

• 4:25Speaker 05

  Shana Tova.

• 4:27Speaker 04

  Akse Meach.

• 4:28Speaker 05

  Akse Meach. What's that mean?

• 4:30Speaker 04

  I'm not sure.

• 4:31Speaker 05

  Oh, oh.

• 4:32Speaker 04

  This is my father Buzz. I'm calling him at his home in Montreal. And the reason we're talking crazy talk is because it's Yom Kippur, the Jewish Day of Atonement, which seems as good a day as any to talk with him about forgiveness. So, I wanted to, I wanted to ask you something, and I just wanted to gauge your interest.

• 4:53Speaker 05

  Yep.

• 4:54Speaker 04

  How, how would you feel about paying your brother Sheldon a visit?

• 5:01Speaker 05

  I have no feelings, I am not really interested.

• 5:04Speaker 04

  You're not?

• 5:06Speaker 05

  No.

• 5:08Speaker 04

  My father Buzz is 80, and his brother Sheldon, his only sibling, is 85. And for the past 40 years, they've pretty much been on the outs. My father lives in Montreal, and Sheldon lives in Florida. And the last time they saw each other, over 20 years ago, was at their mother's funeral, when they had a fight over the details of the arrangements. Since then, they've hardly spoken. It worries me, because there's not a lot of time left. And I don't want my father to have regrets. When the subject of his brother comes up, as it often has over the years, my father feels competing things. He grows angry or defensive, but other times he'll become sad and remorseful.

• 5:52Speaker 04

  And it's the sorrow and the remorse that I like best, because it's these feelings that I believe speak to his better self, the self I want to encourage. I'm not surprised that you're not jumping at the idea, but I'm a little surprised that you're as against the idea.

• 6:07Speaker 05

  Yeah, time's passed. He hasn't shown much interest. So I'm respecting that and I leave him alone.

• 6:13Speaker 04

  What he did do was he called you on your 80th birthday not so long ago. And you felt good about that.

• 6:21Speaker 05

  Yeah, of course, I called him on his 80th birthday.

• 6:24Speaker 04

  This kind of tit-for-tat accounting is what always gets in the way. There's been a competition between the brothers since I was a kid. I remember how in my grandmother's small New York kitchen, Sheldon and Buzz got into an argument about who could do the most push-ups. And the next thing I knew, my father was pulling off his shirt and dropping to the kitchen floor in his undershirt. My mother, not used to seeing the sight of him, stood over my father, flapping a dish towel hysterically, while begging him, to the point of tears, to please stop. "Now you go," my father said, rising from the floor when he was done. But Sheldon shook his head with a smile. It was like he didn't even think my father was worth the effort.

• 7:06Speaker 05

  You know what it is at this point with him? I'll tell you what it is. I don't think it's even anger. He's past anger and he's past any feelings of animosity. He's past that. He just doesn't care.

• 7:17Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 7:18Speaker 05

  You know, that's apathy. I mean, sometimes at least hate or love, they're emotions. Apathy is nothing.

• 7:26Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 7:27Speaker 05

  You know what? Johnny, as a child, even when I was 10, when I was nine and eight, I was crazy about him. We had a great-- you know, I loved him. He was the older brother. He was-- hello?

• 7:40Speaker 04

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, I'm listening.

• 7:42Speaker 05

  You know, I just looked up to him. And he had all the friends. Sometimes he'd take me along with him and he was good. Somebody tried to call here, binging me here.

• 7:55Speaker 04

  Don't you see, Buzz? It's Father Time who is binging you here. And Buzz loses track of time. Air conditioners remain boxed all through July. And expired coupons from the mid-'90s make plump his wallet. So I worry he'll put off reaching out to Sheldon until it's too late.

• 8:17Speaker 04

  The most complicated question, the one I keep coming back to, is how did the bad blood begin? And there are many versions. An ill-fated trip to Montreal where Sheldon felt slighted about having to stay in my father's basement. An ill-fated trip to New York where my father felt slighted about having to stay in Sheldon's attic. Rude words spoken to each other's wives. In one version of the story, Sheldon's refusal to bring a table to my bris almost resulted in my being circumcised on an ironing board. But in the version being told today, my father was asked by Sheldon to pay more than his fair share for their mother's funeral.

• 8:54Speaker 05

  And I said, "You're always working some kind of an angle." So he got furious. He got furious. He started screaming into the phone, "Go to hell, drop dead, bah, bah, bah." That was how that ended. But I feel, he's the kind of guy that he got, he has angles like that, you know? He has angles. I always felt I was on the up and up with him, and he wasn't with me.

• 9:18Speaker 04

  If you got a stronger sense that he was interested in seeing you, then would you?

• 9:24Speaker 05

  Yes, yes.

• 9:25Speaker 04

  You would be more inclined to see him?

• 9:27Speaker 05

  I wouldn't stay at his house, though. That's out of the question.

• 9:29Speaker 04

  OK, quick sidebar. Anytime I've ever raised the prospect of visiting Sheldon, no matter how hypothetical the scenario, my father always makes a point of insisting how no matter what, he would not stay in Sheldon's house, even if he was invited to. Which, I should point out, he never is.

• 9:48Speaker 05

  I wouldn't stay at his house.

• 9:49Speaker 04

  How come you?

• 9:51Speaker 05

  I wouldn't stay there. I mean, it's not my thing to...

• 9:54Speaker 04

  How come you always bring that up? I mean, normally, when someone goes to visit someone that they haven't seen in decades, they'll stay at a hotel, you know?

• 10:03Speaker 05

  I would stay at a motel or somewhere near his place.

• 10:05Speaker 04

  A motel. Yeah, no, we'd get a place with an ice machine and, you know.

• 10:10Speaker 05

  Why, you're interested in making a trip?

• 10:15Speaker 04

  I mean, I'm interested. Do you think that there's anything to be gained in seeing him?

• 10:25Speaker 05

  Hmm.

• 10:27Speaker 05

  I guess there's something, you know, you share your common experience and you talk about the old days and there are things that only he and I can remember, you know?

• 10:38Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 10:39Speaker 05

  You know, what you could do is you could call him

• 10:43Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 10:44Speaker 05

  and see what his attitude is, you know? It depends on, you know, how you feel, what kind of reception you get.

• 10:52Speaker 04

  Yeah, I mean, I would. I would be happy to do that. My concern is that...

• 10:56Speaker 05

  I like your initial suggestion, that you call him, feel him out, and see what he's like.

• 11:02Speaker 04

  Okay, I didn't suggest that, but you suggested that.

• 11:06Speaker 05

  Yeah, I like that. Of course, you'll give me an honest reaction.

• 11:11Speaker 04

  I'm happy to do it, but, I mean, what are you looking for from... What do you want to hear from him?

• 11:19Speaker 05

  I miss my brother, I would like to see him.

• 11:21Speaker 04

  Okay.

• 11:22Speaker 05

  That's all.

• 11:24Speaker 04

  Okay.

• 11:25Speaker 05

  You understand? And you come back on me with an honest evaluation.

• 11:39Speaker 06

  Hello?

• 11:40Speaker 04

  Sheldon.

• 11:41Speaker 06

  Yes, speaking.

• 11:43Speaker 04

  Hi.

• 11:43Speaker 06

  I was quite a shock getting your phone call. You said, "John is..."

• 11:49Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 11:51Speaker 06

  My hearing is not that great.

• 11:53Speaker 04

  Okay.

• 11:53Speaker 06

  And when I heard the first message, I'm saying, "Who the heck is that? I don't know anybody by that name."

• 12:01Speaker 04

  Sheldon now lives outside of Fort Lauderdale, but my few memories of him are from when he lived in upstate New York. I remember he lived in a trailer. I remember that he worked at a local prison, that he smoked cigars, that he looked a little like my father, but was hunched, like the world was weighing down on him. And he always wore this expression on his face that seemed to say, "You gotta be kidding me." You're keeping okay, you're keeping occupied?

• 12:26Speaker 06

  Yeah, I read a lot. I go to the gym, I go shopping, you know, here and there, little things here and there.

• 12:37Speaker 04

  And so you still go, how often you go to the gym?

• 12:40Speaker 06

  Three times a week.

• 12:42Speaker 04

  Wow, and what kind of stuff do you do there?

• 12:45Speaker 06

  Well, I do about 20 minutes of aerobics.

• 12:50Speaker 04

  Uh huh.

• 12:51Speaker 06

  And then I do a little weight training. I try to flirt a little with the women there.

• 12:58Speaker 04

  Oh yeah. My father also goes to the gym. That's a part of his routine also. He was happy to hear from you on his 80th birthday.

• 13:12Speaker 06

  Yeah, well, he didn't call me on my 85th though.

• 13:18Speaker 04

  Tit meet tat. Yeah, like, so, you know, maybe we could go out for dinner, I don't know, that kind of thing.

• 13:28Speaker 06

  Uh huh. Well, what kind of a timeframe are we talking about here?

• 13:46Speaker 06

  I don't know, our lives have been much different, I don't know how much we have to have in common anymore.

• 13:55Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 13:58Speaker 06

  We don't have, we don't have much in common anymore, except the fact that we're elderly and retired. Other than that, I don't know what we have in common.

• 14:09Speaker 04

  I guess you have your past in common.

• 14:13Speaker 06

  Yes. I'll tell you honestly, I'm not a very sentimental person. And I, and I, and being a pragmatist, I take things the way they are. I try not to dwell upon the past. And I try not to take people the way I remember them, but as they are.

• 14:42Speaker 04

  Do you think that makes things easier?

• 14:46Speaker 06

  Makes things easier for me.

• 14:48Speaker 04

  Yeah. Um.

• 14:52Speaker 04

  Do, do, do other people around you sometime, does it make it harder for other people around you? Ever?

• 15:00Speaker 06

  To be honest with you, um, I've been, in the last few years, I've been a loner.

• 15:08Speaker 04

  Uh huh.

• 15:09Speaker 06

  You, you would basically almost call me a recluse. I don't socialize with many people. And, uh, I really don't give a damn what anybody thinks.

• 15:23Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 15:25Speaker 06

  And, uh, contrary to popular belief, I like being alone by myself. I get along with myself very well.

• 15:37Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 15:38Speaker 06

  Look, uh, uh, I don't wanna be rude or anything, but I wanna go have my lunch.

• 15:45Speaker 04

  Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, that's fine. It's fine. I, Sheldon, I appreciate your talking to me. And, um, you would be amenable to, um, to, to spending some time?

• 15:56Speaker 06

  Why not? Uh, we are brothers. I mean, we're not close or anything, but, uh, you know, uh, we're not gonna have a chance to see each other much in the future.

• 16:10Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 16:12Speaker 04

  Uh, is, is that, is that anything that you think about?

• 16:17Speaker 06

  Not much, no.

• 16:22Speaker 04

  And so, I call my father back and let him know that Sheldon is amenable. And because I know that for my father, the days tend to pile up like unboxed air conditioners, I have my mother get on the phone to help nail down a firm travel date.

• 16:37Speaker 03

  And daddy wants to go?

• 16:39Speaker 04

  If dad wants to go, if he wants to go.

• 16:41Speaker 03

  Does he wanna go?

• 16:42Speaker 05

  Next weekend.

• 16:44Speaker 04

  We don't have to go on the weekend, we can go during the week.

• 16:47Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 16:50Speaker 05

  Comes as, uh, you know.

• 16:54Speaker 05

  You caught me off guard.

• 16:57Speaker 05

  How about if, I'll call you Wednesday or Thursday, how's that?

• 17:02Speaker 04

  Today's Monday, or yeah, or even if you feel like calling tomorrow, you can call me.

• 17:06Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 17:08Speaker 05

  Okay, I'll probably, I'll call you the, at the latest Thursday.

• 17:13Speaker 04

  Did you get to Thursday?

• 17:15Speaker 05

  At the latest.

• 17:18Speaker 04

  That's three days from today.

• 17:19Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 17:21Speaker 04

  Okay.

• 17:22Speaker 05

  I have to think.

• 17:22Speaker 04

  All right, you do what you want to do. You call me, but.

• 17:25Speaker 05

  I'll call you Thursday.

• 17:27Speaker 04

  Coming up after the break, Thursday.

• 17:31Speaker 00

  This is Jacob Goldstein. With ChatGPT, you can do more than get answers. You can get things done. When you're running a business and looking to expand, you need a clear view of the landscape before making any decisions. ChatGPT can help you prepare. Connect your Google Drive, point to relevant files and reports, and ask it to research competitors, industry forecasts, and market signals. It can turn the findings into a strategic deck in your team's template that you can review before presenting to your leadership team. Growing a business is ambitious, and ChatGPT can help you do it with confidence. Get started today at chatgpt.com.

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• 20:19Speaker 04

  And so on Thursday, possibly with a little nudging from my mother, Buzz agrees. And then my father and I are off to Florida to visit my Uncle Sheldon.

• 20:29Speaker 07

  Press "where to" and then type. Do you have an address?

• 20:31Speaker 04

  Yeah, I do.

• 20:33Speaker 07

  Okay.

• 20:34Speaker 04

  My dad and I meet up at the Fort Lauderdale airport. I flew from New York and my dad from Montreal. My father's all dressed up, wearing a faux suede sports jacket that I've never seen him in. We grab our airport rental and prepare for the two-hour drive to Sheldon. In the 90-degree heat, it's immediately made clear that faux suede might not have been the best fashion choice.

• 20:54Speaker 07

  It's like we're on a safari.

• 20:59Speaker 04

  On the road to Sheldon's, my father will experience a spectrum of feelings. As we first set out, there's excitement.

• 21:06Speaker 07

  You know, my brother was funny in a lot of ways. I could laugh. We're gonna have laughs with him. You know what I mean? He's a very funny man.

• 21:14Speaker 04

  A half an hour in, and there's bitterness.

• 21:16Speaker 07

  We invited him to your bonbon's and he returned a very cold card. "Sorry, we will not be attending." It was, you know, so mean. You know what I mean? Even the writing.

• 21:30Speaker 04

  An hour in, and how is Buzz feeling?

• 21:33Speaker 07

  I'm relaxed.

• 21:34Speaker 04

  Oh, good.

• 21:34Speaker 07

  Kind of old to get anxious, you know what I mean?

• 21:37Speaker 04

  A half an hour to Sheldon's.

• 21:39Speaker 07

  A little bit apprehensive now.

• 21:43Speaker 04

  Yeah. Ten minutes to Sheldon's, and Buzz is feeling?

• 21:46Speaker 07

  All right.

• 21:48Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 21:50Speaker 04

  He feeling a little, uh...

• 21:51Speaker 07

  No, it's gonna be strange.

• 21:53Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 21:53Speaker 07

  It's gonna be very strange. I mean, the man is a stranger to me now, and yet he's my brother. You understand? It's a very strange feeling.

• 22:02Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 22:05Speaker 07

  I wonder if he's getting nervous.

• 22:07Speaker 04

  Maybe.

• 22:09Speaker 07

  Because he's waiting for us, right?

• 22:11Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 22:16Speaker 04

  You all set?

• 22:17Speaker 07

  Yeah.

• 22:22Speaker 07

  Ooh, it's hot.

• 22:23Speaker 04

  It's really hot, yeah. Sheldon lives in the corner house on a quiet suburban street. Ring the bell?

• 22:30Speaker 07

  I guess.

• 22:33Speaker 07

  Is this his door?

• 22:35Speaker 04

  I'll double-check.

• 22:36Speaker 07

  Maybe it's...

• 22:37Speaker 04

  Oh, there he is.

• 22:39Speaker 04

  Hey! Hi.

• 22:43Speaker 08

  This is Jonathan.

• 22:45Speaker 04

  Nice to see you. Yeah.

• 22:47Speaker 08

  Come here.

• 22:48Speaker 04

  Thank you.

• 22:50Speaker 07

  I smell a good smell of cigar.

• 22:53Speaker 08

  Yeah. Lately, I've become a monk, me and my pussycat.

• 22:58Speaker 04

  Oh, you got a cat. After all the years and the worry and the dread, things seem to be going swimmingly. We sit down at Sheldon's kitchen table, and my father gets right into it.

• 23:08Speaker 07

  Now, there's things I want to know. You said that Rainy died?

• 23:12Speaker 08

  Yeah, she did.

• 23:13Speaker 07

  She did die?

• 23:13Speaker 04

  The dead are a good place to begin. As a subject, they're easily agreed upon and not likely to spark a fight.

• 23:20Speaker 08

  My uncle died.

• 23:21Speaker 07

  My uncle died? He was the youngest brother!

• 23:24Speaker 08

  Oh, he died long ago.

• 23:26Speaker 07

  He died, eh? Oh, you know who died?

• 23:28Speaker 08

  Who?

• 23:29Speaker 04

  Hoffman.

• 23:29Speaker 08

  Hoffman! A real prick.

• 23:31Speaker 07

  Yeah, I didn't know him that well. I didn't know him, yeah, yeah.

• 23:36Speaker 08

  Knish.

• 23:37Speaker 07

  Oh, that's shocking.

• 23:39Speaker 08

  Yeah, he was fat.

• 23:40Speaker 07

  He was fat. Redhead.

• 23:41Speaker 08

  Redhead, right.

• 23:42Speaker 07

  Yeah, yeah. Knish.

• 23:46Speaker 07

  Yeah. Remember Johnny? Johnny was a sex maniac.

• 23:48Speaker 08

  Johnny, oh. He would fuck a dog on the street if he saw a dog. He'd try to fuck the dog.

• 24:00Speaker 08

  Can I get you guys a cold beer? I'd like a beer.

• 24:03Speaker 07

  Yeah, sure. Oh, a beer. Thank you.

• 24:05Speaker 04

  Even though they're in their 80s, Sheldon and Buzz still possess voices and temperament suited to shouting out Brooklyn tenement windows, while my voice...

• 24:14Speaker 07

  Yeah, sure. Oh, a beer.

• 24:16Speaker 04

  ...is best suited to asking a waitress if there'll be a sharing charge.

• 24:20Speaker 08

  I defied...

• 24:22Speaker 07

  Forgot about that, sorry.

• 24:23Speaker 04

  Case in point: this is Sheldon accidentally swiping a portable microphone receiver off the kitchen table, and me trying to smooth things over.

• 24:32Speaker 08

  Take this off, will you? It's annoying.

• 24:34Speaker 07

  No, here, just put it in your pocket there.

• 24:36Speaker 08

  Just take it off, would you please? Thank you, thank you.

• 24:40Speaker 04

  Over the next couple of days, my testes will flee like frightened cockroaches, upward, ascending to heights not seen since the bar mitzvah that Sheldon was not attending. And while we're on the subject of testes, here's Sheldon reminiscing about the time he was examined for a rupture by their family doctor.

• 25:00Speaker 08

  Me and Wally Rosen were joining the weightlifting club, say, how to be tested for a rupture. I remember he put his hand under my balls. I started laughing so hard I pissed right in his hand.

• 25:19Speaker 04

  Over the years, I've seen my father in the role of husband, uncle, and grandfather, but I've never really seen him in the role of younger brother. How odd to see it now at 80. He sits beside Sheldon with this expression I've never seen on his face. It's wide-eyed, sweet, and deferential.

• 25:40Speaker 04

  But as the day wears on, Sheldon and Buzz begin to squabble over their memories, fighting over every little detail.

• 25:47Speaker 07

  Remember the halibut we had with the hair dyer? That heavyset girl?

• 25:51Speaker 08

  It's a manicurist.

• 25:52Speaker 07

  She was a hair dyer?

• 25:53Speaker 08

  Manicurist.

• 25:55Speaker 07

  No, she was a hair dyer. Here's what happened. She went over to Irving...

• 25:58Speaker 04

  They even argue over the death of their grandmother.

• 26:00Speaker 07

  I found her body.

• 26:02Speaker 08

  I did?

• 26:03Speaker 07

  I opened the door. No, no. My mother was across the street at Greenberg.

• 26:05Speaker 08

  I remember walking in.

• 26:06Speaker 07

  I looked in on her.

• 26:07Speaker 08

  And I knew she was dead, so I saw her.

• 26:09Speaker 07

  I never saw a dead body in my life, but I knew she was dead.

• 26:14Speaker 07

  Sure.

• 26:15Speaker 04

  So wait, so you found her, or you found her?

• 26:17Speaker 07

  I remember looking in on her room to see how she do. I said it was awfully quiet.

• 26:21Speaker 08

  I found her, but let him take the credit.

• 26:23Speaker 07

  No, I'm not, it's some credit.

• 26:30Speaker 04

  The whole afternoon is like this. Every subject, even their dead grandmother, somehow becomes fodder for another pissing match. They're burning up all this time with small talk, when what they need is some big talk. In particular, they need to address a story that I know holds a great deal of meaning for my father. It took place in 1939, on the day their mother left them. I've only ever heard the story from my father, never from Sheldon. I wanted to ask, what do you remember? What's your perspective?

• 26:59Speaker 08

  All I remember at that time was when Pop was smacking her around, and she ran out in the hall and her slip.

• 27:07Speaker 07

  Fighting in the hall?

• 27:08Speaker 08

  No, he was smacking her around. She ran out.

• 27:13Speaker 07

  Yeah, so what happened the next morning?

• 27:16Speaker 08

  The next morning?

• 27:17Speaker 07

  Yeah. Look in the closet, her clothes were gone, and she left.

• 27:23Speaker 04

  What happened after this, in my father's telling, is that his mother returned soon after she left, with a policeman in tow.

• 27:30Speaker 07

  And they came back to try to get you. They wanted you to come back with them.

• 27:38Speaker 08

  And where were you?

• 27:39Speaker 07

  I was there, but they were trying to drag you out of the house.

• 27:44Speaker 08

  They weren't trying to grab you?

• 27:46Speaker 07

  No, no, I could stay with my father and grandma and all that.

• 27:50Speaker 04

  This is the point of the story for my father. It proves, once and for all, how his mother loved Sheldon more than she loved him. Sheldon didn't move out with her, and after a year, their mother returned, and together Buzz and Sheldon grew up, under the same roof, in the same bedroom, often sleeping under the same blanket, each knowing who the mother had chosen, and each having to do their best to carry on and live life with the burden of that knowledge.

• 28:28Speaker 04

  A couple of times during the day, I ask them why they haven't spoken in so long, and they both insist, maybe out of embarrassment, that they do talk, just not often. But it isn't true. In fact, my father learned of Sheldon's wife's death many years after the fact, and then, only from me. Sheldon's daughter got in touch through Facebook, and we made a phone date where she caught me up on her life and Sheldon's. And a few nights later, while over at my parents' for dinner, I told my father of his sister-in-law's death. There was a terrible look that fell across his face, one of sadness, but something else too, maybe shock, over just how far he and Sheldon had drifted.

• 29:10Speaker 04

  I found out about Judy, about her death.

• 29:15Speaker 08

  Who?

• 29:15Speaker 04

  Your wife.

• 29:17Speaker 08

  I didn't know about it either until you told me.

• 29:19Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 29:20Speaker 08

  Didn't I tell you?

• 29:22Speaker 04

  Nope.

• 29:23Speaker 08

  You didn't know about it, no?

• 29:25Speaker 04

  We didn't know. We didn't know.

• 29:30Speaker 08

  She was sick about two years, Judy.

• 29:35Speaker 04

  Too bad.

• 29:36Speaker 08

  Well, when she got the diagnosis, she was already stage four.

• 29:44Speaker 08

  What did I know about cancer? So the surgeon, so I says, "Well, doc, how did the surgery go?" "Oh, he said it went very well." "What?" "The cancer's in her liver now."

• 29:59Speaker 04

  Oh, it's spread.

• 30:01Speaker 08

  I said, "It's in her liver." I said, "What?"

• 30:06Speaker 08

  And on top of that, I'm driving home. I'm all fucked up and I'm spaced out, and my driver window's open, and some kids pull up alongside me and flip a lit cigarette into my car.

• 30:31Speaker 08

  You know where I usually eat? Where I come in by myself, by the bar. They got a waitress there who always waits on me.

• 30:40Speaker 08

  She takes good care of me.

• 30:41Speaker 04

  For dinner, Sheldon takes us to a local Outback Steakhouse. As people walk by, he provides a running commentary of an elderly couple.

• 30:50Speaker 08

  Don't get like that couple, whatever you did. It's time for the execution.

• 30:55Speaker 04

  Of an overweight couple.

• 30:57Speaker 08

  Oh, they're fat.

• 31:00Speaker 08

  People are fat today.

• 31:02Speaker 04

  It's as though he's sharpening his whip, readying it for the main event, teasing my dad about Canada.

• 31:09Speaker 08

  I don't know how you could take Canada when you're around.

• 31:12Speaker 07

  Why? Because we got nice neighbors. It's nice. It's okay. Uh, what was I gonna say?

• 31:18Speaker 08

  You're living in the same place for how many years?

• 31:21Speaker 07

  Oh, about, uh, over thirty-five, thirty-eight years, something like that. I'm happy here. Yeah, yeah.

• 31:28Speaker 04

  For my father, I know this is a touchy subject, believing as he always has that Sheldon looks down on him for the dinkiness of his Canadian life and home. It's like a constant reminder of just who is second best. Later, my father will repeat Sheldon's words. "You're still living in that same place?" he'll say. "For how many years?" But just then, I watch my father clench and unclench his jaw as he does when he is brooding. I know he's trying to take the high road, trying not to ruin the evening.

• 31:59Speaker 08

  What, $230.30? I ain't kidding.

• 32:04Speaker 04

  Sheldon invites us back to his place for cookies, but my father says he isn't up for it.

• 32:18Speaker 04

  As we walk through the restaurant parking lot to the car, my father is silent. I find myself feeling protective of him. After midnight, lying awake in our hotel, my father insisted we stay at one. I lay in bed, thinking about that day in 1939, when my grandmother came back for Sheldon, not my father. For my father, not only did it push him away from Sheldon, making him feel jealous and resentful, but it also cast a shadow over the rest of his life, causing him to always feel passed over. He's mellowed with age, but as a kid, I saw it come out in all kinds of ways. Always sensitive to slights, ready for a fight at the smallest perceived defense. I wonder if there's a different way for my father to see things. If there is,

• 33:02Speaker 04

  the only living person in this world who can help is Sheldon. When their mom left, Sheldon was nine, my father, five. Sheldon would have understood a lot more than my father.

• 33:15Speaker 04

  Yesterday Buzz and Sheldon talked like a couple of kids who used to play stickball in the old neighborhood. Today, if me and my big fat meddling yap have any sway, they'll have a chance to talk as men, as brothers even. Because if not now, when?

• 33:35Speaker 04

  Day two.

• 33:37Speaker 07

  This is a damn good cigar.

• 33:38Speaker 08

  He sent me.

• 33:39Speaker 07

  Oh, Dominican Republic. They make a damn good cigar in Dominican Republic.

• 33:43Speaker 04

  Despite the difficulties of last night, the coin has flipped back to the good side. Sheldon offers my father a cigar. And with the cigar, some cigar talk. Some pretty foul cigar talk.

• 33:55Speaker 08

  We're riding on Queens Boulevard. Johnny's in the backseat with the whore. He's got his naked ass up in the air. And he's humping. The funny thing is, we had to stop for a light. And there's a truck driver sitting in the cab up high. He looked at the car, it was funny.

• 34:19Speaker 04

  Have you guys missed each other?

• 34:21Speaker 08

  What?

• 34:22Speaker 04

  Do you miss each other?

• 34:25Speaker 08

  You know, he asks the weirdest questions. What is he, abroad?

• 34:31Speaker 04

  No, I mean, I don't know, that's, you know. Eager to prove to my Uncle Sheldon that in spite of the fact I'm wearing my wife's travel deodorant, I am indeed not abroad, I allow them to return to more pressing matters: their prostates.

• 34:45Speaker 08

  The guy says, Jesus, he says, your prostate feels like the moon crater's in there. He said, I said, "Thank you, doctor." He was complimenting me.

• 34:56Speaker 04

  So if I could steer this away from the prostates, so my father said that it's significant to him to have come, what do you say?

• 35:03Speaker 08

  I agree with whatever he said.

• 35:06Speaker 04

  But what about you?

• 35:07Speaker 08

  I said, "I agree with whatever he said." Do you want a written contract?

• 35:12Speaker 04

  No, I'm happy for that. It feels like I'm getting a taste of what growing up with Sheldon might have been like. So again, I make my move. So I have some questions, just about, because there's stories that I know from my father, but I'm curious what your take is, because you were older. Do you remember what was going on when your mom, when your mother left originally? Like, what, why, and what was going on?

• 35:43Speaker 08

  Didn't you cover this ground before yesterday?

• 35:47Speaker 04

  But from my father's perspective, the way I understood it was always you were the favorite. Did you, did you feel that way? At this point, Sheldon's face suddenly softens.

• 35:58Speaker 08

  I always felt that I got the short end of the stick.

• 36:01Speaker 04

  Yeah, but you were, you were a kind of a favorite with my mom.

• 36:06Speaker 08

  Yeah, maybe with mom, because maybe temperamentally we were closer than I was with my father. My father never gave me spit. Did you ever get any money from my father?

• 36:22Speaker 04

  Can't remember.

• 36:23Speaker 08

  You never got a dime?

• 36:25Speaker 04

  No, can't remember.

• 36:26Speaker 08

  You never, one time I sprained my ankle so bad.

• 36:30Speaker 04

  I'll never forget that. That was terrible.

• 36:32Speaker 08

  I laid in that bed, my aunt, and she says to me, "You lazy bum."

• 36:38Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 36:39Speaker 08

  Man, he went off on me that time.

• 36:43Speaker 07

  He took Sheldon once. Sheldon happened to say the word "fuck."

• 36:49Speaker 08

  He came in with that fucking strap swinging. With the buckle.

• 36:54Speaker 07

  And you know, I can understand it leaving a feeling of resentment and dislike.

• 36:59Speaker 08

  He, that was his way of communicating with us. Smack, smack and then...

• 37:08Speaker 07

  What a way.

• 37:09Speaker 04

  Was he easier on you, you think?

• 37:12Speaker 07

  Uh, it wasn't that easy, but he was tough on Sheldon, wasn't he?

• 37:16Speaker 08

  I know you were closer to him than I was. A lot of things that went on, you didn't understand really what was going on.

• 37:26Speaker 07

  So you had a different take?

• 37:27Speaker 04

  Why, are you surprised by...

• 37:29Speaker 07

  But I was a kid, I didn't understand it.

• 37:31Speaker 04

  Well, you didn't know that Sheldon was getting it so bad?

• 37:35Speaker 07

  No.

• 37:37Speaker 04

  In Buzz's telling, their father was always a more or less benign childish figure, incapable of expressing his feelings, and so, given to temper tantrums. For Buzz, it was their mother who was the manipulator, the woman who played the brothers off each other. But hearing Sheldon's take, it sounds like maybe their mother didn't come to take Sheldon because she loved him best, but simply because he needed more protecting from their father.

• 38:09Speaker 04

  For the first time during our trip, I can see my father considering Sheldon's point of view, actually taking it in. I know it's intense for him, because he can't even meet Sheldon's eyes. Instead, he looks at me, addresses his comments to me.

• 38:25Speaker 07

  You know, it's sad that my father had such a negative impact on him, you know? Just awful. Because he had so much going for him. He was a wonderful son. He worked hard. He was a good boy.

• 38:38Speaker 08

  You're talking like I'm a failure in life.

• 38:41Speaker 07

  No, you weren't a failure. That's the thing that I'm saying. You weren't a failure, but all I'm saying is that emotionally, he left an impact on you.

• 38:49Speaker 08

  It took a long time for me to get out of that emotion. And now, I'm at peace with myself. I can talk about him and laugh about it. Now I want peace, quiet. I'm happy living by myself.

• 39:11Speaker 07

  Are you lonely, Sheldon?

• 39:13Speaker 08

  No.

• 39:19Speaker 04

  The last time my father saw my grandfather in full health, my dad was visiting from Canada. My grandfather asked my father to drive him to the cemetery to visit his parents' grave. And once there, my grandfather wept inconsolably. Later that day, he would succumb to a stroke and shortly after be moved to a nursing home. With Sheldon being more local, the burden of my grandfather's care fell mainly to Sheldon. It seems like a lot of the family's burdens fell to Sheldon.

• 39:48Speaker 07

  They put a lot of the responsibility on him that my dad should have been taking that responsibility. And he shouldered that.

• 39:56Speaker 08

  Who was gonna take care of you? Who was gonna take you to school? Meet you? I remember one time I was late or something. You stood outside that school. You were crying. I said, "Buzzy, I'm here, I'm here."

• 40:12Speaker 07

  He was good to me.

• 40:14Speaker 08

  A lot of times I was mean to you.

• 40:15Speaker 07

  Mean, you know. You were my older brother. You used to knock the shit out of me sometimes. But, you know, that's the way it is with brothers.

• 40:24Speaker 08

  Well, I was good in some ways. Some ways I was mean.

• 40:29Speaker 07

  Who was not? Who was not?

• 40:33Speaker 04

  So if you feel like you were compelled to see each other now because you knew that, you know, it's now or never kind of thing, then it means that it was important to you both, right? To see each other?

• 40:48Speaker 08

  You wanna take that from that?

• 40:49Speaker 07

  Sure, yes. Easy answer, yes.

• 40:53Speaker 07

  Yes, because we're not getting any younger. What's down the road? I'm 80, he's 85.

• 41:01Speaker 07

  I mean, because there was a lot of water under the bridge and we want to close that bridge now. I want to feel easy now. I want to say now, he's gonna be 86, I want to call him on his birthday and say happy birthday to him now. I'm not gonna stand in any fucking ceremonies anymore.

• 41:15Speaker 04

  As my father speaks, as per his brother's example, dropping F-bombs like he's in a Guy Ritchie film, Sheldon keeps his arms crossed and his eyes shut tight. He's quiet for several seconds, and then he reaches out to pet his cat.

• 41:29Speaker 08

  Should I leave you the cat in my will if anything happens?

• 41:33Speaker 07

  If anything happens, I'll take care of the cat. I'll take care of the cat. I'm happy I came to see you, that I am.

• 41:41Speaker 08

  I'm happy you came here. That's good, very good.

• 41:48Speaker 08

  If I ever want to buy a house, that one is for sale.

• 41:53Speaker 04

  When it's time to leave, Sheldon walks us outside, but before we get into the rental, he points across the lawn to his neighbor's house. He tells my father that it's for sale, and then he tells him the asking price, and my father says, "That doesn't sound bad at all." And Sheldon says that, "What with Canada being so bloody cold, my father should consider moving to Florida." And my father says, "Maybe he will." They don't get too emotional, they don't even hug goodbye, they just shake hands. And with that, it feels like Buzz has forgiven Sheldon, and Sheldon has forgiven Buzz.

• 42:28Speaker 07

  All right, you take care.

• 42:29Speaker 08

  Water under the bridge.

• 42:30Speaker 07

  Thank you.

• 42:31Speaker 08

  Take care, you too.

• 42:32Speaker 07

  Okay.

• 42:33Speaker 08

  Safe trip, both of yous.

• 42:34Speaker 07

  Thank you. Yeah. Thank you. We'll speak, we'll speak.

• 42:48Speaker 07

  Oh my God, it feels so different now. You know that? This is taking a lot off my shoulders, I, uh... You know?

• 42:59Speaker 04

  As we ride to the airport, my father says that the thought of Sheldon all alone in that house with just a cat makes him sad. "Do you really think he isn't lonely?" my father asks. I assure him that Sheldon seems OK with being alone, but my father doesn't seem so sure. After all these years, the burden of having lost his brother has been replaced by a new burden, one that might be heavier to bear.

• 44:39Speaker 04

  Heavyweight is hosted and produced by me, Jonathan Goldstein. This episode was also produced by Wendy Dorr, Chris Neary, and Kalila Holt. Editing by Alex Blumberg and Peter Clowney. Special thanks to Caitlin Kenny, Starlee Kine, and Rachel Ward. The show was mixed by Haley Shaw. Music in this episode by Christine Fellows, with additional music and ad music by Haley Shaw. Our theme song is by The Weaker Than's, courtesy of Epitaph Records. A version of this story appeared on This American Life, and we had a lot of help from the folks there: Ira Glass, Julie Snyder, Jonathan Menjivar, Sean Cole, and Robyn Semien. A very special thanks to Emily Condon. Follow us on Twitter at @Heavyweight. We'll have a new episode next week.

• 45:30Speaker 08

  We used to call him Mitchy Little Bitchy.

• 45:33Speaker 07

  Yeah, remember the older brother, the oldest one? He was comical.

• 45:36Speaker 08

  Hey, we're lucky we turned out as good as we did.

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• 46:18Speaker 02

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• 47:13Malcolm Gladwell?

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• 47:16Speaker 09

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