Meera Sodha

It’s a foodie dream today with our next guest, chef and entrepreneur Meera Sodha. Author of the new vegetarian & vegan cookbook ‘Dinner’, Meera joined us for lunch bringing an absolutely delicious freshly baked honey cake with her! We discovered that Meera learned to cook from her lovely mum who grew up in Uganda, how she became a columnist for the Guardian magazine, her varied (and wild!) past careers, setting up her own dating agency 'Fancy an Indian?’(!), how she started writing cookbooks with the help of a smoothie company, and the fabulous story of how she met her husband (it’s like a Netflix romcom). Plus, she really gives Nigel Slater a run for his money with her incredible ways of describing food. Meera’s new vegan and vegetarian cookbook ‘Dinner’ is available to buy now. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy https://acast.com/privacy for more information.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

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• 2:00Speaker 03

  Darling, have you got your tickets yet for our extra special Christmas extravaganza at the Union Chapel on Monday, the 2nd of December?

• 2:12Jessie Ware?

  We are doing a special Choose Love Table Manners episode, live from the Union Chapel, with Dorno Porter and Chris O'Dowd. It's for a really good cause. Choose Love do incredible work for displaced people all around the world, and we're thrilled to be partnering with them this Christmas for a special Christmas bonanza. Expect, if you've been to our live shows before, maybe mum will be bringing some chicken soup. We may have to resurrect the chicken superfan and invite you all on stage. It's extra special because Union Chapel is really intimate, so we can get up close and personal. You can ask Lenny all about her last leopard print purchase. But above all, this is for a great cause. We would love to see you there next Monday.

• 2:49Speaker 03

  Don't miss out, it's going to be such fun.

• 2:52Jessie Ware?

  Check our Table Manners Instagram bio and Choose Love's bio for tickets.

• 2:59Jessie Ware?

  Hello and welcome to Table Manners. I'm Jessie Ware and I'm here with my mum in my kitchen. It is a beautiful autumn day. The parakeets are, I don't know, parakeeting?

• 3:09Speaker 03

  Parakeeting, yeah.

• 3:09Jessie Ware?

  Outside. It's a blue sky, but it was like 3 degrees this morning.

• 3:14Speaker 03

  So cold.

• 3:16Jessie Ware?

  Very cold. Well, now my kitchen is like a greenhouse.

• 3:20Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 3:20Jessie Ware?

  So, and I have direct sunshine in my eyes, so, but it's lovely, it's lovely.

• 3:24Speaker 03

  Okay.

• 3:26Jessie Ware?

  I've been on cooking duty.

• 3:28Speaker 03

  Oh, you've excelled yourself.

• 3:29Jessie Ware?

  I don't know if I have.

• 3:30Speaker 03

  I think you have.

• 3:31Jessie Ware?

  We have a vegetarian on, who probably has one of the leading vegan, is it still only vegan?

• 3:39Speaker 03

  She's such a good vegetarian cook. She writes in The Guardian.

• 3:42Jessie Ware?

  Yes, but like, her whole thing was that she has a vegan column.

• 3:45Speaker 03

  Yeah, it's his vegan.

• 3:46Jessie Ware?

  Mirasoda's coming on the podcast. My brother cooks mirasoda recipes the whole time.

• 3:52Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 3:53Jessie Ware?

  Salsa verde beans.

• 3:57Jessie Ware?

  That's Mira. And we've got her coming on to talk about her new cookbook Dinner, which is a hundred and twenty recipes of vegan and vegetarian food. And I'm cooking, I'm on cooking duties. So I

• 4:10Speaker 03

  You've prepped.

• 4:11Jessie Ware?

  I've prepped like a motherfucker.

• 4:13Speaker 03

  The prep queen today.

• 4:15Jessie Ware?

  I'm still waiting to put in the main event, which, I mean, it could go one way or the other. I have made, if you've listened to the Jamie Demetriu episode, I made a savoury galette. And that was like a butternut squash and cider onion and cheddar cheese one. I haven't done that. But I've done some, I remember it being quite nice. So I've kind of improvised, it's pumpkin season. And so I've used one of the most delicious Natura de Lisa pumpkins, and I've roasted them. And I pureed the pumpkin flesh, because it has the green outside, so that would have made it look really ugly.

• 4:56Jessie Ware?

  And then I got pre-rolled short crust pastry, which actually came in a circle, which was brilliant as well, thank you. And so I've put the base as the pumpkin puree, much like if you were doing a pizza, like tomato base. And I've left a bit of space around the edge, because what you do is you kind of create a crust by kind of folding it into itself. It's supposed to be very rustic, my kind of cooking. And then I've caramelised some red onions, which I did with some sherry vinegar as well to kind of add a little, and then goat's cheese. And then I've got some hazelnuts that I've crushed up that I toasted, and I've fried some sage. And I'm going to put them on near the end, because otherwise they'll kind of burn. And then I've done it with a herb salad

• 5:39Jessie Ware?

  of tarragon, chives, dill, parsley. And then I've done, it's a Sophie Wybur recipe from Mob. So it's these harissa honey carrots and chickpeas that you do with whip feta. So I've done that. And then

• 5:55Speaker 03

  Have you been whipping your feta?

• 5:56Jessie Ware?

  Yeah, but it makes it sound like it's really hard. It's such a great cheat, isn't it? But it looks very sexy.

• 6:02Speaker 03

  And it tastes great.

• 6:03Jessie Ware?

  Yeah. And then for pudding, I have done Ravneet Gill's. Uh, it's called Baking for Pleasure, her cookbook. And I did her brown sugar meringues. I've never made meringues before in my life. These.

• 6:20Speaker 03

  Are you feeling pretty smug?

• 6:21Jessie Ware?

  I'm feeling so smug.

• 6:23Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 6:24Jessie Ware?

  I'm feeling like I could walk into an Ottolenghi. And say, hey, I see your gigantic delicious meringues and I raise you.

• 6:33Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 6:34Jessie Ware?

  The Ravneet Gill brown sugar meringue. And then the genius thing of this is that you do a kind of coffee cream. So you just do some granulated instant coffee, put some sugar in that with a bit of water. And you pour that into mascarpone and then you add a double cream. And then you whip it and it's so banging. It's like tiramisu, it's delicious. And then I've done some cherries, frozen cherries with some sugar that you're going to put on top. And then I'm going to grate some dark chocolate. We were talking about Black Forest Gattos last week and it's almost like a Black Forest Gatto meringue.

• 7:11Speaker 03

  Those tin cherries were not great.

• 7:12Jessie Ware?

  The tin cherries were awful. I recommend no one ever buying the tin cherries and always just go for the frozen cherries. And then add some sugar. So I think it should be quite nice. I'm a bit worried that I'm going to have a soggy bottom with the galette. So yeah, we've got Mira Sodhi coming up to eat a delicious vegetarian lunch. And to talk all things Guardian column and dinner, the cookbook.

• 7:53Jessie Ware?

  Mira Sodhi, you've just joined us, not only with a beautiful bunch of flowers, shabli, my fave. And also a honey cake, which is outrageous that you have the time to do that. Cause I swear you're on the move at the moment and you're just so thoughtful. So cheers. Thank you so much.

• 8:08Speaker 05

  For having me.

• 8:09Speaker 03

  Yeah, cheers.

• 8:11Jessie Ware?

  They're all drinking at lunchtime.

• 8:13Speaker 03

  I'm so happy. But it feels like late for me.

• 8:16Jessie Ware?

  Because we did morning breakfast radio this morning.

• 8:19Speaker 05

  Oh, did you? Okay. Well, yeah. Did you have to be up really early for that? Unreal.

• 8:24Speaker 03

  I'm just not as good as I used to be at getting up early.

• 8:28Jessie Ware?

  Because you're a diva now.

• 8:29Speaker 03

  No, because I'm old.

• 8:30Jessie Ware?

  Um, but I mean, you must be up in the morning anyway because you have kids. How many kids do you have?

• 8:35Speaker 05

  Two and they're they're pretty good. I have to wake them up in the morning and I'm not saying like I'm not saying they're great at everything.

• 8:41Speaker 03

  God, are they teenagers?

• 8:42Speaker 05

  No, I know that. I think one of them's like four, but going on like fourteen.

• 8:47Jessie Ware?

  Got it. I've got a three-nager in the other room at the moment. Yeah.

• 8:50Speaker 03

  A three-nager.

• 8:51Jessie Ware?

  Yeah. I'm gonna be just busy-ing. Actually, can I ask your opinion? Because I've made a vegetarian. You are vegetarian, not vegan.

• 8:58Speaker 05

  Not vegan, correct.

• 8:59Jessie Ware?

  Thank God. Okay, fine. Because I just put goat's cheese on the thing. So I've made galettes. A galette, pumpkin, onions, goat's cheese. I've kind of pureed the pumpkin. But I think that the delisa pumpkins look so nice. Do you say delisa? Is it delic?

• 9:15Speaker 05

  I don't know. I say delic, but I don't know.

• 9:19Jessie Ware?

  I don't know either.

• 9:20Speaker 05

  From Sicily, aren't they?

• 9:21Jessie Ware?

  Don't you know?

• 9:22Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 9:22Jessie Ware?

  Okay, I'm gonna go delic.

• 9:24Speaker 03

  Sicily.

• 9:24Speaker 05

  I think so. I think they all come from Sicily and they cure them, don't they?

• 9:28Jessie Ware?

  I don't know. Tell me more.

• 9:30Speaker 05

  Like magical wax. Do you have to peel off a wax?

• 9:32Jessie Ware?

  It's so romantic.

• 9:34Speaker 05

  There's such a magnificently special pumpkin that they have to stamp it.

• 9:37Jessie Ware?

  Basically, I pureed some of the flesh, but I was gonna put some more on top. But do you think that is pumpkin overload? If you've already got the puree?

• 9:45Speaker 05

  I don't think so. It like it could be a nice textural situation.

• 9:50Jessie Ware?

  You just chat about.

• 9:51Speaker 03

  So where did you learn to cook?

• 9:53Speaker 05

  I mean, my mum is an amazing cook and I didn't learn how to cook when I was a kid. Because I was like semi a brat and sort of took it for granted that she was incredible. But also she used to kick me out of the kitchen and say, go and do your homework. You know, I want you to become a doctor. And she wanted like that sort of safety and security for me. And so I went to university and. Not knowing how to cook until I got homesick. And I was out one night with some friends and they, we were in a curry house on Brick Lane and they said, oh, what should we order from the menu? And I said, well, this isn't the food that I grew up eating.

• 10:33Speaker 05

  Um, this like baby puree corn, but I didn't realise that people didn't know that. It was like nothing like the Gujarati gorgeous, like vegetarian.

• 10:40Jessie Ware?

  So where are you, what's your heritage?

• 10:42Speaker 05

  Gujarati. So Gujarat's on the west coast of India.

• 10:46Jessie Ware?

  Yeah.

• 10:46Speaker 05

  And it's a state that's got the population like roughly a similar sized population to the, to the UK. So about sixty, six million or so, you know, something like that. And so it's not small and it is predominantly vegetarian because in, I think it's about two hundred and fifty B C, there was an emperor called Ashoka. And after a particularly bloody war, he said, no more blood must be spilled.

• 11:11Jessie Ware?

  Okay.

• 11:11Speaker 05

  And.

• 11:11Jessie Ware?

  It will be veggies.

• 11:12Speaker 05

  Yes, exactly. And then there's this principle of ahimsa, which is Buddhist, which is also kind of no harm, must be done to people. And, and so traditionally Hindus are quite like peace loving.

• 11:24Jessie Ware?

  Yeah.

• 11:24Speaker 05

  You know, and so the, you know, the cuisine is centuries old. This way of, and, and so when, when people were starting to talk about plant based food and getting vegan, getting vegetarian, here and it feeling like a trend. I mean, we're talking, there's so many bits of the world that have been eating vegan vegetarian food for thousands of years.

• 11:43Jessie Ware?

  This brings us on to your column. How long have you been the vegan columnist for The Guardian?

• 11:48Speaker 05

  Um, seven and a half going on eight years and I didn't think I'd last beyond a couple of weeks.

• 11:53Jessie Ware?

  Am I right in thinking you weren't vegan at the time when you started to do the column?

• 11:57Speaker 05

  Yeah, I wasn't vegan and I'm still not vegan, but I love vegetables and I love animals predominantly when they're alive. And so those two things kind of propelled me forward. But what happened was, I got a phone call out of the blue one day from Melissa Deans, who was like the editor of the then Guardian Weekend magazine. She loved Fresh India, my second book, which is all vegetarian and said, oh, we, you know, cook loads of dishes out there. It, there's loads of vegan dishes. Would you consider heading up this column? And I should have said no, because, you know, I wasn't vegan and I also had a four month. Baby at the time, but I could see friends of mine struggling all around me to try and figure out like the western plates made up of like a big slab of meat in the middle of it and vegetables

• 12:38Speaker 05

  on the side. And they, I could tell that, you know, they didn't really know exactly what to cook. And I felt like I could add to the conversation because I'd grown up eating like vegetarian food and, and absolutely loving it. And I thought, you know, if I looked east towards, like beyond India, towards Thailand and Vietnam, that I'd find examples of like other cultures and cuisines that put vegetables in the centre of the table. And there are so many of them. Like if you look at Thailand, like there's like 95% of Thailand or Thai people are Buddhist. And

• 13:11Jessie Ware?

  I didn't know that.

• 13:13Speaker 05

  Yes, they do eat meat, but like it's not like a primary, the, the cuisine's evolved without it being a primary ingredient. And so typically, like, like, if you think about a sometimes salad, you can take a little bit of meat out with no like real rupture to the recipe. It's still going to be absolutely delicious.

• 13:29Jessie Ware?

  But how would you replace like the fish sauce?

• 13:32Speaker 05

  So you can get like vegan fish sauce. It's really good.

• 13:34Jessie Ware?

  Oh, really?

• 13:34Speaker 05

  Yeah, Thai Taste make a really good one. And I think it's made with It's called nong pla. So nong pla you can make with fish sauce. Yeah. And I think they make the fish sauce with seaweed because it's kind of got that Okay, it's that salty. Salty, umami thing going on.

• 13:49Jessie Ware?

  Mm hmm. My daughter in the last week has said, I like chickens, mum. I want to be a vegetarian. I said, that's absolutely fine, darling, but you need to eat a few more vegetables, I think, if we're going to do this. How do your children eat? Do they eat well?

• 14:03Speaker 05

  They're all right. I think they haven't always eaten well.

• 14:06Jessie Ware?

  Yeah.

• 14:06Speaker 05

  So Aria, my eldest, used to come home and just demand like buttered pasta most nights. And then she's self elected to become a vegetarian. I think they're like, you know, she's like part of like the eco council at school and Eco council. She's got, I know, they've got like, she's got a thousand teddy bears in her room. Like she really loves animals and just didn't want to eat them. And I said exactly the same thing. You're going to have to eat loads of vegetables. So we kind of started just taking them off one by one. And I think there's just something about like having a bit more agency and or say in what she wants to do. And she just has started eating load tons more vegetables now. And it's been the most incredible journey because before she wouldn't like touch. You know, whatever we put in front of her and she wouldn't try it, but she wants like,

• 14:50Speaker 05

  she's desperate to be vegetarian. And the other one, Yogi, just kind of fell out of the womb, just putting everything she could in her mouth. And it's not fussy at all. She's like a self-elected flexitarian and God knows where she's got that from, because it wasn't me.

• 15:03Speaker 03

  How old is she?

• 15:03Speaker 05

  If there's a sausage going, she'll definitely eat it.

• 15:05Speaker 03

  She the four-year-old?

• 15:06Speaker 05

  That was, yeah, yeah.

• 15:08Speaker 03

  Do you cook meat for them?

• 15:09Speaker 05

  I don't know, but he, he's, he's like the only proper carnivore in our family. And so he-

• 15:15Speaker 03

  That's your husband?

• 15:16Speaker 05

  Yes.

• 15:16Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 15:17Speaker 05

  And so he'll like occasionally cook some sausages or like roast a chicken alongside what I'm doing and so that we can all eat together.

• 15:23Speaker 03

  And you don't mind?

• 15:25Speaker 05

  No, I don't mind because I, like, I mostly ate vegetarian food growing up. But when my grandfather moved over to Uganda, he started hunting antelope and baking them in, in like an oven dug out of the earth. And so I'm used to eating meat. I just don't eat that much of it. I don't cook it at home.

• 15:41Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 15:42Speaker 05

  Yeah. And I've got like a real weak spot for prawns myself, so.

• 15:45Speaker 03

  Oh, have you? Do you still eat them?

• 15:47Speaker 05

  I do, because I'm not, you know, as I say, I'm a pescatarian, but it's just this kind of problem with needing to label yourself, because really I don't, 95% of what I eat comes from plants. But food isn't just fuel. It's, it's also history, nostalgia, pleasure, tradition.

• 16:05Speaker 03

  That's our whole podcast.

• 16:06Speaker 05

  Is it? Yeah, well, there, yeah.

• 16:08Speaker 03

  Where were you brought up?

• 16:10Speaker 05

  Um, so I was born in Scumthorpe, of all places, I know.

• 16:13Speaker 03

  You haven't got the accent.

• 16:15Speaker 05

  Well, because my parents are from Uganda and I went to school in Hull. And I don't think, you can only tell on certain words like bath and grass. And I can't get rid of that A.

• 16:26Speaker 03

  Do your family still live there?

• 16:27Speaker 05

  Yeah, they still live there in a little village in Lincolnshire. And behind their house is a potato factory and there's like pinks all around. And yeah, they're still there. And there's a very small Indian community there. There's not that many. But my, when my grandfather came into this country, he met someone at a desk, you know, like they were part of the exodus in 1972, where like 28,000 Ugandan nations came over. And he was such a proud man and he said, oh, I don't want to take handouts from the British government. And so tell me where I can get a job. And the person on the other side of the desk said, oh, here they're looking for lorry drivers at Scunthorpe Steelwork. So we ended up in Scunthorpe of all places. So we were the only Indians in the village. And it was great though.

• 17:10Speaker 03

  Were they nice? Were people nice to you?

• 17:12Speaker 05

  Honestly, I mean, I never had a problem at all. I just, I mean, I think the only thing that it probably did for me was I was the one saying, oh, I don't want to go to school smelling of curry and fried onions. And, and so I didn't want curry for dinner. I really wanted.

• 17:30Speaker 03

  That's what Nisha Katona said.

• 17:32Speaker 05

  Did she? I wanted like spaghetti hoops on toast or wanted to go to pizza.

• 17:36Speaker 03

  Exactly what she said. She did. And when friends came back for dinner, they were expecting, or they came back for tea after school, they're expecting Indian food. And she'd say, give them mac and chips.

• 17:47Speaker 05

  Yeah. I mean, it was amazing from a food point of view because Lincolnshire is where like a lot of our produce grows. You know, they used to have like loads of potatoes. Like they used to have special railways that would carry them like from Lincolnshire to London for the markets. And Gujarati potato curry is like famous, but so we ate a lot of potatoes when I was growing up and like loads of cabbage and all of that.

• 18:10Speaker 03

  What do your parents do?

• 18:11Speaker 05

  So mum, she had a newsagent when I was growing up and helped dad. And he is a financial advisor. So he's still working. And so, you know, things to do with like pensions and insurance and.

• 18:23Speaker 03

  But very aspirational for you.

• 18:25Speaker 05

  Yeah, really. I would say so. I think they really wanted to make a good life. My, I mean, they were, they came into this country, they'd had everything taken from them. My grandfather was really wealthy in Uganda. He was self-made. He like set up the first Coca-Cola bottling factory, one of the first printing presses in Uganda. He was in business with the Tilda family when they were like doing orange juice and not rice.

• 18:49Speaker 03

  Wow. Funny. Was that in Uganda?

• 18:51Speaker 05

  That was in Uganda.

• 18:53Speaker 03

  So Tilda from Uganda.

• 18:54Speaker 05

  They are. Yeah. So it was just all sorts of strange coming over to the UK because they were. Pretty poor and my parents lived in that estate that was notorious on that Channel Four documentary called Skint, you know, the one. And so they in, they just became very thrifty. I mean, they ate curried baked beans and cabbage curry for days. And, and I think I really love that because I feel like the way that my mum cooked, it was very much about very cheap store cupboard cooking.

• 19:24Jessie Ware?

  Hmm.

• 19:24Speaker 05

  Lentils, beans all, you know, cooked from scratch. But then she'd take whatever was in the fields around us, ended up in the green groves or given to us by neighbours, like whether it was marrows or like a brace of pheasants. I mean, anything really, uh, leeks, kale. I mean, whatever grew, she would just curry it. She was also really curious, which I love, like super passionate. So we'd like pirouette around the markets and she'd say, make sure you look for the aubergines with the bright green tops because they're fresh. And so I really learnt from her like how to pick ve- like good quality vegetables.

• 19:56Jessie Ware?

  Yeah.

• 19:56Speaker 05

  But so, yeah, my memories of home were kind of her making this incredible food, this like the smell of basmati steaming and dal, like my favourite, favourite dal.

• 20:05Jessie Ware?

  Which is your favourite dal?

• 20:06Speaker 05

  I mean, it's, it's called a daily dal and it's in Made in India. And I love that. I mean, I love many dals, many dals in my heart now. But that was one of my, that was my favourite growing up. Masala omelets on Sundays.

• 20:18Jessie Ware?

  Yum.

• 20:19Speaker 05

  Yeah, dad putting Elvis on, um, on the record player or Latte Mangeshka playing and chai. I mean, it was gorgeous.

• 20:26Speaker 03

  So what's the basis of your curries or your mum's curries? Is it onions, tomatoes, garlic and?

• 20:33Speaker 05

  Yeah, well, it's.

• 20:34Jessie Ware?

  Which spices would you not be able to do a curry without?

• 20:37Speaker 05

  Okay, so.

• 20:38Jessie Ware?

  Or family curry.

• 20:39Speaker 05

  Typical Gujarati spicing, you're looking at equal parts ground.

• 20:43Jessie Ware?

  I like this already. This sounds straightforward.

• 20:45Speaker 05

  Yeah. It's equal parts ground coriander and cumin.

• 20:48Jessie Ware?

  Okay.

• 20:48Speaker 05

  And they complement each other so well because cumin's this like dark brooding horse of a spice. It smells a little bit like fresh man sweat in a nice way. And coriander's this like light floral, like lemony, like really happy smell. So those two go really well together. And then there's Kashmiri chilli, turmeric.

• 21:10Speaker 05

  Always, mainly for health related.

• 21:12Jessie Ware?

  And that's equal parts as well or not?

• 21:13Speaker 05

  I mean, you can add those, like, I don't know, typically add like half a teaspoon of turmeric and then chili, like as you wish. And so those are the core spices and occasionally should start a, like, some people like make a spiced oil called a turka. After you've cooked something and then pushed it in, she likes to do it before because it would stink the house out. Where you get your oil nice and hot and you throw some mustard seeds in there and they become nice and nutty or some fenugreek seeds. And I said, well, why do you do that? And she said, oh, it's mostly for health purposes. So I really think you could just get away with having like cumin, coriander, kashmiri chili, turmeric and salt and that would be it. And you could, that's like predominantly what she used. Now typically in Gujarati cooking, you don't really use onion and garlic that much.

• 21:57Speaker 05

  But she was raised partly because they were living in like really rural Uganda. She was raised by a Punjabi family and the Punjabi way of cooking is like a lot richer. Where you use like onions and garlic and lots of ginger and she uses tons of garlic. I love garlic. I mean, I love using so much that you can kind of smell it on your skin the next day.

• 22:20Speaker 05

  This is such a treat. My favourite thing is being invited over to other people's houses.

• 22:25Jessie Ware?

  Do you, we've had chefs on before and they've said that sometimes people really feel the pressure of cooking for you.

• 22:32Speaker 05

  I mean.

• 22:32Jessie Ware?

  Well, for chefs.

• 22:33Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 22:33Jessie Ware?

  Do you find that people kind of freak out and don't know what to do?

• 22:36Speaker 05

  I mean, sometimes I just feel like Hugh and I love hosting and so we tend to host quite a lot.

• 22:43Jessie Ware?

  How did you two meet?

• 22:44Speaker 05

  Uh, so we had, so he came to my flat when I wasn't there and he saw my bike. He's kind of a bike nut and saw my book collection and really wanted to like know more about me and so invited me over.

• 23:00Jessie Ware?

  Why was he there when you went there?

• 23:01Speaker 05

  Oh, because he's friends with my flatmate and she was having a dinner party and I was at work.

• 23:09Speaker 03

  He broke me.

• 23:11Speaker 05

  And when I met him, there was like, like, he looks like he'd splattered the walls with blood. There was like, he was making a fessenjahn from scratch. His like mother in laws, like Armenian.

• 23:21Jessie Ware?

  Fessenjahn. That's what Simon Le Bon was talking about on radio, you know.

• 23:25Speaker 05

  Oh, really? It's gorgeous to be had it.

• 23:27Speaker 03

  No, I need to do that.

• 23:28Speaker 05

  Oh, it's so good. It's so good and so simple. F E S E N J A N. And it's typically made, I think, with chicken or lamb.

• 23:40Jessie Ware?

  Yes, Le Bon did it with lamb last night.

• 23:42Speaker 03

  He said red meat.

• 23:45Jessie Ware?

  He said lamb, yes, lamb. And so he'd made a mess in your kitchen?

• 23:48Speaker 05

  Not my kitchen, his kitchen. Yeah, he'd just kind of really gone to town and doing this thing from scratch and it was gorgeous. And at the time I was working on, I was putting ping pong tables all across like London. I don't know if you've seen ping pong tables anywhere.

• 24:02Jessie Ware?

  Hold on, ping pong, what, like playing ping pong?

• 24:05Speaker 03

  Was it that, was it?

• 24:06Jessie Ware?

  Why were you doing that?

• 24:07Speaker 03

  Was it those places called ping pong and you could go there and play ping pong?

• 24:12Speaker 05

  No, so it wasn't that.

• 24:14Jessie Ware?

  Okay.

• 24:15Speaker 05

  So it was, like, before I was in FEED, I had an arts organisation called Sing London, which I'd had to set up. And we put pianos and ping pong tables on the streets of cities in a bid to sort of get people together. And we didn't make any money from it. We were just kind of funded by different pots. And he worked in advertising. And he wasn't very good at flirting, so I thought he was offering me free advertising until I turned up to a date.

• 24:40Speaker 05

  And anyway, it was really nice. And fessenjahn's now like one of our very special dishes, but we make it with aubergine now. So we'll typically have that at like Christmas time or when people come over and it's.

• 24:50Jessie Ware?

  This is like the beginning of a rom com. Don't you think?

• 24:55Speaker 05

  Yeah, it could be, could be.

• 24:57Jessie Ware?

  Nobody Wants This Part Two, but gets set in London.

• 25:01Speaker 05

  Yeah, and it was like a scene out of like a Bridget Jones style thing, because his name's Hugh De Winton. And so I thought he had land and was quite rich and he's not actually.

• 25:09Speaker 03

  He sounds it.

• 25:10Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 25:11Jessie Ware?

  Was that what compelled you to go on the date then?

• 25:13Speaker 05

  Yeah, obviously.

• 25:13Speaker 03

  Maybe they used to have land.

• 25:15Speaker 05

  Maybe. I think, I think they did. He said there's a lot of dead De Wintons in Wales. And so maybe there's like a patch of land with my name, with his name waiting on it over there somewhere.

• 25:25Jessie Ware?

  By the way, I'm acknowledging now. Yeah. The carrots are crunchy because I decided to scrub them.

• 25:33Speaker 03

  Frighten them.

• 25:34Jessie Ware?

  Did I frighten, shock them?

• 25:36Speaker 03

  Shock them, sorry.

• 25:37Jessie Ware?

  Um, no, but I scrubbed them. I was like, I'm just gonna keep them like with the um fucking skin on because it didn't have that much skin. I was like, I'm just gonna be rustic. And I'm not gonna do that next time because.

• 25:48Speaker 03

  No, I prefer them. I prefer them.

• 25:50Jessie Ware?

  We like the taste of soil.

• 25:51Speaker 03

  No, I can't taste soil.

• 25:53Jessie Ware?

  Oh, you may in a minute. Just, yeah.

• 25:55Speaker 03

  What did you do at university?

• 25:57Speaker 05

  So I did industrial relations, which is a really weird thing to study.

• 26:01Speaker 03

  Where?

• 26:02Speaker 05

  LSE, London School of Economics.

• 26:04Jessie Ware?

  Is that kind of like city planning? Is it start something? I mean, explain to us what industrial.

• 26:10Speaker 05

  So industrial relations is is sort of the relationship between business and people and government. And like kind of organising how people work. And so it's kind of, you know, it's all about trade unions and workers' rights and um employment law and how businesses operate. And I don't really, I kind of did it because I was doing young enterprises at school and I was a managing director, but my team was like, they were all rugby lads and we were painting photo frames and it was like a total nightmare. And I was like, this is so interesting, like, I can't get anyone to do anything. And so I sort of became really interested in the people's side of business, like the kind of human face of it.

• 26:52Speaker 05

  But I didn't really realise that like studying it would mean like I eat, there's like kind of two routes out of it and one is maybe human resources and the other one's like, you know, trade unionism and that neither of those appealed to me in any way, shape or form. And so I was spat out of it and set up my own dating agency, um, which was.

• 27:13Jessie Ware?

  That took such a turn.

• 27:17Jessie Ware?

  Was this before or after the ping pong?

• 27:20Speaker 05

  It was before. I think I didn't know what I wanted to do and I didn't really have any, um, my parents like worked for themselves. I knew I wanted to do something. For myself and I didn't really know what I wanted to do. I didn't want to kind of go into insurance like my dad had. And at the time, my cousin was looking for a husband, but she'd only ever dated English boys and she was looking for an Indian husband. And like the family was passing around these books with like bios and like photos like tacked into them. And I was like, this is crazy. And so I met with the owners of JDate.

• 27:53Jessie Ware?

  Yes.

• 27:53Speaker 05

  Because it was actually the, or the people who founded it, because it was the only online dating agency that existed at the time.

• 28:00Jessie Ware?

  So for people that don't know what JDate is, it's um a very, very old uh dating, it was before an app, wasn't it or not, maybe?

• 28:07Speaker 05

  It was one of the first.

• 28:08Jessie Ware?

  Oh, it was one of the first apps.

• 28:09Speaker 05

  Online dating website.

• 28:11Jessie Ware?

  And it was for Jewish people to ju- meet Jewish people.

• 28:13Speaker 05

  Yes. And so this one was meant to be for Indian people to meet other Indian people and it was called Fancy an Indian. And I'm really, I'm really sad that I gave up the URL because it, I don't know, it's just like such a great URL.

• 28:27Jessie Ware?

  You could be like a tech.

• 28:29Speaker 05

  Oh my god, I could be so rich. I could be a billionaire by now. Imagine.

• 28:35Speaker 03

  What did your mum say about this?

• 28:37Speaker 05

  I mean, she pumped some.

• 28:38Jessie Ware?

  She was thrilled.

• 28:39Speaker 05

  Yeah, exactly. She'd find a good husband this way, darling. Yeah. She would have been, they pumped money into it and at the same time, I was like working at a um a call centre selling anti wrinkle cream.

• 28:52Speaker 05

  And in a, in like a bar.

• 28:53Jessie Ware?

  And in your spare time, you were a teapot, as my grandma would say.

• 28:58Speaker 03

  I'm a teapot.

• 28:58Jessie Ware?

  Especially if you've done everything, so you, in, in your spare time, you're a teapot. I don't know why she used to say.

• 29:04Speaker 05

  I love that.

• 29:05Jessie Ware?

  Maybe like you can do everything, so you also can be a teapot.

• 29:07Speaker 05

  I mean, I was just being, I was, I was, you know, doing sort of part-time documentary making until I was fired. I had, I basically tried my hand absolutely. Uh yeah, I really felt like I was. And maybe that is like second generation immigrant, you know, something that I feel like my immigrant parents gave to me. It was like, you can do anything, you know, because they started from scratch and they, you know, managed to come out of their estate and like buy a lovely old rickety house somewhere and, you know, have a nice life in Lincolnshire.

• 29:37Speaker 03

  How far did Fancy the Indian?

• 29:38Jessie Ware?

  Fancy an Indian guy.

• 29:40Speaker 05

  I mean, it went as far as me printing T-shirts and handing out flyers in Leicester Square. I organised a couple of events.

• 29:46Speaker 03

  Any marriages?

• 29:47Speaker 05

  No, it didn't get that far because nobody. Can I tell you what happened though? Because also, at the time, I knew I'd been told about Hugh, my now husband. And my friend said, oh, you should talk to him because he's really good at playlists. So I was organising. I did a couple of in-person events called Save the Date. Where, you know, you had to show the other, you know, who you were looking to date. Like how good you were at like flipping pancakes like blindfolded. And he did the playlist. And he couldn't make it to an event, but we ended up getting married anyway.

• 30:20Jessie Ware?

  But have you started writing this story down?

• 30:23Speaker 03

  But you should.

• 30:24Jessie Ware?

  This is a Netflix rom-com.

• 30:25Speaker 03

  Yeah. But did any of the people you'd set up end up marrying?

• 30:30Speaker 05

  I know people who got together from a ping pong parlor that I had from the ping pong time, so I had.

• 30:34Jessie Ware?

  That makes you sound like a madam.

• 30:38Jessie Ware?

  My parlor, the ping pong parlor.

• 30:40Speaker 03

  Susan Sarandon has ping pong tables. That's her business.

• 30:46Jessie Ware?

  What? How do you know that?

• 30:48Speaker 05

  What, like the bars in New York, those ones?

• 30:51Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 30:51Speaker 05

  Oh, because it was so trendy at some point.

• 30:54Speaker 03

  You tricked it out.

• 30:54Jessie Ware?

  How long ago was this?

• 30:56Speaker 05

  Good question. It was two thousand and four, five, two thousand and four.

• 31:01Jessie Ware?

  Okay.

• 31:02Speaker 05

  Yes, quite a while ago. And I say I kind of fell into the food thing was a bit of an accident. I've always loved food.

• 31:10Jessie Ware?

  Yeah.

• 31:11Speaker 05

  The fact that I've got books out was because of a two-minute conversation that just changed the course of my life. And so, like, I was working at Innocent Drinks, you know, the smoothie company.

• 31:22Jessie Ware?

  Of course you were.

• 31:23Speaker 05

  And loved it there. It was like in the.

• 31:26Jessie Ware?

  When they were really buzzing.

• 31:28Speaker 05

  Yeah, so I was number fifty-five, I think, through the door. And it was just a brilliant place to work. And they offered this thing called a scholarship, which was a thousand pounds to make your dreams come true. Arguably, I needed more than a thousand pounds, but I was like, I'll take it. So you had to stand up in front of the company and pitch Dragon's Den style, your idea, and then. People would vote and I said, oh, I want to go and meet my family in India that I haven't met in Gujarat, write down the family recipes. And then I'm going to, you know, make a book and give it to everyone. And by that I meant like, I'm going to write it up on the work, on word, on the work computers, print it out on the work computers and then just give it to people who worked at Innocent. Only one of the guys who voted for me, a guy called Pete was fixing my laptop one day and he's like, oh, I voted for you.

• 32:13Speaker 05

  And my wife's an editor at Simon and she sees she go and meet with her and I was like, whatever, please fix my laptop. I need to go and get this PowerPoint presentation done. And so I went to meet with her and not thinking anything of it because I'm a brown girl from Scunthorpe and like people like me didn't publish cookbooks. And Bryony Gaulet changed my life because she said, oh, this could be a book and. You know, I'll send you a list of agents and go home, write a proposal and practically kick me out of the restaurant. And so two weeks later from meeting her, I had an agent and then five weeks later, I had five publishing deals on the table. And I just still can't believe that that would have never have happened if I hadn't.

• 32:54Jessie Ware?

  Pitched yourself to try and win a grant.

• 32:56Speaker 05

  And but also talked to Pete Gaulet, who was fixing my laptop. It was just a two minute conversation.

• 33:00Jessie Ware?

  Are you still friends with him?

• 33:01Speaker 05

  I am still friends with him and Bryony and I just think, you know, these things can just happen out of like magic out of nowhere.

• 33:09Jessie Ware?

  Kismet though, maybe it was meant to be.

• 33:11Speaker 05

  Maybe it was meant to be.

• 33:12Jessie Ware?

  What's kismet mean? Like serendipity, it's kind of like what was meant to be.

• 33:15Speaker 05

  Maybe I wasn't meant to be like a tech entrepreneur.

• 33:18Jessie Ware?

  Maybe you still are.

• 33:19Speaker 05

  Maybe.

• 33:20Jessie Ware?

  Maybe you're about to be a big Hollywood producer, thanks. Because the story of your life is fascinating.

• 33:25Speaker 05

  Well, thank you. I appreciate that.

• 33:27Speaker 03

  So anything you've not done yet?

• 33:29Speaker 05

  Well, I think partly what I found was because I don't know if you know this, but like I had a breakdown. And so, and I laughed, but it wasn't actually a laughing matter. It was actually quite a horrible period in my life.

• 33:43Jessie Ware?

  Was this after your second child?

• 33:44Speaker 05

  It was, but I don't think it was related to her because it was, I did have her during a pandemic and I think the reasons for why, why it happened are quite complicated. It might have been burnout. It could have been, you know, intense work deadlines or having a newborn baby, et cetera. But I just. And I fell out of love with like life and cooking and had to find my way back to the kitchen sort of step by step, a meal by meal. Which is what the book Dinner is about. So now, I think my point of saying that is I don't really, I try and sort of live in the little pockets of life these days, rather than sort of ambitiously try and do new things.

• 34:19Jessie Ware?

  I'm presuming that's because you used to potentially think the other way and that was, you felt detrimental.

• 34:26Speaker 05

  Yes, I think what happened was, I, I think my identity was very closely tied to achievement. And so I just like went through life thinking that I could do everything and then just trying to do all of these things. And I loved it, don't get me wrong, okay, just I fed off it, it felt like I had like air in my lungs when I was doing all of this new stuff and I felt like invincible and I was like, I'm gonna make documentaries, I'll go and do this. I felt fearless, like you do when you're in your twenties, you know, you just feel like you can do anything.

• 34:52Speaker 03

  But do you think there's also pressure because you are second generation immigrant?

• 34:56Speaker 05

  Totally. I just felt like, you know, my parents just sort of set the bar really high and they said, you know, we want you to be successful.

• 35:02Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 35:02Speaker 05

  We want you to, and then they kind of laid out like a set of jobs that, they wanted me to be happy. And, and it came from a place that was really good because they had had to like, you know, they were hiding from the milkman. They didn't have any money and they just wanted security and safety for me. So it came from a really good place.

• 35:18Speaker 03

  What helped you get better?

• 35:21Speaker 05

  So it was, it, it all hinged on one day and uh, so it's probably been in bed for, I just didn't want to get out of bed, I felt very lethargic. And like all of my senses just narrowed down to nothing. And I felt really discombobulated about what was going on. And then, you know, after months and months of the same thing, Hugh, my husband, was starting to crack under the pressure because he'd been looking after our two girls, including our little baby and me. And also doing all the family cooking. And he said, I'd love you to cook me a meal. And it was his way of saying, I really need you to care for me. I need someone to care for me and to love me.

• 36:02Speaker 05

  And so I just woke up, I'd been so sort of in my own head and I ran into the kitchen and I grabbed some lentils. And some coconut milk and then went to the freezer where I keep, you know, all my chillies, curry leaves, lemongrass, you name it. And then I made this like Malaysian dal that we'd eaten bucket loads of in Singapore and I, when I made it, I just felt really like I felt like fresh air like in my lungs. I felt like energy in my fingertips and I really loved doing it. And it felt so different to, you know, I felt energetic for a start and I loved cooking, which I hadn't wanted to do. And so I thought, maybe there's something in this here and maybe I just need to cook

• 36:41Speaker 05

  for myself or for pleasure or for joy, but not for work, not for deadlines, not for books. And so I started like cooking, just kind of feeling my way through. And, you know, it was typically fried eggs in like soy and butter over rice. Like we're talking really simple things like tofu fried rice or tomato pasta with a bit of kimchi in there. And I just kept a record of these things. And then this orange notebook that we keep by the microwave just started to fill up over time. And then I was meant to be under contract to write another book. And I spoke to my editor and I was already like a year late at this point on this book. And I said, listen, I really think I'm, I feel like this is giving me such purpose. Like I felt like

• 37:24Speaker 05

  by planning dinner, I felt really grounded and by cooking it, it was like a small sense of achievement in my day. And then with like coming around the table with everyone, it just was just magic. I just loved it. Which I know sounds really basic, but before that, I'll say that like, I might have been working all day on a lime pickle recipe trying to perfect it. I couldn't give that to the kids. So then we'd give them pasta or something. Hugh and I would eat later and it was all quite disjointed, but like here we were just all kind of eating this one thing together. And so dinner just became this like thing that I really felt like had so much magic and power in it.

• 38:04Speaker 05

  I think maybe as humans, we've always known that coming around the dinner table is a really wonderful, joyful, brilliant thing. But I'd lost sight of it. I just, I couldn't really see it.

• 38:14Speaker 03

  What do you think was wrong with you?

• 38:16Speaker 05

  I think it was stuff that I hadn't addressed from my childhood that, you know, and I think it was that a lot of my identity was tied into work.

• 38:24Jessie Ware?

  Um.

• 38:25Speaker 05

  And so I just kept on saying yes, and I like putting a lot of pressure on myself to do things. And then I think part of it was also writing recipes for, I mean, I've I've been in the game for ten years now. And initially I started because I wanted to record my mum's recipes.

• 38:40Jessie Ware?

  Um.

• 38:40Speaker 05

  And I wanted to record them because I wanted to pass them on. And suddenly I found myself not cooking. The food that I'd grown up eating, the dal, the spinach and paneer curries, the aubergine and tomato curries that she cooked day in, day out, like, you know, the the smell of charge parties on the toa that like just filled, you know, that's the smell of my childhood. And um I just got so far away from that, I think. And it's not like I was like power hungry. But you just can like go down a path and not, I just didn't look behind me until it was a bit too late.

• 39:11Jessie Ware?

  That resonates so much that you you're on this hamster wheel.

• 39:15Speaker 05

  Um.

• 39:16Jessie Ware?

  Where it's all good stuff, so therefore there's no reason to want to jump off until you burn yourself out. And I got to the point where you know, I have wonderful management and supportive people around me, but I was just like, I on the outside, everyone's going, you're good, it's doing, you're doing so well, it's so good, like, and you're like, you you don't know what what you're doing. And also having young children, I that resonates so much. I mean, I feel like this weight has been lifted that I have made this decision not to tour next year. And that's just one aspect. I love touring, but the juggle of that with the podcast, making new music, with promoting, with being a parent, it was like just even having that little bit has made me be able to feel like I can be a better parent and a better

• 40:00Jessie Ware?

  podcaster and artist, I don't know.

• 40:03Speaker 05

  Yeah, I I think it's really powerful that you say that because I think there are lots of people who will look at you from the outside thinking, how does she do it all?

• 40:12Jessie Ware?

  Yeah, and I hate that because they go, how do you do it all? And I'm like, actually, I'm really struggling.

• 40:16Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 40:16Jessie Ware?

  You know, and I'm sure it's similar to you.

• 40:19Speaker 03

  It's hard to have it all, isn't it?

• 40:21Speaker 05

  It really is. It really, really is. And we're part of this experimental generation.

• 40:25Jessie Ware?

  Um.

• 40:26Speaker 05

  Raising our. Kids and working full time and it's it's really hard. I feel like I've broken free from it. I mean, I'm still work in progress, but I'll have this idea that I want to create like, I don't know, a fresh supermarket dull range or something and then send out a few emails and then I'll think crap, I need to, I need to delete those because I shouldn't really be starting a new project. I really need to, you know, leave enough time for myself to just enjoy life, feel the sun on my face in the morning, do the yoga classes that I love doing, spend time with my kids. Like my idea of success these days looks like being able to pick up the kids at three thirty and we do that on a Friday and then we have film night and I am just the happiest.

• 41:20Speaker 00

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• 43:23Speaker 03

  Where do you think the best curry is in London?

• 43:25Speaker 05

  So my favorite place is Saravana Bhavan. Have you heard of it?

• 43:29Speaker 03

  Where is it?

• 43:30Speaker 05

  Okay, so they've got, I don't know, about five branches across London. But the one that's closest to me is East Ham. And there's a big South Indian community there. And the four of us, like my family, love to go on a Sunday. Early lunch, kids eat early. But at the same time, all of these South Indian families are tipping out of the temples. The women have got fresh jasmine in their hair. And all their beautiful temple jewelry on in their saris. And you're sitting bum to bum with them in Saravana Bhavan. It's more like a canteen, but it's really lively, like properly pumping in there. And we order a big jug of mango lassi. And then like rounds of dosas and like dal, butter fry. And you know, if you order a dosa, it's not just a dosa.

• 44:13Speaker 05

  It comes with beautifully spiced potatoes, all the fresh coconut chutney, the sambar. I mean, so good. Anthony Paner. So it's not really a typical kind of curry house, like, but.

• 44:24Speaker 03

  Does the job.

• 44:25Speaker 05

  Yeah, that sounds great. Would you like a restaurant? No, I don't think so because I think if I had a restaurant, I'd probably feel the need to be in it every day. And also I cook, I cook home cooking, like my food, the heart of it is like proper home food. And so my favorite thing is when people have cooked something and then it just becomes part of their repertoire and something that they love. And so I think if I opened a restaurant, I'd feel the need to make it like fancy or fussy. And that's not really who I am or what my food's about.

• 44:55Speaker 03

  So Miriam, if you invite me for dinner, what are you going to cook?

• 45:00Speaker 05

  Um.

• 45:00Speaker 03

  Not lunchtime, I want to come in the evening where I can not just have mango lassi unless it's laced with something exciting. So just tell me.

• 45:10Speaker 05

  What kind of stuff do you like?

• 45:12Speaker 03

  You can see I'm a difficult tricky. No, she doesn't. I'm going veggy because she cooks special.

• 45:17Jessie Ware?

  But it's not good for your arthritis.

• 45:19Speaker 03

  Yeah, oh but she's not.

• 45:20Speaker 05

  No, no.

• 45:20Jessie Ware?

  Nightshades.

• 45:21Speaker 03

  All the nightshades are not good for arthritis. I try.

• 45:25Speaker 05

  Oh.

• 45:26Speaker 03

  Not supposed to eat potatoes, tomatoes.

• 45:29Jessie Ware?

  Getting hard to.

• 45:30Speaker 05

  This is becoming quite a tight brief.

• 45:32Jessie Ware?

  You'd have to do your, you'd have to do your sexy chili paner, surely to.

• 45:36Speaker 05

  Oh yeah, okay. That's what I would do is um.

• 45:39Speaker 03

  Not too hot for me.

• 45:41Speaker 05

  We'd maybe start, we start with pani puri because they're loads of fun. I mean, we'd probably start with.

• 45:45Speaker 03

  Now, tell me how you make pani puri.

• 45:48Speaker 05

  Yes.

• 45:49Speaker 03

  Are they liquid ones?

• 45:51Speaker 05

  Yes.

• 45:51Speaker 03

  So you make them and then I've seen people on MasterChef make this.

• 45:54Speaker 05

  Stunning.

• 45:55Speaker 03

  And you make them and you put them in the oil, they puff up.

• 45:58Speaker 05

  Yes, I don't, I don't make them myself, I just buy them. Where can you buy them? Okay, so you can buy them from any Indian grocery store. But have a look at, pick up the box and have a look at the bottom, make sure there's not too many shards because obviously it relies on the liquid staying in, otherwise it goes all over you.

• 46:14Speaker 03

  Okay.

• 46:14Speaker 05

  Whatever you're wearing. And then you poke a hole in with your thumb.

• 46:18Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 46:19Speaker 05

  And put them to one side and then make a gorgeous delicious concoction of tamarind, cute, like roasted cumin seeds. Mint, coriander, a little bit of lemon, and that's sort of like pani, like a water that goes in. And then sprouted mung beans, like voluptuous chickpeas, like the ones that we've just eaten.

• 46:39Jessie Ware?

  You are so good with your words. You're like fricking Nigel Sl- you, Nigel Slater, could have like a word off about how you speak about food. Voluptuous chickpeas.

• 46:49Speaker 05

  Voluptuous chick, but they do taste like embarrassingly.

• 46:52Jessie Ware?

  Slater.

• 46:52Speaker 05

  Yeah, take that. Embarrassingly sexy, don't they, when you eat them and they're so creamy. Um.

• 46:58Jessie Ware?

  I love that.

• 46:59Speaker 05

  So you've got basically, you get this shell, you put all the little things in there and like you can sometimes get these like little chickpea crisps. And you pour the water in, it's got to go into your gob within about five seconds and they are. Just amazing. They taste delicious, like a flavour explosion. And I'd I'd make you a Naked and Famous, which is the worst name for a cocktail in the history of man.

• 47:18Speaker 03

  Oh my god.

• 47:19Speaker 05

  It's terrible. Do you know it?

• 47:21Speaker 03

  No, I don't.

• 47:21Speaker 05

  It's so good.

• 47:22Speaker 03

  We're going to have it though now.

• 47:25Speaker 05

  It's like the kind of grown up, sexier cousin of a margarita. And so you you make it.

• 47:32Speaker 03

  Famous.

• 47:32Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 47:33Speaker 03

  Who made this up?

• 47:35Speaker 05

  I don't know.

• 47:35Jessie Ware?

  How could they make a sexy and more grown up margarita and then have such a bad name with that?

• 47:39Speaker 03

  There's tequila, the base.

• 47:41Speaker 05

  So, yeah, it's mezcal and lime. So, you know, component parts of a margarita in a way. And then you add aperol and yellow chardonnay.

• 47:50Speaker 03

  Oh my god.

• 47:52Jessie Ware?

  This is a shit mix.

• 47:53Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 47:54Jessie Ware?

  This is like gonna get you rocked.

• 47:56Speaker 05

  Yeah, it's kind of like can have one, shouldn't have two.

• 47:59Speaker 03

  Okay.

• 48:00Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 48:00Speaker 03

  And do you put lots of ice in? Do you shake it?

• 48:03Speaker 05

  Yes, yeah. And it's the colour of a Miami sunset and you have to sip it quite slowly, but it's so delicious.

• 48:10Speaker 03

  I bet.

• 48:11Speaker 05

  So good.

• 48:12Speaker 03

  Wow.

• 48:13Speaker 05

  So main course, that's a good one. I think I might make you.

• 48:18Speaker 03

  I don't like it too spicy.

• 48:19Speaker 05

  Oh, you said that already. It's fine because Indian food doesn't have to be.

• 48:24Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 48:24Speaker 05

  Well, I mean, sadly, Asian food doesn't have to be spicy. You can just, you don't have to, I don't add it in for my kids. Like, I'll add a little bit in that they won't be able to taste. But when I have people over, I like to bung things in the oven now. I used to make very elaborate five course meals and now post burnout and very much like, you know, assembly job or do it in advance. And so this butter paneer curry and the recipes in dinner is a really good one because you chuck everything into a pan. And you don't normally make a curry in a pan, so it's quite a weird experiment for me. But I love it because it's so easy and I can just, I'd be able to sit down and we could just chat away.

• 49:01Speaker 03

  Good.

• 49:01Speaker 05

  Drinking our Naked and Famous cocktails.

• 49:04Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 49:05Speaker 05

  And actually, you know, before I used to be like a jack in a box, kind of jumping up and down. So I'd make that for you and it goes really well. I know it's not in season, but with an asparagus thoran, which is a Carolyn dish, like coconut, mustard, seeds.

• 49:19Speaker 03

  It's asparagus and cashew.

• 49:21Speaker 05

  Um, no, but I, I, I mean, I cook quite like my mom. I use British produce. And then I will cook something southeast Asian with that. And I'm a real tinkerer as well, so I'm not typically like an authentic cook in any way, shape or form. I'm just, I like to just cook.

• 49:38Jessie Ware?

  Sounds delicious.

• 49:39Speaker 05

  What would I make for pudding? Like, again, I try to make things easy on myself now. And the, the ice cream that I love to serve people is the pistachio and lemon one. That's the Hackney Chilato. Have you had that?

• 49:48Jessie Ware?

  I love Hackney Chilato. I like the banana one.

• 49:50Speaker 05

  Oh, I've not had that.

• 49:51Jessie Ware?

  Oh, it's like banana and peanut butter or something like that. It's so good.

• 49:54Speaker 05

  They are so good.

• 49:55Jessie Ware?

  They're bloody good.

• 49:56Speaker 05

  They're bloody good. And so my sneaky hack is I kind of whiz up some like, um, brown sugar and pistachios and like decorate, like throw it over the top. So it looks, it looks nice and maybe serve it with some fruit. But, I mean, if you were fully signed up, paid up member of the vegan experience or the vegetarian experience, I'd make you my cheesecake because it's not made with real cheese. And I just think.

• 50:20Jessie Ware?

  What's it made with?

• 50:21Speaker 05

  It's a good question. Yes. And it was just a mountain to climb. And I think partly that and my eighteen carat laxa, I just need to talk about because there's such absurd recipes. One's got a kilo of carrots in there.

• 50:33Jessie Ware?

  Oh my god, that vegan vanilla baked cheesecake looks sensational.

• 50:39Speaker 05

  It is.

• 50:39Jessie Ware?

  How many times did it take you to get that right?

• 50:41Speaker 05

  Yeah, no, many, many, many times because no one's agreed on what vegan dairy is. And so trying to write a recipe around an ingredient that just, you know, is a shapeshifter is not an easy thing. But that's why I love the internet because someone, I think I might have posted that I was struggling to like write this recipe because it kept on splitting. And this guy, trying to remember his name, it will come to me, but he got in touch and I said, I think I know what your problem is. It's like the ratios of this to this. And I was like, he's absolutely just made, like he's made my year, but the fact that we've created something now together and it's like this, like it's kind of a, it's almost like the state of affairs on vegan dairy and also the internet, because that could have only happened like now. Otherwise I would have failed and wouldn't be able to publish this recipe. I just think is,

• 51:27Speaker 05

  it's really great that we can get here because veganism is still relatively new in this country. And so I feel it's one of those ones where it's like, what are you grateful for? I'm like, ah, vegan dairy, this guy who helped me with this recipe.

• 51:45Jessie Ware?

  I'm really pleased with that.

• 51:47Speaker 05

  That is amazing. That is Ottolenghi levels of meringue.

• 51:51Jessie Ware?

  It's not Jesse thought.

• 51:52Speaker 05

  Wow.

• 51:53Jessie Ware?

  So it's brown sugar meringue with mascarpone coffee cream, cream.

• 51:59Speaker 05

  Cool.

• 52:00Jessie Ware?

  This is delicious. Cherries and grated chocolate. And I'm not a pudding girl and I think this, it was really easy. So shout out Ravne.

• 52:09Speaker 05

  That is unreal.

• 52:12Jessie Ware?

  That was good.

• 52:13Speaker 05

  And that is like the perfect chewy meringue.

• 52:16Jessie Ware?

  I know.

• 52:16Speaker 05

  So good.

• 52:17Jessie Ware?

  She puts corn flour in hers.

• 52:19Speaker 05

  I have heard that. Do you also use vinegar or something?

• 52:22Jessie Ware?

  No, she didn't. No. But this is banging.

• 52:24Speaker 05

  Mmm, oh good.

• 52:26Jessie Ware?

  Can I ask you what your last supper would be? Starter, main, pudding, drink of, I think I know the drink of choice. Is it going to be a Naked and Famous?

• 52:35Speaker 05

  It is.

• 52:36Jessie Ware?

  And you're going away to a desert island and you cannot have these delicious foods.

• 52:42Speaker 05

  Okay, so in 2013, I took a road trip around India with my then boyfriend, he is now my husband. And we ended up in Kerala in a place called Vakula.

• 52:51Jessie Ware?

  Oh, yeah.

• 52:52Speaker 05

  Have you? So we were invited to Kamari's house. Have you been to Kamari's house?

• 52:56Jessie Ware?

  I don't know.

• 52:57Speaker 05

  Damn, you need to go back to Kerala. You need to go back to Vakula. Her house is like paradise. Not only does she cook from scratch, but she grew everything from scratch. And I'm not just talking about vegetables. She made her own coconut oil. She had her own cow, like peppercorns, cardamom, cinnamon, everything. And so she made us this beautiful meal with 13 different curries, like beetroot pachadi, black eyed beans.

• 53:19Jessie Ware?

  Oh my god.

• 53:19Speaker 05

  Cabbage leeks, dal's, like uphams, it's like fermented rice pancake. It was a sensational meal and like the best of the trip. And then after we'd finished, she fed the banana leaf that she served onto the cow. So it was like also a no waste situation. And so I adored that meal and I've just, it's rarely been matched since. If I was, you know, if it was my last meal, my first call would be to Kamari to come and cook. It was just unreal.

• 53:50Jessie Ware?

  Would she do the whole meal?

• 53:52Speaker 05

  She would. So I think typically with Indian foods, you don't really tend to have like starters, mains and poods. Um.

• 53:58Speaker 03

  You just keep going.

• 53:59Speaker 05

  You've just, yeah, exactly. You've just got thirteen or fourteen or fifteen things in the centre of the table. So I think that's probably what I'd do. I'd have like a feast.

• 54:08Jessie Ware?

  That sounds heavenly. And to finish?

• 54:11Speaker 05

  To finish, I think, well, I mean, this is quite incongruent, but if it's my last meal and we're just allowed to be

• 54:17Jessie Ware?

  Yeah.

• 54:18Speaker 05

  whoever we are, I would probably have a tiramisu, which sounds bonkers considering the meal that just preceded it, but.

• 54:24Jessie Ware?

  It's one of the greatest desserts in the world.

• 54:26Speaker 05

  I mean, tiramisu is amazing, especially when it's made really well. And I had a sensational pistachio one recently. It was so good.

• 54:33Jessie Ware?

  Where from?

• 54:34Speaker 05

  So it was a girl called Rupert Badani who made it and she ran a supper club in fifty six St James', which is in Walthamstow, like quite close to me. And it was mind-blowingly good, mind-blowing. And I'm kind of just trying to see if I can inch in and become friends with her so that she might give me the recipe. It's so, so like, imagine that, like coffee and pistachio cream.

• 54:59Jessie Ware?

  Oh.

• 54:59Speaker 05

  Oh.

• 55:00Jessie Ware?

  Mira, it's been such a pleasure hearing you speak and speak so bravely and beautifully about your struggles, but also a wonderful outcome, which is dinner. And, and thank you so much for being on. And it's so, I'm so.

• 55:15Speaker 03

  Your story's about food. You make everything come alive.

• 55:18Speaker 05

  The, the luxurious chipmunks. I'm gonna, I'm gonna bring that up again. I love that. Well, listen, I've absolutely loved it. I love meeting you two. I think what you're doing is amazing. Your food is sensational.

• 55:29Speaker 03

  It was absolutely brilliant, darling.

• 55:32Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 55:33Speaker 03

  And that food.

• 55:34Speaker 05

  Would you like to me to put it in a doggy bag?

• 55:37Jessie Ware?

  Yes.

• 55:38Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 55:38Speaker 05

  I'd like to.

• 55:39Jessie Ware?

  At home.

• 55:39Speaker 05

  Yeah, because I, I, I gave you a huge one. I'd, I'd like to be polite and say, no, don't go to the trouble, but it's just too good.

• 56:00Jessie Ware?

  Thank you so much to Mira Soder for coming on and being so honest and fabulous and generous. I mean, she came in, I have to say. That's very generous by her. We haven't been getting as many prezies from guests recently.

• 56:15Speaker 06

  Beautiful flowers.

• 56:16Jessie Ware?

  What other guests have lacked in presence, she made up for in

• 56:19Speaker 06

  Flowers.

• 56:20Jessie Ware?

  Flowers.

• 56:21Speaker 06

  Beautiful bottle of wine.

• 56:22Jessie Ware?

  Chablis and honey cake. Just a word for all the PRs that have their people coming on. Just fucking bring me a bottle.

• 56:28Speaker 06

  Jessica, don't be grasping.

• 56:29Jessie Ware?

  No, I'm not. But that was very generous.

• 56:31Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 56:32Jessie Ware?

  And appreciated.

• 56:33Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 56:33Jessie Ware?

  And how thoughtful that we're recording this.

• 56:36Speaker 06

  So sweet, because she knew it was around Rosh Hashanah.

• 56:38Jessie Ware?

  And it's just so considerate.

• 56:40Speaker 06

  And it's the Claudia Roden recipe.

• 56:42Jessie Ware?

  Well, the goat. The goat. Thank you, Mira. I loved hearing her talking about food and her upbringing and her relationship with ingredients and meals and

• 56:55Speaker 06

  Very articulate, beautiful words.

• 56:57Jessie Ware?

  Just like, yeah, and I'm, I'm gonna finish the chablis with you.

• 57:02Speaker 06

  Oh no, darling, I think I better not.

• 57:04Jessie Ware?

  Really? How's that fast gonna be tomorrow? You're gonna be, you're gonna be dehydrated.

• 57:09Speaker 06

  I'm gonna not drink tonight.

• 57:10Jessie Ware?

  Cheers. Thank you to Mira Soder. Her book Dinner is out now. So if you ever, and as she said, she says she's a lazy cook. She wants to get the best flavour in the quickest time possible. That's my kind of gal. So if you're looking for a vegan vegetarian recipe book, this could be quite, well.

• 57:27Speaker 06

  I have to say, she's one of my favourite guests.

• 57:29Jessie Ware?

  I love that.

• 57:30Speaker 06

  To be honest.

• 57:31Jessie Ware?

  Listening to her talk about food, I could have, I was annoyed that the cab was here to do this.

• 57:37Speaker 06

  She's also got a beautiful voice. It's very soothing.

• 57:40Jessie Ware?

  And you know you'd have a good night out with Mira.

• 57:42Speaker 06

  Yeah, naked and, naked and famous.

• 57:44Jessie Ware?

  I'm in. Thank you, Mira, and thank you to everyone that listened. Mira Soder's book Dinner is out now. Go and get it.

• 58:16Speaker 00

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• 58:45Speaker 07

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