Ep. 649: Muzzleloader Blues

Steven Rinella https://www.youtube.com/@MeatEaterPodcastNetwork talks with Dirt Myth https://www.instagram.com/dirtmyth/?hl=en, Seth Morris https://www.instagram.com/sethmorris_45/?hl=en and Austin "Chilly" Chelaborad. Topics discussed: Failing to get it done with a muzzleloader, again; why Steve thinks today’s children are tomorrow’s enemies; Seth’s reporting on bear spray; reciprocity and spouses; stirring the pot; hammers cocking; old shooting contests; and more. Connect with Steve https://www.themeateater.com/authors/steven-rinella and The MeatEater Podcast Network https://www.youtube.com/@MeatEaterPodcastNetwork Steve on Instagram https://www.instagram.com/stevenrinella and Twitter https://twitter.com/stevenrinella?lang=en MeatEater on Instagram https://www.instagram.com/meateater, Facebook https://www.facebook.com/StevenRinellaMeatEater/, Twitter https://twitter.com/MeatEaterTV?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcamp%5Eserp%7Ctwgr%5Eauthor, and Youtube https://www.youtube.com/@MeatEaterPodcastNetwork See omnystudio.com/listener https://omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

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• 0:04Steven Rinella?

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• 2:41Speaker 02

  This is the Meat Eater Podcast coming at you shirtless severely bug bitten and in my case underwearless. We hunt the Meat Eater Podcast.

• 2:51Steven Rinella?

  You can't predict anything. The Meat Eater Podcast is brought to you by First Light. Whether you're checking trail cams, hanging deer stands, or scouting for elk, First Light has performance apparel to support every hunter in every environment. Check it out at firstlight.com. F-I-R-S-T-L-I-T-E.com. This episode is going to be called muzzleloader blues.

• 3:19Steven Rinella?

  I have, well, yeah, unless Seth's trying to launch a new show called Taint Talk, but because he's been listening to a lot of health and wellness podcasts. But muzzleloader blues, because once again, I have failed to get it done, as they say, with my muzzleloader.

• 3:43Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 3:44Steven Rinella?

  I just don't have the skills, man. Like, you know?

• 3:48Speaker 03

  Might be the tool.

• 3:49Steven Rinella?

  I'm a rifle man. I mean, the kind of center fire.

• 3:53Speaker 03

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. I don't blame you.

• 3:56Steven Rinella?

  It's gotta be similar to like archery. Like, you're not getting any further away than you would in archery. You've got it done. You've got to bow close. But archery, you get to hunt before the gun hunter. But archery, you get first cracks. And it's the rut. Muzzleloader, you get last cracks. Yeah. Meaning people have been terrorizing these poor animals. And then you gotta, you try to further antagonize them when they're kind of tuned into the what's up.

• 4:22Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 4:22Steven Rinella?

  Yeah. Archery, all your arrows work too.

• 4:25Speaker 03

  And yeah.

• 4:26Steven Rinella?

  Yeah, when I put my bow back, it's going off.

• 4:28Speaker 03

  Yeah. You know that the bow's going off.

• 4:32Steven Rinella?

  When I let her go, she's going. She's going.

• 4:37Steven Rinella?

  Um, yeah, a lot of stuff. A guy wrote in with a business idea from a podcast. And I, I, I get a lot of these, but this one I wanted to, his name's Brian. I, I just wanted to get you guys feeling on it because I'm having a hard time understanding it. I have, uh, I didn't invent this, but if you have a bill cap on, I'm gonna put my bill cap on and demonstrate. I wish I had my binos too.

• 5:01Speaker 03

  They're just in your truck.

• 5:02Steven Rinella?

  And we got a set of binos?

• 5:03Speaker 03

  Sam, can you, you wanna grab those?

• 5:05Steven Rinella?

  Yeah, can you grab those set of binos out of the truck?

• 5:14Steven Rinella?

  Here I've put my bill cap on. And I'm gonna demonstrate a strategy of buy, of knocks, a knocking, bino knocking, binocular strategy. What I was talking about is that you can use your bill. Again, I didn't, I didn't invent this. It's, it's always been around. But these are stabilizing binoculars, so it's less relevant. But here, I'm holding a pair of binoculars. Let's say these aren't stabilized binoculars. You, for you people watching at home not listening, when you hold them up, have you, do you know this trick?

• 5:45Speaker 03

  No, you grabbed it.

• 5:46Steven Rinella?

  Everybody knows this trick. You clamp, you clamp your, uh, fingers, you, you, you ratchet your binos. Where's that camera? You ratchet your binos to the bill of your hat. And if you wanna get mega stable, you pull slightly. So I'm pinching them.

• 6:15Speaker 03

  Mm-hmm. I like to get the hands, I like to, uh, I like to get the hands a little more on the side like this. That way it's like put, it's like putting blinders up.

• 6:25Steven Rinella?

  That's not the right way to do it.

• 6:26Speaker 03

  No, that is.

• 6:26Speaker 04

  That's, then you can get all, you basically grab it with the binos with your palms.

• 6:31Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 6:31Speaker 04

  And then you put all four fingers on your bill, then you got more stabilized.

• 6:34Steven Rinella?

  So you're like a dude from college in the nineties?

• 6:37Speaker 03

  I don't understand that curve.

• 6:38Steven Rinella?

  You know, when you used to wrap your hat around a beer can.

• 6:40Speaker 03

  Oh, yeah, yeah.

• 6:41Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 6:43Speaker 03

  Yeah, but that, if you do that, then especially when the sun's out.

• 6:46Steven Rinella?

  Yeah.

• 6:46Speaker 03

  That works. Put your blinders up, get your knockers set in.

• 6:49Steven Rinella?

  Because I run Backstreet Boys when it's sunny out.

• 6:53Speaker 04

  You did that. Yeah.

• 6:54Steven Rinella?

  Do you know what I'm saying?

• 6:55Speaker 04

  Mm-hmm.

• 6:55Steven Rinella?

  So the sun's over here, I run it like this.

• 6:57Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 6:59Steven Rinella?

  Right?

• 6:59Speaker 04

  But if you applied our method, you wouldn't have to do that.

• 7:02Steven Rinella?

  Yeah, and then I'm boned on this.

• 7:03Speaker 04

  Oh.

• 7:03Steven Rinella?

  So, you see what you're saying?

• 7:05Speaker 03

  You're stable and you're not getting any leak or light leaking in the sides.

• 7:10Steven Rinella?

  Yeah, I don't know, yeah, I could see it a little bit. Either way, the, what I have invent, I didn't invent that, but what I did invent was this. I invented the pull.

• 7:25Speaker 04

  Just say that.

• 7:26Steven Rinella?

  No one, no one had done that. I've checked around.

• 7:30Speaker 04

  There's not a soul in the world that has ever done that.

• 7:32Steven Rinella?

  Not, not when you put a slight pull for extra stability. A guy heard me talking about this. Named Brian.

• 7:43Speaker 04

  Okay.

• 7:45Speaker 04

  A slight pull, huh?

• 7:47Steven Rinella?

  Yeah.

• 7:48Speaker 04

  I don't know if that's.

• 7:48Steven Rinella?

  Locks in.

• 7:49Speaker 04

  I don't. What if your hat pops off?

• 7:51Speaker 03

  I feel like, I feel like a push would lock in better.

• 7:53Steven Rinella?

  No, that, it's hitting your eyes and you don't want that.

• 7:55Speaker 04

  Well, yeah, then you're stable against your face.

• 7:58Steven Rinella?

  I can explain it better later. This guy writes in, Brian, if you switch the letters, it's in Nate, in his name around, you get brain.

• 8:05Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 8:06Steven Rinella?

  He says, I just had an idea.

• 8:10Steven Rinella?

  Well, first he says, hey, Steve, and he says, I just had an idea.

• 8:14Steven Rinella?

  I heard your podcast regarding the trick, now listen carefully because I get confused for this. I heard your podcast regarding the trick to hang on to binoculars using the bill of your bill cap.

• 8:28Steven Rinella?

  Bill of your cap, and he, uppercase is bill.

• 8:32Steven Rinella?

  Comma. I thought, why not come up with a strap system?

• 8:39Steven Rinella?

  Now here's where you gotta start paying attention.

• 8:42Steven Rinella?

  A strap system that goes around the binoculars.

• 8:49Steven Rinella?

  Comma, so.

• 8:52Steven Rinella?

  Forget the, I, I thought, why not come up with a strap system that goes around the binoculars? Comma, hold him into the exact place you want.

• 9:02Steven Rinella?

  And a strap then runs over the top of your head. And attaches underneath your shoulders.

• 9:12Speaker 03

  Wow.

• 9:13Steven Rinella?

  Binoculars stay glued to your eyes.

• 9:17Speaker 03

  It'd make it hard to peel them away.

• 9:19Speaker 04

  I'm failing to see.

• 9:20Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 9:22Speaker 04

  What, what.

• 9:22Steven Rinella?

  I don't want you boys to get uncomfortable by removing my belt.

• 9:26Speaker 04

  There you go.

• 9:27Speaker 03

  Been bad, you've been bad, Chili.

• 9:29Speaker 04

  Watch out now.

• 9:29Steven Rinella?

  You thinking you either did something bad, or I'm gonna do something bad, but neither is true. He's saying.

• 9:40Speaker 03

  Man, there's so many straps.

• 9:41Steven Rinella?

  Can you hold these up for a minute?

• 9:42Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 9:43Steven Rinella?

  He's saying something to this effect.

• 9:47Speaker 03

  And then under the.

• 9:48Steven Rinella?

  Under back, under my armpits.

• 9:51Speaker 04

  At that point.

• 9:54Steven Rinella?

  I think that's it.

• 9:56Speaker 03

  You're like.

• 9:57Speaker 04

  He just essentially what he.

• 9:58Steven Rinella?

  This is a bit, this is a business idea.

• 10:00Speaker 04

  Well, essentially what he piggybacked off of was a Kevlar helmet.

• 10:07Steven Rinella?

  No, he's right, look.

• 10:10Speaker 03

  Yeah, it's almost like a set of, it's almost like a set of nods on helmet.

• 10:13Steven Rinella?

  What he's not thinking of is that you can't go about your day.

• 10:18Speaker 03

  You gotta be able to flip them up.

• 10:20Steven Rinella?

  Yeah, because you can't find. Like, uh.

• 10:25Speaker 03

  You'd be tripping over stuff.

• 10:26Steven Rinella?

  Yeah, you can't drive to your spot.

• 10:29Speaker 03

  You can't be running around all day on 12 power.

• 10:32Steven Rinella?

  So any feedback would be wonderful, um.

• 10:37Steven Rinella?

  Keep, keep plugging away at it.

• 10:39Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 10:40Speaker 03

  I think it's gotta be, uh, you know, like your fancy coon hunting hat? It's got the, the inner liner.

• 10:46Steven Rinella?

  Yeah.

• 10:47Speaker 03

  I think, uh. Quick connect. It's gotta be something on there that you can flip them up. And then pop them down.

• 10:53Speaker 04

  I'd pay good money to see Steve roll around the planes in a Kevlar with just some nods on it.

• 10:58Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 10:59Speaker 04

  Every time.

• 10:59Steven Rinella?

  Just binos on there, yeah.

• 11:01Speaker 03

  And then if you fall, you're protected.

• 11:03Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 11:04Steven Rinella?

  I was making a, I was making an argument the other day. My boy is, my older boy is tangled up at school in um, speech and debate class.

• 11:15Steven Rinella?

  I remember being, yeah, speech and debate is what it's called.

• 11:20Steven Rinella?

  I went down to the, to the orientation with my wife and when they asked for questions, I was dying to ask a question, but I didn't. And then I told my wife, I said, I'm gonna tell you something.

• 11:34Steven Rinella?

  And you're not gonna like, take it seriously. You're just gonna, you're gonna like, be mildly offended. You're not gonna really listen to what I'm saying. Okay.

• 11:44Steven Rinella?

  And I was saying, it doesn't, without knowing

• 11:51Steven Rinella?

  the ethics

• 11:54Steven Rinella?

  of a child.

• 11:57Steven Rinella?

  I don't think it makes sense to train them in speech and debate.

• 12:05Steven Rinella?

  And I said to her, I had, I came up with this slogan.

• 12:11Steven Rinella?

  Today's children are tomorrow's enemies.

• 12:13Speaker 03

  Whoa.

• 12:14Steven Rinella?

  It's great. So picture.

• 12:17Speaker 03

  It's great.

• 12:18Steven Rinella?

  Yeah. This is a mildly indefensible position, but think about it. What I was saying is like, here you got a whole class from your kids. I don't know what their belief systems are.

• 12:29Steven Rinella?

  But, but here we are, like, like you donate your time or money to train them to be persuasive. Without knowing what their belief system is. How do you know you're not training

• 12:44Steven Rinella?

  someone who would be adversarial to your position?

• 12:48Speaker 03

  True.

• 12:48Steven Rinella?

  Training them and making them more convincing, thereby creating a future enemy.

• 12:55Speaker 03

  I think that happens.

• 12:57Steven Rinella?

  I think you would first vet, you'd, you'd vet them to find the ones that you kind of agree with and then train them in speech and debate.

• 13:05Speaker 03

  How would you vet them? And who's vetting them?

• 13:06Steven Rinella?

  Questionnaire. I'll, I would do the questionnaire.

• 13:10Speaker 04

  But that would be, that'd be, that would be very subjective to, to you and your beliefs.

• 13:16Steven Rinella?

  Yes. And you'd have to try out for speech and debate and I would come in and volunteer to come in and be like, yep, no, yep, no.

• 13:23Speaker 04

  So speech and debate.

• 13:24Speaker 03

  According. According to Steve. You're right. You're right. Your wife proudly didn't take that seriously. I could see that.

• 13:29Steven Rinella?

  No, I told her it and I've yet to have her come back to me with any kind of a reply.

• 13:35Speaker 03

  You'd have to have a board of people who like a.

• 13:40Steven Rinella?

  Then I'd have to be able to vet the board.

• 13:42Speaker 03

  Like a.

• 13:44Steven Rinella?

  I'd have to pick the board then, you know what I'm saying?

• 13:48Speaker 03

  Well, I'm just saying if you wanted to keep it fair or or you don't want to keep it fair. You just want people to believe what you believe.

• 13:54Steven Rinella?

  Can I give you a piece of? Can I give you some listener feedback about this?

• 13:58Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 13:58Steven Rinella?

  This is all teeing up listener feedback. It's a great subject line. It starts out my three favorite, four favorite words. Steve is 100% correct. That's how it starts out. Steve is. Steve is 100% correct about debate class. And here's a real life example. Why?

• 14:22Steven Rinella?

  Dying to know?

• 14:23Speaker 03

  Mm hmm. Yep.

• 14:24Steven Rinella?

  Steve is spot on when he says that teaching debate separate from ethics is dangerous. That's not really what I said, but sure. My daughter dates a state champ debate guy who is a class A a-hole.

• 14:40Steven Rinella?

  When their relationship sours, he is expert at convincing her that the reason things have gone bad is because of her.

• 14:50Steven Rinella?

  He never takes responsibility for his actions and makes her feel like shit. His ability to win either side of a debate has given him the notion that he is never wrong because he can always justify his position in his mind and convinces her that she is in the wrong because he is able to twist the situation and deflect blame back on her.

• 15:16Steven Rinella?

  One need, this is the letter, I'm still reading the letter. One need only be convincing in a debate, not ethical, moral, or right, and therein lies the issue. Signed a pissed off dad.

• 15:31Speaker 04

  Did you write that letter, Ian?

• 15:32Steven Rinella?

  No.

• 15:35Steven Rinella?

  That wasn't what I was getting at. I was more getting at, I don't want to train up, but my, like, these other, you know, I'm worried about, like, the whole classroom of kids, like, some of them are gonna have viewpoints different than mine, and then they're gonna be, come convincing, and what if they come convince me of something? That I don't want to be convinced of.

• 15:53Speaker 04

  So you're just, you're ultimately scared to change?

• 15:56Steven Rinella?

  Mm-hmm. That's right. Seth, can you, can you share your reporting about bear spray?

• 16:03Speaker 04

  Oh, yeah.

• 16:03Steven Rinella?

  This is probably your first piece of original reporting.

• 16:07Speaker 04

  Probably. It ain't, it's not gonna be, I mean, it's not crazy, but...

• 16:12Steven Rinella?

  Well, uh, want me to tee it up?

• 16:14Speaker 04

  Tee it up.

• 16:15Steven Rinella?

  Okay, the other day, on a podcast, we had a podcast with a guest, um, who spent their career, much of their career, working with grizzly bears and, um, catching problem bears and, and dealing with catching bears and trying to get people to not have problems with bears, stuff like that. And then there we got into a conversation about bear spray, and this guy's a longtime hunter, worked as a hunting guide, and I laid out to him, okay, the perennial debate, pistol, bear spray, what do you like? He said, bear spray.

• 16:50Steven Rinella?

  And he went on to say, you know, very few people are actually proficient with a pistol, despite how much they might think they're proficient with a pistol, but with bear spray, you're creating a cloud of spray. I see Chili did a little face.

• 17:04Speaker 04

  I just, I mean, I would agree with the fact that a lot of people aren't proficient with a pistol, but...

• 17:11Speaker 03

  Like, I think a lot of things, like one, what if the wind's blowing in your face? And like, you blind the bear, but you also blind yourself, or if you don't get the bear.

• 17:19Steven Rinella?

  Cause then the bear, that's fine.

• 17:21Speaker 03

  But like, I just think there are a lot more things can go wrong with bear spray. And personally, I just feel more comfortable with a gun. Because, I mean, I've never had to shoot at a, a bear, but I've seen videos and I've like, read reports, like, a lot of the bears just bugger off at, at the sound of a gun.

• 17:39Steven Rinella?

  I've had them go toward the sound of a gun.

• 17:42Speaker 03

  Wow.

• 17:43Steven Rinella?

  I've shot in front of them and then had them go look at where I shot.

• 17:46Speaker 03

  Hmm.

• 17:47Steven Rinella?

  Cause they saw something move.

• 17:48Speaker 03

  Yeah. I think it depends on the person.

• 17:51Steven Rinella?

  Either way.

• 17:51Speaker 03

  I've shot my pistol thousands more times than I have my bear spray.

• 17:58Steven Rinella?

  Okay.

• 18:00Steven Rinella?

  You ready for your reporting now?

• 18:02Speaker 03

  Yup.

• 18:05Speaker 03

  Um, well, didn't someone, didn't someone write in about assault, bear spray for assault?

• 18:12Steven Rinella?

  Greg Fons, who's been on the podcast before.

• 18:14Speaker 03

  Greg Fons, yeah.

• 18:15Steven Rinella?

  Well, Greg Fons, he's a, he's a firefighter.

• 18:18Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 18:18Steven Rinella?

  In Sacramento. And he said his experiences with bear spray are not from people carrying them around for bears, but it's kind of a thing commonly used for assault and robbery.

• 18:30Steven Rinella?

  He says, I bet more people get sprayed by bear spray than bears get sprayed by bear spray. Absolutely true.

• 18:35Speaker 03

  Yup.

• 18:36Steven Rinella?

  Um, I've, I've had two incidents of getting sprayed by bear spray. Uh, not bears, I've yet to see a bear get shot with bear spray. I've seen bears get fired at with guns, but not fired at by bear spray. And I've, I've a couple of times had occasion to shoot in front of them to try to deter them.

• 18:54Speaker 03

  So, yeah, by Greg writing in about that, that brought up this story that I was telling these guys of, the, I live in Three Forks, Montana, and there was, um, a bar that back in the summer, got robbed during like, the evening when it was full of people. And the guy came in and just sprayed everyone with bear spray, took the money and ran out.

• 19:17Steven Rinella?

  Genius criminal.

• 19:18Speaker 03

  So while everyone's like blinded and coughing and whatnot, he's pulling money out of the,

• 19:24Steven Rinella?

  You know.

• 19:24Speaker 03

  Out of the cash register. Still at large. Still at large as far as I know.

• 19:27Steven Rinella?

  Never caught them.

• 19:28Speaker 03

  I don't think they did.

• 19:29Steven Rinella?

  You know that, how they made that Ocean's Eleven movie? You could make it really short.

• 19:35Steven Rinella?

  Like Ocean's One.

• 19:39Steven Rinella?

  Like a really short, one of those heist movies where that guy just comes in, cuts loose at that bear spray and grabs the stuff and runs out. It'd be a short.

• 19:48Speaker 04

  Yeah. Just get Brad Pitt.

• 19:49Steven Rinella?

  It'd be like a YouTube short called Oceans One.

• 19:53Speaker 03

  Hopefully you got- Or you could turn it into a full-length movie and that happens in the beginning and then the rest of the movie is-

• 19:58Steven Rinella?

  Oh, just make it part of a movie.

• 19:59Speaker 03

  Trying to, trying to figure out who did it.

• 20:02Speaker 04

  Did he recoup the cost of a bear spray? Cause those are kinda expensive. Forty bucks a can.

• 20:06Speaker 03

  Yeah. I don't know how much money was stolen.

• 20:08Speaker 04

  Was it stolen like-

• 20:09Steven Rinella?

  Did they get the bar cleaned out and back in business?

• 20:12Speaker 03

  I, yes, they did. Um, but I still hear every once in a while, like someone will be like, I was in the plaza and

• 20:19Speaker 03

  my skin got irritated when I was playing the, the gambling machines or whatever.

• 20:23Steven Rinella?

  Really?

• 20:24Speaker 03

  Cause they're still like, yeah.

• 20:26Steven Rinella?

  Never, I can't believe they never caught him.

• 20:28Speaker 03

  I, I didn't, I didn't hear that they, that they caught him. Maybe they did, but I don't think so.

• 20:33Steven Rinella?

  When my, when I was a little kid, my dad was, my mom and dad were out to dinner with some of their friends. And the, the, the other woman besides my mom, right? She had a little thing of mace. And my dad was curious about her, some kind of spray on a keychain. And he was curious about its range and shot it in the restaurant into a vent.

• 20:59Speaker 03

  Oh.

• 21:00Steven Rinella?

  Not realizing it's like, uh,

• 21:05Steven Rinella?

  you know.

• 21:05Speaker 03

  It's real strong.

• 21:06Steven Rinella?

  It's strength and the, the whole place got evacuated.

• 21:09Speaker 03

  Wow. Did they know it was him?

• 21:11Steven Rinella?

  Yeah. It became an often told story in my family.

• 21:19Speaker 03

  Yeah, that's probably not a good thing.

• 21:21Steven Rinella?

  This guy says this, bear spray accidents. Listen to episode 365 and the part of bear spray going off randomly reminded me of being on a caribou hunt in Alaska.

• 21:31Steven Rinella?

  My friend Louis and I come out of the tent and there's caribou on top of the hill outside camp. We grab our guns and packs and head off. That sounds like caribou hunting. Louis is supposed to shoot first. He drops his bag on a tussock that lands on his bear spray, causing it to go off. It shoots a stream of spray across Louis's chest, causing him to drop like a rock.

• 21:56Steven Rinella?

  Between gas of air, he was yelling for me to shoot the bull, which I happily did.

• 22:04Speaker 03

  Hmm, nice. At least they got the bowl.

• 22:06Steven Rinella?

  Another time I left a can of spray in my eighty-three GMC pickup after a day hiking in July. Come back out the next morning and the canister had exploded in my truck. That's common.

• 22:15Speaker 03

  Yeah, I've heard that.

• 22:18Steven Rinella?

  He eventually got them cleaned by stripping all the interior parts out and pressure washing them. I've heard of cars getting totaled from it.

• 22:24Speaker 03

  You know, I have, I have bear spray in my bag right now because we're in a berry area.

• 22:29Steven Rinella?

  What are you gonna do? Get it out of your bag when he comes for you?

• 22:31Speaker 03

  Well, no, I just, I've listened to my story.

• 22:34Steven Rinella?

  Okay.

• 22:34Speaker 03

  It's in my, just my duffel bag. I was gonna, if, I don't know. If I thought I needed it, I was gonna put it in my little harness thing. But I have, I think at Walmart, I got, you know, like pub mix stuff? Comes in like a plastic cylinder. I had, I have it in that thing, kind of wrapped up, so it's not just bouncing around in there with the lid on. And that's how I transport it.

• 22:57Steven Rinella?

  I keep mine in a mini ammo can. Because you can put two or three of them in the mini ammo can.

• 23:02Speaker 03

  Yep.

• 23:03Steven Rinella?

  And it's got a little foam in there to keep it from rattling around. But that way it can cut loose and nothing's coming out of there.

• 23:08Speaker 03

  So if you're gonna have it in your car, put it in something like that.

• 23:11Steven Rinella?

  There are a couple of instances where pepper sprays have taken down aircraft, small aircraft.

• 23:18Speaker 03

  I believe that. In Alaska?

• 23:20Steven Rinella?

  Well, I'm sure probably, I'm sure it's happening in Canada as well. But yeah, one will cut loose in the cockpit. So generally when you fly with bush planes, they take your spray and they tape it. They duct tape it to the struts on the wings, but there's been cases like that. And there was an air wreck not long ago where, um, they weren't able to determine the cause. Inside the cockpit, everything was orange. But they could never determine, it was inconclusive whether the can erupted upon impact.

• 23:51Speaker 03

  Oh.

• 23:53Steven Rinella?

  Or if the can erupted and caused the plane to crash.

• 23:56Speaker 03

  Yep. We've been flying in Alaska before where you look out the window and that can just taped to the wing. Starts shaking and it.

• 24:05Speaker 03

  You're like, shit.

• 24:10Steven Rinella?

  That's like that movie Gods Must Be Crazy. Remember that movie?

• 24:13Speaker 03

  The Coke bottle.

• 24:14Steven Rinella?

  Oh, no. Yeah, all of a sudden here you are and then here's a paper spray comes down. We've been having some discussions. This is more listener feedback. We've been having some discussions about, well, there was another thing I was gonna talk about, but it's so talked about now. Everyone I know has sent it to me. A tragedy where in Virginia, a bear hunter, everybody's seen this. Everybody's seen this, nevermind. A bear hunter was killed. They shot a bear and the bear fell out of a tree and landed on a guy and killed him. But it's so heavily commented on and reported on and misconstrued.

• 24:47Steven Rinella?

  We've been discussing lately when states use recipro- a thing called reciprocity for management purposes around hunting and fishing regulations. An example of what we're talking about would be this.

• 25:00Steven Rinella?

  In North Dakota,

• 25:03Steven Rinella?

  you can spear pike through the ice only if a North Dakotan would be allowed to spear pike through the ice in your state or province.

• 25:18Steven Rinella?

  You tracking?

• 25:19Speaker 03

  Wait, say that one more time?

• 25:20Steven Rinella?

  Yep. Let me give you this one. Let me give you another example.

• 25:23Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 25:26Steven Rinella?

  This just changed, but let me give you another example. Montana.

• 25:30Speaker 03

  Oh, yeah. I know where you're going with this one.

• 25:32Steven Rinella?

  Prohibits non-residents from trapping fur-bearing animals.

• 25:38Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 25:39Steven Rinella?

  Not non-game.

• 25:40Speaker 03

  Unless their state allows.

• 25:42Steven Rinella?

  Unless, no, no. They just forbid non-residents.

• 25:48Speaker 03

  Oh, they do?

• 25:49Steven Rinella?

  Yeah, they're the ones that started it. Montana, they just changed it, but Montana will not sell a fur harvester license to a non-resident.

• 25:57Speaker 03

  Oh, but before that, it wasn't.

• 25:59Steven Rinella?

  Hear me out.

• 26:00Speaker 03

  Okay.

• 26:01Steven Rinella?

  No, no, you tell everybody.

• 26:02Speaker 03

  No, I thought at one point in time it was a non-resident could trap in Montana if their state allows non-residents to trap there.

• 26:13Steven Rinella?

  No, because Montana's the one that said you can't.

• 26:16Speaker 03

  Gotcha.

• 26:17Steven Rinella?

  They they they're them Minnesota. Okay. There's certain states that do not let non residents trap fur bearing animals.

• 26:25Speaker 03

  Gotcha.

• 26:26Steven Rinella?

  Now, you could come to Montana trap fox. You'd come to Montana trap coyotes because they're non game, but you couldn't trap bad pet. You couldn't trap beaver, otter, muskrat.

• 26:33Speaker 03

  Gotcha.

• 26:34Steven Rinella?

  Fur bearing animals. So a case of reciprocity would be like Wyoming, for instance. Wyoming says, okay. You, we will sell a non resident a fur harvester license if that, if our residents can buy in their state.

• 26:51Speaker 03

  Gotcha.

• 26:52Steven Rinella?

  And so it would be that if you lived in Montana, you could not trap in Wyoming. Why? Because Montana had banned Wyoming people from trapping.

• 27:01Speaker 03

  Yep.

• 27:01Steven Rinella?

  Minnesota has another situation like that. That's a case of reciprocity. There's reciprocity. Um, like I said, with pike spearing. If you don't allow, if your state doesn't allow pike spearing.

• 27:14Steven Rinella?

  Um, Wisconsin.

• 27:18Steven Rinella?

  You can't come spear northeast in North Dakota.

• 27:21Speaker 03

  Gotcha.

• 27:23Steven Rinella?

  I was, uh, a while ago, I was musing about whether you would start to use reciprocity against states that are doing bans on certain hunting activities. So meaning California bans bobcat hunting, bobcat trapping, mountain lion hunting.

• 27:46Steven Rinella?

  Should a Californian?

• 27:50Steven Rinella?

  Be allowed to go, like, should a Californian be allowed to go to another state? And participate in those activities when their state has banned the right. I was just musing about asking this question just to like, you know, get intellectual, uh, you know, the intellectual juices flowing.

• 28:08Speaker 03

  How do you feel? That was the case. I hope they ban deer hunting in Washington.

• 28:14Steven Rinella?

  Well, that's where it becomes interesting because if you have like, when, because you have a lot of states that are becoming increasingly adversarial, you have, you have like states that are coming adversarial to hunters and hunters, trappers, fishermen, right?

• 28:29Speaker 03

  Yep.

• 28:29Steven Rinella?

  And then, you know, like Washington, when they, during the pandemic, they banned fishing by yourself.

• 28:37Steven Rinella?

  Like, if you had a pond in your yard, you could go out there and shoot golf balls into that pond during COVID.

• 28:45Speaker 03

  But you couldn't fish.

• 28:46Steven Rinella?

  But there's a period of time when you couldn't go there and cast into that pond.

• 28:52Speaker 03

  Yeah, just, you know, keeping everyone safe.

• 28:54Steven Rinella?

  Yeah. So as you have states, Colorado, well, Colorado just beat one of these things, but Colorado, Washington, California.

• 29:03Speaker 03

  Yep.

• 29:03Steven Rinella?

  Um, other states in the east, as you have these states that are becoming like super restrictive, you create kind of like a hunting and fishing refugees.

• 29:13Speaker 03

  Yep.

• 29:14Steven Rinella?

  That then carry on all their activities elsewhere, meaning Washington state, they like, they're very stingy, they, they don't, they, they, they, they don't want to manage predators, they're very stingy with big game tags. And so you create a lot of hunting refugees.

• 29:29Speaker 03

  Yep.

• 29:30Steven Rinella?

  Who move into neighboring states.

• 29:32Speaker 03

  Into Montana.

• 29:32Steven Rinella?

  They, right? So should you like, would a state ever say like, listen, if you're gonna, if, if like, let's say Colorado had passed the mountain lion, but no, let's stay with California, California bans trapping, they ban hunting cats.

• 29:48Speaker 03

  Yep.

• 29:48Steven Rinella?

  Hunting lions. Would Montana ever be like, okay, if that's how you guys are about this, then your people cannot come here and do that here.

• 29:56Speaker 03

  They won't do that because it drives too much revenue.

• 29:59Steven Rinella?

  Well, Yanni says you're punishing the wrong people.

• 30:03Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 30:04Steven Rinella?

  Yanni says, like, if Colorado had passed their mountain lion ban, so then you want to further punish those people in Colorado? And saying they can't go elsewhere to do it?

• 30:14Speaker 03

  It'll fire. Just like, people who agree with the mountain lion ban in Colorado just can't even come to Montana at all. They just have to stay there.

• 30:24Speaker 03

  But we'll take the hunters.

• 30:25Steven Rinella?

  That'd be fine with me. That'd be fine with me. I feel like gloating all over again about that not passing, but, um.

• 30:34Speaker 03

  You can if you want.

• 30:36Steven Rinella?

  You know what I came up with that I haven't had a chance to use yet is, um, a high no. You know what a rhino is?

• 30:44Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 30:45Steven Rinella?

  A hino.

• 30:46Speaker 03

  What's a hino?

• 30:47Steven Rinella?

  Hunter name only.

• 30:50Steven Rinella?

  That'd be like the hunters that were for the mountain lion ban in Colorado.

• 30:53Speaker 03

  Oh.

• 30:53Steven Rinella?

  Hinos were like, I'm a hunter. I hunt pheasants once a decade and I support the ban on mountain lions.

• 31:02Steven Rinella?

  That was a thing.

• 31:02Speaker 03

  That was a hino.

• 31:04Steven Rinella?

  Yeah, that was a thing.

• 31:05Speaker 03

  That's crazy.

• 31:06Steven Rinella?

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• 31:48Steven Rinella?

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• 32:33Steven Rinella?

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• 33:15Steven Rinella?

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• 33:59Steven Rinella?

  Anyways, this guy writes in about reciprocity. Ready for this?

• 34:02Speaker 03

  Yep.

• 34:02Steven Rinella?

  "The state of Ohio does not require resident landowners to purchase a hunting license or deer tag to hunt their property."

• 34:10Speaker 03

  Wow, really?

• 34:11Steven Rinella?

  "A minimum of five acres."

• 34:17Steven Rinella?

  I had no idea. Is that true? "The state of Ohio does not require a resident landowner to purchase a hunting license or deer tag to hunt their own property if they have a minimum of five acres."

• 34:27Speaker 03

  Yeah, I think that's true in multiple states. I think it was like that in New Jersey.

• 34:32Steven Rinella?

  "This privilege extends to the landowner's spouse and children."

• 34:40Steven Rinella?

  Resident landowners still have to tag their deer, report them, and are subject to bag limits and all the other regs. I had no idea.

• 34:48Speaker 03

  I want to say, I could be wrong on this, but I want to say New Jersey was like that. And you just go pick up your tags.

• 34:55Steven Rinella?

  But if you're hunting your own place.

• 34:56Speaker 03

  If you're hunting your own place and it's above a certain acreage, you just go get your tags.

• 35:02Steven Rinella?

  I can't say I have a problem with that. I don't know. I didn't know that. It surprises me. That's fine. Whatever.

• 35:07Speaker 03

  Well, yeah, it's like.

• 35:09Steven Rinella?

  Do you know that in Wisconsin, if you're on your own land, you're exempt from small game regulations? Or something like that? I think you can hunt squirrels year round.

• 35:17Speaker 03

  Really?

• 35:17Steven Rinella?

  Ah, I think so. Doug's probably having a heart attack on a skid steer right now.

• 35:23Speaker 03

  Take a seat, Doug. Breathe, Doug.

• 35:29Steven Rinella?

  He goes on. Are you ready for this? Okay, so we've established this. Resident landowner, Ohio. Okay, all that. A non-resident, you tracking? A non-resident Ohio landowner.

• 35:42Speaker 03

  Mm-hmm.

• 35:43Steven Rinella?

  And spouse and children may hunt their property without a license or deer tags. If the non-resident state of residence.

• 35:54Speaker 03

  My God. I feel like we need to draw this out.

• 35:57Steven Rinella?

  Yeah, okay. I get it, but I'm just okay. We've established that.

• 36:05Steven Rinella?

  More than eight times we've established, if you're in Ohio, you're a resident, you're hunting your own pad, you've got more than five acres, you've still got to abide by the hunting laws, but you don't need a tag. Now. The state of Ohio does not require resident landowners to purchase a hunting license or deer tag to hunt their property.

• 36:27Steven Rinella?

  Okay?

• 36:27Speaker 03

  Mm-hmm.

• 36:30Steven Rinella?

  I already read that. Oh my God, it's screwing itself so bad.

• 36:34Speaker 03

  The non-resident part.

• 36:37Steven Rinella?

  Screwing it up bad. I keep thinking about running for political office, but I'd have a bad time in the debate.

• 36:43Speaker 03

  You'd be like, buddy, hold on.

• 36:48Speaker 03

  I lost myself.

• 36:49Steven Rinella?

  When they give you 30 seconds, I'd be like, ah. That's not gonna work for me. Okay, ready? Okay, we've established that. Now, going on. A non-resident Ohio landowner and spouse and children may hunt their property without a license or deer tags. If the non-resident state of residence allows non-resident landowners to hunt their land without a license or deer tags.

• 37:19Speaker 03

  Okay, so if I lived in Pennsylvania and they allow that same thing, which they don't, but-

• 37:27Steven Rinella?

  They'd have to allow a dude in Ohio.

• 37:30Speaker 03

  But I own property in Ohio. I would be allowed to do the same thing in Ohio. Because Ohio has that same rule.

• 37:40Steven Rinella?

  Does Pennsylvania charge a non-resident a deer license if the non-resident owns land in Pennsylvania? That's what he's saying.

• 37:49Speaker 03

  Well,

• 37:51Speaker 03

  I mean, Pennsylvania doesn't do that anyway.

• 37:52Steven Rinella?

  Okay, then they're out.

• 37:55Speaker 03

  Okay, yeah. God, that's confusing.

• 37:57Steven Rinella?

  Well, he goes on.

• 37:58Speaker 03

  Oh, geez.

• 38:01Steven Rinella?

  To the best of my knowledge.

• 38:05Steven Rinella?

  Oh, nope, back up.

• 38:08Steven Rinella?

  As a Michigan resident. He's going, is everybody tracking?

• 38:12Speaker 03

  Oh, yeah, he's a Michigan resident.

• 38:14Steven Rinella?

  This is like a tongue, this is an intellectual-

• 38:15Speaker 03

  He's a Michigan resident who owns property in Ohio.

• 38:18Steven Rinella?

  I don't know that yet. Yes, he is.

• 38:22Steven Rinella?

  Okay, everybody tracking?

• 38:23Speaker 03

  Yep.

• 38:23Steven Rinella?

  Everybody's tracking.

• 38:24Speaker 03

  Yep.

• 38:25Steven Rinella?

  Listen, this kind of stuff keeps you from getting dementia later in life.

• 38:29Speaker 03

  Or other things, but yeah.

• 38:31Steven Rinella?

  No, just little brain twisters.

• 38:32Speaker 03

  Yeah, okay.

• 38:32Steven Rinella?

  As a Michigan resident, where residents- He's go, he goes on. As a Michigan resident, where residents, non-residents, landowners, and non-landowners must have a hunting license and deer tag and an Ohio landowner.

• 38:50Steven Rinella?

  Let me cut the parenthetical out.

• 38:51Speaker 03

  You read that too fast.

• 38:53Steven Rinella?

  As a Michigan resident and an Ohio landowner, my family and I do not benefit from this reciprocity.

• 39:01Speaker 03

  Cause Michigan doesn't allow it.

• 39:03Steven Rinella?

  Cause Michigan doesn't let non-residents who happen to own a place in Michigan hunt in Michigan without their Michigan deer license. This has chapped this guy's ass enough that he's done some research. To the best of my knowledge, the only states residents that benefit from this reciprocity arrangement are Ohio and no other state.

• 39:36Steven Rinella?

  They've created a reciprocity rule that doesn't apply to anyone.

• 39:43Steven Rinella?

  If you can prove this man wrong. That's my kind of reciprocity law. Makes you seem super lenient, but in fact, when you get into the details, no one applies.

• 39:53Speaker 03

  Yeah, it's not catered to anyone. Yeah.

• 39:56Speaker 03

  Huh. Maybe it was.

• 39:59Speaker 04

  Well, I'd also be curious to know as this Michigan resident, how hard is it for him as a landowner in Ohio to get a tag in Ohio? Like if it's still like over the counter.

• 40:08Speaker 03

  Probably every year.

• 40:09Steven Rinella?

  Yeah, he's got to pay a couple hundred bucks.

• 40:10Speaker 04

  Well, yeah, but like, uh, why is he complaining?

• 40:13Steven Rinella?

  Because he washes your panties and the dollars take care of themselves.

• 40:18Speaker 04

  Fair, fine.

• 40:20Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 40:21Steven Rinella?

  He goes on.

• 40:23Speaker 03

  Oh, boy.

• 40:24Steven Rinella?

  No, it's just, he totally changed the subject.

• 40:26Speaker 03

  Oh, okay.

• 40:26Steven Rinella?

  But it's not a non sequitur because he put down PS. Which sort of announces it as, you know, you're announcing it's a non sequitur. PS, not related, and he also says not related to the above.

• 40:40Steven Rinella?

  PS, not related to the above, but another Ohio reciprocal agreement. This is different. This is interesting management and we'll get, we'll talk about this because I like this, but it's different. Ohio and West Virginia allow residents of either state to hunt waterfowl and fish on the Ohio River without having a license from the other state. That's common.

• 41:02Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 41:03Steven Rinella?

  That's common where, for instance, uh, New York and Pennsylvania and the Delaware River, they make a, instead of creating, let's say you have one situation where Pennsylvania says you're allowed six smallmouth a day. And New York says you're allowed four small mouths a day.

• 41:21Steven Rinella?

  And you got this river that's, you know, shoot a bow across.

• 41:26Steven Rinella?

  You create all kinds of problems. So what states will often do in those situations is they'll come and make a, the states will agree. They'll make a river bag limit, a river set of regulations and allow anyone from the bordering states. To fish the river.

• 41:44Speaker 03

  Yep.

• 41:46Steven Rinella?

  An interesting spot where this little bit of reciprocity does not exist is the St. Mary's River, which divides Michigan for, there's probably many other places. The St. Mary's, which divides Michigan with Canada, with Ontario. You need to pay attention where you are. Cause there's a magical line. Running.

• 42:09Steven Rinella?

  Out in the middle of that stuff. And you gotta know what side of that line you're on, even in your boat.

• 42:14Speaker 03

  How do they enforce that? I want to say that's the thing on the Mississippi too.

• 42:17Steven Rinella?

  Then what, you know what, there are some spots in the Mississippi like that. Cause remember a bass?

• 42:21Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 42:22Steven Rinella?

  A professional bass guy? Got disqualified from a tournament because he had strayed across some invisible line and was actually fishing a different state's waters.

• 42:30Speaker 03

  Yep.

• 42:31Steven Rinella?

  And they had a different bag limit in those states or something like that.

• 42:33Speaker 03

  Yep. Yeah, I think that was Paul Nick.

• 42:35Steven Rinella?

  But I like it when they come together and do those little deals. Right?

• 42:40Speaker 03

  What about, uh?

• 42:43Speaker 03

  Like? People fishing Lake Michigan from the Michigan side, but make a big run. Is there, is there?

• 42:50Steven Rinella?

  Say it again?

• 42:51Speaker 03

  Like if you're fishing Lake Michigan? And you launch? In Michigan, but make a big run and you're like closer to Wisconsin.

• 43:01Steven Rinella?

  I don't know how, I don't know how Michigan and Wisconsin do it.

• 43:03Speaker 03

  Gotcha.

• 43:04Steven Rinella?

  That's a great question. We never fish that far out. That's a lot, that's a ways.

• 43:08Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 43:08Steven Rinella?

  I got buddies that do. I don't know what they, I don't know if you got, I'm guessing there on that lake of that size, I'm guessing you need to get a license when you cross the state line. And the state line runs out in the water.

• 43:18Speaker 03

  Mm-hmm.

• 43:22Steven Rinella?

  Here's a guy on the same subject.

• 43:25Steven Rinella?

  Ready for this?

• 43:27Speaker 04

  Yep.

• 43:28Steven Rinella?

  Uh, he says, he was listening to the podcast this morning in his tree stand and Kildare. And he says, take that for what it's worth.

• 43:39Steven Rinella?

  Then he goes on to say, towards the end, they, meaning we, mentioned a write-in where a guy complained about being a landowner and having to pay non-resident fees. I remember this guy.

• 43:53Steven Rinella?

  He's like, how in the hell can I have?

• 43:56Steven Rinella?

  Uh, he, he, he's griping because he's like, I live in whatever, I don't know what it is, Michigan, and I own a place in Ohio. I shouldn't have to pay non-resident fees in Ohio. But think about the can of worms you're opening up there. Right? Like, okay, do you want to file taxes in both states? Do you want to, you know, I mean, there's, there's like, there's a thousand things, right? That you would probably not like if that was true.

• 44:22Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 44:24Steven Rinella?

  Uh,

• 44:26Steven Rinella?

  well, he, you know, that, I'm, I'm not giving him full credit. He does pay taxes. He pays land taxes there. But, um, the way the whole country's set up, you gotta be a resident of a state. It's just how, it's just, it's hard to get around that. Um, he goes on to say this, uh, towards the end, they mentioned a write-in where a guy complained about being a landowner and having to pay non-resident fees. I do the same thing. However, I live in Tennessee and hunting Alabama. I wish the roles were reversed, but if you're born in Tennessee, you can apply every year for non-resident native

• 45:04Steven Rinella?

  to Tennessee licenses. Damn.

• 45:07Speaker 04

  Hmm.

• 45:08Steven Rinella?

  Idaho has that thing.

• 45:10Speaker 04

  The lifetime.

• 45:11Steven Rinella?

  Yeah. Idaho had it for, it's no longer the way, but you could get grandfathered in on it. At, once upon a time, and a lot of dudes took advantage of this. They knew they weren't going to stay in Idaho. I could name names. And one of them likes to complain about anyone getting any kind of benefit. Like anytime someone draws a tag, he's like down on them. But this individual who you guys know and love. Ran out and bought his lifetime Idaho license before moving away from Idaho. So that he could continue to dodge fees and hunt as a resident in Ohio.

• 45:49Speaker 03

  I thought you can still do that.

• 45:50Steven Rinella?

  He cries foul at any advantage that anybody gets when it comes to getting a tag. He wishes he got.

• 46:00Speaker 03

  I thought you can still do that in Idaho.

• 46:02Steven Rinella?

  I think they got rid. I don't think it works that way anymore. But if you said, oh, I drew a bighorn tag in Idaho. He's going to give you a big old eye roll. Must be nice.

• 46:16Speaker 04

  Is this, is this the same fellow that's also not very lucky when it comes to drawing tags?

• 46:21Steven Rinella?

  Way it way it's taken, it's gradually taken a toll on him.

• 46:25Speaker 04

  Gotcha. Yep.

• 46:26Steven Rinella?

  It's taken, it's taken a psychological toll on him. But they did that. They did that. Montana has a coming home to hunt.

• 46:38Speaker 04

  I can't remember who I was talking to about that.

• 46:40Steven Rinella?

  It's like if you like, it's meant to be that like, let's say you have a family and you're, you're, you have kids and your, your kids. Go away. It gives advantage to your kids to get tags. So you can come home to hunt, the coming home to hunt.

• 46:53Speaker 04

  Is that still like an application process or is it like, kind of like an OTC?

• 46:58Steven Rinella?

  I think it's in a different, I, I don't know.

• 47:00Speaker 03

  I think that's just a different price.

• 47:02Steven Rinella?

  Different, different price.

• 47:04Speaker 03

  I think so.

• 47:08Steven Rinella?

  Uh, this gentleman says, uh, um, attach this email's application. It would be cool to see more states do this. Also y'all joked about voting in two different states. Oddly enough, my former police chief wasn't indicted for doing that and several other charges earlier this year. Was or wasn't?

• 47:31Speaker 03

  Was not.

• 47:34Steven Rinella?

  I think he must've meant was.

• 47:36Speaker 03

  Probably.

• 47:41Steven Rinella?

  When that came, that came up on, when we did, I think we did the episode, yeah. Remember we interviewed, were you there when we interviewed the women that got mauled by the otter?

• 47:48Speaker 03

  No.

• 47:52Steven Rinella?

  I was telling a story on that one where I was, um, in a restaurant overhearing people next to me. There's a huge table full of people and they were actually from an animal rights organization.

• 48:04Speaker 03

  Uh huh.

• 48:05Steven Rinella?

  They're having a dinner, a Bozeman based animal rights organization.

• 48:10Steven Rinella?

  And I'm overhearing them and there's a guy plotting.

• 48:14Steven Rinella?

  Like I got caught by my wife because I wasn't paying attention what she was telling me because I was so engrossed by what they were talking about. And, uh, he was plotting. He lived in Illinois. But he wanted to be able to vote in a swing state.

• 48:30Steven Rinella?

  So was switching all of his stuff around to be able to go vote in Michigan.

• 48:35Speaker 03

  Wow.

• 48:37Steven Rinella?

  Cause he wanted to vote in a swing state, um, because he wanted to vote against Trump. So then I said, when Trump says the election was rigged, I was like, well, there's one.

• 48:46Speaker 03

  Yeah. It ain't zero.

• 48:50Steven Rinella?

  It ain't zero.

• 48:53Steven Rinella?

  Uh, man, this guy.

• 48:59Steven Rinella?

  He, even though we said, we're no longer going to talk about pre-chewed food. He's like asking if there could be one last little thing.

• 49:11Steven Rinella?

  No.

• 49:16Speaker 03

  Well, that's an in-depth.

• 49:19Speaker 03

  Deal.

• 49:20Steven Rinella?

  Man, he's got, it's a lot in here.

• 49:23Speaker 03

  He's got bullet points.

• 49:29Steven Rinella?

  Okay. There's a guy.

• 49:32Steven Rinella?

  It's a tough one. There's a guy that wrote in, um,

• 49:38Steven Rinella?

  and he had some things to say about making babies eat solid food and the advantages of breastfeeding.

• 49:47Steven Rinella?

  Then another guy wrote in and said, what does he know? He's a, he's a DDS. Okay.

• 49:53Speaker 03

  What's DDS?

• 49:53Steven Rinella?

  Dennis. And he laid out all these credentials and talked about how this guy doesn't know what he's talking about.

• 50:01Steven Rinella?

  Now he's got a rebuttal.

• 50:06Speaker 03

  When people say, what is, what do, what do they know? He's just a dentist. How do you know that guy is, isn't a hobbyist, just like researches to shit at a

• 50:14Speaker 04

  Oh, yeah.

• 50:15Speaker 03

  Some other topic when he goes home?

• 50:19Steven Rinella?

  Sorry?

• 50:20Speaker 04

  Credibility.

• 50:21Speaker 03

  Yeah. When people's like, what, what do he know? He's a dentist. What if people don't know that, like, maybe his hobby is going home and researching that kind of shit?

• 50:27Steven Rinella?

  Well, here's where he came out swinging.

• 50:29Speaker 03

  I don't, I don't have a degree in hunting whitetail box, but.

• 50:35Speaker 04

  You know, a lot of that.

• 50:35Steven Rinella?

  But it's like, it's, it's sort of like a little bit generally, it'd be like generally accepted. Like if we're having an argument about George Washington. Okay. And you're like, oh, he chopped down that cherry tree, you know, and lied about it. And then a guy's like, well, I have a, a PhD in American history and I did my dissertation on the, my, you know, my, my thesis was on the veracity of the claim that George Washington chopped down a cherry tree and lied about it. Now, if I'm hearing the, this conversation,

• 51:08Speaker 03

  Mm hmm.

• 51:09Steven Rinella?

  I'm probably going to be looking to the PhD cherry chopper guy.

• 51:13Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 51:14Steven Rinella?

  To maybe have a little more intel about that occurrence.

• 51:17Speaker 03

  I understand that.

• 51:20Speaker 03

  But I, I, I think sometimes people get a little carried away with.

• 51:24Steven Rinella?

  Sometimes, yes, but in some areas, th- this guy was saying, hey, man, it's better to breastfeed babies. And it's better to pre chew food and give them meat and give them tough stuff to chew on.

• 51:36Speaker 03

  Mm hmm.

• 51:36Steven Rinella?

  Chewy steaks and whatnot.

• 51:38Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 51:38Steven Rinella?

  And that we're creating muscular problems by giving babies all this soft food and those little squeeze bottles.

• 51:44Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 51:46Steven Rinella?

  This other guy writes in being like, you know, here's the deal. I'm the real expert. And that's all BS is what he says.

• 51:54Speaker 03

  Hmm.

• 51:54Steven Rinella?

  Okay.

• 51:55Speaker 03

  The dentist said that.

• 51:56Steven Rinella?

  No, this other dentist.

• 51:57Speaker 03

  Gotcha.

• 51:58Steven Rinella?

  Now this first dentist comes back swinging.

• 52:04Steven Rinella?

  Cause this other guy said his kid wants to fight that guy's kid.

• 52:07Speaker 03

  All right, let's hear it.

• 52:08Speaker 04

  Dang.

• 52:10Speaker 03

  I'll tell you what dentist that thinks, right?

• 52:15Steven Rinella?

  It's so, it's so complicated. Do we really, do I really want to get into this?

• 52:21Speaker 03

  I probably agree with the dentist who's all about eating deer meat and drinking milk.

• 52:26Steven Rinella?

  He starts out with a little dig. Cause this guy was saying in the end of it, he made a joke like, hey, my kid will fight your kid anytime. Okay. Now that, so the first dentist now writes in and he dresses his letter to the guy. So it's Max on one side and Matthew on the other side. Max wrote in saying, you should give your babies tough deer meat to help their jaws develop. And when their jaws develop and their musculature develops, it helps them in all kinds of ways throughout life.

• 52:55Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 52:55Steven Rinella?

  This other guy's saying that's horseshit. And that guy's name is Matthew. The first guy's Max. So now

• 53:00Speaker 03

  Max, Max.

• 53:01Steven Rinella?

  So now Matthew writes, dear honorable, honorable and distinguished colleague, Matthew.

• 53:08Steven Rinella?

  It's no shock that your baby wants to fight mine. Kids are wild, but here's the kicker. There's a connection between sleep disordered breathing and ADHD in children. ADHD's hallmarks, hyperactivity and emotional chaos can make kiddos more prone to throw hands in the playpen.

• 53:32Speaker 03

  Hmm. A little slight.

• 53:34Steven Rinella?

  Sticks the knife right in the ribs before he even gets started.

• 53:41Steven Rinella?

  He goes on, now you might be asking, what does sleep breathing have to do with my kid's weak jaw? Excellent question. Research shows a high prevalence of malleolclusion, underdeveloped jaws in children with obstructive sleep apnea compared to the control group. Simply put, your kid's jaw might be slacking and their sleep and mood might be paying the price.

• 54:11Steven Rinella?

  And he goes, next, I imagine you saying, you still haven't proven that my baby's diet of squeeze bag peas and rubber nipples is ruining their jaw. And you're right, every kid responds differently, but here's what research tells us. Breastfeeding is a positive factor that seems to reduce the incidence of posterior crossbite, skeletal class two and dystocclusion and primary mixed dentition.

• 54:35Speaker 03

  I knew that.

• 54:37Steven Rinella?

  I didn't.

• 54:41Steven Rinella?

  Animals raised on soft foods show more rotated and displaced teeth crowded premolars and absolutely and relatively narrower dental arches.

• 54:56Steven Rinella?

  Get this, middle aged adults in rural Kentucky had better occlusion than younger folks. The younger generation grew up eating commercially processed foods while their elders chomped on coarse homemade fare.

• 55:22Steven Rinella?

  And he goes on with a bunch of disclaimers. Breastfeeding is not as easy, feeding kids coarser foods feels like a battle, we're all doing the best we can. But he ends with this, here's my advice, chew up some venison, spit it into your baby's bowl and let the kid take a nap.

• 55:41Speaker 03

  That sounds like great advice.

• 55:42Steven Rinella?

  Yeah. And then he has all the citations, Dirk, if you want me to forward them to you. Yeah, that'd be nice. Is this, is this a side of Stir in the Pot? Is this an intro into that? That series? Yeah. Stir in the Pot. That's my next show, TV show, Stir in the Pot.

• 56:02Steven Rinella?

  You know what this thing I said? Yeah, I'll be like, hey, you know, I was, uh, I'll call Dirk's girlfriend, you know?

• 56:10Steven Rinella?

  And I'll be, hey, I was checking in.

• 56:11Speaker 06

  This is Stir in the Pot.

• 56:15Steven Rinella?

  That's kind of weird thing Dirk, I just can't stop thinking about this thing Dirk said the other night.

• 56:23Steven Rinella?

  Anyways, I'll let you go.

• 56:26Speaker 03

  Want to say hi?

• 56:27Steven Rinella?

  Tell Dirk hi.

• 56:28Speaker 03

  Hope all's well.

• 56:31Steven Rinella?

  Have a great night. Has Dirk been feeling okay? He just said something kind of strange about you the other night. Everything good? Uh, no, no.

• 56:41Speaker 06

  I wouldn't worry about it.

• 56:42Steven Rinella?

  If everything's fine, I don't know, you know, I don't want to betray his trust.

• 56:45Speaker 03

  Got to go, another call coming.

• 56:47Steven Rinella?

  Do me a favor, don't tell my call.

• 56:52Speaker 06

  This is Steven Rinella signing off for Stir in the Pot.

• 56:58Steven Rinella?

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• 57:42Steven Rinella?

  in categories you choose, so it's easy to save. So what are you saving for? Maybe you've got your eyes on a new truck, or a new boat, or you're saving up for your first house. Download the One Pay app or visit onepay.com for banking that gives you more for what matters.

• 57:59Speaker 05

  One Pay is a financial technology company, not a bank. Banking services provided by Coastal Community Bank or Lead Bank, members FDIC. Cash back is earned as points. Go to onepay.com/rewards/terms for redemption options and additional details.

• 58:14Steven Rinella?

  I'll tell you one thing that binds together all of the vehicles in the Ronella fleet at my house, they all have WeatherTech floor liners. When we get a new car, the first thing we do, out with the junky factory carpet mats, in with WeatherTech. They really are the best. They're indestructible. You can pull them out, hose them off. It doesn't matter what happens on the floor of your rig. If you've got WeatherTech, you're going to be covered. I love these things. If you're looking to get a great gift for someone, especially if they're a big time outdoors kind of person, like if you really want to do them a favor, get them some WeatherTech floor liners for their truck or car. They'll have a way easier time keeping their rig nice and clean, and they'll get years and years of use out of a set.

• 58:59Steven Rinella?

  Visit weathertech.com for your holiday shopping today.

• 59:07Steven Rinella?

  You know, I don't know. I mean, I want to talk about the muzzleloader, but muzzleloader... muzzleloader hunting, but I don't, I don't have, just talk about muzzleloader hunting Seth, you're an expert. How many do you kill with a muzzleloader Seth?

• 59:17Speaker 03

  Well, at one point in time, I killed more whitetails with a muzzleloader than a rifle.

• 59:21Steven Rinella?

  All the flintlock?

• 59:22Speaker 03

  Yeah. But I surpass that now.

• 59:27Speaker 03

  I don't know. Five, si- six, seven, eight, nine, 10, I don't know.

• 59:33Steven Rinella?

  A handful.

• 59:33Speaker 03

  Handful, yeah.

• 59:34Steven Rinella?

  All bucks?

• 59:35Speaker 03

  Nope. Not all bucks.

• 59:37Steven Rinella?

  Some bucks.

• 59:38Speaker 03

  Some bucks, mostly does.

• 59:40Steven Rinella?

  Yeah. How many times have you dropped the hammer on a buck and the gun didn't go off, or you messed up something?

• 59:45Speaker 03

  Several. Yeah. Yeah, mo- no, go ahead.

• 59:49Speaker 06

  Well, how often was it a drive versus a, like, steel hunter?

• 59:52Speaker 03

  Mo- most drives, yeah.

• 59:54Speaker 06

  Most drives?

• 59:55Speaker 03

  I'm gonna say, maybe all drives. Yeah, I think all the deer I've ever killed with a flintlock has been from a deer drive. And a lot of times, it's me doing the driving.

• 1:00:06Speaker 06

  With the rifle?

• 1:00:07Speaker 03

  Rather than, than watching.

• 1:00:08Steven Rinella?

  And you double bump them?

• 1:00:11Speaker 03

  You just, well, a lot of times, you, yeah, yeah, so you, you jump them up and they go down, get shot at, and come back.

• 1:00:20Steven Rinella?

  So they're on the move by that point?

• 1:00:22Speaker 03

  Yeah, well, sometimes, yeah.

• 1:00:24Steven Rinella?

  Yeah. Uh, you know, I don't think I've even, no, I have one time, I haven't tracked much with a round ball.

• 1:00:33Speaker 03

  What do you mean, like, blood track?

• 1:00:34Steven Rinella?

  I haven't blood tracked stuff that has hit by a round ball.

• 1:00:37Speaker 03

  Oh.

• 1:00:37Steven Rinella?

  When we say a round ball, like, we're talking about, th- there's, there's muzzleloaders and there's flintlocks, and flintlocks, it's a whole different ballgame. You know, because muzzleloaders now, they're, they're pretty sophisticated, you got inline muzzleloaders with special primers and everything's kind of sealed and doesn't get wet. But a flintlock's hard to hunt, hard to learn, you know?

• 1:00:54Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:00:55Steven Rinella?

  And, um, one thing about, when, when you're loading a flintlock, you're taking, um, like, a lead sphere, you know, like a musket ball. And putting it down there, it's not conical shaped.

• 1:01:04Speaker 03

  Nope.

• 1:01:05Steven Rinella?

  It's just a ball of lead. So when you're hitting a deer with that thing, um, when you recover that ball, what's that end up looking like?

• 1:01:14Speaker 03

  Trying to think if I recovered one.

• 1:01:20Speaker 03

  I don't remember ever recovering one.

• 1:01:21Steven Rinella?

  Does it mushroom out? Or does it just punch a hole?

• 1:01:26Speaker 03

  I remember one time I shot a deer. Like right behind the shoulder. You know, double lunged and it was like it was the biggest blood trail I've ever.

• 1:01:37Steven Rinella?

  Seen with that round.

• 1:01:38Speaker 03

  With the round ball. Yeah.

• 1:01:40Steven Rinella?

  Yeah.

• 1:01:40Speaker 03

  I'd love to see, I've never seen one like shot into ballistic gel or anything. So I honestly don't know what it does in there.

• 1:01:47Steven Rinella?

  Hmm.

• 1:01:48Speaker 03

  But yeah, I don't think I've ever recovered one.

• 1:01:51Steven Rinella?

  They just punch out and go.

• 1:01:53Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:01:53Steven Rinella?

  Go about their business.

• 1:01:54Speaker 03

  Yep.

• 1:01:55Steven Rinella?

  It'd be interesting to check out.

• 1:01:58Speaker 03

  Yeah, see what it does in ballistic gel.

• 1:02:01Steven Rinella?

  We should do that. We should shoot a bunch of flintlocks and, and, uh. Shoot flintlocks in the, I mean, the ballistic gel doesn't know that it was a flintlock, but you know what I'm saying?

• 1:02:09Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:02:10Steven Rinella?

  Shoot a bunch of black powder flintlocks in the ballistic gel.

• 1:02:13Speaker 03

  Yep.

• 1:02:13Steven Rinella?

  And see what actually is going on.

• 1:02:15Speaker 06

  I was surprised how soft, what's the non round ball one we were using?

• 1:02:20Steven Rinella?

  It's just a conical or a prelude maxi ball.

• 1:02:23Speaker 06

  Yeah, the conical, how soft it was when you guys were. Ramrod in it, it would.

• 1:02:29Steven Rinella?

  That's lead for you, man.

• 1:02:30Speaker 06

  Yeah, that's true. Yeah.

• 1:02:31Steven Rinella?

  Gets misshapen.

• 1:02:33Speaker 06

  Mm hmm.

• 1:02:33Steven Rinella?

  Yeah. Um. Yeah, there's not a hell of a lot to say. It's kind of got my ass handed to me on the muzzleloader hunting. Lot of close calls.

• 1:02:42Speaker 03

  Yeah, it's tough.

• 1:02:43Steven Rinella?

  If I hadn't like. I announced a family moratorium on killing mule deer does. I had a lot of opportunities to shoot a mule deer.

• 1:02:49Speaker 03

  Oh, yeah, you could have killed a lot of those.

• 1:02:50Steven Rinella?

  But, um. Hunter, that man is tough. Hunting a spot I'm not, hunting a spot I haven't hunted deer on hard before. I kind of would go about it different now. Now that I kind of understand how they do what they do and what their tolerances are.

• 1:03:03Speaker 03

  Yeah. The thing about, about muzzle, like flintlock muzzleloader hunting is. There's a set of challenges to get close to a deer. With get to get within range and then once you get in range and it comes time. To shoot, there's like a. Another, you open up the door and there's another set of challenges there.

• 1:03:23Steven Rinella?

  Yeah. We, the, the hammer cocking on those things, we the other day crept up on one, uh, crept up on a mule deer and couldn't really determine, but it seems like the hammer cocking.

• 1:03:39Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:03:39Steven Rinella?

  Spooked it. It's loud. What I started doing now is I cock it ahead of time. But pulling the set triggers loud.

• 1:03:47Speaker 03

  Yeah. Yeah. The cocks, the pulling the hammer backs loud, the set triggers loud. And then just like these evenings, the, the few evenings we've been sitting out here, it's just so quiet. Like the wind dies down.

• 1:04:01Steven Rinella?

  Yeah.

• 1:04:02Speaker 03

  And you could hear a pin drop.

• 1:04:05Speaker 06

  Would muzzle loaders hunt with the set trigger or if everything's just like down to the hair trigger?

• 1:04:10Steven Rinella?

  I don't know. I've never, in all the reading I've done about hunting with flintlocks, I don't, I have no idea what. You must have, because even when you're like bushwhacking another person, there's no way you were cocking that.

• 1:04:20Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 1:04:20Steven Rinella?

  Thing back.

• 1:04:21Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 1:04:24Speaker 03

  Yeah, I wonder, I wonder what they did back in the day.

• 1:04:28Speaker 06

  I kept thinking of that last Mohican scene, this whole trip.

• 1:04:32Steven Rinella?

  Oh.

• 1:04:33Speaker 06

  Yeah, he's running, he cuts off the elk.

• 1:04:37Steven Rinella?

  There's a thing that, that about those flintlocks, like to give you a sense of how stealthy people were, there's a thing, we talked about this in the, we talked about this in our long hunters, uh, audiobook.

• 1:04:50Steven Rinella?

  That they would, you would more be looking when you're trying to find someone or check for people going through the woods. You'd be more looking for the barrel.

• 1:04:59Speaker 06

  What do you mean?

• 1:05:00Steven Rinella?

  Looking for that big, long, straight barrel.

• 1:05:02Speaker 06

  Oh, that would be.

• 1:05:02Steven Rinella?

  You're more likely to see the barrel than the dude holding it.

• 1:05:05Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 1:05:06Steven Rinella?

  And you'd look for that straight.

• 1:05:07Speaker 06

  Straight lines.

• 1:05:08Steven Rinella?

  You'd look for the straight line, try to, in, in order to try to find somebody.

• 1:05:12Speaker 06

  Dang. Is, is your.

• 1:05:14Steven Rinella?

  So those, there's no way someone's taking stealth that seriously and then it's going click.

• 1:05:18Speaker 06

  Click.

• 1:05:21Steven Rinella?

  He's probably laying there at that set trigger engaged.

• 1:05:23Speaker 03

  Yeah, yeah, just breathe on that.

• 1:05:25Steven Rinella?

  You know, and just protecting it so it doesn't nothing breathes on it. I've two times muffed up messing with the set trigger.

• 1:05:33Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:05:34Steven Rinella?

  Once hunting with you and once here. Muffed up like hitting the set trigger and then getting your finger around because once that, once you do the set trigger, that thing is on. I don't know what it is. It's ounces.

• 1:05:45Speaker 03

  Yeah, it's hair trigger.

• 1:05:46Steven Rinella?

  So getting your finger, you definitely can't be doing with a glove. Getting the set trigger and then bringing your finger up and it's a weird little space and just you just, and also two times into the air.

• 1:05:58Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:06:01Steven Rinella?

  Before I even got the thing down. Cause you're just trying to find the trigger, you know, and it's got that little, that little teeny, because there's a trigger guard and it's got two triggers in it. So picture your trigger guard has two triggers, one big, one little. And you do the one, there's not a lot of room in there for, there's not a lot of room in front of the regular trigger.

• 1:06:19Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:06:20Steven Rinella?

  So even just trying to get your finger up in the right neighborhood shoots the damn gun off for me because I don't do it enough.

• 1:06:24Speaker 03

  Well, we need to get you is a, like a, the, I forget what the Thompson Center used to make one called the Pennsylvania Hunter. And it was just one trigger.

• 1:06:35Steven Rinella?

  Well, here's what I'm getting. I'm broadcasting this out into the world because and I'm willing to pay for it. Let me know if you're my man.

• 1:06:46Steven Rinella?

  If you're a gunmaker. I'm getting a, here's what I want. Because, because the rules where I'm at. I need an exposed hammer percussion cap, not inline. Exposed hammer percussion cap, single trigger muzzleloader.

• 1:07:04Speaker 03

  Yep. There's some good muzzleloader makers out there.

• 1:07:07Steven Rinella?

  I want to shoot, I want to shoot Pirate X or, or Triple Seven. And I would, I'd like to shoot conicals out of it.

• 1:07:16Steven Rinella?

  Just one last thing, cause it like normally when you load like in the old oldie days when you load a flintlock, you pour your powder charge down the barrel and then you gotta take a piece of what's called a patch. So the ball doesn't grab the, the ball doesn't grab the lands in the barrel that well. So what you do is you wrap the ball in a greased patch and that greased patch is kinda like your wadding or like it, you know, yeah. And that is what helps throw a spiral on it when it comes out, that patch. So if you shoot these, there's, they make these bullets that you don't need the patch.

• 1:07:49Speaker 06

  Yep.

• 1:07:50Steven Rinella?

  I want a gun and I don't want any bullshit someone saying like, oh, it's, you know, sub MOA, whatever. Like, you know, peep sight, single trigger, shoots conical, the barrel's spiraled for conical, twisted for conical, percussion cap.

• 1:08:10Speaker 06

  There you go.

• 1:08:11Steven Rinella?

  That's what I want.

• 1:08:12Speaker 06

  How far are they shooting? I remember you mentioned it. How far are they shooting modern muzzleloaderers that would be under regulation in Montana? Like the Bees and Eas?

• 1:08:22Steven Rinella?

  Well, the way they got the reg spelled here.

• 1:08:24Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 1:08:24Steven Rinella?

  You know, a hundred yards, cause you can't use the optic.

• 1:08:26Speaker 06

  Yeah. You can't use like the fancy inlines here. So that's the limiter state to state.

• 1:08:33Steven Rinella?

  Also, an optic is real helpful.

• 1:08:34Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 1:08:35Steven Rinella?

  An optic helps you out a lot.

• 1:08:36Speaker 06

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:08:37Steven Rinella?

  When we did, when we did long, in our long hunters audio book about the Daniel Boone and the Hyde hunters, like I, I'd always had this question about how good we're guys, like how good really were guys with, with flintlocks?

• 1:08:48Speaker 06

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:08:49Steven Rinella?

  You know, cause in the mythology, there's like, you know, old ticklicker, like it could shoot a tick off a deer, shooting balls and hitting a hatchet blade and splitting the ball and killing two guys, you know, like whatever.

• 1:09:01Speaker 06

  Hell, yeah.

• 1:09:01Steven Rinella?

  All these accounts, Lass and Mohicans, these like 300 yard running shots through the woods, you know, hitting guys, like how good they were. So when we were working on that, um,

• 1:09:15Steven Rinella?

  Me and Randall got into the question of like trying to find accounts of like what really could be done with the flintlock.

• 1:09:19Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:09:20Steven Rinella?

  You know, and um.

• 1:09:24Steven Rinella?

  Similarly, now that we're coming out with our mountain man one, we're kind of like, how really were they catching beaver? Like, like, what were the sets? Like, how did they catch beaver in mountain man?

• 1:09:32Speaker 03

  Beyond the lore, kind of.

• 1:09:33Steven Rinella?

  Yeah, like beyond the like, oh, they did this, that and the other thing. And you're reading like, I don't think that's what they did. You know, it doesn't make sense. And I don't think they were splitting shots against hatchets and killing two guys like waiting for like the Indian to hold his hatchet up and then he hit his blade and killed.

• 1:09:46Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:09:48Steven Rinella?

  So there's these shooting contests that we talk about in that long hunter piece. You can just go buy it in the, you know, it's a, it's a audio book. It's a, it's, you can purchase it.

• 1:10:01Steven Rinella?

  There's these guys called, uh, there's these real bad, bad dudes, um, Brady's Rangers. And like, these are bad dudes.

• 1:10:10Speaker 03

  Like bad, like badass or bad, like they're.

• 1:10:14Steven Rinella?

  Both.

• 1:10:15Speaker 03

  Doing bad. Outlaw.

• 1:10:16Steven Rinella?

  There were some bad dudes. They were like, he had some, so they were like. Along the Ohio River in the mid 1700s. When tribes would cross like Shawnee and people would come from the north across the river and raid settlements in West Virginia.

• 1:10:32Speaker 03

  Yep.

• 1:10:32Steven Rinella?

  Raid settlements in Kentucky. These, he had this collection of, he had this collection of woodsmen and hunters. That he formed into this like, kind of almost like this little bit of a, it was almost like a paramilitary special forces unit.

• 1:10:48Speaker 03

  Yep.

• 1:10:49Steven Rinella?

  And they would get on their trail. And track them. And they'd track them back across the Ohio or they'd ambush them like they'd find canoes.

• 1:11:01Steven Rinella?

  Part hidden, they'd like the, the, the Shawnee would sink canoes now and then like they'd cross the Ohio and sink their canoes. And then go raid. So these Rangers would.

• 1:11:12Steven Rinella?

  Wait at river crossings and stuff and they raised some hell.

• 1:11:16Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 1:11:16Steven Rinella?

  But they oftentimes like they oftentimes like got their man, but then they got some other guys too.

• 1:11:23Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 1:11:23Steven Rinella?

  They were, they had a reputation for being somewhat indiscriminate um in their pursuits. And if they were tracking someone and ran into somebody else, anyways, there's some bad dudes. And they were considered like crack shooters. And there's some accounts of them competing against regular soldiers in shooting contests and they would clean their clock, but they would make a mark on a tree.

• 1:11:47Steven Rinella?

  They would make a mark on a tree the size of a dollar bill. Which was, we have the, we have the dimensions on it. It's not quite like our dollar bill today, but you're basically making a hatchet slash in a tree like a bill.

• 1:11:58Speaker 06

  Yep.

• 1:11:59Steven Rinella?

  And then at 60 paces and they could put most, but not all of those balls into that mark. Regular soldiers could not. So that gives you an idea of like what really was what they were really doing.

• 1:12:14Speaker 06

  Yeah. And that's the same, the soldiers and the, the bad boys are using the same.

• 1:12:19Steven Rinella?

  No, the soldiers have way better, just way, because they're hunting with the hunting rifles.

• 1:12:24Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 1:12:25Steven Rinella?

  There was, at that time, people weren't, the, the, the backwoodsman, it's kind of funny. The backwoodsman were getting into rifled barrels.

• 1:12:33Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 1:12:34Steven Rinella?

  And they were getting into lighter calibers.

• 1:12:37Steven Rinella?

  Smaller balls.

• 1:12:38Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 1:12:39Steven Rinella?

  And rifling and soldiers were oftentimes given these smoothbores. And, and like the rifling kind of came from a different direction of how guys caught on it. So these guys were shooting like pretty sophisticated, but oftentimes home, like handmade guns.

• 1:12:54Speaker 06

  Yeah, customized, custom them out.

• 1:12:57Steven Rinella?

  Yo, where you're actually taking a bar and rolling that bar to make the barrel.

• 1:13:05Speaker 06

  Dang.

• 1:13:06Steven Rinella?

  Like hammering it out, rolling it, smoothing it out, cutting the lands and grooves, cutting the grooves into it. Whole thing, all made by hand.

• 1:13:15Speaker 06

  Yeah. Stand in their tool.

• 1:13:17Steven Rinella?

  But like, how good could you be? Cause like, they were, how, think of how inconsistent gunpowder is.

• 1:13:22Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 1:13:23Steven Rinella?

  You're pouring shot by hand, right? It's, you know, it's just a lot of inconsistencies. But there's the mythology is how good these guys with these flintlocks, but, and it's still impressive, but they weren't like, you know, in our research, it's just like, for someone to hit, to hit a deer at 200 yards was really something.

• 1:13:41Speaker 06

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:13:42Steven Rinella?

  That was really something.

• 1:13:43Speaker 06

  Yep.

• 1:13:46Steven Rinella?

  With a flintlock. But shooting at, shooting at 60 paces was like, pretty what you were after. Which is very similar. It's like, not too terribly far off from what you're looking for now.

• 1:13:56Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 1:13:57Steven Rinella?

  With a flintlock. And that's putting them into a, you know, and that's putting them into a.

• 1:14:03Speaker 06

  Dollar size.

• 1:14:04Steven Rinella?

  Something about the size of a, of a bill. They would shoot further distances at, at the head of, at shooting at the head, the top of a keg.

• 1:14:15Steven Rinella?

  Which is, so it's about an eight inch circle. They would set up and you would, they would set up and go a little farther and try to put it into an eight inch circle. So they weren't miracle workers with those things.

• 1:14:24Speaker 06

  Yeah. Just knew the tool very, knew the rifle very well.

• 1:14:28Steven Rinella?

  Yep. I could definitely see like, I was telling myself I'm gonna do this, but now, but recognizing I'm probably lying to myself. I was like, man, I should just do it where for like, a bunch of years going forward, I only hunt with that fricking flintlock. That's all I touch.

• 1:14:41Speaker 06

  That'd be tough. There's guys that do it.

• 1:14:44Steven Rinella?

  Just be like, yeah, Jim Bechtel.

• 1:14:46Speaker 06

  Yep.

• 1:14:47Steven Rinella?

  Just be like, I'm gonna hunt, if I, like, I'm only, like, art, like, same way, like, certain dudes, like Cam Haynes, he just hunts with a bow. He don't hunt with a gun. Doesn't do it. And be like, I only hunt with a flintlock until I get that thing mastered.

• 1:15:00Speaker 06

  Yeah. You'd always have to be in that 120, 100 yard zone though.

• 1:15:04Steven Rinella?

  Sure, I don't give a shit.

• 1:15:05Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 1:15:06Steven Rinella?

  Just get where I'm like, Joe Flintlock, man.

• 1:15:10Speaker 06

  Or Steve Flintlock.

• 1:15:11Steven Rinella?

  I'm not gonna actually do that, but if I was cooler than I am, that's what I would do.

• 1:15:15Speaker 06

  He had more time.

• 1:15:17Steven Rinella?

  That's what I would do. Um.

• 1:15:22Steven Rinella?

  See this book?

• 1:15:24Speaker 03

  Old Grizzly.

• 1:15:25Steven Rinella?

  This book is phenomenal. I'm only pointing this book out because this guy just put it together. It was like, it's like a journal.

• 1:15:33Steven Rinella?

  That he put together. It's self-published.

• 1:15:38Speaker 03

  I like journals.

• 1:15:39Steven Rinella?

  Yep, Old Grizzly. To a Better Understanding of Life on the Frontier.

• 1:15:44Speaker 03

  Is that him?

• 1:15:45Steven Rinella?

  That's Old Grizzly. So, this guy's later and he's a grizzly, he was hunting grizzlies in the Selkirk's.

• 1:15:52Speaker 03

  Oh, nice.

• 1:15:55Steven Rinella?

  And, um.

• 1:15:57Steven Rinella?

  Uh, it's phenomenal, man. You know, we do Steve Reads Books So You Ain't Got To?

• 1:16:05Steven Rinella?

  We even have a little, I don't have it with me, but there's a thing that goes, it's time. Oh, you have it?

• 1:16:11Steven Rinella?

  Can you play it into my, into Seth's headphones?

• 1:16:18Speaker 07

  It's time for Steve Reads Books. So you ain't got to.

• 1:16:26Steven Rinella?

  See what I'm saying?

• 1:16:26Speaker 03

  Ooh, moody.

• 1:16:29Speaker 03

  Old Grizzly.

• 1:16:31Steven Rinella?

  So it's a series we do where I read a book. And I just find the good parts.

• 1:16:37Steven Rinella?

  And tell you about them.

• 1:16:38Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:16:39Steven Rinella?

  And then you ain't got to read it.

• 1:16:41Speaker 03

  You ain't got to.

• 1:16:41Steven Rinella?

  Cause I already read it and I told you all the good parts.

• 1:16:46Speaker 03

  Got more time to shoot your flintlock.

• 1:16:47Steven Rinella?

  Yep. You ready for a couple of these?

• 1:16:50Speaker 03

  Yep.

• 1:16:51Steven Rinella?

  In the winter, we often hunted muskrats with a long spear. We had made from a quarter inch round iron rod. It had a sharp barb on the spear end and a round wood handle, fastened on the other end. When the ice would bear our weight, we would go out to their houses and shove the spear through the center of each house. The houses were made of grass and mud from the edge of the lake and were easily penetrated. We seldom missed getting at least one from each place we tried. The spear was sharp and it made a clean cut in the pelt, which did not depreciate its value.

• 1:17:32Speaker 03

  Dang, that's cool. What year was this?

• 1:17:34Steven Rinella?

  That'll get you arrested.

• 1:17:35Speaker 03

  Is there a year?

• 1:17:37Steven Rinella?

  Um.

• 1:17:37Speaker 03

  Yeah, don't do that now.

• 1:17:40Steven Rinella?

  So I'm trying, so he, he was running around in, uh, Old Grizzly here, one second.

• 1:17:49Steven Rinella?

  Old Grizzly killed 56 grizzly bears in western Canada on the Selkirk between 1895 and 1924. Then he went back in 1935 and killed another one. So most of this action is occurring in the mid, like, like, well, most of the action is occurring

• 1:18:09Steven Rinella?

  in the early 1900s.

• 1:18:12Speaker 06

  Okay. You can't do that now. You can't go spear hook.

• 1:18:18Steven Rinella?

  Can't gig muskrats anymore.

• 1:18:20Speaker 06

  Through the roof of their house.

• 1:18:24Steven Rinella?

  Ready for this?

• 1:18:25Speaker 06

  Yes.

• 1:18:29Steven Rinella?

  Directly, he's talking about spearing pike, spearing fish.

• 1:18:36Steven Rinella?

  If no, okay, directly, he's talking about, they go out, they'd go out to spear northerns, okay?

• 1:18:42Steven Rinella?

  Um.

• 1:18:45Steven Rinella?

  For, for commercial, uh, for commercial sale. But here's an interesting bit. The highest price we got for our fish was around four cents a pound. And that was for black bass, largemouths. So in those days, they were spearing largemouths through the ice and selling them for four bucks a, for, uh,

• 1:19:09Speaker 06

  Four.

• 1:19:10Steven Rinella?

  Selling them for four cents a pound on the commercial market. So you would go into a fish market in those years and you could buy largemouth bass. You could buy speared largemouth bass and bring it home to eat at the table.

• 1:19:26Steven Rinella?

  In the fall of the year, we would make a few dollars by what we called pulling trees.

• 1:19:32Steven Rinella?

  Settlers living on the prairie would come to town and hire boys to pull up small cottonwood seedlings, which grew on the sandbars along the river. The settlers planted the seedlings around their homes to start a windbreak. Some settlers had extra land given to them by the government, provided they planted it with trees. And we also supplied seedling trees for such planting. The seedlings were usually about 10 inches long and grew in clean sand from seeds washed there from the previous season. It was easy for even a small boy to pull up a dozen or more at a time. We tied them in bunches of a thousand, for which we received 20 cents.

• 1:20:14Steven Rinella?

  We considered this an easy way to make money.

• 1:20:19Speaker 06

  Wonder what's inflate, like what, what would the math be on that? Like what's 20 cents nowadays? And from 1920?

• 1:20:28Speaker 06

  Like a hundred bucks?

• 1:20:30Steven Rinella?

  You wanna know what else he would do for money?

• 1:20:31Speaker 06

  Yep.

• 1:20:32Steven Rinella?

  Sometimes a settler wanted maple seeds to plant. We supplied them. No, he did all his hunting in, in western Canada, but grew up in the Midwest.

• 1:20:42Speaker 06

  Okay.

• 1:20:43Steven Rinella?

  Sometimes a settler wanted ma- uh, maple seeds to plant. We supplied them, but it was hard work to get them. We first had to chop down a tree and then strip the seeds from the limbs and they usually were so firmly attached that it was a case of pulling off one seed at a time. The settlers paid us one dollar for a gunny sack full of these maple seeds. We noticed that some of the sacks were larger than others, but soon got over that difficulty by filling up the bottom of the big sacks with leaves.

• 1:21:18Steven Rinella?

  That's called cheating dirt.

• 1:21:19Speaker 06

  Or just opportunistic.

• 1:21:22Speaker 03

  You getting seven, seven dollars, 50 cents?

• 1:21:29Speaker 03

  Oh, is that what you got?

• 1:21:30Speaker 06

  Under 10 bucks for a thousand cottonwoods.

• 1:21:36Steven Rinella?

  My kid went to a turkey shoot at the bow range. And I was trying to explain to him that when I was a kid, a turkey shoot, like now you'll shoot targets to win a frozen turkey.

• 1:21:46Speaker 06

  Yeah, I used to do that.

• 1:21:47Steven Rinella?

  Well, when I was a boy, you could go down to our gun range and there was an actual turkey shoot.

• 1:21:53Speaker 06

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:21:55Steven Rinella?

  Behind a sand, they'd put a turkey behind a sandbar.

• 1:22:00Speaker 06

  And what, you just shoot at the turkey?

• 1:22:01Steven Rinella?

  Yeah, they have 22 and hit it, hit its head.

• 1:22:03Speaker 06

  Whoever got it, got the turkey.

• 1:22:05Steven Rinella?

  Dodging around back there with just its head sticking up out of a sandbar. I was so little, I didn't do it, but it was the thing.

• 1:22:13Speaker 06

  Huh.

• 1:22:13Steven Rinella?

  He said, um, he's talking about this, these guys go and do a turkey shoot. It was always an interesting sight to watch these old timers load their rifles at the turkey shoot, which was an annual affair at home. They were all good shots too and never failed to get a turkey. The men would line up along the riverbank and shoot at a turkey placed with its feet tied together on the shore some distance away. The shots were 10 cents and the bird was yours if you hit it anywhere.

• 1:22:45Speaker 06

  Sounds like a good deal.

• 1:22:50Steven Rinella?

  Trying to think if I'm gonna tell you about any more of these. You know what he gets into? He winds up having exposure. This is the last thing I'm gonna tell you. I'm running out of the show. He winds up having exposure to, you know the guy that killed Jesse James?

• 1:23:04Speaker 06

  Oh, kinda backstabby?

• 1:23:06Steven Rinella?

  Robert Ford.

• 1:23:08Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 1:23:09Steven Rinella?

  He has some details about when the killing of Robert Ford.

• 1:23:17Steven Rinella?

  Mr. Ford was standing at the bar talking to a man about contributing some money to a fund he was raising to bury one of the dance hall girls who had just died.

• 1:23:30Steven Rinella?

  As Ford turned from the bar, he called a greeting to O'Kelly. That's who killed Robert Ford.

• 1:23:40Steven Rinella?

  He called a greeting to O'Kelly who was only about five feet away. Without saying a word, O'Kelly pulled up the gun and fired a blast of buckshot from both barrels, which blew away half of Bob Ford's head.

• 1:24:00Speaker 06

  What's called a greeting mean? Just slighted him?

• 1:24:02Steven Rinella?

  I'm only on page 27. I've read the whole thing.

• 1:24:07Speaker 06

  It's heavy hitting the whole way?

• 1:24:08Steven Rinella?

  Yeah, look at these, look at all these highlights I got marked.

• 1:24:12Speaker 06

  I don't gotta read anymore though.

• 1:24:13Steven Rinella?

  No, you don't need to read it because now you know the main good parts.

• 1:24:18Speaker 06

  What's called a greeting mean?

• 1:24:20Steven Rinella?

  Well, he wanted to make, so he wanted to make, so Jesse James gets killed by Robert Ford, who's kind of a traitor.

• 1:24:27Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 1:24:27Steven Rinella?

  And then this guy around town, this kind of local bad guy around town wants to make a name for himself. He wants to kill Robert Ford to make a name for himself. He doesn't get any trouble for it.

• 1:24:35Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 1:24:36Steven Rinella?

  Robert Ford has a bar. And I've heard other accounts that he took a bunch of, uh, he took a bunch of pipe, iron pipe, and cut it into little rings.

• 1:24:49Speaker 06

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:24:50Steven Rinella?

  And then chiseled those rings into little slivers and actually funneled that down the barrel of a double barrel. And shot Robert Ford with that.

• 1:24:58Speaker 06

  A bunch of shrapnel. Wow.

• 1:25:00Steven Rinella?

  Some accounts have him cutting Robert Ford in half down at the waist and some accounts, his account has him cutting Robert Ford in half along the head.

• 1:25:09Speaker 06

  Jeez.

• 1:25:12Steven Rinella?

  He wound up dying a violent death.

• 1:25:14Speaker 06

  Yeah. Oh, the other guy?

• 1:25:16Steven Rinella?

  He died a violent death.

• 1:25:18Speaker 06

  Yikes.

• 1:25:22Steven Rinella?

  It's all for today.

• 1:25:23Speaker 03

  Keep your powder dry.

• 1:25:26Speaker 06

  Do you still think this was the worst trip you've ever been on?

• 1:25:29Steven Rinella?

  Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. This is the lowest point in my life.

• 1:25:35Speaker 03

  Really? I'm trying to think of other bad ones we've had.

• 1:25:39Steven Rinella?

  Fifty years, this is the lowest point in my life.

• 1:25:44Steven Rinella?

  Nothing to do with that.

• 1:25:44Speaker 03

  It's only up from here, Marge.

• 1:25:46Steven Rinella?

  Nothing to do with that, Maggie. It's the lowest point in my life. There's, it's just like, yeah, it's like, I don't know what to do. I don't know how I can go home and be a father to my children anymore.

• 1:25:56Steven Rinella?

  You know?

• 1:25:57Speaker 03

  I feel like you'll be alright.

• 1:25:58Steven Rinella?

  You know, they'll be like, I was raised by, they'll, they'll, they'll grow up later in life, they'll, they'll go to a therapist and they'll say, I was raised by a broken man. They'll be like, well, he was actually fine. They'll be like, he was fine until like December 24th. After that, he was a broken man.

• 1:26:14Speaker 06

  A shell of a, a shell of a man.

• 1:26:16Speaker 03

  They'll be like, what broke your old man? He'd be like, the flintlock muzzleloader.

• 1:26:20Steven Rinella?

  He got, he went down, he got, knowing my mom didn't want him to do it, but he got that goddamn flintlock.

• 1:26:30Speaker 06

  First time damn near broke him. Second time definitely broke him.

• 1:26:35Steven Rinella?

  And he was never the same. He just took to the bottle.

• 1:26:40Speaker 06

  You know Coca-Cola.

• 1:26:41Steven Rinella?

  Took to the bottle.

• 1:26:42Speaker 06

  Got diabetes.

• 1:26:43Steven Rinella?

  Got diabetes.

• 1:26:46Steven Rinella?

  And with that. See y'all next Flintlock season when I'm Flintlock Joe, dude.

• 1:26:53Steven Rinella?

  You know, I'm not hunting next year's Flintlock season because I'll have already killed a buck during regular season with my Flintlock.

• 1:26:59Speaker 06

  Oh, because that's all you.

• 1:27:00Steven Rinella?

  I'm holding you. No Flintlock season. Yeah. With that said, I am in the market for that, that gun, that single trigger percussion cap, long barrel, straight shooting maxi ball gun. Any gun makers out there? Um, all right. Thanks, y'all. Thank you.

• 1:27:43Steven Rinella?

  I'll tell you one thing that binds together all of the vehicles in the Rinella fleet at my house. They all have WeatherTech floor liners. When we get a new car, the first thing we do, out with the junky factory carpet mats, in with WeatherTech. They really are the best. They're indestructible. You can pull them out, hose them off. It doesn't matter what happens on the floor of your rig. If you got WeatherTech, you're going to be covered. I love these things. If you're looking to get a great gift for someone, especially if they're a big time outdoors kind of person, like if you really want to do them a favor, get them some WeatherTech floor liners for their truck or car. They'll have a way easier time keeping their rig nice and clean and they'll get years and years of use out of

• 1:28:27Steven Rinella?

  a set. Visit weathertech.com for your holiday shopping today. In military families, service is more than a job. It's a legacy. At American Military University, that legacy can help open new doors. Through education, if someone in your family served in the military, you could be eligible for reduced tuition. Take the next step with flexible online programs built for real life. Learn more at amu.apus.edu/military. Go and ask any serious whitetail hunter what the best time of the year is to be out in a tree. And it's not a holiday, okay? The best time is not already on your calendar.

• 1:29:13Steven Rinella?

  It's the rut. It's the two or three week window that serious deer hunters plan everything else around. And OnX Hunt's rut calendar does this for you and helps take the guesswork out of your planning. It tracks the different phases of the rut as they move through your area. So you know when to book the time off, when to have the whole camp locked in and ready, or conversely, when it's still too early to burn out your best spots. You only get so many rut hunts in your life. So use the rut calendar within OnX Hunt to make the most of the whitetail rut this fall.

• 1:29:50Speaker 00

  This is an iHeart Podcast. Guaranteed Human.