The Guys at the Door | Episode 5

After Brett lost his teaching license, life was never the same. The rumor mill in Gresham was in full force. They needed an escape. But can Stacie truly escape if she doesn’t know what she’s running from? Check out Jim Cole's new podcast, Unlikely Allies: https://ourrescue.org/unlikelyallies Learn more about Josh Findley's work: https://www.onemi-global.com/ Reach out to our team at [email protected] mailto:[email protected]. For more exclusive content head to terriblestory.substack.com https://terriblestory.substack.com/. Get free access to archival photos, resources, and bonus stories that didn't make the cut. Plus — get early, ad-free episodes as a paid subscriber. If you or anyone you know is experiencing sexual violence and needs help, please visit rainn.org http://rainn.org or call the national hotline at 800-656-HOPE (4673) or text HOPE to 64673. You can anonymously report school employee boundary crossing and grooming and educator sexual misconduct to Safe Oregon. You can call or text 844-472-3367 or email [email protected] mailto:[email protected]. If you’d like to learn more about educator sexual misconduct and get involved, there are many great organizations doing research, education and advocacy work, including: S. E. S. A. M. E. https://www.ncsesame.org/– Stop Educator Sexual Abuse Misconduct & ExplotationEnough Abuse https://enoughabuse.org/The National Center for Missing and Exploited Children https://www.missingkids.org/homeAmerican Association Of University Women https://www.aauw.org/Stop Sexual Assault in Schools https://stopsexualassaultinschools.org/

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Sydney Gladu?

  Before we get started, a quick heads up. This episode contains references to child sex abuse material and educator sexual misconduct. When we last left Stacy, it was January 2005. Stacy and her former teacher Brett Fisher had been married for three years. That same month, Brett's classroom computer was flagged for visiting pornographic sites during the school day, and it led to an investigation.

• 0:29Speaker 01

  I was getting like a 1% story, and everyone's getting a 1% story.

• 0:34Sydney Gladu?

  Stacy was blindsided a few days later when he resigned and moved termination.

• 0:38Speaker 01

  You know, I was 24. Just remember just being in like total shock.

• 0:43Sydney Gladu?

  Child sex abuse material was traced to that same computer, and the case got referred to the Department of Homeland Security.

• 0:50Speaker 01

  And then there was a knock at the door. That sight of more than 10 men standing there in Homeland Security gear.

• 1:01Sydney Gladu?

  Those agents from DHS were there to search their apartment, and they took their home computer to investigate. Meanwhile, the Teacher Standards and Practices Commission conducted its own investigation and revoked Brett's teaching license. You heard about that in episode three, when nearly two decades later Stacy saw that investigation report for the first time.

• 1:19Speaker 01

  What is this?

• 1:21Sydney Gladu?

  This is the investigation file. Here's Stacy reading that report.

• 1:26Speaker 01

  Mr. Fisher knowingly used his school computer equipment to receive sexually explicit materials. The sites observed provide enough evidence sufficient to establish this as child pornography.

• 1:37Sydney Gladu?

  The TSPC investigation answered a lot of our questions.

• 1:40Speaker 01

  It was like he was always looking for the girls that he could meet in high school, and then after they graduated, he would try to date them.

• 1:47Sydney Gladu?

  But it also left important questions unanswered.

• 1:49Speaker 01

  Fisher was not prosecuted in US District Court or Montloma County Superior Court. I do not know why. Why?

• 1:57Sydney Gladu?

  Other questions cut deeper, because after the federal agents came to their door, Stacy stayed married to Brett for seven more years. Why did she stay? And why did she finally go? I'm Sydney Gladu, and this is not just a terrible story.

• 2:29Speaker 02

  In the 1960s, the federal government embarked on a huge experiment.

• 2:36Speaker 03

  It was groundbreaking at the time.

• 2:38Speaker 02

  The goal: to figure out the best ways to teach.

• 2:41Speaker 04

  They evaluated different philosophies of education.

• 2:44Speaker 02

  When it was over, one approach stood above the rest.

• 2:48Speaker 05

  Seven plus how many equal 11? That's a boy!

• 2:51Speaker 02

  But a lot of people didn't like it.

• 2:53Speaker 05

  One educator has called the approach totalitarian, another horrible.

• 2:58Speaker 02

  The kind of teaching that worked so well? Most schools don't do it. I'm Emily Hanford. On the new season of Sold a Story, we investigate why. Follow Sold a Story in your podcast app.

• 3:11Sydney Gladu?

  In the days that followed Brett's resignation and the DHS search, this story entered the rumor mill in Gresham, Oregon. It was only a few days into February 2005, and Brett was home and jobless. Both of them were spinning out. Stacy was working at Nike, but the day after federal agents knocked on their door, she called in sick and never went back. They'd been married three years at this point, which is a long time when you're only 24. She decided to give their marriage a year. She thought surely that'd be enough time to rebuild their lives after a big mistake.

• 3:55Sydney Gladu?

  But Gresham began to feel like a pressure cooker, so in February 2005, they packed up all their belongings and relocated to Dallas, Texas, where Stacy's sister Raquel and brother-in-law Sean lived.

• 4:08Speaker 01

  The only word that comes to me is escape. It was just escape. There was no therapy, there was no like long conversations.

• 4:17Sydney Gladu?

  Stacy remembers needing a fresh start, but Brett's affairs weren't exactly in order when they left.

• 4:23Speaker 01

  Even his attorney did not recommend that we left because he was under investigation, but we did it anyways. I was really embarrassed. I mean, thinking like, it's embarrassing enough to marry your teacher, and then it's like double embarrassing to then have that teacher be fired for something like that.

• 4:42Sydney Gladu?

  As they settled into their new life, Brett got a job at a wine bar, and they tried to pretend like nothing happened. But all the events of the last month had taken a toll on their relationship.

• 4:52Speaker 01

  I guess I would describe it like two good friends, two good roommates. We would go play tennis in the morning, and it would be warm and sunny, and I love that, to be honest. But it was fun when it was fun, and then it really sucked when it really sucked.

• 5:10Sydney Gladu?

  It sucked because there was no running away from the situation that drove them from Oregon. Not really, because Stacy never stopped being suspicious of her husband.

• 5:18Speaker 01

  And I just had this feeling that something was happening again. I remember asking him, like, you know, you said you were gonna stop basically looking at pornography. And he like blew up, and he took our coffee table, like a wooden glass coffee table, and like smashed it. I never saw him angrily smash things or throw things or, you know, that type of behavior. So it was really alarming and scary. Just looking back, I mean, that's like the girl I wish I could reach back to and go, just get yourself out of the situation. Like, it is so bad.

• 5:56Sydney Gladu?

  Remember, at this point, Stacy and her family didn't know the full truth behind why Brett left his job. But that gnawing feeling, the one she had before the federal agents knocked on their door, was still there. She knew something was off. And Stacy wasn't the only one who felt that way. Sean, Stacy's brother-in-law, had always been suspicious about Brett's behavior.

• 6:18Speaker 06

  Because I knew his story, right? She had been his student, he'd been her teacher. That obviously put a red flag for me and made me suspicious. And he never made me feel any better about who I suspected he was.

• 6:33Sydney Gladu?

  And now Brett was under investigation, and he told Stacy it was because he looked at pornography. To Sean, that story never added up. He remembers he watched Brett like a hawk during family gatherings, especially around his and Raquel's daughter. We'll call her Kayla.

• 6:49Speaker 06

  They came down here to live. That's when I got a pretty good look at him with our oldest daughter. She was pre-teen at that time.

• 6:57Sydney Gladu?

  One afternoon, Sean remembers Brett was paying extra attention to Kayla. Brett and Kayla were in the family pool, off to one side. Sean remembers that Brett had both his hands up against the wall on either side of Kayla, talking closely to her in a way that felt inappropriate.

• 7:14Speaker 06

  That made me feel strange. And then they come in, and she goes to her bedroom, and he ends up back there, too.

• 7:23Sydney Gladu?

  Sean intervened immediately. But here's the thing. Sean was looking for this behavior from Brett, so he was able to jump into action. From then on, Sean remained vigilant in keeping tabs on Brett, where he was and who he was with.

• 7:38Speaker 06

  And I think the thing about it is the brazenness. I mean, he'd already been interviewed by the Department of Homeland Security in their condo in downtown Portland. He'd already lost his job. He already had all of that going on, and then came down here. It was just brazen.

• 7:57Sydney Gladu?

  Raquel remembers confronting Brett and Stacy about Brett's behavior towards Kayla.

• 8:01Speaker 07

  For both he and Stacy, it was a little bit of a reaction of, you guys are overreacting. You're making more of this than you should. It kind of caused a rift between Stacy and I because I also was concerned, and I was just like, we don't want him to be alone with her. And, you know, that was very uncomfortable.

• 8:20Sydney Gladu?

  Katie and I were both surprised that Stacy had never told us about Brett's behavior with Kayla. The whole story was laced with the red flags we'd been talking about for over a year at this point. When we asked her about it, she said she didn't remember the interaction.

• 8:33Speaker 01

  Well, I never knew about this stuff with my niece until we did the podcast, so that was new information for me.

• 8:39Sydney Gladu?

  What Stacy did remember was how Raquel and Sean felt about Brett at this point.

• 8:43Speaker 01

  My sister had expressed, like, we feel uncomfortable with Brett's past, and that kind of hurt my feelings. The people I'm closest to, that I respect the most and love me the most, feel like my husband might be a predator.

• 8:58Sydney Gladu?

  Stacy's done a lot of work to understand her past, to figure out why she couldn't fully see the red flags Raquel and Sean saw so clearly. But that understanding hasn't made the pain of looking back any smaller.

• 9:09Speaker 01

  My sister, again, the person I respect the most and to this day, respect the most, saying like, I feel uncomfortable with your husband being around my daughter. It makes me want to cry thinking about it, just that they were in that position to have to have that conversation with me, and that I was so out of touch with reality. But it was something I was trying to deny, something I was trying to overlook, something I was trying to think like, that's just, you're overthinking, you're being too sensitive.

• 9:39Sydney Gladu?

  Brett losing his teaching license made Stacy feel ostracized in so many aspects of her life. And now it was creating distance in her most important relationships.

• 9:51Sydney Gladu?

  Dallas was a short-lived experiment for Stacy and Brett. Within nine months, the tides were changing. Stacy doesn't have a clear answer for how or why she knew she needed to leave. But Dallas's charms were wearing off, and the friction in her relationship with Raquel made it less comforting to stay.

• 10:08Speaker 01

  Outside of my family and being able to see them and amazing Tex-Mex and being able to swim in a warm pool at nighttime in the summer, pretty much I wanted to leave everything else. I wanted to go back to hills, huge trees, and I just wanted to go back to what I knew.

• 10:29Sydney Gladu?

  Looking back, she thinks this moment was tied to something that happened the year before, when federal agents showed up at their door. That day, Stacy made herself a promise.

• 10:38Speaker 01

  I said, I'll give him a year and then I'll figure out what I need to do. And that was my moment where it snapped into place for me and I was like, I'm out. I don't want this. It's not a conversation. There's no compromise. I'm doing this for me now. This is my moment to do for me what I need to do.

• 10:56Sydney Gladu?

  This isn't the moment she left him, but it was a moment she finally stood up for herself.

• 11:01Speaker 01

  I basically said, I'm not running from your secrets. I'm not hiding for you. It was something that he needed to grow past if we were going to stay together.

• 11:09Sydney Gladu?

  So Stacy moved back to Portland, and Brett followed. For the next few years, things between them were up and down, but Stacy kept trying to make it work. We don't know what exactly was going through Brett's mind at this point. He's declined our requests for an interview, and so have his friends and family. We sent him a detailed list of specific questions, including some about his time in Dallas and the allegations concerning his treatment of Kayla. He has chosen not to respond to any of it, but here's what we do know. By the start of 2006, Brett's teaching license was officially revoked, and he learned there would be no further legal consequences. When they got back to Portland, he worked at a beverage distribution company for a few years. And then, in 2008, he decided to re-enter the education space.

• 11:54Sydney Gladu?

  He was hired as an executive success coach at Inside Track, a college and career student coaching program. On Brett's own LinkedIn, he says he coached at 12 different universities, and that Inside Track provides one-on-one student success coaching. We don't know exactly how old the students were that Brett was coaching. So it's possible that despite his past, Brett had one-on-one access to young adults. It's not clear if his teacher's license revocation ever surfaced during the hiring process. We reached out to Inside Track, but they declined to comment. A few years after Brett started working at Inside Track, he was promoted. And then, in 2016, after eight years of working there, he left. We don't know why.

• 12:37Sydney Gladu?

  But here's where the world gets a little small. While I was digging into Stacy's story, I went down a rabbit hole based on some memories I had from my own high school years. There was a teacher at my high school named Daniel Weber. I never had his class, but I knew about him. He was funny, always standing in the hallway laughing. And in 2011, when I was a sophomore, he was caught having a relationship with his teacher's assistant. He lost his teaching license for this. The entire situation is spelled out in the final order document. Here's a voice actor reading from the finding of fact. Weber had engaged in an inappropriate romantic relationship with a female student who had recently graduated high school. Weber's romantic relationship with this student began before she graduated.

• 13:21Sydney Gladu?

  Weber's relationship with this student included sexual conduct. Weber told school administrators that he was in love with this student and that no sexual activities occurred until after her 18th birthday. To be clear, a teacher having a sexual relationship with a student, even if they are 18, still violates the Oregon teacher's code of conduct. But why am I blabbing on about some teacher from my high school? Because like Brett, he also went on to get a job at Inside Track after he lost his teaching license. Daniel Weber started as a lead student success specialist in 2012 and was promoted to program director in 2023. We could not reach Daniel Weber for a comment. I reached out to Inside Track again,

• 14:04Sydney Gladu?

  this time to ask about Daniel Weber. They also denied this interview request. Since I reached out to Inside Track, Daniel Weber's LinkedIn page has vanished. Inside Track won't confirm whether he is still employed there or not. If Inside Track hired Brett Fisher or Daniel Weber after their TSBC revocation orders were made public, those documents should turn up in a simple Google search. And a company that hires a lot of former educators from Oregon may want to be familiar with the TSBC website and do a manual search. That extra layer of screening is important, not just at schools, but also private companies. Because if someone wasn't charged and convicted of a crime, the information in the TSBC final order

• 14:48Sydney Gladu?

  won't show up in a criminal background check. In Brett's case specifically, the fact that investigators found the computer in his classroom accessed child sexual abuse material never would have shown up in a criminal background check. Because that finding didn't lead to charges.

• 15:07Sydney Gladu?

  At this point in our investigation, I really wanted to know why Brett was never charged. So we kept looking for answers, this time with someone who knows the ins and outs of the prosecutor's office.

• 15:19Speaker 04

  My name's Kristy Keating. I'm a licensed attorney in the state of Washington, and I'm also a certified parent coach.

• 15:26Sydney Gladu?

  We spoke with Kristy in episode three about grooming. But now we wanted to talk to Kristy about prosecuting cases of educator sexual misconduct, because she's done it. Kristy successfully prosecuted Dean Junker, a former teacher at the Forest Ridge School of the Sacred Heart in Bellevue, Washington. He was sentenced to 20 months in prison for sexual misconduct with a minor. So we asked Kristy if she saw a lot of sexual misconduct cases against educators during her time as a prosecutor.

• 15:51Speaker 04

  The answer is no. I didn't. And that is not indicative of the prevalence of the cases.

• 15:59Sydney Gladu?

  Educator sexual misconduct cases are extremely under-reported, and very few are prosecuted. Brett's case was reported and investigated, but he wasn't charged. Kristy agreed to review some of the documents we found about Brett's case to see if there were any clues we were missing. We showed her the report of the preliminary investigation, which TSBC originally wrote up back in October 2005. Kristy isn't a licensed attorney in the state of Oregon, but we were hoping she could set us on the right track.

• 16:27Speaker 04

  I want to, with deference to the prosecutors involved in this case, sort of highlight that there are a lot of different considerations that a prosecutor goes through when determining whether or not to file charges. And we're constantly trying to fix and improve the way statutes are written because we're finding loopholes or ways that we suddenly can't prosecute when we thought we would be able to. Then we have to look at things like the forensic chain of custody. When we really get into the nitty-gritty of the evidence that we have, does it establish beyond a reasonable doubt, which is the highest legal standard that we have? Does it establish beyond a reasonable doubt that this individual committed the crime? This was back in 2005, so that's 20 years ago.

• 17:12Speaker 04

  The ability to forensically prove something and prove the chain of custody of images forensically would have been different 20 years ago than it is today. In order to file charges, all you have to have is probable cause, which is a much, much lower standard. But we don't file cases based on probable cause. We typically file knowing that we will be able to get ultimately over the hurdle of beyond a reasonable doubt. So with all of those caveats or explanations for why someone may not file, when I, you know, when I read this, I'm like, wow.

• 17:55Speaker 04

  I want to know what those reasons were. Because at first blush, I would have questions. There certainly are some very concerning facts shared in the two-page document that you shared with me.

• 18:10Sydney Gladu?

  Kristy helped us see the case from a prosecutor's perspective. But there's something missing from this document: Stacy. And it isn't just failing to acknowledge that she was groomed by her teacher, but also that spouses have a level of victimhood, even if they weren't the target of the actions. How is a person supposed to know what their partner is doing? Like, she went on to have children with this man.

• 18:35Speaker 04

  I mean, the short answer is you don't. You don't. And especially because most offenders are never, ever caught. There is no record.

• 18:51Sydney Gladu?

  For Stacy, this case never ended. She's lived with the weight of these unanswered questions every day since 2005. And because Brett was never charged, she never got the one thing she needed to move on: a clear explanation. So we're all left guessing. Maybe it was the chain of evidence, but maybe it was something else. After all the time we'd spent reporting this story, we weren't any closer to an answer as to why Brett Fisher wasn't charged. That was until a document landed in my inbox. From a records request we'd filed nine months earlier. Nine months. I didn't think it was ever gonna come. It's happy birthday. It arrived on my birthday in 2025.

• 19:34Sydney Gladu?

  I opened my email expecting a coffee shop discount. Instead, I found a Department of Homeland Security report.

• 19:52Sydney Gladu?

  The email was from the Department of Homeland Security. Attached was their original investigation report from 2005. The report was brief and heavily redacted, but it gave us a zinger. Brett Fisher, quote, "admittedly accessed child pornography at school," end quote. Again, that term is no longer used. It's now called child sexual abuse material, or CSAM. But even with that admission from Brett, he was never charged. And the report stated that just two months later, the case was closed. So we decided to go straight to the source, the federal agents who authored this report: Jim Cole. I am retired after 36 years

• 20:37Sydney Gladu?

  total of law enforcement. The last 20 with Homeland Security Investigations, serving as both a special agent and as supervisory special agent. And his partner, Josh Findley. My name's Josh Findley. I'm a retired special agent from Homeland Security Investigations from about 2004 to 2025.

• 20:56Speaker 05

  Josh and I were partners, worked these cases together for a number of years out of the ASAC Portland office.

• 21:04Sydney Gladu?

  Both Jim and Josh were at Stacy and Brett's loft the night of the search.

• 21:07Speaker 05

  Jim and I both were hundreds, if not a thousand, of these kinds of cases. There are just like rule tidbits from each case that stand out. The thing that made it stand out is that we didn't get a charge on them. It pissed me off that we didn't get to charge them. Like, we didn't miss very often.

• 21:30Sydney Gladu?

  I couldn't believe what I was hearing just 30 seconds into our interview. We'd finally found the people who could speak to why Brett wasn't charged.

• 21:39Sydney Gladu?

  I asked Josh to start from the beginning. He remembers that in January 2005, he got a call.

• 21:45Speaker 05

  Detective Mike McGowan out of Gresham PD called me up and said that they had a report that a teacher at Centennial High School was viewing, we refer to as CSAM, on his computer in the classroom.

• 21:58Sydney Gladu?

  CSAM is the acronym for child sexual abuse material.

• 22:02Speaker 05

  So, we went out there with Mike and his team. The IT guy was phenomenal.

• 22:08Sydney Gladu?

  The IT guy was Ron Hopps, and he had done his due diligence to make sure the evidence was collected.

• 22:14Speaker 05

  He had the list of the websites and what times the websites were accessed. And then he had downloaded the security footage to show that Brett was the only person that went into the room and the only person that came out of the room in between those timestamps. He would have been a great investigator. He just didn't know like what he needed to do. Like, if they would have called us like earlier, instead of kind of doing their own investigation, I think it would have turned out different.

• 22:44Sydney Gladu?

  Two days after IT first flagged the computer use, DHS was contacted. By the time federal agents searched the district computer in classroom 110...

• 22:53Speaker 05

  We didn't find anything on that computer.

• 22:56Sydney Gladu?

  But the search wasn't over. Federal agents decided to search Stacy and Brett's personal residence.

• 23:03Sydney Gladu?

  You've heard the story of what happened that day from Stacy's perspective.

• 23:08Sydney Gladu?

  The knock at the door that still echoes in her head. Jim and Josh were two of the agents standing at her door. And then there was the agent who whisked her out of the situation. Here's Jim.

• 23:17Speaker 05

  Bob was not the technology guy. So, yeah, it was likely Bob that took her to the coffee shop.

• 23:23Sydney Gladu?

  Bob passed away by the time we spoke to Jim and Josh. So, we were never able to learn his side of the story from that day.

• 23:30Sydney Gladu?

  This wasn't Jim and Josh's first knock and talk, as they called it. This was a routine consent search, which is when law enforcement shows up at a suspect's store and gets their permission to search.

• 23:41Speaker 05

  Yeah, we kind of had our routine down of how we would get consent from people. We would have gone in and done as thorough a search as we could do without turning things upside down and that kind of thing. And obviously, the focus would have been on the digital devices and that computer in particular. The digital forensic examiner would have come in and run some software on that computer using technologies specifically to look for CSAM files.

• 24:07Sydney Gladu?

  Ultimately, the search yielded negative results. And because they didn't find any evidence of CSAM stored on any of Brett's devices, they weren't able to file charges.

• 24:18Speaker 05

  It was kind of a sad situation because at that time, the law did not allow us to charge with access with the intent to view, which now it does, now that's a crime. But at the time, it wasn't.

• 24:32Sydney Gladu?

  You heard that correctly. In 2005, viewing CSAM online without downloading or physically possessing it was hard to prosecute. It wasn't until three years later, in 2008, that lawmakers clarified the definition of possession of CSAM to include accessing by computer with the intent to view.

• 24:53Sydney Gladu?

  So, what would have happened if someone was found guilty of access with intent to view?

• 24:57Speaker 05

  Intent to view doesn't usually garner prison time or not a lot of prison time. It does make them a convicted felon, though, and a sex offender. The intent to view is like the lowest level charge within the gamut of child exploitation federal charges. And so, like, it usually ends up with a probationary sentence.

• 25:18Sydney Gladu?

  Was this like dumb luck? He just didn't download it?

• 25:21Speaker 05

  I think he knew what he was doing, and I think he took steps not to get caught.

• 25:29Sydney Gladu?

  How many more cases do you guys think would have been charged by that, had that been a law sooner?

• 25:36Speaker 05

  A ton. Lots, yeah, lots.

• 25:39Sydney Gladu?

  I actually saw my jaw drop at the same time as Katie's when we heard Jim and Josh say this.

• 25:44Speaker 05

  If there was any way to prosecute, and we would have, we had a great relationship with our prosecutors, if it only happened three years later.

• 25:52Sydney Gladu?

  I'm left wondering how different Stacy's life might have been if the law had changed just three years earlier. Maybe that knock that has haunted Stacy for decades might have instead felt like an intervention, the moment when the truth finally came out.

• 26:09Sydney Gladu?

  But there was one more piece of closure from this conversation with Jim and Josh.

• 26:15Speaker 05

  With many of the other cases we've had, having to say to a spouse that their husband is under investigation or suspicion of engaging in these types of crimes is, I know that I'm delivering a bombshell in most cases. It took a bit like of experience and maturity to figure out

• 26:41Speaker 05

  what we were doing by delivering that news because we weren't prepared to really provide any support for that. We weren't trained to do that. It was over time, I started to recognize, like, the offender's family is also victimized.

• 27:03Sydney Gladu?

  Someone else finally saw Stacy as a victim.

• 27:09Sydney Gladu?

  Within moments of hanging up with Jim and Josh, I called Katie to debrief what we just learned.

• 27:17Sydney Gladu?

  We have our answer.

• 27:19Speaker 02

  I know. I was like, oh, within five minutes of our interview, we now understand why that couldn't happen, to hear Josh say that they were frustrated that they couldn't prosecute. Like, I mean, how many times have we read the TSPC investigation report and had all these conversations?

• 27:39Sydney Gladu?

  We frantically texted Stacy to see if she could jump on a call with us.

• 27:48Sydney Gladu?

  I don't even know where to start.

• 27:51Sydney Gladu?

  So, they definitely remembered the case.

• 27:55Speaker 01

  Really?

• 27:56Sydney Gladu?

  Yes, because it's one of the few cases they've ever not been able to prosecute.

• 28:02Speaker 01

  Really?

• 28:03Sydney Gladu?

  Mm-hmm.

• 28:04Speaker 01

  What?

• 28:05Sydney Gladu?

  And, yeah, where do I even... Okay, so basically, if the evidence had been collected... Like you heard, Jim and Josh told us there were two things working against them.

• 28:16Sydney Gladu?

  First, they weren't able to properly investigate. Before Brett became aware, his internet activity was flagged by the school. And second, access with intent to view was hard to prosecute at the time.

• 28:27Speaker 01

  Wow.

• 28:28Sydney Gladu?

  And that law was passed three years after.

• 28:31Speaker 01

  Wow, that's crazy.

• 28:32Speaker 02

  And they said, like, we had great relationships with the prosecutors. Like, we would have sent this case, like, it would have happened. But because there was no evidence of downloading or sharing and distributing, that they couldn't.

• 28:48Speaker 01

  That's insane to me.

• 28:51Speaker 02

  Yeah. Jim said, "I have come to appreciate, after years of doing it, when I show up at someone's door, the bombshell that I'm often dropping on them." You know, he's in this role and like the system that he operates in isn't thinking of the family and how he does that.

• 29:08Speaker 01

  That's a trip.

• 29:11Sydney Gladu?

  Yeah.

• 29:13Speaker 01

  Wow.

• 29:15Speaker 01

  That's crazy that they remember it that well, too. I mean, that makes me feel better. Like, I'm not crazy.

• 29:23Sydney Gladu?

  No, you're not crazy. You're not crazy at all.

• 29:27Speaker 01

  Like, no human knows that day, except for them. It's so crazy.

• 29:35Speaker 01

  Wow.

• 29:39Speaker 01

  There's something inside of me that like, the fact that they were in that loft with me, and they're the ones that came to the door, and then there's coming up and speaking, it just means a lot to me.

• 29:51Sydney Gladu?

  This conversation with Jim and Josh felt like a bow on our investigation. We had an answer as to why Brett wasn't criminally charged.

• 30:00Sydney Gladu?

  But it's a little more complicated for Stacy. We spent an hour on the phone that afternoon, circling around the life that could have been hers.

• 30:09Speaker 01

  But it's like, it feels like so unjust to me.

• 30:14Speaker 01

  Because I would have actually been given the correct information. It's like, on one hand, I wish that would have happened, but then I wouldn't have my kids. I mean, everything happens for a reason.

• 30:25Sydney Gladu?

  But even after that hour, Stacy hung up the phone and went back to the life that she lives today.

• 30:34Speaker 01

  Even like pulling into the parking lot, I felt like high school Stacy was there with me, going to this game. You know, those lockers opening and closing and people shuffling in and out. It was funny to walk in, and it always felt so big to me there, but it felt so small to me.

• 30:53Sydney Gladu?

  That's next time on Not Just a Terrible Story.

• 31:18Sydney Gladu?

  Thank you so much for listening to Not Just a Terrible Story. We are an independent production. You can support us by sharing this podcast with a friend and leaving a five-star review wherever you are listening right now. Or hop over to our Substack, terriblestory.substack.com. There's a lot of great free stuff over there, archival photos, resources, and stories that didn't make it into the show. And you can also get early and ad-free episodes as a paid subscriber. To get in touch, send us an email at [email protected]. This podcast was created and produced by Katie Klein and me, your host, Sydney Gladu. Story editing by Lacey Roberts. Show art by Casey Burnell. Original music and mixing by Sean Simmons. Additional music from Blue Dot Sessions.

• 32:01Sydney Gladu?

  Maria Palaiologos is our strategic growth advisor. Support provided by Reporters Committee for Freedom of the Press. And a very special thank you to Stacy Love, whose bravery, honesty, and determination made this series possible. May her truth-telling give others permission to trust their own stories, use their voices, and know that they are not alone. If you or anyone you know is experiencing sexual violence and needs help, please visit rainn.org. That's R-A-I-N-N dot O-R-G. Or call the national hotline at 1-800-656-HOPE. Or text HOPE to 64673. If you'd like to learn more about educator sexual misconduct, check out the show notes for additional resources.

• 32:58Speaker 02

  In the 1960s, the federal government embarked on a huge experiment.

• 33:03Speaker 03

  It was groundbreaking at the time.

• 33:05Speaker 02

  The goal: to figure out the best ways to teach.

• 33:09Speaker 04

  They evaluated different philosophies of education.

• 33:12Speaker 02

  When it was over, one approach stood above the rest.

• 33:19Speaker 02

  But a lot of people didn't like it.

• 33:21Speaker 05

  One educator has called the approach totalitarian, another horrible.

• 33:26Speaker 02

  The kind of teaching that worked so well? Most schools don't do it. I'm Emily Hanford. On the new season of Sold a Story, we investigate why. Follow Sold a Story in your podcast app.