#1103 Geoff Woo On Why Mr. Beast & Jake Paul Will Be Billionaires

Geoff Woo is an Entrepreneur, Investor, and a partner with Jake Paul at Anti Fund. In this conversation, we discuss the rise of creators, how creators are now private equity firms, Geoff's investment strategies, building vs. investing, and human optimization. We also talk about some of Geoff's companies including HVMN, Betr, Archive.com and more. ======================= The number one name in NFT domains and the world’s most powerful wallet are teaming up to bring something new to the crypto and Web3 world: That’s right, Unstoppable Domains and Blockchain.com partnered to create NFT domain names ending in . Blockchain. It’s the perfect ending to show that you’re a believer in a decentralized future. The Blockchain.com community can get one, for free by signing up for the waitlist here. Free NFT domains provide all the benefits of premium Unstoppable Domains, including fee-free, lifelong ownership. Don’t have a Blockchain.com wallet? No worries, these new domains are available to everyone for as low as $5. Either sign up for a free blockchain.wallet or visit Unstoppabledomains.com to buy your domain today. ================== Bullish is a powerful new exchange for digital assets that offers deep liquidity, automated market making, and industry-leading security. Combining the innovations of DeFi with the regulated environment of traditional finance, Bullish empowers users to trade with certainty and earn passively at scale across variable market conditions, in an environment backed by multibillion-dollar liquidity contributions from the Bullish Treasury. Visit bullish.com/pomp today to learn more. Note: Bullish is licensed by the Gibraltar Financial Services Commission. Virtual assets and related products are high risk. Consult your investment advisor and trade responsibly. Bullish is available in select locations only and not to U. S persons. Visit bullish.com/legal for important information and risk warnings. ======================= Amberdata provides the critical data infrastructure enabling financial institutions to participate in the digital asset class. We deliver comprehensive data and insights into blockchain networks, crypto markets, and decentralized finance. Download our Digital Asset Data Guide at https://www.amberdata.io/pomp ======================= Compass Mining is the world's first online marketplace for bitcoin mining hardware and hosting. Compass was founded with the goal of making it easy for everyone to mine bitcoin. Visit https://compassmining.io/ to start mining bitcoin today! ======================= Exodus is leading the world out of the traditional financial system by building beautiful and user-friendly blockchain products. With its focus on design and user experience, Exodus has become one of the most popular and loved cryptocurrency apps. It’s supported on both desktop and mobile, allowing you to sync your wallet across multiple devices so you can have access to your funds anywhere. Visit exodus.com/pomp for your free download or search Exodus on the App Store or Playstore. ======================= LMAX Digital - the market-leading solution for institutional crypto trading & custodial services - offers clients a regulated, transparent and secure trading environment, together with the deepest pool of crypto liquidity. LMAX Digital is also a primary price discovery venue, streaming real-time market data to the industry’s leading analytics platforms. LMAX Digital - secure, liquid, trusted. Learn more at LMAXdigital.com/pomp =======================

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:02Anthony Pompliano?

  What's up everyone? This is Anthony Pompliano. Most of you know me as Pomp. You're listening to the Pomp Podcast, simply the best podcast out there. Now let's kick this thing off. Jeff Wu is an entrepreneur and investor. He's also partners with Jake Paul and Antifund. In this conversation, we talk about investment strategies, the future of venture capital, building versus investing, and then a number of companies that he's built, including HVMN, Better, Archive.com, and more. I really enjoyed this conversation with Jeff, and I hope you guys enjoy it as well. Once you get in listening to it, let us know on Twitter. What'd you like? What'd you not like? What'd you agree with? What did you disagree with? And what can we do better next time? All right, let's get in this episode with Jeff. I hope you guys enjoy this one.

• 0:41Speaker 01

  Anthony Pompliano runs Pomp Investments. All views of him and the guests on his podcast are solely their opinions and do not reflect the opinions of Pomp Investments. You should not treat any opinion expressed by Pomp or his guests as a specific inducement to make a particular investment or follow a particular strategy, but only as an expression of his personal opinion. This podcast is for informational purposes only.

• 1:04Anthony Pompliano?

  All right, guys. Bang, bang. I've got Jeff here with me. You're a fascinating dude. You're an entrepreneur, an investor, a culture critic. You have kind of this whole span of things. But I think what a lot of people in the tech world are fascinated by is you run a fund called the Antifund with Jake Paul. And when people saw the announcement that you and Jake Paul were going to do a fund, they were like, all right, we know Jeff. He's in tech. He's built companies. He's like, he's legit. Jake is a YouTuber. What is going on here? Why partner with Jake on this? And what is the thought process behind bringing together what are seemingly completely two different worlds, which appears to have a lot of success so far in terms of getting access to deals and making some great investments?

• 1:49Speaker 02

  Yeah, well, Pomp, thanks for having on the program. I mean, I think you were probably one of my first Miami friends from the tech community all coming here almost a couple years ago. Well, I think Jake's going to be President of the United States for 2050. And I actually generally believe that he is, one, is Ohio Cleveland Midwestern boy, swing state, but I also think he personifies the American dream. I mean, he comes from, his dad was like a roofer, his mom was a nurse. And I think his career in terms of dreaming big, Making mistakes, making triumphs along the way. I think that's a very, I think that's

• 2:31Speaker 02

  a very inspiring story. But all seriousness, in terms of like us linking together.

• 2:36Anthony Pompliano?

  But are you serious about, you think he really can become president?

• 2:39Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:39Anthony Pompliano?

  Yeah. I don't doubt that somebody from like the internet culture will absolutely become president in the future. Is it just his background and kind of his story that you think makes him potentially become president? Or is there something else in there?

• 2:52Speaker 02

  I think I'm more ambitious for him than himself. I think he's actually quite humble about it. But I think in terms of like what I've looked at in terms of political dynasties, a lot of it is just name recognition. If you think about the Clinton family, the Bush family, in some ways, they are the aristocracy of America. These are generations of very well-known families that have Bush, Bush, Bush, Clinton, Clinton, Clinton, repeated in the media for decades. And if you look at this era of people who have their name out in the public, I can't name many other people aside from the Paul brothers, maybe

• 3:32Speaker 02

  the Kardashians, some of the YouTubers are up and coming, that have that compounding power, where like, again, like Jake is like 25, right? His brother's like 27. You do another 20, 30 years of compounding and assuming that they keep doing great stuff, don't make, you know, don't fuck up too badly, etc. How much power in terms of compounding interest can you, can you see the guys run with?

• 3:56Anthony Pompliano?

  Yeah. And what's fascinating is they definitely started out as like Vine, then YouTube, then they started to like, kind of be just famous for being famous almost. And now if you look, you're like, wait a minute, like Jake Paul's a professional boxer. Point blank, period. Anyone who says anything else, like you get in the ring with them. Because there's not a lot of people who are willing to do that. And then you look at Logan, like, he's a WWE star, right? And so you're looking like, wait a minute, how did this happen in what actually isn't really that long of a period of time? Like, what is it? 10 years or less, maybe? Where they've made these transitions into kind of the more mainstream audiences? And so your bet is just like, hey, things in motion stay in motion. They're going to continue to do this at a very high level for, you know, two decades, three decades.

• 4:38Speaker 02

  And I think like the brand mode is actually very, very competitive, right? Like, if you're looking at just like fashion brands or consumer brands, how much capital, how much time is it going to take to compete with Apple, Coca-Cola, Louis Vuitton? I mean, literally billions of dollars and decades, centuries of time.

• 4:54Speaker 02

  Fortunately or not, fortunately, human lifespan is around a hundred years. So it's like, okay, if you can start compounding your name and brand and image when you're in your teens, twenties, and also have, I think to your point, which I think very astute, able to transition mediums, because I think most celebrities can actually can't hop platforms. Like you're a singer, you're kind of in that lane. You're just like a business person, you're in that lane. I think the versatility to cross uh, different platforms, and I think Donald Trump personifies this, right? He was real estate guy, reality TV show guy, and then became president. And it's like, okay, it's actually quite genius, quite versatile, and quite rare to be able to be credible across so many different platforms. So I think there is a reaction against, hey, this person is too ambitious.

• 5:40Speaker 02

  He is out of his lane, let's slap them down. And I think there is that anti-body effect when, when someone is too ambitious. I think there is a bit of this human instinct of like pulling people down into their lane. So having this resiliency, and maybe, can I say, uncancellable ability to get hit, be resilient, and then keep compounding. I think it's a very rare attribute from a personality side. You gotta be kind of crazy in terms of just like mental resilience. And then some sort of versatility, genius, smoothness, to be able to spot the trends, chameleon your personality, your image towards that new phenomenon, and, and ride that macro like tailwind.

• 6:22Anthony Pompliano?

  When you all announced the fund, what was the reaction? I saw the public reaction, and some of it was like, haha, this is hilarious. Uh, Jason Calcanis, uh, I think you guys went back and forth with him a little bit, right? And like, I love Jason because he's just as much investor as he is entertainer. Like, he really understands the internet. What was it in private? Did you guys get messages of encouragement and support? Were people like, what are you guys doing? What did you personally get in terms of, were people like, hey, you're ruining your career? Or like, what was kind of the, the feedback?

• 6:53Speaker 02

  Yeah, I think, uh... Generally, just super positive. Very thankful for Chris Dixon, Mark Andreessen from A16Z being our first LPs. Had done business with them previously and it was great to see them. Believe in our vision, believe in the execution, believe in what the potential could be. But I think Jake and I have a little bit of a troll personality. I think that's where there is actually a lot of overlapping in terms of ambition and kind of entertainment to ourselves and to the world. So I think when we saw Jason Calcanis like kind of troll us being like, oh yeah, basically, hey Jeff, you're ruining your career like this, like he's like terrible. I think we were just laughing.

• 7:35Speaker 02

  I think it was funny because I feel like Jason is doing the same exact playbook as we are. Like he's out there saying some troll stuff, entertaining, and on the side running a bunch of syndicate money. And it's like, hey, like, in some sense, like, cool, like. I mean, I guess it's like, it's entertaining to that level, but I think, what I think was like the core reason of why we started the fund was that if you look at businesses and what, and entrepreneurs and what they want from their investors, there's only two things that they really care about. One, do you have capital? Because you need money to pay for stuff and keep the lights on. And then two, can you drive attention? And I think with anti-fund, with the rise of additional celebrity-driven funds, Kim

• 8:19Speaker 02

  Kardashian just announced the new PE fund. I think that latter, where if capital is more and more of a commodity, being able to drive attention in an increasingly noisy environment is increasingly powerful. So I don't think it's necessarily, maybe it was novel or a bit of a stunt a couple years ago, but I think when you see the top-tier VC funds building podcasts, building newsletters, you know. Getting celebrity partners on board. I don't think that's changed. I think it's only gonna accelerate towards people that can drive capital, people that can drive attention. And those are the core commodities or levers that any business needs to thrive.

• 9:00Anthony Pompliano?

  Yeah. When you start looking at the creator space, I'm gonna use creator very loosely here because I always ask people like, "Okay, what's a creator? Is Donald Trump a creator? Is a journalist at the New York Times a creator?" Like, everyone is ultimately competing for attention. Rich over at Lightshed, he's the person who I think convinced me of this first, where he's like, TikTok, Netflix, YouTube, Substack, the New York Times, and like, your podcasts are all competitors. I was like, "What are you talking about?" And he was like, "It is an attention game." And ultimately, they are fighting. You're gonna spend two hours on your phone today,

• 9:42Anthony Pompliano?

  or for many of us, six hours, right? Eight hours. I recently saw a video where somebody was asking some of the TikTok stars, "How many hours?" And it was like 10 to 12 hours on their phone. Okay, what are they spending time on? It is a, it's a war of attention. And so, when you see these other creators that are all competing for that, who's doing it well? Like, who do you guys look at and you're like, "That person gets it, that person has really nailed kind of this model?"

• 10:09Speaker 02

  I think we're at that realization, if not even more extreme on that realization, where a New York Times or a Wall Street Journal is like a basically institutional blog.

• 10:22Anthony Pompliano?

  Yes.

• 10:22Speaker 02

  And some of the best writers from those very storied publications become stars themselves, right? And I think there's a tension with the employees of these media corporations becoming superstars and then starting their own corporations, right? Like, folks like Kara Swisher, she was a quote-unquote "classic journalist," but I would argue that she's more of a star now. She has her own podcast, runs her own conference. If she wanted to raise a VC fund, I'm sure she could raise a VC fund. So, to your point, I think that there are just different labels and different flags that you can kind of wrap around, where like, "Hey, I'm gonna have more of a journalistic..."

• 11:00Speaker 02

  I want to be, you know, the fifth wall, the fourth wall version of a content creator. Or I'm going to be the start of myself and have my, my personal conflicts of interest and personality out there. And I think with the more politicization of these institutional publications, I think the public perception is that everyone is just biased anyways.

• 11:23Anthony Pompliano?

  Of course, you're human. How, how does anybody say, I'm not biased? Like, you're full of shit. You are definitely biased. You may write in a way that removes bias, or mitigates it, or tries to hide it, or whatever. But like, at the end of the day, if we ask anybody, whether it's politics, it's finance, it's just kind of general coverage, do you agree that this person is right or wrong? Or do you, you know, what's your stance on this topic? They have opinions. Like, they are biased.

• 11:48Speaker 02

  And I think it's healthy if we all just accept it. Right? Like, this is not how this fake hypocrisy of like, hey, I'm actually just like the truth dictator, and everyone else has got to like, listen. But to answer your direct question, I think, I think in terms of like, groups or teams that are working really well on just a broad content creator side, I would say that Mr. Beast, Knight Media, executing super well, Milk Boys, Full Send, exiting super well. And I think like, but I think like, even like, looking up to you, like, I think what you're doing from the tech, investment, content side, I mean, like, there's a method to the madness in terms of just like pumping out content in shorts. I mean, I think it's actually interesting in terms of innovator's dilemma,

• 12:29Speaker 02

  right? Like, the old school institutions have to monetize through ads and subscription revenue. But I think what we're seeing with such as these celebrity brands is that oftentimes, owning brands, owning merch, owning equity formation is actually a more durable business model. And founders like yourself and Beast and what we're doing with Antifund, we can actually do company formation.

• 12:54Anthony Pompliano?

  Yeah.

• 12:54Speaker 02

  Where like, the old school guys have to be like, hey, like, We can't launch companies out of our following.

• 13:00Anthony Pompliano?

  So this is a fascinating topic that requires understanding of history. But if you go back, and I'm going to get some of the exact details wrong. But generally, Sequoia's first fund was in like the 1950s, if I remember correctly. And in it, there was about nine investments, give or take. I think three of them were incubated companies. So they had an idea, they partnered with some founders, they put some capital in, and they owned an outsized portion of the business. And then the remainder, remaining part of the fund was all outside investment, just traditional venture capital. Of that, two of the three companies they incubated delivered majority of the returns for that fund. Now, part of it was the companies worked. Another part of it was they had outsized ownership of the business.

• 13:44Anthony Pompliano?

  But that is really the like dawn of venture capital was actually incubating plus putting capital out into minority positions in other companies. And the reason why that's interesting is because over a 50, 60, almost 70 year timeframe, we have seen much less incubation. And people just were like, oh, it's so much easier to just find people and just give them money and get smaller and smaller ownership to now there's people who make investments that could be millions of dollars and they get like half a percent of a business, right? But what we are starting to see and what you're getting at here is like, the new venture capitalists are not people just with funds looking to invest in other people's things. The new venture capitalists are showing up and like, we're returning back to the 1950s of Sequoia. And like, we can build the companies better than other folks because there's distribution,

• 14:29Anthony Pompliano?

  there's compounding knowledge, which is actually a very underrated thing. And then there's either access to capital where they're able to raise funds and do all this. We're just like, the businesses are so profitable that they have the cash flow to actually go and, and build these. And so like, if you look at Beast as an example, like Jimmy's launched how many businesses in the last two years? I can think of just off the top of my head, he has all the different channels. He has the translation service for other YouTubers. He has the Beast Burger. He has the chocolate bars, right? And there's probably others that I'm not even thinking of. And you're like, that dude's not a creator. Like that guy literally owns a private equity fund or like an incubator. And he is outperforming everyone else. Like I bet you his returns are better than the top venture capitalists in the world.

• 15:15Speaker 02

  Yeah, I, I, I mean, he literally just raised a hundred million dollar fund with the Churnin Group. So they are going down that path and. I mean, I think even if you look at just traditional enterprise software companies, Snowflake was essentially incubated out of Sutter Hill Ventures, right? And I think it's like to the point that you see these like emergent, random, super big software companies, like a lot of these have like very calculated strategic capital and go to market. And I think, again, going back to what I think are the core commodities, one, access to capital, which goes back to relationships and trust, and then proven distribution advantage, which again, takes, it takes a lot of time and energy to get your brand and be trusted

• 15:59Speaker 02

  as someone that can offer a great product or service. And then I think just within my entrepreneurial career, you're seeing that those two things compound and are just quite actually defensive moats. And you just see that the people that do it really, really well have really great access to capital and really great access to distribution. So again, if you just boil down, if you didn't have anything, if you could be the best coder, the best marketer, oftentimes if you can guarantee capital and distribution, you can hire those people. So I think like the conversation of what is the best strategy as a founder individually

• 16:40Speaker 02

  to do company formation, and then how do you partner with operators? I think it's actually a good time to just pull back and think, hey, from first principles, what are the most important things to double down on?

• 16:52Anthony Pompliano?

  So people will hear us talking about this and like, who the fuck are these guys, right? You built a business, HVMN, which has built a ton of different products, but I think the story of how you've built some of these products really shows kind of the blocking and tackling, the execution of not only being able to build products, but then go sell those products. So talk to us a little bit as to that first business, like how did you come up with the idea of going after this? And why did you think it was such a big enough opportunity to spend your time and energy on it?

• 17:21Speaker 02

  Even before HVMN, our ketone IQ, our ketone drink company, I actually studied computer science at Stanford, had a little mobile app company. And at the time, Y Combinator was fairly new. We were helping Paul Graham and Jessica Livingston throw startup school and events at Stanford campus. So I got to know the YC people pretty early. So me and a couple buddies decided to start a mobile app company. Long story short, it was called GlassMap. It was very, very early in the social location mobile space. We built the most efficient battery tracking algorithm for mobile. So this is before location services. This is like early, early iOS where tracking your location on iOS would drain your battery in three, four hours.

• 18:06Speaker 02

  So we had a, instead of a, long story short, we had a really smart algorithm in kind of hijacking the voice over IP hook.

• 18:14Anthony Pompliano?

  Very smart.

• 18:14Speaker 02

  To control your data. So it's server driven in terms of location tracking versus device or local driven. Long story short, met Mark Zuckerberg because they were looking at acquiring the space. And this was like three months after we launched. And I think we had very big entrepreneurial dreams. We turned down an acquisition offer there at a pre-IPO Facebook campus. It was kind of.

• 18:40Anthony Pompliano?

  Do you regret it? Do you regret it?

• 18:41Speaker 02

  Yeah, we would have made way more money then. Eventually selling to Groupon, which is also a great outcome for being like 23, 24 at the time. But I actually don't regret it in the sense that like, it's very easy to be arrogant when you're getting very early success. And I think that like six, nine, 12 months of like getting an acquisition interest and then just grinding and be like, hey, like we were growing linearly, but not exponentially. And in startup land, if you're not growing exponentially, you're nothing.

• 19:08Anthony Pompliano?

  Yep.

• 19:08Speaker 02

  Right? That's just a polarized business model and outcomes. And then we pivoted to B2B and just really grinding like kind of more SMB sales. Eventually, our technology got a couple patents from it. So I own a couple software algorithm patents that we sold to Groupon. And then we were part of the merchant OS team. So we're very, very early in the wallet point of sales. You know, we're talking with. The Square team as well to make a bidding dynamic for the acquisition. But just getting some real brass tacks of like, hey, it's actually friggin hard to make money and make something of of value was really useful for me as like a twenty one, twenty two, twenty three year old.

• 19:44Anthony Pompliano?

  Yeah.

• 19:45Speaker 02

  I think if I just punched out, made millions of dollars at twenty three after like launching something that like didn't really actually have a lot of users or actually add a lot of utility. I think added resiliency and understanding, that's probably worth more than like the initial upfront like quick flip that I would have gotten.

• 20:00Anthony Pompliano?

  Yeah, well, i- it's uh it's fascinating too, because it's right out of school. So like, there's like the theoretical kind of academic world.

• 20:06Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 20:06Anthony Pompliano?

  Which uh obviously if you study computer science, like you're gonna get uh uh education, you're gonna get knowledge, you're gonna get some like experience in the classroom. But to then go out and if you almost just like do it, like I've had this where you have quick success doing something in here like.

• 20:19Speaker 02

  You're just like, hella.

• 20:20Anthony Pompliano?

  I'm a fucking genius.

• 20:23Anthony Pompliano?

  It's better to then get punched in the face and be like, no, no, hold on a second. Like, there is this grind to it because it then uh serves you uh better later on, right?

• 20:31Speaker 02

  No, hundred percent. Um, so that, so uh having that, again, relatively early success, I would say that it gave me time to explore. And I just really got into biohacking and and human performance. And I think it was just like tinkering with nootropics, ketogenic diet, fasting. So if you remember in like twenty fifteen, um, there's like a bunch of articles and media around Silicon Valley biohackers and smart tricks, Silicon Valley people and fasting and all this stuff. And maybe I can claim a little bit of credit there. Like, we eventually ran the largest online biohacker community based on the Silicon Valley. So we had like eighty thousand people like doing fasting and all these experiments with us.

• 21:15Speaker 02

  And that was like kind of my first iteration through a lot of podcasting content. We had like Netflix, Showtime, and all these different like shows come and watch me eat like raw meat.

• 21:25Anthony Pompliano?

  What's the craziest thing? What's the craziest thing you did?

• 21:29Speaker 02

  Um, probably the. I did a seven day water fast, so I didn't eat any food for seven days.

• 21:35Anthony Pompliano?

  Okay, what happens when you do that? Like, what would your body go through?

• 21:39Speaker 02

  Well, your body goes into ketosis, which it runs out of stored carbohydrate, stored sugar. It starts eating, or you start converting your body fat into energy. So, you know, our bodies are actually quite resilient. When I first embarked on this, and this is after studying the literature and talking to doctors and PhDs, I thought that like it was actually just impossible not to eat for like two days or one day, right? Like, it's like, hey, like, I remember my mom being like, "Don't skip meals, it's bad for you, right? Eat your breakfast."

• 22:09Speaker 02

  I think the biggest learning I got from it was

• 22:13Speaker 02

  actually understanding stimulus and how your body interprets things. And I think I realized that I finally understood what true hunger is versus the bored. I am physically, like, literally neurochemically bored. I want a dopamine hit by like drinking something of and having some like flavor in my mouth. Or I'm like literally bored sitting, so I need to like move around and go consume something.

• 22:38Speaker 02

  And that embarked on just like a self-exploration around reading a lot of eastern philosophy, western philosophy, meditation. And I think where it applied a little bit more to business is that I realized that most of our stress is intellectual stress and we actually, our bodies are adapted towards responding to physical danger. So essentially, if you have like a legal problem or a business problem, your body naturally reacts as if you're going into a fight or flight fight, right? You're drilling dumps, you're literally trying to fight someone, your heart rate goes up. And going through fasting, understanding what true hunger was versus like false bored hunger,

• 23:20Speaker 02

  I think was very informative for me to, from a mental resilience perspective, realize that basically every single business or modern civilization problem is not a physical, someone trying to kill you problem. It's someone is like suing you, or like there's a business negotiation, or you like you have a conflict with your boss. But it's like a very intellectual. And decreasing your physical response, like just mentally be like, "Hey, no one's trying to kill me."

• 23:48Speaker 02

  Like calm the F down and just process it like very cold logically ruthlessly from a rational perspective has been very, very helpful as like a hack to be able to deal with a lot of requests and stressful situations. Because I think it is actually very scary when like you have your first legal dispute or contract dispute or business dispute or like you negotiate a salary or a new job. And oftentimes you're like in this fight mode and oftentimes being trying to fight someone or run away from someone in that conversation is actually very, very bad for outcome. So I think through all this physical biohacking experimentation, I think it just really made

• 24:31Speaker 02

  me attuned towards the natural evolutionary pathway of how to respond to stimuli versus like what is the more rational, logical way, given that we're in a very, very different game. Like most of the problems that all of us deal with are modern civilizational games versus like physical, I'm going into a fight scenario.

• 24:52Anthony Pompliano?

  Yeah. And so as you're going through this process, like there's almost like a self-exploration, right? There's like a, oh, I learned something that's cool. Maybe I tell my friends. You start a company, right? Like, why start a company? And how did you think about like the commercial kind of value or opportunity versus just being like, hey, I'm a badass now because I understand how, you know, the human body works better than the people I deal with on a daily basis. Maybe I can use that to like my own advantage.

• 25:16Speaker 02

  Yeah, I think it's actually just actually quite tactical. So at the time, in circa 2014, nootropics, which is like a, like a technical term for brain enhancing compound supplements. The Reddit community was growing quickly and the natural Google trends was growing quickly. So I felt like at the time, there was this untapped, growing community behind this exploration or this revisiting of can I enhance my cognitive ability through diet, behavior, exercise, et cetera? And then it was very like lean startup mode.

• 25:59Speaker 02

  I coded the, a little landing page on Ruby on Rails and was taking pre-orders. So it's basically like a day of like buying domain nutrbox.com at the time, getting a pre-sales landing page, hooking into Stripe and collecting credit cards, and then posting on Hacker News. Like that was like the experiment at the time. I remember we got 34 pre-orders for like 30 bucks of product at the time. So I pre-sold a thousand bucks of revenue and I was kind of crazy enough to be like, yo, I, I should just fulfill them.

• 26:32Speaker 02

  And we just didn't really stop. And then we, I think it was like three, four months later, or like six months later, we were doing like 80K a month of sales. Just like rinse, repeat, like, ah, like, ah, I guess we gotta just fricking do this now.

• 26:45Anthony Pompliano?

  Yeah.

• 26:46Speaker 02

  So that's like a million run rate business. And I was like, okay, uh, maybe we should kind of scale this up properly. Go from like hobbyist, um, homebrew version of nootropic supplements. So like, hey, let's actually develop, uh, you know, hire PhDs, build out a proper supply chain and all of that. And I think that's been an amazing platform to go from nootropics into fasting, into eventually acquiring IP and, and, and know-how from a DARPA research program.

• 27:13Anthony Pompliano?

  Describe this process, cause for, for those that don't know, there's this ketone IQ that recently has come out. It's a daily ketone supplement.

• 27:20Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 27:21Anthony Pompliano?

  Uh, I took about, I don't know, was it 15 milliliters, uh, is that right? Before we started, I think I'm high right now.

• 27:29Anthony Pompliano?

  You're supposed to take what 30 or so a day. So maybe halfway through I'll, I'll come down and do it again. But, uh, when I saw this come out, I was like, oh, this isn't like, uh, in my head, I was like, this isn't fuckery, right? Like this isn't like, hey, we just like read some books and decided to come up with something like, there's like real science to this.

• 27:45Speaker 02

  Yep.

• 27:46Anthony Pompliano?

  So describe a little bit about this process of like going to DARPA, getting the actual IP and then being able to commercialize it with great success so far.

• 27:53Speaker 02

  Yeah. So as I was going down that rabbit hole of biohacking human performance.

• 28:01Speaker 02

  Essentially like self-taught, like pretty advanced levels of metabolic biochemistry. And around 2016, 2017, there was a number of published literature showing that exogenous consumable ketones were able to enhance cycling performance and enhance physical endurance. And this was all in the backdrop of me really getting into fasting, me getting the ketogenic diets, me experimenting with carnivore diet. So I remember I see like Liver King running around all the time. Like I was doing like two-month blocks of carnivore back in like 2016, 2017. So it's cool to see kind of that reemergence of some of these like interesting axiomatic principles of nutrition.

• 28:40Anthony Pompliano?

  Were you eating bowl testicles?

• 28:42Speaker 02

  Uh, did not, was able, didn't go for bowl testicles, was eating a lot of liver, actually.

• 28:47Anthony Pompliano?

  Yeah.

• 28:48Speaker 02

  I actually like offal, like it's actually very standard in

• 28:52Anthony Pompliano?

  Other countries.

• 28:52Speaker 02

  Cantonese, Chinese cuisine. I'm just like eating this stuff as a, growing up as a kid. So it's like, oh, okay, like I will compete with Liver King on eating liver, man. Like, let's go. I'm not afraid of that. I like eating weird stuff. It's actually one of my pleasures. That sounded weird. But, um, so, so in the, in the substrate of like doing a lot of fasting, really understanding ketosis, and then realizing that, hey, um, it's actually really hard to like not eat for three days, not eat for seven days. I remember like the first few times, just like feelings like not being able to really sleep on day two, day three, or that, that evening.

• 29:27Anthony Pompliano?

  Because of hunger?

• 29:29Speaker 02

  Yeah, your, your body's not used to just like, your, your body's like, hey, I'm starving. Like Jeff, wake up, go hunt and eat.

• 29:35Anthony Pompliano?

  Yeah.

• 29:36Speaker 02

  Um, you're dying, right?

• 29:37Anthony Pompliano?

  Yeah.

• 29:37Speaker 02

  Um, but that'd be very interesting. After you pass, uh, this, the third night, your hunger actually attenuates. You feel very zen. It's like you're very clear. So I think when you hear of these stories of I believe, you know, Socrates for his academy, he would have students fast for ten days before joining the academy. I think there's a lot of this tradition of both religious and academic and philosophical traditions of people fasting before going and entering the school as a proof of devotion, but also just like a clarification of mind. Also, it's very interesting that like shamanic rituals of plant medicine, ayahuasca, there's like a purging and fasting involved with it too. I think there's a lot of interesting cultural substrate around

• 30:18Speaker 02

  this notion of fasting and purification and clearing your mind. So I think there's a lot of little, I would say like Lindy cultural things that say that, hey, there's something to fasting, right? Moses was fasting, you know, all these like biblical stories about people fasting. So if I can skip the pain of and the discipline of fasting and just like drink ketones and get a lot of the benefits, that seems like a super massive problem to solve.

• 30:47Anthony Pompliano?

  Yep.

• 30:49Speaker 02

  And apparently, in the early 2000s, DARPA also had asked that same question. Can scientists create a liquid super field that gets you a more efficient energy source? And it's a kind of a crazy story because the vice chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, this gentleman, General Peter Pace, who was the first Marine general that became a chairman of the Joint Chiefs, was the vice chairman of DARPA at the time and actually signed off on this research program called Operation Metabolic Dominance.

• 31:20Anthony Pompliano?

  What a fucking badass name.

• 31:22Speaker 02

  Yeah, it just sounds badass. And now, you know, essentially, almost, you know, twenty years later, he's on our board, helping us, advising us on how to take this and scale this technology up to the, to the, to the, to the next, I guess, stage. But at the time, one dose of this was cost $2,500.

• 31:42Anthony Pompliano?

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• 32:27Anthony Pompliano?

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• 33:11Anthony Pompliano?

  Amber Data delivers comprehensive data and insights into blockchain networks, crypto markets, and decentralized finance, empowering financial institutions to apply traditional finance methods to digital assets. Amber Data eliminates the infrastructure setup, integrated challenges, and maintenance headaches to access digital assets data, reducing cost and time to market to enter the digital asset class. Learn more and download their digital asset data guide at www.amberdata.io/pomp. Again, that's amberdata.io/pomp. Go check them out today. So one dose being 30 milliliters.

• 33:45Speaker 02

  Like, yeah, like basically 10, 25 grams of ketones.

• 33:48Anthony Pompliano?

  Yep, would cost $2,500.

• 33:50Speaker 02

  Per dose.

• 33:51Anthony Pompliano?

  And is that because of bureaucracy with military pharmaceutical industry? Is that because of the materials?

• 33:57Speaker 02

  No, just straight up the technology to manufacture. So like many organic chemicals, it's a carbon backbone. It's a, it's a carbon-based molecule, ketones. So our body naturally converts fatty acids in the liver, called ketogenesis, into these ketone bodies. So it's just like a organic chemistry process that your liver does. When it's under the presence of no, no glucose hanging around or low glucose hanging around. So the original technology to convert into these ketones was taking crude oil and processing petroleum product into these exogenous ketones. So very dirty, very expensive, very complicated process.

• 34:38Speaker 02

  But what happened in, in recent years is that with the rise of synthetic biology, we could actually code genetically engineered E. coli to ferment sugar into the precursors into the strength. So really it was a technology breakthrough, not like, actually not a bureaucracy breakthrough. So by fermenting sugar with, with bugs, a much more efficient process. So it took, you know, we had a version one of this product that costs $30 a dose. And a lot of our customers were Tour de France teams, MMA athletes. And that was actually my initial foray, getting to know a lot of athletes. You know, getting to know Lance Armstrong, Apollo Ono, and then, you know, Conor McGregor's the world, Jake Paul's the world.

• 35:22Speaker 02

  It's actually all due through ketones and then.

• 35:25Anthony Pompliano?

  And they were on like some search. They knew that, hey, if I can get deeper and deeper into ketosis, my metabolism and my kind of metabolic health, all this stuff will improve and therefore I can be more dominant at my sport. And so they were already kind of in the science and trying to find this stuff. Or would you guys go and be like, hey, I know you're, you know, gifted as an athlete, but like there's this whole science thing you should learn about so that you can get better.

• 35:47Speaker 02

  It's actually the former. So I think what I realized, being able to work with, you know, the tip of the spear elite operators in the military and elite athletes and like business folks or entrepreneurs and tech folks like ourselves. I think everyone.

• 36:03Speaker 02

  Is just like smart and savage about winning.

• 36:06Anthony Pompliano?

  Yes.

• 36:06Speaker 02

  And like the very, very elite athletes are just super disciplined and super structured around gaining edges. Right? Like sport is how do you get an unfair advantage that's fair against your opponents? Same with business, same with every single endeavor of humanity that's that's competitive, right? You're just trying to find advantage. And I would say over the last couple of decades, like the nutrition and training regimens of cycling nutrition, cycling workouts, right? There's like this whole notion of recovery is super important. And you're cycling like heavy workouts and then backing off and doing recovery. I would say like the most elite athletes are also dealing with nutrition. You will have like, you will lower your carbohydrate intake in preseason just to really ramp up your fat oxidation.

• 36:52Speaker 02

  Right? You're almost starving your body, forcing your body to get really, really efficient. And then when you're getting closer to competition, engorge it with like all the nutrition possible. So you're just super flush with energy when you go into your Olympic match or your boxing match, your MMA match. So this notion of exercise cycling and the nutrition cycling, it's like, that is what people are, you know, full-time professionals are studying this and part of these teams. And if you look at just sports medicine, sports physiology before, like in the early 1900s, it was like a gentleman's sport, right? Like you just were like a rich person that had like your family estate. You're gonna just go run the marathon or you compete with other gentlemen.

• 37:34Speaker 02

  And then I would say got a little bit more professionalized. There's like a, a, a coach that would like teach you everything. Hey, do this, do this workout, do the nutrition. And now you look at sports departments, strength and conditioning specialists, nutrition specialists, recovery specialists. I mean, I, I think just seeing like Jake's, Jake Paul's specific camp. I mean, he is like actually crazy sophisticated with like literally a, a full-time breath coach, a full-time like stretching and, and, and like yoga coach, like multiple boxing coaches, a strength and conditioning coach, a chef nutritionist. And I think that's actually quite commonplace with the elite teams in the military as well as elite sports teams. So I would say like the whole sophistication has gotten very, very granular.

• 38:19Speaker 02

  Cause like the difference being gold in, I don't know, 10th place is like so fractional at this time.

• 38:25Anthony Pompliano?

  Yeah. When you see that.

• 38:29Anthony Pompliano?

  Do you think this will get into business as well? So we already see, I don't know, like the super wealthy, they have private chef, or they have, you know, some components of this. They don't think of it so much as maybe performance as they think about it, as it's saving them time, or it's for their family to make life easier, or whatever. But do we know of stories where there are founders who have very specialized coaches for their own physical body? Not, hey, I have a coach that I talk to, you know, for business strategy, or something like that, but like actual physical optimization as performing in the business environment?

• 39:04Speaker 02

  I mean, I, I, I think people talk less about it, but maybe like one just very visible example is Jeff Bezos definitely is on some optimization, right? Like, I mean, he's what, in his 50s and he's just like

• 39:16Anthony Pompliano?

  Ripped.

• 39:17Speaker 02

  Ripped, right? Like, you don't suddenly add 20, 30 pounds of lean muscle tissue without some hormone optimization and all of that.

• 39:25Anthony Pompliano?

  And this is not like, he just like bought some steroids off a fucking website that came from like China and he's like doing like self-administration. Like you're saying, he's literally going to see a physician, like a doctor who specializes in it. They're measuring his blood work probably. They're, they're trying to understand.

• 39:41Speaker 02

  That's such an interesting point. I mean, I didn't think about that angle. But yeah, there are actually a lot of concierge private doctors who cater to tech billionaires and performance, right? So they're like, and this is like a very interesting thing of just like modern American healthcare, which is, I think it's, you know, people talk about really sick care, right? You really only go to the doctor when it's like, I don't know, I've got some problem.

• 40:03Anthony Pompliano?

  Yeah.

• 40:05Speaker 02

  But I think the most optimized CEOs, founders, investors that are in our, in our circles, they're getting their bloods done every month, every quarter, fine tuning everything.

• 40:15Anthony Pompliano?

  Is that what you do? Like, what, what is your regiment? Both exercise, maybe like from a physician in interaction and then also from a diet or nutrition?

• 40:25Speaker 02

  Yeah. So, yeah. So like when I was like super measuring everything, I was doing monthly blood draws, optimizing every single micronutrient, hormone levels, just, I guess an analogy is that like, we have dash, real-time dashboards for your business.

• 40:42Anthony Pompliano?

  Yes.

• 40:43Speaker 02

  You probably know more about your car health and your, your house, your apartment health. And what, like, for a lot of Americans, like we go, we like hate to go, maybe go to it once a year, maybe once a couple of years to just get some baseline panels.

• 40:58Speaker 02

  It it it it seems backwards. We're like, we should be getting realtime dashboards of just all our bodies' metrics. So it's very time-intensive, just, I don't know, I don't like being stuck with needles. So, but I think in terms of just like, understanding what you can do, I think it's actually quite material when it's like, oh, like, my vitamin D levels. And I think most people's vitamin D levels are very, very low. Because we're just indoors all the time.

• 41:25Speaker 02

  So I think all these things that we should be tracking, because like, our bodies are our most valuable asset, we're not really doing. So I think when there's like, companies that like, are, you know, leveled with the CGM, and I think Eight Sleep, you know, Mateo, our mutual friend, is tracking HRV and sleep metrics. I think it's all directionally in the right way of how to be better humans, right? Like, we should be metrics-driven on our bodies.

• 41:48Anthony Pompliano?

  Yeah. Why is testosterone falling so aggressively? This is like, the thing that whenever I talk to people who maybe are like, surface-level educated, they're always like, oh, testosterone's falling. You know, every 20 years, it's like, getting cut in half or whatever. Do you have thoughts there, or have you guys looked at any of this stuff in terms of, one, is it important that it's falling, right? Like, should we be concerned about it? And then, any ideas as to why that's happening?

• 42:10Speaker 02

  Yeah. I think it's actually just like, a very open scientific question. The leading hypothesis is, there's just a lot of EP, like, BPAs in, essentially like, plastics that are estrogen-mimicking compounds are just floating around in the environment. A lot of like, fragrances are estrogenizing. So, a lot of the modern environment and modern like, niceties of plat, like disposable plastics, fragrances, cleaning materials, all impact your hormone levels. So, one, I think it is a real problem. And I think there's also just like a lot of like funny things for like, for example,

• 42:52Speaker 02

  like nicotine actually is anti aromatizing, so it stops the conversion of testosterone to estrogen. So with the reduction of like nicotine is probably a good thing, compounded with prevalence of plastics and then increase in obesity and diabetes. So the conversion, the aromatization of testosterone into estrogen is caused primarily happens in your adipose tissue. So if we as a society are getting fatter with more adipose tissue, there are more sites for conversion of testosterone to estrogen. So I think it's like all these environmental factors, these metabolic factors that are

• 43:34Speaker 02

  causing this reduction of testosterone. Do I think it's a good or bad thing? I think it's a very material thing. Like, I don't have like a priori judgment on T and estrogen, but if it's a science experiment over the last 20, 30, 50 years, where humanity has succeeded in not killing ourselves over the last millennia, and now we're running this experiment where the hormone levels of half of humanity are changing quite drastically over a year, measurable year-to-year period, I think it's potentially very, very dangerous.

• 44:16Speaker 02

  I mean, I think you can kind of start speculating, does that impact politics, does that impact culture, does that impact societal preferences? Look, we can kind of speculate there, and you could probably get into trouble by speculating a little bit too far. But I think it, at least like, that's something that I care about personally, right? Like, if I were to advise myself or friends, like, hey, I've been talking to friends, like, hey, get your T levels measured. And it's actually very surprising, like... Being able to have these conversations with athletes, with entrepreneurs. Actually, a lot of my friends who are in their twenties that are high level athletes, high level entrepreneurs, actually have very low T levels.

• 44:56Anthony Pompliano?

  Yes.

• 44:57Speaker 02

  Compared to what their grandfathers are, right? I don't know if it's due to stress, environment, you know, having that, you know, extra drink on the weekend because you're stressed out. All these things actually compound. I think there's a lot of great literature how testosterone actually makes effort feel good. I mean, that's just like, it actually impacts neurochemistry. So I think from a productivity, traditional masculinity perspective, I think these are like very, very like important questions. I think when you have, you know, I really enjoyed your conversation with Andrew Tate. I think he's opening up questions and conversations around what is traditional masculinity? Is there a place in this modern world?

• 45:38Speaker 02

  And I think it would be, it would be silly to think that changing testosterone levels does not contribute to that conversation.

• 45:46Anthony Pompliano?

  Yeah. It, um, people can't listen to the conversation on YouTube because they took it down.

• 45:52Anthony Pompliano?

  Go to Apple Podcasts. When you put this into my body, for those that didn't see, I just took another 15 milliliters of this, so I think I'm topped out for the day. It's 10 grams of ketones per serving. What the hell is going on in my head? Like, why do I feel like, uh, maybe I like clearer or sharper or high, whatever you, whatever terminology you want to use. What is this actually doing to my body?

• 46:19Speaker 02

  Yeah, so.

• 46:19Anthony Pompliano?

  I should have asked that before I took it.

• 46:20Speaker 02

  No, no, I love it.

• 46:22Anthony Pompliano?

  You took it first, so I figured we were good.

• 46:24Speaker 02

  That's a true friend. So ketones are actually a preferred energy for the brain. So ketones cross the blood brain barrier. And when there's presence of ketones, your brain actually metabolizes ketones in preference to glucose. So the really cool thing about ketones is that now we're going to go into, uh, like high school bio. If you remember the Krebs cycle, the ATP cycle.

• 46:46Speaker 02

  We have mitochondria, which are kind of the power plants of the cells. It takes energy and oxygen and it converts and turns into ATP, the energy currency. So the cool thing about ketones is that ketones produce more ATP per oxygen. So it's literally at the biochemical level, more efficient than sugar. So that is like one of the key reasons why some of the research we're doing with the military relate to cognition, reaction time at high altitude. So if you think about taking people up to 40,000 feet, think Afghanistan mountain ranges. When you have less oxygen, your reaction time slows, your decision making slows.

• 47:29Speaker 02

  If there are energy substrates that can produce more ATP per unit oxygen and when there's less oxygen available and you're able to preserve function, that's very useful from a military application, but of course from like

• 47:45Speaker 02

  like an intellectual creator, you know, application, very useful as well.

• 47:49Anthony Pompliano?

  Yeah, it it's a fascinating conversation right now because I recently had Kaj Larson, a pretty well-known Navy SEAL. And we were talking about all of the controversy in SEAL training. And so now there's people who are claiming like, oh, there's like rampant steroid use and like all this crazy stuff. And I'm like, did y'all want to know what was going on in every single military school I ever went to? Like people were popping Advil, right? Because like their bodies hurt, right? And like, is that rampant? Is that abuse? Is that whatever? Like, I don't know. But I can tell you that in the military, guess where else that was super popular? In a college football locker room where guys were taking Percocets and all kinds of stuff before they went out and played. Right? And so like you, you start to look at this, you're like, man, okay. So we know people are going to take things because either want an edge, they want to contain pain, they want recovery, they want whatever.

• 48:34Anthony Pompliano?

  But a lot of in the military specifically, it's like, what can we put on the soldier? So it was like, let's give them night vision. Cool. We've like now made this like thing that can see in the night. And our warriors can go out in the night when other people can't see, right? We've got scopes, we've got body armor, we've got like all these things that are external to the body that we are essentially trying to create like the Robocop soldiers, right? To whatever degree. You then supplement that with things like Andro, which I know you guys invested in in terms of better intelligence, better information, better technology. But really what you're talking Talking about is like, well, what happens if we also could improve the soldiers in the military use case from the inside out?

• 49:10Speaker 02

  Yep.

• 49:10Anthony Pompliano?

  And going on a 10 mile run as fast as you possibly can, to some degree is trying to strengthen the body and then build endurance and like do all this stuff. But like, there's probably other things that we can do. And if we have our soldiers eating cupcakes all day versus eating like a healthy diet, like they're being coached to eat healthy, not eat shit. So what is the difference between like, don't smoke cigarettes, you know, don't eat a bunch of sugar? And like, oh, by the way, drink this drink that is going to help you in some way. Like, it feels like a natural extension to me.

• 49:37Speaker 02

  Yeah. Um, yeah, I mean, I think one of the coolest career experiences that, you know, through HVM, we became a military contractor. So we have a multimillion dollar contract with Special Operations Command and like getting to know service members really at the tip of the spear and hearing their stories. I mean, being a California LA born, raised, and then a Stanford, like just a California kid and then just like going to Fort Bragg and Virginia Beach and

• 50:08Speaker 02

  you know, Georgia, right? Like it's, it was like, I felt like I just understood America much better.

• 50:15Speaker 02

  By spending time with these guys, um, like they truly believe in this country. I mean, they're, they're bleeding and had you know, and, and people, you know, like lost their lives, like defending our, our way of life. So it's been like, I think one of the, honestly, like one of the privileges or the coolest parts of my career so far.

• 50:37Speaker 02

  But I think that

• 50:46Speaker 02

  there's actually like interesting, like bureaucracy and like contracting related stuff where you have to be careful about human experimentation. There's actually like a very interesting, I would say, like regulatory contracting vehicles that we've just gotten exposure and a lot of learning from. Um, so.

• 51:05Speaker 02

  I think there's a lot of good effort by the general staff, the senior NCOs, and then the civilian staff, looking to improve the process. Because I think you're actually right. Like, it's much easier to just have a better widget to install on someone's, over someone's body versus like, hey, how do we take care of the individual service member? Without crossing lines of human experimentation, ethics, human safety, all of that. So I think, and it's probably the right approach. You've got to be a little bit more thoughtful. Because I think, going back to even just steroids and all this stuff, my experience has been that the higher tier units,

• 51:48Speaker 02

  they're like, super locked down in terms of what they can take and what they can't take. And they're just very, very serious about it. So probably the right approach to be relatively conservative with dealing with our, you know, the tier one operators that are really the tip of the spear for our country. But can we have a little bit more speed, a bit more innovation? I mean, hopefully, that kind of the Silicon Valley approach can speed things up. And I think, to your point around Andoril, I think it's great to have new blood, new approaches, mixed in with institutional safeties.

• 52:20Anthony Pompliano?

  Yeah. One of the things with Andoril specifically that blows my mind is when I think of the big, prime contractors, like, I think about lobbying. I think about dinners, suits and ties. Like, there's just, for whatever reason, it's an overgeneralization, but like, there's a lot of, just like, it's a machine. It moves at a machine's pace. And it's more based on like, you know us, you trust us, you like us, and like, we can get this done efficiently. Whereas Andoril showed up and was like, yeah, yeah, that's all cool, but like, we have a better fucking widget, right? And I do think that we're seeing this across society, right? If you think a lot about, go back to the media, for example, like, there's a lot of publications that just kind of were like resting on their laurels,

• 53:02Anthony Pompliano?

  being like, you know us, you trust us, we're kind of the big institution, you know, chill out, we'll get you the information efficiently. And then somebody else just showed up and was like, no, like, you guys are wrong. Like, I have a different opinion, and like, this is like, something that people want.

• 53:14Speaker 02

  Yep.

• 53:15Anthony Pompliano?

  Do you see that when you're actually evaluating markets and businesses? I know that you guys built like archive.com as an example. Like it just seems one of the key pieces to your career, the threads through it is that you guys actually are going after markets that people have been looking at for a while, but it's in some new, unique way or with some new, you know, type of approach that ends up actually being fairly disruptive.

• 53:37Speaker 02

  I think you have to believe that if you're in a, in a, in a, or in an upstart position. And I think, I feel like history is on our side where there is this innovator's dilemma. This, uh, this, this, this sludge that accrues when it's like the third, fourth, fifth generation, where the ownership and the, and the vision is really diluted across managing professional money bean counters.

• 54:02Speaker 02

  Yeah, I mean, I think for, I mean, I, I like, I, I think just even for like, like currency, right? Like, you know, I think we talked a lot about crypto and I think last year was like a crazy time for crypto.

• 54:17Speaker 02

  Like I, I want a world where people can choose better systems to partake in. I mean, I think it would suck to be forced to, you know, like I, when I see like the British royalty, I think it's like kind of crazy that like, hey, they're literally having to pledge their allegiance and they're like, I feel very lucky to be in America. I pledge allegiance to a flag or a constitution or an idea, but literally our friends over, across the pond, literally the pledge to a queen or a king. And it's like, damn, like, I thought this is like some Game of Thrones stuff. Like you gotta literally bend the knee to get a, a word from like some nice, you know, friendly elder.

• 54:57Anthony Pompliano?

  The queen was getting a dollar a head from every person who lived in Australia. Still, like there's a dollar a head tax on every Australian because it was like still a, a queen, you know, land or whatever. You're like, yo, fuck that. And I, and I get that, like, there's a reason why it's there, how they came upon it. There's no one who's been like disrupting it. A lot of times when it comes to this geopolitical stuff, there has to be like revolution and war. All these things that actually people who have been exposed to that stuff are like, hey, you want to avoid that at all costs and only use it as a last resort. Uh, but it is wild in 2022 that the citizens of Australia were paying a tax, someone who lives across the world.

• 55:40Speaker 02

  Yeah, and they're private estate and then, and then like the queen is able to just transfer all her assets to Charles, right? It's just like, oh, man, like different roles being played. Um, so like, I think like, yeah, and I, and I think when you look at that, when you step back like, hey, like there are just a lot of like, systems with government that might have made sense at the time, a lot of legacy, a lot of institution. But like, can we rewrite today?

• 56:03Anthony Pompliano?

  Mm hmm.

• 56:04Speaker 02

  Um, I think if you and I just were deciding like things to like start anew, like I think we'd build a lot of things differently. And I think a lot of people that are listening probably think the same way. So when it is looking at new opportunities and new approaches, I think that's what we live, breathe, and we'll die. That's a hill we'll die on. Um, that's just how we operate. Like I, I want to operate in a way where I look at every single human, whether you're a barista or you're the queen or king of England, I want to treat you the same and I want to be treated the same as well, right? Like just treat me as an individual, not some weird legacy institutional thing.

• 56:38Anthony Pompliano?

  Mm hmm.

• 56:39Speaker 02

  Um, so hopefully that I think has that, that core axiom has trickled into how I think about business formation. So for archive, um, so two, three years ago, we were, you know, one of the primary direct uh, marketing channels and distribution channels was e-commerce, right? We were pretty early on building our own e-commerce stack, moving over to Shopify, just seeing how everyone is doing the same Facebook, CAC LTV equation, can you acquire and get payback within three months, six months, 12 months? Uh, and then optimizing your landing pages to like reduce your CAC customer acquisition costs, right? There's like a math problem that every single DTC company was doing. Um, I think people got really, really good into, good, good about it.

• 57:19Speaker 02

  Um, but we were quite metrics driven around like, hey, like a lot of the like reported results were actually very, very soft. Um, and I would say two, three years ago, we realized the power of actual community and just thinking, what is the first principles of marketing? It's just like an extended way of like goodwill, like how do you get people talking positively on your brand? And how do you actually uh, manage a digital community? So archive really came from this insight that, hey, doing this, that like, Pay to play, run Facebook, run Google, and then maybe have 10% of your spend on random other like Snap and other stuff. Probably wasn't going to be sustainable.

• 58:01Speaker 02

  I think now that has come true. So we just built a lot of software automation. How do you run a community? How do you actually trigger community events? From someone, for example, posting about your brand? So I'm actually curious, like when someone tags Pomp in a story when they're listening to podcasts, like how is that being managed? Are you just like you have a team, you have a person like physically like looking and reposting, resharing?

• 58:30Anthony Pompliano?

  No, nothing. It's just, it's just if I just see it.

• 58:34Speaker 02

  Which is wild, right? Because like literally 80% of and like most of how we perceive information is through stories.

• 58:40Anthony Pompliano?

  Yes.

• 58:40Speaker 02

  These ephemeral pieces of content.

• 58:42Anthony Pompliano?

  Yes.

• 58:42Speaker 02

  And we realized that like there are literally full-time human jobs, screen saving this content, tracking this content, and then maybe engaging with the creator, be like, hey, can we use this content and repurpose it? And we're like, wait, why is this like a full-time person's job? Like, like at HVM, we had a person doing this every day. And it was like stressful to like manage them on Saturday when they had to go on vacation. Like, ah, someone's got to do this. So we're like, okay, we're a computer science guy, let's build software, automate it. And that was the seed of Archive, like let's automate the workflow capture of all this community-driven events. And now, you know, as we progress, and I think with increasing focus where there's companies like

• 59:26Speaker 02

  Open Store, Skims, like very, very sophisticated, community-oriented brands, can you automate like an API to trigger automatic events? So for example, one of our customers, every time an ambassador posts like an Instagram story of like wearing this underwear or wearing this clothing, they want to give like a reward, like a $10, $20 ACH Stripe payment. Well, doing this manually sucks, especially if you're at scale of a thousand people that you want to be tracking. Why not build software to automate it? So we're just realizing that just this core insight of how do you actually go to where the audience is, where the community is talking about a brand or a product? And build webhooks, build APIs to actually trigger software events around it.

• 1:00:10Speaker 02

  Has been a very interesting opportunity.

• 1:00:13Anthony Pompliano?

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• 1:00:55Anthony Pompliano?

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• 1:01:37Anthony Pompliano?

  It's fascinating when you start to understand that you were doing it with a human. And then you just wrote the software to automate that over time. Are there other things that you all have seen as you've built businesses where humans are doing it? You're like, nah, that's definitely going to be software, you know, two, three years. Like, why don't we just go build it?

• 1:01:56Speaker 02

  I think that's like actually one of the core themes of what we're looking at with anti-fundage software. Where like, I think Jake and I spent a lot of time. I think we're actually like, we want to like, start a company called 247 Industries. That's literally like, an AI home security business. Because I think Jake has had a lot of personal stories where he hires security guards that are around his property. They're just like, take, falling asleep, taking a nap, you know?

• 1:02:26Anthony Pompliano?

  On that specific point, this is actually a thesis, we'll talk about it later. I think that somebody's gonna build a 21st century security business, but not a security business for like, businesses, or even just individual like, homes where there's cameras and stuff. If you think of one of, a very large business that a lot of people don't know about is bodyguards, executives, security, all this stuff. And in Miami, for example, a lot of conferences. So what happens is, a bunch of executives fly here, and some of them will come with their own security. But a lot of them just want to use whatever security's on the ground, or whatever. You see this in other cities where there's a lot of events, Las Vegas, things like that.

• 1:03:09Anthony Pompliano?

  Go and search Miami Bodyguard on Google, you'll be like, I think I just teleported back to 1995.

• 1:03:16Speaker 02

  It's a while west.

• 1:03:17Anthony Pompliano?

  Because it's like, you know, look, and the people who are running these businesses, that's not what they do. They're not technologists, right? So the websites are all built on like, WordPress, they're not updated, they're like, all these things. And so, in some way, there's an opportunity to just like, go build a better one, but have a website that works, right? What you're talking about though is like, no, what if you reimagine the entire thing? And you say, hey, from scratch, you know, just like Andoril looked at, was a defense contractor looking like, this is, you know, what does this look like from a technology standpoint, to protect someone's home, to protect them, to protect their business?

• 1:03:49Speaker 02

  I mean, I think, like, yeah, so I think that's like, one specific instance, but I think that is gonna be an inevitable transformation. I think, like, machine learning, AI, I think you just see like, every single month, there's just like, a breakthrough in terms of game playing. And what is physical reality, but just like, a more complicated game? Than like, a little digital chessboard or a Go board? I mean, you're just adding more and more degrees of freedom. And it's like, okay, the progression seems quite exponential right now. Are there more and more jobs? And I think the question's, oh, like, are you destroying people's livelihoods? And it's like,

• 1:04:27Speaker 02

  That is part of creative destruction. And I honestly don't know if like a retail job is like something that we want, should be happy as society be like, hey, like that is someone's like passion to be in a retail job.

• 1:04:44Speaker 02

  Maybe it is, but like, maybe it's not for a lot of people. I don't think a lot of retail job people are like, yeah, this is my life's passion. Let's be real.

• 1:04:52Speaker 02

  So I think in terms of transformation, market opportunity in just efficiency, I think those are going to be some of the areas that will have a lot of disruption and a lot of opportunity. There will be some short term pain as people transition. But I generally just believe in people's resiliency, right? Like, like, I just never understood like, why like longshoremen for these ports get to have like this weird family, like oligopoly over like America's ports, right? Like, if you just look at, because I grew up in LA County, Palos Verdes, a lot of friends were like families of longshoremen. They're getting paid like a lot of money to just like move crates off of boats and into trucks and ship them off.

• 1:05:35Speaker 02

  And like, these unions are like very, very strong and it's, and they're like, you can't even like, I can't even apply like, like, like, the jobs get passed on like family, the father, the son. And it's like, wait, this is like a weird version of aristocracy where it's like, yo, you were a part of the original longshoremen's group and like, you gotta be, you gotta know them to like even get that really well-paying job. Look, I, I, I support everyone making a livelihood, but is it like, do we actually want some like weird monopoly that's passed on through family lineage to like monopolize like an area that probably could use some updated machinery, updated technology?

• 1:06:13Speaker 02

  I think the answer is yes, because like, again, to your point, like, why does every Australian have to pay the coin? It's like, well, why does every American citizen to like get their, I don't know, whatever their iPhone, you know, pay these guys a tax when it's not a fair competition?

• 1:06:27Anthony Pompliano?

  Yeah. When you look at entrepreneurship today, one of the types of businesses that I'm fascinated by are, uh, there's Trilogy, there's Constellation, uh, there is Tiny, right? In kind of more of a tech oriented way, uh, there's a lot of these that are popping up now where people are going and they're actually acquiring businesses. How do you guys think about buying versus acquiring versus just investing in like a minority stake?

• 1:06:53Speaker 02

  Yeah, I think that's a interesting like, like, like debate that we actually have. I think acquiring business is very hard because one, the infrastructure to maintain and to retain the people that actually know how to like improve the product is actually quite tricky. Like being, having sold the company and being amalgamated into like the Borg of Groupon through my first company Glassmap. I just saw like the, the very difficult challenges of like a properly good M and A integration. Right? Like, I think it's hard from an existing ego perspective because like I remember I, I my probably is getting paid a lot more than like my random coworkers. I just went through the front door.

• 1:07:37Speaker 02

  And then like I had like a bigger ego because I was like, oh, I got, I sold my company and I'm more important. And then it's like, wait, like, I don't think you actually like, those are like the weird subtle dynamics of the human personality side. Now like I think are underspoken about with a big M and A kind of style play. So having been on the acquired side and thinking about if I want to be an acquirer.

• 1:08:00Speaker 02

  I'm, I'm always very skeptical. Like, why are they selling to me now? Because like they understand their business better than I do. And if they're willing to sell it to me, like, why are they just not trying to sell it to me? If there's like some broader reason why our sentence align moving forward, I will feel more comfortable about, about it. But I think it's kind of dangerous to be like, I have, I have strict information disadvantage and you're selling it to me. Why are you doing that?

• 1:08:29Speaker 02

  So I feel like, so like I've been much more on the sky like building and incubating. Because I feel like

• 1:08:39Speaker 02

  maybe with the same amount of effort you, and, and, and selection, you can just go from zero to like, you know, one, two, five million of revenue versus like, hey, I'm gonna Spend five times, 10 times, whatever, multiple, whatever industry to buy someone's thing and then maybe have to rebuild the whole thing anyways.

• 1:08:54Anthony Pompliano?

  Yeah, that's an interesting point of like, do you think about starting businesses? And you're like, hey, the first goal is to get like a million or five million dollars? And it's kind of bottoms up and like, let's get momentum? Or do you think about, you know, is this a billion dollar revenue opportunity? And then like back into here's how we're going to get to a billion dollars in revenue? Like, is it more master plan top down? Or is it more, um, this is an interesting idea. Let's get started, build momentum and it bottoms up.

• 1:09:19Speaker 02

  I think it's like the paradox of having to hold both states in your mind. I think you, so like, I think you always have to have like this narrative, this vision of why this is like a valuable problem that we're spending our scarce resource of time on. So yeah, I want to have this vision of like, hey, how is this going to be a billion dollar company that's worth all of our smart brains and energies and limited effort? But I think when it's like pure narrative, I think that oftentimes is very dangerous because like you just go into like the atmosphere, just raising a bunch of money. You don't actually like make actual business. So I think you choose a good market and I think maybe better our sports betting business is like a good case study for this, right? Sports betting, massive market.

• 1:10:00Speaker 02

  We think it's going to be a growing market as more states legalize sports betting. But like, what is our first, what is our approach to literally get the first state licensed? And how do we acquire our first 100, 1,000, 10,000 users and have a really great experience with them? So I think that is like the challenge in the art, the artistry of entrepreneurship. How do you actually have like this path, this winding path to like a billion dollar opportunity, but like, don't get so full of your ego for it's like, yeah, but you like, you literally need one person to like pay you money to like keep the lights on. So if you can find and hold or have a complimentary team where you can do both, I think that's almost required. It's insufficient to have one or the other.

• 1:10:45Speaker 02

  Like what, how do you get your first five million of revenue?

• 1:10:50Anthony Pompliano?

  I see a lot of investors starting to build companies again, which is exciting. But I also see a lot of entrepreneurs who are previously, they had the dream. They had the, oh, I'm gonna go build the next Airbnb or whatever business. And in conversations over the last six months, market prices come down. I think reality kind of sets in a little bit more. There's more of an acknowledgement of like Airbnb didn't start off with like a multi-billion dollar plan. It started off with like, I have an air mattress in my kitchen.

• 1:11:18Speaker 02

  Yeah, and they're like selling like Captain Crunches or whatever to like pay the bills.

• 1:11:21Anthony Pompliano?

  Absolutely. And so I do think, it goes back to kind of the saying of like, everything valuable starts off looking like a toy. Right? It feels like we are almost kind of re-entering this like, almost a renaissance of like, real founders. And I say real because there is this cohort of like, oh, I think I'm a founder. So I just go to conferences and networking and all the bullshit. And like try to position myself to be Forbes 30 under 30 and put it on my LinkedIn. Versus the people who are just like, no, like I actually don't give a shit about any of that stuff. Like, I just want to figure out how do I build something that like people are willing to either use or buy from me? And that like gets me very excited. It feels like, oh, now if you have ideas, like now's the time to fucking go.

• 1:12:05Anthony Pompliano?

  Leave your job, quit whatever else you're working on, like go. Because for the next two to three years, you're gonna see like this capital injection into the early stages. You're gonna see a renaissance of all this stuff. And five, six, seven years from now, we'll be talking about the companies that are started right now.

• 1:12:18Speaker 02

  Yeah. I mean, I think also just broadly, I think like the best investors I know, I think think of themselves as founders. I think we're all just like building stuff. And I think if I, when I was less mature as an entrepreneur, I would always look at like VCs or investors as like, oh, they're here to like give money and support. No, it's like, they're just as much of a savage business person as you are. And it's like, yo, it's just hard to like build something that grows and compounds and cash flows.

• 1:12:48Speaker 02

  So I think it's like a healthy correction of expectations. I don't blame anyone because I think that was probably the right strategy in full bull market. Like, yo, everyone was throwing around money like crazy. And I think, again, I think when we were hanging out in Miami over 2020, 2020, it was like, oh, this is a crazy time.

• 1:13:05Speaker 02

  Fun time, but it was like. And it's probably the right approach, just like tell a great story, acquire capital.

• 1:13:12Anthony Pompliano?

  Just get long and loud, right? Like li- like literally, that was what people were doing. I think Mark Cuban may be the one who who said like in the nineties, like that was like our entire investment strategy was just like, get long and get loud.

• 1:13:23Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:13:24Anthony Pompliano?

  And it feels like that that describes 2021.

• 1:13:26Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:13:27Anthony Pompliano?

  Was people were just long every asset in the world. Like they're like, I just bought a fucking Beanie Baby. I got a baseball card. I got this. I got that. Everything's going up. And then it obviously, you know.

• 1:13:36Speaker 02

  Yeah. So like I think like you learn like, hey, you also got it's it's not just like entry price, but also sell price, right? Like, I think I learned that from a lot of my Wall Street, New York friends. I feel like at least I we're probably cutting the same cloth. I was very much like a founder accumulator, never hold, never sell. I think I definitely learned a personal lesson in terms of this, you know, we're also in the business world where you also should de-risk and take gains off the table. So it's like a balance. But I think to your point, I think it's great that ultimately, like what is I I think this like one thing I like to say is that a lot of things are simple, but not easy. Like make something that people will pay you more money for than that costs you to produce. It's it's a super simple statement, but it's not easy to do and easy to do at scale.

• 1:14:23Speaker 02

  And I think that like as more and more people build, I like I'm I'm very optimistic on capitalism and people's creativity and people's like ambition. Like when I look at that side of the world, I'm very optimistic. And then I look at the other news of like war and crime. I'm like, kind of i- i- it's it's like, okay, like there's the world is so big, you can kind of look at whatever you want and you can tell yourself whatever story you want. And I think it's probably like our own discipline and almost our own self brainwashing or self religion, which.

• 1:14:59Speaker 02

  Where do you want to draw your attention to? And I think, hopefully, we can inspire more people to go towards building and creating versus like, hey, like, the world's going to shit and like, I gotta like, burn everything down.

• 1:15:11Anthony Pompliano?

  Yeah, it um, it's an optimist view, which I think in technology is very persistent. Like, the technology industry is, you have to be an optimist. It's very hard to be a pessimist and survive. I do wonder how much of the pessimistic view we see outside of the technology industry is kind of a point in time. And the pendulum swings back and people are like, oh, pessimists, you know, they end up broke and depressed and like, basically screwed. And even if the ship is going down, being the optimist is still a better position to be in, like, the optimist on the sinking ship, than to be the pessimist in, you know, the great empire. Because at the end of the day, you can only control so much. And it's like, your mindset being, you know, one of the most important things.

• 1:15:56Speaker 02

  Yeah, I mean, I think it's important on the individual level and important on a societal level. Like, I think, I think humans want to be part of the winning team. So I think it's like, super important if, as you're thinking about team formation or like, nation-state construction, like, how do you create this narrative that you're a force of good, force of positivity? I think it's very dangerous when it's like, oh, your country is like founded on sin, or it's like a bad position, we gotta tear everything down. Like, like, how does that allow you to build and create value, right? Like, and I think it's like, it feels very value extractive versus like, value accretive.

• 1:16:39Speaker 02

  And at a certain point, like, if we're just like, looking at our neighbor's stuff and trying to take stuff, I don't know if that's like, that world I want to be in, right? Like, I think I'm more mindful of that, because I feel like, there are, I feel like there are definitely just segments of every country, but I think especially in America, where it's like, very, like, value extractive, like, hey, we need to like, punish people. And I think that's, like, I don't know if, like, that's the direction of the country we want to go in.

• 1:17:09Anthony Pompliano?

  Yeah, I um, I could not agree more. When you look out over the next five years, so what are you most excited about in terms of investing and building companies?

• 1:17:21Speaker 02

  I think on the, maybe like, just like, just like, just fresh, like, just the approach in terms of strategy shift. Yeah, I think last year was like go long everything.

• 1:17:31Anthony Pompliano?

  Mm hmm.

• 1:17:31Speaker 02

  I mean, I think we've, I, I know we've just shared stories of just like, just crazy deals, just flying around. Things getting like oversubscribed in like 24 hours, just fired stuff everywhere. Um, I think the mood and, and focus now is, um,

• 1:17:48Speaker 02

  be really involved, incubate, get on the ground floor with, in, in markets or, or problems that we think that we have a special understanding of, or just are, are, are big believers in. So I think AI, machine learning, and their applications into like very verticalized applications is very interesting. I think especially with Jake, with sport and media, I think there's a lot of interesting applications. And I think this better is, is one manifestation of that. How do you get the modern version of kind of these entertainment products and community products?

• 1:18:21Speaker 02

  And then I think, and then so like focusing a lot of incubations are super, super early stage, like ground floor level, co-founding, starting these things from scratch. Or just like backing like post-product market fit, post-revenue, like companies like Anduril. Or like things like Alchemy, which is like a web three infrastructure company.

• 1:18:43Speaker 02

  I think it's increasingly hard to be in no man's land, which is that like you don't have enough ownership or control or moral authority to be like really that engaged with the company. But it's also like not post-product market fit where, you know, our expertise with marketing, branding, like really can, is, they're still finding product market fit.

• 1:19:04Anthony Pompliano?

  Mm hmm.

• 1:19:05Speaker 02

  So I think the philosophy is like, hey, polarize the position, like really understand, are you in, are we in category one or category two?

• 1:19:14Anthony Pompliano?

  Mm hmm.

• 1:19:15Speaker 02

  And be very, very polite about like, hey, just, you know, anything else is not in our focus areas.

• 1:19:21Anthony Pompliano?

  It's a barbell strategy and I think why you and I get along so well is like. Almost to a T. That's how I see the world now.

• 1:19:27Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:19:27Anthony Pompliano?

  It's like, there are a very small number of companies that you will not build, but are grand slam opportunities. And you have to be aware of them and be able to get access to them. Sometimes you're aware and you can't get access. Sometimes you could get access, but nobody told you or whatever, right? And so in those opportunities, like it makes sense to essentially make angel-like investments or kind of fund investments where you're a minority, kind of passive participant, and there's some great capital compounding that can occur. But I think it's a white, you know, kind of slate in terms of the building side. And my guess is that the next cohort of really big companies, people are going to be shocked

• 1:20:12Anthony Pompliano?

  by who's building them because it's not going to be, you know, some of the same types of people. Like the patterns are about to get broken. And that is healthy. But also the best investors, they're not going to be caught flat footed. Like I already see them. They're like, oh, okay, world's shifting. Like there's certain other people, you know, how many investors are like, I'll give Mr. Beast any amount of money he wants to build companies? Like, there's actually a number of them that are very intelligent. They realize, okay, the world has shifted. Now this guy actually is, you know, is Mr. Beast the new Y Combinator? Like, it's a different model. It's a different way of doing it. It's a different value proposition. But Y Combinator has been incredibly successful at being able to put companies through and find

• 1:20:57Anthony Pompliano?

  success. It's gonna be hard pressed to find someone who's doing it at a level that he's doing it right now, right? And so it's like an interesting thing because with Y Combinator, you can invest in their funds, you can put companies through, like all this stuff. With Mr. Beast, it may not be as clear as to how do you benefit from that financially if you're just a passive investor who's got capital?

• 1:21:16Speaker 02

  Yeah, no, I mean, this is what I said. I said, I've always said that Paul Graham's the best entrepreneur in Silicon Valley over the last 20 years.

• 1:21:22Anthony Pompliano?

  Probably.

• 1:21:23Speaker 02

  I mean, I mean, just straight up, like, he literally is a-

• 1:21:27Speaker 02

  Multi billionaire, literally has stakes in some of the most iconic companies built out of Silicon Valley and has made himself an institution. Right? And like, I think the way he succeeds is like, you don't even think of him as an entrepreneur. He's just like the nice principal guru. And it's like, it's part of the substrate of Silicon Valley. Like, he succeeded so damn well that he's invisible. And people don't even think of him as like a profit collector. I just remember like, all like, he was like the only LP or besides like Sequoia for like a lot of the initial funds. I mean, the guy

• 1:22:01Speaker 02

  arguably made one of the best companies over the last 20 years. And I think people don't even consider him an entrepreneur, which is like the super interesting jujitsu move, Aikido move where it's like, he's a silent killer. Like, he won.

• 1:22:18Anthony Pompliano?

  It is pretty freaking impressive.

• 1:22:19Speaker 02

  Right? Like, people don't think of him as an entrepreneur.

• 1:22:22Anthony Pompliano?

  Yeah, but Y Combinator's gotta be worth a couple billion dollars. Easy.

• 1:22:25Speaker 02

  Yeah. I mean, if you just have a few points of Stripe, Airbnb, Drop, I mean, just name, go down that list. And he's like the main LP of all these funds. Oh, okay.

• 1:22:35Anthony Pompliano?

  Yeah. It is absolutely insane. Uh, where can we send people to find you on the internet, uh, find out more about the companies?

• 1:22:41Speaker 02

  Uh, I'm available at Jeffrey Wu, G E O F F R E Y W O, Instagram, Twitter. AntiFund, H V M N, Archive.

• 1:22:52Anthony Pompliano?

  Better.

• 1:22:52Speaker 02

  Better, B E T R. Available.

• 1:22:55Anthony Pompliano?

  Just Google.

• 1:22:56Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:22:57Anthony Pompliano?

  I always appreciate talking to you. Thank you so much. We'll do it again in the future.

• 1:23:00Speaker 02

  Yeah, it's awesome.

• 1:23:02Anthony Pompliano?

  Thanks so much for listening to today's episode. I really hope you enjoyed this one. Make sure you're subscribed on Apple, Spotify, or your favorite podcast player. And if you're looking to transition into a brand new job in the Bitcoin or crypto industry, we've got you covered. Head over to thecryptoacademy.io. My team and I have been working with the top HR teams in the industry to develop an intensive three-week training program with over 50 live events. We teach you exactly what you need to know to break into the industry, including live interview prep and resume review. Our students have been hired at over 75 of the world's best Bitcoin and crypto companies. Go to thecryptoacademy.io to learn more. Again, that's thecryptoacademy.io. If you enjoyed today's episode, make sure you share it with your friends and I'll see you all for the next episode.