Former Green Beret & Army Ranger Tells All | EYES ON GEOPOLITICS

We’re joined by Jack Murphy today former Green beret and Army Ranger. Jack’s work https://thehighside.substack.com Support the show on Patreon:⬇️ https://www.patreon.com/TheTeamHouse New merch, patches, and stickers! ⬇️ https://theteamhouse-shop.fourthwall.com Find Mick Mulroy here: Fogbow ⬇️ https://fogbow.com/ Lobo Institute ⬇️ https://www.loboinstitute.org/ Twitter ⬇️ https://x.com/mickmulroy?s=21&t=-Ze3F_Ix2vlJ18KFvORTCA LinkedIn ⬇️ https://www.linkedin.com/in/michael-patrick-mulroy-31198b52/ Bluesky ⬇️ https://bsky.app/profile/mickmulroy.bsky.social Mick’s publications ⬇️ https://www.loboinstitute.org/publications/publications-of-michael-mick-patrick-mulroy/ Find Andy Milburn here: Twitter ⬇️ https://twitter.com/i/flow/login?redirect_after_login=%2Fandymilburn8 LinkedIn ⬇️ https://www.linkedin.com/in/andrewmilburn2023 Substack ⬇️ https://amilburn.substack.com/ Andy’s book ⬇️ https://www.amazon.com/When-Tempest-Gathers-Mogadishu-Operations Bluesky ⬇️ https://bsky.app/profile/andy-milburn.bsky.social Find Jason Lyons here: LinkedIn ⬇️ https://www.linkedin.com/in/jason-lyons-666873316?utm_source=share&utm_campaign=share_via&utm_content=profile&utm_medium=ios_app Bluesky ⬇️ https://bsky.app/profile/bgsilverback73.bsky.social Become a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/the-team-house--5960890/support https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/the-team-house--5960890/support?utm_source=rss&utm_medium=rss&utm_campaign=rss.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

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• 1:40Jack Murphy?

  Now I see what Dimitri has to deal with every day doing this show.

• 1:42Speaker 04

  And this is just one of them. This is just one of them. Okay, there's two others.

• 1:46Jack Murphy?

  No wonder why you're trying to Shanghai me into doing this.

• 1:51Speaker 04

  Hey, everybody. Welcome to another episode of Eyes on Geopolitics. I'm here with Andy Milburn, Jack Murphy, myself, Dimitri Konakos. I wish we could have recorded what we were talking about beforehand, but we're not going to put that out, not yet anyway. So stay tuned. What's that, more coffee, less commies? Look at that, Jack's fucking representing.

• 2:10Jack Murphy?

  You know who gave me this was Jason Lyons.

• 2:13Speaker 04

  Okay, shout out, so it works.

• 2:14Jack Murphy?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 2:15Speaker 04

  It's all connected.

• 2:16Speaker 05

  So mine must be in the mail.

• 2:19Jack Murphy?

  Hey, you gotta.

• 2:21Speaker 05

  He must have sent it to the US address. That's the only reason I haven't received it yet.

• 2:25Jack Murphy?

  You gotta put in your FaceTime, Andy. I'm uh, I'm going to Jason's house for a Memorial Day barbecue on Saturday.

• 2:31Speaker 04

  As am I.

• 2:33Speaker 05

  Right.

• 2:33Speaker 04

  I will also be attending.

• 2:35Jack Murphy?

  Yep. Yeah, yeah, he's, he's a great guy.

• 2:38Speaker 05

  Being geographically separated from the core group, I think it explains a lot.

• 2:44Jack Murphy?

  The satellite office.

• 2:46Speaker 05

  Why I'm an outsider. I've been trying to figure this out.

• 2:48Speaker 04

  Yeah, right. I mean, mixed geography. He's in the other side of the country. He's in Montana.

• 2:53Jack Murphy?

  It's a British accent that really casts you out.

• 2:55Speaker 04

  Yeah, too I mean.

• 2:56Speaker 05

  Going to a barbecue in Montana?

• 2:59Jack Murphy?

  In Montana?

• 3:00Speaker 04

  No.

• 3:01Jack Murphy?

  Bro.

• 3:02Speaker 04

  Jersey, Jersey.

• 3:03Speaker 05

  Oh, yeah, yeah.

• 3:04Speaker 04

  Yeah, Jason's in Jersey, but Mick's in Montana.

• 3:06Speaker 05

  Yeah, Montana, man.

• 3:08Jack Murphy?

  I've met Mick out, out in Montana, out in, oh, Whitefish. Uh, it's beautiful out there.

• 3:14Speaker 04

  Andy's been to Whitefish. He was on that stump show.

• 3:16Jack Murphy?

  That's right. That's right.

• 3:18Speaker 05

  Yeah, wait. So what was that called? Cleared Heart, right?

• 3:22Speaker 04

  Cleared Heart with Andy Stumpf, yeah.

• 3:23Speaker 05

  Yeah, Jack. Jack was on that. Dave was on that. So a quick plug for our viewers. Turn off this one and go to Cleared Heart and, and Google, Google me, Jack or Dave and, and uh, watch a really good quality podcast.

• 3:38Speaker 04

  Yeah, who set those up, man? What a, what a great producer.

• 3:41Speaker 05

  It was Dee. Uh, Dee, don't worry. You're gonna get plenty of stroking during this show.

• 3:46Speaker 04

  I better.

• 3:47Speaker 05

  We'll get to that in a moment.

• 3:48Speaker 04

  That's contractions obligated in this.

• 3:50Speaker 05

  Montana was a completely new experience for me, in a good way. I mean, the, it, the only problem is it's a long way away from the ocean. That's number one, why I, I just couldn't be there. And, and number two, it's got, I don't know whether you felt this way, Jack, but there's a feeling about it as though something really bad's about to happen, you know, like.

• 4:12Speaker 04

  Why?

• 4:14Speaker 05

  I don't know.

• 4:15Jack Murphy?

  It's just the wide, the wide open spaces and like desolation of it. And I mean, for me, I think it was like coming from New York City. I live in, in Brooklyn. And whenever I make like, when I go to a place like Montana or Iceland, like, just like the loneliness of it, like, really hits hard. And then you experience it again when you come back home, like, holy shit, there's so many people here. This is crazy.

• 4:37Speaker 05

  Yeah, see, I could not live in New York. I just couldn't live with that many people around me. But I think Montana, I think it was, yeah, partly that and partly, you know, the people are kind of, I mean, they're very nice, but kind of creepy. There's a lot of militia looking people.

• 4:51Jack Murphy?

  A lot of ZZ Top beards.

• 4:53Speaker 05

  Yes, just something really bad is going to happen, but.

• 5:00Speaker 04

  I can see why, like, most of them are preppers and stuff and survivalist kind of.

• 5:04Jack Murphy?

  Dude, there were towns I drove through over there that looked like something right out of the set of a Wild West movie. It's wild.

• 5:12Speaker 04

  You know what? I get that kind of same feeling of anxious, like anxiety when I go to, I'm sorry, Andy, but when I go to fucking Tampa. I get that. Well, not Tampa proper, like in the city, but when like you're out there and you go like my family in Tarpin Springs and stuff. And you're driving and it's just like flat and fucking highway and Wawa Starbucks. Ten miles, Wawa Starbucks.

• 5:38Jack Murphy?

  Housing communities that they all have cute names like Hidden Grove.

• 5:44Speaker 05

  Yeah, you know, there is some truth in that and I, I don't attribute these comments purely to the fact that I knock Brooklyn with, you know, every time that.

• 5:53Speaker 04

  Every episode. That's also contractually obligated.

• 5:57Speaker 05

  There is something concerning about Florida too. And then again, and it's partly the flatness and.

• 6:03Speaker 04

  The flatness gets me.

• 6:04Speaker 05

  And Florida man, who is a truly a species all by himself.

• 6:11Speaker 04

  There should be like a David Attenborough fucking documentary about the Florida man.

• 6:16Jack Murphy?

  I've heard people tell me that like central Florida, like inland and the central part of the state that it like really hasn't changed since the Civil War.

• 6:25Speaker 05

  Yeah, I can, I can believe that. I mean, I've driven from where we are up to Tallahassee and it's beautiful countryside, but yes, it is. It is really, really rural. It's like nothing I had seen before.

• 6:39Speaker 04

  I had a wedding in Florida last year in my in Marathon, Florida and and like if you're a fisherman or you know, you love the water and stuff. I I I understand why that's probably awesome for you, but I drove from Miami to Marathon and it's just one road. And once you get into these little towns where it's Marathon or whatever that has like you go along, it's the same thing. It's fucking, it's trailer parks, Wawa Starbucks, trailer park, Wawa Starbucks.

• 7:10Speaker 05

  There aren't that many trailer parks in Florida.

• 7:13Speaker 04

  Well, in Marathon, in Marathon there were.

• 7:15Speaker 05

  Yeah, I mean, it's not like North Carolina. What's the joke about, you know, what's uh, what's the difference? What's the similarity between a hurricane and a divorce in North Carolina? Someone's gonna lose their trailer home.

• 7:31Speaker 05

  I mean, doesn't, doesn't get it, but I, you know, I Florida's Florida feels like home right now. I mean, really, I mean, of course, I'm in Saudi Arabia. So.

• 7:41Speaker 04

  Yeah, I mean, so now you're itching to get back to Florida. I'm sure.

• 7:44Jack Murphy?

  Quite a, quite a few people that are kind of like you, Andy, that you, you know, you've kind of served in the military and probably towards the tail end of your career, spent time down in Tampa at McDill and so on, and like really just took to it and settled down in there. Um, there are quite a few service members who find that that station to be kind of like the best kept secret in the army, I guess, or the Marines in your case.

• 8:10Speaker 05

  Yeah. Hey, did you go to Soft Wing?

• 8:13Jack Murphy?

  No, I didn't. I was actually gonna go, but just decided I have other things going on, um, other events and stuff. So I'm just prioritizing thing. I'll probably go next year.

• 8:24Speaker 05

  Yeah. Yeah. I, you know, I I haven't been in a, in a few years. Actually, you stayed at my place a couple of years ago.

• 8:30Jack Murphy?

  I sure did. I was smoking cigars in your hot tub while you were gone.

• 8:33Speaker 05

  Yeah, I was, I was having all, all kinds of things floating in my hot tub.

• 8:39Speaker 05

  After that, but yeah, on, you know, on soft week, I'm ambivalent about it. I, you know, I loved seeing the guys that I see. But this, this also that kind of distasteful part of it. And maybe I'm just being too picky and all these kind of fat loud contractors walking around. Talking about the old times and, you know, the hail fellow well met doing selfies for LinkedIn. And it just reminds me that, I don't know what it reminds me, but it, it does. You know, there's a camaraderie aspect of being in the military, but then there's kind of the, there's kind of the blow hard going on and on. And telling story after story after story aspect of veterans that just bores me.

• 9:23Jack Murphy?

  Yeah.

• 9:24Speaker 05

  Soundless, you know?

• 9:25Jack Murphy?

  Is shot show similar? Shot show is like soft week on steroids. It, it's like 10 times more insane. Um, but you're, you're right. You know, like whether shot show or soft week, I think they're both great events in the sense that like. You will see dudes you served with that you haven't seen in like 17 years. And it's like, oh shit. And that, that's really awesome to like link up with all those people again. But there is an aspect of like what you're talking about that like. I won't say any names, man, but there's like one guy there and all he did was tell stories about Somalia. Every single person he talked to, every time he got up to say something or Somalia is like, dude, come on, bro. Like you gotta let it go at some point like.

• 10:06Speaker 05

  And they, and they find a way to weave it into every single conversation.

• 10:09Jack Murphy?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 10:10Speaker 05

  You know, either a specific, the one time that they did a, you know, combat deployment or just the fact that they were in the military. And it's just.

• 10:20Jack Murphy?

  It's like, it's especially at an event like that. It's like, bro, we, we were all over there. Like it's not.

• 10:24Speaker 05

  Exactly.

• 10:25Jack Murphy?

  Who cares?

• 10:26Speaker 05

  I know. It's like telling, yeah, I couldn't agree more. It's telling war stories over and over. And you know, on that note, speaking of all stories, and by the way, I do want to say for the benefit of any of our audience who is still left watching this, that Dee had a terrific show lined up. Incredible. And we sabotaged it at the last minute. Yeah. We don't often get a chance to have the great Jack Murphy on the show. In fact, it's about once every three months, seriously. Not true, not true. He comes on. It's about once every three months. When you guys are together, it's about one in every three months. And I can track it back, and there was one time that I missed in July of 2023,

• 11:11Speaker 05

  and I couldn't sleep for a week.

• 11:14Speaker 05

  And it was, and I think because I was not on it and Jack was, we had like, you know, record viewing figures, actually no, second highest record viewing figures, the highest viewing figures we ever had for Eyes On, and I think it's like almost 60,000, was when we had, do you remember that? We did the P J. Yeah, yeah, yeah, with Mick and Mark. This question with Mick and. Mark P. And Mark P.

• 11:40Jack Murphy?

  Hey, guys, it's Jack. I just want to talk to you for a moment about how you can support the show, if you've been watching it, enjoying it, but you'd like to get a little bit more involved and help us continue to do this. You can check out our Patreon. It is patreon.com/the teamhouse. And for $5 a month, you can get access to all of these episodes of The Team House ad-free. The same goes with our affiliated podcast Eyes On with Andy Milburn, Jason Lyons, Mick Mulroy. That one, you will also get all of those episodes ad-free. And you support the channel and the show, and we really appreciate it. The Patreon members are literally what has helped this company, this small business survive, especially

• 12:24Jack Murphy?

  during our early years. And you are what continues to help this thing going, even as we navigate the turbulent world of YouTube advertising. So we really appreciate all of you guys. There's going to be a link down in the description to that Patreon page, and there is also going to be a link to our new merch shop. So if you guys want to go and get some Team House merchandise, we got stickers, and we also have patches. And I should mention, if you sign up for Patreon at $10 a month, we will mail you this patch as well. So we really appreciate that. Um, but they're also for sale on the merch shop. And additionally, they got T-shirts up there, water bottles, a tote bag, coffee mugs,

• 13:08Jack Murphy?

  all that good stuff. Um, so please go and check them out and support the show. Uh, we really appreciate it, guys. Thank you.

• 13:15Speaker 04

  Yeah, that was big.

• 13:17Speaker 05

  But I, you know, with Jack brings that star quality. So back to the topic.

• 13:22Speaker 04

  We can touch our tips.

• 13:23Speaker 05

  I have, I have two, I have two of the, the, the creators and the, and the lead men of the team house, actually one of them behind the scenes and Jack. And I, and I really want to hear some stories from the team house, having been a victim of many of your stories.

• 13:42Speaker 04

  We almost destroyed Andy's career.

• 13:45Speaker 05

  Destroyed my career, certainly my confidence, lost me friends and it had a catastrophic effect on my life, but I would.

• 13:52Speaker 04

  Hey, stop. Did you really? Come on.

• 13:55Speaker 05

  Come on. To you, yeah.

• 13:58Speaker 04

  That's the reverse. That's the in, the inverse of a team house.

• 14:02Speaker 05

  Remember, yeah, the, and I don't want to even mention the episode because people are going to go back to it and then it's all going to start again. But yes, the fact that when you were forcing, and I do want to just say again publicly that I had just flown from.

• 14:17Speaker 04

  Yeah, you got, you got fucked on that one. I agree with you. Yeah, we didn't get you food, pizza, nothing. Yeah.

• 14:23Speaker 05

  Didn't get me. No, it's a fucking food desert there, by the way.

• 14:28Speaker 04

  Nah, the first time when, when Andy, the second show, when Andy takes off his shirt and flexes for everybody.

• 14:35Jack Murphy?

  No, no, that was, that was in our old studio.

• 14:37Speaker 04

  That was in our old studio, but that was the second time he's ever been on and he had flown in from fucking somewhere.

• 14:42Jack Murphy?

  And I got pizza?

• 14:43Speaker 04

  No, we didn't get pizza and you guys got shitfaced. But the other, the subsequent times at the new studio, we've got, we've made sure there's pizza there.

• 14:51Jack Murphy?

  We did, yeah.

• 14:52Speaker 05

  I think that was a good idea because you poured whiskey down my throat and, uh, but, but actually, and I would never go back and look at that one episode and I, and I want to get off the topic of me on the team house. But you know, do you remember what I was talking about on that episode? I was talking about. Corruption, you know, first of all, I was, I was risking my life for Ukraine, but I was saying, hey, you know, Ukraine has some problems to address. One is corruption and the other was the fact that neither side was hands clean when it came to atrocities and, and mistreating prisoners and things like this. So, you know, that, that was my point and it became, and it skyrocketed into this huge.

• 15:33Speaker 04

  Yeah. Also, the fact is like you weren't seeing like all the Ukrainians are taking scalps. It's like they were videoing POWs, right? And that is a war crime and like.

• 15:42Speaker 05

  Yeah. And, uh, but, but you know, it, it just became.

• 15:46Jack Murphy?

  You know, I, I've thought about it a little bit and I think that a lot of that reaction comes from a lot of the war hysteria that was present at the time. Um, and I, I think that after October seven, there's also a lot of war hysteria. Um, after nine 11, there was a lot of war hysteria. Um, but back to, uh, Ukraine, you know, when I, when I read that story about sabotage cells in Russia, like the amount of like jeers and pushback and anger and people calling me names and stuff. A lot of that is just because there's so much war hysteria and propaganda at the time that I was telling them something they didn't really want to hear, I guess. Um, but yeah, I, I will say I

• 16:28Jack Murphy?

  have a copy of, uh, Tim Weiner's new book around here that confirms the thesis of the story. Um, that book will be out this summer, so people can read it then. It's, it's pretty good.

• 16:39Speaker 04

  Also, cut to, cut to like 12 months or more later, when the New York Times comes out with a similar story and they fucking do a victory lap, like they just broke the fucking story. Shout out to those rats. If we're just, if we're just talking here and, and doing like, you know, improvising, making jazz, I'll, I'll call it out. Like Jack had that shit like in July of 22, four or five months after the invasion, uh, finally printed it out after Rolling Stone fucked them and his, fucked them over, um, printed it out on New Year, on Christmas Eve 22. So Rolling Stone had, I'm gonna say it, Jack. Rolling Stone had Jack go through like three or four months of editing, three or four months of fact checking.

• 17:22Speaker 04

  You know, so that's that story had been fucking picked and prodded.

• 17:26Speaker 05

  They were they were they were worried that they would release it, right? And then.

• 17:31Speaker 04

  So what happened was, I'll tell Jack, you can correct me if I'm wrong. So three or four months of picking and prodding, editing, fat checking, do whatever they gotta do. Um, they go to the CIA for um, comment, right? And usually like Jackie told me, it's like one or two days max you give them to give you a comment. Um, they stall, they stalled it and. A de- so some high up in the CIA, I don't know if I should I say his name or not? I don't give a shit.

• 17:58Jack Murphy?

  The deputy director.

• 17:59Speaker 04

  Yeah, okay, calls up Jack's editor on the one hour where Jack isn't available to be on that fucking conference call. And gives him off the record quotes and tries to make him change the story. Then the editor goes to Jack's like, oh yeah, maybe we should change this, that, the other thing. Because of what this guy just told me off the.

• 18:16Jack Murphy?

  And then and then they instead of publishing the agency's denial when and putting the story out as we had planned. They sat on it for like a week and a half and then, oh, what shows up in New York Times?

• 18:29Speaker 04

  Yeah, about like, uh, what's the guy's name's daughter?

• 18:32Jack Murphy?

  Uh, Dugina.

• 18:33Speaker 04

  Yeah, Dugan's daughter that she got, she got killed. And how, oh, this was a Ukrainian rogue element that had nothing to do with the United States. This, that, the other thing, like literally like a week later.

• 18:45Speaker 05

  Oh, right. Okay, yeah, the um, the Russian, uh, yeah, the.

• 18:49Jack Murphy?

  Yeah, that that was deliberately to sabotage the story that I was writing on. Ha ha sabotage. Ha, get it?

• 18:55Speaker 04

  Cause think about it, Jack, if it came out in Rolling Stone, like that's a fucking huge story like that's going everywhere because Rolling Stone's. Whatever, an established media outlet.

• 19:05Speaker 05

  I get the the outlet that brought McChrystal down.

• 19:07Speaker 04

  Right, right.

• 19:08Jack Murphy?

  I mean, there's a lot of stuff going on there. Um, I'll just say that. I mean, it all kind of came out in the wash, I think, and.

• 19:16Speaker 05

  You released, I mean, you wrote about it and released it on Substack, right? And it did.

• 19:20Speaker 04

  No, on his own.

• 19:21Jack Murphy?

  I put it on my own blog, um, and I ran it and I felt really good, you know, like. Times where I published something and I felt really good about it. I published that thing Christmas Eve. And then I drove up to my parents' house afterwards and I had a smile on my face the entire trip.

• 19:38Speaker 04

  It's funny, Jack, you I remember you texted me, he's like, yeah, it's out. I'm like, what? Where'd you he's just fucking decided on Christmas Eve to just throw it out there. Which I don't blame you. It should have gone out there fucking months before that.

• 19:50Jack Murphy?

  And some people thought it was part of some master plan like you're like you're gaming it because like you think no one's at work on Christmas. I'm like, no, dude. It's just like I'm I'm not waiting any longer and here it is. Um, but I mean, it the the whole like backstory to all of that was just kind of like a a learning experience. And and it does leave you kind of like bitter because you realize that like this whole like journalism thing like from a national security perspective is a set for sure. Um, if you think there's like these journalists out there at the New York Times or the Washington Post or these big outlets that are like looking out for you. And like they're meeting with secret sources and underground parking garages and like diligently trying to get to the truth.

• 20:34Jack Murphy?

  That ain't happening. Like, that's not what they do. Um, these these editors just want to get official leaks from the deputy commander of this unit, the deputy director of that agency. And then publish it because it's the safest thing for them to do. It guarantees them that there's not going to be government pushback. They're going to have career progression. They're going to continue moving up the rungs. They get to pay their mortgage. They get to go home and watch Netflix. Everyone's happy. Um, except for the American public that has basically completely lost faith in the press at this point. And I think a lot of it is because of this sort of acting as stenographers for, you know, the highest levels of the US government.

• 21:15Speaker 05

  Yeah, that's I mean, that's a really, that's a really good point. That was an excellent article, by the way, and I was glad to see it did well when you when you did release it.

• 21:23Jack Murphy?

  Yeah, thank you.

• 21:24Speaker 05

  And I, yeah, I I do understand what you're saying about war hysteria. And and that certainly certainly was gripping the nation at the time and and continues to do so. And and there is also in in kind of that.

• 21:44Speaker 05

  The land of the, the online media, uh, just this undercurrent of, of quickly a volatile emotion, right? And, and even in the vet world, you know, you look at the, the Vetpro thing and the back and forth on who, you know, it just seems like one icon after another is falling, is crumbling in front of us and, and they each have supporters and detractors and it's, it's like proxy warfare online, right?

• 22:13Jack Murphy?

  It's the Vetpro cinematic universe, man.

• 22:15Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 22:16Jack Murphy?

  Because we don't, we don't have a war to fight. So now we fight each other.

• 22:19Speaker 05

  Yeah, I know. It's like, you know, Tim Kennedy or, or Jocko, you know, they all, I mean, name, if you, you can name like half a dozen others, right? Who have, have risen to great fame and then Sean Ryan. Yeah. Former comrades coming out of the woodwork. And I mean, it started with Dave, he's that dude who does all the fitness stuff. You can't kill me. Goggins. Yeah. I mean, all of them. And it's, it's just, it's bizarre. It really, really is. And it becomes such a, well, you guys have been involved. We're part of the Vet and Bro industrial complex for sure.

• 22:58Jack Murphy?

  We're there, we're there. Um, although I, I keep it at arms length nowadays. I'm happy to let, uh, Nate and Jay and who are some of the other big ones out there?

• 23:07Speaker 05

  Nate Valhalla VFT. He does a lot of that.

• 23:09Jack Murphy?

  Jay, Jay Dorley. I kind of let those guys, I'll let those guys take that lane more than happy to let them deal with that.

• 23:18Speaker 05

  But you know, they get insane amount, they get an insane amount of viewers, viewers just doing.

• 23:24Jack Murphy?

  People love drama.

• 23:25Speaker 05

  Yeah, it's low hanging fruit.

• 23:27Jack Murphy?

  But I, I mean, I'll tell you like, and this is interesting. I, well, maybe your mileage may vary, but I've been out of the military for like 15 years now. So like the way people like, when I see people like wanting to go back in time and like relitigate the military, the war, their career, whatever. Like to me, it's like going back in time to like argue about Little League games that I played when I was seven years old. It's like, who fucking cares at this point? Like, so you see, yeah, the, the Vetpro cinematic universe and all of these little cliques and people fighting back and forth. And it's like, I don't give a shit, man. Like I'm going to go to a bar in Brooklyn with my girlfriend and have a drink now because like I'm a normal, well-adjusted man, you know, like, like have fun with that.

• 24:11Speaker 04

  Yeah, do you think you were more into it like while you were doing soft rep? And you were like, and you were closer to it?

• 24:18Jack Murphy?

  Yeah, I didn't have as much distance from it. So I was still like emotionally, I think wrapped up in all of it. And now, I mean, I it's not that I don't like love the troops and I don't support special operations. I do. It's just I'm not like

• 24:31Speaker 05

  Gotta say that he's gonna

• 24:32Jack Murphy?

  I'm not, I'm not like personally invested in it the way I was 15 years ago, I guess is what I would say.

• 24:39Speaker 05

  Life moves on and no, life moves on. I I feel exactly the same way. And and I think probably when I got out in 2019, I felt a little bit differently. The memories are very frank. But now I find myself. You know, around, I I tend to work around people who were in the military. And I just don't even have an interest in talking about things. Not that I, you know, I'm not pretending that I'm on that in the realm of the vet pro. People, but I I don't find an interest in talking about. Experiences from that long ago, they just seem almost irrelevant and they're locked into the past. I'd rather talk about other things and what is happening now.

• 25:21Speaker 05

  And you know, on that note, and before before Jack slips out of our lives for another or my life for another few months. I, yeah, I've got, I've got you guys here and I wanna, I do wanna talk about the team house. We started on that. And A because I think it's an awesome show and that's not me just plugging it. I. I can, I can pick up and watch any of your interviews regardless of who you're interviewing and you've you've interviewed some. Some very bizarre people. Uh, just because of the kind of the style and the fact that the way you guys interview them. But I've got to ask you. So best and worst experiences on the team house. So I mean, wait, let's start with the worst. What was some of the most painful experiences?

• 26:06Jack Murphy?

  Uh, you know, the, the most weird or painful experiences are the ones that like, nobody has ever seen. Because like something went awry. Um, there, and there are quite a few actually. Uh, not it, but I mean, I'm not trying to be melodramatic like there's, I mean, there's the time like I took the train back to New York City. Um, to do this interview and this guy canceled on us like as I was like walking into our office. I'm like,

• 26:32Speaker 04

  It was like an hour out, not an hour and a half out.

• 26:34Jack Murphy?

  You, you get stuff, you get stuff like that. I mean, just this week, we had a fairly well-known former CIA officer. I had her scheduled for week, it months, really.

• 26:46Speaker 04

  It must have been six weeks or I was.

• 26:48Jack Murphy?

  Yeah, yeah. And I, I hit her up yesterday because we were supposed to interview her today. And I was like, Hey, just to remind you, we have this interview at this time, blah, blah, blah. And she was like, Oh, sorry. You know, I, I, I schedule. I, I, I scheduled the wrong date and now I have another commitment for that time. I can't do the podcast, uh, now I'm really sorry. Uh, you know, let's work out another time. And I was like, Okay. Hey, shoot me some dates and, um, and we'll pick one. And she never got back to me. It's just like, you get these people sometimes who like,

• 27:22Jack Murphy?

  they want to use you. Uh, yeah, like, like, like, that's it. There's no relationship there. They don't give a shit about you at all. They don't really care about the content of the show. It's like they want to promote themselves. And if they think that you can't do that adequately for them, then they don't give a shit. Um, another, uh, this is kind of a funny story. Again, another interview that never happened, but we're like,

• 27:48Jack Murphy?

  we're, we're closing in on, I think like what 400 something, how many episodes do we have?

• 27:52Speaker 04

  Right. 348, 348.

• 27:54Jack Murphy?

  348.

• 27:55Speaker 04

  Wow.

• 27:56Jack Murphy?

  So as you can imagine, I've spoken to like a lot of different people, a lot of different types of people, different personalities. Um, and, and most of them I really like. Um, there's one guy I, I was, uh, trying to, I was introduced to and told I should schedule. A pretty well-known, uh, national security journalist. Um, sounds like a great dude, uh, great, great. You know, guest guy has a lot of experience in the Middle East. Um, so we're emailing back and forth. He keeps losing the address to the office.

• 28:28Speaker 04

  Oh, yeah, this guy.

• 28:29Jack Murphy?

  Phone number. He keep like, I'm going back and forth and back and forth with him like, it's like, I'm talking to like emailing Mr. Magoo here. Um, finally, he, he wants to talk to me on the phone. And so the first time we get on the phone, he's asking me about like, how to get to the office. And I'm pretty sure this guy is from the Upper West Side. He's asking me how to get to the office and he starts asking me like, is it dangerous there, Jack? I'm like, dangerous? In, in fucking Brooklyn? Like, like, what are you, uh, and I like, we're going back and forth. And I'm like, hey, bro, didn't you like work from Baghdad for like seven years or some shit like this? And he's like, oh, well, this is different. This is different. Oh, I'm taking my spouse with me.

• 29:14Jack Murphy?

  That goes on. Then he, he wants to get back on the, on the phone with me again, like a week later. I'm like, okay. We get on the phone and he's got more questions for me. And he says, Jack, in Brooklyn, do they have food there?

• 29:31Jack Murphy?

  He knows Brooklyn. I, bro, it's the largest borough in New York City and you're asking me if they have fucking food there. Is this like, are we serious right now? This is a grown ass man asking me this question. Uh, and then it gets even weirder. He starts like going in like saying, he's like, so from your office, um, about how far a walk is it to the Hasidic community? And I'm thinking about it for a minute. I'm like, Go there all the time. I mean, we're not that far away.

• 30:02Speaker 04

  No, it's not that far.

• 30:03Jack Murphy?

  And I, I, I tell him, I'm like, I think that's probably about a 30 minute walk if you were to walk there. And he's like, okay, okay, okay. It's like, I, I would really like to go and see them. I tried it when I was a young man in Israel, but it just didn't take. And I'd really like to go and see them. I'm like, what's going on here? Like, where are we? What is going on? Like, bro, you can hop on the train and go see the Hasidic community anytime. Anytime you want. Yeah. Go, go talk to them. You know, they'll talk to you. Uh, you know, we, we, I've rented places from them. It's not a problem.

• 30:40Jack Murphy?

  I was just, that was the weirdest experience I've had with like trying to book somebody. And then of course he canceled on us after all that. Like got scared of this whole thing. Got scared of Hipsterville. Yeah. We're literally, we literally work in. My editor needs me to work on a piece. No one else can do it. I gotta go. I gotta go right now.

• 31:01Speaker 05

  It's like. Instead of just saying, hey, I can't do it. It's bizarre, isn't it? Some people just cannot, they cannot say no.

• 31:09Jack Murphy?

  Yeah. So I mean, for, for, for every one of those experiences though, I have to say there are another 10 to 15 where you contact somebody and they're like, Jack, really? Like you want me to be on this show? Like you've had all these amazing people on there. And they're so stoked to do it. Yeah. So excited to do it. And, and, and so you always have to keep in mind those like funny or bad experiences versus the good ones. And it's always many more good ones. You know, they're just incredible people I've gotten to meet.

• 31:40Speaker 05

  Yeah. Have you, I mean, have you had any, any standouts? Any, were there any kind of jaw dropping moments where you're just like, someone said something and you didn't know how to follow up? Of course you're very.

• 31:50Jack Murphy?

  Well, okay. Yeah. A couple. Uh, one was when Greg Smith came on the show and was dropping bombs about Eric Prince. I was like, holy shit. Like this guy spilling the tea. Yeah. Uh, another one was we had Eric Demming on the show. Yeah, that was crazy. He accused Jaco Willink of murdering someone on target. Murdering a source. Yeah. Murdering a source. Yeah. The first brown guy he saw with an AK, he just shot him. And I, I had no idea he was going to say that. Um, and no, I had no idea. I knew we were going to talk about some like spicy.

• 32:23Speaker 05

  Really well.

• 32:24Jack Murphy?

  Navy SEAL stuff. I did not know we were going there. I was like, holy shit.

• 32:30Speaker 05

  Was there any fallout? Did you hear any fallout from that?

• 32:33Speaker 04

  No. Did they ever send him a cease and desist or anything like that?

• 32:36Jack Murphy?

  I haven't spoken to Eric in a few months, but the last time I spoke with him, no, nothing.

• 32:42Speaker 05

  Yeah, because that made a men- that had a mention on Eric Denning, what he said there on the on the show had a mention on. What was the one that you just mentioned, the Valhalla?

• 32:54Jack Murphy?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 32:55Speaker 04

  No, he was on, he was on Jay Dorlias', Chronicles of a Green Beret.

• 33:00Jack Murphy?

  I think, I think Nate probably talked about it, too.

• 33:02Speaker 05

  Nate talked about it.

• 33:03Speaker 04

  No, everyone's talked about it, yeah.

• 33:07Speaker 05

  I like, yeah, so I've watched some of the ones, I like the fact that you you bring in eclectic characters from overseas and you've gone through. So for instance, you've gone through the whole pantheon of of SAS dudes and the Brits, the Brits have, you know, the SAS has, like, they they are media stars, right? Once they get out more so than than anyone you can name in Delta. I mean, you're talking about guys like Phil Campion.

• 33:35Jack Murphy?

  Phil, I know Phil.

• 33:37Speaker 05

  Yeah, or Peter McElhies. By the way, you brought on, like, Peter McElhies was kind of one of the, he's not so well known. But his story was astonishing. I mean, he was involved, he was the older generation of SAS. He was involved in that mercenary

• 33:58Speaker 05

  thing in Angola, the mercenary trials.

• 34:01Jack Murphy?

  Yup.

• 34:01Speaker 05

  And who was the guy? Colonel Callan, who was a former British, yeah, psychopath, former British para, had been discharged from the paras and was running a mercenary unit in in Angola on behalf of, gosh, I can't remember his name. Joshua, am I getting, was he fighting against you, Nita? They were fighting.

• 34:25Jack Murphy?

  I'm pretty sure they were with the MPLA fighting against.

• 34:30Jack Murphy?

  No, no, no, they must have been you need you need a fighting against the MP LA who are the communists.

• 34:35Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 34:36Jack Murphy?

  There's a third, there's a third group called Fenla, which broke up right around that same time. Um, where, um, uh, Bacon, uh, George Bacon, a former Mac vs. God guy was a merc with that organization. And he got killed out there, um, in an ambush. Um, and then but Macalise pulls out at kind of like the last minute. He got out of there and Callan ended up meeting his fate, uh, I think a few weeks later.

• 35:04Speaker 05

  He, well, Callan went to trial and was executed, right? Like three of them were, were executed. So if you look back at the news rails, Callan's in, in the courtroom. He's been charged with multiple war crimes and he was, he was clearly a war criminal. And Macalise was one of the first ones to kind of not testify against him, but talk to the media about shit that he was doing.

• 35:25Jack Murphy?

  Yeah. I mean, he's And to Callan, just to be clear for people, he's the guy that like brought in a bunch of British volunteers. They were not veterans or soldiers. One of them was a street sweeper in London. Some of them were teenagers and when they got there, they refused to fight. And Callan lined them up and just machine gunned them.

• 35:43Speaker 04

  Holy fuck.

• 35:45Jack Murphy?

  Yeah.

• 35:45Speaker 05

  Yeah. And he bayoneted one guy, a Brit, like, you know, in the back, pinned him on the ground. I mean, he was a, he was just a complete psychopath. And but there was a small cadre of guys with experience, mostly former Paris. And then they had Macalise, who was a SAS guy who had fallen on some hard times at the time. And then ended up in Angola. So I was amazed to see him on your show. Do you remember how you even heard of him?

• 36:10Jack Murphy?

  Yeah, I do. Um, well, I read his book and I reached

• 36:16Speaker 05

  No Mean Soldier was, was his book, right? Yeah.

• 36:19Jack Murphy?

  And I'm trying to think about how I got in touch with him. It, it was, it might've been through another Rhodesian, uh, military veteran. Um, and I got Peter on and, uh, yeah, that was, that was an incredible interview and, and, uh, you know, Peter has passed away. Um, so yeah, we're, we're really glad to have that interview, um, on our channel, um, for posterity and for history's sake.

• 36:45Speaker 04

  He also had a crazy story about, uh, gearing up and spinning up to go after Pablo Escobar.

• 36:50Jack Murphy?

  Yeah, in Colombia.

• 36:51Speaker 04

  Yeah. Which is wild.

• 36:54Speaker 05

  Yeah, the guy, uh, and, and you know, the book, which I recommend to anyone is called No Mean Soldier.

• 37:00Jack Murphy?

  It's really good.

• 37:01Speaker 05

  And it is very good. And there are, you know, he, as I said, he fell on hard times. He went through two years of heavy drinking and his marriage was falling apart. And I think he went to jail, actually. And, and again, almost went to jail in the aftermath.

• 37:19Jack Murphy?

  I, I think he may have been kicked out of the SAS two or three times due to, uh, punch ups at the bar.

• 37:25Speaker 05

  Yeah. But, uh, you know, I think that was in an era where that, where you could return, right? I mean, you, you, his stories, like Phil Campion was another great, another guest of yours. The guy is a natural raconteur.

• 37:38Jack Murphy?

  Yes.

• 37:39Speaker 05

  He can tell a dick, as the Brits say. And it's just hilarious. And even if you've heard his stories before, they're still really funny. But the guy, you know, the, the guy was like in and out of the glass houses, the Brits call it. Who, all his time in the conventional military. Now, in the U S, there's no way you'd get a shot at Delta if you had a record like that, right? But, I mean, you just wouldn't. And maybe it's that way now in the British Army, but.

• 38:08Jack Murphy?

  The thing, the thing I noticed with the SAS guys, at least the, the NCOs, they more often than not have really blue collar backgrounds. Like really like working class dudes that grew up rough.

• 38:20Speaker 05

  Yeah. Yeah. Uh, I was watching an interview, Phil Campion interviewed a guy named Billy Billingham, who was former SARM agent.

• 38:30Jack Murphy?

  Oh, yeah, yeah.

• 38:32Speaker 05

  And I don't know if you've had him on the team house, but he was in, he, he's in that British show essay. There's some Who Dares Wins or something where people go through all these strange.

• 38:43Jack Murphy?

  We, we had his buddy Mick Hawk on the show, who they, they got captured when they were in like Serbia.

• 38:47Speaker 05

  Mick Hawk? Yeah. Yeah, there's another one. So these guys go from kind of podcast to podcast and they refine and polish. They're just very good at telling their stories. And they have remarkable stories.

• 38:59Jack Murphy?

  Well, I'll tell you a little bit of, uh, behind the scenes is like, there are like PR people who handle like all the SAS guys. And, um, I, I'm in touch with one of them. And honestly, the guy's been awesome. He's like, most of the SAS guys you see on the team house are because that guy put me in touch with them and facilitated that, which I'm very grateful to.

• 39:21Jack Murphy?

  We just had an Australian SAS guy on the show that Dimitri found.

• 39:25Speaker 04

  Coming out Friday.

• 39:27Jack Murphy?

  Yeah.

• 39:28Speaker 05

  Good.

• 39:29Speaker 04

  First one ever. We haven't had one, so.

• 39:33Speaker 05

  Yeah, I I mean, I like the fact too, though, that you bring you interview guys. Who are not so well known, but still have remarkable stories. You know, I mean, guys like, I mean, Mark. Okay, so Mark's a big name now, right? Mark Polly.

• 39:51Jack Murphy?

  Yep.

• 39:52Speaker 05

  Malopoulos. But when you interviewed him, he wasn't anyway. He was going through all that stuff with Havana Syndrome after being in Moscow. And and that story was not well known outside the agency. And but I thought that but A, he's just a he's a really, he's a great recon tour. He's a. He's a really, despite the fact, despite his Greek background, he's actually, you know, he's a super talented and very funny guy. Uh, but. But that's.

• 40:24Jack Murphy?

  I'll tease out a few here. Um. We got a dev group guy scheduled. Um, we got a. Uh, a unit member scheduled.

• 40:37Speaker 04

  Yeah, don't say, yeah.

• 40:38Jack Murphy?

  I don't know if I'm allowed to say the D word. Uh, we got a guy who's an expert in ubiquitous technical surveillance coming on. Uh, I got an MI6 guy scheduled, um, which.

• 40:49Speaker 04

  First one ever.

• 40:50Jack Murphy?

  Yeah, we're gonna have to like blur out his face and all that stuff.

• 40:54Speaker 05

  Have you have you been? Have you seen him before? I mean, have you seen him? Online or in an episode of anything before?

• 41:01Jack Murphy?

  I believe he's written a few, um. Maybe he's writing spy novels and that's sort of why he's out in the public. Um, I'll have to look that up, though. I actually don't know a lot about him or his career right now. Um, I got a couple retired special forces generals scheduled for this summer that I'm really excited about. One of them I know quite well. Uh, and one of them I don't know really at all, except by reputation, and he's kind of a legend.

• 41:30Jack Murphy?

  I'd rather not give away the the the names at this juncture, um, but I it's one of those things. If you know, you know, I'll tell you later, Andy. Um, Tim Weiner, I mentioned, we have him coming on in July to talk about his new book. Um, for some time, it's probably going to be in in August, Seth Harp, talking about his book about all the shenanigans down at Fort Bragg. Um, and then we got a couple, we got a 160th guy this summer. We got a FBI, CIA, counterintelligence dude this summer. Um, and we got, uh, I think, yeah, early June,

• 42:13Jack Murphy?

  I got, do you know this guy, Andy?

• 42:20Speaker 05

  No, I don't.

• 42:22Jack Murphy?

  Yeah, he's coming up in a couple of weeks. He is a US Marine with two decades of experience. He held positions at the Defense Intelligence Agency, National Security Agency, Marine Forces, Special Operations Command, and the Marine.

• 42:34Speaker 05

  Oh, hold it. It's Blade, Blade Hackett.

• 42:37Jack Murphy?

  Jonathan Hackett? Yeah. So you know this guy?

• 42:39Speaker 05

  Yeah. I, yeah, yeah. I mean, he's, he's very well known.

• 42:45Jack Murphy?

  Um, yeah, I contacted him and, uh, and I got his book, obviously. I'm going to give this a read before we do the show. So he's coming up.

• 42:58Speaker 05

  Yeah, you made, sorry, go ahead, Dee.

• 43:01Speaker 04

  No, I just, I'm saying like, why I like the team house, not because I work at it, work it, but that's one of the reasons. But we have people on that like most Vet Bro pods don't have on, you know? And, uh, that's why we're the fucking best.

• 43:16Speaker 05

  I think the other thing that's cool is that it's not a lot of chest beating. You know, it's not, it, there's, there's, there's no posturing. It's like, dude, you've had a lot of trigger time. Yeah, man, there was this one time. It's, uh, you know, that's one thing I like about it. And it's got a, it doesn't take itself too seriously. I, I do notice that the drinking has been toned down in, in the coverage. It's, I don't know.

• 43:43Jack Murphy?

  You somewhat, I mean, I I've I've made a a personal uh resolution to not pregame uh episodes anymore.

• 43:51Speaker 04

  Good. Yes, I approve.

• 43:54Jack Murphy?

  So I have like one or one or two glasses during the show of Scotch and call it call it good.

• 44:00Speaker 04

  That's perfect. We need to keep it right there.

• 44:02Jack Murphy?

  Yeah, by the time the last the last one, who is the um the CIA guy, the whistleblower we interviewed? I got pretty sloshed on.

• 44:10Speaker 04

  Oh, John Kiriaku.

• 44:11Jack Murphy?

  Yeah, John Kiriaku.

• 44:12Speaker 04

  Yeah, you were fucking mangled. And you could tell, like, you could tell when Jack hits that point. It's like a switch, kind of.

• 44:20Jack Murphy?

  I'm like trying to get the words out. Yeah, tell me a little bit about that.

• 44:24Speaker 04

  John's very good. Like, he's very good on the mic. He can really spit, you know?

• 44:29Jack Murphy?

  Yeah, John um had a really interesting CIA career, obviously Greek dude. Um, we got him to tell the story about the assassination.

• 44:39Speaker 04

  That's cool. Yeah.

• 44:40Jack Murphy?

  What is it? Is it 17 November, Dee?

• 44:42Speaker 04

  Yeah, they tried to they clipped the MI6 guy.

• 44:45Jack Murphy?

  Like, like five cars, 10 cars ahead of him.

• 44:48Speaker 04

  Yeah, in the 90s.

• 44:50Jack Murphy?

  Wait, what? Who were they trying to get? Who was this? It was a Greek terrorist organization. And I mean, who they really were, who they really like, what they're like, there's a lot of murkiness around that organization. Um, and uh, so they they kill an MI6 guy and uh, they send a letter, I think, to either the British or the American Embassy. And in the letter, they say, yeah, we killed your MI6 guy and we saw the CIA dude five cars back and, you know, we didn't tag him this time. And and that was Kiriaku.

• 45:23Speaker 04

  Yeah. So like Greece was like super, he had an armored up car and everything like that. He took the, it wasn't like a, it's not Paris, you know, where it's like a chill kind of vibe.

• 45:35Jack Murphy?

  And then, and then he talked to some journalists about things that the United States government thinks that he should not be talking about, such as the CIA's torture program, for instance. And John did some, did some prison time. And so his, his prison stories were pretty funny, too.

• 45:55Jack Murphy?

  Being a, a pretty like, yeah, he, I mean, he's a CIA case officer, smart guy, of course, but not some, not exactly a prison hardened felon. By any means, so.

• 46:07Speaker 05

  I didn't realize he went to the slammer for that.

• 46:09Jack Murphy?

  Yeah, he did. He did some time in the.

• 46:10Speaker 04

  I think close to two years.

• 46:13Jack Murphy?

  Something like that. Yeah. But I mean, that episode, my, my, my public drunkenness aside, that was a good episode. And I mean, Kiriak.

• 46:20Speaker 04

  Also, when I, when I asked some folks, CIA folks about having John Kiriak on, I got fucking bitched out. I got fucking reamed out by people like, you can't have him on. He's a fucking traitor. I'm like, what?

• 46:36Speaker 05

  Really?

• 46:36Speaker 04

  Oh, yeah. Oh.

• 46:37Jack Murphy?

  I, I've definitely gotten some stuff like that over the years, but my, my thing has always been like, first off, I'll interview whoever the hell I want. And if you don't like it, just don't watch it.

• 46:47Speaker 04

  Right.

• 46:48Jack Murphy?

  But secondly is like, just because I interview somebody doesn't mean I endorse their entire worldview. I mean, we're trying to get these different perspectives out there. And if we were in a different time, like, would I interview former members of, you know, the, the Vermont that fought for Germany? Like, yeah, of course I would, because I'm trying to capture all of that history. It's not to celebrate, you know, the Third Reich. That's not what we're doing here. You know, even like some of the Rhodesians and South Africans we have on the show, like, we're not celebrating apartheid. Like, that's not what's, what's taking place.

• 47:23Speaker 04

  Right.

• 47:26Speaker 05

  Yeah, yeah, I was gonna ask you about that and I know I so even Mark Polly, you took a bunch of crap for that, right? Because he had signed a letter about.

• 47:37Speaker 04

  I mean, we get a couple of those comments like every time Mark Palmer off was would ask him about the letter. Ask him about the letter. Meanwhile, we have asked him about the letter in the exact show that they're commenting on. They just haven't fucking seen it. They just want to comment because they're fucking idiots.

• 47:52Speaker 05

  You're not asking the right questions.

• 47:55Speaker 04

  It's unreal. It's hilarious.

• 47:58Speaker 05

  So on the, on the, you know, on the, on the topic of drinking on the show, I think, Jack, you played off very well. I have to admit, and there's only one time where you went and I don't, I don't think this was on air. I think it might have been, no, it was. It was towards the end of the show. You went off to take a piss and.

• 48:13Speaker 04

  That's the one where you took your shirt off, Andy, where we didn't give you food. That's the one. Yeah.

• 48:17Speaker 05

  Yeah, you didn't give me.

• 48:19Speaker 04

  And it's, it's our fault completely. We apologize.

• 48:23Speaker 05

  Totally. Anyway, I'm, those, those days are in the past.

• 48:27Jack Murphy?

  Well, I never say never, Andy.

• 48:31Speaker 05

  Yeah, I mean, I'm, I'm, I'm waiting for my next invitation on, but.

• 48:36Speaker 04

  Bro, you have an open invite on.

• 48:38Jack Murphy?

  Yeah, I mean, anytime.

• 48:41Speaker 05

  Yeah, I would love to come back.

• 48:43Speaker 04

  But that one was funny. The one where you guys are shitfaced, really shitfaced.

• 48:48Jack Murphy?

  Yeah.

• 48:48Speaker 04

  Jack goes to go pee and I'm trying to land the plane. They come back, they're still talking for a few minutes. I'm like, all right, we gotta get the fuck out of here.

• 48:56Jack Murphy?

  Remember our girlfriends were there too, watching all of that. You remember that? The girls we were dating at the time?

• 49:04Speaker 05

  I do.

• 49:05Jack Murphy?

  We drank like a bottle and a half of scotch that night and staggered out of that studio.

• 49:10Speaker 04

  And there was so much snow too. It was like a foot of snow out.

• 49:13Jack Murphy?

  Yeah, yeah. I remember helping Andy's girlfriend over the snowbank that was like six feet high to get to the car.

• 49:20Speaker 05

  Not me, you know this. I was like, I was, I was lying half unconscious in the snow. And Mark's like, and Jack's like, let me, let me walk your girlfriend home.

• 49:32Jack Murphy?

  That would have been smooth.

• 49:34Speaker 04

  Andy was still trying to get his shirt on the right way.

• 49:37Jack Murphy?

  Yeah, well, and like two years later, I found like a sweatshirt or like kind of like a North Face jacket in the studio. And was like, I thought it was my jacket. I went to put it on and like the sleeves only come up to like here on me. I'm like, what the fuck is this? And I realized, oh, it's Andy's sweatshirt that he was asking me about years ago that he left in the studio.

• 49:57Speaker 04

  We still have that, Andy.

• 49:58Speaker 05

  And it was, it was super loose around the chest and the biceps. And there was plenty of, but just very tight around the gut.

• 50:08Jack Murphy?

  I felt like a little kid. I was like, the sleeves were just like.

• 50:13Speaker 05

  Yeah, happy days.

• 50:16Speaker 04

  So what, so what are you working on now with Sean Naylor?

• 50:20Jack Murphy?

  Uh, Sean is plugging away on the draft. I have sent him about part two of our Havana syndrome story.

• 50:28Speaker 04

  Part one was incredible. Check it out on the high side. Really cool, unheard stories. Those guys got totally fucked. It's incredible.

• 50:35Jack Murphy?

  Um, and then I'm working on two stories right now, kind of in tandem. And I'll just say, one of them is a JSOC operation. Uh, and then the other is a CIA program that that was run in Afghanistan that I don't think anyone's ever heard of before, unless you were one of three people who worked there, maybe. Um, so that's a, that's kind of like what's in the pipes right now.

• 51:03Speaker 05

  Tell us a little bit about the Havana one.

• 51:07Jack Murphy?

  Well, the Havana is part two.

• 51:09Speaker 05

  The hidden stories, some of the stories people haven't heard. I mean.

• 51:12Speaker 04

  So there is a video on Izan. We did an episode on Izan. You could check that out with Jack and Sean a few months back when the first part came out. Check that if you really want to get the whole sense of it. And if you really want to get in depth, high side, Substack, the link is in the description. You're welcome.

• 51:27Jack Murphy?

  The, the part two that which is not out yet gets much deeper into the medicine and the science of Havana syndrome. So interviewing a lot of like doctors and professionals about this. Um, other people in the national security sphere, um, who can talk about how we have similar microwave devices.

• 51:49Jack Murphy?

  And then we'll also get into some more of the domestic surveillance that some of these guys experienced.

• 51:58Jack Murphy?

  And there's some other stuff too, and I'm aware of some things that are potentially happening at DOD right now that I probably shouldn't get into quite yet, but you may see some more information about this topic come out from our government in the next month or so.

• 52:15Speaker 05

  Wait, so why did it occur in Havana? I mean, I know we have Mark Polymeroplis.

• 52:24Jack Murphy?

  Attaboy.

• 52:25Speaker 05

  Thank you, because we just call him Mark P., you know, who went through the same experience in Moscow, but why do you think it occurred in Havana? Are there any any theories about that?

• 52:38Jack Murphy?

  Um.

• 52:39Speaker 05

  There and then.

• 52:40Jack Murphy?

  Yeah, well, so the when has to do with because we were normalizing relations with Cuba at the time, and this was something that the Russians definitely didn't want to see happen. There were a number of other things on the periphery. I don't know, and this is one of those other like lingering questions is, you know, how much did the Cubans know? Now, it's basically implausible for them to have known nothing. The idea that there were like Russian GRU guys running around Havana zapping people with some sort of microwave device. I mean, Cuba is authoritarian surveillance state, like everything is being watched. Everyone is being watched.

• 53:24Jack Murphy?

  So to have like teams doing some like kind of espionage out on the streets of Havana, much less zapping people without the Cuban government knowing that is kind of impossible to even fathom. But, you know, were the Cubans kind of like deceived to some extent where they told, hey, we're gonna go install some listening devices? And in reality, they just, they put something that was more kinetic. That's a possibility that I couldn't discount.

• 53:56Speaker 05

  Why, I mean, why did, why did these people have such a hard time? Being heard, you know, we've heard Mark P's story about.

• 54:05Jack Murphy?

  Yeah, because the CIA didn't want to hear it. They still don't want to hear it to this day. Um, even as the DOD is like coming forward and like, yeah, this, this is real. This is the thing. CIA is, is really the, they're really the last ones. At the party who are holding that party line. They're, they're kind of the last agency that's still trying to say, well, I don't think this is real, you know? Maybe you got TBI from something else, whatever.

• 54:34Jack Murphy?

  And a lot of that has to do with, you know, it became a personnel issue for them. That there were already people who were declining to go overseas. They're like, oh, our friends just came back from Havana or they just came back from. Uh, Austria or wherever, and this guy is like in a wheelchair now. Like, there's no way, like, we're going over there with our family. And like, we're, you know, working like a normal embassy kind of tour. So it was already causing personnel issues. And, you know, as you had people getting zapped in Havana, Austria.

• 55:09Jack Murphy?

  Central Asia, Vietnam, uh, all these different places.

• 55:14Speaker 05

  Yeah, I didn't realize it was so widespread.

• 55:16Jack Murphy?

  Yeah, all over the world. Uh, China was another one. But as that happens, I mean, this really did have the. Potential to shut down American global human intelligence operations, in my opinion. Because if, you know, CIA people just were not, either were, were refusing to deploy. Or would not go overseas anymore, or, or, or the agency itself was declining to send them. I mean, it would shut down our human networks globally. At some point. If it got bad enough. And I think the Russians found a way to do that. In a non-lethal manner, you know, you're going to scramble somebody's brain, but they're not going to be able to even prove what was done to them.

• 56:02Jack Murphy?

  It's not like an assassination. Where there's a body and you know, that's probably going to piss some people off. So I think they found a way to use technology for a sort of workaround. And there's this whole tit for tat that was going on between the normalization of relations with Cuba. Russia striking back against that, the 2016 election and the Russians interfering in that. And then afterwards, Russia House at CIA got very serious about going after Russia. And after Russian intelligence operations, and they really fucked some of them up too, from what I understand. And so the Havana stuff keeps coming.

• 56:44Jack Murphy?

  And if I were to write a story like a sequel or a part three to my Havana story. I would want to write similar to what I wrote about what happened in Cuba. And talking to all the people there, write that about China. Because that was the next place where these, these events started happening. And I think it would be really interesting to sort of peel back the onion on that. And, and get to the bottom of, you know, the similarities and differences of what happened in China.

• 57:12Speaker 05

  Do you think it was Chinese though, doing it in China? Because the Russian model. I won't say it was brilliant, but it was pretty inspired. I mean, when you think about what it had achieved. It caused divisions within the agency itself. It caused a, an institutional lack of confidence. And it, it, I mean, the repercussions were widespread. And, and at a time when all those other things were going on.

• 57:40Jack Murphy?

  I, I think the whole thing should be seen primarily as a psychological operation rather than a kinetic operation or whatever you want to call it, microwaves.

• 57:51Jack Murphy?

  Because I think the psychological component was the main effort, not actually. You know, toasting people, which, which happened, you know, I'm not denying or doubting that at all. It definitely happened. But I, I think the, the follow on psychological aspects of it was, was the real main point. And I mean, the Russians have, they've developed this concept called reflexive control theory. Which is pretty interesting. And talk, this isn't in the article I wrote, I wrote something about this years ago. But basically the way they look at it, it's sort of a form of game theory. And so the way they look at it is like they they will study the institution and its decision making process. So like in the military, we use, what is that? MDMP, like the military decision making

• 58:36Jack Murphy?

  process. If you look at that process, and then from a psychological operations standpoint, look at how can we insert information into that process? How can we get inside that decision making loop right there and insert our own information into it? And again, there are some interesting things about that, that, once you insert the information, and if it's believed that the institution takes it and does what you want them to with it, it requires no further input from a disinformation agent, or from a from an intelligence service, that it just continues to run. And I think that you've seen them insert some of these pieces of information into, in this case, let's say, our

• 59:20Jack Murphy?

  intelligence community, our intelligence culture, and it is continues to to this day to have benefits, you know, out greatly outsized benefits for the Russians.

• 59:32Speaker 05

  And caused really fundamental divisions. And I wonder, you know, part of that, part of that is, it's a, to me, it's a, a problem with the culture within our intelligence organizations. And I'll give you an example, you have, you have guys who've had exceptional careers, and then suddenly something happens to them. They, you know, naturally, they want they want answers, and they, they pursue, you know, they go ahead and get treatment, but they they're vocal about wanting to get answers to what happened and saying, no, this really did happen. And the way that the organization, the institution reacts, shows almost a level of insecurity by trying to quash

• 1:00:15Speaker 05

  these guys and pretend that it hadn't. I mean, it was extraordinary.

• 1:00:20Jack Murphy?

  Yeah, the the nature of secrecy, I think, shields the CIA from having to take accountability or responsibility for a lot of things. And it, I mean, it does sound like, I mean, not a very nice place to work. There are a lot of like, great, I know a lot of people who served there at this point, and a lot of them, I mean, most of them are really great people. But as far as like the senior intelligence staff, and like how they how they handle and manage that organization. I mean, there's some truth to that, you know, kind of like cliche that like the CIA is this like backstabbing, cutthroat organization. They are like that, but not necessarily when it comes to running operations on our adversaries.

• 1:01:00Jack Murphy?

  They're like that against our, their own employees when they happen to step outside a very narrow band of approved behaviors. Um, they get pretty pissed and very vindictive.

• 1:01:13Speaker 04

  Pursuing them to, to this day even.

• 1:01:17Jack Murphy?

  Yeah, I mean, it, it's works like a, uh, like an organism, you know, it deploys white blood cells against the, the problem, you know, instead of actually fixing the problem. It's like, you know, how do we shut this person up? Um, and you, I mean, there's a lot of stuff I probably shouldn't get into off the cuff like this, but.

• 1:01:35Speaker 04

  Do it.

• 1:01:37Jack Murphy?

  Well, I mean, there's, there's, there's stuff, um, like, okay. So for instance, like the CIA never had a me too movement, uh, a me too moment. Um, really, we had this like all throughout America, um, from Hollywood to the army, right? There's all, there, the, the, this me too thing kind of happened. It never really happened for the CIA. Um, because classification, um, is, is something they're able to hide behind. Uh, when you have an organization where everyone has to maintain a TS, a clearance. The second someone starts speaking out, you can threaten to take that. And as you know, Andy, I mean, for someone in the intelligence community, that's your livelihood. Um, you, it's not that you just can't work at CIA. It's that you can't work in this profession.

• 1:02:22Speaker 04

  Yeah. It's a license to do business. Yeah. It's literally your license to business.

• 1:02:25Jack Murphy?

  Union card, you're done. Um, so there are, there's a lot of toxic shit that happens at the CIA. Um, from dudes just, you know, sleeping with other, their, their employees, wives. Um, I've even heard some weird stories about like cuckolding type stuff where it's like, let me fuck your wife and I'll elevate you and your wife in the organization. Um, I've heard stuff about like a lot of like date rape stuff. Unfortunately, um, there's some really nasty shit out there. Um, and unfortunately it doesn't seem like the organization does really fuck all to clean it up until the dam bursts, right? Like that guy, um, there's the dude who was date raping the local girls in Algeria.

• 1:03:09Jack Murphy?

  And I mean, it wasn't until these girls came into the embassy and were like, yeah, this guy who works here raped us the other night, drugged us and raped us. And then they finally have to do something about it.

• 1:03:22Speaker 05

  This was an agency guy?

• 1:03:23Jack Murphy?

  Yeah, this was a CIA officer like relatively senior. I can't remember his name off the top of my head. Rolling Stone did an article about him, which is pretty funny, amusing in the sense, I don't think they would write an article like this today. But they basically let this dude say that like the CIA persecuted him because he's black. Rather than being persecuted because he's a rapist.

• 1:03:45Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 1:03:45Jack Murphy?

  It's like, okay, dude, like, and so the Rolling Stone, of course, kind of like runs with that a little bit and is like, oh, maybe the CIA is racist. That's like, I don't think that's the point of this story.

• 1:03:57Jack Murphy?

  We're not seeing the forest through the trees here, folks.

• 1:03:59Speaker 05

  You can't make it up. Hey, you know, I know, I know we're winding down, Dee, but I just, you know, on, on that topic. I, one thing I've totally, actually, it's not on that topic, except that we were talking about sex. Which is not unusual in this.

• 1:04:16Jack Murphy?

  Andrew Warren was his name. Yeah, that's him.

• 1:04:19Speaker 05

  Yeah. So what era are we talking about?

• 1:04:21Jack Murphy?

  Two thousand nine.

• 1:04:23Speaker 05

  Okay. So it was a while ago and he was a case officer?

• 1:04:26Jack Murphy?

  Yeah. Station chief in Algeria.

• 1:04:29Speaker 05

  Station chief. That's, I mean, it's just amazing. So he didn't suddenly start doing this shit, right?

• 1:04:35Jack Murphy?

  Yeah, no way.

• 1:04:36Speaker 05

  No, it's not like he made station chief and thought, hey, you know what? I'm, I'm going to go out and drug and rape girls. I mean, someone like that has had a track record.

• 1:04:44Jack Murphy?

  Right.

• 1:04:45Speaker 05

  Undoubtedly going all the way back to college and it's.

• 1:04:48Jack Murphy?

  And that's a frightening thing, right?

• 1:04:50Speaker 05

  Yeah, he's gone through all those investigations. He's, well, he went through the farm. He went through, you know, all those years in the agency and who knows what he did in other countries overseas until. Finally, he gets caught. It's like, and this is where I was heading on this too. So in, in the military. What never ceases to amaze me are the number of flag officers, generals and admirals who get in trouble. You know, it's kind of the sun god syndrome, right? And they get in trouble invariably because of sex-related stuff. It's, you know, time and time again, and we can name half a dozen names of really big figures who've done just outrageous things and just think that they can get away with it.

• 1:05:35Speaker 05

  But then, on the other hand, that wasn't something that just came to the fore when they made Flag Officer, right? I mean, look at this dude. Okay, so this is not sex-related, but look at this sort of four-star admiral, Admiral Burke, who was the vice chief of naval operations, just indicted, just found guilty of corruption, right? Which is not unusual in the Navy, and we know that from Fat Leonard. But his downfall was the fact that he had a girlfriend who spilled the beans. He pissed her off. But, I mean, he was doing absolutely outrageous, outrageous stuff, you know, so, and, and, and getting away with it. And it's not as though he suddenly, you know, woke up as a four-star admiral and didn't

• 1:06:20Speaker 05

  have integrity in doing that or his, you know, that sort of thing or his career. It's quite an interesting story if you read, you know, if you, if you read the background. I mean, not only was he doing nefarious stuff, but he was, he was basically bringing in this company to teach leadership in the Navy, and the company was gonna give him a job when he got out. That was the agreement. And he was having an affair, and he was bringing that girl to all of these meetings. I mean, it was, you know, you just can't, I guess where I'm heading on this is, there is something, whatever, whatever means that the military and the, you know, I get your

• 1:07:01Speaker 05

  point on the agency, it's even more of a closed field, but whatever means we do of assessing and people, and it's, it's highly fallible. And in the military, we have this problem of...

• 1:07:17Speaker 05

  We, I think we become too obsequious to people with rank. And when you make, certainly when you make general, I mean, you've seen it, you've seen in the military how sycophantic people are to flag officers. It's sickening. And then when people make four star, they are treated like viceroy's. You know, they travel with this entourage, they, you know, they'll, they'll reserve like a whole level on a, the Marriott and, and you know, people are lining up side the door to, to brief them. It's just the way they are treated, referred to in the third person. And we, we, we kind of.

• 1:07:52Jack Murphy?

  I general, I've heard that.

• 1:07:53Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 1:07:54Jack Murphy?

  I general.

• 1:07:55Speaker 05

  We, we build this, we build this culture. I'm not saying it's related to what's happening in the agency. It's a different sort of endemic problem with the culture. But yeah, we, I, I don't know what it is.

• 1:08:07Speaker 04

  Why do they do that? Just to get ahead? Like, hey, this guy will fucking promote me and shit or what?

• 1:08:13Jack Murphy?

  No, I think there's, there's definitely that, but I mean, there is also like this sort of like genuine, like admiration, if not love, that exists in many cases. And you know, as Andy's pointing out, like, kind of elevate these people a little bit too much and, and place too much faith in them. And at a bare minimum, I mean, we should recognize that, you know, they're only human, right?

• 1:08:36Speaker 05

  Yeah. Yeah. And it's not, you don't see that in other Western militaries. You don't see that same level of, of the, of the obsequiousness and sycophancy. And it's, yeah, it's damaging. It leads people to, to bad behavior.

• 1:08:53Speaker 05

  So, you know, we, as we end the discussion on bad behavior, which I think is a good, you know, a good note. Dee, is there anything, anything else you want to say or wrap up? I don't want to, I don't want to take up too much of, uh.

• 1:09:05Speaker 04

  That's all right. He's fine.

• 1:09:06Speaker 05

  Sycophancy, the great Jack Murphy's time.

• 1:09:09Speaker 04

  He's fine. Hey, we were supposed to have a podcast at some point today, like at three P M. Today, and we don't have it. So he's free. Uh, Jack going back to China and like, uh, the guy, the people that got hit with the Havana syndrome. Do you think that's China doing it like in conjunction with Russia or is it Russia doing it in China? Yeah.

• 1:09:28Jack Murphy?

  Yeah, I, I honestly don't know. Uh, that's why I'd, I'd have to go like almost start all over again, you know, because a totally new set of people I would have to go talk to. But I, I think it might be worthwhile to do that at some point.

• 1:09:41Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 1:09:43Speaker 04

  All right, um, I got nothing else. Andy, you have anything?

• 1:09:47Speaker 05

  I don't. It's been fun bullshitting with you guys as usual.

• 1:09:52Speaker 04

  Jackalope, you got anything? Tell me.

• 1:09:54Jack Murphy?

  No, no, man. Um, you know, the deal. Check us out on the team house. I hope you guys have all been enjoying Eyes On and um, maybe we can uh do a follow up after the barbecue this Memorial Day.

• 1:10:10Speaker 04

  Oh yeah, we could totally do that. That'd be awesome.

• 1:10:12Speaker 05

  You should go from barbecue.

• 1:10:15Speaker 04

  Yeah, just live stream from the barbecue. I don't know. There's people there that don't want to be seen.

• 1:10:22Speaker 04

  And it's it's just too many personalities at that place. Like, I don't want to fucking have to wrangle that shit.

• 1:10:29Jack Murphy?

  True.

• 1:10:30Speaker 04

  Like, I'm literally the wrangler. Uh, guys, do us a favor. Like and subscribe. If you're listening to us on audio, subscribe there and you can rate five stars as well. Check out Andy's book, When the Tempest Gathers. Uh, links are all in the description for that. Jack Murphy, of course, Substack, The High Side link is in the description there, too. All his links will be there as well. And the best way you could, the best thing you could possibly do, besides Jack's High Side, sorry, besides Andy's uh uh book, is join the Patreon, patreon.com slash the team house. You get both the team house and Eyes On completely ad free and early. You get it a couple of days early for sure, both video and audio. If you hit the $10 level

• 1:11:14Speaker 04

  and you want it, you can get a free patch from us. I'll send it myself. Um, and you help support the show, um, which is the most important thing. You get us to keep going with like incredible experts like Andy, Jack, Mick, Jason, and all the guests we get. So that's patreon.com slash the team house. It's very important. I'm not just saying that to say that. Um, I feel like I had something else to say, but I can't remember. So that's it.

• 1:11:42Speaker 05

  Cool. Well, as always, great chatting with you guys.

• 1:11:47Speaker 05

  And we'll see you next week. Enjoy your barbecue. Happy Memorial Day.

• 1:11:52Speaker 04

  Yeah, Happy Memorial Day, everybody. We'll probably have another episode of Eyes On coming out Sunday night with the full crew, probably. I hope Andy Mick, Mick's a weekend guy. He's a weekend warrior because he's got like a real job. Trying to save the world with humanitarian aid, which shout out to that. His links are also in the description as well. I'm telling you guys, I totally forgot something and I'm trying to remember. That's why I'm stalling here.

• 1:12:18Speaker 05

  We'll give you, we'll give you an awkward 15 seconds to.

• 1:12:21Speaker 04

  I'm not worried about an awkward, awkward pause. I live on awkward silences.

• 1:12:26Speaker 05

  Do you think about that? I'm just going to admire. Jack, is that the same apartment that I stayed in?

• 1:12:31Jack Murphy?

  Yeah.

• 1:12:32Speaker 05

  Yep. Thank you for that, by the way.

• 1:12:35Jack Murphy?

  Hey, at least I could do, bro.

• 1:12:37Speaker 04

  You know what's interesting? Like Andy stayed at my house too before and he doesn't say, oh, is that the place that I stayed at? I really appreciate it.

• 1:12:46Speaker 05

  I just don't remember saying it.

• 1:12:51Jack Murphy?

  If you look up, that's the new pull-up board right there.

• 1:12:57Speaker 05

  Oh, right. Yeah. Like the one that that landed on my.

• 1:13:00Jack Murphy?

  Like the one that knocked you out? No, this is a new one. If this, if this lands on your head, it'll, it'll actually kill you. Um.

• 1:13:08Speaker 05

  I'll bear that in mind next to my visit.

• 1:13:10Speaker 04

  That's right. Andy got concussed at a Jack's apartment when he was trying to do pull-ups.

• 1:13:15Speaker 05

  Yeah, I was completely sober.

• 1:13:18Speaker 04

  All right, guys. Thank you for this. We should do this often where it's just a bullshit episode. Just.

• 1:13:23Speaker 05

  Yeah. Yeah, I like that. You're the only human beings I get to talk to. Bye, guys.

• 1:13:31Speaker 04

  Bye.

• 1:13:32Jack Murphy?

  All right. See you next time. Hey, guys, it's Jack. I just want to talk to you for a moment about how you can support the show. If you've been watching it, enjoying it. Um, but you'd like to get a little bit more involved and help us continue to do this. You can check out our Patreon. It is patreon.com slash the team house. And for $5 a month, you can get access to all of these episodes of the team house ad free. Uh, the same goes with our affiliated podcast Eyes On with Andy Milburn, Jason Lyons, Mick Mulroy. Uh, that one, you will also get all of those episodes ad free. And you support the channel and the show and we really appreciate it. The Patreon members are literally what has helped this company, this small business,

• 1:14:15Jack Murphy?

  survive, especially during our early years. And you are what continues to help this thing going even as we navigate the turbulent world of YouTube advertising. So we really appreciate all of you guys. There's going to be a link down in the description to that Patreon page. And there is also going to be a link to our new merch shop. So if you guys want to go and get some Team House merchandise, we got stickers and we also have patches. And I should mention, if you sign up for Patreon at $10 a month, we will mail you this patch as well. So we really appreciate that. But they're also for sale on the merch shop.

• 1:14:55Jack Murphy?

  And additionally, they got t-shirts up there, water bottles, a tote bag, coffee mugs, all that good stuff. So please go and check them out and support the show. We really appreciate it, guys. Thank you.

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