Pod Insights Gone Medieval How Horses Ran the Medieval World About this episode How integral were horses to warfare, agriculture and travel in the Middle Ages? What did your horse say about your status? How can knowing more about horses unlock a deeper understanding of medieval society itself?
Matt Lewis is joined by equestrian historian Dr. Anastasija Ropa to understand the way horses powered the Middle Ages.
MORE
Fantastic Beasts of the Middle Ages
Listen on Apple https://podcasts.apple.com/gb/podcast/fantastic-beasts-of-the-middle-ages/id1564113746?i=1000657282825
Listen on Spotify https://open.spotify.com/episode/4GaGzjKmCVEJnEo7oelQHa
Dragons: From Eden to Middle Earth
Listen on Apple https://podcasts.apple.com/gb/podcast/dragons-from-eden-to-middle-earth/id1564113746?i=1000718667593
Listen to Spotify https://open.spotify.com/episode/05PDdzvDlc8Q9DpApn7HzP
Gone Medieval is presented by Matt Lewis. Audio editor is Amy Haddow, the producers are Rob Weinberg and Joseph Knight. The senior producer is Anne-Marie Luff.
All music used is courtesy of Epidemic Sounds.
Gone Medieval is a History Hit podcast.
Sign up to History Hit for hundreds of hours of original documentaries, with a new release every week. Sign up at https://www.historyhit.com/subscribe.
You can take part in our listener survey here https://insights.historyhit.com/history-hit-podcast-always-on:
https://insights.historyhit.com/history-hit-podcast-always-on
Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy https://acast.com/privacy for more information.
Transcript Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.
0:01 Matt Lewis? From long-lost Viking ships and kings buried in unexpected places, to tales of murder, power, faith, and the lives of ordinary people across medieval Europe and beyond. Join me, Matt Lewis, Dr. Eleanor Yarnagger, and some of the world's leading historians as we bring history's most fascinating stories to life, only on History Hit. With your subscription, you'll unlock hundreds of hours of exclusive documentaries with a brand new release every week, exploring everything from the ancient world to World War II. Just visit historyhit.com/subscribe.
0:42 Speaker 01 Hey, we're Nick and Jack, hosts of The Best One Yet. Behind every episode, there's research, emails, spreadsheets, and our shared Google Doc, the Headline Hammer. With Google Workspace with Gemini, Google's AI is built right into the premium versions of tools we already use, like Gmail, Docs, and Sheets. No new tools or extra logins, just personalized AI for the way we work. That means less time on the work around the work and more time finding the stories worth talking about. Get AI tools for work. Upgrade to Google Workspace with Gemini at go.o.gle/workspacewithGemini. That's go.o.gle/workspacewithGemini.
1:15 Speaker 02 Hey, it's Adam Grant from TED's Rethinking Podcast. As businesses scale, success depends on how well knowledge is captured, shared, and kept up to date. Camtasia Pro turns teams' expertise into engaging training, onboarding, and documentation. No professional editing experience required. With the industry's best screen recording, video editing, and AI-powered workflows, you can train faster and boost operational efficiency. Get over $100 off your first year at camtasiapro.com and start building a smarter way to educate customers, onboard employees, and ensure valuable expertise is shared across teams.
1:51 Matt Lewis? Hello, I'm Matt Lewis. Welcome to Gone Medieval from History Hit, the podcast that delves into the greatest millennium in human history. We've got the most intriguing mysteries, the gobsmacking details, and latest groundbreaking research from the Vikings to the printing press, from kings to popes to the crusades. We cross centuries and continents to delve into rebellions, plots, and murders to find the stories, big and small, that tell us how we got here. Find out who we really were with Gone Medieval.
2:33 Matt Lewis? You're standing at a medieval crossroads on a bustling spring morning. Here comes a monk bouncing uncomfortably atop a threadbare mule whose ears flick back and forth with each determined step. The monk's robes flap in the breeze as he clutches his saddle with white knuckles. Just behind him, a more impressive procession approaches. A knight in gleaming armour rides proudly upon a spirited corsa, while his young squire struggles to control both his own raunchy and the imposing warhorse he leads by the reins. Bred for strength rather than towering height, the warhorse snorts impatiently, armour clanking with each powerful step.
3:16 Matt Lewis? Meanwhile, a lady of noble birth passes by on her elegant palfrey, sitting sideways in her specialised saddle. Her ambler provides a comfortable ride that doesn't disturb her elaborate headdress or trailing sleeves. And just beyond the road, humble working horses strain to pull ploughs through thick soil while rippling cart-horses haul goods towards the market square. Horses in the Middle Ages weren't just for transportation. An entire economic and social system was built on their backs. In fact, mules were sometimes worth more than horses because they could carry heavier loads on rough terrain while eating less food.
3:58 Matt Lewis? Medieval people understood something about horses that we sometimes forget today. We often treat horses like living machines, but medieval handlers recognised them as partners who could either help or hinder human goals. Today, we're going to gallop our way through history to explore how horses, mules and donkeys shaped medieval society. From battlefields to wheatfields, from royal processions to pilgrims paths. We'll discover why understanding these magnificent animals is key to understanding the medieval world itself. Joining me is Dr Anastasia Roper, who lectures at the Latvian Academy of Sport Education and has owned and trained horses for many years.
4:42 Matt Lewis? Her new book, The Medieval Horse, has just been published by Reaction Books.
4:50 Matt Lewis? Welcome to Gone Medieval, Anastasia. It's fantastic to have you with us.
4:53 Speaker 03 Thank you, Matt, and I'm very glad to be here too. Thank you for inviting me.
4:59 Matt Lewis? No, it's a pleasure. I think this should be a really fascinating topic that's kind of disappeared under our radar, because I think when people think about the medieval period, you will often have a horse in there. It's a knight on a horse, or it's a field with a horse pulling a plough or something like that. Just how significant and important would you say horses, mules and donkeys are to the Middle Ages?
5:22 Speaker 03 Okay, so horses, mules and donkeys, as you rightly pointed out, they were basically everywhere, just like we have cars today. And just like today, not everybody who knows what a car is would be an expert driver or knows how a car functions. So in the Middle Ages, people were very much aware of horses, of their presence. But there is a misunderstanding. A lot of people think that all medieval people, they knew everything about horses. Not everybody knew everything about horses, even if they used horses, mules and donkeys all the time.
5:58 Matt Lewis? Yeah, yeah. So if we consider horses and mules and donkeys to be sort of central integral to medieval society, could you talk us through a little bit of the different types of horses in particular, I guess, and what they were used for?
6:15 Speaker 03 Okay, as you said, that the iconic image of the Middle Ages is the knight on horseback.
6:24 Speaker 03 And the horse he's riding, iconically, it's a warhorse, oddest year. But warhorses, elite horses, and just like elite cars today, there would be like, at best, 5% of all horse, mule and donkey population in any given country.
6:45 Speaker 03 Knights could also ride coursers. So courser is a horse which is a little bit less expensive, faster, maybe not as heavily built, lighter built, like a track and field athlete who is doing a marathon. But also quite expensive and quite well-trained. You could also have a palfrey. That's a horse which is pleasant to ride, which is nice to travel on. Horses have different kind of gates and some horses are just not easy to ride on. They could be wonderful animals with all kinds of great qualities, but if you want to ride all day, you want a horse that's easy to sit on. So palfreys, they could, some of them could amble.
7:29 Speaker 03 That's a gate where the horse lifts both of its legs on the same side of the body. That's very comfortable to sit to. So that's super horse for travelling. But all these elite horses, they were much rarer than working horses. So pulling carts, plowing the fields, doing all kinds of work, also working as pack animals. Mules, depending on the region, they could be used by knights for travelling. For example, in Iberia, because mules are much better for travelling around mountains. They could also be used by servants, by the clergy, by women. But yeah, they were these hybrid animals.
8:14 Speaker 03 And donkeys were used by the poor people for riding, for carrying burdens, for also doing kind of harness work. In England, I think there weren't that many donkeys, because climate in this northern, western regions of Europe, it wasn't very conducive to keeping donkeys. But more to the south, donkeys were. Quite present and that's another overlooked animal.
8:42 Matt Lewis? I like the comparison to a car today. So if we saw someone in the medieval period riding a horse or a mule down the road, we would be able to get some idea of their their social status and their wealth, maybe from the type of animal that they're riding?
8:58 Speaker 03 Yeah, so that was the case even in the early modern period and I guess up to the 19th century, if you remember the Three Musketeers and there is that yellow horse, everybody is laughing at this yellow galley who is a bit old, actually not that old. But Dumas is making a case that you see the horse and you realise that's a poor guy who is sort of noble but not so noble, gentle, doesn't have much money but still riding something. So in medieval romance, we see quite a lot of instances where people instantly
9:38 Speaker 03 can tell, oh, that's a warhorse, or that's a courser. That's a very poor scrawling view. So people, yes, they recognise immediately, just like today, we can recognise different brands of cars, people could recognise different types of horses.
9:57 Matt Lewis? Yeah, fascinating. You talk in the book about the myth that has kind of been debunked, about the idea that knights' horses in particular, the destriers that you mentioned before, were these sort of huge, tall, thundering warhorses. I wonder if you could talk us through a little bit of the evidence that we have for what kind of size they really were and how we know that they weren't quite what we thought they were?
10:21 Speaker 03 Okay, so we can look at different sources. One of them is horse bone from the Middle Ages, those is artistic evidence. Then we can have surviving horse equipment, which can be measured, and we can look at literature. So in literature, what we see is they're often talking about great horses or big horses when they're talking about knights. So it's... Quite natural that you get the impression that tonight has a big horse, but big is a relative thing. Big relative to what? Today's big horses, like Shires, you cannot see over their backs, right? In the Middle Ages, if you look at images, people can quite easily look over the back of the horse.
11:06 Speaker 03 They can also maybe touch the horse on the other side. So even if these are big horses, by today's standards, they are very moderately sized horses. And recently, there was quite a lot of research into horse bones, and all evidence points out that until the end of the 15th century, there are no horse bones in Europe which would indicate horses over 16 hands, or much over 16 hands. That's very moderate today. And average horse populations, there would be 13 to 14 hands. So today, these are ponies, according to classification. So depending on the period, the region,
11:50 Speaker 03 and of course, each particular owner or breeder, you would have like from a big pony to a small horse. And we can suggest that possibly, because they were called great horses, these were horses could have been quite big by medieval standards, but by today's standards, they are very moderately sized. They don't even make the standard for the police horse, most of them.
12:17 Matt Lewis? That's fascinating and amazing that we've kind of held on to this idea that they were somehow huge by our standards today, rather than putting in the context of the time. But these kind of myths around horses are quite important, I think. They find their way into into romance literature. What part do horses play in in sort of romance stories of the medieval period too?
12:41 Speaker 03 Okay, so there are some romances which actually have horses play a role, almost speak there, at least very actively, and participate in the narrative, like the magical horse Bayor carrying people. Or in the Middle Ages, people liked the romance of Alexander the Great. And we have Busifalus, who is this great horse who needs taming and who acts in a very particular way.
13:13 Speaker 03 So these horses are almost heroes in their own right. On the other hand, in most romances, horses don't have names, but they act as the knight's alter ego, kind of part of the knight's identity. So if you are riding a good horse, then you're kind of doing well on the hierarchy of romances. But if you're riding a poor horse, then there is something wrong with, between your kind of status as a knight and your current situation. For example, Sir Percival as a young knight, he wants to become a knight, but he doesn't know what horses are. So depending on the version of the romance, he either chooses a courser,
13:58 Speaker 03 which is fine. But in the Middle English romance, he actually doesn't know what horses are. So he chooses wild pregnant mare and rides you home without any equipment, which is a big blunder, of course. But yeah, so everybody who sees him are laughing. The readers are laughing because that's not the kind of horse a knight would be riding.
14:20 Matt Lewis? And I guess treating them as an extension of the personality of the knight, of the hero of the story, either for good or for ill, is a great way of positioning the horse as as a core part of what a knight is doing, of talking about that really close relationship that must have existed between a horse and its rider.
14:40 Speaker 03 Yes, definitely. Of course, not every knight would enjoy a very close relationship with every horse. Sometimes a horse is just like a vehicle to get you from one point to the other horse. Now, just like your rental car. On the other hand, we know that some people have very close relationship with their cars and with the horses who who can have a mind, a personality, a character of their own, who are not always acting as you want them to act. On the other hand, who can act in a way that can help you, who can do something for you which you yourself wouldn't be able to do. So you are definitely going to form a relationship if you are having a particular horse for a longer time.
15:24 Speaker 03 Again, we know about these horses who have a very, very close relationship. Alexander the Great and the Bushephalos is a timeless myth which shows how the riders find understanding of the horse's needs. It just pays back because the horse who is untameable by all accounts just becomes the best friend of the rider. There are some knights who have horses which are named and you can clearly see that they love the mount. For example, Sir Gawain, he has at least two horses which are mentioned in romances.
16:04 Speaker 03 And the less known is Griselle, but in the Middle English Romance of Adventures of King Arthur Gawain has Griselle killed under him during a judicial duel. And he's just burst into crying as if his fellow knight had been killed. He's just, "Oh, my fellow, Griselle is killed. There is no other horse like him. He doesn't want to have a replacement horse. He wants to continue fighting on foot and avenge his horse." And he does that. So you can see that this relationship could be very close. It could be even reciprocal, when a horse wants to follow the rider and doesn't want to have any other rider on his back.
16:46 Speaker 03 That's what medieval bestiaries say, that some horses will not accept any other rider but their owner.
16:54 Matt Lewis? And we've been talking a lot about knights and their horses, but I guess we need to acknowledge that the vast majority of medieval horses would have been working animals. Do we get any sense of what life was like for a working horse?
17:09 Speaker 03 Okay, so just like with peasants and working people, there is less evidence for what life would have been like for working equites, horses, donkeys, but some evidence is there. And first of all, any animal could have progressed or go down on this social ladder from being a warhorse to being even a working horse when they retired or were made unfit for war service. Or maybe the rider realizes that this horse doesn't really work as a warhorse, so...
17:46 Speaker 03 Maybe it should be my servants riding horses, that's it. Most of we talk, we are talking about stallions, not mares, because mares were used for breeding or for breeding and working on the farm. But in some cases in Europe, mares could be ridden as well. It's just, it doesn't get into the record so often, because riding a mare, it's, it looks like it's a big shame. Certainly in the East, we can see that people, the nomads in the Arabic peninsula, they could be riding anything. Mares, geldings and stallions.
18:23 Speaker 03 But there would be a difference for them, because it would depend on the, on the work to be done, so to say. As for working horses, just going back to working horses, and in particular working mares, there are some accounts which indicate that working mares had two jobs. First of all, to breed new foals, and second, to work. But for the horse to do both works quite well, it needs to be balanced, first of all. And second, depending on how well you care for the horse, its productivity and its lifespan won't depend on that. So today, horses could live thirty years and longer. In the Middle Ages, their lives seems to have been shorter.
19:09 Speaker 03 Although some authors mention that if you take good care of a horse, it would serve you for twenty years, which is, which is amazing. Today, not all riding horses have a useful lifespan of twenty years. Some of them die or have to be retired much earlier, that's kind of ideal.
19:27 Matt Lewis? You mentioned there that there was a slight difference in attitudes to horses in the East and the West. Is, is that marked? Are horses treated differently in the East and the West?
19:37 Speaker 03 Yes, well, first of all, it's, there is mental attitude. On the other hand, it, it depends on, on the conditions and the work in which horses are used. So if we look at nomadic societies, they're traveling with their horses. So the horses have a very, very close connection all the time with the people. And even if, when this nomadic people get settled, they still retain this close connection conceptually. For example, in the Amalukaro, they would have a stable palace. So horses are at the bottom. The ground floor, should we say, and the rest of it is on the top floors.
20:18 Speaker 03 And they would also have hippodromes, training grounds, within a city, within medieval Cairo. In the Middle Ages, the connection could have been less close. For example, on the manner, uh, ridden horses would and working horses would be kept slightly apart. Okay, definitely no medieval ruler would put stables on the ground floor. Could be for all kinds of reasons, also practical reasons, um, horses are quite smelly, um. On the other hand, as we go later into the Middle Ages, into Renaissance Italy, we get almost the same phenomenon when rulers magnate erecting uh, stables which look like palaces.
21:03 Speaker 03 Okay, they don't live there really, but their stables are so magnificent. Some of them have even like life-size portraits of these horses on the walls that uh, we're getting the impression that uh, there must be some cultural exchange when uh, this attitude of taking pride in horses just gets transferred between Italy and the Near East.
21:29 Matt Lewis? Yeah, uh, and we've talked a bit about working horses. I wonder, are there during this period, are there wild horses? And are they kind of managed in any way?
21:39 Speaker 03 Yes, so wild horses, it's another kind of area where not much research has been done because uh, most sources, they keep silent on wild horses. However, I've been doing some new research which focused on wild horses in particular. Actually, they were not really wild, in the sense that wild has never domesticated.
22:05 Speaker 03 The horses which are referred to as wild, in the sources, they're quite often, in the late, they're called forest horses. So basically, this is either feral horses, so domestic horses which have gone wild, or more often, they're horses which are bred in the wild. So when Percival grabs a wild mare, it's most likely one of his mother's breeding horses which is out there, and that's why it's this whole, that's why it's a mare. And basically, they are managed. They are, one way how to breed horses with less cost. In the UK, we still have, you still have a new forest horse.
22:47 Speaker 03 Also, in some parts of Europe, there are programs where populations of small horses, you can call them ponies, left in natural reserves in wild parks, and then they regularly remove young male horses, colts, because if there are too many horses, not enough females, they just start fighting, and also the population will grow out of control. So basically, in this case, that's the same paradigm as we had in the Middle Ages. We have a herd which is breeding. Either they have a few stallions out there all the time, or they introduce these stallions during the breeding season, and then you remove the excess stallions.
23:31 Speaker 03 And that's why in the Middle Ages, most knights would be riding stallions. Not just because it's male pride or whatever, but because mares are quite valuable as breeding stock. If they get killed or injured, or if they're working on campaigns, they cannot produce remounts. So it's practical rather than gendered this way.
23:55 Matt Lewis? Yeah, and it sounds like lots of these horses that that aren't recorded are the ones that are really kind of quietly vital to the medieval world that, you know, we don't necessarily have records of what they were doing all day, every day, like we might have with knights, horses kind of charging into battle. But medieval society just wouldn't have functioned without these horses quietly performing that role.
24:17 Speaker 03 Yes, exactly. And as I said, courses can change their role. At the end of the Romance of the Four Sons of Amon, where you have Bayard, whom Farlemont tries to drown, but the horse escapes and he runs into the forest, who actually becomes a wild stallion, breeding probably with wild nurse, which is really cool. You can have the whole Arden Forest now full of the force of Bayard. Who knows?
25:00 Speaker 02 Hey, it's Adam Grant from TED's Rethinking Podcast. As businesses scale, success depends on how well knowledge is captured, shared, and kept up to date. Camtasia Pro turns teams' expertise into engaging training, onboarding, and documentation. No professional editing experience required. With the industry's best screen recording, video editing, and AI-powered workflows, you can train faster and boost operational efficiency. Get over $100 off your first year at camtasia pro.com and start building a smarter way to educate customers, onboard employees, and ensure valuable expertise is shared across teams.
25:34 Speaker 01 Hey, we're Nick and Jack, hosts of The Best One Yet. Behind every episode, there's research, emails, spreadsheets, and our shared Google Doc, the headline hammer. With Google Workspace with Gemini, Google's AI is built right into the premium versions of tools we already use, like Gmail, Docs, and Sheets. No new tools or extra logins, just personalized AI for the way we work.
25:53 Speaker 04 That means less time on the work or around the work, and more time finding the stories worth talking about. Get AI tools for work. Upgrade to Google Workspace with Gemini at goo.gle/workspacewithGemini. That's goo.gle/workspacewithGemini.
26:08 Speaker 05 After civil war, regicide, and Cromwell's Republic, the monarchy returned. But Britain would never be the same. I'm Professor Suzanne Ellipscombe and this month on Not Just the Tudors, we're transported back to the age of Restoration royalty, from Charles II to Queen Anne and the birth of the Empire. Join me on Not Just the Tudors from History Hit, wherever you get your podcasts.
26:52 Matt Lewis? Yeah, yeah. And I mean, this maybe is getting to the end of horses' lives, but what do people in the medieval world think about horse meat? Are horses ever used for food? Or is that a last resort when it's gone beyond its useful years?
27:11 Speaker 03 Okay, so that's a very, very interesting question. In Christian countries, there was a prohibition on eating horse meat. So theoretically, you shouldn't be eating it. There is evidence that in some cases, under siege, for example, crusaders, they're eating horses. At some point, again, Bayard should have been eaten, because everybody is starving and they're kind of eating all the horses except for Bayard. And at some point, they escape, so he doesn't get eaten. But normally, horses wouldn't be eaten. While the feral horses wouldn't be hunted for food in Europe,
27:52 Speaker 03 with some exception, of course, if the land is not Christian yet, they might be hunted. For example, we have in the Private Chronicle of Rus, there is an instance where one of the princes, who is not Christian yet, who is a savage, he said that he's eating horse meat. So probably not his horses, probably the ones which roam in the steppe, which he's hunting on the way. In Europe, there are some instances where horse meat is referenced. For example, Hildegard of Bingen writes about horse meat. She says it's clean, but it's tough, so you shouldn't really eat it. She's not evoking this religious prohibition.
28:36 Speaker 03 She says it's like not fit for human consumption. And there is one blessing from Saint Gall in Switzerland, which mentions horse meat, you bless horse meat before you eat it. But apparently, there were no wild horses at that point in Switzerland. So it might happen they just recorded it from a previous source, but it doesn't seem that they consumed horse meat or donkey meat, which Christians shouldn't be doing. Maybe the Mongols are doing that, but not Christian folks.
29:08 Matt Lewis? Yeah, it's interesting, that distinction between we shouldn't do it for religious reasons, but also they don't taste very good. They can be really tough to eat as an excuse not to eat them as well. You talk in the book as well about the different types of horses and the riding styles that Chaucer talks about in his Canterbury Tales. And it seems that the different characters are, to some extent, defined by the horse, the mount that they're riding, and the way that they're riding it. Can you tell us a little bit more about that, please?
29:38 Speaker 03 Yeah, so Chaucer's Canterbury Tales is just the best example because he has people coming from different social strata, different genders, different occupations. And he also mentions the horses they're riding. So the only mare which appears is the ploughman's mare. He's the only one who is riding a mare. Presumably, all the other horses are male horses. And the wife of Bath is my favourite because she's riding an ambler. That's an expensive horse, a comfortable horse to ride. So she knows what she's doing. And she also has spurs on her feet, which indicates she's riding astride, which was okay in the Middle Ages.
30:20 Speaker 03 A lot of women travelled riding like men when they had a long way to go. But the fact that she's got spurs means that she knows what she is doing, or at least she pretends she knows. And she's kind of this very willful woman who wants to be in control, who wants to ride your ambler the way she probably rode your husband. There is this sexual metaphor going on. And of course, your story is also about women having a choice, women having a say in governing the kingdom or man of the household and then controlling the horse.
31:02 Speaker 03 And we have, for example, the knight, who is not well dressed, but he's got a warhorse. And in the Elsemer manuscript, there is an illumination which shows that this horse has a brand mark, which might indicate that the knight has been on this particular horse on crusade, on campaign. And it's mentioned he's been crusading. And the horse may have been branded there when he was starting his service. So there is this partnership, the knight who is experienced and the warhorse, who is also experienced. Then there is his son, who doesn't have a warhorse because he's not really a warrior, he's a courtier.
31:45 Speaker 03 So he's got a horse which is fine-stepping, but not a warhorse. What else? So all of these horses, all of these animals, they are part of the rider's social status, the way these people are and the way they want to be seen. They're not necessarily the most practical beasts for travelling. An embler is definitely a good choice, but a warhorse for travelling may not be such a good choice. And the working mare, a plowman, is just a beast you have because a plowman doesn't have any other riding horse. But they are part of the rider's personality in some way.
32:28 Matt Lewis? Yeah, yeah. So almost you can say that the horse that they're riding and the way that they're riding it, their style of horsemanship, becomes a kind of social performance that Chaucer is connecting the horse that they ride and the way that they ride to a part of their personality and their status?
32:44 Speaker 03 Yes, definitely. So these are status indicators. In real life, a knight wouldn't always be riding his warhorse. A warhorse could be led from a different horse to save it from the stress. Of course, if it's a poor knight, he's got just one mount, that's a warhorse. But yeah, so it's a status indicator. It could also be indicator of the person's kind of moral character in some way. For example, we have the Romans, the quest of the Holy Grail. And at one point, Sir Percival is losing his horse. It gets killed.
33:24 Speaker 03 He requisitions, so to say, a roundsey from a servant who is passing through the forest and who is looking for his master's horse. So Persephone just gets this roundsey, rides it, promising to get the warhorse back to the servant and the roundsey as well. The roundsey gets killed, so Persephone was extremely unlucky at some point. And then he spends the night in the forest, utterly despairing. And then in the morning, a beautiful lady appears, leading a huge black horse to him. And you would question, why in the middle of a wild forest there is a lady with a black horse? Of course, he is not questioning. He's promising to do anything the lady would ask to give him the horse.
34:09 Speaker 03 The horse turns out to be the devil, which nearly kills Persephone and lands him on a desert island. So basically, this riding of this black horse, it's a metaphor of the way his soul is. It's in confusion. That's why he gets a horse which is going to get, to land him into more trouble and confusion. So it could be both social status indicator and could also be indicator of this moral process of characterizing the person in different ways.
34:45 Matt Lewis? Yeah, it's really interesting. So we've talked about horses in war, we've talked about them at work, we've talked about them in terms of of social status indicators and and measures. I wonder if you could talk to us a little bit about horses as as kind of political tools? Because you quite often see them being given as gifts to kings or to to lords who want to try and impress each other with the quality of their horses. Do we have examples of where they're used for for political ends like that?
35:16 Speaker 03 Yes, definitely. So horses could be used as gifts. And they were used as gifts not just in Europe, they were used as gifts in Asia. We have examples from the Tang Good Empire, which was a neighbor to medieval China. And the Tang Good Empire during its existence was famous for breeding good horses. Some of these horses ended up as diplomatic gifts to China where they were apparently lacking good horses.
35:49 Speaker 03 Another thing is that sometimes good horses could be found in unexpected places. So for example, we don't necessarily think of Scotland as being prominent as the land of good horses. But there is evidence that some Scottish horses, known as Galway necks or Scottish trotting horses, they were presented to Italy to magnate there as diplomatic gifts. So they were quite prized, even if we don't really know much about them, right? Because along the way, some of these horses were also rebranded as English horses.
36:34 Speaker 03 But one of my colleagues, Miriam Beebe, she's done a whole monograph and looked into evidence. And she's found that Scottish horses were quite prized and they were often regarded as suitable diplomatic gifts for rulers on the continent.
37:07 Speaker 02 Hey, it's Adam Grant from TED's Rethinking Podcast. As businesses scale, success depends on how well knowledge is captured, shared, and kept up to date. Camtasia Pro turns teams' expertise into engaging training, onboarding, and documentation. No professional editing experience required. With the industry's best screen recording, video editing, and AI-powered workflows, you can train faster and boost operational efficiency. Get over $100 off your first year at camtasia pro.com and start building a smarter way to educate customers, onboard employees, and ensure valuable expertise is shared across teams.
37:40 Speaker 01 Hey, we're Nick and Jack, hosts of The Best One Yet. Behind every episode, there's research, emails, spreadsheets, and our shared Google Doc, the headline hammer. With Google Workspace with Gemini, Google's AI is built right into the premium versions of tools we already use, like Gmail, Docs, and Sheets. No new tools or extra logins, just personalized AI for the Way we work.
37:59 Speaker 04 That means less time on the work around the work and more time finding the stories worth talking about.
38:03 Speaker 01 Get AI tools for work. Upgrade to Google Workspace with Gemini at go dot G L E slash Workspace with Gemini.
38:10 Speaker 04 That's go dot G L E slash Workspace with Gemini.
38:27 Matt Lewis? I'm sure there's plenty of Scottish people who will have something to say about the English stealing good Scottish horses and rebranding them as English.
38:34 Speaker 03 Yeah.
38:34 Matt Lewis? And what do we know about if horses are now being used as these kind of political gifts and statements? What do we know about the kind of accessories that go with those horses? So bridles, saddles, stirrups. Do they have a relationship to prestige and status too? Were people keen to have a really good saddle because it's comfortable or because it makes you look more important than you are?
38:58 Speaker 03 A well made saddle is definitely more comfortable. I can tell you that as a rider, it makes a difference. And it also makes a difference in terms of safety because a well made saddle is less likely to break. As a crucial point, which was of course very important to people in the Middle Ages. You can't just go to the store and get another one. But also the look of this equipment could have been one of the factors which determine the wealth of the value of the horse, right? For example, in Beowulf, we see Rodgar presenting horses which have ornate bridles and saddles.
39:37 Speaker 03 So you know that these are good horses, not just because they look good, but because they also have all this royal equipment on them. In another early English source, in Anglo Saxon, the Sandslides of Bishop Aiden, he gets a present from the king of a royal horse with a saddle and bridle. And of course, being a bishop and a sentiment, she immediately presents it to someone else, a burglar on the street, which makes the king angry, but the bishop has an explanation to that. You are just wondering what the burger is going to do with a royal horse. But then a bishop doesn't have much more use for a royal horse either.
40:21 Speaker 03 So equipment was also increasing the horses' value, I would say. I have a suspicion that it was one of the ways how people could value horses and put them into categories. Not just the way the horse looked and moved, but also the way it was presented. Yeah, we like shiny, blinking things. And also talking about expensive saddles, there are some examples of saddles which could look really cool and expensive, but which were uncomfortable and may not have been used as riding equipment at all. These are bone saddles which appear quite late.
41:05 Speaker 03 Fifteenth century, there are just a handful of these saddles remained from Europe. They are made entirely of bone, which is carved with all kinds of intricate designs and showing romantic adventures. And it's been supposed that these are gifts for bridal ceremonies. So the bride might have been ridden in it during the procession, or the horse might just have been led with a saddle. Then the saddle will remain in the newlywed's couple's house, but it's not a, it's not a saddle for riding. It will be extremely uncomfortable and there is no evidence that these saddles were ridden in because all the decoration will be gone.
41:47 Matt Lewis? Yeah, fascinating that they can have this performative element to them that doesn't require them to have any practical purpose whatsoever. We tend to think of horses being these practical things, but it sounds like there was so much more to them and that they could be ways to shout your status, ways to improve relations with other nobles and things like that. So the saddles and the bridles and the bits that go along with that don't necessarily have to have that. Functional element to them too, they can be entirely for display.
42:23 Speaker 03 Yes, definitely. And also, some horses could be used as, as you say, as a diplomatic gift, as a part of display and riding as well. So processions on horseback was one way to show off your wealth, to show off the way you ride and manage a horse, which was important for the nobility. And also, today, we tend to think that women were riding side saddle or sideways in the Middle Ages. Actually, most women throughout most of the Middle Ages were riding just the same way as men. But in processions, women would have been riding on the side.
43:06 Speaker 03 And it seems that towards the end of the Middle Ages, it would have gradually become a more and more acceptable way for women to ride on the side and with their beautiful dress flowing down. But up to the end of the 15th century, it was okay to ride both ways. Just if you want to be seen, if you want your dress to be seen, you would ride in finery without any hurry on with your dress flowing beautifully down. And for men, presenting a good figure on horseback is something which is also very important, in particular towards the end of the Middle Ages, when having good riding skills could be seen as a social asset.
43:49 Speaker 03 For example, Dom Duarte, the king of Portugal, she had a whole treatise written about the art of riding. And she says that a knight should look well on the saddle. It's one way how you can advance socially. And she has a whole series of advice, what you do to stay elegant, how to adjust your clothing, if your horse is bucking or misbehaving, how you stay there in the saddle and pretend that it's the way it should have been. You just wanted it to buck and yeah, just showing off your skills. It's not like you're keeping barrel in the saddle. So it's very interesting as well.
44:30 Matt Lewis? Yeah, how to style out the mistakes. As someone who works with horses, do you see a legacy of? Medieval horses today, is there an equivalence in horsemanship, in modern equestrian sports, in cultural attitudes to horses, where we can see those things left over from the medieval period today?
44:51 Speaker 03 Yes, well, first of all, we have a rebirth of interest in medieval horsemanship, for example, tournaments or jousting. Jousting became a new sport. There are several styles how you can joust. And just like it was a sport towards the end of the Middle Ages, with rules, with special equipment, with specially trained horses. So today, it's also a sport, not quite the same as in the Middle Ages. And obviously, there is more emphasis on safety. You definitely don't want to be killed or injured. But it's hugely popular, it's an international sport. Another medieval sport which was reborn is horseback archery.
45:36 Speaker 03 It's quite popular all around Asia, in Japan, in Iran and in Europe. It's been experienced a kind of rebirth which started in Hungary, where enthusiasts just recreated, the Hungarian settled the bow. And again, it's another reborn sport which now has international associations and championships, which is incredible. But also on a daily level, when working with horses, I have looked at medieval training manuals, especially one by Jordana Srofos. And basically, most of the advice he's making there is applicable today.
46:21 Speaker 03 And I have even trained two horses using his advice. Actually, not all of it, because some of it, for different reasons, wasn't applicable in my circumstances. But the main idea is that you should take care of your horse, treat it ethical, treat it gently. Don't scare it, don't shout at it, don't hit it, especially if it's a young horse, because you want trust.
46:49 Speaker 03 And that's timeless advice, which would be useful in any sport to any rider. You want a horse who is your companion. You don't want to hit, you don't want it to be scared. Truth is very sophisticated here. He's saying that if your horse gets scared from something and you start hitting it, then it will associate the thing which scared it with the pain and with additional stress which it is. And will eventually will be even more scared of this. And when the person who's who's been living in the 13th century and he already knew this things which
47:31 Speaker 03 today you can have horse statologists and horse behaviorists and they're still talking about the same thing. So basically, good horsemanship is timeless.
47:41 Matt Lewis? Yeah, yeah, it's something that we we learnt a long, long time ago, which I guess, again, talks to the close connection that's always existed between humans and their horses, whatever that horse might happen to be used for. And I wanted to finish on if if there is ever a horse that you've come across in any of your research that that has made you think, I wish I'd met that horse. I wish I got to ride that horse or work with that horse.
48:07 Speaker 03 Okay, so I think Bussephalus is not, I wish I had met this horse, but I've met several horses and worked with them, which are very similar because at the beginning, Bussephalus is afraid of his shadow and Alexander notices it and covers its head. And I've actually met horses which are afraid of their own shadows, not many, just two of them, and they can be quite easily retrained. But also the very fact that it's a difficult horse from the start, nobody can handle it. I've worked with horses which are very difficult to start with and eventually they made the best horses ever. So if I ever met a horse who is like hard to start with,
48:51 Speaker 03 I always say, okay, this will be your best horse. If you handle it carefully and gently, go through every step many, many times, this will be definitely your horse. And so in medieval romance, there are lots of horses which are modeled on Bussephalus, which are presented as being.
49:14 Speaker 03 Somewhat difficult, but also once you find a way to treat them, they will be your, the best companions you have ever had. So, and also Busufalo starts off as a wild horse. A wild horse which becomes your friend. Yeah, I wish there could be more horses like this.
49:34 Matt Lewis? Yeah, yeah, that must be a really rewarding experience for you too, when you you find a horse that is difficult to work with, is scared or anything like that, and then you you manage to work with it to to free it from that fear and and become really, really close to the horse. That must be so rewarding for you.
49:52 Speaker 03 Yes, definitely. So I work with horses on an everyday basis. And when I started reading medieval romance and other texts, Hippatic treatises, a lot of things I found there, it just matched what I, as a horse trainer, as a horse practitioner, have encountered in my life. I was just amazed how much of this new research into horses and new discoveries, they actually match what people in the Middle Ages knew about it. In particular, I wanted to mention the books by Anne Highland, who was a horse historian, but also a horse trainer. And one of your books about training your young horse from like from birth to the age
50:34 Speaker 03 of five, a lot of things there seem to have been informed by medieval materials. So I'm wondering, and as Anne Highland was actually a historian, she might have been influenced, not by what she learned as a horse trainer, but also what she learned from medieval sources. So of course, we cannot know this. The only way would be to ask her. But it's very interesting how these things, they are repeated.
51:01 Matt Lewis? Yeah, yeah, fascinating. Well, it's been wonderful to get a little bit closer to these magnificent animals and the the close bond that they always seem to have had with with humans and the way that they have worked together over the centuries and perhaps millennia to the benefit of of human beings. It's been fascinating to get to learn a little bit more about them. Thank you very much for joining us, Anastasia.
51:25 Speaker 03 Thank you very much, Matt. It was a pleasure and an honour speaking with you about it.
51:31 Matt Lewis? I hope you've enjoyed this episode. If you'd like to learn more about the research about medieval war horses, you can find an episode in our back catalogue detailing the findings of that and why war horses aren't quite what we've been led to believe they were. There are new installments of Gone Medieval every Tuesday and Friday, so please come back and join Eleanor and I for more from the greatest millennium in human history. Don't forget to also subscribe or follow us on Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts and tell all of your friends and family that you've gone medieval. You can sign up to History Hit to access hundreds of hours of original documentaries with a new release every week and also get all of History Hit's podcasts ad free.
52:12 Matt Lewis? Head over to historyhit.com/subscribe right now. Right now. Anyway, I'd better let you go. I've been Matt Lewis and we've just Gone Medieval with History Hit.
52:44 Speaker 02 Hey, it's Adam Grant from TED's Rethinking Podcast. As businesses scale, success depends on how well knowledge is captured, shared and kept up to date. Camtasia Pro turns teams' expertise into engaging training, onboarding and documentation. No professional editing experience required. With the industry's best screen recording, video editing and AI-powered workflows, you can train faster and boost operational efficiency. Get over $100 off your first year at camtasia pro.com and start building a smarter way to educate customers, onboard employees and ensure valuable expertise is shared across teams.
53:18 Speaker 01 Hey, we're Nick and Jack, hosts of The Best One Yet. Behind every episode, there's research, emails, spreadsheets and our shared Google Doc, the headline hammer. With Google Workspace with Gemini, Google's AI is built right into the premium versions of tools we already use, like Gmail, Docs and Sheets. No new tools or extra logins, just personalised AI for the way we work.
53:36 Speaker 04 That means less time on the work around the work and more time finding the stories worth talking about.
53:41 Speaker 01 Get AI tools for work. Upgrade to Google Workspace with Gemini at goo.gle/workspacewithGemini.
53:47 Speaker 04 That's goo.gle/workspacewithGemini.
Previous How to win a Medieval Battle Next Saladin: Crusher of the Crusades Page updated October 31, 2026 · transcript and summary are machine-generated