250: Kevin Franke: “This is A Story of Love” | Is He Still Protecting Ruby Franke?!

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Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Annie Elise?

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• 0:31Speaker 01

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• 1:57Speaker 04

  Some days parenting requires uncomfortable conversations.

• 2:02Speaker 05

  But a disturbing reality was revealed after Ruby's youngest son escaped in August of 2023. This chilling 911 call leading to her arrest.

• 2:13Speaker 06

  I just had a 12-year-old boy show up here at my front door asking for help. He's emaciated, he's got tape around his legs.

• 2:23Speaker 03

  My wife, Ruby,'s sole ambition was to be seen as the perfect mom.

• 2:28Speaker 05

  Frankie's estranged husband Kevin and oldest son Chad now opening up in a new Hulu docu-series, Devil in the Family: The Fall of Ruby Frankie.

• 2:39Annie Elise?

  Hey, true crime besties, welcome back to an all-new episode of Serialist Lee.

• 3:03Annie Elise?

  Hey, everybody, welcome back to an all-new episode of Serialist Lee with me, Annie Elise. Now, as I'm sure a lot of you probably already know, especially the ones who have been following this case for years now, a new three-part docu-series titled Devil in the Family: The Fall of Ruby Franke was recently released on Hulu. I also did an episode a couple of weeks back where I did a deep dive into this, where we talked all about, you know, the documentary, still some things that the documentary didn't show, just the overall story of Ruby Franke and Jodi Hildebrandt. And I would say that this documentary wasn't necessarily a look into anything super new or anything revolutionary or groundbreaking, nothing that really wasn't already known before,

• 3:46Annie Elise?

  but it was definitely now a new look into certain perspectives. And what I mean by that is certain perspectives that maybe we haven't heard much of up until this point. And although there were a few interviews in this documentary, such as interviews from neighbors, police officers, and so forth, the main focus was really on the children. The main focus was on... Sherry, Chad, Kevin, and Chad and Kevin, Chad the son and Kevin being the father, they really were at the forefront of this. Within the first few minutes of the very first episode, we hear a background voice stating that ever since the arrests, Kevin has been trying to clear his name. And when he said that, that really got me thinking because Kevin Franke is an extremely polarizing topic. We all know this.

• 4:31Annie Elise?

  I think we can all agree on this, especially if you've been following the case. Most people either feel very sorry for him and their hearts are, you know, bleeding for him because they see him as a victim in all of this and they feel like he was just as much a victim as the children. But then others can't stand him and others think that he should have been punished because not only was he an active participant in what I believe to be like the crescendo of all of the allegations and what they were convicted of, but he stood, he enabled it. He stood right alongside his wife and he thought that those methods were okay. He co-signed them. He enabled her. He was right there. So now that he's coming in after the fact, after Ruby and Jody have been charged, it just doesn't really sit right with me.

• 5:16Annie Elise?

  Because it's like, okay, now that they've been charged and convicted, you're sweeping in and saying, oh, I love Ruby, but I'm so glad she's not here anymore. The kids are laughing again. They're smiling again. I just want custody of them. I'm going to fight for custody, as though you're their savior. When, no, bro, actually, you participated. You were a willing participant in this for years and you co-signed her. You enabled her all the way up until when Ruby was arrested and one of the children went to go get passports, hard drives and things from the house to seize and give to the police. He tried to actually file charges against his own child for, I don't remember if it was burglary, robbery, or something within that realm, because they were trying to take that because they were going against Ruby.

• 6:01Annie Elise?

  So like now for you to come out and be like, oh yeah, the kids are just so much happier now with me and we're rebuilding and this and that. Just because you weren't there when the arrest went down, does not, in my opinion, make you any less responsible. So my point in this follow-up episode. It's gonna be all about Kevin and we are gonna drag his ass because I want to show the clear contradictions from what he is saying now to what his behavior, his documented behavior was in the past and how he truly did enable this. He co-signed it, but now he's backpedaling and acting as though he's the children's savior because he doesn't, of course, want to be thrown in prison like Ruby and Jody. But it's disgusting. And I

• 6:44Annie Elise?

  know there, like I said, a lot of different opinions about Kevin. This is my opinion. I'm sure you have your own as well. But I want to dive into Kevin a little bit deeper and I want to talk about all of his questionable life choices. And I also want to talk about his involvement with the Eight Passengers YouTube channel, that channel that Ruby had started that was their rise to fame, millions of dollars, millions of subscribers, all while exploiting their children, humiliating their children, and also then even abusing their children. So we are going to talk about all of that. We're going to talk about his connection with connections, the frickin' alleged cult. I'm gonna say alleged, but hello if it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck. It's a frickin' cult. And his

• 7:28Annie Elise?

  connection with connections and how he co-signed that as well and thought Jody was great too and practiced the principles and all of those other things. And we're gonna talk about then his absence when everything escalated with Ruby and Jody and what he was doing. Why were you away from your kids for a year, especially knowing the kind of conflict and the kind of methods and punishing methods? And it's just, how can you even call yourself a father, honestly? And I'm sorry, but if you're a Kevin Franke stan, this episode probably isn't for you because we are here today to drag him.

• 8:02Speaker 04

  Parenting does not take a break. So the reason why Eve did not go skiing with us was because she left her ski coat at school. And over the Christmas break before New Year's, they took everything from the lost and found and took it.

• 8:24Speaker 04

  To donate. And Eve said, well, that's okay. Just, I just, just buy me a new one. Just buy me a new ski coat. I said, that is a very entitled attitude. And that is not how we work around here. If you lost your ski coat, you lost your privilege to go skiing.

• 8:40Annie Elise?

  Now, although this episode is going to be strictly Kevin based, I will bring up a couple of points regarding other family members and other dynamics, just because it helps illustrate the to, uh, the story as a whole, just so that, you know, it's not super disjointed and you can understand where we're going. Now, of course, Kevin, he was his own person before ever meeting Ruby. But for the purpose of this video, I really want to start with when he and Ruby first met because truthfully, that's when all of this started. So let's jump right in. If you've read their daughter Sheri's book, or even listened to the episode that I did covering this book, you know that Sheri had a lot to say about her parents' relationship. She described that her mother Ruby, in her opinion, was just way more hyper focused on finding a man,

• 9:24Annie Elise?

  a man who checked all of the right boxes, all of her personal boxes, rather than actually genuinely looking for true love. She literally had a checklist of all of these things that had to be checked off in order for her to find her potential partner, you know? Were they willing to get married? Check. Would they be open to having as many children as she ever dreamed of? Check. Were they close to God? Were they in the LDS faith? Check, check, check. I mean, a literal checks and balances. Now Kevin himself really validated all of this in that documentary, but he also kind of had this whole new behind the scenes type look into it, if you will. He claimed that when it came time to winning Ruby and then standing out against all of these other potential suitors, that he cheated, that he rigged the game, that he

• 10:09Annie Elise?

  thought it was some type of board game, or I don't know, some kind of competition, and that he cheated so that he would come out on top. See, apparently Ruby had this handwritten poster that was hidden in her closet and this poster had columns of all of the different men that she was talking to or the people that she was dating. And their names were all written down horizontally at the top and then vertically down the side, she wrote everything that she was looking for in a husband. Just again, all of her checkboxes and checks and balances. And then as each man checked off those boxes, she would just fill them in, basically keeping track of who was doing what, which. Look, everybody does their own methods, whether you're online dating, whether you're in-person dating, whether you want to have a freaking pros and cons list, a Venn diagram,

• 10:51Annie Elise?

  whatever it is, this to me, doesn't exactly read authentic love, but, you know, who am I to judge? Maybe I need to make a diorama or something. So as Kevin is talking about all of this, he even claimed that somehow he saw this poster, and that he studied it, that he memorized this poster like it was life or death, pretty much molding himself into this perfect person that Ruby had been looking for her whole life. Red flag, okay? First of all, mega red flag. Like, how about, what's that song? Be yourself, be yourself, be yourself. Like, this guy, he's crafting himself into who he thinks Ruby, not even who he thinks, but who Ruby wants as a partner. Now, not only is that a red flag because

• 11:35Annie Elise?

  you're changing yourself, but it's a huge red flag because it's showing you are fixated on Ruby. You are willing to change yourself, change your personality, change your hobbies, your dreams, your aspirations, everything, so that you can be with Ruby, which, case in point, look where it got us. You allowed and participated and endorsed and cosigned and all of these things that Ruby wanted to do that were dangerous to your own flesh and blood, all because Ruby was endgame. She was the goal. You wanted her no matter what, and you were willing to, quite frankly, do anything. You were willing to do anything to your own children to be with Ruby. So this moment where he's trying to be this yes man for Ruby, it really does end up being this huge foreshadowing moment of seemingly

• 12:19Annie Elise?

  their entire adult lives together. So of course, he's checking off all of these boxes. So they quickly get engaged, they get married, and then right away, they start having children. And something that I think is really important to note here from this documentary itself, is that it seems like there are still a lot of varying feelings from Kevin, Chad, and Sherry when it comes to Ruby. Specifically, when it comes to the old Ruby, and then the, hypothetically speaking, new version of Ruby, where she turned into this awful evil person. A lot of people on the outside looking in, think that maybe it was you two. And maybe it was the fame and the money that began to corrupt Ruby. While some people think that it was when she got involved with Jodi and with all of Jodi's insane teachings. But what's interesting is that even her family members, the people who were around Ruby

• 13:04Annie Elise?

  the most, cannot really agree on one specific thing. And to be fair, each person's feelings are valid. It could be either one of those things. So it's their own version of events and really their own truth. Now Sherri's feelings are very clear cut. She has always believed that Ruby was not a good person or a good mother, not at all. And her earliest memories of Ruby are even of her yelling at her and smacking her. When I was younger, around like five, six, like Ruby was really physical. Like, you know, whether it was like a slap to the lip or slap to the cheek. When I would practice the piano, you know, like her hand would slam and like it was really scary. She even specifically said in this documentary that she believes that Jodi only set off

• 13:48Annie Elise?

  the things that were already deeply rooted inside Ruby's heart. Which I kind of imagine that almost as like a ticking time bomb, that it's just been years, just somebody, something waiting and waiting for something to come along and just set it off. And that's how Sherri describes it. Then there's Ruby's son Chad. And it seems like maybe he still holds some kind of soft spot for her deep down. You can tell that he seemed slightly more wary than Sherri. I mean, just not quite as angry or resentful as her. He mentioned in the first episode that Ruby, quote, "was always a good mom until she just kinda wasn't." Which is clearly very different than from what Sherri had felt. She felt like Ruby was born and bred evil. Now, of course, Chad did get into the rougher times where their relationship was strained,

• 14:33Annie Elise?

  but it seems like he didn't even really start to have those negative feelings toward his mom until her YouTube became a full-time job and really the priority in the home. That took the focus over everything. It was YouTube or nothing. And it's almost as though every decision she made was reliant on what the outcome was going to be with YouTube. So that's when he started feeling like his life was scripted and like he just was never in control of anything. And that's also when he started acting out, both at school and at home. And then lastly, there's good ol' Kevin. Because he's a lot harder to read, as you will see and hear in this video. Because it really does seem like he's always choosing his words very carefully, very crafted,

• 15:14Annie Elise?

  whenever it comes to, you know, bashing, or I guess not bashing Ruby. And it's almost like he always has Ruby still in the back of his mind. Still, how's she gonna respond to this? Am I saying too much? Once she gets released, will she be with me if I speak too freely? Something like that. And again, this is strictly my take on things, based on what I'm seeing and what I know so deeply about the case, so maybe I'm totally wrong. You tell me if you come to that same conclusion. So this sort of leads us to the creation of the Eight Passengers YouTube channel. Because Kevin claimed that when Ruby first started picking up the camera and documenting every single thing in their house, in their lives, and turning it into content, that he was really uncomfortable with it. But what's crazy is, he wasn't uncomfortable because she was documenting the private moments,

• 15:58Annie Elise?

  like a child getting their period, or a child being punished, or a child having their door ripped off their hinges. No, he wasn't uncomfortable with the children's faces being shown, or all of their personal moments, and thoughts and behaviors being exploited. He was just uncomfortable because he said it was, quote, awkward for him. Oh, I'm sorry, I'm sorry it was awkward for you, Kevin. I'm sorry that it was awkward for you. So Ruby could put on this mask, honestly, kind of like a trained actress, where she knew the lines that she wanted everyone in her house to say. She knew where she wanted them to all be standing, she knew how she wanted them to be dressed, how they should act. But Kevin, he said, you know, "For me, it was difficult, because I'm not a natural at that. I'm not, I'm not able to have that vision." At least not in the way that Ruby was.

• 16:43Annie Elise?

  He says that he would forget his lines, he would forget when he was supposed to interject in conversations and jump in the scene, and that he just couldn't quite figure it out. He says, "Even the times where I did remember that I needed to jump in the scene and say something, it just sounded too scripted. It sounded fake. It wasn't like a natural flow in the conversation." Yet, he still sat next to Ruby, just smiling for the camera, trying to do whatever it was she wanted. Which, again, this just ties back into that poster that was inside Ruby's closet. He knew what she wanted. He molded himself to fit it. No questions asked. He was going to do whatever Ruby wanted. Now, interestingly enough, Kevin admitted during the first episode of this series

• 17:24Annie Elise?

  that after he saw the paychecks that were coming in and that they were increasingly getting bigger and bigger, he just wanted more. He was, saw green. All he saw was money in his eyes. He just wanted more of that. Now, their first check was only around eighty-five dollars. But month after month, those numbers just started doubling, then tripling, then quadrupling, and then I don't even know what the next word is, but you know what I mean, just snowballing and just getting bigger and bigger and bigger. And he then says that sometimes they would bring in as much as six figures a month. Can you imagine? Six figures a month? That is what some people don't even earn in a year, yet they were earning that monthly. So at this point, it's like greed just is tunnel vision and it's like,

• 18:09Annie Elise?

  we don't care about our kids. We don't care about anything. We need to keep churning out this content because now there's no glass ceiling and we can earn as much as we can possibly make by however much content we put out.

• 18:21Speaker 04

  I haven't decided yet.

• 18:23Speaker 03

  We are live!

• 18:27Speaker 04

  Hi guys!

• 18:28Speaker 03

  Hi guys!

• 18:28Speaker 04

  Looks like you just got out of bed.

• 18:30Speaker 03

  Russell just came out of bed to join us. Russell's supposed to be in bed.

• 18:34Speaker 04

  Russell! Alright, jump up here by daddy.

• 18:38Speaker 03

  Come up here. Does it, does it flip it like this?

• 18:42Speaker 04

  No.

• 18:42Speaker 03

  No!

• 18:43Speaker 04

  I don't think so.

• 18:44Speaker 03

  Okay, well, we'll just make do. So we're almost all here, except for

• 18:49Speaker 04

  Eve!

• 18:49Speaker 03

  Evie!

• 18:50Speaker 04

  She's asleep.

• 18:51Speaker 03

  Eve's asleep.

• 18:54Speaker 03

  So, we're excited to have another live YouTube session. So we're gonna just shout out and say hi to a few folks as you hop on, so Hey Lexi! Hey Candace Skinner! Welcome to the session. It's a lot of fun.

• 19:08Annie Elise?

  So just like that, he completely changed his tune. And now that he saw the money and the amount of money that they had the potential to earn, he went from being, you know, slightly annoyed that Ruby had a camera out and was documenting every single moment, every single interaction, to now making sure that they always caught every single thing that they could on camera and that they could always interject it into their latest vlog.

• 19:36Speaker 07

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• 20:43Annie Elise?

  There was another moment in this documentary where I kind of scratched my head almost because Kevin never says or admits that they shouldn't have exploited their kids online for money. He never really even says that he believes what they were doing was harmful, which it's like, how can you not come to that conclusion at this point unless you are just so beyond it dense that you can't even have a thought that's clear in your mind? But during one of the episodes, he even had the freaking audacity to bring up the fact that if there was anything to do with Chad in the episode, or Chad in the thumbnail, or the video title, that that would perform better when it came to views. And that is sick, because that tells me that they were watching the analytics, they were gauging the performance, and they knew what child performed better over the other,

• 21:28Annie Elise?

  and then they would cherry pick that child out and exploit them even further, because they knew that that's what the audience wanted. And speaking of Chad, people would all the time, very often, comment how he was so handsome, how people wanted to marry him, how they had a crush on him. And keep in mind, Chad was a minor during all of this at the time. So it is beyond gross and just disgusting. But instead of Ruby or Kevin stepping in and seeing that these comments, this behavior, this fixation and interest on their minor son was gross or predatory, they used that knowledge to their advantage. They used that information to exploit him. In this, Kevin even mentioned that Ruby specifically exploited Chad for views.

• 22:13Annie Elise?

  And the interviewer then chimed in and asked if he felt like he had also exploited Chad in all of this, to which finally he did say, absolutely.

• 22:22Speaker 04

  Who are you texting? No one. And your girlfriend?

• 22:27Speaker 03

  Whoa, whoa, I really like you. I saw you in my dreams last night.

• 22:35Speaker 03

  I'm telling you, it's not her, it was her brother. Look, go down. She said, I'm so sorry, that was my brother.

• 22:40Speaker 04

  Did she?

• 22:41Speaker 03

  I saw you in my dreams. Oh, oh my gosh, sorry, that was my brother. What is the nature of your relationship with this individual? I mean, there's like 300 pics in here.

• 22:58Speaker 04

  Do you like her like her or do you just like her as she's your new friend?

• 23:02Speaker 03

  That is really, really messy.

• 23:05Speaker 06

  I don't know. I seen him with her and he likes her.

• 23:12Speaker 03

  Does she like you back?

• 23:14Annie Elise?

  What I will say is that something about that specific scene didn't exactly sit right with me personally. Maybe it was his tone of voice, maybe it was his facial expressions. I'm not really sure. But to me, he really just did not seem sorry for it. It did not land, it did not seem authentic to me. In my own personal opinion, it sounded very much like he was just kind of admitting like, yeah, absolutely, to almost like a business model or something so topical and surfacey, something that they had followed for years, not something as serious as the exploitation of their own son who was a minor. And this just seemed so different than the solid, open stance that Sheri takes against family vlogging. And All of the hard and amazing work that she has been doing to raise awareness about

• 23:58Annie Elise?

  how harmful it is for any family vlogging channel and just how hurtful it is to all of the kids, even pre Jody and pre all of her batshit crazy teachings. But in the documentary, Kevin just didn't say much about that topic specifically. And it made me wonder, does he regret it? Does he see what he did was wrong? Does he wish that his children were not left vulnerable and exposed to millions of people on the internet?

• 24:23Speaker 04

  Okay, so I'm pulling out the camera because Kevin is laughing his head off and he's like, "You have to film this story. You have to film it." And I'm like, "I'm in too nasty of a mood to film it." But you're saying it's worth filming?

• 24:37Speaker 03

  Oh, anyone who knows Eve has got to hear this story.

• 24:41Annie Elise?

  Now, in an effort to be as unbiased as possible and give you the full story, you know, both aligned with what I think and not, after this documentary was filmed, Kevin did end up speaking up about his thoughts and opinions on the family vlogging space. And it seems he does have some regrets and also some negative feelings towards it. So that was most recently on February 18th, 2025.

• 25:03Speaker 03

  I have three statements to read. One is my own and two are statements that were prepared and written by two of my minor children at their request. And I will be reading them verbatim to you. I'd like to also clarify that these statements went through the process of approval in the juvenile court and the judge agreed that these statements could and should be read to this committee. My name is Kevin Franke. I am the father of Sherry Frankie and the former husband of Ruby Franke. I am a former family vlogger who is intimately familiar with the world of family content creation on social media.

• 25:47Speaker 03

  I have my own story and journey to share when I'm ready, but obviously now is neither the time nor the place to do that. Today, I want to be direct and clear. Vlogging my family, putting my children into public social media was wrong and I regret it every day.

• 26:08Speaker 03

  Children cannot give informed consent to be filmed on social media, period. If we as adults cannot understand the emotional and psychological impacts of sharing our lives to millions of strangers online, how can we expect our children to understand them? Few, if any, legal protections currently exist for those children, and I believe it's time to change that. I support Representative Owens's bill, and I believe it to be a great first step towards protecting child influencers here in the state of Utah. And there is much more to do in the future.

• 26:44Annie Elise?

  Now, that video alone is probably going to have a lot of different opinions, and I'm honestly curious to know your thoughts on this. Do you feel like it was too little, too late, or that he's only sorry because he's been caught? Do you think that he is now trying to save a face because he knows that the public probably is not going to receive what he was peddling before so warmly? Or do you stand more on the side of better late than never? Like, I'm glad he finally figured it out. We're all capable of growing. We're all capable of educating ourselves on topics that maybe we once in the past felt strongly about. As a parent, I just don't really personally allow for that kind of grace. I think that you know when you are being a good parent or not from the get-go. I don't think that that needs to necessarily be something you should be educated on over

• 27:28Annie Elise?

  time, that you need to grow from being a parent who exploits your child and uses them for money. But maybe I'm too harsh, I don't know. I'll be honest, it's just really hard for me to ever take things that he says seriously, especially things like he said in that last clip, but then also saying things like what he says in this next clip, where it sounds like he's almost justifying the abuse.

• 27:51Speaker 03

  The things that you see that are concerning in the documentary, such as the sternness, the yelling at the kids to get them to comply, and the filming, and those kinds of things, I think a lot of people that aren't familiar with family content creation would look at that and go, "That's horrible. That's abusive." And it is abusive. But what I want people to understand is, that was not unique to our family.

• 28:18Speaker 03

  I don't know a single family content creator that did not have interactions like that with their children.

• 28:25Annie Elise?

  And I think what a lot of people have issues with when it comes to Kevin, myself included, is that just because he wasn't present during that year where Ruby was really losing her mind, starting to spiral and physically abusing the youngest two children, it doesn't mean that he wasn't there or present for other very questionable behavior and very, very questionable parenting choices. I'll go to the most well-known example, and I'm sure you're already gonna guess what it is here, but this is when Chad, their son, had his bed taken away from him.

• 28:59Speaker 06

  I was sleeping on a beanbag.

• 29:01Speaker 04

  Chad showed that he was not able to manage himself sharing a bedroom with Russell.

• 29:07Speaker 06

  So when we moved, um, the bigger room in the basement was automatically his, and I didn't have a room, but we like put one on hold for me.

• 29:17Speaker 04

  So a lot of you are like, hey, that's not fair because Chad got the bigger, the lesser bedroom and Russell got the bigger bedroom.

• 29:26Speaker 04

  Russell got the big bedroom and Chad got the smaller bedroom. And Russell's bigger bedroom also had a bathroom. But what you guys didn't know was Chad didn't get any room. He didn't, he didn't get anything. He was sleeping on the floor in the family room. And he just got the bedroom back. And it's because he's shown up consistently without bullying the kids.

• 29:48Annie Elise?

  Here's another example. When their youngest daughter would continuously go hungry at school because she would forget to pack her own lunch. As a reminder, a six-year-old child.

• 29:56Speaker 04

  I know that her teacher is uncomfortable with her being hungry and not having a lunch. And it would ease her discomfort if I came to the school with lunch. But I, I responded and just said, Eve is responsible for making her lunches in the morning. And she actually told me she did pack a lunch. So the natural outcome is she's just going to need to be hungry.

• 30:23Speaker 04

  And hopefully, hopefully, nobody gives her food and nobody steps in and gives her a lunch.

• 30:29Annie Elise?

  Now, yes, Jody was in the picture at this point, at least she was for that Chad incident. I'm not 100% sure about the lunch situation. So sure, you could argue that the weird connections ideologies and the cultish mindset was already starting to settle in and that it was starting to take root. But regardless, these were parenting moves that Kevin was still present for, that he co-signed on, he enabled, he greenlit it, like, he hadn't left the house yet. So he was okay with this behavior and that's why it enrages me that he's now trying to get a pass. In a recent interview that Chad and Kevin did with People Magazine, Kevin even actually brought up the time that Chad didn't have a bed. But instead of actually taking accountability or just simply saying like, you know, I really

• 31:13Annie Elise?

  shouldn't have allowed that, that was a big mistake in hindsight, I can't believe I ever let that happen. He just blamed the entire thing on Jody.

• 31:21Speaker 03

  As far as the, the things like sleeping on a beanbag, removing Chad from sports teams and things, all of those directives came from Jody, the licensed mental health counselor. I definitely voiced my opposition and concern and it was always flipped back on to me of saying, well, you know, this is why your children are disobedient. This is why you're having problems with your children because you just enable them all the time. You're the problem, Kevin.

• 31:55Annie Elise?

  Now, look, I don't think that anybody is denying that at some point Jody instructed him and Ruby to do these things, especially when it came to Chad, since she was technically his therapist. But the problem lies with not just jumping in, not saying, you know, this doesn't feel right, this isn't something that I'm comfortable with, with doing to my kid, this doesn't feel good, I'm not going to do this. Just because your therapist tells you to take your child's bed away, it doesn't mean that you should do it. Just like the age old saying, if somebody tells you to jump off a bridge, are you going to do it? If a therapist tells you to torture or to ridicule your child, are you going to do it? That at what point do you man up as a parent and as a man, sorry, excuse my cussing,

• 32:39Annie Elise?

  and realize like and say, no, I'm not going to do that. Like, I would never treat my child like that, especially if Kevin was so against it at the time as he claims. It's not like she was in their home pointing a gun at them, forcing them to do this. They did this of their own volition. They made these choices. They executed these horrific actions. When you become a parent, it is your duty to step up and advocate for your child, not to inflict harm on them and exploit them. And it's like, these children, in my opinion, they were failed every step of the way. Both of these parents, equally damaging. I don't care if Ruby is the one that was there for more of the physical stuff. And when that all went down, in my opinion, Kevin, he is just

• 33:22Annie Elise?

  as responsible. If you're not going to stand up and make sure that your kids are protected, and safe, and happy, and healthy, who will? Who do you expect to advocate for your child? Surely not nut job Jody. Now, when this specific incident was brought up in the documentary, Kevin described at the time, feeling persecuted for his parenting style, feeling persecuted for his religious beliefs. And his exact words to the viewers, apparently very harsh reactions to the video, were, "We saw it as an innocent religious family that's being attacked unjustly by cancel culture. And cancel culture is winning." Those were his exact words. His exact words,

• 34:01Annie Elise?

  like, "Give me a break. You're sad fishing. You are not taking accountability. You're pointing the finger at everybody else." Like, it enrages me. Now, remember, those were the things that were going on in his mind at the time. So, the interviewer even asked if he felt now that the people's reactions were justified. And his response? Sure. That's it. Not, "Yeah, you know what? They were justified. And I wish that I had listened at the time. And in hindsight, I wish I could have gone back. And I would have listened. They were right. And I should have had, but it should have been more eye opening to me. And that they were seeing something that I unfortunately at the time couldn't see or refused to see." But instead, he just says, Sure, sure, they were justified.

• 34:44Annie Elise?

  Like, like so casual, so casual, like it's not a big deal. So very similarly to the topic of family vlogging in general, my question with that is, does he actually regret any of it? Or does he just know what people want him to say? I mean, this is for each and every one of you to decide. Now, there is one more thing I want to mention about Kevin pre-leaving the house. I have a lot more to mention, but this is about Kevin before he left the house, and it really stuck out to me. At the end of the first episode, there's a very interesting conversation that is brought up about whether or not Kevin ever actually saw Ruby physically or verbally abuse any of the children in their home. And he straight up said, "I had no idea that this is what was going on in my family." That is a direct quote.

• 35:27Annie Elise?

  And I'll be honest, it's going to be a little bit hard for me to not get angry or share my opinion about that, because right after he said this, the clip then jumped to Sheri, where she says that she tried to help her brother Chad whenever he would get in trouble or whenever he got hit, and that she would try to help him as best as she could. And she said that sometimes all she knew that she could do was get him toilet paper if his nose was bleeding, and that she could just offer him comfort and be there for him. Another time, she said that she helped him clean his blood off of a wall after a very intense beating. And remember, this was all before Jody ever moved in, pre-Kevin not seeing his kids for a year. So it was well before the younger kids had apparently turned into demons who were possessed, and way before Kevin, Sheri, and Chad were all kicked out of the house.

• 36:12Annie Elise?

  So I find it pretty damn hard to believe that his oldest daughter, who is, of course, obviously much younger than him, that she remembers multiple instances of having to intervene and step in and clean blood off of the walls and blood off of her brother's face, or comfort her brother, and remembers all of these surroundings in vivid detail, yet he had no idea that any of it was going on. The math ain't mathin'. It does not equate. It doesn't make sense. He can also be heard in the background of videos where Ruby is yelling and where she's being just incredibly harsh toward her kids. Yet, he claims he had no idea that any of this was going on. Sit down right here. Go sit on the couch. Set her down on the flipping couch.

• 36:57Annie Elise?

  He was there during the times that Ruby would post parenting tips and different parenting guides that are incredibly concerning, yet he apparently had no idea that these things were going on.

• 37:08Speaker 07

  This is what love sounds like. When you see someone hurting, you acknowledge the hurt. If your kid came to you on fire, would you say, "I'm so glad you trusted me to tell me you're on fire, but if I put out the fire, that's gonna really hurt and you're gonna end up with scabs anyway, so I'm just gonna love you where you are right now." No, you, you throw them on the ground and you start rolling them. You get a blanket and you start hitting the flames. And they're gonna say, "You're hurting me, you're, you're beating me, you're controlling." It's like, "No, dear, hold still, I'm getting the fire out." That's what a loving parent does, because nobody will do it. It looks to the world crazy. And because they've never been loved before, it looks like I'm angry.

• 37:51Speaker 07

  To them, it looks like I'm controlling, it looks like I'm militant, it looks like I'm a monster, it looks like I'm mean, it looks like I'm full of hate, it looks like I'm not accepting it. Because they don't know what love looks like, or sounds like.

• 38:07Annie Elise?

  So this is something that he has seemed willing to die on that hill about.

• 38:11Speaker 03

  A lot of the physical violence that was described was, was hidden and kept from me. I didn't even know that those things happened. And I think Ruby was really careful to hide a lot of that from me.

• 38:24Annie Elise?

  Again, that's for you to decide. This is just my opinion. And maybe you really do believe that he has somehow had no idea about any of this as it was going on, and that's totally fine. Maybe I'm just more skeptical, because it just doesn't make sense to me. How could you not know? I think it's way more likely that you knew and you were a witness to this, but your bank account was growing, and so you chose to look the other way. That's my personal opinion. I think that the content was good enough, the paychecks were good enough, so why stop it? That's my opinion.

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• 40:08Annie Elise?

  So now we're caught up to when the Eight Passengers YouTube channel was created. But I want to get us to when Jodi became more heavily involved in the Frankie family dynamic. Because the documentary and even the interviews that Kevin did within this documentary really start to point to this huge shift, describing it as almost a pre and post cancellation for that Chad video. And instead of taking constructive criticism or feedback from their viewers after a lot of people saw this huge issue with how Chad was being treated, they just kind of double downed on all of this. They treated this criticism as people who just didn't understand, who didn't agree with their parenting methods and who just didn't understand that this was the right approach, although it was super harsh. Kevin included.

• 40:50Speaker 03

  There's so many culturalisms today that are being just promoted and celebrated and, you know, taught from the highest towers in every part of the land. And some of these parentingisms, these culturalisms that have contaminated parenting are things like beliefs that "It's my job to make my kids happy."

• 41:21Speaker 04

  Give them a magical childhood.

• 41:23Speaker 03

  It's my job to give my child a magical childhood. It's my job to make my children smile and laugh. It's it's my job to make my children successful. It it's my job to prevent my children from having pain, right? All of these, they they all come from the same place. And it all comes from this belief, this distorted belief that um, I can measure my worth as an individual by how I parent. And I can judge how good of a parent I am by how my children turn out.

• 42:06Speaker 03

  And there is not a a greater untruth than that. That leads to so much pain. That leads to so much resentment on the part of the parent to the child and the part of the child to the parent.

• 42:19Annie Elise?

  And instead of stepping away from Jody or lessening her therapy sessions with Chad until they could decide on a different route of treatment, Jody's involvement just increased. Chad was seeing her multiple times a week and Kevin was also at the same time attending this men's group session every week with Jody. And Ruby, of course, well, we know she was just turning in and morphing into this little like Jody Hildebrand prodigy, just terrifying, this little evil culty dictator. And these men's group sessions were just yet another time when Kevin was actively molding himself to whatever Ruby wanted. He said that Jody would praise him in front of all of the other men and that he knew that the praise would get back to Ruby. And so he loved the idea that he just wanted to be a perfect little puppy dog on his best behavior,

• 43:04Annie Elise?

  listening to Jody wagging his tail, doing everything she said because, ooh, if I do everything I say, I'll get a treat. And Jody will go tell Ruby that I was a good doggy. So I want to make sure that Ruby knows I'm a good doggy. And like, I know that that sounds so cringe and juvenile, but like, that's literally what this was. He is such a sad sack of garbage, in my opinion, like, grow a backbone, grow a ball sack, be a man. Like, this is so embarrassing and

• 43:32Annie Elise?

  It would be even more pathetic than embarrassing if it wasn't so dangerous. And what he allowed, in my opinion, to go on and go down in that house. So he said that during this time in particular, while he was doing these little, you know, men's sessions, barking at every single knee that Jody and Ruby were throwing at him, his relationship with Ruby, of course, just grew stronger. She was finally seeing him the way he always wanted her to. He was finally getting the accolades and the attention of beautiful Ruby, you know, perfect Ruby on a pedestal. The validation that he was receiving from Jody and Ruby both? That was his literal drive for attending these men's sessions and for getting more involved in connections.

• 44:16Speaker 06

  Hi, we're here at Manschool in St. George, Utah. These are two of these lovely men, Kevin just got done giving a talk about from coddle to cradle. And we're here together with about 40, 45 men who are interested in learning how to connect. And you probably don't know this, but in order to be able to connect, you have to live three principles. They are being honest, responsible, and humble. And so these men have, you know, pretty much perfected, right, guys? Perfected.

• 44:45Speaker 03

  No more problems.

• 44:46Speaker 06

  Here's the adulator, here's the denier.

• 44:47Speaker 03

  That's right, that's right.

• 44:49Speaker 06

  Living honest, responsible, and humble. That's what we're all practicing so we can have relationships of connection. So Kevin just gave this amazing talk about coddle. Will you share a little bit about what's that?

• 44:58Speaker 03

  Yeah, we focused a lot and had a great discussion with the men here about the principles of self-reliance and about responsibility and being able to not run away from responsibility, but to embrace it and to accept it. Because those responsibilities are exactly what will lead you to greater connection and happiness.

• 45:22Annie Elise?

  So he got deeper and deeper into the cult that is connections. The documentary talked a lot about how Jody and her teachings had all of the typical characteristics of a cult too, which definitely wasn't really unknown before this documentary came out, but I think we all have long suspected it was a cult. But it was nice to hear from some of the people that were on the other side of things, you know, closely working within connections as well. One member even said in the documentary that she really believed at the time that Jody was God. Feels very reminiscent of Chad Daybell, doesn't it? And Chad even said basically the exact same thing in a newer interview with Good Morning America. Looking back, I treated her as a god. And I trusted her so much and thought that she was someone that was chosen, someone that was special.

• 46:07Annie Elise?

  I mean, it's hard to not say that that is a cult through and through, especially with that kind of information. Jody was incredibly convincing. She made you feel like you were doing the right thing and she encouraged you to isolate yourself from anybody who didn't agree with the teachings or those way. Because, you know, as Scientologists say, I think it's you're a suppressed being. She said that you are living in distortion or in untruth or whatever she said. It's like this perfect cult-like mentality concoction, just the perfect recipe to isolate somebody and to cut them off from everyone. Now skipping ahead a little bit, I want to talk about the moment that Kevin decided to leave because this is another really huge part in this entire story. We're already familiar with all the things that happened in between, right?

• 46:52Annie Elise?

  Jody got possessed, she moved in with them, Ruby started sleeping with Jody to apparently keep the demons away. She would come out of the room, you know, under a love spell, candles lit, sweaty, hair a mess, just, you know, awful. And I'm going to use my words really carefully here, but me saying that he decided to leave is pretty purposeful. He did choose to leave. Yes, Ruby told him he needed to pack his bags, he needed to go, he needed to get out, but he's an adult. He's the husband, he's the father, he had free will. At any moment, he could have said, "Ruby, you're insane if you think that I'm going to move out of this house that we bought together. You're insane if you think I'm going to leave the children. You're insane if you think I'm going to stop talking to them."

• 47:32Annie Elise?

  He could have decided that it was the last straw and that he was going to be done with them and actually be a parent, but he didn't. He chose not to. He chose, once again, wag his little tail, put it between his legs, do whatever boss lady Ruby wants him to do because he always wants to be in her good graces. And I feel more sympathy for Chad and Sherry being excommunicated from the family because they were still basically kids themselves. Nothing that was happening to them or that had ever happened to them was ever of their own free will. They had no choice in who their parents were. They weren't able to just be like, screw this, this is crazy, I'm out. They didn't have the same luxuries that Kevin did. And Kevin was the adult. He should have made those decisions. Tough decisions? Sure. It wouldn't be very tough for me, but let's chalk it up to, okay, maybe it was a tough

• 48:17Annie Elise?

  decision to make. That is what you have to do when you are a grown up Kevin. You have to make the tough decisions to protect your children. So Kevin had the choice, and he made his choice. He did what Ruby said, and this is despite a very heartbreaking moment, which he described, where one of his younger children was sobbing in his arms, hugging him, pleading with their eyes, because they were fearful that if they used their words and verbalized their fear that they would get in trouble. So sobbing and pleading with their eyes not to do this, not to leave them. And he left anyway. Even when he was out of Ruby's watchful eye and now living on his own, he still chose to ignore Sheri and Chad, who he knew were out on their own as well. It wasn't like they were locked up

• 48:59Annie Elise?

  with Ruby and he couldn't contact them. He just chose not to. When Sheri tried to talk to him, and when she tried to reach out, he blocked her with seemingly no second thoughts, no remorse, no question about it, just, uh, blocked, blocking my own kids. And that's not even under the direction of Ruby anymore. That is a independent choice that he made. Now, I know I sound like a broken record, and I need to like, get it together, but I cannot even just for a second, imagine putting myself in Kevin's shoes and doing the things that he did. It is baffling to me. And I'm not the most perfect person in the world. Trust me, I'm not. But the idea of blocking one of my children when they're trying to get in touch with me, and not talk to them, not reach out, not make

• 49:41Annie Elise?

  sure they're okay, it makes me sick to my stomach. His children were excommunicated from their family, alone in the world, lost, scared, trying to figure out who loved them, who cared about them, who was there to help them, and he blocked her. It makes me sick. So Kevin mentioned in the documentary that even though he was sad about this, and even though he didn't quote, "love the idea of it," he did it because he was terrified of Ruby asking for a divorce. So once again, you will cut off your children because you're scared of Ruby, because you don't want precious Ruby to not be in love with you anymore. It's like you are the biggest twerpy, nothing, bag of just garbage in the world.

• 50:26Annie Elise?

  Like, again, I've said it before, grow a backbone. Like, you're so embarrassing. It's so embarrassing and pathetic. He just completely put his trust in Ruby and Jody. And those are words that have come from his own deadbeat mouth. How could you have left your family?

• 50:41Speaker 03

  The bottom line is that I was choosing to trust a licensed professional mental health counselor and my wife. And they gave some terrible counsel.

• 50:57Annie Elise?

  Again, molding himself to who Ruby wanted him to be. She didn't want him to be the husband who questioned her authority or undermined her rules and her boundaries. She didn't want him to have his own feelings or opinions on how they parented, how they shared their children. She wanted a husband who obeyed her. So he just did that. He became that. Now, obviously, I think it's clear where my feelings lie with all of this, but I am trying to be as fair as possible. So there was a moment in the documentary that Kevin did admit that he does feel guilty for leaving his kids behind like that because he knows that he was, as in his words, he said, quote, "their last line of defense." Which, am I glad that he admitted to that? And hopefully truly does feel that way? Of course. Does that kind of seem like the bare minimum in the grand scheme of things

• 51:42Annie Elise?

  when you find out that you could have avoided and saved your children from being literally starved, duct taped, and chained to walls because they were, quote, "demons" in your wife's eyes? I don't really know about that. Towards the end of the documentary, there was a point when Kevin talked about the moment that his eyes were finally opened to the fact that he was in a cold, that he had been brainwashed, and that what happened to his kids really actually happened. And I want to go over that quickly because it leads into something to this day that has stuck with me and has been one of my bigger issues that I take up with Kevin. Sometime after Ruby and Jody's arrest, Chad and Kevin had apparently began texting back and forth. Chad had basically reached out saying he saw the news, he was confused, he didn't

• 52:24Annie Elise?

  know who to talk to, he was trying to get some clarity as to what was going on. So Kevin told him that he was gonna go over to the house that following day to check things out and for Chad to meet him there so that they could talk. Now, even though I don't know the exact day that this happened, it was after the arrests, and that is key. This was after Kevin had heard the conditions that his kids were living in and all of the things that they had faced. It was after he had full knowledge of the situation. And he describes that before he stepped foot into that house, he didn't really believe any of it. Just like when people were commenting about Chad and all of those things, he felt like the police were setting him up, or that it was all fake, or it was orchestrated, or whatever. But he claimed that when he saw that the house was a complete mess inside, the gears in his brain started turning.

• 53:09Annie Elise?

  He was slowly realizing, walking room to room, that none of that correlated with the Ruby that he was picturing in his mind. Then, one of the neighbors, a couple that they had come to know and like since living in that neighborhood, they came over. And they ended up staying up with Kevin for six hours, answering any and all of his questions, just giving him all of the details. So at this point, it's like he's armed with information from the neighbors, he's seeing the house, he's hearing from the police, different things. He has a full, comprehensive picture of what was going on in that house and just how bad this had become. These neighbors even described what the kids were like after he left. They told him about all of the times that they called CPS when the kids were seen in the window, seemingly left home alone for days on end.

• 53:53Annie Elise?

  And it again was apparently after talking with them that he had this great revelation of everything. However, let's not forget what happened two days after Ruby's arrest. Because Sheri had gone back into the home and she had taken a bunch of electronics. She took passports, electronics, but when Kevin found out about this, he tried to have Sheri arrested for burglary. According to the incident report, Sheri had taken three tablets, three cellphones, three cameras, written journals from the family members, and three passports. Now, I've always held the belief that Sheri was probably doing this to protect her siblings. I truly believe that. She is the only- only one who has denounced what Ruby has done from basically the get go.

• 54:34Annie Elise?

  So I think that she was probably terrified that Kevin hadn't changed and that she knew deep down that he would probably do whatever it took to protect Ruby. Hiding these tablets, hiding the hard drives, hiding passports, whatever it may be. Maybe she was worried that he was even going to wipe the devices of any possible evidence of abuse throughout the years. I don't know. But despite everything that Sheri went through, she always had her siblings' best interest in mind. And at the end of the day, all she wanted to do was prove that they were never truly safe in Ruby's care. Kevin, on the other hand, had only proved to her time and time again that he would follow Ruby's requests, no matter what they were, no questions asked. It was Ruby, Ruby, Ruby. So Sheri did end up having to return all of that property, but no charges were ever brought against her.

• 55:18Annie Elise?

  And watching the body cam footage of Kevin angry that his daughter wasn't going to get arrested, no. No. No charges were ever brought against her, which good, there shouldn't have been charges. He never should have tried to have her arrested for burglary. She was trying to help her siblings, the kids that he never did help, even despite having a full picture of what had happened to them, which, again, makes me question how authentic he's being now with his remorse and, you know, trying to say he wants all of the kids in his custody. I think it's more of a saving face thing and I think it's because he thinks it will make Ruby happy. And I say this because watching the body cam footage of Kevin getting angry that his

• 56:00Annie Elise?

  daughter Sheri wasn't going to get arrested, to this day, this footage still makes me angry. There you go.

• 56:19Annie Elise?

  Is it all there?

• 56:24Speaker 03

  Explain to me again why this was not robbery?

• 56:27Annie Elise?

  Because it's a civil issue. It's, you guys are family, she's been in the house before, you haven't been in the house in a year. She had interest in the items, she didn't take them with the intention to deprive you of them. So theft, that's the theft code. We have to prove intent to deprive you of the items. And that wasn't her intent in having them, so. The detective sergeant said that we're not gonna charge her for anything.

• 56:59Annie Elise?

  You can do that. You can follow up with the detective yourself.

• 57:03Annie Elise?

  Yeah, he'll be here on Tuesday. His name's Sergeant McCoy. I feel like I'm gonna get mad all over again. She is your daughter. She's the only one in your family who is trying to protect your children.

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• 57:53Annie Elise?

  So my biggest unanswered question is that I really am curious when this, you know, no pun intended, when this come-to-Jesus moment happened for Kevin. Because if he's claiming the day after the arrest that he realized his wrongdoings, but then the following day, he was still actively trying to protect Ruby and was yet again choosing her over his own children, then I'm calling bullshit. I'm calling bullshit on the entire story. Or maybe the incident with Sheri happened, and then a day or two later, Kevin had this come-to-Jesus moment and realized all of his wrongdoings. I don't really know. It would make a lot more sense, I guess, if that were the timeline, but it's, of course, not something that is being talked about or publicized. But it's something that's been stuck in my mind for the last year or so, and it isn't leaving anytime soon.

• 58:38Annie Elise?

  Regardless of the timeline, though, this specific incident has always been a massive red flag to me because it is such a raw moment that clearly shows Kevin's feelings post-arrest. No matter what day it ended up being, it doesn't matter to me. It's post-arrest, and you are still choosing Ruby over your children. It's also a moment when all of those excuses of not knowing what was going on in the house, not knowing how they were being treated, you know, not knowing what was going on while you were out of the house for a year, all those excuses evaporate in my mind because now you do know. You do know what was going on, and you're still choosing the wrong road ahead. You're like, you're still choosing to protect Ruby. So there's not a whole lot for him to lean back on.

• 59:19Annie Elise?

  He was made aware in graphic detail of why Ruby was arrested and why he couldn't just pick up the kids and go home. But he was still seemingly protecting her, even when he was told that his son was found emaciated. He still was protecting her. The contrast in general between Sheri and Kevin is one that has to be noted because Sheri didn't care what crap Jody was spitting and spewing. She didn't care that Ruby told her not to contact any of her family members. She was working with the neighbors constantly just to get an idea of how her siblings were doing. She was calling CPS time and time again. She was trying to get in contact with both Kevin, with Chad, hoping that they would feel the same way that she felt, that they needed to intervene and help the rest of the kids. But she was blocked by her own dad.

• 1:00:04Annie Elise?

  She was in the exact same situation that Kevin had been. She had been just as involved with Ruby and Jody. Jody was her therapist at one time, too. None of that mattered, though. She knew the difference between right and wrong, and she loved her siblings so much that she didn't care who got pissed off in the process. She was going to do the right thing. And I'm not at all saying that Kevin doesn't love his children. But why was it possible for Sheri to do all of this and not Kevin? I think maybe he does love them in some ass-backwards way, but I think he loves Ruby more. 100% I think that. And that is arguably if he loves his children authentically and genuinely at all. Kevin has even felt the need to comment on people's criticism, but it still doesn't

• 1:00:49Annie Elise?

  really answer my question.

• 1:00:50Speaker 03

  I think it's relatively easy for somebody out there who's, you know, arm-chairing this and looking at this experience going, "Well, why didn't he just do that? I would have done that." If, you know, it was day number one and Jody came to me and said, "Yeah, you know, you're selfish. You need to go into separation and repent." I would have told her to take a hike. I would have been like, "You're crazy." And I did. I did say that in the first time I was introduced to Jody's program. But you have to remember, and these individuals have to remember, that this was now, you know, I was...

• 1:01:32Speaker 03

  Two and a half years in this program now. And Jodi doesn't start from day one saying stuff like that. She gets her hooks into you and slowly begins to indoctrinate you and condition you to believe things about yourself and to willingly give power to other people because you come to believe that you yourself aren't capable of making good decisions. When that was suggested to me after all of that indoctrinating

• 1:02:12Speaker 03

  and conditioning, at the time, it seemed like, oh, you're right. Okay. But, you know, again, I understand for somebody who wasn't in it, that it would seem strange. There was that coercion and flipping it back on to me, the gaslighting, that I was like, okay, well, maybe I am wrong. Maybe this is the right way to parent.

• 1:02:41Annie Elise?

  Now, the very end of the documentary, it directly ties into Kevin's recent media presence as well as his feelings on everything that is happening in general. During the last few minutes of the series, Chad, Sheri, and Kevin are all seen separately holding what I would assume to be a producer's phone. And on this phone, it has an old video of the family where things seemed not as scripted as they normally were. It seemed more authentic. And just like in the beginning, when they all had something different to say about when Ruby changed, their reactions were all different here, too. Sheri said she doesn't care about how many times Ruby reaches out or what she even does in life. She will never talk to her again. That ship has 100% sailed for Sheri, and I applaud and commend her for that. Chad's reaction was similar,

• 1:03:26Annie Elise?

  but with a little bit more nostalgia mixed in. He said that he missed those happy times way, way back and missed having a mother figure in general. And you could tell that he knows that the Ruby that he remembers from when he was a small kid is not the same Ruby who is in jail. And then there's Kevin's reaction. And his reaction was something else because his exact words were, "The actions she did are atrocious, but I still feel a longing. I miss her. It is easy for the world to hate that woman, and so many people want me to join in that chorus, and I cannot turn off all of those other memories." Which I could say, I could lie to you and say I'm surprised and I can't believe he said something like that and had the audacity to say that, but I'm really not surprised.

• 1:04:09Annie Elise?

  It really doesn't shock me. He has 100% stood on still loving Ruby. Allegedly, though, not agreeing with her or the things that she's done, but still loving her.

• 1:04:18Speaker 03

  And I have regrets and I wish that I hadn't done those things. Do you still love her? I do. I don't think I'll ever stop loving her. Does that mean that I want to let her back into my life, let her back into my kids' lives? Absolutely not.

• 1:04:35Annie Elise?

  And I'm honestly glad that Kevin brought that up because a lot of people have this conspiracy theory that this is all just for show. People are questioning whether or not Kevin is actually being truthful when he says he doesn't want Ruby back in his life or his kids' lives. And for the sake of those poor kids, I really hope and pray to literally whatever higher power is listening, that he is telling the truth and that if she is released, he will not allow her back in their lives. Because remember, her sentence could be as little as four years. It hasn't been determined yet. So, my gut feeling, and I really hope I'm wrong, if she is released that early, which I don't think she will be, but if she is, I think he would 1,000% allow her back. I think he would bring her

• 1:05:19Annie Elise?

  back around the kids in no time at all, even if she, and let's just say, even if she was changed and saw the light and no longer was a threat, wasn't gonna hurt her children, no longer had contact with Jody, and he's like, you know, "Come back into the fold, come back into the family." I think he would do that despite whatever post-traumatic stress that inflicted or caused his children. Surely to be closely involved with her again or living under the same roof as her would be traumatic and scary, but I don't think he would even give that a second thought. I don't think he would care because if Ruby wants to be back in the house, Ruby's gonna be back in the house and he wants to do whatever he can to make her happy. Like I've mentioned in my other videos and other episodes covering the most recent

• 1:06:02Annie Elise?

  updates with this case, Sherry wrote in her book that she is working on her relationship with her dad Kevin. And I just hope for her sake that continuing her relationship with him is her moving forward and healing her, not holding her back, not trying to cater to what he needs, especially since their truths are just so much different from one another. When I was younger, around like five, six, like Ruby was really...

• 1:06:26Speaker 01

  Physical, like, you know, whether it was like a slap to the lip or slap to the cheek. When I would practice the piano, you know, like her hand would slam and like, it was really scary.

• 1:06:37Speaker 03

  Choosing to trust a licensed professional mental health counselor and my wife. And they gave some terrible counsel. And I have regrets and I wish that I hadn't done those things.

• 1:06:53Speaker 04

  Do you still love her?

• 1:06:55Speaker 03

  I do. I don't think I'll ever stop loving her. Does that mean that I want to let her back into my life, let her back into my kids' lives? Absolutely not.

• 1:07:07Speaker 04

  Guilty.

• 1:07:08Speaker 05

  Both Ruby and Jody pleaded guilty to four counts of child abuse against Ruby's two youngest children and could serve up to 30 years in prison. Kevin, recently speaking at a Utah State House hearing advocating for child protections around family blogging, reading a letter from his 11-year-old daughter.

• 1:07:26Speaker 03

  I feel like my mom used me for money.

• 1:07:29Speaker 04

  What do you want people to know?

• 1:07:30Speaker 03

  There is real danger.

• 1:07:32Annie Elise?

  I mean, I guess smacking and slapping a six-year-old and that being considered criminal, I guess it just really depends on the person you ask, as far as Kevin is concerned. I thought it was black and white, but apparently not to him.

• 1:07:45Speaker 03

  How do you make sense of all this? Of what's happened to you all? This really is a story of love. Of hope. Of family.

• 1:08:09Annie Elise?

  I'm sorry, a story of love? A story of hope? Are you out of your mind? What are you even talking about? This is not a story of love. This is nothing even coming close to a story of love. And I'm honestly just curious to hear where you guys stand on everything. Do you think that having to live with his choices is punishment enough for Kevin? Or are you somebody who feels like Kevin just got away with way too much? That he hasn't taken a shred of accountability and that he hasn't had any repercussions for his role that he played in all of this? Some people have been quick to forgive, but some of us just aren't so sure yet. Myself included here. I think that this is all performative. That is what my gut tells me. I hope I'm wrong,

• 1:08:52Annie Elise?

  but I don't believe this is genuine because his whole track record has a history of showing him choosing Ruby over everybody else, him being performative, him making these choices, being complicit, cosigning, endorsing it, enabling it. I think now he's just scared because it's public, it's out there. He doesn't want the public backlash and he doesn't want to be like tied in with Ruby and Jody because obviously they're so hated by the world. What do you think? I don't know. Are we in agreement on this or am I like on my own island over here just being like this guy is the scum of the earth and still needs to grow a sack of balls? I don't know. Let me know what you guys think. If there are any more updates in this case,

• 1:09:35Annie Elise?

  I will be sure to keep you updated, but I just, after my last episode, I had to come on here and do this because I saw there were a lot of you in the comments who have a very similar mentality about this whole situation like me when it comes to Kevin. And so I felt, you know, we, he deserves his own episode. We gotta really show all the inconsistencies and really outline it. What was his role even though now he's trying to pretend that he wasn't involved and that, you know, he didn't know what was going on. Like, no, bro, I'm gonna call your bluff and I'm gonna put it out there and I'm gonna show everybody you did know. You were complicit, you cosigned it and like you're gross. So, I don't know. Let me know what you guys think. Thank you so much for tuning into another episode of Serialistically with me. I will be back with

• 1:10:17Annie Elise?

  you very, very soon with a brand new episode. If you're not following the podcast yet, make sure you take two seconds to do that so you don't miss these updates as I drop them. And if you are watching this on YouTube, take a second, subscribe to the YouTube channel. That way you will not miss the video version of these updates. Alright, thank you guys so much for tuning in. Until the next one, say it with me. Don't join a cult, be nice, don't kill people, and definitely, definitely, definitely do not join connections. Alright, guys. Thanks so much. Bye.

• 1:11:26Speaker 02

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