#JusticeforDennis: the Gods and Casual Cruelty... KAOS Takeover w/ Christie Vogler

Join us this week for a Takeover episode with Christie Vogler of Movies We Dig and Hermes a.k.a Michaela Pangowish who get together to discuss all those gods we have come to know in Myth in Netflix's KAOS. We discuss Zeus and all his beautiful Jeff Goldblum ways, the marvels and horrors of Hera, and of course, our favourite party god, Dionysus. Submit your question for the next Q&A via email http://mythsbaby.com/questions or a voice note https://www.speakpipe.com/LTAMB. Get ad-free episodes and so, so much more, by subscribing to the Oracle Edition at patreon.com/mythsbaby http://patreon.com/mythsbaby CW/TW: far too many Greek myths involve assault. I try to provide direct warnings when there is reference to anything with overtly traumatic themes but be aware that Greek mythology regularly features assault, death, and many other potentially triggering events. Attributions and licensing information for music used in the podcast can be found here:mythsbaby.com/sources-attributions http://mythsbaby.com/sources-attributions. Learn more about Liv's next group trips https://travelbugxlivalbert.my.canva.site/ to GREECE! Application deadline is November 30 (Subject to change due to demand). Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy https://acast.com/privacy for more information.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Liv Albert?

  Hey nerds, really quick note from me. I want to tell you that we now have the applications open for the next set of listener group trips. This is us going back to the original, the trips that we have held in the past that have been so much fun, so successful, and pretty affordable in terms of wandering around Greece with a bunch of nerds. So check out the details and get your applications in at mythsbaby.com/groups.

• 0:42Speaker 01

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• 2:15Liv Albert?

  Hello, this is Let's Talk About Myths, baby.

• 2:18Speaker 03

  Hold it.

• 2:22Speaker 03

  Hey, listeners, this is Let's Talk About Myths, baby. And this is your host, Kristy Vogler, back again.

• 2:31Liv Albert?

  I am here, though, for now, for now.

• 2:33Speaker 03

  For now, yes. We're gonna kick you out a lot sooner this time, too.

• 2:37Liv Albert?

  Yeah.

• 2:39Liv Albert?

  Pop off forever. But who else is here? Who's here?

• 2:43Speaker 04

  Hi.

• 2:44Liv Albert?

  Is this Harvey's?

• 2:45Speaker 04

  I'm here, too.

• 2:46Liv Albert?

  Yeah, Michaela's here, too.

• 2:49Speaker 04

  Hello.

• 2:52Speaker 03

  Yes, I'm gonna need help shoving Liv out the door this time.

• 2:55Speaker 04

  Oh, I'm so happy to help.

• 2:57Speaker 03

  I asked for some reinforcements. I'm very glad to have you here, Michaela.

• 3:00Speaker 04

  I was given power, and now I'm gonna use it.

• 3:04Liv Albert?

  Yeah, Michaela has the power to kick me out.

• 3:09Liv Albert?

  Giving up that kind of control.

• 3:12Speaker 03

  Yes. And like, I really wanna do like a little Zeus hand flick, like, be gone, Liv.

• 3:21Speaker 03

  Which should maybe give you all a little hint about what today's discussion is about. We are doing another pop media Greek retelling, Chaos. And I'm so excited.

• 3:34Liv Albert?

  Oh, I'm so excited, too. I love it, because the context of this takeover episode is so different, which like, but also so similar, which is just to bring back to the epic takeover that Kristy did recently. But I have this, what I now understand to be what is almost certainly pathological demand avoidance, which is that once I have like 100 to 200 strangers on the internet telling me that I have to consume a piece of media, my body absolutely shuts down and it becomes utterly impossible because the pressure is so strong. And so in this case, but in this case, I have already watched episode one of Chaos, and I- Found it delightful. I rewatched it today so that we can talk about that before I kick

• 4:16Liv Albert?

  myself out. And I am excited to watch it. I'm like absolutely going to watch it. And I'm also excited that I don't have the pressure of having to talk about it unless I absolutely want to. So.

• 4:28Speaker 03

  Yeah. Yeah. And I have to say, like, I've talked about this show a bunch of times already. And, um, God, if there's not something else to talk about, I'd be amazed. Like, there's one season of this, eight episodes. There's so much to talk about. It's so good. So I'm really excited to like, get to talk to you guys about it again. And I, so I had one other clip I was gonna play really quick because a friend of the pod for both our pods is Joel Christensen. And he said something really cool from his, from your episode with him about, is it story life?

• 5:06Liv Albert?

  Story life.

• 5:07Speaker 03

  Story life. So, so this is what Joel had to say. And I'm gonna take it to heart and say, we have so much to unpack, but also interpret. So here we go.

• 5:16Speaker 05

  And the number one thing, this is the thing I didn't get to, is we talked earlier about how when each of us read a story, we create our own blend. You should read your things in groups and talk to people about it. Because when you talk about stories of people, you hear their interpretations, and you create a composite blend together, and that creates a new sense of community. And so, in this day and age, we're sitting behind computers, we're doing things alone. Go to a coffee shop, make a book group, make a Zoom book group, right? Talk about movies together, because that's how you create community.

• 5:51Speaker 03

  So here we are, creating community.

• 5:54Liv Albert?

  I love that. I also love that there's an episode that we've recorded but hasn't come out yet with Joel, because I love Joel. He can come on the show anytime he wants. I'm trying to not make like, just the Joel show. But every time we have a topic, like, I'm so down. But we recorded one where Makila is heavily in it about the Iliad, and that comes up again about talking, yeah, like, sharing that with community. So I'm glad you played that. And also, it is distinctly weird to hear my own four years come back in a recording again while I'm here again. It's like. And also, yeah, like my go. But also, that episode too, at the beginning, he stumped me so much that I was like, I don't, I don't know what to say because it's so sciency.

• 6:34Liv Albert?

  And I trust you, but I don't know what to say to keep you going. And so I can like feel that where those.

• 6:42Liv Albert?

  The only time he's ever baffled me.

• 6:45Speaker 03

  Hey, you all brought it home wonderfully. So like.

• 6:50Liv Albert?

  Yeah, but that's so true. Like, talking about it is so real. And when it comes to, like, I mean, I'm gonna have trouble not making this one, like me being the host, because it's so normal for me, particularly because I just rewatched Chaos and it's so delightful, but like, there's so much to talk about. There is. And I've only seen the first episode, so I can't even imagine what you guys can get into.

• 7:09Speaker 03

  Yeah. And specifically, we're gonna actually do two parts. So today, we're gonna just focus on the gods. And then we have a really fun guest planned to talk about the mortals. So like, again, tons to unpack here, so much to talk about that I'm really excited about. I also wanted to go back, like, Lele, I don't remember if you remember this, but you came on our podcast, Movies We Dig, to talk about Spartacus, the Gannicus season.

• 7:34Liv Albert?

  Yes.

• 7:34Speaker 03

  And you gave us some intel about Chaos because its production was kind of.

• 7:39Liv Albert?

  Oh, yeah.

• 7:40Speaker 03

  It struggled. And so initially.

• 7:43Liv Albert?

  I was, people were sending me just this singular image of the word chaos and Netflix. I had been getting news about that, people learning about it for years before it ever came out. And I thought it would never see the light of day.

• 7:58Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 7:58Liv Albert?

  Yeah.

• 7:59Speaker 03

  Yeah. And so I remember you telling us that. And they were like, eh, maybe we won't watch it.

• 8:04Liv Albert?

  Yeah, I was like, I think it's gonna be shit. I also heard from somebody who was like, had worked with Netflix, that like, they thought it was also going to be shit because of the way Netflix had handled it. And so it's, I mean, it's. Disappointing, but not surprising that it's incredible and they canceled it.

• 8:21Speaker 03

  Yeah, yep, yep.

• 8:23Liv Albert?

  It's pretty par for the course for Netflix, honestly.

• 8:26Speaker 03

  Yeah. Yeah, and we talked about this in our live show, but like there are other creators talking about how they um, uh, people of color and other minority groups who had been pitching more shows like this. And like these big streaming services were already saying no, they were already anticipating like the kind of fascist takeover um, that is happening uh, in our world. Um, and it's sad to think that that's going to start to be reflected in our entertainment as well, because these kinds of stories aren't being picked up. So we're going to talk about it for years to come, even if there's never another season, so like.

• 9:04Liv Albert?

  And it's, it's like I said before we started recording, but it's why chaos plays with mythology brilliantly. And with a lot of like really deep knowledge of the sources and context and all the things that I want. I mean, again, seen the first episode and I still think that's true. And it got canceled, whereas based on everything I've seen and I'm willing to be open about it, but at this point I've got the lowest hopes in the world that Christopher Nolan got 250 million to make The Odyssey. It's the most he's ever been like his biggest budget movie ever. And so far, I think it's going to be straight up Western civilization, American propaganda.

• 9:41Liv Albert?

  And he gets to make that chaos, which is clearly about like overreach and like to tell like authoritarianism and like all of that, like.

• 9:51Speaker 03

  The patriarchy and like.

• 9:53Liv Albert?

  Surprise, yeah.

• 9:54Speaker 03

  Fighting against it, yeah.

• 9:55Liv Albert?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 9:56Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 9:57Liv Albert?

  Unsurprising, but at least we can talk about season one.

• 10:00Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 10:01Liv Albert?

  Or episode one before I leave.

• 10:04Speaker 03

  Yeah, so I, I guess, um, you know, once we kick you out, me and Michaela will go a little bit more into our, our personal experiences with the show. But Liv, tell us about your limited experience with chaos.

• 10:14Liv Albert?

  Well, again, now I have seen episode one twice. I watched it, the, the problem was it came out for me at like a very bad time in my life where I was not capable of watching anything new, let alone something new that I was like. Like I just remember watching the first episode and I was like, this is great. And I am in such a bad place mentally that I can't watch something that is so.

• 10:36Liv Albert?

  Is so for me, but which I like, I'm not in a place to like, to talk about it or like any of those things, you know, so it's just very bad timing. But rewatching it again, I was like, oh no, I remember how like how excited I was. And so I'm excited to go back, but it's all to say, I've seen episode one and I just, I mean, we said this in a clip that's gonna be on social media, but like Jeff Goldblum is the most perfect casting. Like to me, he's the antithesis of the Matt Damon casting, like where Matt Damon is the worst casting I've ever heard of in my life, like truly, truly tragic. I think that Jeff Goldblum as this version of Zeus, because it's so specific to this version, right?

• 11:18Liv Albert?

  Where they're also playing with Zeus as like a terrible guy who's also really enjoyable to watch. Like that's what Greek mythology is, right? Like these terrible people who are so interesting to pay attention to.

• 11:30Speaker 03

  Yep.

• 11:30Liv Albert?

  And I think that giving Jeff Goldblum this kind of reign, like is so perfect. And the music is really good.

• 11:40Speaker 03

  So the needle drops.

• 11:41Speaker 04

  Oh, I, it just, the starting with money for nothing does something to my soul.

• 11:47Liv Albert?

  The dance that he does and the, the decor that they have done in Mount Olympus and the like, all the little like, there's a lot of Ganymede vibes where they've got all these little.

• 11:58Speaker 04

  The little ball boys.

• 12:01Liv Albert?

  And but they're all, they're, they're cup bearers, right? They're carrying around these jugs of water, like everywhere. And I'm like, you are just multiple Ganymede, like it's, it's really so interesting and like.

• 12:13Speaker 04

  Oh, yeah.

• 12:14Liv Albert?

  No, I mean.

• 12:15Speaker 04

  His little, like, how did you feel though about his little like tracksuit, little matching tracksuit with the shorts?

• 12:22Liv Albert?

  I mean, I just think it's, I really think it's some incredibly perfect, like, I can't even think of the words I went at, but like the costuming, the, the, the decor is not the word, but anyway, like, you know, the set, the, the design, the everything.

• 12:38Speaker 03

  The set design, the creator Charlie Koval said that they were actually inspired by Romeo Juliet, the one.

• 12:46Speaker 03

  Leonardo DiCaprio's in and it's like, oh.

• 12:48Liv Albert?

  Yeah, you can see it.

• 12:50Speaker 04

  The gardens that they're in, that's a Villa d'Este in Tivoli. Which is this amazing, beautiful garden. Um, I was at, I was there last year. Uh, that is just, it's, it's stunning. Like you, it's massive. It's huge. It has all these amazing water features and like, like I remember when I first saw it, I was like, oh, that's Villa d'Este and I know exactly. The vibe it's going, cause that was like, it was like a Pope's house or something. It was a big, yeah, but it was, oh my God. I was like, oh yeah. Okay, the garden's a villa. All right.

• 13:24Liv Albert?

  It's so good. And I liked, I liked that I could, I could both be ready for what I was pretty sure was gonna happen. And then also ready for them to do anything weird, you know, if it came to it, but, I was watching with my friend and like spoilers, but not actually spoilers for the first episode because again, this is a Greek myth. But you know, we're, we're introduced to Orpheus and Eurydice and, and Eurydice's unhappy and wants to leave him. And I was like, she's gonna die. And like, I was like, I'm, I'm like, just pretty sure that she's gonna die. Like, you know, and it's not gonna be that they're not gonna play with this idea of her leaving him, like the whole, yeah, like when Billy Piper.

• 14:03Speaker 03

  Well, Cassandra's prophecy, right? Today's the day you leave him.

• 14:07Liv Albert?

  Yeah, exactly. I'm like, nah, like, okay, this is what's gonna happen. And then even just, you know, like when he's like about to kill himself and then Dionysus is like, nah, like there's another way. I was, I was just, yeah, I, I was so ready for it. I love Killian Scott. I watched the Dublin murders like years ago and absolutely fell for him, like, and I, yeah, I'm, I'm really, I'm, I'm here for it. I'm here for it. And it's just very clever. And even like the opening, she's in the grocery store looking for stuff and the, packaging that they created, like one, the things that they show a close up on, but one of the things that's behind her, is like the, these cans of pop and a whole series of them are just called Skilla.

• 14:49Liv Albert?

  And like, that's the one I noticed off him, but I'm just like, the, the depth is really so good. Yeah, I'm ju- I'm here for it.

• 14:59Speaker 03

  I want one last take. What's your take on Dionysus initially? Cause I love Dionysus in this one.

• 15:05Liv Albert?

  I do. I do love Dionysus. I'm ready to love him even more. Yeah. Um, because I know, I know how, or I know generally that they're playing with things. Because I think Dionysus is, I mean, obviously so interesting, but there's lots of ways to go with him. And I, I, the last time I've had like, or encountered like a really, really, um, like a modern take, like very, you know, really playful kind of take. He was like this party god, but he sounded like a surfer and like, kind of a, like a bit bro-y. And I just think like, you're, you're missing the aspects

• 15:45Liv Albert?

  of Dionysus that are really far more interesting. And I'm getting the sense that, that that's not going to be missing.

• 15:52Speaker 03

  Yeah. I, I, eventually if you ever get to listen to our, our live, uh, recorded episode with Amy, like we have a really fun discussion about Dionysus. So like,

• 16:01Liv Albert?

  I gotta watch it.

• 16:02Speaker 03

  If you ever have free time, Liv.

• 16:04Liv Albert?

  Listen to the thing that I put on my own podcast.

• 16:09Liv Albert?

  You know, one day, one day.

• 16:10Speaker 03

  Well, and like, his character is, is like one of the ones that I'm most sad to not see what happens next.

• 16:19Liv Albert?

  Like, is it cliffhanger-y? Like, is it really like a bummer?

• 16:22Speaker 03

  It, it is. It wraps up, like, it wraps up, you know, we had a big discussion, me, Amy, and Lige about if we wanted to see the series continue or not. Like ideally, yes, we'd love for, um, the show to continue because it was just great. But also it's left open in a way that allows people, I think, to ask the same kinds of questions about.

• 16:49Speaker 03

  You know, our place in the world and our actions in the world that Greek tragedy did thousands of years ago. And so like, we don't get to know what happens next. We can only guess. And we can only, you know, hope that it would go a certain way, fear it would go another and and all that jazz. So like, you know, it's open to fanfiction, basically. More reception, if you will.

• 17:12Liv Albert?

  Yeah. Oh, I mean, I I I'm excited to keep watching. I'm really glad I watched it again. It was a real last minute thought. Like, I I was I was just planning on riffing off of what I remember. And then at the last minute, I was talking to uh my the friend I live with and just literally just watch it now. And we're like, okay, what do we just like, we'll just stop everything and go watch this show and absolutely no regrets.

• 17:37Speaker 03

  Watch it with your friends. Best way to watch it. So the second time.

• 17:40Liv Albert?

  That's what I needed. Yeah.

• 17:41Speaker 03

  Yeah. Second time I watched it, it was at Camus at this conference and Elijah was with me and my best friend Sammy, who we all know each other. We all watched it together in the hotel room. Best experience, like, just like us reacting. And like, we're about halfway through it. We went to a pre uh conference presentation on chaos. And my friend Sammy's sitting next to me and like, things are being said. I'm like, spoiler, I'm so sorry, Sammy. And she's like, and I could feel her like tense up. And she's like, no. And I'm like, I'm so sorry. She's like, no, it's fine. I'll still watch it. Like, I know, but like.

• 18:16Liv Albert?

  I know. I do know one spoiler that I won't, I won't say, but it's ma- it makes it harder.

• 18:23Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 18:23Liv Albert?

  The yeah, to know.

• 18:24Speaker 03

  Hashtag justice for Dennis.

• 18:26Liv Albert?

  Yeah.

• 18:26Speaker 03

  All we have to say.

• 18:27Liv Albert?

  Yeah. Yeah, that's the I I only and I don't even know the details. I just know to be aware.

• 18:32Speaker 03

  Just know he he needs justice. If nothing else, for a second season, it's for Dennis.

• 18:38Liv Albert?

  Yeah.

• 18:38Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 18:40Liv Albert?

  Well, I mean, maybe that's when I duck out and leave you guys.

• 18:44Speaker 03

  I would say it's like, I think, yeah, it's like, I think we should kick you out. You should go watch the rest of the season while I'm Kaylin. I have a great time chatting about having already watched it. So.

• 18:54Liv Albert?

  So happy you were here. Now leave.

• 18:58Liv Albert?

  Fine, fine. I'll go.

• 19:09Speaker 06

  #JusticeForJanice The Gods and Casual cruelty in chaos. That was recorded in the lobby of Greek Hotel, Wines.

• 19:26Speaker 06

  Speaking to this Wednesday.

• 19:36Speaker 04

  Ah, okay.

• 19:37Speaker 03

  All right. Well, now that Liv is gone, um, Michaela, can you tell me your experience with Chaos?

• 19:46Speaker 04

  With Chaos.

• 19:46Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 19:47Speaker 04

  Um, so I watched it when it first came out, which I'm trying to remember if that was last summer or the summer before. Time is meaningless.

• 19:55Speaker 03

  Came out like late last summer.

• 19:56Speaker 04

  Yeah, okay.

• 19:57Speaker 03

  Early fall, yeah.

• 19:58Speaker 04

  I remember binge watching it. I bel- I wanna say I was at, um, the boys' place, which is a place I housed it for a couple, um, this couple with their three dogs. And a lot of the time, it's just me and the dogs just vibing and doing things. And I'm pretty sure I just binge watched Chaos when I was at their place. And I just remember being like, this is amazing. I was just blown away by the adaption and the music choices and the characters and the representation in a way that, like, that was done in a way that, like, is so close to my heart. Because representation for the sake of representation hurts me. But just to see people who are people of colors and queer characters and transness, well, the transness, well, okay.

• 20:43Speaker 04

  And then, um, uh, the disability and that it was, had nothing to do with their character, it just was.

• 20:51Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 20:52Speaker 04

  Warmed me so much where I was just like, oh, my God, this show is doing. Such beautiful, amazing things and treating people like people and playing with myth in this beautiful way. And I can't get over it. And then they cancel it. And I was like, okay, now it's truly, truly time for me to burn something to the ground. I am filled with rage.

• 21:15Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 21:15Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 21:17Speaker 03

  Yeah. Yeah. It was kind of like, um, we said earlier, like I explained how Liv had kind of initially, we weren't excited. And then our guest who came to talk with us, Amy, she saw it and she's like, she emailed us in all caps. She's like, guys, let me come on your show and talk about chaos. And we're like, okay.

• 21:37Speaker 04

  Alrighty.

• 21:38Speaker 03

  And, um, we were very, very, very glad that we did that. And I, at the time, it had, it had just been released long enough, but like they hadn't announced a, a second season or anything. And I think we released in October of last year and I was sitting there, I was like, if Netflix hasn't picked this up despite like, it, it isn't necessarily like, everyone's watching it, but like everyone who is watching it loves it, like absolutely loves it. And so if Netflix is silent at this point,

• 22:12Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 22:12Speaker 03

  I don't think they're going to pick it up. And I was really sad just to see that I was right. Like, oh, and it's, I, I think that's something really important to say upfront here. It's like, you know, I've talked about this show multiple times now on, on podcast episodes. And I'm like, I'm going to do it again with whoever wants to talk to me about it. And it's like, girl, it's one season. And there's, as of right now, no future for it. So it's like, why should people care? And I'm like, you should care about this show because it is groundbreaking, both in terms of what it's doing with myth retallings. And as you said, Michaela, like wonderfully, like how it is just allowing people, all people to be people.

• 22:57Speaker 03

  Like that they're. What we would highlight in a lot of our popular media is being like the thing they must overcome to be,

• 23:06Speaker 04

  You know, It's like not even a part of the character. It just is.

• 23:09Speaker 03

  It just is.

• 23:10Speaker 04

  Like I think of like Daedalus, like I didn't even,

• 23:12Speaker 03

  Daedalus is a great example.

• 23:13Speaker 04

  You know, like it was just here's this man with a disability doesn't pop up once. And I was and has nothing to do with his character. He's just, this is just him. And it was, oh my God, I can't also, I don't know what's like, I just, I love Daedalus so much. I love that actor so much. So it's like, just seeing that just warms my heart so much because it's like, Yeah, this is what representation should be. It's not about showing disability or showing um like a different uh just orientations in life or whatever. It it's not about exploring that. It's about just letting it be.

• 23:52Speaker 04

  And letting it exist. You know, it's the person's, the person, the character's um story doesn't have to do with them being this different.

• 24:04Speaker 03

  Exactly.

• 24:05Speaker 04

  From the whatever quote unquote a norm. Uh, and so, yeah, no, I was like so stunned that the show did that in such a, in such a beautiful way. And the way I've been screaming about my whole life, like, I'm like, I don't want Pocahontas. I just want, you know, an indigenous character, just like that they're just there.

• 24:25Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 24:25Speaker 04

  Like they're just there. That's, that's that. It's

• 24:29Speaker 03

  And it's sad like, it's like, and those shows are well received a lot of the time, right? Like they don't, they aren't necessarily mass popular blockbusters, but like everyone who watches them loves them. And it just goes to show, it's like, there is a place in our storytelling for everyone. Why do we keep telling the same story about this guy named Odysseus or whatever? The same way over and over and over again. It's like, do something different and. Um, I, you know, we'll end up talking about it more next time, but like the, the Orpheus Eurydice storyline here is a great example because it's still a romance between these two characters, but it's a romance of falling out of love.

• 25:11Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 25:11Speaker 03

  And what does that look like?

• 25:12Speaker 04

  And yeah.

• 25:13Speaker 03

  How is that also beautiful?

• 25:15Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 25:16Speaker 03

  In its own way.

• 25:16Speaker 04

  And that one hit me really hard because like I have a like personal experience like that similar kind of falling out of like, like I've been that woman who has fallen out of love with someone who loved me very deeply and it, you know, when I first watched it, it hit a lot harder. Now, when my second walk through, I was like, I had the amount of love and like empathy I had for Riddy as a character was just as someone who's been there and been out of it and who blamed herself the way that Riddy was blaming herself. Like I, it was so real to me where I'm like, oh, there is love, there is love. It's just not the right kind of love.

• 25:52Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 25:52Speaker 04

  But anyways, I digress.

• 25:55Speaker 03

  Yeah, well, oh, we'll, we'll have so much fun unpacking that next time. Um, but, but today, yes, we are, we're gonna, we're gonna go to Mount Olympus and the underworld and we're gonna talk about the gods because.

• 26:07Speaker 04

  I love them.

• 26:09Speaker 03

  It's so weird. It's such a short show.

• 26:11Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 26:11Speaker 03

  And it feels like there's not a lot of characters, but when you really unpack it and like how well like storylines were tied together is like, there's a lot of characters to talk about.

• 26:21Speaker 04

  Yes.

• 26:22Speaker 03

  And I mean, I guess we've already talked about Zeus a little bit. Do you want to add any more, uh, and to your like impressions of him, Jeff Goldblum?

• 26:31Speaker 04

  Oh, my God, Jeff Goldblum. He is, I love Jeff Goldblum and I, you know, Liv was saying this and I've been saying this since I watched, first watched the show, I swear to God, they just released him on set. They were just like, go ahead, go ahead, Jeff, do what you want. And he was like, great, okay. And he did, and it was beautiful. And he kind of captures that, that really amazing thing about Zeus as a character where he is this like all powerful, sure God, but he is hyper aware that his position is.

• 27:07Speaker 04

  Maybe not as permanent as he likes it to be, and that erodes at his um confidence in his position. And yeah, I loved him as a character. Um Hera, obsessed.

• 27:23Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 27:25Speaker 03

  Yeah. Yeah, I, yeah, that that's a good place to start with both of them, because as you've pointed out, and this is something um that had been pointed out to me as well, is like, this Zeus is really interesting, because this is an insecure Zeus. This is like the Zeus from Prometheus bound, where like, he is worried about the prophecies that he may be overthrown. He is making rash decisions to protect himself, to protect his position. And you don't necessarily get that in all of these stories and depictions of Zeus, but Jeff Goldblum, like, perfectly, it it was really interesting, because like, on the one hand, it seemed, it's like, you almost want to call him emotional,

• 28:06Speaker 03

  because there are times where like, you know, when he's so insecure, and he's just going off. See, and then, but

• 28:12Speaker 04

  He's having big feelings.

• 28:14Speaker 03

  He is, but like, at the same time, it's like, I don't want to call that emotional, because it's all self-centered. It's it's not being concerned for anyone else but himself. So like, it's

• 28:29Speaker 04

  I will, and and then I think about, I think there was one part where Prometheus says, like, this is not the Zeus I knew. And um but he also says, like, you know, Zeus was human too. And like, I think there's that in the thing where he is, you know, Zeus later, when he talks to Dionysus, he's like, remember you are a god. I even think I wrote down what he said. Oh, no, let me find it.

• 28:54Speaker 04

  Ba ba ba ba, uh, what is, ew, um.

• 29:00Speaker 04

  He says to him, we don't love anything lesser than ourselves. So he sees human, he is not human anymore.

• 29:07Speaker 03

  Correct.

• 29:07Speaker 04

  But there are so many things about him that I think are so human and this sort of like very self-centered sort of worry and paranoia and that kind of thing. I think that is very human, especially from someone who is in a position of power and who doesn't and doesn't want to lose that power and is power hungry and wants people to respect him. You know, it's that whole like, like, um, you gotta give, you know, the like, treat me the way you want to be treated, but that just means like, you know, um,

• 29:38Speaker 03

  Yep.

• 29:38Speaker 04

  respect me because

• 29:40Speaker 03

  Yep.

• 29:41Speaker 04

  versus anything. So I think there's something about him that it, there is that humanity that's left in him, but it's not maybe the good part of humanity. It's that very where, how do we get to this point? Oh, it's because that was prioritized, that selfishness and that greed, the capitalism and patriarchy.

• 29:58Speaker 03

  I was gonna say, so patriarchy, which is this, like patriarchy creates an ideal

• 30:03Speaker 04

  Yep.

• 30:04Speaker 03

  man, right?

• 30:05Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 30:05Speaker 03

  And there is such anxiety.

• 30:08Speaker 04

  Yep.

• 30:09Speaker 03

  For men to reach that idea, like women have their own ideal, they have to meet in terms of beauty standards and things like that, but men have that too.

• 30:16Speaker 04

  Absolutely.

• 30:17Speaker 03

  And it causes them so much anxiety. And I love that, like, what is causing this kind of freak out for Zeus is a line appears and he interprets that as this random little wrinkle on his forehead, which is like aging and

• 30:32Speaker 04

  Yes.

• 30:33Speaker 03

  and like these things that are just a fear of like not meeting this standard that they're supposed to.

• 30:40Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 30:41Speaker 03

  And so it's like, that's a very real, you know, I like that it's acknowledging the anxiety that comes from even being a man in this world.

• 30:48Speaker 04

  Yes.

• 30:48Speaker 03

  It's not perfect, like.

• 30:50Speaker 04

  And this is, I think the thing that people forget when they, when we hear like people who are feminists are talking about patriarchy and all the thing is it, it's they, I think they center it so much on the woman's experience that they don't realize that actually. Patriarchy is very, very, very negative for men as well. Cause it sets up this standard and expectation for them to be a certain thing. That is unattain unattainable in the same way. And also doesn't allow them to exist and have be emotional or be imperfect or be all these things without it being viewed as weakness. And so, you know, you see Zeus, you know, yeah, he got the wrinkle. What did he say? What is that aging?

• 31:31Speaker 04

  Mood. I was like same, honestly.

• 31:35Speaker 04

  I feel that in my soul, but like it's that idea of like it. He is not allowed to change from that. What his, whatever his peak was that he's he sees it as. And if he is, that is weakness at what it's not, but you know.

• 31:54Speaker 03

  Yeah. And, and that's, and that's just it. It's like, that is what patriarchy does, right? It removes your humanity.

• 32:00Speaker 04

  Yes, exactly.

• 32:02Speaker 03

  And that's why the relationship with Dionysus is so interesting because Dionysus is trying to live up to the image of his father. He wants a role in this system, this patriarchal system.

• 32:15Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 32:15Speaker 03

  And on, and so he can either choose to embrace the casual cruelty as we identified it when we're and we'll, we'll talk about some of those instances.

• 32:24Speaker 04

  No, that's absolutely, it's the him and the watch story with the lady casual cruelty.

• 32:29Speaker 03

  Casual cruelty. Yeah.

• 32:30Speaker 04

  Perfect way to describe it.

• 32:31Speaker 03

  Yeah. And so it's like Dionysus definitely engages that not to like the extreme degree. We see some of the other gods do it, but like he's, he's kind of there, right? Like he wants to be, he thinks he wants to be someone his father respects. But then he's also, you know, at the end, justice for Dennis. You know, now Persephone comes up to him and says, you caring for that creature? Yeah, it's not weak. Embrace your humanity. And he's kind of, that's where the season ends, right? It's like, yeah, his decision, do I embrace my godliness or do I embrace my humanity?

• 33:05Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 33:05Speaker 03

  And, oh.

• 33:07Speaker 04

  So what is it? She was like, maybe the best part of you is the human part.

• 33:11Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 33:11Speaker 04

  And it's interesting because if we take that thinking about how, you know, Prometheus was like, yeah, Zeus was human once and like we're getting, we're getting this idea of like how they maintain power is through taking that essence. So Zeus has just been able to do that more and more and more and more and more, which has elevated him to this like very super god level. And. So there was a human in him once, and he was close to humanity once. And Dionysus kind of is that. He is, there is God, but there is human. You know, his mother was human, very much so. And he is the one who is directly out and engaging with humans so much. He is existing within them. And yes, in this very hedonistic, wild, fun way.

• 33:52Speaker 04

  But he is interacting with people organically. Because when the other gods come and talk to mortals and around mortals, they let them know, hey, I'm a god, you know? I'm god. Dionysus doesn't necessarily, he's just talking to the guy in the falafel stand, being like, hey, man, you know, what's going on? I'm having problems with my dad. But he's not saying some, hey, I'm a god, tell me what's going on. He's just having a conversation. It's this very natural, human sort of connection he is looking for.

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• 35:56Speaker 03

  Yeah, yeah, because when Zeus goes down, he comments on just like, they're too jovial. Why don't it's like they're they're not fearful enough.

• 36:03Speaker 04

  Why aren't they? Why aren't they doing anything? It's like, buddy, come on.

• 36:08Speaker 03

  And and we learn like Zeus becomes Zeus by killing his father and absorbing his soul. So it's again, continuing this generational abuse.

• 36:17Speaker 04

  Yes.

• 36:17Speaker 03

  Of father and son, which is, you know, it ties to Greek mythology and it's still, you know, a huge issue today.

• 36:25Speaker 04

  And yeah, yeah, and speaks into how patriarchy and sort of those values are maintained because it's it's how do you teach boys to uphold the patriarchy when they grow into men? Well, you need to first remove them from an environment that would push them away from it. So you remove them from being around women and you have the men raise them. And, you know, we see that in like classical Greece. It was when the boy was old enough, and by old enough, I mean, like around five or six. He is removed from the care of his mother and he is now with the father. And the father is raising him, and that is what keeps the cycle going because you teach the son

• 37:07Speaker 04

  how to maintain these structures and don't let them engage with others and you don't let them engage with women and allow them to humanize them and see them as people. You just kind of, you know.

• 37:19Speaker 03

  And it's interesting, the way that like it's the carrot in the club with how you do it too. Right? Like, on the one hand, Zeus is trying to force compliance from Dionysus by taking away the thing, one of the things he loves. But there's also, you know, what is being offered? Meander water, which is immortality on the one hand, but also like diet, like Dionysus looking for a promotion. He wants power over other things that seem more important.

• 37:49Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 37:50Speaker 03

  And like, if that's not what patriarchy is in a nutshell, like this idea of like making yourself known for like Gilgamesh, like, uh, shoot, Achilles, like, and and the power that goes with that, like it.

• 38:06Speaker 03

  Bravo. Well done. Oh, man.

• 38:11Speaker 04

  It's beautiful. It's beautiful. In a very disturbing way, but it's fine.

• 38:15Speaker 03

  Which, which does now make me want to go to Hera for a little bit because

• 38:20Speaker 04

  Love of my life.

• 38:21Speaker 03

  Characterization in this is so interesting. So let me get your take on it first.

• 38:27Speaker 04

  I have an incredible love for Hera as a character and as a figure from antiquity.

• 38:37Speaker 04

  Mostly because I see the women who have to exist within patriarchy and the ways they subvert that power and keep going in life is that it's very present in her. And I find her to be an incredibly tragic character, actually. And yes, she is bitchy. Sure. Okay. But you know what? What is a bitchy woman if not a woman who stands up for herself and is confident and doesn't take shit? And I think that's powerful. So when I see this woman who is, you know, yeah, to quote my Big Fat Greek Wedding,

• 39:12Speaker 04

  "The man may be the head of the household, but the woman is the neck and she can turn the head any way she wants." You know, that it is very much that Hera has inherent power, not just in, you know, what she can do, but also in the way that she can control Zeus. And by control, I do mean like comfort and guide him. And she is the emotional side of him. It's sort of like the traditional hetero romantic relationship dynamic where the man is the provider and the woman is the emotional support. And she is very much that, even if she is stern in times, she like that, that is what she has to be. But then we see her as this really actually like, she is also a mother in a lot of ways and

• 39:57Speaker 04

  how she protects things. Maybe she goes about things wrong, but she's still protecting them. When she turns the women that Zeus has an affair with into bees, that is She is protecting them in a sense. She is removing them from him so he can't keep using them to further his own power and his own goals. And she puts them somewhere she deemed safe. Does she always do it? Is that the right thing to do? No, but how can a woman woman exist within that structure? What avenues is she allowed to take? And this is one of them. And I found it incredibly interesting. Let me just pull this up. I totally did not get it ready.

• 40:36Speaker 04

  Oh, uh, on women. Um, the, the choice of within chaos to have her choose it always being bees. I found to be incredibly interesting because I don't know if you know, there's this poet from the archaic period. His name is um, Simonides. And he wrote an entire uh, poem about women. And he's basically throughout it talking about like, here are the different type of women. And you know, this, the, the woman who's like a donkey and she's lazy. And there's the woman who's like the fox and she's wily. Those women like a horse and she's beautiful, but she looks like power. And it's all of these women, they're negative except for one, which was the bee woman. Where, where he says like, another type is from

• 41:20Speaker 04

  a bee. Good luck in finding such a woman. Only she deserves to be exempt from stinging blame. The household that she manages will thrive. A loving wife beside her loving man. She'll grow old having born illustrious and handsome children. She herself shines bright among all women. Grace envelops her. She doesn't like to sit with other women discussing sex. Zeus gratifies mankind with these most excellent and thoughtful wives. So I think that choice of turning them into bees where the especially the female bees to the queens, they're the ones who are running the show, is actually, there's something in that that is really powerful and protective. I just don't always think she goes about it the right way, but she takes the avenues that is available to her.

• 42:05Speaker 03

  Yeah. Yeah. I think that's why for me Hera is such a complicated character, even in this show. And she is another one. Her and Dionysus are like the main two. And I'm really eager. I was really eager to see like what we're gonna do. Because. She is also someone who very much engages engages in casual cruelty of

• 42:28Speaker 04

  Yes.

• 42:29Speaker 03

  Like her ta- her tacitus, like the removal of their tongues, so they can't speak as a way to protect herself.

• 42:36Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 42:36Speaker 03

  And then, you know, turning the the scene where we see how Hera turns them into beasts, she forces a woman to go through

• 42:43Speaker 04

  Yep.

• 42:44Speaker 03

  An entire pregnancy and birth within seconds. And I was like, that is, that was one of the most horrifying things.

• 42:52Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 42:52Speaker 03

  To like see happen.

• 42:53Speaker 04

  It was like body horror to the extreme. I was like, oh, no, no, no, no, I can't watch this. This is my nightmare.

• 43:00Speaker 03

  And you know, at the end, like when when Zeus has kind of had enough.

• 43:05Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 43:06Speaker 03

  And he's, what he's done is he's set fire to the beehives and is killing all of his former lovers.

• 43:12Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 43:13Speaker 03

  And and he's like, I'm not gonna let you enslave them anymore. And she's like, so you kill them instead? And you kind of realize both options are very cruel. And like, you know, that's, that is the reality for women in the ancient world, women in the modern world of like, when you are subjugated.

• 43:31Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 43:31Speaker 03

  It is enslavement, rape, or death. Like, it's, no matter what, it's horrifying again in this system. And Hera, what Hera is really doing is co-opting power. You're right. She is subverting power how she can. She, but she is working within the system of patriarchy to her advantage.

• 43:51Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 43:51Speaker 03

  And that becomes kind of a really power, and she is a white woman as well. And it's very much reading as, you know, women do that to survive. And they'll hold on to that patriarchal system as long as they can get some semblance of power out of it. But eventually, the top will turn against you and will bring you harm.

• 44:14Speaker 04

  Yeah. And It's so interesting, like the casual cool tea. I really love that phrasing of it because it's perfect. And then, yeah, to doing that to the Tacitus and stuff, but then you also see the actual like amount of like love and care she has for the Tacitus at the same time, like not just when Zeus tortures and kills the one. The actual like grief we see her have for that woman was so immense, but there's also this like other small moment where I'm like, she cared. It was small care, but it was there where it was like when she and Poseidon were having sex on the boat one time. And she has all the Tacitus around them and they all have sunglasses on. And I was just like, aww. She made sure their eyes weren't getting assaulted by the sun. That's kind of nice.

• 44:58Speaker 04

  But there it's, it's so interesting to me because she shows care and she is this, she is this mother figure. But she shows like

• 45:10Speaker 04

  care in within the system in the ways she can so she can still have power. And I think it's interesting when you, you bring up this like, this is how women um, um, who can survive the patriarchy and, you know, specifically white women, like, sorry, like, let's be honest.

• 45:24Speaker 03

  Yep.

• 45:25Speaker 04

  Um, this is how it's often done. And I read a book earlier this year, uh, it's called Down Girl by Kate Mann, The Logic of Misogyny. That touches on this and it says, you know, like misogyny is created by patriarchy. And it is upheld by the men who embody patriarchy, but it is also very much so upheld by the women who allow it to happen within patriarchy and to kind of turn on each other so that they can keep their position. And uh, but I like, I, I love how it's highlighted with Hera, because I think it's so fascinating and interesting to, and also I just love seeing women who aren't necessarily good guys.

• 46:07Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 46:08Speaker 04

  Because like women can suck too.

• 46:10Speaker 03

  Yeah, that's great. That's why, like, again, her ending was so interesting because we, we gotta listen to one phone call. We have, we have the phone call at the end. It's just like, honey, we're going to war.

• 46:20Speaker 04

  Darling, it's mommy. Gather your troops, we'll set up and set up a spare bed. Oh my. My god, I have to rewatch that scene all the time because that that there's something about her hanging up that phone, putting on her sunglasses and marching out that like literally the first time I saw it, I was tearing up. I was like, oh, power. Oh, oh, it's beautiful. And I was like, that is the energy I want to bring into the room. So like, this is who I want to be. But like, that is so. It it's interesting. Now we're seeing her like this is why I want more because I wanted to see that snap.

• 46:53Speaker 03

  Right, because because Zeus has turned against her. The the system is now working against her.

• 46:59Speaker 04

  Yep.

• 46:59Speaker 03

  What does she do? Does she try to recreate that system and put herself at top? And you can call that a matriarchy, but at the end of the day, it's still an exploitive system.

• 47:09Speaker 04

  Exactly, yeah.

• 47:10Speaker 03

  Or does she, as you pointed out, like she hasn't necessarily given up all of her humanity either. Does she try something else? And I think that's an interesting, open-ended question there at the end as well. I think she's calling Ares. Is that who?

• 47:24Speaker 04

  Absolutely. Yeah, I I can't, I I don't, I couldn't see it being anyone else. It's the, it's the, first of all, she is the mother. We have that clear. Because she's not just using its mom, its mommy, you know? So there's an affection. Um, and it's gather your troops. And so I'm like, okay, who were her sons? We have Ares and Hephaestus. Those were her sons.

• 47:44Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 47:44Speaker 04

  It's Hephaestus isn't gonna.

• 47:46Speaker 03

  And it's probably not Harmonia either. No offense.

• 47:48Speaker 04

  No. We love her. No, yeah, the other one, I don't remember the one that Hercules marries. I don't know. Oh, but yeah, but what I just, because like, and and we were kind of touching on this a bit earlier, and I think we'll have to talk about this more with the Anastasia when she comes on, but the amount of mothers in the series and Hera as a mother is a care is is something I think that needs to be held on. And you have to remember, like, she is.

• 48:19Speaker 04

  I often think of her as like the mother to all, right? Especially her position in antiquity was this, the woman's goddess. And how did she do that? She had to protect women by removing them from situations. And sort of like, that's kind of how I see her turning the women into bees. Where it's like, they're no longer in a environment where men can exploit them. Sure, she is now, you know?

• 48:44Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 48:44Speaker 04

  But she is also taking care of them, just in the only way she knows how. Cause I don't think she's a particularly warm character. She's sort of that very cold, hard to meet mother, but she's still a mom. They still care there.

• 48:56Speaker 03

  Yeah. And I, I think the other thing, cause we get to see a little bit of, like with Dionysus, right? Like that, I think it was used in a promo was the, the scene of them sitting at the table for the first time together. It's like, don't, don't use that language around your mom. She's like, she's not my mom, smack. And it's Zeus who does it, right? And it's not Hera who's like calling Dionysus out or anything.

• 49:20Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 49:20Speaker 03

  And, and the reason we have the body horror situation is like, she said, she keeps telling Zeus, no more children.

• 49:28Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 49:28Speaker 03

  And you kind of, kind of wonder, why is that? Like, why is she doing that? Is it because she's aware of this crisis that we have in the underworld of? Cause like, it doesn't seem like meander water is running out, but we know that the system is getting overloaded somehow. So there might be a limit to the immortality. There might be a limit to like, how many people you can have be a part of this family? And I, so I think there's something more there that I'm really curious about. That we don't, we don't get to learn too much. And the other really interesting thing with Hera is she has a relationship with Poseidon.

• 50:11Speaker 03

  And I, there's a, I think this will be a good lead into Poseidon, but also she makes a comment like, he's like, you know, um, if it was me in chat, you'd be with me. And she's like, if it was you, I'd be sleeping with him. And I thought, that's so interesting. Why?

• 50:27Speaker 04

  I, see, I think see that as her not allowing herself to be the tied down and the wifely wife. You know what I mean? She is someone who has power in herself and allowing herself to have a, an affair of this kind, gives her a position of. Power in the sense that she has agency outside of the marriage. And you know, like she was even, you know, when Zeus was freaking out because he heard her having sex with Poseidon in her bathroom. And she's like, show me. And then, you know, after she's comforting him and she was all like, oh, you know, it was probably just somebody fucking in a tacita.

• 51:10Speaker 04

  But of a tacita, um, you know, she was saying to him like, we both have our affairs. So I think there's something about them having affairs with mortals. That is almost okay, but having affairs with other gods, that's too much of a reach. So

• 51:25Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 51:26Speaker 04

  By her having an affair with Poseidon, who is another god, like, let's remove the family relationships from it. That is her asserting her power and her ability to have control um, in such, in such a way.

• 51:37Speaker 03

  Yeah, no, I like that take, especially if we, you know, kind of contextualize that again in ancient times where at least for men.

• 51:46Speaker 03

  If you are sleeping with people of lower status, particularly slaves.

• 51:50Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 51:51Speaker 03

  Right? Like, that's just acceptable and

• 51:53Speaker 04

  Yes.

• 51:53Speaker 03

  Expected to a certain extent.

• 51:55Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 51:55Speaker 03

  Um, and that's being like Hera's wanting to take advantage of that patriarchal privilege. Um, to an extent, um, and she's getting some pushback for it.

• 52:07Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 52:08Speaker 03

  Interestingly enough, yeah. And, uh, the other thing with, what was I gonna, I, I almost lost the thought.

• 52:18Speaker 03

  Where was I?

• 52:21Speaker 03

  Hmm. Might have just floated off.

• 52:24Speaker 04

  It'll come back.

• 52:25Speaker 03

  It'll come back.

• 52:26Speaker 04

  It'll make its way back.

• 52:27Speaker 03

  Yeah, anyway, but like, um, what we do learn eventually that Poseidon, so this is kind of my segue into Poseidon. Ends up falling in love with her. So I definitely think you're correct. Like for her, this is just a power play.

• 52:40Speaker 04

  Yeah, yeah.

• 52:41Speaker 03

  Um, for sure. But Poseidon actually

• 52:44Speaker 04

  Has feelings.

• 52:44Speaker 03

  Has feelings. He catches feelings for her.

• 52:47Speaker 04

  And I don't know if you noticed this, but, um, when they introduced Poseidon, because you know, they, they show the character and they're like, womb, name, blah, blah, blah. And one of the things that said, um, Zeus's younger brother. And I thought that was crazy because in actual myth, Zeus is the youngest. He is the youngest child, but in here he is the older sibling. And I was like, Because because adding the younger in there, I paints Poseidon a certain way and paints Zeus a certain way. That I was just like, what is happening? What are they trying to do here? I couldn't quite grasp it. I just it's it's flung out at me out for his character.

• 53:24Speaker 03

  And I think there's, I think there's, um, that's a really good point. I think there are some interpretations. I could be wrong, but I feel like I've heard there's some interpretations that. Cause um, I think the general order is hate. No, is Poseidon, no Poseidon's third.

• 53:39Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 53:40Speaker 03

  So Hades and Zeus. So, well, okay, I'm keeping the woman out for a minute because I'm gonna confuse myself even more, but like a general order of. Cause some people have pointed like you, the trident has three, the bident for Hades has two, Zeus with the thunderbolt is one. And so there there's this weird certain order and that like the birth order is actually relates to like those, since Zeus was never eaten. By his father and then the the way that they were expelled becomes the new birth order bas- basically. Um, so I've heard some interpretations in that way. I don't know if any ancients were buying that, but.

• 54:19Speaker 04

  I don't know. Maybe it wasn't even that important, but.

• 54:22Speaker 03

  Cause like. Well, and not to go too far off Poseidon yet, but Hades looks visibly older than both of them and seems. Yes.

• 54:32Speaker 04

  He's aging. You want to see aging Zeus? That's Hades. He's tired.

• 54:37Speaker 03

  That that's kind of like what I get is like what Zeus is afraid of becoming is his brother, Hades. And the only time we see real violence.

• 54:47Speaker 04

  Yes.

• 54:48Speaker 03

  Against the gods is dumb. I I'm pretty sure confidence says. Zeus to Hades, but also Zeus a little bit to Dionysus too, right? To like, to reinforce.

• 54:58Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 54:59Speaker 03

  You know, don't, don't upset the orders like I'm on top. Here's your mother. You're a child.

• 55:05Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 55:06Speaker 03

  Behave like that. That is being reinforced by Zeus every time and yeah.

• 55:11Speaker 04

  Oof, I'm comfy. Poseidon though, I don't have that many thoughts about him. I do think it's interesting that he has actual love. Uh, and like when you see it displayed, you know, especially at the the last episode, like it is, it is very clear, like. This there is love and he is jealous of his brother and he does he does the little like show hosts um show ponying in various ways him walking into the house after coming from I can't do laps in the ocean. Yes, you can, bud. You're the god of the sea. Yes, you can. Um, there's this weird jealousy there weird. I don't know if he's in love. It's not weird. That's

• 55:52Speaker 03

  Yeah, it's definitely like the brother that feels overshadowed and sometimes that's okay because Zeus doesn't or maybe Poseidon doesn't want to be he's he's okay being just in charge of Crete. He's okay with like his little he's okay for a while. And I think that's when they talk about this prophecy starting to happen, the family falls. I think some of it is Dionysus as being a catalyst, right? Dionysus shows up and starts talking about love and things like that. And and yeah, and then and then Poseidon starts to catch feelings for he starts to think more about this relationship with Hera. Um, and so I think I think Poseidon is kind

• 56:35Speaker 03

  of would have been in stasis for a long time. He would have been content with his little slice of pie, basically. But the events unfolding, the prophecy starting to take place, the unraveling, I think him starting to not like being overshadowed is a component of that.

• 56:50Speaker 04

  And I think also witnessing the actual violence of Zeus, where he says, you know, like you're you're being like dad right now. Yeah, there there's that where once that happens, he is witnessing Zeus be violent to Hera. He is witnessing Zeus be violent to his other brother. He's seeing him be a tyrant. He's like, no, this is too far. Like this, when you were just, you know, keeping the order going, a blah, blah, blah, and you weren't actually causing violence to, you know, the Olympians, because that's that's something I'll talk I love to talk about later is stepping outside the realm of the Olympians, but still in the gods because that is so beautifully done. Um, is uh, yeah, I think it's the it's seeing violence within the own family and seeing Zeus be the

• 57:37Speaker 04

  Thing that they rebelled against, you know, the violence that they pushed back against. And they established this new world order, but now he is being like the thing before. That's where there's a problem because it's no longer sort of what they agreed upon, I guess, and what they were okay with. In the beginning, because now he is being the tyrant. Now he is being the abusive father. And that is, it's like triggering the trauma.

• 58:02Speaker 03

  Yep.

• 58:02Speaker 04

  Poseidon's brain. And so he's going, oh, no, no, no, no, we need to get out and stop this. This is too far.

• 58:10Speaker 03

  Yeah. And it, and it's again, going back to this recognition of like patriarchy harms everyone. But you, certain people are privileged in that system to an extent that they'll turn a blind eye.

• 58:23Speaker 04

  Yes.

• 58:23Speaker 03

  To it until, as you pointed out, target, uh, Zeus starts to target the family itself.

• 58:29Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 58:29Speaker 03

  Because again, we see Poseidon engaging casual cruelty by drowning a woman in the pool and sitting below watching her drown. Like dang.

• 58:40Speaker 04

  That was something I, I like the casual, I think casual cruelty is like the perfect phrase for that because when I, I watched that for the first time last summer. And then when I rewatched it again this week, I still couldn't process that scene. I was just like, what the fuck is the point of this? This is so weird and uncomfortable. And that's, it's, it's the display of casual cruelty. You're right. Like that's, that's the perfect.

• 59:05Speaker 03

  I feel like that is officially going to be the title now. Casual cruelty.

• 59:11Speaker 04

  Slash casual cruelty Y.

• 59:16Speaker 03

  Yeah, because, because that is what very much marks the godliest of the gods.

• 59:21Speaker 04

  Yes.

• 59:22Speaker 03

  Um, in a lot of this, and I think, I think that's a good chance now for us to maybe look at the underworld gods. Because they are distinctive in a lot of ways from that.

• 59:32Speaker 04

  Well, there and also in the way that like I was saying, Dionysus interacts with humans, they're also the other gods that have the closest contact with humans. As sort of people and sort of what, what's happening and they're much more, um, they're not just aware of what, you know, the gods are doing in terms of like basically harvesting, you know?

• 59:49Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 59:49Speaker 04

  The souls or whatever, um, they're the ones who actually have to be faced with it.

• 59:54Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 59:55Speaker 04

  Compared to the other gods, they don't have to see the consequences of their actions, you know? They don't have to feel the weight of that. They're above it all, quite literally. While the weight of it is quite literally on the underworld. So.

• 1:00:09Speaker 03

  Yeah, well, and it it just looking at how like Poseidon and Zeus in particular, like just randomly kill people like.

• 1:00:16Speaker 04

  Yep.

• 1:00:17Speaker 03

  Honestly, love the scene of the skeet shooting of the ball boys.

• 1:00:20Speaker 04

  Yes.

• 1:00:21Speaker 03

  Hilarious, horrifying, but hilarious.

• 1:00:27Speaker 03

  And and it's like, if you think about it, though, it's like they're viewing it. As the system like, like humans are chattel, right?

• 1:00:34Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 1:00:35Speaker 03

  Oh, we have to remove them from the mortal realm in order to. Get our me underwater and you know, you could, that's a huge commentary on how we treat. Our natural resources, our food sources and things like that of. Yeah, how indifferent are a large population of people to the food they consume?

• 1:00:54Speaker 04

  Yeah, yeah. And just generally labor and just how we treat each other in the world. And it's like, when we view people and food and systems in the world as um commodities and things to be consumed and processed. We remove the life from it, you know, and it's, it's. You know, there's, there's very much so, there should be pushback to that and. You know, I don't know, go fishing, see what it's actually like to. Kill an animal like I've, I, I, I don't, I don't hate saying this, actually, like I'm First Nations, so I, hello, boy. So like, I've been, um, I haven't been hunting myself, but I've been on the processing side of it.

• 1:01:39Speaker 04

  But but also there's a cultural teaching there, right? So like, but that's very removed from Western culture, Western society, and that is where I think people struggle. Um, but you see that same in the show where it's, you know, oh, God, but also just, I love the way the underworld was done too, you know what I mean?

• 1:01:56Speaker 03

  I do too.

• 1:01:56Speaker 04

  Something really beautiful.

• 1:01:58Speaker 03

  Yeah. Oh, God, yeah, well, just deciding to keep it the gray place, right? Keep it at all in gray tones and. The fun, the other funny thing, and we'll probably talk about this more with mortals, but like this, the humans are told about a renewal process, right? Going in the underworld. So like, the gods have also created comfort for the humans. It's like, you might suffer and you may die here in the mortal realm, but don't worry, you can have another chance. And there's like some individuals who buy into it so much. It's like, I.

• 1:02:30Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 1:02:31Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 1:02:32Speaker 04

  I wanted to be a taciturn.

• 1:02:34Speaker 03

  Highest life.

• 1:02:35Speaker 04

  But I wasn't called. Said I got to be an Olympia sacrifice.

• 1:02:38Speaker 03

  Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Like, like you literally have humans just willing to die for the gods. And it isn't like, it, it's a little bit of a, oh, what's the word?

• 1:02:55Speaker 04

  You got it.

• 1:02:56Speaker 03

  End of the week.

• 1:03:00Speaker 03

  It's just, oh God, it's the word that starts with a C. And it has to do with like, thinking, like looking at yourself being pretty. And I.

• 1:03:10Speaker 04

  Yeah, just confidence. Consecrate.

• 1:03:14Speaker 03

  No.

• 1:03:18Speaker 03

  It's a chance for Zeus to preen, right? Like, oh, what these humans will do for me because I'm so awesome. I know there's another word for it, but preen works as well. Um, vanity. It does not start with a C. I don't know why I thought it did. Vanity. It's vanity.

• 1:03:35Speaker 03

  I think because V words I associate with my name because the last, so like my initials are C V. So I see a V word. I'm like, C comes, obviously. I don't know.

• 1:03:44Speaker 04

  I love that.

• 1:03:45Speaker 03

  It's my brain logic. It's my girl logic happening right now. That's what we're going with.

• 1:03:49Speaker 04

  Oh, I'm so.

• 1:03:51Speaker 03

  Yeah. So, so I think your interpretation of, of Hades is correct. And like Hades is also kind of sounding the alarm, right? He's also coming to terms with. His role in this system that is causing a lot of harm. And so I, I want to ask you about Persephone then, like, what is your take on her? Cause like, she's a fun character and she's very interesting.

• 1:04:17Speaker 04

  Is so beautifully done and so just like, everything I would have hoped for in a character. First of all, I love that she's allergic to pomegranates.

• 1:04:28Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:04:29Speaker 04

  Like, oh, I love that. I love that, like, sort of like callouts to, um, why are you staring at me? My son, my son never does this, so it's freaking me out a little bit.

• 1:04:38Speaker 03

  It's so cute.

• 1:04:39Speaker 04

  My son, I don't know, people recording it, I mean, my cat. He's sitting right behind me.

• 1:04:44Speaker 03

  Fur babies, we know, we know. We love, we stan.

• 1:04:46Speaker 04

  Um, but I love her at that final dinner where Zeus starts rationing them and her saying, I don't, why did you make up that story? Which also, I love that the gods are the ones who make the myths and throw them out into the world, that implication. She goes, why did you make up that story? It makes it sound bad. And sort of that realization of Dionysus then realizing like, he's like, wait, you, you love my uncle? And she's like, yes, of course I do. This is a decision I made. She's like, this, I made this choice. Cause she genuinely loves Hades. And you see that care where she sees her husband is exhausted and worn out and they work. And I think what's interesting too, as well, is they work side by side.

• 1:05:28Speaker 04

  They're not, they're not sort of existing in each other's realms, doing their own thing. They have the same goal and mission. They are the ultimate sort of like what we, a good couple should be and how they support each other. And she's seeing he is at his tipping point right now. He is exhausted. He is overwhelmed. He has just been horribly attacked by his brother. She needs to be the one who supports and she knows what he wants to do. She needs to help in the ways that she can. So, you know, she makes sure, or if yes, and you ready to see, get back. She makes sure they go back and she is, she's just such this, this beautiful, amazing character. I love her so much.

• 1:06:05Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 1:06:06Speaker 04

  So beautiful.

• 1:06:07Speaker 03

  And I think what's interesting, both in how they characterized her, but also in her casting, is that she is othered from the Olympians. She is a black woman. And Hera, I, I think mentions like invites, like invites her up for dinner. It's like, and it won't be catered, so bring your own sandwich.

• 1:06:26Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 1:06:27Speaker 03

  So she does.

• 1:06:28Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 1:06:28Speaker 03

  And she's the one who like goes to.

• 1:06:31Speaker 04

  And she's not embarrassed about it, too.

• 1:06:33Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:06:33Speaker 04

  She's just like, yeah, I did. And Diana, kids look, do you have another one? No.

• 1:06:39Speaker 03

  No. And you can see that she is othered from like, she's someone who seems to have married into the family and like the whole family didn't necessarily agree on that.

• 1:06:50Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 1:06:51Speaker 03

  Which again, kind of ties into this, I have like this union was really a love match between Hades and Persephone.

• 1:06:57Speaker 04

  And it makes me really wanna see Demeter, like what they would have done with her. Because.

• 1:07:03Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:07:03Speaker 04

  You know, Demeter is also such an interesting character in the bits that we know. And we have the huge, you know, hymn to Demeter. So how, if this is the Persephone we're getting.

• 1:07:13Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:07:13Speaker 04

  Who would be the Demeter?

• 1:07:15Speaker 03

  That's why I'm wondering if like it almost would have, I would have almost viewed this as being maybe.

• 1:07:25Speaker 03

  I forget, oh, cuz Zeus is supposed to be Persephone's father. I feel like there's that, that isn't.

• 1:07:30Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 1:07:31Speaker 03

  I'm really curious who Demeter would be in this world. And I think it was a smart choice to not include her to allow Persephone to be this outside agent, because as you pointed out, she makes sure Orpheus and Herodoty ends up back in the moral. She is helping

• 1:07:47Speaker 04

  Humans.

• 1:07:47Speaker 03

  dismantle the family, basically.

• 1:07:49Speaker 04

  Mm hmm.

• 1:07:49Speaker 03

  Um, and it's being done out of love for Hades and for just, she sees what harm is being done to him and this family. And she's like, I don't wanna be a part of, I'm not a part of it.

• 1:08:00Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 1:08:00Speaker 03

  I'm not gonna pretend to be a part of it. I'm going to. I versus like, you know, how we talked about Hera is someone who is co-opting the patriarchal power to survive.

• 1:08:11Speaker 04

  Mm hmm.

• 1:08:12Speaker 03

  Persephone feels like someone who's actively dismantling it.

• 1:08:15Speaker 04

  Yes.

• 1:08:15Speaker 03

  And I think their casting choices were very well done to show that.

• 1:08:19Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 1:08:20Speaker 03

  For those reasons.

• 1:08:21Speaker 04

  Oh, man.

• 1:08:23Speaker 04

  Yeah.

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• 1:10:29Speaker 04

  God, she's just such a... She's so well done. So beautiful, so stunning, so...

• 1:10:37Speaker 03

  No nonsense.

• 1:10:38Speaker 04

  Yeah, and like, but like, and she, it's very similar. Like her and Hera actually kind of remind me of each other in the way that they sort of hold power and embody power and have power. But you're right, in the, they go about it in different ways.

• 1:10:54Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:10:54Speaker 04

  Um, but they are both. We can't deny that these are both two incredibly powerful, confident, strong women.

• 1:11:01Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:11:02Speaker 04

  We're just seeing different, different sides of a coin.

• 1:11:04Speaker 03

  Yeah, that's why I'm wondering if Demeter could have actually been a mortal woman. Or like, I feel like you could actually do something really interesting with Demeter. Um, in this story, but I think you would have to be done in a way that would make Persephone outside of the family in some regards.

• 1:11:20Speaker 04

  Well, because I'm trying to remember the original, like, the twelve gods. The twelve Olympians.

• 1:11:26Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:11:26Speaker 04

  Um, because I know there's one that flip flops in and out, and I just can't remember if it's Hestia or, um, Demeter. And I feel like it's Demeter, which then would be really interesting because then she is not a part of the Olympians.

• 1:11:39Speaker 03

  Mm hmm.

• 1:11:40Speaker 04

  Um, but also, okay, we had random Hestia thought, Hestia was a puppy that Zeus loved. Did you, do you remember that?

• 1:11:48Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:11:50Speaker 04

  Isn't that crazy? He's like, you loved once, remember Hestia? You loved Hestia, father killed him and you brought him back.

• 1:11:59Speaker 03

  Yep.

• 1:12:00Speaker 04

  And I, that, like, that's such a small little detail that, um, first of all, I love because Hestia never gets mentioned in any, we don't, we don't have stories about her. So she is not really, this, people don't think of her in the same way, I think, that they think of the other gods because she just doesn't exist in that way. But she represents the heart of the home. She's the hearth. And what is, what is a puppy if not that?

• 1:12:23Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:12:23Speaker 04

  You know?

• 1:12:24Speaker 03

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:12:24Speaker 04

  Beautiful.

• 1:12:25Speaker 03

  Yeah. Yeah, I, I, and that's, you know, that goes, we'll talk about prophecies more next time too, but like, you know, what really highlights the fact that Zeus is human underneath it all is because he has this prophecy. And not only does he have this prophecy, he's obsessed with it.

• 1:12:43Speaker 04

  Truly.

• 1:12:44Speaker 03

  To, to the point, like, and I think I, I can't wait to, like.

• 1:12:50Speaker 03

  I'm kind of saving the fates more for the next conversation because it's a they're a really odd.

• 1:12:55Speaker 04

  Yeah, I would love to touch on them a bit in this, but not maybe not in the context of what what you're thinking. We can save that for later because I want to talk about them and other gods.

• 1:13:04Speaker 03

  Yeah, yeah, definitely. Well, because we'll talk about them. But like my thing is like they make a point as like the prophecies, all humans have one.

• 1:13:12Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 1:13:13Speaker 03

  And I love like the fact that we see three, three, three, four characters have the same prophecy and they all read completely different meanings into it. That is based on their own life experience. I love that.

• 1:13:25Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 1:13:25Speaker 03

  And I think the whole storyline with King Minos and his son Asterion. Um, how like he actually just kind of ignored his prophecy. He put his son in a labyrinth and like, and then just didn't think about it.

• 1:13:40Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 1:13:40Speaker 03

  And it wasn't until he was being forced to reckon and challenge the prophecy. That the prophecy is brought about. And I thought that was a really interesting take on how prophecy is something you buy into. And if you buy into it, you're gonna, uh, what are they predetermined or something like that?

• 1:13:59Speaker 04

  Uh, yeah. No, I hear what you're saying.

• 1:14:02Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:14:04Speaker 03

  All the words that I learned in college and I'm quickly forgetting.

• 1:14:08Speaker 04

  Uh, I think that's the point of a college.

• 1:14:10Speaker 03

  Self fulfilling prophecy, there you go, those sort of things, right? And so it's like, if you, you know, you heard it once and like, it was something like that. I think Prue does that too. Um, she's like, it was this and I interpreted it as that. And it was like the most benign thing you'd ever heard. You're like, yeah. That's all that's all I meant. That's, um, so I like that. I like that. That's an aspect that is reminding us that Zeus is human.

• 1:14:35Speaker 04

  Yeah, yeah. And it's interesting. He has prophecy. We don't hear about any of the other gods having a prophecy. That's weird.

• 1:14:41Speaker 03

  Which I think should bring us to, or anything else you wanted to say about Persephone? Cause I've got one more character to talk about.

• 1:14:50Speaker 04

  Nothing I can think of about, I just that I, by God, do I love that, that version of her so much. Oh God, the, the portraits that all of the gods have of themselves, like Hera has her own beautiful portrait in her bathroom of her being a badass bitch. Zeus has so many. And then in, in Hades and Persephone's bedroom, there's this beautiful one of them standing next to each other. There, you know, it kind of looks at like, what's that, like Gothic American one?

• 1:15:17Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:15:17Speaker 04

  You know, it looks like that, but their Hades is smiling in it. They look happy and it's like, oh, love. I guess it's love.

• 1:15:27Speaker 04

  Oh, I love it so much. Let's just say, I love Hades and Persephone in this. It's so beautiful.

• 1:15:32Speaker 03

  They're really, they're really well done, really interesting.

• 1:15:35Speaker 04

  Exactly.

• 1:15:36Speaker 03

  I liked that they were differentiated from the Olympians in a lot of ways. So it was very well done. Which brings me to our final character, which is one of the most interesting ones is Prometheus. Cause Prometheus is our narrator.

• 1:15:50Speaker 04

  Yep.

• 1:15:51Speaker 03

  As well as the, the, he's orchestrating

• 1:15:54Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 1:15:55Speaker 03

  events to bring about the, the prophecy. To bring about the ruin of the family. And he's also someone who breaks the fourth wall to talk to us.

• 1:16:03Speaker 04

  Constantly and consistently. I love him walking with Zeus and Zeus is spewing nonsense and he's just looking back at us like, can you, do you hear this guy? And I'm like, yes, Prometheus, I do hear this guy. You and I, same, same boat, man. Same boat. Different day, same eagle.

• 1:16:21Speaker 03

  Yeah. And, and he also, um, I won't call it casual cruelty, but he does, he commits a cruel act against Charon.

• 1:16:32Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 1:16:33Speaker 03

  For the sake of bringing about this fate.

• 1:16:36Speaker 04

  Yes.

• 1:16:36Speaker 03

  And it

• 1:16:39Speaker 03

  I think it's done with care, but it's also like, it's interesting because he's also immortal. He's also part of this meander water system. That he chooses to sacrifice. Not only something that's very important to him, but like the life of someone, right? Like who didn't choose that for themselves?

• 1:16:59Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 1:16:59Speaker 03

  Um, for this believed greater good.

• 1:17:03Speaker 04

  Mm hmm.

• 1:17:04Speaker 03

  And so I like that. There's a little hint of that, like a little hint of that cruelty. But you, you know, when are monstrous actions, cruel actions done for the greater good? And like, you know, when does that eventually slip into these selfish actions that people would say is evil? Um, I think, I think they played with that really well, and I think Prometheus was kind of an example of that.

• 1:17:28Speaker 04

  And he's an interesting character because in a lot of ways, like Prometheus within Greek myth is a, is a trickster god. In the way he operates because he kind of goes against.

• 1:17:43Speaker 04

  The gods in order to help people and that's like the often the role of trickster, you know, that's what Raven does. He, he brings us, uh, he steals the sun and he releases that to us. He's not doing it. And, and like the thing with tricksters too, um, where I'm like, this is where I don't think Prometheus sits into it as well as I think. Uh, people would like him to is trick, tricksters in my viewpoint, don't do it for the sake of people. They do it because they want to, like they are chaotic neutral through and through. But Prometheus does care about people like that's something we see in the myth. And I think that is something we see within chaos as well is there is an affection for humanity there.

• 1:18:20Speaker 04

  Um, and there's a seeing of it and, um, I think it's interesting that he brings up, you know, like it's all, he makes it very clear and very obvious that he and Zeus were raised together. But he never talks about him like a brother. It's always like a friend.

• 1:18:34Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 1:18:35Speaker 04

  Which. I think hints at sort of the, the way, uh, the Greek pantheons.

• 1:18:44Speaker 04

  And spiritual, uh, not spirituality, religion, quotation marks, um, thought about their gods and their relations to each other. Because we have the Olympians and they're held up as sort of like this. They are the gold standard, they're the third generation, you know? And this is kind of what I wanted to talk about bringing in the fates and the furies and the such is that even in

• 1:19:09Speaker 04

  OG quotation marks, Greek myth, the Greek myth from antiquity, we see that while Zeus is all powerful and he is described as such, there are certain forces even he cannot subvert. And those are the older gods, which are the off, the ones that are more nebulous, that kind of uh, rule over concepts where we see the fates and we see the furies. And they are gods, but they e- exist outside of the realm of the Olympians and of the order that the Olympians create. And I, I love the way that this show does, shows that and Prometheus is also a part of that, right? Like Prometheus is a um, Titan.

• 1:19:53Speaker 03

  Mm hmm.

• 1:19:53Speaker 04

  And so he is like technically of the generation of Zeus's parents. So it's, it's almost like he is an elder to him in some ways, but talks about them being raised to each other, but they're not of the same family. And not of the same stock. And I just love the way that this show has played with that in showing us Prometheus in this ways and of showing us the fates in this way. Zeus, he can't do anything about the fates, they're always going to be, he can't do anything about the furies. They will always be and they exist outside of his order.

• 1:20:28Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:20:28Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 1:20:29Speaker 03

  And I think that's one of those open ended questions that I had, because there is a line that when the furies are introduced, Promethea, Prometheus says they're as old as the gods, actually they're older than the gods. And I'm like, but we've also established like the gods as Zeus and his family exists, exist.

• 1:20:46Speaker 03

  Um, through the discovery of meander water, through the extraction of soul and then the creation of the system to extract meander water.

• 1:20:52Speaker 04

  Yep.

• 1:20:53Speaker 03

  And so like, the question then becomes is like, then what exactly are the furies and the fates?

• 1:20:58Speaker 04

  Exactly.

• 1:20:59Speaker 03

  How do they fit into this system?

• 1:21:01Speaker 04

  Well, and then like, what was his father? What was Cronos? Because you know, Zeus didn't have this power until essentially he learned how to use meander water. And he starts with taking his father and he gets, and he becomes power hungry and he does it more and more and more and more and more.

• 1:21:19Speaker 04

  Do did Cronos have the same thing happening? And if so, why didn't his son already know about it?

• 1:21:25Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:21:26Speaker 04

  And also, because like the furies and the fates are so outside of sort of this meander water system, as you were saying, it's like, they don't need it.

• 1:21:36Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:21:36Speaker 04

  So what is happening here? And like, I think it's, it points to, you know, if we think of the Olympians as sort of this representation of patriarchy and capitalism and sort of Western society, the fates and the, the furies and sort of these other things are the things that just are. It's sort of like, when I think about um, environmentalism and I'm like, look, the earth is gonna be fine. I hate, I like, I hate saying this.

• 1:22:02Speaker 03

  Yep.

• 1:22:02Speaker 04

  Because some people get really pissed about it. I'm like, look, the earth will be fine. We will die and thousands of years will pass and the earth will be fine. We're gonna die. We're killing ourselves and maybe that's fine. I don't know.

• 1:22:14Speaker 03

  Yep, that's the, it's like, we're, it's like, when we say we're destroying the planet, what we're destroying is our own biome.

• 1:22:21Speaker 04

  Exactly. But I think that in that sense, that's what the furies and the fates sort of represent. They are the things that just are. And they are the, you know, the order may fall, the family may fall, all that stuff. Fate is still gonna exist.

• 1:22:36Speaker 03

  Yep.

• 1:22:36Speaker 04

  And the furies are still gonna exist because they are not something that is concrete and um, physical and can be manipulated. They just are.

• 1:22:46Speaker 03

  I like, I like, I like that because it also kind of ties into this mystery we have with Canaeus. So I won't go too deep, but like Canaeus is shown to have the ability to bring the souls back. Yeah. Like not to life, but to return the souls to their shell. I'm not sure the best way so that they can. Like there is this sense, like there is an actual renewal process. There is that maybe even the gods don't actually know what it is. Like they, they just call it renewal. They don't actually know what happens. Once souls are removed from this meander water process. But Canaeus has the ability to basically reverse what the gods are doing.

• 1:23:28Speaker 03

  And, and where does that come from? What's that come from? Something that is maybe just more inherently in all of us that just is, like you said.

• 1:23:38Speaker 03

  And isn't manufactured. It isn't. Yeah.

• 1:23:43Speaker 04

  Yeah, like where, what, what is that? Who knows?

• 1:23:49Speaker 04

  What are the things called that go through the thingies? I don't, I don't know Star Wars.

• 1:23:53Speaker 03

  Oh, mitochondrians?

• 1:23:55Speaker 04

  Mitochondrians, the mitochondria is the powerhouse of the cell. Oh my God, Canaeus is the mitochondria.

• 1:24:04Speaker 03

  The powerhouse of the cell.

• 1:24:11Speaker 04

  God, I love it.

• 1:24:14Speaker 04

  God, that's beautiful. Yeah, but like, I love however then that like Prometheus.

• 1:24:22Speaker 04

  Prometheus in that sense is so. He can, he is not part of the family in the order because Zeus has physically removed him. He is not sort of, yeah, he is allowed to have meander water in some sense. But I don't think he needs it, quite frankly. I, because I don't think he is of those people who does it.

• 1:24:41Speaker 03

  So interestingly enough, Zeus keeps telling him to drink the water.

• 1:24:45Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 1:24:45Speaker 03

  And Prometheus appears to be reluctantly doing so. I also wondering if like he is actually not like he's just pretending to like that. That was something I picked up on my second watch through and.

• 1:24:59Speaker 03

  So one of my thoughts I had when you're talking about him as like a trickster god or like, I thought one thing that's in, yeah, one thing that's interesting about him is that in order to bring about this fate, horrible things are happening to the mortals.

• 1:25:16Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 1:25:16Speaker 03

  Zeus is pissed off and he's like, I need them to start behaving and respecting me again. So like Zeus is just,

• 1:25:24Speaker 03

  a- and we talk, we hear about all of the people that are like, the underworld is getting, um, there's too many, too many dead people coming. And so again, that's kind of, it's the same rhetoric that I've heard of like, oh, our systems aren't working for us. We just got to dismantle them. But it's like, but what har- like, you can agree with that. You can definitely agree with that. But it's like, but you also have to acknowledge what harm happens because the few things the system gets right and helps protect, like they too are destroyed.

• 1:25:56Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 1:25:57Speaker 03

  And there is a human cost to that. And again, it goes back to this question of like, you know, what actions, what choices do we make for the greater good? But you know, when does that go from a good action to an evil action?

• 1:26:12Speaker 04

  Yeah. And what does it look like when you full sail dismantle a system and descend into chaos?

• 1:26:20Speaker 03

  Right. And the interesting thing that we see, yeah, the interesting thing we see at the very end is it seems that like Zeus, at least Zeus can no longer exert power over Prometheus like he had previously. And there's some kind, and I, I believe Prometheus sits on the throne at the very end.

• 1:26:41Speaker 04

  In Zeus's robe.

• 1:26:43Speaker 03

  So is this, did Prometheus then just bring about the ruin of the family to instigate?

• 1:26:52Speaker 03

  A completely new system, a similar system with him on top and in charge?

• 1:26:58Speaker 03

  We don't know.

• 1:26:59Speaker 04

  We don't know.

• 1:27:00Speaker 03

  We don't know. Like, how good is Prometheus at the end of the day? And I, my, my, yeah, still a god at the end of the day. Is he drinking the meander water? May, so like, I, I think there's like, I like it, it's ambiguous. It's like, this could really go a couple of different ways. My last question is like, what do we actually make the fact that he is speaking to, like, directly speaking to us? He's not speaking to this world of modern Olympians. And like, it's kind of cool. Like, we, we talk about when you're on Crete, you see like this anachronistic world that like, there's payphones. There's, there's like things that hint that like, it's modern, but it's not quite modern.

• 1:27:45Speaker 03

  And, and like, we see this similar in other media with like, when myth times are represented, we usually see like, fifth century Athens myth time represented. We don't see a lot of Bronze Age popping up. And so it's like, I thought that was a really interesting setting. So like, this is very much familiar but removed. And again, Prometheus is not talking to them. He's talking to us.

• 1:28:09Speaker 04

  Yeah. Oh, I think this is what makes the show powerful as well, is that it is directly engaging with the audience and asking the audience to think about the themes. It's not just hinting at it. It's not just like, here's the show, here's some themes. You're getting a character who is helped orchestrate, not orchestrate, but helped allow the path for this, um, degrading of the system. You see him interacting directly with us. He is not just telling the story, but he is looking us in the eye and saying to us, pay attention. Look at this. You know, when Zeus, like I was saying, when Zeus is spouting his bullshit, they're walking along the, the path of the, of the fountains at Villa de Ast.

• 1:28:53Speaker 04

  And, um, he keeps looking, you know, the camera's behind the shoulder. I thought that was such a beautiful shot because it felt like we were walking right. Behind, you know, sneaking along right there and keeps looking back at us just whenever Zeus spouts his bullshit. He's just like, do you hear that? Do you hear that? It's like, what's that? Jim from the office looking at the camera like, like, so he is, he is directly asking us, the audience, to think about these things and to engage with these themes and to engage with the story to such an extent that it's not just for funs, zues and entertainment, but this is something we should be carrying with us. And there is something, there's something very powerful that, that

• 1:29:36Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:29:37Speaker 04

  And it's the power of stories, I think, too, as well.

• 1:29:39Speaker 03

  It is. And this is something I said in our, our live audience show, because like, one of the last questions we asked is like, what should the audience be taking away from this? And like

• 1:29:53Speaker 03

  Start right. For me, what it was like, it's, it feels like everything's gone to hell. By the end of the season, like, right? Like, we're, we're left on a precipice at this point.

• 1:30:03Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 1:30:04Speaker 03

  And there's so much possibility, but what, what's really cool is like, there's so much possibility. And we, when we get to talk about the mortal characters, they have just taken control of their own stories.

• 1:30:16Speaker 04

  Yep.

• 1:30:17Speaker 03

  And they have the power to do something. And my, like, it gives me hope, like, that felt so empowering.

• 1:30:25Speaker 04

  Yeah, yeah. There was, it did, it felt like a direct address. It was, it felt like we were being involved in the tale. Um, it wasn't sort of like this patronizing, sort of like, look at the world, look at, you know, this is an allegory for patria, um, for patriarchy. It's, it's like, hey, hey. It's like really say, asking us, it's the eye contact, this recognition of the people behind the screen. Um, and of us and, I don't know, that's, that's storytelling, you know, and that's, um,

• 1:31:01Speaker 04

  Ah, it's just beautiful.

• 1:31:02Speaker 03

  That's really good storytelling.

• 1:31:05Speaker 04

  Yeah, engaging. It's, you know, in it, it's um. It's reminding the viewer that we are people too, in the way that all the people and all the characters in this story are being confronted with either their own humanity or the humanity around them. It's also constantly asking us to, hey, hey, hey, remember, you're a part of this. You are also human. You are also capable of these things and all these grand stories and it's.

• 1:31:34Speaker 04

  It pulls us in, we are included in the story, which is something that. Ah, God, it's, you know, it's so much fun when you feel like you're a part of it.

• 1:31:43Speaker 03

  Yes. Yeah, there's nothing like watching something where you feel written out of the story.

• 1:31:48Speaker 04

  Yeah, yeah. And not important and not.

• 1:31:51Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:31:52Speaker 04

  Like, you know, stories for the sake of stories are fun, that's great, but it's sort of the thing where um. It's like when I meet people who say they're apolitical and I'm like, how?

• 1:32:04Speaker 03

  I made the weirdest face I know, but like, I'm like, ew.

• 1:32:08Speaker 04

  It's the sense where it's, everything we do in life exists within some sort of um. Oh, binary is the only word that's coming up right now, but that's not right. But within some sort of.

• 1:32:22Speaker 04

  Lens, I guess.

• 1:32:23Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 1:32:23Speaker 04

  You know, how can, you can't be apolitical, everything in life is political. You can't be, um, you know, you're either for things or you're not, every sort of story that created has an agenda. Everything has bias, bias is natural and normal, as long as we're aware of it and willing to change it when confronted with it. You know, that.

• 1:32:45Speaker 04

  It's a reflection of agency and I think um, seeing a story that recognizes that. That recognizes the lens and recognizes the bias and recognizes the politicalness of things and.

• 1:33:00Speaker 04

  Directly engages that with the audience and is not just saying you're coming along for the ride, it's saying you're a part of the ride. You are in this ship with us is powerful. And Prometheus as the character who does that makes sense to me because within myth, you know, he is the one who he takes care of humans. So this is why like I struggle to think of him as a trickster figure because I don't think trickster figures are supposed to give a shit about humans. They do what they want. Prometheus loves humans and he, you know, he gets fired to humans because he loves them. He makes sure humans get the choice, um, choice cut of this, the sacrifice because it's what will sustain them because he loves humans and wants to make sure humans are taken care of. So it makes sense that

• 1:33:45Speaker 04

  he is our narrator and he is the one who is pulling us into the story because he is, he is the one who cares about not just the human characters in the story, but the human characters on the other side of the screen, outside of it, the, the us, the viewer.

• 1:33:56Speaker 03

  Oh, an applause. Yes.

• 1:34:02Speaker 04

  Pour moi.

• 1:34:03Speaker 03

  Yes. Oh my God. Like, and again, going back to the clip you'll hear from Joel, like, this is why it's so fun to talk about these things with people. Like I've just met Michaela for the first time today, you guys. Look at this beautiful conversation.

• 1:34:21Speaker 04

  Oh my God, a friendship is blossoming, me.

• 1:34:24Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 1:34:25Speaker 04

  A scandalous. I'll treat you back, baby girl.

• 1:34:31Speaker 03

  We've already bonded over cats. Like there was no going back after that.

• 1:34:36Speaker 04

  We eat Gucci.

• 1:34:38Speaker 03

  All right. Well, do you have any final thoughts on any of the gods? We definitely get to talk more.

• 1:34:48Speaker 04

  I want, I want to be Hera when I grow up, says the thirty, almost thirty one year old woman. I want a beer.

• 1:34:55Speaker 03

  Hey, she, she's a gorgeous woman who looks to be in her fifties or sixties. So you definitely can grow into that.

• 1:35:02Speaker 04

  I want that tongue necklace so bad. Like unfortunately, it is absolutely something I would wear too. I'm like, oh God, I would love to see Hermes, but that's just me being selfish because I am Hermes. I want to see that. I'm almost a little upset. We didn't see Athena because Athena not being on Zeus's side. I'm like, what did he do?

• 1:35:25Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:35:27Speaker 04

  What did he do? How did he piss off the one that, you know?

• 1:35:29Speaker 03

  The one that you really thought was gonna... Oh, I remembered my wayward thought that like disappeared forever ago about Hera. I was gonna say Hera to me actually incorporates some aspects of Aphrodite. Um, in terms of like she, she also holds power and sway over Zeus because she is the one who actually helps Hera to seduce Zeus. She's like Zeus eventually gets pissed off and makes her fall in love with a mortal

• 1:35:57Speaker 04

  Yep.

• 1:35:58Speaker 03

  man to get back at her for making him fall in love with mortal women all the time. And I like, so like some of the sexual, like the, the relationships outside of the marriage. Cause like Aphrodite is known for that too. I feel like that was pulling a bit from Aphrodite into Hera's character.

• 1:36:14Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 1:36:14Speaker 03

  That was the one stray thought that I, I finally captured.

• 1:36:18Speaker 04

  Yay. It came back. If you love it, let it go. This one loves you too.

• 1:36:26Speaker 03

  I mean, it is a love goddess. So she's like, I want my little bit at the end. Thank you.

• 1:36:32Speaker 04

  Aphrodite, it's daddy.

• 1:36:38Speaker 04

  Out of this, it's Papusa.

• 1:36:42Speaker 03

  You know, the Papusa.

• 1:36:45Speaker 04

  God, I love it. God, top tier choice thing for casting, honestly. Like, I can't get over it. It's so good. Oh my God. Yeah, no, I don't think I have really any other thoughts about the gods other than I love them. I love the casting. I, I know we'll talk more about the fates next time, which I'm so happy about, but all of the fates casting.

• 1:37:07Speaker 03

  So good.

• 1:37:08Speaker 04

  Oh, Miss Eddie has her herself, our queen. God, made me so happy. Oh. I can't get over it. I'm poly. Oh, I don't polyphemous.

• 1:37:19Speaker 03

  Forgot about polyphemous.

• 1:37:20Speaker 04

  Yeah, I, I, I hope he wasn't in, you know, the cave at the end. So I, I like to believe he wasn't, but.

• 1:37:27Speaker 03

  Good point.

• 1:37:28Speaker 04

  Who knows?

• 1:37:28Speaker 03

  I don't think so. It's, it seemed pretty empty.

• 1:37:31Speaker 04

  Yeah, I hope so. But yeah, I love it. I love the gods. I definitely have wrote more thoughts about the gods than I did about the people, but that's fine.

• 1:37:41Speaker 03

  We, we've got time. We've got time.

• 1:37:42Speaker 04

  I got time to think about it.

• 1:37:46Speaker 03

  Well, I don't know your guys' usual closeouts, so like, I can't fully take over.

• 1:37:50Speaker 04

  No, okay, let me think. Normally, well, I get, Liv will go in and do like the final credits.

• 1:37:56Speaker 03

  Okay.

• 1:37:57Speaker 04

  So I guess we kind of just end.

• 1:37:59Speaker 03

  We just end it on like a cliffhanger? Who knows if season two will show up?

• 1:38:06Speaker 03

  It will, we promise it will, you guys. We have plans.

• 1:38:09Speaker 04

  We'll do it. Uh, yeah, so we'll kind of just be like, peace out, y'all.

• 1:38:13Speaker 03

  Back to Liv, y'all.

• 1:38:14Speaker 04

  Liv, Liv isn't here to say her, you know, I'm Liv and I love the shit. I'm here, though. I'm Michaela and, um, I'm here too.

• 1:38:22Speaker 03

  I'm Kristin. I'm also here?

• 1:38:25Speaker 04

  Hell, yeah.

• 1:38:26Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:38:27Speaker 04

  Make it a trend.

• 1:38:27Speaker 03

  The end.

• 1:38:28Speaker 04

  Boom.

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