Pod Insights Here's The Thing with Alec Baldwin American Ballet Theater’s Susan Jaffe, onstage and off About this episode Susan Jaffe is a former ballerina who performed for 22 years as a principal dancer with the American Ballet Theater. She is known for iconic roles such as Swan Lake’s Odette and Odile, Kitri in Don Quixote, and Juliet in Romeo and Juliet. Jaffe has performed internationally and her repertoire includes the works of iconic choreographers such as George Balanchine, Jerome Robbins, Twyla Tharp, and Merce Cunningham. After retiring from the stage, Jaffe previously served as the dean for the School of Dance at the University of North Carolina School of the Arts and as the artistic director of Pittsburgh Ballet Theatre. In our conversation, Jaffe shares how she got her start as a ballerina, the impact legendary dancer Mikhail Baryshnikov had on her career, and what it was like reviving ABT after the Covid-19 pandemic.
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2:08 Alec Baldwin? This is Alec Baldwin, and you're listening to Here's the Thing from iHeart Radio. My guest today is a former principal dancer with the American Ballet Theater, who performed iconic roles such as Swan Lake's Odette and Odile at age 19. She has danced around the world and performed the repertoire of iconic choreographers such as George Balanchine, Jerome Robbins, Twyla Tharp, and Merce Cunningham. Since retiring from the stage, Susan Jaffe has served as dean for the School of Dance at the North Carolina School of the Arts and as artistic director for the Pittsburgh Ballet Theater.
2:48 Alec Baldwin? She recently returned to American Ballet Theater as artistic director in 2022. Jaffe has coached generations of dancers. Luckily for her, the desire for young girls to become ballerinas has not changed over time.
3:04 Speaker 06 Years ago, I owned a ballet school, and I said, "The most wonderful thing about owning a ballet school is everybody keeps having babies." And so those babies turn into five and seven-year-olds, and half of them are women, and they want to come to the ballet school. So it's a great business. It was. I don't own it anymore, but it was a great business.
3:25 Alec Baldwin? But I wonder, what is it about? Because for me, like, people say, "Why do you go to the ballet?" Or, "Why do you go to the symphony and stuff like that?" I said, "Just to see people do things I can't do. It's like sports."
3:35 Speaker 06 Yeah.
3:36 Alec Baldwin? And I watch those people do that, and my mouth is on the floor, you know?
3:39 Speaker 06 Yeah.
3:40 Alec Baldwin? Those dancers. When did you realize? Were you encouraged? Were you that baby of a woman who was a dancer? When did you decide you wanted to do that with your life?
3:48 Speaker 06 Well, it was interesting, because when I was younger, before I even got into dance, I had three aspirations. One was either to be a famous actress, or a famous singer, or a princess, a real one.
4:05 Speaker 06 So.
4:06 Alec Baldwin? Still time. Still time.
4:08 Speaker 06 And so, my mother, we had a YMCA across the street. I was about seven. She said, would you like to take a dance class? For me, not knowing what any of this was, I said, absolutely. So she put me in a modern dance class. And we were rolling on the floor and pretending we were ice cream melting or a dog basking in the sun. And I remember saying, my little seven-year-old self said, is this what a princess does? And the answer was no. And across the hallway, I saw the ballet. And there they were. They, they, they were so pretty with their hair pulled up and the little crisscross ribbons around the ankles. And I said to my mother, that's what I want to do.
4:51 Speaker 06 So what was interesting, she did put me in the ballet class. About six months later, and this is true, actually Angelina Ballerina stole this from my own personal story. I had a prophetic dream. And the dream was that I was being raised in the air by my partner. There was a big spotlight on me. And all my classmates were running around me in a circle. And my little eight-year-old brain, I was eight years old at that time, said, oh, I'm a star. And after that, you couldn't stop me. Like, if my mother said, no, no, no, you can't go to ballet anymore, I would have run away from home. I was possessed.
5:32 Alec Baldwin? This was it for you? This was your happy place?
5:34 Speaker 06 Yeah, I was possessed. There was no way anybody was going to stop me. And I remember when I was 10 years old, I announced to my mother that I was going to start drinking coffee because I heard it stunted your growth. And I was going.
5:49 Alec Baldwin? You're being serious?
5:50 Speaker 06 Yeah.
5:50 Alec Baldwin? How old were you?
5:51 Speaker 06 I was 10. I had heard it stunted your growth. And my mom was 5'8", my father was 6'4". And I thought, I can't grow. Because I said to her, I am going to dance with Burishnikov. So I have to drink coffee to make sure that I don't grow too tall. And that's what I, and my mother couldn't stop me. I, there I was with the nescafe every morning.
6:11 Alec Baldwin? Are you kidding me?
6:12 Speaker 06 I'm not kidding.
6:12 Alec Baldwin? How many kids in your family?
6:14 Speaker 06 I have two brothers.
6:15 Alec Baldwin? None of them, were they athletes, sports?
6:18 Speaker 06 Uh, wrestling.
6:19 Alec Baldwin? They were wrestling?
6:20 Speaker 06 Everybody was also playing.
6:21 Alec Baldwin? Kind of the opposite of ballet.
6:21 Speaker 06 Yeah, an instrument, you know. My twin brother went into the military and I said, you know, you and I have the same job. Except when I fall down, I get a bad review, but when you fall down, well, you're dead. So it's, it's the same job.
6:34 Alec Baldwin? You get a Purple Heart.
6:36 Speaker 06 So.
6:37 Alec Baldwin? Suburban Washington you grew up in.
6:39 Speaker 06 Yeah, Maryland, the best of Maryland.
6:41 Alec Baldwin? Now, when you're doing your jobs, plural, teaching and then administrating these big institutions. I've assumed that like sports, there's a lot of sports metaphors here, obviously. You see people who they all have a basic skill set. They're not going to get in the door to see you unless they have that at a certain level. Their athleticism and so forth, and their balance, and all the metrics that you use. What's the magic thing? What's the thing that people have who really are the top of the game?
7:09 Speaker 06 Well, the baseline, as you said, is the technique, the right physicality for ballet and the technique and the strength. But above that, it's the movement quality, it's the presence, it's the ability to interpret. The ability to change the air when you move through space. That's that person that when you're sitting in a room and there are 60 people there, you go to that. And your eyes go to that person and you say, who's that? What is, who is that?
7:41 Alec Baldwin? Is that about beauty as well? Is it like the movies in the same way?
7:43 Speaker 06 It can be, but it's.
7:45 Alec Baldwin? Not always.
7:46 Speaker 06 It's in the movies too. It's a deeper beauty. It's not just beauty, right? It's a deeper beauty because there are a lot of very beautiful dancers out there in the world too. But if you don't have the discipline, the will, the drive, the passion and the extra je ne sais quoi. You are not going to get into a company.
8:08 Alec Baldwin? That's a very good phrase, deeper beauty.
8:10 Speaker 06 Yeah.
8:10 Alec Baldwin? Where I was in acting school at NYU at Strasburg, they made us take a movement class. We had to take a movement class. Luba Ash was our movement teacher. She was a ballet dancer and she had a ballet company. That was all just for inner city schools. It was all for fun and for free. And she was this tough woman, she's tough. And she said, I want you to be in my dance company. And I was like, oh my God, I thought, wow, this is it. I've obviously got the magic power. You know, she thinks I'm gonna be, I'm like 21 years old. And she goes, yeah, I want you to be in my dance company. And we go to like a school and do a performance and the girl comes running on the stage. She jumps in the air, I grab her, I put her up in the air. She rolls into my arms, put her down. And we address the audience and I run off. That's, that's all I do is lift the girl and then go.
8:53 Alec Baldwin? And later on, I said to her, I go, why did you put me in the ballet company? She goes, you were the only guy in the class that could lift the girl. These guys are really puny. They could lift the girl.
9:02 Speaker 06 Oftentimes how the guys.
9:04 Alec Baldwin? Is that true?
9:05 Speaker 06 Yeah, yeah. Well, and also, you know, I think people have misunderstanding about men in ballet. You know, when they're in class and as they get older, you know, there are a lot fewer men than there are women. So that's kind of a kid in a candy store for a man.
9:22 Alec Baldwin? Right.
9:22 Speaker 06 You know, and so they, you know, because they're more rare, they get more opportunities right away, or if they're a really good partner.
9:31 Alec Baldwin? D'Bois.
9:32 Speaker 06 Yeah.
9:33 Alec Baldwin? I knew Jacques very well.
9:34 Speaker 06 Oh, you did.
9:35 Alec Baldwin? And my wife and I were big supporters of NDI. And he'd say that, he didn't hesitate to say that. He was like, I was a straight guy in the world of ballet with all these gorgeous dancers around me.
9:45 Speaker 06 There you go.
9:45 Alec Baldwin? I was a kid in a candy store.
9:47 Speaker 06 Exactly.
9:48 Alec Baldwin? He'd come right out and say.
9:49 Speaker 06 Exactly.
9:49 Alec Baldwin? Yeah. Now, when you come up through the ranks and you're dancing, when does the administrative teaching, talk to me about, in your words, Baryshnikov, Gudinov. You're like when Bernstein goes on, and Lincoln Center, he makes his debut and he nails it.
10:04 Speaker 06 Yeah.
10:05 Alec Baldwin? And you're kind of similar.
10:07 Speaker 06 Yeah.
10:07 Alec Baldwin? You were 18 years old and what happens?
10:10 Speaker 06 So I joined ABT in August.
10:14 Alec Baldwin? They invite you to join.
10:16 Speaker 06 Yes, they invited me to join. I auditioned. I was actually in the second company at the time. Right now, it's called The Studio Company, but it was called Ballet Repertory Company. And so I was in the second company, and we heard that Borishnikov was going to take over the directorship of ABT. So he came to our class and watched our class. And at the end of class, the teacher came up to me and said, "Misha thinks you're very talented." And I remember thinking, I turned around, like, was she talking to somebody behind me? Like, really? I was invited to audition for the company. And it was hundreds of people. And we all had, this was just like a chorus line. We had numbers. And after every combination,
10:58 Speaker 06 they would get rid of 50 people. It was just nail biting. And at the end, I don't know, maybe there were five of us standing there in the middle of the room, and we all were offered contracts. So... To join the company. To join the company. So I joined the company in August of 1980. This was when we just moved into the Michael Bennett Building downtown. This is where we still are, 890 Broadway. So I was learning some solo work. I remember one day, I was looking at the schedule, and it was me and all of the big stars of the company. And I thought, that's a mistake. There must have been a mistake. And so I went up to the office, and I knocked
11:42 Speaker 06 on the door, and I said, "Excuse me, I think you've made a mistake." And the regisseur turned around and looked at me, actually very coldly, and he said, "It wasn't a mistake." And so I backed out of the hall and went to the rehearsal. And this is where we were learning a ballet, or a pas de deux, meaning dance for two, pas de deux, called pas de glave, from this larger ballet, Le Corsaire. And here was little Pian Mi from Bethesda, Maryland, with Gudanov, Gelsy Kirkland, Fernando Mahones, Mariana Chikovska, all these great stars of the company. And I was learning this pas de deux. And about a week later,
12:27 Speaker 06 I got shuffled off to other rehearsals. But it was just such a bizarre experience. Three months later, we were opening at the Kennedy Center, which is 20 minutes from where I grew up. And two of the largest stars of the company who were supposed to dance that pas de deux. Did not show up to the dress rehearsal. And they have had a history of drug use, this couple, and they were also romantically involved. They didn't show up to the dress rehearsal, but as you may well know, full orchestra, the entire crew, you know, the spots, everyone's standing there.
13:06 Alec Baldwin? The big time.
13:06 Speaker 06 Yeah, I mean, this is thousands and thousands and thousands of dollars, and the stars don't show up.
13:12 Alec Baldwin? They're stoned in bed.
13:13 Speaker 06 Exactly. So Misha fired them. And he came up to me and he said, how would you like to go on in the place of this famous star and dance with Gudana?
13:25 Alec Baldwin? And you're 18.
13:26 Speaker 06 I'm 18. And I said, oh, thank you so much, but you know, I'm only 18.
13:29 Alec Baldwin? I got a dentist appointment.
13:30 Speaker 06 I'm supposed to be in the back, and I'm the fifth girl in the back with little heels on, you know, as my debut performance with this company.
13:38 Alec Baldwin? Why did he say that to you? Why?
13:39 Speaker 06 Well, it's interesting because I went on, and the only reason why I know I went on was I had one memory of it, and then there were photographs. That's the only reason why I know that I was actually on. And then after that, everybody wanted to know who I was. So it kind of happened like that. But for years, I kept thinking to myself, now I'm thinking about 10 years, I'm saying this to myself, when are they going to find out I don't know how to do this stuff?
14:07 Alec Baldwin? Very common in our businesses.
14:09 Speaker 06 Yeah, the imposter syndrome.
14:11 Alec Baldwin? Tonight, they're going to find out.
14:12 Speaker 06 Exactly. And so when I finally retired, and then I started a school, and somebody gave me a tape of my first performance, that performance, and I looked at it, I said, oh, I see why he wanted to push me, because it was a quality. There was a quality that when I, fast forward, as a teacher, or as a coach, seeing that actually, you know, a lot of people have a lot of great qualities, and then there's that someone who has something extra. And I had that. I thought, oh. It took me until I retired to know, I mean, I, you know, eventually I felt like I could be Susan Jaffe after about 10 years. I, I sort of grew into it.
14:57 Speaker 06 But yeah, I could understand why he chose.
15:00 Alec Baldwin? You could see it?
15:01 Speaker 06 Yeah.
15:02 Alec Baldwin? If you looked at yourself objectively, you could see it in your own performance. What's the life of the ballet dancer? And also, I'm thinking about food and eating and nutrition and what's that life like for them when they're at the top, when they're in the company?
15:14 Speaker 06 Yes. Well, now, we are much more aware of making sure that the dancers are more supported, like with mental wellness in schools, everywhere now. There's a big focus on mental health. And I think particularly nowadays because of social media, because of iPhones, computers, et cetera, we, as a society, can be more disconnected from ourselves. And so that will cause more mental anxiety. So we try to make sure that we support young people.
15:48 Alec Baldwin? Some of them struggle?
15:49 Speaker 06 Oh, yeah. I mean.
15:51 Alec Baldwin? Because it's lonely, I would imagine. You're just working so hard. All you do is work.
15:55 Speaker 06 You work, but you love it. You love it, you know?
15:59 Alec Baldwin? They're happy.
16:00 Speaker 06 You're happy.
16:01 Alec Baldwin? That's when they're happy.
16:02 Speaker 06 Dancing, yeah. You're dancing. You love the art form. There's music. Yes, it takes tremendous will to dance and to, you know, your muscles ache or your muscles are cramping or you have a slight injury and or you want to push harder for that jump and you're, you don't have the stamina to get through this solo yet, but you're trying and, you know, and then on top of that, you have to be an artist on top of all of that, right? An interpreter of music, interpreter of space, interpreter of emotion, interpreter of the character, everything. It's so, it's such a, a goal that seems so far out of reach that it keeps you striving and striving and striving to, to do it.
16:43 Speaker 06 And of course, dancers are all perfectionists, which is not so good, you know? I am now a reformed perfectionist, which I'm very proud of. And I try to help dancers understand, it doesn't matter if you do it perfectly today. It also doesn't matter if you do that perfect double pirouette. What matters is that your soul comes across the footlights. That's all. Nobody cares whether or not you got that balance or you did, you know? So they're also focused so much on their technique, even though they're also focused on their artistry, that I try to remind them that, let's look at the bigger picture. But, you know, they have to figure out how to fuel themselves so that they can accomplish their goals, that they can stay strong, they can get stamina.
17:28 Speaker 06 And also, the food helps you to emotionally be more stable, right?
17:34 Alec Baldwin? Food, proper nutrition.
17:35 Speaker 06 Well, if they're not fueling themselves properly.
17:38 Alec Baldwin? Like athletes.
17:39 Speaker 06 Yeah, they can become emotionally unstable. You know, you're hungry all the time. I was that way. I smoked like a fiend when I was a dancer. I quit, actually, before I retired. But I was severely underfueled, just to stay very skinny. And I remember there was this movie, I can't remember what it was. This lady, she was a bride. Her husband left her because he was gay. And she's screaming and crying and somebody stops her from the car. And he says, what's wrong? What's wrong? And she starts telling her story. And then she says, and I'm starving. And she falls to back on the ground. I can't remember the name of the movie. I think it was In N Out or one of those movies. And of course, that hit a nerve in me. While I was watching that.
18:23 Alec Baldwin? Joe Cusack.
18:23 Speaker 06 Yeah. And I started laughing so hard. I couldn't, I actually had to walk out of the theater because I was so distraught. I was laughing so hard because I related to being starving. Now, we are making sure that the dancers don't starve themselves. First of all, it creates more injury, more emotional instability and all those things. And you need to fuel yourself properly, not just, oh, I'm going to eat a bag of potato chips. Properly, so that you can do those amazing feats.
18:57 Alec Baldwin? All my life, around people in movement and in dance, I mean, like athletes, I guess in some sense, in a contact sport. But the toughness to them.
19:06 Speaker 06 Yeah.
19:07 Alec Baldwin? You know, Nuryev was obviously a gay man. But when I met him fleetingly, there was a power from him. Like an athlete, like he was going to play safety for the Giants. Borishnikov, who's different. He was this tiny little sparrow of a man. I met him at Paul Newman's cancer camp.
19:23 Speaker 06 With big muscles.
19:24 Alec Baldwin? Well, no, with the perfect body.
19:26 Speaker 06 Yeah, gorgeous.
19:27 Alec Baldwin? Yeah, he was perfect. But at the same time, they all have a kind of, they all possess a kind of a power, you know? And I was wondering for you, as you come through the ranks, is it still viewed as a woman's world largely?
19:39 Speaker 06 No, I think it's more evened out. I mean, men are still in the parada, although it takes both men and women to make a great parada. The men are still doing the lifting because clearly
19:50 Alec Baldwin? Can't be the other way around.
19:50 Speaker 06 Physics say, you know, a five foot four woman cannot lift a six foot one man over her head and not get injured or fall to the ground. So the men are still lifting the women, but there are a lot more opportunities for men to dance.
20:06 Alec Baldwin? What kind of men are coming into the program now?
20:08 Speaker 06 You know, all kinds. I mean, when they
20:09 Alec Baldwin? Are they largely from one area of the world?
20:11 Speaker 06 No.
20:12 Alec Baldwin? No.
20:12 Speaker 06 They're from all over. They're from all over. And when you walk into the schools and they're all just, you know, their muscles are shaking and they're pushing into the air and they're trying so hard and their eyes are so eager and they want to do so well. It's really, it requires somebody who wants to go above and beyond what a human body can do. And that's why you feel the grit.
20:38 Alec Baldwin? That's why I go there.
20:39 Speaker 06 You feel the grit because it takes such tremendous will to do it.
20:48 Alec Baldwin? Artistic director, choreographer and former ballerina Susan Jaffe. If you enjoy conversations with artists who have conquered the classical repertoire, check out my 2019 episode with Itzak Perlman, recorded live at the NYU Skirball Center. My parents thought that I had a good ear because I could repeat everything, you know, by singing it. And then I said, I want to play the violin. And I think they told me that I had a nice sound. How old were you? I started really when I was like almost five, five years old. Do you know why? What made you do that? I wanted, I wanted, I liked the sound. I loved the sound of the violin. I heard it on the radio. And I said, that's what I want to do.
21:32 Alec Baldwin? To hear more of my conversation with Itzak Perlman, go to here's the thing.org. After the break, Susan Jaffe shares her approach to coaching dancers and her own journey from ballerina to dean and eventually director.
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24:11 Alec Baldwin? I'm Alec Baldwin, and this is Here's the Thing. Over the past 20 years, the world of ballet has become significantly more diverse. I was curious what Susan Jaffe attributes this to and how the ballet world of today compares to when Susan Jaffe began dancing.
24:30 Speaker 06 I think, you know, there were programs that started years and years, like 30 years ago, where dance was brought into, for example, underserved communities. And these programs expanded and as they got more money from foundations, they would bust the kids to the school. They would give them tights, leotards, T-shirts, ballet slippers, et cetera. They would wash them after they were done. They would feed them lunch and then they would send them back to school. So, I mean, even programs like that. And at ABT in 2013, we started something called Project Playa, which was a similar kind of a program.
25:13 Speaker 06 And Misty Copeland was sort of the spokesperson for this Project Playa. So we started that. And as a result of all of that, there are much more black and brown dancers in our company, which is absolutely beautiful. And so we have a beautiful array of all kinds of nationalities, all skin colors. I think it's absolutely beautiful. And also because you get such different points of view artistically as well.
25:40 Alec Baldwin? You go from running the school. How do you get involved with the first managerial position you have is in North Carolina?
25:49 Speaker 06 Yeah, well, I co-ran the school in Princeton for seven years.
25:53 Alec Baldwin? Your school?
25:54 Speaker 06 Yeah. Co-founded it. And I just didn't feel that Princeton was a place for me and that working with children up until the age of 18, it just, it didn't feel like the right fit. I loved them, I loved teaching, I loved all that, but when actually the job of a coach came up after seven years, a coach came up at ABT. So I went back to New York and I was there for two years and
26:22 Alec Baldwin? Coaching.
26:23 Speaker 06 Coaching. And I loved it.
26:25 Alec Baldwin? What about it do you love?
26:27 Speaker 06 I love taking all of the knowledge that I acquired. You know, I, I did so many additional things besides just rehearse. You know, I worked with the dramaturg. I did gyrotonics on the side, I did Pilates, I did all of these things so that I could be as well-rounded as possible. And so it's so fun to sort of download that more quickly, more readily, because when I was younger in the dance company, they didn't go into much depth as far as in the character. And I, I kept feeling like there's something missing, you know, I need more, I need to
27:06 Speaker 06 understand, I need to live these characters as if they're me, so that I can move an audience, because that's what I'm supposed to do. And so I did all of that. So it's really fun to be in the studio and get people to start thinking more deeply about their characters, more deeply about the music, more deeply about the quality of movement, and helping others to become empowered themselves. So also sort of nurturing out what's special about them, because of course you can never make somebody a carbon copy, they just become a bad copy, right? So they have to be, you have to nurture what is special about them. So I love that. I love doing that.
27:49 Alec Baldwin? So it's coaching at ABT, then Princeton?
27:53 Speaker 06 No. So I retired in 2002. I started working with the chairman of the board in 2002. But in 2003, I also opened that school in Princeton. I came back to ABT from 2010 to 2012. And I was asked by the chancellor of the University of North Carolina School of the Arts to come there and be the dean of dance. Actually, there were five arts deans, and then we had a provost. And at first, I said, no, no, no, I've got a great life here.
28:24 Alec Baldwin? So where'd you go?
28:25 Speaker 06 I'm going to Carnegie Hall. I'm going to DC Opera. I'm going to Joe's Pub. I'm running around the reservoir. That was my form of exercise. I met the faculty there, and they were in trouble. It's a long, long story. But I felt a calling to go because I thought, I can help. And one of the things that I wanted to do-
28:48 Alec Baldwin? You're Florence Nightingale.
28:49 Speaker 06 Yeah.
28:50 Alec Baldwin? You want to help people.
28:51 Speaker 06 When I retired from dance was, I want to be of help. I really want to help. So I left, and I went to Winston-Salem, which I had no aspirations to be living in Winston-Salem.
29:05 Alec Baldwin? You didn't want to live in Princeton. You didn't want to live in Hopewell Junction, but you want to go to Winston-Salem?
29:10 Speaker 06 Yeah.
29:11 Alec Baldwin? What's the difference culturally between the two in terms of the arts?
29:14 Speaker 06 Culturally, the main arts in Winston-Salem was the school. We had a music school, drama, design and production, dance, and film. And that was the main kind of culture-
29:29 Alec Baldwin? Hub of culture in the community?
29:30 Speaker 06 Exactly.
29:31 Alec Baldwin? Not much off-campus?
29:32 Speaker 06 There was some, but I, you know, I came from New York, and, you know, you can just be snobbish about the kind of, you know, you get to see the biggest stars here. So, you know, you, okay, the local-
29:44 Alec Baldwin? It is what it is.
29:45 Speaker 06 -theater group is lovely. But, you know, it just- But then I found that the real meat and juice of that place was the community, which, you know, there wasn't that much to do out there in Winston-Salem. So what you did was, this was when I started cooking. I started having dinner parties because that was the way I could get community. And it was wonderful and I loved it there. It actually took me, I was there for eight years. And that's where I really learned how to oversee faculty and to really be a leader in ways that supported the people that I was in charge of overseeing and also help people to understand that they're also responsible.
30:28 Speaker 06 You know, so it was just a really great learning curve for me. And I remember at one point thinking, you know, this is kind of good training to be an artistic director, you know? But I never thought I was going to be an artistic director. And after eight years, and they said the median time for a dean is five to seven years because you burn out.
30:51 Alec Baldwin? Did you, even a little bit?
30:52 Speaker 06 Maybe, yeah. I mean, you, I had other ideas. I wanted to make sort of dual courses for college degree courses. And I, you know, that included choreography and music or dance. And it was, it was gonna be interesting. But I did feel like, gosh, I'm gonna at one point run out of ideas. I basically created my job there. I mean, there were certain things I had to do, but all the extra things that I did, I did on my own. I created a choreographic institute. I created five summer intensives. I did a lot of additional things.
31:27 Alec Baldwin? What did you take away from there? What do you remember most when you were there?
31:32 Speaker 06 It was really how to lead people in a way that would help them to understand, gosh, I really, first, I have to step up to the plate. But number two, it's okay to fail. And being a lifelong learner shouldn't be scary. You know, and this is acting, this is dancing, right? We fail every day. We fail every second. We fail up, right?
31:55 Alec Baldwin? Our aim is to fail.
31:56 Speaker 06 Our aim is to fail, right? And So.
31:58 Alec Baldwin? You got to get that out of the way.
32:00 Speaker 06 Yeah. So when you're dealing with people and, and you say, okay, these are some observations I see in your class and or in your rehearsal that I think could improve. And, you know, first I always said, you know, these are the wonderful things that you do. Here's where you can improve and then, and with something really positive. And I remember this one faculty member, she just looked up at me and she said, thank you for making this not scary. And it really hit me because when I first got there, everybody was very nervous and a little bit defensive about getting any input from their dean. And by the end, everybody was like.
32:39 Alec Baldwin? Staff.
32:39 Speaker 06 Yeah, yeah. Faculty.
32:41 Alec Baldwin? Faculty.
32:42 Speaker 06 More faculty.
32:42 Alec Baldwin? Faculty, I'm sorry.
32:44 Speaker 06 And so then by the end, they were like, oh, this isn't scary. It's great to learn and grow. It's great to have some insight. It's, you know, we all are learning together. And so that really made me feel like, wow, this is really such a responsibility and also full of heart, you know, really.
33:02 Alec Baldwin? Because it sounds to me, before we move on to the next stop on the train here, it sounds to me like it was something that you made your own.
33:08 Speaker 06 Yeah.
33:09 Alec Baldwin? It's like they invited you down there and you were like, what do you want to do?
33:11 Speaker 06 Yeah.
33:12 Alec Baldwin? And you crafted the program.
33:13 Speaker 06 I did.
33:13 Alec Baldwin? Such as it was. And you were really, really, when you left, it was something you had built.
33:17 Speaker 06 Yeah.
33:17 Alec Baldwin? You go to Pittsburgh. This is the COVID era.
33:20 Speaker 06 It was.
33:21 Alec Baldwin? Does Pittsburgh equal COVID to you?
33:23 Speaker 06 It was. We spent every day, all day, because the dancers weren't there. They were at home taking class on Zoom. And my day consisted, I went into the office every day. I was, I never stayed home. I was in the office. Nobody else was in the building, except for me, my assistant, and maybe the CFO. Nobody else was there. And some school staff. And we literally were on Zoom all day long, talking about COVID protocols. Well, we have to tape out 12 feet squares for the dancers. We have to break up the bars. Everybody has to be six feet apart. You know, there have to be hand sanitizer stations at every.
34:05 Alec Baldwin? Dance with a mask on?
34:07 Speaker 06 Oh, yeah.
34:08 Alec Baldwin? Shit.
34:09 Speaker 06 They did. It was insane. And I had to say hard things like, well, if you want to be in the company, you have to get a COVID vaccine, you know?
34:17 Alec Baldwin? They did that. That was the policy at the school.
34:19 Speaker 06 In the company, yeah.
34:21 Alec Baldwin? But the company was at Pitt.
34:23 Speaker 06 In Pittsburgh, yeah. Yeah, so we had a school and we had a company.
34:26 Alec Baldwin? Right, right. So you leave there.
34:29 Speaker 06 So actually, it was really interesting because I bought my dream house. I bought a beautiful house, literally across the bridge from Pittsburgh Ballet Theater. I had three floors, all to myself, a fireplace, a huge chef's kitchen, a big deck overlooking the Allegheny.
34:47 Alec Baldwin? Some cool spaces there. I shot a film there for a while.
34:48 Speaker 06 Oh, yeah, it's cool.
34:49 Alec Baldwin? Nice town.
34:50 Speaker 06 Yeah. Trees, grass, birds. I loved it there. And then Ballet Theater's search firm called and said, we'd like for you to apply.
35:02 Alec Baldwin? For AD or ED?
35:03 Speaker 06 At that point, um, AD.
35:05 Alec Baldwin? Right.
35:06 Speaker 06 And so I, gosh, I thought about it, like, oh, I just bought this house. You know, I'm loving being here, et cetera. But I also said, you know, I'm one of those people, and I know what every artist is. You don't want to be in your grave and have your gravestone say, I wonder what would have happened if I had only tried, right? And so I'm that person. And I said, I will never know if they will choose me if I don't apply. So I applied, and it was a little nail biting. They would, the search firm would let, would go for a month after an interview, giving me no feedback at all. And one of the things that I did
35:46 Speaker 06 because I wasn't invested in getting the job, because I loved where I was. I wanted to get the job, but I also loved where I was. But I, I thought to myself, I'm just going to tell the truth. I'm going to say everything that I think and everything that I think should happen. And I think the committee really appreciated just no, you know, beating around the bush. No, this is what I think. This is what I think you can do. This is what I think the ballet world needs to go. And the day before, the day, the morning that the search firm called me, two of my friends texted me this big article
36:28 Speaker 06 from, I think it was the Washington Post, saying, "The next artistic director should be either, you know, Misty Copeland or somebody else." And I remember saying to both of them, you know, ABT needs to do what they need to do.
36:40 Alec Baldwin? Right.
36:40 Speaker 06 Go with God. You know, they need to do what they need to do. And then at 9:06 a.m., I was in the car going across the bridge, and the search firm called me. And the guy says, "Hi, this is so-and-so." And I'm waiting. And I'm thinking, he's going to tell me the committee's decided to move in a different direction. And he said, "I just want you to know that you're the one."
37:07 Alec Baldwin? "I just want you to know, we decided to hire you." What the hell? What kind of refusiveness was that?
37:16 Speaker 06 He was just playing with me.
37:18 Alec Baldwin? "Here's the key to your office." I mean, what the hell?
37:22 Speaker 06 Yeah, it was unbelievable.
37:24 Alec Baldwin? He was fooling around with you.
37:25 Speaker 06 Of course.
37:29 Alec Baldwin? Dancer and artistic director Susan Jaffe. If you're enjoying this conversation, tell a friend. And be sure to follow Here's the Thing on the iHeartRadio app, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts. When we come back, Susan Jaffe details the challenges of getting audiences back into the theater after the pandemic.
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40:12 Alec Baldwin? I'm Alec Baldwin, and this is Here's the Thing. Susan Jaffe was appointed artistic director, or A D, of the Pittsburgh Ballet Theater in 2020. She subsequently found herself challenged with running a ballet company during the height of the COVID-19 pandemic. In 2022, Jaffe started as artistic director of the American Ballet Theater. A year later, she would become artistic director and executive director. Jaffe now found herself dealing with the aftermath of the pandemic and its effects on a premier ballet company.
40:54 Alec Baldwin? I wanted to know what it was like to step into those roles after such a tumultuous time in the world.
41:00 Speaker 06 It's insane. Lost a lot of money, lost a lot of supporters as well because people stopped going to the theater and they started staying at home and watching Netflix and, you know, getting home movie theaters and, you know, all of those things. And it took a long time to get the audience to come back. And so this was like four years, five years of getting the audience to come back into the theaters.
41:28 Alec Baldwin? Are they back?
41:29 Speaker 06 I think so.
41:30 Alec Baldwin? By and large, yeah.
41:31 Speaker 06 Oh, yeah, by and large. It's interesting because ballet in particular has really had a real surge of of audience members now. Even in Europe, more than opera, people are filling the theaters to see ballet, which is really interesting because in Europe mostly it was the opera house, you know, the Royal Opera House. Well, that artistic director, who is in charge of the company, the ballet company, got the name changed to the Royal Ballet and Opera House because the ballet is now funding right now the opera. So it's it's really interesting.
42:10 Alec Baldwin? The ballet's funding the opera where?
42:11 Speaker 06 At the Royal Opera House. Yeah, the Royal Ballet and Opera House. Now, there's more attendance in the ballet than there is in the opera right now. And I, I think that's probably true here, too. I think it's taken longer for the opera to regain their audience, probably because operas are so long, people are more stressed out, people are going to work much earlier, they're working longer days than we used to. Back when I was a kid, you know, people were doing nine to five. That's not true anymore, right? So people, maybe it's harder to go to the opera because you don't want to come home at 11:30 at night and try to get, you know, a good night's sleep. So it's been great to have ballet audiences come back.
42:52 Alec Baldwin? I'm also under the impression that one of the reasons that financial advantage that the opera has at Lincoln Center is they own the only institution that owns their building.
43:00 Speaker 06 Yes.
43:01 Alec Baldwin? They lease the land, but the building they built themselves and they own the building, unlike everybody else is a tenant of Lincoln Center.
43:09 Speaker 06 Well, New York City Ballet owns their building.
43:11 Alec Baldwin? The Koch?
43:12 Speaker 06 Yeah, they own that and they don't, they don't pay rent. So it's, yeah. And Lincoln Kirstein, brilliant man, so he got the deal, which was $1 a year. So they don't pay rent. Of course, they have labor. Now, they paying their labor and if they don't fill the theater as a presenter when they're dark, then they're paying the, you know, the labor is very, very expensive. So, you know, it's hard for everyone.
43:41 Alec Baldwin? I'm assuming that at the student level, there's disappointment when they get let go, but it must be even harder when they're students. Like you get admitted to a program and whether it's Juilliard or ABT, whatever the school is, whatever the instructional facility is, that at some point people are let go. Is there an attrition every year? Are people going to your school, whoever you, you have to cull a certain number of people?
44:04 Speaker 06 Absolutely.
44:04 Alec Baldwin? You do?
44:05 Speaker 06 But, you know, I'm one of those people who believe that everybody has their own path. And that one should never look at any event. You know, of course, I'm not talking about war or things like that or tragedy. But any event that seems like it's an adverse situation can be turned into, alchemically, into something brilliant. And, you know, I believe that people follow their path and that ballet could have been one part of their path, but it helped them to go into being a doctor or to being whatever. And when I was a dean and a student would come in and say, you know, Ms. Jappy,
44:47 Speaker 06 I just feel like I don't want to do this anymore. I would say, yay!
44:52 Alec Baldwin? Wow.
44:53 Speaker 06 You know, do you know how many people at your age know what they don't want to do? And I said, you'll probably, yeah, you'll probably make three times the salary of any ballet dancer. So congratulations, you know, I fully support you. You know, you take all of your experiences with you and you can build a beautiful life, regardless of what it is.
45:17 Alec Baldwin? When you're there now, I'm sure this is public record, but don't answer if you can. What's the budget of ABT now annually?
45:23 Speaker 06 Our expenses are about 51 million.
45:26 Alec Baldwin? 51 million.
45:27 Speaker 06 Mm-hmm, that's our expenses.
45:29 Alec Baldwin? And most of it comes from individual supporters?
45:32 Speaker 06 Yeah, donors, tuition from the school, ticket sales and fundraising.
45:38 Alec Baldwin? And not a lot of grants?
45:39 Speaker 06 Not a lot of government grants. We get, you know, foundations that love the arts, you know, and want to support and me and love the company and all of those things. But yeah, not very much from the government.
45:53 Alec Baldwin? What's a typical day in your life? Is there a typical day?
45:57 Speaker 06 Yes, the typical, there aren't typical fires, but there are typical days. So when we're in rehearsal period, I start in the morning at 10 with meetings, just sort of back-to-back meetings. And this is with my executive director, our marketing director, our director of production, our general manager, like all different kinds of meetings. And then I go into rehearsal and I rehearse, I don't know, between five hours, three to five hours. And then I have other meetings.
46:29 Alec Baldwin? You conduct the rehearsal?
46:30 Speaker 06 Oh, yeah. Yeah, I coach and do all those things.
46:33 Alec Baldwin? So you don't have a person who does that for you?
46:34 Speaker 06 Oh, I have a ton of staff doing that, too.
46:36 Alec Baldwin? But you are the principal instructor of the ballet company?
46:40 Speaker 06 Well, I'm the, I'm the artistic director, so I oversee this.
46:43 Alec Baldwin? Oh, you're A D and E D?
46:44 Speaker 06 No, no, no. I was A D, E D, but now we have a new E D.
46:48 Alec Baldwin? Oh, that's right. My apologies. So you're the A D, of course. So then as A D, you're there all the time?
46:53 Speaker 06 Yeah, yeah. I was doing A D, E D for one year. And now we have an E D, a wonderful E D. So, yeah, I'm there coaching, giving notes, you know.
47:01 Alec Baldwin? What's his name again, the E D?
47:02 Speaker 06 His name is Barry Hewson.
47:04 Alec Baldwin? Got it, got it, great.
47:04 Speaker 06 Yeah, great executive director. So we're very blessed. And then rehearsal day ends at 6:30. Sometimes I have to stay for an hour or so to, to email, et cetera. When we go into performance, I start again at 10:00 and I will go all day until 10:00 P. M. Literally no breaks, no lunch, no pizza, like you guys got to have. No breaks at all from 10:00 to 10:00, 12-hour days. And sometimes, of course, more.
47:35 Alec Baldwin? You're not eating enough.
47:36 Speaker 06 I, I try to.
47:37 Alec Baldwin? You've got to eat more.
47:39 Speaker 06 Thank you.
47:40 Alec Baldwin? It's just in power bars.
47:42 Speaker 06 And that's six days a week. And that's 17 weeks a year. So it took me a while to get the stamina for that because you would know, the, the very, very long days.
47:52 Alec Baldwin? Long days.
47:52 Speaker 06 And people don't realize how, how punishing those hours can be.
47:58 Alec Baldwin? That's right. You have to perform.
47:59 Speaker 06 Yeah.
48:00 Alec Baldwin? And on the phone raising money.
48:02 Speaker 06 Raising money, going to events, you know, when I'm at the theater, going to dinners or after performance parties, et cetera, et cetera. So, yeah, there's a lot of fundraising as well, which I love.
48:12 Alec Baldwin? So you started when? You're A D only?
48:14 Speaker 06 I started as A D in 2022, December. And then I became A D, E D in May of 23.
48:24 Alec Baldwin? And then?
48:24 Speaker 06 And then that lasted for one year, three days, 10 hours, 13 minutes and four seconds.
48:32 Alec Baldwin? You were starving the whole time?
48:33 Speaker 06 Not that I was counting.
48:34 Alec Baldwin? No.
48:36 Speaker 06 And that was tough because I literally didn't, I didn't have a moment. I just didn't have a moment and I, you know, I love the company and I wanted to make sure that I was the bridge to get that next fantastic ED. But I was gonna carry it until we got that ED. And I was so happy we found a wonderful, wonderful executive director. So, yeah, I never want to do that again.
49:02 Alec Baldwin? Who plans the season?
49:03 Speaker 06 Oh, I do.
49:04 Alec Baldwin? And you look at the history of the whole program and say, well, we only just did that three years ago or four years ago.
49:10 Speaker 06 I do have a record of all the things that we've done in the past.
49:14 Alec Baldwin? But you will all make the decision.
49:15 Speaker 06 I mean, you know, somebody might say, oh, remember this ballet or that ballet, you know, and they'll, we'll banter back and forth. Yeah, but I make the ultimate decision. You know, a lot of people think, oh, you know, being an artistic director, you just choose the program, so I could do that. Well, it's so much more.
49:31 Alec Baldwin? Go ahead and try.
49:32 Speaker 06 Yeah, well, it's not only the program, but working with the dancers, understanding what they can do, understanding why we would be bringing in this piece or that piece, what it's going to do for the company and how much risk should you be taking, how much should you be doing the classics, et cetera. It's a balance. And also, my job is also to make sure that the dancers are healthy, happy, supported, you know, feeling good about themselves.
49:58 Alec Baldwin? Ready.
49:58 Speaker 06 Yeah. And that's a.
50:00 Alec Baldwin? You're a producer.
50:01 Speaker 06 Yeah, does not all day, you know, every day, yeah.
50:04 Alec Baldwin? Are there people over the years that you saw them, because I see this in my business quite often, where you sit there and think to yourself privately, good luck. And you think they're really not gonna make it, they become superstars. No names, obviously. Or people who you think you're gonna become the greatest thing in this business and they don't make it. Have you been wrong on a couple of occasions about the arc of someone's professional career?
50:25 Speaker 06 You know, when you're looking, unless they get injured, right? When you're looking at a dancer, I mean, I think you just can't hide behind your energy. You can't, you can't hide if you have passion or not. You can't hide if you have work ethic. You cannot hide if you have the right physicality to be able to execute the technique. You can't hide if you're. The artist, you can't hide. So I would definitely look at somebody and say, oh, my gosh, that person's going to be a star. And then they become a star. I haven't seen, the only time when somebody who I think is super, super talented, who does not become a star, is when they just fall out of love with the ballet.
51:03 Alec Baldwin? They change.
51:04 Speaker 06 They change.
51:04 Alec Baldwin? The businesses don't change, they change.
51:06 Speaker 06 Exactly.
51:12 Alec Baldwin? My thanks to American Ballet Theatre's artistic director, Susan Jaffe. This episode was recorded at CDM Studios in New York City. We're produced by Kathleen Russo, Zach McNeese, and Victoria DeMartin. Our engineer is Frank Imperial, and our social media manager is Danielle Gingrich. I'm Alec Baldwin. Here's The Thing is brought to you by iHeart Radio.
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