Hype's out for summer

What started as a chill summer situation becomes very heated this week. Nilay, Dieter, Sam, and Special British Guest Tom Warren discuss Windows 10, Apple Music, an alleged new Moto X, and The Beach Boys. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:10Nilay Patel?

  Look, it's the summer. It's warm outside. It's actually disgustingly hot outside in New York City.

• 0:15Speaker 01

  Yeah. It's chill week.

• 0:17Nilay Patel?

  Chill week, chill summer, chill July, theverge.com. This is the Vergecast. We're gonna listen to this, we're gonna listen to Beach Boys, the whole show.

• 0:25Speaker 01

  That's right.

• 0:25Nilay Patel?

  Uh, we're not gonna do that.

• 0:26Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 0:27Nilay Patel?

  Uh, hey, everybody, welcome to the Vergecast. The flagship podcast of theverge.com.

• 0:33Speaker 01

  One of many.

• 0:34Nilay Patel?

  Well, that's the flagship. You can't have many flagships.

• 0:38Speaker 01

  No, one of many shows.

• 0:39Speaker 02

  It's the one and only.

• 0:41Nilay Patel?

  Alright. Well, that, as always, was a disaster. The signature move of the flagship podcast of theverge.com is to begin with just utter, utter chaos. But anyway, we're here, we're gonna talk about technology, we're gonna talk about culture, uh, really just those things.

• 0:59Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 0:59Nilay Patel?

  But I have some exciting news. I, the exciting news is not that I am Neil Ipatel, although I, every day, wake up and am excited by that news. As one might be, but that, that, what you heard in your ears was the exciting news.

• 1:11Speaker 02

  Your accent is here.

• 1:12Nilay Patel?

  Are...

• 1:13Speaker 02

  I have returned.

• 1:14Nilay Patel?

  What is that?

• 1:15Speaker 02

  To wreak havoc on the nation.

• 1:18Nilay Patel?

  Uh, well, Tom Warren is here, creepily.

• 1:20Speaker 02

  Actually, I nearly wreaked havoc flying in to this nation.

• 1:23Nilay Patel?

  Really?

• 1:24Speaker 01

  What'd you do?

• 1:24Nilay Patel?

  To the station?

• 1:25Speaker 02

  Because, to this nation.

• 1:27Nilay Patel?

  Oh, okay.

• 1:27Speaker 02

  Because I had one of those, you know, those interviews you never think are gonna happen when you go to the customs, I had one.

• 1:33Speaker 01

  Oh.

• 1:34Nilay Patel?

  When you're like, "I'm sorry, sir, I brought these English drugs with me."

• 1:37Speaker 01

  Did you, did you use your fake American accent to get, get through it?

• 1:40Speaker 02

  Yeah, it worked perfectly.

• 1:41Nilay Patel?

  Wait, what was the interview like? What'd they ask you?

• 1:43Speaker 02

  Um, they thought that I needed a particular visa and I didn't, and I tried to explain it, and they were like, "No, go to the room." Yeah.

• 1:50Nilay Patel?

  Wait, that was your interview with somebody telling you to go to a room?

• 1:52Speaker 02

  No, the guy at the gate was like, I was like, "Usually people who are at this gate know what they're doing," and then that was it, he marched me off after that. So I had an interview and they realized I didn't need a visa and then sent me on my way.

• 2:04Speaker 01

  Very nice.

• 2:04Nilay Patel?

  But what, give me a sample question from this interview.

• 2:08Speaker 02

  Well, it wasn't really an interview because it was like, I was like, I work in London, I'm paid in London, I don't get paid in America. And then they're like, oh, why are you here? And I was like, I don't know. And then they looked up what's been going on.

• 2:20Nilay Patel?

  And then they Googled you and you're like, you're here to report on Microsoft. And you're like, yes, I am.

• 2:25Speaker 02

  I'm like, my mate Bill, you can give him a call.

• 2:27Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:28Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:28Nilay Patel?

  Well, Tom is, I will say this, Tom is, in fact, for you government types out there, here to report on Microsoft. It'd be amazing if halfway through this show, like, customs agents burst through the door and like, you're working, you're working right now.

• 2:41Speaker 02

  And Neil is paying me dollar bills.

• 2:44Nilay Patel?

  They're waiting for me to hand you a stack of dollar bills and then they can arrest you. Anyway, Tom is here, Dieter is here. Hello, hello. In the hype set, hype seat, he has a new set, is what I'm trying to say, in the hype seat, Sam, the bone cheffer, wait, no, it's Dieter's last name. I was gonna say Sam the man, but that's boring. Sam the bone? But you can't, because Dieter's got, you can't just take it. We could try the bone. No, you can't, you can't just take a man's last name. This is the worst intro of this show that has ever, ever been recorded.

• 3:13Speaker 01

  Behind Sam is a set of lockers and it says, "Hypes out for summer."

• 3:18Nilay Patel?

  It is, chill summer.

• 3:19Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 3:19Nilay Patel?

  I've gotta say, we've been having a very chill, very relaxed, very successful summer so far.

• 3:26Speaker 02

  So what we used to do with those lockers at school?

• 3:28Nilay Patel?

  Stuff, stuff, nerds.

• 3:29Speaker 02

  Stuff them with fish.

• 3:30Nilay Patel?

  What? Fish?

• 3:31Speaker 02

  On your last day at school, so then when the kids come in the new term, smelly lockers.

• 3:36Nilay Patel?

  Wow, okay, that's weird. That's, it's a British, it's a British. Let's get in, let's get into the news, because the summer's been chill.

• 3:43Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 3:45Nilay Patel?

  Relaxed, but. It's about to heat up. It's about to, there's, stop, Dieter wrote a post this week that's like, the, like, action is coming to tech news again. We're gonna have a classic, I think, Vergecast, we're gonna deepen Apple, I'm gonna say Windows is bad, you guys are gonna send me emails. Then we're gonna, we're gonna talk about the web, the state of the web, our emotions about the web. This is a Vergecast for the hardest core Vergecast fans.

• 4:10Speaker 02

  Yeah, this is, this is real.

• 4:12Nilay Patel?

  This is the stuff. So we should get into it. So, tech news about to heat up in a big way. So, next week, tech news about to heat up in a big way, right as I go on vacation, literally to Africa where I will have no access to anything. Which is cool because I'm excited about relaxing chill summer, but tech news next week gets real big, right? So Windows 10 is happening.

• 4:32Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 4:32Nilay Patel?

  The 29th at midnight.

• 4:34Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 4:35Nilay Patel?

  Um Motorola is having an event on the 28th.

• 4:38Speaker 01

  At like 10, nine or 10 Eastern.

• 4:41Nilay Patel?

  In the morning.

• 4:41Speaker 01

  In the morning.

• 4:42Nilay Patel?

  So Motorola morning, then.

• 4:44Speaker 01

  There's a mystery VIP event for Nokia.

• 4:46Nilay Patel?

  Yes.

• 4:47Speaker 01

  That.

• 4:49Speaker 02

  The rumors.

• 4:51Nilay Patel?

  There would be amazing.

• 4:52Speaker 01

  The river is VR stuff.

• 4:54Nilay Patel?

  What if Nokia puts like a Windows 10 phone?

• 4:56Speaker 01

  Oh my God. No, that that's different. This is Nokia technology.

• 4:59Nilay Patel?

  No. Oh, I see.

• 5:00Speaker 01

  Right. Which is different from whatever the rebranding Nokia.

• 5:03Speaker 02

  Future phones.

• 5:04Nilay Patel?

  Double ELOP. It's still my dream.

• 5:06Speaker 01

  Double ELOP.

• 5:07Nilay Patel?

  Double ELOP is my dream. If Stephen ELOP can go back to Nokia, ruin it again and then sell it to Microsoft again.

• 5:15Speaker 02

  Triple ELOP in the sky.

• 5:17Nilay Patel?

  Now the triple like.

• 5:19Speaker 02

  He could do it.

• 5:20Nilay Patel?

  He could do it, but you've got to, you've got to achieve. That's the thing about doing things three times. There's that famous saying, that's the thing about doing things three times. The second time is the hardest. Right? The first one, you're like, I did it. Ah, you have this thing. And the third time you're like, I'm chasing history. And then the second time you're just, you just, you're just Stephen ELOP, just thinking about Nokia. And that's the second time of things.

• 5:42Speaker 02

  Truly amazing.

• 5:43Nilay Patel?

  Third, the, the, the, the third time is the charm, as they say.

• 5:49Speaker 01

  Windows 10.

• 5:50Speaker 02

  Moving on.

• 5:53Nilay Patel?

  This shows, uh, I'd like to apologize to everyone. Uh, let's talk about what I said. Tom, let's begin. So you're running it. You've got an XPS 13.

• 6:01Speaker 02

  I have it here.

• 6:02Speaker 01

  With amazing stickers.

• 6:03Nilay Patel?

  Running a preview build.

• 6:04Speaker 02

  Oh yeah. The ninja cat.

• 6:07Nilay Patel?

  Yeah.

• 6:07Speaker 02

  Is invading. Um, yeah, this is the RTM or not RTM, whatever you want to call it, RTM. So the final bits.

• 6:15Speaker 01

  Yeah. It's the one that, that like was the last Windows insider build that we're pretty sure is going to be the build, right?

• 6:19Speaker 02

  Yeah. This is the build. So. Um, yeah. So it's happening on the 29th, finally, which feels kind of weird. It's like, cause it feels like it's been happening for months. So it's a bit of a weird launch, but it's a launch and it's kind of not.

• 6:33Speaker 01

  And there's not gonna be like a launch event. They're not gonna have like a keynote or anything, right? They're just gonna be like, all right, go do it.

• 6:39Nilay Patel?

  And it all just like flips a button on the server.

• 6:41Speaker 02

  Yeah, the massive red button.

• 6:42Nilay Patel?

  Yeah. Yeah. And you can download it.

• 6:44Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 6:45Nilay Patel?

  Or mostly, most people just get it for free.

• 6:47Speaker 02

  Yeah. So Windows 7 and Windows 8 uses, so, so here's the thing, Windows 7 and Windows 8 get it free. People could pre-register and like reserve their slot in line, something, but we don't really know who's gonna get it on the Wednesday.

• 6:59Speaker 01

  Cause they're rolling it out slowly.

• 7:00Speaker 02

  Yeah, they're rolling it out slowly.

• 7:01Speaker 01

  Yeah, what?

• 7:02Speaker 02

  Yeah. So it's not like everyone gets it. Not everyone can go get it. Um, it depends whether your device is like, like all the drivers are up to date and it's ready for it.

• 7:10Speaker 01

  Right.

• 7:11Speaker 02

  So it could be millions, it could be thousands, it could be, who knows?

• 7:14Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 7:15Speaker 02

  You know, we'll, we'll see. It's a bit of a weird launch all around.

• 7:18Nilay Patel?

  But I think, but if you want it, you can just have it, right? Or you don't know.

• 7:21Speaker 02

  Well.

• 7:22Speaker 01

  Like, can I go to Best Buy and buy it?

• 7:24Speaker 02

  That, that's another thing. I'm not sure that there will be retail boxes.

• 7:27Speaker 01

  Right.

• 7:28Speaker 02

  Wednesday.

• 7:29Speaker 01

  Crazy.

• 7:30Speaker 02

  Cause all the Amazon listings are for August.

• 7:32Speaker 01

  Yeah. Well, and the other crazy thing is, you know, we, we, Tom's written that this is the last Windows. And so like the, it's like, all right, here it is. Go get it, some of you. And like, we're just gonna keep updating it over and over again, uh, all the time from now on.

• 7:47Speaker 02

  Yeah, I'm not really sure how that kind of works.

• 7:50Speaker 01

  Yeah. Well, we, do we, do we, uh, cause there used to be, what was like update Wednesday?

• 7:54Speaker 02

  Uh, Patch Tuesday.

• 7:55Speaker 01

  Patch Tuesday. There we go.

• 7:57Speaker 02

  That's for the security fixes.

• 7:58Speaker 01

  Right.

• 7:58Speaker 02

  I think that's still gonna continue.

• 8:00Speaker 01

  Right, right.

• 8:00Speaker 02

  Um, but then alongside that, there'll be like feature updates and stuff like that. So, but I don't think it's gonna be like, in, in six months' time, the start menu, something gonna look drastically different or anything like that. It's gonna be the built-in apps and stuff like that. So.

• 8:13Nilay Patel?

  What's the first thing? When you install Windows 7, what's the first thing to play with?

• 8:16Speaker 02

  Probably Cortana, I guess, like to play with. Yeah. And the start menu.

• 8:20Nilay Patel?

  I mean, that's what they're going, even in the ads, there's that app with the babies.

• 8:22Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 8:22Nilay Patel?

  And all, it's like pictures of cute babies and then like slope pans over the Cortana interface.

• 8:29Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 8:29Nilay Patel?

  Cortana's good.

• 8:30Speaker 02

  Yeah, no, Cortana's good. I don't know that I use it that much. I use it for stuff, but this is all I use Siri for. It's like reminders and stuff like that. Like it's really, you can just, you know, shout, uh, remind me when I get to wherever.

• 8:41Speaker 01

  If I, if I were to shout, hey Cortana, does your?

• 8:43Speaker 02

  No, cause it's trained to my voice.

• 8:47Nilay Patel?

  Really clever.

• 8:47Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 8:48Nilay Patel?

  It knows that you're British.

• 8:49Speaker 01

  He knows.

• 8:49Nilay Patel?

  When you do an American accent, is it?

• 8:51Speaker 02

  Nah.

• 8:53Speaker 02

  Hey Cortana?

• 8:54Speaker 03

  What? That's not an American accent. You're like lost in Texas somewhere.

• 8:59Nilay Patel?

  Texas.

• 9:00Speaker 01

  Wait, that's America.

• 9:01Speaker 03

  I know, but it's.

• 9:01Nilay Patel?

  Oh, my God, you're such an elitist, such a New Jersey elitist.

• 9:05Speaker 03

  I love Austin, but.

• 9:06Nilay Patel?

  Wow.

• 9:07Speaker 03

  Wow.

• 9:08Nilay Patel?

  I mean, that's the, by the way, the ultimate elitist thing to say about Texas. The one liberal city in, that's cool.

• 9:13Speaker 03

  I'm gonna get so many, so many angry people saying, oh, Texas is great.

• 9:17Nilay Patel?

  And those people have guns.

• 9:18Speaker 03

  Yeah, I know.

• 9:19Nilay Patel?

  They really do.

• 9:20Speaker 03

  And I'm in New York.

• 9:21Nilay Patel?

  They love them.

• 9:22Speaker 03

  Presumably safe.

• 9:23Nilay Patel?

  Someone in Texas has a sniper rifle looking at you. Or a drone, they probably have a drone.

• 9:29Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 9:29Speaker 01

  With a gun.

• 9:30Nilay Patel?

  With a gun.

• 9:31Speaker 02

  Yeah. That's being investigated.

• 9:32Nilay Patel?

  Did you guys see the video of the drone picking up the other drone today?

• 9:34Speaker 03

  Yes, that was amazing.

• 9:35Speaker 01

  It's on the front page of Reddit, but yeah.

• 9:37Nilay Patel?

  Huh?

• 9:37Speaker 03

  It was on the front page of Reddit.

• 9:38Nilay Patel?

  Well, what isn't on the front page of Reddit? Besides terrible misogyny.

• 9:42Speaker 03

  Ah.

• 9:44Nilay Patel?

  Poor Sam. Sam just looked pain.

• 9:48Speaker 03

  My front page is curated pretty well.

• 9:50Nilay Patel?

  Yeah.

• 9:50Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 9:51Nilay Patel?

  Cause you subscribe to subreddits.

• 9:53Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 9:53Speaker 01

  Yeah. But don't you want to know what like the generic Reddit looks like?

• 9:57Speaker 03

  Well, then you hit Command Shift N when you're in Chrome and you get incognito window and you go to Reddit.com and you can see.

• 10:03Nilay Patel?

  Wow, you got burnt, you got incognito burnt. You got, you got Chrome keyboard burned. Alright, so here's the thing, so you've been using it.

• 10:12Speaker 02

  Hmm.

• 10:12Nilay Patel?

  You obviously can't review it till it's released, but you've got the bits.

• 10:15Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 10:16Nilay Patel?

  Dieter, you've got it too.

• 10:17Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 10:17Nilay Patel?

  People have it all.

• 10:18Speaker 01

  I've got it on an XPS 13.

• 10:19Nilay Patel?

  What, what's the, uh, in the, it feels like the XPS 13 is the Windows 10.

• 10:24Speaker 02

  I think so, it's still, it still has some weird touch.

• 10:28Speaker 01

  Man.

• 10:28Nilay Patel?

  It's definitely not the Surface.

• 10:29Speaker 03

  That's a problem.

• 10:30Nilay Patel?

  No.

• 10:30Speaker 03

  It's a problem.

• 10:31Speaker 01

  That's a, that's probably a problem.

• 10:33Nilay Patel?

  The Surface. Look, it's such a troll.

• 10:36Speaker 01

  I like it.

• 10:36Nilay Patel?

  I'm concerned, I have concerns.

• 10:39Speaker 03

  Literally every Verge cast, I say this, where's Microsoft's hardware? They won't do it because of OEMs, right?

• 10:43Speaker 01

  They do, it's called the Surface, Surface Pro 3.

• 10:45Nilay Patel?

  Yeah, but you being like, it's a problem.

• 10:47Speaker 01

  And Surface 3.

• 10:48Nilay Patel?

  I mean, there's XPS 13 is like brand new, it's like a beautiful piece of hardware, it's actually a laptop.

• 10:52Speaker 02

  It's closest to the MacBook that we've ever had.

• 10:53Nilay Patel?

  Yeah, it's like, of course that's it.

• 10:55Speaker 01

  It has a bonkers good screen.

• 10:56Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 10:57Nilay Patel?

  That's like just, Sam, you, such a troll.

• 11:01Speaker 03

  I just, I'm waiting.

• 11:02Nilay Patel?

  That's like walking into somebody eating like a delicious ice cream cone and being like, hmm, diabetes. You know, it's like, just let them enjoy the ice cream for one minute of their damn lives.

• 11:10Speaker 03

  It's a little bit different because Microsoft, Microsoft is making this operating system and they're like, you know what, Dell, you can have the glory of the best.

• 11:17Speaker 01

  Well, they're not, it's, it's not that they're letting them have the glory. It's that they're off cycle for their next revision of the Surface.

• 11:23Speaker 02

  Well, I think it's more like they don't make a laptop.

• 11:25Speaker 01

  Right.

• 11:25Speaker 02

  The Surface Pro 3 is a tablet.

• 11:27Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 11:27Speaker 02

  Come laptop.

• 11:29Nilay Patel?

  I was, nobody knows what the Surface Pro 3 is. What is this thing? You know, I've realized.

• 11:34Speaker 01

  What is this useless tablet?

• 11:35Nilay Patel?

  It's so mediocre.

• 11:36Speaker 01

  If I could stand up with it and walk away with it in less than 10 seconds, but you can't just pick it up and walk away with it. Like with the laptop, like.

• 11:43Speaker 02

  You have to close it, right?

• 11:44Speaker 01

  With the Surface, like.

• 11:45Speaker 02

  Turn off.

• 11:46Speaker 01

  Anyway. And then you're gone.

• 11:48Nilay Patel?

  This is a real pinnacle of, of audio effects.

• 11:51Speaker 01

  Right?

• 11:52Nilay Patel?

  For our podcast listeners.

• 11:54Speaker 01

  Well, I was making all these hand motions and I realized that the audio listeners wouldn't know what I was doing, so I.

• 12:02Nilay Patel?

  We're stopped, we're done.

• 12:03Speaker 02

  You just go do the click noise.

• 12:06Nilay Patel?

  Nope. God, somewhere I can see, if I can feel John's pain. He's like not even wearing headphones anymore. He's just in the control room.

• 12:13Speaker 01

  We're just looking mad.

• 12:15Nilay Patel?

  You know, it's funny, in the control room, the lights turn red when John is angry.

• 12:22Speaker 03

  He has like the Philips Hue wearable, linked up to his wrist.

• 12:26Nilay Patel?

  His Apple Watch, if this and that, his heart rate starts rising, the room turns red.

• 12:30Speaker 03

  That would actually be kind of cool.

• 12:31Nilay Patel?

  Would it be cool?

• 12:32Speaker 02

  That'd be an actual use for the Apple Watch.

• 12:35Speaker 03

  So, I just want to, I just want to talk about this for a second. I cracked my Apple Watch. I'm not wearing it anymore. I don't care for it anymore.

• 12:41Speaker 01

  Wow, what?

• 12:43Speaker 03

  I fell out of.

• 12:43Nilay Patel?

  Oh, we should talk about headphones.

• 12:44Speaker 03

  I fell out of, I fell.

• 12:45Nilay Patel?

  We should, we should add those to the mix.

• 12:47Speaker 03

  I realize now that my watch is cracked and like, I don't wear it anymore. It's been like two days also. Uh, the only thing I use it for is to look at the time, see the weather, and then like check who's texting me. That's literally it.

• 13:00Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's, that's what, that's all the smartwatches have ever been for.

• 13:04Speaker 03

  It's just sad.

• 13:05Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 13:05Speaker 03

  It's a little bit sad. I'm, I'm going to install OS 2 when it comes out and like, deal with the cracked screen, but other than that, I really, really, yes, you're right, Eli. You were right from the beginning and I'm just.

• 13:16Speaker 01

  I'm the one who told you that you were going to do this.

• 13:19Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 13:20Nilay Patel?

  All right, let's, let's go.

• 13:21Speaker 03

  Apple music.

• 13:22Nilay Patel?

  Let's finish Microsoft.

• 13:24Speaker 03

  Yes, we'll finish Microsoft.

• 13:25Nilay Patel?

  I think everybody knows that if you want to harsh the Apple Watch, I'm your guy. So we can do that in a minute. But let's finish Microsoft. So here's so they're putting it out. It's the X space 13 is the one. I would say this, and this goes to kind of the surface point.

• 13:41Nilay Patel?

  Windows 10 to me the whole time has felt like they're just playing to desktops. Right. They're telling desktop users how good it's going to be, how good the experience is going to be. They have all of these ways to develop apps for desktop. And all of that, and Nadella has now admitted openly that the reason they're doing that is they want to increase the install base of Windows 10. Because it's also going to run on the phones. They can get tons of apps on the desktop on Windows 10. Then they can start selling the phones and they'll have tons of apps on the phone.

• 14:09Speaker 02

  That sounds like Windows eight. That was their promise of Windows eight. It was like, let's put this massive tiled interface in front of everyone.

• 14:17Nilay Patel?

  Is Microsoft saying, look, the, the, the plan for Windows 10 is just like the plan for Windows eight, except that Windows 10 doesn't suck. Is that like?

• 14:26Speaker 02

  Think so. But I can't see that this is going to have any effect on the app situation at all. Because I can't see that people will make universal apps for any particular user. First of all, the recent news with them downscaling the phone stuff anyway. It's like, why do I need my app to run on the phone? Because it's such a small market.

• 14:45Nilay Patel?

  If you make a universal app, you get one of those sweet start tiles right in the start menu.

• 14:48Speaker 02

  Yeah, there's lots of benefits to it. But the biggest drawback for a developer is I have millions of people that are running, still running XP, but more so still running Windows seven. And why don't I just create a desktop app that works on that and Windows eight and Windows 10?

• 15:03Nilay Patel?

  Which is why they're giving it away for free. And it's like, look, everybody's on Windows 10 now. So don't worry about it.

• 15:08Speaker 02

  Giving it away for free because they want to encourage that development. So.

• 15:11Nilay Patel?

  Right. But so I wrote a, it's all these things are related, but I wrote a long thing earlier this week about my just general disappointment with the state of the mobile web.

• 15:20Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 15:21Nilay Patel?

  And part of that is, is. I think the web on desktops is still quite good.

• 15:25Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 15:25Nilay Patel?

  I mean, I look at the the stuff I use on my computer every day. And we we've probably talked about this a little bit, but I basically don't use apps.

• 15:34Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 15:34Nilay Patel?

  Right. I use the Twitter app. I use Mailplane, which is basically.

• 15:38Speaker 01

  You use the Twitter app?

• 15:39Nilay Patel?

  Yeah.

• 15:40Speaker 01

  On your Mac?

• 15:41Nilay Patel?

  Yeah.

• 15:41Speaker 01

  The official one?

• 15:42Nilay Patel?

  It's just there.

• 15:44Speaker 01

  Dude.

• 15:45Nilay Patel?

  It's fine.

• 15:45Speaker 03

  The official Twitter app?

• 15:46Speaker 01

  Not good at all.

• 15:47Speaker 03

  The official Twitter app?

• 15:48Nilay Patel?

  It's fine.

• 15:49Speaker 03

  It's great.

• 15:49Nilay Patel?

  It's it's fine.

• 15:50Speaker 03

  I would say it's great.

• 15:51Nilay Patel?

  It's I don't think it's great.

• 15:52Speaker 02

  Your homepage in your browser is Myspace.com.

• 15:54Nilay Patel?

  Yes.

• 15:55Speaker 02

  Cool.

• 15:55Nilay Patel?

  Now, the official Twitter app, here's the thing about the official Twitter app. It's just not good enough for me to not be bothered by Twitter. If it was any better, I would just get lost inside of Twitter all the time.

• 16:06Speaker 03

  I think the official app is great.

• 16:08Nilay Patel?

  It's fine. And it doesn't do anything to what the website, the Twitter web experience. And this goes to my point. The Twitter web experience is better on the desktop than Twitter's Mac app.

• 16:17Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 16:17Speaker 03

  Uh, yes.

• 16:18Nilay Patel?

  Like leaps and bounds.

• 16:19Speaker 03

  Different. Right? The Twitter for Mac app is the is a skeleton.

• 16:22Nilay Patel?

  Right.

• 16:22Speaker 03

  And then TweetDeck is also like, I use TweetDeck exclusively. And I think a lot of us do here, too.

• 16:29Nilay Patel?

  Right.

• 16:29Speaker 03

  But there's no.

• 16:31Speaker 02

  I like the columns. That's the main thing.

• 16:32Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 16:33Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 16:33Speaker 03

  And there's no TweetDeck for mobile. It would be impossible.

• 16:36Speaker 01

  There used to be.

• 16:37Speaker 03

  Really?

• 16:37Speaker 02

  Yeah, it did back in the day, yeah.

• 16:39Speaker 03

  What what did it do?

• 16:40Speaker 01

  The same thing, but you could like swipe between columns really easily. And you could like send a note. Yeah, it was great. It was it was like, super cool. I liked it a lot.

• 16:47Speaker 03

  I totally missed that.

• 16:48Nilay Patel?

  Wait, let me get to my point. So I use this app. That's one of the ones I use. And I use it specifically because it's not as good.

• 16:55Speaker 01

  You use it because it's crappy.

• 16:56Nilay Patel?

  Yeah, I use, right. I use it because it's a little bit crappy. Then, right now, I'm running Spotify. I quit Skype because we're on the show, but Skype is usually open. Uh, and that's it. I have an RSS reader open. That's it, right? Um, and it's because all of the other things I do are on the web in websites. And I think the one that I keep coming back to, the one app you definitely need on a phone is Facebook. You gotta have a Facebook app.

• 17:20Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 17:21Nilay Patel?

  But Facebook has never, and you have to, like.

• 17:23Speaker 02

  But you don't need it on a desktop.

• 17:24Nilay Patel?

  You don't need it on desktop because the Facebook website's really good.

• 17:27Speaker 03

  Facebook website on mobile works well, too.

• 17:29Nilay Patel?

  Well, right, but I'm saying you can't launch your mobile platform. And there is, I know that there is one on Windows.

• 17:34Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 17:35Nilay Patel?

  But it's because you have to.

• 17:37Speaker 03

  Yeah, but lest you all forget that there was no official Twitter app. There was no official Facebook app.

• 17:45Nilay Patel?

  My point is, my point is, you don't, like, the need for apps on the desktop is somewhat obviated by the fact that the browsers are quite good.

• 17:52Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 17:53Nilay Patel?

  And on top of it, so like, Facebook has no, even though Microsoft, you know, it's got a billion users, they also built a great new browser.

• 18:02Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 18:02Nilay Patel?

  Right? And I just don't see why having all of those people use Windows 10 is gonna make Microsoft into itself. We should make a killer Facebook app for the Windows desktop that will then be a killer.

• 18:14Speaker 02

  And a lot of these apps that are like cross-platform on Mac and the PC are just Chromium-based. They're like wrapped up web apps that are based on Chromium. So that's the way that people do it.

• 18:25Nilay Patel?

  My mail client, I use Mailplane, that's basically a Safari instance.

• 18:28Speaker 02

  Slack, Slack is Chromium on Windows, just packaged up and the same on Mac.

• 18:33Speaker 03

  So Neil, what's the point you're making here?

• 18:34Nilay Patel?

  My point, it seems very nice. I haven't played with it nearly as much as Tom and Dieter have. It seems great. I mean, I have played with it. It seems much better than eight.

• 18:43Speaker 02

  It's way better than eight, yeah.

• 18:44Nilay Patel?

  It feels more cohesive. Somebody clearly owns it as a product.

• 18:48Speaker 01

  Saying it's way better than eight, let's just be super clear, like, it's good, period. Saying it's way better than eight is like, not fair, because that's mean.

• 18:57Speaker 02

  It's not hard to do, yeah. Yeah, I mean, I like, I like the direction they're taking. I think with, with Windows 10 is that it is a work in progress. There's that. I don't think it's supposed to launch into October.

• 19:09Nilay Patel?

  Really?

• 19:09Speaker 02

  But I think it's been shifted up, the marketing and stuff, to get, to get people to upgrade.

• 19:14Nilay Patel?

  Back to school.

• 19:14Speaker 02

  To get back to school.

• 19:16Nilay Patel?

  You gotta put laptops out before school.

• 19:18Speaker 02

  So I think they've kind of rushed out, knowing that. And then in the background, they're preparing, you know, the polish for October.

• 19:24Nilay Patel?

  Do you think Microsoft still believes in tablets?

• 19:27Speaker 02

  I think

• 19:28Nilay Patel?

  First of all, does anyone still believe in tablets?

• 19:30Speaker 01

  No, they did. They made the tablet mode where it's the same thing and like the taskbar changes and like go, everything switches to touch mode and whatever.

• 19:38Speaker 02

  But it's interesting that there is like two worlds. So it was Windows 8 where it was just basically all about the tablet. And now it's kind of gone back to being all about the desktop, but still the tablet stuff is still there. So it's interesting that like change in mentality. But that's because the whole industry is thinking the iPad was going to be laptop sales and it turned out that it didn't quite.

• 19:57Nilay Patel?

  Well, laptop sales aren't great.

• 19:59Speaker 02

  No, but I mean, it didn't take over that segment.

• 20:02Nilay Patel?

  Although, Apple just did earnings and their Mac sales are great.

• 20:04Speaker 02

  Yeah, the Mac sales are up, what, 9%?

• 20:07Nilay Patel?

  Yeah, but it's, I think Windows 10 is like what will get people to buy a new laptop.

• 20:11Speaker 02

  Maybe, yeah.

• 20:12Nilay Patel?

  You think just maybe?

• 20:13Speaker 02

  I think the problem, the problem, and it's a problem with the iPad as well, is that the hardware is so good now that you don't actually need to upgrade it.

• 20:19Nilay Patel?

  Yeah.

• 20:20Speaker 02

  And I think that's the same with laptops as well. I think we're seeing part of that is not necessarily a reaction to the actual OS and the software and stuff. It's just that laptops are good. They've lasted for years now. Whereas back in 2001, you bought a laptop and it wouldn't last until now. So. And I think you see that with the iPad. A lot of people are still using older iPads.

• 20:37Nilay Patel?

  I checked Windows 10.

• 20:41Speaker 03

  10.

• 20:43Nilay Patel?

  It's troll, man troll Sheffer today.

• 20:46Speaker 03

  There's a lot of excited human beings about Windows 10.

• 20:50Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 20:51Nilay Patel?

  Oh, okay. A classic, a true.

• 20:53Speaker 01

  Proper hype check.

• 20:54Nilay Patel?

  A proper hype check.

• 20:54Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 20:56Nilay Patel?

  That's what that is.

• 20:56Speaker 03

  I mean, it's like we're, we're reaching peak hype right now. And it's, yeah, it's a joke on 10 and Windows 10, sure. But like, I am even compelled to use Windows again.

• 21:05Nilay Patel?

  Yeah, I think it looks great.

• 21:06Speaker 02

  I've stopped using my MacBook.

• 21:08Nilay Patel?

  You have?

• 21:08Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 21:09Nilay Patel?

  That's a big move for Tom Warren.

• 21:10Speaker 03

  Is there a Slack desktop?

• 21:11Speaker 02

  I just don't really use it.

• 21:12Nilay Patel?

  By the way, Tom Warren, if you, the listeners don't know, it's Tom Warren, best Microsoft word in the game, has been using almost exclusively Macs this whole time.

• 21:20Speaker 02

  Maybe, yeah. Like, Macs with Windows on them, but yeah.

• 21:24Nilay Patel?

  Yeah.

• 21:25Speaker 02

  But I've stopped using my MacBook because it's just like, oh, this is actually good now, so I can use it.

• 21:29Nilay Patel?

  Right.

• 21:30Speaker 03

  You have all the apps you need on there on the desktop?

• 21:33Speaker 02

  Yeah. The only stuff I don't have is like for our live blog stuff, but.

• 21:36Speaker 03

  Tweet deck?

• 21:37Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 21:38Nilay Patel?

  Do you want to do it, man? You're switching to Windows.

• 21:41Speaker 03

  I literally grew up using Windows. Ninety-five, ninety-eight, ME, XP. They were great. And then I got a Mac in 2008 with Snow Leopard. And I was like, damn, this is awesome.

• 21:53Nilay Patel?

  Window management is, you know, it's expose or whatever it's called. No mission control.

• 21:57Speaker 03

  Yeah. I mean.

• 21:58Nilay Patel?

  Snaps, snapping the windows.

• 22:00Speaker 03

  Yeah. There's a lot of, there's a lot of compelling reasons.

• 22:02Nilay Patel?

  And, and if, if Snapchat decides it wants to make a Windows phone app.

• 22:08Speaker 03

  God, yeah.

• 22:09Nilay Patel?

  Then it will be available on the desktop as well.

• 22:11Speaker 03

  But why?

• 22:13Nilay Patel?

  Why?

• 22:13Speaker 03

  Oh, my God. Imagine a Snapchat app, a Snapchat app.

• 22:16Nilay Patel?

  Sam's done, right? Oh, the hype is back in. I mean, look at it, look at that face.

• 22:21Speaker 03

  Is that even possible? Like, can you, can you?

• 22:23Nilay Patel?

  Dreaming.

• 22:23Speaker 02

  You can have, you can have Snapchat on, on the desktop.

• 22:26Nilay Patel?

  You can use like Android.

• 22:27Speaker 03

  How?

• 22:27Speaker 02

  You just load, yeah, load it on Chrome.

• 22:29Nilay Patel?

  Yeah.

• 22:29Speaker 03

  And it will use the, the camera and the microphone properly?

• 22:33Speaker 02

  Ooh, I don't know about.

• 22:35Nilay Patel?

  Everyone stop. What do you load in Chrome?

• 22:38Speaker 02

  He could just let, run literally the APKs, the Android files.

• 22:42Nilay Patel?

  Yeah.

• 22:43Speaker 02

  Files.

• 22:44Nilay Patel?

  Fair.

• 22:45Speaker 02

  Most of them run okay. Some of them don't.

• 22:47Nilay Patel?

  Yeah. Because Sam, Sam's like texting all of his friends.

• 22:54Nilay Patel?

  All right. So we got it. There's a few more Microsoft things to get through and then we should move on. So.

• 22:57Speaker 02

  Yeah, sure.

• 22:58Nilay Patel?

  Uh, Panos Panay got promoted from.

• 23:01Speaker 03

  Who is that?

• 23:02Nilay Patel?

  Whatever he was. Ran Surface.

• 23:03Speaker 02

  He runs Surface at the moment. Now he runs the premium device category. So essentially phones and.

• 23:09Nilay Patel?

  Does he have mice and keyboards?

• 23:11Speaker 02

  Perhaps.

• 23:13Nilay Patel?

  You, you think that he's gonna, you think he's making a phone?

• 23:15Speaker 03

  Panos Panay. He's like, I like him too. Like when he's on, when he's on stage, he's just like.

• 23:21Speaker 02

  He's an entertainer.

• 23:22Speaker 03

  So excited, he's almost angry. But he's not like mean or aggressive, but he's just like so into what he's talking about. You're like, whoa, man. Just, it's cool.

• 23:31Speaker 02

  I think it's, it's all, it's a show for him, isn't it? Showmanship.

• 23:34Nilay Patel?

  Yeah. No, but even in a meeting, he's like.

• 23:36Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah.

• 23:37Nilay Patel?

  He's a cool dude.

• 23:37Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 23:38Nilay Patel?

  Um, he's real. He's real in a way that Microsoft isn't always real.

• 23:42Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 23:42Speaker 02

  Yeah. You know, you know, he won't stick to the marketing line or any of that bullshit. He'll like tell it how it is.

• 23:48Nilay Patel?

  Yeah. And he's like, the way it is, is we can't make a laptop because it'll piss off Dell. So here's this keyboard thing.

• 23:54Speaker 01

  They make so many keyboard things. They made the, they made the little waterproof foldy one.

• 23:58Nilay Patel?

  Do you see Lauren Good review of that?

• 24:00Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 24:01Nilay Patel?

  Excellent, excellent.

• 24:02Speaker 02

  So he's taken over the phone stuff, which is kind of interesting because, you know, Surface phone.

• 24:08Nilay Patel?

  Yeah.

• 24:09Speaker 02

  I, I think, I think that's where they're going. Like they're gonna.

• 24:12Nilay Patel?

  Right. I mean, they, they keep shutting down Nokia. They keep getting rid of it and they're clearly just gonna make a phone.

• 24:16Speaker 03

  Man, if they make a Surface phone and they don't make a Surface laptop, I will be very angry because they have the branding.

• 24:23Nilay Patel?

  Sam alone screaming at the night.

• 24:25Speaker 03

  They screwed up Metro. They had that. They had it. They screwed up Spartan. They have Surface. It's like, people know what the Surface is. I, the last one, one Vergecast, I asked if people legitimately use Surface and I got like 10 emails. I forwarded some to Tom. And if they make a Surface phone and they don't do the, the laptop, I'm just gonna be confused and really just sad for Microsoft.

• 24:46Nilay Patel?

  They should just make it proper two in one, right? Where you, you peel off the thing.

• 24:50Speaker 01

  It's called the Surface.

• 24:52Nilay Patel?

  No, no, but you, but with like a proper keyboard base.

• 24:55Speaker 01

  Oh, so the keyboard base would have enough.

• 24:57Nilay Patel?

  So it's, it's actually a laptop and then you.

• 25:00Speaker 01

  Every, I've never seen a hinge in one of those proper two in ones. I just hate.

• 25:05Speaker 03

  The other bust.

• 25:06Speaker 02

  Or that lasts more than a few months.

• 25:08Speaker 03

  Bee for bust, hybrid laptops bust.

• 25:10Speaker 01

  Bee for bust, bee for busting your own, calling your own bee for bust.

• 25:12Speaker 03

  Hype.

• 25:13Nilay Patel?

  Okay. That's a different show. What's happening?

• 25:20Nilay Patel?

  So yeah, I think that's interesting. That flips all the way around.

• 25:23Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 25:23Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 25:24Nilay Patel?

  I really like that.

• 25:25Speaker 01

  Flipping all the way around is no good.

• 25:26Nilay Patel?

  Well, I don't understand why the Chromebook flip flips all the way around.

• 25:29Speaker 03

  Because like, if you want the screen in front of you, just like this.

• 25:32Nilay Patel?

  Who wants that?

• 25:32Speaker 03

  You put like the keyboard back there.

• 25:35Nilay Patel?

  I guess. It's so dumb. I don't know. I feel like we.

• 25:39Speaker 02

  I think it's where we're heading eventually. Like someone will make a decent two in one.

• 25:43Nilay Patel?

  No, they won't.

• 25:44Speaker 01

  It's been trying for five years now.

• 25:47Nilay Patel?

  Yeah, they've been trying since the iPad came out.

• 25:49Speaker 03

  Isn't the Lenovo Yoga.

• 25:52Speaker 01

  That's the closest you get.

• 25:53Speaker 03

  Two or three.

• 25:53Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 25:54Speaker 03

  Good.

• 25:54Speaker 01

  That's, that's like as close as you get to good.

• 25:56Nilay Patel?

  Yeah. And I think the Yoga, the Yoga is one of those laptops. It's like a laptop to buy.

• 26:01Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 26:01Nilay Patel?

  Right now it's like the Yoga, the XPS 13.

• 26:03Speaker 01

  Surface Pro 3. Goes on the list.

• 26:05Nilay Patel?

  There's, there's one HP one that looks sick that we just posted.

• 26:08Speaker 03

  It looks dope.

• 26:09Nilay Patel?

  It looks dope. Um, that one looks, yeah, that's cool. That's it. But that's like the list. We should do that post. What laptops to buy.

• 26:16Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 26:17Nilay Patel?

  And it's just four laptops. And at the bottom is a picture of Joanna just holding a MacBook Air in spy.

• 26:23Speaker 02

  You got the HP Spectre as well. Although I just don't really like the huge trackpad on it.

• 26:29Nilay Patel?

  You don't like a big trackpad?

• 26:30Speaker 02

  Well, not a white, no.

• 26:33Speaker 03

  On Windows 10, Tom? How's the trackpad on Windows 10?

• 26:37Speaker 02

  Well, it depends what hardware you've got.

• 26:38Speaker 03

  Sure, the one you're using right now.

• 26:41Speaker 02

  So this is okay, but sometimes it goes weird. And I think, I don't know whether it's Chrome or Windows 10. But because in Windows 10 apps, it's fine. I've never had it go crazy, but in Chrome, like sometimes the scrolling is just weird. So, but I think that's Chrome, because everything bad about browsing the web on Windows is free Chrome.

• 27:00Speaker 03

  Tom, how many?

• 27:01Nilay Patel?

  How's Edge?

• 27:02Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 27:04Nilay Patel?

  Edge, by the way, for your Microsoft new browsers called Edge.

• 27:07Speaker 03

  They changed it from Spartan to Edge. Good job.

• 27:13Speaker 02

  I think more is that.

• 27:15Nilay Patel?

  Man, fine. Whatever just happened.

• 27:17Speaker 02

  Sam just wants a Surface Laptop with Microsoft Spartan and Snapchat.

• 27:23Speaker 03

  That's Snapchat, yeah.

• 27:24Speaker 02

  He's good.

• 27:25Speaker 03

  Spartan's a terrible name for browser.

• 27:26Nilay Patel?

  Spartan's a really bad name for browser. Also, they gotta keep the E.

• 27:29Speaker 02

  Why is it?

• 27:30Nilay Patel?

  Like, there's like 10 billion people in the world who think the E is the web.

• 27:32Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 27:33Nilay Patel?

  Yeah. And you know what? It's time for something new. No, but that's because you're addicted to new things. That's why you're like on the verge.

• 27:40Speaker 03

  Read the verge. No, I'm a creature of habit, for sure.

• 27:42Speaker 02

  Those 10 billion people in the world that.

• 27:44Nilay Patel?

  I so disagree with you.

• 27:46Speaker 03

  I'm definitely a creature of habit.

• 27:47Nilay Patel?

  All right, all right.

• 27:48Speaker 02

  But those 10 billion people in the world are the same people that go.

• 27:50Speaker 03

  Also, there's 7 billion people in the world, but cool.

• 27:56Nilay Patel?

  That's, I wasn't gonna hear factual claim about the number of people who'd rec.

• 28:02Speaker 03

  Do you see that over there?

• 28:03Nilay Patel?

  Oh, my God.

• 28:04Speaker 03

  That's the rails. The rails are over there. We're over here.

• 28:11Nilay Patel?

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• 28:53Nilay Patel?

  Xero. Xero is beautiful accounting software built to help small businesses be more productive and successful. Again, sign up for that free 30-day trial today at xero.com/podcast.

• 29:05Nilay Patel?

  Here's the thing about having ads on the show. They're great because we can just stop conversations. They're the best. I would like to thank Xero for bringing that stupid conversation to a definitive end.

• 29:17Speaker 01

  I have one more question about Windows 10. Just one more.

• 29:19Nilay Patel?

  Ask Cortana how many people there are in the world.

• 29:23Speaker 02

  Hey Cortana, how many people are there in the world?

• 29:31Speaker 02

  It's giving me a bing result.

• 29:33Speaker 01

  How many people are there in the world?

• 29:34Speaker 02

  7.2 billion.

• 29:37Speaker 04

  Checking my sources.

• 29:39Nilay Patel?

  That's Syria.

• 29:40Speaker 04

  It looks like the population of the world is about 7.13 billion people.

• 29:45Nilay Patel?

  Big argument between Syria and Cortana.

• 29:47Speaker 02

  But that's the same data, though, probably.

• 29:49Nilay Patel?

  How is it the same data?

• 29:49Speaker 01

  What do you think of Cortana?

• 29:52Speaker 04

  I really couldn't say.

• 29:55Nilay Patel?

  It's catty.

• 29:55Speaker 01

  Beef. Wow.

• 29:56Nilay Patel?

  Okay. Ask what she thinks of Google Now.

• 30:01Speaker 01

  What do you think of Google Now?

• 30:04Speaker 04

  I'm sorry, Dieter. I'm afraid I can't answer that.

• 30:07Speaker 01

  What do you think of Alexa?

• 30:11Speaker 02

  I'm sorry, Dieter. I'm afraid I can't answer that.

• 30:14Nilay Patel?

  Man.

• 30:15Speaker 01

  It's not talking.

• 30:16Nilay Patel?

  Ice cold.

• 30:17Speaker 02

  Wait, let's ask Cortana what she thinks of Siri.

• 30:20Speaker 03

  What do you think about Siri?

• 30:24Nilay Patel?

  Yeah, she doesn't like talking to other people. She's not gossiping. She's not gossiping. She's just like a regular assistant wanting to help. What does Cortana say?

• 30:33Speaker 02

  What do you think of Siri?

• 30:34Speaker 01

  The Twitter fight between Nicki Minaj and Taylor Swift.

• 30:36Nilay Patel?

  Super done with this. John, do we have another ad?

• 30:41Nilay Patel?

  Can I turn this moment into money in any way possible?

• 30:45Speaker 01

  Here's my question. How hype, how big, how big is Microsoft going with this launch? Are we going to see ads plaster across the planet? Are we going to, are they, who'd they hire for Windows 95? What was like the?

• 30:58Nilay Patel?

  It was a Rolling Stones.

• 30:58Speaker 01

  It was a Rolling Stones. Start me up. Like, are they gonna go like massive?

• 31:02Speaker 02

  Friends as well, don't forget.

• 31:03Speaker 01

  Yeah, and friends. Yeah. Or are they gonna be like, ah, here it is, guys. Go get it. Because they need everybody on it to like succeed in their plans to like, you know, win it.

• 31:10Speaker 02

  I think, I think we might, we're gonna see a lot of advertising, but I think we're gonna see more in October. I think ready for the holidays.

• 31:16Speaker 01

  Right.

• 31:16Speaker 02

  Well, no, after bad school.

• 31:18Nilay Patel?

  Oh, yeah, well.

• 31:20Speaker 02

  Bad school September. I mean, for, yeah, for the holidays.

• 31:23Speaker 03

  Tom, how many installs by the end of the year?

• 31:25Speaker 01

  Oof, oof, oof.

• 31:27Speaker 03

  Ten million?

• 31:28Speaker 02

  That's a good, that's a good question, that is.

• 31:30Speaker 01

  Gotta be higher than that.

• 31:31Speaker 02

  It's gotta be, yeah.

• 31:31Speaker 01

  Yeah. Oh, yeah.

• 31:33Speaker 03

  Ten million by the end of the year?

• 31:34Speaker 01

  Their target's like 1.5 billion. Not by the end of the year, but that's.

• 31:37Speaker 02

  One billion.

• 31:38Speaker 01

  One billion. Right, right.

• 31:39Speaker 02

  But in three years, which isn't.

• 31:40Nilay Patel?

  One-seventh of the world's population.

• 31:43Speaker 03

  You're reverse trolling now, I see what you're doing.

• 31:46Speaker 01

  Although by the time that they get it done, it might be one.

• 31:48Speaker 03

  The population's gonna be.

• 31:49Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 31:49Speaker 02

  Yeah, the population should be like nine billion. But that's not like a crazy target. Like, there's 300 million roughly PCs that ship every year.

• 31:56Speaker 01

  Right.

• 31:57Speaker 02

  In three years.

• 31:57Speaker 03

  There's 300 million PCs that ship every year?

• 32:00Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 32:02Speaker 03

  Who is, I guess businesses, right?

• 32:04Nilay Patel?

  Yeah, businesses are also regular people.

• 32:06Speaker 01

  Human beings, human beings who don't want to spend a thousand bucks on a MacBook.

• 32:10Nilay Patel?

  Day to day in your life?

• 32:11Speaker 03

  Not really.

• 32:12Nilay Patel?

  Wow. That's crazy.

• 32:14Speaker 03

  Not really, no.

• 32:15Nilay Patel?

  Wow. That's like really crazy. Do you know anybody who has a job?

• 32:20Speaker 03

  Oh, I mean, for job. Yeah, yeah, like, yeah.

• 32:23Nilay Patel?

  But you don't know anybody who like bought a PC recently?

• 32:25Speaker 03

  No.

• 32:25Nilay Patel?

  All your friends have Macs.

• 32:26Speaker 03

  Laptops, Max, yeah.

• 32:28Nilay Patel?

  Oh, man. I feel like this is would be an excellent question to ask Nicola as well.

• 32:31Speaker 03

  Yeah, yeah, much better question. I mean, I'm a tech nerd, right? So like.

• 32:34Nilay Patel?

  So they all, my friends have taste.

• 32:37Speaker 03

  No.

• 32:38Nilay Patel?

  You're just sort of like.

• 32:38Speaker 03

  No, my friends are nerds. It's what I'm saying.

• 32:41Nilay Patel?

  Lots of nerds have PCs. They listen to this show. You're gonna get so much email. It's [email protected].

• 32:47Speaker 03

  Say hello.

• 32:49Nilay Patel?

  You can email him. Read off your phone number.

• 32:51Speaker 02

  Especially if you live in Texas.

• 32:52Speaker 01

  Email Sam right now.

• 32:54Speaker 03

  Yeah, actually, yeah. If you're listening to this Vergecast and you are, you own a PC, or in the future, if you're listening to this and you have a PC,

• 33:04Speaker 03

  email me, [email protected].

• 33:05Nilay Patel?

  Sam's getting an email.

• 33:08Speaker 03

  No, this is a group thread I have about Supreme shoes with my friends.

• 33:12Nilay Patel?

  Ask them if they have a PC. All right, we gotta move on.

• 33:15Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 33:15Nilay Patel?

  So the whole point of reading the ad is to move on. We're like, minutes later, we have to move on.

• 33:18Speaker 03

  What are you talking about, Apple Music?

• 33:20Nilay Patel?

  No, well, we should talk about the earnings.

• 33:21Speaker 03

  We can't help but talk about Apple.

• 33:22Nilay Patel?

  The watch.

• 33:23Speaker 03

  Oh.

• 33:23Nilay Patel?

  The watch was revealed obliquely in the earnings.

• 33:27Speaker 03

  Dieter wrote a really good piece.

• 33:29Nilay Patel?

  Do you want to know the backstory of that piece?

• 33:31Speaker 03

  Some, you said, do a thing. And Dieter was like, and it was done.

• 33:36Nilay Patel?

  Yes. Dieter, my content robot then took over. No, it was just like, okay, so Apple earnings, do you want to, Dieter, do the highlights? Because you were actually on the call.

• 33:45Speaker 01

  Yeah, they had, um, they had a record quarter, but they, analysts were hoping they'd hit, they'd sell 50 million iPhones. They sold, I don't know, 47 million or something. And so everyone was like, oh, my God. And they lost like $60 million in market cap or something in like a second. They just, and so like, Wall Street was very unhappy, but I don't care. Like, I, I almost don't even know what to say about like the general, like, financial stuff with Apple anymore. Because it's just, the numbers are so big that it's always like, yeah, they're a company. They've got like $200 billion in cash. 90% of it's offshore. Like, what do you even do with that? They're just, they're so big.

• 34:23Speaker 02

  I think Wall Street reacts in that way because. The the switch in like from from the year on year is sixty some sixty four percent, sixty five percent of iPhone is their revenue, whereas it's fifty odd percent last year. And that's not like a good way to be going, especially when you introduce the stuff like the watch and.

• 34:41Nilay Patel?

  Well, the watch is new. You gotta give the watch a little bit.

• 34:43Speaker 01

  So here's the the watch they.

• 34:45Speaker 02

  But that's only because the iPhone sales have got crazy huge.

• 34:48Speaker 01

  Right, right.

• 34:49Speaker 02

  So it's swamping their revenue.

• 34:50Speaker 01

  Right. So the watch, they very explicitly say they don't tell you how many they they sold. They don't tell you how much money they're making off of it. It's all in the other category. And so everybody looked at the other category, which includes iPods and also like accessories and said, oh, wow, it looks like, you know, the difference here is about nine hundred fifty two million dollars. So that's about how much you made on the Apple Watch. And well, the CFO and Tim Cook are like, no, no, no, no, no, no. All those other things dropped. And so it's well over that amount. So we've been, you know, saying it's a billion dollar business, could be more. There was an estimate that was like 1.4 billion. Who knows?

• 35:26Nilay Patel?

  Where did that estimate come from?

• 35:27Speaker 01

  If you it's there's year over year and quarter over quarter difference. And then you kind of just play with those numbers until you find something that makes you feel good.

• 35:33Speaker 02

  It's all a big guesstimate.

• 35:34Nilay Patel?

  Well, so but the thing about the year over year, and I was I contributed to this. I just purchased a pair of Beats headphones.

• 35:41Speaker 01

  Oh, you're the one.

• 35:44Nilay Patel?

  The the studios, because they're noise cancelling.

• 35:46Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 35:47Nilay Patel?

  I'm about to go on a long plane ride.

• 35:49Speaker 03

  You're hype.

• 35:50Speaker 01

  How long is your plane ride?

• 35:51Speaker 03

  You're a literal hype beast.

• 35:52Nilay Patel?

  It's eighteen hours.

• 35:53Speaker 03

  Oh, my God. You literally bought Beats. You are Neil Ippertal's a hype beast. Done.

• 35:58Nilay Patel?

  I asked Chris Sigler, my resident headphone expert. I didn't want to buy the Bose ones. I'm opposed to buying Bose ones.

• 36:04Speaker 01

  Look, Sam, now that now that Apple owns Beats, you should be all aboard and.

• 36:09Nilay Patel?

  I almost bought the Quiet Comfort. I almost bought the Bose ones, but I think the Bose ones look a little janky.

• 36:14Speaker 03

  You wanted you wanted sound cancel. Noise cancelling headphones and you bought Beats?

• 36:18Nilay Patel?

  Yeah, but the the studio Beats that have noise cancelling. But we'll see, maybe they're maybe they're gonna suck, they might suck, but I just bought.

• 36:24Speaker 01

  Would you buy a Best Buy?

• 36:25Nilay Patel?

  Yes.

• 36:25Speaker 01

  Oh my.

• 36:27Nilay Patel?

  I bought everything. I bought them from Amazon.

• 36:30Speaker 01

  Okay, good.

• 36:31Nilay Patel?

  Like, literally, my brain is like, I should have something in somewhere, a server in Amazon's network is like, I'm already sending it to you.

• 36:37Speaker 01

  You also bought a sweet camera for your trip.

• 36:39Nilay Patel?

  I bought an RX 10, I sent you an RX 10. So I bought, I bought some gear.

• 36:42Speaker 01

  What are you gonna buy from the Best Buy airport kiosk?

• 36:45Nilay Patel?

  I'm gonna buy an MTPod, I'm going, why do I have this? By the way, iPod Classic with the Lightning connector is a thing that I want right now.

• 36:52Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 36:53Nilay Patel?

  Think about it. I want a big ass hard drive with music on it. It's like, this is my music.

• 36:57Speaker 01

  128GB iPod Touch or your iPhone.

• 37:02Nilay Patel?

  You don't understand. I want the wheel. I want the whole thing. I want the whole experience.

• 37:06Speaker 01

  It's like you and yourself in like this world that exists. He's set in his ways, you see.

• 37:11Nilay Patel?

  Oh, I want to, I've been in the new world. I would like to go back to the, this is, it's like, it's the ancient Greece of music listening.

• 37:20Speaker 01

  And that's the thing about trying to go back to the old, the old world. The new world and the old world of Apple Music dunk it along together.

• 37:27Speaker 02

  It just sounds like you're on the lost side.

• 37:28Speaker 03

  We should just wanna go talk about Apple Music.

• 37:30Speaker 01

  Alright, so, we don't know how many, we don't know how many Apple Watches were sold. Estimates range from like 103 to near 4.

• 37:37Speaker 02

  2.5 million to 3 million.

• 37:39Nilay Patel?

  Wait, I didn't say the thing. So the, the revenue, the reason I was talking about Beats headphones.

• 37:43Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 37:43Nilay Patel?

  Is last year, Apple didn't own Beats.

• 37:45Speaker 01

  Right.

• 37:46Nilay Patel?

  Beats is a billion dollar business.

• 37:48Speaker 01

  Right.

• 37:48Nilay Patel?

  Right? So every quarter that you've got to factor in another quarter billion dollars or so.

• 37:53Speaker 01

  Did they mention Beats in their own, in the earnings?

• 37:55Nilay Patel?

  No, it's all lumped into others.

• 37:57Speaker 01

  Lumped in. Others the big mystery. Got it.

• 37:59Nilay Patel?

  Right? So in other is the iPod, is Beats, is Apple TV, is like all this stuff, is the watch.

• 38:05Speaker 01

  The, the joke that I put in my article that I, I, full disclosure, stole from my fiancee was that the most valuable thing about the iPod to Apple's business right now is it hides the actual revenue numbers for the Apple Watch.

• 38:18Nilay Patel?

  Right. I mean, so it's weird. So.

• 38:22Nilay Patel?

  Apple's making it seem like inside of this number, the, the watch is a huge success.

• 38:26Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 38:26Nilay Patel?

  But then there's people, lots of people I know, actual human beings were like, I'm not wearing it anymore. So I, they sold a bunch, but what they need to, to do to sell even more is convince people that it's useful. And if people who bought it aren't convinced, then they're not going to be able to, to accelerate that curve. The way that they did with the iPhone and the iPad and all these other products.

• 38:47Speaker 01

  The story, yeah, the story that, that Apple tells you is that the, their best sales month so far was June, when they finally got enough inventory. And so they're making the claim that sales are accelerating and that they're going to accelerate even more. And they're claiming it's going to be like the, the hottest thing in the holidays.

• 39:02Speaker 02

  That's just Apple recording their sales in June. Cause they, they track shipments and then they record their.

• 39:08Speaker 01

  Right.

• 39:08Nilay Patel?

  So I'd actually, I would guarantee you that Apple will have a great holiday with the Apple Watch.

• 39:13Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 39:14Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 39:14Nilay Patel?

  Right. It's, it's like, it's, it's a, it's priced to be a present, at least the sport is.

• 39:19Speaker 01

  It's a gift, right?

• 39:20Nilay Patel?

  So like lots of parents are going to buy them.

• 39:23Speaker 03

  Uh, I have about 15 emails in my inbox, kid you not, that are PC owners. I own a PC.

• 39:31Nilay Patel?

  Okay. Now, now here's what I'm gonna say.

• 39:34Speaker 03

  Thanks for my inbox.

• 39:35Nilay Patel?

  If you have an Apple Watch, email Sam at theverge.com and tell them.

• 39:38Speaker 03

  Oh, that's a good one too. If you own an Apple Watch, I'm Sam at theverge.com. Tell me how you like it. You can be honest. I won't, you know, post it anywhere, but like I said.

• 39:46Nilay Patel?

  Wait, wait, hold on. Don't make that guarantee. He might post it somewhere. Let's see what people say. It may be really interesting.

• 39:52Speaker 03

  Just be honest with me because I, I mean.

• 39:54Nilay Patel?

  Just be honest. You're in a relationship with Sam.

• 39:57Speaker 03

  Yeah, be honest.

• 39:58Nilay Patel?

  Listen, baby.

• 39:58Speaker 03

  Cause I never lie to you. I bought the Apple Watch because, for reasons, because it's a Gen one product and it's an Apple product. And I wanted to use it and it's, it's very basic.

• 40:07Nilay Patel?

  Yeah, that's what it is. It doesn't do a whole lot.

• 40:09Speaker 02

  It's a watch.

• 40:10Speaker 03

  And, and.

• 40:10Nilay Patel?

  It's a watch.

• 40:11Speaker 03

  And for Apple to continue the momentum that they have with this, they need to make it better. And thinner and put a camera on it.

• 40:21Nilay Patel?

  Wait, wait.

• 40:21Speaker 02

  A camera.

• 40:22Nilay Patel?

  You want to FaceTime off your watch?

• 40:23Speaker 03

  Hell yes.

• 40:24Nilay Patel?

  Crazy person.

• 40:25Speaker 02

  So, but the, the thing with the Apple Watch, you hold it up.

• 40:27Nilay Patel?

  Oh, Tom's doing one.

• 40:28Speaker 02

  Yeah. And you do a few things with it and then your arm hurts.

• 40:31Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 40:31Speaker 02

  And there's like no way around that. So I don't.

• 40:33Speaker 03

  Like when I'm waiting in a traffic light, reading something, it's like eight seconds until I'm like, what, what is this? Okay, that's better.

• 40:40Nilay Patel?

  I just, I'm just, I still just rather use my phone. Stop beating me.

• 40:43Speaker 02

  The only thing I like it for.

• 40:44Nilay Patel?

  I know what you're doing. Dieter is using the Beam app on his phone. That's great.

• 40:50Speaker 03

  Sounds like shaving his chin at the same time.

• 40:53Speaker 02

  But I use it for Apple Pay because in the UK we have contact lists everywhere.

• 40:56Nilay Patel?

  Oh, you know a thing about the watch that I discovered?

• 40:58Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 40:59Nilay Patel?

  Uh, if you have the watch that's paired to your phone and you leave your house with a watch, your phone battery just goes to shit.

• 41:06Speaker 01

  Oh, if you leave the watch at your house, right, right?

• 41:08Nilay Patel?

  If your phone is just constantly hunting for the watch, you're done. You will, you don't have a battery anymore. You have a dead phone. And that's, that is not acceptable, right? Like, yeah, Apple should maybe know that sometimes they're gonna take your phone and not your watch.

• 41:25Speaker 02

  Yeah, it should cut the Bluetooth.

• 41:27Nilay Patel?

  And it just doesn't. It's just like, what do you think? Cause you know, my theory of, uh, uh, the watch is that it's designed around only working at Apple. And that the, they can't, Apple can't conceive of what a life outside of Apple is.

• 41:40Speaker 01

  A life outside of, a life inside Apple, I think, includes getting like four notifications a day.

• 41:46Nilay Patel?

  No, cause they're all meetings. Apple has this like famous meeting culture.

• 41:50Speaker 01

  No, I know, I know, I know. I get it. Like, and it's great for that. But what I'm, I'm trying to throw shade at the way that iOS still handles notifications. It's the, and, and on the watch, it's, it's even worse. Like I had.

• 42:02Speaker 02

  I, I'd swipe that. I use the watch now.

• 42:04Nilay Patel?

  We, we just, okay, we're done. We gotta, we gotta finish earnings.

• 42:08Speaker 01

  We're done with earnings.

• 42:09Nilay Patel?

  Would not recommend the watch.

• 42:10Speaker 02

  I wouldn't recommend it to anyone.

• 42:11Speaker 01

  I wouldn't recommend any smart watch to anybody that costs that, I mean, not yet. We don't know yet.

• 42:15Speaker 02

  If this was a hundred dollars, I'd recommend it to everyone.

• 42:21Nilay Patel?

  We're gonna talk about music. We have a little bit left to talk about music. Cause music is the, there's a thing that happened.

• 42:27Speaker 01

  We can't talk about, we can't have a Vergecast without talking about Apple Music is basically the new rule. I'm sorry. That is what we do now. We talk about Apple Music.

• 42:35Nilay Patel?

  If we are gonna do the thing.

• 42:36Speaker 01

  If you'd like to sponsor the complain about Apple Music section of the Vergecast, email Sam.

• 42:43Nilay Patel?

  Don't do it. Actually, I would love if we had a dedicated sponsor for just hating it. It can't be another music company.

• 42:48Speaker 01

  Right. It can't.

• 42:49Nilay Patel?

  But if like.

• 42:49Speaker 02

  Spotify.

• 42:50Nilay Patel?

  If, yeah, okay, couldn't be like Spotify.

• 42:52Speaker 01

  It can't be Samsung.

• 42:53Nilay Patel?

  It'd have to be totally, it'd have to be like consumer, like Tide.

• 42:55Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 42:56Nilay Patel?

  Like Tide's like, clean up your music library. And then we'd be like, Apple Music blows.

• 43:05Nilay Patel?

  That would be great. Like, I'm open to that.

• 43:07Speaker 02

  Or Mailchimp.

• 43:09Nilay Patel?

  It's gotta be like, it's gotta be like, campers or some shit. Be like, you know what else is shit? Shit in his diapers.

• 43:16Speaker 01

  No, it's gotta be like, like Bob's Concrete. Just like, it's some local business.

• 43:20Nilay Patel?

  You don't understand what I'm saying.

• 43:24Speaker 02

  Bob's Concrete. Do you wanna bury iTunes?

• 43:27Nilay Patel?

  Do you know what you'll regret as well? Eating these pizza rolls. Well, you know what also sounds like a good idea at four in the morning? iTunes in the cloud.

• 43:40Speaker 03

  Oh, my goodness.

• 43:41Speaker 02

  Sick burns.

• 43:42Nilay Patel?

  Sorry to burn pizza rolls.

• 43:46Nilay Patel?

  Totino's, you're good. Call me.

• 43:47Speaker 03

  They really are hot fired.

• 43:49Speaker 01

  I've checked Totino's Pizza Rolls.

• 43:50Speaker 03

  I mean, you gotta be really careful when you eat it, because when you bite into it, and it's like, an explosion of hot lava, and then you're just like, I can't eat this. That's a, a visual.

• 44:02Speaker 03

  I'm done.

• 44:02Nilay Patel?

  How old are you that you're still fucking up pizza rolls?

• 44:05Speaker 03

  Dude, you put it in the oven, and you take it out, and it's like, little, little hot pockets.

• 44:10Nilay Patel?

  Well, this has been a night with Stone Sam Shepard.

• 44:14Speaker 03

  It's five twenty in the afternoon, five fourteen even.

• 44:17Nilay Patel?

  Can we do an evening with Stone Sam Shepard? It's like piano music and like moody lighting.

• 44:21Speaker 01

  Have you not opened Periscope after eight o'clock? I mean.

• 44:24Speaker 02

  Were you stoned when you broke your watch?

• 44:29Speaker 03

  No, I came back from the bar. I had one beer. I had one beer.

• 44:32Nilay Patel?

  Alright, alright.

• 44:33Speaker 01

  Alright, so, Apple Music.

• 44:34Nilay Patel?

  So here, let me, let's just do the backstory. So we reviewed Apple Music. Michael was iffy on it. We have been noticing bugs with it a lot. It's gone down a bunch. They were gonna do, they were gonna announce the VMA nominations on Beats One Radio. Beats One Radio went down. It took iTunes in the cloud with it. It took Apple Music, like.

• 44:51Speaker 01

  It took everything related to the Apple Store. The Mac App Store, the App Store, uh, iTunes, Apple Music.

• 44:57Nilay Patel?

  I mean, it's, it's a cliche at this point, but Apple and internet services don't really get along.

• 45:04Speaker 03

  Just gonna say, this is like, a good way of saying Apple and cloud services, so.

• 45:08Speaker 01

  Well, it's like, it's actually a bad way, because it's like, so tiresome at this point. It's like, yeah, well, okay.

• 45:13Nilay Patel?

  Yeah, like, Apple sucks at this. So then, and I think this is, this is the one that gets me.

• 45:19Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 45:19Nilay Patel?

  Jim Dolermpel, who runs Loop Inside the Loop, is.

• 45:24Nilay Patel?

  Unabashedly a fan of Apple. I think that's a fair characterization. He's, he, he, Apple and Jim get along. He likes their products. So he wrote a glowing review of Apple Music three weeks ago. He's like, I'm really impressed. And then when all the stuff went down the other day, it hosed his music library, it hosed a bunch of people's music. And he wrote this like scathing blog post, calling it a nightmare, saying he was done with it, saying he was never going to trust Apple his data again. And that to me, that's the biggest, you losing those people is you, you're, you've really effed it up, right? Like you can't all, you can't, you can't be that bad. If Apple Music was just as good as Spotify, it would have been fine.

• 46:07Speaker 02

  Well, my problem with Apple Music is iTunes is the.

• 46:11Speaker 01

  Well, that's like, that was the core of Daryl's problem too. The mix of like his music library and Apple Music or what Apple Music thought of his library.

• 46:19Nilay Patel?

  And Chris Welch was explaining to me at length what the problem is, which is they had iTunes, which was file based.

• 46:25Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 46:26Nilay Patel?

  Then they did iTunes in the cloud and iTunes match, which matches your files to Apple's collection of iTunes files.

• 46:34Speaker 02

  Yep.

• 46:35Nilay Patel?

  Um, and then if you don't, they don't have a match for you, they upload your music and then on, and that worked fine.

• 46:40Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 46:40Nilay Patel?

  iTunes match worked fine-ish. It wasn't great, but like it wasn't eating stuff. Then they grafted the streaming service onto it and they didn't replace it and they didn't do the graft well enough. So now iTunes in the cloud is super messed up because it's built on the back of the streaming service, which doesn't quite work well. And it's deleting stuff and then removing album art and like that match process is what's destroying people's lives.

• 47:03Speaker 01

  Right. But, and so like, that's the terrible problem. But the one that gets me is the, the problem that he experienced when he like tried to add a new album. And, uh, Apple Music is like, oh, well, this is like a best of, and I know you've already got these other three songs, so I'm just not going to add those.

• 47:18Nilay Patel?

  Right.

• 47:18Speaker 01

  And like, I want, I want the album, yo, just give me, and then you like, you double add it, you fix it. And then you come back the next day and it's all broken again.

• 47:25Nilay Patel?

  My theory here, and this is really nerdy, but I, I think Vergecast listeners will appreciate the nerdiness of it. Is it iTunes is conceptual, the metaphor for iTunes is conceptually totally different than the metaphor for Apple Music.

• 47:40Nilay Patel?

  Right, so iTunes is all about files and moving files. It's the metaphor is a physical music collection that you have and own. And you can do the stuff with it that you want to do. And the metaphor, and this is gonna sound crazy, but the metaphor for every streaming service is still radio. Right, it's still, you pick some songs and they play at you and you can put them in a playlist. But you never own the stuff. But it's still like you turn it on and turn it off and like stuff is happening. And there's never any concept of ownership in there.

• 48:08Speaker 02

  No.

• 48:08Nilay Patel?

  So there's no sense of what is yours.

• 48:11Speaker 02

  Not ownership.

• 48:11Nilay Patel?

  Right, there's never, Emily's point about every streaming service is now you own all the music. And the only thing that you're really doing is applying some filters to all the music so that you can listen to some of it.

• 48:22Speaker 02

  And you're constantly reminded there's no ownership because songs disappear.

• 48:25Nilay Patel?

  Right.

• 48:26Speaker 02

  Like they'll still be in your playlist for you women to play them because they've been removed.

• 48:29Nilay Patel?

  Right, so what I don't get about Apple Music at all and like just all this stuff, like all these problems are conceptual problems with it. The clash between these metaphors. All they needed to do was say if you sign up for Apple Music, every buy button in the iTunes store is gonna turn into a get button. Right, and then everybody who understands iTunes would be like, that's awesome. And they would just like sign up for it and they would just keep using iTunes and other people have used it. They tried to add all this other stuff and it got totally away from them.

• 48:54Speaker 02

  I think a part of it is the new and the old and it's, I think it's Apple facing like a problem that Microsoft always has is like,

• 49:00Nilay Patel?

  Right, yeah.

• 49:01Speaker 02

  You've got all these people on this old stuff, this legacy stuff. How do we kind of graft stuff in and still keep them comfortable and all that sort of stuff?

• 49:07Nilay Patel?

  Yeah.

• 49:08Speaker 02

  Whereas Beats Music was fine because it was just a new app and it was something new and it worked.

• 49:12Nilay Patel?

  You say that if we're gonna, if we're, what was the thing? If we're gonna obviate, if we're gonna cannibalize anything, we're gonna cannibalize ourselves. They refuse to cannibalize iTunes.

• 49:20Speaker 02

  And this is something I think that you're gonna see a lot with Apple as they grow their base. They're gonna, when they try to do new things, innovative things, they're gonna be careful about the old stuff.

• 49:31Nilay Patel?

  Right.

• 49:31Speaker 02

  And it's just, you know, that's part, definitely part of the problem with Apple Music. Crafting all that stuff on top of iTunes is a terrible experience if you've got an iPhone and a Windows machine. And I've, you know, the only way to use it is through iTunes on Windows, which is.

• 49:45Nilay Patel?

  Right, which is abandonedware.

• 49:47Speaker 02

  Yeah, it's not, it's not a fun way to do it.

• 49:49Nilay Patel?

  We were all hoping that what they would do is upgrade iTunes.

• 49:53Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 49:53Nilay Patel?

  Right, that, we thought they would make it better and like pull the iPhone management somewhere else because now you don't need it as much.

• 50:00Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 50:00Nilay Patel?

  Pull all the other garbage it does.

• 50:02Speaker 02

  Or just do a separate app and pull in all of the playlists that are in your iTunes library.

• 50:06Speaker 03

  Into. Or just have it scan. Spotify playlists and import them.

• 50:11Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah.

• 50:12Nilay Patel?

  They just tried to do too much with this app.

• 50:14Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 50:15Nilay Patel?

  I don't use. Also too little, like it was a year. They bought the thing a year ago.

• 50:19Speaker 03

  What?

• 50:19Nilay Patel?

  They bought Beats a year ago. They bought it last May.

• 50:22Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 50:23Nilay Patel?

  What have you been doing for a year?

• 50:25Speaker 02

  And the thing is, Beats was like, there was none of these issues because you didn't have that that legacy to bolt it all on to.

• 50:31Nilay Patel?

  Right. And then, and then on top of it, because they moved every, all the authentication to your Apple ID, it's like you're buying in. You have to do too much buy in. Right. You're like, now all of my iTunes are a part of this. What if I just don't want to do that? Like, what if I just want to try this out? And you can't.

• 50:46Speaker 02

  The iPhone's on the free month of twelve, right?

• 50:48Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 50:49Speaker 02

  See what happens after that.

• 50:50Nilay Patel?

  No, but it still screws with your life.

• 50:52Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 50:53Nilay Patel?

  It's like messes with your files and like moves you around. Like, I don't. I, I think what everybody wanted was for Apple to look at the mess that was iTunes.

• 51:02Speaker 03

  And just fix it all.

• 51:04Nilay Patel?

  And fix it. And instead they just added more stuff to iTunes. And now iTunes is slow as hell. It's actually like, it's like you're saying, uh, it's, it's web, there's a web something happening back there. Right. It's sort of like over JSON, like iTunes breaks in crazy ways and like shows you source code. Right. It's like, it's just, it's just a mess. And I think it's a mess because it's never going to make any money for Apple. It's like this prestige product because they want to say they're good with artists. They want to be known as a creative company. But all of their money is in the iPhone. So all of their engineering effort and best people.

• 51:39Speaker 02

  Is iOS an iPhone?

• 51:40Nilay Patel?

  Goes to the iPhone and iOS. And this one piece of the iPhone is like a mess. It's just a mess. Like, listening to music on iPhone is like a messy product. This is why I want an iPod.

• 51:51Speaker 03

  Listening to music with Apple Music on the phone is a problem.

• 51:54Nilay Patel?

  No, because Spotify is a heap of garbage too. The best thing ever happened.

• 51:58Speaker 03

  Yes, it is. Yes, it is. We're not doing this.

• 52:00Speaker 02

  Do this again.

• 52:01Nilay Patel?

  The last thing that ever happened to Spotify is that Apple Music made it look good.

• 52:06Speaker 03

  No, the day Spotify came to the US, I jumped right on that thing.

• 52:10Nilay Patel?

  I know, we've heard your history, man. Beautiful love story of Sam and Spotify.

• 52:15Speaker 01

  I'm gonna sit back and drink my artisanal cold brew and listen to Ardio.

• 52:18Speaker 02

  I'll tell you the one, the one thing about Apple Music and like the Apple Watches and stuff like that, that's quite worrying about Apple in general is that they're just like really hard to use and understand.

• 52:31Nilay Patel?

  There's no owner, like Apple Music, there's nobody who owned it. You can feel it.

• 52:34Speaker 02

  Yeah, it just feels like something's been thrown together. And the Apple Watch is kind of like, I never use the...

• 52:40Nilay Patel?

  You use the crown.

• 52:40Speaker 02

  Like, why is it there?

• 52:41Speaker 01

  I use the crown, the, the, here's why I use the crown. I use the crown to scroll down to hit the frickin dismiss button, button because you can't swipe stuff half the time. That's when I use the crown. Why can't I just...

• 52:51Nilay Patel?

  Messy.

• 52:51Speaker 01

  Nah.

• 52:52Speaker 02

  But then just going in and out, yeah. Aside from that, but the Apple, like when I first used Apple Music, I don't, I've always used Spotify on here. So I hadn't used it for a few times. So I'm like a new user going into it. I'm like, what, how does this work?

• 53:06Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 53:06Speaker 02

  What's happening? Why is there like a trillion things when I click on, trillion different options when I click on?

• 53:11Speaker 01

  I'm gonna, I'm gonna, I'm gonna cater to, uh...

• 53:13Speaker 02

  It's weird.

• 53:14Speaker 01

  We, we should all switch to Groove.

• 53:17Speaker 02

  No.

• 53:17Speaker 01

  Now, we should all switch to Google Play Music. I mean, let's just pass.

• 53:21Speaker 02

  The groove, groove is like...

• 53:23Speaker 01

  That, you should, you should do it. Against my will, my entire staff forced me to try Google Play Music.

• 53:28Nilay Patel?

  It's not the entire staff, it's the angry people of the Verge Talk. It's the reader, they're, they're, they're right now.

• 53:33Speaker 01

  If you want Neil to use Google Play Music, email Sam at the Verge.

• 53:37Nilay Patel?

  You don't know, the tweets always say, the second I start talking to music, it's like the army, the, the five people left on Google Plus, like he's, he's doing it again.

• 53:44Speaker 03

  Wow.

• 53:44Nilay Patel?

  Everybody tell him about Google Play Music.

• 53:46Speaker 01

  Oh no.

• 53:47Nilay Patel?

  I'm sorry, man. You want to live in a ghost town? I bet it's cheap there, huh? The prices are low.

• 53:53Speaker 01

  Can we talk about...

• 53:53Nilay Patel?

  It's cool. No restaurants?

• 53:55Speaker 01

  Can we talk about hope real quick?

• 53:57Speaker 03

  Like Star Wars, a new...

• 53:58Nilay Patel?

  No.

• 53:59Speaker 01

  No.

• 53:59Nilay Patel?

  Just in general.

• 54:00Speaker 01

  I have hope about the Moto X. I have hope for every new flagship Android phone that will be the one.

• 54:05Nilay Patel?

  That it'll have a good camera.

• 54:06Speaker 03

  Yeah, I bet. Literally next week on the Verge Cast, we're gonna be like, why does that camera suck?

• 54:10Speaker 01

  Yeah, but I, right now, right now at this moment.

• 54:13Speaker 03

  Oh, there's hope.

• 54:13Speaker 01

  And I even have hope for the Moto G. They like, the Moto G is graduating from like the super cheap camera to like solid mid-range cam, or solid mid-range, mid-range phone, which is cool that all the leaks have happened. We've like seen pictures of everything. Um, but the Moto X, like...

• 54:27Speaker 03

  Is this gonna be the first time we see a Moto X when Motorola is owned by Lenovo?

• 54:32Speaker 01

  Yeah. And so the S6, it should have, should have been it, except that Samsung software, which I was willing to accept, and then battery life, which, right? Like, the battery life just wasn't good enough. So like, it was almost there. The camera was like, I would not be, I would not complain about it.

• 54:51Speaker 03

  The S6 camera?

• 54:52Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 54:52Speaker 03

  Yeah, it's great.

• 54:53Speaker 01

  It's superb.

• 54:54Speaker 03

  It's great. And the Moto X camera is not.

• 54:56Speaker 01

  Well, we'll see with the new one.

• 54:58Speaker 03

  Right, right.

• 54:58Speaker 01

  But what gets me is, I do it a little bit with the G4, I do it with every Moto X, I do it with every Samsung Galaxy, and I kind of do it with the Nexus phones. I'm always like, alright, man, this is the one. This is the one where I don't like, oh, man, wish I could, you know, have whatever, blah, blah, blah, battery life or camera that the iPhone has, or I wish I didn't hate the software, which is nuts, because like, I genuinely do prefer, like, I've, like, I don't know, maybe it's just the notification system, honestly, but like, I do like, feel like I can fly around Android better than I can fly around an iPhone.

• 55:35Speaker 03

  Oh, yeah.

• 55:35Nilay Patel?

  And material design is just like adorable.

• 55:37Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 55:38Nilay Patel?

  It's like an adore, it just looks, it's fun. It's like fun to play with.

• 55:42Speaker 03

  When does that event happen next week?

• 55:44Speaker 01

  Tuesday.

• 55:45Speaker 03

  Tuesday.

• 55:45Speaker 01

  I think.

• 55:46Nilay Patel?

  It's all going down.

• 55:47Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 55:47Nilay Patel?

  On the verge.

• 55:48Speaker 03

  Crazy tech, summer week.

• 55:50Nilay Patel?

  Yeah, it's gonna be a good week.

• 55:51Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 55:51Speaker 01

  So I have hope. Am I the only one that like, still holds out hope every time a big Android phone comes out?

• 55:56Speaker 03

  I mean, they have to do it eventually. They literally, someone has to do it. Whether it's.

• 56:01Nilay Patel?

  No, but they have to be better than the iPhone.

• 56:04Speaker 03

  No, no, no, I just mean for the camera. I mean, literally, one of the only complaints left about.

• 56:09Nilay Patel?

  They have to be better than the iPhone camera.

• 56:10Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 56:11Nilay Patel?

  Having to do that is very difficult.

• 56:13Speaker 03

  It could be as good as the iPhone camera. They just need to be better than the garbage that's out there now.

• 56:16Nilay Patel?

  But the S6 is good.

• 56:18Speaker 01

  The G4 is good.

• 56:19Speaker 03

  Yeah. And now it's like Motorola's turn.

• 56:21Nilay Patel?

  Yeah, Motorola's never been good. Motorola's never produced a good camera.

• 56:25Speaker 03

  But, but the software that it runs is a nice, clean vanilla.

• 56:28Speaker 01

  Plus, you get to do the screwdriver motion to launch it.

• 56:30Speaker 03

  Yeah, that's like the coolest thing in the world.

• 56:33Nilay Patel?

  All I want LG to do is put the GeForce camera in the Nexus 5.

• 56:38Speaker 03

  And also like

• 56:39Speaker 01

  The Nexus Nexus, the Nexus Nexus 5, I think it's rumored it's a Huawei phone is the rumor.

• 56:43Speaker 03

  Oh, come on.

• 56:44Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah, that's the current rumor.

• 56:45Nilay Patel?

  That's like Google being like, you can sit with us.

• 56:47Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 56:48Nilay Patel?

  You know, oh, are you Elon, you new, are you new to school? You can.

• 56:52Speaker 01

  Did you see that there's a rumor that that shot LG stock up, the rumor was gonna buy a 35% stake in LG?

• 56:58Nilay Patel?

  Come on.

• 56:59Speaker 01

  It got immediately denied.

• 57:00Nilay Patel?

  It's like the CEO of LG is like, I bet I can, he was like, I need to buy a boat. Like, that was like what he thought to himself. And he was like, how can I get that boat, man? And there's like his other buddies at the bar is like, just saying.

• 57:15Nilay Patel?

  He's like, I'm gonna get that boat. Like, three drinks later, it's like Googling pictures of yachts. Someone check the CEO of LG's Twitter.

• 57:24Speaker 02

  See what he's been up to.

• 57:25Nilay Patel?

  Suspiciously discussing.

• 57:26Speaker 01

  What's that billionaires account on Twitter?

• 57:28Nilay Patel?

  It's just billionaires.

• 57:29Speaker 01

  It's billionaires. If the CEO of LG follows billionaires on Twitter, then we know exactly what happened. Never mind. Billionaires tweeted a picture of a boat and then, never mind.

• 57:39Speaker 03

  I unfollowed that account. It was way too much luxury in my life.

• 57:42Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 57:42Speaker 03

  Just FYI.

• 57:44Speaker 02

  I'm currently looking at Ninja Cats.

• 57:49Nilay Patel?

  This is this thing. So tell me what's going on with Microsoft and the Ninja Cat.

• 57:53Speaker 01

  Yeah. They've got the gif of the cat carrying the flag, riding the T-Rex, whose arms are too short. And so he has to use a little extender grabber clause thing.

• 58:04Speaker 02

  Which is the meme, right?

• 58:05Speaker 01

  Is amazing. What, it's going into Skype, right?

• 58:09Speaker 02

  Yeah, it's in Skype. It's in the MOCOM. Yeah.

• 58:11Speaker 01

  What?

• 58:12Speaker 02

  Yeah, you can go in Skype and do bracket win 10 or Windows 10 close and then send off.

• 58:19Speaker 01

  All right.

• 58:20Speaker 02

  You get, it started off as a silly little thing where I'm not gonna name her, but she created a Ninja Cat, put some stickers in a room and then all the engineers came in and sort of like grabbed them and then it kind of spread from that. And now it's turned into a, you know, everyone's found out about it on the internet. It's its own meme, I guess.

• 58:42Nilay Patel?

  I mean, look, Microsoft deserves a meme. This is their moment. Yeah, it's all happening for them.

• 58:46Speaker 02

  But yeah, Ninja Cat riding bacon down a mountain.

• 58:51Nilay Patel?

  I feel like somebody at Microsoft finally got Photoshop.

• 58:56Nilay Patel?

  I got it.

• 58:57Speaker 01

  They've been forced to use Microsoft Paint this whole time.

• 59:00Nilay Patel?

  But it's all like old memes. They're like, you know, it's the kid bacon. The kids love bacon.

• 59:06Speaker 02

  This is the, no, you know, the Reddit thing.

• 59:09Nilay Patel?

  Yeah.

• 59:10Speaker 02

  That's, but that's what it's based on.

• 59:12Speaker 03

  What time does an arboral bacon?

• 59:15Nilay Patel?

  Sam, engage, engage the audience.

• 59:18Speaker 03

  Well, I think we should also.

• 59:19Nilay Patel?

  I check Apple Music right now.

• 59:21Speaker 03

  One, two. I literally don't use it.

• 59:24Nilay Patel?

  What are you gonna say?

• 59:25Speaker 03

  Oh, we should just tell the listeners and readers of the schedule for next week because there's a lot happening next week.

• 59:30Nilay Patel?

  All right.

• 59:31Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 59:32Nilay Patel?

  Want to go through it?

• 59:33Speaker 01

  Uh, we did it earlier in the show. So everything, everything, all the craziness happens basically starting at 28th. We'll have Motorola in the morning, uh, East Coast and then.

• 59:41Speaker 03

  So Monday or Tuesday.

• 59:43Speaker 01

  Tuesday.

• 59:43Speaker 03

  Tuesday.

• 59:43Speaker 01

  Um, and then you can take a breather and then, uh, Nokia has, uh, whatever this VIP event is. And then you can maybe take a breather and then into the 29th is when Windows 10 hits. And like people will be able to get the final build installed and looking at it. Uh, in addition to that, there's like other stuff happening this week from other companies. Like there's a bunch of like, whoa, this, this is going to be a thing that we care about. It was a couple of other phone makers. So like there's, there's just a bunch of stuff happening, but it's all sort of convalescing, not convalescing, colliding on the 28th. And I swear to God, I get pitches from PR people. Even now it's like, hey, we're doing a thing on the 28th. It's like,

• 1:00:27Nilay Patel?

  maybe you're not.

• 1:00:28Speaker 01

  Don't do that.

• 1:00:30Speaker 01

  So yeah, that's the big deal.

• 1:00:31Speaker 03

  So next week is a big week. Uh, okay. Engage.

• 1:00:35Nilay Patel?

  That's you, buddy.

• 1:00:37Speaker 03

  Snapchat. You use Snapchat probably. Most likely, maybe. If you do, you should follow the real verge on Snapchat and you will be entertained. And that is all I'm going to say about Snapchat. We're also on Periscope. We're at verge on Periscope like we are on Twitter. We're at verge. We live stream things at random given times like today, the Oscar Mayer Wiener mobile showed up. To the office in RC car form and it was really strange and weird and we periscoped that among many other things.

• 1:01:08Nilay Patel?

  Did you get to see how fast it went? I was told that it was extremely fast.

• 1:01:11Speaker 03

  It can like.

• 1:01:12Speaker 02

  Did it actually have hot dogs inside?

• 1:01:14Speaker 03

  Yes, it did. There was a motorized roof that like revealed hot dogs. The person who was controlling the car said that one's programmed to go about 20, 25, but it can be like jacked up to go 75, which is like, you want to see a wiener going 75 miles an hour?

• 1:01:29Nilay Patel?

  Who doesn't? Who has it?

• 1:01:32Speaker 03

  And, uh, and, uh, yeah, you should also follow us on Instagram because we post our beautiful images on there. We're also verge on Instagram and back to you, Niles.

• 1:01:42Nilay Patel?

  Well, that was it. That's our show.

• 1:01:44Speaker 02

  Job done.

• 1:01:45Nilay Patel?

  I'm gone next week, so I'm excited. Do you ever get this way where you're excited to go away while something big happens, you can come back and it already happened?

• 1:01:52Speaker 03

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:01:53Nilay Patel?

  You know what I'm talking about? I don't want to live through it. I just want to come back and.

• 1:01:56Speaker 03

  You just want to see it from afar.

• 1:01:57Speaker 02

  You just want to see the results.

• 1:01:58Nilay Patel?

  Yeah.

• 1:01:59Speaker 03

  You just want to browse Twitter for iPhone on your iPhone six plus from a beach. Sipping a martini.

• 1:02:04Nilay Patel?

  Yeah.

• 1:02:05Speaker 03

  Smoking a cigar.

• 1:02:06Nilay Patel?

  All of that sounds great, but that's not what I'm going to do.

• 1:02:10Nilay Patel?

  So.

• 1:02:11Speaker 03

  You'll find time to do it.

• 1:02:12Nilay Patel?

  Yeah. I mean, look, if you're in Cape Town in South Africa and you want to hang, send me a note. We'll be there for a while next week.

• 1:02:18Speaker 03

  How do we find you on Twitter?

• 1:02:19Nilay Patel?

  I'm reckless. Oh, nice. Good. Well done.

• 1:02:22Speaker 03

  Thanks.

• 1:02:22Nilay Patel?

  Pro professional chef.

• 1:02:26Speaker 02

  Social beast.

• 1:02:27Nilay Patel?

  Corp Sam. Corp Sam. Corporate Sam.

• 1:02:30Speaker 03

  Corp Sam. Sam Corp. Tom is Tom Warren.

• 1:02:33Nilay Patel?

  Sue chef. Tom is at Tom Warren. Dieter's at Backlon. Sam is at Sam Sheffer. He's also Sam at the verge.com.

• 1:02:40Speaker 03

  Email me, tell me your thoughts and feelings.

• 1:02:42Nilay Patel?

  You know, before the show started, he told me that he thinks Windows sucks.

• 1:02:44Speaker 03

  That's false. That's apparently false.

• 1:02:49Nilay Patel?

  There are also many ways to get ahold of him. You hear them, Sam, get ahold of us, you can hear them from Sam. We have, I don't know what the hell I'm saying. I'm not looking at the rundown.

• 1:02:58Speaker 03

  Eli's on vacation already.

• 1:02:59Nilay Patel?

  My heart is gone.

• 1:03:01Speaker 03

  So next week is anarchy on the verge cast.

• 1:03:03Nilay Patel?

  Anarchy on the verge.

• 1:03:04Speaker 02

  Utter anarchic.

• 1:03:07Nilay Patel?

  We have other podcasts which are great. There's What's Tech with Chris Plant, Emily and Liz. Actually, just a great episode of Verge GSP where they talk to neuroscientists about why spoilers actually make movies better, which is crazy. So you should listen to that.

• 1:03:20Speaker 03

  And where can you find those?

• 1:03:21Nilay Patel?

  Those are, Jesus, man. Don't make me do this like fake like press event bullshit. Be like, what do you think about the new trackpad in Windows 10, Random Actress from Star Wars?

• 1:03:31Nilay Patel?

  That's the worst.

• 1:03:31Speaker 03

  That was the worst.

• 1:03:32Nilay Patel?

  That was Samsung. No, it was Alice Eve. It was Star Trek in a Darkness.

• 1:03:38Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:03:38Nilay Patel?

  And Paul Jacobs is like, what do you think of our new turbo pipeline?

• 1:03:41Speaker 03

  That was a CES, right?

• 1:03:41Nilay Patel?

  I'm scared.

• 1:03:43Speaker 03

  I remember the cringes we had in that trailer.

• 1:03:45Nilay Patel?

  It was the worst. It was just one of the worst things. Anyway.

• 1:03:50Speaker 01

  True story.

• 1:03:50Nilay Patel?

  iTunes.com slash, wait, what is it?

• 1:03:53Speaker 01

  No, the true story is that the, the whole reason that we have the, our photo essay layout is I stayed up all night building the first one. We're like, oh, we should do that again. And we built, we created.

• 1:04:01Speaker 03

  Oh, my God, that's right. You just broke ground, Dieter.

• 1:04:05Nilay Patel?

  iTunes, that's it. That's why we work in a modern media company with great web-based tools. Sign up now.

• 1:04:10Speaker 03

  Vox.

• 1:04:11Nilay Patel?

  Vox.com slash.

• 1:04:13Speaker 01

  We are actually hiring.

• 1:04:14Nilay Patel?

  Yes, Vox.com or Voxmedia.com slash.

• 1:04:16Speaker 03

  Oh, yeah, we should mention that legitimately. We are hiring for like 50 positions across the company.

• 1:04:21Nilay Patel?

  Across the company, there are 110 open positions at Fox Media coming, coming live over the next few months.

• 1:04:26Speaker 03

  Wow.

• 1:04:27Nilay Patel?

  The Verge alone is somewhere between 15 and 20. There's 15 open right now. So just start applying for jobs. Do you like cars? Because Chris Siggler would like to talk to you. Anyway, back to the podcast. iTunes.com slash Verge. Please.

• 1:04:40Speaker 03

  It's iTunes.com slash Vergecast, isn't it?

• 1:04:42Nilay Patel?

  It's iTunes.com slash.

• 1:04:43Speaker 01

  Cause there's other things that.

• 1:04:44Nilay Patel?

  Oh, my God, so confusing. Look, do something with iTunes and make that thing related to us.

• 1:04:48Speaker 03

  And what should, what should they, when they rate it five stars, what, what should they?

• 1:04:51Nilay Patel?

  I think they should explain why Sam should use a Windows PC.

• 1:04:54Speaker 03

  Oh.

• 1:04:56Nilay Patel?

  Why Sam should switch to Windows 10. That's what I'd like to hear.

• 1:04:58Speaker 03

  Compel me, listeners.

• 1:04:59Nilay Patel?

  Compel. Jesus. It's the weakest thing like a ruler or emperor can do. Compel me, my people. All right, we're done. We're done. John is crying. The lights have turned red once again. That was Verchass. Thank you so much for listening. We'll see you again soon.

• 1:05:14Speaker 02

  Rock and roll. Goodbye.

• 1:05:15Nilay Patel?

  Bye.