20VC: Tyler Willis on How To Be Innovative With Customer Acquisition and The Future Of Innovation

Tyler Willis is probably one of the best angel investors around and has invested in seed stage companies that have gone on to raise from the likes of Index Ventures, Founders Fund, Khosla Ventures and others. Some of these investments include the likes of wildly popular ride sharing app Lyft, the incredible Patreon (now delivering 2m a month to creators) and Change.org which now has over 80m users. We would like to say a special thank you to Mattermark for providing all the data used in the show today and you can check out Mattermark Search here! In Today's Episode You Will Learn: 1.) How Tyler made it into startups and the investing industry? 2.) Where does Tyler sit on investor specialisation? Is it best to have preferred sectors and round sizes? 3.) What elements are essential for Tyler pre investment and what can be tweaked later down the line? 4.) Question from Arielle Zuckerberg: How does Tyler evaluate customer acquisition so well? What is his approach to this with potential investments and portfolio companies? 5.) Why are people so negative on the future of innovation? Is Founders Fund's 'we expected flying cars and instead got 140 characters' fair? Items Mentioned In Today's Episode: Tyler's Fave Book: Innovator's Dilemma by Clayton Christensen Tyler's Fave Blog or Newsletter: Mattermark Daily As always you can follow The Twenty Minute VC, Harry and Tyler on Twitter here! If you would like to see a more colourful side to Harry with many a mojito session, you can follow him on Instagram here!

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Harry Stebbings?

  You're listening to the 20 Minute VC with your host, Harry Stebbings. And following from our episode with Ariel Zuckerberg at Kleiner Perkins on Monday, where Ariel stated that she learnt all she knows about angel investing from the man himself, Tyler Willis, we thought, well, there's only one thing to do. We have to hear from Tyler now. So I'm delighted to welcome Tyler Willis to the show. Now Tyler is probably one of the best angel investors around, and he's invested in seed-stage companies that have gone on to raise from the likes of Index, Founders Fund, Costler Ventures and others. And some of his investments include the likes of the wildly popular ridesharing app Lyft, the incredible Patreon, now delivering 2 million a month to creators,

• 0:44Harry Stebbings?

  and change.org, which now has over 80 million users. And before we dive into the show with Tyler, and please, this is not a sponsor, this is absolutely a personal recommendation that I just love. I have to big it up to our main guys and gals at Mattermark. For all the data used in the show today, I have to say it's so much easier having the Mattermark search tool, and best of all, it's absolutely free. Also, check out Mattermark Daily for all the best articles and news sources from the world of VC and startups. And you can follow at Thinker on Twitter for that masterpiece. However, it's now time to dive into the show. So I'm delighted to welcome the one and only Tyler Willis.

• 1:31Speaker 01

  You have now arrived at your destination.

• 1:34Harry Stebbings?

  Tyler, a huge pleasure to have you on the show. Massive fan of yours, so thank you so much for joining us today.

• 1:39Speaker 02

  Yeah, thanks for having me. I'm excited about it.

• 1:41Harry Stebbings?

  Now, I'd love to kick off today's show by hearing where it all started for you and how you made your move into the world of startups and investing.

• 1:49Speaker 02

  Sure. So I've been interested in investing for a long time. It had kind of a, you know, happy coincidence of things happen. I, the first company that I was on the founding team of got acquired by Oracle. And right around that same time, a friend was raising a really small seed round, honestly, just to kind of prove out a concept that he had in the computer vision space. Not even like a normal investment for me today. You know, it's definitely really deep tech, very early, pre-product. Pre-market, pre-traction, I mean, really just a guy with an idea and a little bit of a team. But I, I just believed in Founder. I, I loved Founder. I wanted to work with him. I still want to work with him. He's still a very close friend and I just got really excited about the, the prospect of the idea in the market if it works.

• 2:32Speaker 02

  Um, so I, I did a, a small seed investment in that company. Um, and realized pretty quickly after that fact that I should probably build a portfolio. You know, the, the kind of idea of having all your eggs in one basket when it comes to angel investing is, is a kind of universally thought of as a bad idea. Um, and even though that investment went on to do pretty well, um, you know, raised two up rounds now, a series A and a series B from, both from top five Silicon Valley VCs, um, that was obviously not clear, obvious in the, in the early days. And so I realized I had to build this portfolio. So over the next year, I invested in, um, Patreon, which helps creators earn like millions of dollars a month from donations from their fans.

• 3:13Speaker 02

  Lounge Buddy, which helps people find airport lounges and read reviews about them. And then now even lets casual travelers book day passes to airport lounges. Um, and ShopPad, which has become a huge force in the Shopify ecosystem. You know, the three of them have gone on to be really successful. Uh, you know, uh, Patreon, raised a big A round from Index and Lounge Buddy raised their A from Founder's Fund and, you know, Shopify is like dominating the, uh, or sorry, ShopPad is dominating the Shopify ecosystem. So it turned out I got very lucky in year one, um, and that let me kind of keep doing it. So I kept investing a little bit more of my money and, then also, uh, got some friends and family together and, and, uh, a, a couple of small LPs. Got my own little small angel fund put together.

• 3:58Harry Stebbings?

  In terms of all the eggs in one basket, where do you sit in terms of investor specialization? Do you, do you think it's beneficial for investors to specialize in, in either a funding stage, you know, pre-seed, pre-series A, or in a particular sector, or do you prefer a very diverse portfolio?

• 4:14Speaker 02

  Personally, I prefer a diverse portfolio. Um, I think the, uh, especially as you're learning something new and I expect to be, you know, in this game, both as an entrepreneur and an investor for, you know, many more decades. Um, so particularly as you're learning, I think there's a lot of value in, in having a diverse space to learn from. I also think that if you're. You know, if one of the core competencies you have is in betting in good people, you may not always have a chance to bet in a great person in a seed round. But that great person, you know, that you see at the series C or series D even, um, might just be an obvious bet, right? So there have been investments I've made that are, you know, very, very high valuations and there are investments that I've made that have been,

• 4:56Speaker 02

  you know, what is considered now to be an incredible discount by Silicon Valley terms, you know? Uh, no, no product, no founding team track record, you know, all of that stuff. And it's a, you know, uh, you know, sub three million dollar valuation or something, which today is considered a discount. So I've got a, I've got a really broad, diverse portfolio. However, I do think that many people can be very successful with a very, um, uh, verticalized and specialized portfolio. So I think it's just a, a style question.

• 5:24Harry Stebbings?

  Does valuation play a very big role in whether you invest or not? Are you more just focused on, as I think Sheryl Sandberg said, taking a seat on the rocket ship?

• 5:33Speaker 02

  Yeah, I'm more focused on taking a seat on the rocket ship. Um, that said, generally valuation doesn't play a role in my consideration, um, in terms of do I feel like I'm getting a deal or not? Because value investing doesn't work in, in private company markets. Where it does play a role is that I try to identify opportunities that have a lot of appreciation potential. So, you know, if you expect that a lot of the investments you make are going to fail, um, the other ones have to really make up for that loss and then some, right? You know, the, the rule of thumb here is you want to have at least a 10x, you know, path to, uh, to, for the winners. And I, I think that's actually low, especially at the seed stage.

• 6:14Speaker 02

  I think at the seed stage, um, I really look for something that I expect could be, you know, explosive. I like the way Sam Altman put it, which is the best investors in the world, lose, uh, lose all of their money most of the time. And, you know, very happily because they've made 10,000x their money once or twice.

• 6:32Harry Stebbings?

  And as you know, this is a very special feature week, um, with Ariel's show, uh, on Monday. And, and you had the chance to ask Ariel some questions. So I let her turn the tables and Ariel has now suggested some for you. And so one of them is what aspects of a startup and founder are essential for you pre-investment? Compared to elements that you think can be tweaked later on down the line?

• 6:56Speaker 02

  You know, I think this has changed as I've gone through investing. I now think there are a lot of things that can't really be tweaked by the investor. I view my role as to be as supportive as I possibly can and to give advice and feedback. But ultimately, it's the entrepreneur that does, you know, ninety-nine point nine-nine-nine-nine-nine percent of the work. Now, if you're, you know, able to provide even just point zero-zero-zero-one percent of value to Uber, that's a very valuable contribution and you get compensated for it, you know, in the stock that you you've bought. So I think angel investors and DCs can be very important, can be very valuable. But I don't think they do much of the work and I really don't think they can save a ship from going off the wrong course.

• 7:41Speaker 02

  Especially not angel investors when you're not on the board and you're not, you know, looking at, you know, management inside of the company, right? So I have to really believe in the person before I invest. I'm happy with them, but the other thing I want to keep in mind is that Zuckerberg didn't look like the Zuckerberg of today in two thousand and four. And, you know, I know many people that got, you know, I was an angel investor then. I know many people that got that that investment pitch in two thousand and four and thought, this kid's a joke, no way. You know, that was obviously a massive mistake. Larry and Sergey didn't look like the Larry and Sergey of today in nineteen ninety-seven. So I'm not trying to look for a founder who's fully polished and, you know, who I absolutely know is gonna just win, but I am looking for somebody who makes me feel like, eh, there's

• 8:26Speaker 02

  a little bit of a likelihood that this person's gonna learn real fast or gonna do real well. In fact, the the kind of easy heuristic I use for that is, would I want to, am I tempted to go work for this person? You know, I've got all these things that I'm doing my own and I control my own day and my own schedule and that's fantastic. And, you know, I can, I can run my own companies and do investments and all these things that are like lovely parts of my life that I really enjoy. And if this is a person who I go, huh, maybe that should be really fun to like, you know, go in and really roll up my sleeves and work with them for a year or two or four or ten. That's the kind of, you know, thought in the back of my mind where I go, well, I'm not in a position now where I want to go work for somebody, but I sure as heck should invest in that because that's a really good signal that this person's high quality.

• 9:11Harry Stebbings?

  And talking of rolling up your sleeves there, Ariel says you're you're a beast at figuring out customer acquisition and optimizing the funnel. So I'd love to hear how you approach this, what your process is, and what determinant you think makes you so successful in this activity.

• 9:29Speaker 02

  Uh, yeah, dude, that's really kind of her to say. I would say it actually isn't secret sauce here. Um, I would say generally customer acquisition problems tend to be about, you know, really being able to sit down and think about a single problem with a, you know, massive amount of focus. Um, and then just to run lots and lots of experience, uh, experiments. So what I find is people that that do very good job of of customer acquisition or growth, um, tend to be the ones that are just focusing a a huge percentage of the company on customer acquisition or growth. Um, they tend to be the the people who are having lots and lots of ideas, um, and then are doing, uh, are using a lightweight process to make sure that they're prioritizing those ideas correctly. So I would say the

• 10:13Speaker 02

  the biggest area to focus on is just making sure that it's it's like in the core DNA of the company. It's something that, you know, it's not something where you go, I'm going to hire a growth hacker and they can figure it out. Um, but it's instead something where the founder is obsessed with growth or, you know, a big part of the team is obsessed with growth. Um, and then the second part is there's systems that are that are you can put in place to kind of help with the process of discovering what works faster, you know, optimizing for getting experiments out the door. Um, the same way you have kind of MVPs in product, you can do MVPs in growth experiments where, you know, you can say, hey, we've got this really great idea for something that would take us eight weeks to build, uh, and then, you know, three weeks to deploy. Can we do a version of that that only takes a week and see if it actually resonates with customers? Um, and so a lot

• 10:57Speaker 02

  of times it's just really unglamorous, um, grinding type work. I think, uh, a lot of growth people are are also kind of like poker people, right? They're just, they're kind of grinding it out, waiting for the the right hand to hit. And nine hands they play are bad, but as long as the ten hand is good, it it all works out.

• 11:13Harry Stebbings?

  And talking about the nine hands not working out and one maybe working out of the ten, that often relates to the portfolio. And when you look back at the investments you've made in your portfolio, do you think you have a founder type in terms of who you invest in? And if so, what is that?

• 11:31Speaker 02

  I do have a founder type that I invest in. I want to invest in people who are uniquely insightful in the market they're in. So they're discovering something that is just new, that the world doesn't know before, at least that I didn't know before. I tend to like people that are very smart. So I have a bit of a bias for, I don't know if there's like an effect for it in Silicon Valley or architect for it in Silicon Valley, but I tend to have a bias for people when I sit down and go, holy cow, that person's just very, very high IQ and very, very high octane in terms of his thinking, his or her thinking. And so that's an area where, you know, honestly, I probably missed some good investments because of that.

• 12:11Speaker 02

  Because maybe there's somebody who just kind of understands their industry and is just going to kind of grind it out and maybe isn't the flashiest or doesn't appear to be the smartest person in the room. But I have a really big bias for people that I think are just high octane. I think the reason behind that is I think it's very hard to kind of hang on and steer one of those rocket ships if you're not, you know, really flexible in that way.

• 12:34Harry Stebbings?

  A controversial kind of bone of contention in the industry relating to founders and experience. I'd love to hear your thoughts on it. Do you like founders with excessive domain experience in the field they're entering? Or do you see that actually as a hindrance as they know the pitfalls that could occur and are therefore overly cautious? Where do you sit on that dichotomy?

• 12:54Speaker 02

  I think it's a false dichotomy. So I think that there are incredibly talented people that have domain expertise. And there are people that have domain expertise, the expertise that just would be abject failures as entrepreneurs or that maybe have learned all the wrong lessons and are unwilling to kind of push the envelope. Similarly, I've seen a lot of 20-year-olds come in and tackle, you know, some deep enterprise problem and just be completely flabbergasted at how to do it and take way too long to get to market because they don't have any experience of what it's like to work in an enterprise. And so that's a really big downside. At the same point, Aaron Levy didn't know anything about the enterprise before he started Box, and that worked out brilliantly well. So I think as a,

• 13:37Speaker 02

  as an investor, your job is to avoid taking a hard stance on anything that isn't, that is potentially more noise than signal, because you, what you're looking for outliers. So Aaron Levy is an outlier. Most of the people that don't have domain expertise fail, but also most of the people fail. So the people that do have domain expertise fail too. So what you're looking for is outliers. So I try really hard not to take a hard stance on any one of these this or that areas, because frankly, the vast majority of people in both camps are going to fail, and what you're looking for is the real winner, the one person in either camp that's, that's going to be successful.

• 14:15Harry Stebbings?

  Absolutely. And you mentioned that lessons learnt. When you, when you think back to when you started Angel Investing now, is there anything that you now know that, that you didn't know back then, and you would like to impart on a, on a first time angel or yourself starting out?

• 14:29Speaker 02

  Yeah, there's, there's a few things. One of which is probably, it's good to start slow. If you think of this as a 20-year game that you're in, the first couple of years are, are business school, and you know, the third or fourth year is when you start actually having some of the lessons. So I think, you know, go slow early on, you know, find mentors you can learn from. So one of the things that I did when I started investing is I interviewed, you know, dozens of people that were successful angel investors privately. Like, I reached out and said, hey, can I pick your brain? Or I caught them at an event. You know, I was like the annoying guy that, you know, grabbed them after they were on stage and said, hey, I need five minutes of your time, like walk me through some stuff. And, and so I think the more you can do that, the better.

• 15:13Harry Stebbings?

  I think it was Rick Marini who said that the first 30 investments you make as an angel will most likely fail. Do you agree with that assessment?

• 15:21Speaker 02

  God, I hope not.

• 15:22Harry Stebbings?

  It was a worrying thing to listen to. I was rather concerned.

• 15:27Speaker 02

  This is very common parlance, you know, in investing. John Doerr, I think, put it most colorfully, which said, in order to be a good investor, you've got to crash a couple of fighter jets first. And, you know, I think he thinks that way. When he's training an investor, I think he expects that person to, at some point in the next five years, you know, blow up thirty to a hundred million dollars. That's scary. Um, so, you know, I think there is a lot of this, uh, it's a business that's, that's learned by experience. It's a business that's, you know, learned through mentorship in many ways. You know, does that mean that you're absolutely gonna fail? No, and I hope not. Uh, but it also does mean that you probably shouldn't do it if you're just viewing this as, well, I'll do it for a year and I'll invest in twenty companies and then I'll go back to doing other stuff.

• 16:12Speaker 02

  You know, this is angel, active angel investing is something you should not do unless you want to do it for the next twenty plus years of your career. Um, because you're not gonna see the big benefits of it for ten or fifteen or twenty years. So, I think the, uh, I think the, the advice is directionally accurate, uh, even if it's scary, I, I think he's probably more right than wrong.

• 16:32Harry Stebbings?

  And before we move into a quickfire round, I'd love to discuss the future of innovation, and it was a recent article of yours, and I absolutely loved it. Um, but it's absolutely right. And so, why do you believe that people are so negative on innovation and the future of innovation?

• 16:49Speaker 02

  Yeah, so I, I have a theory, I don't know if somebody else is, probably somebody smarter than me has, uh, has written an academic paper about this, but I have a general theory that the world is getting better. I'm optimistic, um, by nature. Um, and if you look at the data, you know, our world and data and all those sources, uh, you can see, you know, crime rates are massively down, poverty is, is, you know, way down, et cetera, et cetera. Part of the reason all those things are, are, you know, moving in the right direction is because society is focusing on solving those problems more directly. And we have things like, you know, the twenty-four hour news cycle that highlights these things and, you know, makes them such a huge issue and gets people riled up and then the people kind of push, you know, government or, or companies or whatever else to fix it.

• 17:30Speaker 02

  So, you're ending up with, you know, again, much more attention focused on fixing humanity's big problems, um, which is fantastic, but the problem is, the way that we get that attention focused on the problem is by... scaring everyone and telling everyone how bad everything is and highlighting the worst possible thing so you get this kind of sunlight paradox which is the way you you cure darkness is by shining light on it um but by shining light on it you show everyone that the world is dark and people get very scared and very nervous so I think this is actually a broad thing that's happening across uh across our world where we hear more bad things day to day so we think the world's going to hell but the world's actually getting better and the reason part of the reason is at least because we're forced we're facing those issues

• 18:12Speaker 02

  um I think that applies in a very kind of uh microcosm way in in investing as well and in innovation more specifically um because you know you you get this massive push of people over the last fifteen or twenty years into entrepreneurship you get a huge influx of people in tech in the in the US you get huge creation of innovation economies and fifty to a hundred you know cities all across the world you get this massive push towards entrepreneurship and so you get a lot more people tackling problems but the problem is you know there's a lot of you know signal and noise rises equally and there's always been you know ninety-five percent noise and five percent signal you know it's uh ten years ago fifteen

• 18:54Speaker 02

  companies a year mattered uh you know the famous kind of VC quote of there's only fifteen important companies founded every year and the vast majority of the rest of them were failures or not important or not interesting and so in innovation I think you're seeing the same thing where you know yeah you may get five more world-changing companies which is in fact the most amazing thing we could possibly ask for you know it's a huge win um but we got a thousand X the number of stupid photo-sharing apps or you know stupid kind of stupid gimmicky kind of toy-looking things and that just everybody sees the gimmicky stuff and the press focuses on that and everybody looks at it and goes oh yo yo is so stupid right and but but they don't see the fact that hey somebody's inventing um you know

• 19:38Speaker 02

  a better form of nuclear reactor right they just they don't they don't see that because they're blinded by the increase in in uh in noise so I think there's the same point of you know we've got this massive trend that is pushing towards increased innovation but we don't believe it because the the stories we hear on a day-to-day basis are about the person who undeservingly got you know ten million dollars for their stupid idea or who you know launched this thing that is you know so dumb or so addictive or so painful or whatever else

• 20:06Harry Stebbings?

  and I'd love to dive into a quickfire round now So your favorite book and why?

• 20:12Speaker 02

  Uh, my favorite book is probably in terms of like, uh, frequent reference is probably Innovator's Dilemma. Yeah, I think it's just a, I think it's just a fantastic book. In terms of kind of my more personal life, uh, East of Eden is probably one of the most impactful books I wrote when I was like eighteen or nineteen and just like a big, uh, uh, you know, the, uh, the concept of having choice over, you know, how your life unfolds. I think there's a big theme and important theme and Steinbeck's a great writer. Uh, yeah, I'm, I'm looking at my book, I'm looking at my bookcase right now and like, you know, Foundation by Asimov jumps out and Excalibur by Strauss jumps out, much of those.

• 20:46Harry Stebbings?

  And then which investor do you most respect or admire?

• 20:49Speaker 02

  That's a great question. Um, I, I, I have a really hard time answering it. Um, so I'll, I'll give you a rapid fire num- name.

• 20:57Harry Stebbings?

  Okay, go, go for it.

• 20:59Speaker 02

  I like, uh, I really like Naval. I think Naval's done an absolutely impeccable job of investing in, you know, tons of companies at once and, uh, and, you know, you know, I think built an incredible portfolio and believes in founders early and, you know, I think Naval's just an incredible investor. Um, uh, I have a lot of respect for Sam Altman, both as an individual investor and in the direction that he's taken by Combinator. Um, I think that's been, you know, not, not without its bumps and, and detractors and haters, but, um, I think he's, you know, on basis done a lot of really good things and made a lot of really good moves. Um, and as a personal investor, obviously he was, uh, uh, he was very successful as well. Gus High at Trinity, um, is a guy that I've developed a lot of respect for over the last, call it five years.

• 21:43Speaker 02

  Um, and is maybe not a, uh, maybe not as like well-known a name as the other guys and maybe almost the, the opposite in terms of pace from Naval, you know, he does, you know, you know, much more like a traditional VC, maybe, maybe a deal a year or two deals a year or something like that. Yeah, has a ton of conviction and, and has spotted some really great companies. So those, those guys are all, all jumped to mind. Um, Uh, there are, there are more, but I could, I could sit here and ramble for fifty or fifty or a hundred minutes.

• 22:10Harry Stebbings?

  And then your favorite blog or newsletter?

• 22:13Speaker 02

  I really like Madam Mark Daily.

• 22:15Harry Stebbings?

  Yeah, it's my favorite. It's awesome.

• 22:17Speaker 02

  I, I really like the information. I think the information is slept on a lot more than it should be. Um. They do a killer job of reporting. It's absolutely fantastic.

• 22:27Harry Stebbings?

  And then your most used app on your phone?

• 22:30Speaker 02

  So there's a, a ton of them, um, but probably the one that I'm most infatuated with right now, which is much more interesting, I guess. Um, is Omni, um, which is, you know, basically store your stuff. So you hit a button and they come pick up your things and then. Uh, when you want your things back, you, you know, hit a button and they come back. Um, and I think that, but I think that the concept of that company is deceptively simple. The execution is actually very hard and the team there is doing a fantastic job with it. And the vision with where they want to go, I think is, is brilliant. Um, in terms of most used, Lyft all the time, Casts all the time, Slack all the time. Maybe kind of funny one is Delectable. Um, I'm not a wine drinker by any stretch of the imagination, but.

• 23:12Speaker 02

  I try to learn about things I don't know about. So Delectable is kind of a fun one to learn about wine.

• 23:16Harry Stebbings?

  And then finally, your most recent investment and why you said yes?

• 23:20Speaker 02

  One recent investment that I made, uh, that I'm, that I'm very excited about, um, is a company called L. Um, this is L dot com. Um, and they make like sexual health products. They make right now condoms. That are, um, designed with women in mind, that is sort of.

• 23:36Harry Stebbings?

  Was it Y C? It was Y C, wasn't it?

• 23:38Speaker 02

  Yeah, it was Y, it was Y C, uh, uh, a couple batches ago. The company is run by an absolutely incredible founder, one of those people, um, who I met and just said. Holy smokes, like you're going to figure everything out. She's just incredible. Um. So I think the, you know, a lot of it was like, I believe in this person. Um, again, you know. Even if you don't know it all today, you're going to figure it out soon. Probably at a, at a, at a higher rate of learning than the vast majority of your peers. So I just got really like, you know, I think the founder is incredible. I think the mission of the company is great. I think you're actually seeing a lot of people, you know, I think you're seeing a lot of underserved markets finally getting served. Walker and Co, you know, creating, you know, razor blades and shaving equipment and now clippers and these types of things.

• 24:23Harry Stebbings?

  Yeah, Loner as well is doing sustainable tampons. We had Sumit Shah on the show from Brown Foundry and that was another industry that's relatively untouched by tech. And so that was fascinating.

• 24:36Speaker 02

  Yeah, I think by the way, from an industry perspective, I think every industry over the next 20 years, tech is coming. All your base belong to us and all those things. In this particular area, it was like, it was an underserved market, like not even tech companies weren't doing it, but like big CPG companies weren't doing it. You know, these massive companies that, that just frankly weren't like building products with women in minds and weren't building products with people of color in mind. And so it's just this kind of crazy to me that that, that that hole exists, but you know, their mistake is my opportunity. And so I'm, you know, I was like really happy to invest in the company. I think the team's great. I think the product's great. I think the, the mission is great.

• 25:16Speaker 02

  You know, very early and not really a tech enabled product, but you know, an area where, you know, I just think it was something that had to exist.

• 25:24Harry Stebbings?

  Well, Tyler, thank you so much for coming on the show today. It's been an absolute pleasure chatting with you. I'm so grateful for you giving up the time.

• 25:31Speaker 02

  Yeah, I've been good.

• 25:32Harry Stebbings?

  And again, I would like to give a huge hand to Tyler for giving up his time today to appear on the show and a fantastic follow up to our episode with Ariel on Monday. Also, if you're loving the 20 minute VC, then head on over to the 20minutevc.com and sign up for the newsletter. So you never have to miss an episode or update from us. Thanks so much as always for your incredible support and we look so forward to bringing you an incredible episode with Niccolo de Massey, who I believe is one of the best public market CEOs of the last decade. It's a must and that show comes out on Founder's Friday. So stay tuned.