I Love Men (and That's the Problem) with Liz Plank

We are thrilled to have journalist/author/podcaster Liz Plank join us to discuss the state of men, dating, and the country. We talk about masculinity and feminism, and the illuminating research about what type of society benefits both genders the most. We dive into dating and mating – which careers are the best and worst to date (ie. actors vs. athletes), what to do when you know your "type" is wrong for you, why women should be pickier when selecting a partner, and the decision of having kids. Lastly, we talk about the state of the world and Liz's impactful advice for coping in these unprecedented times, and end answering some boy problems from our listeners ranging from "the sex is good but he's boring" to "I don't want to change my last name." Before Liz joins us, we dive into an email from a listener who doesn't know if she should confront her best friend about her relationship, and we debate the sentiment "Drunk words are sober thoughts." Enjoy! Follow Liz on Instagram @feministabulous and listen to her podcast Boy Problems. Follow us on Instagram @girlsgottaeatpodcast, Ashley @ashhess, and Rayna @rayna.greenberg. Visit girlsgottaeat.com for more. Thank you to our partners this week: Vivrelle: Skip the waitlist and get your first month for free at vivrelle.com with code GGE. Article: Head to https://article.com for a beautiful new sofa, dining table or bed. Liquid IV: Get 20% off your first order at https://liquidiv.com with code GGE. Revolve: Get 15% off your first order at https://revolve.com/GGE with code GGE. Hers: Get the support that actually reflects your needs. Start your free intake at http://forhers.com. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Rayna Greenberg?

  That's what's so amazing, right? Because then you get called a man hater, you know, and you're like, the fact that I still willfully go on dates with men with strangers that we meet online.

• 0:10Ashley Hesseltine?

  We date our number one predator.

• 0:11Rayna Greenberg?

  We date our number one predator.

• 0:27Ashley Hesseltine?

  This podcast is a Dear Media production.

• 0:30Rayna Greenberg?

  Hi, guys.

• 0:31Ashley Hesseltine?

  Hi, guys.

• 0:31Rayna Greenberg?

  Welcome to another episode of Girls Gotta Eat.

• 0:33Ashley Hesseltine?

  Welcome back.

• 0:34Rayna Greenberg?

  If you're tuning in, Ashley is on a plane to Singapore.

• 0:38Ashley Hesseltine?

  Oh, my gosh.

• 0:38Rayna Greenberg?

  I am on a plane back home to New York.

• 0:41Ashley Hesseltine?

  Well, tonight, we leave at night at like 10:00 and then we get there on Wednesday morning.

• 0:47Rayna Greenberg?

  Isn't that so crazy?

• 0:48Ashley Hesseltine?

  Yeah, the time zone's so crazy. But then the good thing is when, basically when you leave Singapore and come back to LA, you get home at the same time you left. So like a Sunday evening, you'll get home on a Sunday evening, like almost to the hour.

• 1:00Rayna Greenberg?

  Nothing makes me happier than flying back to the West Coast, get all that time back.

• 1:04Ashley Hesseltine?

  So anyway, follow along, you guys.

• 1:06Rayna Greenberg?

  I'm so excited for that.

• 1:07Ashley Hesseltine?

  Ash Hess on Instagram. Follow along on my honeymoon brand trip.

• 1:12Rayna Greenberg?

  Follow along on my trip back to New York where I always am. Maybe I'll leave the house, maybe I won't. Who's to say?

• 1:17Ashley Hesseltine?

  House, yeah. So I just came from CBS and I'm pulling this out like it's a fucking magician, Raina. Why are they still doing this?

• 1:28Rayna Greenberg?

  Holy shit.

• 1:28Ashley Hesseltine?

  What is CBS doing? Like, I thought that we had dragged them enough.

• 1:33Rayna Greenberg?

  Effectively made fun of it.

• 1:34Ashley Hesseltine?

  And talked about the environmental impacts of unnecessary paper like this, and they are still out here.

• 1:41Rayna Greenberg?

  Will the coupon people please speak out? I just want to know, like, who is like, thank God for these coupons. We probably couldn't get them in an app or on the internet.

• 1:50Ashley Hesseltine?

  But these are good coupons.

• 1:52Rayna Greenberg?

  What are they? What are they?

• 1:53Ashley Hesseltine?

  Also, I say coupons, Raina says coupons.

• 1:55Rayna Greenberg?

  Coupon sounds crazy.

• 1:57Ashley Hesseltine?

  Okay, whatever. $4 off your next purchase, just

• 2:00Rayna Greenberg?

  Just really nilly?

• 2:00Ashley Hesseltine?

  No strings attached.

• 2:01Rayna Greenberg?

  Wow.

• 2:02Ashley Hesseltine?

  $2 off any makeup or nail product, any.

• 2:05Rayna Greenberg?

  Should I be saying these three?

• 2:07Ashley Hesseltine?

  $3 off any CVS Health First aid products or treatments, $2 off any cold, cough, flu, or immunity products. They know what's up. It's cold season.

• 2:17Ashley Hesseltine?

  $4 off any CVS pain relief products, $3 off any CVS allergy remedies. But the $4 off, I mean, I've been good a whole lot to this.

• 2:25Rayna Greenberg?

  Like for nothing.

• 2:26Ashley Hesseltine?

  Does it apply to your prescriptions? Because I just picked up my prescription, it was $5.

• 2:30Rayna Greenberg?

  Restrictions might apply.

• 2:31Ashley Hesseltine?

  I'll check, um, CVS.com slash coupon policy for more details. But anyway, I just can't believe this.

• 2:40Rayna Greenberg?

  I can't. No, there are just some things in the world I thought we had like effectively made fun of enough that we've stopped it.

• 2:45Ashley Hesseltine?

  That they would have stopped.

• 2:46Rayna Greenberg?

  I can't believe it.

• 2:47Ashley Hesseltine?

  Well, I was thinking, I used to do this joke, it was about this grower, like a guy's dick. And I said, it went from a fortune cookie fortune to a CVS receipt. And it was one of my favorite metaphors I've ever done. And for days, I couldn't recall fortune cookie fortune. I was like, what was the first part of it? And even just now, we just did bitch bible and I referenced it and I said gum wrapper. And I was like, it's not, that's not right.

• 3:09Rayna Greenberg?

  You said gum wrapper the other day too, and I know gum wrapper is actually part of a different bit that you do. And I couldn't figure it out. I was trying to sneeze.

• 3:15Ashley Hesseltine?

  It just wasn't right. So fortune cookie fortune, I'm so glad I remembered it. And I remembered it in line at the CVS. And I was like, if they give me a giant receipt, right? I picked up a $5 prescription and this is what they gave me. Like, you'd think I would have done a haul for them to give me this. Like, the receipt should match the purchase.

• 3:30Rayna Greenberg?

  They're so generous though. They're like, here's 19 different coupons.

• 3:33Ashley Hesseltine?

  Like, I spent $5, they were like, take $20 in coupons.

• 3:36Rayna Greenberg?

  Listen, now I feel like I should start saving those. What if you just opened up my center console one day and it just exploded with CVS coupons?

• 3:42Ashley Hesseltine?

  Did you go grocery shopping with your mom? Would she like use coupons?

• 3:45Rayna Greenberg?

  I think so. I do think my mom used coupons growing up.

• 3:48Ashley Hesseltine?

  Most moms in our, like.

• 3:49Rayna Greenberg?

  They'd clip them, I'd do the clip them from like the newspaper.

• 3:52Ashley Hesseltine?

  Yeah.

• 3:53Rayna Greenberg?

  I'm pretty sure my mom did. Now, I mean, is that like when you go to the grocery store now? And they're like, do you have your Ralph's card or whatever? And that runs a search of every single one? Is that what that does?

• 4:01Ashley Hesseltine?

  I have no idea how it works these days. I do have a Pavilions app.

• 4:05Rayna Greenberg?

  I only shop at Air One and I promise you, there is no coupons for Air One.

• 4:08Ashley Hesseltine?

  But you get money back.

• 4:09Rayna Greenberg?

  I pay them extra for that.

• 4:11Ashley Hesseltine?

  You get money back.

• 4:12Rayna Greenberg?

  I pay them extra for that privilege. I give them like $150 for a membership and they give me back $50 a year.

• 4:19Ashley Hesseltine?

  Membership is crazy. Okay. Well, anyway, let's talk about our partners that aren't CBS.

• 4:23Rayna Greenberg?

  Okay. Thanks to the opposite of that. Thanks to Viva Ral. Skip the waitlist and get your first month for free at viva ral.com with code GGE. An article, head article.com for a beautiful new sofa, dining table, or bed.

• 4:35Ashley Hesseltine?

  And thank you to Liquid IV. Get 20% off your first order at liquidiv.com with code GGE. And Revolve, get 15% off your first order at revolve.com/GGE with code GGE. And hers. Get the support that actually reflects your needs. Start your free intake at forhers.com. And we mentioned this last week, but just wanted to remind you guys, we are doing one show this year, as far as we know. No, we'll talk about the Hollies. But as far as all we have on the schedule, one show that Rain and I are both doing, Girls Gotta Eat show is going to be May 7th here in LA for the Netflix is a Joke Festival. And we are so excited to be a part of it. And we can't wait to see you guys. The Palace Theater, it's gorgeous. The show is going to be so much fun. Special guests. Everyone's in town for

• 5:19Ashley Hesseltine?

  this festival. And so you guys can grab tickets. It's linked on our website. That's probably the easiest way, girlsgottaeat.com. But if you want to go to netflixisajokefest.com, you type in Girls Gotta Eat, it comes right up. Checked it today. So grab those tickets while they're still available and we'll see you there.

• 5:35Rayna Greenberg?

  Yeah, make a trip out of it. It is a really fun time to be in LA. May is beautiful in LA. There's tons of acts that week as well. So grab tickets to ours and then just book out your whole weekend. It'll be really fun. Yeah, we'll see you guys then. Yeah. So we did, we did an episode last week, we were asking people about like Friends dilemmas. And we got this one that was just sort of outside of the box of anything else and had a few different themes. So yeah, we thought we would like dive into this email and talk about it.

• 5:58Ashley Hesseltine?

  You looked at me like, and you're obviously gonna read it.

• 6:01Rayna Greenberg?

  I was like, I actually even started reading it.

• 6:06Ashley Hesseltine?

  Okay, guys, let me dive in. Hi, ladies. I'm an avid listener of the pod and have listened every week since 2018.

• 6:13Ashley Hesseltine?

  That's so like really makes me, yeah, it's such an honor. A friendship dilemma I'm currently experiencing is one of my friends has been dating her man for almost three years. After one year of them dating, we got drunk in a hot tub together, just us two. You've got, it feels like this is going somewhere different. And she told me that she love me though. She told me she didn't think he was her person. But when she's sober, she says things like, that's my boo, love that man and my soulmate. Fast forward to now, she talks about how she wants to get engaged to him this year. But yet again, a month ago, we got drunk and she was telling me that she's jealous that I'm single. She misses her ho phase. She has a crush on her coworker. Her boyfriend has never made her come. She thinks her boyfriend isn't attracted to her and she wishes she could experience things with women.

• 6:56Ashley Hesseltine?

  But then she's sober at brunch two weeks ago, telling the girls she thinks she'll get engaged in the coming months. I have this moral dilemma in my brain, thinking, should I have a sit down with her and be like, you say one thing when you're sober, but when you're drunk, you say the opposite. Or should I leave it be because it's not my relationship and I don't know what truly happens behind closed doors? Part of me wonders if she thinks she's in too deep and doesn't want to start over. It's hard knowing she's telling two different stories and I think I'm the only one who knows both sides. I just don't want her to end up in a marriage that isn't fulfilling. Appreciate the advice.

• 7:22Rayna Greenberg?

  So we're going to give advice to the friend who wrote in, the friend with the guy. And the email subject line was our drunk thoughts, sober feelings. So we'll also answer that question.

• 7:31Ashley Hesseltine?

  Yeah.

• 7:32Rayna Greenberg?

  I think to the friend who wrote in, I think, of course you care about your friend's happiness. That's where this comes from is you're just like, I know she's gonna maybe make a mistake and go down this road and I love her and I don't want to see her in pain. And if I have some advice I can offer, then that's great. And I think that you're entitled to have that conversation one time in a non accusatory way. You're not the relationship police, you know, you don't have to keep holding your feet to the fire. I think it's really fair to say kindly, like, I love you. You said a couple of things that are concerning. I want you to know, you can talk to me about this stuff if you're having doubts. Everybody has doubts, you know, and feel free to talk to me about it. And I would have that conversation once and I wouldn't, I wouldn't press it again.

• 8:06Ashley Hesseltine?

  Yeah, I like this email. It doesn't make me feel bad on the inside because it's not that this man is treating her poorly. Well, she says she doesn't think he's attracted to her, but. You know, a lot of times we have situations where a friend is telling another friend how shitty this guy is and then you're judging him and it's really hard because you want to say like, leave him, he sucks. And then they stay with them and you feel like it has caused tension or a rift in your friendship. And that's not really what we're doing here. The friend is telling her stuff how she feels with the exclusion of she thinks her boyfriend isn't attracted to her. But this is so easy to me to speak to her completely out of love and be like, you know,

• 8:51Ashley Hesseltine?

  I support your relationship. I always have. It doesn't sound bad. I don't think there's any really red flags. It doesn't sound like this is some shitty guy. So I think it's so easy to be like, you know, I support your relationship. I want you to get engaged this year. I want whatever you want for you, but you are telling me these things and I'm so glad that you feel comfortable confiding in me, but I just want you to know that if you are feeling any type of way that he isn't the one, you don't have to marry him. If you think you want to explore with women, you can explore with women and your partner should make you come. You should want that. And I just want you to know, I'm here for you. And sometimes people need that permission and they need someone to say, you don't have to marry this person. You don't have to stay with this person. The things that she said all fall into like different buckets for me. Like being drunk and saying you miss your hoe

• 9:36Ashley Hesseltine?

  phase is not that much of a tell for me.

• 9:40Rayna Greenberg?

  Yes.

• 9:40Ashley Hesseltine?

  And you're jealous you're single. Sometimes just you'd be saying stuff. Sometimes it sounds good in the moment. Oh my God, I'm so jealous you're single. I miss my hoe phase. Like I get that. You know, I forget I'm married all the time.

• 9:48Rayna Greenberg?

  I think that that exists for everybody, right? Everybody that's thinking I'm going to end up with somebody for a long time is a little jealous of the silly stories and also happy they don't have to deal with them anymore. You know, both things can exist.

• 9:59Ashley Hesseltine?

  Yeah, but crush on the coworker. Again, you could be a horny drunk and you could also kind of like women when, when you're drunk. I mean, there are people who are pretty straight and Get attracted to women, maybe kiss here and there, do some things when they're drunk. Alcohol really loosens you up. And I just, I don't think that necessarily means that you're bi or you're gay. It definitely could. But the things that are really coming up for me are, he's never made her come, and she thinks her boyfriend isn't attracted to her. That's not stuff you say drunk. That's true. Where would it come from otherwise? Like, you're not saying that to be spicy or funny. Like, saying you don't think your partner has attracted you when you're drinking is true, I think. Why else would you say it? There's no other reason?

• 10:43Ashley Hesseltine?

  And you wouldn't tell your friend he's never made you come? Like, that's a real confession.

• 10:49Rayna Greenberg?

  Yeah. And I think that an engagement ring is not going to put a Band-Aid over bad sex or feeling undesired. And for me, for most people, I think that engagement ring actually amplifies those feelings of like, is this it forever? Am I going to commit to somebody that I don't feel like desires me, that is not great in bed, I'm finding myself with this wandering eye, looking at other people? Like, and I think sometimes you do need another person to say to you, like, you don't have to do this. And also, to your point earlier, like, I try to say to all my girlfriends when they're venting me about their partners, you know I love him, and, you know, you know, I'm on your side, and I'm not going to hate him if you tell me this stuff. Because I feel like our girlfriends share a lot of stuff with us. And I don't want my friends to ever feel like I'm going to judge their partner, and they can't talk to me about it. I mean, some of my friends' partners I judge. But for the most part, I'm friends with most of my friends' partners, and I'm not going to

• 11:34Rayna Greenberg?

  hate them because they say this stuff to me.

• 11:36Ashley Hesseltine?

  Yeah, again, if it was really bad stuff about this guy, that's one thing. But if the friend that wrote in actually does like him, I assume she knows him. They've been together three years, and they're close friends. And you can say, like, you know, I'll stand up there with you at your wedding, I'll support you, he's great. But, you know, keep these things in mind. And I'm like a listening ear. And I don't know how old they are. But you can find someone else that will give you these things, and you can explore the feelings that you're having. And say it once, like Rena said, and you don't have to keep pushing her on it. And she could say like, oh, you know, I just get drunk and say stuff and she could marry him.

• 12:20Ashley Hesseltine?

  And she'll have to find out for herself. If there was like abuse and, you know, manipulation, even gaslighting type of stuff, we're talking about a different story. But if it's just these things, like she has to make her own mistakes.

• 12:34Rayna Greenberg?

  Yeah, I think she said earlier on that like a year in, that girl said, I don't know if that's my person. And I think we all have those thoughts, maybe not you, but I think that the average person is constantly evaluating. Is this my person? Is there more? Is this all there is? This is the best? Like, I think most people ask themselves those questions a year in. If you're engaged and you're asking that, I don't know if that's the same thing, but one year in, lots of people ask that question.

• 12:58Ashley Hesseltine?

  Yeah, we had, we knew friends like that where one friend had confessed to another friend. Early on, I don't think this is my guy. And now they are engaged and I think she feels embarrassed, but you don't have to be embarrassed. Like, we're all human and I just think the way you approach the conversation with your friend, which we do really think is a conversation you should have. You really have to make sure it does not come across blaming, accusatory. The language of you say one thing when you're sober, when you're drunk, you say the opposite. She said that to us. I don't think that's the language you should use with your friend. That sounds a little accusatory. Like, really gentle, really don't embarrass her. You do want to be her confidant. And she might be embarrassed. I mean, I don't know how much she's drinking. I don't know if these are blackout confessions.

• 13:39Ashley Hesseltine?

  Or it's just she's a little loosey goosey, but I don't even know if you need to bring up the hot tub night, like that was years ago. And don't put her on blast. And like, you said, this wasn't your person. Like, it's kind of the other stuff of like, I want you to be happy in your relationship. I want you to love your partner. I want you to be coming. All the things. I want you to be satisfied. We all deserve that and you do too.

• 14:02Rayna Greenberg?

  I agree. And the girl that's getting engaged, I mean, I think it's normal to mourn your singledom a little bit. And there's sacrifices to commitment. Yes, you, I guess, depending on the dynamic of your relationship, you can't go be a little slut all the time and be hooking up with coworkers. And you will negotiate what the parameters are with your partner if you want to explore sexuality outside the relationship, obviously. But yeah, there's, there's trade offs. And so you should feel like, okay, I do have to mourn my singledom, but. Should you have to mourn being with somebody like who doesn't desire you? Who doesn't make you feel sexually satisfied? Only you can decide if that's enough for you.

• 14:36Ashley Hesseltine?

  Yeah, all the things that she's saying when she's drunk. If there is truth to them, do not marry this man. Don't do that to him and don't do that to yourself. The only way I can see is if she's like, I just like want attention when I'm drunk. I just be saying stuff like I, I guess there's a world in which you're like, I don't know. It's just like sounded good in the moment. I guess I don't really think I think that all those statements, there's like six separate things that all together are like, that's not your person.

• 15:04Rayna Greenberg?

  I'm with you. Okay. And then to answer the question, are drunk thoughts sober feelings? I don't think always. I think alcohol lowers inhibition and amplifies emotion. So like I think of decisions that I thought were like really fun or funny when I was drinking. And I wake up in the morning and I'm like, I don't know who was going to make those decisions. And I'm always proud that I didn't because I need way more attention when I'm drinking than I do as a sober person. I'm overly confident. Well, I'm overly confident always, but I, things seem silly and I'm not evaluating consequences from like a normal ground level when I'm drinking. So I don't know, there might be some sober ideas that I just would never act on because that's not really who I am at my core.

• 15:45Ashley Hesseltine?

  I have never loved this phrase as someone who did stuff she really regretted drinking. But like, think of all the things you've done. I mean, for me, you know, like breaking the law or, you know, sleeping with somebody. You would never sleep with, I mean, like waking up in the morning and seeing the fucking ugliest dude you've ever seen, run out of his house in his Halloween costume, speaking from experience. So you definitely, whatever it does, I mean, some people turn to a different person. I mean, people are scared of people when they start drinking who are fine sober, you know, like it really does change who you are. And a lot of times that means you shouldn't drink. So I don't always think that. And I think that it can. I think that you have something on your mind and alcohol loosens up, like you said, your inhibitions and.

• 16:27Ashley Hesseltine?

  You do be saying stuff like 100%, but it really is case by case because I think more often than not, we hear of guys drinking and love bombing and saying stuff that just feels good in the moment that they really don't feel. And you were recently with some people at a comedy show, some guys who were saying, I love to love bomb. Like I get off on it. Like not all guys, of course, but some dudes get drunk and love bomb for sport. And that is not their feelings.

• 16:58Rayna Greenberg?

  Yeah. I mean, even Harry Jowsey, when he was on the show was talking about that. It just feels nice. Say a bunch of nice things to another person and make them feel really good. And you wake up and you're like, oh, these actions have consequences. I don't want to deal with that.

• 17:11Ashley Hesseltine?

  I actually think the phrase in general, drunk thoughts or sober feelings, I think that's bad advice because I think that's what it does is someone confesses their feelings for you when they're drinking and you've been told that bad advice and you're like, he must love me. And I just don't really subscribe to it. I think there are situations for sure where if we're talking about a wholesome situation, your two friends have a thing for each other, you get drunk and it comes out. It's very cute. And those, that's what I'm talking about. Things that you're holding back on and you start drinking and they come out. But the other stuff is just purely the alcohol talking.

• 17:49Rayna Greenberg?

  Yeah. My drunk thoughts are my sober feelings. I haven't edited from like a clear point of view of consequences and like self-respect and different things that I would evaluate and put into a situation. Yeah, lots of things sound fun. Do you know how many times when I'm drinking, I want to choose violence and fire off something mean or fire off something sexy or be silly or forgive somebody. That's not who I am.

• 18:10Ashley Hesseltine?

  But I've been in situations with guys where I was probably the love bomber, where I was hammered and saying stuff in an intimate situation and waking up and be like, I never want to see you again.

• 18:21Rayna Greenberg?

  100%.

• 18:22Ashley Hesseltine?

  So it really is case by case and it just depends on what we're talking about here.

• 18:26Rayna Greenberg?

  That's so funny. Like when you're drunk, you're like, I will go home with this person. And those are not my sober feelings.

• 18:31Ashley Hesseltine?

  Oh, my God.

• 18:32Rayna Greenberg?

  My sober feelings are, please don't ever come near me again.

• 18:35Ashley Hesseltine?

  I'm glad we discussed it. I do think it's like one of those age old sayings that got taken too far.

• 18:43Rayna Greenberg?

  Yeah. Drunk me isn't like fact checking. I'm just be saying stuff, you know, I just, because it feels good or silly in the moment. I do a lot of stuff. I have stuck.

• 18:54Ashley Hesseltine?

  All right, just to stop dead cold. Like, I don't even know. I usually know what you're about to say. I couldn't dare to guess.

• 19:00Rayna Greenberg?

  I've done all kinds of things when I was drinking that I do not like when I'm sober.

• 19:04Ashley Hesseltine?

  Yeah.

• 19:05Rayna Greenberg?

  Like butt plugs.

• 19:08Ashley Hesseltine?

  Use butt plugs.

• 19:09Rayna Greenberg?

  Use butt plugs. Come see me on tour.

• 19:10Ashley Hesseltine?

  Okay, well, I hope we have offered some clarity and advice to this woman that wrote in.

• 19:17Rayna Greenberg?

  I do want about it. It's tough to hear your friend constantly talk about not being sure about their partner. And did she say she's single?

• 19:24Ashley Hesseltine?

  Yeah, she's jealous I'm single.

• 19:25Rayna Greenberg?

  Yeah. I know that it's like, hard to be like, I would love to find a partner. And you're getting drunk and you're telling me all these things. You won't do anything about it to fix it. And that is hard, especially when you love somebody, you don't want to see them in pain. And if they're sober and they're like, haha, I'm so great. Everything's great. We're great.

• 19:39Ashley Hesseltine?

  There is also a world in which she is gay and all this points to that.

• 19:45Rayna Greenberg?

  Sure.

• 19:45Ashley Hesseltine?

  Because it would make sense.

• 19:46Rayna Greenberg?

  Sure.

• 19:47Ashley Hesseltine?

  You know, and like, oh, is it a coworker or a woman? All these things add up. And at the end, I'm also interested in exploring things with women. Maybe that's why your partner can't make you come. Maybe that's not his issue. That's because you are not attracted to men. Like, I don't know. I mean, I hear these things and I am just a record screech, get out of this relationship.

• 20:06Rayna Greenberg?

  I know. I was trying to see how old they were.

• 20:09Ashley Hesseltine?

  I know, didn't say. Like, are we in our twenties and you're just feeling like you're supposed to get married? Like, I need to know so much more information about the girl with the boyfriend. Like, her parents, her age, her, where she grew up, is this societal and family pressure?

• 20:26Rayna Greenberg?

  I just thought when I was getting engaged, I thought like, all these feelings of doubt, all these voices in my head will be quieted by the ring. Knowing that I have like, commitment and a future with this person. And this will be the father of my children. And I will have stability and I will build a life with this person. I just thought like, these other feelings will go away because I get to have these other things. And every one of those feelings became 100 times louder, thinking about being with this person for the rest of my life.

• 20:51Ashley Hesseltine?

  But do you see a world in which, when you were with your fiance, which I do believe, even though he ended it, on some level, you knew it wasn't right? Like, could you have been this girl? Like, could you, and you were, and some of your friends, could you picture yourself in the hot tub, saying this stuff, drunk? I can, a little bit.

• 21:07Rayna Greenberg?

  I did stuff behind his back that does not align with a person that is super sure.

• 21:12Ashley Hesseltine?

  Yeah, like, I do think, like, I could put you in this situation. I could put you in this, like, You're drunk and you're like, I kind of have a crush on so and so from work and like, I don't know, I find that girl attractive. Like, I could see this being you. And like, would you have wanted someone to say these things? Would it have mattered, though?

• 21:27Rayna Greenberg?

  So when we broke up, I remember saying to like my mom and my best friends, like Melanie, like, why didn't anybody ever say to me, you don't have to do this? But first of all, I don't think I really voiced this to anybody because I didn't want to embarrass him.

• 21:40Ashley Hesseltine?

  Yeah.

• 21:40Rayna Greenberg?

  Because he was a good person. And everybody in my life was like, well, he wasn't abusing you emotionally or physically. He wasn't cheating on you. He wasn't lying to you. He wasn't a bad partner by most measures of being a bad partner.

• 21:51Ashley Hesseltine?

  Yeah.

• 21:51Rayna Greenberg?

  And so what were people gonna do?

• 21:53Ashley Hesseltine?

  Yeah.

• 21:53Rayna Greenberg?

  Like, I was like, why didn't anybody say this to me? Like, what, people were just gonna insult me? You know, so?

• 21:57Ashley Hesseltine?

  Yeah.

• 21:57Rayna Greenberg?

  Nobody told me, but I was also too scared to like vocalize this in a real way that like, I remember like one time we had this horrible fight and I was hysterical on the phone with my mom and I was like, he's so stupid. And I just, I can't trust him to take care of anything. He forgot shoes. We went on a trip, he forgot shoes.

• 22:14Rayna Greenberg?

  We booked a hotel. I let him book the hotel. He had booked it somewhere really far on the outskirts of where I thought we were gonna be at. Just was like so upset. And I was just like, is this it? This person who can't do anything or handle anything?

• 22:25Ashley Hesseltine?

  What'd your mom say to that? Do you remember? Because it seems to me like she would have been like, don't, you don't have to do this. Because your mom always said, you don't need a man.

• 22:31Rayna Greenberg?

  We were not engaged yet.

• 22:33Ashley Hesseltine?

  Okay.

• 22:33Rayna Greenberg?

  It was like a month before.

• 22:35Ashley Hesseltine?

  And maybe she was like, he's in his twenties. What do you expect?

• 22:37Rayna Greenberg?

  I think she was just like, honey, I think you're being a little hard on him. I think this is like a little unfair. She's never applied that kindness to me, but.

• 22:44Ashley Hesseltine?

  All right. Well, anyway, we gotta get going. So, yeah, again, thank you guys, as always, for sharing your lives and your stories with us. And we are really excited about our episode today. Liz Plank is someone I've followed. I just really look up to her and think she's incredible. And so we're so excited to get into that with her. But we are just gonna talk about our partners. So this show is sponsored by Liquid IV. I got my new stash last night. We are such fans of Liquid IV and how it hydrates you better than water alone for longer. So you may be dehydrated if you have fatigue, brain fog, nausea, headaches, irritability, yellow pee, of course, and feeling thirsty. What, I'm dehydrated. I

• 23:26Ashley Hesseltine?

  For one time, the first time I was like, felt so awful, and it wasn't a hangover, in my twenties, and I realized I was dehydrated and like, it ruined a weekend for me. Like, I think I went to some girls' trip and I just hadn't been drinking enough water. And I remember feeling that like headache, so tired, the fatigue. You could almost feel just like sad, like you're like, what is wrong with me? Something's really off. And so it can be dehydration. Those are the seven possible signs. So Liquid IV is a great place to turn. It's scientifically formulated to help replenish electrolytes and fluids lost from sweat or exercise, three times the electrolytes of leading sports drink, eight vitamins and nutrients, all in a single stick. And we have always loved it. We've been drinking it for years. We put it in all of our gift bags when we do stuff for Raina's 40th birthday,

• 24:09Ashley Hesseltine?

  my wedding, we're always giving out Liquid IV. It was in my wedding gift bags. And my favorite flavors are the lemon lime, the guava, and the grapefruit pina colada. They sent some of that last night. And then there are the sugar-free flavors as well. So Liquid IV has led a significant breakthrough in sugar-free hydration science. So there's zero sugar, three times electrolytes again, and eight essential vitamins for sugar-free hydration. We got the sugar-free raspberry lemonade that came in our shipment last night, and I'm really excited to have that as well. So we just love this. It helps you recharge your social battery if you're out a lot, keeps you hydrated and staying away from those seven signs of dehydration. So you can show up, start to finish with hydration from Liquid IV, hydration multiplier, sugar-free, tear, pour, live more.

• 24:53Ashley Hesseltine?

  Go to liquidiv.com and get 20% off your first order with code GGE at checkout. That's 20% off your first order with code GGE at liquidiv.com.

• 25:03Rayna Greenberg?

  Okay, and you guys know I am obsessed with home decor, decorating my house, telling other people how to decorate their houses. Article makes it effortless to create a stylish, long-lasting home at an unbeatable price. So it's one of the questions I get the most. Where is the stuff in your home from and how did you curate it? I love Article. They have a huge range of styles. I really sort of lean more to coastal or sort of like a boho look, but they have mid-century modern, Scandi inspired pieces that look really beautiful together. It helps your space look really cohesive and stylish. And if you're not really sure how to Curate a room, whether it's your bedroom, your dining room, your living room. Their website is phenomenal. You can see how other people have put together rooms. Also, their social media is great and the quality is fantastic.

• 25:45Rayna Greenberg?

  They curate these collections focusing on high quality and meaningful pieces. And then when you get it, the packaging is so meticulous, like the weight and feel of the product is great. It just feels really high quality and then the shipping and assembly so, so easy. Every time they've delivered anything to me, the shipping has been like easy to follow along. You pick the dates you want. So I am probably moving and I'm thinking about what I want to do with my new apartment in New York. And I am thinking about more colors. So I love the different stuff they have. They have sofas that are linen, they have velvet, they have leather. I love this timber 90 inch leather sofa and they have tons of different colors. And you can just trust that the quality is going to be great, anything you get there. They have great support, the team is available seven days a week and they have a 30 day satisfaction guarantee.

• 26:26Rayna Greenberg?

  So you can shop with confidence, knowing if you're not completely in love with your new furniture, you can easily return it. So if you are in the market for a beautiful new sofa, dining table or bed, head over to article.com.

• 26:36Ashley Hesseltine?

  Okay, Revolve. My pants are from Revolve.

• 26:40Rayna Greenberg?

  My pants are from Revolve.

• 26:41Ashley Hesseltine?

  My pants are from Revolve. My, these are Super Down. I met you this morning and you were like, are those Super Down from Revolve? And that is one of their house brands, which I love, really incredible prices and really quality stylish stuff. So as I go to Singapore, I think every outfit I'm wearing is from Revolve. I've been shopping for months with this in mind because it's so hot, like next level hot, where it's really vacation type wear.

• 27:05Rayna Greenberg?

  That's my favorite thing about the Royal website.

• 27:06Ashley Hesseltine?

  Yeah.

• 27:07Rayna Greenberg?

  Listen, you can buy clothes lots of places, but on Revolve, not only do they have like every single brand, but they have all these different shops. So if you want the vacation shop, you have festival wear shop, they have all of these curated collections and it helps me narrow it down. Cause otherwise I go to these websites sometimes and I'm like, how do I narrow this down? So I love that they do that.

• 27:23Ashley Hesseltine?

  Yes. So I just got, I had a lot of sets. I mean, I want like flowy stuff. I want some strapless tops and dresses. I just want to look very chic, but want to stay as cool as I can. I'm really stressed about the heat, but it's fine. We're going to do it. So Revolve is just where we get most of our clothes, 1,200 plus brands, 100,000 styles across.

• 27:44Ashley Hesseltine?

  Fashion, beauty and home. So there's everything on there. I mean, you can get your shoes, accessories, you can get your bags and again, like beauty and stuff for your home too. Everything from high end to emerging and exclusive labels. So they have Amanda Uppricher, Norma Kamali, Super Down, these pants, more to come, Free People, Lovers and Friends. That's a great brand that I love too. And you can just really trust, like while it's a ton of stuff, I feel like I can trust all of it and that they have curated only great brands, great styles.

• 28:11Rayna Greenberg?

  My jeans are Citizens of Humanity. People ask me constantly. And this watch is C E N D R E. I don't know if it's Cendre, but it's this like silver watch.

• 28:19Ashley Hesseltine?

  Yeah, it's so cute. And we just love their customer service, truly second to none. The two day shipping returns are so easy. They really put the customer first, which is so important. I've had some nightmare situations with brands, like whatever. So they're the best inclusive sizing options from extra, extra small to 4X. Personalized product recommendations. Let's see if you find some in Revolve and it's sold out and your size or whatever. Everything under it is just like it. Like the product recommendations, that's where I find, I'll go find a top or something I bought and then just that I already own.

• 28:47Rayna Greenberg?

  There's a hundred more items.

• 28:49Ashley Hesseltine?

  Yeah, it's like I've been wearing a lot of lace, like the red lace shirt I wore to in San Diego. And we both have this black lace shirt that we love so much. So we just are obsessed. We can't talk about it enough. We really hope you guys want to get on it. And they don't do this a lot, but they have a code for us and it is short-lived. So get on it. Whether it's a weekend away, a big night out, or just a much needed wardrobe refresh. Your dream wardrobe is just one click away. Head to revolve.com/gge, shop our edit and take 15% off your first order with code GGE. Fast two day shipping, easy returns. It's literally the only place you need to shop from, truly. That's revolve.com/gge to shop our favorites and get 15% off your first order with code GGE. The offer ends April 16th. Hopefully you guys are listening to this before that, but just keep the date in

• 29:31Ashley Hesseltine?

  mind. So until April 16th, happy shopping. And now we will get into it with our guest.

• 29:38Rayna Greenberg?

  Okay, guys, we are very excited to welcome our guest today. She is an award-winning journalist, a filmmaker and producer of several critically acclaimed digital series at Fox Media and NBC News. She hosts the Boy Problems Podcast and is the bestselling author of the book, For the Love of Men: A Vision of Mindful Masculinity. She has a master's in gender study and a PhD in dating. Please welcome to the show Dr. Liz Plank.

• 30:02Speaker 02

  Thank you. Thank you. That's my preferred title. I'm like so comfortable. I'm like, I'm already like,

• 30:07Rayna Greenberg?

  I love your fit. This LA cerulean blue.

• 30:10Speaker 02

  It's kind of cold today. I'm wearing like a, I feel like I'm east coasty right now, but I'm toasty.

• 30:16Rayna Greenberg?

  It's like a crisp fall day. We're not equipped for this. I have a fuzzy jacket. I wore a coat to work today.

• 30:21Ashley Hesseltine?

  You like Liz?

• 30:22Speaker 02

  Yeah, sure.

• 30:23Ashley Hesseltine?

  Does anyone call you Elizabeth?

• 30:25Speaker 02

  Well, people back home, because I'm Canadian and actually, yeah, yeah, yeah, it's a good time to not, to have a backup plan. No, people back home call me Ely, because I'm French Canadian. So Ely was like my name there. And then now when I moved to the States, it became Liz.

• 30:39Rayna Greenberg?

  That's cute. I like Libby also.

• 30:42Speaker 02

  Oh, you should call me Libby.

• 30:44Rayna Greenberg?

  Sure.

• 30:44Ashley Hesseltine?

  Wait, should we replay it?

• 30:45Rayna Greenberg?

  Elizabeth is.

• 30:47Ashley Hesseltine?

  Libby is Elizabeth?

• 30:48Rayna Greenberg?

  Yeah.

• 30:49Ashley Hesseltine?

  I had no idea.

• 30:49Speaker 02

  I've never heard that, but I love it.

• 30:51Rayna Greenberg?

  Okay, well, this is based on knowing one girl named Libby and her name was Elizabeth. So I don't know if this is for everybody.

• 30:56Speaker 02

  Let's do Libby.

• 30:57Ashley Hesseltine?

  That's one of those like, where did Bob come from, Rob?

• 31:00Speaker 02

  Yeah. Who decided that?

• 31:02Ashley Hesseltine?

  There's other weird men ones.

• 31:04Rayna Greenberg?

  Dick is crazy, but like Rob and Bob, like there's not even the same letter.

• 31:08Speaker 02

  Rob and Bob is weird.

• 31:10Rayna Greenberg?

  They were like, it rhymes, just call it that.

• 31:11Speaker 02

  Yeah. Bob is, do you know any young guys named Bob?

• 31:14Ashley Hesseltine?

  I dated a Bob and he would not let me change his name. First orgasm I ever had.

• 31:18Speaker 02

  The worst orgasm you've ever?

• 31:20Ashley Hesseltine?

  No, first.

• 31:21Speaker 02

  The worst orgasm. I'm like, oh my God.

• 31:23Ashley Hesseltine?

  I would be like, what about Bobby? I like Bobby.

• 31:25Rayna Greenberg?

  No, Bobby's great. And also I dated a couple, I did get him Robert and everybody called him Bob, just like, just like fuck with him and he hated it.

• 31:32Ashley Hesseltine?

  No, he would not let me. I was like, anything else?

• 31:35Rayna Greenberg?

  Anything else?

• 31:36Ashley Hesseltine?

  There's so many options. Rob, Robert, Bobby. He wanted Bob.

• 31:39Rayna Greenberg?

  Rob, Robbie. I'll take Robbie over Bob.

• 31:42Speaker 02

  Meeting a nineteen, or like, meeting a five-year-old named Bob?

• 31:49Speaker 02

  Like what?

• 31:49Ashley Hesseltine?

  It's jarring.

• 31:52Speaker 02

  Okay, if you're named Bob, like, we love you, but I just.

• 31:56Ashley Hesseltine?

  We don't want to offend the Bob community.

• 31:58Speaker 02

  Yeah, but maybe it's like, uh, it's like, you know how like all the young people have weird names out?

• 32:02Ashley Hesseltine?

  Like Bob, yeah.

• 32:03Speaker 02

  Like Bob. Or like Gertrude or like, you know, old.

• 32:07Ashley Hesseltine?

  Something.

• 32:07Rayna Greenberg?

  Charlotte's the number one name in the country is my grandma's name.

• 32:09Speaker 02

  Is it?

• 32:10Rayna Greenberg?

  Yeah, it's the number one girl name in the country.

• 32:12Speaker 02

  Wow.

• 32:12Ashley Hesseltine?

  No, but there is these nature names. Remember we talked about names that like?

• 32:16Rayna Greenberg?

  Wisp.

• 32:16Ashley Hesseltine?

  Stuff like that.

• 32:18Speaker 02

  Arrow, oatmeal. Like, I feel like there's like weird.

• 32:21Rayna Greenberg?

  Bob is similar to oatmeal.

• 32:22Speaker 02

  Same vibes.

• 32:24Rayna Greenberg?

  Wait, Liz, I, okay, so you have.

• 32:29Speaker 02

  My name is oatmeal. Okay, if you've ever matched with a guy named oatmeal, sound off in the comments.

• 32:35Rayna Greenberg?

  Guys in LA, they're all giving that their name is oatmeal. That's why I can't date here.

• 32:40Ashley Hesseltine?

  They're life coaches. They do breathwork.

• 32:42Speaker 02

  Yeah, you do. What's, but they don't go to therapy. What's your read on guys in LA?

• 32:46Rayna Greenberg?

  They are all hyper obsessed with wellness culture and they are the most toxic men you could meet in this country. Every single one of them is like, I love journaling. I'm a mindfulness coach and I will ruin your life. Oh, also, we are so sorry if you date in LA. Also, we're broke.

• 33:02Speaker 02

  Like, at least in New York, they are kind of like that, but they do have money.

• 33:06Ashley Hesseltine?

  Money. Yeah, yeah, yeah. They're just cagey about their jobs. Like, what do you do? Like, and we were just talking about this, like, it is a little bit of an ick for a guy to want to live here. It's a girl city.

• 33:18Speaker 02

  It's a girl. It's for the girls.

• 33:20Ashley Hesseltine?

  It's for the girls.

• 33:21Speaker 02

  You can live here if a girl brought you here.

• 33:23Ashley Hesseltine?

  I brought my husband here. He lives here.

• 33:25Rayna Greenberg?

  Right. That's so true. Like, to independently wake up one day and be like, as a man, I'd like to move to Los Angeles. If you're not a director or an agent.

• 33:34Ashley Hesseltine?

  Yes.

• 33:34Rayna Greenberg?

  Yeah. If you're a mindfulness coach.

• 33:35Ashley Hesseltine?

  Because if you're an actor, also Nick. But, you know, agent.

• 33:39Speaker 02

  I'm sorry.

• 33:40Rayna Greenberg?

  Agent, hot. Entertainment lawyer, hot.

• 33:42Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 33:42Ashley Hesseltine?

  Nice, yes.

• 33:43Rayna Greenberg?

  A director, you can't trust it because every, every man I go on a date with tells me they're a director. They're not.

• 33:48Speaker 02

  They're not.

• 33:48Rayna Greenberg?

  What'd you direct?

• 33:49Speaker 02

  No, and they're like 22 and they're like, I'm a creative director. I'm like, baby girl.

• 33:53Ashley Hesseltine?

  Have you ever, so you've dated a ton. Have you ever met a guy in LA that works in any financial industry? There are buildings here that have like names of banks on them, but who works in them?

• 34:04Speaker 02

  Yeah, I don't know anyone.

• 34:05Ashley Hesseltine?

  There's no LA finance guys.

• 34:07Speaker 02

  Right. Where are the LA finance guys?

• 34:09Rayna Greenberg?

  That doesn't exist here. That's crazy.

• 34:10Speaker 02

  That's what we need.

• 34:11Ashley Hesseltine?

  But they have.

• 34:13Rayna Greenberg?

  Like buildings, like

• 34:16Speaker 02

  They have buildings, but where are the men? Where are the men? We gotta fill those buildings. Yeah, it's like LA needs like a serious man job, like, like industry.

• 34:25Rayna Greenberg?

  So I had a contractor that like built my house. He was very sexy.

• 34:29Speaker 02

  Really?

• 34:29Rayna Greenberg?

  Yeah, so you, there are those here.

• 34:31Speaker 02

  Wait, that's cool. What hap- what was the story behind that? Did you guys hook up or?

• 34:34Rayna Greenberg?

  No, unfortunately, I never hooked up. I was so sad. You were, guys were really edging each other. It was kinda crazy.

• 34:41Rayna Greenberg?

  No, it was very yearning. It was, yeah, it was very Wuthering Heights. It was crazy.

• 34:45Speaker 02

  I love that.

• 34:46Rayna Greenberg?

  I know. No, it was so hot. Like every week we would be, I'd be like, what's the update on like the contractor? He's in your home?

• 34:52Speaker 02

  What?

• 34:53Rayna Greenberg?

  Like they were like standing close in a doorway once. I was like, wha- We were, we went to, we went plant shopping one day in the valley, just the two of us. We had like a little golf cart.

• 35:02Speaker 02

  No.

• 35:02Rayna Greenberg?

  We were like-

• 35:03Speaker 02

  Your husband and wife?

• 35:04Rayna Greenberg?

  And then he was asking me like what my thoughts are about having kids and like, did I wanna get married? And would I wanna live? And like, he had all these questions for me, like clearly asked me to be his wife. And then we went shopping for doors. He took me to a door factory.

• 35:16Speaker 02

  Hot.

• 35:16Rayna Greenberg?

  I know.

• 35:17Speaker 02

  Hot.

• 35:18Rayna Greenberg?

  A man that cares about doors? Did you learn about this in your gender studies?

• 35:23Speaker 02

  About men and wood? No, I didn't. We didn't talk about men. That was why I wrote the book. So I was like, we don't fucking limit.

• 35:29Rayna Greenberg?

  Where did you go to college?

• 35:30Speaker 02

  I went to McGill, cause I'm from Montreal.

• 35:32Rayna Greenberg?

  I, it was my dream to go to McGill. When I was like eight years old, I went to Montreal with my parents. This is so cute. I went to-

• 35:38Speaker 02

  I didn't know this.

• 35:39Rayna Greenberg?

  The week after nine 11, which is so crazy, but it- That's when you were visiting? I was 16. I visited. Totally, yeah. It was like my first week of college. I went to Montreal. I was like, this is the, you could gamble there. Every other pla- there was like sex shops where every other place it, but it's like a beautiful city and it's clean and it's great food. And I was like, I wanna go to school here.

• 35:58Speaker 02

  Oh, it's the best. McGill was like the best years of my life. Like, I'm not gonna lie. It was like, it was like- Everyone was hot and smart, you know, and, and I was in all the clubs. I was in synchronized swimming club. I, I was in like four feminist clubs. I was in the men's club for feminists. It was like men, like the white ribbon club, like men's, men against violence against women's club. Like I was the only girl. Like I just joined everything and I, and I- They were like, oh, girl. Yeah, no, they were the best men. I mean, it was like- I bet. Yeah, I was in love, was in love with- So I'm curious about gender studies and you did not focus on men. What did you, what did you focus on? Well, it's that my experience of the program and, and, and just like women's studies and, and sort of gender studies, uh, which I, I believe, again, I'm not in college right now.

• 36:42Speaker 02

  Sound off in the comments if you are a gender studies major and like you are talking about masculinity, but- Or if you think Liz is still in college. Or if what? I thought you were gonna say yes.

• 36:50Ashley Hesseltine?

  Sound off if you think I'm still in college.

• 36:51Speaker 02

  No, you guys are funny. No, I still get carded, you know, it's a problem. Do you guys get carded? Uh, no, sometimes, but I think they're just being nice. They're being nice. Yeah, I'm just like, I'm almost 40, like, stop. Anyway, sorry. I, sign off, yeah, because I do think in gender studies now, it, it's more holistic and I think they do talk about masculinity. They do talk about just queer theory, you know, it, it's more expansive, but in, but in my experience, you know, we, we, we had whatever, a 14 week, you know, course, and then there'd be like one week where you'd be like masculinity, you know, let's talk about men. And I was just really blown away by how little I had learned about how men benefit from feminism, you know, that, that, that we sort of learned that men are bad, you know, of the bad things that they do and the ways that they stand in the

• 37:36Speaker 02

  way of our progress. But when I started researching for the book, I was like, wait a fucking minute. Guys in feminist, like the most feminist countries are the happiest. They are less likely to end up being divorced or die of a violent death. They're more likely to be healthy. They're more likely to have paid leave. Like, it's like healthcare, it's just great. It's great for women, but it's also great for men. It makes sense. And I was like, where has been the PR for feminism, like around how great it is, it is for men? And, and then some people were like, why do you have to center men? And like, why do men have to benefit from it? Okay, okay, but they do, you know, they do. We should definitely, men should care about women, period, because you came out of a woman and you're, you know, we live in the same fucking world, but you know, it's also really good

• 38:21Speaker 02

  for you, even selfishly, to live in a, in a progressive feminist society. Okay, so you wrote this- Yeah. -book called For the Love of Men and you, I was-

• 38:29Rayna Greenberg?

  I read the book, but I also was like reading the comments about the book and the reviews about the book.

• 38:33Speaker 02

  Oh my god, I haven't read any of them. Are they bad?

• 38:35Rayna Greenberg?

  They're really positive and they say that this is really somebody who came at it from like, not a, not a male apologist point of view, but somebody who has like empathy for the male experience and let's figure out how to fix this. And it wasn't all just like, I hate men. Cause listen, it is fun to say that and it's fun to make fun of it. But I just, I guess want to hear your point of view in writing the book and like what you, what you chose to focus on.

• 38:55Speaker 02

  I mean, look, I didn't start off being that empathetic to be, to be honest, right? Because I have studied this, so I think about it all the time. I've, I, and, and I think once you also sort of put those, those, those glasses on, right? It's really hard to sort of take them off. And that's with everything. Once you learn about, I don't know, the environment, right? And the things that we put in our foods and you know, people are like, oh my god, I can't put, I can't even put red dye in my body. Right? It just sort of changes your perspective. So I definitely had that. But I also was like, why does every room that's trying to solve this issue only have women in them, right? Like, like I was really perplexed by the lack of men who were interested in, in gender equality.

• 39:36Speaker 02

  And so I started talking to them about it and I started realizing like, I'm the first person to have even brought up gender with them. I'm the first person to ask them about their relationship to their masculinity or what it means to be a man. Like, like I would go up to guys like in Martin's Square Park or, you know, cause I love men on the streets and I just love like, I like things in the wild, you know? I love, I love it. So it, uh, that, that kind of sort of like field research. It's not real research. It's, it's, you know, it's, it's, don't, if there are people with PhDs are gonna be like, that's not it, but.

• 40:06Rayna Greenberg?

  No, I know what you mean.

• 40:07Speaker 02

  You know, men would be like, no one has ever asked me that. And I'd be like, wait a minute, like women, we, we just go to the bar and we're in the bathroom and we're already going deep on what it means to be a girl, right? And, and we talk about it all the time. We talk about it with our moms. We, we think about the difference between my mother's, you know, experience of girlhood and, and womanhood and mine and how different it is and how it's sometimes in conflict. Like I, I feel like women have so many, you know, sort of opportunities to talk about it. And I realized that men had never really had, you know, permission or, you know, sort of the curiosity even, even. To do it or the safety, right? It was sort of like not safe to do it. If you're men, you know, can't talk about their feelings in the same way. It's it's with with other men. So and and then, once I started talking about it with them, I realized like, oh, my God,

• 40:51Speaker 02

  they're hurting us, but like they're hurting too. And and then, you know, you read women like Bell Hooks and Angela Davis and, you know, feminist scholars have been saying this forever, which is like, men are the first victims of of patriarchy. They get they get victimized and then they victimize us. Yeah, it really changed my perspective to to talk to men about about masculinity. Yeah, that's how I got there. And then I got nicer because, you know, because you get closer.

• 41:17Rayna Greenberg?

  Yeah.

• 41:17Speaker 02

  You know, you get closer.

• 41:18Rayna Greenberg?

  I like this theory that like they are the first victims. I'm not a male apologist, but like, men are the first people that are told like being feminine is gay. And it's not something to prioritize. Yes, it's it's to be looked down upon, to have feelings and express feelings. And, you know, if you're told from day one that that is bad and that girls do this, then you both you're mad at yourself, you're mad at women that get to do the stuff. You devalue what women are like. I I mean, yeah, you're right. There they have not been raised to value these types of things.

• 41:47Speaker 02

  I mean, just think about like when someone's rude or when someone's mean, right? Like, or when you're rude and you're when you're mean. It obviously hurts the person you're mean to or that you're rude to. But if you really think about it, like you've hurt yourself, right? Like, like you were, you know, whatever it is, right? I I think about when I'm when I'm mean is when I'm like self hating, when I'm mad at myself.

• 42:06Rayna Greenberg?

  When you're out of character, you're like, I'm in a bad, I'm in a bad place.

• 42:10Speaker 02

  Exactly. And I think that I had believed into the myth that like men enjoyed sexism and like men enjoyed patriarchy. And and I still think that's sort of largely the the belief. And and I I staunchly like disagree with that. And and I like some people, yeah, will say I'm too optimistic or I'm like naive. But I I truly think at its core, patriarchy is is really and I, you know, did some research around men's health and relationships. You know, there's a just a direct correlation, you know, between, yeah, having a very constrained or patriarchal view of masculinity. So so again, in layman terms, it's like, you know, thinking that a man has to win at all costs and that you have to dominate or you have to be aggressive like. That has direct links on men's health and you see it, you know, they're more likely

• 42:53Speaker 02

  to have a heart disease, they're more likely to die. I mean, it's really, it's not just, you know, oh, it's a bad feeling inside it. Like, it makes you live less long.

• 43:02Ashley Hesseltine?

  Yeah.

• 43:02Speaker 02

  Yeah, it just blows, it just blows my mind. I'm like, why don't guys?

• 43:06Ashley Hesseltine?

  I know, and I, I feel like we're seeing more, I mean, we love what Scott Galloway is doing and the GQ issue, it was in November, I think, the whole issue was on like modern masculinity. They interviewed all these guys, like, from so many different areas, like Stavros was there, like, all these different types of, like, men and what masculinity was to them. And I really enjoyed it, I'm fascinated by it. And to your point, like, the, the men that really respect women and are in touch with their emotions and are communicative and stable and healthy are the happiest men I know. I mean, they're, they're men that I think of, like, our brothers and my husband, like, our friends, like, the, the good ones that haven't bought into this patriarchy and they really look up to women in leadership roles

• 43:50Ashley Hesseltine?

  and all the good things are happy. They're not the angry men running around ruining everything.

• 43:55Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. No, totally. I mean, it's, it's just, yeah, I, I think there's this belief that patriarchy is natural and that, you know, men just naturally want, I mean, the, all of the evolutionary theories that even violence against women is a normal, natural impulse that men have. And it's like, yeah, go to a prison and ask them, you know, the, the men who have committed those crimes, you know, is that natural? Is that, and, and very often, yeah, they have trauma, they have, they've been raised in a, you know, a, a certain box. And I, I really fundamentally, yeah, I believe in the, in, in the good of men, you know, I really think, and it gets me into travel for sure, you know, women, it's like, so a woman to be like, I can fix you, you know, I see your potential, but I really

• 44:37Speaker 02

  do, you know, and, and, and it makes me feel, also, it makes my life better, you know, to, to not, because it was, it's hard.

• 44:43Ashley Hesseltine?

  But I live in both camps. I can, I hate what a lot of men have done. I don't hate all men. I'm at this point, both of our brothers, our husband, we've tons of men, male friends that are wonderful husbands, wonderful partners. I hate what a, a lot of, a lot of violence is perpetrated by men. Shootings are perpetrated by men. This whole government is run by terrible men and a couple terrible women. But so much of the terribleness in the world is perpetrated by men. I hate those people.

• 45:07Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 45:07Ashley Hesseltine?

  But I can meet a man and know he's different than, than other men.

• 45:10Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. And that's what's so amazing, right? Because then you get called a man hater, you know, and you're like, The fact that I still willfully go on dates with men with strangers that we meet.

• 45:21Rayna Greenberg?

  We date our number one predator.

• 45:22Speaker 02

  We date our number one predator. And we, I don't know what your experience has been, but I'm sure like a hundred percent of women have had, you know, some form of bad experience or multiple ones with men.

• 45:32Rayna Greenberg?

  Yeah.

• 45:32Speaker 02

  Men are dangerous to us and we still go, we still, you know, so I, you know, the pro, yeah. When people are like, you're a man hater. I'm like, no, the problem is, that's why I called the book For The Love Of Men. You know, I really love men. That's kind of my problem. Like, it would be easier if I didn't love them, actually. So, no, I think, I mean, that's the part that I, I think is, the patriarchy sort of robs us from just all of the love that we could have for each other. That, you know, if you think about, you know, nurture, nature, obviously the fact that we're different, it's a million different factors, you know, and trying to nail it down to what percentage is nature, what percentage is nurture is very difficult. But we are different. And when you think about it, like, we're the best team on earth. Like, we have such complementary skills and the patriarchy sort of robs us from that.

• 46:18Speaker 02

  Instead of being like, okay, you're good at this, I'm good at that, that makes us even better, right? And I think that's, in the best case, those are the best marriages. But I, I think as a whole, you know, and I think about what's going on with the government, like, women were just artificially removed from all positions of power and government, politics, econo, I mean, we're, look at any industry. And it's like, that doesn't fare well for women. That's obvious. It also doesn't fare well for men.

• 46:44Rayna Greenberg?

  I know, I know. It's a scary.

• 46:45Speaker 02

  Do you like this? Is Epstein shit? Like, do you think guys are glad that that happened and that they participated in it?

• 46:51Rayna Greenberg?

  Yeah.

• 46:51Speaker 02

  It's just, you need, you need everybody. And, and when we remove women, it's just, it's, it's a disservice to everybody.

• 46:58Rayna Greenberg?

  Yeah. I have a question for you, and then we do want to talk about politics, because you two talk about it quite a bit. You published this book in 2019, now it's 2026, obviously. If you rewrote this book today.

• 47:07Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 47:07Rayna Greenberg?

  What type of themes would you maybe change or focus on? Do you think things have gotten better, worse? I know that the administration has had a real effect on masculinity and what we tell young boys to grow up as. But do you have any thoughts about that?

• 47:18Speaker 02

  I don't know, you know, I, I, some days I, I really do wake up and I go. This is worse. Like, like, like, on every possible sort of way that we can measure this, it's worse. And, and I even think about people like Bell Hooks, who's a, she's passed, but she's a, you know, sort of the mother of, for me anyways, of, of just feminist theory. And, and I, I think about so many of the scholars that sort of like wrote about feminism in the eighties and nineties. And, you know, they continued to in the, in the 2000. I'm like, what would they think about what's going on? You know, I, I really do think we're sort of, everything is really heightened. It almost feels like we're in a, you know, people say this all the time, like, the writers' room is like, you know,

• 48:00Speaker 02

  if someone wrote what happened, you know, today in the White House, they wouldn't even get put in the show because it's too unrealistic. Everything is really heightened right now. And patriarchy is really heightened. And I think that's actually a good thing. My, my take, again, overly optimistic maybe, but it makes me feel better, and I think I'm right, is like, this is the last, like, the patriarchy's last tantrum. It is like, the last gasp, right?

• 48:23Ashley Hesseltine?

  Yeah.

• 48:23Speaker 02

  It's just, it's so over, it's, it's, you know, I think a lot about, you know, addicts and, and sort of dysfunctional family systems. I mean, we're in a dysfunctional family system. Like, it is really bad. But you kind of need things to get really bad for it to get better.

• 48:36Ashley Hesseltine?

  That's my take. I just want to survive it. And like, I don't know, we're not the worst of it. Like, it's gonna get so bad, and then it's gonna burn down and get rebuilt.

• 48:44Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 48:45Ashley Hesseltine?

  But I just, I want to survive it, and I want my family and friends to survive it. And like, I don't, you know, I just think that, I know that's what's happening, but there's so much collateral damage, and that's what's hard to stomach.

• 48:55Speaker 02

  It is.

• 48:56Ashley Hesseltine?

  But I'm with you.

• 48:57Speaker 02

  Yeah. You know, I think we're all, it's our first time doing this. I mean, and, and I think a lot about, you know, my, my, my parents, I guess, were, were activists in, in their own right. And so I, sometimes I will talk, I'll be like, so what did you guys, you know, how did you? And they were like, this is crazy, girl. Like, like, I really do think We have to be really kind with ourselves. Like, this is not easy shit. And obviously, every, you know, people will say, well, people kind of put us down for having feelings about, you know, just the apocalypse, like, living through like a, a real breakdown of, of just truth and reality and, and just all the things we thought we could depend on and think we're, I mean,

• 49:37Speaker 02

  that just puts such a stress on just your nervous system. Like, if you think about it, so I did some behavioral science stuff while I was doing my masters, and so I think a lot of things through that prism, like, ninety-seven percent of our behaviors are automatic. And we don't think that's what's happening, right? But like, only three percent are like conscious, right? So, most of your days, actually, you're not even, I don't know, when you're driving or walking, or even while you're talking, like, you're constantly, I mean, the brain is so evolved that it's predicting what's going to happen all of the time, so that it's not draining to be alive. And if you think about what we're living through right now, everything that we think we can predict, like, you can't. And it really does something to our nervous system, it does something to us as a collective.

• 50:19Speaker 02

  And so, I'm just proud of everyone who's like alive and, and like, surviving, right? Getting through the day and loving their neighbor, doing kind things for people that aren't losing their shit, even though you have every, you know, it's like the crash out is valid. You know, it's scary, but I think we should be really proud of ourselves for going through it and how we're, how we're carrying ourselves through it.

• 50:39Rayna Greenberg?

  I think that's comforting. I mean, yeah, I feel like every minute, I'm just like, what is the next bad thing that's gonna happen? And I think so many of our listeners, and we'll talk about like boy problems too, but so many of our listeners just struggle all the time with like, figuring out that their partner voted for this, that a parent voted for this, and saying like, you literally, you're voting against my rights. Your own best interests. You're voting against all of our best interests. You voted against somebody who has proven to be a criminal and sexually assaulted people and has said terrible things about every minority of women, and you're like, you, you voted for this and thought that this was a good idea for the president, the highest, the highest position in the country.

• 51:13Speaker 02

  Twice.

• 51:14Rayna Greenberg?

  Three times. And people, I mean, I, I kind of was surprised by how many people said I'm still struggling with like my partner, because I, I don't know, we didn't, we didn't just break up with people, but this is an ongoing pervasive issue.

• 51:23Speaker 02

  It's still coming up.

• 51:24Rayna Greenberg?

  Yeah, it's getting worse. I think even like a year and a half ago, some people were still able to be like, Okay, I can deal with the fact that they voted for this and I don't, I don't know anybody that can deal with it anymore.

• 51:34Speaker 02

  It takes, but again, it takes so much strength and I, anyone who's in that situation, you know, I just really like, I feel for you and you know, I think back at, yeah, I don't know, like in the 2010s, I think about the 2010s a lot, you know, cause it's like,

• 51:46Ashley Hesseltine?

  I have like nostalgia as a disease.

• 51:48Speaker 02

  No, it's, I feel like it's the 1950s in my head. It's just like, let's go back. I mean, not that the 1950s were perfect, but it feels like that, you know, when you look at, you look back and you're like, it feels so different and it was only 10 years ago, you know, or less in some instance.

• 52:03Ashley Hesseltine?

  I can't really even, even watching America's Next Top Model, like there's this, there's bad stuff happening. We've come so far, the documentary, but I'm like, it brings me back to 03. Like I'm just like, I yearn for the 90s and the 2000s.

• 52:16Rayna Greenberg?

  I yearn for the last time I thought things were bad.

• 52:18Speaker 02

  Well, that's the thing. And even back then, it was like, oh, he voted for Mitt Romney or, you know, and it's like, it was.

• 52:25Rayna Greenberg?

  George Bush is so bad. I miss those days.

• 52:27Speaker 02

  It's so funny. I saw this perfect thread. It was like, stop baby girling George Bush, you know, like they like were so, were so deprived of, of any kind of morality and clarity in our government that we're like, ah, war come and all.

• 52:40Ashley Hesseltine?

  I mean, I miss, I miss Trump 1.0. I miss Kellyanne Conway. I miss, I miss it. All the press secretaries, do you remember that whole run?

• 52:51Rayna Greenberg?

  Just every single week.

• 52:52Speaker 02

  Bring me Scaramucci. I mean, Scaramucci is like a resistance fighter now, you know?

• 52:55Ashley Hesseltine?

  Who was the first one? Sean Spicer? He was on Dancing with the Stars. Like there was people surrounding.

• 53:01Rayna Greenberg?

  It was so funny back then. We could joke.

• 53:03Speaker 02

  We could joke. I mean, it was serious, but it was like, it, it felt like whoops.

• 53:08Ashley Hesseltine?

  There was people with a conscience around, like.

• 53:11Speaker 02

  There were, yes. There were normal people around him and now there's, it's just wacko.

• 53:15Ashley Hesseltine?

  Yeah. So I just feel like we are fully in the, this could never happen in America, part of America. So that's really scary. But like, there are people, there's 80,000 people in like warehouses. Like what are we, what the, it's hard to even comprehend. Don't even start the Epstein files. But I mean, we don't need to go down this road, but like, you know, I was watching you, I follow you. I think you were like going to the Grammys and you were like, I'm also crashing out. Like, how do you? Reconcile the two because this is my daily struggle because I do wanna, I can't be in a deep dark hole all day.

• 53:45Speaker 02

  No, you can't. And also that's like letting them win.

• 53:47Ashley Hesseltine?

  Yeah, exactly, exactly.

• 53:48Speaker 02

  It's like, well, I think about it.

• 53:49Ashley Hesseltine?

  Is that how you look at it?

• 53:50Speaker 02

  Yeah, oh, totally. And, and I, I, I really try not to be that like annoying white woman liberal like that's just like, like, you know, just doom scrolling in bed, drinking rosé, you know, and, and just being of no help. By, by the way, like me, me being sad and doom scrolling like it's not helping anybody.

• 54:06Ashley Hesseltine?

  Right.

• 54:06Speaker 02

  And so, no, I think you've, look, I, I've been thinking a lot about this. Anytime that I'm like in that doom and gloom, like I, me and my friends were like, we call it like you have a teles nova in your head. You're like, oh my God. And, and it's true. It's true. They're literally putting people in warehouses. Like, like we are in the bad place. But anytime that I'm just like, oh my God, I'm like, be of service. Be of service. What's, what's something I can do? And there's so much that you can do. And I swear to God, not only does it actually help, it does. There's nothing too big or, I think sometimes we feel like, well, I gotta do this big, no. Literally do something nice for your neighbor. Like it does help. We can fight this if we're, if we're not fighting each other, you know?

• 54:45Speaker 02

  Do something for someone. And, and, and I think because of the phones, because of, again, there's so, there's a such an amalgamation of factors that, that like brought us to where we are again, that like, again, I'm proud of anybody who gets out of bed and like gets through the day. But I, I, I think that the phones and being at home alone, like go out and do something, you know? Go volunteer, go bring some, ask your neighbor if they need help with their groceries, go find, go to a senior center. I mean, you can pretty much show up anywhere.

• 55:11Ashley Hesseltine?

  Yeah.

• 55:12Speaker 02

  Church, you know, it, it there. And, and I, I have to say like, it really helped me a lot when I, when I started doing that.

• 55:19Ashley Hesseltine?

  Like that, just that mantra, like be of service.

• 55:20Speaker 02

  Actually do something.

• 55:21Ashley Hesseltine?

  And if that's not it, you know, I posted the other day, if you're like, this isn't normal. I don't know how we're supposed to go through the day. But Scott Galloway is doing this whole like resist and unsubscribe thing. I'm like unsubscribe to a thing.

• 55:31Speaker 02

  Yes, unsubscribe to a thing.

• 55:33Ashley Hesseltine?

  Take your money out of, that's not directly tied to the Epstein files, for example, but it's all tied in together.

• 55:38Speaker 02

  It's all tied together.

• 55:39Ashley Hesseltine?

  Do a thing. Just do one thing.

• 55:40Speaker 02

  You have so much power.

• 55:44Ashley Hesseltine?

  Yeah.

• 55:44Speaker 02

  You have so much power and they want you to think that you don't and you do. Power is something you give to people. It is not a currency that people have, right? Like, like, I mean, here, right? I wrote a book and you're asking me questions and you're like, oh, you have a master's degree in this thing. And like, you know, I have this authority. If I go to. I don't know, my house where my mom is like, "You're fucking annoying."

• 56:06Rayna Greenberg?

  That's so funny.

• 56:08Speaker 02

  You know what I mean? Then like, I don't have power, actually, you know? I'm like a daughter. I'm like, just a kid to her, right?

• 56:14Rayna Greenberg?

  A kid, yeah.

• 56:14Speaker 02

  So it's like, the people who are in power have power because of you.

• 56:17Rayna Greenberg?

  Yep.

• 56:18Speaker 02

  Right? Like, they are, I know the government feels very corrupt and it is, but like, they have power because you voted them in and people voted them in. They don't just have that. And so, the part about joy and the part about going out and doing something is that it reminds you of your power. It reminds you, you do have influence on the world. If you do something nice to someone else, they'll do something nice. You have an effect in the world that you're living in. And I think that sometimes, you know, yeah, if you're just scrolling or you're just reading the news, you're like, "I don't matter at all," you know? And you really do. You really do. You really, that's the only thing that's ever changed anything.

• 56:48Rayna Greenberg?

  Yeah.

• 56:49Speaker 02

  Is people realizing that they matter, you know?

• 56:51Rayna Greenberg?

  Yeah. I think that's really important to remember. Okay, we're gonna take a quick break and get right back into it with Liz. I'm telling you guys about VivaRel. So Ashley, you're gonna go away on this trip and you want stuff that's like stylish and like stuff that you can wear in like hot weather. So VivaRel is actually perfect. It's a members-only club where you can borrow designer bags, jewelry, watches, even diamonds. So it's like rotating your dream closet. This is perfect for vacation to me because like, we buy stuff and you're like, "I might just wear this once. This is perfect for like Singapore, but I might not wear it anywhere else." So this is like a perfect place to do that. And there are no return dates, so you can keep it as long as you want. So if you're gonna go away for like two weeks and you're like, "I will get around to this when I get around to this," that's great. You can buy it for less than anywhere else. Also, if you are falling in love with your items, you can just keep it, pay for it.

• 57:32Speaker 02

  Love that.

• 57:32Rayna Greenberg?

  The classic tier is 139 a month and it's by far the most popular and makes the most sense. But they're constantly refreshing the inventory. So if you're looking for like, I mean like really high-end brands to borrow, like Prada, Fendi, Saint Laurent, Dior. They have all these brands you like drool over and maybe you don't want to keep and shell out for. So they add millions of dollars in new pieces every single week. There's always a reason to go back on this site. And they gave us an amazing offer, which expires at the end of the month. So if you've been curious, waiting for a sign... You can use our referral code GGE to get your first month of membership completely for free. This is the time to join. You guys will really love it. There's so much fun stuff to shop on there. Also, festival season is coming up, like, people are gonna start vacationing. Go to vivrelle.com and apply for a membership today using the referral code GGE for the first month of membership free. The code will also allow you to skip the

• 58:17Rayna Greenberg?

  Vivrel waitlist. That's V-I-V-R-E-L-L-E.com. Use code GGE for your first month for free.

• 58:23Ashley Hesseltine?

  Okay, and ladies, if you have ever felt like something was off in your body but couldn't quite explain what, I feel like we've all been there, or maybe you've even gone to the doctor and you couldn't get the answers you needed, or you were told everything is fine and you're like, "It's not fine. I know it's not fine. I know my body." We, as women, are so intuitive and I feel like we always know when something's wrong, but when you can't seem to figure it out, or the doctors can't seem to figure it out, it can be super frustrating. So, whatever your concern is, from changes in your body, unexplained weight gain, to anxiety, to perimenopause or menopause symptoms, this is where HERS can help. They are flipping the script and rethinking our outdated healthcare system to finally give women what they deserve. Care that's accessible, convenient, built around our real needs, and backed by experts in women's health. And it is really easy to start. You're gonna

• 59:06Ashley Hesseltine?

  complete a free online medical intake form that goes beyond the basics, so you can explain what you're experiencing. And if something feels off but you aren't sure what, HERS also offers access to in-depth lab testing to give you real clarity. And then if you're eligible, a licensed medical provider will determine right-for-you treatment plan options. And HERS offers comprehensive care entirely online for the health concerns women don't want to navigate alone. You can reach out 24/7 with any questions or help adjusting your plan. It's care that helps you move forward instead of staying stuck, so feeling like yourself again doesn't feel so far away. So, get the support that actually reflects your needs and start your free intake at forhers.com. That's F-O-R-H-E-R-S.com, forhers.com.

• 59:47Rayna Greenberg?

  Okay, well, let's talk about dating. You've dated all kinds of...

• 59:50Ashley Hesseltine?

  Yeah, everybody.

• 59:51Rayna Greenberg?

  So we don't.

• 59:52Ashley Hesseltine?

  Name them, list them.

• 59:54Rayna Greenberg?

  We.

• 59:55Ashley Hesseltine?

  Yeah, names and addresses.

• 59:56Rayna Greenberg?

  Start with the most famous one.

• 59:57Ashley Hesseltine?

  We do a segment called doxing. That's coming up.

• 1:00:00Rayna Greenberg?

  Give us.

• 1:00:01Speaker 02

  Here are their phone numbers. Yeah.

• 1:00:02Ashley Hesseltine?

  I am obsessed with talking about categories of people you've dated when it comes to athletes, actors, politicians, all the things.

• 1:00:10Rayna Greenberg?

  We're gonna rank the worst men.

• 1:00:12Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 1:00:12Ashley Hesseltine?

  We're the best. We can do a positive spin.

• 1:00:14Speaker 02

  Oh, I like that. I like best.

• 1:00:15Ashley Hesseltine?

  We'll do best.

• 1:00:16Speaker 02

  Okay, I like best.

• 1:00:17Ashley Hesseltine?

  Yeah, but it go best to worst.

• 1:00:18Speaker 02

  Best to worst.

• 1:00:19Rayna Greenberg?

  What am I gonna say?

• 1:00:21Speaker 02

  You're like, which one is was good?

• 1:00:22Ashley Hesseltine?

  Yeah.

• 1:00:23Rayna Greenberg?

  Who was your favorite profession you've dated?

• 1:00:24Ashley Hesseltine?

  You have comedians and chefs, I feel like, on lock.

• 1:00:26Rayna Greenberg?

  I've dated good and bad. I've had good and bad. I dated a lawyer. I dated.

• 1:00:31Ashley Hesseltine?

  Was I good?

• 1:00:32Rayna Greenberg?

  Neutral, right in the middle. Not bad.

• 1:00:35Ashley Hesseltine?

  Okay.

• 1:00:35Rayna Greenberg?

  Not bad.

• 1:00:36Ashley Hesseltine?

  But when it comes to like, a little more on the fame side, like, what do you, I mean, actors?

• 1:00:42Speaker 02

  I mean, I think male actors are like.

• 1:00:44Rayna Greenberg?

  What's the upside?

• 1:00:45Speaker 02

  What's the upside? I mean, look, it's very, if you are dating a male actor, it's so dreamy. I mean, it's sort of dreamy, right?

• 1:00:53Ashley Hesseltine?

  Okay.

• 1:00:53Speaker 02

  Cause he's, he's liked by so many people.

• 1:00:57Ashley Hesseltine?

  Okay.

• 1:00:57Speaker 02

  Right? And coveted, and he chose you. You know, I think that's why I was attracted to that, or, or, you know, and, and I dated people that I, you know, had nice qualities and things that I liked about them, but I think there's that element of like, I, you know, it's toxic and like, it's a problem of self-worth, which I'm like, working on, but like.

• 1:01:15Ashley Hesseltine?

  But I understand what you're saying.

• 1:01:16Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:01:16Ashley Hesseltine?

  Everybody wants a special.

• 1:01:17Speaker 02

  You feel special. You're like, oh my God, he likes me, you know?

• 1:01:20Ashley Hesseltine?

  You said they want princess treatment.

• 1:01:22Speaker 02

  They want princess treatment. They're divas.

• 1:01:24Ashley Hesseltine?

  Yeah.

• 1:01:24Speaker 02

  They're divas, cause, cause they get treated like divas.

• 1:01:27Ashley Hesseltine?

  Yeah.

• 1:01:27Speaker 02

  Right? Everyone is at their beck and call. You know, I remember once I was dating, well, he was an athlete, but I was a, you know, he, he didn't want princess treatment, but they're, he wanted to be famous. You know, there was that element, which we've talked about, and he wanted to live in LA, so it's a double whammy. And so I had reservations, you know, I was like, oh, I don't know if this is good. And then I, I heard him on a Zoom call and I heard how everyone was talking to him.

• 1:01:49Speaker 02

  Hi, how's it go? And I was like, oh, that explains everything.

• 1:01:53Rayna Greenberg?

  Yes.

• 1:01:54Speaker 02

  Cause I don't talk to you like that and you hate it, you know? And, and that's sort of the standard. And so not to like, you know, but they, it's like, everything's according to their mood, their uh schedule.

• 1:02:07Rayna Greenberg?

  Everything orbits around them, they're the sun.

• 1:02:08Speaker 02

  Yeah, and that's not hot, that's very girly, it's very girly, you know, it's, it's, there's, they're tiny eggs if they eat this and it's like, alright, I can't, like, I'm the one.

• 1:02:17Rayna Greenberg?

  You can't be the one.

• 1:02:18Speaker 02

  You can't be, we can't both.

• 1:02:20Rayna Greenberg?

  There are matches for them out there.

• 1:02:21Speaker 02

  There are.

• 1:02:22Rayna Greenberg?

  Exactly, there are women that are like, whatever, that, what you're saying doesn't bother me at all.

• 1:02:25Speaker 02

  There are.

• 1:02:26Rayna Greenberg?

  I wanna live that life and I'll talk to them like that and I don't care, but it just couldn't be me.

• 1:02:29Speaker 02

  No, I've looked, cause sometimes I, I reminisce, you know, what we all do, and then I'll go look on their profiles and I'm like, and I'll see their new girlfriend and I'm like, that makes sense. Like, she, she's like a model that, you know, doesn't have a job, you know, I'm like, that works.

• 1:02:42Rayna Greenberg?

  She'll put up with stuff that I wouldn't have.

• 1:02:44Speaker 02

  Follow him around the world, you know, I, I can't.

• 1:02:47Rayna Greenberg?

  And she's living the dream.

• 1:02:47Speaker 02

  And she is, good for her, good for them, you know, I think that's what I really, I was thinking about that, about it this week where it's like my type, what, what, what is it? It, it's like my type is bad, like I really, I don't like my type.

• 1:03:02Rayna Greenberg?

  Well, it's, but do you, do you like people that are successful and that have?

• 1:03:06Speaker 02

  Yeah, like who are very charming and give me a lot of attention at first, you know, and yeah, very impressive, very smart, very, and, and then I hate, I hate it, cause they're obsessed with themselves, they're charming with me, but they're gonna be charming with every other person, right, they need a lot of attention, and if they don't get it from me, they're gonna go get it from someone else. They're good at manipulating, cause they manipulate people's perception of them, so they know how to manipulate yours. To me, it's that, it's, it's always, it's like, oh my god, this person, and it's like, oh my god, this person.

• 1:03:35Rayna Greenberg?

  I totally know what you're saying, though, you pick people that are like a star, because that's attractive, and success is attractive, confidence is attractive. Everybody thinking this person is great and then picking you, the attention from them, it's like, it's, you're drunk on it.

• 1:03:48Speaker 02

  You're drunk.

• 1:03:49Rayna Greenberg?

  But a lot comes with that, like if they're the star, you, there's only one star.

• 1:03:54Speaker 02

  There's only one star.

• 1:03:54Rayna Greenberg?

  You don't get it all, like you have to, we always talk about like the things that maybe attractive could also be what makes someone unattractive, like.

• 1:04:01Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 1:04:01Rayna Greenberg?

  There's unicorns out there, but.

• 1:04:03Ashley Hesseltine?

  A lot of women want this really rich, hot, tall, uber-successful guy that aside from a trust fund is like someone that's probably worked non-stop. You want this CEO, you want this high-power CEO vibe, but you also want him to be this present father who's been a husband, who dotes on you. They don't go together. I've never seen it.

• 1:04:23Speaker 02

  That's true.

• 1:04:23Ashley Hesseltine?

  You gotta kind of pick and choose because these traits don't actually fit in one human.

• 1:04:27Speaker 02

  Okay, but here's my take. What you're saying is, we love contradictions, right? We love a guy who's an athlete, who's hot, but goes to therapy. We love a guy who's rich, but also like makes you dinner, right? And I would argue, men also like that in women. Men like women who are feminine, like I'm a Pilates instructor, but I have my own studio. You know, like, like they want feminine and masculine too, but I think women are better at exuding both because we're allowed, right? Like, we're encouraged even.

• 1:04:56Rayna Greenberg?

  We're encouraged to. Women are constantly encouraged. And don't forget that you're a woman. And don't forget you have to make them feel good. And don't forget you have to build them up. I mean, we are constantly coached to don't forget.

• 1:05:05Speaker 02

  Don't forget. And we know exactly, we're always thinking about what they want us to be like. I feel like as a girl, you just know what they want you to, you know, we're, it's called, what do they call it? I mean, the male gaze. It's, it's internalized, right? We literally have it. Sometimes you don't even know, do I like this? Or do I think, do I know that guys like it and that's why I like it?

• 1:05:23Rayna Greenberg?

  So was it Sarah Silverman in her recent special? She said like, women know how to exist in a male world because we have had to exist in it. We've been coached and trained. And men have not had to do that.

• 1:05:32Speaker 02

  No, they have no clue.

• 1:05:34Rayna Greenberg?

  And I don't know that I like the contradiction. It's just, I, I don't know. I've rarely found somebody that can be in both camps. And a friend of mine was talking to me about her husband and she was like, he's not the most alpha guy, but I trust him. I know he's gonna show up for me. I know he's consistent. She's like, sometimes I'm like, do I want a more alpha guy? But I like these things. And I was like, I don't know that you're gonna find the stuff that you really like.

• 1:05:54Ashley Hesseltine?

  I think it's realistic about what exists in one person, male or female. Like sometimes the, the things we see guys want in a woman, that doesn't, doesn't work like that. Even the most dynamic, incredible woman, these things don't coexist. Like, it just, whatever it may be, like, I'm just talking about in general, when you really don't kind of understand what can Be in one person.

• 1:06:14Speaker 02

  Yeah, I also think women need higher standards than men because we have more. I mean, Scott talks about this a lot and it's just a fact of nature. Like there's a lot more costs to us. I mean, talk not just about men as predator, like you could get literally kidnapped if you go on a date with the wrong guy. Or, or again, I mean, you end up in an abusive relationship. That's a threat to your safety or emotional safety. But like, we get pregnant, we get STDs more easily. They, they go inside of us. Like there's like, there's just biological differences that mean, and, and this is throughout the animal kingdom, right? Like if there's a really good book, Kat Bohannon called Eve. I'm obsessed with this book, but it has a long subtitle.

• 1:06:52Ashley Hesseltine?

  It says Eve, how the female body drove 200 million years of human evolution.

• 1:06:56Speaker 02

  Basically, this book changed my life. If you are a woman and you are struggling with your dating life and you're like, oh my God, are my standards too high? Should I have settled? Should I have dated that male actor who makes no money and is into crypto? Like you read this book and you go, oh my God, women are supposed to be choosy. Women are supposed to pick the best guys and not the violent, aggressive ones. And the only reason we've survived it as a species is because women were like, that guy's helpful. That guy's good for me or he's good for my offspring. And so I, I think it's good to be choosy.

• 1:07:30Ashley Hesseltine?

  Yeah.

• 1:07:30Speaker 02

  It's, it's important. It's kind of, again, our natural sort of state as, as, as women. And, and we have a lot more to lose, you know?

• 1:07:38Ashley Hesseltine?

  I totally, I totally agree. I just think sometimes you might think you want something you don't like.

• 1:07:44Speaker 02

  Well, that's true.

• 1:07:45Ashley Hesseltine?

  You want all these good qualities and you want him to be a fucking billionaire. Like find me one.

• 1:07:49Rayna Greenberg?

  You know, I've said that about women for a long time too, that like met and report that I want this person who's like a badass and I go get her and she makes her own money. But I want her to be soft and I want her to be, you know, nurturing and I want her to like, it's like to your point that you don't get everything in one person. I mean, I'm not work obsessed, but my job is my life. It's the most important thing. What Ashley and I have built is the most important thing I'll ever do with my life. I'm so proud of it. A partner will come second to that, a close second. And I, I mean, Ashley's husband is such a part of our business and he's traveled with us. He's at our shows and he's fans of us and he just like loves to watch his wife on stage and be like, look at her go. But if you like all those really alpha characters in a woman.

• 1:08:26Ashley Hesseltine?

  And then you still want her to cook and clean and do all the things.

• 1:08:28Rayna Greenberg?

  Yeah, be available seven days a week on that trip girl.

• 1:08:30Speaker 02

  What about you when you're married? Like is your part, is, is what you, your business more important than your husband? Or is it equal? Or is he supposed to be more important?

• 1:08:38Ashley Hesseltine?

  My relationship with Rayna is so important that she's like my family, like my sister. But if it was like, choose your husband or the podcast, I wouldn't, I don't, I wouldn't.

• 1:08:50Rayna Greenberg?

  Yeah. Well, you wouldn't pick a partner that would ever put you in a position like that.

• 1:08:53Speaker 02

  Make you have to rank.

• 1:08:54Ashley Hesseltine?

  I don't know, it was the apocalypse and it was like, pick your husband or girl's got to get shut down. I would pick my husband.

• 1:09:00Rayna Greenberg?

  Sure, sure, sure.

• 1:09:01Ashley Hesseltine?

  I guess, so it's like.

• 1:09:03Rayna Greenberg?

  What I'm saying though is like.

• 1:09:04Ashley Hesseltine?

  Cause human relationships and connections are like.

• 1:09:06Speaker 02

  Are important.

• 1:09:07Rayna Greenberg?

  But if somebody's like, I don't want somebody that tours a lot for work. And I would be, well, then I don't think I'm your girl.

• 1:09:13Speaker 02

  No.

• 1:09:13Rayna Greenberg?

  Like we wouldn't be getting married.

• 1:09:15Ashley Hesseltine?

  But it goes back to your original point of how we balance each other out. And it's really beautiful.

• 1:09:19Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 1:09:20Ashley Hesseltine?

  And whatever, whatever relationship, heterosexual and not, you know, finding people like that work together and can be almost a yin and yang is like really special.

• 1:09:29Speaker 02

  It is. And the best relationships I've had were when the, you know, the people I, I was dating and, and the guys were helping my career, right? And, and not like doing things for me or whatever, but being, I don't know, just like supporting me so much. And actually I could be my best self in my job because of them, you know? So I think that's what, that's what I'm looking for. I mean.

• 1:09:50Ashley Hesseltine?

  Yeah. I really think that book that you mentioned is so important. I just, I really love this like counteracting of, am I too picky? It's like, understand why you should be.

• 1:10:00Speaker 02

  You should be.

• 1:10:01Ashley Hesseltine?

  Like having unrealistic standards is one thing, but like you should not settle.

• 1:10:06Speaker 02

  No, don't settle. It's dangerous. It's literally dangerous to settle.

• 1:10:10Ashley Hesseltine?

  Yeah.

• 1:10:10Speaker 02

  I mean, and we all know stories. We can all, I mean, or in my own past. I mean, I'm like, oof, thank God I didn't have a baby with that guy.

• 1:10:17Ashley Hesseltine?

  Oh my gosh.

• 1:10:18Speaker 02

  Almost did. And, and you know, a lot of people do. And, and then they, you know, survive and thrive and it's amazing. Women are amazing. Women will are literally resilient. Doesn't even, you know, begin to explain it. But no, you're, you're, that's normal. It's natural. And, and also tons of, you know, in that book, again, she talks about, and I don't know if you, how you feel about kids or whatever, but you know, I think for a lot of women, I think a lot of women right now, I'm feeling it where I feel like if I was 10 years younger, not because of my age, but because of the time that I would have been my age 10, 10 years ago. I feel like I would have a family and I would have kids because the world was just very different.

• 1:10:57Ashley Hesseltine?

  Yeah.

• 1:10:57Speaker 02

  And I think that there are a lot of women who are kind of grieving.

• 1:11:00Ashley Hesseltine?

  Yeah.

• 1:11:01Speaker 02

  The life that they thought that they would have, and that doesn't mean they want to just find a guy and have kids and just make it work just because they want kids. But they're like, okay, that didn't work out because of a million different reasons. And so what does life look like? And, and, and yeah, like, you know, the tried wife discourse and again, patriarchy is normal and women are meant to be mothers and that's your natural. She basically, Cabo Hanan cites multiple, multiple species where like 20% of, of the entire species doesn't have children. Because they contribute in different ways and make that species survive. So like everyone, again, it comes back to contributing. Everyone has a role and everyone is important. And no matter how your life turned out, uh, that, that's just the way, you know, that, that it's, it's not wrong.

• 1:11:47Speaker 02

  And you didn't do anything wrong. I think that's like important. That's what I need to hear sometimes.

• 1:11:50Ashley Hesseltine?

  It's so important. I get so mad of this, like women are just meant to have children discourse. I won't even entertain it, but like,

• 1:11:55Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:11:56Ashley Hesseltine?

  I'm paying into the system for your kids that I don't, and I don't want kids and I'm happy to do it. I'm like playing my part in the village and the community. And of course I have nephews too, but I'm like, I am playing my part. And I actually want to do more because I've chosen not to have.

• 1:12:10Speaker 02

  You can do more.

• 1:12:10Ashley Hesseltine?

  And we need people to have kids. Like we have to procreate. We have, uh, like the population is shrinking. We need younger people to care for older people. Like I'm in full support of people. I mean, it's a tough time now, but I've always felt like I'm more than happy to.

• 1:12:24Rayna Greenberg?

  Pay taxes and support kids as someone who is never going to have them.

• 1:12:30Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:12:30Rayna Greenberg?

  Cause that's how the society functions.

• 1:12:32Speaker 02

  Totally. And you're probably working more, you know, all those extra hours, you're contributing in taxes and you know, it's,

• 1:12:37Rayna Greenberg?

  I get to travel more, so my money goes into the economy.

• 1:12:40Speaker 02

  There we go. Yeah.

• 1:12:43Rayna Greenberg?

  You want kids?

• 1:12:43Speaker 02

  Oh gosh, guys, I don't know.

• 1:12:46Rayna Greenberg?

  But you used to and you're kind of feeling.

• 1:12:48Speaker 02

  Yeah, it's, my life is different than how I thought it would be, you know, I really think, yeah, I'm not willing to settle and I'm not willing to like, date someone, yeah, who, who sort of crushes my dreams or who needs princess treatment or male actor, like, I, I'm, I'm really proud of all of my choices. And I still don't know what, yeah, the future sort of holds, but I'm open to it.

• 1:13:13Rayna Greenberg?

  I appreciate that you're vulnerable about that. You said that there, we're watching so many people like mourn the life that they didn't get to have, won't get to have. And I have several girlfriends that are turning 40 or they're in their early 40s and I think thought they would have kids, but they are proud of the decisions that they made. Like you said, and you know, living in both camps of like, I'm not going to maybe get the kids, but like, look at all the great things that I have in my life. And I didn't choose a partner that wouldn't have made me happy to have those things.

• 1:13:41Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 1:13:42Rayna Greenberg?

  I think all those things can exist in one person. And I, I thought you said like mourning the life that you thought you would have.

• 1:13:47Speaker 02

  Yeah, I think it's important to acknowledge that. Cause I, yeah, sometimes I feel like on the internet, you know, there's sort of two choices. You know, you have the trad wife, like being a mom is the best thing ever and you'll never regret it. And, and then there's the, you know, I'm child free and I just had the best vacation of my life and children suck. And you're like, well, I'm, I don't really identify with either of those, you know, I, I love children. And also, I mean, I think sometimes it's even weird that, again, as a child free person who really thinks that that should be an option, that's not, you know, sort of marginalized. I, I do think that sometimes it, it can turn into this anti-child thing. And it's like, no, children are amazing and children, like, we should love them.

• 1:14:25Speaker 02

  And, but yeah, sometimes I feel like, well, I have all this love to give, you know, and I don't know where to put it, you know, that's kind of what I'm feeling now, you know, and, And I get to to acknowledge that that's sad, but also, okay, then what can I do with this one precious life? You know, and so now it's like I don't get to be a parent right now, and maybe I won't, you know, be a parent. And that's what's meant to happen. But I get to like reparent myself like I get to like, I'm like, okay, if I have now income and disposable income that I'm not, yeah, spending on like, you know, tuition or whatever, or like diapers. Okay, what would like my my younger self, like, what can I, what can I give her like, I got, you know, even like I'm sort of, I had a situation. Hold on, I shouldn't talk about it. Anyway, I've had a live a change in my living situation.

• 1:15:09Speaker 02

  And and so I was like, okay, this is sad and like I'm mourning. Yeah, a lot. But then I'm like, okay, what would my eight year old self be like, like, what would be her dream home? You know, and so I got, I I'm getting all these little, you know, this heart shaped little, you know, lamp. And I got like, I got a machine that like warms up your towels for my bathroom.

• 1:15:31Ashley Hesseltine?

  Oh, my God.

• 1:15:31Speaker 02

  It's like, I don't need it.

• 1:15:32Ashley Hesseltine?

  I need that.

• 1:15:33Speaker 02

  I'm gonna spend it because for her like she's like, what like, you know, so I I get to sort of give her this amazing life. And and reparent her and and and get so much out of what she also gives me if I can stay connected to her. And and if that's what I've done with my life, you know, like.

• 1:15:49Ashley Hesseltine?

  You've impacted so many people.

• 1:15:50Speaker 02

  Yeah, well, I get more time.

• 1:15:51Ashley Hesseltine?

  Today, and like you will have helped them get through the day.

• 1:15:54Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:15:54Ashley Hesseltine?

  People will message us like you helped raise me like we've, you know, you are doing that for people. You're like this really positive female role model like that's.

• 1:16:02Speaker 02

  I hope so. Yeah.

• 1:16:04Ashley Hesseltine?

  You are, I mean.

• 1:16:05Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:16:05Ashley Hesseltine?

  Totally. It's like undoubtedly. So that's like part of it, you know, like you've showed, I hate to be like this person, but you've showed young women what they can be. So I always think of, you know, we're all kind of moms in our own.

• 1:16:18Speaker 02

  We are. And and also happiness is so relative, you know, at the same time as I'm grieving this life that I thought I would have, I don't. Think I'm less happy.

• 1:16:27Rayna Greenberg?

  Totally.

• 1:16:28Speaker 02

  I, I don't think, I mean, it's so hard to quantify, but, but you know, I, I know that there are women who are, you know, who are in my life who have kids and who are looking at me and like, oh my God, if I only I could spend 30 bucks on a towel warmer, you know, like, like, and they, they maybe are grieving that, something else, right? So, you know, I think it's also that, you know, we measure ourselves, we, we think, we, we sort of have this terminal uniqueness, right? It's like, well, my life is sad and I didn't achieve this, but there are moms who didn't achieve certain things because they, you know, we're, we're at home with their kids and, and, and also you always get to start over, you know, I, I think,

• 1:17:01Rayna Greenberg?

  Right, love is long, it's never too late.

• 1:17:02Speaker 02

  You get to reimagine, you get to rebrand yourself at any time.

• 1:17:05Rayna Greenberg?

  And to your point, I think you can be a little more of a digestible role model, because there are these camps of like, being a mother is the most important and hardest job in the whole, and, and you have this other camp of like, fuck kids, my life is so good, you know, and I think most people exist in the middle.

• 1:17:18Speaker 02

  I think so too.

• 1:17:19Ashley Hesseltine?

  It's interesting you brought that up, because as, I have never wanted kids my whole life and it's a part of my personality, we've done an episode on it and I don't resonate with like those memes and those things that much, if they feel really aggressive to me, I'll send them to Raina privately, but I don't like,

• 1:17:32Speaker 02

  No, sometimes there are some funny ones.

• 1:17:34Ashley Hesseltine?

  We'll do the whole, like, we'll do the like, can you imagine having kids kind of thing, but why would I want moms to feel shamed? Like, I don't, I don't want them shaming me.

• 1:17:42Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:17:42Ashley Hesseltine?

  I don't want you shaming me for my choices, so why would I?

• 1:17:45Rayna Greenberg?

  We have our friends that are moms.

• 1:17:47Ashley Hesseltine?

  Yes. Yeah, thank you for picking up the slack on the mom front.

• 1:17:50Speaker 02

  For sure. And do you want kids? Do you know?

• 1:17:53Rayna Greenberg?

  So I, when I was in like my early twenties, I was like, I will have kids even if I don't have a partner.

• 1:17:58Ashley Hesseltine?

  When you met me.

• 1:17:59Rayna Greenberg?

  Like, that's how much I was like, I was like, I'll get pregnant on my own and the older I've gotten, the more I just, I don't know, the more people around me I've seen have kids and I didn't, I never realized how much work it was. That sounds naive and silly, but like, I didn't realize like how much sacrifice and how much work and how much time and how hard it is on your relationship and.

• 1:18:16Ashley Hesseltine?

  Honestly, all the things that you have to do to be a great parent, I do not want to do those things. And knowing that, I think is good parenting.

• 1:18:23Speaker 02

  It is.

• 1:18:24Ashley Hesseltine?

  Being able to be like, I don't want to be a parent, because all the things my parents did to be great parents, I do not want to do those things. And I don't want to bring a child into the world and resent it.

• 1:18:32Speaker 02

  Yeah, no, me too. I'd rather regret not doing it than do it. And oh, my God, you know? And yeah, I think that's one. I had the same thing where in my, yeah, 20, or I guess when I was younger, it was so, oh, that'll happen. And then same where like my 30s, I was like, I don't really relate, you know? Or, or, or, and also back to the 2010s, you know, this, the Sheryl Sandberg, like, you can do it all, you can lean in. I was like, I have hives. Like, I don't, that seems not fun at all. And not only 10 years ago would have it been different, but also if we lived in a differently constructed society. I mean, it's not normal to be alone in your house.

• 1:19:13Ashley Hesseltine?

  It's a worse country to have a kid.

• 1:19:15Speaker 02

  Yes. No, you, it's, it's, it's diabolical. It's, it's, especially in the United States. I mean,

• 1:19:20Ashley Hesseltine?

  That's what I'm saying.

• 1:19:21Speaker 02

  It's, it's ridiculous. It's, it's, it's actually like, again, speaking of like, when people say it's anti-child, you know, people are anti-child, I'm like, you, the people who have children in this country without paid leave, without any kind of support, like, they love kids, that's why they do it. So, no, I think, you know, I think about if we lived in communes, you know, and we all kind of like, live together and we share, you know, my friends who have more commune life, life, they're not communes at all, but they really hang out as a group. They, they have a pod, right? That seems really more fun to me. And, and doable, and, and actually like beautiful.

• 1:19:53Ashley Hesseltine?

  Yeah.

• 1:19:54Speaker 02

  Then I think, yeah, some people that, you know, you're, you're talking about where you're like, oh, that sounds not great.

• 1:20:01Ashley Hesseltine?

  That sounds nice. I feel like some people in this country like, don't quite understand what other countries do.

• 1:20:06Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 1:20:08Ashley Hesseltine?

  Like, we are doing it all wrong.

• 1:20:09Speaker 02

  Oh, it's so.

• 1:20:10Ashley Hesseltine?

  It's really sad.

• 1:20:12Speaker 02

  It's really sad.

• 1:20:13Ashley Hesseltine?

  Okay, well, let's just wrap up with a few boy problems. So you have a podcast called Boy Problems? And we asked our audience some of their boy problems, and we're just gonna have you weigh in on those. We marked some of our faves. Okay, the guy I'm hooking up with is elite at eating pussy, but so boring.

• 1:20:33Rayna Greenberg?

  Is the question, should I break up with him?

• 1:20:35Speaker 02

  Wait, we don't get any more details?

• 1:20:36Rayna Greenberg?

  No, that's the problem.

• 1:20:38Ashley Hesseltine?

  I think she's asking, like, do I?

• 1:20:40Speaker 02

  Oh, my God, that sounds great.

• 1:20:42Rayna Greenberg?

  Oh, I'm outside, I'm on the other side of the camp.

• 1:20:46Ashley Hesseltine?

  She likes it.

• 1:20:46Rayna Greenberg?

  Lately, I've had really good, I've had some really good experiences with it, and that's great.

• 1:20:51Speaker 02

  With boring guys?

• 1:20:52Rayna Greenberg?

  A boring guy? I just, I can't, you're gonna date a boring guy?

• 1:20:55Ashley Hesseltine?

  Oh, no, I'm talking about you don't love oral sex as much. You're speaking from that standpoint, are you not?

• 1:20:59Rayna Greenberg?

  No, I'm speaking from the standpoint of I just can't date a boring guy.

• 1:21:02Ashley Hesseltine?

  Oh, a boring guy, you are, okay.

• 1:21:03Speaker 02

  See, I'm trying to manifest a boring guy. I'm trying to manifest like a boring, kind, loyal man.

• 1:21:09Rayna Greenberg?

  I guess boring means something different to different people.

• 1:21:11Speaker 02

  It probably does, it probably does.

• 1:21:12Rayna Greenberg?

  Boring to me is off, off the table.

• 1:21:14Speaker 02

  Because I feel like I have sought out exciting men, or men who, like, I've confused those things.

• 1:21:21Ashley Hesseltine?

  But do you still want to be intellectually stimulated?

• 1:21:24Speaker 02

  I do, well, do I? I could do a pen, you know, I could do, I could read, you know, I got this, I got my girls, like...

• 1:21:36Rayna Greenberg?

  Yeah, but you gotta go home and talk to that person every day.

• 1:21:38Speaker 02

  You do, dumb is different than boring.

• 1:21:40Rayna Greenberg?

  And also, you're thinking stable, you're thinking committed, you're thinking predictable, those are boring, boring's not for me.

• 1:21:48Ashley Hesseltine?

  I don't know how old she is, I don't know what she's looking for. If you're just not trying to find a husband right now, and you're on the dating scene, let him keep eating your pussy.

• 1:21:56Rayna Greenberg?

  Yeah, just let him keep going down on you.

• 1:21:58Speaker 02

  That's what guys do all the time. Women have to let ourselves, like, just get laid, you know, because it makes you more happy, and then you can date more normally because you're not like, ew, we can have, you know, it is good to have a great, but boring guy eats you out.

• 1:22:11Ashley Hesseltine?

  Yeah, I dated this boring guy. The problem was like, I just had to get so drunk to hang out with him, like, it was that bad, and I was like, I actually can't, I like, lost my house keys, I was like, I'm still like, can't keep getting this drunk. Like, just bad, bad stuff kept happening because I was so drunk.

• 1:22:25Rayna Greenberg?

  You don't have a boring guy, you could, you would die.

• 1:22:27Ashley Hesseltine?

  I would never go down this road, I'm just saying. I've tried it, and I was like, I can't, too short, Trent.

• 1:22:34Rayna Greenberg?

  And, and...

• 1:22:37Ashley Hesseltine?

  If he lived close, it was so convenient. But I was like, I can't keep getting this drunk to sit through a dinner.

• 1:22:42Speaker 02

  And he would be, he would just have nothing to say?

• 1:22:45Ashley Hesseltine?

  Or he was Yeah, just, yeah, really kind of quiet, reserved, nothing much to say. Like, I would just get drunk and do all the talking. And then the sex was good randomly, but also I was blacked out.

• 1:22:53Rayna Greenberg?

  But if I will do a lot, if the sex is unbelievable, I can turn a blind eye to a lot.

• 1:22:57Speaker 02

  Me too.

• 1:22:58Rayna Greenberg?

  Not the blind eye.

• 1:22:58Speaker 02

  But boring, you can't, boring.

• 1:23:00Rayna Greenberg?

  No, I feel like insane sex. Like, I love that. That's great. That's important to me. But boring. And it is crazy to have somebody who's great in bed and boring in life. You don't find it a ton, but it does exist.

• 1:23:12Speaker 02

  How interesting.

• 1:23:13Rayna Greenberg?

  Okay, we have another one for you. Let's go through a couple. My husband works from home and respectfully, on my days off, I want to be home alone. And she says, I'm a registered nurse. So she is on her feet all day. She's working hard. I mean, it's a lot of like, physical manual labor that goes into her job. And I really feel for her because I love to be alone.

• 1:23:30Speaker 02

  Yeah. No, she, you gotta have rotations. You gotta, I mean, during the pandemic, I lived with someone, I mean,

• 1:23:37Ashley Hesseltine?

  Like a partner?

• 1:23:38Speaker 02

  Yeah, partner. And we would just kind of like, take turns, you know, a little bit. There was a good rotation. We never had to discuss it, but I think we each like, I'm gonna go out and do some calls at a coffee shop, you know, I'm gonna, and we, because if we were both inside for the whole day, morning to night, I mean, that's, no, you can't. So, so I would bring it up. I would be like, hey, there's this cute coworking system. We should get a membership or, you know, and you can say it in a nice, mean sandwich, like, I love you so much. I love that you get to work from home. On my days off, you know, I like some time alone. And why don't you go treat yourself to like a coffee? Here's five bucks.

• 1:24:13Ashley Hesseltine?

  You know, like, do something nice. He gets to be alone at the house. She doesn't.

• 1:24:17Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 1:24:17Ashley Hesseltine?

  Yes. Like, she's never, you're totally right. That's what it is. He's always alone at the house and enjoying that time. And she doesn't have it at all.

• 1:24:23Speaker 02

  Right.

• 1:24:23Rayna Greenberg?

  And I do think some people will be a little sensey when they first hear that, but that is a really valid ask. Of like, I would like to also be at the house sometimes with myself.

• 1:24:30Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:24:31Rayna Greenberg?

  Also eat my pussy.

• 1:24:32Speaker 02

  Okay. Eat my pussy.

• 1:24:34Ashley Hesseltine?

  He's really hot and women throw themselves at him and I feel insecure sometimes, which, I mean, this was talking about dating like that.

• 1:24:40Rayna Greenberg?

  So I, I think it depends on the man. I think it depends on the man.

• 1:24:43Speaker 02

  Okay, no, that's true. That's true. Yeah, how does he?

• 1:24:46Rayna Greenberg?

  Like I dated this guy who was so big. I mean, he's like six, four, covered in tattoos, beard, everybody. I mean, I, it was uncomfortable for me to like go to a bar with him because everybody looked at him and like stared at him when he threw. And he just ignored it and so it didn't bother me. But like, some guys, they acknowledge it. They like the attention. That's not, I just. It would have been really tough for me. I didn't even like it when he acted like no one was around. It still bothered me.

• 1:25:07Speaker 02

  No, if, if he's hot, it's fine. If he's hot and charming, we got a problem.

• 1:25:12Rayna Greenberg?

  Again, this guy wasn't charming.

• 1:25:13Ashley Hesseltine?

  No, no, no. Yeah, exactly.

• 1:25:14Rayna Greenberg?

  My guy wanted nothing to do with anybody else.

• 1:25:16Speaker 02

  Yes. I wanted a date with a hot guy recently who was that. Like, he's hot, but he like doesn't, he need, he doesn't seek out validation. And I was like, that's great. I love that. So, yeah.

• 1:25:26Ashley Hesseltine?

  And like, he doesn't know he's hot.

• 1:25:27Speaker 02

  Or he doesn't care he's hot. Like, he's not trying to get something out of, he doesn't need, I mean, it's validation. Does he need validation?

• 1:25:34Ashley Hesseltine?

  Yeah.

• 1:25:34Speaker 02

  Cause men who need validation are either exhausting or will ruin your life. I mean, yeah, women, yeah, women are allowed. Like, women are allowed.

• 1:25:42Ashley Hesseltine?

  My husband is hot, but I feel like he doesn't even know it. It's such a dream.

• 1:25:45Rayna Greenberg?

  He also like has no interest in other people besides you.

• 1:25:48Ashley Hesseltine?

  No, he looks, like, if someone would have the audacity to flirt with him, he would be like mad about it. He'd be like, how dare you speak to me? You know, I'm Ashley's husband. Like, I just, he's the perfect guy. That's why I had to get someone that wasn't here and bring him, bring him here.

• 1:26:01Speaker 02

  How did you meet him in Boston? You were there?

• 1:26:03Ashley Hesseltine?

  It was at a show.

• 1:26:04Speaker 02

  He came to your show?

• 1:26:06Ashley Hesseltine?

  Yeah, he was a fan. It's like a Taylor Swift Travis Kelsey.

• 1:26:10Speaker 02

  It is. It is.

• 1:26:12Ashley Hesseltine?

  He had friendship bracelets.

• 1:26:13Speaker 02

  Pipeline.

• 1:26:14Ashley Hesseltine?

  Ashley Kelsey. Fan to lover.

• 1:26:17Speaker 02

  Find a fan. Find yourself a fan.

• 1:26:19Ashley Hesseltine?

  I can't recommend it enough.

• 1:26:21Speaker 02

  Truly.

• 1:26:21Ashley Hesseltine?

  Marry your biggest fan.

• 1:26:22Speaker 02

  Marry your biggest fan. And you don't have to be publicly, a public person.

• 1:26:26Ashley Hesseltine?

  If he's not, it's creepy. Yeah.

• 1:26:27Speaker 02

  No.

• 1:26:27Ashley Hesseltine?

  I think I probably have a bigger fan than Sean, that one guy that gave me the whole room key and all that.

• 1:26:32Speaker 02

  Well, that was a stalker. It's not a fan. That's a stalker. Yeah, don't marry your stalker. Fan and stalker is different.

• 1:26:37Rayna Greenberg?

  Okay, I have a question for you, right? My fiance is insistent that I change my last name, but I love my name.

• 1:26:43Ashley Hesseltine?

  Eh, no.

• 1:26:45Speaker 02

  What?

• 1:26:45Rayna Greenberg?

  What's the difference?

• 1:26:46Speaker 02

  What's his, it's none of his business. It's your name.

• 1:26:49Ashley Hesseltine?

  I know.

• 1:26:49Speaker 02

  None of his business.

• 1:26:50Ashley Hesseltine?

  If she really wants to stay with this guy, he needs to work this out in therapy. Like, he needs to realize where this is coming from. His parents are probably telling him, that's crazy, she won't change her name. Like, he's getting it from all angles. He can't imagine it otherwise. If you're gonna have kids, they're gonna have the same last name. Like, he needs to work through this patriarchal shit on his own.

• 1:27:07Speaker 02

  Yeah, it's not yours.

• 1:27:09Ashley Hesseltine?

  Cause this is like the first of other things that will come up.

• 1:27:12Speaker 02

  A hundred percent.

• 1:27:13Ashley Hesseltine?

  So, it is a red flag, but he can maybe work through this with the help of Liz. You should speak to him.

• 1:27:19Speaker 02

  Yeah, he can read the book. I mean, or, or again, I-

• 1:27:22Rayna Greenberg?

  He's like, don't DM me.

• 1:27:23Speaker 02

  And you don't even have to like, say, it's really patriarchal and you're saying, cause then he'll just get in defensive mode.

• 1:27:29Ashley Hesseltine?

  Yeah, I wasn't suggesting that.

• 1:27:30Speaker 02

  You just say, no, no, no, but, but I, I think, just make it about you. Like, oh, I really like my name. And also, you don't even have to really overplay it.

• 1:27:36Rayna Greenberg?

  Why is what you want, why does that supersede what I want? Like, why?

• 1:27:39Speaker 02

  And it doesn't, but she gets to, but she gets to decide.

• 1:27:41Ashley Hesseltine?

  But I think he's gonna go down the road of like, but this is what's done.

• 1:27:45Speaker 02

  Sure, but he gets to have those feelings, but she gets, she, but she needs to decide for herself. And it's not a group decision. I mean, it's just not. And, and I think sometimes women, you know, we are only okay with the decision if the guy agrees to it. And it's like, you actually don't get a, it's not, it's, yeah, it's not a focus group. You know, it's, it's like, I, I understand that you have different feelings about it and you would like something different, but like, it's, it's, I'm not gonna do that. And, and if you, you know, have issues around it, yeah, like, let's talk through how you're going to deal with it. But like, I, I really think it's like, she needs to-

• 1:28:19Ashley Hesseltine?

  Totally.

• 1:28:19Rayna Greenberg?

  I like that language too. I, I am not going to do this, but we can talk about how you are gonna deal with that in a kind way. Here's what I think she should do.

• 1:28:27Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:28:28Ashley Hesseltine?

  Tell him.

• 1:28:29Rayna Greenberg?

  Tell him to change his name.

• 1:28:29Speaker 02

  Yeah, tell him to change his name.

• 1:28:31Ashley Hesseltine?

  And then he'll be like, what are you saying? And she could be like, here's all these examples. Kay Strino did it.

• 1:28:35Rayna Greenberg?

  Yeah.

• 1:28:35Speaker 02

  Here's all these, if he thinks that's crazy, then, then I think it's crazy.

• 1:28:38Rayna Greenberg?

  It's the same thing.

• 1:28:39Ashley Hesseltine?

  But are you guys hearing my strategy? Do that, be dead ass, serious about it, and then he will agree on just keeping your own.

• 1:28:46Speaker 02

  Yes, yes. You're changing the anchor. You're making, you're changing the overtone window.

• 1:28:50Ashley Hesseltine?

  Exactly.

• 1:28:51Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:28:51Ashley Hesseltine?

  Like with your parents, like when you would like, they'd think you did the bad thing and you only did the kind of bad thing and then you didn't get in trouble.

• 1:28:57Speaker 02

  Right, right. You're like, I could have been taking ecstasy, but I only smoked pot. Yeah.

• 1:29:01Ashley Hesseltine?

  Totally.

• 1:29:02Speaker 02

  Okay, okay.

• 1:29:02Rayna Greenberg?

  If he's like, also, he's like, that's crazy. You can be like, imagine how I feel.

• 1:29:06Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:29:09Speaker 02

  End of conversation.

• 1:29:10Ashley Hesseltine?

  No, like, our kids can have my last name. This isn't illegal. People do it.

• 1:29:13Rayna Greenberg?

  Also, I have to make the kids.

• 1:29:15Speaker 02

  And also, there's this new law now where like, you, women can't vote anymore. Like, stop it. Stop it. Shut the fuck up. Like, like, a rapist is president. Sorry.

• 1:29:26Ashley Hesseltine?

  A hundred percent. Rapist pedo, we like to say.

• 1:29:28Speaker 02

  A rapist pedo, like, are running the world, like, you're really gonna fucking, sorry, this is where I'm like, I love men, but like, don't, don't.

• 1:29:35Rayna Greenberg?

  Son of a man.

• 1:29:36Speaker 02

  No. Like, come on, dude. Come on, dude.

• 1:29:38Rayna Greenberg?

  Do you want more of this?

• 1:29:39Speaker 02

  Yeah. So like.

• 1:29:43Rayna Greenberg?

  This one, listen.

• 1:29:44Speaker 02

  This is women and men's field, and I know you're gonna read this.

• 1:29:47Ashley Hesseltine?

  If a man said it, it would be problematic, but whatever, that's not how it works.

• 1:29:50Speaker 02

  It's not. It's different.

• 1:29:51Ashley Hesseltine?

  In a patriarchy, okay. He comes over after 10:00 PM and doesn't put out. Why are you taking up space?

• 1:29:56Rayna Greenberg?

  He wants to be near you.

• 1:29:58Speaker 02

  Wait, he just comes over at 10 to cuddle?

• 1:30:00Rayna Greenberg?

  Also, why 10:00 PM? That's what, I don't like you showing up so late.

• 1:30:03Ashley Hesseltine?

  I'm saying that's her point. She's like, why are you coming over at 10? Like, 10 is booty call time.

• 1:30:07Rayna Greenberg?

  Like, spend the evening with me. Let's spend some time together. Like, I don't, well, you know, every time I've sexed with somebody at my house, I kick them out. I don't want you to stick here.

• 1:30:14Speaker 02

  Yeah, I don't.

• 1:30:15Ashley Hesseltine?

  But this, it's the time. It's like, 10:00 PM. Like, if you, if you're here, I would like to hook up. If you're not, I wanna watch Love is Blind Alone.

• 1:30:26Speaker 02

  Like, what's going on? Why? Does he need a bed?

• 1:30:28Rayna Greenberg?

  10:00 PM. Why are you?

• 1:30:30Speaker 02

  Crazy.

• 1:30:30Rayna Greenberg?

  No, this is normal for you to be like, 10, well, I'll sit in LA. 7:00 PM is my bedtime.

• 1:30:35Speaker 02

  7:00 PM is your bedtime. 10 is like 2:00 AM.

• 1:30:37Ashley Hesseltine?

  I think he has a family and he's coming over after his kids go to bed.

• 1:30:40Speaker 02

  No, some things go, I mean, again, just say.

• 1:30:43Ashley Hesseltine?

  He's dating me and Liz.

• 1:30:44Speaker 02

  What's, can we, why can't we have sex? Just say it.

• 1:30:46Ashley Hesseltine?

  Yeah, or can you come over, can we go to dinner?

• 1:30:49Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:30:49Ashley Hesseltine?

  Can you put out?

• 1:30:50Speaker 02

  I'm confused.

• 1:30:51Ashley Hesseltine?

  Free meal out of this?

• 1:30:51Rayna Greenberg?

  Why aren't you putting out?

• 1:30:52Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:30:53Rayna Greenberg?

  Can I just get some finger stuff?

• 1:30:54Speaker 02

  Yeah. Yeah, just go eat me out.

• 1:30:57Ashley Hesseltine?

  Yeah. It's the same guy, the boring guy.

• 1:30:59Speaker 02

  Right. That's weird.

• 1:31:02Ashley Hesseltine?

  Yeah, we'll get more info.

• 1:31:03Speaker 02

  I get really, and women, we feel rejected when guys don't want to sleep with us. I feel like we like, because guys are horn dogs. So you're like, why aren't you being a horn dog?

• 1:31:10Ashley Hesseltine?

  There's nothing worse.

• 1:31:11Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:31:12Ashley Hesseltine?

  And I mean, they have their own shit going on, you know?

• 1:31:14Speaker 02

  They do, they do. They're expected always, but, but at 10:00 PM. It's, those are the rules.

• 1:31:19Ashley Hesseltine?

  Why are you here?

• 1:31:19Speaker 02

  That's the law, yeah.

• 1:31:21Rayna Greenberg?

  I'm watching my shows, I'm going to sleep.

• 1:31:22Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:31:23Ashley Hesseltine?

  Yeah.

• 1:31:23Rayna Greenberg?

  All right, well, Liz, you're amazing. I feel like you're a good friend.

• 1:31:26Speaker 02

  This was so fun. You guys are so fun. I love this.

• 1:31:29Rayna Greenberg?

  We, we just know every reason why, like, find you. So can you drop your Instagram handle?

• 1:31:32Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 1:31:33Rayna Greenberg?

  Podcast, anything else?

• 1:31:33Speaker 02

  I, my, uh, my podcast is Boy Problems. You can watch it anywhere on Spotify, YouTube. My YouTube channel is Liz Plank, I'm trying to grow it. So it really means a lot if you follow me there. And then Feminist Tabulous on Instagram. I'm Liz Plank on TikTok. I'm trying to be a streamer. I'm manifesting, because it's like a boy corner and I'm like, like, I want women to be owning that space. And so I'm trying to do Twitch too, so I'm Liz Plank on Twitch. What else am I doing? Oh, I have a movie coming out. It's called Not So Special. It's about disability rights and I wore the merch. So yeah, we're premiering us out by Southwest in March. And yeah, those are the things, uh, those are the things, right?

• 1:32:14Ashley Hesseltine?

  Okay, that's perfect.

• 1:32:14Speaker 02

  A top sack, I have a top sack.

• 1:32:16Ashley Hesseltine?

  Okay, great. Okay.

• 1:32:17Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:32:18Ashley Hesseltine?

  Well, you guys know where to find us, girlsgottaeat.com. Get the tickets to our Netflix as a Joke Festival show.

• 1:32:23Speaker 02

  Whoa, you're Netflix as a Joke, that's cool. Congrats. In LA, is it, is it coming up?

• 1:32:28Ashley Hesseltine?

  May 7.

• 1:32:28Speaker 02

  Oh, my God, I want to come.

• 1:32:29Ashley Hesseltine?

  Okay, Liz will be there, you guys. Get tickets. Girls Gotta Eat Podcast on Instagram and TikTok. I'm Ash Hess, Reina is Rayna greenberg. Subscribe on YouTube, share this episode with a friend and we will see you Thursday.

• 1:32:38Rayna Greenberg?

  Have a good week, guys.