Lee Strobel: Possession, Miracles, Visions, and Encounters With Angels & Demons

There’s a lot that science can’t explain, including most of what actually matters. Lee Strobel on the overwhelming evidence that the supernatural world is entirely real. (00:00) Introduction (03:02) Strobel’s Encounter With an Angel (11:30) Do We Have a Guardian Angel? (25:31) What Are Demons? (40:03) Why Did the Pharisees Hate When Jesus Performed Miracles? (59:59) The Mystical Dream Phenomenon Happening in the Middle East (1:09:42) Visions, Psychoactive Drugs, and Hallucinations Paid partnerships with: Dutch: Get $50 a year for vet care with Tucker50 at https://dutch.com/tucker Pique: Go to https://piquelife.com/tucker to get up to 20% off for life when you start your first month TCN: Watch the full series as soon as it premieres: tuckercarlson.com/the911file Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:01Speaker 00

  Now for a quick message from Anthropic, the team behind Claude, the AI built for businesses. Customers count on their bank and banks count on their most important systems. Now those systems count on Claude and nine of the Fortune 10 companies use it for critical work. See why leading companies trust Claude at claude.ai/span.

• 0:25Tucker Carlson?

  So we're told there's no state religion in the West, certainly not in the United States, but in fact, there is. It's scientism. It's the worship of science. It's the belief, and all of us learned this at a young age, that everything around us, everything we experience can be measured by people in white coats. That's science. If it can't be measured, it's not real. The problem with this religion is that our life, our daily experience, contradicts it constantly. All of us are seeing, hearing, tasting, feeling things that can't be measured by science, but it doesn't make them any less real. These are by definition supernatural. Supernatural experiences are a feature

• 1:07Tucker Carlson?

  of everyone's life. And if we're honest, we'll admit that. So what do they mean exactly? Well, Lee Strobel was a reporter. He worked for the Chicago Tribune and left and became a pastor. So he has religious faith, but also a grounding in empiricism, the desire to prove things. He is the perfect person to write the book that he did about the supernatural. That would be dreams, mystical dreams, near-death experiences, miracles, ghosts. We sent out them to hear just how common these experiences are and what they mean.

• 2:06Tucker Carlson?

  Lee Strobel. So you've written a book. I don't do a lot of book interviews, but I couldn't resist this one. Seeing the Supernatural: Investigating Angels, Demons, Mystical Dreams, Near-Death Encounters, and Other Mysteries of the Unseen World.

• 2:21Speaker 02

  Right.

• 2:23Tucker Carlson?

  I think a lot of us sense, or know on some level, in fact, I think everybody knows on some level, that there is a world that science can't measure or quantify.

• 2:32Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:33Tucker Carlson?

  That there is, you know, that there's stuff that we can't explain.

• 2:37Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:38Tucker Carlson?

  But that it's no less real for our inability to explain it. So let's, let's go through the list.

• 2:42Speaker 02

  Yeah. You know, by the way, I, I was an atheist. I'm trained in journalism and law. And so I'm always looking for corroboration.

• 2:49Tucker Carlson?

  Yeah.

• 2:50Speaker 02

  I'm looking for evidence. I'm looking for facts. And so you're right. I think there's an intuitive sense that most people have that there's something beyond what we can see, touch, or put in a test tube.

• 2:58Tucker Carlson?

  Of course.

• 2:58Speaker 02

  Eight out of 10 Americans believe that. But how do we know? What, what is the evidence? And that's what I try to get into in the book. How can we be sure, through corroborated evidence, that indeed there are such things as miracles, as near-death experiences, as deathbed encounters, and mystical dreams, and things like that?

• 3:17Tucker Carlson?

  Yeah, atheism is the, is the leap of imagination.

• 3:20Speaker 02

  It is. That's true.

• 3:22Tucker Carlson?

  It's hard to be an atheist.

• 3:23Speaker 02

  It's very true.

• 3:24Tucker Carlson?

  I admire them in a way, though. Feel sorry for them. But anyway, okay. Angels.

• 3:28Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 3:29Tucker Carlson?

  What's an angel?

• 3:30Speaker 02

  Fascinating. You know, angels are created by God before humankind was created. They are spirit beings. So they have, they're not omniscient like God is. They're not omnipresent like God is. They are, they don't age because there's no physical body. They don't marry because there's no physical body. They, they're very intelligent, very smart. And they are, according to the Bible, they are to serve not only God, but also His people. And what's interesting-

• 4:00Tucker Carlson?

  The Christian Bible-

• 4:02Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 4:03Tucker Carlson?

  With the Hebrew Old Testament-

• 4:05Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 4:06Tucker Carlson?

  Makes reference to these. Is there any culture in the world that doesn't believe in some form of angel?

• 4:12Speaker 02

  It's pretty universal. Yeah. It is pretty universal.

• 4:15Tucker Carlson?

  Like every culture?

• 4:16Speaker 02

  Yeah, just virtually every culture.

• 4:17Tucker Carlson?

  Yeah, the Inuit, all the way to the Maya-

• 4:19Speaker 02

  That's right. That's right.

• 4:20Tucker Carlson?

  Canaanites, yeah.

• 4:21Speaker 02

  And what's interesting about the Christian interpretation of angels is that it says in the Book of Hebrews in the Bible that we should anticipate the possibility that we would encounter an angel. In other words, it says sometimes when you're providing hospitality to someone, unbeknownst to you, it's an angel. And so there's an anticipation that perhaps there could be angelic encounters. And so what I tried to look at in the book are cases in which we have angelic encounters, people actually encounter an angel. I'll give you an example. There was a missionary named John G. Paton, P-A-T-O-N, from Scotland, and he went to an island in the South Pacific to be a Christian missionary.

• 5:02Speaker 02

  And he and his wife were living in a cottage there, and he's talking about Jesus. Well, the local tribespeople didn't quite like that. And so one day, a mob of them came to burn down their house and kill them. So they see this mob forming, and he and his wife are in their house, and what can they do? They start to pray. Say, "God, protect us, help us. They're gonna kill us, they're gonna burn our house down. What do we do?" And they prayed all night long. And by dawn, the mob began to dissipate. A year later, he led the head of that mob to faith in Jesus Christ. And they're having a conversation, and John said to them, "By the way, do you remember that day when you all came to burn down our house and kill us? Why didn't you do it?"

• 5:47Speaker 02

  And the man said, "Well, who are all those men you had there?" He said, "I don't know, men. It was just my wife and I." He said, "No, no, no. Your house was surrounded by these muscular men in white garments with drawn swords. There's no way we could have hurt you that night."

• 6:04Speaker 02

  Well, what's the explanation for that? I think it could very well have been an angelic encounter, that God had sent angels to protect him. And there's multiple numbers of cases like that.

• 6:17Tucker Carlson?

  Give me another.

• 6:18Speaker 02

  Well, I had an encounter myself when I was 12 years old. I was, it was the only dream I remember as a child, it was more of a vision than a dream. An angel appeared to me and started extolling heaven. How beautiful and wonderful heaven is. And, and I looked at him kind of offhandedly and said, well, you know, I'm gonna go there someday. And he looked at me, he said, "How do you know?" And I was shocked by that, "How do I know?" And I started to kind of stumble around to justify, my goodness. I said, "Well, I obey my parents pretty much, and I get good grades in school, and my friends like me, and I'm trying to justify why I would get into heaven." And he looked at me and he said, "That doesn't matter." And this chill went through my spine, "How can this not matter?"

• 7:03Speaker 02

  And, and he said, "Someday you'll understand." And then disappeared. Well, I kind of wrote it off as being a bad pizza, and ultimately became an atheist. But 16 years later, as an atheist, my wife brought me to a church. And I heard the gospel for the first time. That salvation, that the doors of heaven are not flung open based on how nice you are to your parents, or how good grades you get in school. It's based on the grace of God. It's not something we earn, it's a free gift of God's grace. And I heard that message for the first time, and my mind flashed back to that dream. And I thought, "Wait a minute. That's what he was trying to tell me back then."

• 7:42Tucker Carlson?

  Had you thought a lot about that dream in the subsequent years?

• 7:44Speaker 02

  It would come to me every once in a while, I'd think about it, I'd just suppress it, "Ah, well, it was a bad pizza," you know. But then I thought, "There's two forms of corroboration there." Number one, that angel told me something when I was 12 years old, that I did not already know, that salvation is by grace. And secondly, he made a prophecy, a prediction, that someday I would understand, that came true 16 years later. I think that may have been an angelic encounter that I had. I can't prove it, but that corroboration tells me maybe it really was. So, we see cases like this around the world, and there's more than 200 references of angels in the Bible. There's not-

• 8:24Tucker Carlson?

  200?

• 8:25Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah. So, lots of evidence that indeed, this is part of God's creation.

• 8:30Tucker Carlson?

  Interesting. I've been to church. I don't know that I've, probably the wrong kind of church, but I don't know that I've ever heard anyone refer to an angel in church.

• 8:37Speaker 02

  It's so funny you say that, because I was giving a talk the other day, and I said, "You know, I've been a Christian now since November the 8th of 1981. I have never heard a sermon on the topic of angels. Ever. Ever."

• 8:48Tucker Carlson?

  Why?

• 8:48Speaker 02

  I don't know. And I go, and so in this book, I delve into it, and I learn some new things. For instance, do we have a guardian angel? Well, there's actually two passages in the Bible that suggest maybe we do have a guardian angel. In one passage, Jesus is talking to a group, and there's some children there, and he said, "Do not despise these little ones, because their angels see the face of God every day in heaven." Well, who are their angels? And then, secondly, Peter, when he escapes from prison, goes to a home where some Christians had gathered, and he knocks on the door. And the servant says, "Who's there?" And he says, "Peter." And she recognizes his voice, and she calls out to the other people, and says, "Hey, Peter's here."

• 9:27Speaker 02

  "What's it? Can't be here. He's in prison. Peter can't be here. It must be his angel." So, based on those two passages, there are Christians who believe that we have an angel assigned to us. In fact, in, I believe in the Orthodox Christian tradition, they believe an angel is assigned to you at the time you're baptized. I don't know there are Christians who deny that, but it could be. But the other thing I learned in my investigation of angels, I thought, "You know what? I don't think it's appropriate to pray to angels. I don't believe we're taught to do that. I think there's a slippery slope if you pray to angels, that it might slip into worship of angels, which would be blasphemous. But, there's

• 10:10Speaker 02

  nothing wrong with praying to God about angels. Martin Luther, in the Small Catechism, has a prayer, an evening prayer, that says, "Lord, send your holy angels to protect me from the evil one." And so I, I never used to do this, but I now make part of my prayer that God would send angels to protect me and my family, my ministry, my grandchildren. And so I think that's totally appropriate to do.

• 10:37Tucker Carlson?

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• 14:00Tucker Carlson?

  We're going to get to demons in a second, but you use the phrase, "the evil one."

• 14:06Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 14:06Tucker Carlson?

  So, you know, the foundational Christian prayer is what we call the Lord's Prayer, handed down by Jesus Himself.

• 14:13Speaker 02

  Right.

• 14:15Tucker Carlson?

  And at the end of it, after, you know, we seek forgiveness and forgive those who've sinned against us, "Lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil," is the way that most, I think, Americans learn the prayer.

• 14:27Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 14:27Tucker Carlson?

  But there's another interpretation that says delivers from the evil one.

• 14:30Speaker 02

  That's right, yeah.

• 14:32Tucker Carlson?

  And I didn't know that until later in life, but I suspect that that was kind of toned down because the evil one is a little bit too supernatural?

• 14:42Speaker 02

  Yeah. Well, you know, there is an embarrassment in American culture towards some of these supernatural phenomena. In other words, American Christians often want to be accepted and seen as normal by their neighbors. "Oh, yes, I go to church, and yes, I..." Believe in Jesus, but you know, you won't catch me talking about angels or demons or miracles or any of this weird stuff. They want to be accepted as being normal by other people. And so I think there's a lot of people that just don't delve into

• 15:09Tucker Carlson?

  There's a de-emphasis.

• 15:10Speaker 02

  There's a de-emphasis in many churches and in many Christian lives. And yet, Jesus clearly believed not only in angels, but he was an exorcist. You know, even skeptics will admit, according to the gospels, that Jesus was an exorcist. So he believed in Satan. He believed in demons.

• 15:27Tucker Carlson?

  Well, it was one of the primary activities of his

• 15:29Speaker 02

  Exactly.

• 15:30Tucker Carlson?

  Life on earth.

• 15:30Speaker 02

  Exactly. Look at the gospel of Mark. I think a half of his activity is related in some way to fighting demons. So this is something as a Christian that we ought to believe. And then consider what are the implications of this? If this is true, if there is a demonic realm, if there is an angelic realm, what are the implications to me today?

• 15:51Tucker Carlson?

  Well, I would put it in another way. Has there, are you aware of any society in the known history of the human race that didn't believe

• 16:03Speaker 02

  Right.

• 16:03Tucker Carlson?

  That there was a supernatural realm

• 16:06Speaker 02

  Exactly.

• 16:06Tucker Carlson?

  With good and evil?

• 16:07Speaker 02

  Yes, virtually universal.

• 16:09Tucker Carlson?

  Yeah, I've never heard of any culture that didn't believe that.

• 16:12Speaker 02

  Yeah, I haven't either.

• 16:13Tucker Carlson?

  Except post-war West.

• 16:14Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 16:14Tucker Carlson?

  Drop the atom bomb, get rid of the supernatural.

• 16:17Speaker 02

  Right.

• 16:17Tucker Carlson?

  Because we're God now.

• 16:18Speaker 02

  Yeah, that's right.

• 16:19Tucker Carlson?

  But before then, I mean, I just think this was taken as a matter of course, right?

• 16:23Speaker 02

  Of course, yeah, naturally.

• 16:24Tucker Carlson?

  So if every society in known history reaches the same, a version of the same conclusion.

• 16:30Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 16:31Tucker Carlson?

  It suggests maybe there's something there?

• 16:32Speaker 02

  It sure does. It sure does.

• 16:34Tucker Carlson?

  Why would you come up with that?

• 16:36Speaker 02

  Exactly. You know, it's funny. People will say, well, you need extraordinary evidence to prove an extraordinary claim.

• 16:43Tucker Carlson?

  Mm-hmm.

• 16:44Speaker 02

  Which I don't think is legitimate. I don't think that stands up to scrutiny. But let's take it for a moment on face value and say, you need extraordinary evidence to prove an extraordinary claim. Well, the claim that there are demons is not an extraordinary claim.

• 16:56Tucker Carlson?

  I was just thinking that.

• 16:57Speaker 02

  Because 95% of humanity through history has believed in it. So if you're an atheist, the onus is on you. You must present the extraordinary evidence that the demonic does not exist.

• 17:09Tucker Carlson?

  Well, there are also moments in the life of every person who's awake and not on fentanyl, maybe even people who are on fentanyl, I hope, where you know that you are being acted on by an outside force of some kind, and you have no idea what it is.

• 17:21Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 17:21Tucker Carlson?

  But there are moments when you are much better than yourself, much more empathetic. And there are other moments where you're seized by the desire to destroy for the sake of destruction, which is also, doesn't make any sense. There's no kind of evolutionary biological accounting for that. Why would you want to destroy something for no reason? Another person, an object, but the impulse to destroy, clearly the hallmark of evil, right?

• 17:46Speaker 02

  It is, and it's consistent with the Christian teaching that the demonic realm exists, that it is intent on luring us away from Him, and luring us down a pathway that is dark and that is dangerous.

• 17:59Tucker Carlson?

  But people feel that. You don't have to be a Christian to have felt that. If you're honest with yourself, there are moments where you're like, why did I do that?

• 18:07Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah. And yet, we do have cases where we have evidence that there is a demonic realm.

• 18:15Tucker Carlson?

  All right. So let's go, let me ask you one last angel question, because I'm trying to faithfully go in order based on, because you can judge a book by its cover, I've decided. So you said that angels in the New Testament, and perhaps also in the Old, but it, angels are described as present in our world. We will mistake angels for people.

• 18:40Speaker 02

  Very well. That's right. That's predicted.

• 18:42Tucker Carlson?

  So, do you think that happens?

• 18:45Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 18:45Tucker Carlson?

  And if so, can you give us an example? And what would be the purpose of that?

• 18:49Speaker 02

  Yeah, you know, it's interesting. In Hebrew, in the book of Hebrews, it says that we will do it unbeknownst to ourselves. So in other words, the implication is that we will have angelic encounters, but we won't realize they're angels. And I think that does happen. Now, I have a couple of cases in my book. One is a pastor who is driving his car in Ohio. He loses control of the car. He hits a telephone, or an electric transformer kind of a pole type of thing. The wires fall down on his car. The doors are jammed shut. The electricity is coursing through the car, so much so that the windshield starts to

• 19:28Speaker 02

  melt, and he's trapped in this car. He doesn't know what to do. And he begins to pray, God, I'm stuck. I don't know what to do. And a man, scruffy kind of guy, comes walking up to the car. And he opens the car, whose doors were jammed. He opens the door, he reaches in, he lifts out this pastor and takes him about 50 yards away from the car, which then explodes. And he says to the pastor, he says, "You're gonna be okay. You're okay now, but the police are on their way and I can't be here when they get here. So you just know that you're okay." And he walked away and disappeared.

• 20:10Speaker 02

  Now, the people, the medics who came, the emergency technicians and so forth that came as a result of the accident, and they look at the cars, they can't explain how this is possible, that somebody could have opened that car door and not been electrocuted and rescued this pastor. And yet, it happened. And the pastor says, "I believe it was an angel." Well, maybe, could have been. How do you prove something like that? But I mean, how do you explain it away naturally? How do you explain it away that he's able to come, grip the car door, and open up this car that had been jammed shut? So I think, yeah, there are cases where I think the logical explanation,

• 20:52Speaker 02

  the most reasonable explanation, if you don't rule out the supernatural at the outset, is that it was an angelic encounter.

• 20:59Tucker Carlson?

  Amazing. Amazing. But there are probably more subtle experiences too.

• 21:07Speaker 02

  Yes, no doubt.

• 21:09Tucker Carlson?

  Where you learn something, you encounter somebody out of nowhere, who tells you something, or who tests your compassion?

• 21:17Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, could very well be. And even the incident I had, that seemed to, as an atheist, so here I am in this church, nearly 30 years old, hearing this, understanding the gospel anyway, for the first time, and that encounter I had with an angel is something that helped open my heart to the truth of the gospel.

• 21:37Tucker Carlson?

  Amazing.

• 21:38Speaker 02

  Of course, I had to spend two years of my life investigating it from a, you know, to just kind of conclude that it really was true, but it did propel me down that road toward God.

• 21:50Tucker Carlson?

  What are demons?

• 21:52Speaker 02

  Demons are fallen angels. The Bible, the Bible is, is a little bit vague on this, but apparently what happened, there was a

• 21:59Tucker Carlson?

  Kind of funny, if I could just pause, this is my totally ignorant read of it.

• 22:03Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 22:04Tucker Carlson?

  But when the supernatural host, you know, all these supernatural beings are referred to in the Bible, there's almost a sense in which the, the writer is assuming the reader already knows all this.

• 22:16Speaker 02

  Yes, that's right. It doesn't, it doesn't have a passage that says, by the way,

• 22:20Tucker Carlson?

  Right, these things are real.

• 22:22Speaker 02

  Let me explain all this to you. It doesn't do that, which is interesting.

• 22:27Tucker Carlson?

  Because the, I mean, the, the culture at the time was familiar with this and there was like kind of no debate that there was a supernatural.

• 22:35Speaker 02

  It's sort of like the soul. I have a chapter in the book on the existence of the soul. And, um, cause a lot of, um, scientists today will deny that the soul exists. Um, the Bible doesn't say, by the way, you have a soul and here's, let me define it for you. It presumes that we have a soul.

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• 24:50Tucker Carlson?

  By the way, anyone who denies the soul exists, probably getting ready to genocide you.

• 24:57Speaker 02

  It's like, kind of a soulless experience.

• 25:00Tucker Carlson?

  Well, if there's no human soul, then how is murder wrong?

• 25:03Speaker 02

  Well, exactly. And they'll say free will is impossible, so there is no free will. Uh, yeah, it's crazy. It's crazy. But demons, uh, it started out with Lucifer, um, whose name means morning star, and he was kind of first among angels.

• 25:17Tucker Carlson?

  Name means morning star?

• 25:18Speaker 02

  Yeah, Lucifer. Um, he becomes Satan, which, and the name Satan literally means adversary. Uh, and so, the implication of scripture is that this, this very prominent angel named Lucifer wanted to be worshipped. He's the one who wanted the worship. And so, it, his pride is what resulted in him falling from the angelic realm, um, becoming Satan, becoming someone, and you think about this, when Jesus encounters Satan, what is it Satan wanted from him? Worship. Satan, Satan wanted Jesus to worship him. And that's what Lucifer wanted. He, it was pride that got in the way. He becomes Satan, and a certain percentage of the angels accompanied him in this fall.

• 26:02Speaker 02

  This happened before the fall of humankind in the Garden of Eden, so this predates that. Um, we don't know how many angels accompanied him, but there are a lot of angels. In, in Revelation, chapter five, there's a scene of Jesus on the throne being worshiped. And if you do the math, because it, it talks about it a little cryptically. It was 100 million angels worshiping him at that time. So there's a lot of angels and a percentage of them fell with Lucifer. He became Satan and angels became his minions, so to speak. Now Satan is limited in his power. He's not omniscient like God is. He's not omnipresent like God is.

• 26:43Speaker 02

  In other words, a guy was telling me, he said, there's probably never a time when you and Satan have both been in the same zip code. Because he's only in one place at a time. And so he's got things he's doing. He probably never been in the same zip code you have. But his demons probably have been. And they carry out his will, which is to pull people away from God, to discourage people in finding God and to drag as many people to hell with him as they can. Now, his existence, he's sort of on a leash by God at this point. His ultimate destination in the lake of fire is already predicted.

• 27:23Speaker 02

  So he has no future really, but he has influence and he has certain powers. And he and the demons are very intuitive. You'll think they know more than they know and they go after people. I tell the story in my, in my book about a very prominent psychiatrist named Richard Gallagher, educated Ivy League university. I have a quote from the former president of the American Psychiatric Association, calling him highest integrity, totally trained and prominent in his field of psychiatry. Of course, he's a medical doctor because he's a psychiatrist, just extolling him as

• 28:07Speaker 02

  an individual and as a scientist, as a psychiatrist. And about 25 years ago, he had two cats and they got along great. They slept together, they played together, everything was fine until one night, the cats started to attack each other viciously. I mean, they're trying to kill each other. They're clawing each other, they're snarling each other, they're biting each other. It was, it was unbelievable and they pulled them apart and put them into separate rooms and thought, what in the world was that all about? At 9:00 AM the next day, the doorbell rings. And it was a preset appointment. A Catholic priest was bringing by a woman to be examined by Dr. Gallagher. She claimed that she was a high priestess of a satanic cult. And he wanted her to be examined. Was she demonically possessed?

• 28:52Speaker 02

  Was she just crazy? Or what is this all about? So at 9:00 AM, the doorbell rings for his appointment. And Dr. Gallagher opens the door. And here's this woman who claims to be a high priestess of a satanic cult, who kind of looks up at him and sneers at him and says, "So, how'd you like those cats last night?" Oof, yeah. There's something going on. And that took him on a journey where he, as a psychiatrist, who understands what mental illness is and understands, comes to understand what demon possession and demon oppression is like. He spends the next 25 years as kind of the go-to guy

• 29:33Speaker 02

  in the medical realm for exorcists of the Catholic faith. And has witnessed amazing things that he documents. And I quote him in the book, cases where we have a woman who, in front of eight eyewitnesses, levitates off a bed for 30 minutes. Another case where people are speaking in Latin and other languages that they don't know. Where they spontaneously are bruised and clawed. Where one petite woman picked up a 200-pound Lutheran deacon and threw him across a room. I mean, these are things, as he said, they go beyond psychiatry. He believes these are actual demonic possessions.

• 30:18Speaker 02

  Now, a true Christian cannot be demonically possessed. And the reason is, a true Christian is indwelled by the Holy Spirit. And you can't be indwelled by evil and good like that in the same way at the same time. So Christians cannot be possessed, but they can be oppressed. They can be hectored. They can be bothered. They can be attacked by demons. And there are some amazing examples of that. And I just mentioned a couple. Of people who are hectored or bothered by demons. Now, for Christians, the book of James says to, if you rebuke Satan, he'll go away. So if you're a Christian, you don't have to be afraid that, you know, these demons are

• 31:03Speaker 02

  going to somehow possess you or kill you or whatever. Greater is he who is in you than he who is in the world, the Bible says. And so you can, the Bible says, if you shun Satan, he has no choice. He's got to, he's got to leave you. So for a Christian, you're protected. But I fear for those that don't have that kind of protection. There are cases of demon possession that, as Dr. Gallagher and others have documented, are corroborated in ways that I don't think they can be denied.

• 31:41Tucker Carlson?

  How can you corroborate a supernatural event?

• 31:46Speaker 02

  I think by the, when there's, when there's no naturalistic explanation for what occurs. So you have a woman, for instance, in front of eight eyewitnesses, levitating off of bed for 30 minutes. I don't know what the natural explanation for that would be.

• 32:01Tucker Carlson?

  That's right.

• 32:02Speaker 02

  You know, so I think it points towards something beyond that. For me, as I investigate, another area I investigate in the book are miracles. And for me, if you have solid documentation, medical documentation, if you have multiple eyewitnesses with no motive to deceive, if you have no natural explanation that seems logical that can account for the phenomenon, and if it takes place in the context of prayer, then I think it's logical to conclude that a miracle has taken place.

• 32:32Tucker Carlson?

  Yes.

• 32:33Speaker 02

  And there have been miracles published in peer-reviewed medical journals. I talk about one in my book. Here's a woman who was blind for 12 years with incurable condition. She went to a school for the blind. She learned to read Braille. She walked with a white cane. And she married a Baptist pastor. And one night, they're getting ready to go to bed, she's already in bed, he comes over to her and he puts his hand on her shoulder and he begins to cry. And he begins to pray and he says, "Lord, I know you can heal my wife. I know you can heal her right now, and I pray that you do it tonight." And with that, she opened her eyes to perfect vision. She said, "I was blind when my husband prayed for me." "I prayed, I opened my eyes, I can see, it's a miracle."

• 33:17Speaker 02

  Um, that was researched by multiple medical researchers and published in a medical journal as a case study. What do you do with that? What do you do with that?

• 33:27Tucker Carlson?

  What did they do with that?

• 33:28Speaker 02

  I think it kind of leaves it up to the, to the, the reader to say, "What's your conclusion?"

• 33:33Tucker Carlson?

  I bet they were upset by it.

• 33:35Speaker 02

  Well, yeah, but certainly, certainly does point toward a supernatural event. But here's what's interesting. There's a woman with a PhD from Harvard, uh, who's a professor at Indiana University, major secular university. And she said, "I'd like to test whether miracles are possible. How can we scientifically test that?" So here's what she did. Miracles tend to cluster in places where the gospel is just breaking in. And so we see them in China, in Mozambique, in Brazil, places where the gospel is taking root. We see miracles taking place in a disproportionate number. So she says, "I'm going to put it to the test." So she sends a team of scientists to Mozambique and researchers to Mozambique.

• 34:19Speaker 02

  And they go into the bush and they say, "Bring us all your deaf and blind." So they bring all the people deaf, blind, or with severe hearing or vision problems. They bring them and they test them scientifically right there. What is your level of vision? What is your level of hearing? They get that scientifically established. Then immediately they are prayed for in the name of Jesus by people who tend to have a track record of God using them that way. And then immediately after that, they're tested again. Guess what they found? Improvement in virtually every case, in fact, get this, the average improvement in visual acuity was tenfold. There was a woman named Martine. When they first encountered her, she could not hear the equivalent of a jackhammer next door.

• 35:04Speaker 02

  After 10 minutes of prayer, she could now hear normal conversations. Well, this team is flummoxed by this. It's like, what, something is going on here. Virtually every person improved, some of them dramatically so, like Martine. Let's see if we can replicate it. So we'll go to another place where miracles are breaking. In Brazil, they did the same test, they got the same results. In fact, there was a woman in Brazil, she couldn't see me holding up three fingers from nine feet away. And after prayer for her healing, she could read the name tag of the person praying for her. Tucker, this was published, this is a scientifically rigorous study that was published in a

• 35:49Speaker 02

  peer-reviewed, secular, scientific medical journal, major medical journal, the Southern Medical Journal, published this. And I interview, in my book, I interviewed the scholar that did that study. And I say, what do you make of this? And she said, something's going on. She said, this is, we're not playing on people's emotions. This is not some televangelist trying to get people to send in their money. This is not some people at a predisposition for anything. Something is going on. And I think she's right. I think it's miraculous.

• 36:21Tucker Carlson?

  It sounds it. And I think every person who's awake has experienced something that just doesn't, doesn't have a natural explanation.

• 36:28Speaker 02

  38%. I did a study, I hired a public opinion firm to do a scientifically accurate study of American adults. And I asked the question, have you ever had one experience, at least in your life, that you can only explain away as being a miracle of God? 38% of American adults said yes. And by the way, let's say 90%, 99% of them are wrong. Let's say they think it was a miracle, but it was just a big coincidence. So let's just wipe out 99% and say, no, no, no, you thought it was a miracle, it really wasn't. Let's wipe away 99%. Guess what? That would still mean there would be a million miracles nearly in the United States alone. So you're right. So many people have experienced something in their life

• 37:13Speaker 02

  that they can only attribute to being a miracle of God.

• 37:17Tucker Carlson?

  The official story on 9/11 is a complete lie. The 9/11 report is a joke.

• 37:23Speaker 03

  You have CIA following two men all over the planet, and then eventually even to America, right? And you don't tell the FBI. 9/11 Commission, cover.

• 37:40Tucker Carlson?

  So what did happen? What did the government know? What did foreign governments know? There was a cover-up. Why? It's been nearly 25 years. It is time Americans learned what actually happened. We're going to tell you. We're releasing one episode per week. You're not going to want to wait. If you're a member, you don't have to. You get all five episodes the day it drops, right then, ad-free. Our first episode airs Thursday, 9/11, September 11th. You will not want to miss it. Join us now at tuckercarlson.com.

• 38:18Speaker 00

  Now for a quick message from Anthropic, the team behind Claude, the AI built for businesses. Customers count on their bank, and banks count on their most important systems. Now those systems count on Claude, and nine of the Fortune 10 companies use it for critical work. See why leading companies trust Claude at claude.ai/span.

• 38:43Tucker Carlson?

  When Jesus performs miracles, healing people,

• 38:46Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 38:47Tucker Carlson?

  Making the lame walk, fixing the man with the withered hand.

• 38:51Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 38:53Tucker Carlson?

  Even when he casts out demons from the man in the cemetery on the Sea of Galilee. The reaction he gets from particularly religious authorities, the Pharisees. But they hate it.

• 39:03Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 39:04Tucker Carlson?

  They hate it.

• 39:04Speaker 02

  Yes, they do. It's funny you say that.

• 39:07Tucker Carlson?

  Why is that?

• 39:08Speaker 02

  Well, yeah, I wrote a novel once. Fiction, book of fiction. It was like a John Grisham thriller. Nobody read it. It was a big bomb. Nobody bought my book. But in that book, I have a politically ambitious pastor.

• 39:23Speaker 02

  And there's a miracle.

• 39:24Tucker Carlson?

  Is there anything worse?

• 39:25Speaker 02

  Yeah, that's right. And, and there was a miracle that happens in his congregation. And a reporter comes to question him about it. And the reporter's thinking, oh, my gosh, the evidence is overwhelming something. And, and the pastor is downplaying it. No, no, no, no, no, that's just a coincidence. That can't be true. The pastor's true. Cause why? Because he wants to be. He doesn't want to be seen as being weird by the community at large. And it would poison his political chances. So I, there is something true to that in Americans that we tend to suppress it.

• 39:57Tucker Carlson?

  Yeah, not, I mean, but I mean, this is an account from 2,000 years ago. No Americans in the New Testament, and they had the same reaction.

• 40:02Speaker 02

  But the religion, they, they did not like Jesus. They did not like his message. They did not like who he was.

• 40:08Tucker Carlson?

  I get it.

• 40:09Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 40:09Tucker Carlson?

  I think they'd be happy that the lame man can walk after 30 years. You know, it's like.

• 40:13Speaker 02

  At least they could say, hey, good for you. That's great. By the way, we don't like this Jesus guy. But no, they didn't. They just said, we don't like this Jesus guy.

• 40:20Tucker Carlson?

  No, actually they plotted to kill the man he healed.

• 40:22Speaker 02

  And they did, yes, exactly.

• 40:24Tucker Carlson?

  So there's a couple of references, at least a couple of references in the New Testament to Satan being the ruler of the earth.

• 40:31Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 40:34Tucker Carlson?

  What does that mean?

• 40:36Speaker 02

  It means that in this realm, he in many ways has his way. In other words, he has access to be able to influence people and point them away from the one true hope that there is, which is God. And, and so he prowls about, as the Bible says, as a lion, hoping to tear people apart spiritually.

• 40:59Tucker Carlson?

  I mean, if that's not true, then explain the First World War.

• 41:04Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 41:05Tucker Carlson?

  I mean, there is just no, there's no explanation, even now, over 100 years later.

• 41:08Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 41:09Tucker Carlson?

  For why that war started. Oh, you know, Rostik Ferdan got shot to death in Sarajevo. Really? Okay, that's not a real explanation, actually. Why did Christian Europe commit suicide?

• 41:19Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 41:20Tucker Carlson?

  And, and there are many other wars and many other tragedies in all of our lives. You're like, that doesn't make any sense.

• 41:28Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 41:30Tucker Carlson?

  You know, supernatural forces are acting on people.

• 41:33Speaker 02

  I agree. And, um, and, and so what I tried to do is say, okay, what evidence is there that there's more than what we can see and touch? And, and because I'm fascinated by this, and the reason I say that, uh, Tucker, is because if this is true, if demons do exist, we ought to be heads up about it. Because the two biggest mistakes we can make about the demonic realm, number one is to deny that they exist. And number two, to see a demon behind every bush and think they're more powerful than they are.

• 42:01Tucker Carlson?

  Right.

• 42:02Speaker 02

  They're, they're both problems. But I think the biggest problem in our culture is to deny that there is a demonic realm, pretend like there isn't.

• 42:09Tucker Carlson?

  So what are the hallmarks of it, then?

• 42:11Speaker 02

  Well, I think some things you mentioned, we see manifestations of it in ways that defy natural explanations. Um, uh, and I think that's probably the best way of, um,

• 42:23Tucker Carlson?

  Disorder, distraction, chaos, violence, hate, division?

• 42:27Speaker 02

  And you think, if, if Satan were smart, which he is, um, would he go around the country and around the world trying to possess or bother average, everyday people? Well, you know what? Much more efficient to go to Hollywood. And to influence a bunch of people there who are very influential in, let's say, the entertainment industry. And let's say he encourages them to create films and television shows that are funny and that are creative and are fun. But there's an underlying message to them, that there's a normalization of immoral activity, um, that makes it normal. Because, you know, when we laugh, it opens us up to, to various possibilities. When we laugh, our defenses

• 43:11Speaker 02

  come down. So I'm thinking of a wonderful, funny TV show like Friends. Remember Friends? The TV show was on TV for years. Very popular show.

• 43:19Tucker Carlson?

  Only America who never saw it, but yeah.

• 43:22Speaker 02

  But underlying that is a very ugly sexual ethic that that normalizes multiple sexual partners and that sort of thing, the kind of thing that Satan would love to inculcate into American culture. And you know what? I think it's much more efficient for Satan to influence movie makers and TV makers in Hollywood to create products that feed us stuff that without us even realizing it, open us up to the occult, open us up to immoral activity, normalize it in ways that, well, if Monica can do that on Friends, I can certainly have sex on the first date with this guy I meet.

• 44:04Tucker Carlson?

  So the way I, as a non-theological ignorant person, try and figure out whether something's good or bad, because it is an open question very often, it's like, is that good or bad? I'm not sure. Are the people doing it at peace, joyful, happy? Are they tormented?

• 44:18Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 44:19Tucker Carlson?

  And I know a lot of people in Hollywood, a lot of people I like, actually, not too many happy people. Some really tormented people, for real, string of wrecked relationships, kids who hate them, trans kids, drug problems, like, there's so much of that. Do you think that's a fair way to assess?

• 44:38Speaker 02

  I think because it is logical that if Satan were to try to influence a culture in a mass way, that that is a logical way that he would do it. And oh, guess what? By the way, look at all the dysfunction we see in that community. It does seem to match up.

• 44:55Tucker Carlson?

  So if evil is acting through you, you are harmed too?

• 45:01Speaker 02

  Generally, I would say yes. You're gonna be a, you're gonna be someone who's trying to influence others. You may not realize the full reasons why.

• 45:09Tucker Carlson?

  But it destroys you.

• 45:10Speaker 02

  Yeah, it does destroy you.

• 45:11Tucker Carlson?

  It certainly, it certainly seems to.

• 45:13Speaker 02

  Yeah, I think so. Who would, you know, God created us so we could have a relationship with Him, so He taught us how we can live in a way that maximizes who we are. And when we stray from that in egregious ways, as many people have and do, there are implications for us.

• 45:34Tucker Carlson?

  If I were trying to subvert and destroy, I would go after religious leaders. I'd have them, like, molest kids, or freaky sex lives, or steal money from the church. And you do, I've always noticed that the leadership of Christian churches...

• 45:48Tucker Carlson?

  In just like numerically.

• 45:51Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 45:52Tucker Carlson?

  Way more likely to be screwed up than the people in the views.

• 45:54Speaker 02

  Hmm, interesting.

• 45:56Tucker Carlson?

  Do you know what I mean? You see these sex scandals with pastors and you're like, how many people who are going to church every Sunday have sex lives like that? Probably not very many, but a pretty high percentage of pastors. And I feel like that is outside influence.

• 46:08Speaker 02

  Like a teachers too, teachers who young kids look up to. You know, you can imagine when you were kindergarten, first grade, second grade, you looked up to your teachers.

• 46:15Tucker Carlson?

  Not one time, there's not one teacher I liked.

• 46:17Speaker 02

  Oh, really? Oh, I sure did.

• 46:19Tucker Carlson?

  I never know, I felt it was a authoritarian situation. I was, I was totally opposed from kindergarten on till I left college. There was not one day where I respected or liked any of them, not a single one.

• 46:31Speaker 02

  That is, that is so funny.

• 46:33Tucker Carlson?

  I'm serious too.

• 46:34Speaker 02

  I, I have to go to public school growing up and yet back then in the fifties and sixties, uh, most of the teachers are Christians.

• 46:41Tucker Carlson?

  Yeah.

• 46:42Speaker 02

  And, uh, so no, I had some wonderful teachers that taught me great lessons about, uh, life. So I.

• 46:49Tucker Carlson?

  You grew up in a better America than I did. In Southern California in the seventies, I thought they were all buffoons, freaks. I wasn't taking orders from them. I really dislike them. Sorry, excuse me.

• 47:02Speaker 02

  That's funny.

• 47:02Tucker Carlson?

  Sorry. But, um, but, but if you want to lead people astray, you subvert their leaders, I guess.

• 47:09Speaker 02

  Yes, yes, very much so. I mean, yeah, just put yourself in Satan's place. How are you going to impact the maximum number of people? You're going to want to go after leaders. You're going to want to go after religious leaders. You're going to want to go after, uh, children. Um, you're going to, you know, and influence them at a young age.

• 47:26Tucker Carlson?

  Um. Well, you see all of that. I often think this is such a wonderful country despite all its problems. I'm totally convinced it's the best country, having been to a lot of countries.

• 47:36Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 47:37Tucker Carlson?

  But our leadership is the worst.

• 47:39Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 47:39Tucker Carlson?

  It's, they're the worst. They're like the worst people I've ever met.

• 47:42Speaker 02

  Hmm.

• 47:43Tucker Carlson?

  And maybe that's not accidental.

• 47:46Speaker 02

  Yeah, I mean, there could it be, I'll just raise the question, could it be that some people have received some assistance from demonic

• 47:55Tucker Carlson?

  Certainly seems that way.

• 47:57Speaker 02

  In terms of achieving what they've achieved.

• 47:58Tucker Carlson?

  How many happy political, I don't know how many political leaders you know, but how many happy ones have you met?

• 48:02Speaker 02

  Gosh, not a lot I trust, put it that way.

• 48:05Tucker Carlson?

  Right, but they're all like tormented, sweaty and nervous and afraid. Don't you think those are signs?

• 48:12Speaker 02

  I do, I do. And you look at, if Satan's gonna go after children, what is all this stuff about libraries doing children's readings of and drag shows to little kids? Why? Why would that happen? You know what? Because if you can capture the mind of a child very young, it could influence them for the rest of their life.

• 48:31Tucker Carlson?

  What happens because we put up with it?

• 48:33Speaker 02

  Yeah, we do.

• 48:34Tucker Carlson?

  A healthy society would not put up with that

• 48:36Speaker 02

  That's true.

• 48:36Tucker Carlson?

  For five minutes.

• 48:37Speaker 02

  That's true.

• 48:39Tucker Carlson?

  Sorry, they'd drive them out of the temple immediately with a whip.

• 48:41Speaker 02

  Right.

• 48:43Tucker Carlson?

  Sorry, excuse me. So you think that, you believe that demons roam the earth?

• 48:50Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 48:51Tucker Carlson?

  How do you protect yourself?

• 48:52Speaker 02

  The Bible talks about, Ephesians talks about the full armor of God and I talk about this in a book. I have a half a chapter that looks at ways that we can protect ourselves. I think the key number one way is to be knowledgeable about scripture. Because if the Bible is really from God, then that is the plumb line of truth. And if it's the plumb line of truth, we can measure everything against it. And so if we're tempted by something that violates that plumb line of truth, then we can be assured that's not from God. And so I think being familiar with what are the teachings of the Bible, so that we can

• 49:33Speaker 02

  deter any effects, any attempts by Satan to lead us down a path that's clearly not biblical. So I think that's probably the number one way. I think prayer is important. I think honestly, and I say this granted as an evangelist who wants to drag as many people to heaven with me as I can, that's my life goal now as a former atheist. I will say the best way to protect yourself is to come into a relationship with God through Jesus Christ. Because if you are indwelled by the Holy Spirit, you can't be possessed by Satan. And you can tell Satan to flee, and the Bible says, "He will flee."

• 50:11Tucker Carlson?

  What is the Holy Spirit?

• 50:12Speaker 02

  Holy Spirit, you know, the God is one what and three who's. The Bible teaches there is one God, that's clear. But it also teaches that the Father is God, that the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God. And so we have three, we have one what, which is God, and three persons. And so the Holy Spirit, being disembodied and so forth, comes into the life of someone when they repent of their sin, receive forgiveness through Christ. John 1:12 says, "But as many as received him, to them he gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in his name."

• 50:50Tucker Carlson?

  But in practical terms, like what is the Holy Spirit? So the Holy Spirit comes into you, then what happens?

• 50:54Speaker 02

  Yeah, the Holy Spirit draws you. Now you've got a plumb line inside of you, so to speak. And you recognize, I'm sure you see things in your life now as a Christian that you did before you were Christian. You say, "Why did I even do that? What was I messing with that?" I certainly have those examples. Because now, being indwelled by the Holy Spirit as a follower of Jesus, I have that plumb line to tell me what's godly and what's not. And so it aids our conscience in understanding that. And by being indwelled by the Holy Spirit, it means we cannot be possessed by Satan, as we see these demon possessions. And those are increasing in numbers. The Catholic Church has just added a whole bunch of people to

• 51:39Speaker 02

  who are trained in exorcisms. You see in charismatic ministries, deliverance ministries, I think we're seeing an increase in demonic activity, and in demons hectoring, and harassing, and oppressing, and possessing people. I think we're seeing an increase in that.

• 51:57Tucker Carlson?

  Are there certain places? I mean, there are physical places I have been where the hair on my arms go up.

• 52:05Speaker 02

  Yeah, me too.

• 52:06Tucker Carlson?

  And without any, you know, foreknowledge.

• 52:09Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 52:10Tucker Carlson?

  Not like, this is a really spooky place. Watch this. It's like, someplace, I can think of a few of them in my life where it's like, ooh, I don't know what this is about. What is that?

• 52:19Speaker 02

  I'll think of Haiti. Think of Haiti.

• 52:21Tucker Carlson?

  I've been to Haiti. I feel that strongly.

• 52:23Speaker 02

  I have a good friend who was in ministry in Haiti, and that's, that's a place that has opened itself up to the demonic.

• 52:28Tucker Carlson?

  Through human sacrifice.

• 52:29Speaker 02

  Through voodoo, through all these things. And it is a place where you palpably feel evil often. I was in some remote parts of India and felt the same thing in many places. So I, I think there is, there, just as miracles tend to break out in a positive way in places where the gospel is breaking in, I think we probably see pockets around the globe where Satan has a stronghold. And I, I would think that-

• 52:58Tucker Carlson?

  Physical places.

• 52:59Speaker 02

  Physical places, yeah. Like, I think Haiti is a good example of that.

• 53:03Tucker Carlson?

  I've been to some places in the US where I've felt that really strongly. Like, I've been, I was in a house once, I lived in a house once as a child, where part of the house, there was something so wrong with it, and every person who lived in the house knew that. Does that sound-

• 53:17Speaker 02

  Could be, could be, could be an occultic thing. Yeah.

• 53:22Tucker Carlson?

  Um, what's a mystical dream?

• 53:26Speaker 02

  Mystical dreams, I talk about these in the book, is so fascinating to me. We have seen more Muslims become Christians in the last couple of decades than in the 1400 years since Muhammad. And it's been estimated that a quarter to a third of them, before they became a Christian, had a Jesus dream. Now, what's interesting about that is that these are corroborated dreams. I'll tell you what I mean by that.

• 53:54Speaker 02

  First of all, a devout Muslim has no incentive, let's say in a closed country, or it's even illegal to share the Christian gospel, they have no incentive to have a dream as a product of their subconscious mind about Jesus, the Jesus of Christianity, because it might lead them into apostasy, it might lead them to a death sentence in certain countries. So there's no incentive for a devout Muslim to have a dream about Jesus. And yet, we are seeing this all over the Middle East, in closed countries, in oppressive countries where Christians are persecuted and so forth. But here's what

• 54:33Speaker 02

  I found most fascinating. In these cases, people are not going to sleep as a Muslim, having a dream about Jesus and waking up as a Christian. That's not how it works. There is always something that points to a phenomenon, or an event, or a person outside the dream that corroborates the dream. Let me give you an example to clarify it. There was a woman named Noor in Cairo, mother of eight, devout Muslim. She goes to sleep, she has a dream in which Jesus visits her. It's unlike any dream she's ever had. And she feels the love, and the grace, and the beauty of Jesus in such a profound way. She said, "Here I am, a woman in the presence of a man. For the first time in my life, I didn't feel shame,

• 55:18Speaker 02

  I felt love." And she's just overwhelmed by this, and they're walking along the lakeshore. And she says, "Jesus, why do you appear to me? I'm just a poor mother of eight in Cairo." And Jesus said, "My friend will tell you tomorrow." And she said, "Who's your friend?" And Jesus gestures to a man she didn't even realize was walking with them along the lakeshore, because she was so mesmerized by Jesus, she didn't notice this guy. And he says, "My friend will tell you tomorrow." She wakes up. The next day, she goes to the crowded marketplace in Cairo on a Friday afternoon, and she sees the man from her dream. She goes up to him. She said, "You're the one. You're the..." He said, "Whoa, what are you talking about? You're the man. Same glasses, same face, same clothes.

• 56:01Speaker 02

  You're the one." He said, "Did you have a dream about Jesus last night?" She said, "Yes." Turned out, he was an underground church planter. He didn't want to go to the crowded marketplace in Cairo on Friday afternoon. It's chaotic, but he felt God had an assignment for him. So he went that day, nor encounters him from the dream. He pulls her aside, opens the Bible, and shares the gospel with her. That's the external corroboration that I'm talking about. It's not just something that takes place in your subconscious mind. There is an external factor to it. I'll give you another example. There was-

• 56:38Tucker Carlson?

  So one of the miracles, there are at least two in the story you just told.

• 56:42Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 56:42Tucker Carlson?

  And one of them is that the pastor felt the call to go to the marketplace on a Friday, and he obeyed.

• 56:49Speaker 02

  Exactly.

• 56:49Tucker Carlson?

  Have you had that experience in your life where you just feel like you're being told to do something, and you obediently do it?

• 56:54Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. I remember, as a new Christian, I felt a really strong urging, I believe, of us from God, to empty our bank account and send a anonymous cashier's check to a woman, a single woman in our church, send it anonymously, and to do it on Friday. I don't know why, but it was on, to do it on Friday. And I, my wife and I both prayed about it and said, "Yeah, we're both feeling this. It's odd, but we feel it's legit." So-

• 57:27Tucker Carlson?

  To empty your bank account and send it to a stranger?

• 57:30Speaker 02

  We emptied the bank account. We got this-

• 57:32Tucker Carlson?

  It's odd, yeah. Well, that is, Leah, that is odd. Yeah, yeah, fair.

• 57:35Speaker 02

  Hey, it was only $500, but still, for us, that was a lot of money back then. So, we send this check.

• 57:41Tucker Carlson?

  Did you know the woman?

• 57:42Speaker 02

  Yeah, we knew her. Yeah, nice woman. She had come to faith. She had actually had a lot of negative experience with Christians growing up, but she ended up coming to faith through a debate on Christianity we did in our church between an atheist and a Christian. And so I knew who she was and so forth. So on Monday morning, she calls me out of the blue, and she's crying. She said, "Lee, I don't know what to do." I said, "What, what, what, what's going on?" She said, "My car broke down over the weekend." They say it's gonna cost $500 for me to fix my car. I don't have $500. I'm gonna lose my car. I'm gonna lose my job because I gotta have my car for the job. Would you pray for me

• 58:19Speaker 02

  that I would get this $500 somehow? And I said, absolutely, I'll pray for you. Let's pray. And sure enough, that afternoon, because I'd mail in Friday, Monday afternoon, she gets this anonymous $500 check. Um, so there's

• 58:35Tucker Carlson?

  Did you ever tell her?

• 58:36Speaker 02

  No, she doesn't. Not unless she's listening. Maybe she

• 58:39Tucker Carlson?

  Is she still around?

• 58:40Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah. She's still. Yeah. She actually quit her nursing job and joined the staff of our church. She used to deliver my mail every day at the church.

• 58:47Tucker Carlson?

  Wow.

• 58:48Speaker 02

  So I guess if she's listening, now she'll know. But, um,

• 58:51Tucker Carlson?

  You've never told her? What year was that?

• 58:52Speaker 02

  No. Oh, gosh, this was when I was a new Christian at the church. It was probably 1987, somewhere in there. Yeah.

• 59:00Tucker Carlson?

  Almost 40 years ago?

• 59:02Speaker 02

  Yeah. Yeah. So, um, so, yeah, I think that does happen. Um, where God influences you.

• 59:08Tucker Carlson?

  Do you try to be open?

• 59:09Speaker 02

  I do.

• 59:10Tucker Carlson?

  That?

• 59:11Speaker 02

  I do. When I pray, I try to leave time at the end of the prayer. Say, God, I'm just gonna be quiet for a while. If there's anything you want to tell me, anything you need to alert me to, any way you want to lead me, I'm just gonna be quiet. I'm just gonna listen. And I just spend, and normally, there's nothing. That day, there was $500. But normally, I don't feel anything that specific. Um, but it's okay, because what's important is saying, I'm open, God, to anything you want me to do, or what you want me to do. I'm open to it. Um, of course, anything, the Bible says, test the spirits. So if I'm feeling something, I want to test it to make sure it's scriptural, because God's not gonna tell me, he's not gonna go tell me to poison my neighbor. All right?

• 59:55Speaker 02

  So it's gonna be consistent with scripture. But I want to leave myself that opportunity to open myself up and say, God, I'm listening. And just pause for a while and, and see, is there something? And on that day, there was something. It doesn't happen that often. But every once in a while, something will take place like that.

• 1:00:11Tucker Carlson?

  Amazing. So you, I'm sorry for the, for the cul-de-sac there. Um, you believe there has been an uptick in mystical dreams?

• 1:00:22Speaker 02

  I, oh, definitely in the Middle East. In fact, get this, in Cairo, there's often an ad in the newspaper. And the ad says, call this number, and we'll tell you about the man in white you've met in your dream last night.

• 1:00:35Speaker 02

  Because there's so many of these. I interviewed for my book, Seeing the Supernatural, I interviewed Tom Doyle, who's the world's leading expert on this. And Tom said, "Lee, I could pick up the phone right now, and I could call Syria, I could call Iraq, I could call Iran." And I'll give you five more stories. They are so common. I'll give you one from my church in Houston, Texas. So, I'm part of a church, I live part-time in Houston, part of a church there, I used to be on the staff. And there was a woman who was born in the Middle East, in a closed country where you can't share the gospel legally. And she had a dream, when she was about 16-years-old. And she said, "It was unlike any dream I ever

• 1:01:15Speaker 02

  had, because it was like a projector was projecting an image of Jesus. And it influenced her, it touched her, but she didn't know what to do with it. And she said, "I was having problems with my life, I called out for help, and that's what happened." Well, she ended up marrying a Muslim gentleman, who was transferred to Houston, Texas, because of the oil industry. So she moves into, near our church, and she has another dream. And in this dream, she's up to her waist in a body of water. And there's a man with her, with a book that's open, and the man is weeping. And she's thinking, "What does that mean? What is that supposed to be about?" Well, a neighbor of hers goes to our church, and

• 1:01:59Speaker 02

  she invited her to come to Easter services at our church, because her husband was out of town. So she came to Easter services. She's sitting on the aisle, in the auditorium, waiting for the service to begin. And she sees the man who was with her in the pond, with the book. And she said, "That's the guy. He was one in my dream, when I was in this pond, for no reason whatsoever, but I saw him." Well, his name is Alan Spahn. Alan is our pastor of baptism. Alan comes over, they introduce her. This woman ends up receiving Jesus Christ as her forgiving leader. She becomes a Christian and she learns about baptism. And sure enough, Alan Splawn takes her to the pond on our property where we baptized new believers and with her

• 1:02:44Speaker 02

  water up to her waist and with Alan with the Bible open and weeping at the joy baptizes her in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. So there's a case in my own church in Texas like that.

• 1:02:59Tucker Carlson?

  What did her husband say when he got home?

• 1:03:00Speaker 02

  He doesn't know.

• 1:03:01Tucker Carlson?

  He doesn't know?

• 1:03:03Speaker 02

  He doesn't know because she can't tell him. She said he would, he would, who knows what he would do. She can't, she can't. So she keeps, she has a Bible that we gave her. She keeps it hidden and she doesn't go to church because she can't. So she has to keep it hidden from her husband. Yeah, it's sad. But again, she didn't know nothing about baptism. What, what kind of, what kind of a mystical dream you're standing up to your waist in water with a guy with a book who's crying? I mean, what in the world is that all about?

• 1:03:36Tucker Carlson?

  How do you tell the difference between a conventional dream and a mystical dream? Or are all dreams mystical? I, I don't, we don't know what dreams are, just for the record as a matter of science. No one's ever been able to explain what that is.

• 1:03:47Speaker 02

  You know, it's interesting. God is in control of all. And so in a sense, everything is spiritual, right? I mean, God, God rules and so forth. So in a sense, any dream is spiritual. I think to me, a mystical dream is one that has a strong spiritual overtones and there's no natural explanation to say this could come from your subconscious mind. You know, I think sometimes people will write off a dream as saying, well, that's just something that came from your subconscious. Maybe you saw something on television, didn't even realize it and it was in your subconscious and, but when you have examples like the one I gave, that doesn't make sense. I'll give you another example. There was a guy named

• 1:04:27Speaker 02

  Omar and Omar grew up in a refugee camp in the Middle East, hated Jewish people, hated Jewish people. His life goal was to murder as many Jews as he could. And so he wanted to join Hamas. This is about a dozen years ago. He wanted to join Hamas. So he makes arrangements to meet with some leaders of Hamas. So he's walking down the road toward that meeting, and he's blocked by a vision of Jesus, who stops him and says, Omar, this is not the plan I have for your life. I want you to turn around. I want you to go home. This is not what I want for your life.

• 1:05:10Speaker 02

  Well, it freaks him out, right? And so what does he do? He turns around. He goes home. That afternoon, he lived in an apartment building. That afternoon, an American family was moving into the apartment across the hall. And he goes over there and he says, "I just had this vision of Jesus telling me that..." And he explained the vision. And he said, "As a Christian, can you tell me what it means?" And this Christian man said, "Well, let me just do this." And he opens the Bible and he shares the gospel with him. And Omar not only becomes a Christian, but today he himself is an underground church planter in the Middle East. Omar's not his real name, by the way. So there you have, again, external corroboration.

• 1:05:55Speaker 02

  The image, the vision he had pointed him ultimately towards somebody else who then explained the gospel. That, to me, tells me this is more than a subconscious manifestation of something in our heads.

• 1:06:10Tucker Carlson?

  Yes.

• 1:06:10Speaker 02

  And that's what, as someone trained in journalism and law, I'm looking for those kind of instances of corroboration.

• 1:06:21Tucker Carlson?

  Visions are something we associate with hallucinogenic drugs?

• 1:06:25Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 1:06:27Tucker Carlson?

  What is that? What are the visions produced by ayahuasca and LSD?

• 1:06:30Speaker 02

  There are what I would call naturalistic visions. In other words, visions that are caused by things that we can determine are natural. I mean, natural, medically natural.

• 1:06:42Tucker Carlson?

  Chemicals.

• 1:06:42Speaker 02

  Chemicals. I'll give you an example. In 2011, I had a condition called hyponitremia. Hyponitremia is a severe drop in your blood sodium level. And it causes your brain to expand in your head. Well, there's no room for your brain to expand very much, and so you have hallucinations. And I almost died as a result of it.

• 1:07:06Tucker Carlson?

  But just out of the blue, you had this?

• 1:07:08Speaker 02

  Well, it was a combination of several things I had. I was allergic to a drug that they'd given me because I'd lost my voice and they gave me a steroid and I was allergic to the steroid. I didn't know I had pneumonia, which can be a factor. I'd lost a kidney, which I wasn't aware of, and that regulates sodium. So I had all these weird things going

• 1:07:26Tucker Carlson?

  on. This was the Job period.

• 1:07:27Speaker 02

  Yeah, it was a Job period. That's right. So here I am. I had halluci- I saw demons. I saw weird things. Do I believe they were from God? No. Do I believe they're from Satan? No. Do I believe they were demons? No. I think they were a product of the medical problem I had of my sodium dropping so low.

• 1:07:46Tucker Carlson?

  How long did this go on and where were you when you saw these visions?

• 1:07:49Speaker 02

  I was at home and I finally fell unconscious. They called the paramedics. I woke up in the emergency room and the doctor looked down at me and said, "You're one step away from a coma, two steps away from dying." And then I went unconscious again.

• 1:08:03Tucker Carlson?

  That was the message the doctor gave?

• 1:08:06Speaker 02

  I know.

• 1:08:06Tucker Carlson?

  Pretty reassuring.

• 1:08:07Speaker 02

  I know. You'd think he could have sugarcoated it a little.

• 1:08:10Tucker Carlson?

  The last thing you heard was, "You're dying."

• 1:08:11Speaker 02

  Yeah, I know. It's like, "Hey, give me the, give me it sugarcoated first." But they had, the problem is they have to raise the sodium level very carefully because 25% of people with this condition end up mentally or physically disabled. So they have to raise it. So I was in a hospital about a week and they had to gently, slowly raise the-

• 1:08:31Tucker Carlson?

  One potato chip at a time?

• 1:08:32Speaker 02

  Exactly. So do I think those were mystical? Do I believe I really saw a demon? Probably not. I think that was a medically induced phenomenon. I don't have any external corroboration other than to say it was these low sodium that is known to cause hallucinations. And I had hallucinations. So I think there are medical things that can- Cause that there are drugs that can cause hallucinations. Now, God is overall, I get that, but as a skeptic, I'm always looking for those cases where we have evidence that it's true beyond the experience itself.

• 1:09:09Tucker Carlson?

  There are certain forms of what we refer to as mental illness.

• 1:09:12Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:09:13Tucker Carlson?

  Which is like a phrase invented by people pretty recently.

• 1:09:16Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:09:17Tucker Carlson?

  Um, and clearly there are forms of mental illness, I think, I guess, whatever that is. Um, but there are certain people who have visions that are very unpleasant.

• 1:09:28Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 1:09:29Tucker Carlson?

  And that bear like almost a precise resemblance to the demonic possession described.

• 1:09:34Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:09:34Tucker Carlson?

  Described in the New Testament.

• 1:09:36Speaker 02

  They may be, they may be demonic. I, I don't know. Uh, I have to evaluate each one to try to determine.

• 1:09:43Tucker Carlson?

  Of course, this is, these are broad brushes, but you do. Is it fair to, uh, conclude that maybe not everything the shrink tells you is mental illness?

• 1:09:54Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:09:54Tucker Carlson?

  They can never describe where it comes from or how to fix it. They have no idea. But whatever, they know nothing, to be clear. Uh, but is it fair to assume that maybe some of that is spiritual?

• 1:10:04Speaker 02

  Yes, I think it can very well be. Uh, I would look at, um, you know, all of the factors involved. Um, where we have the external corroboration, like people left with scratches on them or bruises that cannot be explained. Uh, where we have levitation, where we have people speaking in a language they don't know. Spontaneously speaking Latin, um, things like that, then that is the external corroboration to me that there's something demonic going on. It doesn't mean it couldn't be demonic. I'm just saying those are the cases I'm more comfortable in concluding that they're demonic. When I've got that kind of, uh, external corroboration.

• 1:10:42Tucker Carlson?

  But speaking in languages you don't know is also, can also be, is described as in, in the Acts of the Apostles as. A manifestation of the Holy Spirit of God in dwelling.

• 1:10:52Speaker 02

  That's right. There are other languages people speak, but not when they're spitting at clergy. We're trying to exercise.

• 1:11:01Tucker Carlson?

  Oh, is that a sign?

• 1:11:02Speaker 02

  Yeah, that could be a sign.

• 1:11:03Tucker Carlson?

  When you're cringing before a crucifix. You're trying to bite people. But what about glossolalia? What about speaking in tongues?

• 1:11:10Speaker 02

  Yeah, that is a spiritual gift. There are Christians who believe that those gifts have ended with the apostolic age and are no longer applicable. There are other Christians who believe they are still active in this world. I believe they are still active. I've met Christians who speak in other tongues and others who interpret that. So I believe it's a gift that still takes place. I have not experienced that personally, but I have credible people who do and have experienced that. There are other Christians, though, who say, no, no, no, that ended with the apostles.

• 1:11:47Speaker 02

  So that's one of those side issues theologically that when we get to heaven, we can raise our hands and ask God, hey, what about that speaking in tongues thing?

• 1:11:54Tucker Carlson?

  Yeah, no, I know that there is a debate over it. I have no idea what I think about it, but it is, I guess, just as a factual matter, it's true that there are people who seized by some unseen force begin speaking in languages they have never learned.

• 1:12:10Speaker 02

  Yes, and often this is, generally, I would say, this is not a language that other people speak. It is a

• 1:12:16Tucker Carlson?

  Or have ever spoken?

• 1:12:17Speaker 02

  Yeah, have ever spoken. It's a spiritual language. But then there's someone, and this is a good corroboration, someone who can interpret that, and they understand it, this language, even though it is a spiritual language. It's not Latin. It's not Greek. It's a spiritual language, and that someone else is able to hear, and they have a gift as well to interpret what is being said.

• 1:12:40Tucker Carlson?

  I gotta take you down one other back alley here really quick. So there, both the Hebrews and the early Christians wrote extensively about the concept of a name.

• 1:12:51Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:12:52Tucker Carlson?

  God's name, holy be your name.

• 1:12:53Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 1:12:54Tucker Carlson?

  In the name of God, the name of Jesus. What does that mean exactly? Why the name?

• 1:12:59Speaker 02

  It means a couple of things. I mean, to, to do things in the name of God, Yahweh, in the name of God, is to do something consistent with how God is leading you and how scriptures would suggest that you act. So in other words, to act in God's name is to do something consistent with his character. So if I do something charitable to my personal loss and yet to someone else who's in great need, I do that in God's name. I do that because this is what the Bible teaches me, that I should be generous and helpful toward people who are hurting.

• 1:13:36Tucker Carlson?

  Right.

• 1:13:38Speaker 02

  Names, you know, names in scripture, you know, you, you look at the name of Jesus is called Emmanuel. Well, he's never called Emmanuel, it's said it was his name, but what that means in, in the ancient language is that he's, that he is God with us. That's what Emmanuel means, God with us. And that was the name given to Jesus, but that wasn't the name he was called. But it was a name that was associated with Jesus. So names have all kinds of implications in, in ancient Judaism and early Christianity.

• 1:14:13Tucker Carlson?

  Sure seems that way.

• 1:14:14Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:14:14Tucker Carlson?

  I mean.

• 1:14:14Speaker 02

  Now we just name people according to what everybody's.

• 1:14:18Tucker Carlson?

  What we see on Friends.

• 1:14:19Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, that's right.

• 1:14:20Tucker Carlson?

  But, but I mean, you know, observant Jews do not spell out the name of God, right? They leave the vowels out.

• 1:14:26Speaker 02

  That's right.

• 1:14:26Tucker Carlson?

  Because the name is itself holy, just the name.

• 1:14:29Speaker 02

  Yes, that's right. The name, that's right. They would, and, and they would talk around the name. There's a verse in Luke 15 where it says that there is rejoicing in heaven. How does it go?

• 1:14:50Speaker 02

  Yeah, I can't think of the exact terminology, but basically it's a way of saying there's rejoicing in heaven whenever a person becomes a Christian, without saying the name of God rejoicing. It kind of talks around that a bit. So, there's a hesitation, and in fact, a something you didn't want to do in ancient Jewish world is to use the name of God. That was forbidden.

• 1:15:13Tucker Carlson?

  Like at all?

• 1:15:14Speaker 02

  Yeah, you wouldn't use it, and you wouldn't spell it out. You'd talk around it.

• 1:15:18Tucker Carlson?

  Because it's so powerful.

• 1:15:20Speaker 02

  So holy, yeah.

• 1:15:21Tucker Carlson?

  It could hurt you. So, near-death experiences. Walk toward the light, Leah! What's a near-death experience?

• 1:15:28Speaker 02

  A near-death experience is when a person is clinically dead. That is, generally, no brainwaves, no respiration, no heartbeat.

• 1:15:35Tucker Carlson?

  No brainwaves.

• 1:15:35Speaker 02

  Yeah. They're clinically dead. Yet, they're gonna be revived. And so, they're dead for a period of time, clinically dead, but they're not permanently dead. So, the body will be revived at some point.

• 1:15:48Tucker Carlson?

  So, by the measurements of science, they're dead?

• 1:15:51Speaker 02

  Yeah, that's right. That's right.

• 1:15:52Tucker Carlson?

  So, maybe, right there, if we just pause, like, maybe, right there, we have further evidence that science, while useful, of course, and life improving in some ways, does not have the tools to measure the totality of the experience?

• 1:16:06Speaker 02

  Well, you know, it is...

• 1:16:08Tucker Carlson?

  So, they're actually like, "That's the failure. Like, they're obviously not dead."

• 1:16:11Speaker 02

  Yeah, that's right. They are coming back. That's right. All the signs are that they're dead, but, you know, the Bible says that, and Christianity teaches that when a person dies, their spirit separates from their body. And this is what we see in a near-death experience. This is evidence for the soul, for the spirit. So, the physical body is clinically dead. There's no sign of life in the body. They're still working on you.

• 1:16:37Tucker Carlson?

  Has, once again, has there ever been a culture that we're aware of, in the entire span of human history, that did not believe in the soul?

• 1:16:46Speaker 02

  They all did.

• 1:16:47Tucker Carlson?

  That thought that people were just meat puppets and...

• 1:16:49Speaker 02

  Exactly. I quote experts in the book that talk about that, that there is, every civilization believed in the spirit, a spirit, a soul, that continues to live on after we die.

• 1:16:59Tucker Carlson?

  Our leaders don't believe that.

• 1:17:00Speaker 02

  Well, that's not only tragic, it's dangerous. Because if you, if you believe we are only our brain, we're only neurons that are firing, that means technically, we have no free will. And seriously, you're saying we don't have free, how do you punish someone for doing something wrong if they really didn't have free will?

• 1:17:18Tucker Carlson?

  It also means we have no inherent rights.

• 1:17:20Speaker 02

  We have no right and wrong?

• 1:17:21Tucker Carlson?

  Does a rock have a right? No.

• 1:17:23Speaker 02

  Exactly.

• 1:17:24Tucker Carlson?

  Right, so, so maybe that should be the acid test for leadership. If you don't believe human beings have souls, if that's not the basis of the way you understand other people, there's a separate person with a distinct and unique soul.

• 1:17:38Speaker 02

  Right.

• 1:17:38Tucker Carlson?

  If you don't believe that, you can have no power in our society. Is that fair?

• 1:17:43Speaker 02

  I like that. I like, I never thought of that before, but I certainly wouldn't trust a person personally, morally, if, if they believed only that we are a brain.

• 1:17:52Tucker Carlson?

  I wouldn't, I wouldn't give them a driver's license. That's scary.

• 1:17:55Speaker 02

  It is scary.

• 1:17:56Tucker Carlson?

  You don't think other people have souls?

• 1:17:57Speaker 02

  Exactly.

• 1:17:57Tucker Carlson?

  What? You're a psychopath.

• 1:17:59Speaker 02

  Exactly. I have a interview in my book with a PhD from Cambridge University in neuroscience, who says, "The evidence is so persuasive that yes, indeed, we do have a soul. We do have a spirit."

• 1:18:13Tucker Carlson?

  Thank you.

• 1:18:13Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 1:18:14Tucker Carlson?

  Thank you, neuroscientists from, yeah. Thank you for confirming.

• 1:18:19Speaker 02

  What's interesting is that we, we, we have cases where people are clinically dead, their spirit separates from their body, and they see or hear things that would have been impossible for them to see or hear if their spirit had not actually separated from their body. So this is confirmation that the soul exists.

• 1:18:38Tucker Carlson?

  Interesting.

• 1:18:39Speaker 02

  And let me give you some examples. So there's a woman named Maria. She was dying in a hospital in London, England. And, but she said, "I was conscious the whole time." And so here they are, working on her body, trying to bring her back. She said, "My spirit floated out of my body. I met a divine being, but mainly I'm, I'm looking down from the ceiling of the hospital room at the resuscitation efforts. I'm watching them trying to revive my body." And then at some point, the reviving works and the spirit returns to the body. And she says, "By the way, see the ceiling fan here in this room, the hospital room?

• 1:19:20Speaker 02

  There's a red sticker on top of one of the blades of the ceiling fan." Now, you couldn't see it from the room because it's on the top of one of the blades of the ceiling fan, but she saw it because from her perspective, near the ceiling, watching resuscitation, she was looking down. So they got a ladder, they went up there, sure enough, on the top of this blade, here's the sticker, exactly as she has described it. That tells me that she really did have an out-of-body experience, just as the Bible describes. And, and this is extremely common. We have a woman, woman, it was a young girl, she was nine years old, as I recall, eight or nine, um, she drowned in a swimming pool at YMCA. Horrible, horrible.

• 1:20:04Speaker 02

  Her brain had swelled, um, she had no respiration, uh, no heartbeat, um, um, she was clinically dead. So they brought her to the hospital to keep her body alive mechanically till they decided what to do, you know? Um, and they continued to try to revive her, but, uh, as it turns out, three days later, she was revived. Um, and with no brain damage. And she said, "By the way," Seriously? Yeah. And she said, "I was conscious the whole time." And they said, "Oh, that's not possible." And so the doctors, who were skeptical, said, "Here, here's a piece of paper and a crayon. Why don't you draw the emergency room where we took you when you were dead?" So she picks up the crayon, she draws the emergency room exactly as it appears.

• 1:20:49Speaker 02

  And then she said, "By the way, one night, when my parents visited me in the hospital, I followed them home. And I watched as my mom, she was making chicken soup with rice on the stove. And my dad was sitting in a certain chair, and he was looking in a certain direction. And her brother," she said, "was playing with a G.I. Joe Jeep in his bedroom, um, and these are the clothes that they were wearing. Everything was exactly correct."

• 1:21:17Speaker 02

  How do you explain that if she didn't have an authentic out of body experience? While she was clinically dead? So this is affirmation that near death experiences do point toward a spirit, a soul, that separates from our body at the time of death. Now, it can return to our body if we're revived, and that's what happens in these cases. Interestingly, there was a study done of 21 blind people, either blind since birth or shortly thereafter. They were able to see or had visualized like perceptions during their near death experiences. So there's a woman named Vicky.

• 1:21:55Tucker Carlson?

  Wait, what?

• 1:21:56Speaker 02

  Yeah, Vicky Umapeg, 26 years old, she's blind, virtually since birth. She is killed in a car crash, passenger in a car, she's killed. But she said later, "I was conscious the whole time." And she's, her spirits floated out, she watched, she's able to see the resuscitation efforts. She was able to see childhood friends who she'd never seen in person, but she knew intuitively who they were. "Oh, that's Mary, that's Jimmy." She sees birds for the first time, she sees trees and so forth. And then, when her body is revived and her spirit returns to her body, she's blind again. Medical researchers said, "This is impossible, based on current medical knowledge. How does this happen?"

• 1:22:41Speaker 02

  So, there's a phenomenon here that tells me that there's corroboration, that there's something to this idea that we have a soul, a spirit, that is different than our physical brain and body. And I'll add this, this is really important. John Burke is, I interviewed him for my book. John Burke is a Christian pastor, who, with an engineering degree and science background, who studied 1,500 cases of near death experiences, in depth. He has video interviews with people and so forth. And here's his conclusion. He said, "Lee, if you look at not how people interpret what happens," because we all interpret things through our worldview.

• 1:23:25Tucker Carlson?

  Of course.

• 1:23:26Speaker 02

  If you're Muslim, if you're Hindu, you're going to interpret things differently. Forget that, set that aside. Just look at what actually takes place during a typical near death experience. That is consistent with the Christian Bible.

• 1:23:39Tucker Carlson?

  And what is it that's consistent?

• 1:23:41Speaker 02

  Well, things like encountering a divine being, things like encountering people who had preceded you in death, things like a life review, where your life is reviewed, and you not only experience with this divine figure next to you who's encouraging you. It's not a judgmental kind of a way. It's you're judging yourself. You're reviewing every little action you took, but you're able for the first time to see the ripple effects of that. So I may have done something that hurt you years ago, and I never realized the impact that had on you,

• 1:24:24Speaker 02

  and how that caused you to do this, that, and the other thing. And yet, in this life review, you see not only what you did, and you did good and you did bad, but the ramifications of it.

• 1:24:36Tucker Carlson?

  Yes.

• 1:24:37Speaker 02

  That takes place. Now, you're not permanently dead. The Bible says in Hebrews, we're appointed once to die, and then the judgment. So you would think that biblically speaking, you would die, and then you would encounter judgment. Well, you're not permanently dead. You're coming back. This is not your permanent death. So this is kind of a taste, a foretaste of what death is like. But you're not permanently dead. You're just clinically dead. But you still have some of the attributes of what the Bible talks about in terms of a judgment. So I think that's reassuring for Christians like me, who used to think, oh, that's New Age stuff. Near-death experience, that's weird. There have been, Tucker, 900 scholarly articles

• 1:25:20Speaker 02

  written about near-death experiences in medical journals and scientific journals over the last 50 years. This is a very well-researched area. And they have concluded that there is no natural explanation that can account for all of the aspects of a near-death experience. It's a fascinating area. And so I interview, as I said, John Burke, who's an expert on them, to give examples of this sort of thing.

• 1:25:47Tucker Carlson?

  What about pre-death?

• 1:25:48Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 1:25:49Tucker Carlson?

  Pre-death visions?

• 1:25:50Speaker 02

  This is, ah, this is, this is new.

• 1:25:53Tucker Carlson?

  Can I just add one editorial comment?

• 1:25:55Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:25:55Tucker Carlson?

  I'm so filled with rage, I have to do it. That... Our culture systematically excludes conversation, real conversations about death. Obviously, we're very pro-death, you know, kill your baby, euthanize your parents, whatever. We're all about death. But the actual experience of death is kind of cloaked from most people, and I don't think they have any idea what it is when someone dies, the process of dying. And so this is a welcome conversation.

• 1:26:23Speaker 02

  Tucker, it's fascinating, these deathbed visions, the difference between a near-death experience and a deathbed vision is in a near-death experience, a person's going to come back.

• 1:26:32Tucker Carlson?

  Right.

• 1:26:32Speaker 02

  In a deathbed vision, this is a vision someone has just before they die. They're not coming back. I mean, they're permanently going to die. But we see a biblical example of this in the book of Acts. We see Stephen, who is described as being full of the Holy Spirit, who is on the verge of being stoned to death, and he looks up and he sees the heavens open up, and he sees the Father and the Son together. So this has a biblical precedent. But what is fascinating, and I think what you said is so true, people don't like to talk about it because

• 1:27:03Tucker Carlson?

  At all.

• 1:27:03Speaker 02

  Yeah, at all. Because if you have one of these experiences before you die, you think, they're going to think I'm, I've got dementia, they're going to think I'm nuts, they're going to, they're going to think, you know. So a lot of people don't like to talk about it. So there's a researcher, he went to a huge hospice facility in New York State, and they went to all the dying people, and they said, please, as a favor, if you have a vision, a dream unlike any you've ever had, tell us, would you tell us? And so 88% of those dying people had a pre-death vision that they reported on before they died. 88%. I think the other 12% probably had one, but they died before they were able to say anything.

• 1:27:47Tucker Carlson?

  Or they were so high on morphine, they couldn't talk.

• 1:27:50Speaker 02

  That's true. They get, people get drugged up. That's true.

• 1:27:52Tucker Carlson?

  So there's that. I mean, obviously, you don't want people to suffer, you want to alleviate suffering and alleviate pain. I'm totally for that. I'm, you know, want to be clear about it. But there's also this custom which has grown to ubiquity. Now it's just, it's everybody who dies. Gets from the hospice nurses.

• 1:28:10Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:28:11Tucker Carlson?

  They kill you with morphine. I mean, that's no one wants to say that out loud, but I've seen it. They kill you with morphine.

• 1:28:16Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:28:16Tucker Carlson?

  And, okay, first, we should just be honest about what's happening.

• 1:28:20Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:28:20Tucker Carlson?

  Always. But second, we should be clear about the cost. So if people, if.

• 1:28:26Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 1:28:27Tucker Carlson?

  Everybody on the way out is getting visions of some kind.

• 1:28:30Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 1:28:30Tucker Carlson?

  Maybe there's a purpose to those visions. Maybe we shouldn't short circuit that.

• 1:28:34Speaker 02

  And Tucker.

• 1:28:35Tucker Carlson?

  Maybe.

• 1:28:36Speaker 02

  There's also corroboration for these. So in other words, they did one study of 3,000 of these, and they determined this is not just something coming from the subconscious mind. There is something else here. And I'll give you the example of the corroboration. There was a woman named Doris. She's dying on her deathbed, and she has a pre-death vision. And she sees the heavens open up, and she sees angelic beings. And she sees her father, who had died several years earlier, and he's kind of almost welcoming her to the next realm. But then she gets this confused look on her face, and she says, "Wait a minute. Why is Vida with my father? What? Why would Vida be there?

• 1:29:19Speaker 02

  It makes no sense. Why would Vida be there?" And then she died. Vida was her sister. Her sister had died two weeks earlier, but no one had told Doris, because she was so ill, they didn't want the news to kill her. So they withheld the news that her sister, Vida, had died. And yet, on her deathbed, she sees Vida in the world to come. That is fairly common. It actually happened with my father-in-law. So that, to me, is a corroboration. Another form of corroboration, get this. In the Bible, in Luke 16, there's a story of a rich man and a beggar who both die.

• 1:29:58Tucker Carlson?

  Yes.

• 1:29:58Speaker 02

  And the rich man goes to a place of torment.

• 1:30:00Tucker Carlson?

  Yeah.

• 1:30:01Speaker 02

  And the beggar goes to a place of bliss.

• 1:30:02Tucker Carlson?

  The rich man, by the way, has walked past the poor man every day.

• 1:30:05Speaker 02

  That's right.

• 1:30:06Tucker Carlson?

  And ignored him.

• 1:30:06Speaker 02

  And ignored him. So the beggar, according to Jesus, in verse 22, is accompanied by angels to heaven, that angels accompany him to heaven. And what's particularly fascinating is people who have pre-death visions often see angels coming for them, just as Jesus suggested in that parable. So, for instance, the most famous.

• 1:30:32Speaker 02

  Skeptic in Canada, Charles Templeton. Charles Templeton was the pulpit partner of Billy Graham. He was going to be the great evangelist. But then he went to a liberal seminary, he lost his faith. He wrote an ugly book called Farewell to God, My Reasons for Rejecting the Christian Faith. And I got to know him, he became a friend. I actually wrote a book called The Case for Faith, where I answered all his objections to Christianity. And we became friends. Anyway, he ended up coming back to faith in Christ before he died. And then he's on his deathbed. And he calls out to his wife, Madeline, "Madeline, what, what Chuck? Can you see them?" "What are you talking about?" "They're in the room, you can't see them? They're right here in this room, they're..."

• 1:31:14Speaker 02

  "The angels, they're coming for me, oh, they're so beautiful, look at them, they're so..." "The singing is so beautiful, they're coming for me, I'm going to heaven, I'm gonna be with God." That is incredibly common, that people will see angels coming for them in that vision they had before. Now, now here's another bit of corroboration. Children who are dying will see angels, but not like you would expect them to be seen. In other words, let's say a five-year-old who's dying. What is their image of an angel? Well, it's, it's a furry thing with, or feathery thing with big wings, right? It's a cartoon, right? It's a cartoon, they all have big wings.

• 1:31:55Speaker 02

  And so, there's a case from a doctoral dissertation I read, of a little girl who's dying. And she says, "Mommy, mommy, can you see the angels? They're, they're coming for me, oh, they're so beautiful, they're so beautiful, their eyes, look at their eyes." And the mother didn't want to disappoint her, so she said, "Oh, yeah, yeah, I see them, look at their big wings." And the little girl said, "Oh mommy, they don't have wings." And she was able to describe them in vivid detail before she died.

• 1:32:24Tucker Carlson?

  Wow.

• 1:32:25Speaker 02

  You would think if a child of that age was gonna have just a vision from their imagination of angels coming for them, they would have big wings. They don't.

• 1:32:35Tucker Carlson?

  It would be the Hallmark version, yeah.

• 1:32:36Speaker 02

  That's right. And in case after case, they don't see the big wings. And by the way, the Bible doesn't say that all angels have wings. So that to me is another very interesting dynamic of these pre-death visions.

• 1:32:50Tucker Carlson?

  Not all people on their deathbed have joyful visions.

• 1:32:53Speaker 02

  That's right.

• 1:32:54Tucker Carlson?

  Or reunited with loved ones in the next world.

• 1:32:57Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 1:32:58Tucker Carlson?

  There are many people who are in terror.

• 1:33:01Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 1:33:02Tucker Carlson?

  And horrified.

• 1:33:03Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 1:33:05Tucker Carlson?

  Can you describe that and what is it?

• 1:33:06Speaker 02

  Yes. We have this in near-death experiences and in deathbed visions where people who are about to die have a glimpse, I believe, of a hellish experience to come. And they are frightened beyond belief and scared beyond words. I'll give you an example of a near-death vision where this happened. There's a man named Howard Storm. Howard was an atheist. He was a professor of art at a secular university, chairman of the art department. And he was visiting France, and he died of a heart attack. So here he is, he's in a French hospital, he's dead. But he said later, "I was conscious the whole time. It was a near-death experience." His spirit had separated from his body. And there were some people in the hallway saying,

• 1:33:49Speaker 02

  "Howard, we've been waiting for you. Come with us, come with us." So he does. And he's walking down the hallway, his spirit is walking down the hallway with these people. And it goes on and on and on, and it gets darker and darker. And then they're becoming abusive, and they're saying, "Come on, come on, why are you so slow?" And then they start to attack him. And he said, he said, they, he said, "No horror movie can ever capture..."

• 1:34:16Speaker 02

  The horror of what they did to me. I mean, he was absolutely mauled. He said, I was roadkill. And he said, I called out to God.

• 1:34:25Tucker Carlson?

  Mauled, like physically mauled?

• 1:34:27Speaker 02

  Yes. Eyes gouged out, ears ripped off, just horror. And he calls out to Jesus, Jesus, rescue me. And this white ore becomes and brings him and rescues him from that, and he is restored. Well, ultimately, his body is revived, his spirit returns to his body. This is such a profound experience that he not only renounced his atheism, he not only quit his tenured position as chairman of the art department at a secular university, he not only became a Christian, he went to seminary, he became a pastor, and today he's a pastor of this little church, I think it's in Kentucky or Oklahoma or somewhere,

• 1:35:08Speaker 02

  in the middle of nowhere, serving God. That's how transformative this experience was.

• 1:35:13Tucker Carlson?

  Amazing.

• 1:35:14Speaker 02

  But there are multiple cases of people having horrific, in fact, one study of near-death experiences said it was 24% had negative experiences, not positive ones.

• 1:35:26Tucker Carlson?

  Doesn't feel like a good sign.

• 1:35:27Speaker 02

  No, no. I mean, what it does to me is it's affirmation that, you know what? What the Bible tells us is true. There is a heaven, there is a hell.

• 1:35:36Tucker Carlson?

  Every society ever has thought that.

• 1:35:39Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:35:40Tucker Carlson?

  Every society. And I think everyone intuitively knows that.

• 1:35:43Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:35:44Tucker Carlson?

  I've never had a near-death experience, but the one time I thought I was gonna die many years ago, I was in a plane crash, I was filled with sadness. I had no peace at all.

• 1:35:52Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:35:54Tucker Carlson?

  None, only regret.

• 1:35:56Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:35:57Tucker Carlson?

  So I did take that as an indication I should change the way I was living, and I did.

• 1:36:02Speaker 02

  Well, God, you said in your life.

• 1:36:03Tucker Carlson?

  Well, I felt that way, and certainly in retrospect, I think that.

• 1:36:06Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:36:07Tucker Carlson?

  But I remember thinking, wow, I'm gonna die. I was certain of it. And then I thought later, I thought that when people knew they were gonna die, they were filled with like... Peace and warmth and walk toward the light. That was not my experience at all. It was like, man, I can't believe I did a few things. Um, and I've really felt sad about it. So.

• 1:36:29Speaker 02

  Well, that's the reality.

• 1:36:31Tucker Carlson?

  Well, but I guess it's, yeah. Well, it was the reality that I experienced for sure, but I also think that it's what a blessing.

• 1:36:38Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 1:36:38Tucker Carlson?

  To have an opportunity to, um, you know, to, to, to turn back.

• 1:36:45Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:36:45Tucker Carlson?

  And change.

• 1:36:45Speaker 02

  That's the thing about these near death experiences that, um, you have another chance. Um, you don't have it in deathbed vision, but you're going to be revived and then you have a choice to make. Is that the road I continue to want to go down?

• 1:36:57Tucker Carlson?

  The first thing I did was quit drinking and then had a fourth child.

• 1:36:59Speaker 02

  Wow. It's awesome.

• 1:37:01Tucker Carlson?

  Yeah, it was. It was awesome. It was awesome. It was literally awesome. So, um, yes. So I, I think that there's something real there and it does seem like a crime of some kind to deprive people of that.

• 1:37:13Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:37:13Tucker Carlson?

  With drugs.

• 1:37:14Speaker 02

  I know.

• 1:37:15Tucker Carlson?

  If everyone experiences it, just like anything else, like maybe there's a reason.

• 1:37:19Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:37:20Tucker Carlson?

  It's not random.

• 1:37:21Speaker 02

  Maybe. You know, I'd encourage people who are watching or listening to this podcast, um, next time you have a big family get together with the cousins and the uncles and the aunts and everything, ask people, do we have any family stories about deathbed visions or near death experiences? I bet you you'll find, oh, Uncle Bob had that experience or Cousin Jim had that experience. It, I was having dinner with, uh, seven people in Oklahoma City and four of them, we've talked about this, four of them had relatives who had pre-death visions.

• 1:37:54Tucker Carlson?

  I'm not surprised.

• 1:37:55Speaker 02

  It's incredibly common.

• 1:37:56Tucker Carlson?

  I've, I've never asked that question at a dinner party, but I have asked, has anyone seen a ghost?

• 1:38:01Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:38:01Tucker Carlson?

  A hundred percent of the time, there's someone at the table who has.

• 1:38:03Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:38:04Tucker Carlson?

  A hundred percent.

• 1:38:05Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:38:05Tucker Carlson?

  What is that?

• 1:38:06Speaker 02

  Ghosts, I have a chapter on ghosts and psychics in my book. Um,

• 1:38:12Speaker 02

  The technical definition of a ghost is someone who dies, but refuses to go into the afterlife. Their spirit refuses to go into the next life. I don't see that in the Bible. Um, so I don't think that ghosts per se are from God. Um, I think most likely an apparition that we interpret as being ghosts is most likely demonic apparition.

• 1:38:36Tucker Carlson?

  I think people feel that.

• 1:38:38Speaker 02

  I, I think so.

• 1:38:39Tucker Carlson?

  Ghosts have a bad rep.

• 1:38:40Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 1:38:41Tucker Carlson?

  You know?

• 1:38:41Speaker 02

  Well, yeah.

• 1:38:42Tucker Carlson?

  No one, no one is summoning ghosts.

• 1:38:43Speaker 02

  It's not like Casper who's gonna bring you some flowers.

• 1:38:47Tucker Carlson?

  Generally, people are anti-ghost.

• 1:38:49Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 1:38:49Tucker Carlson?

  Um, ghost stories.

• 1:38:50Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 1:38:51Tucker Carlson?

  Yeah.

• 1:38:51Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 1:38:52Tucker Carlson?

  Ghosted, yeah, it's not, not a good connotation, so I don't think that surprises anyone.

• 1:38:57Speaker 02

  So I, I do talk about ghosts and, and, and I talk about psychics and the tricks that they use to convince people that they're more knowledgeable. Sorry?

• 1:39:05Tucker Carlson?

  Are you pro-psychic?

• 1:39:06Speaker 02

  I'm anti-psychic.

• 1:39:06Tucker Carlson?

  Yeah, I am too. Why are you anti-psychic?

• 1:39:09Speaker 02

  Um, because the Bible says, "Do not consult mediums, do not consult psychics." I mean, it's very clear, multiple places in scripture, "Do not do it."

• 1:39:18Tucker Carlson?

  Um, and... Oh, it, well, among the ancient Hebrews, that was a death penalty offense.

• 1:39:22Speaker 02

  Exactly, it was. And so you just, it's not something we want to mess with, and I think there's gotta be a reason for that. I think it because it opens the door to the demonic. Um, that you're trying to consult the dead. You're trying to, you're trying to find out something apart from what God might reveal through a psychic, through a medium who supposedly has a cultic, um, um, wherewithal and is able to take you down that pathway. It's dangerous. Um, and, um, I talk in the book about the tricks that they use to, I mean, there's things like cold readings and warm readings and hot readings, where people who want to fool you into thinking they know more about you than they do, will employ that and they think, "Oh, my gosh, this person knows all about me."

• 1:40:04Speaker 02

  No, they don't. There's just very clever people who are able to read certain things about you.

• 1:40:10Tucker Carlson?

  No, I mean, they're, of course, there's a lot of BS, gypsy tricks.

• 1:40:13Speaker 02

  But I'll tell you one case that's real.

• 1:40:15Tucker Carlson?

  But it's also true in the, in the Bible that, um, at least in my read of it, that, um... They're taken seriously.

• 1:40:23Speaker 02

  Well, there are cases-

• 1:40:25Tucker Carlson?

  That's why it's a death penalty offense, not because it's fake, because it's real.

• 1:40:28Speaker 02

  Because it can be real, and that's a good way to argue it. There is a case in contemporary times where President Carter was president, and a two-engine aircraft went down and crashed in Africa. And the United States government was trying to find it. I don't know why, but they wanted to find that aircraft. And they had satellites repositioned, looking for it. They could not find the wreckage of this airplane. And so, the Stansfield Turner, who was the head of the CIA, consulted a medium, a psychic in California. She went into a trance, and she gave the longitude and latitude of where to find the plane. They went, they reoriented the satellites, and boom!

• 1:41:11Speaker 02

  There was the wreckage of the plane, just as she had said. What do you do with that? That tells me she was in connection with something there. Now, if the Bible says, "Don't be connecting with psychics," it was probably demonic. And why would she do that? Because now she's got credibility. Now, the next time they want to know something, "Let's go to that woman in California that told us where that plane was." She seems to have these abilities to know the future, to know things that we don't know. And now she has credibility. I think that was a way for Satan to give her credibility, so that we'd be fooled into thinking into the future to take advantage of her psychic power.

• 1:41:47Tucker Carlson?

  Yeah, best not to play with that stuff.

• 1:41:49Speaker 02

  No, no. It's best to stay away from that.

• 1:41:51Tucker Carlson?

  So, contacting dead relatives through a medium, Ouija boards, all that stuff, scary, bad.

• 1:41:57Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:41:58Tucker Carlson?

  On the other hand, I mean, that's my position.

• 1:42:00Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:42:01Tucker Carlson?

  I'm sure it's yours.

• 1:42:02Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:42:02Tucker Carlson?

  I came to that position through experience, not just guessing. It's bad. However, I know a lot of decent, God-fearing people who have said, "Well, I really feel like I was contacted by a dead relative, a dead loved one."

• 1:42:15Speaker 02

  Yeah, that's an interesting- And I have a couple of cases I talk about in the book of that, that seemingly are corroborated. What do you do with that? Because-

• 1:42:26Tucker Carlson?

  How is that inconsistent with your theology?

• 1:42:29Speaker 02

  On the one hand, there are a couple of cases in Scripture where the dead have come back like that. Elijah came back, the-

• 1:42:39Speaker 02

  Transfiguration.

• 1:42:40Tucker Carlson?

  Yeah.

• 1:42:40Speaker 02

  Um, so there's an example of a dead person coming back. There's the other example of, um, in the Old Testament of a, uh, going to a medium and a dead person coming back, not because of the power of the medium, because she was surprised it happened, but through the power of God, he allowed that dead person to come back. So there are a couple of perhaps precedents in scripture of dead people coming back. Um, the rea- one of the reasons I'm skeptical is because when Jesus was talking about in Luke 16, about the rich man who died and the beggar who died, uh, he talked about a gulf between the living and the dead. Um, that concerns me. Um, uh, so that raises some

• 1:43:24Speaker 02

  questions in my mind. I think the transfiguration and the incident with what's called the medium of Endor in the Old Testament may be one-offs. And those were unusual circumstances. So I'm Tucker, I don't, I'm not quite sure what to do with it because I talk about a couple of cases in the book where a dead relative returns, um, and a person talks to that relative and then they disappear and then their, their child comes in, eight year old child says, I just saw grandpa. I just talked to him. So he experienced the same vision. Well, that's pretty weird.

• 1:44:02Tucker Carlson?

  Yeah.

• 1:44:02Speaker 02

  Um, is that corroboration and so forth? Well, here's my concern. So many times the people have contact with these dead people, these are people that lived ungodly lives. And yet they say, everything's fine. I'm fine. Everything's good. Just take care of the family. Tell everybody I love them. I'm good. Don't worry about me. That's the general message people get. Well, what does that say to someone who is thinking about, what do I need to do to live a life that will bring me to heaven and to God? Well, Uncle Tom came and told me he's fine. He didn't, he was a, he was a adulterer and a, he never came to faith in Jesus. He's a, you know, bad guy. And yet he says he's fine in the

• 1:44:44Speaker 02

  afterlife. Wouldn't that be something that a demon might want to imitate, uh, to send a false message? I think maybe. So I guess I'm giving you two answers. One is there is some biblical precedent for a dead coming back, but I think they may be one offs. I'm not sure. I think there'd be a good motive for Satan to counterfeit that. You know, Satan can appear as an angel of light as a counterfeit. He can fool us into thinking he's something he's not. Would that be to his advantage to do, to mislead people? I think it could be. So I'm not quite sure where I'm at.

• 1:45:27Tucker Carlson?

  Are UFOs what we call UFOs spiritual entities?

• 1:45:30Speaker 02

  I don't know. I didn't get into UFOs in the book. It's a fascinating topic. Maybe I'll do another book on that. But so I didn't research it thoroughly. Having said that, though,

• 1:45:42Speaker 02

  it would not be an affront to my faith if indeed we found intelligent life elsewhere in the universe. The Bible doesn't say that we are unique in that.

• 1:45:51Tucker Carlson?

  No, it doesn't. But, but I wonder.

• 1:45:54Speaker 02

  Could they be spiritual is the question?

• 1:45:56Tucker Carlson?

  Yeah.

• 1:45:56Speaker 02

  Yeah, it could be. It could be, yes. Is it? I don't know. I'm just not as knowledgeable on that to be able to give a strong opinion.

• 1:46:07Tucker Carlson?

  Last question. Miracles.

• 1:46:09Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:46:11Tucker Carlson?

  What is a miracle?

• 1:46:12Speaker 02

  A miracle is an event brought about by the power of God that is a temporary exception to the ordinary course of nature for the purpose of showing that God has acted in history. So in other words, a lot of people skeptics.

• 1:46:25Tucker Carlson?

  Nice definition.

• 1:46:26Speaker 02

  Thank you. That's from Robert Pertil, who was a philosopher. He, I thought that was the best definition I'd heard. Here's the problem. A lot of skeptics will say, I don't believe in miracles because you can't violate the laws of nature. So by definition, a miracle's impossible.

• 1:46:42Tucker Carlson?

  We haven't even settled on the laws of nature. They're so dumb.

• 1:46:45Speaker 02

  Well, here's how I answer it.

• 1:46:47Tucker Carlson?

  Like the laws of nature, really? Science every day challenges the laws of nature.

• 1:46:52Speaker 02

  Especially with quantum physics and everything.

• 1:46:54Tucker Carlson?

  Exactly.

• 1:46:55Speaker 02

  But I say, look, I have this glass of water here. If I were to drop it, the law of gravity would say it would hit the floor.

• 1:47:01Tucker Carlson?

  Yeah.

• 1:47:02Speaker 02

  But if I drop it and you reached in and grabbed it before it hit the floor, you're not violating the law of gravity. You're not overturning the law of gravity. You're just intervening. And that's what a miracle is, is God intervening temporarily into his creation. He brought it about. So of course he could intervene. And. Man.

• 1:47:22Tucker Carlson?

  But again, our understanding of nature and its laws changes every day.

• 1:47:28Speaker 02

  And it's so shallow. It's so shallow, what we know.

• 1:47:30Tucker Carlson?

  Yeah, but I mean, our, I mean, our view of what is natural is different now from what it was five years ago.

• 1:47:38Speaker 02

  Yeah, and what it'll be five years from now.

• 1:47:41Tucker Carlson?

  Exactly. Yeah. So that's just the silliness and the shallowness of claims like that kind of shocked me.

• 1:47:47Speaker 02

  It does.

• 1:47:48Tucker Carlson?

  So miracles, um, but you know, the extent we can know, like, this is so unusual, like, this couldn't have happened accidentally.

• 1:47:55Speaker 02

  Can I give you an example?

• 1:47:56Tucker Carlson?

  Yeah, please do.

• 1:47:57Speaker 02

  And this one I personally investigated and has been widely documented. A woman named Barbara, she was diagnosed at the Mayo Clinic, so we got all those records with multiple sclerosis as a teenager, and it was progressive. She started, she got worse very quickly.

• 1:48:13Tucker Carlson?

  Yeah.

• 1:48:14Speaker 02

  So she just got worse and worse and worse. Multiple hospitalizations to the point where the doctor said, look, and her parents said, look, next time she gets pneumonia, which she would get on a regular basis, we're just gonna let her die.

• 1:48:27Tucker Carlson?

  Let her go, yeah.

• 1:48:28Speaker 02

  Because we're just postponing the inevitable. So here she is on her deathbed. She hadn't walked in seven years, so her muscles had atrophied. Her fingers were, she was curled up like a pretzel. Her fingers were touching her wrists. Um, her feet were permanently extended. Uh, her diaphragm was, um, one diaphragm was paralyzed, so her one lung was collapsed. The other lung was at half full. She had a tube in her throat that went to oxygen canisters in the garage. She was in hospice at home, so she could breathe. So she got a tube in her throat. She, um, had lost her, uh, her urination and bowels and control of those. She'd lost her eyesight, so all she saw was gray shapes. Um, and, and

• 1:49:11Speaker 02

  she's on her deathbed. She's dying. Well, some people said, wait a minute, um, let's call WNBI, the Christian radio station at the Moody Bible Institute in Chicago, and ask people on the radio show to pray for poor Barbara. She's dying. So they did. Well, we documented that at least 450 people began praying for Barbara, because they wrote letters to Barbara, saying, I'm praying for you, and to encourage her. So here we are in Pentecost Sunday, 1981. She is in her bedroom, and her aunt and two girlfriends are reading her some of these encouraging letters from people praying for her. And from the corner of the room, where nobody was, she heard the voice of God. And the voice said, "My child, get up and walk."

• 1:49:54Speaker 02

  Well, she hadn't walked in seven years. She had no muscle tone in her legs. She, she pulled out the tube so she could talk and she said, "I don't know what you're gonna think of this, but God just told me to get up and walk. Go find my parents. I want them to be here." So they ran out, but she couldn't wait. She jumped out of bed. She told me, she said, "Lee, the first thing I noticed, my feet were flat on the floor. And they hadn't been flat for years. They've been rigidly extended, but they were flat on the floor. Second thing I noticed, my hands had opened up like flowers. And they hadn't opened up in years." And then she said, "The third thing I noticed, I could see." I said, "She said, "Wouldn't you think that'd be the first thing I noticed? It was actually the third thing I noticed."

• 1:50:36Speaker 02

  She was instantaneously completely healed of multiple sclerosis. Her mother came running in, fell to her knees and grabbed her calves and said, "Your muscle tone has come back." It was Pentecost Sunday. There was a service at their church, Wheaton Wesleyan Church. They went, they decided to go and thank God that she was fine. She's dancing, literally dancing around the house with her father. So they go to church. They're in the back. The pastor gets up and says, "Does anybody have any announcements?"

• 1:51:06Speaker 02

  Barbara comes walking down.

• 1:51:07Tucker Carlson?

  That's a good announcement.

• 1:51:08Speaker 02

  Yeah, that's a good announcement. Barbara comes walking down the center aisle. People freaked out because they haven't seen her except in a wheelchair for seven years. They began singing spontaneously, "Amazing grace, I once was blind and now I see." Totally healed. She goes the next day to her doctor, one of her doctors. He said later, he said, "I saw her walking down the hallway toward my office. My first thought was, oh, she died and that's a ghost." He said, "This is medically impossible." And it is medically impossible. She was instantaneously totally healed of multiple sclerosis. She ended up marrying a pastor that had a little Wesleyan church in Fredericksburg, Virginia. And I got to know her, sweetest woman.

• 1:51:49Tucker Carlson?

  Is she still alive?

• 1:51:50Speaker 02

  She just recently, they, this happened 1981. Lived perfectly healthy all these years. She just died in Florida. They just retired just a few months ago. Uh, so she's fine.

• 1:52:00Tucker Carlson?

  That's incredible.

• 1:52:01Speaker 02

  Completely healed and.

• 1:52:02Tucker Carlson?

  So what the, okay, that's a.

• 1:52:04Speaker 02

  What do you do with that? What do you do with that?

• 1:52:07Tucker Carlson?

  Well, that's a challenge to like the most basic understanding of everything.

• 1:52:10Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 1:52:10Tucker Carlson?

  Right?

• 1:52:11Speaker 02

  Yep.

• 1:52:12Tucker Carlson?

  So, um, if she's on her deathbed from MS,

• 1:52:16Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:52:16Tucker Carlson?

  which is a well-studied

• 1:52:18Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 1:52:18Tucker Carlson?

  disease, um, you know, like you would think that, you know, Harvard Medical School would just like cease operations until they figured out what that was.

• 1:52:28Speaker 02

  I know. You know, I mentioned to my doctor, I said, I told him the story. He said, it'd be interesting to know, because there's plaque that develops in the brain in multiple sclerosis. It'd be interesting to know, did that plaque disappear? And I said, which is the greater miracle? That the plaque would disappear, or that God would totally heal her

• 1:52:47Tucker Carlson?

  Exactly.

• 1:52:47Speaker 02

  with the plaque still there? I don't know which a greater miracle would be.

• 1:52:50Tucker Carlson?

  I guess my question is, was, how could we in a, in an advanced country allow a case like that?

• 1:52:56Speaker 02

  To go unnoticed?

• 1:52:57Tucker Carlson?

  And unstudied?

• 1:52:58Speaker 02

  I know. It was the next day, it was in the Chicago Tribune, which most newspapers don't cover stuff like that. I mean, it's too speculative.

• 1:53:07Tucker Carlson?

  But did she get, yeah, but that's not speculative.

• 1:53:09Speaker 02

  No.

• 1:53:09Tucker Carlson?

  I mean, so she had a team of physicians saying it's time for her to go, and then she's dancing

• 1:53:14Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:53:14Tucker Carlson?

  and singing Amazing Grace and honoring a pastor. So like, but were doctors calling in to say, I want to study this case?

• 1:53:20Speaker 02

  There are two doctors who wrote books about it.

• 1:53:22Tucker Carlson?

  Wrote books about it?

• 1:53:22Speaker 02

  Yeah. Well, they, they wrote books, and in the books, they talked about her case. Yes. So two of her physicians actually wrote about it in their books.

• 1:53:30Tucker Carlson?

  That's incredible.

• 1:53:31Speaker 02

  I know. I know. And it's not the only one. I don't, we don't have much time. Give you a real quick one.

• 1:53:36Tucker Carlson?

  Yeah.

• 1:53:36Speaker 02

  There's a kid who was born, little baby, kept vomiting, couldn't keep down food, kept vomiting, vomiting. And they realized this baby has what's called gastroparesis, which is a paralysis of the stomach. It's an incurable condition. It happens from time to time. You can't, you can't live that way.

• 1:53:53Tucker Carlson?

  No.

• 1:53:53Speaker 02

  Um, so they operated and they put tubes in so that the food would go directly into the small intestine. I don't know if it went through the stomach that was paralyzed or whatever, but that way it's able, he was able to live. And he lived that way until, for 15 years, 16 years. He lived that way. There were restrictions on what he could eat. It was uncomfortable, but at least he was alive, right? They bring him one day to a church, and they ask the pastor, would you pray for him? Pastor puts his hand on his shoulder, begins to pray, and the kid said later, "I felt an electric shock go through me," at the time he was praying. And he was instantly healed of gastroparesis.

• 1:54:35Speaker 02

  There has never been a documented case of anyone ever healed of gastroparesis, a paralyzed stomach. He was totally normal. They went in, they took the tubes out, and today he's totally healthy. He's a business guy, doing great. I just emailed with him the other day. That, again, this was researched by multiple medical researchers and published as a case study in a medical journal. And in the medical journal, it's probably like, "Here's what happened."

• 1:55:08Tucker Carlson?

  So, that's an incredible story. The girl being cured of MS is an incredible story. Everything you've said is amazing. But so many of the things you've said are also instantly recognizable

• 1:55:21Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:55:22Tucker Carlson?

  to everyone listening, whatever their religious faith or lack of religious faith, as things that do happen, actually. It's real. We all know

• 1:55:29Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:55:29Tucker Carlson?

  that there are things that happen to us and people we know well and love that are outside the ability of science to explain.

• 1:55:38Speaker 02

  God is still active.

• 1:55:39Tucker Carlson?

  Supernatural.

• 1:55:39Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:55:40Tucker Carlson?

  So my final question to you, Lee Strobel, and this has been amazing, thank you.

• 1:55:44Speaker 02

  Oh, my pleasure.

• 1:55:44Tucker Carlson?

  Is, why do we keep ignoring it?

• 1:55:47Speaker 02

  Yeah. I think it goes back to what I said earlier. I think we're embarrassed sometimes by the supernatural, that we're gonna think, people are gonna think we're nuts.

• 1:55:57Tucker Carlson?

  But if that's real, and it clearly is real, then, like, it puts everything else in a perspective.

• 1:56:05Speaker 02

  Yeah. And when you take it seriously, and when you look at it like I did...

• 1:56:09Tucker Carlson?

  How could you not take it seriously?

• 1:56:10Speaker 02

  Well, I agree.

• 1:56:11Tucker Carlson?

  If you grow up in a culture that tells you none of it's real, and yet it's super obvious that it is, super obvious

• 1:56:17Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:56:17Tucker Carlson?

  that it's real, in some most general sense.

• 1:56:20Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 1:56:21Tucker Carlson?

  The supernatural is real.

• 1:56:22Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:56:22Tucker Carlson?

  Sorry. Then why don't people talk about it all the time?

• 1:56:26Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah. I think the fact that I've been a Christian since November the 8th of 1981, and I've never heard a sermon on the topic of angels in my life, tells you something. I think, I, I, I think we shy away because we, we, we want to be accepted as normal.

• 1:56:45Speaker 02

  I, I, I don't know why else.

• 1:56:47Tucker Carlson?

  Why would you get out of bed on Sunday to sit in a church where they're like pretending that nothing they say is true?

• 1:56:54Speaker 02

  It's, it's, it's a good point. If we believe, if we-

• 1:56:57Tucker Carlson?

  If it's not supernatural, like, why are you bothering?

• 1:56:59Speaker 02

  Exactly. If you believe in Jesus, you gotta believe in angels. You gotta believe in demons. You gotta believe in Satan. You gotta believe in heaven. You gotta believe in hell. Cause if you believe in Jesus, he taught on all those things. So, my goodness, how could you not? I agree with you. How could you not?

• 1:57:12Tucker Carlson?

  Yeah. I mean, go on, move on to something else.

• 1:57:14Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:57:15Tucker Carlson?

  Go play tennis or something.

• 1:57:16Speaker 02

  And if, if 40% of Americans have had an experience that they can only attribute to a miracle of God, that means the other 60%, probably no one of those 40%, right? And, oh, my brother had this experience. My cousin had, and we kind of say, what do we do with that? And, and I think what we ought to do is look for that which is, is corroborated and which is consistent with what we trust to be true, which for me are the Christian scriptures.

• 1:57:44Tucker Carlson?

  If you just fight against distraction.

• 1:57:48Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:57:49Tucker Carlson?

  Consistently for just a day or two, like, I'm not going to be distracted. I'm just going to notice. That's it. That's all you do is just notice. I'm just going to notice stuff.

• 1:57:57Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:57:58Tucker Carlson?

  If you do that as an exercise, literally for 48 hours, you will experience the supernatural.

• 1:58:04Speaker 02

  I think you're right.

• 1:58:05Tucker Carlson?

  It's hard to do that.

• 1:58:06Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:58:06Tucker Carlson?

  Least trouble. Thank you.

• 1:58:07Speaker 02

  Hey, I enjoyed it.

• 1:58:08Tucker Carlson?

  Wonderful.

• 1:58:08Speaker 02

  Great to, great to meet you.

• 1:58:10Tucker Carlson?

  Thank you.

• 1:58:15Tucker Carlson?

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